Manitoba Hansard — 14 June 1994 (Sitting 47, 35th Legislature, 5th Session)

35-5-47

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Sess ion • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the t1utlwrity of The Honourtlble Denis C. Roct1n Spe tllc er Vol. XLUI No. 47 • 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, June 14, 1994 JSSN 0542-5492

NAME ASHrON, Steve BARRE'IT, Becky CARSTA1RS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Geny, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS,Clif EVANS, Leonud S. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon.

FRIESEN, Jean MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Aft'lliation CONS1TI'UENCY Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste.Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkiik Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley GAUDRY, Neil GllLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli HELWER, Edwud R. IHCKES, George KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MANNES S, Clayton, Hon.

MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Geny McCORMICK, Nonna McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Dooald, Hon. P ALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, DatTen, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry STEP ANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jeny SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Point Douglas The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St.

Johns Ehnwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Osborne Brandoo West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonn et Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Rossmere K.irkfield Patk FlinFlon La Verendrye Fort Garry Swan River PARTY. NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal Liberal NDP PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC Liberal PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP

3497 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, June 14, 1994 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUT1NEPROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Cha irperson of Committees): Mr. Spe aker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions , directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) , that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Housing) : Mr.

Spea ker, I am pleased to table the Suppleme ntary Information for Legislative Review , the 1994-95 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for Manitoba Housing. As well, I am tabling the Annual Report 1992-93 for Housing, the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation and the Manitoba Housing Authority. I am pleased to table both of those at this tim e. Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Supplementary Estimates for Consumer and Corporate Affairs and the Fitness and Sport Directorates.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 215- The Private Vocational Schools Amendment Act Ms. Avis Gray (Crescent wood) : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable member for Inks ter (Mr. Lamoureux), that leave be given to introduce Bill 215, The Private Vocational Schools Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les �oles prof essionnelles priv�es. and that the same now be received and read a first time. Motion presented. Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker, very brie fly, we are aware that The Private Vocational Schools Act regulates private vocational schools , but we also know that individual contracts between the schools and government departments and agencies are not monitored. This amendment act would require that schools which provide training have a better accounting to the Department of Educa tion for the fe es that they charge in the provision of their training.

This will ensure that training which is off ered to all Manitobans is of course valu able and cost effecti ve. I would recommend this piece of legislation to all members of the Legislative Assemb ly. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the atte ntion of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the Souris School for ty-five Grade 5 students under the direction of Mr. Glen Wallman and Ms. There sa O'Brien. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Rose).

From the Ra pid City Sc hool, we have twenty-two Grades 7 and 8 students under the direction of Mr. John Warkentin. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mr. Gillesh amm er). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. •

(1335) 3498 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 14, 1994 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Winnipeg Development Agree ment Economic Indicators Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposi tion): Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey). The planning document which I will table for the renewed Wumipeg Development Agreement has a numbe r of ve ry, very dramatic econ omic statements to it.

I will quote: Given the slow economic growth of the Manitoba and Wumipeg economies, job prospects have been bleak for many newcomers, and the city has especially had many difficulties in terms of getting the necessary job skills. It talks about the slow employment growth in Winnipeg as reflected in the high rates of out-migration. As many as 41, 000 people have been part of out-migration from the province of Manitoba in the last five years in terms of when this government has been in office.

Yet, when the go vernment sent out their publ ic relations document, there was very little mention of the economic realities. It is a very antiseptic document dealing with the challenges for the Winnipeg economy and the Manitoba economy. I would like to ask the Deputy Premier, why have they omitted key economic data and the key economic factors that would be part of the public consultation proces s for the renewal of a new Core Area or Wumipeg Development Agreement? Bon. Eric Stefanson (Minis ter of Finance) : Well, again, Mr.

Spea ker, I think everybod y recognizes that over the last several years all of Canada has been struggling with job creation and struggling with unemployment rates and so on. The important point for the Le ader of the Opposition to recognize is that in a relative sense Manitoba is doing quite well when we look at last year's job creation numbers, having the third highest job creation growth in all of Canada, and when we look at the number of full-time jobs created in Manitoba since April and May of last year, approximately 16,000 jobs. Mr.

Speaker, that docum ent that the Leader of the Opposition is referring to is the basis of public consultations that the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mrs. Mcintosh) will be co-chairing with the federal and municipal governments, and it is a part of preparing the discussions. There are many, many economic indicators, many pieces of economic inf onn ation that can be provided and certainly upon request will be provided.

We are more than prepared to always talk about the traditional economic indicators and how Manitoba is faring because, in a relative sense, we are faring very well in Manitoba when it comes to job creation, unemployment rates, the limited number of ban kruptcies and on and on. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, there are less people working today than when the government was sworn in in 1988. Those are the facts. The document talks about the erosion of Manitoba's economy and erosion of Winnipeg's economy. It goes on to talk about the very, very high unemployment rate for aboriginal people.

It talks about the job prospects, which have been blea k for ma ny newc omer s in this city of Winnipeg, and it talks about the fact that the overall unem ployment rate in 1991 for Winnipeg was 8.7 percent. It is well over 10 percent now. This unemployment rate among aboriginal people was an alann ing 30.3 percent. Yet, the document released by the three levels of government has as an ass umption that we will have a program that will be city-wide. Now, we know the majority of aboriginal people in the city of Winn ipeg live in the so-called inner city of the city of Winnipeg.

Why has this government dictated to the public that it will be a city-wide mandate? Why have they excluded key economic factors and key social factors in terms of the public consultation process, so that all of us can be involved in meeting the challenge that obviously is not being met by this government? Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, I will gladly debate eco nomic indi cators with the Leader of the Opposition on any occasion in terms of how Manitoba is faring and particularly how we are faring within Canada. I suggest to him that when

June 14, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3499 he makes suggestions about the job levels in April of 1988 to the job levels in 1994 that he check his facts and be very careful with what he is saying in terms of how jobs are today in Manitoba relative to that particular month. We have had two previous agree ments with two other levels of government, with the City of Winnipe g and with the federal government, that have dealt with a series of initiatives in certain physical parts of the city of Winnipeg.

This one, in many elements, is broadening that to create opportuni ties throughout the city of Wmnipeg for eco nomic opportunitie s, for community opportunitie s and so on, and I gather from the Leader of the Opp osition that he opposes that He opp oses seeing other regions within Winnipeg benefit as well from this agreement, which is something I would think that most Manitobans , most Wmnipeggers would want to see . That is not to suggest that good and worthwhile programs that benefit the core area in Winnipe g, that benefit the aboriginal community-they will be part of any ultimate agree ment.

We are offering opportuni ties for all Winnipeggers to participate in this agreement along with two other levels of government. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, if the minister will care to look at the May statistics that were out last Friday, he will find that we are couect and he is wrong. Public Consultations Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : We have asked , on three or fou r previous occasi ons, through 1991, 1992, 1993 about the issue of public consultations. The government has said repeatedly that those public consultations are just aroun d the comer.

Fmally, last week , we fo und that the public will be consulted for a day and a half, and they will get two weeks notice to be involved in this consultation p rocess, unlike the consultations that went on with the initial Forks agreement , that went on for four months and numbers of public presentatio ns. This is a very limited type of public consultation, with very limited time for the public to get ready. Why has the government waited so long to get ready for public consultations and given the public so little time to get ready to present their positions to the gov ernm ent? •

(1340) Bon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Urban Aff airs): Mr. Speaker, as the member knows, this is a three-level exercise we are going throu gh. There are three levels of government At the same time , the three levels of government have also been working very hard and very co-operatively on the infrastructure program. The infrastru cture program is now up, announced and underw ay. Our attention is now turned to the Winnipeg Development Agreement. Public hearings will be held this month, and contrary to what the Leader of the Opposition is saying , there will not just be a day and a half.

There are also going to be special invitational- An Honourable Member: That is what I said. Mrs. Mcintosh: You are talking about one aspect of the public consultation, one aspect only. You should do your homework. You know, you should never get up and ask a question unless you know the answ er. [inte tjection] H they would like to hear the answ er, I would be pleased to provide it. There is one aspect of the public consultation process which will be the hearing the Leader of the Opposition has refeued to.

There will also be three special groups of people invited in by the three levels of government in different sectors of the city to discuss ideas and options that should be done in terms of community development, labour fo rce development and economic development for the city. CN Rail/CP Rail Merger Communication Strategy Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona) : Mr. Speaker, I have in my hands a copy of the Canadian National Railway Strate gic Communications Plan dated May 24, 1994. In this plan, and I will read from the plan, this communications plan has been prepared at CN's req uest.

It is intended to promote the company 's pro jects fo r renewal and neutralize the

3500 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 14, 1994 campaign launched against the possibility of a merger of the activities between CN and CP Rail. My question is for the Minister of Highways and Transp ortation. Is this minister aware of this document which recommends limiting public debate on the merger and for CN to avoid meeting with various community groups, including the media? Bon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, we well know that CN and CP are in some kind of negoti ation process.

I have told the member that we are doing an analysis of the three prairie provinces to determine the impact What CN is saying in terms of how they are going to conduct the process is inf ormation that the member obviously has that I have not seen yet. Headquarters Mr. Daryl Reid (Transco na): Since the proposed merger would include asse ts from Winnipe g east, including to Chicago, Mr. Speaker, is the Minister of Highways and Transportation aware that NewCo, the name of the new company proposed, could possibly have its headquarters in the United States? Bon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, if CN and CP have any plan that they want to have accepted in Canada, they have to go before the competition bureau in Ottawa, and they have to go before the National Transportation Agency which will hold public hearings, so they have a long process before there are any approvals in Canada It is a process that will not be easy and will give the opportunity for sign ificant public input by provincial governmen ts and citizens at large and anybody who is interested in the issue. That process cannot be avoide d. Government Position Mr.

Daryl Reid (Transco na): Mr. Speaker, this issue is very important to the citizens of Manitoba, not only those who are employed but those who utilize the services. My final question is for the same minister or for his Premier (Mr. Filmon). Why has the minister or the Premier not spoken up or spoken out on the is sue of the mer ger between CN and CP, considering the CN communications plan which also states that a great many communities which owe the basis of their quality of lif e to the railway activity will probably be hard hit by CN's measures to cut costs? •

(1345) Bon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Spe aker, I think the member has not had his hearing aid on because we have been speaking out in this House and other fo rums on the issue that is in front of us. The fed eral government has said the national dream is dead. The federal government has said they are going to eliminate subsidies every which way you look, and the provincial Liberals are supporting them it seems. They seem to be answering for them. We have a lot of questions in front of us. It is not an issue of just saying everything has to stand still.

We want to be in a process of negotiation and consultation with the federal government. At this point in time, the fe deral government has laid out no plan of how they are going to handle the transportation issues in the future. They are just making statements to the press with no plan, no substance to it, and the provincial Liberals seem to be supporting it at this time. That is very unf ortunate. Manitoba Health Services Commission Bond Policy Ms. Avis Gray (Crescen twood): Mr.

Speaker, we were pleased with the decision of the Immigrant and Refugee Appeal Board in regard to the fact that Roxana Gretchen can be reunited with her family here in Canada. What has come to light through the issue is that, in fact, some of the regulations of the Depart ment of Health are definitely out of sync with what goes on in some of the rest of Canada. My question is for the Minister of Health, if he could possibly answ er. When this case first came to light in the department , was the minister's office given a briefmg as to the rea sons behind the

June 14, 1 994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3501 departmen t's decision to insist that there be a bond issue for this family? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Heal th): Mr. Speaker, I join with the honourable member and others in expres sing our ple asure on behalf of the Gretchen family for the outcome that was arrived at before the fe deral Immigration Appeal Board. If you understand the commitment of that fam ily, as I do, and the compassion of that fa mily for the situation it fo und itself in, as I do, then you will understand why I say that.

The decision was the fe deral government's decision to make about the medical admissi bility of Roxana, and the decision was made on compassi onate and humanitarian grounds. I have not yet seen the reasons for the decision given by the Immigration Appeal Board. 1be question, however, of the Gretchen fam ily and their chance now to be united and to be together, placed to one side, does raise issues as the honourable member suggests, raises issues of how the federal government proposes to proceed from this point fo rward in tenns of other children and fa milies who might find themselves in similar circumstances.

Last fal l, for my part, I met repeatedly with the Gretchens and with their lawyer and it was never a question with them. They accepted then their responsibilit y with respect to costs.

It was a question of what ever ybody felt would be neces sary for Roxana's treatment-and I am sorry to be a little bit lengthier with my response, but the federal government is now fa ced, I suggest, with the question of what will be its policy in the future with respect to this matter, because I dare say in this world of ours, there may be milli ons of children in simila r circumstances and compassionate grounds and humanitarian grounds I am sure exist for those people too.

So our policy is not unlike the policy fo llowed in Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island or Ontari�I am sony, it is unlike the policy fol lowed in those provinces, but it is similar to the policies in Saskatchewan and Newfoundland. Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question to the Minister of Health. My question is related to policy of this provincial government and this Department of Health.

Is the minister-because I seem to get from his comments that he is supportive of his department 's poli cy-prepared to look at the policy established through the old Manitoba Healt h Services Commissi on which is some 20-years-old and have that policy reviewed to ensure that future fam ilies do not go through the trauma, the stress and the financial hardship that this particular fa mily has gone through? Is he prepared to undertake that review? Mr. McCrae: Mr.

Speaker, as I understand the situation, the decision made by the Immigration Appeal Board technically and virtually renders Roxana Gretchen medically admissible now. Now, that is a whole diff erent situation. Once a person is medically admissible and so deemed by the fe deral government, our province picks up 100 percent of the costs of the care of that person. That is the same as in other provinces except for Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island or Ontario where they still charge various levels of cost to the fa milies involved in those particular provinces.

So there is basically a diff erent scenario exi sting in each and every province. I am not averse at all to looking at poli cies that have the wrong kind of impact, but as I said last fall when I was discussing this with the Gretchens on a repeated basis , Mr. Speaker, my job in this situation is extremely difficult, because there is a balance to be drawn here between a humanitarian and compassionate approach which I think I want to take at every opportunity I can. On the other hand, Manitobans want to ensur e that health care services are preserved for the people who are resident here as well. Ms.

Gray: I have a final supplementary to the Minister of Health. I think the Minister of Health 's role in this case is very clear, and as the Minister of Health, he has a responsibility to ensure that policies and regulations within his department are in fact current, up to date, and serve the needs of Manitobans.

3502 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 14, 1994 I would again ask the Minister of Health, is he prepared to immediately undertake a review of this particular policy within his department and some of the other regulations within the old MHSC to ensur e that we are reflecting the needs of Manitobans and that we are current with our policy and that the needs of Manitobans are met as in this particular situation? •

(1350) Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, that is exactly the process I was in last fall when dealing so closely with the Gretchen family and their lawyer, reviewing very, very carefully the policy in existence in Manitoba. It becomes an extremely hypothetical situation. The fe deral government on the one hand says this child is medically ina dmissi ble, but if we were to find otherwise, what would you do in Manitoba? It becomes that kind of a hypothetical situation, Mr. Speaker.

We are governed by the decisions made by the Immigration department If someone is fo und to be medically admissi ble , the Manitoba plan registers and looks after all of the costs involv ed. That will be the case for Roxana, and we are pleased for the famil y. There are extremely important national issues at stake here, too. We think the federal government needs to be cognizant of that. In light of shrinking contributions from the federal government over the years, any decision, any review that we would do would have to be done in lock step with the fed eral government.

We have been doing that with our own immigration department , Citizenship department, our Family Services department, my department and the federal government, too, Mr. Speaker. Manitoba Health Services Commission Bond Policy Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, we are also very pleased about the decision regarding the Gretchen fam ily.

When we asked this question five times last session, and in the two letters that I wrote to the minister on this particular issue, the minister did, in some of his responses, and the fo rmer minister, what the minister is doing tod ay-federal government responsibility and trying to offioad it and go back and fo rth. At issue was a situation where the provincial government was imposing a policy and then throwing it and saying it is not our responsibility. This child and this fam ily had to go through a year of turmoil trying to resolve it, and they had to go to court to try to resolve the issue.

That is not the best way to resolve these issues. My question for the minister is: Why could the minister not resolve the issue without the family having to spend a year, go to court and all the legal costs when there were alternatives that could have been imposed in this situation? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, when this matter was so very current last fa ll, indeed I made it very clear that I was not sloughing this off to the fe deral government. Neither am I doing that today .

I accepted my responsibility as a provincial Minister of Health working with the federal government and working with the Gretchen famil y. So it is not a que stion of of fl oading responsibil ity. I refuse to do that. The question at the time, given the fam ily 's acceptance of the principle that it was their responsibility to pay for the costs, given that acce ptance on their part, the issue became what is the right thing to do in these circumstances. The child had been ruled medic ally inadmi ssible by the fed eral Immigration department Now the fe deral Imm igration Ap peal Boa rd has ruled otherwi se.

That is their ruling to make , Mr. Spe aker. Our gover nment will respond in appropriate fashion to that ruling and respect it. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, will the minister undertake to go back to his department and examine every single process and every step of the way, because there were mistakes made, in my opi nion, by the Department of Health? Will he undertake to use this as a case example to review it and investigate it, as he did on Bill 22 when there were mistakes regarding Bill 22? Will

June 14, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3503 he review completely all of the actions in order to ensure that this kind of dilemm a and problem does not occur again? •

(1355) Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, I am ass wning both honourable members have the permission of the family to discuss these matters in the Legislature. On the basis of that assum ption that I have been discussing this matter today, the honourable member wants a review done. I can tell the honourable member I have reviewed this very carefully, and I am quite willing to do it again if my review has not been comp lete. But you see there are two adoption desks in this country, too. There is an adoption desk at the provincial level and an adoption desk at the federal level.

I do not know all of the considerations that went into the hnmigration Appeal Board's ruling, but petbaps on the basis that this child has been a legally adopted child, that came into the equation. That is one area that needs to be reviewed, and I certainly acce pt that. I will be very happy to take that up with the fe deral government and with the department here. I have already done that to some extent, but it may be that with a new fe deral government, there is an opportunity to address this.

It see ms to me that at some point there should have been better co-ordination between the fe deral and provincial adoption desks . If Roxana was indeed medically inadm issible, as the fe deral government has taken that position which is now only changed by the Immigration Appe al Board, if indeed that was the case, then the question arises , how come the two adoption desks were not co-ordinated on that point? I have asked those questio ns, and I would like to see-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Chomiak: We asked that precise question on June 21last year.

We asked the minister to look at that very point, so I am pleased the minister will take a look at it. My final supplementary to the minister is: Will he tell us now what the government 's policy is presently in Mani toba with respect to the issuance of bonds? Mr. McCrae: Mr.

Spea ker, if a person is medically inadmissible , then the only way by which they can be registered in Manitoba is through, I fo rget the proper name for it, but the bond we are talking about here , and that was the situation that existed, and now that Roxana has technically been found to be medically admissi ble , then those rules do not app ly. It is for people who are not admissi ble medically speaking that the bond exists. In other provinces , Mr. Speaker, if they are medically ina dmissi ble , there is no coverage whatsoever. They are not accepted; they are not registered.

In this case, we looked at that issue several times. It had been the medical opinion that the bond ought to be at the level of about $300,000, and after review and after urging by myself and my predecessor, that matter was looked at repeatedly , and the bond level was reduced. So the need for a bond is there for those who are med ically inadmissible , not for those who are medically admissible, because those who are medic ally admissible have coverage like every other Manitoban. Norwood Bridge Public Hearing Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr.

Speaker, I have been asking questions related to the Norwood bridge pro ject, a hundre d-milli on-d ollar construction pro ject of ma jor importance to The Forks, to the areas of southeast Winnipeg and downtown. There are numerous issues related to this pro ject in terms of traffic planni ng, green space, community development and safety . I want to ask the Minister of Environment: Why are the at least nine letters sent to the civic and provincial governments on behalf of organizations representing well over 100 people not sufficient to warrant a public hearing for the community on this development? Bo n.

Gl en Cu mmings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, first of all, I am not sure what letters the member is ref erri ng to. During

3504 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 14, 1994 the period when the director was soliciting public input into this pro ject, be received one letter of communication that raised a concern and was interested in see ing further pub lic input. He has not recommended a bearing. At this point, I believe I now have two letters of appe al in the process that are asking that I not accept that recommendation and call a hearing. So, Mr. Speaker, if there are other letters that are on their way or perhaps have not been forwarded to me appropri ately, I would be more than interested in seeing them.

I simply indicate, as I have indicated a number of times, the director only received one letter of request that would indicate the need for a bearing. We are now in the appeal p rocess until the end of the week, and I p resume we may get some letters now that the issue has been raised in this f orum. • (14 00) Ms. Cerilli : Why was there a hearing held for the Char leswood bridge and not this bridge in the downtown area which affe cts The Forks , a community school, bike paths, the traffic flow to Osborne Street and the access to the riverbank? Mr. Cummings: Mr.

Speaker, I recognize that for the community this is a very important iss ue, but there is a signific ant diff erence between the process that occurred around the Charle swood bridge and around the Norwood bridge . First of all, the Char leswood bridge was deemed not to be ca ptured within the requirement of The Environment Act and it was excluded from the process. The question was whether or not the department bad received app ropriate advice in that respect. With the Norwood bridge, we have put it through the process. It is in the pr ocess.

The only problem is there have not been any requests of any magnitude that, in the opinion of the director, were not answered within the process requesting a public hearing. We are now in the appeal process and have been for three weeks. We wrote a letter to ever y organization that bad expressed an interest in it, telling them what the director 's decision was and inviting them to appeal. They may now appeal, and I would encourage those, if they fee l motivated in that respect, to exercise that option. Ms. Cerilli : Mr.

Spea ker, so will the local community now have a chance to respond and comment on this environmental impact assessment report? Will there be open public hearings likely on this pro ject? Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, this is an abuse. This is an abuse of the process. The bridge is in the environmental licensing process. It was adve rtised. For her to imply that in some way we are trying to circumvent the process is ab solutely wrong. If there are concerned citizens who believe that there are good and valid reasons and if the Oty Council -some councillors are on record as wanting a public airing.

Perhaps they want that public airing so the provin ce's process will help them with their decision making, but if the Oty Council believes that in their own best interests they would like this to go to a further public pro cess, then I would encourage the council to write . Manitoba Hydro Water Leve Js....-C ommunication Strategy Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas) : Mr. Speaker, my ques tions are also directed to the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro.

As the minister know s, there have been numerous problems over the past two years with Hydro dams increasing or lowering the water levels up north without noti f ying those communities that are nearby. Commercial fi shermen at Poplar Point have contacted our office recently, Mr. Speaker, con cerning the water level at the fo rebay. I want to ask the minister: What is the official policy of Hydro on changing the water leve ls in terms of notifying the residents and the fisherm en's organizations in the area? Ron. Donald Orchard (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr.

Speaker, Hydro attempts to advise those communities aff ected to sudden change . Mr. Lathl in: Mr. Speaker, I am trying to give the minister some woik: here. -

June 14, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3505 My second question, Mr. Speaker, is again to the Minister responsible for Hydro. Would he check with staff up north, the Hydro people, and make sure that all Hydro stations up there update their lists to ensure that all appropriate people are notified about changing those water leve ls? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, when my honourable friend speaks about giving people wolk, I think the member for 1be Pas might look forward to the next election where the people, the votem there maybe want to give him a real job again. [in terjection] Three or fo ur, maybe some more .

My honourable friend indicates that someone from Hydro should be contacting the appropriate people. To the best of my knowledge, Hydro has the list of bands and councils so that appropriate notification can take place. If my honourable friend is saying that the list is not complete, the list is the one as provided by those affe cted communiti es. Should there be a requirement for additional individuals to be notified, the band would have that opportunity when they are so notified. Mr. Lathlin: My last question, Mr. Speaker, is again to the Minister responsible for Hydro.

Would the minister be prepared to consider compensation for those fishermen whose equipment gets damaged when these water levels are changed without notifying the aff ec ted communities? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, in the past where damage to fishing equipment has occurred, there is a pro cess of application. If the dam age is mitigatable, those compensations are made. That process has been in place for a number of years now. Drug Program Information Network Systemhouse Proposal Ms. A vis Gray (Crescentwoo d): Mr.

Speaker, we are anxiously awaiting , as I am sure the minister is, the imple me ntation of the Dru g Program Inf ormation Network. We know that companies were asked to submit pro posals to the minister so that they would be up and running for April 1, 1994. Can the Minister of Health tell us, did the proposal from Sys temh ouse, which is the successful bidder in this tendering process , outline penalties that the company would have to pay if in fact they were not able to meet the government 's deadline? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : Mr.

Speaker, in arran gements like this, those are the kinds of things that find their way into contractual terms. The penalties or sanctions are acted on to the extent that it is deemed appropriate to do so, given the perf ormance of the contract. It is important for us-and the honourable member has already agreed with this, I am glad to say-to ensure that all of the pharmacis ts in the province are ready and on line before we, as they say, go live, with respect to this automated pharmaceutical system.

So there is general agreement there, but I do not think we have to wait very many more days longer before we can give the honourable member an update as to where we are . Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary for the Minister of Health. My question would be in regard to the prop osals of Systemhou se. There are deadlines that have been missed. Have they actually been told that they are required to pay those penal ties, or what is the status of that? Mr. McCrae: Mr.

Spe aker, to the extent that deadlines missed are misse d because of somebody 's negligence , we would be acting on the terms of the contract as they are laid out. There are also some 247 pharmacists with whom we are wolking in a very co-operative way, and they have specific needs. So I am not able to say whose fault this was or that was at this point to the extent that there is a problem or negligence . The contract allows for us to take action pUISuant to that. Start-up Date Ms. Avis Gray (Crescen twood): Mr.

Speaker, with a final supplementary for the Minister of Health, can the minister indicate-be talks about

3506 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 14, 1994 this system being up and running soon-d oes be have a definitive date as to when we will see this system in place? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : Well, Mr. Speaker, I will be very fo rthcoming about this. We have given definitive dates before and not met them. So if I give the honourable member another definitive date and do not meet it, one of these days she is going to come back and say you do not meet your commitments.

We are working very closely with all of the pharmacists, with the contractor, and it may be that within a short time I can be more definitive with the honourable member. Francophone Schools Governance Legal Opinion-Notre Dame de Lourdes Mr. John Plobman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, I have again met with the parents from Notre Dame, parents for a fair education in Notre Dame who continue to be ignored by this minister and by this government. 1be minister bas refused to consider the needs of at least 10 8 students as a result of the implementation of Bill 34.

The Francophone parents there who re present these 108 students desperately want a compromised resolution to the problem that is dividing the community of Notre Dame. 1be minister says that Bill 34 was so rigid that he cannot direct a compromise solution to the problems by way of a regulation or arbitration. I want to ask the minister today whether be bas sought legal opinion as to his ability to act under

Section 21 (43)(c)(t)(

g) and (

b) in the act which gives him sweeping powers, Mr. Speaker, to enact regulations on Bill 34, in order either to specify an arbitration process for the Notre Dame situation or provide more time for the settlement before a transf er would take place. I want to ask the minister whether, in fa ct, be bas sought legal opinion and whether he would table that legal opinion here today. •

(1410) Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, the short answer to the question is yes. I have sought legal opinion, and the opinion states in no uncertain tenns that the government would be worlting outside the full intent of the bill were it to bring in an amendment in keeping with what the member for Dauphin indicate s. Mr. Speaker, the member asks that we make public that legal opinion. That is not usually the case . These are not often shared in a public sense , and the member well knows that. Mr. Plobman: Mr. Speaker, I asked the minister whether be bas referenced those specific sections in his legal opinion, 21(43)(c)(

t) and (g), as well as (b); (

c) refers to the date of transf er of property , fo r example, set by regulation. The minister answ ered in a blanket way that, yes, be sought legal opinion, and be cannot deal with this issue. I know for a fact be can, and I want to ask him to confinn that he can, in fa ct, deal with the issue of transfer of property . Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I guess then what the NDP party is advocating is a policy that they supported from the beginnin g, indeed, that there be a cut- off date , July 1, for transference of prope rties , particularly schools to the new school division, that that now be set aside.

On some basis the provincial gov ernm ent is to choose as between which communities should see a transf er of properties and which should not. What then would happen in those communities, knowing now that they have a second chance? Would they then also approach the government to have their date changed alte rnatively? Mr. Speaker, I know it is very easy when you are in opposition just to make a change in pure isolation and have the ability to ignore the impact or the implication of that on the whole issue . In reality, government does not have that licence. At times, I wish it did. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Speaker, the minister has to realize that because of his fa ilure to act, the time is running out and this is a pot entially explosive situation that can develop, and it is developing . I ask the minister whether be would consider this unique situation. He does not have to change the regulation for the whole province . He can deal

June 14, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3507 with this unique situation in Notre Dame. This regulation provides him with the poweiS to do that. Why will he not act with this unique situation because of the circumstances that have deve loped? Mr. Manness: The member answers his own question. He talks about unique. He talks about specific. The reality is, there are unique situations elsewhere also.

Had there been an opportunity or a belief that the government at the last moment could waive the deadline for other locations, I dare say other locations would have probably come fo rward to the ministry and come fo rward to the office of the department see king that they too see waived their date for transfer. Mr. Speaker, the member has been in the public policy arena for many, many yeaiS now. He knows that when you make unilateral decisions to affect one location, obviously there is an outcome that may flow over to other locations, causing yet once again further decisions. Mr.

Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. TABLING OF REPORTS (continued) Bon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could have leave to table a couple of letteiS that I said I would table yesterday in Question Period and also in Estimates last night, as it ref eiS to the Immigrant Investor Program. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave for the honourable minister to table said documents? [agreed] Mr. Downey: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I did not want to take the time in Question Period. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Bon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if yo u would seek unanimous consent of the House to set aside the Estimates of the Department of Justice in the Chamber in onler to continue with the Estimates of the Department of Highways and Transportation. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to set aside the Department of Justice to allow the Department of Highways and Transpo rtation in the Chamber? Leave? [agreed] Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, la st night, at the conclusion of the consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism, the committee voted on item l. (

a) Minist er's Sa lary, but inadvertently did not vote on Resolution 10 .1, Administration and Finance, containing that item. Therefore, I am see king unanimous consent of the House for that

section of the Committee of Supply sitting in the Chamber to conduct the vote on Resolution 10.1 before resuming consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Highways and Transportation. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave of the House to bring fo rward the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism in the committee? Apparently they inadvertently did not vote on Resolution 10.1, so I undeiStand you want to come in with Industry, Trade and Tourism and deal specifically with that item. An Honourable Member: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Yes. Is there leave to all ow I, T and T to come back in to deal with 10.1? [agreed] Mr.

Ernst: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Ducbanne ), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itse lf into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker: For clarification, I will ask the government House leader if we are setting aside the Department of Justice for today. Mr. Ernst: The change, Mr. Speaker, with respect to Estimates consideration in the House is for today only. Mr. Speaker: For today only, okay. Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Speaker, I also advise that in the committee room now it will be the Department of Northern Affairs. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Northern AffaiiS; and

3508 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 14, 1994 the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Departments of Industcy, Trade and Tourism, and Highways and Transportati on. •

(1420) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (CollCIUTellt Sections) NORmERN AFFAIRS Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau) : Will the Committee of Supply ple ase co me to order. This

section of the Committee of Supp ly meeting in Room 255 will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs . Does the honourable Minister of Northern Affairs have an opening statement? Bon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Northern Aff airs): Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. I am going to tcy to make my statement fairly brief because I know members of the committee , particularly our northern members, will want to get into a host of questions about specific issues, and that is probably the best way to app roach the discussion of these Estimates of the department. •

(1430) I am very pleased to have this first opp ortunity to discuss the Estim ates of the Department of Northern Affairs since my appointment to this post last September. This past year has been very gratifying for me in this new and very challenging portf olio.

New challeng es, a large spectrum of issues , unique issues of development in the North, a special need to develop partnerships with a wide variety of communities, the special challenges faced by the North in the se arch for an enhancement of their way of lif e have all been presented to myself and my staff in the last number of months since coming into this portf olio. I am grateful fo r the opp ortunities to have travelled to many northern communities. I might point out that the new de puty, Mr.

Tom Farrell, and myself both spent a complete week in the North in January, in probably the most diffi cult time in terms of travel, just to get a better understanding of some of those issues related to weather that the northern MLAs raise from time to time. We have had opportunity to talk both form ally and inf ormally with many northern residents and organizations, local government, et cetera, about their concerns. St af f in the department have worked hard to help me learn about the chall enges and responsibilities of the portf olio and have done an outstand ing job in serving the needs of northern Manitoba.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank them for their acco mplishments and commitment to the provin ce. In introducing the Estimates for Northern Affairs, I would like to highlight two events of major importance for northern Manitoba. The most important was the signing in March of a treaty land entitlement agreement that enables treaty obli gations to the Island Lake Tribal Council to be fulfilled. This historic agreement culminated two years of tripartite negoti ations with the fe deral government and the tribal council.

We were very satisfied with both this pro cess and the outcome which took into consideration the needs of all parties involved in the proce ss. Our obl igations were to transf er uni nhabited Crown land to the federal government under the Manitoba Natural Resources Agreement of 1930, which Ottawa will use to fulfill its treaty obl igations. We are also providing to the First Nations involved the option to buy an additional approxi mately 100,000 acres of Crown land in the vicinity of their communities for $25 an acre.

That option stands for two years, and I understand discussions are underway currently as to which particular property would be exercised under the option The significance of this provision is that additional land, if the First Nations want it, can be an important source of economic activity. This land will remain titled land in the province of Manitoba and allow those First Nations to use vari ous fi nancing vehic les for ec onomic development proj ects with that land as security. It wa s an innovative way of closing a set of negotiations , and one that I think presents a unique

June 14, 1994 LBGISLA11VE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3509 opportunity for develo pment for those First Nations involved. A few weeks ago, I was privileged to announce six infrastructure pro jects for northern Manitoba under the Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure Wolks Agree menL The six p rojects in Brochet, Churchill, Gillam , Lynn Lake , South Indian Lake and Thompson are worth app roximately $4.3 mill ion, of which the funding costs are split evenly between the mun icipalities involv ed, the fe deral government and the province of Manitoba.

In the case of the Northern Aff airs communiti es, the department will be funding the municipal share . These pro jects will provide an important injection of capital into the communities involved and the North generally and will generate ap proximately 80 new job s during their construction period. Most important of all, they addressed outstanding local needs in the six communities, and they allow us, in terms of the Northern Affairs communitie s, to stretch our regular capital budget much farther.

Several other major issues on which we have continued to work over the last yea r include generally treaty land entitlement. Besi de the Island Lake agree ment, we have made important progress in working with Manitoba bands and the fed eral government toward resolving other outstanding treaty land entitlement claims. The province signed a protocol agree ment in October with the treaty land entitlement chie fs representing 22 First Nations. The agreement provides for negotiations towards the signing of a treaty land entitlement agreement in principle.

Manitoba considers treaty land entitlement issues to be a priori ty, and we will continue to work with Canada, who has the prime responsibili ty, and our First Nations communities towards an early, equitable and final settlement of these outstanding obliga tions. The Northern Flood Agree ment is also an area that has occupied a great deal of time for the department, and I am pleased to report that we have made substantial progress in resolving claim settlements under the Northern Flood Agreement.

We have signed a comprehensive agreement with the Split Lake Cree First Nation as a full and final settlement of our obligations under the Hydro flooding issue . Memora ndums of Understanding for comprehensive impl ementation of settlements have been signed with the Nelson House, Yorlc Factory and Cross Lake First Nations. We expect the comprehensive agree ment with Nelson House, we hope will be completed by next fal l.

The four pa rties to the Northern Flood Agree ment continue to negotiate with the Norway House First Nation on a claim-by-claim basis, but we also continue to promote final comprehensive implementation of settlements as the best way to resolve this iss ue. The comprehensive implementation agreements help ensure that First Nations have more control over their own affairs and decision making. We e xpect the settlements to have a major impact on economic and social develo pment in the five communities that are parties to the agreement.

Just as my department co-ordinates government activities in northern Manitoba, our Native Affairs Se cretariat co-ordinates Manitoba government interests in matters aff ecting aboriginal people. They will co-ordinate Manitoba's role in the process of dismantling the Manitoba region of the federal Department of Indian Affairs . I might add that there are matters involving some critical worlc with other gov ernm ents across Canada in the fi eld of fi scal, fi nancial, jurisdi ctional responsibilities which relate to the self-gov ernm ent issue.

I would point out to members, I am sure we will have opportunity to get into this discussion further as that line of the Estimates comes fo rward. It is certainly probably the most fas cinating area in this particular portfolio at the current time because Manitoba, due to the work of Grand Chief Fontaine, is probably poised on being one of the leaders in the development of self-government issues in Canada. So it is cert ainly an exciting time to be worlcing in this particular area. • (1 440) Twenty-one First Nations now have gaming agreements and 12 have VLT agreements with the province .

Negotiations continue with other First Nations who have expressed an intere st I would

3510 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 14, 1994 just point out again that om involvement in gaming stems from the Criminal Code of Canada, which provides or calls for licensing under provincial licensing in older to be exempt from the illegality of gaming as prescribed by the national Criminal Code . So that is the basis for Manit oba 's involvement The Native Aff airs Secretariat is worldng with Manitoba's friendship centres to try to develop ways for them to participate in the proposed federal reform of social services.

I know we have had opportunities to discuss this before in Question Period. 1bere are some tremendous opportuni ties that exist for our friendship centres to be worked into this reform process, and I hope we can discuss those in greater detail when we come to that particular area in our Estimates . A more specific objective is to find a way for the centres to participate in a variety of pilot pro jects that could arise during this review.

One pro ject that we have been delighted to support again this year is the Northern Fly-In Sports Camps, which provide sports and recreational programs to northern and native communities, a most worthwhile pro ject. We are again vecy happy to participate in that area. Mr. Deputy Chair, that concludes my opening remarks. I look fo rward to the questions and the exchanges that we will get into shortly with members of the committee . I am sure this will be a vecy interesting set of discussions . Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the Minister of Northern Affairs for those comments.

Does the critic for the official opposition party, the honourable member for The Pas, have an opening statement? Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas) : Mr. Deputy Chair, I also would like to make a few remarks at the outset. I welcome again this opportunity to go through the Estimates of Northern Affairs . Firstly, I want to welcome and congratulate the new Minister of Northern Af fairs to the Department of Northern Affairs .

As the minister sa ys, the Department of Northern Af fairs is indeed a challenging dep artment in that I have always seen the department as being a department that although we have other departments that are quite substantial and they are quite comprehensive and they have big budgets, Northern Affairs , I have always viewed it as being a department that would service an advocacy department for northern Manitoba as the minister sits in a cabinet room meeting with colleagues and so on.

In the last session, I tried to get the fo rmer Minister of Northern Aff airs to define for us what he saw his role being as Minister of Northern Affairs. I tried to use the analogy where, when I was chief of my band, not only was I responsible for our members at the Opask:wayak Cree Nation, but I also served in the Swampy Cree Tribal Council , where I served in committees. I was also a chairperson of that tribal council for a fe w years.

The n, of cour se , we have the Manitoba Keewatinowi Okemakanak, MKO, where also I sat as an executive member of that organization. and then further up, at the Assembly of Manitoba Chie fs organization, I served in various committees, the justice committee. Probably the former Minister of Norther n Af fairs will remember. I chaired the AMC justice committee for a few years and then up to Assembly of First Nations.

So the point I was trying to make at that time was, whether I was sitting at the Assembly of First Nations committee or board or at the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs committee or at MKO or at Swampy Cree Tribal Counc il, my responsibilities included that of being an advocate for, not only The Pas band, Opask:wayak Cree Nation as it is calle d now, but for all of aboriginal people in northern Manitoba and southern Manit oba. That is how I have always looked at Northern Aff airs. It is a department that in my mind is supposed to speak for northerne rs.

Whether we are dealing with education, health, natural resources or justice, I have always viewed the Department of Northern Aff airs as being a department that would co-ordinate all of these issues and speak on them on behalf of northern Manitoba.

- June 14, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3511 Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister is right. Northern Manitoba, indeed, has special needs . That is why I have always advocated in the House that the North, in my view, is always behind the sta rting gate as it were. When it comes to alloca ting resource s, I have always said in the House and in fo rums like this that Manitoba wamn ts special consideration, maybe not all the time, but certainly most of the time, northern Manitoba, because it does not have the population, it does not have all the resources that we have here in southern Manitoba.

So I have always advocated that northern Manitoba in general has a lot of special needs . I also want to welcome the new Deputy Minister of Northern Affai rs, who has been around for a while . I knew him when he was mayor of Thomps on. I spoke a little bit about the role , because I read the role and mission statement. It has a lot of nice words but, again I say to the minister, we need more than just nice words. For example, the dismantling of Indian Affairs he has ref erenced as being a fa scinating exercise or a fas cinating activity. Mr.

Deputy Chair, I want to say to the minister that the dismantling of Indian Affairs is more than just-the government has to view it as more than just a fascinating exercise. The government has to view the dismantling of Indian Affairs as an opportunity for the provincial government to be more proactive in its dealings with aboriginal people because in my mind-and I am not being nasty or negative, I am just trying to be realistic in terms of how I see this government in its dealings with aboriginal people in the fo ur years I have been here-we need to be more than just fascinate d, I am afraid.

We need to be more committed. We need to be more action oriented. We need to be more responsive to the needs and aspirations of aboriginal people . I am glad the minister is saying he is fascinated by this whole process, but I am also hoping that he will get on board in very real terms. By that I mean it would be tragic if all this activity was going on on the route to self -government by the aboriginal people-the fed eral government is willing to have a good look at self -government.

It would be tragic, I repeat, if this government were to just sit by and become an island unto itself amongst all this activity that is going on in the area of aboriginal self-government here in Manitoba. We need more action. We need more proactivity. I am also reminded by the minister's comments rega rding fr iends hip centre s. The minister remembers our questions in the House a year ago, a year and a half ago now, I guess, when it cut funding to friendship centr es.

At that time, the response from ministers to our questions on the funding issue was that they viewed the friendship centres as being-! cannot remember exactly how they viewed them-as playing the advocacy role. It seems quite ironic that the government is now going back to the friendship centres to solicit their input or support in its endeavours to develop some kind of social ref orm, as he puts it. •

(1450) I welcome that initiative on the part of the provincial government. Certainly any positive development that may come about as a result of the friendship centres having an input into this social reform process, I welcome it. It is a positive step if it means that in the end people will realize real benefits and not just pre-election maneuvers and things like that. I hope that in the end they will come to realize that their input will not have been in vain. The last thing that I wanted to say in my opening remarks is to ref erence the Northern Economic Deve lopment Commission.

Now I know the fo rmer Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) and I used to sit here and talk about the Northern Economic Develo pment Commission. Every Estimates time he would assure me that wm:k was getting done, and that it was going to be very exciting and northern Manitobans will be-how did he say it?-pleasandy surprised is what the fo rmer Minister of Northern Affairs told me at one of the sessions we had here. Well, the Northern Economic Development Commission report is sitting right here. A lot of paper, a lot of money was spent on it. A lot of travelling was done in northern Manitoba. People

3512 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 14, 1994 were actually very sincere in coming to those hearings and voicing their concerns on the state of northern development. Again, just as I was talking about the friendship centres, these people actu ally thought that finally there was something that was going to be done in teiDIS of northern economic development. I believe it is over a year ago now that this report has been finished , and it was tabled by the government in the House. So fa r, of course , we have not seen much activity in terms of implementing those recommendations that are contained in the report.

A lot of those recommendations , I should also add, deal with issues that had been there for a long, long time, way before this commission was convened, issues that northern Manitobans had been talking about for quite some time. Now fi nally they are contained in an off icial government commission, in a report. But it is almost like the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry report and all those fine recommendations that were contained in the AJI report. 1bis report is sitting there colle cting dust. What has been implemented? None. And that is over a year ago.

Again, I want to impress upon the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Praznik), because of the special needs aspect of northern Manitoba, the transportation system, the educational syst em, the economic development that is la cking, the unemployment, the geographical locations of most communities in the North, that is why I agree with the minister that his new job is certainly very challenging. I agree with him wholeheartedly . My job as a chief was most challenging. My job, when I sat in those committees at Swampy Cree, MK.O, AMC and AFN, was very challenging.

The commission was convened, I would hope, to try to address those very special needs that the minister referenced, the challenge that the Department of Northern Affairs presents to the new Minister of Northern Affai rs, but whatever the minister is going to do in the Department of Northern Affairs, in my view, he will have to do things that are responsive to reports like the AJI, to reports like the Economic Development Commission . We cannot afford to not do anything from these reports , because, as the ministe r says , northern Manitoba has a lot of special nee ds.

I want to conclude by repeating one of the statements that I made in the House recently when I was responding to the throne speech, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, and that was the North only wants what other Manitobans take for granted. That is all I have been saying since I have come here, nearly fo ur years ago now. We just want what other Manitobans take for granted. They are there already , and we just wanted to be treated in a fair and equitable way for those of us who were born and raised in the North, and for those of us who moved to the North either for employment or recreation and have decided to stay there .

So we are citizens of Manitoba, regardless of whether we are living in Tadoule Lake or The Pas or Moose Lake or Cross Lake or Norway House . We are citizens, just like that citizen that lives in Transcona, River Heights or Tuxedo, we are all citizens of Manitoba, and that is why I have always said in my speeches in the House that we need to be given due consi deration. It is time that we did that I also wanted to mention, and I will close right after that.

You see, when I was chief I used to come to negotiate with whichever party was in government at the time, and the response that I invariably received from people , ministers and government officials was that I was a fe deral responsibili ty, because I was a treaty Indian, and that I should go and knock on the doors of the fed eral government. Well, I noticed something similar when I came here and I took on the job as critic of Northern Affairs for our party. It seemed to me that every time I asked a question in the House I was given a response which usually gave me the impression that you are a northern problem.

That always sat with me, Mr. Deputy Chair, because we do not look at ourselves as a northern problem. We look at oUISelves as being citizens of Manitoba. With those comments I will tum the floor back to the Chair. I am glad to be here, and hopefully we will be able to provide meaningful input into this discussion here today.

- June 14, 1994 LEGISLA11VE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3513 Mr. Deputy Chairpers on: I thank the honourable member for The Pas for those remarks. Does the critic from the second opposition party, the honourable member for Osborne, have an opening statement? Ms. Norma McCormick (Osborne): Mr. Deputy Chair, I understand the member for Rupertsland wishes to speak as well. Did you wish for him to go first or for me? Okay. I am sitting in this af ternoon then for the member for St. Bonif ace and have acquired a file with respect to some of the issues that be intended to raise in this Estimates debate.

We will be asking questions about the entitlement of aboriginal people living on reserves to the benefits of the 55 Plus program. We also have questions on the proposal by the Buff alo Point First Nations community on taxation and resource sharing and the province 's approach to this First Nation sovereignty issue . We will also be asking for information with respect to the Norway House First Nations to be fully informed and involved in decision-making processe s reganling the restructuring of the Northern Flood committee .

It is their hope that a restru ctured process will bring the Norway House First Nations claims under the NFA and to amicable resolution. • (15 00) As well, if time and my participation in this Estimates committee permits , I would like to raise some special issues with respect to issues aff ecting women. As we come to grips with issues of violence towards women and children we have come to recognize that the interventions and solutions we develop for southern and urban communities are not necessarily effective as we move to support fa milies and protect women in northern and isolated communities.

The strate gies we have evolved are not as necessarily powerful and ef fective as they are contemplated for imple mentation in northern and is olated communities. I will be seeking an opportunity to explore the ways which we can explore this important social issue and the ways in which it can best be addre ssed, what supports and initiatives are or should be contemplate d. Perhaps it will be necessa ry to broaden our discussions of infrastructure programs beyond capital initiatives to discuss the importance of social infrastructure.

H the opportunity does not permit the discussion in this fo rum, I will find another opportunity to do it. That is my opening statement . Mr. Deputy Chairperson: I thank the honourable member for Osborne for those remarks . Is there leave of the committee to allow the honourable member for Rupertsland to finish up and use the other 15 minutes left over by the honourable member for The Pas? [agreed] Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland) : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would like to thank the minister for his opening remarks on this day of dialogue with respect to the Estimates of this department.

I also want to congratulate the minister and welcome him to his new portfol io. It is, I would say , indeed a challenging job and certainly I think that be bas done his best to address the many and varied issues that have been talked about by my colleague from The Pas, who is our designated critic for Northern Affai rs. I being the Native Affairs critic for our party, I certainly have some interest in the aff airs of this department that the honourable minister is in charge of. I too would like to welcome the deputy minister to this job, Mr. Farre ll. I have known Mr.

Farre ll for a number of years, and as my colleague , Mr. Latblin, said, I knew him when be was mayor of Thompson. Certainly, be is well needed in this department and his fa miliarity with northern Manitoba will certainly come in bandy in the time to come . We talked about many issues that are close to our hearts , being from northern communities. Having been born and raised in no rther n communities, we certainly know the situation of our people in northern Manitoba, and not excluding nonaboriginal people that have been born there and have been raised there, such as aboriginal people have.

We are certainly aware of

3514 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 14, 1994 the socioeconomic situation of northern Manitoba where we have in certain instances 98 percent unemployment in some communities. We want to wolk in a constructive way with this department and with this minister in addressing the many outstanding issues that do exist.

I was interested to hear about the Native Affairs Secretariat, of this department, womng with the First Nations governments of this province in the dismantling process that has been undertaken by the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs and the federal government through the Department of Indian Affairs, the Northern Flood Agreement. We know that there is some unfinished business there as well.

We regard that certainly as a modem-day treaty, and being a First Nations member from one of those communities of the affected bands we have all along since the signing of the treaty have regarded it as a modem-day treaty, the Northern Flood Agreement, and reganl it no differently than the other numbered treaties, Treaty No. 1, Treaty No. 2, No. 3, No. 4, No. 5, and the other treaties in the province of Manitoba, and the treaty groupings throughout. We supported the friendship centres when the cuts were made last year.

We still believe, and we had a healthy debate on this matter through a private members' resolution, Mr. Dewar of Selkirk's resolution last week on friendship centres, and certainly I welcome the remalks of the minister then when he said that there is a role for friendship centres. Further investigation will be done as to exactly what that role will be in the time to come. As far as the gaming arrang ements are concerned, I comm end the government for that, the agreements that have been signed with certain Fust Nations.

We have a long way to go in this reganl as well, and I look forwanl to further discussion on that, further dialogue to enable communities to perhaps remove the shackles of poverty that they have lived under over the years, and allow them to carry on and be prouder members of this province. The National Association of Friendship Centres, again, I would like to mention, held a meeting here this spring, quite recently, in fact, to talk about self-government initiatives for off-resetve people, and we want to revisit that whole idea.

We also want to revisit the previous minister's efforts with respect to an Urban Aboriginal Strategy that was talked about some years ago. We want to talk about the whole situation of off-resetve aboriginal people and people that do not ne cessa rily come from a First Nation community but nevertheless are resident in off-resetve environments. We have some questions about the Northern Fly-In Sports Camps. We believe it is a good initiative, and I think it was one of the programs that was recognized by the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry. We certainly hold it in high regard.

For many of our communities, this is something that we really need. I know that six communities in northern Manitoba have been approved for a sports camp this year, and I know that there are eleven that applied, or perhaps a dozen. We believe that is very important. We have been also in discussion with many communities that are under the jurisdiction of the Northern Affairs Community Councils, with respect to their capital budgets.

In Berens River we were told about the capital budget there being $13, 000 per annum, and that is unrealistic for the wolk that has to be done for snow removal and all of the other wolk in that community. We look forward to a good dialogue with respect to that with this minister, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. We believe as well that the Manitoba government has to be a willing partner in all issues relating to self-government for First Nations people. The initiatives that they are taking, and also Metis people, they have their own aspirations of how they view self-government. We want to talk about that at some length.

My colleague, the member for The Pas, also talked about the Northern Economic Development Commission. We certainly hope, unlike the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, which is just shy of its third anniversary since it was tabled, that it will not -

- - June 14, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3515 simply be another good work that will just go by the wayside and be put on the shelf to collect dust. We want to be proactive . I think that the member for 1be Pas and myself have been, during Question Period and other business of this government and this structure , positive in our remarks toward this government, petbaps too polite sometime s, but nevertheless, we want to co-operate . We are not in any way trying to be adversarial.

We are not trying to cause commotion as well. • (1 510 ) We view the Department of Northern Affairs -and I think that both the member for 1be Pas and I remember when the Department of Northern Aff airs was not quite a department in the early '7 0s , when it was still a commission. We remember those days, and we also remember the time the transition took place for the commission to become an ove rall department. I want to conclude by saying as well the aboriginal women of this province have made a presentation to the Roya l Commission on Aboriginal Peopl es.

I think that the presentation that was made to the Royal Commissi on is truly commendable . I want to outline here that 51 percent of the aboriginal population in Manitoba is women. Certainly they have a role to play in the affairs of any self -government initiatives. I believe that also women that have been involved in the recent conf erence , aboriginal women in the workforce also made good recommendations. I know a member of your staff, Mr. Minister, has been actively involved in that, Ms. Von Ramin. Certainly we want to be able to address those in a constructive way.

I do believe that my colleague from 1be Pas has touched a lot of areas. We certainly do not want to prolong opening dialogue, but we fe el that it is important to bring these matters and raise these matters and bring them to record as northern members sitting in this Legislature. It would have been unheard of a few years ago to have two treaty Indians sitting in a Manitoba Legislature, but that is a reality of today's polity in Manitoba, and we are certainly wanting to make our contribution. We view northern Manitobans as no diff erent than other Manitobans. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chaitperson. Mr.

Deputy Chairpers on: I thank the honourable member for Rupertsland. Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Ministe r's Sal ary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of the department. Accordingly, we shall defer the consideration of this item. We will now proceed with the consideration of the next line . At this time we invite the minister 's staff to join us at the table. We ask the minister to introduce his staff that is present. Mr. Pramik: Mr.

Deputy Chair, it is my pleasure to introduce the Deputy Minister of Northern Affairs, and Labour, who is new to this portf olio, like myself, but no stranger to the two northern members who are here with us today, Mr. Tom Farre ll. He comes to this depa rtment with experience of being a northerner, having been mayor of the City of Thompson, a long-time employee Inco, a fo rmer director of Workplace Safety and Health, fo rmer acting chief executive officer of the Wotkers Compensation Board, I am very pleased to have him back as Deputy Minister of Labour, and Northern Affairs. We also have Mr.

Oliver Boulette , who is our Assistant Deputy Minister of Northern Aff airs, with spe cial responsibility for the lo cal government division. Mr. Boulette is based in Thompson, in northern Manitoba. He would be the highest ranking provincial government official in northern Manitoba. I think it is important to note that one of the most senior people in this department operates out of the North, where it is most appropriate to be. We also have Mr. Jeff Pol akoff, who is a director of our Northern Deve lopment and Co-ordination Unit. Mr. Joe Morrisse au, who is an analyst with the Native Affairs Secretariat.

He is here on behalf of Mr. Harvey Bostrom, who has been away temporarily because of illness and we expect to have him back very shortly.

3516 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 14, 1994 We have Mr. Merv McKay, who is the manager of the Northern Rood Agreement; and Mr. Rene Gagnon, who our director of Administration and Finance. We are now prepared, Mr. Deputy Chair, for any questions. Should any member of the committee wish a cold drink on this very wann day, we have them available here for members of the committee . Mr. Deputy Chairpers on: I thank the honourable minister. We will now move on to line l. (

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Be nefits $291 ,400. I will be following the Estimates book, the Main Estimates . I do believe some of the members will be dealing with the Supplementary Informa tion. At this time it is Executive Support and it is Salaries and Employee Benefits, which is included in the subappropriation 19.1 on page 14. Mr. Pramik: Mr. Deputy Chaitperson, I just want to suggest so we are all out of the same hymnal here because I have both. I believe my colleagues have the supplementary benefits.

Perhaps if we could get the Oerlc to get a copy of this because this is more succinct and easier to fo llow through, just so we are directing questions at the appropriate time. The supplementary benefits are not quite as clear. We could have our staff - Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Do the honourable members need a copy of this ? If I could just get the honourable minister's copy for just a minute . Anyway, we can start now. Mr. Lathlin: We are on Minis ter's Salary and Executive Support? Mr. Deputy Chairperson: No.

Just go beyond the Minist er's Sa la ry and we are in the deputy mini ster's salary and Executive Support. Mr. Pramik: I just might ask colleagues if they would have a particular way in which they would like to handle this in order to get into specific are as, or do they want to have a free-ranging discussion and then pass it? I am not sure how they want to handle it. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: What is the will of the committee ? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Deputy Chaitperson, the process that I am more fam iliar witb- Mr. Deputy Chairpers on: Order, please. Can I ask you to bring the mike on this side , Oscar?

It will make it easier for Hansard. Mr. Lathlin: The process that I am mo re comfortable with and I think that is what we have been using in past sessions and that is-we used to have a combination, like general questions and then we got into the line by line. If I have a question, I will ask a question, but I would not mind just going into general questions and answers. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Okay , then.

The normal practice of the committee is to deal line by line, but if it is the will of the committ ee, we can deal with the entire department at once and then we will pass the entire dep artment, each line, as we get to it. Mr. Pramik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, my only concern is there are members who might have an interest who come in after we have-1 had this experience with one of our ann ual reports where we went over a whole host of issues and then we were joined by another member who sort of reinvented the whee l.

So perhaps if we could, on the deputy mini ster' sa lary, use those lines to have a general discussion of issues and then get on to each specific area because there are specific blocks in this department, Northern Affairs communities being our government service s, where members will have specific questions . Native Affairs Secretariat, it was a different critic of the official opp osition.

So perhaps if we could have our general questions and discussions on this administrative support, and then we have the general areas of local government development which are 56 communities and then followed by the various agreements we administer. We will make sure we are dealing with those blocks and moving them through. This department in particular has a habit of being all over and it makes it difficult to have the right staf f concentrating on replie s. So if we could do our general stuff now, that would be just exce llent. -

June 14, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3517 Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Minister. At this time, then, we will be dealing with blocks of appro priations. We will deal with App ropriation 19. 1 and then we will p rocee d on to 19.2 after we have passed each resolution. Is it the will of the committee ? [agreed] Mr. Pramik: Mr. Deputy Chair, now that we all have , I guess, the same hymn book here, if you look at the division in the department, area 2, subappropriation 19.2 is Local Gov ernm ent.

So we may want to do all of our discussions on Local Gov ernm ent in that general area because those are the Northem Affairs communities and then move through line by line. Northern Development and Co- ordination include a host of thi ngs : Nor thern Flood Agreements, the Commun ities Economic Development Fund, the Northern Development Commissi on would be in there. That would be one area Then we have the Native Affairs Secretariat, and, of course, our capital app ropriations which relate to our northern communities we will probably discuss under that headline .

So I know we are jumping around a bit, but if we could kind of discuss things in those blocks , that would allow us to keep fo cused, and then once we have completed a block we could pass line by line. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Deputy Chair, on 19.1( b)

(1) Sala ries and Employee Ben efits $291,400-1 looked at the Organizational Chart-first of all, it has gone up from 275 to 291. That would be my first question; you know, the nature of the in crease . As well, se condly, I would ask the minister perhaps to break out the $291,400, like which positions and what expenditures , what areas does it cover? •

(1520) Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chair, one of the reasons for this diff erence, and I will get some specific inf ormation for you on who is in those positions , but what happened with the cabinet shuffle last year was that previously the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs was also the Minister of Energy and Mines , and there was then a sharing of staff and costs between those departments for the operation of that ministerial suite. (Mr. Bob Rose, Acting Deputy Chairpers on, in the Clair) 1bis has now moved over to us where we have the Department of Labour and the Civil Service Commission.

So we do an assignment of those costs between various departments, depending on salary and assignment so there was an untangling with one department and then a moving over to another and entangling with Labour and the avil Service Commission. In terms of staffing I, as minister, have the same staffin g complement that I had previously except that I have two shared staff in one staf f year where I previously had one staff and a full-time staff position. I had st aff leave . We reshuffled in my office and had two part-time people on the same salary where we had a full time .

I am just looking to my director of Finance. Is there any other accounting as to why there was an increase there ? I will just have that for the member. Yes, because we have reorganized somewhat among the departments, there were some changes in class ifications which resulted in a higher salary because of an added workload. Mr. Latblin: Mr. Acting Deputy Chair, so the 291 would cover the deputy minister, the assistant. Am I correct, or I am not fol lowing you? Mr.

Pramik: I can say to the member for The Pas that I fee l just as confused over this as he does, and I wish that my director of Finance could respond directly . I do not believe that the deputy minist er's salary is allotte d to this department. It is allotted to Labour. Included in that $291.4 would be the one assistant to the minister, an executive assistant to the minister, an executive assistant to the deputy, and five administrative support staff or sharing of that salary which would be the secre taries in both the minister 's and the deputy minister's office.

Prior to this situ ation we had in my own min ist er's office, for example, two secre taries who handled the-and they are both here today to watch the Estimates-the Qvil Servi ce, Workers

3518 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 14, 1994 Compensation and Labour. With the change in ministries we acquired an additional secretarial position to handle the Northern and Native Affairs work within the office. So we now have three administrative supp orts where we had two. There was a juggling of responsibility. I believe the deputy minister's is up, as well. There were some areas where the costs were reduced but the total overall is up those few thousands of dol lus. Ms.

McCormick: I am interested in asking questions with respect to the issue identification around policy, development and imple mentation. Can you tell me what specific policy initiatives are being given priority within the department at this time? Mr.

Praznik: Generally speaking, one of the things I have l earne d about this department, and I think our colleagues from northern Manitoba app reciate it, there are always a host of issues that are developing in northern Manitoba that are out of your control, for which you are having to react or develop policy because of events that are out of control or out of your control to determine . Just one, for example, is the decision made by the federal minister with Grand Chief Fontai ne to enter into the dismantling process. That has to be a First Nations and fe deral government initiative.

It is in their control jurisdictionally but because that has come into pl ay, that particular area has taken on a very top priority in my department as we curre ntly are planning our particular positions on a host of issues and have entered into some very unofficial negotiations with both parties to get a sense about the process of bow this is going to work. So that issue has taken on a top priority, again, because of the relationship. It was not one that was expected eight or nine months ago, but because it is happen ing, we are going to be there and we are putting resource time into it.

Ongoing priorities have been the treaty land entitlement processes which are really two bilateral sets of negotiations: One between the treaty chief s with claims and the federal government to whom the responsibility to tum over land is owed, and a bilateral between the fe deral government and the province in making land available were all at the same table , but that is the p roces s. That has been a top priority because we want to move those to settlement So, again, we are not the lead in that; we have been there and pushing.

The third area, of course , is Northern Flood which is a provincial jurisdictional issue. We have been moving on that one and spending a great deal of resources and starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel. Another area that we have put effort into is the North Central power line where we have worked as a co-ordinating unit, and that has been a priority because the opportunity has been there . As well, we have ongoing responsibilities with loca l government, certainly social-policy reform initiated by Minister Axworthy. Our department has a role in that.

So we are often responding beca use we are mor e of a co-ordinating department. We are responding in those policy areas, and so we divert reso urces to them. It is rare that we get to be the initiator of a major area because we have so limited jurisdiction, and the areas in which we do, we have taken a rol e, the North Central hydro line being one of them . Ms. McCormick: Mr. Acting Deputy Clair , one policy initiative that I was hoping to hear in your list is refer enced on page 16 .

The Activit y Identification is "Implements and monitor s affirm ative action po licies to meet the dep artmental affirm ative action goals and objective s." Can you describe to me what your Affirm ative Action program consists of on your prog ress towards meeting those objectives? Mr. Pramik: I must say to the member, when you are in this portfolio, again, sometimes we have to be careful in listening to what we are saying or other people are saying and understanding where they are coming from.

I do not want to leave the impre ssion that affirmative action, in terms of ensuring that we have northerners and particularly aboriginal people employed in this department is not a priority with us. It is, but it is one of the things we do that has become so ingrained in what we do that we do not necessarily talk about it a great deal. -

- - June 14, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3519 As I think the member can app reciate, we have a large number of aboriginal people wodcing in our department One of our areas in tenns of initiatives in local government that we do not specifically view as aboriginal because our Northern Affairs communities, although they are populated largely by Metis people and aboriginal people , they are not entirely aboriginal communiti es. Developing opportunities there and local administrati on there is an area where we have put a fair bit of effort. So we do it without even thinking about it, I guess, is the point that I want to make. •

(1530) If I can tell you, though, within our department we hav e--I just want to check: these numbers for the honourable memb er- yes, just for the member 's inter est, in our department appr oximately one-third of this department now is individuals who declared themselves to be aboriginal. Ms. McCormick: Mr. Acting Deputy Chair, also in preparation for the Status of Women Estimates, I have been reviewing the Hay report. Can you advise me how many of the aboriginal employees of the department are women? Mr.

Pramik: I can tell the member that 54 percent of the departmental staff is female, and I do not have a cross-reference for the member. We can endeavour to get that for the member if she would so wish. Ms. McCormick: Thank you. I would appreciate having that information. As well, if we could look at the organizational chart that is contained in the Supplementacy Estimates, I was wondering if you could identify the box for me in which the senior woman would be found in your de partment. Mr. Praznik: That would be our Director of Personnel. Ms. McCormick: Thank you very much.

I will tum it back to the member for The Pas. Mr. Lathlin: I do not have any more on 19.1. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Rose): 1. Administration and Finance (

b) Executive Support

(1) Sa larie s and Employee Be nefits $291,400 -pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $142,1 00--pass. I.(

c) Financial and Administra tive Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $435,400-p ass;

(2) Other Expenditures $133,700--p ass. 2. Local Government Devel op ment (

a) Programs and Operational Support. Just for clarification, it was my understanding that the committee agreed to consider 19.2 as a total block, in other words, 19.2 (

a) to Q). Is that corre ct? Mr. Pramik: Yes, and, Mr. Acting Deputy Chair, I would just reference members of the committee as well, not showing up here is our Capital Appropri ations, which would include northern communities and community access and resource roads, particularly the northern communi ties. That is our capital budget for the 56 Northern Affairs communi ties, so we may want to consider that as well in discussion. Mr. Lathlin: Just a general question at first, Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, regarding the statement, providing services to northern and remote communities which assi st in the attainment of local self-government, and this service is provided in the form of giving financial and technical assistance. I would like to ask the minister, first of all, according to the minist er's definition of local self-gov ernm ent, how many of those communities would have attained local self -government as per his definition of what local self -gov ernm ent is? Mr. Praznik: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, just for the interest of other mem bers of the committee, I should point out that on Northern Affairs, I know the two members from the North are well aware of this issue, but the Northern Affairs communities are communities that are neither First Na tions commun ities nor large enough to be municipalities. Ba ck when this department was created, it was fe lt that there was a need to establish some administrative unit to start building local systems or p roces ses or institutions of local con trol over the af fairs in those communities.

We have 56 communities on our list of Northern Affairs communities that have been identified and so labelled. They range in population from about

3520 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 14, 1994 1,700-1,800 people in Wabowden, which would be our large st; or Sberridon; South Indian Lake would be about a thous and to no people in Warr en Landing whicb-[interjection] That was some member's laugh. That was a question I had when I was briefed on the department It is still a fishing station that has some population in the summ er and bas not lost its designation but probably will at some point The system evolves a little bit as some new communities are created. I think Rock Ridge was one that was a newer community that was created.

What we try to do is, in communities with a large enough population to warrant an election, we try to move them tow ard ele cting councils who administer the affairs of the communities. Those comm unities that are not large enough for councils, we appo int a local person to be the spokesperson for the community. Often it is because there are 30 or 40 or 50 peop le, and they are all of the same family. They sort of get together and decide who is going to be the leader.

Our ultimate goal for the larger communities who are ready and able and willing and so developed is to mov e them into municipal status, wher e they truly are responsible under The Municipals Affairs Act and have the tax based to support it. Currently, of the 56 communities, and this is more specific to the question of the member for The Pas (Mr. Lat hlin), there are 38 of those communities who have elected councils which we app oint. I, as minister under the act, have the authority to administer their communiti es. Eleven of those communities are on what we call the block funding method.

They have advanced to the point where their funding comes in block fo nn, and they detennine how they are going to spend it within the block. The others still, by and large, work with the department. On the block funding, also I should point out that they are funded quarterly . They re ceive their money in quarterly payments , but it still comes in block fo rm. We have fo ur communities that we are curre ntly working with which are moving tow ards incorporation. Mr. Lathlin: So 11 out of 38 councils have elected, and then out of that 38, 11 are funded by way of block funding. Mr.

Acting Deputy Olairperson, for those who are being fun ded thro ugh the block funding process, what flexibility do they have in terms of deciding where expenditures are to be made? Also, in their planning proce ss, what flexibility do they ha ve? Mr. Praznik: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, within the amount of money assigned to them, the money is provided unconditionally so that they can set the priorities within their community, how they are going to spend that amount of mon ey. We provide the regular audit and supervision and assistance roles in providing advice .

I am sure, as the mem ber can ap preciate, for many of these communiti es, it is developing the ability and the expertise , and it takes time. We have been working at it a number of years, but at least we have been, I think, making some pretty good progress over the last decade and a half. •

(1540) Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Acting Deputy Chaitperson, what sort of ex penditures then would these block-funded communities get into? In other words, what responsibilities do they have when they are in that block-fun ding mode? Mr. Praznik: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chaitperson, they would have pretty muc h the regular responsibilities of a municipality, which would be water and sewer, whe ther that would be a pump-out station or sewer line , maintaining and constructing those; se wage lagoon, if it is necessary, or a sewage plant; str eets, street maintenance ; disposal of garbage; street lighting; public works garage ; fire service ; recreation; and of course, their own administration. So it would be the regular array of responsibilities that any municipality would take on. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairpe rson, what about the remaining, besides the 11?

I believe -

- June 14, 1994 LEGISLA11VE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3521 the minister said some thing like 56 Northern Affairs communities, 38 councils are elected, 11 being in block funding. What about the remainder? How do they operate ? Mr. Pramik: Mr. Acting Deputy Cbaitperson, the others which are not in block funding and have elected councils operate to about the same degree, in about the same manner , except the monies are held in trust by the department.

So they are not turned over for specific administrati on, but the bills are paid by the department Depending on the degree of development of those communities , they by and large set their priorities with the department and we administer the money. In those areas where we have very, very small populations, the department carries out the administration. I tbink we have some communities with two or three people, so one can appreciate that you are not going to have the sa me kind of municipal structure. (Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Clair) Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Deputy Chair, a while ago the minister alluded to training.

I am quite fa miliar with the Northern Affairs communities. I just wanted to have the minister describe the training and development component of the funding that he provides to Northern Affairs communities . He says that we have been working on these communities for a long time, and we have a long way to go. There is a lot of training that is required. When I look at the budget of Northern Affairs, all of $19 milli on, and it is divided up, you know, so much percentage of that goes into community opera tions, regional services and grants and so on.

How much money would be allocated for training then in view of this? The need for training that is requir ed, obviousl y, there are 11 out of 56 communities that are block funded. The rest, I guess, are more or less being looked after by the Department of Northern Affairs. Mr. Praznik: Yes, I do not want to leave the impression with the member that those who do not receive block funding are looked after.

I guess that comment is open to such a differe nce of opinion as to what that means, because some of those communities are quite happy to have an elected council to set their priorities and have those dollars placed in trust with the department and worlc out arran gements on bow things are going to be spent. We are talking about communities with often less than 100 people , 50 people in many cases . I do not want to leave the impression it is some paternalistic band that is gover ning these departments .

We have very good field staff who worlc regularly worlcing through issues, and if you are only 50 or 60 people in a community, many of whom are related to one another, it is not the same dynamic in establishing an elected municipal council and moving into a municipal situation. I can tell the member that in having discussions with the Northern Association of Community Councils, many of whose executive come from those types of communities, that has not been raised as a particular issue. They have bad a good worlcing relationship with the department.

Again, it is the size of the communities that creates a different dynamic. I can tell the member in answ ering his question more specifically that we budget about $46,000 for training programs, plus the time and worlc of our field staff. In some of the training worlcsbops or programs that we have run are the mayors and councillors institute program in bow to conduct meetings and operate a council, the Community Clerk workshop for the cler ks in those communitie s, budget review, waste and waste water school on how to deal with that particular issue.

We have sponsored a firefighters rodeo with the help of the fire commissi on and mutual aid for firefighters, public works workshops , recreation directors workshops and , in 1994-95 , in this coming year, we are planning a system worlcsbop with the NACC Board of Directors . Again, the budget review , again, the Mayor and Councillors Instit ute, again Public Worlcs' Worlcsbo ps, Oeik Committee Works hops, Constable Training is another program we have added this year, again the fire f ighters ' rod eo, and we will be also supporting sending some of our fire chiefs to the Conference of Manitoba Assoc iation of Fire

3522 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 14, 1994 Chiefs where there is a fa ir bit of discussion and training going on for those people . Mr. Latblin: Mr. Deputy Chair, the point I was getting at was, yes, I realize that a lot of these comm unities, the population is not there, some are 50, 100, but there are others that may number at least 1,000 peop le. Even those, there are not many of them .

The point I was trying to make with the minister was one would think that , because of this state of deve lopment that the Northern Af fairs communities are in, 11 out of 56 communities being in block funding, the training component would be one of the bigger items. I say that with the experience that we have on the treaty side. One of the priorities that we as treaty Indian people had to set was training, training, training, training. We know that that takes a lot of money.

If the Department of Northern Affairs is going to assist in the attainment of local self-government, I would respectfully submit to the minister that there needs to be, I do not know about fast-tracking, but certainly a lot more resources could be allocated to training if in fact we are pursuing the goal of local self-government . Mr. Pramik: Well, a number of points . I can recognize fully what the member from 1be Pas is saying. I disagree somewhat that it has to be an expensive process.

I guess one of the things that I have come to learn in both the Department of Labour and the Department of Northern Affairs, and it is really a tribute to some of the people who work in those departmen ts, is the ability to stretch a dollar and get things done for a much more limited amount of money. We can all bring our anecdotes to the table and that is what that turns into. I certainly appreciate what the member is saying .

I guess one has to talk about the goals a little bit for a moment, because I do believe that there is a diff erence in the goal here for self-administration than what we are talking about with First Nations , where his experience has bee n. The reason I say that is because when we are talking about self -government on First Nations , it is a much broader are a of responsibility and jurisdiction than what we are talking about in these communities. Here we are talking really about just the municipal side.

It has also been pointed out to me by staff that over the last fe w years we have had a lower rate of turnover of our employees or people who are employed with these community governments . So the need to put people through courses has not been there. I would say probably the slowest part of developing this municipal self -government in these communities has not been a lack of training. It has just been the people in the community develo ping a comf ort level wher e they are , particularly in the smaller communities.

In the larger ones they have been moving to block funding , and comfortable with that, and often asking the question som etimes, and it is a very realistic one, why would we want to take the next step to go to a full municipality because then we get into a host of taxing issu es, and the lik e, which to some degree act as a bit of a break on the system ? •

(1550) So the experience I have had in talking with NACC and being brief ed by the dep artment, and being in some of those communities over the winter, was that the desire to move ahead to be full municipalities is not all that strong. In the communities where it is, and there are a couple in particular, four who are getting ready, even those fo ur who are in that stream there is a reluctance in a couple of them to say, why do we want to do that, why do we want to move into this, because then we are going to be talking about the levying of local taxes and other things.

It is a much different situation than I think the experience in the First Nations , and that might be why there is a diff erence. I have been assured, and the sense I get from NACC is that there is a comf ort level with what is being done in moving things fo rward. Quite frankly, I do not fo resee the day when all of those communities will be municipalities. I think if we have three or fo ur or five or 10 who inevitably become municipalitie s, I would think that would be probably the largest -

- June 14, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3523 number. Most of them will still continue to be Northern Affairs communities and governing with either local councils or under some trusteeship relationship or with block funding. If that is where those communities are comfortable and that is the way things work most efficiently, why would one want to change that if the people there are comf ortable with that level.

I just point out to the member as well, I had the inte resting situation this year of repealing one of the Orders-in-Council that created a council in a comm unity because the population of that community was small , it was the 50-60 range . They had wanted a council, we had passed the Order s-in-Council, created a council, and then they found that it was just not really where they wanted to be, that they were having difficulty with the elections and the like , and so they asked us to remove that Order-in-Council and return to where we just appointed the person they chose locally to be the contact person.

So, again, that was what the comm unity wanted, and if that is the comf ort level and it worlcs, that is where we should probably be, I would suggest. Mr. Latblin: Mr. Deputy Chair, those are all of the quest ions I had on the objective or the statement on the ob jective, unless there are any questions. Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples) : I would like to ask a question about Buff alo Point First Nation correspondence sent to the Ftrst Minister, and I believe a copy was sent to this minister, in regards to a proposal on taxation resource sharing.

I am wondering if I could know what the government 's response was to this correspondence sent to them on April 28, 19 94, from John Thunder, the band manager. ·Mr . Pramik: To the member for the Maple s, I do not think he was here when we had agreed and his party representa tive, the member for Osborne , had agreed that we would be dealing with the blocks under the Estimates, and we are curre ntly on the Local Government Development section, which is the 56 Norther n Affairs comm unities we administer.

We will be getting on to the Native Affairs area where that is most appropriate a little later on, and I will answ er it then. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: I thank the honourable member. The honourable member for Selkirk, and we are dealing with the Local Government Development right now under 19.2. Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkir k): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I want to ask some questions about the Selkir k Regional Office. I noticed that it received close to $90,000 less in funding between '93-94 and '94-95 . I want to ask the minis ter, why was there such a large reduction in the funding to the Selkirk Regional Office? Mr.

Praznik: I am advised that the particular reason exactly is because we have eliminated one position in that office. What had happened here, for the interests of the member for Selkirk, was the person who had filled that position had been away on sick leave or disability leave for over two years , and, in the course of those two years, it was found that we really did not need to fill that particular position, that others had picked up the workload, et cetera, and so was part of this . I think the person has moved onto other disability programs, could not come back to woik, has gone onto pension.

In this yea r's budget process, when one has a position that is not filled by a person, the person has moved on, and that the workload has been dispersed among others , and it was fo und after two years that you, quite frankly, do not need that position, that is an excellent position to remove in the budget process because you are not affe cting an individual or a service delivery. That is why that, in fa ct, happened. Mr. Dewar: That one individual was receiving $90,000? Mr.

Pramik: No, but I am sure the member who spoke about Bill 22 days regularly and other cost-saving measures that this gove rnment has taken on could do the calculations to realize that other savings on the staff lines had been fo und that I would point out to him have kept other people working who otherwise would not be. Mr. Dewar: What fu nction did that single employee perform?

3524 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 14, 1994 Mr. Pramik: That person was a co-ordinator who co-ordinated the work in various communities , and supported training and administrative on a one-on-one basis, but the job of that particular person, it was fo und that others in the department out of that office could have picked up the work responsibilities and amalgamate them into their own job. Quite ftankly, it was a position that was not needed. Mr. Dewar: What communities does this office serve in Selkirk? Mr.

Praznik: This of fice ser vices the communities along the east side of Lake Wmn ipeg and several in the north Interlake , 22 communities in total. Mr. Dew ar: My final question to the minister is, how does this minister expect this office to perform its functions, which is to serve the individuals within these 22 communities when he cuts the budget by over 20 percent? Mr.

Praznik: First of all, I have to tell the honourable member that I have been in the Selkirk office, I have met with the staff, I had veey good discussion with the st aff, and they did not raise the issue that they were understaf fed or could not handle their responsibilitie s. In fact, they were a veey enthusiastic group ofpeop1e. I meet regul arly with the Northern Association of Community Councils that represent those communities that are serviced by the department. I have had no complaints about lack of service about the office.

The fa ct of the matter is, while the individual who occupied this position was away on sick leave for two years, which meant I could not fill the position, the work was done by others and to the satisfaction of our clients. Quite frankly, life has gone on, and neither the clients nor the people delivering the service are-the only person who seems to have a problem with it is the member for Selkirk. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Deputy Chair, I would like to ask on (c), The Pas Region. We went from 230 to 182. Was that another case of a person who had not been on the job for a year? •

(1600) Mr. Pramik: First of all, I should tell the member for The Pas that there are seven communities serviced out of The Pas office . There was a shuffle of staff. The regional director for that particular area was transferred to the Selkirk office, moved into Selkirk, and the community co-ordinator in The Pas office was promoted to the re gional manager of that office and, of course, creating a vacancy in her old position. Consequently, it was fel t, as we worked through the budget proce ss with our staff , that position was not really needed and could be handled by others.

So that position, as a vacancy, was done away with in this budget. Mr. Lathlin: So a lot of people , I should tell the people , I should advise those workers they are not to go on holidays; they are not to go on sick. On the (

a) part, Mr. Deputy Chair, perhaps I could ask the minister to just go through that list for us. Well, first of all, I wanted to know why we went from 74 to 90 under Other Expenditure s, I believe that is under Other Expenditure s. Then the Grants part, the Recreation Directors ' Program, maybe he could expand a little bit on that to explain what the Grants are all about and the Recreation Directors ' Program, how many people are employed and just give a general explanation as to the nature of the program . Mr. Pramik: We will deal with these one at a time.

With respect to the Other Expenditures , item 19.2 (a)(2}, that is rent for our off ice in the Thompson provincial government buildin g. As the member may be aware , during the budget process we ha ve gone to a full cost recovery to Government Services on space we rent, which has had I think the push of making departments really evaluate the space that they need to carey on their operations . So our administrators now take that into account when planning their workloads . We reorganized in that office. We actually took on less space, but cost of the space went up, and that is where the diff erence is there .

On (5}, Grants , the $258,900, that is our grant to the Northern Association of Community Coun cils, which is a co- ordinating body for all 56 communities that we work with, and who has -

June 14, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3525 taken on a pretty significant role in co-OJ:dinating and prioritizing the needs and wants of the 56 communities. It has given us a body to work with to develop a common policy and priorities with those communities. The Re creation Direct ors ' Program is the salaries for 13 employees of the Community Councils who provide recreation co-ordination in these various communitie s.

It is a very important pr ogram, and if I can say this to the member, I am sure that be has been lobbied and certainly the member for Rupertsl and has probably been lobbied with respect to the salary levels of those · people. I know that they do their work for a very minimal amount of money. If there was one area in the salary side of this department I wish that I had some greater ability to accommodate, it would be certainly in that one. Regrettably I do not have that ability at this time, but I am certainly aware of that issue.

I say this for the member for Rupertsland, there is one individual in particular, I know the work that he does and the salary that he is paid, and the community and the province are getting a bargain. I am aware of the problem , and we are trying to struggle with some way to resolve it. Mr. Latblin: How does the minister allocate the grants to NACC? Mr. Praznik: Mr.

Deput y Chair, within that allocation there is appro ximately $20,000 for Whispering Pines, which is their publication, in support of their publication which they send to the residents of all these communities as an inform ation circular, as a newsletter. As I am sure the member can app reciate, there is not really a vehicle of communica tion for most of these communities because they are in committee newspaper ranges, but nothing that ties them together. Also included in that is the $80 0 fee per community which is the member ship fe e to NACC. So in essence we pick that up for the commun ities.

So 50-some communities who are members of -I do not think Warrens Landing is a member of that community , but those communities that are, we pick up the $800 fee, so that is how it is channe led through the communities to NACC. I am kind of happy with that system because what it means ultimately is that if a community fee ls that NACC is not doing a job in co-ordinating that, they have some input in pulling some money out of NACC, and it keeps NACC, I think , more responsible to its membership as opposed to just receiving a straight grant from the province and not having some financial tie to its community .

So it seems to have worked well. We pay the money quarterly, it flows quarterly. Mr. Latblin: What I was interested in knowing was, is there a fo rmula that the department uses in the allocation of the grant? How does the department determine , for example, bow much money would go to NACC? Mr. Pramik: No, there is not a particular fo rmula. I guess it works on tradition, past practice and current budget requirements. One should just point out that NACC works as a co-ordinating unit. That mo ney is not part of their capital budget or program delivery or cost, I should say, in the individual communiti es.

It depends on what they are taking on and what we can spare in our budget and a lot of give and take . •

(1610) Mr. Latblin: That is all I have in that area. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 2. Local Government Development (

a) Regional and Operational Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $231 ,800--pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $90, 600- pass;

(3) Community Operations $4 ,723 ,1 00- pass ;

(4) Re gional Ser vices $692,300--pass;

(5) Grants $258 ,900-pass;

(6) Recreation Directors ' Program $317 ,700-pass. 2. (

b) Thompson Region

(1) Sala ries and Employee Benefits $4 10 ,700-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $151 ,300-pass. 2.(

c) The Pas

(1) Sa la ries and Employee Benefits $18 2,300-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $89,600-pass. 2.( d

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-5-47
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 5th hansardpdf 47.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e5a7b4e75cbd5a16a1edb9e05538fda3ba7ec990

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