British Columbia Hansard — Tuesday, May 20, 2008

H0520pm-09

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session, 38th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Tuesday, May 20, 2008 Afternoon Sitting Volume 33, Number 9 THE HONOURABLE BILL BARISOFF, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC FOURTH SESSION, 38TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................Hon. Gordon Campbell Deputy Premier and Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...................... Hon.

Shirley Bond Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ........................................................................................................ Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Advanced Education and Minister Responsible for Research and Technology ........................................... Hon. Murray Coell Minister of Agriculture and Lands.......................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Pat Bell Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism............................................................................... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Minister of Children and Family Development ................................................................................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Minister of State for Childcare ........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Linda Reid Minister of Community Services and Minister Responsible for Seniors’ and Women’s Issues........................................... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Economic Development and Minister Responsible for the Asia-Pacific Initiative and the Olympics.................Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of Employment and Income Assistance ...........................................................................................................Hon.

Claude Richmond Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources .......................................................................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Minister of State for Mining......................................................................................................................................................Hon. Kevin Krueger Minister of Environment and Minister Responsible for Water Stewardship and Sustainable Communities ...............Hon.

Barry Penner Minister of Finance.......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Carole Taylor Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for Housing ............................................................................. Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Health ......................................................................................................................................................................Hon.

George Abbott Minister of Labour and Citizens’ Services ......................................................................................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General and Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations............... Hon. John van Dongen Minister of Small Business and Revenue and Minister Responsible for Regulatory Reform............................................ Hon.

Rick Thorpe Minister of Tourism, Sport and the Arts ......................................................................................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Minister of State for ActNow B.C. ............................................................................................................................................ Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of Transportation...........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Falcon LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Official Opposition .........................................................................................................................................................Carole James Deputy Speaker ....................................................................................................................................................................................Sindi Hawkins Deputy Speaker ...........................................................................................................................................................................

Katherine Whittred Assistant Deputy Speaker.....................................................................................................................................................................Sue Hammell Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole................................................................................................................................................. Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .........................................................................................................................E.

George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant.........................................................................................................................................................................................Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .......................................................................................................................................................Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees ....................................................................................................................................... Craig H.

James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk ..........................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms............................................................................................................................................................................. A.A.

Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ...................................................................................................................................................................Jo-Anne Kern Legislative Librarian ..................................................................................................................................................................................Jane Taylor Legislative Comptroller...............................................................................................................................................................................Dan Arbic

Party Standings: Liberal 46; New Democratic 33 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) .................................................................... Shuswap Austin, Robin (NDP)............................................................................. Skeena Bains, Harry (NDP).................................................................. Surrey-Newton Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)..........................................Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Hon.

Pat (L) .............................................................Prince George North Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................ East Kootenay Black, Iain (L) ............................................................ Port Moody–Westwood Bloy, Harry (L)................................................................................Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).....................................Prince George–Mount Robson Brar, Jagrup (NDP).....................................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Campbell, Hon.

Gordon (L) .........................................Vancouver–Point Grey Cantelon, Ron (L)..............................................................Nanaimo-Parksville Chong, Hon. Ida (L) .................................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...........................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Christensen, Hon. Tom (L) ................................................. Okanagan-Vernon Chudnovsky, David (NDP) ......................................... Vancouver-Kensington Coell, Hon.

Murray (L) .....................................Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...........................................Fort Langley–Aldergrove Conroy, Katrine (NDP) .......................................... West Kootenay–Boundary Coons, Gary (NDP) ....................................................................... North Coast Cubberley, David (NDP)............................................................Saanich South de Jong, Hon.

Michael (L) ...................................Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Dix, Adrian (NDP) .........................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Evans, Corky (NDP).................................................................Nelson-Creston Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................

Surrey-Cloverdale Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...............................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Fleming, Rob (NDP) ..............................................................Victoria-Hillside Fraser, Scott (NDP) ..............................................................Alberni-Qualicum Gentner, Guy (NDP).......................................................................Delta North Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................ Comox Valley Hammell, Sue (NDP) ................................................... Surrey–Green Timbers Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) ..................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Hawes, Randy (L).......................................................... Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Sindi (L) ............................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................ Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon.

Gordon (L).....................................................Surrey–White Rock Horgan, John (NDP)......................................................Malahat–Juan de Fuca Horning, Al (L)........................................................... Kelowna–Lake Country Ilich, Hon. Olga (L)...............................................................Richmond Centre James, Carole (NDP).......................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Jarvis, Daniel (L)..................................................

North Vancouver–Seymour Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ........................................... Esquimalt-Metchosin Krog, Leonard (NDP)......................................................................... Nanaimo Krueger, Hon. Kevin (L) .....................................Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)........................... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lali, Harry (NDP)........................................................................

Yale-Lillooet Lee, Richard T. (L)....................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L).............................................................. Peace River South Les, John (L)........................................................................ Chilliwack-Sumas Macdonald, Norm (NDP).................................... Columbia River–Revelstoke MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................

Bulkley Valley–Stikine Mayencourt, Lorne (L).......................................................Vancouver-Burrard McIntyre, Joan (L).................................................West Vancouver–Garibaldi Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) .................................................. Peace River North Nuraney, John (L).............................................................Burnaby-Willingdon Oppal, Hon. Wally, QC (L).......................................... Vancouver-Fraserview Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...........................................................

Chilliwack-Kent Polak, Mary (L) ....................................................................................Langley Puchmayr, Chuck (NDP)...................................................... New Westminster Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ............................................................. Surrey-Whalley Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................ Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L).............................................................

Kamloops Robertson, Gregor (NDP) ................................................Vancouver-Fairview Roddick, Valerie (L).......................................................................Delta South Routley, Doug (NDP)..................................................... Cowichan-Ladysmith Rustad, John (L) ........................................................

Prince George–Omineca Sather, Michael (NDP).........................................Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast Simpson, Bob (NDP)..................................................................Cariboo North Simpson, Shane (NDP) ....................................................Vancouver-Hastings Sultan, Ralph (L) ....................................................West Vancouver–Capilano Taylor, Hon.

Carole (L).....................................................Vancouver-Langara Thorne, Diane (NDP) .................................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Thorpe, Hon. Rick (L).......................................................Okanagan-Westside Trevena, Claire (NDP) ..................................................................North Island van Dongen, Hon. John (L)............................................ Abbotsford-Clayburn Whittred, Katherine (L)........................................

North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wyse, Charlie (NDP) .................................................................Cariboo South Yap, John (L)...................................................................Richmond-Steveston LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn....................................................Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman .......................................... Hon. Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum..........................................................................

Scott Fraser Bulkley Valley–Stikine ...........................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North ...........................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds........................................................................Raj Chouhan Burnaby-Willingdon................................................................... John Nuraney Burquitlam.......................................................................................Harry Bloy Cariboo North..............................................................................

Bob Simpson Cariboo South..............................................................................Charlie Wyse Chilliwack-Kent ..................................................................Hon. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas............................................................................... John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke................................................. Norm Macdonald Comox Valley........................................................................ Hon.

Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville..............................................................Diane Thorne Cowichan-Ladysmith ................................................................. Doug Routley Delta North ...................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ............................................................................. Valerie Roddick East Kootenay................................................................................

Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin.........................................................Maurine Karagianis Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops.....................................................................Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ............................................Hon. Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country.................................................................. Al Horning Kelowna-Mission ......................................................................

Sindi Hawkins Langley ...........................................................................................Mary Polak Malahat–Juan de Fuca .................................................................. John Horgan Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................ Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ..................................................... Michael Sather Nanaimo......................................................................................

Leonard Krog Nanaimo-Parksville .....................................................................Ron Cantelon Nelson-Creston .............................................................................Corky Evans New Westminster .................................................................. Chuck Puchmayr North Coast....................................................................................

Gary Coons North Island ...............................................................................Claire Trevena North Vancouver–Lonsdale................................................Katherine Whittred North Vancouver–Seymour..........................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head ........................................................... Hon. Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon......................................................... Hon. Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside..............................................................Hon.

Rick Thorpe Peace River North.......................................................... Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South..................................................................... Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley .................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain ............................................Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Westwood.................................................................... Iain Black Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...............................................

Nicholas Simons Prince George North.................................................................... Hon. Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson ............................................Hon. Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................ John Rustad Richmond Centre......................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Richmond East........................................................................Hon.

Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston...........................................................................John Yap Saanich North and the Islands ............................................ Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South ........................................................................ David Cubberley Shuswap............................................................................Hon. George Abbott Skeena.......................................................................................... Robin Austin Surrey-Cloverdale............................................................... Hon.

Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers ................................................................Sue Hammell Surrey-Newton............................................................................... Harry Bains Surrey–Panorama Ridge.................................................................Jagrup Brar Surrey-Tynehead ....................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley...........................................................................Bruce Ralston Surrey–White Rock ............................................................Hon.

Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard..............................................................Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview.............................................................Gregor Robertson Vancouver-Fraserview .................................................Hon.

Wally Oppal, QC Vancouver-Hastings .................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-Kensington.......................................................David Chudnovsky Vancouver-Kingsway ......................................................................Adrian Dix Vancouver-Langara ........................................................... Hon. Carole Taylor Vancouver–Mount Pleasant........................................ Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................Hon.

Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena.........................................................Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill...................................................................

Carole James Victoria-Hillside ...........................................................................Rob Fleming West Kootenay–Boundary........................................................Katrine Conroy West Vancouver–Capilano...........................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ........................................................Joan McIntyre Yale-Lillooet..................................................................................... Harry Lali

CONTENTS Tuesday, May 20, 2008 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Statements..................................................................................................................... .......................................................... 12595 Mourning for earthquake victims in China Hon. S.

Bond Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... ............................................ 12595 Introduction and First Reading of Bills........................................................................................ ....................................... 12596 Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act Amendment Act, 2008 (Bill M213) K.

Conroy Statements (Standing Order 25B) .............................................................................................................................. ........... 12597 First nations annual elders gathering G. Coons Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary J. Yap Quintin and Elizabeth Robertson C. Wyse Abbotsford regional hospital and cancer centre R. Hawes Esquimalt Naval and Military Museum M. Karagianis Behaviour of MLAs in the chamber D.

MacKay Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ....................................................... 12599 B.C. Ferries board remuneration G. Coons Hon. K. Falcon M. Karagianis Funding for post-secondary education R. Fleming Hon. M. Coell B. Simpson Availability of beds at Vernon Jubilee Hospital A. Dix Hon. G. Abbott Cowichan Valley schools and child care spaces J. Horgan Hon. S. Bond D. Routley Child care spaces in B.C. C. Trevena Hon. L.

Reid Committee of the Whole House................................................................................................... ........................................ 12604 Transportation Investment (Port Mann Twinning) Amendment Act, 2008 (Bill 14) M. Karagianis Hon. K. Falcon B. Ralston Report and Third Reading of Bills .............................................................................................. ......................................... 12623 Transportation Investment (Port Mann Twinning) Amendment Act, 2008 (Bill 14)

Committee of the Whole House................................................................................................... ........................................ 12623 Greenhouse Gas Reduction (Cap and Trade) Act (Bill 18) S. Simpson Hon. B. Penner Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................. 12626 Estimates: Ministry of Health (continued) A. Dix Hon. G. Abbott R. Chouhan C. Trevena S. Fraser H. Lali C. Puchmayr B. Simpson K. Conroy B. Ralston J. Brar

12595 TUESDAY, MAY 20, 2008 The House met at 1:34 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Statements MOURNING FOR EARTHQUAKE VICTIMS IN CHINA Hon. S. Bond: On behalf of the Premier, I would like to acknowledge that on Monday, China began three days of mourning for the more than 34,000 victims of the earthquake that struck last week. British Columbians join the people of China and people around the world in sorrow for the devastating effect of this tragedy. It is dif- ficult to imagine the impact that this has had on an entire nation and on family and friends in all parts of the world.

As the Premier said last week, British Columbia's emergency personnel and resources are available to assist in this very difficult time. The Premier has also emphasized the province's sympathy and offer of sup- port to the government of China through the Chinese consulate in Vancouver. [1335] I know that all members of the Legislature join me in extending our condolen ces, our support and our prayers during these days of mourning. I ask that all members join together as we honour and remember the victims of the earthquake and their families as they cope with this very tragic event. Introductions by Members C.

Wyse: Today in the House, I welcome Irene Robertson of Victoria and Caroline Robertson of rural Alberta. The Robertson sisters are former residents of Williams Lake and the daughters of Quint and Liz Robertson, longtime friends of ours. I'd ask the House to make them both welcome. J. Yap: There are two people in the visitors' gallery I would like to introduce today: Steven and Carolyn Dribnenki, who have been spending some time in our beautiful capital for a wedding this past weekend. They are visiting from Regina, Saskatchewan. Would the House please join me in making them feel welcome. D.

Routley: I would like the House to help me wel- come two parents of school kids from our school district in Cowichan Valley. Hannah Seymour is the chair of the Koksilah Elementary PAC. Hannah is committed to furthering the Cowichan people's traditional ways through that unique school. Michelle Martin is from Tansor Elementary and is a tireless advocate for her neighbourhood school. Will the House please help me welcome Hannah and Michelle. R.

Cantelon: It's my pleasure to introduce a num- ber of distinguished guests who have travelled far to be with us here today: Minist er Horst Guenther, a retired federal associate minister of Labour and Social Affairs of the government of Germany and a 22-year veteran of the German Bundestag; secretary Steven Hill, admin- istrator of the Washington State Health Care Authority and co-chair of the International Disability Management Standards Council; Dr.

Joac him Breuer, chief executive officer of the German federal workers compensation system and co-chair of the International Disability Management Standards Counc il; Prof. Allan Clayton, Deakon University, Melbourne, Australia, an internation- ally recognized workers compensation systems expert; Dr. Donal MacAnaney, Univer sity of Dublin, Ireland, foremost European researcher on mental health issues and return to work of di sabled workers; Mr.

Ralph McGuinn, former chief executive of WorkSafe B.C. and chair of the International Disability Management Standards Council on the global audit; also Joyce Gravelle, Kathy Eccles, Heather Persons and Wolfgang Zimmerman with the National Institute of Disability Management and Research. Please make these guests very welcome in our House. S. Fraser: I will follow suit on introductions. One of my constituents and a good friend, Wolfgang Zimmerman, is in the audience today. He is the most powerful advocate for disability management in the world. Please make him feel very welcome. L.

Mayencourt: Today in the gallery we have some visitors from King George high school, which is in my neighbourhood of Vancouve r-Burrard. Even though they are the best high school in my riding and the only high school in my riding, I want to acknowledge the hard work…. They are a groundbreaki ng school, and that's due in large part to the leadership of Terry Howe, who is the principal there, and also quite notably one of their teachers, Damian Wilmann. Damian was recently hon- oured by the Premier as one of British Columbia's most forward-thinking teachers, and we're very, very proud of him.

He could not make it here for the ceremony to acknowledge that. Would the members of the House please welcome all the students, welcome Terry Howe, but give a special round of applause for Damian Wilmann. J. Horgan: I join my colleague from Cowichan- Ladysmith in welcoming some visiting parents from Ecole Mill Bay in my constituency of Malahat–Juan de Fuca. Joining us in the precincts today for meetings with the Minister of State for Childcare about im- portant issues are LeAnn Williams, Blaine Cassel, Erin Arrowsmith and her lovely daughter Kate. Would the House please make the four of them welcome. [1340] Hon.

L. Reid: I have many guests in the chamber today. First, June Draude is visiting us, a dear colleague of mine for many years, representing the province of

12596 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MAY 20, 2008 Saskatchewan. She is the Mini ster of First Nations and Métis Relations. I would ask the House to please make her welcome. Visiting from Zheng Sheng College in Hong Kong are 14 students, three teachers and their three Canadian hosts.

The Integration Youth Services Society, led by Esther Ho, along with the Richmond Community As- sessment and Action Networ k are hosting a Canadian youth drug-free project which brings students from Hong Kong to spend four weeks in Vancouver, San Francisco and Los Angeles, speaking with youth in North America about issues of substance abuse, cross-cultural educa- tion, personal development and community outreach. We have Mr. Chan Siu Cheuk, Mr. Lam Hay Sing, Ms. Leung Kwai Fong, Miss Choi, Miss Ng, Mr. Luk, a second Mr. Luk, Mr. Lau, Mr. Tang, Mr. Benoza, Mr. Gurung, Mr. Leung, Mr. Wong , Mr. Lui, Mr. Woo, Mr.

Chan, Mr. Wong, and with the youth services, Esther Ho, Tina Tsai and Rocky Zhang. I would ask the House to please make them incredibly welcome. Hon. T. Christensen: Today over the noon hour in the rotunda, I had the pleasu re to present the progress report for the child and youth mental health plan that was launched in 2003. I was joined there by a group of parents, counsellors, clinicians, mental health workers and advocates, all of whom have been very instrumental in the success of that plan. I'm pleased to welcome to the House and hope that you will all join me in welcoming Dr.

Jean Moore, Donna Murphy and Lisa Hansen from FORCE, which is aptly named in terms of its advocacy on behalf of families and children and youth with mental health challenges. As well, we have two school counsellors from dis- trict 61, Helen Lenny and Diane Brown, and five folks from the Ministry of Children and Family Development in different parts of the province, doing great work on behalf of children and youth in the mental health area: Sarah Flans from Burnaby and New Westminster, David Barker from Trail, Kathi Camilleri from Campbell River, Karla Tait and Sandy Wiens.

Would the House please join me in welcoming all of them. Hon. R. Thorpe: I would ask all members of the House to please welcome Dan D'Autremont. Dan is the Minister of Government Services in the new govern- ment of Saskatchewan. Would everyone please make him welcome. R. Hawes: In the gallery today is a great supporter and friend of many of us on the government side of the House, Terri Rainey from Maple Ridge. Could the House please make her welcome. J. Horgan: Many members will know that we just had the Victoria Day Parade here in Victoria.

It's an annual event that brings thousands and thousands of people to the community. I ju st want the Hou se to k now that from my alm a mater, the Reynolds marching band was voted the No. 1 one band in the parade. Also our pages — Dylan, Reid, Kayla, Nicki and Ross — are in the marching band. Could the House please congratulate them. Hon. I. Chong: Today in the precinct is a school group visiting from my former alma mater, Mount Douglas High School. There are 29 people — 25 grade 11 students and four adults. The teacher accompanying them is Mrs. Susan Phillips.

Unfortunately, they are touring right now and will probably be joining us at the beginning of question period and leaving shortly thereafter. At this time, I would still like the House to offer their hearty welcome to them, as they will be joining us shortly. C. Trevena: I would like to join the Minister of Children and Families in welcoming Kathi Camilleri to the House. She has recently joined the ministry. I know that after many years with Laichwiltach Family Life, it was a sad loss for them to lose Kathy and a great benefit for the ministry to have her. I hope the House will make her very welcome.

Introduction and First Reading of Bills FREEDOM OF INFORMATION AND PROTECTION OF PRIVACY ACT AMENDMENT ACT, 2008 K. Conroy presented a bi ll intituled Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act Amendment Act, 2008. K. Conroy: I move introduction of the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act Amendment Act, 2008, for first reading. [1345] Motion approved. K. Conroy: It gives me great pleasure today to be introducing a piece of legislation that amends the Free- dom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act in order to restore public access to information.

The amendments increase the scope of the act to include information from quasi-public bodies in order to preserve public access to information concerning bodies that are performing governmental functions. Control over excessive costs also makes information more readily available to the public. Amendments to

section 13 narrow policy advice exceptions, preventing information from being with- held when it is not directly related to policy or when the relevant government decision has already been made, and restoring the purpose of this

section to its original intent. This act also returns the definition of "day" to its ordinary meaning and strengthens the principles of public interest paramount. As well, this act increase s the transparency of gov- ernment with regards to information available to the

TUESDAY, MAY 20, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 12597 public. By expanding the sc ope of the Freedom of Information Act, enhancing the public interest para- mount principle and limiting exemptions under

section 13, as recommended by th e Information and Privacy Commissioner, it restores a high standard for public access to information. Coupled with improvements in the time and cost involved, this act improves govern- ment accountability, transparency and openness. I move that this bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting after today. Bill M213, Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act Amendment Ac t, 2008, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) Mr. Speaker: Just before we get started on statements by members, I want to remind members, particularly those reading statements toda y, that they read this morning's Hansard. FIRST NATIONS ANNUAL ELDERS GATHERING G. Coons: I am proud to announce that the 32nd annual B.C. Elders Gather ing will be hosted by the Prince Rupert Kaien Island elders. For those of you that don't know, the annual elders gathering is an event that is much anticipated by first nations across the province. Since the first elders gathering in 1977, it has grown into an important yearly event rich in history and tradi- tion.

For example, in 1982 in Prince George they began the tradition of choosing the king and queen of the gathering. This year's king and queen are two of my closest and dearest friends, Leonard and Mona Alexcee from the Tsimshian Nation. They deserve the highest respect and praise, as they were chosen for their ability to lead and their demonstrated community spirit. Another tradition is the act of bidding for the totem pole carved by Frances Harne of the Stó:lô Nation for the very first elders gathering. Any group or nation wishing to host the next ye ar's gathering must success- fully bid on the pole.

This bidding is a highlight of the gathering. Usually several groups are competing through song, dance and by trying to convince every- body at the gathering that they have the support of their community and much to offer. Exaggeration is allowed, but the winner must be able to follow through on their promises. I'd like to congratulate the Kaien Island elders for their successful bidding on the pole this year.

I'm glad that they feel strongly ab out what our region has to offer, and I'm sure that the attending elders will be satisfied that the Kaien Island elders, and especially Leonard, did not exaggerate too much when they made their presentation about the beauty, the opportunity for fun and the welcoming atmosphere of Prince Rupert. I'll look forward to seeing elders from across the province in my home community this summer from July 7 to July 9.

I'm confid ent that this gathering will build on the success of gatherings held in the past, bridging the gap between our first nations youth and their elders, preserving traditions and building on passing on new ones. This year's theme is "The Elders are Watching," and we are all lucky that the elders are watching — watch- ing to ensure that we don't forget history and watching to ensure that in our rush towards the future, we do not make foolish decisions. CANADIAN COAST GUARD AUXILIARY J. Yap: I rise today to speak of a group of unsung heroes in my community and many others in British Columbia.

These men and women bravely risk their lives, take time away from their families and spend countless hours in training, all with the end goal of keeping people on our waters safe. I'm of course speaking of the Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary. The Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary Pacific is manned by approximately 1,000 highly trained volunteers who are there to lend search and rescue assistance ser- vices in the coastal waters of B.C. 24 hours a day every single day of the year.

In the past year the Coast Guard Auxiliary has been responsible for saving over 186 lives in our coastal waters and assisting countless others. These volunteers come to the rescue in boating emer- gencies, missing persons operations, medical evacuations and any other marine-related incident that needs assis- tance. My community, Richmond-Steveston, is fortunate to be looked after by Coast Guard Auxiliary Unit 10 since its beginnings in 1988.

This unit is recognized country- wide as one of the top units in Canada. [1350] The operations of the auxiliary Coast Guard unit 10 are funded mainly through two non-profit organiza- tions, the Richmond Marine Rescue Society and the Strait of Georgia Marine Rescue Society. These organi- zations work tirelessly to raise the funds needed to ensure that our waters are safe for all of us. I was fortunate to attend the unit 10 open house recently, and I felt humbled to mingle with the many volunteers who so selflessly work to ensure the safety of others. These exemplary citizens are what community spirit is all about.

I would like members of the House to give a huge thanks to all those men and women who put their own safety aside to help people when they need it most while on the waters of our coast. QUINTIN AND ELIZABETH ROBERTSON C. Wyse: During introductions today the House welcomed Irene and Caroline Robertson. As I mentioned, they are daughters of Quint and Liz Robertson, who died recently in Victoria. While the Robertsons moved to Victoria a few years ago, they lived in Williams Lake for almost 40 years. Sadly, they passed away recently, within ten months of

12598 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MAY 20, 2008 each other. Their passing leaves a hole in the lives of their family, their friends and in many communities throughout the Cariboo-Chilcotin. The Robertsons were a fine example of lives lived well. Their commitment and contribution to their community was remarkable. Both longtime teachers, they also served at different times as presidents of the local teachers association and as councillors for the city of Williams Lake and were life members of the Williams Lake Stampede Association. Quint also served two terms as trustee on the local school board.

Elizabeth established the first native Indian teacher education program through UBC, was a founding mem- ber of the Cariboo Friendship centre, the Station House Art Gallery and the Williams Lake Museum and Histori- cal Society. She also served on the National Parole Board, as a director of the Social Policy and Research Council of B.C. and as a returning officer for federal elections. She was recognized as Williams Lake Citizen of the Year in 1991 and received both the Canada 125 Medal and the Queen's Golden Jubilee Medal. Like Elizabeth, Quint was an involved and reliable volunteer in the community.

In addition to his terms as city councillor and school trustee, he served as president of the Royal Canadian Legion branch 139 in Williams Lake. Quint often visited schools on Remembrance Day to share his World War II naval experience with district students. He delivered meals to seniors and shut-ins and offered his help in many community organizations. I ask the House to join me in recognizing this wonderful couple, who demonstrated such a strong commitment to their community. They will be missed. ABBOTSFORD REGIONAL HOSPITAL AND CANCER CENTRE R.

Hawes: Last Friday a ceremony marked 100 days until the new Abbotsford regional hospital and cancer centre will open. It will be the first acute care hospital in British Columbia built from the ground up and fully integrated with a cancer centre, and what a remarkable facility it is. Rooms are all orientated to views of Mount Baker, rooftop gardens run into beautifully landscaped courtyards, and all have very large windows to allow in maximum natural light. There are no rooms with more than two beds. The new acute care hospital ex- pands OR capacity, maternity, ICU, pediatrics and psychiatric beds.

There are new services including geriatric beds, a cardiac care unit, oncology beds and a new dialysis unit. The cancer centre will house 12 chemotherapy chairs, four linear accelerators for radiation therapy as well as pain management and palliative care. Included with two new CT scanners will be the Fraser Valley's first MRI scanner. Already the hospital is attracting new physicians from across Canada and internationally. It's attracted much other attention as well. The building is built to the greenest standards, and certification under the LEED program is being sought.

The $330 million project was built as a P3 with Access Health Abbotsford and was on time and within budget. It was named the to p P3 of North America by the prestigious Project Finance magazine in 2005. Fraser Valley residents have waited patiently for over 20 years and through numerous false sod turnings and announcements for this new facility.

On August 24 of this year the hospital w ill see its first patients trans- ferred from the old MSA Hospital. [1355] On a personal note, my daughter-in-law Nikki is expecting a little sister for Dylan, Hayden, Nick and Benny, and her doctor projects August 24 as her due date. That would be my ninth grandchild and would make opening day extra special. ESQUIMALT NAVAL AND MILITARY MUSEUM M. Karagianis: My com m u nity of Esqu im alt has a long and proud naval and military tradition, and that pride is on display at CFB Esquimalt Naval and Military Museum.

Located in 19th century buildings at Naden on Canadian Forces Base Esquimalt, this museum informs and educates with displays and exhibits telling the remarkable story of Canada's naval presence on the west coast right from 1848, when Esquimalt Harbour began to be used as an anchorage. The museum is part of a national historical district and traces the ups and down s of the Canadian navy with a series of exhibits from the navy's formation in 1910 through the turbulence of two world wars, the conflict in Korea and beyond.

It tells the story of the Women's Royal Canadian Naval Service and the challenges of defending Can- ada's west coast. The museum represents the proud heritage of the Canadian Women's Army Corps, which had its beginnings at the Esquimalt base in 1941. Nearly 22,000 women served in the Canadian Women's Army Corps in the Second World War, paving the way for future generations of Canadian servicewomen and bringing the issues about equality to the forefront.

As well as exhibits and displays, CFB Esquimalt Naval and Military Museum houses an expanding archive and library that includes thousands of photographs, docu- ments, histories of Canadian naval vessels, navigational charts, biographies of important leaders in the Royal Canadian Navy and much, much more. The museum has grown in size and scope thanks to the tireless and dedicated efforts of its staff and volunteers. I hope the members here will join me in acknowledging the importance of their work and thank them for their contribution in celebrating our proud military and naval history.

I sincerely hope that members will take the advantage to go to the museum and view the things that they have on display there. BEHAVIOUR OF MLAs IN THE CHAMBER D. MacKay: Today I would like to take the two minutes allotted to me to speak about peace, order and

TUESDAY, MAY 20, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 12599 good government. That's what this place is all about. All of us in here were elec ted by our constituents for a period of time for that sole purpose. However, Mr. Speaker, I have to admit that there are times in this chamber when this is not happening. There are times when the behaviour of the members makes your job very difficult. The behaviour would not be tolerated in classrooms in our school system today. However, it does happen here in spite of your attempts to control elected members.

At times it sounds like dogs who bark just for the sake of barking in spite of the repeated attempts by the owners to get the dogs to be quiet. I received the following suggestion from a constituent, and I support this. In the case of the dog, the owner does have an electronic device that can be used to train dogs not to bark. I refer, of course, to the bark collars that send an electrical shock through the collar when the dog barks. I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that you could look at a similar device to cont rol members of this Legisla- ture.

All members who enter this chamber for the debates would be required to wear a similar device. Once recognized by the Speaker and when the member's speaker light is illuminated on here, the bark collar or bracelet would be neutralized. If another member tries to speak or heckle who has not been recognized and his or her light is not on, they would receive the appropriate electronic shock. This would ensure peace, order and good government. Mr. Speaker: Members, just a friendly reminder t h a t c e l l p h o n e s s h o u l d b e m a d e s u r e t h a t t h e y ' r e turned off.

I'm sure the offending member will report to their respective Whip right after question period. The other thing is that last week, leading right off where the member for Bulkley Valley–Stikine finished off, wasn't something…. I don't think any of us can be very proud of what took pl ace. Even though we won't have collars, certainly I think that we all should take heed of the fact that we do have a lot of school children watching and a lot of school children in the galleries at times. I think that we should act appropriately for what we were elected to do. [1400] Oral Questions B.C. FERRIES BOARD REMUNERATION G.

Coons: Earlier this year the Minister of Trans- portation's handpicked Ferries board gave themselves a hefty 60 percent pay raise and a big boost to their stipends, where the minister's own friends got in on the deal. Under this minister's watch, the B.C. Ferry Ser- vices board has increased from eight to 16 members. Directors' pay has shot up 140 percent from $20,000 to $48,000, and their stipends have shot up to $1,500 from $1,000. Looking back at the board minutes, they show that these decisions have happened over the years in a series of three-, four- and five-minute meetings — five- minute meetings, hon.

Speaker. Can the Minister of Transportation explain why his handpicked board should get $1,500 to meet for five minutes about their own pay while ferry users are being hit with ever-increasing fares? Hon. K. Falcon: Well, first of all, I think it would be helpful if the member actually got his information right for once. It's not a handpicked board by this govern- ment, and the member knows that. [Laughter.] Well, there's apparently laughing on the other side, s o t h e y f o r g e t t h a t i t ' s communities that put forward names. It's labour that puts forward names.

Nevertheless, I'll put that aside for a moment. The fact of the matter is that the member is confused. He's confusing the work of the B.C. Ferry Authority and the work of the B.C. Ferries board. Most members of the board serve on both of those boards. They may handle the information on…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. K. Falcon: Oh, I'm sorry this is a challenge for the members opposite. I'll try and walk them through corporate governance, if they'd like. I'm happy to take a few minutes on that. I realize that there's not a lot of cor- porate experience on the other side, so I'll go slow here.

The fact of the matter is… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. K. Falcon: …that the members that sit on the authority may only have a few minutes' meetings, be- cause they're talking about strategic direction. Then they move to the ferry corporation board, which oversees all of the decisions of the board. That takes the better part of a day. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. The member has a supplemental. G. Coons: Yes, the theme is ve ry evident here. It's another do-nothing minister who is also very confused about the boards that he has created. In February 2004 the B. C.

Ferry Authority board met for six minutes at the Pan Pacific Hotel in Vancou- ver. Eight of the nine directors were there. They each got a thousand bucks for thos e six minutes. That's just one of the examples, one of the many examples. Now there are even more directors making thousands more, with even bigger stipends . Taxpayers and ferry users are shelling out thousands of dollars while fares keep going up. This is a significant amount of money when communities up and down the coast are hurting. When will the minister finally get involved and put an end to this wasteful use of taxpayer money?

12600 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MAY 20, 2008 Hon. K. Falcon: I'll try and be more helpful and clarify things for the member, because obviously the member is not understanding what I said the first time. For the benefit of the member, the reason why they had an eight-minute meeting is because they were dealing with governance issues, and there were no governance issues necessary to spend more than eight minutes on. The member should know that they then immedi- ately move into the board issues dealing with the ferry corporation board.

Those are all of the issues dealing with the ferry corporation procurement — building new ships, investing in terminals — as, by the way, they have over the last seven years, with almost $1 billion in new investment to make up for the total mismanagement and lack of investment under that NDP government. Mr. Speaker: The member has a further supplemental. G. Coons: I'd like to clarify this for the minister. I would assume that the governance committee would look after the governance issues that he was referring to, and not the board of directors. [1405] So let's review.

Under this minister, the number of directors on B.C. Ferry Services has increased 100 percent. The stipend for meetings has increased 50 percent. Their salaries have shot up 140 percent — and thousands and thousands of dollars for meetings like the one at the Kingfisher Oceanside Resort and Spa. That meeting at this oceanside resort and spa was four minutes long. The only thing on the agenda was setting the date for the annual general meeting. Can the minister please explain when huge raises and cushy appointments for his friends become more important than affordable fares? Hon. K.

Falcon: Well, I think the member has to think about this for a second. I mean, does the member really believe that they went to the Kingfisher and had a four-minute meeting? Even in the member's bizarre world, does that actually make any sense to the mem- ber? Of course that's not the case, Member. Their meetings generally take the better part of a day. The fact of the matter is that there are two issues they deal with — those regarding the Ferry Authority and those regarding the actual board itself and over- sight of the ferry corporation.

I know that's difficult for the member to understand, but that's just the way it is. What is really important here is to recognize some- thing, and that is that, sadly, we had a ferry corpora- tion we inherited where the average age of the vessels was 42 years old. There had been so much political mismanagement that the ferry corporation was essen- tially bankrupt when we took it over in 2001. Today they've got a $2.5 billion capital program underway. All the vessels are being replaced. All of the terminals have been extensively upgraded.

We've got labour peace, and we've got a ferry corporation that the public can finally have reliable service with in the province of British Columbia. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. M. Karagianis: The meeting started at 10:31 p.m.; it ended at 10:35 p.m. — four minutes. Admittedly, it's at night, so maybe that's worth more for a meeting. But four minutes and $1,500 — that's $375 a minute for this meeting. They meet for fo ur minutes, they approve their own wages, and they get 1,500 bucks. Let's hope that the TransLink board doesn't hear about this one, or they're going to be wanting to jack up their rates.

My question is to the mini ster. Does the Minister of Transportation really think his friends are worth $375 a minute while B.C. ferry users are being slammed over and over again with higher ferry fares? Hon. K. Falcon: I'll try and explain this to the member once again. She's not getting it, apparently. The mem- ber, again, thinks that… Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Member. Hon. K. Falcon: …the board members met for five minutes, and that was all they did. That's incorrect, actually. The member should n't mislead the House or the public of B.C. by suggesting that.

The fact of the matter is that these board members that serve on the authority board — listen, Member, you might learn something — also serve on the ferry corporation board. There are two boards — okay? They have a meeting of the authority board that may take o n l y f o u r o r f i v e m i n u t e s , b e c a u s e i t d e a l s w i t h g o v - ernance issues. If they don't have issues of governance to deal with, the meeting ends. They then move on to the other meeting business, which is the ferry corporation itself, which often takes most of the better part of the day. Interjections. Mr.

Speaker: Minister, just take your seat for a second. Members. Continue, Minister. Hon. K. Falcon: They do not receive a per diem for serving on each board. They get a per diem for the same work they do on both boards. For the member to try and suggest that there's $1,500 for five minutes of work is simply factually wrong. I'm saying it to her in this House as clearly as I can possibly explain. Mr. Speaker: Through the Chair, please. Hon. K. Falcon: Having said that, Mr.

Speaker, I am on record and the gove rnment is on record as saying that the recent increases that were passed and approved by an independent report, I thought, were

TUESDAY, MAY 20, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 12601 too generous, and I felt that the board should review them. I'm still of the same opinion. [1410] Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. M. Karagianis: Let's presume just for a moment that we accept the minister's explanation that at 10:35 p.m., after their four-minute meeting, the board went on to have another extended meeting. So let's just pre- sume we accept that. Interjection. M. Karagianis: Maybe until midnight — who knows. It will be interesting to see what the cost was for that. Hon.

Speaker, this past February the board met for 20 minutes by phone — not even in person, didn't go anywhere, met by phone. For that, they got $750 each for their phone meeting. Again, let's hope that TransLink doesn't hear about this, or we're going to see those costs go sky-high for them, because they don't get $750 every time they make a phone call. My question to the minister is: does he think that this is an appropriate expenditure of money — this gross waste of meeting money — when taxpayers in this prov- ince are paying that and ferry users are being slammed every single day with higher fares?

Does he think that this is an appropriate expenditure of taxpayers' dollars? Hon. K. Falcon: Well, a little bit of a history lesson to the NDP, and I know they don't like history lessons. But there was a reason why there were recommendations, including from a former Auditor General and others, that suggested we make the B.C. Ferries board inde- pendent of government.

The reason they wanted it independent of government is because, under the NDP, for ten years they interfered with the corporation to such an extent that the corporation was effectively bankrupted with over a billion dollars' worth of debt and an average fleet age of 42 years old. It was a disaster.

What has been done is to set up an independent structure, independent of government — not hand- picked by government; independent of government — with names that are put forward by communities and by labour to form a board that acts in the best interests not of government, not of the NDP, but of the 20 million trips a year and the passengers that use that system. In terms of the amounts that they pay themselves, I've been on the record as saying that I thought the increase they put through was inappropriate. I thought it was wrong.

I thought they should review it, but we do not and will not be interfering with the day-to-day oversight of B.C. Ferries. FUNDING FOR POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION R. Fleming: When confronted with cancelled courses and programs and faculty layoffs across B.C., the Minister of Advanced Education has taken a hands- off approach — a "hear no evil, see no evil" approach. Total denial. When the opposition an d the media exposed the potential loss of the deaf studies program at Vancouver Community College last week, the minister smelled political embarrassment.

But instead of reversing his decision on funding, he's now making up policy as he goes on what cuts are acceptable. Here's the problem. With no new funding, saving programs for disabled learners means more cuts to other trades and academic programs. Will the minister just return the funding that he guaranteed up until two months ago and ensure that thousands of student spaces and programs aren't cut next year? Hon. M. Coell: I think the member knows that my budget increased by $68 million this year and that actually thousands of new sp aces will be created this year.

I felt that programs that affect people with dis- abilities should be continued in the colleges in the province, and I hope the member agrees with me. Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. R. Fleming: It's not the cuts to his budget; it's the cuts that students in British Columbia are going to feel next year because he failed to defend it. He failed to defend it in cabinet and Tr easury Board. What upsets college and university leaders most about this $50 million cut from the B.C. Liberals is the timing — two weeks before the beginning of the new fiscal year. Stable and secure funding — out the window.

It's now late May. Institutions across B.C. are facing deficits. Boards are cutting programs. At Vancouver community colleges there may be a thousand fewer student spaces this Septembe r. This minister hasn't even sent letters of expectation yet to institutions like the College of New Caledonia, but apparently they're supposed to follow his contradictory direction through the press. [1415] Again to the minister: when will you put back the money you guaranteed to our institutions so programs are protected and young people's opportunities aren't sacrificed? Hon. M.

Coell: Every institution in this province got an increase in their budget this year, for a total increase of $68 million. But over the last seven years, every year they've had an in crease in their budget, and my budget has been increased by 40 percent for post- secondary education. Only the NDP think that a $68 million increase is a cut. B. Simpson: The College of New Caledonia has yet to get its letter of expectation from this minister. Yet the minister had the time to send an e-mail to CBC in Prince George, outlining his expectations for that col- lege.

In that e-mail he stated that the college will not be allowed to cut the programs for adults with disabilities, that they will not be given additional resources to

12602 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MAY 20, 2008 restore it and that they still have to operate within a balanced budget. The only thing the minister did not state in his expectations to CBC was what programs the college will have to cut in order to restore the programs for adults with disabilities. So my question to the minister is this. Since you're so directive — through CBC — to the College of New Caledonia, what programs will they have to cut to restore the programs you're directing them to restore? Hon. M. Coell: College of New Caledonia's budget has gone up by a million dollars this year.

Now, I think it's important that when programs for people with dis- abilities or programs that affect people with disabilities are threatened, we would step in and say no. I hope you agree with me. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. B. Simpson: The minister knows that this side agrees with him on that specific issue. He knows that. In esti- mates debate he was asked that question specifically about these programs, because the issue is that they are very expensive programs to run.

The minister admitted that they are very expensive programs, that they're not cost recovery programs, and that the issue of those pro- grams becoming susceptible to the budget shortfalls because of this minister's mismanagement of that file is that they cannot cost-recover these programs. The minister can fix it. He can fix it today. All he has to do is commit to one thing. Will the minister fully fund the programs for adults with disabilities so the colleges will restore those programs year after year? Will you fully fund them? Hon. M.

Coell: As I said, the college's budget goes up by a million dollars this year. That's part of the $68 million increase. That's part of the 40 percent increase over the lifetime of our government. The college will be able to fund those programs, and they'll have to make decisions about other programs in the weeks ahead. AVAILABILITY OF BEDS AT VERNON JUBILEE HOSPITAL A. Dix: Hallway medicine has become a daily reality across British Columbia under this government's poli- cies. My question is to the Minister of Health. Nowhere is this the case more than in Vernon.

From January 1 of this year, the first four months of this year, there were 41 code purples called at that hospital — 41 calls to rapidly discharge patients because the overcrowding of the ER was at a dangerous point. The minister knows that they need more acute care beds in Vernon, and he seems determined not to pro- vide them. When is he going to do something about the emergency room and acute care bed crisis in Vernon? [1420] Hon. G. Abbott: What has become a daily occur- rence is an opposition desperate for headlines, so des- perate that they call their own code oranges now.

That's quite an amazing thing — to call their own code o r a n g e . I n f a c t , w h a t w e s a w w h e n w e l o o k e d i n t o i t was that it was actually co de red-in-the-face. That's what the NDP were calling. As far as…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. G. Abbott: I don't know why I seem to trigger bad behaviour on the part of the opposition. I don't understand that, frankly.

Vernon Jubilee Hospital is going to be the recipient of close to $100 million in capital investment in the years ahead for a new ambulatory tower, for additional acute care beds, for improvements to the emergency department — all of that investment long overdue. The opposition promises. Our government delivers. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. A. Dix: Here's what the minister delivered. Fifteen code purples were called in a three-week period from March 27 to April 16 — 15 code purples in 21 days. There's a record to be proud of — 15 calls in 21 days.

How on earth are doctors, nurses and patients expected to have faith in this government when that's going on? Doctors in Vernon have been calling the minister to account for months, and he is ignoring what they have to say. They note that that hospital operates, on aver- age, at 110 percent capacity. When can this community get a response from the Minister of Health or the Minister of Children and Families to the serious acute care bed problem they're suffering and the emergency r oom crisis they're facing every single day? Hon. G.

Abbott: Often when people ask me how things work in this Legislat ure, I explain to them the political division of labour that occurs here. The NDP delivers empty promises. Our government delivers. Just last Friday…. Interjections. Hon. G. Abbott: I don't know why they bring up this kind of behaviour. I really don't. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. G. Abbott: Just last Friday I was at the new Abbotsford regional hospital and cancer centre — as the member noted, a $355 million investment in the eastern Fraser Valley. For ten long years we heard empty promises from the NDP. Our government has delivered.

When it comes to Vernon Jubilee Hospital, they did nothing for ten years. We are going to deliver a new

TUESDAY, MAY 20, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 12603 ambulatory tower, new acute care beds — close to a $100 million investment in Vernon Jubilee Hospital. COWICHAN VALLEY SCHOOLS AND CHILD CARE SPACES J. Horgan: My question is to the Minister of Educa- tion. She will know that on February 1, the Cowichan school district started a process to close four schools. Four months have gone by, and in that time she has received a report from her special adviser speaking to the need for those four schools.

But more importantly, today parents are not just looking for spaces for their children to go to school; they're looking for spaces for child care. With the closure of those four schools, 260 spaces will be lost. It's a very simple question to the Minister of Educa- tion. Will she stand in this place today and assure that those spaces will remain for child care in September? Hon. S. Bond: Well, the member opposite is correct. In fact, this government did respond.

We sent a special adviser to do work in the Cowichan school district, because we in fact expressed concerns, as well, about schools that are important — schools that parents were very concerned about. The member opposite knows that I had met with a number of parent groups about the Cowichan school district. [1425] The report has been received. We will be presenting that report to the board of education. The recommen- dations are significant.

They certainly point to some significant concerns for me as Minister of Education, but that report will be passed on to the board of educa- tion for their review and then made public. J. Horgan: I know the parents in the Cowichan Valley will be waiting anxiously for Monday night with respect to the school spaces, but this is a particular question about child care. It's a crisis in the valley. There are not enough spaces. If these schools go down, 240 child care spaces at a minimum — up to 260 — will be lost.

Can the minister co nfirm that the report that will be issued by the board from the special adviser will include those child care spaces? Hon. S. Bond: I'm sure the member opposite would want, first of all, to allow the board of education to see the report that's been prepared. It will be made public as quickly as possible after that. We had an excellent special adviser that did th e work and looked at the issue of school use. One of the important considera- tions was the capital plan or lack thereof in this par- ticular school district. All of those issues have been considered.

There are a series of recommendations. The board will see the report, and it will be made public. D. Routley: As a former trustee I can tell the minis- ter that there is a capital plan that keeps coming up every year, and that is to close more of our neighbour- hood schools due to funding shortages brought on by that minister. She is imposing growing deficits in our community. We are seeing real people, real families, real children losing their child care spaces, real workers who can't take jobs because of it, and real businesses who suffer.

Schools in our district are at capacity if you consider school-age children and child care spaces. The minister said she'll find spaces for those displaced students, but there's no such help for the parents who will lose their child care space. This minister should stop spewing out numbers and face the real truth. Families are suffering by her policies. Will she finally coordinate her efforts with the Minister of State for Childcare and ensure that those spaces remain open for the people of the Cowichan Valley and their children? Hon. S.

Bond: We recognize the concerns that par- ents in the Cowichan school district have expressed. The member opposite knows full well that a very, very capable special adviser was placed to do an incredibly good job of looking at all of the issues, which includes the necessity for child care spaces. But one thing we are going to do on this side of the House is talk about numbers. We're going to talk about the fact that the Cowichan school district received a funding increase of $3.7 million since 2001-2002 at a time when they have lost almost 1,400 students.

We've put record levels of funding into public education, and we're going to continue to do that on this side of the House. CHILD CARE SPACES IN B.C. C. Trevena: The minister talks about numbers, but I think we are talking about real people here. We're talk- ing about an operating room nurse who will lose child care. We're talking about people who are invested in the community. We're talking about a mom who wants to go back to school, who won't be able to go back to school because of the loss of child care spaces. This isn't just an issue of the Cowichan Valley; it is an issue of the whole provin ce.

Everywhere people are scrambling. In the Minister of State for Childcare's own riding there are 80 people who turned up for an open house trying to find a child care space and basically begging providers for space. My question is for the Minister of State for Child- care. There is a big problem in this province with child care. There is a crisis. Wh en will she recognize that, and when will she actually do something about it — not just talk about new spaces being created but create real spaces for real parents who have real problems getting child care? [1430] Hon. L.

Reid: So $300 million of investment, and I'm happy to say that I've just canvassed these issues with the critic not so long ago, so she knows of what she speaks in terms of attempting not, frankly, to be straightforward with the public in the province of Brit- ish Columbia. She knows…

12604 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MAY 20, 2008 Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. L. Reid: …that she hasn't been straightfor- ward, and she knows, quite honestly, that 2,200 spaces have been created and that, frankly, our goal was 2,000 spaces. We have exceeded by 200 spaces the number of child care spaces created in British Columbia. Dollars have gone out for subsidy. Dollars have gone out for child care operating funding. Dollars have been put in place for recruitment and retention of staff. Everything that the sector has asked for has been deliv- ered, and indeed, that…. Interjections. Mr.

Speaker: Members. Minister, partway through your statement you used the word "straightforward," referring to the member from the other side. Would you withdraw that state- ment, please. Hon. L. Reid: If I offended, I withdraw. [End of question period.] Orders of the Day Hon.

M. de Jong: In this chamber I call committee stage debate on Bill 14, the Transportation Investment (Port Mann Twinning) Amendment Act, 2008, and in Committee A, Committee of Supply — for the informa- tion of members, continued debates on the Ministry of Health. [1435] Committee of the Whole House TRANSPORTATION INVESTMENT (PORT MANN TWINNING) AMENDMENT ACT, 2008 The House in Committee of the Whole (Section

B) on Bill 14; S. Hammell in the chair. The committee met at 2:36 p.m. On

section 1. M. Karagianis: I do have some questions here with regard to

section 1. The explanatory note here says that this

section amends the

definitions of "agent," "conces- sionaire," "concession agreement," "due date," "excessive toll debt," "toll debt" and "vehicle," and adds

definitions of "corporation" and "payment mechanism." We are familiar in this House with the role of Crown corporations that preserve and manage re- sources for British Columbia taxpayers, but I would ask why it is required that we now have incorporated a specific definition here that talks about the corporation as being pertinent and meaning the Transportation Investment Corporation. Can the minister explain why we are creating this new Crown corporation in this bill, which has been titled Transportation Investment — and then, in brack- ets, "Port Mann Twinning" — Amendment Act?

Cer- tainly, the primary explanatory note here makes no reference to the Port Mann Twinning whatsoever, but can the minister explain to me what the rationale is for creating this new Crown corporation? Hon. K. Falcon: As I indicated during my first and second reading discussion of this bill, the reason we set it up is very much aligned with why tolling authorities were set up under W.A.C. Bennett in the '50s and why they are a standard feature across North America.

That is, what you want to do whenever you have any kind of toll authority or tolling revenue is you want to have, for transparency purposes, the ability to show sepa- rately all the revenues, expenses and debt associated with that particular tolling authority.

The manner in which we believe that that can be appropriately carried out for the benefit of the public is by setting up a Crown corporation, a specific special purpose entity whose only pu rpose is to actually do exactly that — to collect the revenues, report out on the revenues, expenses, the author ity, and to enter into a concession agreement with the private sector partner that will be responsible for building, delivering and maintaining the actual infrastructure. M. Karagianis: Why could these duties, as the min- ister has outlined, not be carried out by ministry staff? Hon. K.

Falcon: Primarily because then all the revenues, expenses, etc., would all be rolled up into the overall government accounts. That means that there would be no separate accounts for the public or any interested members of the media or whoever to look at, and there would be no separate auditing process, etc.

It is the position of this government, for the pur- poses of clarity and transp arency, that a special pur- pose entity, which is this new Transportation Invest- ment Corporation, be created so that all of those issues can be shown separately, and all of them can be inde- pendently audited for the benefit of the public. [1440] M. Karagianis: I think that there's a bit of a discon- nect here. The minister has talked about this Crown corporation as being set up specifically to manage the tolling revenues and to manage the concession agree- ments, and we'll get into that a little bit further in the bill here.

Now the minister is saying that this corpora- tion is being created so that the tolls would not go directly into government. My understanding is that tolls in this case will go to the concessionaire. Why do we need a Crown corpo- ration to manage tolls if, in fact, they're going to the concessionaire?

TUESDAY, MAY 20, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 12605 Hon. K. Falcon: Under GAAP principles, the toll revenue will be recorded as revenue to the Crown cor- poration, and then it will be paid to the concessionaire. So the idea is that by doing it this way, there is very clear transparency in terms of what the revenue streams are to the Crown co rporation, which are then subsequently paid to the concessionaire.

But it pro- vides that clarity and that transparency that we think are important in moving forward with a major toll pro- ject like this in the province of British Columbia — similar, of course, to exactly how they were done in the past under previous governments. M. Karagianis: Are there no bodies within the Min- istry of Transportation that could handle this, that would be responsible for taking the tolls and paying them to the concessionaire? Is that not already in exis- tence elsewhere in the ministry? Hon. K. Falcon: If we wanted, I imagine we could run it through the B.C.

Transpor tation Financing Authority. But of course, that would then mix in and roll up all these dollars with all of the highway systems expendi- tures that are going on in the province, and that doesn't lend itself very well to the whole principle of transpar- ency that we're talking about.

We think that for the purposes of that transparency it is important that there be a special purpose corporation that's put into place that will show all of the revenues that are coming in as a result of the toll revenues and then show the payouts to the concessionaire openly, plainly, not mingled or commingled with other dollars or pro- jects, so that it will be very easily identified by anyone in the public or the Legislature. M. Karagianis: Will this new corporation, then, be responsible for all tolls within the province of British Columbia? Hon. K.

Falcon: It is a special purpose entity, which is the term we used. It theoretically could be used for new toll projects. That would certainly be within the realm of possibility. But for the purposes of Bill 14, the primary purpose, of course, is for the Port Mann Bridge project. [1445] B. Ralston: I'm having some di fficulty in follow- ing the minister's argument. In Bill 14, in the amend- ment in

part 4.1, "Transpo rtation Investment Corpora- tion,"

section 24.2, which sets out the purposes of the corporation…. This is the entity that's being talked about. I'm reading: "The purposes of the corporation are to engage in and conduct businesses related to delivering, managing, operating, tolling or funding transportation projects, including projects described in a concession agreement." So it's clear, and drawing corporate objects is par- ticularly important when setting up a company, al- though I think corporate law has probably evolved in a way that they don't bind the corporation to certain kinds of actions.

But nonetheless, in the legislation that's proposed, the objects of the corporation are far more sweeping than the minister is saying here. So is the minister saying that this is the first of many projects? Because when the minister says "theo- retically," I don't think that accords with what's set out here in the amendment. Hon. K. Falcon: A s I s a i d i n m y p r e v i o u s a n s w e r , Member, that's exactly right. The way in which this has been written is to allow us to, in theory, add new poten- tial toll projects.

If the government of the day should determine that there is a need for a new toll project, then this special purpose entity could be utilized for that new tolling project. B. Ralston: Well, it's more than a question of discre- tion. Does it not bind the government to use this entity in the case of any future toll project? Hon. K. Falcon: No. B. Ralston: Can the minister, then, explain what the purpose of the legislation is in the sense that it appears to confer on the ministry or the minister a discretion to assign projects to this entity or not?

Now, the minister has made a claim of transpar- ency and accountability. Why would that criterion, if it's to be accepted, not apply to any future project? Is the minister saying that there may be projects in the future that the minister wo uld deem not requiring of transparency and accountabi lity, and therefore not to be placed inside this corporation? Hon. K. Falcon: No. Look, Member, all we're trying to do when we put together this bill is make sure that we allow government to keep its options open in the future. What this does is recogn ize that….

The government hasn't entered into tolling projects for well over 20 years. The only other project would be the Coquihalla, which has its own legislation, as the member would be aware. So here we are in the year 2008 talking about a ma- jor toll project.

As we looked at how we would put this toll project into place, one of the things we wanted to do was make sure we do it in a manner that clearly separates and defines the revenues that are going to be generated as a result of the project, the expenses and the debt associated with th e project, in one Crown cor- poration, with all that information clearly available and visible to anyone who's interested. We did not choose to commingle that with existing Crowns in the province, th ough one could argue that may be to our benefit if one is not a strong adherent to transparency.

You could obvi ously think of ways of doing that that would make it difficult. That wasn't the approach we took. We wanted to make sure that all of this information was very clear. [1450] Of course, when you do that and you introduce a bill like this, a special purpose entity that will be dealing with the twinning of the Port Mann Bridge — the Port Mann, of course, being the toll project we're

12606 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MAY 20, 2008 referring to here…. We also structured it and wrote it in such a way as to allow the possibility in the future that should a government of the day decide that they've got a project that is a candidate for being a toll project similar to the twinning of the Port Mann Bridge, they could avail themselves of this piece of legislation that would have the kinds of provisions in it that would allow for those kind of future projects, should they choose. B. Ralston: In the original legislation, the Transporta- tion Investment Act,

part 2, "Public-Private Partnerships for Highways," gives the government the power to enter into agreements. Is the minister saying, then, that in the future the options with these two sets of legisla- tion now, Bill 14 and the original act, both streams…? It would be open to the government to decide that…. Notwithstanding some of the discussion about trans- parency here, it would be po ssible for the government simply to enter into an agreement in the way that it is contemplated in the present legislation in

part 2, "Public-Private Partnerships for Highways." Hon. K. Falcon: The member is correct. Under the current Transportation Investment Act there would be nothing that would limit government from entering into a concession agreemen t with any private sector concern. The only issue, of course, would be that it would not allow for the separate accounting of the revenue, the expenses and th e debt.

We feel, just as most jurisdictions across North America feel, that the reason you set up a tolling auth ority, or in this case a Crown corporation or special purpose entity, is so that you will have all of that information separately held and separately reported and audited. It's the position of this government that that is the most transparent way to mo ve forward on tolling pro- jects, initially of course, with the twinning of the Port Mann Bridge being the first toll project, but with the potential for a future govern ment, should they choose, to add additional tolling projects. B.

Ralston: I wonder if the minister could help me understand the concession agreement. Sometimes when these kinds of agreements are discussed, the government is reluctant or refuses to disclose aspects of the agree- ment because it's viewed as proprietary commercial information. Is the minister saying that whether it's in the present Transportation Investment Act under "Public- Private Partnerships for Highways,"

section 2, or in this amendment under Bill 14, which would put that project into a separate corporation…? [1455] Is he saying that the transparency that he's speak- ing of is that the concession agreement in all its details will be disclosed publicly? Hon. K. Falcon: The member should know — I'm sure the member does — that all concession agree- ments are made public. The concession agreements are made public, of course, in accordance with the law. The law that I speak of, of course, is the Freedom of Infor- mation and Privacy Act, which governs these kinds of things.

So all of the concession agreements will be made public in accordance, of course, with the condi- tions and terms that are laid out in the legislation gov- erning the Freedom of Information and Privacy Act. B. Ralston: Well, I think that's an important qualifi- cation because of the manner in which the minister was speaking. If it is limited by the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act, will the minister agree that the substantive commercial details of the conces- sion agreement will not be made public according to the law as it sits now?

He particularly references the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act. Hon. K. Falcon: Typically, in previous concession agreements…. The Freedom of Information and Protec- tion of Privacy Act allows for extensive public review of virtually all parts of concession agreements, but it does protect those that may have an impact on the commercial interests of th e respective corporations.

So there is an allowance there under the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act to protect that for obvious reasons, but we will be operating in this as we have on every other concession agreement entered into by government. It will all be done in accordance with the law and in accordance with the FOIPPA legislation. B. Ralston: Would the minister agree that the crea- tion of a Crown corporation isn't necessary, then, for that kind of disclosure? Hon. K. Falcon: It really goes back to the issue that I talked about early on.

The reason why we set up and were setting up a toll authority, or a Transportation Investment Corporation, is to ensure that those issues of the revenue expenses and debt are separately reported out on. If they're not, then you have a challenge — cer- tainly, a challenge for the public in trying to figure out what revenues are being generated as a result of the toll, what expenses are associated with that, what debt levels are, etc.

It is the position of this government — and I think rightly, based on the experience across North America — that a separate authority is the best way to move forward in that regard with respect to those issues of accountability and transparency. B. Ralston: The minister says that in order to have a disclosure of the finances of the entity, it's necessary to put the tolling revenue into a corporation. How does the privacy — if I can put it that way, in quotation marks — afforded to commercial interests conflict with that goal?

It seems to me that if there is a substantial privacy inter- est related to the commercial interests of the corporation, the kind of disclosure that one will get will be minimal. [1500] Let's suppose, for example, that the government has contemplated engaging not merely this project as a

TUESDAY, MAY 20, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 12607 toll project but other projects as toll projects or, as is happening in the United States, creating sections of highway as toll highways. Surely the financial arrangements between the gov- ernment and the concessionaire would be commercial information. So the future negotiations with those pro- spective concessionaires might be compromised if that knowledge became known — or not. I suppose one could have a different view on that.

Is the minister saying that this particular entity will disclose its finances transp arently and not hide behind the commercial interest provision of the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act? Hon. K. Falcon: The Crown corporation will be bound by the legislation, as all Crowns are. The legisla- tion, the Freedom of Informat ion and Privacy Act, will provide, of course, as a Crown corporation does…. As I said earlier, all of the revenues, all of the expenses and all of the debt associated with the Transportation Investment Corporation will be made public.

It will have audited financial statemen ts that will be there for the benefit of the public. As I say, when we talked about the Freedom of Information and Privacy Act, it typically takes a very narrow view of information that cannot be made public, as the member would know. Typically, that is commer- cially sensitive information that could impair a company's ability to do business in the future. B.

Ralston: Given that the concession would be held by the Crown corporation, would it be open to the corporation — in the very broad powers that it's given later in the amendments — to sell the rights to the con- cession to someone else? [1505] Hon. K. Falcon: Just reminding the member that we're dealing here with

definitions. But for the purpose of the member's question, the short answer is no. The Crown corporation could not sell the rights to someone else. They would have to enter into a new concession agreement, which would have to of course be approved by cabinet. So the short answer is no. Again, the member is probably getting pretty far into the bill, and I think we're still trying to deal with the issue here of

definitions. B. Ralston: Well, the very essence of the bill and what

section 1 purports to do is create a corporation. So in

section 24.23, it sets out very broad powers under the

section "Capacity and powers," including "(

a) acquire, construct, hold or improve transportation infrastructure or cause it to be acquired, constructed, held or im- proved; (

b) acquire, hold or dispose of land… (

c) with the approval of the Minister of Finance, borrow money… enter into other agreements…." So is the minister saying that there is a restriction placed on the powers of the corporation that would forbid it from selling the rights to a concession? And if so, could he direct me to the

section in the amendments that restricts that power? Hon. K. Falcon: The member quotes

section 24.23, and the member will know that in the first sentence it says "subject to this act." Now, if the member flips to

section 2 of the bill, he will see that under 1.1 it says: "The minister may, with the approval of the Lieutenant Governor in Council, enter into one or more agreements with the corporation or any other person under which the minister agrees, on behalf of the government, to the terms on which the corporation may enter into one or more agreements under which…." So it refers to the act, and the act is specific that it requires that cabinet approval I referred to earlier. M.

Karagianis: So the minister is saying here that the purpose in creating this Crown corporation is ostensibly around creating a separate reporting process. But I don't understand what in the present act pre- cludes that same process fr om being used. What is it about the present act that needs to be amended in order to create this new reporting process? [1510] Hon. K. Falcon: I guess to respond again to…. I answered this question earlier, to the other member. We could, under the existing Transportation Investment Act, enter into any agreemen t with any concessionaire to operate any kind of toll situation.

The reason why we are not doing it in that manner is that all of the revenues and expenses would be commingled with government accounts, and it would make it pretty much impossible for anyone in the public to try and ascertain which revenues are actually generated from the toll revenues. The point of setting up a special purpose corpora- tion like this is so that we will have, as is done across North America and as was done by previous govern- ments, particularly W.A.C. Bennett, who undertook most of the major infrastructure construction in this province through toll authorities….

The advantage of them is fairly straightforward. It just provides a very clear picture of what all the revenues, expenses and debt are associated with that particular toll project. That's why we're choosing to do it. It makes sense doing it this way. The bill is written and structured in such a way as to allow future toll projects, should that be something a future government decides, to have the op- tion of utilizing the existing structure under this bill to also look at projects to be utilized through this legislation. M.

Karagianis: The minister has said that this clearly is a government choice to create this Crown corporation. But with regard to the reporting-out process, I canvassed the minister with regard to other privatized concession agreements that are going on in the province right now. The minister was quite capable of reporting out all aspects of that, including moneys that had been contributed to the projects by the private partner. Can he please explain why this process is in any way different? Hon. K. Falcon: Primarily because the previous concession agreements we've entered into have not had

12608 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MAY 20, 2008 a specific toll attached to them. So we have arranged those prior concession agreements, if I could refer to them as that, as performance payments that are made, based on issues of safety and lane availability, etc., — issues that we've canvassed fairly extensively in estimates. In this case, we have toll revenue. One of the things I've been very clear about from the very beginning is that that toll revenue is to go towards paying for the cost of the infrastructure.

When that infrastructure is completed, then there is an opportunity for the future government to now publicly have to acknowledge that the asset has been paid off and that it is time to remove the toll. Should the government not decide to do that, then it will have to do that very publicly, because it will be very clear as part of the Crown corporation accounts, which are separately audited, exactly what the revenues, expenses and debt are that are associated with the project.

I t i s a v e h i c l e f o r m a k i n g s u r e t h a t w e h a v e t h a t kind of transparency and that we do not commingle it with existing government finances. M. Karagianis: S o t h e g o v e r n m e n t i s c h o o s i n g t o create this body, this Crown corporation, specifically because of the tolls. But the minister has said that the tolls are going directly to government and then being channelled back to the concessionaire. In what way is that different from performance payments? [1515] Hon. K.

Falcon: Just to correct the member there, the tolls go directly to the Crown corporation, and the Crown corporation in turn pays them directly to the concessionaire. That is, agai n, for the purpose of trans- parency. I would think that the member opposite would understand the import ance of having a very transparent situation when a government is going to enter into a toll situation. That's why governments in the past in British Columbia and why today across North America you will see toll authorities like this being set up….

They're being set up not because people love governments and love setting up authorities. It's because you provide a very clear, very separate, very transparent set of accounts that govern the revenue, the expenses and the debt associated with the particular project. They ar e independently financially audited so that every year those audited financial state- ments are made available for the benefit of the public. I c a n ' t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t p a r t o f t h a t w o u l d o f f e n d the members opposite. It strikes me that this is common practice across North America, and it makes sense.

It's transparent. If the member is suggesting to me that we should in fact commingle this with existing government finances and therefore hide the revenues, expenses and debt, and make it difficult for the public to find, then the member should say so. Then I would have clarity about the point the member is trying to make. M. Karagianis: I'm not entirely sure why the minis- ter is not prepared to answer questions on this or why he feels that these questions in some way are indicating an opinion one way or the other on this.

I'm simply trying to establish why the government is creating a Crown corporation and what its purposes are. I hear from the minister that the Crown corporation is being created as a tolling authority, not as a construc- tion body per se. Is that correct? Is that what the minister said — that this Crown corporation is a tolling authority entity that's being created? Hon. K. Falcon: What it does, Member, is provide the Crown corporation the ability to oversee the con- cession agreement.

The conc ession agreement is the agreement entered into with a successful bidding group that will be responsible for building certain infrastruc- ture, maintaining that infrastructure and tolling to pay in part for that infrastructure. So the Crown corporation is responsible for overseeing that concession agreement. The Crown corporation, as part of its responsibilities, will also receive and report out on all the revenues, expenses and debt associated with the project. M.

Karagianis: So the Crown corporation is being created for two purposes: one, to oversee private concession agreements; and the other, to be a tolling authority. Is that correct? Hon. K. Falcon: Basically, Member, I'm trying to think of way s of ex pl ain ing thi s so t hat i t can b e ea si ly u nd er- stood by the public that's viewing it. Essentially, you have a concession agreement with a successful winning bidder from the bid groups that are competing for the project.

Under the concession agreement, they're going to have obligations to build certain infrastructure, which obvi- ously would include a new bridge, some interchange improvements, some highway improvements, etc. [1520] They will also have the ability to toll, which sets this apart from other conc ession agreements we've entered into as government, because there will be toll revenue associated with this particular project.

As a result of that, it is the view of government that the best model for providing transparency in reporting out on the revenues and the expenses and the debt that will be associated with the work that will be undertaken as part of that concession agreement…. This structure allows for very transparent reporting of that information. It not only allows for it to be reported independently but also allows for it to be audited annually and for those audited financial statements to be made available to members of the public. I don't know how much more clear I can be on that point. B.

Ralston: Well, the minister speaks of it being a very transparent process. Will a member of the public, viewing the financial information that will be reported under this scheme, be able to calculate the return on investment of the concessionaire? Hon. K. Falcon: After the selection of a concession- aire that results from the bidding process, there is a

TUESDAY, MAY 20, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 12609 value-for-money report that is typically issued. The value-for-money reports will weigh out the projected rates of return that the concessionaires expect to earn on the project itself. The me mber will also know that as part of the annual financial statements, it will show the revenues and expenses associated with the conces- sionaire for the work that's being done and the costs involved in that. It will show the debt-servicing costs, depreciation costs, etc. M.

Karagianis: In fact, what the minister has just outlined is the very same process that works for all concession agreements. Again, it sort of begs the question of why the government is choosing this particular route. [1525] The minister has talked about the reporting-out being the very standard procedure for concessionaire agreements. He and I have canvassed this extensively in estimates. Clearly, we can see that this is a process that the minister is choosing to set up but is not a necessity in any way, shape or form.

I know that we'll talk later in the bill about some of the details here, but if this is ostensibly to set up as a tolling authority to collect the tolls, it would appear here that the government doesn't set the tolls. So how is the reporting process going to be conducted if the government doesn't actually set them? That's set by the concessionaire, so I don't understand how the conces- s i o n a i r e w o u l d g i v e o v e r i ts authority for the tolls to this Crown corporation. Hon. K. Falcon: The member would be incorrect in suggesting that the tolls are set by the concessionaire.

The tolls are actually set ou t in the concession agree- ment, and the tolls in the concession agreement are approved by cabinet, which is government. So that's simply not the case. Look, I think that the member should be forthright with the fact, because we've canvassed this kind of stuff extensively in estimates, that the NDP are opposed to any form of private-public partnership. They've stated that on the record many, many times, and I've always been puzzled by that.

We've seen in British Columbia over 24 projects representing $8 billion-plus in capital that have been delivered by a private-public partner- ship model, and all of them have been characterized by two things. They've been built on or ahead of

schedule or on or under budget. I have to say to this House that I am perplexed by the fact that, after seeing a string of successes like that, there would not be at least some acknowledgment by the NDP that this may be a slightly better way to un- dertake major complex capital projects than their own preferred method, which resulted in projects going wildly over budget and crea ting enormous burdens for the taxpayers of the province of British Columbia. Here we are again.

I have been unable to persuade the members opposite of the fact that this has been a particularly effective way of delivering large complex projects. It's not the only way, and it's not ideally suited for every single major project, but it certainly has been one where we have experience d some really significant successes.

I can point to projects right across the province that the member knows about, whether it's Kicking Horse Canyon, Sea to Sky Highway or the Canada line project — all of them public-private partnerships, all of them being delivered very effectively on or ahead of sched- ule and on or under budget. The bill that we have here and the establishment of this corporation is being put into place because this is a unique private-public partnership only to the extent that it will have specific toll revenues associated with it.

Because it will have those specific toll revenues associated with it, it is the view of this government, in following the practice of many other jurisdictions not only across North America but around the world, to set up an authority. The authority in this case will be a Crown corporation, which will specifically be set up for the purposes of overseeing the concession agreement. The government establishes what the toll rate is as part of the concession agr eement, and the concession agreement is then overseen by the Crown corporation and the Crown corporation board.

It provides the addi- tional benefit, which we think is very important, of making sure that all the revenues, expenses and debt associated with this specific project are independently being disclosed in a very transparent way and are independently financially audited. I think that's a win for the public. I think that makes sense for the corporation.

I think I've explained why this is a different private-public partnership arrange- ment than the others we've entered into, because of the fact that it's got a toll mechanism associated with it as opposed to the others that don't have specific direct tolls associated with them. That is why the government is moving forward and setti ng up the Transportation Investment Corporation. B.

Ralston: Would the minister agree that this mechanism that was set up could also be applied to future concession agreem ents which would involve existing infrastructure? [1530] For example, if a decision was made to toll an existing bridge, this mechanism of the Transportation Investment Corporation would be suited for that purpose. [K. Whittred in the chair.] Hon. K. Falcon: The member's question was: could this act that we are currently debating apply to a toll on an existing bridge? The short answer is — again, in theory — yes, it could.

But the member would know that our tolling policy is very specific about the fact that there is not to be a toll on existing infrastructure unless there is significant investment being made in that infrastructure to pro- vide a very quantifiable benefit for the travelling public and the toll revenues are going to be used to pay off the costs of those infrastructure investments that will pro- vide that benefit. That position has not changed.

12610 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MAY 20, 2008 B. Ralston: The minister will be aware, I'm sure, from advice he receives that in many American states the practice is to take ex isting toll highways and, through a sale, give them over to private interests and receive, obviously, an immediate infusion of cash for the sale — giving to the concessionaire the right to take the tolls over an extended period of time. I spoke to that at second reading.

I'm gl ad to hear the minister is confirming that this legislation gives that possibility to the government, and if there were to be policy changes in the future, this vehicle would be perfectly suited for that purpose. I'll leave the minister to comment on that if he chooses. I have another question, though, about

section 1. When Bill 43 was introduced…. It is a separate bill, obviously, from Bill 14. It , too, proposed amendments to

section 1 of the Transportation Investment Act in the miscellaneous statutes amendment bill, Bill 43. It pro- posed amendments to

section 1 too. Can the minister advise why two bills are before the House, both purporting to amend the same

section of the Transportation Inve stment Act? I'm not sure why. Is it a deliberate choice b y t h e d r a f t e r s ? I s i t t o correct mistakes that were made in the first one? If so, why wasn't the amendment process used that's nor- mally used for amending bills before the House, rather than introducing separate sections in a miscellaneous statutes amendment act? Hon. K. Falcon: On the last point first, it was just a timing issue.

The bottom line was that staff had not completed consultations with some of the groups that would be impacted by the amendments that the mem- ber refers to in the other piece of legislation. It's really not any more complex than that. In terms of the first point the member made, I just want to correct the member because he's quite wrongly, actually, twisting or attempting to twist the words that I said with respect to what this act is eligible to do regarding existing infrastructure. I want to be clear on the record. Now, the member may continue to do that. I don't mind, but I want to be clear on the record.

I've gotten used to the members opposite twisting information around and making it…. Point of Order B. Ralston: I object to that characterization. I ask the minister to withdraw that. It's unparliamentary. The Chair: Would the minister withdraw those remarks, please. Hon. K. Falcon: Certainly, Chair. I would withdraw the remarks. The characterizations were inappropriate. [1535] Debate Continued Hon. K. Falcon: What I do wish to say is that the fact of the matter is….

I want to state for the record and to be very clear for the member opposite that selling existing infrastructure to private corporations would be totally inconsistent with the policy of this govern- ment. For the member to suggest otherwise…. I will put him on notice that that would be completely inconsis- tent, wrong, false and not true. I don't think I can be clearer than that, but I've stat ed it for the record so that the member now knows that if he was putting forward that information, it would be entirely inconsistent with everything that I've said in this House. B.

Ralston: Well, I thank the minister for that con- cession. I won't say gracious concession, but for that concession. I agree that it conforms with the present policy of the government. I do have further questions then, in the sense that the explanation offered is that these amendments in Bill 43,

section 127, and in Bill 14 — both to

section 1 of the Trans- portation Investment Act — amend very basic

definitions. The amendment that's proposed in Bill 43 in

section 1 adds a definition of a classified vehicle and an inspector. I'm at a loss to understand how the minister can say that there were some mysterious consultations required in order to include these very basic

definitions in the act. Can't the minister simply concede that this bill was constructed in haste, that it contained errors and that the amendments to the amen dments are simply to cor- rect those errors? Hon. K. Falcon: The member would be incorrect in suggesting that. The reason why those amendments that refer to the enforcement of tolls are in Bill 43 is that the discussions that were ta king place were with the FOI commissioner and also discussions with industry at large with respect to the issue of enforcement of toll payments on out-of-provinc e vehicles.

Those discus- sions were not concluded, and that's why they found their way into Bill 43, which, as the member will know — and I'm happy to have those — will be debated, of course, separately in this House.

Section 1 approved. On

section 2. M. Karagianis:

Section 2 amends the

section to provide for the agreements re lating to the Transporta- tion Investment Corporation. We've established that the investment corporation is being created. It is the choice of government to create it to oversee concession agreements and to act as a tolling authority, with the understanding that it could engage in other activities. Clearly, in

section 2 it talks about the minister's responsibility over this. I'm particularly interested in the subsections of this: "The minister may, with the approval of the Lieuten- ant Governor in Council, enter into one or more…" So I infer by the plurality he re of agreements, not one, that this extends beyond the Port Mann project by talk- ing about:

TUESDAY, MAY 20, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 12611 "…agreements with the corporation or any other person under which the minister agrees, on behalf of the gov- ernment, to the terms on which the corporation may enter into one or more agreements under which the corporation agrees to transfer or grant to the person des- ignated in the agreement as the concessionaire one or more of the following: (

i) interests in, or rights or obligations relating to, land that is, or is to be, part of a concession highway; (ii) interests in or rights to buildings, bridges, walls, tunnels, culverts, wires, pipes…." [1540] Now, I will make note that this is the first and only reference to the word "bridge" anywhere in this bill. I do know it's ostensibly considered to be the Port Mann twinning, but this is in fact the only reference whatso- ever to a bridge, and it's plural — bridges. It would seem to me that in

section 2 of this, the Crown corporation…. Its activities are to engage in agreements on multiple bridges and highway concession projects. Can the minister explain, especially given the an- swers he's given previously, that this Crown corporation is a choice being created for a specific project? In fact, the language here talks about multiples. Can the minister explain that? Hon. K.

Falcon: Quite simply, Member, the bill is written, as I mentioned earlier in response to the member for Surrey-Whalley, in such a way that we don't close the door to allowing this legislation to be utilized for a future government that may have additional projects that are the same kind of tolling arrangements in which — if that was the case — they could utilize this legislation. The legislation is drafted in such a way that we don't close the door on those future opportunities that a government may come across. To me, that's just good management.

It would make no sense to me to have it written in such a way that you close the door to that and require a future government to have to come in with yet another piece of legislation. The member correctly notes that it refers to bridges in plural. That's because it is written in a way to, as I say, leave that door open so that a future government is not constrained by unnecessary legislative work being required to undertake projects of a similar nature. But of course this project and this legislation are absolutely central to the twinning of the Port Mann Bridge.

We are, as the member knows, in the midst of a competitive bidding process as we speak. A conces- sionaire will be selected prior to the end of this year and a concession agreement entered into.

The corporation will need to be in place to make sure that we have the corporation in place, able to oversee the concession agr eement and, of course, to ensure that they can manage the concession agreement in accordance with the prov isions therein and to make sure that we will then have a reporting structure which, as I said earlier on, will allow for the separate reporting of the revenue expenses and debt associated with the project. M. Karagianis: I am trying to establish here with the minister that this is no t about a single project. In fact, the language of the legislation…. Let's be frank.

That will be here long after we're here to interpret that for the public. The letter of the law here within this bill says that this is about projects plural, and not about a single project. The Crown corporation is being created to engage in multiple agreem ents and projects. Is that not true? Hon. K. Falcon: We have absolutely no plans for any future projects whatsoever. The only project that we'll be applying to this piece of legislation is the Port Mann twin- ning project.

We are writing it and drafting it in such a way — and the legislative drafters are very wise in the work that they do — to ensure that any future govern- ment would have the ability to afford themselves the use of this legislation on any future projects they may have. We don't have any. We just have one, and it's called the Port Mann Bridge. [1545] I know that it causes discomfort for the members op- posite, because they voted against this bill, and I realize that they don't support it, but we are very much in sup- port of the twinning of the Port Mann Bridge.

This legisla- tion will be very fundamental to allowing that project to go forward in a manner that provides the kind of trans- parency that the public would demand and expect. I have given up hope that the members opposite will support the twinning of the Port Mann Bridge, but I know that the vast majority of the public do and are excited to see us proceeding with legislation which will allow us as government to move forward with that project in a way that protects the public interest. That's exactly what this legislation does. M.

Karagianis: You know, our duty here in the Legislature is to approve laws that will sit on the books and be interpreted long after many of us have left here. Looking at the very specific language of this bill — rather than the intention that the minister talks about, which is a project now but ce rtainly could be many in the future — the language within this bill creating a Crown corporation is about a multiple of potential projects in the future. That's what the law says. I appreciate the minister's

interpretation and his political intentions behind this, but the letters and clauses contained within this legal bill that we are creating here say that this Crown corporat ion is being created to en- gage in agreements and multiple projects and certainly — by the minister's very clear responses in the initial questioning about the corporation — tolling. Being a tolling authority is a huge component of this. I'm uncertain as to why the minister does not want to address the actual langua ge contained within this. It does talk about multiple agreements. It does talk about multiple projects.

Whether the government has one project now or a dozen is immaterial. I'm looking at why this Crown corporation is being created. It does talk about multiple projects. Is it not technically true that a Crown corporation is being created that will engage in — plural — projects, agreements? Is that not true?

12612 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MAY 20, 2008 Hon. K. Falcon: Look, Member. I don't know how I can be any more clear about this. We specifically, as I've said on the record, drafted this to allow and not encumbe

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0520pm-09
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0520pm 09
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e53ca01fd236c503fa8b69841e8ced2ac1c134db

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