Manitoba Hansard — 25 March 2014 (Sitting 35B, 40th Legislature, 3rd Session)

40-3-35b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Fortieth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Daryl Reid Speaker Vol. LXVI No. 35B - 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, March 25, 2014 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Fortieth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy St. Vital NDP ALLUM, James, Hon. Fort Garry-Riverview NDP ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley NDP ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson NDP BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli NDP BLADY, Sharon, Hon. Kirkfield Park NDP BRAUN, Erna, Hon. Rossmere NDP BRIESE, Stuart Agassiz PC CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East NDP CHIEF, Kevin, Hon. Point Douglas NDP CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan NDP CROTHERS, Deanne St.

James NDP CULLEN, Cliff Spruce Woods PC DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk NDP DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood PC EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne Lac du Bonnet PC FRIESEN, Cameron Morden-Winkler PC GAUDREAU, Dave St. Norbert NDP GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Liberal GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach PC GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC HOWARD, Jennifer, Hon. Fort Rouge NDP IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Richmond NDP JHA, Bidhu Radisson NDP KOSTYSHYN, Ron, Hon. Swan River NDP LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. Dawson Trail NDP MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Flor, Hon.

Logan NDP MARCELINO, Ted Tyndall Park NDP MARTIN, Shannon Morris PC MELNICK, Christine Riel Ind. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East PC NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake NDP OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River NDP PALLISTER, Brian Fort Whyte PC PEDERSEN, Blaine Midland PC PETTERSEN, Clarence Flin Flon NDP PIWNIUK, Doyle Arthur-Virden PC REID, Daryl, Hon. Transcona NDP ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Kewatinook NDP RONDEAU, Jim Assiniboia NDP ROWAT, Leanne Riding Mountain PC SARAN, Mohinder The Maples NDP SCHULER, Ron St. Paul PC SELBY, Erin, Hon. Southdale NDP SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Verendrye PC STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo PC STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin NDP SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto NDP WHITEHEAD, Frank The Pas NDP WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WIGHT, Melanie Burrows NDP WISHART, Ian Portage la Prairie PC

1381 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, March 25, 2014 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Mr. Speaker: Good afternoon, everyone. Please be seated. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Mr. Speaker: Introduction of bills? PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: We'll move on to petitions. Beausejour District Hospital– Weekend and Holiday Physician Availability Mr. Wayne Ewasko (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And these are the reasons for this petition:

(1) The Beausejour District Hospital is a 30 -bed, acute-care facility that serves the communities of Beausejour and Brokenhead.

(2) The hospital and the primary-care centre have had no doctor available on weekends and holidays for many months, jeopardizing the health and livelihoods of those in the Interlake -Eastern Regional Health Authority region.

(3) During the 2011 election, the provincial government promised to provide every Manitoban with access to a family doctor by 2015.

(4) This promise is far from being realized, and Manitobans are witnessing many emergency rooms limiting services or closing temporarily, with the majority of these reductions taking place in rural Manitoba.

(5) According to the Health Council of Canada, only 25 per cent of doctors in Manitoba reported that their patients had access to care on evenings and weekends. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government and the Minister of Health to ensure that the Beausejour District Hospital and primary -care centre have a primary-care physician available on weekends and holidays to better provide area residents with this essential service. This petition is signed by T. Marciwkow, M. Marciwkow, D. Hellett and many, many more fine Manitobans, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker: In keeping with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to have been received by the House. Further petitions? Hydro Capital Development–NFAT Review Mr. Blaine Pedersen (Midland): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition: Manitoba Hydro was mandated by the provincial government to commence a $21- billion capital development plan to service uncertain electricity export markets.

In the last five years, competition from alternative energy sources is decreasing the price and demand for Manitoba's hydroelectricity and causing the financial viability of this capital plan to be questioned. The $21- billion ca pital plan requires Manitoba Hydro to increase domestic electricity rates by up to 4 per cent annually for the next 20 years and possibly more if export opportunities fail to materialize.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge that the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro create a complete and transparent needs-for-and-alternatives-to review of Manitoba Hydro's total capital development plan to ensure the financial viability of Manitoba Hydro. And this petition is signed by T. Schindel, C. Pitura, Y. Lapointe and many more fine Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: Any further petitions? Seeing none, we'll move on to committee reports?

1382 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 25, 2014 TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Erin Selby (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to table the 2014 -2015 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for Manitoba Health, Healthy Living and Seniors. Mr. Speaker: Any further tabling of reports? Ministerial statements? ORAL QUESTIONS Mr. Speaker: There are no guests at the present time to introduce, so we'll proceed directly to oral questions. Statistics Canada Census Statistics Federal Transfer Payments Mr.

Brian Pallister (Leader of the Official Opposition): Well, as we've listened to this NDP government's tired refrain about needing more money from Ottawa and its story about missing Manitobans, it raises a powerful sense of déjà vu. It's eerily familiar. Which other government across this great country would embarrass itself and complain and question the integrity of an internationally renowned statistical agency and pursue a beggar -thy-neighbour approach to governing? And the answer is –which other government? –the NDP government, the NDP in 2002.

Actually, they said in March 13th, 2002, they said StatsCan got it wrong. They said the final census tally missed 19,000 people that time, Mr. Speaker. And then he went further and said, an accurate count is important to maximize federal transfers. Who said that? The Finance minister of the day, the Premier today. So is the reason that this government is so good at waving that tin cup around and begging for more money that they've been doing it for 14 years? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, when our Chief Statistician raises an issue about a statistical procedure that deletes 18,000 people from Manitoba and that's going to cost us a hundred million dollars a year and a half a billion dollars over the next five years, we take that matter seriously. We take that matter seriously because we think those 18,000 people who we know are in Manitoba deserve services. They deserve access to health care, education, social services, labour market supports. Those services are important to those Manitobans. We want them to be treated equitably like everybody else across this great country. Mr.

Pallister: This isn't a new story; it's a sequel. It's Tin Cup,

part 2. The NDP needs more money to spend. It's Ottawa's fault. StatsCan can't count. Why not come up with a new line? Even panhandlers change thei r signs once in a while, Mr. Speaker. This is the same story this government tried on the people of Manitoba and of Canada in 2002. Now, still, 18,000 people missing, Mr. Speaker. Isn't it time for this government take this problem seriously? Start organizing a search party. Find these people. Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, it's never a surprise when the Leader of the Opposition won't stand up for Manitobans.

Whenever there's an issue, he always sides–he always sides –with his federal counterparts; whether it 's Stats Canada, whether it's the federal government, he always stands with Ottawa. Mr. Speaker, w e stand with Manitobans. Those 18,000 Manitobans, they deserve the same treatment as everybody else across this country. Only the Leader of the Opposition would abandon supporting Manitobans on getting their share of proper services in this province of Manitoba. Mr. Pallister: What we'll do is we'll stand with hard-working Manitobans who don't believe in governments begging for them.

It's the same tired government, which has the same tired lines. This is the same worn -out blame placing and even the same number of missing people. This government lacks originality in its tin-cup approach. Maybe these people aren't missing at all. Maybe these great people decided to go to another jurisdiction that's better governed than this one. Maybe they decided that they wanted a better future somewhere away from this NDP government and its tired approach to begging. The reality is that this Premier is confusing banging a tin cup with real leadership. Won't he admit that today? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, when it comes to the band constable program being cancelled by the federal government, Leader of the Opposition is completely silent.

March 25, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1383 When it comes to 18,000 Manitobans being deleted from the StatsCan count in Manitoba, the Leader of the Opposition, he stands up for Stats Canada, he doesn't stand up for Manitobans. When it comes to a drug treatment program being cancelled in Manitoba, Leader of the Opposition is completely absent, missing in action. When it comes to cancelling programs for the homeless, the project Chez Soi program, Leader of the Opposition nowhere to be found.

On every single issue where Manitobans are– risks or needs are at stake, when their se rvices are at stake, the Leader of the Opposition squarely still living in Ottawa. It's time he came home and stood up for Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a new question. Canada-Manitoba Immigration Agreement Resolution Civil Service Involvement Mr. Brian Pallister (Leader of the Official Opposition): I'm home. I'm with these folks. We're standing up for Manitobans, Mr. Speaker.

This is a government that takes us to court so they can raise taxes illegally and take away the right of Manitobans to vote. That's a funny way to stand up for the rights of Manitobans. * (13:40) How about the member for Riel (Ms. Melnick)? The auditor –he didn't stand up for the member for Riel either. The Auditor General remarked that ethics is a serious concern. But how about the rot in this government? Is that what's causing the ethics concern w ithin the civil service? Perhaps it is.

Because this Premier found out that there was wrongdoing, he says, in the summer of 2012, and he did nothing about it for 15 months. Now, the Auditor General says civil servants that she surveyed who see wrongdoing, two thirds of them would be encouraged to repeat that wrongdoing if there were no consequences for the wrongdoing. Why were there no consequences for the wrongdoing for 15 months? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Why are there no consequences for vote ri gging 18 years later when the Leader of the Opposition sat at the Cabinet table and decided to try and rig the 2000–the 1995 election, Mr. Speaker?

Why are there no consequences when the Leader of the Opposition sat around the Cabinet table and reversed his position and privatized the telephone system? No consequences for that, maybe only benefits to the Leader of the Opposition. Who knows? The reality is this. When it comes to consequences, we now have a whistle -blower legislation in this province, n ever existed when members opposite were in government. We now have ethical guidelines for public servants in Manitoba, never existed when the members opposite were in government, Mr. Speaker.

And I believe and I know that our public servants act with integrity. Overwhelmingly, they come to work every single day –every single day –to work hard for Manitobans to make sure Manitobans get services. Mr. Speaker, only the member opposite has no trust and no confidence in the public service of Manitoba. Mr. Pallister: I have no trust in that Premier and his colleagues, Mr. Speaker, that's pretty clear. He'll trumpet his love for the civil service, but he hides behind civil servants when he can place blame on them instead of accepting responsibility for his own a ctions.

I asked him last week in Estimates if the clerk of the Executive Council, the senior civil servant of the Province of Manitoba, had become aware or had investigated the allegation that a senior civil servant was engaged in a partisan activity, and the Premier of Manitoba claimed that the clerk found out when he did. Now, that means that the rot has permeated the senior levels of the civil service, Mr. Speaker. And this former clerk of the Executive Council didn't care enough to stand up for the ethical conduct of his own senior people? I find that hard to believe.

Why should civil servants feel that the example that's being set by this government is anything but a bad example is beyond me. I want to ask the Premier how he feels that ignore–how he feels about setting an example that ignores the ethical problems at the senior –most senior level of his own government. How does he feel about that? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, when the leader opposite was in government, the chair –the senior public official for Treasury Board was involved in a vote rigging. The Leader of the Opposition, what did he

1384 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 25, 2014 do at that time? Absolutely nothing. What has he done since? Absolutely nothing. What has he done today? Absolutely nothing. Has he ever taken responsibility for it? Never would he do that. Never takes responsibility, never apologizes, never even acknowledges that it was a problem. We now have whistle -blowing legislation in Manitoba that protects people in terms of anonymity, protects people in terms of reprisal s, gives them recourse.

If they're not satisfied with the concern that they raise within their department, they have the right to go directly to the Ombudsman. Some of the best legislation in the country, members opposite opposed it every step of the way. Mr. Pallister: That premier in the '90s recognized the problem when he saw it and called an official inquiry. This Premier hid in his office for a year and a half, hid in his office and ignored the problem for a year plus. Half the civil servants the A uditor General surveyed, Mr.

Speaker, said that they would not report wrongdoing if they saw it because they'd be afraid of retaliation. Now, the member for Riel (Ms. Melnick) remembered nothing for a few months, but, boy, when she remembered that the Prem ier's office was involved, then she had retaliation, only then. Now, that's the example that the Premier wants to set. Is he surprised at these numbers, or does he think these numbers should probably be higher? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, when we came int o office, there was no ethical guidelines for public service after 11 years. They had 11 years to do something about it.

When we came into office, we had an Auditor General's report where a senior public servant was involved in land transactions with the members of his family in the department of what at the time was Conservation. We had to clean that problem up. And then when we did, we brought in legislation for whistle -blowing in the province of Manitoba, some of the best legislation in the country. A nd our commitment to the public services is to give them the opportunity to make sure they can build their public services in Manitoba, excellent public services in Manitoba.

And if they see any issues that need to be addressed, they have the ability to ra ise that anonymously without fear of reprisal either directly through their departments with their immediate supervisors or by going directly to the Ombudsman. Some of the best legislation in the country, and I only wish that members opposite hadn't done everything they could do to obstruct that legislation. STARS Helicopter Service Contract Tendering Process Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Well, they may have a code, Mr. Speaker, but they sure don't have any ethics.

The Minister for Jobs and the Economy is guilty of breaking the law again. She entered into an untendered contract for $159 million with STARS to provide helicopter emergency medical services two years ago when she was Minister of Health. The minister deliberately circumvented the process and broke the rules of The Government Purchases Act, the General Manual of Administration and the government's Procurement Administration Manual. In short, she broke the law.

When asked about this untendered contract two years ago in Estimates, she replied, and I quote, "it wasn't a difficult decision for me." So it wasn't a difficult decision for her to break the law of this province? Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Jobs and the Economy): I thank the member for the question. I do want to reiterate what the Minister of Health (Ms. Selby) has said and what I have said in the past, that at the time that we were making a decision about going forward with a helicopter ambulance, we had the opportunity to offer uninterrupted service on the heels of the flood.

There are provisions in the procurement policy to act in the public interest in times where public safety can be compromised. We used those provisions, Mr. Speaker. We knew that it was something that we would have to invest in heavily but work over time to drive down the cost. We chose saving the lives of Manitoba families, and they would never commit to that. Mrs. Stefanson: She chose to break the law. The Minister for Jobs and the Economy likes to play fast and loose with the laws of our province. She was guilty of breaking The Elections Finances Act when she toured a health facility during the last election.

March 25, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1385 Now we have learned from the AG's report that she is guilty of breaking The Government Purchases Act by deliberately circumventing the law for tendering the $159-million STARS contract. Clearly, this minister either doesn't understand the law or she simply doesn't care about it. Which is it? Ms. Oswald: The Auditor General has made very important recommendations on the issue of procurement and tendering. Mr.

Speaker, we take those recommendations very seriously, and we'll work forward issues that pertain to my current department, issues that pertain to the Health Department and across government. They're important recommendations, and we're going to continue to move forward to ensure that we have tendering processes at –in the highest possible regard. I would just suggest to the member opposite that it's a little bit ironic that she would stand and talk about ethics while she's surrounded by people that rigged an election. Mrs.

Stefanson: Not only is this minister guilty of breaking The Elections Finances Act, of breaking The Government Purchases Act, of breaking the rules set ou t in the General Manual of Administration and Procurement Administration Manual, but she has also been found guilty of breaking the finance administration act by not reporting the untendered STARS contract to the Minister of Finance. The AG's report says, and I quote, "the Minister of Health was responsible for providing the contract information to the Minister of Finance," end quote. But according to the Department of Health, that never happened.

So, once again, the minister broke the law. Why is it so difficult for this minister to simply follow the law? Or is it, as she says, it's not a difficult decision for her to make at all because it's become rather customary for her to break the law? Ms. Oswald: Any time that the member opposite wants to get up and have a conversation about who cares about saving lives in Manitoba and who doesn't, I'd be happy to do that.

When faced with the opportunity to continue uninterrupted service from STARS that had 25 years of exemplary service, there are provisions in the procurement protocol to, when it's in the public interest, to enter and to win a contract. We did that. When offered the opportunity to fund oral cancer drugs, we took that opportunity. The members opposite declined. And when the members opposite were asked to save the lives of cancer patients when they were in office by sending them to the States in order to get that life -saving service, they denied it because they said it was not pragmatic.

I will stand proudly on my– * (13:50) Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The minister's time has expired. STARS Helicopter Service Feasibility Study Report Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Those are rich comments coming from a minister of Health that ignored a man in an emergency for 34 hours while he died, Brian Sinclair. Mr. Speaker, from taxicab medicine to a scathing auditor's report by this NDP and their gross mismanagement, this Minister of Health today doesn't seem to get it. A 2009 feasibility study recommended the government develop a detailed plan for a provincial helicopter program.

That 2009 study said that 35 to 50 lives could be saved annually. The auditor said that that report was never implemented, that it was shelved. I'd like to ask the Minister of Health to tell us why her government didn 't act immediately on that 2009 report if they were so concerned about patient safety. Hon. Erin Selby (Minister of Health): Our focus is always on providing the best patient care. We know that's what matters for Manitoba families as well. We saw that wh en STARS came in in 2009 and 2011 providing help to us during the floods, they did an excellent service, Mr.

Speaker, and we made a decision to maintain this life -saving service. We knew they were the only helicopter ambulance service that could provide this at the time, and we know that during the time when we started working with STARS to the time that the contract was signed, they served over a hundred patients.

1386 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 25, 2014 Mr. Speaker, I would wonder, though, when they were getting advice from Connie Curran to fire a thousand nurses, did they tender that contract? Mrs. Driedger: The Minister of Health needs to find some new communicators, but those lines are not working. Mr. Speaker, that report also indicated that, besides saving lives, the helicopter EMS program envisioned at that time would have only cost $5 million a year, not $12 million. So the NDP shelved that report and waited three more years for a more expensive option to come along.

So I'd like to ask the Minister of Health to tell us: How many more long-term-care beds could have been built if they had acted sooner and shopped smarter? Ms. Selby : Well, first of all, I can tell you we are building long-term-care beds. We didn't put a freeze on health- care spending. Second, Mr. Speaker, I didn't quite hear whether or not Connie Curran's contract had been tendered. Maybe that's something the member should look into. Mr. Speaker, in June 2011, we announced that it was our intention to enter a long- term contract with STARS.

During the 2011 election, the y promised to follow through on that commitment. Let me be very clear. The only commitment to follow through on with regards to air ambulance was our commitment with STARS for a long- term contract. They fully endorsed our support then. They fully endorse d our approach right down to the red helicopter on their campaign literature. Mrs. Driedger: The Minister of Health doesn't seem to understand that the auditor's report that was put forward was scathing. It was absolutely scathing and it pointed to gross m ismanagement by this NDP government. She is not taking this seriously.

And, Mr. Speaker, based on some comments in the auditor's report, I would like to ask the Minister of Health today if she will provide to me after question period that 2009 report call ed Manitoba Emergency Medical Services Rotor Wing Feasibility Project. Will she provide that to me today? Ms. Selby : As I said, our focus is always on providing the best patient care, and when we saw what STARS did during the floods, we thought it was important to continue this life-saving contract. Although, you know, Mr.

Speaker, I can tell you that the Conservatives in 1995 signed a $100-million, five -year master agreement with SmartHealth to form an information network. They were the sole supplier to the Health Department, and, of course, the government was –left itself vulnerable because they were billing for unapproved works. Within a couple of years, they had accrued almost $15 million in unapproved liabilities that went to the provincial government under their watch. They wasted millions of dollars, Mr. Speaker. They wasted $15 million on that SmartHealth project.

They donated to the Tories, though, I noticed, SmartHealth, in the failed 1990 bid. We cancelled the project when we came in and saved $3 million. Fortune Minerals Plant Government Relations Mr. Cliff Cullen ( Spruce Woods ): Last week I asked the government about their inability to land a hundred jobs –or that's, of course, 500, NDP math– private sector jobs in the mineral resource sector. As always, it was apparently not the NDP's fault that they couldn't bring those jobs to Manitoba. In fact, the minister even took a shot at the CEO of that company, actually accusing him of lying. Mr.

Speaker, why would a company want to do business in Manitoba with that type of an approach coming from a minister of the Crown? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Mineral Resources): Mr. Speaker, I think that one of the things that are apparent to anyone that watches question period is the way that members manipulate their questions and leave out little subsections and leave out little things, and that's why we generally ask them to table the information they're stating from.

The member was talking from a newspaper article, and he indicated so many inaccuracies from that newspaper article, because we went back and checked with the department and, in fact, what he stated was inaccurate. And I indicated to the member that that information was inaccurate. It was inaccurate then, and like so much the Conse rvatives say–they say so many things, so much is inaccurate, that you can't–you have to table everything and read yourself to understand what, in fact, is going on. Mr. Cullen: And, Mr. Speaker, I'm simply quoting the minister's comments in Hansard.

March 25, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1387 Under this government we've dropped from No. 1 to No. 26 in the mining sector. This government can't land the jobs. We're becoming less competitive and less attractive, so much so that companies like Fortune Minerals are setting up next door in Saskatchewan. Mr. Speaker, we have a Crown–a minister of the Crown accusing a company CEO of fabricating a story. How low will this government go in their efforts to pass the blame? Mr. Chomiak: Well, you know, Mr.

Speaker, I don't want to–I have a habit, with the e xception of Tories who are usually inaccurate, I don't like to say anything bad about anybody. But let me quote what this president of this company had to say about the federal Minister of Environment. Let me quote what the same individual had to say– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: I know honourable members want to hear both the questions and the answers, and I'm having difficulty hearing both. So I'm asking for the co-operation of all honourable members. Please give me the opportunity to hear both the questions and the answers.

The honourable Minister of Mineral Resources, to continue. Mr. Chomiak: Yes, thank you. In reference to the minister of –the federal Minister of Environment, the same company president said, quote: I like to think the minister's not going to f-bomb the dog on this. Mr. Cullen: Not sure what to say after that. You know, clearly, this government has reached a new low, Mr. Speaker. We recognize that –we recognize and Manitobans recognize the NDP are loose with the tr uth and they're never responsible when things go wrong.

A company comes knocking at our door with a hundred jobs, and this government can't close the deal. Not only did the NDP drop the ball on this file, they accused the CEO of lying. This is a disgrace ful way to do business. Does the minister understand the message he is sending to the business community? Mr. Chomiak: One of the significant events that's happened in mining in Manitoba in the last several years is the establishment of the minister adv isory council where all of the companies involved in mining are sitting down with First Nations and the department to work on land issues and First Nation issues.

And we've had tremendous support from the companies, Mr. Speaker, who are very supportive of our initiatives. Unfortunately, members opposite, who can see no good in anything, they are so negative –they are so back in the '90s. They are so retroactive that they will bend information. Unfortunately, they took information from a newspaper article, they stated it was truth. I just quoted another comment from that same individual talking about the federal minister. I don't think I would quote that individual for a newspaper article.

I'd rather talk to them directly and get the facts straight. * (14:00) School Division Funding Elimination of Positions Mr. Wayne Ewasko (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, it seems that they need a new literacy program over in the NDP caucus bench. Manitoba's education system ranks near the bottom in the PISA scores, including near the bottom in math scores. The new minister fired 11 teachers, but if you borrow the NDP jobs calculator, that actually works out to 55 teachers. The minister wants all the glory for everything that goes right, but they are nowhere to be found when it comes time to lay the blame. Mr.

Speaker, why does this minister believe he knows more about budgets than 19 school divisions? Hon. James Allum (Minister of Education and Advanced Learning): I'll remind the member that for the 15th consecutive y ear we have increased funding to schools year over year over year, 24 more million dollars this year. Our investments mean that we're building more schools. We're hiring more teachers. We're improving communication with parents. We're making class sizes smaller. And on each of those things, Mr. Speaker, the member has voted against it. Mr. Ewasko: Again, Mr.

Speaker, this new minister can't have it both ways. On one hand, he wants all the credit for hiring teachers; on the other, he wants

1388 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 25, 2014 to throw blame a t anyone else when something goes wrong. Now, the new minister is going and firing teachers again. The bar set in the Education portfolio by his predecessor was pretty low, and the new Minister of Education seems to be having a hard time clearing it. Mr. Speaker, why does this minister believe he knows better than 19 superintendents? How many more teachers is this minister going to fire before his days are done? Mr. Allum: Mr. Speaker, let's set the record straight.

Only one party in this House cuts the Education budget, and they're across the floor. Only one party in this House fires teachers, and that was 700 in the 1990s. On this side of the House we invest in schools, we hire teachers, we make class sizes smaller, we build gyms, we build science labs. On that side of the House, when that Leader of the Opposition was at the Cabinet table, they cut and they cut and they cut. The biggest threat to education in this province is the Leader of the Opposition and his critic. Mr. Ewasko: Mr.

Speaker, Manitobans are not buying this rhetoric spin and blame from this new Minister of Education. There's only one taxpayer, and they are tired of this new minister and his broken calculator. This year 18 out of 37 school divisions received no funding increase from this government. This is the smallest funding increase in five years after this government imposed the biggest tax increase to Manitobans in a quarter century. Why does this new Minister of Education believe he knows better than 150 ha rd-working trustees, and why is this minister firing teachers? Mr. Allum: Mr.

Speaker, the only thing that I know is I know better than the critic from across the floor when it comes to education, because that party has absolutely no credibility when it c omes to the Education portfolio. Twenty-four more million dollars in education this year, $470 million since we were first elected, a billion dollars in capital investments in our province. From 1993 to 1998, when the Leader of the Opposition was at the Cabinet table, there was cuts, freezes, cuts, freezes, cuts. Mr.

Speaker, I said it before and I said it again, the Leader of the Opposition wants to rip the heart out of the educational system in this province, and we will never, ever let that happen. Transitional Housing Program Drug Treatment Court Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, CBC has been reporting that the transitional housing program, which is an essential part of the Drug Treatment Court, formally ends in six days. The success of the Drug Treatment Court goes well beyond these individuals; it benefits all of society. The Minister of Justice (Mr.

Swan) said last year he wants to expand the Drug Treatment Court, it's so good, to western and northern Manitoba. But today the future of the transitional housing program, part – an essential part of the Drug Treatment Co urt, may be in question. Can the Premier tell the Legislature today: Why was the transitional housing program terminated when the evidence to date would suggest it's an essential part of the Drug Treatment Court program? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I think the member for River Heights knows full well that the cut in funding to–for the transitional housing was perpetrated on that organization by the federal government. That was a cut that they made in that program. All the evidence suggest s, as the member has indicated, that the number of people going through that program, that has reduced recidivism; the number of people returning to the justice system has gone down. It's a very cost -effective program. It's a worthy program. It's unfortunate the federal government has cut it, but it's not the first cut that they've made in the justice system.

They've also cancelling the band council program. They also cancelled the program for youth in the friendship centres across the province of Manitoba. So we've seen some very dramatic reductions in funding which keeps people usefully occupied in the community getting training, getting education, getting opportunities to work. Those cuts only hurt Manitobans. They hurt Manitoba families. They hurt Ma nitoba youth, and it's unfortunate that the Leader of the Opposition and the opposition party won't stand up for Manitoba once again on this issue.

March 25, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1389 Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, fickle federal Conservative funding, though a disturbing reality of life today, does not provide an excuse for the NDP for failing to protect this or any other essential and effective provincial program. It has been reported that only 14 per cent of those in the Drug Treatment Court program will reoffend, in contrast to far, far highe r rates of reoffending otherwise.

Why did the Premier fail in his responsibility to stand up to the federal government to ensure the transitional housing program so essential to the work of the drug court was continued? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, as the member knows, as a former member of the federal government, a former Cabinet minister, that the cuts were made at the federal level. At our level, we've expanded the number of beds available for people seeking addictions. Many of those people are people that have come out of the justice system.

We've expanded the amount of housing for the homeless in Manitoba, even though the federal government's pulling out of the project Chez Soi or the project At Home, a federal program for homelessness. Mr. Speaker, federal government's ending the program for band constables. Federal government is underfunding legal aid. The opposition seems to support all of those cuts. The Leader of the Opposition still thinks he's living in Ottawa. He should be in Manitoba standing up for Manitobans. We will work with that organization to ensure that there's some way to continue to support people with respect to drug treatment.

The Drug Treatment Court was an initiative we brought in in Manitoba. It's working very well and we wil l continue to support the Drug Treatment Court in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, it is a sign of really bad management, awful management, when a good program is faced with uncertainty about its future, as this program has been and is facing. For a program like this dealing with addictions issues, uncertainty in their difficult world already is very problematic.

Manitobans are wondering why it is that this NDP can't do such a simple thing as decide this is a good provincial program and ensure it has stable, ongoing funding. How could the government have failed to stand up to the federal government and so badly manage the funding to ensure stability for this essential program? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, this –unfortunately, it's coming from a member who was a member of the federal Cabinet that cut all the resources for family services, social services, legal aid, health care, post-secondary education, made that cut in 1995- 96 when he was in Cabinet, 39 per cent cut to those services, no t only in the province of Manitoba but across every province in the federation. At the same time as that's happening, at the same time as the opposition– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Gerrard: A point of order. The Premier (Mr.

Selinger) is so far from the facts that it is important to make some sort of correction here. The fact of the matter is that the Premier is grossly over exaggerating the changes in budgeting, and, in fact, most years in the 1990s transfers f rom the federal government to the province actually went up. He should be ashamed of himself on trying to do this. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. * (14:10) Hon. Andrew Swan (Government House Leader): Same point of order. I understand the member's question.

He's talking about federal funding cuts to programs in the province of Manitoba, and I heard the Premier very clearly speaking about the history of federal cuts to programming in Manitoba, and, indeed, the member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) was a federal Cabinet minister at the time some of those cuts were perpetrated on the people of Manitoba. So it is a dispute on the facts, but the facts do speak for themselves. Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for Steinbach, on the same point of order. Mr.

Kelvin Goertzen (Official Opposition House Leader): I listened carefully to the comments by the member for River Heights, and I think he's trying to revise history.

1390 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 25, 2014 Clearly, the federal Liberal governmen t at the time brought forward massive cuts to transfer payments to the province during the 1990s. We were fortunate to have a government of the province that did its best to deal with those terrible cuts, why the opposition NDP sat by and did nothing at the time. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for River Heights (Mr.

Gerrard), I did not hear which particular rule, procedure or practice of the Assembly that may have been breached, and so therefore I must respectfully rule that there is no point of order. And while I'm on my feet, I wanted to indicate to all honourable members that when they're rising on a point of order, please start by citing the –which particular rule you think may have been breached. It would help me in making that decision, and that we're not to use points of orders to debate matters of the House when we can debate those at another point in time. * * * Mr.

Speaker: Now, back to the honourable First Minister, to conclude his comments. Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, I'll let them compete about who's the biggest cutter when it comes to services in Manitoba. While they're debating that, while they're debating who's the biggest cutter, who has the biggest pair of scissors, we'll continue to invest in Manitobans, invest in the economy, invest in education, invest in family services. We'll look after the people of Manitoba. They can compete for who should be living in Ottawa. Mr. Speaker: The honourable –order, please. Order, please. The honourable member for St.

James has the floor. Birds Hill Campground Provincial Park Reservations Ms. Deanne Crothers (St. James): Manitoba's many rivers, lakes and parks are part of what make this province a great place to live, and that's why we make investments that protect our natural habitats for the generations to come. And many Manitobans make a point of visiting these beautiful parks throughout the summer months. For some this is an annual tradition, a much- loved family tradition. In fact, I recently had a conversation regarding campsite reservations with a St.

James community centre president who is anxious to book a yurt for his family to vacation at, as they do every year. We announced the opening of campsite reservations for another park season just last week, and I'm hoping the Minister of Conservation and Water Stewardship can tell us more about developments this seaso n and our ongoing commitment to parks in Manitoba. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Conservation and Water Stewardship): Well, first I want to thank the member and her constituent for advice in terms of our eagerness to make sure that the reservation system works for Manitobans as best as possible.

There's always a huge crush of reservations right at the opening time, so the member was very instrumental in bringing forward some ideas. But yesterday the park reservation system opened, and this year we opened earlier, at 7 a.m., because some Manitobans were saying that the later time was difficult during the workaday. As well, we coupled the yurts and cabin reservations with reservations for Birds Hill so that we can reduce the volume when the reservations open for all the rest of the parks on April 7th.

But I'm pleased to report to the House that yesterday 5,643 reservations were made, and I can just remind people– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable minister's time has expired. MASC Office Status Government Intent Mr. Shannon Martin (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I'm learning that articulation is not a strong suit of the Minister of Agriculture. For all his flip -flopping on the issue of closing the Manitoba Agricultural Services Corporation office in the town of Morris, he is better suited for the ministry of fishery.

The minister spoke of due diligence, about informing the clients of the closure of this office. When will he start informing farmers that the office is closing, or are they just to figure it out when they arrive there and the sign says closed? Hon. Ron Kostyshyn (Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development): Let me just refresh

March 25, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1391 the member's opposite commentary that was said in the Winnipeg Free Press going back in September 24, 2005. The new MLA of Morris believes the government should not provide financial support to grow Manitoba businesses. I consider having agricultural offices in appropriate locations is a good way to grow a province of Manitoba. The member opposite chooses that the government should not put money into small communities. I have a different opinion than he does. Mr. Martin: Mr. Speaker– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable member for Morris has the floor. Mr. Martin: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the minister using his bottle of Febreze here in the House. It's needed on that side. The lease at the current location, Mr. Speaker, it expires July 31st. In a space of 3,000- plus square feet, designed specifically for the Dep artment of Agriculture, it'll require significant renovations to accommodate prospective new tenants, if they can be found. Due diligence and common courtesy should also extend to the landlord. When will this minister advise the landlord that they will not be renewing the lease as of July 31st? Mr.

Kostyshyn: No, the office will not be closed in Morris. The GO offices–or MASC office will not be closed. Rural ER Closures Spring Break Hours Mr. Wayne Ewasko (Lac du Bonnet): It took four days, Mr. Speaker, to finally get some sort of answer. Mr. Speaker, the Lac du Bonnet constituency is a beautiful area of the province and such its population triples, if not quadruples, during the summer months. Given that Beausejour's, Powerview -Pine Falls' and Pinawa's ERs have been closed for many days, Mr. Speaker, are we to expect that all of these ERs will be closed during the spring break? Hon.

Erin Selby (Minister of Health): I can tell the member that we've never taken funding away from rural ERs. We work with rur al ERs to recruit more doctors. It's why we have more than 560 more doctors working in Manitoba and more than 120 of them working in rural Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, the only party in this House that cut funding to rural hospitals and rural PCHs is the $37 mi llion that the Tories cut when they were in office. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Time for oral questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Mr. Speaker: It's time for members' statements. Prospectors and Developers Association Convention Mr.

Clarence Pettersen (Flin Flon): In early March, I attended the annual Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada convention in Toronto. PDAC hosted over a thousand exhibitors and 25,000 attendees from over 120 countries, making it the largest mining convention in the world. I'm always optimistic about mining industry in the North, and so are many members of the mining community. This is clear when you look at the strong delegation Manitoba sent to PDAC.

Many members from our mining sector here in Manitoba attende d the conference, including representatives from HudBay, Vale, San Gold and many independent geologists and prospectors. On behalf of the Province of Manitoba, the Minister of Mineral Resources (Mr. Chomiak) and I advocated for the Manitoba advantage. This package boasts the best deal for investment in Manitoba. For example, Manitoba provides the most generous tax credit to residents who invest in mineral exploration companies in all of Canada.

During the convention, it was hard not to share the overall hope and potential for the mining sector in Canada. While it has faced its share of challenges, the mining sector in northern Manitoba remains a top priority for many of us. Many northerners make their livelihood in the mining sector and we are dedicated to keeping and creating those good jobs for years to come. By the end of the year, the Canadian mining company HudBay Minerals hopes to have three full mines in operation around Flin Flon.

Lalor, near Snow Lake, will be the next major underground mine for HudBay, while the company has recently unveiled its new copper mine project, Reed Lake. Finally, HudBay is also continuing to invest in their flagship mine, 777.

1392 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 25, 2014 Mr. Speaker, Flin Flon is a resilient town. We plan on growing mining in the North to ensure good jobs are always available. There are opportunities for mining in northern Manitoba and we will find them. Thank you. Ukraine Mr. Ron Schuler ( St. Paul): When good men and women stay silent, those with evil intentions win. Two weeks ago, the Manitoba Legislature unanimously passed a resolution to condemn all violence perpetrated against Ukraine. Since then, the world has seen Russia move troops into the Ukraine and the Crimean peninsula seceded to Russia.

The people of Ukraine continue to suff er at the hands of violent aggressors. On March 18th, Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced that Canada imposed economic sanctions and travel bans against Russian officials, and he said, and I quote: Russia's continuing actions are illegitimate and a d eliberate violation of the rights and freedoms of the Ukrainian people. President Putin continues to defy the international community, and until a diplomatic solution is reached, we will consider further actions and repercussions.

Unquote. * (14:20) On March 19th, I asked the minister responsible for the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission to commit to removing all Russian -produced products from the shelves of MLCC stores until the international crisis in Ukraine is resolved. Manitoba has always had a long-standing history of standing up for our beliefs around the world, and I personally recollect, in the mid -1980s Manitoba was one of the provinces that banned the sale of South African liquor products in support of the anti -apartheid movement. It wasn't complicated matter then and it isn't now.

It is right for us as Manitobans to stand up for those in Ukraine who were injured and died for what this Chamber represents. It is right for us as Manitobans to stand up for those in Ukraine who are missing for what this Chamber represents. It is right for us as Manitobans to withdraw all Russian-produced alcohol from the MLCC until the Russian invasion of Ukraine has been resolved. We, as Manitobans, should take a small stand and maybe just a symbolic stan d, but we should take a stand against tyranny. Daniel McIntyre/St. Matthews Community Association Mr. Rob Altemeyer (Wolseley): Mr.

Speaker, empowering local people to revitalize their own neighbourhood is an important part of building community. That's why I'm proud to work alongside organizations like the Daniel McIntyre/St. Matthews Community Association. Thanks in large part to a unique funding arrangement with our government's Neighbourhoods Alive! program, the DMSMCA consults with local residents o n their priorities, and then provides financial support to help turn those dreams into reality. The result is a safer, healthy and vibrant community.

This grassroots approach to renewal means that each of the dozen communities now funded by Neighbourhoods Alive! can select their own priorities. In DMSMCA, those have included greening initiatives such as community gardens, a composting program, neighbourhood- wide spring clean-up, reducing climate change emissions in a single year by 14 tonnes and helping households recycle their old batteries and cell phones. They've also got a housing plan, with grants for fixing up the exteriors of local homes, plus bedbug prevention and treatment services.

There's a community-building block parties, summer and winter fes tivals and a free literacy program for families new to Canada. Just last week, I was very pleased to celebrate the completion of a $100,000 retrofit of the DMSMCA offices and resource centre. Jointly funded with the federal government, this investment will enable the DMSMCA's valuable programs to evolve and expand for years to come. Congratulations to DMSMCA Board Chair Sean McManus, Executive Director Kemlin Nembhard and all their staff and volunteers on this important accomplishment.

I'm proud to share the DMSMCA catchment area with my honourable colleague, the Attorney General (Mr. Swan). I'm sure both of our calendars will continue to be filled up with many wonderful events and opportunities to connect with the vibrant community that is the DMSMCA. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

March 25, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1393 Polar Bear Dare Mr. Wayne Ewasko (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, on February 22nd, in temperatures of - 25º with winds howling and the water freezing, Manitobans lined up to do something that isn't normally associated with winter: jumping in the lake. For the third year in a row, Lac du Bonnet played host to the Polar Bear Dare, all in support of KidSport; 51 people signed up to raise money and jump in the lake –in the river in support of good cause. Groups even got into the fun by dressing up in character, with one group dressing up as the Spice Girls. Now, Mr.

Speaker, even I got into the fun. I, along with the –Lac du Bonnet's mayor, Greg Short, local RCMP officers and 52 jumpers, plunged into the frigid Winnipeg River. While some jum ped in dressed like a polar bear, like the Spice Girls, the Coca-Cola bears or like giant red Solo Cups, I jumped in wearing the official uniform of an MLA, my suit. Groups from all over the province took part, and it was great to see so many people parti cipate in an event with a truly great cause: helping kids play sports, Mr. Speaker.

KidSport is a charity in this province that provides a vital service to children and families, bringing the joys of sport to families who may not be able to afford it. Chi ldren deserve the chance to participate in sports, whether it's hockey, baseball, figure skating or whatever they so choose, Mr. Speaker. Our future Olympians in this province deserve the best chance possible to succeed, and if all it takes is jumping in the river in the middle of February, that's a no-brainer. Mr.

Speaker, I want to take this opportunity to thank the organizers and volunteers of the Polar Bear Dare, KidSport, the residents of Lac du Bonnet for making this event such a success. It may have been a little cold and I may have some serious dry cleaning to get done on my suit, but it's all worth it to see kids participate in the sports they love. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Children's Wish Foundation Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Mr.

Speaker, it gives me great pleasure today to address the Assembly on a matter of great importance to Manitobans and the constituents that I'm so privileged to represent, that being a charity –more 'pecifically' the 25th annual event of the Children's Wish Foundation South Interlake

Chapter Ride for a Child's Wish. This year's event took place August the 17th at the Peltier farm in Woodlands. The gracious hosts for many years now were Silver and Gary Peltier. The 25th annual ride brought out 156 horses, 11 wagons w ith passengers, 54 riders, 42 motorcycles and over a thousand people. The day began with trail rides and kids entertainment, followed by an awesome barbecue supper of pork, chicken, beans, buns, fresh corn and a dessert. Kids enjoyed face painting and sca venger hunts while the adults took

part in an old- fashioned barn dance and poker derby. Following the wish auction, they finished off the night dancing and partying to the sounds of Leanne Pearson and the Wavelength Sound. Their goal was to surpass the million -dollar mark this year in the terms of funds raised. To accomplish this goal, virtually all the proceeds must go to the Children's Wish Foundation in donations to help make a child's wish come true. They did it. The South Interlake

Chapter has now r isen over $1 million. Mr. Speaker, for a child whose wish is about to be granted, the pain of illness somehow become more bearable with the success of these events. I had the pleasure of attending the event and I must say it was a most memorable such a d ay. As such, I would like to ask all honourable members to join me in showing their appreciation for the Peltiers and their dedicated hard -working volunteers in supporting such a worthwhile cause. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Grievances? ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Mr.

Speaker: Seeing no grievances, orders of the day, government business. Hon. Andrew Swan (Government House Leader): Could we proceed with the Committee of Supply this afternoon? Mr. Speaker: Now I'll proceed to call–resolve into the Committee of Supply. Mr. Deputy Speaker, will you please take the Chair.

1394 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 25, 2014 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) INFRASTRUCTURE AND TRANSPORTATION * (14:40) Mr. Chairperson (Mohinder Saran): Order. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. Prior to resuming with the business before us, I would like to inform the committee that I need to correct the record and will therefore put the question again on resolution 15.2 and 15.3 of the Estimates of the Department of Infrastructure and Transportation.

Resolution 15.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $49,455,000 for Infrastructure and Transportation, Highways and Transportation Programs , for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2015. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 15.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $53,901,000 for Infrastructure and Transportation, Government Services Programs , for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2015. Resolution agreed to. HOUSING AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT Mr. Chairperson (Mohinder Saran): Now the

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Housing and Community Development. As previously agreed, questions for the department will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Hon. Peter Bjornson (Minister of Housing and Community Development ): Mr. Chair, before we go back to questions, I'd just like to point out to my colleague that we have been joined now by Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer Mala Sachdeva.

She found out when she was on vacation that we started Estimates, so she came straight back to join us at the Estimates table today. And I'd also like to point out we did make one error yesterday when we talked about the regional offices, and I put on the record that there were three. There are actually four. And just for clarification, I will put into the record that our head office a t 352 Donald has 329 employees; the Winnipeg south regional office on St. Mary's Rd. has 13; Gilbert Park regional office has seven; Lord Selkirk Park regional office, 10; and the Winnipeg Central Park regional office has five.

I'd also like to share a number of documents with the member who had asked for more information on the corporate compliance and risk management positions and the plan to fill the positions. We also have a list of vacant positions in Manitoba Housing and departmental positions to be filled. I am also providing for the member reclassifications from 2013-2014, as well. And I'm also providing the five-year funding for Neighbourhoods Alive! budget estimate amounts from 2009-10 to 2014-15.

I know the member had also asked for the grants–I'll pass that to the member –and I know that my critic had asked for the grants that had been approved under the Neighbourhoods Alive!, Neighbourhood Renewal Fund and the LIFT program. I can tell the member that between LIFT and the Neighbourhood Rene wal Fund, you have 557 grants. So it would take some time to get that list for the member. If she still would like to see that list, we'll be more than happy to provide it. Mr. Chairperson: Member for River Heights–sorry, member for River East. Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Thanks, Mr.

Chair, for the correction. And thank you; I –is that 550 sum over the one–five years or six years? Mr. Bjornson: That is over a five-year period. Mrs. Mitchelson: Is that, then, 550 different organizations or 550 di fferent grants, because with some of the grants recur year after year to the same organization? Mr. Bjornson : Mr. Chairperson, 557 grants. And most of them are single individual grants. Mrs.

Mitchelson: I–there's no rush for this, but if we could get that information and if it could be–yes, sort of year by year and the grants, and the grant amounts to the –which organizations, that would be appreciated. And I know it will be somewhat time consuming. So I don't anticipate that it'll be really fast, but I w ould appreciate that information. Thank you. Also, I'd like, now, to ask about Manitoba Housing units, and how many units do–does Manitoba Housing own today? I believe in the last annual report of 2012- 2013 it was 18,000, and I'm just wondering what the number might be today.

March 25, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1395 Mr. Bjornson : Yes, I thank the member for the question. Referring to page 31 in the Estimates, we –under Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation, we provide subsidies to and support to approximately 35,500 units under various housi ng programs. And we do –[interjection]–sorry, page 31. MHRC owns approximately 18,100 units, 14,300 units and 10–of which 14,300 units and 10 crisis shelters are directly managed by the corporation, and the remaining units, as stated, are owned and/or manag ed by non -profits and co-operatives. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Could I just ask the minister to repeat the last two numbers? I got the 14,300 were managed directly by the department. How many are managed by others, and then there was shelters, I believe. Mr. Bjornson : Yes, as stated on page 31, the 18,100 units are approximate, the number of units that MHRC owns; 14,300 units and 10 crisis shelters are managed directly by the corporation. So the remainder, in quick math, would be about 3,800 units that are currently owned and/or managed by non-profit groups and organizations. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Can the minister explain the 10 crisis shelters, because I don't recall seeing 10 crisis shelters in other years' Estimates, so –unless I've missed them somewhere. Is this a new number and how many units or beds are in the 10 crisis shelters, and where are they located? Mr. Bjornson : Yes, I thank the member for the question. The 10 shelters that we're referring to in Estimates is actually –we've actually had these 10 shelters for a number of years and they are for family-violence prevention.

So we're reluctant to give out the addresses of those shelters, but I can assure the member that they are located throughout the province, and, for obvious reasons, we don't like to give out the addresses. Mrs. Mitchelson: And I certainly understand this. So we're talking about places like Osborne House? Can the minister indicate how many beds totally would be in those shelters? Mr. Bjornson : We don't have all the numbers available right now, but we could provide that for you. We'll have to do a little bit of homework for that. Mrs.

Mitchelson: And have these 10 crisis shelters always been included in the units owned by Manitoba Housing? Mr. Bjornson: Yes, they have. Mrs. Mitchelson: Could I just ask, I know we don't have the exact numbers, but could I just ask whether there's been an increase in the number of shelter beds for family violence programming in the last while, or has it been a stable number? Mr. Bjornson : There are 10 women's shelters, as mentioned, but we also should mention that there is now a shelter for men under the family violence protection–prevention initiative, which would be a new capacity for the province. Mrs.

Mitchelson: And then, just going back to the units owned by Manitoba Housing, of the 18,100 approximately that we have now, how many might be vacant suites? Mr. Bjornson : Yes. There are 318 of the direct-managed units under Manitoba Housing's purview that are currently vacant, but th ey are available for rent. Mrs. Mitchelson: Do we have numbers for those that are managed by others? Mr. Bjornson: No, we do not have that number. * (14:50) Mrs. Mitchelson: So would the Manitoba Housing unit on Pacific in Brandon be managed directly, or is that managed by a third party? Mr.

Bjornson : Could the member provide an address? We do have a couple of Manitoba Housing units that are on Pacific, or, as the member from Brandon East points out, about seven or eight units. Mrs. Mitchelson: No, I don't have a number, so I guess that–I didn't realize there was many different units along Pacific. Are there some housing complexes on Pacific Avenue that are absolutely vacant at this point in time that are not available for rent? Mr. Bjornson: Not that I'm aware of.

If the member knows of a specific property on Pacific, and if she could be specific about Pacific, then we could get the specifics for you, as–I'm sorry, I just–I had to do that. Mrs. Mitchelson: And I will attempt to get some more specific information.

1396 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 25, 2014 If I could ask about the new Manitoba Housing units on Stickney Avenue. How many units were built? Mr. Bjornson : The property that the member's referring to has 24 units, 12 of which are affordable and 12 of which are rent geared to income. Mrs. Mitchelson: Can the minister indicate whether they're all full? Mr. Bjornson : I understand that the last available unit was recently tenanted, but we will confirm that for the member. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Just on–just in Brandon, I know that Habitat for Humanity housing was taken over by Massey Manor, I think it was, in Brandon, was taken over by the Province, by the Department of Housing. There were some issues with Habitat there. And I don't know where Massey Manor was located, but is there–yes. Can the minister just indicate to me when the Province took it over? Did the Province pay for that property and how much would they have paid? Mr. Bjornson: Yes, Mr. Chair, the Province did pay for the building. We do not have that number available, but we can get that for you. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Can the minister indicate what the plan is for that piece of property? Mr. Bjornson: Yes, for that particular property there are 14 units. They're affordable housing units and they are being rented out at this time. * (15:00) Mrs. Mitchelson: When the minister is getting back to me with the cost of that property, I would like to know who was paid. There was an amount that was paid and who did the government buy that property from? Thank you. I note in the annua l reports going back to 2009-2010, the number of units owned by Manitoba Housing was 17,600, and in 2012- 2013, the number owned was 18,000.

So that was an increase of 400 units owned. And yet the government has talked about, in its annual reports, that ove r that period of time that was the first four years of the five-year plan to increase the housing accommodation by 1,200–by 1,500, that they had already attained a number of 1,224 in that last annual report. So my question would be: If there was only an increase of the number of units owned, how does that compare to the 1,224 units that the government has talked about building? I see some 824 units missing in that number. Mr. Bjornson: There's a number of reasons for that, Mr.

Chair, and what we have right now is 1,224 units that are committed to be built. Not all the units that we do build are going to be owned by Manitoba Housing or managed by Manitoba Housing. They'll be managed by various partners. So, we don't own all those projects. We also did ini tiate a program to eliminate surplus stock where we found–through Rural Homeownership Program –where we found areas where Manitoba Housing units were chronically vacant, for appropriate clients who would be eligible for affordable housing, they were able to purchase the homes as well.

So that took a few units out of our stock, but at the same time, we are building more stock, and, as I said, we have commitments and approved capital funding for 1,224 units. Mr. Chairperson: Member for River Heights. Mrs. Mitchelson: River East. Mr. Chairperson: Oh sorry, member for River East. Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you, Mr. Chair, and, okay, so there is a significant difference between committed and built. So, over the four -year period, there are actually 400 more units available. That's a hundred–an extra hundred a year that are available for rental at this point.

I would like to know which 400 have been completed, if I can get an inventory of that, and if the minister could tell me where the other 824 are that have been committed. And when they have been committed, does that mean there has been construction started, and if not, when will the construction be started on those units? Mr.

Bjornson: Well, I gladly share with the member a number of the publicly announced projects, many of which are completed: the Dakota Ojibway Tribal Council family units in Brandon; Western Manitoba Seniors Non- Profit Housing Co- op was completed; DOTCHAI–if I'm saying that right–DOTCHAI 2 in Brandon was completed; Camperville, new builds were completed; Dauphin seniors non-profit resource inc., completed; Gimli West in Gimli is completed; RM of Hanover, Menno Home assisted living is completed; Chalet de La Broquerie seniors complex, completed; Springfield seniors housing in Oakbank is in progress; CMHA, Portage la Prairie, family units completed ; the Icelandic River Lodge in Riverton is in process, phase one completed, phase two beginning; East Borderland Community Housing

March 25, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1397 Inc. in Sprague seniors completed; MHRC Villa Youville Inc., St. A nne seniors housing completed; Bridgepark Manor in Steinbach seniors housing completed. The list goes on. Would you like me to read that into the record or –one issue that I do have is some projects that are planned on my list are not yet publicly announced so that is not something that I'm prepared to read into the record right now.

But the total projects that have received approval for capital funding that have been publicly announced is $200,565,289 and that includes the recent announcement for the University of Winnipeg Community Renewal Corporation for mixed market, or pardon me, we have affordable housing units incorporated into that. We have market rate housing units. We'll have premium suites. That particular project was recently announced shortly a fter I had been appointed minister. We also have Winnipeg Beach Gateway Foundation.

That was completed a couple of years ago, and I have no less than 19 projects in Winnipeg that are in various stages. Most of them completed, some of them in progress, mos tly family units and a few family singles units as well including the Paul E. Martin Estates which we announced in Transcona recently, and that's a combination of seniors housing in one wing and family housing in an additional wing with a common area for r ecreation purposes to be shared by those wings of that particular unit. So we have $200,565,289 in approved capital funding in various stages for the announced projects.

I can't really speak to the approved funding for the ones that aren't yet publicly announced, of course, as we have a number of issues, as you would appreciate, around what that means when you do go to tender for these projects et cetera, but I can assure you there's a wealth of projects that are going to be announced in due time to fulfill that commitment. Mrs.

Mitchelson: I wonder if the minister might undertake to just provide for me then the list of those that have been announced already that are completed and where they are, how many units in which community and how many are in progres s and how many have not started as yet, okay, and if they haven't started, when the estimated start date might be for those. If I could have that, I would really appreciate it. Mr. Bjornson : Yes, we'll provide that for the member. I just have an update on the information that the member had requested regarding the property in Massey.

I believe I said it was a million dollars or–that's what I'd said earlier, I believe, An Honourable Member: No, you didn't have the number. Mr. Bjornson : I didn't have a numbe r? Okay, I didn't say a number. Okay, then I won't correct that. I'll tell you what the number is. It's $1,622,682 and it was paid to Habitat to Humanity. Mrs. Mitchelson: I thank the minister for that information.

Can I ask in the Estimates on page 33 under MHRC the line for housing development is down, oh, some $9 million, 8 or 9 million dollars, and it says under the explanation that that is due to the deferral of expenditure requirements toward the delivery of 500 new, affordable rental housing units. Can the minister explain that to me so I can understand it properly? * (15:10) Mr. Bjornson : Yes, the spending is deferred because of the cash flows that will occur as a result of a lag behind when the project is first planned and when the design is comple ted and when we finally to–go to the construction stage.

We had 12 and a half million in '13 -14 for the 500 affordable units and it was reduced in '14- 15 because of the planned expenditures on the units being part of the planning process, the design process, the construction process. And I know the member was saying, when will these projects start?

Spring usually for many of the projects that we've already committed to, not necessarily for these projects, of course, because they're going to be going to the planning stages, but ones that we've already committed to, as I talked about in the previous question, for projects that hadn't quite started that are hopefully going to start in the spring whenever spring comes. But with these housing units we are going through a variety of RFPs right now.

We had an RFP for seniors housing recently for 140 units, and housing staff is currently consulting with communities on what they hope to see in seniors housing in their communities, and having a very grassroots approach to the consultations and engaging a number of stakeholders in that process. So, once the projects are identified through the RFPs, once they go through the planning stage, once they go through the design stage, then that is when the money will be flowing.

1398 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 25, 2014 Mrs. Mitchelson: So those 500, then, are –they're not part of the 1,500? Are they part of another announcement or a commitment? Mr. Bjornson: We had made the announcement on the 1,500 portable, 1,500 social five years ago. If I'm–oh, pardon me –2000? Okay, 2009. So, yes, that was a five -year plan, and now the 500 affordable, 500 social are our latest commitment to add to that stock that we've been developing over the last five years. Mrs. Mitchelson: So the 1,500, I need to try to understand this.

The 1,500 that were committed in the five-year plan will be all committed, completed or under construction in the five years or –and that five years, I believe, is finished. So we're anticipating that they are under construction and they will be completed and there will be 1,500 new units. This is an additional 500 and they are not going to start this year because they're only in the planning stages, but there will be no construction on these 500 in this fiscal year. Is that correct? Mr.

Bjornson : We do anti cipate there'll be some cash flow for the commitment of 500 additional housing this year because, as the member knows, some organizations have been working on proposals and have been waiting for the next intake of RFPs. So we expect that there'll be some u ptake and cash flow required on the new commitment. And the first part of your question, yes, that's correct in terms of the 1,500 and where we are in the delivery of those 1,500 units from the original commitment. We're on track to meet those commitments.

So this is an additional 500 and it's 500 social, 500 affordable on top of the 1,500 social and 1,500 affordable, as announced in '09. Mrs. Mitchelson: So just to be clear, then, there's an extra 1,500 and 500, and what time frame is that commitment covering? Mr. Bjornson : We expect to have met the commitment in three years. Mrs. Mitchelson: So I'm looking forward to getting the information on what, you know, has already been completed.

Can the minister also indicate to me, when we're looking at construction, are we coming in on budget for the construction or are you finding construction costs higher than were originally anticipated? Mr. Bjornson : Well, with the –with every tender that's issued, we do anticipate and account for inflation. We do ant icipate and account for contingency. In some cases, we've had projects that have required the contingency funding. In some cases, we've had projects that have come under the budgeted price.

But I suspect that's the nature of construction everywhere in Manitoba right now, and, of course, some projects might have project -specific challenges or issues that would require that contingency and others, not. So weather being one of the great equalizers or challenges, if you will, in the construction season, as well , there, as the member knows, could be a number of factors that could contribute to that. Mrs. Mitchelson: I wonder if the minister could provide for me, then, the projects that have been completed. Do we have the budget for those projects? And, then, do we have the final cost? Mr.

Bjornson: We don't have that information here, but we can provide that for the member. Mrs. Mitchelson: Were all the projects tendered? Did they all go through a competitive process? Mr. Bjornson : Yes, all the projects were tendered with the exception of two units, and I'll speak to those. I spoke about those units just yesterday, in fact, and those are the units that were being built by students in Cranberry Portage through their technical vocational initiative.

I mentioned that I had been there to see that they had poured the concrete and that they were students working through their vocational program to build those two units. But all the other projects were tendered. Mrs. Mitchelson: And that's for the new construction. What about the refurbishment of units? Mr. Bjornson: Yes, all the renovations and refreshes are tendered as well. Mrs. Mitchelson: And where are they tendered? Do they go to 'merc'–like, where do–yes. * (15:20) Mr. Bjornson: Yes. For every tender over $100,000, it is tendered through MERX.

For refreshes or projects at less than $100,000, it’s by invitation to tender, and many of those that are invited to do so are pre-qualified for the tender. Mrs. Mitchelson: Do we have a list of those that are invited to tender on those projects? Mr. Bjornson: Well, barring any privacy concerns, we can certainly look at providing that list. We'd

March 25, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1399 have to see if that's –if there are any issues around privacy. Mrs. Mitchelson: I hope that the minister would agree that, you know, if it's public dollars that are being spent that that kind of information probably should be available. And how do you become pre-qualified? Mr.

Bjornson : To be pre -qualified there's certain criteria that companies must meet and things that are taken into consideration, including capacity of the company to deliver on the scope and scale of the project, the safety record of the company, if they are bonded, if there are any corrective actions that are registered against the company, workers' compensation coverage. Things of that nature would be considered in the pre -qualification for groups that would be tendering. Mrs. Mitchelson: Then is everyone given that opportunity?

Do you put out a –I guess, is there something in writing that talks about what a company would need to be pre -qualified, and is that available online or anywhere so that –[interjection]– yes, so that everyone would know? Mr. Bjornson: It's an open invitation for companies to apply to pre -qualify on MERX, and once they have done so they –well, they're invited to do so through MERX, and, once they are pre -qualified and meet the criteria, then they're selected for –to be invited to a tender. Mrs.

Mitchelson: And how many companies would be on the pre -qualified list, and do we have a –do we have that list available? Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Chair, we'll provide the member with that list. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chair, and I just want clarification. This is for the contracts under $100,000 that don't go to tender? Mr. Bjornson: That's correct. Mrs. Mitchelson: Right. I guess –just–I'm just wondering what is happening with home ownership options for First Nations families who have moved into urban cent res from reserves. And, you know, does the government have a plan to assist these families?

And what might that plan be? I know that there was an affordable housing program at Manitoba Tipi Mitawa that was a partnership between the Manitoba Real Estate Association and government. And I believe it was a fairly successful program. I'm not sure whether there's going to be funding continued for that program. I wonder if the minister could indicate to me whether there will be any funding, whether that partnership will still continue and whether that might be one of the options for home ownership for First Nations families, or whether that is not going to be an option any longer. Mr. Bjornson: Mr.

Chair, the organization that the member is referring to has rece ntly asked for an extension to the existing agreement, and I would suspect that I'll be meeting with them very soon to have that discussion. And, of course, the Metis Economic Development Organization is another organization that we have recently entered into an agreement with for affordable and –affordable home ownership–affordable rental and affordable home ownership programs for the Metis as well. So those are two of the programs that are currently under way to address housing needs for First Nations and Metis. Mrs.

Mitchelson: And I would certainly encourage the minister to meet personally with the Manitoba Real Estate Association. I know that it has been a fairly successful program. I think all 11 families that have gone through a pretty rigorous proc ess have been successful in obtaining and achieving and committing and continuing to commit to, you know, home ownership. And, you know, for me –and I would believe for the minister, too–I mean, we're looking at 11 families with over 22 children that have some stability in their lives with home ownership.

They're not moving from one rental accommodation to another, and that gives them the opportunity to stabilize in a school situation and learn and have more opportunity for success as a result. * (15:30) And so I look at a program that has, I think, proven itself. I think any evaluation that's been done has indicated that it has been successful. And I would strongly advocate for a continuation of that program, especially when you have a hundred per cent success. And so I'm hopeful that he will meet with them soon. I know I've had a chance to meet with them, and I have seen the video too, that, you know, talks

1400 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 25, 2014 about the families and talks about the pride those families have in obtaining that goal. And so I'm hopeful that that program will be able to continue. And I think that it's really important, when we're looking at options, that not – one size does not fit all, that there are several programs, I think, that could work for families. But it sounds to me l ike this one is a bit of a win -win because there's private -sector involvement and a partnership with government.

So I think it's a more cost-efficient option, and I'm hopeful that the minister will meet and will at least hear them out and consider, you know, an extension of that program in the best interest of those families that are looking to be successful when they realize an opportunity for home ownership and stability in our community. When government is selling off Manitoba housing, and, you know, a nd rental property, how is the value of the property determined when it's being sold? Mr.

Bjornson : As the member was mentioning in her previous comments that, indeed, home ownership is stability for many families that haven't had that opportunity before, and the home ownership program is designed to provide that stability.

So, when we do look at, as I said, looking at chronically vacant Manitoba Housing units for sale, we look at communities, the property values within the community, we either have an evaluation or appraisal by a qualified appraiser or by a real estate officer to give that appraised value, and it would reflect the quality of the housing itself, and it would reflect the community property values and market values within these areas. And tha t's how the prices are determined for sale. Mrs.

Mitchelson: I know that –and I believe it's probably happening in other parts of the city of Winnipeg too, but I just know out in my own community in the River East area that there's been some Manitoba Housing property, and they would be several, sort of, maybe two -storey, attached, large complexes. I'm talking on Rothesay and Donwood, and I know that your deputy probably knows that area quite well too. They are now being sold by the private sector– Mr. Chai rperson: Order. Order, please. A formal vote has been requested in another

section of the Committee of Supply. I am, therefore, recessing this

section of Committee of Supply in order for members to proceed to the member for a–to the Chamber for a formal vote. The committee recessed at 3:35 p.m. ____________ The committee resumed at 4:01 p.m. Mr. Chairperson: Order. I would like to call the Committee of Supply back to order. This committee will resume with its business where we left off prior to the recess. I believe the member for River East was in the middle of posing her question. Mrs.

Mitchelson: We were talking about the properties on Donwood and Raleigh that obviously were Manitoba Housing stock and have been sold and are being developed as condominiums and being sold now as condominiums. They were renovated and sold. So I'd like to ask the minister how many units were sold and who they were sold to and whether that is included in the number of units that have come out of Manitoba Housing stock. Mr. Bjornson: Yes, the units on Rothesay that the member's referring to are not Manitoba Housing units, and we are not –we do own units on Rothesay.

And I understand it's not uncommon for some of the privately owned housing units to be very similar in appearance to Manitoba Housing units, but we are not selling our units on Rothesay. Mrs. Mitchelson: So there were no units on Rothesay or on Donwood over the last number of years that were sold? Mr. Bjornson: No, there were not. Mrs. Mitchelson: Okay, so that the properties on Donwood were not Manitoba Housing properties; they were privately owned. They just looked like Manitoba Housing stock then.

And is there any other area within the city where Manitoba Housing stock is being sold, refurbished and developed into condos? Mr. Bjornson : Actually, I'm awaiting some information on that particular answer, and while we're waiting there's a couple of questions that you'd asked earlier that I've since–while we were away exercising the franchise in voting. Going back to Brandon, on Pacific Avenue, we have nine single -family units, and there's a project right now in the planning stage for roof work, rain

March 25, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1401 gear replacement, exterior wall retrofit, and we understand that these houses are all currently occupied. We've talked about the pre-qualification process. It only applies to construction contracts of estimated value between $100,000 and $10 million. So I wanted to clarify that. Pre -qualification list includes 39 contractors who are pre -approved for the $100,000-plus projects, and the invitation to join is listed and publicized on MERX. People can request to be pre-qualified at any time.

For projects below $100,000, we use invitational bidding in accordance with the requirements under the Agreement on Interna l Trade. In some cases, we have agreements, standing service agreements, for certain repetitive work scopes. So, if we have some individuals who've been providing that service for years and it's repetitive work, then we have some agreements for that. And t hese service agreements are of varying durations: a maximum of two to three years with an option for one to two year extensions, and we're invitationally or publicly tendered as well.

So that's–I hope that answers the questions that the member had on tendering. And, now, for the units that –[interjection] We do not sell large –or we have not sold large complex units. We have sold units individually to Habitat for Humanity, and they are either renovated or demolished for a new build. Vacant lots, if there's demand, they may go to programs such as the Winnipeg Housing and Renewal Corporation for infill housing. Mrs.

Mitchelson: So, then, there are no Manitoba Housing units, over the last number of years, that have been sold off to developers, that have been developed for rental accommodation or condo builds? Mr. Bjornson : We'll certainly go back and double-check, but, no, we do not believe any large units have been sold for that purpose. Mrs. Leanne Rowat (Riding Mountain): I have a few questions with regard to the tendering process.

Looking at the community and a –or community development and housing strategy that was put out by your department a while ago, it speaks to hire local labour and purchase local materials whenever possible for Manitoba Housing and C ommunity Development projects and initiatives. That was, I think, goal 1 in the multi-year action plan. So it raises some concerns when I get a letter from a constituent or a phone call from a constituent who indicates that they're concerned about the fa ir bidding practices of Manitoba housing in their area, which is St -Lazare, Birtle, Foxwarren area.

The question they've asked me is, if he can clarify: Does Manitoba Housing projects–does anybody that wants to do work for Manitoba Housing have to be a member of MERX? * (16:10) Mr. Bjornson: Well, as mentioned, if it's $100,000 or greater, MERX is the electronic bid service provider that we do use. If it's smaller jobs that the member's referring to, local managers or regional managers for Manitoba Housing will invite tenders, whether it's something as informal as telephone or email quotations.

These are some of the –for services or goods –written invitations or quotations, I should say, for construction services up to $100,000. Goods five to 25 thousand doll ars would require written invitations, and we would get three quotes from local contractors or service providers, and then the choice is made accordingly. So, if there's a particular constituent or issue, and I don't recall if I have received a letter to that end from your constituent, but we could certainly have that discussion. Mrs.

Rowat: Yes, I've just received additional correspondence over the weekend from this individual just asking for details. It's Fouillard Carpets Ltd. in St -Lazare, and they b elong to ISNetworld in which they have to have workers compensation, both Manitoba and Saskatchewan, safety programs like ergonomics, first aid, PPE, work alone policy, workplace violence policy, WHIMIS. So, and they also have a $5- million liability on the ir insurance. So they are a fairly significant player, I guess. They've –I think she had indicated $4 million in sales last year combined in their community of 35 employees.

So they're not just a small mom -and-pop. They're a business that have developed and grown and have to be respected for that. What they've seen is no contracts over the last 10 years, and the listing from your website does show that St -Lazare had a couple of initiatives, couple projects, one in 2012-2013 for $7,800–or $5,764. No proce ss was followed, as you had just shared, which she had assumed would be the type of process that would follow, that there would be an invite put out to local,

1402 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 25, 2014 you know, individuals or service providers, and there was nothing anywhere shown. She also did her homework. She checked with five other individuals or local contractors, and none of them had received notice of that project. So, you know, she's providing a legitimate question here with regard to the process that is open for projects under $100,000.

So, then, is it possible that whoever was making the decision on this tender had actually just shared it with the maintenance staff within their –within that public housing who then took it on himself to do the reno work? Mr. Bjornson : As soon as the mem ber mentioned the name, I do recall now having seen that letter. So that letter that was forwarded to me will be forwarded to the department appropriately, and we can talk to the attending officer and we can have that conversation with the company to see what the issues are and what the issues have been.

And, I'm sorry, if you could repeat the last part of your question; I missed the last part of your question. Mrs. Rowat: The concern that they raised was that, you know, projects like that under a hundre d thousand dollars, if they have gone to the district manager or the district supervisor, it appears that some of them –some of the projects might be undertaken by the maintenance person within the housing unit.

So, you know, if that's the case, then it puts into question, really, whether an invite has been shared with the community or whether it was just shared with the one individual who actually is maintenance and repair of that facility. Mr. Bjornson : Well, it's entirely possible that we would have installed the carpet with our own labour, and I will commit to you to follow up with the individual that had sent the letter. And as I said, as soon as you mentioned the name of the company, I do recall having seen that letter now a few days ago.

So we will be sure to have our tendering folks contact her and we'll follow up on that concern. Mrs. Rowat: If the maintenance person did put – install carpets, you would think that he would just walk down the street, which is, you know, half a block away from Fouillard Carpets, you know, to make a, you know, make an effort at least to use local supplies, local product. You know, so I'm –this is a legitimate concern.

I think that what they've indicated is if they haven't received contracts in the last 10 years, and have s een a number of projects, you know, coming into their community, for example, a, you know, Brandon carpet company coming in and putting carpet into St -Lazare public housing. You know, that raises a lot of concerns, and again, you know, you're also the Minister responsible for Community Development.

Coming from Gimli, I know that if you had seen a, you know, Winnipeg vehicle coming in with a product that is available in your own community, you'd be asking questions as well with regard to the process and to e nsure that they were at least given fair treatment in the bid process. Mr. Bjornson : Well, I thank the member for that. And certainly, wherever possible, I do understand that we try to engage local providers and–whether it's providers of goods or services . With –or in some cases, we do bulk buys of carpet or flooring or other materials that–in efforts to save money.

And if there was a bulk buy –I'm not sure if the member said that this–for this particular project it was a Brandon company that did provide the carpet. I'm not sure if we did a bulk buy with that Brandon company or not, but that's one of the things that we do do on occasion to provide –to get the best value for the dollar and save money. So–but, again, the concern being raised, we will certainly follow up, and I'll commit to that. Mrs. Rowat: Thank you, the minister, for that. When you indicated you look at bulk buy, then there obviously would be a tender process for that.

So I'm wondering if you would be able to provide me with some details on bulk buys for different materials such as windows, carpet, siding, roofing supplies–the list of companies that you have and the contracts that would have been awarded in 2011, 2012 and 2013? * (16:20) Mr. Bjornson: Well, if it was a bulk buy of goods of $25,000 or greater, that would be posted on MERX. Goods of five to 25 thousand takes three written quotations. Services or goods of $1,000 to $5,000 could be telephone calls or emails, as I mentioned before. So that's the process that we do follow.

If the member's asking for all of these contracts from 2011, 2012, 2013, that will take a significant amount of time to do that, given the volume of refreshes and new builds that we have been engaged in, but we will look at what we can provide for the member. Mrs. Rowat: I would like, specifically, anything over $100,000. And that's on 'merc,' you're saying?

March 25, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1403 So that's on–so then I would then also like details on the expenditures that are listed in Manitoba Housing specific to the communities that are listed, whether they would have been outfitted–I guess I'll put it this way. Foxwarren is a community that is very close to St-Lazare. It had an actual expenditure cost of $195,615. Now, that, obviously, would put it over the $100,000 with 'merc' unless that contract was split into different contracts.

I know that that would cover six units that are in Foxwarren and they would have gotten windows, doors, siding and roof. So six units at $195,000. That's about $32,000 per unit. That's pretty rich. So I would like to know if you would be able to provide me the details on the products that were used, who got the contract, the details on that, because, to me, that is a significant amount of money. Mr. Bjornson : We will gladly prov ide the information requested on the Foxwarren project. Mrs.

Rowat: And if I can get a list of bulk purchases under the $100,000 'merc' –I can do the 'merc' search –anything under $100,000 that have been awarded for bulk purchasing in the last two years. Mr. Bjornson : We'll provide the member with the information. I hope she can appreciate that this would be a significant amount of information, and it would take some time, and I don't anticipate we'll do it before you call a vote on my salary. Mrs. Rowat: And anything that I've taken–that you've taken as notice, I do follow up with the departments.

I haven't received my Family Services questions that were taken as notice last year yet, and I've been asking for them for several months, so I know the track rec ord, but I'll be persistent, I guess, is what I will say. Thank you. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): And I have several questions. Let me start with –the department has, I know, a goal of 1,500 homes. Now, how many of those are built and how many are yet to be built, and when will the ones which are yet to be built be completed? Mr. Bjornson : Yes, with the 1,500 commitments, we have several publicly announced projects as of February 28th of 2014.

A number are in progress, a number are completed, for a tot al approved capital funding of $200,565,289. The list is quite extensive in terms of, I think, 14 projects alone in Winnipeg, three in Brandon, we have Camperville, Dauphin, Gimli, Grunthal, La Broquerie, Oakbank, Portage la Prairie, Riverton, Sprague, Ste . Anne, Steinbach, Swan River, Virden, Winkler and Winnipeg Beach. Many of these are family units, many of these are seniors units.

I don't have the exact number of the units per project but I believe the total committed is–for the –this is the affordable now –or, wait – yes, so these–the commitment was two -prong, the 1,500 affordable and 1,500 social housing units. And we were at –1,242 was the number that we had earlier, I believe. An Honourable Member: Mr. Chairperson, 24– 1,224. Mr. Bjornson: Okay, I thank the member for that; 1,224 was the number we said earlier–and others that will be in progress that we will see come to fruition this year. Mr. Gerrard: The minister's provided a lot of information but without actually answering.

How many are–of those are built, how many of–and when will the ones which are not yet built be completed? Mr. Bjornson : Yes, there are 744 units that are complete, 332 that are currently under way and 367 that are yet to start, but they're at various stages of progress in the design and tendering stage. So that's the number. Mr. Gerrard: You've answered one question, but the second one, when will the buildings be completed, you haven't answered.

And, you know, while you're getting that information, the second question that I w anted was on the transitional housing program for the –which is important for the drug treatment court. What's its status currently? Mr. Bjornson: We'll–with respect to when we –will the others be built, certainly, as the member knows, it's not spring yet. And, of course, the construction season is at the mercy of our weather. There are some projects that will be starting soon, I would suspect, in ter ms of the construction.

I happened to be out in Altona the other day where the contractor likes the cold weather, and they've got the footing and foundation in, and they're ready to go on a seniors housing unit there. But, of course, it is weather dependent and it is –and there are a number of other variables that do come into effect with respect to the housing–or the construction of the housing. But I do know that I'll be cutting a lot of ribbons in the next little while with the number of housing projects that are complete.

1404 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 25, 2014 Now, as far as the transitional housing is concerned, we have engaged a lot of community members in a strategy, talking about homelessness, and, of course, it is the ones who find themselves chronically homeless that are most susceptib le to issues–barriers around employment or sustainable housing. * (16:30) But I do know that, having toured the Bell Hotel recently with my colleague, the Minister of Healthy Living, I got to see first -hand a project that is extremely successful in terms of addressing those who are chronically homeless and in transition, many who are suffering from addictions issues or some mental health issues.

For those tenants, we've seen significant reduction in visits to the emergency wards. We've seen one particular individual who had been a resident there who is back on his feet, took some courses, got his high school equivalency, took training and is gainfully employed in rural Manitoba right now. So it's a very good example of some of the transitional housing that we provide and an excellent model.

There are a number of other initiatives that we've undertaken, as well, I could speak to, and River Point lodge is another example and it's being developed with the AMM or AFM, Addictions Foundation of Manitoba, for supporting additional clients as well. But these are –you know, we have homelessness outreach mentors, we have community housing supports to the Canadian Mental Health Association, Project Breakaway with two outreach co-ordinators who are looking at case m anagement for individuals.

So there's a multi -faceted strategy to assist individuals who are chronically homeless, who might be for a variety reasons, whether it's mental health or addictions. Mr. Gerrard: I'd ask the minister what's the status of the HOUSINGFirst program. Mr. Bjornson : Yes, the HOUSINGFirst is not a program per se, but it's rather an approach, and it's an approach that involves working with a lot of different community organizations and non- profit organizations working with different hea lth–regional health authorities.

It's a program that's more of a supportive–we're supportive of the program, I should say, and we're going to be working with a number of different agencies to find ways to ensure that people are successfully tenanted and sustained as tenants–or maintained and sustained as tenants. So it's more of a approach as opposed to a program. Mr. Gerrard: Yes, on page 44, the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation capital program, funded under The Loan Act authority, is $179 million. What's not shown here is the debt servicing or the interest charges on the loans that Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation has.

Where would that interest be –or information be? And how much would the debt servicing charges be for–estimated for 2014-2015? Mr. Bjornson : Debt servicing is $67.7 million on new builds for '14-15. That includes 26.7 on original builds, 0.8 on new builds, 20.9 on betterments. That's for direct -managed housing. It includes betterments on sponsor-management housing for 3.1, 5.5 on new builds for sponsor -managed and 10.7 for original build on sponsor-managed, and this will be available in our annual report in the financial statements. Mr.

Gerrard: Is that the annual report of the department or the Manitoba Housing Renewal Corporation? Mr. Bjornson: The financial statements are included in the annual report for the department for Manitoba Housing Renewal Corporation. Mr. Gerrard: And where will that–does that appear in the budget? Mr. Bjornson : Actually, if the member refers to page 33 in the Estimates, where you see housing details of subappropriation, Estimate of Expenditures, the number would be included under housing operations under the direct managed response for managed lines for expenditures. Mr.

Gerrard: So on this page 33, the debt -servicing costs are somehow mixed in with other costs, or is this part of what is the transfer payments to the MHRC, the 67 million that's at the bottom? Mr. Bjornson: Again, if you're referring to page 33, and you look at the items

A) and items B), the transfer payments to Manitoba Housing Renewal Corporation, then item

B) the portable housing benefit and emergency shelter assistance, that's all that's v oted off. At the end of the bottom line is seventy billion, nine hundred and two thousand, and what you see above that column is how we got to that particular number with respect to the revenues – the rental revenues versus the transfer payments. A more detailed analysis could be provided in the financial statements and we–if the member wanted to take a look at last year's financial statements and get a sense of how we derived these numbers that appear in previous expenditure Estimates from '13- 14, it'd

March 25, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1405 be easier to see that picture. And, as you see in the footnote, the increase to direct managed is attributed to an increase in debt -servicing costs, grants in lieu of taxes and general operating costs. So I'm not sure if that provides any more clarity or answer s the question, but the detail would be found in the financial statements. Mr. Gerrard: The report for last year will provide the information for last year. Would it be possible to get a itemization of where the debt -servicing costs are in these lines specifically? * (16:40) Mr.

Bjornson : Yes, that was the numbers that I had referred to earlier with the direct -managed betterments of $20.9 million; new buildings, 0.8; original b uild 26.7. So a total cost debt servicing for direct-managed properties is $48.4 million. For sponsor-managed betterments of $3.1 million; new buildings, $5.5 million and original building, 10.7 for a total debt servicing of 19.3. And you add the two together of direct -managed and sponsor-managed, it's $67.7 million. Mr. Gerrard: Thank you. Mrs. Mitchelson: On page 37 under Community Assistance, there's a grant assistance line of $1.704 million.

Could the minister explain what falls under that grant assistance line? Mr. Bjornson: Yes, that funding of grant assistance is provided to the Manitoba Community Services Council for the grant program. Mrs. Mitchelson: So that's the Manitoba Community Services Council. Could the minister explain that? I believe that that's a non -profit organization that distributes grants to the community. Maybe just if we could indicate what the Manitoba Community Services Council does. Is that money transferred directly?

Is that for their administrative costs or do they have other money that they distribute out to the community? Mr. Bjornson : Manitoba Community Services Council has allocated funds from bingos and other – or allocates funds and/or bingo events, as I have volunteered many times myself with different community organizations to work the bingos, and that was before we banned smoking in t here but we survived. But they provide this service to non- profit volunteer community services. They provide – or organizations–social service, recreation and health-related organizations.

Grant is 100 per cent of revenues and the MCSC has administrative cap determined by the Province which cannot be more than 12 per cent of the revenues. Mrs. Mitchelson: A little difficulty following that. So the $1.7 million is money from where? This is from general revenue that goes and what does it support at the community? Is this –it's a grant to the Community Services Council for them to distribute or is it a grant that covers administrative costs? What is it for? Mr. Bjornson : Yes.

The funding comes from Housing and Community Development, and the 12 per cent cap is included within that $1.7 million, and the bingos that they administer is separate but separate from that $1.7 million but included in their portfolio for providing that grant allocations. Mrs. Mitchelson: And that number has decreased, I believe, to the Community Services Council over the years. Am I correct? Mr. Bjornson : There was a reduction last year of $300,000. The funding has remained the same this year.

One of the things that we were looking at in government was the agencies that we had had involved in providing grants –or the programs that we had involved in providing grants, such as Community Places Program, which the member is aware of. The Community Places Program was focusing on a lot of capital or community infrastructure investments, and we decided to streamline that and have one agency that would be responsible for delivering on community capital programs.

The Manitoba Community Services Council's focus is on programming and equipment needs for sports programs or whatever the case might be, or community gardens, things of that nature, I believe. But the focus has been to bring infrastructure–community infrastructure programs under the roof of Community Places Program.

That said, we recognize that on occasion, emergent needs shoul d arise where organizations would need funding to replace community assets or support–the renovation of community assets that might have suffered some type of damage or whatever the case might be, that they find themselves with emergency needs for capital investments in community assets. And the Manitoba council for community service–or Manitoba Community Services Council will still have some opportunity

1406 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 25, 2014 to explore those options and support emergent requests because they don't fall within the deadlines of Community Places Program for applications for emergent needs. So, that was a matter of a more streamlined provision of services around capital grants. That was one of the reasons why we looked at that reduction at the Manitoba service council – Community Services Council. Mrs. Mitchelson: I know this is before the minister's time, but if I look back to the annual report of March 31st, 2011, the grant assista nce line was at $5.277 million.

And the footnote to that indicates that the variance is primarily the result of an allocation to the–to Manitoba's participation in the 2010 Olympics. I guess I –it sounds to me like there was maybe over $3 million in this grant assistance line that was for the Olympics. And I'm just wondering whether the department can explain what that has to do with the Community Services Council and why it would be in this line in the Department of Housing? * (16:50) Mr.

Bjornson: With the Cabinet shuffle, there were a few changes that occurred with respect to the Minister of Housing and Community Development and the Minister for Family Services. Minister for Family Services did also take with her the responsibilities for All Charities , United Way and Volunteer Manitoba. So, yes, the Olympic money that was spended on the –spent on the Olympics was included in that time –or, pardon me, in that line –as well, but it was not a very large number. The bulk of those dollars went with All Charities, United Way and Volunteer Manitoba. Mrs.

Mitchelson: So is the minister indicating, then, that there was money allocated to the Olympics out of the Department of Housing with the former minister's responsibilities from other areas besides this one line in the budget? Mr. Bjornson: We'll have to do some work on that particular issue. Believe it was before the time of a few people sitting at the table here today. So we'll do some homework on that matter and get back to you on that. Mrs.

Mitchelson: I'm wondering, while we're looking at it, whether there could be a breakdown of the grant assistance that was provided and what the detail of that $3 million or so was in this budget line. If we could get–undertake to get that for me, please. Mr. Bjornson : Yes. The numbers that I have for the adjusted vote reflect the grant assistance for the United Way of $3,270,000, grant assistance for Volunteer Manitoba –again to Family Services – $61,000 and the grant assistance to the All Charities Campaign to Family Services, $137,000. Mrs. Mitchelson: I don't think that r eally answered my question.

The footnote doesn't seem to coincide with the answers that the minister has given me. It says it was for the Olympic Games. It says clearly in the footnote in the annual report. So I'm not going to belabour it at this point in time. I'm just wondering if the department might be able to get back to me at some point with some rationale or justification for that. And with that, I think I'm ready to go line by line. Mr. Bjornson: My apologies. Yes, we will get you that information on the –that reference to the Olympics. Mr. Chairperson: Now we go line by line. Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes.

Just one more comment before we go back to it. I just want to thank the department for the hard work that you do, I know, on a regular basis, for all o f us in the Legislature and specifically, of course, for ministers. It's always a challenge when there's a new minister and a new deputy. So you've got–there's a major learning curve there. I look forward to, you know, continuing to work with you and thank you for the good work that you do on an ongoing basis. And I just wanted to put those comments on the record. Thanks for your co-operation. Mr. Chairperson: Okay. Now we put the question on the resolutions.

Resolution 30.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $70,902,000 for Housing and Community Development, Housing, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2015. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 3 0.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $6,290,000 for Housing and Community Development, Community Development , for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2015. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 3 0.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding

March 25, 2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1407 $141,000 for Housing and Community Development, Costs Related to Capital Assets , for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2015. Resolution agreed to. The last item to be considered for the Estimates of this department is item 31 point –30.1.(a), the minister's salary, contained in the resolution 30.1. At this point, we request –the minister's staff already have left. The floor is open for questions. Mrs.

Mitchelson: And I just want to, at the outset, say again thank you to the minister for his endeavouring to answer questions pretty straight up and straightforwardly. I really appreciate that. There are some issues. Obviously, we have another chance to cover everything. I think that probably, with another year under his belt and maybe a little more time as the critic, there will be some more in-detail issues that we may need to discuss in next year's Estimates.

But I just want to say that, you know, I appreciate the work that his departmental officials do on a regular basis, and all of those within the civil service that really do support us in the Legislature but do, I believe, the best that they can do, certainly, based on government policy and implementation of that policy, do implement and work hard on a daily basis. So I, with those few comments, just would like to again say thank you. And we are prepared to pass the departmental Estimates and the minister's salary. He got away quite easily this year. Mr.

Chairperson: Resolution 30.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $ 1,786,000 for Housing and Community Development, Administration, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2015. Resolution agreed to. INFRASTRUCTURE AND TRANSPORTATION Mr. Chairperson (Mohinder Saran): We have one item to correct. For Hansard purposes, I am going to redo putting the question on resolution 15.3 of the Estimates of the Department of Infrastructure and Transportation.

Resolution 15.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to H er Majesty a sum not exceeding $53,091,000 for Infrastructure and Transportation, Government Services Programs , for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2015. Resolution agreed to. HOUSING AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT Mr. Chairperson (Mohinder Saran): This concludes the Estimates for Housing and Community Development. The hour being 4–hour being 5 o'clock, and committee rise. FINANCE * (14:40) Mr. Chairperson (Rob Altemeyer): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now r esume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Finance. As had been previously agreed, questioning for this department will proceed in a truly global manner. The true –and the floor is now open, truly, for questions Mr. Cameron Friesen (Morden -Winkler): Yesterday, we were speaking about the C.D. Howe Institute report, showing that Manitoba is third from the top in terms of cumulative spending overruns measuring a period of fiscal years –10 fiscal years.

I would also mention for the record that the Manitoba percentage average is indicated at probably what would be 22 per cent on this bar graph; it could be 23 per cent. And that was the discussion that we were in when the Estimates concluded yesterday. I wanted to invite the minister to just speak a little bit more on the content of this report. And there was a policy recommendation towards the end that I wanted to direct her attention to. This, of course –this report is measuring how senior governments do at sticking to their budgets over time.

Of course, the report concludes by saying there is much more to be done. As a matter of fact, it says, a concluding call to do better, and there are various recommendations made within the report of how to do better. But this directly pertains to the conversation that we were having on Friday last week, when we were discussing at some length the issue of what are the financials that are available to us during the context – in the context of the departmental Estimates period.

And the minister seems to have taken exception to my comment that I wanted to be able to reference our conversations against the actual spending for the

1408 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 25, 2014 2012-13 year, and that would provide a good anchor point, a reference point, for us to have these conversations. The minister indicated that that was not information that department would have at the table. And I said, you know, in a perfect world it would be really helpful to have that information. I was interested to note that in the report just released this week, there is–this issue is addressed by the authors of the report in a

section called, Estimates should match public accounts. And in this section, basically, what the au

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	40-3-35b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	40th 3rd hansardpdf 35b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e53009265c146f28b685eb1e9a5f23812180fe6e

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).