PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. TUESDAY, MAY 17, 1977

May 17,1977 Tape 2812 .-\11-1 The House met at 10.00 A.~. Hr. Speaker in the Chair. ~AR. SPE..-\KER: Order please: PRESENTDrG PETITIONS MR.. SPEAKER: Ron. member for Conception Bay South. HR. \'OLA1'1': Mr. Speaker, I have a petition here signed by 1,821 residents concerning the reconstruction and paving of the Witless Bay Line.

A portion of this,as some of you may know,because of the way districts have been jimmied up and so on,extends over in the Conception Bay South,some of it into the district of Ferryland obviously, and before I present this may I thank the han '-anister of Finance, ':·Tho unfortunately is not present this morning,and I believe his executive assistant, Mr. Roc~well,who were kind enough to bring this to ~! attention. The petition is n~-ie the undersigned residents of the district of Ferryland, Harbour Hain".,.. !larbour Main being the han.

Minister of Finance's district,of course-"Conception Bay petition the provincial and federal governments through the Department of Highways for the continued upgrading, reconstruction and paving of the Witless Bay Line from the Southern Shore Highway to the Trans-Canada Highway which at present is,and has been for some time,in a deteriorated state and unfit to travel on safely. !his road is the only link between the Trans-Canada Highway and the area and if this road were upgraded it would offer a scenic route for short drives from St.

John's along the Conception Bay Highway, Holyrood access road, Pitless :Say Line, Southern Shore Highway or from any other point or points on the route in the same manner as the scenic drive from St. John's, Logy Bay, Torbay is nmv available to tourists and residents alike. At present half t~is road can be travelled an?roximately seven months of the year and even in the Summer months is often rendered inpassable by heavy rains. By, having the road ungraded and open year-round it

May 17,1977 Tape 2812 AH- 2 ~vould afford the residents of the area not¥ wor king in Long Harbour and Holyrood convenient access bet~een hom~ and wor k as ,.-ell as pr oviding year - round access fo r approximately 160 families to their homes on the Hitless Bay !.ine . The number of trucks haul~g. freight,gas and fuel across the Witless Bay Line has not been determined, but undoubtedly would ~e inc ~eased conside~ably from the ?resent n umber now ~auling if the road were upgr aded and made safe fo r year-round dr iving .

Southern Shore froz en fis~ ?lan t s and fish plants in other l ocalitie s such as Tr inity Bay and Bonavi s ta Bay t3at conduct business in the area are obliged,becau s e of the perishable nature of the product,to haul fish across t~e Witless Bay Line at great axnense to t hemselve s for tvear and tea r on equipment . t~en the Witless Bay Line is completed

May 17, 1977 Tape 2813 PK - 1 Mr. Nolan: the people of Conception Bay could commute to the fish plants in Bay Bulls, Witless Bay, Tors Cove, and Fermeuse and avail themselves of the opportunity for work in t~e plants where help is a problem at present. The approximate number of pounds of fresh fish hauled yearly to and from the plants, Mr. Speaker, is 15 million pounds. The fish is hauled as far as White Bay seven days a week from Hay to No11ember each year, road conditions permitting.

In addition to fresh fish,this road is used to haul offal to the fish meal plant in Witless Bay from plants in Dildo, Bay de Verde, Harbour Grace and Bonavista Bay. Blueberries, Mr. Speaker, are also transported across the Witless Bay Line in large quantities in season.

There is a potential food herring business available to keep the fresh fish plants in this area operating on a year-round basis. if the Witless Bav Line were in a condition to travel year-round to permit transporting of fresh herring. 1'We would suggest that if a survey was made of the Witless Bay Line by the appropriate Provincial Government Departments on the points that I ~entioned, Mr. Speaker, then we do not hesitate to state that they will agree the Witless Bay Line could be and should be reconstructed and paved and it should be done immediately. We request consideration of your petition." Now, Mr.

Speaker, may I say that I believe this petition in the form that I have here is perhaps one of the finest ever presented in this House.

And those residents ~mo went to the trouble to put it together over 1,000 as I mentioned, 1321 names, should certainly be commeneed for the effort.As I said they are from Calvert, from Harbour Main- I do not want to go through all of the various districts here- :appahayden, Renews and so on, but may I also say that it supported too by documentation from various companies, Bonavista Cold Storage Company, Newfoundland Quick Freeze Freeze Limited, Bay Bulls Sea Products, Witless Bay Fish Meal Limited, Southern Sand and Gravel Limited; in addition to

May 17, 1977 Tape 2813 PK - 2 Mr. Nolan: that there are a number of letters here that have been writeen to the Minister of Transportation that are enclosed, M. A. Powell Limited in Carbonear, the Earle Freighting s~rvice Limited, and Ocean Harvesters Limited in Harbour Grace, and I could go on and on, Mr. ?peaker, but I believe it is one of the best petitions~as I said, Southern Construction Limited is another one here, Golden Eagle Canada Limited, R.

Clowe Transport Limited, and I only mention these in addition to the 1,821 names contained in this petition. ~ow the Witless Bay Line is a historic artery in many way~ - that many of you would be familiar with.

And I would again commend the people who have gone to the trouble to put this presentation together ,as a petition, I believe- one of the best that has ever been presented in this House of Assembly, And I hope that their plea will not go unrecognized by the ~1inister of Transportion or for that matter because of the interest expressed by the Minister of Fisheries~who I am sure is very, very familiar with it, in fact, I k~ow he is. So with that in mind, Mr. Speaker, I would like to lay this petition upon the Table of the House for referral to the department to which it relates. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. ~""EARY: Mr. Speaker, I could not let this opportunity go by, Sir, without supporting the petition so ably presented by my han. friend and colleague th~ member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan). As the han. gentleman pointed out, Sir, this is a far- reaching petition inasmuch as it covers three ~rovincial districts. And I wou~d not be a bit surprised, Sir, if the road is probably used ~~tensively by trucks and vehicles from various other districts here on the Avalon Peninsula.

So I would say it involves actually more than three districts, although the petitioners represent people

May 17, 1977 Tape 2813 PK - 3 Mr . Neary: who live L~ the three districts of Harbour ~ain, Bell Island, Ferryland and Conception Bay South. I would think, :1r . Speake r, that the govenll!lent ~ould be very anxious to do soaet~ing about this road before the by- election is called. The Premier indicated to the ctouse last week tha t the weather is warming up a little bit - AN RON . ~ER : It is colder today . MR . NEA..~Y : I beg your pardon? AN HON. MEMBER· . It is colde r today . MR . NEARY: It. is colder today . The temperature is down a little bi t today.

But any day at all now, Sir, ~e are likely t o wake up wi th eighty degree temperatures, and the next thing you know we are into a by- election . And I am sure that before the by-election is called in Ferryland and in St . John 's West that this road will be started, and the people do~~ there will_ get their stadium and all the othe r things that they have been promised. So I have no hesita t ion at

May 17,1977 Tape 2814 AH-1 HR. NEARY: all, Sir, in supporting the prayer of the petition. I do hope that the ~inister of Transportation and Communications will be able to find the money. And I think the petitioners do not expect the provincial government to do this by themselves; they are asking that this be a joint venture, provincial and federal governments.I presume they are referring to one of the DREE - making it a DREE project under the DREE agreement and I believe that would be a good idea, Mr. Speaker, and I support the prayer of the petition. I hope that the minister will take the appropriate action.

MR.. SPE.A_,_l{ER: ~!R • MO RGAlT : Hon. minister of Transportation and Communications. ~fr. Speal<.er, just to comment on the petition.

Realizing of course the importance of the petition, it is signed apparently by the petitioners from at least three districts, three provincial districts and the fact that I am sure it is quite important to my colleague ~the ~,~inister of Fisheries ~taking into consideration that it is at least four or possibly five fish plants <.Nho are tlSing that road, for example, the \-Tit less Bay fish IJlant, the Fermeuse fish ?lant, Tors Cove, Calvert, Fermetlse all these fish plants are either trucking their products from the plants over the road or they are trucking in some cases tee - not the final product, the raw product to other larger plants around the Province • . t\11 I can say, ~lr.

Spea.l.:,er, as I have said on -rr.any occasions in speaking and commenting on petitions~is that petitions of this nature, in fact all petitions brought to the Rouse of Assembly ¥!ill be given every consideration by the department~and hopefully in this case,because the prayer of the petition is asking that participation be from the federal level as well,that when respresentations are made or consultations or discussions with the federal level of government. __ through my colleague the ~inister of Intergovernmental Affairs that Ottawa will give the same consideration to this request from these

Hay 17,1977 Tape 2814 AH-2 MR. MORGAN: three provincial districts. ~ffi.. SPEAKER: Ron. Leader of the Opposition. MR.. ROBERTS : ~Ir. Speaker, if I could say a word or two in support of ~.;hat is a most excellent and to me a most reasonable petition. I regret we are not allo~<Jed to debate petitions, Maybe we should change the rules,because I would like to be able to say that I think the Minister o£ Tr~~sportation is misleading when he advised that Ottawa ~re going to get involved in this~but I cannot say that.

I know the prayer of the petition asks for it and I would dearly love to see it, but I think the minister would be the very first to admit~if he were being truthful,that that is just not going to happen in the forseeable future. ~ow I would hope, Sir, the work is done this year. I will venture to predict that some of it 'vill be done.

I know my friend from LaPoile and my friend from Conception Bay South will understand what I am saying •·rhen I say that I would not be at all surprised if a start were made on the Eastern end of the Witless Bay Line this year,if certain commitments were made and the work was to be carried on in view of the rise in the temperature to which the gentleman from LaPoile has referred. I ~.;auld hope, Sir, the ~.rork will be done. I think the Witless Bay Line is an important artery, lt has ~een partially reconstructed and I think the reconstruction ought to be completed and then it ought to be upgraded and paved.

I would think, Sir, that people ~>Till be watching carefully <Y'hen the high,.;ays 1noney is allocated this year, whether the minister announces it or not, because people will be watching 1 to be quite candid,to see whether the minister is being partisan in his allocations or '=vhether he is assigning the money in proportation to the needs.

If he is assigning it in proportation to the needs, Sir, there can be no doubt that a start ou?!ht to be made on the ~-~·itless Bay Line this year, an important artery that serves a great number of people~ that ••auld orovide an alternate road connection between the Southern Shore and the Trans-Canada and thns Conception Bay South and Harbour

May 17,1977 Tape 2814 AH- 3 MR .

ROBERTS: Main ,an artery that serves a nu!l',ber of fish plan ts, an artery that in every ~ay is an imuortant road and I would venture to say t hat if the Xinister of Transportation is being at all impartial - I do not expect him to be completel y i mpart5.al , nobody could be - but if he is being at all impartial , if he is being non - partisan, if he is doing something other than merel y spending what highway dollars there are in districts which have sent Tory members to t he Rouse, if that is the case, if he is to be re~ati vely imp.artial there will be money allocated this year for the Southern Shore road - there is , - I am sor~ for t he Southern Shore road and for the Witless Bay Line.

There is beginning to get around this Province the feeling that the ~nister of Tr ansportation will spend ~oney only in Tory dis tricts . The minister may think that is smart politics, I do not, :

May 17, 1977 Tape no. 2815 Page 1 - ms ~~r. Boberts . but more than that, I think it is not second class, I think it is fourth class politics. I have had phone calls from the Northern Peninsula. I have had phone calls from other districts. And the minister will be judged by ~.;hat he does. And we will see what he does this year. It is too early to tell. ro!R. MORGAJ.'l': w'here is that? 1:-fR. ROBERTS: The Northern Peninsula. The money that is being spent on the ~orthern Peninsula this year is DFEE money, ninety per cent from Ottawa. Ten per cent provincial, ninety per cent federal.

Ninety per cent federal, ten per cent provincial. And what r..;e are ~-1ondering nm.; is whether some of the by-roads are going to be paved? They have been paved L~ the St. Barbe district. And the question now is whether they are going to be paved in the Northern part and whether they are going to be paved in Fogo district as '·Tell as in Bonavista North district? ~. ~fORGAL'if : (Inaudible). HR. ROBERTS: 1;/e will see, Sir. All I say - ~tffi.. MORGA.i'i: (Inaudible) . t'ffi.. ROBERTS : ~1r. Speaker - MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: - ~r.

Speaker, am I allowed to say my few remarks without harassment~ ~. SPE&~R: Order, please! I must call to hon. gentleman's attention on ~oth sides that during the procedure for petitions hon. members should speak on the material allegation,and others should not interrupt~ and there should not be a process of debate. The hon. mel!lber. rffi.. ROBERTS: Thank you, ~-rr. Speaker.

May 17, 1977 Tape no. 2815 Page MR. HORGAN: On a point of order, Yr. Speaker. NR. SPEA.'CEP.: A point of order. 2 - ms MR.. MORG&'l: ~r. Speaker, I afl of the opinion, th~ uncerstanding from the rules of the House is that han. members can conment on a petition, either in support of or just commenting on a petition. But I am now of the impression that the han. Leader of the Opposition is debating the petition by putting forward arguments regarding certain sections of the Province which are not connected with the petition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, to that poL~t of order.

I would not attempt to comment on the han. gentleman's understanding of the rules, because that passeth all understanding. I do not think I was into the area of debate. I was perhaps being led astray by han. gentlemen opposite who were putting invitations in my t'lay, tending to lead me into debate. But as I heard, Your Honour's ruling did not call me to order for debating the petition. I know that I cannot debate a petition. I began by saying - I wish I could, because I could expose what I believe to be the inadequacies of the Minister of Transportation. But I am not allowed to do that.

If I may, Your Honour, I would like to finish my brief remarks, because time is going to run out otherwise unless Your Honour wishes to make a further ruling. MR. SPEAKER: The only thing I would say is actually the han. gentleman interjected immediately after I had in fact drawn these matters to the House's attention. So 11othing transpired bet>veen my saying that and the hen. gentleman's submission. ~. ROBERTS: Well thank you, Sir. As I said,the han. gentleman's understandL<g of the rules literally ·· passeth all understanding. I support the petition, Sir.

I think it is a very reasonable one, I thin~ it ought to be granted, and I would say, as I have said, that it ~.;ill. be a test of the ~finister of Transportation's Lmpartiality and his dedication to proper priorities to see whether work is done on the Witless Bay Line this year.

Hay 17, 1977 Tape no. 2815 Page 3 - ms NOTICES OF NOTION: MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. ~-- YAYNAPJ): Ur. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow• ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Crow-n Lands Act." ~1R. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Justice. MR. HICKM...AN: r-flt. Speaker, I give notice that I trill on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "

An Act To Amend The District Courts Act, 1976." And on behalf of my colleague, the han. Minister of Health, a bill, "An Act To Amend The 1-.Jestern Memorial Hospital Corporation Act, 1947," and a bill, "An Act To .'\mend The Hospitals Act, 1971." k~SWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, under that heading, I wonder if the Minister of Hines and Energy is yet in a position to answer the question I asked the other day, which he took as notice, with respect to the wages and salaries and other emoluments paid to the directors and officers of the Hydro Corporation? 'Brian 1 ? HR.

NEARY: Under this heading also, does the same minister have the information concerning the free bus service provided by Nev7.foundland Hydro from the Avalon Eall to the Donovans Industrial Park? MR. FLIGHT: ~r. Speaker, under this heading as well - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I think there would develop quite a change in procedure if under routine Headi.."lg J. <,.;e were to assume one could do the same thing as routine Heading VI. So when one han. gentleman asked the question, I did not interject. Nm.; that that pattern is c!eveloping, I certainly think I should.

And since there has been no answer to those, then obviously hon. gentlemen T.ay ask them under Oral Questions. But it will appear to allow that to continue ;wuld in a sense have two Oral Question periods; one of unspecified duration and the other thirty minutes. I do not think that would be the intention of the rules. The han. minister. ~·lR. 1-'ATiiARD: ~r. Speaker, under

May 17, 1977 Tape 2816 PK - 1 Mr. Maynard: Item VI would like to table the answer to Question No. 229 asked by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). ORAL QlJESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Leader of the Opposition. HR. ROBERTS: A question for the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture with respect to the advertisments- by the way,I think quite a good programme of advertisments on the spruce budworm and the measures to deal with that particular infestation. Could the minister tell us please who is preparing the advertisments?

And growing out of that~are there any agency fees or commissions being paid in respect of these advertisments either for the preparation or for the placing, and if so, to ~vhom? MR.. SPEAKER: MR. MAYNARD: newspaper ads? MR.. ROBERTS: MR. MAYNARD: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. I would assume the Leader is talking about the Yes, but people in the radio (Inaudible). Well it is in two parts~ The newspaper advertisements and the radio spots are prepared by ~iewfoundland Information Services, and the television is being prepared by McConnell Advertising of Toronto. MR. ROBERTS: MR. • SPEAKER: MR.

ROBERTS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. Can the minister tell us how much - obviously NIS are not being paid any more than what they get in their normal services - can they tell us how much McConnell will get? And were tenders called? There were proposals invited for this,or is this another patronage appointment? MR. SPEft~R: The hen. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR~ MAYNARD: Proposals were in vi ted for it and ~lcConnell was selected.

Tne exact amount of the television advertising I do not recall, I know that the total programme is around the $50,000 mark, that is for radio, television, newspaper ads and everything included.

May 17, 1977 MR. ROBERTS: MR.. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary. A supplementary. Tape 2816 PK - 2 Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the minister may not have this information, but if he does not, will he get it for us. From whom were proposals invited? Will the minister produce a copy of the letter or the request for proposals, and will he indicate who made the selection of McConnell Advertising? MR.. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYN /dill : The selection of McConnell Advertising was made by myself, Mr. Speaker. As far as the other documentation, no, I will not produce it.

I will produce the figures as to what is being spent on each particular component of the campaign. MR. ROBERTS: Patronage! Sheer Tory patronage~ There were no prooosals.none at all. MR.. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile follcwed by the han, member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. NEA..tzY : Justice, Sir. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Would the minister indicate to the House if in the past twelve months in this Province if any telephones have been authorized to be bugged or tapped by either the minister or his counterpart, the Federal Minister in Ottawa? MR. SPEAKER: The hen.

Hinister of Justice. MR.. HI CKMAI."i : There is a provision for that information under the Criminal Code of Canada, and I follow assiduously that

section of the code. MR. ROBERTS: MR. HICKMAJ.'T: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Can the minister authorize? No. The judges authorize. A supplementary question? A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, has the minister had any requests from either the RC}W, the Newfoundland Constabulary or from any other law enforcement agency or from anybody in the Province to L~vestigate wiretappings, telephones being tapped and so on? Has there been any complaints to the minister? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice.

May 17, 1977 Tape 2816 PK - 3 MR.. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, there have been no complaints to me. The requests have not come to me nor would they come to me l).tlder the Criminal Code of Canada. There is a provision under the Code where a person or persons are designated as being the persons who can make the application to the courts, and I am not that person.

The person'las I recall.,is the Director of Public Prosecutions in this Province. 'fhere may or may not 'be but one or two Royal Canadian Mounted Police officers designated by either the Minister of Justice or the SolicitQr General, but I am not certain of that. there have been no complatnts, none at all. But certainly MR . NEAH.Y : A supplementary question to the Minister of Transportation and Communications, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR .

NEA...1(Y : Will the Minister of Transportation and Communications in his capacity as minister responsible for communications indicate to the House why it was necessary for the minister to request his Direcot:or of Communications to ask to have an investigation carried out to see if the minister's telephone was bugged? MR. • SPEA...!(ER: The hon . ~· finis ter of T:-aasp ortatio !l c:nci Cctmiluni ations .

May 17, 1977 Tape no. 2817 Page 1 - ms MR.MORG/u\f: Mr. Speaker, the Director of Communications has not asked the telephone company to investigate any potential bugging, but there have ~een considerable complaints with regards to ministers' telephone lines whereby when the lines are used or in use, by their secretaries or themselves,_particularly my own - and a number of my colleagues have noticed this - that when using the phone, they can pick up the recordings of the House of Assembly. And when making a speech in the House, it can be heard when you are calling any of the numbers within the building.

So there is an interference on these telephone lines. \That is causing the interference we do not know in the Department of Communications. So_, therefore, the director has passed this along to the officials to take some corrective action to overcome this problem. There has never. been any indication referred to the telephone company that we think there is bugging. But we ~~ow there is a problem there, and we want to correct it. MR. SPEAKER: The han, member for Trinity -Bay de Verde followed by the hon. gentleman fro Conception Bay South. MR. Rm-IE: ~r.

Speaker, I have a question for the I~inister of Education, Sir.

In view of the fact that during Committee stage, consideration of the Education estimates, three members of the House of Ass@mhly took very strong objections to what the President of the University is quoted to have said, "He '\V'Ould show the budget of the University to the press before he would show it to the politicians." The minister mumbled,when we were speaking to that, that the president had not said that, in fact . he told them that he had not said that, would the minister set the record straight on that, because last night during the consideration of the budget the minister did not formally acknowledge the fact that the President of the University denied having said that?

May 17, 1977 Tape no. 2817 Page 2 - ms MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I had said - you said I mumbled it - I said that the president said that he had been misquoted. And he did not intimate that he would give it to,.the press and not give it to the House of Assembly. That was his statement to me. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. Rm.ffi: Ttfuat in fact did the President of the University say, Nr. Speaker; concerning the budget~ SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPE&~R: Order, please! MR. ROWE: The last question was a supplementary. Is there an answer? ~~~.

HOUSE: I stated that the president said that he had been misquoted. I do not know exactly what he said, but he said that be had been misquoted in saying ~•hat he is re puted to have said. ~'ffi.. ROWE: A further supplementary, ~r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROWE: Sir, what representations has the minister made to the President of the University in order to get the detailed budget of the Lniversity tabled before this House of Assembly similarly to the new Polytechnical Institute and the College of Trades and Technology?

Is there any intention of the minister of bringing in an amendment to the University Act? ~fR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. HOUSE: There is a Cabinet Committee that deals with the University budget and L~e University Board of Regents. NR. :lEARY: Is the ~inister on the Co~ittee? ~-- HOUSE: Yes. And representation has been made and requests by letter~ but there has just been a very brief breakdown of the budget, abcut th~ee or four items, and that is all ''le have received.

May 17, 1977 Tape no. 2817 Page 3 - ms A supplementary. ~1R. SPEA..l{ER: A final supplementary. The han. member for Trinity -Bay de Verde. MR. ROl-lE: Does the minister intend to make any further representations to the President of the University or the University Senate or Board of Regents to get a further breakdown of the University's budget before the Committe, Sir? ~. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister of Education. MR. HOUSE: Hr. Speaker, that decision will have to come from the Cabinet Committee to government. MR. ROBERTS: The minister -we do not question the Committee, we question the minister! MR.

ROWE: T,Jhy does not the minister take the bull by the horns? MR. HOUSE: The Cabinet Committee, Xr. Speaker, deals with the University and, of course, the financing is put in the Education budget. MR. ROBERTS: Who is on the Committee then so we can ask them? :HR. NEARY: A S1.1pplementary question, ~r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final s~pplementary on this line and then the han. gentleman for Conception Bay South. MR.

NEARY: Would the minister indicate in connection with the University budget, would the minister indicate why the Board of iegents at the University recently authorized a $15 surcharge for students who are registering or re-registering at the University, and what this surcharge is to be used for? MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. ~ffi. • HOUSE : Mr. Speaker, that was an internal arrangement, and I have no knowledge of it. ~ffi.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South.

~ay 17,1977 Tape 2818 AH-1 MR. NOLk'J: Hr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Justice. I am wondering ~vhat the minister, or how the minister could respond to the suggestion,! believe, in the news story in yesterday's Dail y ~Te1v-s by ~·~agistrate Luther concerning the fact that the Department of Justice should have lawyers, I believe, to prosecute in certain cases that were mentioned, I believe, in some detail in yesterday Is Daily News report? I r..;ould like to have the minister Is response to the magistrate's recommendation and suggestion since he seems to be quite upset by the current situation. ~.

SPEAKER: Ron. Minister of Justice. MR. HIGKMAN : Mr. Speaker, I read that in this mcrning's paper as_ well and made an inquiry. We do have MR. NOLAN: That was yesterday's. MR.

HICKHA.t.'J: Yesterday's paper and made an inquiry this morning of the Director of Public Prosecutions. \<1e now have eight Crown Prosecutors plus the director plus the Chief Crown'Prosecutor, that is ten and ':ve plan on moving four Crown Prosecutors downtown by the end of this - I think by the end of May, will have offices down there. ~fu.ether they will be able to prosecute all breathalyzer cases I do not know, I also am not certain ':vhether it is necessary to have someone prosecuting all breathalyzer cases and in that respect I will take the advice of the Chief ~agistrate and the Director of Public Prosecutions.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementarJ. MR. NOLA.t.~: As a supplementary, yes, Mr. Speaker. Well does the lawyers' welfare package help in this way through Legal Aid? Can that assist at all? ~1R. RICKHA.1~: Legal Aid is a great concept of the Progressive Conservative government of ~ewfoundland- ~fR. ~TO~T: Nonsense, nonsense, shame - HR. HICI0f}.)T: -that is designed, that is designed. \~ell if it is shame I do not apologize for it.

May 17,1977 Tape 2818 AH-2 HR. NOLAN: You were not saying that when you were a Liberal~ How hypocritical can a man be! Are you not afraid you will be struck dead? HR. HICI0~\l : I am proud of it, ~r. Speaker, proud that we have a Legal Aid l'rograrnme that is designed~ and that I had a hand in so designing,that looks after the oppressed. SOHE RON. i"fEHBERS : Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

ROBERTS: It is nice to know the minister had a hand in something beside his own pocket~and I am not allowed to debate the programme so I will not~but I would point out that the Legal Aid Programme is funded almost entirely by the ~overn~ent of Canada. ~ow my supplementary - }ffi. HIC~~T:I am proud to keep my hand in my own packet. 3ome laT..;yers may not. ~. ROBERTS: Well the hon. gentleman practices and if he ~-ian ts to speak about practice I cannot. But, ~1r.

Speaker, the supplementary is this; the minister said he was not sure~ It was not his opinion that it was necessarily proper to have lawyers nrosecuting-to represent the Crown; . that it was not necessary to have the Crown represented by legal counsel in prosecutions under the criminal code arising out of the breathalyzer sections. He might say prosecutors if necessary but not necessarily prosecutions,to paraphrase a much paraphrased statement. ~fy question, Sir, is this.

Given the fact that almost every defendant, and I would venture to say 99.59 per c~nt of all oeoole charged ~.;rith these offences are now being represented by legal counsel, most of whom I gather exercise considerable ingenuity in the devices which they raise quite properly and quite within the ·c rules by way of defence. Given this fact does not the minister perhaps think that the Crown should be represented by legal counsel

Hay 17,1977 ?1R. ROBERTS: Tape 2818 AH-3 because what happens is the Crown is represented by non-legally trained police officers,who may or may not be competent in prosecutions, some are assigned to prosecutions some are not, some are just sent in for the day to prosecute these particular sessions, in this light does not the minister think that perhaps he ought to reconsider and the Crown ought to be represented by l~vyers as Magistrate Luther has suggested? MR.. SPEAKER: Ron. Minister of Justice. MR.

HICKMAl\f ~ That is a long question so I hope I will be permitted to give the appropriate ans\ver and will not be accused of undue length. MR. NOLA;.'!: No legal opinions now, and will a day and a half do? '1-1R. FLIGHT: Just a yes or no, boy: '1R. SPE.::\_KER: Order please! ~r. Speaker, we have in this Province now the largest number of Crown Prosecutors that we have ever had in the history of Netvfoundland. I repeat - ~fR. HICIOfb."i: ~!R. ROBERTS: And we also got the largest number of lawyers in ~Tetvfoundland. MR.

HICKHfu.\T: f:le have the Director of Public Prosecutions, the Chief Crown Prosecutor and eight other prosecutors. The last three ~.;ere recently appointed, He lvere not flooded with applications from within or 'tlithout ~e~vfoundland for the positions of Crown Prosecutors when 've advertised just a fetv short weeks ago. HR. NOLA..l\l': Did the minister apply?

May 17, 1977 Tape 2819 PK - 1 Mr. Hickman: The law provides that the police may prosecute;and realistically there will be police prosecutions in this Province for a long, long time to come. On the question of breathal~zers~I was not aware that the majority of accused persons on breathalyzer. test cases - MR. ROBERTS: MR. HICIG1&\l: I am told that all of them are now. -were defended by solicitors. In fact I would be very surprised if that was the case on breathalyzers because, I think, in most instances obviously there is a plea of guilty on the breathalyzer cases.

Insofar as the Crown being represented by Counsel in the prosecution of breathalyzer cases obviously MR. ROBERTS: MR. HI CKMAJ.\l: the Director of Public Prosecutions has to. Take it as read. - maRe a judgemental decision, and decide on the type of cases that he feels that the Crown should be represented in by SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ROBERTS: An unsuccessful Water Carter. MR. HICKMAN: Crown Prosecutors. And obviously he has not come to that conslusion with respec~ to the - MR. ROBERTS: See what you started~'Walter' with your answer. MR. HICK¥..AN: - I did not ask the lengthly question, Mr. Speaker. MR.

NOLAN: Is this limited to seventy-five hours, Mr. Speaker? MR. HICKMAN: - but it evoked a lengthly answer. MR. ROBERTS: I just asked the minister - is he aware - MR. HICIOfAN: I apologize to the House for the lack of concern on the part of the han. Leader of the Opposition for time when he asked such a lengthly and provocative question. And, you know, I am humbly trying to succinctly answer it as quickly as I can, but I am being harassed by the han. gentlemen opposite and I think that it is totally unfair -

May 17, 1977 Tape 2819 PK - 2 MR. NOLAN: God help your .clients. 50ME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: MR.. HICK..""l.l\..."1: from these wild - MR. NOLAN: It is easy to praise - (Inauditle) I look to Your Honour for protection God help your clients. They will be in the Hayles Home before they ever get to court. MR.. HICK1'1AN: - vicious attack that are coming opposite, and I can see the look of concern on the face of the - the justifiable concern on the face of the hon. member for LaPoile (:!r. Neary), the Leader opposite. MR. NOUU~: Raise your hands and roll your eyes heavenward 'Alex'. MR.

HICIG-I'..AJ.\1: I do not want to do anything, Hr. Speaker, that would in any way offend my han. friend 1 the '~eader for LaPoile. &.\! RON. ME:t·ffiER: It is taken as read, Xr. Speaker. MR. HIC101AN: But, Mr. Speaker, I do not want to comment on the particular case that was in the paper yesterday~because I am advised by the Director of Public Prosecutions that an appeal is being launched forthwith, so that matter is still before the courts. If there is any further clarification necessary I will do my utmost to try and advise the House of the fact3. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Before recognizing the hon. member for Baie Verte-White Bay I would like to welcome to the House of Assembly thirty-seven students, Grade VIII,from St. Theresa's School in St. John's. they are accompanied by their teachers Yir. Dodd and ~1iss 1-J'alsh. I know all hon. members join me in welcoming these students to the House of Assembly. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ XR. SPEAKER: l1R. RIDEOUT: see what happens. The bon. member for Baie Verte-w~ite Bay. Mr. Speaker, we will try another minister now and I have a question for the Minister of Tourism.

May 17, 1977 Taoe 2819 PK - 3 MR. ROBERTS: You are getting to thi top. MR. RIDEOUT: I wonder if the minister could tell the House, Mr. Speaker, whether or not negotiations are presently underway between game ~vardens enployed by his department and the t:;overnment of Newfoundland and Labrador? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: I will have to take that under advisement, Mr. Speaker, I cannot inform the hon. gentleman, especially when it was not brought to my attention. MR. RIDEOUT: MR. SPEAKER: MR. RIDEOUT: A supplementary. A supplementary. Mr.

Speaker, is the minister saying he does not know whether the people are working for him or negotiating or what? Is that what the minister is saying? MR. HORGAN: He took the question under advisement, Leave the man alone. MR. HICKEY: Repeat the question again. MR. RIDEOUT: I asked the minister if he could tell the House whether or not negotiations - MR. HICKEY: No, no, I got that , . The last one. MR. RIDEOUT: Well the last part of the question out of the fact that you took the first one under advisement - does the minister know whether or not his employees, the game wardens 1 are in contract negotiations? MR.

SPEAKER: MR. HICKEY: a helicopter. MR.. RIDEOUT : MR. HICKEY: The han. Minister of Tourism. Mr. Speaker, I do not hover over my staff with That is a very simple question. This is a very simple question~ I gave the hon. gentleman a very simpl~ answer, I will take it under advisement. Would he prefer I give him - what would he prefer I utter an untruth, and say, yes or no, when I am nat sure. gentleman is very sensitive this morning. MR. RIDEOUT: So is the hon. minister. The hon.

May 17, 1977 MR. HICKEY: MR. RIDEOUT: MR . SPEAKE~ : Tape 2819 PK - 4 Give me twenty-four hours and I will let him know. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The hen . member for Eagle River. I cannot see that there could be a su~plement ary aft:r this, actually. MR . RIDEOUT : HR. SPEAKER; MR. . S TRACB.AJ.\1" : They t.1ere told co resign if thev did not like che job . The hon. member for Eagle Rive r. A ques t inn for the hon . Minister of Hines and Energy. Could the minist er tell us

May 17, 1977, Tape 2820, Page 1 - - apb MR. STRACP.~.AN : when he would expect a final decision in the courts, a final decision on the recall of power? When he ~vould expect'> I am not - MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the ~inister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: I cannot give a definitive answer to that question, Mr. Speaker. MR. STRACHAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. L'!R. SPEAKER: A supplementary. HR. STRACH.Ai'J: Is the restart on the transmission line now dependent upon a final decision by the courts? MR. SPEAI{ER: and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: question, Mr . Speaker. l1R.

SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Mines The same answer as to the first A supplementary. MR. STRACHJ..l·J: I will try it again. How long does he think it would take, or he should know, it will take to get the completed transmission line into place to take delivery of the power, the recall power, from Churchill Falls? MR. SPEAKER: and Energy. ~-1R. PECKFORD: The hon. the Minister of Mines I am not sure of the exact time, r1r. Speaker. I knmv it r.vill take a year or two. MR. STR'\CF..AN: ~1R. SPEAKER: HR. STRACHAN: A final supplementary. A final supplementary. I will try it another way.

If the line is in place, the transmission line is in place,-­ and the court decision is favourable, ;~iill we have to wait until October of 1983 before the power is fed into the transmission line? HR. SPEAKER: and Energy. The hon. the ~inister of Mines

May 17, 1977, Tape 2820, Page 2 -- apb MR. PECKFORD: That depends on a whole lot of factors relating to supply and dernand, ~1r. Speaker, that I cannot conjecture about right now. HR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Windsor - Buchans, followed by the gentleman .for LaPoile. r·1R. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, ~y question is to the Minister of Mines and Energy. Has the minister received the report yet as a result of the meetings held in Grand Falls and attended by some A.D.M's and the resource people that he arranged to send out there? MR. and r1R. r.rn.. SPEAKER: Energy.

PECKFORD: SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Mines Yes, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: In view of the fact that the Premier made an undertaking last v.1eek to table that report, was the minister prepared to table the report? MR. SPEAKER: and Energy. ~1R. PECKFORD : advisement, Hr. Speaker. HR. ROBERTS: made public. MR. PECKFORD: HR. ROBERTS: The han. the Minister of Mines I have taken that under The Premier said it would be I was not aware of that. Hell I cannot help what the han. gentleman is aware of; it was said in the House. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: The han. the nember for LaPoile. Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the han. the Premier, Sir. MR. ROBERTS: prepared. MR. NEA.c~ Y : The minister should have been If we could get a little order restored in the House, Sir, and I could get the attention of the han. the Premier, I would like to ask the han. the

May 17, 1977, Tape 2820, Page 3 -- apb .HR. NE&'qY: Premier what transpired at meetings held recently between the bon. the Premier and the officials of Trizec, in connection with the controversial hotel - office building downtm·m? HR. SPEAKER : PREHIER MOORES: The hon. the Premier. Yes, they came in our of courtesy, I suppose, :t1r. Speaker, and advised us of what progress they had made to date, what they hoped to do, and basically that is all that transpired at that particular meeting. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. L-1R.

NEARY: Would the courtesy visit involve a request on the part of Trizec to rent office space to the provincial government? ~-1R. SPEAKER: .The han. · the Premier. PRE~HER r-100RES: Surprisingly enough, Hr. Speaker 1 no 1 it did not. I am sure that r.vill come as a surprise to the hon. gentleman, and the lack of a request came as a very great surprise to me, I might say. But the fact is they c&ue in, as I say, out of courtesy. Hhat they had in mind was - nothing was confidential about the meeting at all.

I am sure any progress they make, together with City Council, or themselves and their clients 1 ~·1hoever they may be, I am sure they will be making them public at the appropriate time. But as I say, there is nothing. I am not hiding anything here at all. The fact is, they just came in to give me a briefing on what progress they have made. HR. SPEAXER: A supplementary. .· MR. NEARY: In connection with the rental of office space, would the Premier indicate to the House if the report is vet in, and r.-1hat action the govern.'Tlent are going to take in connection with the office space problem? ~-1R.

SPEAKER: The han. the Premier.

May 17, 1977, Tape 2820, Page 4 -- apb PREMIER r.mORES : I understand, Mr. Speaker, the report actually arrived either yesterday or will be arriving today. It will take about a ~1eek to ten days to analyze it, and hopefully after that there will be some decisions made as to which direction we go. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. The hon. gentleman for LaPoile. MR. NE1L'R.Y: Well, I will make this a double-barrell, Sir.

Hould the han. the Premier indicate to the House that before any commiL~ents are made, either to rent space in Atlantic Place or Trizec or any other company, that a special committee of the House will be established comprising of members of both sides of the House to look into this whole matter of rental of office space for the government? HR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREl1IER MOORES: ~o. Mr. Speaker. MR. NOLAN: The Premier has. He already said so,last year in this House. PRE11IER MOORES : A different thing entirely. ~-1R. SPEAKER : The han. the member for \Vindsor - Buchans. ~1R. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, a question to the Minister of :Y1ines and Energy. Is he prepared to stand up and report to the House as to the contents ' of that report that he received from his officials with regard to the meeting between ASA.."R.CO, Price (Nfld.) and representatives of government? Would the minister care to give the House a report on that meeting and what the results of the meeting were? .l<lR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

May 17, 1977, Tape 2820, Page 5 -- apb t1R . PECKFORD : Mr . Speaker, I just read the report earlier this morning, and after I have h~d a chance to stud y it I will indicate to the hon . member \•.thet he r I arn -;.;7illing to undertake vlhat he has asked me to undertake . MR . SPEAKER: t-1R. FLIGHT : A supple..'Tientary. Well, is the minister prepared to give the Rouse the same undertaking or go along with the commib."nent that the Premier nade, that he will table that report as soon as he is ready to table it. And if so, vihen shall v.;e expect the report to be tabled? MR .

SPEAKER: The hon . the t·1inister of ~!ines and Energy . MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, that is entirely up to the Premier, and I will be talking to him about it.

May 17, 1977 MR. SPEAKER~ HR. NEA.RY: Tape no. 2821 Page 1 - ms The han. member for LaPoile. Hr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Transportation and Communications what is going to be done about the so-called Freedom Road from Goose Bay to Churchill Falls this year? Is it going to be upgraded? ~-lill anything be done with it? Could the minister give us a comment on this controversy that is raging right now in Labrador in connection with this road? MR.. S PE.AKE R : YR.. MORGAl~ : The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. Mr.

Speaker, I do not know if there is any major controversy on this matter. I have received a telegram from a committee calling themselves the Transport Committee for Labrador. I do not know who they are or who they represent, but they call themselves the Transport Committee. ~r. Herb Brett, Chairman of the Commit tee~wired asking the department r•ihat r;;;e intended to do this year. I said in the House of Assembly earlier - and I again repeat it now - that hopefully around the end of this month,or as soon as the House of Assembly will allow me to get away, my colleague, the member for Naskaupi (Mr.

Goudie) and myself, we intend to travel over that road all the way from Goose Bay to Esker ~~d then I will be in a position to know firsthand the condition and what is required. Of course, · I will be accompanied by engineers from the department to assess the situation as to how much it would cost to keep the road open this Summer and how much work is required with regards to maintenance work, etc.

So only after I have assessed the situation by travelling over the road myself from Goose to Esker, accompanied by my friend, t~e member for Naskaupi, will I be in a position to indicate to the committee from Labrador exactly what we intend to do this year. ~ffi.. m:ARY: ~2{. SPEAKER: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. One supplementary, the han. gentleman for LaPoile, then the han. member for Eagle River. ~ffi.

NEARY: Would the minister indicate if the road will be - if the minister will get a chance to look at the road and decide whether it •dll be upgraded before the Hilliam Carson makes her first trip to Goose Bay this season?

~_ay 17' 1977 Tape no. 2821 Page 2 - ms MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. HR. MORGA.'l': Mr. Speaker, I do not know what the inference is, whether or not I have to travel to Goose Bay by the \villiam Carson. MR. NEARY: Tourists going down. MR.. MORGA.!.\! : Last year, ~r. Speaker, that road was not officially opened . - MR. NEARY: MR. MORGb.'l': But there were quite a few tourists went down. - or placed in a category as being opened officially by the Newfoundland Government because of the fact that it is a long lonely road. There are no service stations. There are no conveniences at all on that road.

It is a dangerous road as it is narrow, no guardrails, etc. But a number of people - MR.. ROBERTS : MR. MORGA.~: MR. NEARY: ~. MORGAN: (Inaudible) . Hr. Speaker, if I could - But there were quite a few tourists - Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman for LaPoile wants information , but the hen. Leader of the Opposition keeps interrupting. MR. NEARY: last year. }:!R. MORGAN : There were quite a few tourists went over it You know, let the real leader get you the information, the real leader on the other side of the House. Mr.

Speaker, the hen. gentleman for LaPoile did indicate,and rightly so, last year a lot of tourists travelled from Goose over to Churchill Falls. And on the other hand a lot of people ~•orking in \vabush Mines and the Iron Ore Company and even in Churchill Falls as r..;ell travelled over that road and came down to the Island part of our Province for a vacation. Despite the fac_ ~ thet the road was not officially declared open by the government, they decided to come that route.

So recently at a meeting with \-labush ~fines they indicated - a number of their employees - indicated this year that they would be doing the same thing. So I am hoping that we can arrange to keep that road in at least a half decent driving conrlit1on.

Hay17, 1977 Tape no. 2821 Page 3 - ms Mr. Morgan. But again I repeat it is a very hazardous dangerous road because of the nature of the construction of the road itself. It was a development road, not a road really for transport. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. STP .... -\CHA.J."\1: Can the minister tell us ~vhether any work is going to be done on the road before he travels over the road? MR.. SPEAY-ER: The han. minister. MR. HORGAN: ~Ir.

Speaker, in reply to the earlier question that no decision we made with regards to what work will be carried out until we determine the exact condition of the road right now at the end of the Winter season in the area. For example, I understand a number of culverts, major culverts, the large culverts, have been ':vashed out etc. and there are some very bad sections and depending on how much it will cost to put that road in a drivable, passable condition. A final supplementary, Sir. HR. S TRACH.AN : ~!R. SPEAKER : MR. STRAC-IAN : A final supplement. The han. member for Eagle River.

Could the minister tell us whether he is going to fly over some of the rivers or culverts and so on that are washed out and the bridges which are gone and so on, because he certainly will not be able to travel over the road in order to see what it is like? MR. SPEAKER: l-IP.. HORG~{ ~ The hon. minister. Hr. Speaker, I am assuming that in Labrador least there are vehicles on both ends of the road. So in each case I am sure "tole can find a means of transport to get over these sections where the rivers are flowing. MR.. STRACHAN: ~-. ROBERTS: But there are none in the middle section. Nr.

Speaker, a supplementary. at MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition for a supplementary.

May 17, 1977 Tape no. 2821 Page 4 - ms NR. ROBERTS: Has the minister any reports from any of his officials with respect to the condition of this road? If not, is he going to get any,or is the decision as to whether or not some money is going to be spent on that road entirely one which will rest upon the minister's personal inspection, are the results of the minister's personal inspection~ ~!R. SPEluGR: The hon. minister. MR. HORGAN: No. Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman apparently was not listening when I was replying to the question. I said, I was going to be accompanied by engineers from the department. The --

May 17, 1977 Tape 2822 RT-1 MR. MORGAN: decisions. along the line of what work is required and estimates of cost are very seldom determined by myself, and I am not an engineer, but I am always accompanied on my travels by at least one engineer, and sometimes ~~o, because my Depu~y Minister is an engineer r. himself 7 /a very high calibre engineer, in fact, who is familiar with all the roads around the Province. So, usually, he accompanies me; or if not, my Assistant Deputy who is also an engineer, Mr. White. MR. ROBERTS: A further supplementary, sir? MR. SPEAKER: A further and final supplementary MR.

ROBERTS: I just asked quite generally whether there are any decisions taken within the Department of Transportation & Communications, of any sort, in which the Minister is not personally involved. MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. MORGAN: Any decisi.ons of any nature made by t~e Department of Transportation & Communications, I am always aware of. ORDERS OF TrlE DAY: On motion that the Rouse resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: i'!R. CF.AIRMAN : Order, please! 601-02 - the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Are we off the minister's salary, si~? MR.

CHAI&'1AN: Yes, 601-02. On motion 601-02, carried. On motion 602-01 through to 602-02-QS, carried. Shall 603-01 carry? The hon. member for Trinity -Bay de Verde. MR. Rm.JE: Mr. Chairman, ·if I remember correctly, when you get to a head, you can sort of discuss in a general way the various subheads under that head for the department, if I rild.tlv remember. In other words 603 is called. MR. CRAIP.E.lu'i: Yes. MR. ROWE: Right. SOME HON. ~!E¥13ERS : MR. CHAIID:!AN: Order, please! It is quite difficult to hear the han. member.

May 17, 1977 Tape no. 2822 Page 2 - ms SOME RON . tlEMEERS : Oh, oh ! MR. CHAIR¥.Al.'l': the hon. member. MR. ROWE: Mr. Chairman. Order, please~ It is quite difficult to hear I must say I have difficulty in hearing myself, Hr.

Chairman, the only thing that I would like to point out here is that with respect t'o the cutbacks in scholarships and bursaries, I would submit, is going to downgrade the incentive of many of our students in the schools - that is a pre post-secondary level ,if I can use that expression - in this Provi."lce and various educators have spoken out against the cutbacks in the Electoral Scholarships and in the Responsible Government's Centenary Scholarships. But, Sir, the minister last night in Committee stage did say, with reference to scholarships to the University, that it does not really matter.

It does not really matter because of the Student Aid Programme. ~ow we have pointed out on this side of the House, Sir, over the past five years the effects that the cutbacks in the Student Aid Programme were having on enrollment at the university. It was in fact causing a reduced enro~lment at the University. ~~d now we have a further cutback, as small as it may be, from $6,000 to $3,000 in University scholarships,I would assume.

But the fact of the matter is is that 'N'e still have this tuition and allm.rance problem,or student aid problem where students coming out of the University are left owing huge sums of money, because for everythiDg that they get in the form of what I might mention as a grant they are expected to borrolv a fairly large sum of money.

And consequently not only have we had a reduction in the student enrollment at the university for reasons other than that, reasons that I mentioned last night -but this eniversity is slowly but surely, if not - it has become a tniversity for the elite in this Province, because there are simply a great number of students \vho cannot afford to incur this huge debt over four or five or six years. And I have maintained

~!fay 17, 1977 Tape No. 2823 EC - 1 MR.

R.OHE: in sueeches in co~8ittee stage and before the Rouse over the years, that this Administration should take some steps towards standardizin~ assistance to students and all post-secondarJ educational institutions, so that a student soes to the Fisheries College, or goes to the vocational schools, or goes to the College of Trades and Technology, or will go to the Polytechnical Institute, if and 1>1hen it is built, and ~vill go to the University, because he i·lishes to go to that particular institution out of his pedagogical or educational choice, and not because the choice is made on the :,asis of how nuch money that student 11ould rec~ive in the way of aid.

I 'i·l.?.S <:vondering if the minister <:>auld be kind enough to reply as to 'tvhether or r:o t his predecessor handed along any briefs, o-r his officials have informed him of any particular steps,or direction, or oolicy, embryonic policy, that has been brought to his attention Hith resnect to trying to cwrk out son>.ethiEg i·rith t~e federal goverrnnent, as the federal o,overnr;cent, as the !:!!inister "vell ~~r;.m.,s, is l?. r~elv resuc:tsi':Jle ~or the Student Aid that ~oes to the students of the Colle~e of Trades and Technology and Fisheries College, and ivhat have you, and vocational schools, in certain courses.

But I think it is high tine, Sir, that the :'ederal government, under, I guess, the :<a~-pov:rer ~epartment, ancl. t~e '~inister of Education, proba:,ly in co-operation \vith the Departnent of Industrial ::',elations, or 'hat ever our particular provincial de-partTient is called, that they sit down and work out scm.e sort of a formula i·r':lereby students go to a nest-secondary education, or institution of their choice, and not go t~ere because of t~'le amount of dollars t:1at are availabl:: t;:, then. 3ecause ~·7hat ue have, '::Jasically, Sir, is students being paid to ~o to some post-secondary institutions, and I do not ~ean to downgrade the vocational schools and the College of Trades and Technology and the College of Yisheries, because, when ~e come to that, I a~ going to be ~entioning the fact that there should_Qe greater emphasis in the vocational and technical areas of education in t~is Province, not o:;.ly at the Dost-secondary level, ~ut at the pri:rrarv, ele..~entary and secondary level. 3ut the fact of the matter is there has been no attenpt, to my knovrledge, by this AdTiinistration, or the ~'ciilisters of Education over the years, to attemnt to ;vork out sane sort of a formula in co-o?eration vrith the !:ederal government, Hhereby students would have equal financial aid

~ · fay 17, 1977 Tape .,o . 2823 EC - 2 ~'!R. RmiE : opportunity to go to any post -seco nda r y educational institution ..:.n this Province. I think I have made t .e !)Oint as clearly, at least, as I can .. a ·e it, end. I ho. e the ministe r resnonds to it , :~r. Cheinr.an . ~·fR . ;.;;EARY : C airman, befo r e w~e ~inister r esponds co .y hon . friend, Sir , I would li~e to have a few word s about t~e Studen: ~id Appeals Soar d . Rear, hear: ~ • • YEARY: It has been brought t0 my attention, ~r.

Chairman, on a number of occasions over the past several ears, by students r,1ho have had the experience of having to appeal the cecision of the Deoart~ent in cor~ection with Stud.ent Aid by slicing it in half , by cuttfng ic down drastically - the students find the proc edure of processing a grievance very frustrating. They claim that the dice ere loaded against tl:leiil.

They clai ~ that the cards ere stac ~ ed, because the Student Ao9e~ s Board is op- heavy :vith bureaucracy , is top-heavy . dt~ reoresentet ive s of the minist~r's de art ~ent , and t~ose that are cal_ ed u on, a_t hou~h I agree, t here are t\•70 . embers of the Student Council on ~he Board , ut , nevertheless, Sir, there are one, t;,;-o, three, :our, five - there are t~.;o ;:epresen tative s of the Depart:::!ent of Education, one reore ­ sentative of the

Hay 17, 1977 Tape 2824 LB-1. 21R.NEARY: Treasury Board, two representatives of He.'!lorial University and n.;o student ~councils. So they are outueighed, they are outnumbered five to two. The students have been very discouraged in a lot of cases from processing their grievances because they feel that it is just a waste of time. T.'ley feel they ·are not going to get a fair shake.

I do not know whether this is correct or not 7 but I have had students come into my office and sit down and tell me that it is just a useless waste of time,that you are still fighting the bureaucracy, that the person ':oJ'ho prepares the submission for the student appeal board is none other than the gentleman that made a decision in the first place. ~1embers might be interested in knowing that the number of meetings that were held in the calendar year 1974 by the student appeals board was eight; 1975, six meetings were held and in 1976 only five meetings,~r. Chairman of the student appeals board Here ~eld.

Only five meetings,which indicates,Sir, >vhich bears out toJ'ha t I am saying . 7he number of meetings per year is dwindling~ is going down. The total number ~f appeals processed in the calendar year 1976 - or 1974 rather, 1975 and 1976, were 87, a very lo~:-7 number. Out of the many thousands of applications for student aid that were processed in these three years, 1974, 1975, 1976, only 87 cases tv-ere brought before the student appeals board. The total number of appeals processed by the board in 1974 were 39, 12 successful and 27 rejected. In 1975 there were 23 processed, 9 successful ar~ 14 rejected.

In 1976 the batting average Has about ·fifty-fifty, 13 successful and 12 rejected. But the students tell me~Sir, that they ••auld not bother to ,.;aste their time nov bringing matters before the student appeals board even though it is based on the record of 1976. There 1.;as a fifty-fifty decision, fifty per cent in favour and fifty per cent against. So I woudl like to hear the minister's comments on the student aid appeals board ~Sir. Is it working? Does it need to be revamped? Does it need to be beefed up.: ~a,~" the students

May 17, 1977 Tape 2824 LB=2. MR.NEARY: themselves lost confidence in the board? I would like for the minister to give us a progress report on this . It is very important to the students~Hr. Chairman, it is very important. And \·Jill the minister indicate to the House T.vhether or not the representation on the board r..rill be changec so that at least it r..rould appear to the students that they are getting a fair deal, they will get a fair shake if they put their grievance before the board ?

Is it possible to get this board : get independent people on this board, people from outside the bureaucracy of the university and outside of the bureaucracy in the minister's own department2 It is something worth thinking about Sir, and I would like to hear the minister's views on that. One other matter that I am tremendously interested in,Sir, is the programme that is partly su~sidized by the Secretary of State's department. That is the prozrarnme that ~emorial University operates on the French Island of St. Pierre and ~iouelon •. A.!.'I. RON. "Y!EillER: That is another head.

"t-1R.NEARY: It is under another head~ Hell, I thought it r.vould come under student ~id because I want to find out in this point in time what aid the students receive and does it come out of this $10,000 grant from the cecretary of State's Department,and >vho teaches the course, the courses and so forth and who pays the expenses of the instructors on St. Pierre? I know how ~ny students are enrolled there; there are 30 students enrolled during each semester.

But I would like for the minister to give us a run down on this course, because I do not believe the members of the House are really too familiar with this course. Probably a lot of the members do not even knor..r that the university operates a course in French on the Island of St. Pierre & ?1iquelon. I understand that there is a $10,000 grant to take care of light and heat:. Hell1'"hat kind of accommodations, what kind of facilities are '"e talking about? I saw a tender called recently in the -if it comes under another subhead I just as soon - ~'P.. HOUSE: Yes, it does.

March 17, 1977. Tape 2825 RH - 1 MR. NEARY : Well at this point the minister can just indicate the amount of student aid, does that come out of the $10,000 special grant from the Secretary of State Department, and give us a few more details about this progr~e on the Islands of St. Pierre and ~iquelon? MR. CRAIR...'1&~: The han. minister. MR. HOUSE: Mr.

Chairman, with regard to the first question regarding the common grants to students or financing to students attending any post secondary education, the hon. member is a~vare that the Federal Government through Manpower does buy seats and pay salaries, I suppose you can call it salaries, to people wanting to go into certain trades. This is available only after a person has been out of school for a while or in the work force for a while.

Students leaving school for pre­ employment programmes, leaving school directly, we are paying $25 for those staying away from hone per month- per 'N"eek ~and $45 if a person has dependents. With regard to the university, you know, four and five year programmes, we have met with the Secretary of State, met on these kind of programmes, made recommendations - of course, and this has been done by the council of ministers across Canada. And we suggested that no person in Canada who wants to attend a post secondary institution, they should not be barred from it for financial reasons.

And we made what I thought was a good request that the Federal Government share with the provinces the grant structures. As it stands now we have one of the best student aid programmes in Canada. ~~d I have been meeting with the student aid people and of course they are quite in agreement that we have one of the best programmes.

And you talk about the amount a student will owe when they leave university, the fact is that students have to borrow 1 through the student aid programme, $450 per semester which to all intents and purposes on a five year programme that may amount to $4,500 that they would owe when they came out of university, if they borrow the $450 per semester. Then, of course, depending on

May 17, 1977. Tape 2825 RH- 2 MR. HOUSE: their circumstances they could get up to, I believe it is something like $1,800 per year in direct grants from government, that is if they have total need. The students are quite pleased with that particular arrangement. The only problem with student aid is t~e fact that when a student makes so much money in the Summer they got to save forty-five per cent of that and that is a federal regulation. And they find that they cannot save forty-five per cent of the money they make on minimum wage, say. It is just impossible to save.

Now we have been working on that and we are hoping to get some change made in that particular policy.

The Secretary of State's answer to us when we said that students should not have to pay large sums of money when they come out of university, his answer was this, he said, "I think it is unfair for the people of Canada who are making low wages to be paying taxes to educate people who when these people come out, of course, will be making three times as much as the people who have been putting them through." So his attitude, and the Federal Government's attitude is that let us give them the education, let us give them the wherewithal. But let them pay some of it back when they finish up and start making money.

So in Newfound- land, let us put it this way, they have to take $900 a year, $450 per semester,and for a five year progrrunme, that means that they will only owe $4,500 when they complete university. MR. ROWE: Will the minister permit a question? MR. HOUSE: Yes. ' MR. ROWE: This is a quote coming from the Secretary of State,I understand, is it? MR. HOUSE: Yes. I may not have paraphrased him right but I - MR. ROw"'E: If it did, I am horrified at that kind of a statement in view of the fact that a tremendous number of our university graduates cannot even find jobs~let alone high paying jobs.

And I c·lill concede, ::fr, c:1air.nan, tt:at doctors and lawyers and dentists and conMerce students an~ engineers

May 17, 1977, Tape 2826, Page 1 -- apb ~1R. ROvJE: could conceiv~bly be in high paying jobs, but certainly art students, and many categories of graduates from the universit~ certainly do not go into high paying jobs. And in view of the fact that we have an awful lot of unemployed university graduates, not only in Newfoundland but throughout Canada, I find that statement quite amazing. I just hope that the minister is not quoting the Secretary of State accurately, because I find it incomprehensible that such a statement would be made. MR. HOUSE: I did not quote - MR. NEARY: Mr. Chaiman, on a point of order.

We are dealing with one of the biggest spending departments of government. There are only four people on the govern_rnent side of the House, Sir. I believe ~ve should have a quor~ call for the sake of the minister who is trying to make a sincere presentation. MR: !1URP HY : Five of us. MR. NEARY: Five of them. I did not see the hon. member. MR. HURPHY: The worst

part is there is only five of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Hell, we are here. It is only right and proper, Sir, for the minister's sake. MR. C.HAIRHAN: Order, please! Before He caL'have a quorum call I have to rise the Coromittee and report to the Speaker. HR. NEARY: I am not trying to delay the Committee, Sir. I am just trying, for the minister's sake, trying to get a quorum, trying to get a few members in on his own side to hear what the minister is saying. i·IR. SPEAXER: 1·1R. CHAI R.""W·1 : Order, please! I have been informed, Sir, that there ~·,ras not a quorum present during Committee. MR. SPEAKER: \·Je shall nmv have a quon.11-n call. There is a quor~~ present.

May 17, 1977, Tape 2826, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the \'7hole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. HR. CHAIID1AN : Education. Order, please! The hon. the ~inister of MR. HOUSE: I was responding to the hon. the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde at the tL~e on the Secretary of State's attitude. That was the gist of his speech to us, and his paper to us. So the students are not - let me put it this way; the students feel that they have a very good programme.

There are some changes they would like to see made, and changes that we are working on, changes that we can effect our­ selves, and there are changes that they are hoping we will take to the Secretary of State's Department ~vho administers the Student Aid Progra~e. The other one, the Student Appeal Board, for the hon. the member for LaPoile, the students clain, of course, that it is -loaded against them. We have a brief from these people and one of the things that they are requesting is that the Appeals Officer not be a member of the board.

The Appeals Officer is not a m~~ber of the board de facto, he presents the case for the board. The student is supposed to present his case or her case, and the Appeals Officer presents his own case. That is being looked into and we thing that there will be changes that will ramedy this - HR. NEARY: Badly needed. Badly needed. MR. HOUSE: Yes. There will be changes made to ra~edy this situation, perhaps more in personnel

May 17, 1977. Tape 2827 RH - 1 MR. HOUSE: than anything else. MR. NEARY: for them? MR. HOUSE: What about the French islands? Are you doing the same We had two programmes in St. Pierre and Miquelon. One is a private thing where we give bursaries to students going down there, for high school students. MR. NEARY: No, these are university students. MR. HOUSE: The other one, the university students, there is an $80,000 grant given to the university by the Secretary of State to run a programme there. There are about thirty students, I think. And there is another $100,000 given this year to refurbish their premises. MR.

NEARY: Is it free for the students? MR. HOUSE: Well it is under university regulations. They still pay their regular tuitions. HR. NEARY: Their transportation and everything is all paid down there? MR. HOUSE: Yes, I understand that is so. But that is internal. But I understand that it is the same as if they were at Memorial University. I am not certain on that. MR. SM..<\LLWOOD: Would the minister say if St. Pierre French is good French? MR. HOUSE: It is suppose to be pretty well the best, you know - MR. SMALLWOOD: Is French French? MR. HOUSE: Parisian French. MR. NEARY: Would the minister permit a question?

On what basis are the students selected for these courses on the islands of St. Pierre and Miquelon? MR. HOUSE: I would imagine it is special interest. It would be of special interest. But usually we have more bursaries and more opportunity to take advantage of French training than we can get students to take advantage of it, usually. I do not have a specific answer though to your

May 17, 1977. Tape 2827 RH- 2 MR. HOUSE: question. I know it is not specific but - MR. NEARY: Would these be students who are going to make a career in this sort of thing? MR. HOUSE: MR. NEARY: MR. HOUSE: ~~inly of students majoring in French. Majoring in French. Right. MR. LUSH: Not directly related to this, but just a question, not directly related to this but indirectly. Does the Federal Government still carry on, it used to be called their French monitoring programme for students. I just forget exactly what it is called,but the minister knows what I am talking on. MR. HOUSE: Yes. Mr.

Chairman, that is in another subhead. There is a full page on a subhead here somewhere on French and it is over $1 million . expenditure there. MR. LUSH: Okay, that is all right, yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Chairman, I listened with interest to ~e minister's comments on student aid. And I was hoping that I would not have to say anything, that the minister might mention student aid as far as the West Coast Regional College is concerned.

I have experienced a number of problems this past year with students from my district who attend the West Coast Regional College at Corner Brook and who run into particular problems with student aid. And I think most of those problems are probably related to bureaucracy because the appeals board and so on is in here in St. John's and those people are out there on the West Coast. I am wondering if the minister has anything in mind to overcome the particular problems related to those students who are attending the West Coast Regional College.

Maybe it would be worthwhile for two or three weeks in the first part of the semester to have a student aid appeals .officer stationed out in Corner Brook so that he can take care of the particular problem that those students are facing right there on the scene. For the minister's information

May 17, 1977. Tape 2827 R...tt - 3 MR.

RIDEOUT: and just to illustrate to him that there are grave problems experienced by students in the \-lest Coast Regional College, I know of a particular case of a student from my district who went through the appeal process in the first semester last year and was turned dow~ all the way, who the college could not, under regulations, accept in the second semester after Christmas because the bills had not been paid for the first one, on whose behalf I went down to the student appeal people down here and found that there was a ~vhole lot of bologna in the application that the student aid division had dug up on the income of his father.

For example, his father ran a little business and the gross income of the business was taken in, not the salary expense and the stock expenses and all this kind of stuff to get down to what the father actually made,which was less than a lot of us makes. The business was not very profitable. And on that basis that student actually was given his ticket and sent out of the West Coast Regional College in Corner Brook. Fortunately I was able to get the thing straightened out. But that is one particular case. I think it is wrong.

I hope the minister could insure that early in the semester a student appeals officer travels from St. John's out to the \vest Coast. I do not know if there is work enough there to appoint a student appeals officer or a student aid officer out there. Maybe there is not. But certainly we should insure that early in the semester, in each semester, that there is an officer sent out there so that those types of diacrepencies are not allowed to ~appen and that students are actually barred from attending the

May 17, 1977 Tape 2828 JM - 1 MR. RIDEOUT: college through no fault of their own. MR. CHAI&~~(YOu~G): The han. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Chairman, as I have mentioned earlier we have had meetings with the student aid. There is a committee on student aid at the university and Dr. Eaton is the faculty member who is heading it up~and then a fellow,Jim Payne~is the representative from the student body. One of the problems raised again was the Corner Brook campus,and of course these are some of the growing pains with a dual campus in Newfoundland, one on the West Coast and one on the East.

One of the real problems is the fact that all the applications going through Corner Brook had to be processed here in St. John's. You know,there was one application.and what they are doing -they think they can overcome that this year by having an application form specifically for the Corner Brook Junior College and have it processed there. Now there is not a job out there with the limited number of students that the college takes for an appeals officer. That will be done here but it will be - MR. RIDEOUT: You could probably send one out. MR. HOUSE: Yes, that is right.

There will be some arrangement made to accomodate the problem you are talking about. The other one that you spoke about, the income of the parents, that one did create a lot of problems this year. It was the first year that it was demanded,and it was demanded by Federal Government regulations of course. But we have a lot of people in Newfoundland who have small businesses,as you mentioned, who are not incorporated,who do not take a salary out of the business,and I ran into half a dozen of these and it took some time to get them straightened out. But we did get them straightened out after a time.

There is another problem of course with this student aid and that is the university policy also. A student is not~for instance, accepted fully until after a certain length of time. I do not know, ~erhaps it is four or five weeks,I am not sure-and we cannot process

May 17, 1977 Tape 2828 JM- 2 MR. HOUSE: the applications until after we know that the students are registered as full-time students. That creates a problem and we a'!"e trvine to ~•ark on that also. I might say that students presented a tremendous brief and were very ~ensible about it and I think we are going to be able to accommodate a lot of the problems that they are running into.in that sort of thing. MR. CHAIRMAN (YOUNG) : The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, while we are on the subject of the regional college here, could the minister tell us QOW how many students are at the regional college in Corner Brook and how many are getting student aid? How they cover their expenses if they board in, for instance if they live in residencesat the regional college, how do they pay for their board and lodgings? Do they have to pay for this out of their own pocket? Is this taken of in their student aid by the university or by the department? And what sort of track record does the regional college have? Is it good or bad? I understand - MR. HOUSE: Excellent. MR.

NEARY: The han. gentleman says excellent~but I hear stories to the contrary~that they have a large number of dropouts~and that the students could very easily learn in high school or in grade twelve~ if we had it in the schools in this Province, could learn exactly the same thing as they are learning at the regional college. And I am wondering about this extravagant albatross that we have around the necks of the taxpayers in this Province, if it is worth the effort or not.

My han. friend is looking at it probably more out of loyalty and patriotism for his district and for Corner Brook but, Sir, could the minister give us a rundown on it? Is it true that there is a large number of dropouts? Kids who did not make it in Mathematics or English or language go in there for upgrading that they could verJ easily have gotten in the high school or in grade twelve~and they go in there for a short while and they are discouraged and they drop out. What is the track record now in connection with the regional college? We do not seem to hear much about it and we do not know very much about it.

Could the minister give us a report on what is happening there?

May 17, 1977 Tape 2828 JM- 3 MR. ROUSE: Mr. Chairman, the Western Regional Junior College is operated by the university and of course we do not have the statistics about the dropout rate. But first of all~the students·where they stay in the university, they stay in residences. It depends on whether they qualify for student aid or not. If they qualify for student aid of course they pay their room and board out of that. If they do not qualify for student aid,and the parents are deemed wealthy enough to pay their room and board\ th~y pay it themselves.

That is the answer to the first one, just the same as they would here on this particular campus. The number of dropouts - Of course the other thing is that the university there is offering the same first year

May 17, 1977 Tape 2829 JM- 1 MR. HOUSE: prqgrammes, first year university programmes,and it is coming up the next year there will " be second year programmes. I am sorry, there have been · first and second year programmes carrie d on no-.;.7, and of course this year the pupils will be transferring from the Western college into the Memorial to do third year. I was out to the first graduation a couple of weeks ago. It was very impressive,and I got the impression from the students and from the faculty there,and of course I guess they would be biased,that everything is operated very well.

New I do not know - the han. member just mentioned they took students in for upgrading~ I do not know to what extent that was done. It was originally intended to have a grade twelve~or a first year programme~or a continuation of high school programme for students for instance from the smaller schools who did not get a good grade eleven, MR. NEARY: Yes, but the minister knows we do not need a regional college for that. We can do that in the high schools. I mean why waste millions of dollars making Wes Andrews wealthy when we could do it in the high schools. MR.

HOUSE: What we are saying is some of these pupils are in remote communities,and we thought originally that if they could come to a larger centre to do an extended high school programme under the auspicies of the junior college it would help them certa i nly in their future education. But I do not have any figures of what the dropout rate was but all that I have heard about it, it has been a tremendous success. MR. NEARY: Well you would,.not expect the bureaucre.ts to say anything else,would you? On motion, 603-01 to 603-03-06, carried. MR. CHAIR..""iAN: Shall 603-04 carry? ~. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Chairman, 603-04 - MUN tuition and allowances. I notice there is an increase there. Now what is the minister expecting here~that there is going to be an increase in student enrollment at the university .. 'lis year to account for the increase in tuition allowances

May 17' 1977 Tape 2829 JM- 2 MR. ROWE: that is budgeted here? It is increased from $5~230,000 to $5,440,000. Is the university or the minister projecting or expecting an increase in student enrollment? I would assume that is what this is in there for and if so, in view of the statistics for the last few years,on what basis are they projecting such an increase? MR. HOUSE: The above figures are based on the assumption that the projected enrollment at Memorial will be increased by between one and two hundred students.

Of course we are assuming that the formula,$450.00 per semester~will remain the same but that is just that - we are assuming that increased enrollment because university has become a little more accessible by virtue of the fact of the West Coast Regional College. So we are anticipating that amount of another hundred to two hundred. On motion, 603-04, carried. MR. CHAIR...'fAN: Shall 604-01, carry? MR. ROWE: Just one quick question just out of idle curiosity, Mr. Chairman. Could the minister indicate what has happened to the Provincewide educational tv system that was indicated in the Throne Speech debate in 1972?

MR. HOUSE: Mr. Chairman, I do not know if it would come under school supplies now or not. We are not anticipating any provincial tv programmes in the schools. I do not know what will happen when we get the cable television. That will be a matter to be discussed at that time. It will have to depend on costs then~I would submit. MR. CHAIPMAN: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, could the minister now bring us up-to-date on some kind of a weird deal that was made with Atlantic Films back

Hay 17, 1977 Tape 2830 LB-1. ~R.NEARY: I believe it ~vas in the mid 1960's whereby the government entered into some kind of a loan deal with that outfit. In return they were supposed to do so many films for the Department of Education that were going to be put in the libna~y in the minister's department. There has always been some question about ~•hether or not they have been fulfilling their agreement. Could the minister give a pro~ress report on this deal with - I think it was Atlantic Films,was it not? Atlantic Films? Atlantic Films~ AN .HON .ME:t-!BER: (inaudible) ~.NE~~Y: I beg your pardon.

Have all the terms of the agreement been met and have they repayed the government in coin~I think it was. They were given a loan to set up this Atlantic Films thing to buy the equipment if they needed it. In return they were supposed to- I -believe originally they were supposed to pay off the loani which they Then it became a pretty dicey situation. They were supposed to,instead of paying off the interest and the principle,they were going to give the government so many films, take it up in kind for the library. What ever became of that? Is the thing settled upj Who is in arrears?

Or bring us up to date, tell us Hhat is going on in con~ection with this weird proposal? Hon. ~inister of Education. !1R.HOUSE: Mr. Chairman, I do not have the details of that proposal. I will try to get it to answer the han. member some time before the time expires. MR.RIDEOUT: If that is the case then could we have 604 stand over because I would be interested in hearing the information too. !fay be if it is agrEeable we could have 604 stand over and go on with the rest of them. XR..NEARY: We could cover this down 607 if it alright 1-1ith my han. friend.

Perhaps that will give the minister time to get the information. ~1R. HOUSE: Yes. It is in 607. On motion 604 -01 carried.

May 17, 1977 On motion 604-02 -03 carried. 605-03-01 Tape 2830 MR. CHAIIU1A.l\l: Member for Windsor -Buchans;. LB-2. ~IR. FLIGHT: Mr. Chairman, I would presume that it is - the topic will be relevant to the subhead. It is the old question that has been raised in this House on four or five occasions,it is raised throughout the province.I have never yet heard a satisfactory answer from the minister, or from anybody responsible.

And that again is the question, is 'vhy when we are spending $273 million~ jnst short of $274 million on education, why we cannot implement in this province Grade X11 in our regional high schoolsr ~1r. Chairman, the need is becoming greater and greater all the time. We have got into a situation ~.rhere I >vould believe,and the minis::er can confirm,that the average age of a student graduating ~rom Grade Xl is now 16 years old. I contend)lir. Chairman, that 16 years old is too young to send a child, a boy at sixteen or a girl at sL~teen,to university from rural Newfoundland. Hr.

Chairman, the cost, today it:...is costing around $2,500 to $3,000 to send a student to university. That $2,500 some of it can be made up,if \ve want to leave the student in debt 1 as another hon. ma~ber said,for the rest of his life, it can be made up of student aid loans. However there is no way-the parentdis still going to have to come up with an~vhere from $1,200 to $1,500. Now that in itself is discriminatory.

On the mainland'> I \.J'Ould presume pretty \vell ~ominion->..ride ~the regional high schools on the mainland of Canada today are t ·2.ac...l-ling Grade Xl1 and Grade Xlll,and the student enters university with credit for his first year. If \ve had that here,Xr. Chairman ,we would have a situation \·lhere the student cvould be home for another year~ and that is one of the most crucial years that year. Here we are in Newfoundland ~ and I submit to the minister, Sir, that i..re have the facilities ,

May 17, 1977 Tape no. 2831 Page 1 - ms MR. FLIGHT: the regional high schools in this Province are capable of nroviding the space for Grade XII . \qe have the qualified staff. In our regional high schools right now there is not a teacher ~.vho is not degreed; in most cases, Masters Degrees and Doctors ~egrees. Hr. Chairman, it is nothing short of an injustice, and it has not been answered, why is it that we cannot implement a programme now, a Grade XII programme? And another thing we say is it does could be mark down the cost but, ~rr.

Chairman, it is also a fact whether we like to admit it or not that a lot of our tiniversity students are dropping out after one year or two years. So in funding the University, we have to make the funds available. We just saw there where you have increased the grant for the university by $200,000 because you anticipate a h"igher enrollment. Out of that enrollment - I do not know >•hat the percentage is, t!aybe the minister should tell us -will be drop-outs.

Now would it not have been better if those students would have stayed home and taken Grade XII at home rather than have gone to the university and dropped out. Because if they dropped out the chances are that anything they got in university is of no benefit to them anyway

whereas at home they would have had the benefit of getting Grade XII, They would have been in a position to have been under parental control and guidance and more matured. ft~d another reason - it is all coming back, it is all coming full circle, Hr. Chairman - one of the reasons that we are having so many drop-outs is that we are seeing students going into that university younger and younger. They are not matured to the pointt where they go in and accept the responsibilities in university. They come out of a high school system and into the university at sixteen years old. Mr.

Chairman, our :0Te~,;foundland boys and girls are disadvantaged today compared to their mainland counterparts. Now a lot of our students are not going to university. They are not going into the trade schools. And if they were going to go into the trade schools - never mind university - if they were going to go into the trade schools,

May 17, 1977 Tape no. 2831 Page 2 - ms Mr. Flight. they would be a lot more qualified, a lot more able to handle the courses and the responsibilities that they are going to undertake with Grade XII. If they did not go to the trade school at all - and it is getting more and more, it is harder and harder to get entrance into the trades and technology schools, or the vocational schools - if they went directly into the labour force, then they 'tvould be that much more valuable a citizen, they would be that much more prepared to accept anything they would have to accept. And, Hr.

Chairman, I do not see any justification - when I go back -we can go back to the 1950's, in the early 1950's in mainland Canada, the regional high schools taught and had a curriculum for Grade XII. And I would like wnen the minister stands up to explain how we can continue to justify not implementing Grade XII into our curriculum in Newfoundland. Mr.

Chairman, there is nowhere in Newfoundland right now - or I doubt if there is anywhere in Newfoundland, I am not suggesting that we should have Grade XII in every high school in Ne~.;foundland - Jut there is nowhere in Newfoundland today that is more than fifty to sixty miles from a regional high school that has got the facilities and the qualified staff. Now the difference in my son having to come to St. John's from Buchans to attend first year university, as applied to having to go to Grand Falls, would at least mean that he would be home every weekend.

It is possible, if I wanted to make the sacrifice, that he could be home every night. You know, we are busing students for twenty miles. I would prefer to bus a seventeen year old fifty miles than I would bus a five or six or eight or nine year old twenty miles. So, Hr. Chairman, it is time - and I am surprised that 'tve are not getting more people standing up, more members of this House, more members of school boards, more parents standing up and demanding and asking 'tvhy? I.Jhy is it that we are put into the position of having to send our children to university at fifteen and sixteen years old?

And the more we protes ·t the

May 17, 1977 Tape no. 2831 Page 3 - ms Mr. Flight. way we are going, the more younger our graduating students, the more pressure on them wnen they attend university. If they drop out for a year they may not indeed go back. Most parents TN"ant their children to get into university or ge _t their Grade XII immediately,as soon as they finished Grade XI , because they are that much more prepared, they are that much more ready. So, Mr. Chairman, again I would hope that the minister - because this is not the last that we are going to hear on this. The pressure is coming on.

I believe we are short­ changing our young people in this Province today. I believe we are short-changing the parents. We are short-changing the students. We are short-changing ourselves. And again,to make the point of disadvantage, anything that a student, anything, any wav of life that a student decides to make for himself after he continues his high school training - you know, if a student has not got the academic wherewithal to attend university then he is going to go into trade school. Go~ng into trade school, Mr.

Chairman, with Grade XII or Grade XIII, he is going to be a lot more prepared, a lot better to compete. A lot of our students today , Qur young men and women, are joining the Armed Forces. ~ow, Hr .Chairman, the minute that one of our students, one of our young men or women join · the Armed Forces in Newfoundland, he is immediately put at a disadvantage to anyone else joining from across Canada, because they are going in with Grade XII and Grade XIII. Our young men and young women, boys and girls,are going in with Grade XI. Taking all that into consideration, Hr.

Chairman, I believe it is time for this Province with the kind of expenditure He are looking at into Education to start implementing a Grade XII programme. And if we are not going to, if there are no plaTJ.s to, then I "\vould like to hear the minister stand up and tell us why. The han. member for ~rinity - Bay de Percle.

May 17, 1977 Tape 2832 RT-1 MR. ROl-lE: Mr. Chairman, under heading 605, I will just speak once to it unless we can get some more information from the Minister than we have gotten so far. Sir, I must say I am extremely disappointed in the lack of information that the Minister is supplying to this Committee here this morning and, in fact, last night.

I thought after last night that the Minister might bone up, do a bit of homework, get a few of his officials together and get some statistics, and some figures, and some information before him, because my colleagues on this side have asked questions, and we are just not getting answers, Sir, and what answers we are getting are rather contradictory and confusing.

I would just like to make that point, ft~d I am not attacking the Minister personally, but the fact of the matter is that he has not come up with the information that we have been asking, and the Minister should be a little better prepared for his particular estimates. Now, sir, under this heading "Services to School Boards", we have six subs, and I intend to deal with just all of them really in one short speech. Hopefully, the Minis~er will answer and bring forth some information. The first one, sir, is the more questions we asked about School Tax Authorities last night, Mr.

Chairman, the more confusing the whole situation became. The Minister for Rural and Industrial Development, the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan), tried to justify his stand against School Tax Authorities by weaseling his way out of it and attributing a press release to me that was, in fact, attributed to him in error on radio and T.V. The fact of the matter is that the Minister did go to Cabinet and talk about the unfairness of School Tax Authorities in Grand Falls and Exploits Valley area. You would not know but Exploits Valley area and Grand Falls were unique. Does the hen.

Minister, or either Minister, think-- that Grand Falls and the Exploits Valley area - do they think it is the only jurisdiction cvhere school taxes are inequitable or unfair or unjust 7 Well, if they do, sir, they are dead wrong. Dead wrong. '

~ay 17, 1977 Tape no. 2832 Pa~e 2 RT ~ . • FOf·lF. : I point~d out, , and there is a Pr ivate ''ember's bill on the orcler paoer pointing out some of rl:;e reasons ~vhy ~·'e caDing for the abolition of School Tax Authorities . C::i.r, a min:i.ster indicated J.ast nig~t t hat $7 million •·7 as being collected hy the School Tax f.u thorities, an~ left the iooression that we coul d not get that $7 miJlion unless '(.7e had School '!'~"t Authorities , left the impression - ~l Hn~l. ~·~YBF" : ~~. • P.nw""E : Forty-five employees. For ty- five employees.

And he r..dmitte~, s:f.r. that there is an eleven per cent, or an eleven and one-half per cent a~inistration CO~t. Tn Other worcs, in collecting that S7 million, t•1r . Chairman, it costs, in administr2 .tive costs - it cos t s School Tax Authorities $770,000 - almost a million rlollars -well, $80n,0no. It cook 45 people to adMinist er S~~oo] Tax ~utho rit ies throughout chjs Province . ~ir, that same a~ount of ~oney and more can be rai8ed by r.he Covern~ent i t seJf .

It can be ~one , ?asec on a person's ahility t o pay, na~ely th~ pe rsonal incowe tax, and t~e Government - the hon. members opposite can rant and roar ahout the npposition calling for inc ~eases of oersonaJ income tax, or retail tax, or to bacco tax, or any kind of a tax. The fact of the matter is, a tax is a tax whether it is admin i stered by this Government, or by School Tax Autho r i t ies , ..

May 17' 1977 Tape No. 2833 EC - 1 MP. • R01i7E : or by municipalities. The only difference is that this government does not have the intestinal fortitude to collect this money for educational purposes t~emselves. They are reneging on their responsi­ bility in raising money for educational purposes, and they are pushing it at dedicated people who are serving on these School Tax Authorities. ~1R. ~ORGAN: One-tenth of the (inaudible). MR.

Rm.ffi: I am not going - that is where the - I do not have the Civil Service that the ~inister of Finance has, that the ~inister of Education has, that the gover~~ent has, and I cannot give the details to this Committee, Sir, about how you \vould go about adjusting the income tax, retail tax, sales tax, or tobacco tax and liquor tax, or any other kind of tax. All I am saying is this is that the government can collect that money at reduced cost to the t~ayers by eliminating School Tax Authorities. And the minister mentioned 11 ner cent· administration. I would submit, ~r.

Chairman, to this Committee, that the minister, in that 11 per cent, did not count the money that goes to collection agencies, in order to collect - HR. LUSH: ~'!R. Rm.TE: ~~. LUSH The 11 per cent is for administration. It is for pure administration of School Tax Authorities"? I have made some enquiry about that when I was in it and I found out that for collection of fees and arrears. was 14 per cent. ~1R. RmVE: ?as 14 per cent? ~. LUSH: Yes. ~AR • RO\·JE : Three years ago, Sir, when I conducted some research, I had the figure around 15 per cent.

Km.:r the minister, for some mysterious reason, has it down to 11 per cent, and I Hould submit, Sir, that Hhen you add un the notices that are going to widows, old age nensioners in error, people on Social Services, people who should not ~e included for purposes of paying school taxes or assessments, the Court costs involved, la~vyers' fees, travel back and forth to the Courts,' phone calls trying to collect this money, _. tha!:. the true administrative cost, I would submit, Sir, is in the order of 25 per cent. Sa ·for every SlOO that the government is collecting, they have to pay out S25.

So they are getting 75 per cent. Look, the Yinister of Justice can say that I am not right, or it is ~rrong, or it is untrue. .'3ut I am certainly not telling a lie. I am saying wnat I believe in, the same as the minister is saying what he believes in, and I am saying the minister is inaccurate 1

~fay 17, 1977 Tape ~o. 2833 EC - 2 MR. RQltTE: he is incorrect, he is not telling the truth. But it does not mean that he is deliberately lying. And I am saying that this money can be collected by this Administration, if they had the guts to do so, and accent the responsibilitY , ~o do so instead of having the people of this Province on the backs of School Tax Authorities. MR. LUSH: Manipulating the statistics, HR. RQt.TE: ~1anipulating the statistics. Look, ~r. Chairman, I have talked about this before, ~r.

Chairman, for four years, and it is obvious that the goverru:J.ent are not going to change their mind, A fe\iT glimmers of hop~ are starting to show through now, by at least one backbencher and one cabinet minister who have indicated their disagreement with the School Tax Aut~orities con­ cent. Now, ~lfr. Chairman, the minister, last night, did not ans-.;.rer the question as it relates to student/teacher ratios, I have specifically put it to the minister to ~ive the reasonswhy the third phase of the student/teacher ratio has not been brought in. (Inaudible). MR. HICKMAN: ~. Rm-JE: Look, Mr.

Chairman, the ~tinister of Justice has the s2rne opportunity as any other member of this Committee to stand and make a point r- if he wishes, instead of sniping from his seat there in his usual T-anner, trying to distract - ;1-fR. ROHE: You asked the question, and I lvant to !3ive - Hell, I am asking, Yr.Chairman - the question is being put to the Minister of Education.

And if the ~'finis ter of Education is incapable or unable to ansuer the question, I >vould submit that probably the ~inister of Justice might go dow~ and consult with and advise the ~ 1inister of Education if he feels that the answers lvould be HR. ~1EARY: The m~~ber for St. John's South-or St. John's Centre is ~oing to kiss hi.~ there nm.,r I believe. Unlikely bedfellows. .·

May 17, 1977 Tape No. 2834 __ LB :- 1 ~1R. RO'WE: !'fr. Chairman, last night I mentioned - any chance of some order ~r. Chairman, it is difficult enough as it is. ~·fP . • C HA I R'~~~T : Ron. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. Thank you, ~r. Chairman. Last night, Sir, I indicated to the ~1inister of Education that there e.re hundreds of teachers on the unemployment insurance payroll. There are 157,000 students in this province which is far in excess - ~- rR. ~ITJR.PHY: How many? Nffi.. ROWE: :"R .• MUP.PHY: ~'ffi.. R.OHE: rvas 157,000. - 157,000 students. I thought there were over 180,000.

I thought it was 186,000, but the minister corrected me and said it So let us say some-.;.;here between 157, 000 and 186, 000. Whatever figure we use - !"fR. HOUSE: Could I strai ghten this out? ~. RO\•JE: Sure. :'-~. HOT!SE: I said there was 157,000 in t:Jri:nary, elementary and hip,h school, and 17,000 in post secondary education. That added up to 185,000 or 186,000. '~. ROWE: Right. I thank the minister for his explanation, Sir.

And it does not deviate froM the point that I wish to make and that is that is the highest numher of students per capita 'of any Province in Canada. !'Tow when you take these tvm factors together, the number of teachers on the unemployment insurance roles and the fact that \-Je have these great number of students, I ~.;auld submit that it is high tine, this is the right time to bring in the third ohase of the student-teacher ratio. :'irm.; I know that it is going to cost a few cents to emnloy additional teachers, a few dollars, a fe\<7 million dollars Dossibly, but let us look at the thing realistically.

If teachers are on the unemployment insurance rolls or receiving benefits, the money is coMing from the unemplovment insurance cornnission !'lay come under federal jurisdiction, ~<Then the federal­ govern.>::lent collects noney, you might say federally but they collect it from this T:Jrovince, they collect it fran this province as '>Tell as everv other nrovince. So the money is still coming cut of these teachers out of the taxpayers pockets.

May 17, 1977 Tape 2834 LB-2. MR. RO\-ffi: 1Je do have educators ~vho have expressed some concern and anxiety over the quality of education in this province. The minister, I ~vould not say misquoted me last night, but indicated something to the effect that I had c~a.rged the administra~ion with reducing the quality of education in this province. If I said that,Sir, I retract it. If I implied it,I retract it.

If I gave that impression, I certainly did not mean to give that impression because there is no doubt about the fact that no matter what the administration that we have in this province,year by year we are seeing an increase in the quality of education in this province. Bnt educators are extremely concerned about the rate of increase of quality of education in this province. The rate of increase, because of the fact that 'lve have had insufficient operating grants, insufficient capital grants to the school boards.

The educators, the c~airman of the federatiQn of school boards and other leadin£ educators have expressed extreme a~~iety over what is likely to happen to the quality of education in this province.

I would submit that if ~.Ye do not have the money £or the building of grandiose buildings, not necessary directly correlated with the quality of education , if we do not have the money for certain operating expenses and certain capital expenditures,then I think money for the rehiring or the hiring of these unemployed teachers would go a long way towards improving the quality of education in this province, a long ,long ways, and I would invite the minister. and ask the minister to reconsider the possibility& Infact,the minister said in this very House Sir, not in committee stage, but in this very House, something to the effect that bringing in the third phase of the student-teacher ratio would not make that much difference to the unemployment rate anJ"'YaY, so that would indicate that there would not be that great number of additional teachers added to the payroll.,~.Yhich is a huge s:.:m of money, ~13Sl million. \lliat a hefty slice out of the education budget!

May 17, 1977 Tape 2834 MR. ROWE: That is part of the problem with the educational budget io this province, so much of it is going out to paying teachers. That is the r~ture of the animal, something we tnll never be ~ble t o get a~ay f r om, i t is as simple as that. But if there are only a fe\v tead1ers that are required to bring in the third phase of the student-teacher ratio,and educato~s are insisting that this would greatly increase the quality of edcuation LB- 3.

May 17, 1977, Tape 2835, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROWE: in this Province, I would submit that the minister should give serious consideration to bringing in the third phase of the student-teacher ratio. Now, Sir, I have mentioned there is no sense, Mr. Chairman, in my getting into operating and capital grants. I think the minister has justified himself in saying that they just cannot find any more money for operating and capital grants. The winister has adequately explained that.

The only two comments I can make about that is that this is a direct result of five and a half years of fiscal blundering and bungling on the part of this administration, and question the force with ~vhich the minister defended his educational estimates before the Cabinet, and thence to Treasury Board. These are the only two comments. I can only accept the minister's word that you have to share equally and fairly among the various depar~~ents. We are in a period of restraint and this is all we can come up with this year. I will have to accept that for this year, but I will have to remind the Committee, Hr.

Chairman, that this is the direct result of fiscal mismanagement on the part of this administration. MR. ROUSSEAU: too. MR. ROWE: NR. ROUSSEA,U: battle. ~<lR • Rm'7E : He put up one hell of a battle, Who is keeping up? I said he put up a hell of a Well perhaps the minister is _ kicking up a hell of a battle,as the minister indicates, but, Sir, from what "'''e have seen in this Comrni ttee stage, when various colleagues on this side of the House put questions to the Minister of E&l"ation, he does not have the information, he does not know, he is not sure.

Hhen we ask specific - we are only getting into generalities

May 17, 1977, Tape 2835, Page 2 - - apb MR. ROvJE: because of the time limitation on the estimates, seventy-five miserable hours. If we had unlimited time we could get down to the details, and the minister would really look sick. ~qe are in, more or less, generalities now and the minister cannot answer these generalities. What would the minister do if specific questions were put to him? MR. HOUSE: What generalities? ~'lhat specifics have you asked this norning? MR. ROWE: Well, my colleague from - I did not note them all down. All that sprung _ in my mind is that when the hon. the member for LaPoile (Hr.

Neary) asked questions, and when the member for - you spoke and asked specifics this morning - my colleague from Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout) asked questions, the standard reply was that,I will try to get the information, or I do not have the information readily available, or something along these lines. That was the general answer. Now I did not keep score over here. MR. HOUSE: One question. MR.

R01dE: I did not keep score over - I think my colleague will support me when I submit that the hon. gentleman did not answer the majority of the questions with any accuracy this morning, during this Committee stage. Now, Mr. Chairman, I would like to give some of my other colleagues an opportunity to speak on this particular Heading, or the minister an opportunity to answer. The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Co~~unications. MR. MORGAN : Mr. Chairman, I am not going to delay the House too long on these estimates, but I think, ~1r. Chairman, that a fe•.v words are ~varranted.

First of all,I would like to compliment my colleague,

May 17, 1977, Tape 2835, Page 3 -- apb MR. ~!ORGAN: the Hinister of Education, for bringing to the department the vast background knowledge of education throughout the Province, in his field, prior to becoming involved in politics. He are fortunate to have a man,heading up the Education Depar~~ent, of that calibre. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman who just sat down and then left the House, I think maybe he is predicting what I am going to say and he left the House for that reason.

It is really amazing, when you look at the hon. gentleman and his colleagues talking so much about school taxes. There has been more debate in this estimate Heading along the lines of school taxes than any other issue. Last night in the House I heard the hon. gentleman from Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout), the hon. gentleman from Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan), the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Last night as well, the hon. gentleman for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe), and again this morning the hon. gentleman from Trinity - Bay de Verde. Mr. Chairman, a question was asked,more or less in a casual

May 17, 1977 Tape no. 2836 Page 1 - ms MR. HORGAN. way across the House to the last speaker, wnat would be your alternative to abolishing the existing School Tax Authorities as they exist throughout the Province? And the ~nswer was, He did not have any alternatives. He merely wanted to see the school taxes abolished. And a point has been put forward quite strongly that there is a tremendous cost in collecting these school 'taxes. The hon. members of the Oppposition say, it is fourteen per cent in administration costs of School Tax Authorities. My hon. colleague says, eleven per cent. Well, Mr.

Chairman, administration costs almost automatically tie into the cost of collecting these fees. And I would say that the greatest disservice done to this Province with regards to education has been done in the last few debates in the House of Assembly on this estimate by the hon. gentlemen from the Opposition. And it was done during the last election campaign.

And I can realize the frustrations of the hon. gentlemen who got elected in their respective districts on the premise and on a promise to people that they were going to do ~NO things: The big campaign issue was, We are going to abolish school taxes in the Province, and we are going to bring back mothers' allowances. And now, Mr. Chairman, they find themselves elected, in some cases re-elected, and the people who elected them are saying, You promised us during the last election campaign that you were going to abolish school taxes, you promised that you were going to bring back mothers 1 allowances.

They do not realize, ar. Chairman - cvhen I say, 'they~ the people , that because they are in Opposition, although they are members of the House of Assembly, they have not got the power to make the necessary changes. But the promise '"as made, Mr. Chairman, by these same gentlemen who now stand and do the greatest disservice - SOME HON. HEM:BERS: Oh, oh! ~ffi. CHAIRMJu~: Order, please! ~. MORGA.'!: - who do the greatest disservice - SOME RON. ME~·ffiER S : Oh, oh!

May 17, 1977 Tape no. 2836 Page 2 - ms MR.. CHAIR¥...&'1 : Order, please~ XR. HORGAN: Mr. Chairman, they do the greatest disservice to every school board in this Province which has finanacial difficulties, because the present system of collecting monies to pay for education is through School ~ax Authorities. And until the government of the day, whether this party or some other party, changes that system, the only system right now is through School Tax Authorities.

And it is a great disservice to the educators, to the school boards and to School Tax Authorities around the Province to stand up in the House and say, Abolish school taxes; we do not believe in school taxes. 1-Jhat in essence they are saing is do not pay your taxes. Do not pay your taxes. MR. NEARY: You are making an ass of -yourself. MR. MORGAN: In essence you are s2ying it. And then on the other hand they get up and complain and say, Oh, it costs so much to go out.

We have got to get collection agencies, etc., involved t.n collect the fees, got to involve collection agencies and other agencies to collect the money. At the same time - MR. NEARY: ~. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: \-lould the han. member permit a question? Sure. When the han. gentleman first ran in politics for the Tory Party, did not the han. gentleman promise the people in Bonavista South that if he -v;as elected . he would abolished School Tax Authorities? MR.. MORGAN: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. NEARY: Oh, yes. SOME RON. ME}ffiERS: Oh, oh~ MR.. CHAIRMAN: Order, please~ HR.. MO RG&'T : No.

I say to the han. gentleman that if I ran in an election, I made no promises, none whatsoever. I stand _. on that record today in the House of Assembly. There was never a promise

May 17, 1977 Tape no. 2836 Page 3 - ms MR. MORGAN. made by this gentleman in any election campaign. But the last election, it was not a policy of one individual member, it was a policy of the Liberal Party to abolish, school taxes. And they have the gall, the nerve, to stand up in the House of Assembly and say, Well, look, we believe in abolishing school taxes, but we cannot recommend, Mr. Chairman - MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) . MR. MORGAN: If the hon. gentleman from Exploits (Dr. Twomey) could keep his yap shut - MR. CHAIW~: Order, please: Order, please!

I would ask han. members if they ~vant to interrupt the speaker, they must rise on a point . of order. MR. HICK~~= The han. gentleman for Exploits (Dr. ~Nomey) is as quiet as a mouse. MR. MORGAN: I am sorry - the hen. gentleman for Windsor- Buchans (Mr. Flight). MR. FLIGHT: MR.. CBAIR.!.¥..AN: MR. MORGAN: I apologise to the hon. gentleman for Exploits. He made more sense than you are making. Order, please! Mr. Chairman, if I could be given the same courtesy as I gave the han. gentlemen from the other side -I listened to what they had to say. I did not even interrupt one of the speakers.

What I am saying is that the present educational system today is financed primarily, the operations, etc. through the taxes collected by School Tax Authorities. And I am saying it is a great disservice to the educational system we now have in the Province for any member of the Opposition to stand up and say, I do not believe in these taxes; the people should not pay these taxes; they should be abolished. Unless on the other hand - and I think only one speaker has done this to date, the hon. gentleman for Conception Bay South (~r.

Nolan) - they put forward alternate suggestions as to what this administration should do to find means of paying for education. But the bon. gentleman fo·r Trinity - Bay de Verde

May 17, 1977 Tape no. 2837 Page 1 - ms Mr. Morgan. when I questioned him a few minutes ago, he did not care how they found the money, just abolish the school taxes. MR. ROHE: On a point of order. MR. CHAIR¥ft~: Order, please~ A point of order has been raised. MR. Rm.vE: The hon. gentleman, Mr. Chairman, for quite some time now - and I did net know whether it was worth raising a point of order or not - but the minister is misquoting me absolutely and completely.

Now to explain to the hon. gentleman: I said that the alternative to the abolition of School Tax Authorities would obviously mean an increase in some form of provincial tax, and more importantly related to the ability to pay, and I referred specifically to the personal income ta~ of this Province, And I said that probably adjustments would have to be made possiblv in tohacco, liquor and/or retail sales tax. And I said I cannot go into the specifics because I do not have a great civil service force behind me to advise me. Now I did indicate and I had the guts to do so in front of this Committee - MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Chairman - MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, I am not finished my point of order yet. MR. MORG&~: State your point of order. MR. ROWE: - I had the guts, '"hich this administration does not have guts, to say that 've would be fa.;r to th 1 f h · p ~ e peop e o t ~s rovince, and we would take it as our respons.;b.;l.;ty t · ~ ~ ~ o lncrease taxes if these taxes are fair. MR. MORGAN: State your point of