PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT House of As~embly For the period.: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. , March 1, 1977

March 1, _1 977 Tape 628 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR.. SPEAKEF : Order, please! STATE~TS BY HINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER ~100P-ES: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if the Leader of the Opposition is here today or not.

I am sorry he is not in his seat IB-1 at th:i.s time • After the announcement of the private placement bond issue with Alberta yesterrlay,which could only be made in the Rouse at six o'clock to coincide with the statement being made by the Premier of Alberta in Edmonton at two-thirty when their-House opened, there was verv _little time,I suppose, fo~yeople to analyze what wa~ said and so on.Buti find it most unfortunate that there should be a negative react:ion to this particular announcement. I would ask- aLl hon. members to take it in the spirit in which it was meant.

The fact is that the ten per cent ~1hich the Leader of the Opposition said was too high is in fact an exceptionally good rate for the credit rating of this Province. A private placement is usually considerably higher than a market placement where in this case - and the reason for that of course is because of the exposure on the market and because of commission that is paid to the consortium and so on,-in this case the private placement was at the same rate or even a bit better than we could get on the public market. one year paper. It also happens to be a twenty- Mr.

Speaker, the European issue that was done some ten days ago, there was no mention of it as far as debate in the House itself was concerned. I do not know if it was because it was Alberta or because it was the form of government ·in this Province or what·- - that prompted the reaction from the Leader of the Opposition when,in fact~ we announced just ten days ago the money we raised in Europe • He thought that was fine. I find it almost incredible. I do not know if the members of the Opposition can tell me or not ,But when he gets up in the morning, does he hope it rains or what? I mean I just do not r 1.71.8

:t-i.arch 1, 1977 Tape 628 IB-2 PREMIER MOORES: -- know. But the fact is, Sir, that the European issue, there was no mcm._~~o!l _of !~ The Quebec scene in Canada has, in fact)made it difficult because of the uncertainty it has created about Canada, not just about' _Ne~~d~~dl--~ - !~has made it difficult for borrowing in the international markets. I think this loan yesterday was - Alberta has the money which they want to loan. We have a borro~_~g programme, Europe, Canada and the U.S. which we have to have to provide even the minimum of services we have in this Province.

We are at a difficult time in borrowing circumstances in Canada. For twe sister provinces to be able to get together, for one province to 1719

March 1, 1977 Tape No. 629 PREMIER MOORES : show a reaffirmation in the confidence they have in Canada, I think, Sir, that is nothing but good for this coimtry. , _ _ I am very sorry the Leader of the Opposition is not here as I say, because I am sure in his own heart he must feel the same way although I am very sorry about his reaction yesterday. But, Sir, the fact is this is a step in the right direction for Canada and we are fortunate to be part of it. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Speaker, I assume that the amount in ~ question is in connection with next year's needs or next --.:._ year's borrowing programme. If it is may I ask the Premier NM- 1 if this was borrowed under autho~ty of the Loan and Guarantee Act that passed in the current financial year and under authority of this --year' s-act: : _ ~ut, in actual fact ,for use in the coming financial year, is that the situation? - ···--- r-· - EREMIER MOORES: The situation is that there I _is _- authority granted by this House for $197 million last year. That goes on until the new loan bill is debated in this House.

That $50 million fits within that $197 million but)in fact,the money will be used for next year but under the authority of the House we have every right to borrow it this year. MR.

SMALLWOOD: I thank the Premier for this information , it is exactly what I assumed. · But I thought I understood from the Minister of Finance that the full total had been reached· in the amount that was borrowed in Europe two or three weeks ago,that that ·exhausted the authority granted by the House to the government to borrow in the current financial year and what I was wondering was whether in fact this $50 million from Alberta is to come - is it a loan or is a prospective loan, which will be authorized by 1720

March 1, 1977 Tape No. 629 NM- 2 MR. SMALLWOOD: a loan bill to be brought in in the current MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, as I understand it, and the Minister of Finance can correct me on this,that the amount borrowed in Europe looks after our budgeted amount for th~s year but in -· - effect the borrowing ~~thority by the Rouse was in excess of that, and whilst legally we can borrow the fact is we are borrowing towards next year. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, I gather from what the hon. gentleman has said that the authority given by the Rouse in the Loan and Guarantee Bill which became

an act, is authority to borrow more than the government programmed. PREMIER MOORES: That is right. MR. SMALLWOOD: They programmed $197 million, or $196 million point something, tha~7they had in borrowing $20-million in Europe the other day that exhausted th~ programme of actual borrowing though they have authority in the act to borrow more and it is under that authority that they are borrowing this $50 million. Is that the case? MR. DOODY: I do· not . ·know if this is in order but I will try to clarify the situation for hon. members. MR. NEARY: Just on a point of information Your Honour. MR.

SPEAKER: A point of order I presume. MR. NEARY: A point of order, Sir. Several times during last session I rose to· say a few words on various ministerial -~---- statements and I was shot down by Your Honour. But this session, Sir, we have precedent. The member for Exploits (Dr. Twomey) the other day commented on a ministerial statement. The member for Twillingate,I think)commented on a ministerial statment. Now we have the Premier making a ministerial statement and we have the Minister of Finance commenting on it. Now does that open it up, Sir?

Does that leave it wide open so that poor old members like myself can have a few words tool· ---- --- 1.721.

March 1, 1977 Tape No. 629 NM- 3 MR. DOODY: On that point of order, if I may. MR. SPEAKER: Is the hon. gentleman speaking to the point of order. MR. DOODY: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: I will hear the Minister of Finance, then the bon. member. MR. DOODY: It is not necessary for me to elaborat~ at this time. I can wait for the Question period and go into it if the question is raised at that time. I would be only too happy to answer it. And I think that may be the proper procedure to follow. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr.

Spea~r, it has been the accepted practice ~ that the Opposition reacts to a ministerial statement and in this particular case the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) is reac-ting on behalf of this side of the House and, you know_, ~. 1722

March 1,1977 Tape 630 AH-1 MR. WHITE: we understand that he is allowed to make a few comments and ask some questions, so that is what he is doing. MR. SPEAKER: On the point of order brought up, first I must ~ clarify a factual or an allegation as to a fact, and that was the hon. member for LaPoile stated that previously · in this se~sion _ other hon. members had commented on a Ministerial Statement.

The statement_ that they are referring to and this is from memory was one by the hon~ Minister of Justice 7 as I recall,of condolence and sympathy on behalf _ of the Newfoundland people"':" an accident tliat had· occurred in Central Newfoundland, an helicopter accident- and although the hon. minister got up after I had said statements by ministers, that technically was not a Ministerial Statement.)-it.. was_ the hon. gentlemen did not catch my eye before I, in fact,read out statements by ministers. It was an expression of condolence.

The hon. member for Exploits had a few words 1 as it happened in his area, and I believe at least one . hon. gentleman to my right i ,th~ .. hon. member for Conception Bay South did. - But that was not in a technical sense a Ministerial S~atement and what happened there does not alter the rules with respect to ministerial statements which are that the leader of a recognized group,or a spokesman on his behalf,may make brief comments and ask for explanations, and that is what I consider the hon. member for Twillingate is doing.

He is asking for information, and at the Premier's acquiescence the Minister of Finance is answering on his behalf. I do not see that it would be an unusual occurence.If it were to be a long series of questions, it would be better left for the Quesd.tni.

Period~· .But· as I understand it, the hon. member for Twillingate is making brief -comments, and asking for explanations and instead of . -getting the explanations at the end of his comments, the ministry_ are providing them to him during his comments .Presumably this will ---- --assist the hon. member in his comments _,anc!. ~ do not see that there is anything wrong with it. ~ut obviously if there, were a lo_!lg _series 1723

March 1,1977 Tape 630 AH-2 MR.. SPEAKER: of questions and answers, it would be better for' the Question Period, but at this particular time I do not see that the p_~~ce~~:t:.~ is out of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, on a further of ordeE, Sir. I am not splitting hairs, I am not ~rgui_p. g about the hon. member for Twillingate asking questions of the minister that made the ~!ininsterial Statement, but,Sir, in my opinion, the Premier who made the M1nisterial Statement has the right to consult with the Minister of Finance, and the Minister of Finance can give the Ron. the Premier the information and the Ron.

Premier will · r~lay _it to the House. But , Sir, to have two ministers answering questions, I mean, this is n_o_t~t-h_e __ o_r_a_l __ Q~u_e_s_t_i_o_n __ P_e_r_i_o~d, Mr. Speaker, and I believe ~ that the~nswers to the questions put by my bon. friend should be answeree by the Premier. Now the Minister of Finance is sitting next to him, the hon. Minister of Finance can give the Premier whatever information he thinks he should have to answer the questions.

But in my opinion, Sir, and I am not questioning Your Honour's ruling, this is another point of order, it is the Premier, the . gentleman who made the Ministerial Statement , who is the one who should answer the questions, or clarify any situations that may be put to him. MR.

SPEAKER: On that second point of order, I would have to have the Hansards checked on this .. -- I do not think it is the wish of ~ the bon. members that I adjourn now to do so ,but I do believe that within our precedents there will be instances whereby a question of explanation , asked qf the Premier or a minister, that information had ' then been supplied on his behalf by another minister. I would have to have the Hansards checked on that but to the best of my knowledge, there would be former practice for that.

And I think it is a question of degree • If several ministers were to get in or more than one, this is on a financial matter, the Minister of 1724

March 1, 19 77 Tape 630 AH-3 MR. SPEAKER: Finance, is giVing infonna.tion on behalf of tee Premier, and to the best of my knowledge, · there would be "Precedent for that _ •. As I say it is a question of degree, if nume_;o~}JS people were to get involved then obviously it would not be proper. MR.. SPEAKER: Ron. Mitii'ster of Finance. ~ 1725

March 1, 1977 Tape 631 PK - 1 Mr. Doody: As I said there is no need really for the -hassle at alr, the question can be asked in the Oral Question period, and I would be only too happy to supply the information or I can provide it now whichever the House prefers. --1-- SOME HON. MEMBER: Oral Question period. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Twillingate. MR. sMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. the Premier and ~the hon. Minister of Finance for their response to my questions which I asked by way of getting some information, to enable me to make a very, very brief comment on the raising of the loan.

What I gather is, well first I ought to say, Mr. Speaker, that Newfoundland about ten or fifteen years ago brought itself. into conformity with all the other provinces of Canada by introducing and passing legislation giving the government authority to go in on the market at any moment, a favourable market, when the favourable opportunity arose to seize that opportunity and float a bond issue.

But the present administration changed that, they brought legislation in here changing it, so that every time they borrow they must do it on authority of a specific bill that has been brought in and been debated and adopted and become

an Act. So what I was trying to find out, was whether this $20 million was in fact borrowed under a statute that was passed ------ authorizing the government to raise money? And the answer I get is that it was •. Which makes me draw the conclusion in view of the Minister of Finance's statement a couple of weeks or so ago that the loan raised in Euro-dollars completed the borrowing programme for the current year, for the current year,bringing it to the -- projected amount that they were going to spend which is $196.5 millions. In the light of that I assumed that the $50 million must be for the coming year, starting April 1st. and that it was borrowed on authority of

an Act of the House that was passed. Arid that being so it only means that the first $50 million of what is to be borrowed next year has been raised and raised within Canada from a sister ~ 1726

March 1, 1977 Tape 631 PK - 2 Mr. Smallwood: province. And that seems to be clear enough, and there does not seem to be much room for doubt, except the one, of course, which will be better expressed when the budget debate comes, and that is the wisdom of all this borrowing. PRESENTING REPORTS OF STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of ~ourism. MR. T. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I wish to tab.le the Tourist Establishment Regulations for 1976. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MR. W. HOUSE: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to table the answer to Question ~~· the Order Paper of February 8, as requested by the hon. member from Terra Nova (Mr. Lush), and:that has to do -with the school tax authorities. Also the answerr to Question No. 81 on ,.. - the Order Paper of February 9, and Question No. 95, February 10, ~ ~ asked by the hon. member from LaPoile (Mr. Neary). These two have to do with the Educational Research Institute and the Student Appeals Board. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs and the Environment. MR. MURPHY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to reply briefly to the hon. member from Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) with reference ~:.:::i::s--=:.f.=:e:a=.r:.s _:, _wi=t=h=-r=-e=f:.:e:.:r:.:e::n:.:c=e=-:t:..:o:........:t::h:..:e=--=D:..::am=--==a=t:......-=R=e:..:::d:........=I=n:.:::d:.:::i:.:::an=-.=L=a::k:.e. And I thank him for his letter to me just explaining. And I might say that I did consult this morning with our'hydrologist, we have one qualified hydrologist in the department, Dr. W.

Ullah, and he assured that as far as he was concerned the Dam there was potentially in shape enough to handle any flood waters that might occur in the area. And if there are any further fears then again he expressed the wish that he would -like the hon. meUiber to -go·· over . again; -and perhaps go into the whole thing in detail so he could give the hon. member some background on the thing. And while I· am nn that, Sir, 1727

Jfllrch 1, 1977 Tape no. 632 Page 1 - MS Mr. Murphy. I would just like to say this--I do not know if I tried to make myself clear yesterday - that during the flood waters there I had a gentleman from my department fly over the area just to get some -idea of what was happening. And in this morning's news, I have a quote here,"'I£ that dam were to go, Badger would be under water," Mr.

Flight observed. ~I do not think there is any fear of the dam breaking,' the minister said. 'We had a man fly over it in a helicopter."' So if there is any fear of flood just let me know, and I will get someone to fly over it in a helicopter, and that will do away with all the fear of . the dam breaking. And with reference to another que~tion, I believe the . ---bon. member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) with reference to a qu~s~ion of the Minister of Transportation re car wrecks - was that the question? MR. HODDER: Yes. MR. MURPHY: I did get a statement here from my department with .. reference to this.

This was, as the minister explained, the Minister of Tran sporta~ion: - the funding de~artment was in Highways at that time of transportation and the balance of checking at1d what~ot _____ _ was in the Department of the Environment. And the statement just says this: "The agreement between government and affiliated Marine, Metal and Salvage Limited. with respect to the abandoned vehicle programme provides that a sum of $27.50 be paid to the company for the collection, processing and disposal of each ab'andoned vehicle.

This amount is payable as follows; seventy-five per cent upon collection and processing - that is flattening - and twenty-five per cent upon disposal. During the initial stages of the abandoned vehicle programme some 1,611 vehicles were inadvertently one hundred per cent paid for upon collection, and not disposed of until a later date. This matter has since been corrected as follows; 879 vehicles were subsequently 1728

March 1, 1977 Tape no. 632 Page 2- MS Mr. Murphy. disposed of at no further cost to government. In other words they shipped out 879 for which they did not get the twenty-five per cent, which under the agreement they would be entitled to had they not received it at the collection period. The balance of the twenty-five per cent overpayment in respect to the remaining 732 vehicles was subsequently recovered from future payments to the company during 1976-1977.

In other words where they were entitled to seventy-five per cent, they only got fifty per cent, because of the fact that they had been overpaid due to some processing of their invoice in the d~partment between Transportation and the Department of the Environment. So as we stand now, we have notified th~ Auditor General of this fact, and he is aware of it. The account is square now as far as collection and payments are concerned." Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and CoDDilunications. MR.. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, in reply to an oral question placed yesterday by the hon. gentleman from Baie Verte - White Bay ~ . (Mr. Rideout) with regards to the licencing of snowmobiles and all-terrain vehi~les. The decision of the department is to the effect that there will be no extension--to the deadline,which was yesterday's date,for licening of these vehicles.

However, in cases where applications have been made to the department up until and prior to yesterday, and where the applicant can show proof that the application has been filed by means, for example, of a receipt or money order, that these proofs will be used as an authority to operate these vehicles. So I have asked my colleague, the Minister of Justice to inform the law enforcement agencies accordingly. ~ 1729

March 1, 1977 Tape no. 632 Page 3 - MS ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR •. NOLAN: A question for the Minister of Finance regarding the announced loan yesterday from the Province of Alberta, ~and it is in two parts. One, is there a brokerage firm involved ~ in the loan or will the money come direct from government to government? If there is a brokerage firm who __ is _:(.t_and _w}la_t_is .the cost involved? ... ~d ~.i! - t_!lere are le~~':rvices ~volved is that done by the Department of Justice or another legal firm? And again who is it? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR.

DOODY: The first part of the question, I think, was, ~is this a direct borrowing from government to government or is there a brokerage house involved? It is a direct borrowing from the officials of the Department of Finance on behalf of government with their counterparts in the Province of Alberta. There is no fee involved. That in itself, of course, is a substantial saving, and that is one of the reasons I am wearing my Alberta necktie today. SOME HON. MEMBERS:. Oh, oh! MR. DOODY: The second half of the question if gentlemen will please control themselv~s. Was there a legal service provided?

The Department of Justice 1730

}1'_arch 1 , 19 77 Tape 633 IB-1 MR. DOOD'!: as always advises the department on all borrowing programmes and all borrowing processes. Obviously this one could not have taken place unless the government of Alberta and ourselves had gotten the legal opinion from the Department of Justice that the borrowing was indeed within the limits of the Loan Act that is presently operative in the House and the opinion of the Department of Justice acquiesced and agreed to by their legal counterparts in Alberta, that this borrowing was indeed within the context of the present Loan Bill.

I can elaborate on that Loan Bill thing if you want me to. ~IIR. SPE~_KER: A supplementary. The han. member for Lewisporte. ~. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the Premier in connection _ \ .with this particular loan. In Alberta the Premier, Premier Lougheed, ~announced this on live television yesterday because they have been smart enough to get television into their House. But you know the impression seemed to be left on the National News which I saw last night - and I saw both National Newscasts -in one it said that Alberta was coming I to the aid of financially stricken Newfoundland.

I was ~vondering if the Premier, number one, has a copy of Mr.1:ougheed's statement and number two, if the Province was havi~g difficulty borrowing elsewhere. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: First of all I have got a copy of Premier Lougheed's statement. I have not got it with me, Mr. Speaker. That ~·ras not ~he intent. I think it is very fair to say that here was an agency with money to lend and a borro,.rer who needed to borro~r money.

The fact is that the lender in this case happened to have the confidence in both the future of this Province, the lender, they happened to have the confidence in the administration and they also thought they were loaning on a good bet. Now they may not like that on the other side,~r. Speaker, but after the comments from the Leader of the Opposition•last night one would suggest he knows more about - :MR. snruo~s: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. member interjected on a point of order. I have to draw to the han.

Premier's attention that his latter remarks were of the nature of debate. 1.731.

March 1, 1977 Tape 633 IB-2 MR.. SPEAKER : The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the ~inister of Finance ~ if he or any of his colleagues are aware that the financing of the ~egional college at Corner Brook appears to be in some difficulty because of mechanics liens that have been issued a~ainst the property as a result of Group .Systems Limited not payin~ their bills. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: No, Sir, I do not know .anything about Group Systems ~ted.

I have been told that the people who originally built the ' regional college have been trying to refinance the cost of building it and have'been experiencing some difficulty with the refinancing. 1-m. NEARY : Western Realties? MR. DOODY: Yes, whatever t~eir name is. But over and above that I have had no indication about mechanics liens or· nonpayments of debts. Of course I guess in my old honesty I am prepared to say that really is not our concern. It is the builders concern. He have an obligation to pay them an agreed amount of money per year under the lease and this will do.

There are no mechanics liens on the Province that is for sure. ~. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. ¥P .• NEARY: Mr • . Speaker, is the minister aware that Western Realties , the company that the government entered into an agreement with to ~build the re~ional college passed the agreement on to an investment company in Ontario? !s the minister aware of that?

If so, wou the minister indicate to the House if, as a result of these mechanics liens - and there is a whole raft of them do~~ in the registry office - is the government withholding any amounts that are mdng to ~-Testem Realties as a result of Group Systems Limited not paying their bills ' to the various subcontractors and people·who supplied material for the regional college at Corner Brook? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Finance. 1732

March 1, 1977 Tape 633 IB-3 MR. noonY: Mr. Speaker, to the best of my ~ow~edge there are no ~echanics liens or ~ligation · and our no 9~-~e!:_ actions against government. Our commitment has been to the company who put the building up, and you know we are honouring our obligations. Any difficulties or legal obligations that people have taken or feel that they have a right to take against the company is between the company and these people. It is not an obligation of government and I have not been made aware of it. But I guess for that reason, because it is not our direct concern at this time. }IR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~!F.. NEARY: A supplementary question. Would the minister try to straighten me out on mechanics liens that have been issued against the pro~e~x, the regional college in Corner Brook? If the court awards r say the amounts that are owing to these creditors who have taken out mechanics liens would not then they be able to make a claim against the regional college? 1733

March 1, 1977 Tape No. 634 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: and where would the government fit then? What is the legal position of the government then? Would they come and take the furniture out of the college for instance · - . to sa~i~fy __ the mechanics lien. MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! I have to ennunciate the rule that one may not ask a minister for a legal opinion. The bon. Minister of_Finance. MR.

DOODY: All I can say, Sir, is the government will honour all its obligations that it has under any existing agreement and if there are liens or mechanics liens or any other sort of obligation that government is r~spons ~b_l~ _ for then certainly government will honour them, but that is as far as I can go ~h~e th ~g ~~~- the_r~ is some legal opinion to be required then I suggest I refer them elsewhere. - - - ----- - ~ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of saying is,excluding the Argentia and the Port aux Basques ferry and possibly the Bell Island.

The question is, Sir, I wonder if the minister is in a position to inform .the House as to whether there is any' . regulato ·ry body to whom operators have to report to in the event of increasing the fares and whether there is some regulato%1r -- body or agency to whom the residents served by these ferries may appr~ ach in the event that they are not satisfied with the quality of the service by the ferries. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. ! MR. MORGAN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, in our Province, as was debated last week on the Late Show, last Thursday, the same question was --- debated and. it was explainll!!.d then that we have seven ferry services in the Province, one o.f them -being the service to St. Brendan's, whiCh 1734

March 1, 19 77 Tape No. 634 NM- 2 MR. MORGAN: I am sure the han. gentleman from Terra Nova is concerned about, in his own district. -The _re~at:or;z._ _body which is responsible for the adequacy or the satisfaction of the service is the federal regulatory body of the CTC, the Canadian Transportation Commission. So any complaints with regards to the level of service or the adequacy of the service, or the facilities used in that service, these complaints would have to be _____ _ presently taken to the CTC. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary? MR.

LUSH: I want to say I would like to debate the answer or on Thursday, but the thing is I am not familiar with what transpired on - MR. WHITE: It is in the Ransall'd. MR. MORGAN: It is in the Hansaz:d, a full debate on it. MR. LUSH: Okay, well I want to debate the thing on - MR. MORGAN: Yes. MR. LUSH: - that is on Thursday. MR. SPEAKER: The procedure is outlined in the Standing Orders, the han. member will have comply with it. The han. member for Baie Verte - White BAy. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communiciations, and I must say I am very pleased with his answer to my question of yesterday:-~· I wonder if the minister could elaborate a little bit and tell me whether or not the policy as he just announced applies just to isolated communities in the Province, or is it policy to cover the whole Province relative to snowmobile licencing. - --·--- . MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. ·- ·--- -- 1.735

March 1, 1977 Tape No. 634 NM- 3 MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, it is a blanket policy covering all the Province. In other words any person who is caught operating an all-terrain vehicle ,or a snowmobile vehicle as of today and if he cannot show proof that application has been made for a licence, if his machine is not licenced then he is operating that machine illegally. So it .is a blanket policy all over the Province. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans • . MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question . _is to the _ Mi~ister of ~ Transportation and Communiciations.

Hhen Dart Construction went into receivership some small sub-contractors were left not paid for work done. Now it would seem that a lot of this work was done under government sponsored projects. Would the minister advise the House if the government is presently withholding funds, originally due to DaTt. Construction, for disbursement to these small sub-contractors and others who found themselyes left holding the bag,so to speak,when Dart went into receivership. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, to answer the hon. gentleman's question, t first of all may I clarify ~~rt ~~- - his question and that is the company concerned has not declared bankrpptcy, has not that gone into receivership. However, with regard to funds owed ' to that company concern±ng a project that was in connection with the Department of Transportation, a road project in the Bonavista Peninsula area , taking in two districts, Trinity ' r North and Bonavista South ,S~ far the employees connected with that project have•-been paid .There are a t 1.736

March 1, 1977 Tape no. 635 Page 1 - mw Mr. Morgan. number of outstanding bills in particular the trucking people involved. - ~ey ~~ve _Il.~t_ · ~_een paid to date-. A number of bills like, for example, grocery store supplies, service station bills, these kind of items. The present situation is that consultation is taking -place between the Department of Transportation and Commu~ications, the Department of Finance, and the Department of Ju~tice : , mainly based on the fact that the company concerned has not declared bankruptcy. So it is sort of a quasi bankruptcy or receivership situation. MR.

FLIGHT: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, in view of the ' fact that whatever : happened to Dart, ;- whether it was bankruptcy or receivership or wha teve'r, happened over two months ago .Would the minister indicate to the House when the disbursement of those funds will be made? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. MORGAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, as soon as the consul t ations and discussions are concluded between the three departments concerned, and hopefully it will be as soon as possible. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR.

ROWE: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Rural Development, I would like to direct a question to the Premier. Is ..... the Premier aware of the fact that the Minister of Rural Development has been approached by the upper ~riniEY South Development Association or the Society for the Retention of the Sealing Industry for financial assistance to counteract the v1c1oua smear campaign being carried out ---- - - by those who would destroy the sealing hunt?

And if or if not,is the Premier aware of the fact that-has an Order-in-Council been passed for assistance in the amount of $5,000 toward that particular society? ------- 1737

March 1, 1977 tape no. 635 Page ~ - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: The answer is , yes, to the question, Mr. Speaker. ~I thi~ it was done as recently as this morning. The situation is that whilst we cannot do anything as far as the international publicity of people like Greenpeace and Davies and Weber and whoever they may be is concerned because of the massive amount of money that would be created) seeing ~~ t~ey have brought so much brass with them_to this Province, we figured that those who are concerned should be given the opportunity to go to St. Anthony where the action is going to be.

And certainly anything that we can do in a minor way, and it has to be a minor way, unfortunately, to counteract these other people _who -are _co~ng in here, we are try:l.ng to do. MR. ROWE: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A · supplementary. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to commend the Premier and the government for that small amount of assistance.

But in view of the ~ fact that there are a tremendous number of these bleeding hearts coming into this Province and smearing the Newfoundland name, the people of Newfoundland, is the government prepared to undertake some sort of a larger long-range programme to counteract these bleeding r---- hearts? The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, that has been answered, I think, many times in this House before, and as I said, it would cost ~llions of dollars to do what, in effect, is almost an impossible task.

Because to go out on the defensive for an industry even though we in this Province realize the traditional value of that industry and the culture that the industry even evolved from or culture even from the industry - the fact is that to go to Western Europe, to go to Trafalgar Square with billboards, to go to New York, to go to Los Angeles is just a physical impossibility and far too much money, and certainly for the amount of money you would have ·· you could never give it the priority in our spending in the Province. So as much as we understand the hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe) in 1738

March 1, 1977 Tape no. 635 Page 3- mw , Premier Moores. his remarks, the fact is, I think, to be realistic, that cannot be done. What we can do is to try to protect ourselves in the Province and if anyone asks a question stand up and say, why it is important to us. Because I think that we can do, but to sell to little old ladies in white running shoes in Soho may be more difficult. MR. ROWE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROWE: I appreciate what the Premier had. to say, Mr. Speaker, but I was not thinking necessarily of advertising in Europe or in the United States or anywhere else. But these people will be coming - by way of a brief

preamble - these people will be com~g in helicopters and aircraft and w~t have you, and they will obviously be hopscotching all over the Northern Peninsula on the ice floes ; Would the government, for example, give consideration to making the government aircraft or helicopters available to these people to counteract the publicity, ad~rse publicity, right here on our own front, on the sealing front, the ice front? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier.

PREMIER MOORES: I do not know if I got the question absolutely correct or not, because there was more talking around me, Mr. ,Speaker, unfortunately than on the other side of the House. So having said that, I think, MOT regulations and this sort of thing would make that impossible to do anyway. And just to clarify what I said previously, I noticed the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) gave a bit of a ~iver when I said, "The little old ladies and their $2 from Soho," I am sure that there are ladies there who would give $2 as well as receive $2. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile, followed by the han. gentleman for Lewisporte. V MR.. NEARY: ;" Aff~~rs, Sir, to Mr. Speaker, I would like for the Minister of Municipal clarify a statement he made yesterday in connection with the controversy 1739

March 1 , 1977 Tape 636 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: raging between the Mount Pearl Town Council, the minister's department and the Minor Rockey Association. Would the minister tell the House if it is proper, indeed if it is legal for the minister's department to commit financing to an organization other than the Mount Pearl Town Council, and then have the Mount Pearl Town Council pick up the tab and pay out the money wit_hput ha~ing an control over how that money is spent? MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I must point out again that the asking of a legal opin i on is not permitted by the rules, and asking - ~ ~ for government's policy etc. in a particular area is - but the rules are quite clear on that. The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Rousing. MR. J. DINN: Well, Mr. Speaker, just to clarity that situation any monies given to the Town Council of Mount Pearl for the arena -·is done just exactly that way, is done through the Town Council.

The government has guaranteed that the stadium will be given another additional, I believe, through Rehabilitation and Recreation and Municipal Affairs and Housing, $350,000. That will be given to the Town Council, and from the Town Council through to the Recreation Committee. So there is no problem there as I see it. The problem that they have · at the Town Council is_ appare}ltlv they do not believe they are getting the funds. They will in~eed get them, and they should not put it in their budget as a deficit, and that is what should be cleared up. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary ~ MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, -t~e ~inister, of course, is aware that ~he member from Mount Pearl (Mr. N. Windsor) delivered a letter last night to the Tot~ Council signed by Mr. Harold Collins, the Minister of Rehabilitation and Receeation, saying that they were gaing to get $150,000 from that department. But the question I want to put to the minister, Sir, is this - this was only delivered last night, this commitment was made that they now know they are going to get it - 1.740

March 1, 1977 Tape 636 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: but the question is this, the Council had no say at all in how this money was being spent. Now is this the policy of the government to force the Town Council in one case to get a bond issue, and in another case to accept $150,000 to pay bills when they had no say at all, no control over how these bills were incurred . • Is this the policy of the minister's department? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of. Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: Well as far as, Mr.

Speaker, Municipal Affairs and Housing is concerned if the Town Council of Mount Pearl does not want the money because they are unhappy with the way it is being spent then obviously I would be delighted to spend it elsewhere. I SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! . MR. NEARY: A supplementary , the original questioner. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary~ MR.

NEARY: Then is the minister satisfied that the financial statements that have been received from the Mount Pearl Minor Hockey ~Association, is the minister satisfied that they are in'order, that \ they give the details that the minist .er' s officials asked the Town Council of Mount 'Pearl to supply to the minister r-;-departme~ MR.~ SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, I do not know whether the financial statement has been thoroughly gone into, but with respect to the Recreation Commission or Committee whatever 1't is, they had a financial statement done, and the department has received that to my knowledge, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The original questioner, a supplementary. MR. NEARY: Is the minister aware, Mr. Speaker, that on January 3l, Mr. G.

Goodland, Director of Municipal Finance asked the Town '\clerk in Mount Pearl to supply details of individual costs of the construction of an arena in that community? And if the minister is aware of that, will the minister tell the House if this information ~ 1.741.

March 1, 1977 Tape 636 PK - 3 Mr. Neary: has indeed been supplied to Mr. Goodland, to the satisfaction of the officials of the minister's department? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: Well, Mr. Speaker, the r~quired information to my knowledge has been supplied to my Deputy Minister, and there was some confusion with Mr. Goodland, and he was sent in to check over some of the expenses etc. for the town with regard to their deficit position.

So he was not aware that the information that he required had already been received in the department, and that is where the confusion was. Arid, yes, I am aware of · a letter gone from Mr. Goodland to the Town, and it was just an unfortunate situation. MR. F. WHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I will allow one further supplementary. The hon. member from Lewisporte. MR. F. WHITE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the supplementary is to the ~ Minister of Municipal Affairs.

Are we to take it from what the minister has said, yesterday he referred to the October financial statement, and then there was, you know, letters from his eepartment exchanged and so on, are we to take now from what the Minister of Municipal Affairs has said that his department is in a position at the moment to verify and approve the budget of the Mount Pearl Town Council? --- MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to approve ------- - - -- budget of Mount Pearl. There were six . 1742 ·.

Tape 637 IB-1 !-!R. DINN: items requested by the gentleman do~m in my accounting division. _ One_ .of the items we had with respect to the arena and the funds fr.om government , the othe~_ fi~e items have not been ~nswered and until we get those answers certainly I will not approve the budget. }'R. SPEAKEP.: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: A question for the ~~inister of the Environment in + view ~f the absence of the }~inister of Health to whom I would have addressed J:~~~ _q1J~St_:!-~~ - had he been here. It is in connection with the number · of calls I have received regarding St.

George's School in ~-fanuels •· Apparently - I am only going by the calls I have received, Mr. Speaker - that is there has been a tremendous odor spreading throughout the school I am told, particularly Grades V and ~ in the last week or two. I believe the school ·was closed do~m for at least one day. I am sure he is familiar with another school in the area where they had to - ffiere was some disease in fact and the school had -to close for a number of weeks, not the same school . -but there is that fear there now for those parents who have students in St. George's School in Manuels.

I am wondering if the minister would undertake first of all to tell me if he is aware of the problem there and secondly, if not would he be good enough to undertake an investigation to see ~·mat the problem is and if he, in his authority and jurisdiction feels together with the Minister of Health that the school should be closed, would he be prepared to take the necessary action to see that it is cured insofar as he can. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Hinister of Environment. MR. Mt"RPHY: Yes, of course, I have heard of it, Sir, and I will certainly - what is the name of the school please? MR. NOLAN: St. George's.

MR. 1-~HY: And for the information of the House my phone number is 737-2574 if anybody wants to as~ any questions pertaining. I ·would like to hear these things and let us check the thing. So I will send around a copy of my ~hone number to all the members of the House so that they can contact me in my office when I can handle the 1743

~~arch 1, 1977 Tape 637 IB-2 ~- . MUP..PHY: thing properly, perhaps not here at the present time. ~~R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile follm:.;red by the hon. member for Lewisporte. MP. NEAPY: ¥r. Speaker, I lvould like to ask the :Minister of ~~ines and Energy what plans the government has to soften the blow of the increased gasoline and heating fuel, the increases that are going to come into effect tomorrow? ¥R. SPE..A.KER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFOF.D: Mr.

Speaker, it is very difficult to devise ways and means to soften the blow because what that means is to provide ~some k~nd of financial assistance to consumers to relieve the kind of burden that they are going to be under with these new increases. The federal government through ~ts agency the Anti-Inflation Board has allowed the increases that are now coming into effect. It is part of the new pricing policy that has been instituted by the ferleral government, and perhaps the only way that we can ease the blow is to defeat the present government that is in Ottawa. MR.. NEARY: A supplementary. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary to the original question. ~~- · NEARY: ¥r. Speaker, this government imposes some pretty heavy taxes on gasoline and heating fuel. Would the minister indicate to 'lr the House whether or not the government have taken any decisidn on dropping the tax on gasoline in order to soften the blow to the consumers in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. I YR. PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, a number of years ago this government, primarily through the insistence of the present Premier 1 indicated t on a whole bunch of occasions that it was our intention to try to alleviate taxation as it applied to heating oil, clothing and so on and we succeeded in bringing in those rather humane policies. If the han. member for LaPoile (}'fr. Neary) wishes to see a reduction in health care in this Province, if he wishes to see a reduction in the quality of education in this Province, if he wishes to see a reduction - 1744

March 1, 1977 Tape 637 IB-3 MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. PECY~OPD: - in the quality of transportation, then we can reduce the gas. MR.. SPEAKER~ A Hhen order ~ finish their Order, please!

Order, please! is called although most hon. mer~ers like to be able sentence - and that is quite understandable - if it is not insisted upon and applied rigidly that a person does in fact then stop speaking and sit do~m, then that particular requirement which I think is a necessary one will be somewhat ambiguous in its application, and that is something which would have very serious consequences and should not be done.

That is the most important point to be made. ·- -- - My origina~ in~~rjection was to draw to the hon. minister's attention that the rules which apply to the Question and Answer Period apply -equally to hen. members answering as they do to hon. members questioning -and preclude debate. --SOME HON. MENBE'RS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~P .• NEARY: :r.~y supplementary question is to the Hinister of Social Services,Mr. Speaker, in connection with the same subject.

Is the minister going to take steps to see that those people ~.rho live or who are forced to exist on social assistance, on fixed incomes, will get an increase in their allowances to offset the increase in heating fuel that is coming into effect tomorrow? ~. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Soc::f.al Services. 1.745

March 1,1977 Tape 638 AH-1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. BRETT:· I am sure that question was asked in this House, ~about ten times last year, Sir. ~. NEARY: And it will be asked, ten more times this year. MR. BRETT: And I give the same answer now as I gave last year. That when the budget is brought down, everyone will know whether or not there will be an increase in the rate of social assistance. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. MR. SPEAKER: The origional questioner with a supplementary. This will be the last supplementary. - - - (' MR.

NEARY: - To be more specific, perhaps the minister misunderstood me. At the moment I am talking about heating fuel. Will the minister grant those people who are forced to live on social assistance, the halt and the lame, an increase in their allowances to offset the increase in heating fuel? MR. BRETT: Mr.

Speaker, I can only answer that as I answered before ~there was an overall increase in the cost of living throughoutthe -- - province during the past year, and as I said, when the budget comes down , the House will know as will the province , liThether or not there will be an increase in the rate ofsocial assistance. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing.

I wonder if the minister could clear up something that a lot of communities have been wondering ~bout. · ~ I wonder if he could tell us what the present policy is with respect to the incorporation of towns and communities, and whether any new ones are going to be incorporat~d, and whether any have been -incorporated within the past twelve months? MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, basically the incorporations, or new inc~rporations have been held up because of the Whalen Commission ~ Report and the Henley Commission Report.

We are at present looking at those requests for incorporations,and proceeding where __ they have the requirement for incorporation. I might make a comment ~- 1.746

Tape 638 AH-2 MR. DINN: while I am up , Mr. Speaker, with respect to Burnt Islands. That will be one of the incorporations in the very near future. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. WHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, it is tied in with the first question that 1 asked, and that is ; Have there been any new incorporations within the past twelve months? You know, can the -minister recall or recollect.' MR. DUTN: Yes, outside of; Mr. Speaker, the new municipality of Buchans~ the ~ocal ~mprovment District of Buchans, I am not aware of any. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. Ron. member for Windsor-Buchans.

I am-· sorry r have recognized the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans for a supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: Yes, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the Minister of Municipal Affairs, indicating that Buchans was the only new + incorporation . this past year. Would the m:iil.ister advise the House ~s to whether there was any request from the town of Buchans for that incorporation. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister. MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, the incorporation of Buchans as a Local Improvmenf District was as a result of the .T.ask Force report ,and the hon. member for Buchans was on a sub-committee of that Task Force which recommended that incorporation. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary! This will be the last question. MR. NEARY: Did I understand the minister correctly? The minister $tated that ~urnt Islands will be incorporated into a town council in ~he very nea~ fu ture. That the minister now has cabinet approval to go ahead and grant a town council to the people of Burnt Islands. MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, with respect to Burnt Islands, we had a ~request in from the people of Burnt Islands, they have met all the requirements for incorporation , I said we would have incorporation 1.747

March 1 , 19 77 Tape 638 AH-3 MR. DINN: in the next couple of months or so, several incorporations, one of the ones we are looking at is Burnt Islands. Hopefully that will be one of the ones that will be incorporated as a town council. MR. NEARY: MR.. SPEAKER: - - adjourned_debat~ _ on _ the ~mendment,thereto.~on. member for Burgeo-Bay _p'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, now that the members that I was throwing ~ the special bouquets to,are in the House, and were not yesterday.

I should like to repeat again, that I did offer congratulations to the member from Exploits , who was here yesterday when I spoke, but also to the member for Bonavista North and the member for Ferryland. Without· repeating them, I would refer them to the Hansard for some very choice words on the subject. Mr. Speaker, I believe it was the Minister of Industrial Development a couple of Wednesdaysago, ~.me~ he was speaking in the private motion, the debate on the private motion concerning Labrador, brought _ in by my colleague from Eagle River.

I believe it was he, the minister of Industrial and Rural Devel9pment,who ~ 1748

March 1, 1977 Tape No. 639 NM- 1 MR. SIMMONS: ch~r~c~eriz~d the government as tomorrow people, and he -~ha!:act:er:i._zed the Opposition among other things as today people .To111:orrow; people, today people. Now,..__Mr._Speaker, I believe the minister was - a lot closer to the truth, a lot nearer the mark than he realized when he chose to characterize us as today people and his colleagues as tomorrow people. The best proof of that of course, Mr. Speaker, at least insofar as the government is concerned is this document itself. It is certainly in eveey, sense of the word a tomorrow document, a tomorrow document.

It says very little, Mr. Speaker, about what they are going to do about the problems of today. The first Prime Minister of Canada, Sir John A. MacDonald -- MR. NEARY: A good Tory. MR. SIMMONS: - a good Tory, I am reminded, but he is known for other things, Mr. Speaker. He was known among other things for being known as Old Tomorrow. - - - - - MR. SMALLWOOD: - Old Man Tomorrow. MR.

SIMMONS: Old Man Tomorrow, and for very good reasons~ If.he believed absolutely and completely in that dictum that you should never do today what you can put off until tomorrow and you should never do tomorrow what you can put off for the next day. And you should not do then what you can put off for forever. He was the expert procrastinator of the 1870's. He had it down to a science, Mr. Speaker, that people thought could not be excelled, they thought could not be excelled. But how wrong they were. Because one century later, one century ~fter Old Man Tomorrow of the 1870's we have an Old Tomorrow of the 1970's.

We have several of them really but epitomized, Mr. Speaker, . by the Premier, the leader of the team, our modern day Old Tomorrow, the Old Tomorrow of the 1970's, the man who would put Sir John to shame, would make Sir John look like an absolute amateur when it comes to procrastination, a babe in the woods when you compare the --~---- ----------- 1749

March 1, 1977 Tape No. 639 NM- 2 MR. SIMMONS: ability at procrastinating, at dreaming about tomorrow, at iffing. MR. HICKMAN: Maybe tomorrow. MR. SIMMONS: Our modern Old Tomorrow, our Premier, would make Sir John look like an amateur, a very poor amateur •. Of course now, Mr. Speaker, had we the time it would be an interesting exercise to compare Sir John and our present ------Premier at some length because they had other _ inclinatiop..§l in common. But, Mr. Speaker, I believe in fairness, I believe any comparison at length of these two people would be most unkind·, that is to Sir John A. MacDonald.

Our modern day Old Tomorrow, Mr. Speaker, our very own Premier is everything the term implies. He is the master at putting it off. He not ~nly believes in the dictum that you should never do today what you can put ~ff until tomorrow , but with him, in his five years in office it has reached new heights of perfection, he has perfected the dictum,~With him it has become a specialty, a creed if you like. Arid what is this creed? · Ah ha the creed is very simple.

One, the water supply promised in the Fall of 1973, as it happens during a by-election, a coincidence I am sure. , Th~ water system promised to the people of MacCallum "before the Winter sets in" !t- by the Premier. There is his creed. The water.system promised to the people of MacCallum will be done, will be provided tomorrow. The trawler fleet promised the people of Harbour Breton and all the people along the Southwest Coast in 1971, the twenty trawlers ~ CAPTAIN WINSOR: Sixty-five footers. MR.

SIMMONS: Twenty sixty-five footers promised in 1971, which got down to six in the by-election of 1973 , these will be provided the creed says, will be provided tomorrow. The full employment promised by the Premier in the Fall of 1971, not ----- Mr. Speaker, reduced unemployment, not 1750

March 1,1977 Tape 640 PK - 1 Mr. Simmons: 10 per cent instead of a 15 per cent or 17 per cent, but full employment. Now, Mr. Speaker, you would have be almost a raving maniac to promise that any way.

Because there is not a jurisdiction in North America, even Alberta which province we have heard about in such . kind terms today, even Alberta has got an unemployment rate of 2 per cent or 3 per cent, because it is virtually impossible given·almost any set of circumstances . however favourable, economically, and financially, it is virtually impossible tG have full employment, zero unemployment, 100 per cent employment. Notwithstanding our Old Tomorrow was never phased by the facts, never taken off stride by the reality, he promised it any way, Mr.

Speaker, and his creed is simple, full employment will be provided, will be achieved tomorrow, tomorrow. Ah, yes, this modern day Old Tomorrow, of course, has had five years ·practising, practising mind you at the expense of the - --· ·--- -· . . - taxpayers of this Province. Not only at their financial expense ' in terms of tax dollars, but at their econOmic expense, at their social expense · as a people, at the ·social and economic expense of everyone of us in this Chamber and in this Province, be has practised his art of procrastination, his art of doing nothing today, and promising the sky tomorrow. Now, Mr.

Speaker, like any artist, like any person who gets beyond the beginning phases of his career as an artist h~ introduces certain little shadings, little nuances, little differences, little specialties of his art. He gets bored with the basic practic~ . of his art,tha basic pursuit, the basic performance of his art, and so he begins to introduce little twists, a little specialized ' twist on the art he is pursuing. And no longer does he 3ust say I am going to put that off until tomorrow, not- this fellow, because this fellow is a real accomplished artist. He is an Old Tomorrow like you would not believe.

He has got it down pat. No longer does he say about any problem, we will just put it off until tomorrow. Here is what he says, . "Ah" for example, he says, "The,· Labrador issue, the frustrations, the dissatisfaction, the needs that demand to be filled, 1751.

March 1, 1977 Tape 640 PK - 2 Mr. Simmons: I am not just going to put that off until tomorrow.' I think this requires some special ~rtistic treatment. I will appoint a royal commission. " That will effectively put it off until tomorrow. So he appoints a royal commission, and two or three years later, and tens upon tens of thousands of dollars later, after one of the most expensive royal commissions in Newfoundland history> tomorrow comes, tomorrow comes. Here he is red-handed with six volumes of a_ repo~t he can scarcely lift. So what does he do now?

Very simple>like every artistwhen you are stuck-for a trick, you return to the basic practice of your profession. And so in very simple unadulterated terms he just puts it off until tomorrow by shelving the report. So nothing has been done about that since the day our good friend Mr. Snowden made the report available to government. And that, Mr. Speaker, is just one of so many examples that could be given. What about the problems of the small community, the small unincorporated community? I meationed a moment ago the community of ~~cCullum without water.

I could mention Francois in my district, Grey River in my district, St. Joseph's Cove in my district, St. Veronica's in my district, five unincorporated . communities between a couple of hundred and three hundred pop~lation, all of them without the basic conveniences that we in the larger towns and cities take for granted. Why are they without these conveniences, Mr. Speaker, because they are lazier than we are? Because they -· -- -have not got the get up and go? Because they earn less money per capita? Because they do not know how to use the bathroom? No, Mr.

Speaker, because this government will not allow -: these communities to incorporate··; And we heard it again this afternoon, not tweaty minutes ago from the Minister of Municipal Affairs. My colleague from Lewisporte (Mr. White) ~ 1.752

}{.arch 1, 1977 Tape 641 IB-1 l1R.. SU'l-'ONS: asked the question about when the last community was incorporated. Ap~rt ___ fro1ll ~uc::tJ.~~~, _ -t.:rhich my colleagues had to remind him of) which does• not say much for his regard for Buchans, apart from that one he cannot remember a single one. I will tell you why, because there is not a single one, because for four years the McCallums and the St. Josephs and the St.

Veronica's and the Grey Rivers and the Francois's and the dozens of other communities in that category have been disbarred, have been disallowed, have been not permitted to incorporate and th~reby to begin helping the~selves to provide some of the basic services that we, in other communities, take so much for granted. Now, what did the Old Tomorro-.;v- do about that problem? What did our modern day Old Tomorrow, our very own Premier, do about that problem? Here is what he did. Re said, "Let us appoint a Royal Commission. That wj_ll effectively put it on ice for three or four years.

That will give us a good excuse." So four years later his newest Minister of ~unicipal Affairs - and I must say that department has a fairly high mortality rate - even our ne'tv one now up in ~~arch 1, 1977 is able to rise and give the same excuse that his predecessor and the one before him and the one before him were able to give. ""He are waiting on the Whalen Royal Commission actually and that has caused us a bit of delay and that kind of thing.

And ~-fcCallum in the meantime I will tell you what to do, get aboard the boat like you have done for forty or fifty years some nice cold morning in February or 1-farch and three . -- -- ---- or four of y~u wil~ row out around the· point a couple of miles if .. you can _skote the punt out over the ice to the edge of the ice in the harbour~ row it around the point a couple of ~iles, get the water from a Spring and put it in a puncheon, in a large barrel, and then bring it into the edge of the ice and then with a hoop and a couple of buckets drag it in across the ice and up to the house and hope it is still fit to drink.

That is the solution. Yr. Speaker, what has he done about the problems up in ¥cCallum and the other small communities? A Royal Commission which effectively shelves it. But I say to him and to his government, Tomorrow has come 1753

}!arch 1, 1977 Tape 641 IB-2 ~"R. SI~NS: and the people of ~cCallum still skote their water in the same way and the pe~! ~ of Francois still have a water system ~vhich got government's attention only during the last election and not a bit since.

Now as they go around the community, yes they have a water system all right and they also have one of the most novel recreational exercises in Newfo~~land, ducking the sprays from the water system because everyWhere you go you have one massive fountain all the way from the top of the brook all the way down to the community with its several forks, its several hoses going off all boxed in and that kind of thing, and water sprouts everywhere because the system was never finished. Because after September, 1975 when the election was over there was no immediate pr;ority to finish it anymore.

So they duck their fountains and get recreation in the meantime but no water. That is what Old. Tomorrow says about the small coml!l.unity, "~-Te will deal with them, we will solve their problems tomorrmv." I How about the future of Buchans? ~ow there is a classic. If you want to see how the art of putting things off until tomorrow reached absolute and undeniable perfection, you look at the Buchans example. Or if you are not familiar with it you ask any soul in Buchans regardless of political stripe. MR. HICKEY: How many royal commissions have we set up? ~.

SI!-'MONS: I am going to te1 1 the _-minister how many royaL commissions they have set up because I have got them all right - the.r~-·-- _! Let us hear about them • . MR. HICKEY: }!R. SIMMONS': I will tell the minister all that in a moment. I do not expect the minister to like what I am saying about Buchans because the people of Buchans do not like it. I do not expect the Minister of Tourism to like it. SOME RON. 1-IEYBEPS: Rear, hear! }'IR. S IYMONS : The Minister of Tourism wants to hear about reportsf Perhaps he wants to hear about this report.

It has some very interesting things about the minister, some said and some not quite said. I l-Till tell the minister in time about that. But that is another 1754

¥arch 1, 1977 Tape 641 IB-3 Wt. SIMMONS: story and a long story and a sad story. If I were the minister I I would bite my lip a bit because that one there~ ¥r. Speaker - MR. HICKEY: li1hat story? MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I do not expect the minister to like what I am saying. The truth 'often hurts pa_!~-~cularly when it is the kind of truth that I am telling about what this government has done to the. people of Buchans. If only, Mr. Speaker, if it were --- - -------- - 1.755

March 1, 1977 Tape no. 642 Page 1 - mw Mr • Simmons • only the sin of omission, · if it were only the sin of putting it off, but the callous, almost animal-like treatment that those people have been subjected to in the interests of some fellow practicing his art, in the interests of some fellow trying to be the Mr. Perfect Old Man Tomorrow. And he has j~st about achieved it on the back of the taxpayers o~ this Province, and in particular the taxpayers of Buchans. However, Mr.

Speaker, if Buchans is not a relevant example for some people, how about in my own district, in Bay d'Espoirr Shall I tell you how he practiced his art in Bay d'Espoir, in the Fall of 1973, which again you remember they tell me there was a by-election down there. I am not suggesting there is any connection between the by-election and what I am going to say. But the by-election was called in October 1973, and in November 1973 just before the by-election was actually run off; November 26 was the actual date - just before that, Mr.

Speaker, "Old Tomorrow" himself announced that they were going to have a special report, because , they were concerned about the ~cono~c - development of Bay d'Espofr. They were concerned that i~ had one of the highest unemployment rates in Newfoundland and Labrador. They were going· to do something about it, pronto, right now. And so they appointed the Research and Productivity Council in New Brunswick, known in short as RPC. RPC came in and did, Mr.

Speaker, a magnificent report, and .it was delivered to the government in January, and yo.u will recall in this House, I tried for two and one-half months - I knew the report existed~ and I tried for two and one-half months, before ~ got the present Minister of Finance, then the I Minister of Industrial Development, to admit that the report actually existed. They sat on it for two or three months. And finally in April, 1974 it was made avilable to me. · Since April, 1974, Mr. Speaker, they have sat on it, and not one job has been c~eated as a result of that report, not one solitary, single job, Mr. Speaker.

What did they do for the peopla - of Bay d'Espoi7? The same treatment all the time, Mr. Speaker. Even 1756

March 1, 1977 Tape no. 642 Page 2 - mw Mr. Simmons • a practiced, perfectionist artist becomes mundane after awhile, because he does the same thing over and over. However beautiful to the ear or the eye, it is the same thing, and you can recognize the pattern. You can sit down in your living ro~m and you can listen to music, and you can tell whether it is Beethoven or Shubert or _ _wh~~ver, b~~e -~~ever expert it has a style· all its own, and so with this Premier, Mr.

Speaker, an artist with a style completely his own and, therefore, very recognizable, and, therefore, we see him to do the same thing to the people of Labrador as he did to the people of Buchans, as he did to the people of the small communities I mentioned, as he did to the people of Bay d' Expoir, because his performance, his course of action is predictable. Put it off until tomorrow. If tomorrow comes, find a way of putting it off until another tomorrow. And so we could go, Mr. Speaker. The Lower Churchill . - the_ Upper_ Churchill, there is a classic one, the Upper Churchill. Now how, Mr.

Speaker, you ask, how did they put that one off until tomorrowr Somebody, Mr. Speaker, had the bright idea that if we could spark a confr9ntation, if we could box people into corners, we would have two things going for us at once. A beautiful patriotic election issue for three by-elections in June 1976 -- forget the expense to the people of the Provi~ce financially or morall~-- but what a beautiful election issue we would have if we turned this into a patriotic confr~ntation, and - · -· ··- ·- -- -- at the same time, so we do not have to deal with it rig~E after the _ e~ection, shove it in the courts.

What better excuse in the books, Mr. Speaker, than I cannot talk about it, because it is in the courts. And this government, Mr. _Speaker, and this Old Tomorrow has - --·- ---·-become an_ expe:rE. · ·You hear it three times a day in this House. I cannot answer that one it is in the courts. I would say, Mr. Speaker, this government has more cases in .the courts than any other government in Canadian h±story, I would think, 1757

March 1, 1977 Tape no. 642 Page 3 - mw Mr. Simmons • more things they cannot talk about or will not talk about, and perhaps there is the crux, Mr. Speaker, or will not talk about it. Because you see by getting this thing in the court, with nebulous results, Mr. Speaker, even if the court decides in their favour, what is the court going to decidei" The court is going to decide that in 1983 we will get some more power. Now, Mr. Speaker, it happens to be 1977.

I think I speak for a lot of people in this Province when I say that what the people of this Province would much ~ather have than more power in 1983 is a considerably improved financial position in 1977. That is hardly possible, Mr. Speaker, if you have a government that engages in tomorrow ploys, ~ 1.758

March 1,1977 Tape 643 AH-1 MR. SIMMONS: tomorrow games , whatever the consequences to its people. Now, Mr. Speaker, if what I said about our modern day Old Tomorrow is true, if he has been procrastinating at the expense of the people of Bay D'Espoir and the people of McCallum, and Francois,and Gray River, and Ramea and Burgee; every community in my district, asd the expense of the people of Buchans, and at the expense of the people of this entire province, if all that that I say is true, how is it, Mr.

Speaker, how well our artists, our procrastinator, our accomplished artist, our modern Tchaikovsky, how will he ever, Mr. Speaker, perpetuate his own memoryi Howwill we remember such a great artist~ Ah but,Mr. Speaker, he has looked after that to. I think it was about Sir Christopher Wren that this line was first said,,! cannot say the latin, I will that to my more learned ~~l~eagues in the House, but the English, which you will find over the North door, of that very great cathedral in London, St.

Pauls, as you go in the north entrance and look from the inside back at the door, as I had the occasion, to do, and see that inscription in Latin, the epitaph to Sir, Christopher Wren, the great English architect, of the 17th and early 18th century, the inscription is in Latin but the English equivalent I am told is "If you seek his monument, look about you" If you seek his monument,look about _ - you~ Mr. Speaker, I now compare our modern day Old Tomorrow td a second kn~g~t, first Sir. John and now Sir Christopher. He is going to get heady feelings, Mr. Speaker, when he hears this, ~ut, Mr.

Sp:aker, even the ~annota tion ~f the White Knight, in shining armour can be carried to far. If you seek a monument, look around you. Let us look around us , Mr. Speaker .. ~ithin arms reach, I looked this afternoon. I talked about the Royal Commission on Labrador, there is his monument, Hr. Speaker, volume 1. The Royal Commission on - Labrador, if that is not enough, there is a monument; Volume 2.; ~ 1759

March 1,1977 Tape 643 AH-2 MR. SD1HONS: Volume 3, Mr. Speaker, there are monuments, words, Volume 4 of the Labrador report, Volume 5, and Volume 6 which includes, Mr. Speaker, among other things, no fewer than 288 recommendations. When the former member for L~brador North was in this House, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Hel 'Woodward, he and I got involved in our own little project to do certain things involving the Labrador issue. And we wrote letters to the Ministers, Mr.

Speaker, on every single one of those 288 recommendations, and ~\l'e said look, the Royal Commission recommended in recommendation number 231 that your department do this, could you inform us of the status of that recommendation, what you intend doing or what you have done. One minister of the seventeen or eighteen over there, Mr. Speaker, ' I and at the time some of them might have been in Scandinavia or Montreal or somewhere else, God knows where, but there were a few kicking around ·the province at the time , Hr.

Speaker., _ They might have been down in Grey River helicopter fishing, up in Labrador fishing or down in Placentia Bay fi&hing, doing a variety of things, all kinds of varities of fishing, when they were not shooting partridge or moose or whatever. Well, Mr. Speaker, one minister, the former member for St. John's West, "Mr. john Crosbie, the only minister who answered. Now there were twa or three who answered, standard acknowledgements.

"I got your letter - -- and I will answer it tomorrow." But one minister only gave us an answer of substance and -I will say to that man's credit that he documented every item we had asked, and he gave a response. Now we were not happy with all the responses, but at least we knew the status of the recommendation, we knew that he was aware of what was in the Commission Report~the only minister 4 The other sixteen or seventeen did not even bother, with two or three exceptions, to give an acknowledgement to the member for Labrador North, as he then wa~. Mr. Woodward, or me . --- - - ---- 1.760

March 1, 1977 Tape 644 PK - 1 Mr. Simmons: There are his monuments, Mr. Speaker, there are the monuments of this government, in the

summary of that report,again, another pretty colour. There is his monument, the : Royal Commission on Municipal Government,one of the greatest monuments, Mr. Speaker, because it has been the excuse for more tomorrows than any other document. ~or~ co~~~i~~esare suffering today, and mo~e people are going to outdoor toilets today, still going to outdoor toilets, more people are drinking filthy drinking water and running the risk of becoming ill because of the tomorrow that that repoDt represents than for any other reason related to this government. Mr.

Speaker, look some monuments are not nearlv- as !i_trikim~ n-r as beautiful as others, but is that not something? Is that not a classic? The Buchans Task Force Report, there, Mr. Speaker, if he is forgotten for all of the other reasons the people of Buchans will have a special place in their heart forever for Old Tomorrow because of this. I never said a kind place, but a very special place. The Lower Chruchill -what monuments they are, beautiful · orange, Mr. Speaker. Look, here we are, Mr. Speaker, is that not -an impressive monument? Would you not like to haveone that prominent as your epitaph?

Or would you not even like to have the money it costs as my colleague from Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe) so well says~ I doubt whether any of us,however great we will be seen in the eyes of our colleagues or our friends or our family,will ever get a monument to us that cost a couple of hundred million dollars. Boy what a long,tall,straight monument,cai~, pile of stones you can. buildwith that. The people of Bay d'Espoir, Mr. Spe~ker, go for green monuments. They have their reasons. The RPC report, the ultimate tomorrow document, there _ are his monuments, Mr. Speaker, there they are.

I have only got a small desk so I could not bring in all the monuments that one should parade out in honour of such an accomplished artist. I could not pay as complete a attribute to the per-fection of this artist as I would like to, but as is always the 176:1

March 1, 1977 Tape 644 PK - 2 Mr. Simmons : case on a funereal occasions, it is difficult to have complete presence of mind~ It·. is difficult in the face of such shameful, regrettable, remorseful, tearful circumstances to have your wits completely about you. There are his monuments, Mr. Speaker, some of them. There are others. I could not bring them all here .Had I a truck I would have brought the one from Clarenville,that beautiful four by eight billboard which says that the Clarenville Hospital is beginning.

I would have brought the one from Grand Falls which says that the Central Newfoundland Hospital is going to be expanded, or the one from the Burin Peninsula. SOME . HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: Ah, yes, -~11 projects that have been begun several times and stopped just as many times, always at convenient periods, Mr. Speaker. Some people tell me that a start takes place just before elections and the stop takes place just after elections. Well now, Mr._ Speaker, that cannot be the case certainly. Or the monument, Mr.

Speaker, of the Wild Life Act if you want _more intangible monuments, the Wild Life Act which has two applications one for those in high office and one for the rest of us. Or The Public Tendering Act which has two applications, one when you are telling the public how it should have been done under the old administration, and another when you decide how it is going to.be done under yours, with no public tenders. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Because you see the ultimate monument to this government, to thia- OldT_omor~~w Mr.

Speaker, would be two monuments representing the double talk of this administration. ) 1762

March 1, 1977 Tape No. 645 NM- 1 MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, is it any wonder that the other ultimate monument is a complete lack of confidence in public officials. Now, Mr. Speaker, our Old Tomorrow did not begin this, he did not start the trend but I will tell you this, Mr. Speaker, he has confirmed all the worse fears, he has certainly confirmed all the worse fears, Mr. Speaker. Yes, the Minister of Industrial Developme,nt was indeed right when he says that this is a tomorrow government and the Opposition is a today people. And we make no apologies, Mr. Speaker, for being called today people.

We believe that today must we be concerne,d about the economic· stability of this ~rovince. Today must we address ourselves to the direction in which we ·are headed as a people. Today must we have a close scrutiny o£ what is happening in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. Today must we hear the VGice of Labrador and heed it while there is time to heed it. Today must we come to grips with record unemployment and the highest welfare roles in our history. Today must we be concerned about the shocking malaise which is among our people right throughout this Province.

Today must we be concerned with the lack of confidence about the parliamentary system. So we over here are going to bear the scorn, Mr. Speaker, we will bear the scorn of being called today people,a sco-rn- I -_b.eliev~ __ g~adiy· - shared by all the people of this Province, all those who cry out for something to be done t9day. Now, Mr. Speaker, in conclusion I do not advocate a today mentality which screams out tomorrow, which takes no thought for tomorrow, but I shun, Mr.

Speaker, I reject outright a mentality which ga zes fixedly on tomorrow as our Old Tomorrow does without any reference to doing anything ·today. Mr. Speaker, on opening day the Premier got up and ; 1763

March 1, 1977 Tape No. 645 NM- 2 MR. SIMMONS: he exhorted all of us to hard work, hard work. How appropriate that the exho!"tat~pn __ _ should be given. How appropriate that we should have an exhortation to hard work. Is there anybody in this Chamber who can disagree with that~ How appropriate. How completely inappropriate that the exhortation should come from the lips of the man who happens to be Premier today. I say from the lips, Mr. Speaker, because it can be nothing more than lip service to an ideal, rather than a clarion call to some renewed endeavour,. A drunk Mr.

Speaker, preaching sobriety would ... ~·- ,• have more credibility than our Premier preaching the virtues of hard work. How can you, Mr. Speaker, lead a government, how can you lead a government sitting on a salmon river in Labrador? How can you, Mr. Speaker, lead a government delegation in Scandinavia? MR. -MURPHY: (Inaudible) MR. SIMMONS: How can you, Mr. Speaker, lead a government delegation in Scandinavia, your four Cabinet Ministers, lead them to Scandinavia by sitting in London all the two weeks that they are gone? How can you, Mr.

Speaker, lead a people to mount a redou~led effort, how can you lead a people to mount a redoubled effort if they see in your every act of leadership a complete, a blatant betrayal of your very exhortation to hard work. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear! Hear! MR. SIMMONS: The Premier is right, Mr. Speaker:there are attitudes abroad that are pretty disturbing, attitudes about ease and about despair and about gloom and doom and what is the use and that kind of thing, Mr. Speaker. The Premier and his colleagues did not invent those attitudes but they have certainly made them acceptable.

They have made it respectable to rest on your oars. They have made it embraceable as it were, 1764

March 1, 1977 Tape No. 645 MR. SIMMONS: so that today the gospel of gloom and doom is a respectable gospel these days, thanks to the Premier and Mr. Crosbie. The gospel of ease,of the free_!ide-I was not referring · to the jet to Montreal, Mr. Speaker~the gospel of the f~ee __ ride __ · is acceptable it seems these days, thanks to the example of the Premier and his administration. Because you see, Mr. Speaker, what we have on our hands here is a devil-may-care, a despairing, a gloom and doom, a lazy government. Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not. have all the solutions. ·The solutions are not simple.

But I would suggest that a beginning can be made and I would suggest a couple of things as a beginning. Number one, stay home, NM- 3 stay home and do the work that is assigned to you., or resign and let somebody else do it. We are sick and tired of part~time governments and part-time Premiers in this Province, Mr. Speaker. We want a full time administration for a change. Stay home. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! I do have to remind the hon. member that his time has just about expired. MR. SIMMONS; Can I take a sentenceZ SOME RON. MEMBERS : _ By leave. MR. SIMMONS: Just to clue up, Mr.

Speaker, number one, stay home, and number two, practice what you preach. Practice good fiscal management. Practice good -- --- - - - 1.765

March 1, 1977 Tape no. 646 Page 1 - mw Mr. Simmons. economic leadership. Use the public tendering system, and this Province would be a whole lot better for it. ~· SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear , hear! MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The bon. Minister of Fisheries. MR.. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I want to join my other colleagues in wishing very sincere congratulations to the ~mover and seconder of the Address in Reply. Both gentlemen did an exceptionally good job. The member for Exploits (Dr. Twomey) excelled himself in his maiden speech as did the member, my good friend and colleague from Bonavista North (Mr. Cross).

I am not going to waste the time that I have alloted to me, Mr. Speaker, to reply to s9me of the charges made by the previous speaker. I think the fact that he devoted his entire speech to castigating the Premier of the Province and referring to the government as being a tamorrow government - was it? - or a yesterday government, I think, proved just how bankrupt the man is~when it comes to · trying to get across new ideas,: -It can have some worth-while effect in the future development of our Province. MR. SIMMONS: _ Yau_are __ on _the verge of bankruptcy. MR.. PECKFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): A point of order has been raised. MR.. PECKFORD: The hon.member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir . is interrupting the present speaker, and I am sure that the s~eaker, the bon. Minister of Fisheries would like to be heard in silence. It is a brazen breach of the rules. We gave him the courtesy of silence, and he should do the same for our side. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I could not agree more with the Hinister of Mines and Energy that one should be heard in silence.

I understand - to the point of order - that if the member speaking allows some latitude, then it is okay to have an exchange. And I understood he was doing.it in the spirit in which I did it when I was subjected to about ten minutes of harassment by the member for St. John's Centre (Mr. Murphy). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~· 1. 766

March 1, 1977 Tape no. 646 • .. - - - Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): Order, please! Ron. members· will recognize that if a member requests silence during his address, the House accords h~ that courtesy. On the other hand if he does not specifically request such silence, and the House does not become unduly unruly, the Chair will allow a certain amount of talk back and forth. The hon. minister. MR.. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I would want the House to note by the way that during the hon. member's speech, I did not interject, ·I did not interrupt him at any time, and I expect the same courtesy from him.

I am not going to, ·like I said, waste the time of the House or the time that has been allocated to me to speak in this debate by even attempting to respond to some of the nonsense, the utter nonsense that has been put forward by the hon. member, negative attitudes t~~t I am sure we can very well do without in this Province. I want to spend the time that I have, Mr. Speaker, talking about the state of the fishing industry<~- what has happened during 1976, and what we hope to see happen during the year ahead. I have already indicated to the House, Mr.

Speaker, that 1976 was probably a bu=per year for the fishing industry. Last April, I think it was, I predicted that on the basis of landings to that time that 1976 would be a very successful year in the fishing industry. I am happy now to relate that such was the case. In fact 1976 was a very successful year. Maybe, Mr. Speaker, I should, for the record, place some of the statistics before the House as to what happened in 1976. Total landings were up by twenty-three per cent, for a total of 659,000,000 pounds.

The land~d val~e -of our tish "fo~ that year was up by twenty-eight point five per cent for a total of $59,million. The export value was a record one. It was up by ~ 1767

March 1, 1977 Tape no. 646 Page 3 - mw ~ MR. W. CARTER: thirty-two l)Oint two per cent to a total of $160 million, as compared to the previous record year of 1973 which was then $144 million. Cod fish landings, inshore, were up by thirty-nine per cent, with the landed value increasing by approximately ~ 1.768

March 1, 1977 Tape No. 647 NM - 1 MR. W. CARTER: approximately forty-seven per cent. I think it is encouraging, Mr. Speaker, as well to note that the 16,500 fishermen who were involved in the fisheries in 1976 increased their· earnings _by eighte_e!l per c;e~!.. And that I think is probably one of the greatest increases in any segment of our Provincial economy for that year. The processing sector employed a labour force of approximately 6,000 people up by 22.4 per cent over the previous year.

The number of licenced fishermen in 1976 were 18,000, which was up by about thirty-two per cent over the 1975 figure, despite the fact that our total labour force in the Province increased by only 3.9 p~r cent, making a total for people involved in the fishing industry in Newfoundland in 1976 as that of 15.5 per ·cznt as opposed to 12.43 per cent in 1975. Mr. Speaker, these are impressive increases in landings and landed value~ and earn~ngs to fishermen.

While I am not suggesting that we should be now content to rest on our oars and relax, we must keep progressing and trying our best to ensure that the average landing to fishermen continue to increase, indeed to a point where they would be able to sustain the quality of life that is taken for granted by most other·canadians in other industries. Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention to try and take credit for these increased landings. But I think the department can take some credit for having provided the necessary tools for the fishermen to catch the fish once the good Lord sent in to our shores.

For example in 1976 we, had completed several marine service centres around the Island, Wesleyville, Bonavista, Harbour Grace, Port Saunders, Old Perlican, Englee, LaScie, Labrador ~ 1769

March 1, 1977 Tape No. 647 NM- 2 MR. W. CARTER: ·South, Flowers Cove, Durrell, Fogo Island, Southern Harbour, and Isle aux Morts, for a total provincial expenditure of $346 million. These centres, Mr. Speaker, are - MR. SMALLWOOD: What are these? MR. W. CARTER: These are marine service centres. MR. SMALLWOOD: How many? MR. W. CARTER: There are about fourteen altogether in the Prov:fnce. MR. SMALLWOOD: Would the minister yield a moment?

Before I went out I had arranged, my colleagues and I, for a number of them1 I do not remember what the number was J would the minister tell me how ~y were our planning and how many - --not how many were built, that we built :; I imagine the present government built pretty well all 6"f'' them- : but how many--d.:lcfwe announce ' and how many 'are there in additi-on to that number? MR. W. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, I give the han. former Premier ~credit for having maybe initiated the programme but I am afraid that a lot of the initiation was by way of planning and talk but the present government, I am happy to say, is responsible for,at least,implementing some of these plans. MR. SMALLWOOD: Perhaps that is so. Yes. MR. W. CARTER: These centres, Mr. Speaker, are used for the purpose of storing and repairing boats, repairing and reconstructing nets, or the overhauling and rebuilding of engines, a very useful purpose. MR. SMALLWOOD: Well they are actually superb, are they not? Magnificent beyond words. MR. W.

CARTER: I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, ,they are one of the great innovations, the great new concepts in the inshore fishery that we have seen in the past couple of decades. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is right. 1770

March 1, 1977 Tape No. 647 NM- 3 MR..: W. CARTER: 1976 saw the construction of several community fish handling facilities. I am thinking about Little Harbour . . East, Musgrave Harbour, Branch, St. Mary's - The Cape~ which involved - ·------ - an ~iture of $1.1 million. . Community stages in Red Bay and other .. P~~ of the Province, including Bartlett's Harbour,~d several of these stages were upgraded in 1976 at a c~st of, I do not have the exact amount but at a considerable cost to the Provincial Treasury. Ice making machines, cooling units and other ice making facilities were installed in six other areas with upgrading of 1771.

March 1, 1977 Tape 648 IB-1 MR. W. CARTER: six ~~~~~g -~its along the South coast. And 1976 saw nine freshwater supply systems in the Province to fish plants totalling $6.1 million with a total provincial expenditure of $1.3 million. This,of course> will improve the quality of fish and of course by so doing will increase ' the value of fish processed and sold. In 1976 we saw the development of the pelagic fisheries, projects were undertaken at Bonavista, . Valleyfield, Twillingate, Wesleyville, Fogo, Triton and St. Anthony. Very successful . r~_sults were effected.

For _exal!l:Ple,crews in the St. . .. - - ·-- · - - - . mid October landed 500,000 pounds representing additional earnings of $20,000 with almost a similar amount being earned by people who work in the processing plants. ~_r. Speaker, I could go on and give a number of example -s as to why the fish landings were increased in 1976 and why the earnings of our fishermen were increased proportionately. In the marketing --division of the Department of-Fisheries we had a very bu~y and a very successful year.

The marketing people were involved in assisting the community of Greenspond which_ i s- involved in a salmon smoking operation, crab processing, seal canning, minced salt fish, j ma_ck_~iel canning, squid processing and herring pickling. Similar experiments were -· undertaken, Mr. Speaker, in Fortune Bay where Danish seines could be usedJ ~ci- as a result turbot found in the Hermitage Bay and Fortune Bay area which was otherwise unknown and does have some potential for _our future developments in the years ahead.

We provided electronic training for fishermen during the Summer to assist them in the operation and maintenance of electronic equipment. <:lD. the job training for six or eight fishermen from Port Saunders, Flower's Cove, for ten fishermen from the St. Mary's Bay,Trinity Bay and Conception Bay areas. Another very important advance, Mr. Speaker, during the year 1976 was in the activities of the Fishe ·ries Loan Board. For example) in 1976 t -he- Loan Board was responsible for loaning out to fishermen a total

March 1, 1977 Tape 648 }1R. W. CARTER: of $8.5 million with 803 applications being approved. That compared with the total outlay in 1975 of $5.4 million or 408 applications. Another interesting statistic, Mr. Speaker, which I am sure will delight my friends opposite ' is ~h~~act that seventy-seven IB-2 per cent of the loans that have been made by the Loan Board have been made since the present administration took office in 1972, and that thirty-five per cent of all of the money that has been put out by that Loan Board has been put out since 1976.

So you can see there is a very dramatic increase there in the activities of the Fisheries Loan Board. Another very important statistic is that the average age of our fishermen has decreased by ten years in the past four years. For example 1 the average age of our fishermen has decreased from forty- five to thirty-five years of age in the past four years. That I think speaks well for the industry and the fact that a lot of our young people are getting more involved in the industry itself. So, Mr.

Speaker, that is just a very brief rundown of the activities of the Department of Fisheries during the past year, during 1976. Now I think we must spend a few minutes talking 'about what the future holds· and where we are going in 1977. January 1, Yr. Speaker, 1977,! think 7will go down in history as being one ·of the most important events in the history of our entire Province.

March 1~ 1977 Tape No. 649 NM- 1 MR. W. CARTER: It was the declaration of a 200 mile limit, something that Newfoundlanders have been fighting for now for quite some time. And I think that Newfoundlanders can take pride in the fact, Mr. Speaker, that the fight for the 200 mile limit was initiated in this Province by Newfoundlanders, led by Newfoundlanders and because of pressure that.was applied on the federal government by Newfoundlanders did they see fit to implement our recommendations on January·lst., of 1977. Mr. Speaker, the 200 mile limit. _has some very significant benefits for this Province.

Number one it will ensure that the Newfoundland fishing industry will survive. It means that the more than 300 Newfoundland communities that depend on the fisheries for their very existence will be now allowed to survive and I hope prosper. And probably what is more important, the 200 mile limit.and the continuation of the fishing industry will easure a continuation of our Newfoundland way of life which is envied by most people in other parts of' the North American Continent. It will represent to us, Mr. Speaker, an enormous opportunity for the future growth and development of our fishing industry.

The outcome,! am convinced,will have a revolutionary effect on our people and on the social and economic life of · our Province~ Mr. Speaker, I have had the pleasure 1 during the past eight months)of travelling pretty well to every major \ fishing area in the Province. I have gone to the four corners of the Province, including Labrador,where we have had a series of regional fisheries meetings, totalling in all fourteen. AN RON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! MR. W. CARTER: During my travels I have witnessed what I think is a revolutionary trend amongst our fishermen. It is obvious

March 1, 1977 Tape No. 649 NM- 2 MR. w. CARTER: to me now,having travelled around the Province and having talked to many thousands of our fishermen ... that they are much better equipped, much better financed, and have a much healthier attitude toward the fisheries and what is more important, Mr. Speaker, they are obviously determined now to have a much greater say in the affairs of their industry, in their community and their Province. And that I believe is a very important and a very healthy sign. At these meetings, Mr.

Speaker, we have given the fishermen a chance to express to us their concerns with what is happening in the industry, to pass on to us their ideas, suggestions 1 and in some cases,their criticisms. By the same token it has given our people, the staff of the Department of Fisheries,a chance to get around and to see first~hand what is happening in the Province and to listen first-hand to the fishermen and to their problems.

And I can say this now. in all since~t~- tnat having had these fourteen meetings around the Province that my officials and I are much better equipped to deal with some of the problems that we have encountered and have a much better idea as to exactly what the fishing industry is all about, and what steps we must take to ensure that it improves and in so doing affords the people who are engaged in it a much greater chance to derive• a decent living for themselves and their families. DR.- FARRELL:·-· - - . Hear ! Hear! MR. W. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, in recent weeks and months we have heard a lot of talk about joint ventures, about foreign landings, West Germans, under-utilized plant capacity and maybe I can spend a moment or two explaining to the House exactly what our position is in these matters. With the declaration of the 20a mile limit the total allowable catch in the Northwest Atlantic, in Northern areas has been established 1.775

Marcq 1, 1977 Tape no. 650 Page 1 - mw Mr. W. Carter. 160,000 metric ~- ~onl!. of fish, that is cod fish, 160,000 tons. In 1968, Mr. Speaker, in the same area, the total allowable catch was established by ICNAF at being 807,000 metric tons. I repeat, 807,000 metric tons in the ICNAF areas in 1968. In 1973 the total allowable catch was designated by ICNAF, which then was the governing body, at 354,509 metric tons. In 1975 the total allowable catch was established at 554,000 metic tons •. In 1976, I believe, the total allowable catch was established at around 300,000 metri .c tons.

I repeat, 1968, there were 807,000 metric tons.;in 1973, 354,000 metric tons; · 1975, 554,000 m~tric tons; 1976, 300,000 metric tons, and now in 1977, the total allowable catch has been established at 166,000 metric tons. So there has been a reduction from a high in 1968 of 807,000 tons to a low in 1977 of 166,000 metric tons. MR. 0 'BRIEN: Would the hon. minister permit? Am I to understand, Sir, that in 1973 we had 354,000 metric tons and then in the following year 1974 it came up to 554,000? MR. W. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, I can check my figures.It will take a .little wh!l_~ _ to check this, but I will before I take my seat. ! will confirm that figure. MR. o•BRIEN : It looks like it went down and then it came up for one year and .went down again the following year. MR. W. CARTER: Yes, I think, Mr. Speaker, there might be - I shall get that information before I take my seat and correct it if it is false. MR. 0 'BRIEN: Thank you. MR.. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the point that I am trying to make is that, like I said, the total allowable catch of cod in these areas 1776

March 1, 1977 Tape no. 650 Page 2- mw Mr. W. CARTER: has been drastically reduced • It . has - ~e~~- ~~~e-~ned by scien_tists, who are satisfied that a sufficient cushion has been_built _in to allow the stocks to replenish and to replenish themselves to where they were, say, prior to the great onslaught in that area prior to 1968. So now, Mr. Speaker, you talk about joint ventures, co-operative fishing ventures.

The conditions under which the 200 mile limit was declared was basically the unified text of the Law of the Sea Conference which stated that while the coastal states will have the right to manage and harvest the resources within their 200 mile limit, stocks that are surplu~ to that states needs will have to be allocated to foreign countries. That is one condition. And the second condition, Mr.

Speaker, is that prior to the actual declaration of the 200 mile limit, that Canada had entered into five bilateral agreements with five ICNAF countries, Russia, Poland, Spain, I believe, Norway, Portugal, I think, and maybe one or two other countries in which it was agreed that stocks surplus ; to the Canadian catching effort would be allocated to these countries.

So whether we like to believe it or not, whether we care to believe it or not, under these agreements, and under the terms and conditions under which the 200 mile limit was declared, Canada has very little choice - indeed it does not have any choice but to allow other countries to fish that portion of the total allowable catch that 1777

March 1,1977 Tape 651 AH-1 MR. CARTER: and it has been designated as being surplus to the Canadian fishing effort. MR.. SMALLWOOD: Is that the case morally or is it part of the declaration by Canada and by other countries, the United States and I see Cuba has now done so • do they make it the legal rule, that you can fish if we let you, but you have no right unless we give you the right, is that the case? MR. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, the ships that are fishing now within the Canadian 200 mile limit are doing so by leave and licence of this country , but under conditions that have been laid down by the Law !)f the Sea Conference, and _ .consistent lvith the terms and conditions . - . that haVe been laid down in the fiVe bilateral agreementS Cha~ have hPPn sign~~ __ with the other ICNAF c:ountries. MR. SMALLWOOD:: The hon.gentleman is very gracious for letting me interrunt him.

What I 'WOuld like to know , and I am sure the House lvould like to know, and maybe the rest of the House knows, but I do not, if Canada decided, with regard to a given stretch of water, fhat we are not going to do . ~Y ~i~hi~g ~here ourse~~e~. for we are not going to be ready to do it for a certain period of time, and we are not going to let anybody else do it ,,, E!JtC_el)t : for the moral~ condemnation there might be around the world, is there anything to stop Canada taking that position1 MR.

CARTER: Mr: Speaker, the total allowable catch in 1977 was established by ICNAF, ICNAF1 of course> as the hon. member lf'.nows' is- MR. 'SMALLWOOD: For 1977. MR. CARTER: Yes, for 1977 .• -:-the international Commission of the North Atlantic Fisheries, made up of seventeen member nations around the worid. The quotas for 1977 were established by that body because Canada, I persume 1did not have time to get the necessary regime in place. MR • . SMALL WOOD : That was. this year. 1778

March 1,1977 Tape 651 AH-2 MR. CARTER: Yes for 1977. MR. S}f.ALLWOOD: And it ends this year. MR. CARTER: Yes it ends this year. 19787 hopefully, Canada then will be able to set their own quota~~~d we will have first call to ~atever has been disignated by the ~cientis~s, as being the total allowable catch in that particular area. Mr.

Speaker, Canada is a very sensitive nation, and rightly so~It is very proud of its image around the world 1~ It has been a fair and a responsible nation._, ___ in _ trading with the countries that are now almost begging,for the right to fish - in that area for the stocks~ ·----- that are surplus to our needs.

I do not think that Ca~da tomorrow, could adopt that"dog in the manager"attitude of saying , "Lood, _ e-."ren though the scientists will say that, you know,we can harvest a - -·· - 160 or 180 thousand tons of fish in that area, ~hat~we -are only __ going to allow to be caught what the Canadian effort can actually , c~~~h~: ·~~~ that I suggest .would be probably what, less than 50 thousand or 60 thousand metric tons. Now , maybe we can adopt that attitude, legally maybe we can, but morally , I do not think that Canada could afford that luxury.

And as ·a Canadian I am not sure I would want my: country to adopt that kind of an attitude. Bearing in .mind, and being satisfied that these quotas are established by people who are highly qualified, competent people, scientists, I cannot question their judgement the Premier cannot; none of us can really,in all fairness,challenge their judgement. If they say that the present stocks will allow for a harvesting of 160 thousand metric tons, when then who am I to say no, it is wrong, it is only a 120 thousand. Indeed, Dr.

Arthur May, a brillant young Newfoundland biologist only two days ago- confirmed that fact · during a meeting in Goose B~y with his minister; --· He is satisfied that the total allowable catch that was set by ICNAF in 1977, does in fact allow sufficient fish to 1.7/9

Tape 651 AH-3 MR. CARTER: rel$in .. to re"Pl~mis'Q. __ an4 to .. c::~n~erve. And I do not th.ink ~hat -~y· of us, can really question that judgement on their part. · This is ~ased on scientific information, scientific data, by people who are highly competent in that field, certainly more than we are. MR.. SMALLWOOD: · I thank the minister for that reply, very useful, and ve·ry valuable reply to my quest .ion. May I ask him another question while he is nn his feet and dealing with this matter ~of the fisheries? Young Mr. Russell; Hazen Russell's son," one of his two sons ,made a speech· somewhere, I heard it - - - --~ - ----- -- 1.780 y

March 1, 1977 Tape 652 PK- 1 Mr. Smallwood: on the radio. I heard quotations from it, to the effect (

a) that our existing fleet of draggers is big enough and good enough for the next fourteen or fifteen years for the foreseeable increase in the catch because they have been taking only 40 per cent to 50 per cent of their capacity. And number, two, as to the general all round accuracy of that statement by Mr. Russell. And number threeiand I do' appreciate the minister's generosity in letting me trepass on his time this way, but I am trying to help the debate, 'I am not trying to hinder.~the problem he raises of marketing.

You know~ if we do increase our total_ ~r~~~~ti~n w~~ch w_~ n~ed _ t~ do for the sake of the men fishing, for the·sake of the shore plants and for .the sake of the economy in general, but if we do how sqon might we run into the problem of market' He suggests that it would be quite a problem. MR. W. CARTER: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I heard the comments of .Mr.Russell and while I disagree with most of what he had to say I agree with some in that, and he said, and quite rightly so>that at the I present time :Newfoundland's catching effort offshore a%d: inshore is utilized at about 50 per cent of its actual catching capability. For example, in the offshore fleet we have now _ about, I believe it is eighty-seven offshore ships, some twenty -seven side trawlers, and the balance are stern trawlers ,-~These - ships are capable of landing - -- . an average of 7.5 million pounds of fish a year based on twenty- six trips _.per year. MR.

SMALLWOOD : Each ship? MR. W. CARTER: Twenty-six,. yes. .' MR. SMALLWOOD: Each. MR. W. CARTER: Each. But in fact they are landing about half that much. They are landing about 3.5 million pounds of fish a year on the basis of the same number of trips, which means that the total offshore fishing fleet is now operating at about 50 per cent of its real operating capability. 1781.

March 1, 1977 Tape 652 PR! - 2 MR.. SMALLWOOD: But these ships will get old. Surely it is all right to say this number, and you might have the same number fifteen years from now, b~t_ they lnig~t no~ b~ -~he same ship MR. W. CARTER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am not suggesting, Sir, that we - ~~J!ls_tbe content now to rest on· our oars 7 as it were,and to say, look we do not need to build ships because we have eighty- seven offshore ships, and they are capable of landing a half a billion pounds a year when in fact they are only landing 290 million pounds or something like that.

Of course, we will have to replenish our offshore __ ;leet_as in _ fact, we are going to have to b~ef up and replenish the inshore fleet. But the timing ;ts all impo~ant . __ _ Mr. Speaker, because I am not sure,for example, that we would want to get involved this year 7 in 1977,in laying the keels of eight or ten or twelve offshore ships. It must be phased in consistent with the increase in the amount of fish that is available, that will be available under the 200 mile limit, and again consistent with the ' attrition or the number of ships that are leaving the fleet for a number of reasons.

And to that end this government is committed. • We . are committed to the rebuilding of that fleet one way or the other to some point down the road, and hopefully not too far,where we will ( be able to harvest the fish that will be ne~essary to insure wel~ eventually; full employment in our large number of processing plants ·in the Province. · .SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. W. CARTER: To that end I should point out, Mr.

Speaker, that in the Province at the present time we have fourteen plants that - service .the offshore fleet.we call them all-year-around plants .We have 101 plants that are catering to the inshore fleet, plants that operate maybe twenty-five, thirty, forty per cent of their time. We have the processing capability of 1.2 billion pounds a year, 1,200 million pounds of fish a year, when in fact, we are only this year 1976 we will land and process slightly in excess of 500 million pounds. So you see we 1782

March 1, 1977 Tape 653 IB-1 MR.. W. CARTER: - ~e have fish plants that have cost substantial amounts of money both from the public and private sector that are now_oper~t~ng at less than forty per cent of their true operating capacity. I ask you - - Mr. Speaker, what business today can really make a contribution to the community, the Province or can really do justice to the people who are depending on that plant, that operation, that business for a livelihood if they can only operate or if, at least, their coors are locked, if the plant is lying dormant for seventy per cent of its time.

That is oue of 'the big problems today that ~re have in Newfoundland. 'MR. SM..&LLWOOD : :r.~r. Speaker, the figure of forty per cent, of course, · includes not only the plant~ that operate more or less all the year- round but it includes the plants on the Northeast Coast that just close down for a large part of the year. Ave_raged out it comes to about forty per cent. JAR • W • CARTEF : Averaged, ~{r. Speaker,, we have the processing _ capability of 1,200 million pounds of fish a year based on an eight hour shift - MR.. S}".ALL WOOD : All of them? ~- · W. CARTER: Yes, all of them.

Based on an eight hour shift, 250 days per shift. Now if you want to have it two shift 1 which is not at all unusual 1 well theri~of courseJyou can multiply that and you have a capab~lity of 2.4 billion pounds. Be that as it may,the plants that we have on the basis of landings in 1975 which was in the order of 400 million pounds meant that the plants wereJon the average,operating at thirty per cent of their real operating capability. In 1976 that figure will increase slightly because, as I said earlier ·; landings have increased.

We have a longliner fleet at the present time of 600 boats ranging in length from thirty-two feet up to a maximum of sixty-five feet. We have about 6,000 small traditional Newfoundland fishing boats manned by probably a man and his son. We are not unaware, Mr. Speaker, that the longliner fleet is depleting. 1783

¥..arch 1 ~ 1977 Tape 653 IB-2 MR. H. CARTER: Attrition is. taking care of a substantial number of these ships every year~ ships that are leaving the industry because of old age or being lost at sea and this, that and the other thing. '· Government will be announcing .- I think I can say this without revealing too much before the estimates are brought down a~d the budget - but we will be undertaking a programme to revitalize the inshore fishing fleet ·and dotng it very substantially.

We will be undertaking plans in the immediate future to find ways to increase the catching effort , with respect to the offshore fleet and with respect to the ice infested inaccessible areas of the Northwest Atlantic where that great last stock of codfish are to be found. MR. S¥_ALLHOO!>: Would the minister permit me? If this were in Committee of Supply, of course, 'to7e could chat back and forth and I do appreciate it. I value highly the minister's speech, very highly. It is wonderfully useful information.

When he speaks of a fleet of approximately 600 longliners he is talking of boats whichJin the main arcund the Province) With __ a--few exceptions ~down on the Northwest Coast, for a year or so,there around P4gged Harbour and Doting Cove, Musgrave Harbour with the exception of a few spots, the minister is talking about a fleet which has been on hard times, increasingly so because of the smaller number of f.ish they have been able to get and the smaller size. So it has become a business that just did not pay. Some of them turned to catching crab and this and that.

Now ~y ,question is this - A.."'l RON • r-'EMBER: And herring. MR. S¥ALLWOOD: .And herring, yes. Hy question is this~ As the stocks in the sea1 thanks to the 200-mile limit in the next three, four or five years, as the stocks replenish and increase in numbers and size of fish, does the minister see the longliner coming back,staging an important come-back in Newfoundland? }'P. . W. CAP_TEP.: I am not convinced, r'r. Speaker, that we need 600 longliners. In fact I believe there are 1.784 •'

March 1, 1977 Tape No. 654 NM- 1 MR. W. CARTER: certain opinions in Ottawa that would say maybe 300 ·or 400 longliners would suffice. But the longliner I think will play a very, very important role in the continuance of the inshore fishery. When the longliner was first conceived I think it was built mainly to fish 'for cod. But since then of course there has been a lot of diversification. They are now getting into herring. They are now getting into the crab fishery. Of course up in the Port au Choix area they are heavily involved in the shrimp fishery.

So consequently we must now build a more multi-purpose longliner, which is what we are working on now. It might very well be that we will have to graduate from tha tradition~! wooden ship with a thirteen year life span into maybe a more modern, more powerful steel or maybe aluminum ship which will have a life span of probably twenty­ five years and of course that will have a number of very worth­ while advantages for the fishermen. Because today the building of a longliner is an expensive proposition. Today a longlfner operator; fully equipped, is a big businessman.

He has probably got an investment for which he is responsible one way. or the other, maybe as-high as $400,000 or $500,000. MR. SMALLWOOD : · MR. W. CARTER: They are bigger than the big merchant ships - I told the fishermen in Port au·Choix on Saturday, at a meeting up there that they look at the general merchant with his shelves full of dry goods and groceries and in that community he is looked upon as being the big shot.

He is the big entrepreneur in that community, where in fact almost the lowliest fisherman in that community would probably have a much bigger investment, on a much more capital intensive business than that general merchant would have. So consequently, Mr. Speaker, we have - if I can just continue just for a moment, consequently we have now to get involved in a more powerful, and a more multi-purpose 1.785

March 1, 1977 Tape No. 654 NM- 2 MR. W. CARTER: longliner fleet, and that is going to cost a lot of money. And therein, Mr. Speaker, lies another problem in that Ottawa some years ago discontinued their subsidy on boats over forty-five feet. The result being now that only longliners under forty-five feet qualify for the old traditional federal bounty.

And without some kind of a bounty I am sure that the average fisherman· today cannot afford to carry the kind of a debt-load that would be involved in the building of a boat that might cost him $400,000 and maybe another:~l~g_'.oo __ to equ~_wi_~~t~~- ~ne~e~~_ary __ power tools and nets to enable him to successfully prosecute the fishery. So we are faced with a very serio~ problem there. Of course then there is the question of licencing. Ottawa has,to a large extentJput an embargo on the licencing of boats, certainly boats that would fish for certain species.

And again in Port aux Choix last week I had a number of complaints from fishermen who wanted to get involved in the shrimp fishery, lobster fishery, but who were forbidden because they could not get a licence from the federal government. - - - - ~' - ----- ---- But, Mr. Sp~ak~r, the problem that we have to face, Sir, and I am sure we are going to find a solution to it, is the business of finding a ways and mea~ to fully · utilize the large capital intensive processing capability that we have in the Province. MR. NEARY: . Would the minister a~low me? MR. W.

CARTER: I only have three minutes left so ~ill you please make it - MR. NEARY: By leave, I am quite prepared to let the minister carry on because the information is so valuable. But the question that I want to put to the minister is this, that we probably do have enough longliners in this Province but the trouble is that 1.786

March 1, 1977 Tape No. 654 NM- 3 MR. NEARY: they are not fishing on a year-round basis. What is the possibility of encouraging fishermen who own 1ongllners on the East Coast) for instance, where you have a Su=mer or a Fall fishery, to move out on'the Southwest comer where they have a Winter fishery and a fishery pretty well on a year-round basis? Because the minister is quite right. They cannot meet their commitments fishing five or six months out of a year. Whe~eas r. 1.787 ' •

March 1, 1977 Tape no. 655 Page 1 - mw Mr. Neary. if they were fishing on a year-round basis with the heavy investment they have, if they were mobile, could move around the Province, go out on the Southwest coast in the Wi