1981 Legislative Session: 3rd Session, 32nd Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.

The printed version remains the official version.

Official Report of

DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(Hansard)

TUESDAY, APRIL 28, 1981

Morning Sitting

[ Page

5247 ]

CONTENTS

Routine Proceedings

Committee of Supply: Ministry of the Provincial Secretary and Government Services estimates. (Hon. Mr. Wolfe)

On vote 164: minister's office –– 5247

Hon. Mr. Wolfe

Mrs. Dailly

Mr. Cocke

Mr. Barber

Mr. King

Mr. Mussallem

The House met at 10 a.m.

MR. SPEAKER: Just before we go into the business of the day, hon. members, you will perhaps be interested in this reply:

"Nancy and I were deeply touched by your kind expression

of concern. We very much appreciate knowing that you are thinking of us and

that I have your prayers for a speedy recovery. During my convalescence my administration

will continue to advance the policies and goals which both of our countries

share. Please be assured of that. Thank you for letting me know of your feelings."

It is signed by Ronald Reagan — through the consulate-general in Vancouver.

have fully considered the proposal of the hon. member for North Island

(Mr. Gabelmann) made yesterday for an emergency debate under standing

order 35. I point out that in his sixteenth edition May sets out all

the rules with regard to such debate, which have been consistently

applied in this House. Among those rules are included a clear

prohibition against importing debate in stating the matter. And the

matter shall have been raised without delay. May further states at page

370: "The fact that new information has been received regarding a

matter that has been continuing for some time does not in itself make

the matter one of urgency." The statement of the matter offered by the

hon. member clearly imports argument in paragraphs 2 and 3 and also

states that the proposal sought to be debated on an emergency basis is

in a stage 2 category of consideration. This indicates the matter is

not of recent occurrence within the meaning of the rules.

Consequently,

I am bound to give my opinion that the matter does not fall within the

scope of standing order 35 and may not proceed further without the

usual notice.

Orders of the Day

The House in Committee of Supply, Mr. Davidson in the chair.

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF THE

PROVINCIAL SECRETARY AND

GOVERNMENT SERVICES

On vote 164: minister's office, $195,103.

HON. MR. WOLFE: Mr. Chairman, I'm just waiting for the cameras to get organized. Now that we're all set....

In starting off the estimates of the Ministry of the Provincial Secretary,

it might be interesting to remind the members how far back this ministry goes

in terms of the history of British Columbia. It was established after British

Columbia joined Confederation in 1871. The Provincial Secretary assumed the

duties and responsibilities then of the former Colonial Secretary's office.

Although the Provincial Secretary remains basically the secretariat of the government,

its responsibilities go much further today as government meets the challenge

for more and varied services. Whether it's for voting, athletics, recreation,

borrowing a book from your local library, taking

part in the arts, or just buying

a lottery ticket, more and more British Columbians are coming in touch with

the Ministry of the Provincial Secretary and Government Services. The Provincial

Secretary is definitely not a static ministry. It would be impossible for a ministry

this diversified to stand still. So without sounding glib, the Provincial Secretary's

involvement in culture, recreation and leisure, and government services is

a direct reflection of the increased activity and involvement of British Columbians.

I'm

looking forward to progressive programs which are planned in this

ministry this year and next, and would like to take this opportunity to

mention briefly just a few of them. First of all, I'd like to bring to

the attention of all members the recent Heritage Canada award of honour

presented to British Columbia last month for the restoration of our

province's parliament buildings. This prestigious award is the result

of work carried on by both the Social Credit and the New Democratic

governments. It is an award every British Columbian can be proud of,

and I think special appreciation must go to the restoration design team

and the restoration construction team under Mr. Alex Brady for a job

well done. I am sure that if Francis Rattenbury, the architect of the

building, were alive today he would be more than pleased with the

restoration of his marble palace. After almost eight years and $12

million, the restoration program is nearing completion. Together with

Mr. Speaker, I've worked out a program identifying all of the remaining

work including exterior lighting. driveways and the many smaller

projects still to be completed in the building itself.

Provincial Secretary, one of the most enjoyable tasks in my ministry's

involvement is that with the B.C. Games. Since 1977, when these games

began, we have seen six winter and summer games take place, and each

year they grow bigger and better. In fact, the B.C. Games are now the

largest athletic games in all of Canada. surpassing even the Canada

Games. In the last 12 months, more than 172,000 British Columbians from

all parts of oui province between the ages of 13 and 79 have been

involved in the playdowns leading to the games themselves. I would like

to take this opportunity to thank Mr. Ron Butfin. managing director of

the B.C. Games, for his personal enthusiasm as he guides each host

community to final victory.

In each of the communities where

the games are held, more than 2.000 volunteers donate some 260,000

man-hours to help make the games a success. Recently the city of Prince

George staged the Winter Games and a great deal of thanks must go to

the men and women of that outstanding city for making this year's

Winter Games an exciting success. This summer more than 3.000 athletes

will travel to the Comox Valley to participate in the 1981 Summer

Games. The enthusiasm of the volunteers has already shown itself, and I

have no doubt that this year's Summer Games will set new standards of

achievement for each of our province's athletes.

The B.C.

Games have provided British Columbians with exciting new challenges in

athletic competition and community spirit. Each year the number of

towns and cities waiting to host the games increases. The 1982 Summer

and Winter Games are in the preparation stages, and Vernon and Trail,

the two cities selected to host the 1982 games, have shown that the

B.C. Games' spirit is alive and well. The amount of work that goes into

making the games the success they are is phenomenal. Time is of the

essence. In fact. Revelstoke, the host city for the 1983 Winter Games,

is already in the planning stages.

As the minister

responsible for the games, I am very pleased with their growth even

more so, as a British Columbian, I am proud of our athletes, volunteers

and communities

[ Page 5248 ]

throughout B.C. who participate with such energy and excitement. It is something we can all be proud of, Mr. Chairman.

each member of this House knows, British Columbia's greatest resource

is our people. We came from around the world, from every country, and

settled in British Columbia. Although we are all British Columbians,

each of us has our own special cultural heritage. Recognizing this

diversity in our people, the government has appointed a cultural

heritage adviser, not just to be another level of bureaucracy, and

certainly not just as a new way of saying ethnic or minority group.

Recently I had the pleasure of officially opening the office of the

cultural heritage adviser, Mr. Enrico Diano, which is in Robson Square.

At that time I introduced the members of the cabinet committee who

would be playing an active role, working with the adviser and our

province's many cultural communities.

British Columbia's

unique approach to cultural diversity is aimed primarily at tapping the

originality and initiative of our people. I do not want to see a

province full of stereotypes where we each act, think and look alike. I

would like to see my grandchildren grow up appreciating their own

heritage and respecting the heritage of others. That is the ideal we

all strive for.

Soon we will announce the formation of a

consultative committee of British Columbians to further develop the

program, giving each of us another opportunity to recognize how lucky

we are to live in a province rich in so many varied cultures.

am pleased to announce today that Judge Norman Oreck, regional

coordinator of citizenship judges of western Canada and British

Columbia's senior citizenship judge, has accepted my invitation to

chair the advisory committee on cultural heritage. Together with my

colleagues on the Cabinet Committee on Cultural Heritage, we are in the

process of selecting individuals from the community to sit on this

advisory committee. Judge Oreck is certainly well qualified to chair

the advisory committee, and I'm delighted that he has accepted.

Recently

cabinet announced approval for development of a comprehensive program

within the Public Service Commission to ensure equal opportunities for

career advancement in the public service for women, the disabled and

other specific groups whose promotion opportunities were restricted by

attitudinal barriers. This program will develop into an overall human

resources planning program for the public service in the future and is

an important step aimed at equal treatment of all public service

employees.

Another important project undertaken by the

Public Service Commission, in recognition of the International Year of

Disabled Persons, is to further develop employment services for the

disabled. In 1980, some 176 placements in government jobs were made for

disabled clients. This year, the commission's assisted services

section

has set a goal for placing 300 clients by the end of the 1981-82 fiscal

year. This is one more step ensuring that government, as a major

employer, is setting a standard for equality and fair treatment of

present and future employees.

One of the most exciting programs now underway, one which has federal, provincial

and international impact, is Transpo '86. British Columbia has the unique

opportunity of not only showcasing the beautiful city of Vancouver but making

an international contribution to a new era in transportation. To British Columbians,

Transpo '86 means more than 8,000 man-years of employment. It means more

than 12 million visitors. What is essentially now an industrial slum will become

an area that is open to people, with lasting facilities for British Columbians.

February I announced the appointment of the Transpo '86 board of

directors. The calibre and enthusiasm of these people will do much to

make the exposition an international success story for Vancouver,

British Columbia and Canada, particularly with such people as chairman

Jim Pattison, who will be in charge, and Mr. Patrick Reid, the

commissioner-general, who will also be a member of that board.

Transpo

'86 is an exciting opportunity. It involves hard work and initiative.

We've got the people, the talent and the time and, most of all, we've

got the type of city, province and country with enough energy to take

this unique project from the paper and planning stages and turn it into

an exciting reality by 1986. Transpo will give British Columbia and

Canada an exposition that will not only stir the imagination of the

international community but demonstrate that we do more than dream of

success; we are ready to work for it. Invitations have already gone out

to many countries to participate in this world exposition.

Our

primary arts assistance agency, the cultural services branch, has now

been restructured and expanded to provide even greater consultative and

support services to British Columbia's arts community. As part of this

new program, we have established a $1 million funding program to assist

our province's museums in order that they may continue the essential

functions of collecting and record-keeping for use by future

generations. It is the feeling of our government that museums

throughout British Columbia add to the quality of life in our

communities as protectors and preservers of our provincial heritage.

The new program will move the museum adviser's office to cultural

services, and provide grants for operating assistance based on the size

of the operation, quality and expertise involved and the level of local

and community support. As well, the program will include individual

program grants for such items as conservation, upgrading and archival

functions.

In a recent position paper on regional libraries,

prepared by the directors of Ontario's regional library systems and

presented to the province's Minister of Culture and Recreation, the

directors referred to British Columbia as having "achieved the finest

level of public library service in Canada." In order to maintain that

system, an additional $2 million will be made available to public

libraries in our province. The provincial grant for the purchase of

books will be increased by an average of 45 percent. In addition, my

ministry recognizes the difficulties of providing service to areas of

our province that are sparsely populated and will introduce an

area-related grant of $8 per square mile, to a minimum of $200,000 for

each of our province's consolidated libraries.

A perfect

example of our concern for sparsely populated areas is the

Cariboo-Thompson-Nicola library system, which in the past six years has

received more than $5 million in government support. In addition, I

recently announced a one-time grant of $450,000 to help retire debt and

capitalize some of its operations. Under the new amended formula the

Cariboo-Thompson will be placed on the same provincial funding basis as

other regionally organized libraries. For instance, in the coming year

it will receive provincial grants totalling $723,000, and can expect to

benefit from the same grant increases provided to similar systems in

future years.

[ Page

5249 ]

[Mr. Strachan in the chair.]

In terms of the particular

problems of the Cariboo Thompson-Nicola library system, for the coming

year there will be a total of $1,173,000 provided by way of a one-time

grant and by the ongoing grant system, with a new special grant for

area-related constituencies. I might say, Mr. Chairman, word of our new

library funding programs has received strong support throughout British

Columbia, including letters of congratulations and thanks from the

Library Advisory Council. I'd like to quote from a letter from the

chairman of the Library Advisory Council, Mr. Ray Woods, who writes:

"Just

a note of appreciation for your very valuable work on a long-term

solution for the Cariboo-Thompson-Nicola library system's problems. I'm

sure that many people across the province share my warm feeling about

your interest in and your action on and for the public libraries of

British Columbia."

We also have letters of support in terms

of this particular solution from the British Columbia Library

Association and from the British Columbia Library Trustees Association.

The strength of British Columbia's libraries is in the fact that they

are a local service, locally funded and administered. The library is

part of the community it serves. Through provincial grants to purchase

books, government is supporting the basic cornerstone of the public

library. This year's increase in support is aimed at further assisting

the public library system without removing the local level of control

and involvement which has made library service in B.C. second to none

in Canada.

In conclusion, I would like to mention various

personnel changes which have taken place in my ministry during the

year. First of all, seated with me in the House is Mr. Ian Thomson, my

new Deputy Minister of the Provincial Secretary and Government

Services. We welcome Ian to the Legislature. He is also acting as

Queen's Printer in that capacity, as did the former deputy. At the same

time, I would also like to recognize the retirement of Gerry Cross, who

has been with us for many years and has taken retirement during the

past year. There are three assistant deputy ministers seated behind me:

Allan Turner, Barry Kelsey and Jerry Woytack.

MR. HOWARD: Where's Douglas Heal?

HON. MR. WOLFE: We'll come to that in a moment, Mr. Member.

There

is also Mr. Bill Long, formerly Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs,

who has joined my ministry as chairman of the Public Service

Commission. He has replaced Art Richardson, who served with distinction

in that capacity for 11 years before retiring. Mr. Douglas Heal has

been appointed Deputy Minister (Information Programs). Mr. Thomas

Toynbee, a leading Saltspring Island businessman, succeeds Walter

Bradun of Vancouver as chairman of the board of directors of the B.C.

Buildings Corporation. Peter Dolezal has become president of the B.C.

Buildings Corporation after serving as vice-president.

mentioned earlier that Transpo '86 is well on the way with the recent

appointment of career diplomat Mr. Patrick Reid as commissioner-general

and Mr. Jim Pattison as chairman of the board. Also I should mention

that our new director of library services is Mr. Peter Martin, whom we

certainly welcome to that office.

I think that concludes the preliminary remarks having to do with my ministry.

I look forward to questions.

MRS. DAILLY:

Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the minister for giving an overview of

his ministry, which was much appreciated, I'm sure, by the people who

are in the gallery who would not be aware of the role of a Provincial

Secretary. At least he ran through some of the areas that come under

his jurisdiction. I was thinking as we all listened to the minister

that people who were not aware of his role and heard him go through it

would think: it sounds like an important ministry, but perhaps somewhat

dull. There are no real "sexy" items in that minister's estimates.

The

most interesting thing is that this happens to be one of the most, if

not the most, important ministries today in this government. I say "in

this government" because for the first time they have taken the

ministry under the Provincial Secretary's jurisdiction and they have

made him the czar of all public information for this province. One of

the most important areas of any government, we know, is the matter of

public information. The interesting thing is that the way this minister

has restructured the whole area of public information under his new

deputy has caused a great deal of concern to the public of British

Columbia, and certainly to the members of the opposition.

Therefore

I'm going to start off today dealing with the ministry's areas that are

handled by the deputy minister for public information. In the opinion

of the opposition, this is the major area under this Provincial

Secretary, because the Social Credit Party has decided to make it a

major area in his ministry. I'd like to remind the Social Credit

government that if they compare it with the years of the NDP and, may I

say, the former Social Credit government, they will find that we have a

responsibility to inform the public, but we did not understand that one

day we would have a government in British Columbia that would have so

little political morality and ethics that they would accumulate the sum

of $25 million of taxpayers' money — what for? — not to inform the

public but to put over the Social Credit Party line. That basically is

the issue.

We will deal with all the other areas under this

ministry in due time, but it is our feeling that this area must be

dissected here on the floor of this House because the people of British

Columbia who are paying for these so-called information services want

some answers. I'm going to ask one question of the minister, and then I

will sit down: will the minister stand up and give to the House a job

description of his deputy minister, Mr. Heal?

I have always

felt that estimates should not be a time for long-winded speeches on

either side. I'm trying to deal with the estimates in the way they

should be dealt with as far as I'm concerned. I'm here to elicit

answers from that minister. My first question to him is: will he please

give a job description for Mr. Heal'?

I do not intend to go

through a whole variety of subjects here to diffuse the main issue of

this morning as far as we're concerned, and that's the position of Mr.

Heal in this government. Therefore before sitting down again I ask:

what is your job description for Mr. Heal?

MR. CHAIRMAN: We're going to have to do one thing or the other, hon. members: call the question on the vote or....

MRS. DAILLY: Mr. Chairman, he was consulting with his deputies. I think we should give him an opportunity to answer.

[ Page 5250 ]

Are

we to understand that a new deputy minister has just been hired by this

government at a salary of over $62,000 a year? The first question that

I ask the minister in his estimates is to give us a job description,

and he refuses to answer?

HON. MR. WOLFE: I told you I'd answer. Just carry on and give me some more questions,

MRS. DAILLY:

Mr. Chairman, surely some courtesy can be extended to the opposition.

We are simply asking.... If we work this way through estimates, I

really believe that we all will be less bored, and I believe that we

can expedite these estimates.

I would like to just simply

say to the minister that I find it difficult to understand why he will

not answer my question. What is he here for? He is here to answer the

questions of the opposition, for the benefit of the public of B.C. If

he can't answer them, then perhaps we had better ask another minister.

HON. MR. CHABOT:

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, while the minister is researching

that, I was wondering if the member for Burnaby North (Mrs. Dailly)

would give us a brief description of the job description of John Bremer.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, that is not a point of order, and the minister is aware of that. We continue on vote 164.

MRS. DAILLY:

It's pretty pathetic, isn't it, Mr. Chairman, that now they are so weak

over there that they have to turn to me and ask me questions, and I'm

supposed to answer.

Mr. Chairman, I want to repeat again

that to expedite these estimates I intend to go through with very

simple questions. I don't want to make any speeches. I just want to

elicit some information, so I want to ask the minister again: what is

the job description for Mr. Heal?

HON. MR. WOLFE: I

must say, Mr. Chairman, that it has been the practice in this House

that a series of questions will be asked, then the minister will

develop answers for these and respond after a series of questions has

been asked. This is a little unusual.

In general terms she

asks what the mandate, the job description and so on are of the new

director of government information, the deputy minister. He replaced

the former director of communications, who was David Brown. There was a

vacancy, which we filled. In general terms, his function is to address

himself to communications, to develop an audit of the nature of

communications — that's the publication and promotion of government

programs which take place — and to do the best he can to coordinate

those between ministries, to develop a better coordination of

government information programs.

There is a consistent

demand for better government information all across this province,

which I have mentioned before in this House, and this is the reason why

Mr. Heal has been brought into this position. It is no different from

the previous one, except to try to put more emphasis on coordination of

government information programs.

MR. COCKE: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I guess to call that pathetic would be as euphemistic as I

could be. "Coordination of government information," the minister says...

HON. MR. WOLFE: What's wrong with that?

MR. COCKE:

...and then the minister goes on to say: "What's wrong with that?" It's

this that's wrong with that. If it were only the coordination of

government information it would be something of use, something that one

could applaud. But instead of that, what do we find? Before Douglas

Heal we found a government that had taken a publication, B.C. Government News ,

and turned it into a propaganda sheet circulated at taxpayers' expense

all over the province, trying to improve the image of the government.

Now that's an incredibly hard job to do, but at the same time that's

precisely what its objectives are, obviously. It's the most one-sided

piece of information that I've ever seen. Then the government found

themselves slipping, in spite of the fact that they have all this

taxpayers' money to deal with and use in a way that most jurisdictions

would be so red-faced about that it Would be suspended and finally

stopped. But not here in B.C. Somehow or another this government feels

that they can get away with doing anything at the taxpayers' expense.

That's precisely what we're saying.

Over the past three or

four years we have seen what was a health promotion service being

transferred very slowly from the Health ministry to the office of the

Provincial Secretary under Douglas Heal to be a further arm of

coordinating government information. So what do we have? We have a

newspaper published at taxpayers' expense and sent to everybody in the

province from time to time. When it's not sent to everybody in the

province, it's sent to a selective list, and that's a fairly

significant list.

Beyond that, we have the government using

all of the skills that Douglas Heal acquired at Lovick agencies and

some of his old pals to promote the government in a one-sided way

through media other than the print media. They now obviously don't

trust the electronic media to get the news out of this capital. Were I

in the media, I would be grossly insulted by the fact that the

government now had their own video recording system and printing press.

It's not enough that one can pick up one of the papers that are

published in this province to find out what's going on in Victoria. Now

we have to get the government's own words. I suggest, Mr. Chairman,

that no jurisdiction in this country but this one would stoop to this

level in order to get their message out. Noting that there are some

ministers with the inability to get their images brushed up nicely,

this coordination of information service has gone beyond that to the

United States — to Hollywood — and hired professionals to come up here

and teach the ministers how to look. how to deliver their speeches with

body language and, generally speaking, try to improve the Gallup

results.

If the Social Credit Party were doing this on their

own, that would be one thing. If they were spending the donations that

they get from their members, supporters, businesses and others, that

would be one thing, because those kinds of moneys are expected to be

spent in promotion of a particular ideology. But when that particular

ideology is promoted with the taxpayers' money, then it's time that the

opposition rose up and let people know just what's happening. I know

that we've made light of the fact that all this is happening. It's a

very serious matter. It's a matter that indicates a complete lack of

conscience on the part of that government and a lack of political

morality that cannot go unnoticed.

I just say that when Douglas Heal first took office we found him out at Harrison, just days after he had taken office,

[ Page 5251 ]

a Social Credit policy convention. It was held in secret; the press

were excluded — the undesirable people. Whether or not he accepted a

nickel in terms of mileage and out-of-pocket expenditures, etc., is of

no significance. The significant thing is that he was hired at

taxpayers' expense to be a deputy minister. So where did we find him?

We found him there. Then we found out very shortly that the government

media had been placed at his disposal. Put those two things together.

Obviously he was working for the Social Credit Party at taxpayers'

expense and then given charge of the government's own media.

Interjection.

MR. COCKE: One of my colleagues said: "Pravda of B.C." Whatever it is, it's not right. Mr. Chairman, it should be stopped.

Before

he is through his estimates, that minister should get up and apologize

to the House for being a party to this kind of behaviour. After we

found out that the video capacity and all the other media services had

been put under this coordinator's charge, we found out that he'd moved

afield to bring in experts, actors, etc., to assist. I think it's

obscene. I believe that it should be stopped. I think that the minister

has been deked into it by the Premier, his friend. He's been a true and

trusted minister, as far as that Premier is concerned — a humble and

obedient servant. The Premier should not get away with this. We know

his image, and we know it's bad, but this is no way to improve it. Do

you know how he could improve it? He could improve it if the Provincial

Secretary would go to the Premier and say: "Instead of going through

all this money and expenditure, why don't you behave like a leader?"

Interjection.

MR. COCKE:

My colleague said "resign." Let's give him a month. He can do more to

polish his own image than to bring in people by the droves to try to

brush up his and some of his colleagues' images. The member for South

Peace River (Hon. Mr. Phillips), the minister of small industry, can

use the help. There's just one suggestion that need be made to him:

"Don't say anything until you're sure that what you're saying is what

you wanted to say in the first place." He doesn t need to spend a lot

of the taxpayers' money on Hollywood pros to put him in the right

direction.

I wonder how far we're going to go. I couldn't believe the misuse of B.C. Government News .

Now the entire media is going to be fed by a government service.

Wouldn't it be better if we were back promoting fitness? Wouldn't it be

better if we were back promoting nutrition? Wouldn't it be better if we

were taking this video capacity into the schools and teaching children

a better lifestyle than hamburgers and lethargy? I suggest that's where

that should be. Failing that, let's say that we're not as highly

concerned — this government certainly indicates very low priority when

it comes to health care — and that there's a capacity beyond that. Why

not assist people in their own personal budgeting? My God, if anything

is necessary today in this inflated economy.... People could use some

advice like that. But no, instead of that, we're getting a glossy and

phony picture of a government in disrepute. It's a misuse of taxpayers'

money. It's a misuse of everything that this government should be

standing for.

How can one condone this kind of activity? I

can't. I'm sure that most government members, if released on this vote,

would be happy to stand up and vote against this ministerial vote

because of this misuse of taxpayers' money. I've heard some statements

from some of those backbenchers over there. They're not very pleased. I

read an account of what the member for Omineca (Mr. Kempf) said about

images after he read the results of the Gallup poll. Let's see him put

his money where his mouth is. This is his ideal opportunity, on the

Provincial Secretary's vote. He can go back to Omineca and hold his

head up high, saying: — I wanted our government to be straight."

MR. KEMPF: I've got no problem with that.

MR. COCKE: He says that he's got no problem with that. We'll hear him get up and defend this vote before this vote is over, I would hope.

Interjections.

MR. COCKE:

What's he talking about? He spends a lot of his time sitting across the

floor and making remarks about the opposition. He very seldom puts

anything on the line, particularly anything in condemnation of the

behaviour of this government. He'll do it when he gets out dealing in

the hallways with individuals from the press, but he'll never do it

standing in his place in this House. He hasn't the courage.

MR. CHAIRMAN:

One moment, hon. member. The second member for Victoria (Mr. Hanson)

and the member for Omineca are interrupting you. I will ask both of

those members to come to order. I remind the hon. member for New

Westminster that we are on vote 164.

MR. COCKE: Yes,

Mr. Chairman. I'm giving some advice on vote 164. I'm giving some

advice for some of those government back-benchers, who have been

critical of this government. What we're saying is that this is a moral

issue — spending taxpayers money to try and deliver votes to the

Socreds. We're asking those people to vote against this vote. Either

that, or get that minister back on the track. We know he's doing it at

the Premier's behest. We know that he wouldn't be doing it on his own.

It's up to those backbenchers to show that they have the morality

themselves to vote against this travesty. If they can t vote against

it, then let them get up and tell us why not. Just tell us, purely and

simply, why not. We wait patiently.

HON. MR. WOLFE: I

want to thank, the member for New Westminster for his questions, but

not for some of his observations, such as referring to this as a

travesty and a disgrace and so on.

First of all, he referred to the impropriety of producing a document called B.C. Government News .

This is another information facility and it is no different than what

the former government used during their term of office. Let's just be

honest about this thing. Here's B.C. Government News

for March 1975 and February 1975. There's all sorts of kudos being

claimed for the government of the day. I think you could go through

those documents headline by headline and stack them up against the

information programs on present government policies being put out by

the B.C. Government News to a wide cross-section of British Columbians. To cite

[ Page 5252 ]

just one instance in the B.C. Government News

of May 1975.... I'm glad the former Minister of Housing is in the

House, because the headline is "Housing Accomplishment Summed up by

Minister." Isn't that terrible? I guess that's a disgrace to the former

government — that he was allowed to explain his accomplishments to this

province. Isn't it a travesty and disgraceful? It really is

unfortunate. I guess we could both be tarred with the same brush. Isn't

it awful.

I'd like to respond to comments the member for New

Westminster (Mr. Cocke) made about the audio-visual centre, which has

been transferred from the Ministry of Health to the Provincial

Secretary to coordinate under one ministry, along with other

information programs, the communications of government in order to

inform the people of this province on programs they want to know about.

There's no change in the direction of the audio-visual centre from what

formerly existed when it was placed under the Ministry of Health.

The

audio-visual centre has been in full production for over a year, first

in the Ministry of Health, now transferred to the Ministry of the

Provincial Secretary. In that period of time it has produced 23 major

audio-visual programs. The most significant of these programs consisted

of 13 one-hour presentations for the Knowledge Network. I heard the

member who just took his seat say: "Why don't you take the audiovisual

program into the schools? We need programs for the schools." Well, what

do you think that is? In addition, the unit has produced numerous

30-second and one-minute spots. Ministries using the unit's production

services have included Health, Transportation and Highways, Municipal

Affairs, Human Resources, Provincial Secretary and Government Services,

Lands, Parks and Housing, Consumer and Corporate Affairs and so on.

[Mr. Davidson in the chair.]

The

unit consists of four permanent staff: director, audio technician,

visual technician and three auxiliary staff. There's no change in what

is taking place in the audio-visual unit with this government.

Here

are just a couple of samples of what that unit has put out in the past

year in the way of training, informational films, placing an accent

where it's required these days — on visual information as opposed to

the normal printed media. Here is one for the Ministry of Health: "B.C.

Ambulance Service." Would you want to cease producing those

informational films for the ambulance service? For the Ministry of

Transportation and Highways there was a training film on soil testing;

for the Ministry of Health a half-hour training tape on nutrition in

schools. Would the member want to cancel that by discontinuing the

program of producing training tapes? For training staff members of

Human Resources, there was a half-hour training tape on child abuse and

neglect, and an explanation of those problems. And, Mr. Chairman, a

half hour training tape for disaster planning — is it not a credible

requirement that we use that unit for that purpose? For Lands, Parks

and Housing there was a tape on housing construction, an informational,

educational film having to do with housing construction. Lastly, there

was a half-hour film for Consumer and Corporate Affairs on the

rentalsman — training tapes for rentalsman staff. There were 53 tapes

or films produced for Health, 22 for Human Resources. 21 for Lands,

Parks and Housing, 12 for Consumer and Corporate Affairs, four for

Transportation and Highways, three for Municipal Affairs and one for

the Provincial Secretary.

From the day it opened for

business, the government production centre operated as a government

facility and not as a strictly health-promotion operation. Because of

its previous involvement with a small TV studio, Health was originally

chosen as the operating ministry. Two Ministry of Health employees were

assigned to the new section, and three new positions were allocated by

Treasury Board. The centre was then transferred from Health to

Provincial Secretary and Government Services on April 1. There has been

absolutely no change in production policy since. From its inception the

centre has worked for any ministry that requires its services. The

opposition statements made in this House today and on previous days

have been a complete smokescreen and are very inaccurate.

I'd like to make one more point, Mr. Chairman. In regard to the B.C. Government News ,

which we know has been a document of information used by both the

former government and this government, the title of this document and

contents, I suppose, have not really changed since the year 1953.

MR. BARBER:

The government that brought us Larry Eckardt brings us Douglas Heal.

The government that told us Mr. Eckardt would provide a neutral and

impartial means of redistributing electoral boundaries now brings us

Douglas Heal, who we are told will provide neutral and impartial

information to the general public. Some of us who remember what the

government did with redistribution have some reason to be skeptical

about what Mr. Heal will do with government information.

The

government pretends it has a problem with image and communications. It

denies the obvious truth that its real problem is credibility. Its

deeper problem is competence. If this were a credible government, they

wouldn't need Hollywood fixers to try and shore up their image and put

on a good face. If this were a government that knew what it was doing

and commanded the respect of the people, they wouldn't have to hire

Hollywood fixers to repair their sagging public reputation. The point

is they're an unpopular government because they're an incompetent

government. That most certainly applies to the current minister, who

was responsible, after all, for finance during a very bizarre period in

the economic history of British Columbia.

The government

does not have a communications problem, except that they have

unintentionally communicated all too well their ineptness. How many

times do people need to be reminded of the Marguerite

fiasco, the BCRIC-Kaiser fiasco, the Seaboard fiasco, the Pier B-C

fiasco, and on and on? No matter what Mr. Heal does, he can't cover up

the fact of Spetifore, Wenger and all the other deals. The problem is

not communications or an unrealistic image. The government's problem is

that their image precisely identifies their track record. That track

record is abysmal. We are skeptical that Mr. Heal will perform a

neutral and impartial job, purportedly as a member of the public

service, which is another abuse that we will inquire into shortly. What

he's really doing is trying desperately to get Social Credit

re-elected. His attendance at the Harrison Hot Springs Social Credit

conference was a grievous error. He had no business being there. The

Provincial Secretary, even more so, had no business inviting him there,

if invitation is the word we're supposed to believe. It clearly was a

betrayal of the fundamental commitment in spirit of the Public Service

Act to neutral, impartial and fair administration by public servants of

public policy.

[ Page 5253 ]

Clearly

the obligations under the Public Service Act were abrogated by Mr.

Heal's attendance at that Social Credit meeting and by the minister's

requirement as well that he attend. The Public Service Act should not

have been abused either by Mr. Heal or by the Provincial Secretary.

The

government's problem is not communications; it's credibility. The

government's problem is not image; it's ability. They have neither the

ability nor the credibility with the people of British Columbia that

will allow them to get re-elected next time. So what have they done?

They've gone out and hired Hollywood fixers. Hollywood fixers are no

remedy for the fundamental problems of public administration in this

province. What would a Hollywood fixer like Mr. Heal and his friends

have done to make a movie about the Princess Marguerite ,

for instance? How would they cover up the fact that the government

clearly misstated the case and misrepresented the facts regarding the

seaworthiness of the vessel? What episode of The Titanic ,

Part II, would Mr. Heal have filmed in order to justify that ridiculous and insupportable decision by Social Credit?

Presumably

Mr. Heal and his Hollywood fixers would have found some way to explain

away that particularly stupid decision by Social Credit. How would Mr.

Heal have dealt with the Seaboard fiasco? Would he have done it any

better than the current minister?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Hon.

member, again we must remember that we are on the Provincial

Secretary's estimates. Only those administrative responsibilities of

this particular minister can be discussed. Simply by referring to an

individual who may or may not have been hired, and to relate that to

other instances such as, for example, the Marguerite ,

under which this minister has no responsibility.... If the member can

appreciate the Chair's concern in such an instance, it would be

appreciated.

MR. HOWARD: On a point of order, I want

to draw to your attention, Mr. Chairman, that the minister himself said

— and the blue book of estimates contains the provision — that the

government information service, which is what we're dealing with in

this ministry, "and an audio-visual production centre communications

planning adviser is for use by all ministries." The minister has said

that, and I think we're entitled to ask: how would a certain ministry

use this facility under the authority of this minister? It provides

that wide opportunity, I submit, to examine the potential use or misuse

— misuse probably is the proper word — of this audio-visual centre for

all ministries. It should not be confined — and I submit, cannot be

confined — simply to one narrow vote, because the whole government

spectrum is under the authority of this minister in terms of

communications, propaganda or whatever phrase one wants to use.

MR. CHAIRMAN:

The member for Skeena raises a good point; nonetheless, I would ask

members to at least use some discretion in following through on that

particular aspect. Otherwise, hon. members, we really run into the

problem of virtually debating every ministry in one specific ministry,

and that is something that, as members can appreciate, would really

defeat the purpose of committee, particularly as it relates to the

present minister's estimates. I would ask all members to bear that in

mind. The point of the member is well taken.

MR. BARBER:

Mr. Chairman. I'm trying — and I very much agree with the comments of

the member for Skeena, and I'm glad you do too — to deal with the

responsibilities of one of the clearly most important deputy ministers

whom Social Credit has appointed, who happens to be directly

responsible to the minister whose estimates we're now debating. What

I'm inquiring into is whether or not Mr. Heal would consider it his

responsibility to deal with a few public issues — and I'm not inquiring

into the merits of each of them but merely alluding to them one by one.

think it's important that this committee know what Mr. Heal considers

his duties to be and what the minister considers those same duties to

be also. I was inquiring whether or not it would have been one of Mr.

Heal's duties, for instance, briefly, to put a better face on the

government's mishandling of the Seaboard Insurance fiasco. Would that

be one of the films he would make? Would he show us the minister

telling the public of British Columbia at 10 o'clock in the morning

that there was no need for the Legislature to be called back into

session, as we had said at 9:30 o'clock in the morning there was; and

then turning around at 4 o'clock in the afternoon and admitting that we

were right all along and that the House had to be called back in? Would

Mr. Heal, for instance, find another way...?

HON. MR. WOLFE: Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back.

MR. BARBER:

Well, we were right, and you were wrong — surprise. surprise! We were

right — New Democrats frequently are; not always, but frequently — and

we were right then.

Similarly I wonder what Mr. Heal can do,

for instance, Mr. Chairman, with the current issue of the strange trip

by the Minister of Tourism (Hon. Mrs. Jordan) to Manila for a

conference that had ended ten days before she arrived, for a conference

that even had she attended might not have been very useful to the

people of B.C. Nonetheless, I wonder what Mr. Heal can do — together

with his band of Hollywood fixers — to put a better face on that

particular Socred mistake. We're still waiting for the Minister of

Tourism to show up for question period. She's missed, I think, four in

a row now. She shows up for the votes, but she doesn't show up for

question period. Maybe Mr. Heal could help us find out.

We wonder what kind of a face Mr. Heal could put on the ridiculous overruns at Pier B-C. How will he explain that away?

MR. CHAIRMAN:

Hon. member, order, please. While I can appreciate the way the member

is relating this, I think that in reflection the member must agree

himself that it is increasingly difficult for the Chair, which tries

very hard to make sure that the rules that bind us in committee are

followed, to accept the continuing argument of presupposing what Mr.

Heal, for example, would have done in circumstance a, b, c, d and then

going on ad infinitum through virtually every minister or ministry of

the Crown. It makes it very difficult, and I'm sure the member must

realize this. Unless he is wishing the Chair to intervene — and I'm

sure he is not — I would ask the member to be just a little bit more

specific in relating his points to the Ministry of the Provincial

Secretary. Simply using the individual and relating that to each

ministry is, I think, passing the bounds set for us in committee. I'm

sure the member realizes that, and I would ask him to continue bearing

that in mind.

[ Page 5254 ]

MR. BARBER: I do, and I will. I have, in fact, reached the end of my

list of five Socred mistakes, which were the Princess Marguerite , Seaboard,

BCRIC — oh, I didn't mention BCRIC, but now I've done it, you know

the point; it's trading at $4.90 again this morning — the strange trip to Manila,

and Pier B-C. That's the end of the list, but it's not the end of the

argument, which is this. This government has no business hiring

Hollywood fixers to attempt to twist and distort the true record of

Social Credit in order to get re-elected. Yet we can find no evidence

to date other than that's precisely what Mr. Heal's job is. Within days

of arriving, he went to a secret Socred policy conference — obviously

to get his marching orders. We understand what his priorities are, and

he obviously does too. He acted on them. Within days of being

appointed, he went to a secret Socred policy convention at Harrison Hot

Springs. And, sure enough, within days after that he was hiring

Hollywood fixers to repair the government's flopped image in British

Columbia. Variety has a word

for the image of this government. They call such governments turkeys.

It's a turkey that can't fly and won't fly, a turkey that no one will

go to see except to laugh at, which is, unfortunately for Social

Credit, what will happen at the next election.

In his

pathetic and lame defence, the minister trotted out examples of

perfectly useful films that the audio-visual centre made before the

arrival of Mr. Heal. Well, that begs the question, because we're not

criticizing the audio-visual centre before the arrival of Mr. Heal. We

precisely do not have a criticism of that. What we're worried about is

what's going to happen now that he's arrived and taken it under his

political wing. The minister tells us that we should support the

audiovisual centre because they provide films on soil-testing, child

abuse and disaster planning, among other things. Well, that's fine. We

don't object to that at all. We have no criticism of that whatsoever.

And we never made such criticism of these pre-Heal efforts.

The point is, we now know — and it's clearly a matter of public record

— that Mr. Heal and his Hollywood fixers are also instructed to shore up the

personal image of cabinet ministers. This is an abuse of public funds. In my

opinion, this is a subversion of the Public Service Act, and a wrongful thing

for a public servant to do. He has no business giving advice to cabinet ministers

on how to repair their political image and how to make Grace's hair unfrizzy

and how to make Mr. Phillips stop going off the deep end — to quote someone

who apparently works in the Premier's office, for heaven's sake,

and who was quoted in the Vancouver Province . He has no business doing that.

Cabinet ministers have no business appearing in that way in government films.

Mr.

Heal was not at hand when Mr. Vander Zalm, the now Minister of

Municipal Affairs and former Minister of Human Resources.... I use

names just because there have been several ministers; that's the

easiest way to do it; it saves time.

MR. CHAIRMAN:

Order, please. Hon. member, notwithstanding that it does in fact save

time, it is most improper to refer to members in the House by their

names. We must use their ridings or ministries. That's such a basic

rule that I'm sure the member will have no problem following it.

MR. BARBER: I understand, Mr. Chairman. The musical chairs played by

the Premier makes it difficult sometimes. I think there have been four Ministers

of Environment in the last five and a half years. Is that not correct?

MR. HOWARD: They don't have anybody now.

MR. BARBER:

It's difficult sometimes to keep up with all tile changes in Social

Credit. Nonetheless, referring to the first member for Surrey (Hon. Mr.

Vander Zalm), he was the star of a film made in Vancouver, not

Hollywood. regarding the Planning Act. I also hold that that too was an

abuse of public funds. If it's the government's intent to spend public

funds to make people learn something or other about soil testing or

child abuse or disaster planning, that's fair enough and that's good

enough, and we don't object. But in that instance it was clearly a

precursor of Mr. Heal's role. There was the first member for Surrey

introducing the film, smiling from some highrise tower in Vancouver

overlooking Burrard Inlet. There he was quoting himself during the

course of the film, and there he was wrapping up the film at the end

too. Clearly this is an attempt to promote the first member for Surrey

into some other office. I don't know if it's the office he deserves,

but it's clearly the ambition he has. It was a wrongful thing to spend

tax money on that.

I don't know if the audio-visual centre

was involved. Since December I have had a question on the order paper

to try and find out, but for some reason tile first member for Surrey

refuses to answer. At least, he has not answered to date. We're trying

to find out whether or not that was produced by the audio-visual

centre, and, if so, whether or not this was another abuse of public

funds in order to promote the personal ambitions of the now Minister of

Municipal Affairs.

If all the government wishes to do is to

spend money on training films, that's fine. Let the films be produced

by the public servants responsible for the programs. That's fine too.

But when this government debases and subverts the tradition of

neutrality and the tradition of being non-political on the part of

public servants, as they have done with Mr. Heal, and when they further

turn around and announce that cabinet ministers will be starring in the

latest episode of "Little House in the Okanagan" or whatever they are

cooking up to save themselves with, then we object profoundly. Why on

earth is the Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources (Hon.

Mr. McClelland) going to appear personally in some document to be aired

shortly, in time for the Kamloops by-election? If government

information has got to be put across, let it be put across by people of

whom it cannot be said personal political advantage is at stake. Why

should tile Minister of Energy be making that film, for heaven's sake?

What business is it of his to do that? He's a partisan politician. He

has no business using the people's money for those purposes.

The Provincial Secretary says: "You guys had B.C. Government News ."

That's true, we did. It was propaganda for us, I suppose; it's

certainly propaganda for them, and I guess there's not much difference.

There is some difference, I think, in the power, influence and

incredible authority in the public mind of television. Television has a

rare and special connotation in the minds of many people. It has a

particular kind of weight, gravity and influence that probably no other

medium currently has. In part there is a difference in scale. At some

point that difference in scale becomes so great as to be a fundamental

difference in argument.

We hold that when you stand up and

de-frizz the hair of the Deputy Premier (Hon. Mrs. McCarthy), when you

teach the Minister of Industry and Small Business Development (Hon. Mr.

Phillips) not to shout and go off the deep end, when you find some way

to make the Premier look better

[ Page 5255 ]

visually

on TV, you are trespassing, you are fundamentally violating the only

rationale that government has for spending any public funds on public

programs. That rationale is to get out public information in an

honourable, truthful and politically neutral way.

When

Social Credit wants to run propaganda films, let Social Credit pay for

them. When the NDP wants to run propaganda films, we can pay for them

too. That's fair enough, and that's how it should be. But look at the

difference in ethical standards between the two administrations. We

never hired Hollywood fixers to repair our image, and, lord knows, that

image was bad enough with the people in 1975 that we got kicked out of

office. Mind you, we got the same percentage of the popular vote that

we did in 1972, but that's a separate matter.

Lord knows, I

suppose if ever there was a political justification, our guys might

have felt it, but they also felt a particular obligation to the public

trust and its management. They didn't run around hiring Hollywood

fixers like Mr. Heal and his California friends to fix up the image of

cabinet ministers. They were left to tend for themselves. Some of them

got defeated in 1975, and that's how it should be. The local voters

made that choice, and Hollywood fixers weren't purchased to try to

distort or artificially improve the real image of cabinet ministers in

our administration. W.A.C. never did that either, and they certainly

had television, film and Hollywood fixers available for him in those

days. But his standards were high enough that he wouldn't hire someone

of that sort to come in and do work of this sort.

There's a

special case to be made for public information provided by a government

responsible to the public interest. That special case includes, to the

maximum extent, neutrality on the part of the persons who prepare it

and the persons who appear in it. Mr. Heal and his little group of

Hollywood fixers have no business making films that promote the

Minister of Energy personally, or that might have promoted the Minister

of Municipal Affairs personally, or that most certainly and inevitably

will promote the Deputy Premier personally. She has always abused the

public purse to promote her own image. Look what she did with Tourism,

for proof of that.

We believe that Mr. Heal's appointment

was wrong and unjustifiable and should be rescinded forthwith. We

believe that the audio-visual centre is an important aspect of

government information and should be run by a wholly non-partisan

public servant, not a political appointee of social Credit, which is

all that Mr. Heal is. He did not pass any competition administered by

the Public Service Commission. He did not meet any of the ordinary

requirements of the Public Service Act. He is a Social Credit appointee

committed to do a job for Social Credit. That's all there is to it.

There's nothing fancy about it.

Even Dave Brown didn't ask

to be appointed a deputy minister in order to provide his political

services. That's fair enough too. At least no pretence was made there

that he was an independent and neutral public servant. Good for Dave

Brown! He was honest about his real role. It was political from

beginning to end. Mr. Heal's role is also political from beginning to

end. What's the very first meeting he attended after he got appointed?

A secret Social Credit policy meeting at Harrison Hot Springs. What's

the next public thing he did? He ran around hiring Hollywood fixers to

repair the image of Social Credit.

We believe Mr. Heal's

appointment should be rescinded forthwith. We believe that control of

the audio-visual centre should be returned to a neutral and impartial

public servant forthwith. and we believe that the people of British

Columbia share our opinion on this matter. No matter how much money you

spend trying to repair your ridiculous image in British Columbia, the

fact remains that nothing will repair that image until you start

governing in the interests of all of the people and not just the

millionaires. Until you start producing programs that serve the

interests of all of the people and not, just the re-election ambitions

of Social Credit, it doesn't matter what Mr. Heal does. Until you pass

that test, you'll fail all of the others.

HON. MR. WOLFE: I've listened carefully to the comments of the first member for Victoria.

MR. LAUK: Do you understand them?

HON. MR. WOLFE:

Not altogether. No, I find I have quite a lot of difficulty in

understanding his comments. He said one thing quite appropriately. He

said that "with television today and the accent on the visual media,

communications is different." I agree with him. That is the whole

accent of what the appointment of Mr. Heal has been and why we've been

discussing the audio-visual centre.

The opposition have

raised a vision of doctoring up the ministers' appearances, and all of

this sort of stuff. It's amazing — I never cease to be amazed — in

politics how fiction sort of becomes fact Out there in the halfway with

the media. A newspaper story develops, and suddenly you've got a fact

running around. As I said earlier, there's been no change in the policy

of that production centre, which has been usefully functioning for over

a year now.

The member — quite correctly — addressed himself

to the fact that the big concentration today is on the visual media. We

all agree with that. We kid around about having to make politicians

took better and so on, but this thing has addressed a lot more than

politicians. We kid around about Gracie's hair and the Premier's beard,

and so on, and I would like to ask the member.... I've seen him on

television. I would ask him to say that he's never put any make-up on.

Has he never had to cut his hair? Oh, his beautiful hair. Has he never

had to shave his board? I would, just ask him to stand up and tell the

House.

Interjection.

HON. MR. WOLFE: The

member has stated that he did. In fact, put make-up on for television.

Did he receive advice on putting make-up on for television from someone

— some expert, perhaps from California, or something like that? It

could be. Well. anyway, the member has admitted that it's no big deal.

He's put make-up on, and I would dare say that any member in that party

across the way has also considered his appearance before appearing on

film or having his picture taken or anything else. What a ridiculous

argument!

MR. LAUK: Are you wilfully dumb, or are you putting on

an act?

MR. CHAIRMAN:

Hon. members, prior to recognizing the first member for Victoria, I

would ask that interjections be limited somewhat. It's very difficult

even to hear the member who is speaking at times, and I would ask all

members to afford all other members that courtesy.

[ Page 5256 ]

MR. BARBER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll talk even more quietly.

Yes,

I do remember having make-up applied once when I did a "Capital

Comment." I couldn't get the damn stuff off afterwards, so I refused to

put it on the second time, and that's my experience with it. I

wouldn't, however, expect the taxpayers to pay for that one-time

make-up; that would be an abuse of public funds. Who pays for the

Premier's make-up, for heaven's sake? I think the taxpayers do, but

that's a small illustration of a larger problem.

You propose

to make a partisan use of a non-partisan resource, and you have no

business doing so. The non-partisan resource is the tax dollars of the

people of British Columbia and the audio-visual centre that they

support. The audio-visual centre for non-partisan and non-political

purposes is a good thing. We endorse it. When the member for New

Westminster (Mr. Cocke), the then Minister of Health, established it

within the Ministry of Health, it also performed a good function. Did

you ever see our Minister of Health flogging his own ambitions and

career and re-election bid in a Ministry of Health film? Of course not.

We never did that, and we wouldn't, because that's an abuse of public

trust. It's malfeasance, for heaven's sake. You have no business doing

it either. You propose — if I may repeat — to make a partisan use of

what should be a non-partisan service. Your reply to me, asking whether

or not I put make-up on when I go on television, is not, with respect,

the most intelligent reply you could make to our criticism. Perhaps you

could try again.

MR. KING: I don't know a great deal

about this whole matter of the Hollywood tinsel show, other than what

has leaked out in various reports. I would just like to give you the

details as I read them from the newspaper and then ask the minister

some questions. He indicated that perhaps there was some distortion in

terms of the reporting on the role that Mr. Dougie "Glitter" Heal plays

in the ministry and also with respect to the role of the very talented

young — I don't know whether they're currently Canadians or former

Canadians — filmmakers who have graduated to Hollywood and have now

been retained at $14,000 of the taxpayers' money for a purpose that is

still unclear to me. I'm not sure, but perhaps they're around here in

the gallery today. Perhaps the minister could indicate whether or not

the Sedawies are present today. If indeed they have been retained for

the purpose of attempting to improve the image of some of those cabinet

ministers, thee young, talented film makers probably face the most

formidable test they've ever undertaken in their lives. They're

attempting something that is very difficult to achieve.

The Vancouver Province

of April 23 had this report in it. I'd like the minister to listen very

carefully and perhaps to indicate to the opposition precisely what

aspects of this report are incorrect — what is distortion, which he

intimated had been carried in some of the media. It's entitled "Socreds

Go Hollywood to Fix Image," by Dave Todd.

"Hurray for Hollywood. Goodbye to amateur theatre.

"Those appear to be the watchwords at the B.C. government's

new information services bureau, where director Douglas Heal has hired a husband-and-wife

team of Los Angeles movie specialists to polish up the Bennett cabinet's

tarnished image.

"The dynamic duo are Norman and Gayle Sedawie, old friends

of Heal, who have been retained on a $14,000 'preliminary' contract

to assess technical deficiencies at the government's main film production

centre in downtown Victoria.

"Norman

Sedawie, who currently works out of Los Angeles, has earned plaudits

for television and film work in the U.S. and Canada. Before leaving

Vancouver for California, he was a movie reviewer for the Province . Two years ago he won an Emmy for a CBC TV adaptation of the Charles Dickens classic A Christmas Carol , which starred comedian Rich Little."

wonder if the government now is thinking of another Emmy award with

perhaps a different actor cast in the role. Perhaps we're going to have

the presentation of another Dickens play, with the Minister of Finance

(Hon. Mr. Curtis) cast as Scrooge or something like that. Is that what

the Provincial Secretary has in mind?

"'Aside from making the government film centre a more

polished unit (Heal said Wednesday it's now run 'like a short-order

restaurant') the Sedawies, sources say, will be asked to improve cabinet

ministers' TV presentation.

"'As one source said: 'Their job is to make sure

that Human Resources Minister Grace McCarthy doesn't show up on camera with

frizzy hair.'"

That's

$14,000 of your money to make sure that the Minister of Human Resources

hasn't got frizzy hair. My goodness, wait till Ronald Reagan hears

about this down in the States. I understand he's concerned about some

films in that country too. This is waste, in trying to bolster up the

sagging and tarnished image of a bunch of politicians who should be

paying attention to serving their constituents and doing their job

efficiently, rather than attempting to form artificial images through

the use of Hollywood tinsel.

We don't want to see the

Minister of Human Resources with frizzy hair. I'm sure the people of

the province don't want to see her with frizzy hair. I think the

minister has been around long enough. She's not a young debutante. I

think that she can well afford, within her own private facilities, to

brush up her image so that she might be acceptable to this chamber and

to the people of the province.

Then it says: "We don't want

the Premier to shown on camera unless he is well-shaved, and that Don

Phillips" — the Minister of Industry and Small Business Development"

doesn't go off the deep-end and talk too much when he's answering

questions." I want to ask the Provincial Secretary how he justifies Mr.

Heal's delving into these areas, not to mention the $14,000 preliminary

retainer to hire some eminent movie-makers to deal with these kinds of

personal problems ministers in the Social Credit government are faced

with at the taxpayers' expense. Doesn't the Provincial Secretary

consider this an abuse of his office and an abuse and waste of the

taxpayers' money?

The

article goes on — it's classic; I

can't believe it, and I know you want to hear it. In an interview from

Los Angeles on Wednesday, Sedawie said he and his wife have looked at

video tapes of virtually all the people who speak for the B.C.

government. He's checked them all out. "We've evaluated them and made

our comments," Sedawie added. Their criticisms concentrate on posture

and body language. I wonder what kind of body language he has in mind.

I wonder if he expects the Minister of Human Resources to start doing

some little burnps and grinds or something in terms of making her

[ Page 5257 ]

presentation

to the people of the province of B.C. or, indeed, to this chamber. What

does he have in mind for the Minister of Tourism (Hon. Mrs. Jordan)?

What kind of body language can we expect from the Minister of Tourism?

I'm interested. I wonder if that's why she went to Manila — to get in

on some of this latest exotic body language that's going to be refined

by these movie-makers from Los Angeles at the taxpayers' expense. It's

incredible, Mr. Chairman, just unbelievable. It goes on, unfortunately.

The ordeal is not over yet. Posture and body language.

"The

political dimension of the public relations campaign undertaken by Heal

was also subject to a recent memorandum he distributed to cabinet

ministers. The memo, sent about three weeks ago, informed them that

Heal planned to create a core group of government media advisers under

direction of the Provincial Secretary's department who would be charged

with improving ministerial images."

After all, what can we do with poor Peter over there. He's stuck with what he's got.

"The hiring of the Sedawies is not the only step Heal has taken to slicken the government image."

They're going to slicken the image over there at public expense.

"The B.C. government has just signed a contract

with the Association of Canadian Television and Radio Artists, ACTRA,

to employ professional actors in government films."

[Mr. Strachan in the chair.)

We're

going to get clones of the cabinet in the province of British Columbia.

We'll never know whether it's the real thing or not. Is this real

policy or is it a clone? Is it an actor filling in? I wonder where

they're going to find an actor who's going to be an acceptable replica

of the member for Columbia River (Hon. Mr. Chabot). Unless, perhaps,

they think of calling on Peter Lorre, and I'm not sure Peter's around

anymore. Oh, how sweet it is, Mr. Chairman, when you have the poor old

taxpayers' money to fritter away. You can be as ridiculous as you wish.

You can be as wasteful and negligent as you wish and it's considered a

joke. It is funny, but it's also tragic. It goes on:

"These

actors are to be used in some cases for what is being called taped

vignettes involving public servants and politicians. Maurice Chazottes,

the government film department's production manager, said:

'Professional actors have been used by the B.C. government in the past

only on rare occasions.'"

The implication being that we can expect them more frequently in the future.

"However,

now that its emphasis is no longer on staff-training films and the

ACTRA agreement has been signed, use of them is likely to be more

common."

The Sedawies, who would be working out of the same

Victoria hotel in which Premier Bennett lives, have a contract for an

unspecified period. Now isn't that accommodating and very fortunate. If

the Premier is cleanly shaved every morning, I suppose it's completely

convenient and appropriate that the Sedawies can toddle down the hall

in Harbour Towers and make sure that the Premier's Schick has been

sharpened properly before he comes to the House. They're lodged in the

same hotel. I wonder who's paying for that hotel for them, aside from

the $14,000 preliminary contract that they enjoy. Are the taxpayers of

British Columbia paying for the hotel room adjacent to the Premier's so

that they can keep an eye on his image and make sure he shaves cleanly

in the morning? I think we have a right to know and to expect the

minister to answer these questions.

It goes on, Mr.

Chairman: "We are now asking ministries to have a plan on paper and to

outline their purpose for whatever it is they want to achieve," Heal

said. "In other words, we are looking at what we can best do with the

facilities we have, and we want to use the best available talent to do

it." Obviously the Sedawies have evaluated the cabinet and have found

them wanting. They've said that we have to look elsewhere, to

professional actors, to fill in where the ministers themselves are

deficient and unacceptable.

This poses an interesting

question, you know: who really speaks for the government of the

province of British Columbia? Can the people be secure in the knowledge

that in future, when some policy statement comes via the electronic

media, allegedly by the Minister of Health, that it is indeed the

Minister of Health rather than Jack Webb at the other end posing as the

minister? I don't know how many look-a-likes there are in the

professional industry for this gang over here, Mr. Chairman; but it

poses an interesting question as to whether or not we are viewing the

real thing or a bunch of clones when it comes to members of the

executive council.

I've been asked whether or not the

Minister of Environment (Hon. Mr. Rogers) is really the first member

for Vancouver South or whether he's Elliott Gould. Perhaps that's the

most charitable look-alike in the whole cabinet. It's funny in a way;

it's tragic in another way.

I don't buy that any government

has the right to abuse the taxpayers' money in this fashion. What makes

it so particularly insensitive this year is the fact that this

government has heaped heavy taxation loads on the province of British

Columbia. They've heaped additional taxation measures on the people

this year. which has fed the fires of inflation and increased the

burden on the average working person in this province. As the report on

poverty revealed a short time ago, there are 200,000 people in the

province of British Columbia living below the poverty line. After

heaping ever-increasing taxation burdens on them, we see the government

frittering away money in this way in a vain attempt to try and do

something with their sagging and declining credibility.

Mr.

Chairman, I want to tell them that aside from being abusive of the

interests of the people who they allegedly represent and aside from

being wasteful and morally incorrect. It's particularly insensitive at

this time of the year in view of the heavy burdens of inflation, high

interest rates and absurd shelter costs in the province of British

Columbia that the people are confronted with. Here we have this gang

who apparently are not doing a good enough job. That's the reason for

their declining image. Now they're trying to restore and recapture some

public confidence by wasting in a rather despicable way the money of

the taxpayers of British Columbia. I say it's shameful, Mr. Chairman.

MR. MUSSALLEM:

We have here a speech delivered by an able spokesman endeavouring

through innuendo and jest to deliver a prospect of deep wrongdoing by

the government, using the age-old method of suggesting that things have

happened. For example, a certain Mr. Heal arrived in the darkness of

night at a secret meeting at Harrison Hot Springs, to attend the caucus

of the Social Credit Party or some other

[ Page 5258 ]

nefarious

act. They didn't say those words, but that's the inference.

Furthermore, the exaggeration continues, that we do not want to see the

Deputy Premier arrive before a camera with her hair not properly

frizzied up — to use his own expression. These exaggerations build in

the imagination of whoever will listen the impression that there is

deep wrongdoing by the government and by that ministry, which, of

course, is totally incorrect.

I would like to suggest to

you, Mr. Chairman, what really goes on. The human intelligence and the

human mind is the only masterful issue in all creation that does not

have a governor, a governing body to establish its power and what it

may do. The hon. member for Shuswap-Revelstoke (Mr. King) is a driver

of locomotives. He knows that if that locomotive's engine did not have

a governor, it would run amok. We know that every electric motor,

wherever it is, has to have a governor. We know all these mechanical

things have to be controlled. The animals in nature have a built-in

control, but we the human element have no control. We build on ideas,

and we want to exceed — one exceeds the other.

We have an excellent example of that which just recently happened. I take it from the Vancouver Sun ,

page 5, it story entitled: "Ethics? Newspaper Ethics? Pulitzer and his

Breed Would Be Astounded." It goes on to talk about this lady, Janet

Cooke, who built, stone on stone and brick on brick...created something

that could have happened out of her own imagination. This paper remarks

— very fittingly so, I think:

"To begin with, the Janet Cooke affair would have been just as

serious a violation of journalistic ethics no matter what newspaper it happened

on. But since the paper was the Washington Post , still basking in the afterglow

of fame for the Watergate exposures, it has attracted a response out of'

proportion to the seriousness of the case."

Certainly it has.

What I'm pointing out

here is that the press.... I know the press in this parliament; I do

not know one who is without honour or respect. They are all good

people; if they weren't, they wouldn't be here. But, Mr. Chairman, what

I say to you now is that when they write these stories, they have to

exceed one another with a new idea and a new line, like the

exaggeration the member for Shuswap-Revelstoke has created there. If

any of the stories get picked up and built on a little bit, it becomes

a total exaggeration. The Heal affair, if I may call it that.... I've

never talked to the minister about it; I've never talked to anyone

about it. All I know is what I've read. It is an exaggeration of the

facts. I think the government must have a controlling influence

somewhere on the information of what really happened, and let the press

pick it up from there. It must not be picked up from the political

sides of this House — from the government side or the opposition side —

because there are exaggerations. There is no need to question that this

House is of high emotion; there are exaggerations all the time — daily.

If the press picks it up exactly as it is, it only gets built on a

little more and a little further extended until we find ourselves in a

state of exaggeration, and that's exactly what we have here today.

This

lady, Janet Cooke, who became famous for what she did with the story

that won the Pulitzer Prize — the very prestigious prize in journalism

— is now ignominious for what she did. And here we are criticizing one

another for something that requires no criticism. The Heal story is a

proper story. Here is a former Canadian and his wife, who perhaps made

good down in the United States. There are thousands of them. You can go

to any corporation you want to in the United States, and many of them

are led by Canadians. Everywhere you go, you'll find Canadians in the

United States. When these people come back to Canada, they must not be

labelled foreigners: they are Canadians, our people. I decry the

opposition's attitude in trying to say that we went down there and got

this American. We did no such thing. If this man is qualified and able

to do the job that we wish him to do, I think the government is

justified in hiring this man, and I support him.

I'd like to

add quite a bit more, but the hon. member for Shuswap-Revelstoke sits

there trembling about what I may say. I know he's trembling. I do say

that this man's duty, as I see it, is not to create the news but to

establish the absolute fact of what is happening so that the opposition

may see it and the government may see it. Government members such as

myself do not always know what's happening, and I'm sure not every

member of the opposition knows what's going on — this thing is too big;

the government is too complex. The best we can do is to understand the

general movement of the whole operation and make sure it stays on the

track. I think the man, if he's qualified — and I'm sure he must be; I

had nothing to do with the hiring, of course — will give the

information that is necessary for both the opposition and the

government to understand the actual facts.

I have a note

delivered to me which I must read, Mr. Chairman. I'll tell you, it's

not fit to be read in this House. Mr. Chairman, I know you'll rule me

out of order. You know, we're having fun this morning on the Heal

affair, and when the member for Shuswap-Revelstoke made a speech, he

did it in jest. It would not appear that way in Hansard , but it

was in jest. It was fun. He's needling us for what we're doing. If he

would just stop for a moment to consider what is being done, he would

see that government wants to establish the centre line of information

for the use of the people and of this House. To my knowledge that has

not been available in British Columbia up to this time. I think it's

high time.

The press must report as they see and hear. There

is no guideline, no governing influence and no establishment of fact

where they can gather and say, "This is what it is," and build their

story around that. We want to get away from climactics. I think this

opposition has plenty to criticize. Of course they have. That's their

job. But unless they have the guidelines, the governing influence and

the knowledge of the full facts that will be portrayed by this man

Heal, I think we're working a little in the dark. I know they're not

taking it too seriously, and I know they're making fun of it, but it's

really not funny. It's serious.

I commend the minister for

realizing that such a position was necessary. I commend him for

standing up here and taking the flak which it was obvious he would have

to take. What else could you think? "The man was brought in for

polishing the Social Credit image." Well, I never heard of polishing an

image of a Social Crediter, because there's nothing to be polished. I

know they're using easy and fun words, but what I'm saying is that it's

not here to polish the image of the Social Credit Party. Although

Social Credit will be in office for the next 20 years, there will be a

time when someone else will take that side of the House. When that time

comes, I hope that the same kind of man or woman will be there to do

that job and to establish the knowledge of what the government is doing

so that there is no question of the facts. The press can build up on

that. Today the press must build

[ Page 5259 ]

piece

on piece — one beating the other — without any standard level of

understanding or any measurement. I commend the minister on this

appointment. I think it was well done. He faced the flak he knew he'd

have to take.

HON. MR. WOLFE: Since we're nearing the

time of adjournment, I just wanted to make a comment or two on what the

member for Shuswap-Revelstoke had said earlier, and in addition what

the member for Dewdney (Mr. Mussallem) said. I think we should be

mindful of the fact that government is the biggest business in the

province. It's a very large business, and there is a demand on us to

explain its services to the best of our ability.

I fail to

see why the opposition are so concerned and uptight about the

audio-visual unit. They continue to show concern over that. Surely it's

incumbent on us to modernize, improve and continue to maintain this

facility. It's no different than a government vehicle which requires

repair. With modern-day media requirements, we're talking about using

electronic releases, as opposed to printed releases, and the basic need

to use these facilities for training purposes.

Just a word about the so-called Sedawie contract. We've had a lot of laughs

over this. I'd like to make it very clear that this firm has never been

asked, nor has anyone been asked, to give lessons or demonstrations to ministers

or members in body language or make-up or any of this kind of thing. It's

a fun thing to talk about, manufactured from a newspaper story. but there's

been no direction to them, or from them to us, to address ourselves to this

question. I think we should be clear on this. It's strictly a flimflam argument.

for trying to improve our image in British Columbia, we have the lowest

unemployment that we've had in years, the highest number of

incorporations, a fantastic building program taking place and thousands

of people flocking to the province. We have the examples of British

Columbia Place, Transpo '86, the trade and convention centre and the

northeast coal contract, all forward developments for this province.

Does this look like we're trying to polish up an image? We have these

important projects in British Columbia which it's necessary to explain.

There's no real problem of image. We simply must continue to improve

and modernize the facilities which we use for this purpose. With that,

I will move that the committee rise and report progress and ask leave

to sit again.

The House resumed: Mr. Speaker in the chair.

The committee, having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again.

Hon. Mr. Gardom moved adjournment of the House.

.Motion approved.

The House adjourned at 12:02 p.m.

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