Manitoba Hansard — 20 March 1997 (Sitting 14, 36th Legislature, 3rd Session)

36-3-14

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVII No. 14-1:30 p.m., Thursday, March 20, 1997

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROC AN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY Thirty-sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C.

P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. PC . P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

663 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA Thur sday, March 20, 1997 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Gang Action Plan Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Mohamed Alli, Sayid Alii, Norman Dell and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) to consider using this action plan, an 18-point plan to deal with gang crime as a basis for provincial policy on organized criminal gangs. Mobile Screening Unit for Mammograms Ms.

Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Sandra Brading, Sharon Cocks, Lucille Bell and others requesting that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to consider immediately establishing a mobile screening unit for mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity. Mr.

Stan Struthers (Dauphin): I beg to present the petition of Virginia Jamieson, Ken McCartney, Betty Findla y and others requesting that the Legisla tive Assembly of Manitoba request the Min ister of Health to consider immedia tely establishing a mobile screening unit for mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity. Ms.

Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): I beg to present the petition of Ellen Pass, Kay Dee Graham, Kandice Sedgwick and others requesting that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the Minister of Health to consider immediately establishing a mobile screening unit for mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, it is my pl easure to table the Third Annual Report of the Child ren's Advocate for the year ending March 31, 1996. Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): I am pl eased to table Volume 4 of the Public Accounts for 1995-96. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon forty four Grade 9 students from Linden Christian School under the direction of Mr. Darryl Rempel. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable First Minister (Mr. Film on). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Home Oxygen Supply Service Rimer Alco Contract Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. Yesterday, we tabled the final report of the steering committee, made up of health experts, which made one recommendation on the awarding of a contract. On 20 occasions yesterday the Minister of Health, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) and the Premier (Mr. Film on) stated that there were, quote, two acceptable bids, two qualified bidders.

Madam Speaker, we have heard from representatives and experts on the health committee in the past, and today we have quoted in the Free Press that it is not a situation where either candidate is acceptable. It is unanimous that the one company is head and shoulders above the other company that was awarded the bid.

664 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 20, 1997 I would like to ask the Premier whom should we believe, the Premier or the members of the committee that are speaking out on behalf of the quality of this contract, Madam Speaker. *

(1335) Hon. Darren Pramik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I think we should believe the committee which indicated that there were two bidders that were successful on quality. That was what the committee's mandate to do was, to identifY the bidders who could meet the quality requirements. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, yesterday in a CBC newscast, a committee member stated that Rimer A leo had access to confidential health reports prior to the other companies receiving same. Has the minister investig ated this all egation, and can he report back to the people of Manitoba on this part of the process? Mr.

Praznik: Once again in checking all egations that members of the New Democratic Party have brought to this House, in checking with staff in my department, I have no reason to believe at all that the allegation is correct, Madam Speaker. It is not correct. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, we have talked to a number of patients, and we have talked to Mrs. Tait who is the wife of an elderly patient that relies on this Oxygen Therapy Program. Many patients are telling us that they do not want to change the service that they are getting.

They do not want this government to award contracts to people that they favour at the expense of their health care and the quality of their health care. I would like to ask the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) has the government considered the care and quality of care for patients when it has awarded this contract to a company that the health care committee, the internal committee, has stated that this company has absolutely no experience in the field? Are you surprised that patients are worried about the quality of patient care on this very vital home care service? Mr.

Pramik: Madam Speaker, think about the impl ication of what the Leader of the Opposition is saying. He is saying that no one should ever change a contract provider because that provider has provided the service in the past. It is absolutely ludicrous. The process on many of these things in health care where we are contracting-and, by the way, we have contracted for oxygen in the past; it is not necessarily a new issue. But the fact of the matter is, to make sure that whatever standard of care is required, that the bidders are able to meet that standard and then we look at the monetary costs of that contract.

If they cannot meet the standard. their envelope on the monetary side should not even be looked at. We have done that with respect to home care, in this case as wel l. The same arguments. by the way, were used against Rimer Al co when they came into Manitoba as a small company bringing an established United Kingdom technology here. The same arguments were used, and the fact is they have delivered in the hospitals and saved taxpayers 34 percent of the cost of oxygen. Home Oxygen Supply Service Rimer Alco Contract Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, is the Minister of Health saying that he is prepared to risk the health of some 800 Manitobans on a company that has never ever in Canada or the United States delivered this service to vulnerable people in their homes, which is not simply hard equipment that is being plu gged in? It is patient education, education of caregivers; it is technical advice. Is he saying he is prepared to risk that to a company that has absolutely no track record of del ivering this service and has no staff with any track record? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): If we adopted that phil osophy, we would never get into using nurses to do more work in health care. We would not be looking at using-m idwifery, we would never get into because it is something new and there may not be a track record in Manitoba. So, Madam Speaker, you would never have change or improvement in the system if you adopted that kind of phil osophy in del ivering service. Rimer Alco, the same arguments were used against them when they brought the oxygen concentrators into our province, and they have been extremely successful.

Members opposite have never raised, to my knowledge, a complaint about that service. They have reduced the cost of oxygen.

March 20, 1997 LEGISLAT IVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 665 This committee has indicated, and I know in the minutes in checking through this, that they clearly did meet the quality requirements. The member for Crescentwood also forgets that the sister company of Rimer Alco has done this same kind of work in the United Kingdom I understand for many years, so there is a track record. *

(1340) Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, I want to give the Minister of Health the opportunity to quote from this document. I would like to ask him to quote from the final minutes of the Home Oxygen Therapy committee program meeting, the final report. I would like him to quote from it any reference to the equality of Rimer Alc o or even its appropriateness for being considered as a contractor. Let him find one phrase, one recommendation, from his committee's report. Will he do that? Find a phrase. Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, I think if you read the document, the committee may have indicated a preference, but it was a preference of two companies that they considered. The committee considered five c?mpanies. Three of them are not there because they did not meet the quality requirements. The prime task of that committee was to determine which of the proponents were able to meet the quality requirements and they elimi nated three and included two. Their preference was a recommendation but on price on a two-year contract Rimer Alco was the lesser-cost bidder and was awarded the contract. Mr.

Sale: Madam Speaker, let the record show that he absolutely avoided the question or refused to- Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for Crescentwood that on a suppl ementary question it requires no

preamble or no postamble. Mr. Sale: Thank you, Madam Speaker. A very simple question: Has the contract been signed or not? Mr. Praznik: Yes, Madam Speaker. Louisian a-Pacific Environmental Contamination Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, people in the Swan River Valley are very concerned that aspen bark and chips are being removed from the L-P yard and deposited in sensitive areas, which is in contravention ofL-P's licence. Even though many people have called the department raising this concern, no action has been taken.

Can the Minister of Environment tell us why no action has been taken on this sensitive matter? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Environment): We will provide the honourable member with that information, Madam Speaker. Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, can the minister tell this House whether he believes that it is acceptable to dump these wastes on riverbanks even though we have been told that this substance is harmful to aquatic life and these rivers will soon be overflooding into lakes? Is it acceptable to put this waste on riverbanks? �r ..

McCrae: If the company is in any way exceeding Its ltcence, I would indeed be concerned and would take corrective action. Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, I thank the minister for that answer, and I ask him if he will immediately send staff to the Swan River Valley to look into this matter and ensure that wastes that have been put in sensitive areas such as riverbanks are removed but not at the expense of taxpayers. Mr. McCrae: The question is essentially the same as the first question and the answer is the same. Eaton's Store Closures Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Indu stry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I am tabling a letter that I was asked to table yesterday for the member for Wellin gton (Ms. Barrett).

666 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 20, 1997 Personal Care Homes Public Inquiry Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, in the last week we have had another dozen individuals contact us regarding concerns regarding patient care at personal care homes. The minister's response was to say, write to me the minister, phone me the minister, talk to me the minister and that will solve your problems, but that has been done by many of these people.

That was done by us in the fall regarding Hol iday Haven, and there was no adequate follo w-up on our complaints until someone had to get, unfortunately, killed in a nursing home. My question for the minister is will the Minister of Health today do what the previous Minis ter of Health did in the home care crisis in 1993, and set up an independent panel or board that will hear compl aints regarding personal care home service, so individuals will be assured that someone will be there to li sten to them other than the minister's office? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, first of all, with respect to the

preamble of the member's question, there is an inquest being conducted by the Medical Examiner, and I think in fairness to everyone involved, before one judges the cause of the death, we should wait for that result. With respect to the question, Madam Speaker, the particular point the member makes is an excellent one. In fact, I am already working with my department to consider options to do ju st that. Holiday Haven Nursing Home Public Inquest Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, can the minister explain to this House why the instructions with respect to the inquest are so narrow, and in fact say-determine what measures could be taken to prevent a death occurring in similar circumstances? In other words, they are so narrow they only deal with the particular incident of that death at Hol iday Haven and will not deal with all of the other concerns regarding patient care at Hol iday Haven and other personal care homes. *

(1345) Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): The member's question is probably more properly put to the Chief Medical Officer who ordered the inquest. I am not part, nor are ministers part of writing that particular framework, but from what I understand in the contact we have had with that office, that term of reference includes determining the circumstances surrounding the death of that individual, address concerns regarding safety of elderly persons in personal care homes, as well as to determine what measures could be taken to prevent a death in similar circumstances.

So I think the member should put his one point in the context of the three. Personal Care Homes Public Inquiry Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, my final supplem entary to the minister: can the minister give assurances to this House today, since he has already indicated that he is considering some kind of framework, that every individual in Manitoba who is concerned about care in a personal care home both in the past and in the future, will have an opportunity to have their concerns heard by an independent body and have those issues dealt with by the government, so we do not have to go down the road of inquest after inquest? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I certainly want to be able to very shortly give a process to this House. I know one critical piece of that-that some work yet has to be done-is a process for dealing with complaints within facili ties I think as a mandated part of their operation. We also have to have some means of dealing with compl aints where there is not a satisfactory resolution of them. I know the previous Minister of Health, in the area of home care, developed an excellent model that I think has worked well.

Whether we use that particular board, whether we find another, or options that I am considering right now, but I think it is very evident and I agree with the member, to give Manitobans a sense of security we need to have some process for dealing with complaints and some independent way of sorting it out between compl ainants and the facility.

March 20, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 667 Home Oxygen Sup ply Service Rimer Alco Contract Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, yesterday I asked the Minister of Health if the Rimer Alco deal was in fact signed. The day prior I was of the impression that the agreement was not signed by the minister. My question specific to the minister is when was the deal between Rimer Alco and his department actually signed? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Yes, the final signature was yesterday. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr.

Lamoureux: I would ask the Premier will he acknowledge that this is indeed the height of arrogance? How can the government, given the controversy over this issue, when it had the option to be able to review this legitimately-the Premier himself had the opportunity to look into this case, did not take the time to investigate the case. Instead they signed the agreement yesterday. How do you have the tenacity to see this agreement signed just yesterday? Why did this Premier not take action and look into the agreement itself? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Speaking of tenacity, the reasons obviously should be clear to everyone that members opposite for three days have brought forward questions and allegations that required several ministers of the govemment to go back and review step by step every aspect of the decision that was made with respect to awarding of a contract to Rimer Alco. What we found in going back step by step was members opposite alleged that the bonding requirements had been changed, and examination found out they were wrong. They had not; they were exactly as they were in the tender process.

Members opposite alleged that Rimer Alco was found not to be a qualified bidder in terms of their ability to provide the service. We examined that very carefully, found out they were wrong. The committee acknowledged that they were one of two qualified bidders who were capable of providing the service. Members opposite alleged that they were not the low bidder. We examined it carefully, found out they were the low bidder. They were wrong again, opposite.

So, under all those circumstances, having had several different ministers examine the process, we found out that every single allegation they made was wrong, Madam Speaker, and in fact the only correct way to respond to this tender process was to award the contract to the lowest qualified bidder who was able to be bonded for the process. Having examined and confirmed that that was the case, the contract was awarded. * (135 0) Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, did the Premier himself review this case before the actual document was signed, and if so, will the Premier tell this House who ultimately was responsible for overtuming this particular decision, recommendation, from the committee? Which minister is going to have the courage to stand up and take responsibility for that overtuming of that recommendation? Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, there was no overturning done. There is a requirement in the actions of government for us to award contracts in keeping with a proper tender process.

That means the lowest qualified bidder, and that is exactly what happened in this case. Now you can imagine what we would have gone through in this House if we had not awarded it to the lowest bidder, if we had in fact ignored a qualified bidder who was actually the low bidder, as well who happened to be also a Manitoba-based company. What would members opposite be doing? They would be going nuts in this House, saying to us, how on earth could you not give it to the lowest qualified bidder who is a Manitoba company; what is wrong with you? That would have been their tack.

Madam Speaker, we have taken it through the examination in accordance with the questions asked, and we have been satisfied that indeed it met all of the requirements.

668 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 20, 1997 Point of Order Mr. Lamoureux: Beauchesne's is indeed quite clear in terms of that the Premier-and the honourable Premier knows that the answer should be somewhat brief and address the question posed. The question that was posed was: was the Premier aware prior to the agreement being signed and did he review it? That was the actual question: was he aware of it? I would appreciate he answer the question, not necessarily bafflegab around the question. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Inkster does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts.

Home Oxygen Supply Service Rimer Alco Contract Ms. Marianne Cerilli {Radisson): Madam Speaker, the Minister of Health has just confirmed that this government had the gall to sign this contract just yesterday. I want to ask the minister: can he confirm that his department Home Care Branch had released confidential records to Rimer Alco before they signed this contract on Tuesday? Hon. Darren Praznik {Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I am not quite sure what point the member is making. In the process such as this, you know, obviously the parties were informed who would be receiving the contract.

The bidders who were not successful have taken their efforts to attack the particular process. The department begins work with the successful bidder; the paperwork of completing the contract moves through the system. Is the member alleging that there has been some improper use of records, some improper use that they have been given to someone who was not to be the successful bidder? Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Radisson, with a supplementary question. Ms.

Cerilli: Madam Speaker, I am asking the Minister of Health to confirm, as we have the information, that Rimer Alco had access to the Department of Health Home Care records on Tuesday prior to signing this contract yesterday, which was Wednesday. Can he confirm that to the House today? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I am not going to confirm that statement. We have allegation upon allegation coming to this House that prove-not being looked at. I still fail to see the great issue that the member is attempting to raise here. *

(1355) Ms. Cerilli: Madam Speaker, I believe that in due course that is the fact and it will be confirmed. I want to ask a supplementary to the minister. Is it not true that the Minister of Health held off in signing this agreement until yesterday because of pressure put on him by the industry, from the community, and he has only signed this contract yesterday because he knows that his department has issued these confidential records from Home Care to this company? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, in the life of a Minister of Health in this province, with all of the work and paper that passes my desk, I can tell you in the last fe\v days in dealing with issues related to personal care homes and some of the issues we talked about earlier in Question Period. with the work intendance in this Assembly. this particular document was walked over to my office yesterday for completion of that work because of the scheduling of when it could be signed. to have it in and signed so operation can take over on the expected date.

None of the allegations, untoward comments or any of the other things the member tries to make to appear something ill has happened are just not true. Home Oxygen Supply Service Patient Records Confidentiality Mr. Dave Chomiak {Kildonan): One of the fundamental difficulties the public has with the government's privatization role is that confidential patient records are becoming accessible to private companies.

It is clear in this instance, before the contract was even entered into, before there was even protection for individuals regarding their confidentiality records, confidential information was provided to a company that the contract was not even signed for. How does the minister explain this issue, in light of the fact that confidentiality is one of the crucial

March 20, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 669 problems with respect to contracting out by this government to their private friends? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the confidentiality of people's health records is very important to all of us. That is why this government will be introducing legislation to protect that information. It becomes all the more important as we get into the age of high technology.

I think members should appreciate, in any contracting process when you have entered into a bidding process and you have a successful bidder, you have the documents in which you are preparing. There is a transition period in which you are planning to gear them up. Documents are being signed and being put into place. They are the successful bidder. They are covered by the legal requirements of confidentiality. There is a transition going over in which to do it.

Somehow in their desire to make an issue, they are trying to imply that the Ministry of Health cannot get into a transition with a successful bidder to deliver a service to Manitobans. This is, quite frankly, silly. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, is the minister not concerned that the patient records of 800 patients, including 30 children, were given to a private company that the minister had not even signed the contract for, on a contract that was controversial from the very start, on a contract the minister held off signing because he had concerns?

Is the minister not concerned that it, in fact, is not only wrong but may, in fact, be illegal? *

(1400) Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I would be very concerned if the Ministry of Health was giving out confidential information on patients to people for whom we were not in a contractual or entering into contractual relationship to deliver a service. That is not what has happened here. Madam Speaker, as in many things with government, once the bid was accepted, certain legal obligations were imposed on the parties in putting that together. There is a transition. The normal administrative work of completing and signing agreements takes time as we move it through the system.

What is important with Rimer Alco taking on that service is that the people receiving it, that the flow of information takes place so that we can have a successful implementation of this particular service. That is what it is about. Surely to goodness, members are not saying that the officials in the Department of Health were wrong because they got on with the job. Some Honourable Members: Patients have rights. Mr. Praznik: Well, members opposite say patients have rights. They do; they have a right to receive the service. Immigration Policy Income Means Test Mr.

George Hickes (Point Douglas): Madam Speaker, my questions are for the Minister responsible for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. Once again the federal government has based recent changes to immigration laws on the Toronto experience. The new law will apply mostly to the sponsorship of parents and grandparents. In Manitoba, the cost of social assistance due to sponsorship breakdown is extremely small. By and large, parents and grandparents live with the sponsoring family and contribute economically to the family, to the community and to Manitoba as a whole.

The new requirement to use an income means test for immigrants shows once again that a means test is simply meanspirited. My question is will the minister, given that our immigration population contributes to our economy and to the social fabric of Manitoba, write to the federal minister to oppose these changes. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Madam Speaker, as the member knows, my colleague the former Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship did in fact write to the federal minister very much opposed to any increase in the income-level requirement. As I understand it

670 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 20, 1997 now, the changes are stable income for over a 12-month period. The member is quite right in saying that this is very much aimed at Ontario and particularly Toronto and that Manitoba has, I understand, a default rate of less than 1 percent. So I will want to very carefully look at any impact on Manitobans because we very, very much support family unification, and in fact, in the Canada Manitoba immigration agreement signed by my colleague on behalf of our province, family reunification is noted.

So I share the member's concern, that we would like no effect on immigration in Manitoba. Mr. Hickes: I thank the minister for her response. Will the minister, given that sponsorship of family members was already severely restricted in 1992, recommend that the federal minister drop any proposed changes that involve income means test on Manitoba immigrants? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker. our signing of the Canada-Manitoba immigration agreement does allow us to have discussions with the federal minister to make our concerns well known to them.

So I will be taking opportunities on behalf of our province, especially to again restate our commitment the area of family reunification and that commitiT'. : noted within our agreement. Manitoba Hydro Privatization Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St James): My questions are to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) The president of Manitoba Hydro today confim . in the committee dealing with Manitoba Hydro tr · •.tpcoming changes will allow for competition for Mamtoba Hydro's retail customers, exactly the condition the Premier referred to yesterday in this Chamber as a precondition for him to consider the sale of Manitoba Hydro.

When the Premier was wrong in regard to the time frame of deregulation and he was wrong again yesterday when he referred to retail competition, was he merely uninformed or was he deliberately misleading Manitobans? Will he stop using those weasel words and tell Manitobans the straights facts? Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for St. James that she used some very unparliamentary language. It has been ruled unparliamentary on several occasions-"deliberately misleading."' I wonder if l might ask her to withdraw those words. Ms. Mihychuk: I withdraw those words.

Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable member for St. James. Hon. David Newman (Minister char ged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Madam Speaker. the tone of the question is so different from what I thought was a very civilized meeting where reason prevailed that I find the transformation surprising. However, it is a mountain made out of a molehill. In my initial remarks at the standing committee on Tuesday. March 18. I indicated the very kind of competition which she must be referring to here today that the president of Manitoba Hydro spoke about.

He spoke about the theoretical kind of possibility of a thermal generating plant being created out of the supply of natural gas and then be hooked up to a major customer like I nco or Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting or a chemical plant in Brandon. Of course that is possible. and that kind of competition would be possible. That \vould be a kind of retail competition. Ms.

Mihychuk: Madam Speaker. my question to the Premier, since it is the Premier who has been making the comments about what are the conditions of privatization. will the Premier tell Manitobans today that he will take it to the people of Manitoba for a vote prior to any consideration of privatization? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, as I have said before, I believe that Manitoba Hydro is being very well managed, that it is operating very efficiently in public ownership and that I cannot see anything in the near future that would cause anybody to look at privatizing it.

Maybe New Democrats would want to privatize it, but we certainly do not intend to,

March 20, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 671 and we do not see it as being something that we would want to look at. If there was the kind of retail competition that would see them being able to- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the members opposite do not want to hear the answer. Historical Documents Private Acqui sition Ms.

Diane McGifford (Osborne) : Yesterday the minister responsible for Land Titles told us that historical documents were not for sale and yet in Headnotes and Footnotes, a publication of the Manitoba Bar Association, the expression "willing to sell" appears and prospective readers are advised to contact the Registrar General of Property Rights in the Department of Consumer Affairs. I would like to table this page. Madam Speaker, we are left with a web of inaccuracies, another case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing.

So I want to ask the Minister responsible for Consumer and Corporate Affairs to explain why the Registrar General of Property Rights is apparently privatizing historical documents while the minister says he-that is the minister-is not. Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, I thought I had made myself very clear yesterday, but I will say again for the benefit of the honourable member for Osborne- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, to complete his response. Mr.

Radcliffe: Neither the Land Titles Office nor this government take responsibility for any comments that are made in Headnotes and Footnotes. I can reassure my colleagues in this Chamber and the honourable member for Osborne that, as I stated yesterday, there are no public documents that are for sale, that in fact this was a solicitation from the Winnipeg Land Titles Of fice to solicit contributions from the private bar to frame and matte important documents which were in fear of being destroyed through age and to be displayed in the public domain. Thank you. Ms.

McGifford: Then I am wondering, Madam Speaker, why that famous "s" word "sell"-and not "salacious"-appears in the journal along with the phone number and the name of the Registrar General of Property Rights in the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Mr. Radcliffe: Madam Speaker, I will repeat some of the information that I have just put on the record, which is that Headnotes and Footnotes is a private publication put out by the members of the Manitoba Bar Association. It is not a government publication.

I would also point out to my honourable colleagues in this Chamber that when my honourable colleague and I discussed this matter yesterday, I invited her to phone the author of the information in the

article to confirm what I had said in this Chamber, and I would suggest that if she has not done that, that she do her homework in an appropriate fashion before she puts this sort of information before this Chamber to confuse the people of Manitoba. Thank you. *

(1410) Manitoba Economy Rate of Bankru ptcies Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance. The Minister of Finance continues to boast about how great the Manitoba economy is doing, using carefully selected various statistics. Can the Minister of Finance therefore explain to this House why business bankruptcies have increased in Manitoba in 1996 more than any other province? Why are we 10 out of 1 0? Why are we in the worst situation of any province in Canada with a 39.5 percent increase in bankruptcies? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I would encourage the member for Brandon

672 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 20, 1997 East to read the reports of the Toronto Dominion Bank that have been out in the last few days, the reports of Wood Gundy, Nesbitt Bums, all of the organizations that are saying nothing but positive things about Manitoba's economy and nothing but positive things about our finances. In fact, his own colleague the member for Crescentwood (Mr.

Sale), whom he should probably talk to, on CBC Radio the other day said in a period of record growth and jobs and employment, from his own colleague acknowledging the fine performance of Manitoba's economy- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): On a point of order, I believe Beauchesne's indicates that the answers to questions should be brief and to the point raised. The specific question is why is Manitoba 10 out of 10 in terms of bankruptcies and has the greatest increase in bankruptcies of anywhere in the country?

The minister is going on infocommercial that has no relation to the issue of bankruptcy as raised by the member for Brandon East. Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Kildonan, I would remind the honourable Minister of Finance that indeed his response should be specific to the question asked. * * * Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Finance, to respond to the question asked. Mr. Stefanson: I want to remind the member for Brandon East that we have just had five straight years of decline in business bankruptcies in Manitoba, the best record in all of Canada. Mr.

Leonard Evans: Madam Speaker, my question was, and I asked the minister, will the minister undertake to analyze 1996 where Manitoba was 10 out of 10, the worst situation of any province in terms of bankruptcies. What types of firms are especially involved? What are the causes of these bankruptcies? Why are we doing so poorly compared to the rest of the country? Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I just told the member for Brandon East that we have now, up until that year, had five straight years of decline in business bankruptcies in Manitoba, the best record of any province in Canada when it comes to consumer bankruptcies. In 1996, we had the best performance in all of Canada, so our record in that whole area Is outstanding in a relative sense within Canada. Today Manitoba's economy. as we all know. including the member for Crescentwood (Mr.

Sale). is performing amongst the best in all of Canada when it comes to job grov.th. grO\\th in retail sales. growth in exports. gro\\th in manufacturing shipments, growth in private sector capital investment. five straight years of the best performance in Manitoba and on track for its sixth record year and so our economy-in spite of all of the rhetoric from the member for Brandon East. I \Vould encourage him to talk to people in his community. I was out there Tuesday morning talking about the '97 budget and nothing but compliments about our financial situation and our economic situation.

In fact. his own chamber gave our budget a B-plus as an outstanding rating for the performance of this government. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS Internet Opportun ities Workshop Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Madam Speaker, do I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Pembina have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Dyck: Yesterday morning I, along with the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), had the opportunity to participate in an Internet Opportunities

March 20, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 673 Workshop held in Winkler. This event, organized by the Rural Advisory Committee, the Pembina Valley Development Corporation and Manitoba Rural Development, led participants through the exciting world of the information highway. The focus of the workshop was to show community members what a unique tool the Internet can be for the community. It also introduced participants to community round tables, the community access program and community Enterprise Development Centres on how the Internet can benefit these programs.

I want to thank all those community members who participated. I especially want to acknowledge the assistance of students from the Garden Valley Colle giate who served as experienced surfers and guided the small groups through the world of the Internet using a live computer connection. Without the support of sponsors such as Power Corp and MTS, this event would never have been the success it was. Their commitment to the betterment of rural Manitoba is admirable. I am confident that all participants found the workshop relevant and one more additional tool in discovering the potential that lies within each of us.

Thank you very much. Lyme Disease Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, do I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Crescentwood have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, I want to rise and pay tribute to an organization which has done a great deal of work over the last eight to 10 years to bring Manitobans' awareness of the severity and spread of Lyme disease in this province to public awareness. I have, with your permission, distributed a fact sheet which this group put together in consultation with Dr.

Guilfoyle in the public health area. They have pointed out that we now have a certified case of Lyme disease on a tick found on an animal in Winnipeg which was an animal that had not been outside of our city. So there is no question that the disease is present. I hope all honourable members will take the opportunity through various means to let their constituents know that this is a very serious but very curable disease. If it is caught in its early stages, it is relatively easily cured with a course of antibiotics.

If it is left to become a disease that becomes systemic, it is extremely hard to cure, but more importantly, it affects central nervous system organs and the heart and liver and can have very, very serious debilitating effects. *

(1420) I want to pay particular tribute to Elizabeth Wood, who is a victim of Lyme disease, and while I am not attributing any blame here, the medical community in Manitoba was not up to speed on this disease because it was rare. She was not diagnosed. She passed the disease on to her unborn child. Her child then was born with Lyme disease, and the family has gone through an extremely difficult time in coping with this disease.

They have also gone through a difficult time with the Lyme support group in getting agreement on the part of the medical community in Manitoba and the members of the public health field in Manitoba that this disease should be taken seriously and preventive measures should be taken. I am glad that the minister, I suppose through his Director of Public Health, Dr. Guilfoyle, has now made this a reportable disease. I commend him for that, but I am sorry that it took so long to persuade the department that this was a serious disease.

I would like to ask, Madam Speaker, if members opposite would consider, and I particularly ask the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro, Mr. Newman from Riel, if he would consider putting this information in the Hydrogram mailing so that all Manitobans could receive this information before the tick season begins this year. It will save families a lot of grief. It will save the Department of Health a great deal of expenditure because it is a very cheap disease to cure at its early stage and a devastatingly costly disease to cure when it becomes systemic.

So I ask the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro to consider that request, and I hope he will agree to put this information in the Hydrogram.

674 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 20, 1997 ORDERS OF THE DAY BUDGET DEBATE (Fifth Day of Debate) Madam Speaker: To resume adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the official opposition (Mr. Doer) in amendment thereto, and the proposed motion of the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) in further amendment thereto, standing in the name of the honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism, who has nine minutes remaining. Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Indust ry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, as happy as I am about this budget, I have to say I am as sad for the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) and what he tries to represent in this Legislature. In the some almost 20 years that I have been here, for some reason he has not changed, and I guess one would not expect him to change.

To come to the Question Period today-and I do want to spend just a minute on this-with one negative thing he has been able to find, but even that was on pretty shaky ground because I have heard him say time and time again that you cannot make any decisions or draw any conclusions from short-term indications and statistics, that you have to look at the longer term. The Minister of Finance's (Mr. Stefanson) answer today clearly pointed out where we stood in bankruptcies. It is unfortunate that any bankruptcy takes place, but in the five years prior to this, we in fact were probably the best in the country.

Again, they are too cute by half when you get the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) clearly stating on an open-line comment on a radio show that when our economy is performing so well-he was trying to be too cute by half. Again, Madam Speaker, they were caught in their own web of trying to be negative. Point of Order Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Point of order, Madam Speaker. The context of that quote is very important. I was commenting that in a time when the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson) was claiming record growth and record employment, he was also claiming that his revenues were falling, which is not a very credible comment. That is the context in which that comment was made. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Cresce ntwood does not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts. * * * Mr. Downey: WelL I think it is important. I will use a bit of my speech just to sort this out, because here is what he did say. This is a direct quote from the CBC Radio show.

He said-this is a direct quote-this is to the Minister ofF inance: he is trying to tell us that this year they are going to fall in a period of record growth and jobs and employment. Not credible. That is exactly what he said on CBC Radio-that we are going to have record growth and jobs and employment. Can you believe it? It is the first time since I have heard him in many years that he has been accurate in anything that he said publicly. So, Madam Speaker, again I have to make one quick comment about the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans).

You know, there is a story told many times about the young optimist who has dug through the bag of horse manure, hoping that there would be a pony in there someplace. Well, he has found the herd of horses, but he is looking through them to find the manure. That is really what the member for Brandon East-but it truly is. That is how negative he is that he just does not seem to be able to get the positives of life right.

In my comments yesterday-and I think it is important to repeat them because we are at an historic time in our history when this government and the members opposite have an opportunity to support this government and this budget for the young people of our country to start to pay back the debt that has been incurred on the backs of the people of Manitoba. What does it mean when young people decide in their lives what they want to do? It means that they can become part of the workforce. They can get a job

March 20, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 675 where governments are taking less taxes out of their pockets. It means that if entrepreneurs wants to start a business they are doing so in an environment that is less competitive than other areas because governments are less of a factor in their lives as it relates to pay. What does it mean for the seniors of this country? Again, I think it is important to repeat that the engine that drives the income for this country will be able to generate the wealth that gives us the health care, the personal care homes and all of those needs for our seniors.

It is the right thing to do. It covers a broad base of everyone in our society. It covers the people in the North; it covers the people in the south, in rural and in urban. I think it is important to point out that, as important as anything, it reinstills confidence in the people of Manitoba. What do I see on this side of the House when members speak? I see a pride in what we have been able to do, a pride and a confidence that we are on the right track. What do you hear when you go to the coffee shops? What do you hear when you visit the communities? You hear people talking optimistically.

An Honourable Member: When is the next election? Mr. Downey: The member for Concordia says: when is the next election? The next election will come in due course. However, we are sure that there will be a federal one before the next provincial one, and that will be a test, of course, of the philosophies of many people, many parties. Of course, I am not so sure-who is the Leader of the New Democratic Party? I kind of forget. [interjection] Oh, no. Stephen is old time now. Somebody else. This budget, Madam Speaker, truly is about the future of this province and what we want it to be.

We want the resources of this province to be responsibly used for the creation of wealth and jobs under a sustainable development principles. We want the health care to be preserved and protected and be able to make sure that we have the resources to fund those. What we do not need to do is continue to own things like the Manitoba when it is not in the public interest. Madam Speaker, I want to make one particular point, as I heard the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) and the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) say it is like selling your furniture when we sold the Manitoba. What a terrible analogy.

What it would be like doing would be selling your automobile if you needed to get to town. Well, the government does not need to own an automobile or does not have to buy automobiles for the people of Manitoba any longer. There are services available for us to communicate and do our work. Madam Speaker, it is not like selling our furniture. What we are doing is in those areas where government should be, we are. Where we do not have to any longer be, we are not and that is where it is at. It is not a philosophical bent with this government that we have to own the Manitoba .

I can assure you that members opposite can continue on as long as they like to-did nine minutes go that fast? I was just getting wound up again. Madam Speaker, so I have to say that I stand in this Legislative Assembly with a lot of pride, because I have been here for a considerable number of years. I, honest to goodness, did not realize that at some point in my political career I would have the chance to stand and vote to pay back money that was borrowed on behalf of the young people. I will again tell the members of the opposition and the member particularly from Point Douglas (Mr.

Hickes), who I know believes strongly in young people, who sees that there is a future for young people-it is his opportunity to stand and support those people, stand and support those young people so that they do not any longer have to see debt mounted on their backs, but he will not because he is blinded by the ideology of the members opposite. So the bottom line is this budget is very well rounded. It touches all of the right bases.

It does all of the right things and most importantly, and I say this most importantly, we have mastered-we are now on top of the debt that has been put on our backs by the governments of the past. We are going to be able to invest in health care facilities that we will be able to pay for with contributions from local communities. We will be able to put in place the tools that the business community needs to generate the wealth, and, again, it was spelled out.

We will be able to develop another labour-sponsored capital pool of funds which are needed for this country to grow and expand, for people to access capital through.

676 LEGISLATI VE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 20, 19 97 So, Madam Speaker, I am extremely proud and I say that genuinely today; I am extremely proud to support this budget, and I invite those opposite to reconsider it on behalf of the young people of this country, to do likewise. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, I thank the Deputy Premier for his remarks. I enjoyed his humour at the beginning and wished for a little bit more substance later on, but he certainly has a sense of humour, which we appreciate. *

(1430) I am pleased to rise today and respond to the Minister of Finance's (Mr. Stefanson) budget which he of course delivered in this House last Friday, the 14th of March.

I understand that the throne speech delivered in early March really set the agenda for the budget, and the throne speech set forth the government's selling points: first of all, a surplus, which we predicted; secondly, a claim to no major tax increases, this I will address later; thirdly, a repayment of debts on the backs of the poor and the downtrodden in this province, I might add; fourthly, a lowering of the unemployment rate, and, of course, the unemployment rate has gone down, but we have far too many part-time and dead-end jobs in the province of Manitoba.

So any economic prosperity is extremely modest and certainly not worthy of the crowing and carrying on that we have heard from members on the opposite side. Now, Madam Speaker, this government claims full credit for this modest economic growth. They claim full credit for any prosperity and yet in that same throne speech, the throne speech that we heard at the beginning of March, this government evaded any responsibility for the inequities that characterize our province and evaded any responsibility for the growing poverty that characterizes life in Manitoba.

All was blamed on the federal government, and the distin ct impression from the throne speech was that the only possible source of relief for Manitoba's woes is the federal government to revert to an old partnership before the introduction of the CHST payments. Now there is some truth in this picture, the picture as presented. I want to acknowledge that this government, aided by natural economic cycles and swings, aided by falling interest rates and by a general recovery in North America, has achieved some modest gains. That is true.

It is true as well that the federal government's cuts in transfer payments in the name of economic necessity is a blemish on our national state, Madam Speaker. a betrayal of our poorest citizens and our most vulnerable citizens and, arguably, another step down the path towards the breakup of Canada as a national state. But the most impor tant truth is not a federal truth. The most importa nt truth is here in Manitoba. Let us be perfectly clear about this. The modest economic achievem ents are directly related to the deteriorat ion of our health, education and social support systems. The terrible irony here.

Madam Speaker, is that our Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) argue and have argued that they must deplete the services and programs in health. education and social services. They must deplete them now in order to ensure the future of these programs. They do not heed what is plain to any ordinary Manitoban. You do not have to be a rocket scientist to understand this. and that is the fact is that ill-educated. poorly nourished children whose health has been ignored, whose education has been ignored do not have a sound future to protect.

So I wonder what has happened to preventative. proactive programs and services, the kind of pay now and save later, that particular attitude towards government and governing. I suppose the truth is that this government lives from election to election so that a dollar saved today is another dollar for the slush fund that is slowly accumulating in preparation for the next election. This argument of cutting now to protect future generations is simply at best nonsense and at worst doublespeak or, as I believe my colleague from Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) christened it the other night, the big lie.

It is a smoke screen to hide the real agenda. The real agenda in this province, Madam Speaker, is the creation of a two-tiered system, the creation- Point of Order Madam Speaker: The Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, on a point of order.

March 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 677 Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Thank you, Madam Speaker. I believe our colleague across the floor, the member for Osborne speaking now, used the term "big lie" in reference within her speech, and I believe that is not permitted within this Chamber. Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, I will take the point of order raised under advisement so that I can check the context within which the terminology was used. * * * Ms.

McGifford: Madam Speaker, I would be quite willing to withdraw the phrase and substitute "large fallacy" if that would help. Madam Speaker, I was speaking about the creation of two-tiered systems in Manitoba, especially with regard to health, education and social services. We are more and more becoming a province where there is one service for the haves and another service for the have nots, sometimes known as the underclasses. These two-ti ered systems and the class divisions which characterize these schisms are everywhere more apparent in our province.

It seems to me this is a betrayal of their Canadian dreams of equality. We dreamed, our ancestors dreamed of a country where if we were not necessarily born equal as far as wealth was concerned, at the very least we would take steps to create a level playing field. Years gone by this might take the form historically speaking of grants in land. In our more recent history we have tried to create a level playing field by implementing educational, health and social programs. This level playing field began to get awfully lumpy of course with the Mulroney Tories in Ottawa.

Chretien's Liberals, who promised renewal, have really delivered restraint and slashing, and of course the culmination of the end of the level playing field is here in Manitoba with the Filmon government, with the conception of a two-tiered system, the development and conception of two-tiered systems. The two-tiered system, Madam Speaker, is the death of the vision of a laying of a level playing field and a sad day for us all since it marks the end of social justice for Manitobans.

I want to return, Madam Speaker, now to the Minister of Finance's explanation of "cutting now to protect the future," which I suppose is starving your child in order to feed your grandchild. I was talking about this explanation as a smoke screen, which hides the two tiered system. But even worse than its introduction of a two-tiered system, bad as that might be, is the arrogance and the cynicism that accompanies or that lurks behind this kind of statement. This government-excuse me, I need to cough. It is the season for colds.

This government is cutting our social services, our education and our health programs in order to generate a pre-election reserve. They are stashing the piggy bank and balancing the books on the backs of the most vulnerable and poor in Manitoba, balancing the books on the backs of our children's education. We know the history of -2, -2, 0, -2, 0 and then next year again 0. We know that there has been $4 million cut from post-secondary education in Manitoba this year, and of course we know that the health of Manitobans, the health and well-being of Manitobans , has been put on the line.

This is clear in cuts to eye care; Pharmacare, home care, personal care homes and hospital services all tell the same story, the story being, let us stack the political sock for the next election. *

(1440) I want to tum my attention for a minute to the tax story. The Minister of Finance began his budget speech very proudly crowing about the fact that his budget introduces no new taxes and no tax increases and that it extends Manitoba's freeze of major new taxes to 10 years. I think he said 10 years. Several of my colleagues, including the Leader of the Opposition, have addressed the myth of no tax cuts, pointing out that what we really have are a host of increases in costs, in user fees, and of course we have had out and out cuts and oftloading from the province to property taxes.

My colleagues in their speeches have been compiling a catalogue of these stealth taxes or taxes by the backdoor and I am going to continue and add a little to this list.

678 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 20, 1997 Fi rst of all, education. Our education cuts have meant property tax increases that outpace other jurisdictions. For example, the property tax portion of spending by school boards has risen from $243 million in 1989-90 to $355.5 million in 1996-97, and government funding for public schools will fall from 70 percent to 62 percent, and surely this year's and next year's zero percent increases will only exacerbate this situation.

Incide ntally, Madam Speaker, since when has news of stable funding, especially stable funding at zero and after years of slashing and cuts, since when has news of this kind of stability been a topic of self congratulations? Well, since the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) got up last Frid ay. This government boasts about its zero percent increase for the next two years as though this were bounty and generosity rather than the stingy meanspi rite dness that it is. Now other stealth taxes include provincial cuts to our city.

They have added pressure to our property taxes, already the highest per value in the country. Property taxes for years have been forced up because of offloading, contrary to what the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Reime

r) is saying. There have been user fees in health care. We mentioned eye examinations, the doubling of per diems in personal care homes, increased Pharmacare cuts, charges for ultrasound, the northern transportation fee, home care equipment like ostomy bags, and then there was the cancellation of the children's dental hospital but, of course, this is not a user fee. This is an out-and-out cut and harmful, I might add, to the children of Manitoba. I will not continue with the health care cuts at this ti me. Many of my colleagues have listed health care cuts, and I am sure others will mention them.

Here are a few more examples of zero percent increases or user fees: broadening sales taxes to include school supplies. I thought we were interested in learning in this province. A broadening sales tax to include children's clothing, even diapers, Madam Speaker. Then there are the increases in the telephone services only to be predicted, fishing licences for seniors, drivers' licences, camping fees, soil testing, Legal Aid-$25 before you can get any help in Legal Aid which certainly penalizes the women of Manitoba, and there have been increases in Vital Statistics to obtain vital statistics information.

I am going to return now for a minute back to education. I have already spoken about this government's bragging in regard to a zero percent increase for the next two years after, I might add again, years of cuts. We all know that the public school system in our province is scandalously underfunded. The results of this underfunding were the subject of debate last fall at the committee hearings when public presentations were made by parents, teachers, school trustees, students, superintendents. A full range of presenters attended those meetings and talked about the problems with cuts in education.

What are the results of these cuts?-a decline in teacher morale. Teachers in Manitoba are depressed, are overworked. Their morale is lower than it has been in years. What are some of the other results? Increases in classroom size because of layoffs, not good for learning, we all know that . Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Decaying buildings. Ms. McGitTord: Decaying buildings, my colleague from St . James (Ms. Mihychuk) tells me, probably some of them decayed to the point of not being safe for our students.

There have been decreases in a host of resources including resource teachers, decreases in programs, and so limits are placed on our students getting a full education in Manitoba. Teachers are faced with outdated equipment, aids and especially textbooks. We hear of students in 1996 trying to learn with geography textbooks-the face of the world has changed but students are expected to learn geography with a text published in 1976. I remember dis tinctly a teacher from St. Boniface lamenting this dreadful state of affairs.

Now we learn, Madam Speaker, that carefully hidden in the budget is some good educational news at least for one select body of Manitobans, and that is we learn that education grants to private schools are going to increase. Private schools of course are the schools of choice for many members of this government and their political allies, so why are we not surprised to hear that these grants are going to increase? This is the kind of blatant pork barrelling which serves to expedite the growth of an education industry which is another term

March 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 679 for a two-tiered system and this two-tiered system in Manitoba and, of course, is perfectly in keeping with the underpinnings of current Tory ideology. The privatization of all public services is the aim of this government one gathers, even public education. Steal from the poor, give to the rich and so reverse the Robin Hood motif. The inner city schools in Winnipeg will be required to reduce nursery school programs, to stew about breakfast for hungry kids and to worry about busing, but private schools this year we understand will get an increase.

Turning to post-secondary education for a minute, this government has bragged about extra money for post-secondary students by way of increases in tax credits and bursaries. I know that the favourite Tory student was on CBC praising these increases and lauding the importance of student choice. But let us put beside this, side by side, the very important fact that a cut of $4 million to post-secondary education will mean a shortfall at University of Manitoba of $8 million, and that this university will be forced to increase tuition by at least 5 percent.

Clearly an increase to the Manitoba learning tax credit and the added $1 million for scholarships and bursaries will not offset the decreases and atone for the increases in tuition fees which over the last five years have risen somewhere between, depending on the university, 125 percent to 146 percent. *

(1450) Univ ersities and university education, which in the '60s and in the '70s was financially possible for just about everybody, are once again becoming exclusive, the privilege of the few who can afford them. This government is turning the clock backwards and showing its true reactionary colours. Many university departments are suffering the effects of years of cutting by a government which has little respect for scholarships, for the world of ideas or for the learning of the humanities. Take, for example the English department at the University of Manitoba.

I understand that in the past 10 years, because of retirements, staff numbers have fallen from 39 to 23, and five of these 23 members teach in film and theatre, which leaves 18 members in the English department to run undergraduate and graduate programs, to participate in the full range of university life and of course to make scholarly contributions in their chosen fields.

I understand that this year there may be more retirements but no replacements because retirees are not replaced, rather, their salaries are clawed back in general revenues to pay for deficits created by this government's chronic underfunding of Manitoba's oldest and largest university.

I know that last year this government passed a bill on compulsory retirement at the University of Manitoba and there might be something to say about compulsory retirement, but the problem is, when somebody retires, there is never any replacement, and so of course why are we not surprised that departments want to hang on to their teachers as long as possible? The new generation of scholars and teachers who traditionally continue the academic and scholarly work of an institution simply will not exist at the University of Manitoba.

Now, this intellectual vacuum probably does not disturb a government which allows a Minister of Education to appoint a post-secondary education council which fails to include even a single academic. It probably does not disturb a government which generally adopts the philosophical vision of Jeremy Bentham, the utilitarian point of view, so members opposite probably are not terribly described but, really, Madam Speaker, they should know better. One presumes that the autumn 1995 strike at the University of Manitoba accounts to some extent for this government's animosity and anti-intellectual bias.

Those who contravene the Premier are sooner or later punished. But does this government not understand that by hamstringing the humanities at the University of Manitoba and other universities in this province that it, by its own reckoning, fails to prepare young people for their professional futures. They will not be ready for the complexities of the marketplace in the future. I trust it is the same anti-intellectual bias that explains why Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, why this budget has been cut and particularly why monies to public library services have been cut. I suspect this is true.

680 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 20, 19 97 (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) After all, a government which does not value its Department of English at a major university probably has little respect for the printed word and does not much care whether great texts, let alone lesser texts, reach our communities, especially the people in the North, who do not vote Tory anyway. Let them watch TV.

But it is extremely hypocritical for this government to cut library services, especially in view of the Premier's own Reading Recognition awards and apparently his reading to children at the Children's Museum. But of course for his recognition awards and for his stints at the Children's Museum our Premier gets public recognition, while I suppose the idea is, cut library services and hope that nobody really notices. An Honourable Member: Kind of like packing hampers at the Cheer Board. Ms. McGifford: It is kind of like packing hampers at the Cheer Board, a very good analogy, thanks to the member for Burrows.

I have many specific concerns about the budget which I had wanted to raise, but I have other colleagues who want the opportunity to speak today and of course we value co-operation and not competition, so I am soon going to end. But I want to have a few final words about the physical characteristics of this budget, just the physical characteristics of this document, for here is another example of that grand fallacy. I have not been able to use that other phrase that everyone knows, so I will call it a grand fallacy. This publication is glossy and slick.

There are great blue vistas I suppose attempting to associate this government with expansiveness and honesty. There are athletes on the cover, both male and female on the smaller version, suggesting the Pan Am Games, suggesting that all Manitobans are athletic, healthy, strong, well fed, well clad, well cared for, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and that all Manitobans are going to be happy, successful winners. This is, as I said, a grand fallacy. The Finance minister forgot to include some other faces on the front of this publication.

The Finance minister forgot to include the 1 ,800 health care workers, mostly nurses, who have been laid off in the past years. He forgot to include the 700 teachers who have been laid off . Where are the 70 workers who just lost their jobs at Rice Sportswear? Where are the 87,500 women who work part time, one-third of whom want full-time jobs? Where are the 25 percent of Manitoba children who live in poverty and the welfare moms with children under six who are being harassed and forced onto the labour market without proper care for their children?

Where are the sick and bewildered seniors who are prematurely being ejected from hospital and returned to the community without proper care, often to live in loneliness and isolation? Where are the homeless? There are homeless people in my constituency in Osborne Village. Where are the people who eat at food banks? Where are the latch-key kids whose parents cannot find accessible, affordable daycare? Where are the desperate parents with special needs children whose respite time has been cut? Where are the women waiting for counselling at government underfunded agencies?

Where are the sidelined and where are the abandoned? Mr. Deputy Speaker, my caucus has an alternate vision, one announced by our Leader just before this House convened in March. We would bring outsiders into the inside, and we would bring social justice to the marginalized people of Manitoba. We take responsibility for the quality of life in Manitoba, quality life for all Manitobans, not merely a select few, and our budget would reflect this alternative. Our budget would reflect this inclusive view.

It would be a gift to all Manitobans, not a cynical, arrogant document designed to appease corporate bosses and by the lackeys, toadies and cronies and other various Tory hangers-on. As we have said before, Manitobans want an election, and with this in mind I endorse our Leader's motion of nonconfidence. Thank you •

(1500) Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Deputy Speaker, today really is a special day if we are not aware of it. This morning when I was listening to the radio I was listening to a countdown just before eight o'clock; in fact, I think it was around 7:55. On the radio they were doing a countdown, and it twigged my ears as to what they were counting down for. As it happened, at exactly 7:55 this morning the equinox came into being which is, as we know, the time when

March 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 68 1 the sun crosses the equator and we now go into what we call springtime. I thought it is so apropos that today was a day that I was planning to speak on the budget, and it is the first day of spring, a new change, a new direction and a new feeling of optimism here in Manitoba, and it is so apropos that I am standing here today speaking about a budget that is also part of a celebration in the fact that it is the I Oth budget in a row where there have been no tax increases.

As I mentioned, you know, the springtime gives us a chance to think of how we can plan for the new year, how we can plant the seeds of growth, how we can look back in a sense as to what has transpired over our endeavours over the last few years. If we look back to I 0 years ago, at that time the vision of our Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Finance at that time, the Honourable Clayton Manness, there was the vision and fortitude to say we are going to make things different in Manitoba.

We are going to make things better; we are going to look to the future; we are going to do some planning as to how and where we are going with our money, the monies that we are spending and the monies that we are collecting. So it is apropos today that when we look at the changing in the season, the fact that we are going into a spring mode of the year, that we are now talking about a budget that is bringing forth the same type of optimism and generating that same type of growth in our economy.

It is the seeds of economic growth that our Premier and Finance ministers have planted over the years that now we as the citizens of Manitoba, our children, can benefit because of the strong visions that we have brought forth for Manitoba. Speaking on the budget, there are quite a few areas that we should be concentrating our efforts on in recognizing how we have come about and the framework that was put up for the I997 budget.

It is balanced budget legislation in effect with this budget that has been brought forth as mentioned and is again reiterating the fact that it is the 1Oth year that we are now celebrating no major tax increases. It is showing a modest revenue growth. Our own source revenues are growing. It is also taking into fact that we are being forced and faced with reduced federal transfers and the transfer of funding in the major areas of expenditures that this government has always held as a priority which is in health, education and social services.

The federal government continues to offload and download in these three particular areas. In one of my departments it is becoming even more apparent, in my Housing department, where the federal government has offloaded since 19 93 with the capping of funding at that time, in 19 94 of the withdrawal of funding for capital expenditures regarding funding.

In 19 95 there was the offloading across Canada of I believe it was around $250 million with the funding cutback from public housing, and this year the request for a total withdrawal out of the public housing sector altogether and the total offloading onto the provinces. Here in Manitoba that is an offload of a tremendous amount of units, almost 18 ,000 units. This also represents a mortgage portfolio of over $650 million. These are some of the areas that we as a government have been forced to recognize because of the Liberal agenda of offloading down to the provinces.

But in the meantime, because of the astute management of our revenues through our government actions and our programs taken through all departments of government, we are still able to come through with a balanced budget, have a surplus and still provide additional fundings to some of our main areas of expenditure that are required. The federal government, as mentioned, we are looking at a total reduction in transferring of fundings to the provinces, here in Manitoba of almost $1.1 billion by the year 2000 and 2001. So these are very significant amounts of monies that we as a province have to adjust to.

We are projecting a $27-million surplus, and this is, as mentioned by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), the third surplus in a row that we are able to generate through our astute management of our economy and the fact that we are making it available for industry to expand, for the growth in exports, for the growth of private manufacturing investments. Plant expansion and capital investments are at an all-time high here in Manitoba. We are able to finally start to pay off our debt, something that has been mentioned and bears repeating, the tremendous amount of debt

682 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 20, 1997 that was inherited by this government from the former NDP government when they were in office and where the only thing that they saw to generate growth was government expenditure, government borrowing and increase of debt to where now we are paying debt charges of over $500 million a year. But this government has decided that, as with any type of astute management of funding and household account, in a sense, you have to start to pay off your debt.

So we have set in motion a program of paying off this debt, and this will be the first year that we deposit $75 million towards the total elimination of this debt somewhere down the line. A lot of the members across get very nervous when we start to talk about the tremendous debt that we have accumulated because of the NDP. We can see this happening from various other aspects of NDP governments that are in power right now.

We have to look at NDP governments that are in power to use as a comparison, and we look at the province of Ontario that had the former NDP government where they racked up in their first year of administration over $1 2-biilion worth of debt. I can recall then the Leader of the NDP party here in Manitoba, the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), standing in this House and saying if you want to debate the Ontario budget, we will debate it and we will debate it with pride. At that time, Ontario was going into the tank big time, big-time debt, in the tank to $12 billion a year in debt that they accumulated.

It took a change in government there; it took a realization by the people of Ontario that they could not continue with an NDP government of the tax-and-spend mentality so they booted them out. They now have a Conservative government in there that is turning that province around and is going to enjoy some record gains, just as we have done over our period of tenure here since 1988.

If we look further west to another NDP government, because we should use these people as a comparison because they are in power, we can look at the British Columbia government and see how when they went to the polls just a little while ago, how they had so-called brought in a balanced budget, a balanced budget that shortly after they were elected, there was a big oops and they said, oh, pardon me, we did not have a balanced budget but we got elected on this promise-after they tabled a balanced budget. Then they found out that there were hundreds of millions of dollars the other way.

They were not in a balanced position; they were in a red position. Their revenues were south, Mr. Deputy Speaker, not north. In fact, it is an interesting situation in British Columbia. I believe their government or their Finance minister is going to be taken to court. I understand, and they are challenging the validity of the provincial government in British Columbia because they so much falsified their budget. An Honour able Member: Allegation of fraud. Mr. Reimer: Allegation of fraud. That is the right terminology.

These are the interesting things that we look at when we say the NDP on the other side have the alternatives. They stay there, they sit on that side of the House with the black cloud of doom and gloom hanging over them. Sometimes you cannot see to that side of the House because of the gloominess that sits over there. But this is their mantle in li fe, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that they are there as critici sms and opposition and that is their sole purpose.

The constructive attitude and the constructive juices cannot flow anymore because it is total ly stifled by this opposition to everything that this government has happened to do. So it would be very. very hard for a creativity and a new direct ion to come out of an opposit ion that has nothing but the doom and gloom and the down side on everything that comes about. *

(1510) The people in Manitoba, the entrepreneurs, the people that are working, the people that are looking for the investment and the growth in this province are the people that are creating the optimism and the growth in Manitoba It is these type of people that see Manito ba as the best place to work, to invest and create jobs in- An Honourable Member: Raise a family. Mr. Reimer: -and raise a family here in Manitoba.

This is the type of attitude that is becoming more and more prevalent in this province of Manitoba, and I compliment the people for the astuteness of their recognition that a lot of the things that this government is doing is turning the comer for them in the sense of building the right atmosphere.

March 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 683 We have indicated, as I have mentioned before, there have been no new tax in creases in this province. We have targeted some tax incentives to look at the stimulation of various sectors of the economy that can help further growth. One of them is the temporary manufacturing tax credit that has been extended to June 30, the year 2000. The payroll tax exemption has been increased to $1 millio n, which is going to mean that there are an additional 600 employers that will be fully exempt from paying payroll tax this year.

An Honourable Member: That means more money for their staff, too. Mr. Reimer: That means more money, exactly, as has been pointed out by one of my colleagues. This is more money that is going to go into the workers' pockets because of the deductions and that the company has to look at-can be reinvested or redistributed within the confines of their work. These are some of the things that are recognized as positive initiatives for this province. Mr. Deputy Speaker, these are some of the things that people outside this Chamber recognize. People on the other side of this Chamber, they criticize that.

They see that there is something wrong with that. The introduction of a film and video production tax credit is going to increase tremendously the ability for this industry to grow. It is estimated that the film and video industry could be a $200-million industry in the next few years here in Manitoba. It is a very important initiative here in Manitoba. In fact, I recall one of the studies that was done by the art institute here in Manitoba-was the fact that for every dollar that is spent in the arts community, it generates $7 of revenue in the community.

These are tremendous returns within the arts community here in Manitoba. The arts community in Manitoba. We are very, very fortunate here in Winnipeg or in Manitoba that we have such a vast variety of entertainment that has a strong financial basis. One of the things that makes this a strong financial basis is the fact that the people get involved. It is the volunteerism. It is the cultural awareness. It is the cultural growth that we can partake in that we can be very proud of here in Manitoba, for this tremendous asset we have in our cultural ambience of Manitoba.

So I compliment our government on the initiatives of recognizing where there is growth for additional revenues and entrepreneurship, the fact that people will be involved with that. We have increased the corporate capital tax exemption, increased it $3 million, which is also going to have a tremendous effect on the investments into manufacturing which is related to jobs. You know, you get the criticism from across the way that it does not mean that the money is well spent. The biggest thin g that can help the people, in a sense, is the fact that we have people working.

That is the greatest incentive for people, to have jobs. We have also reduced the gasoline tax on aviation fuel by one cent recognizing that here in Winnipeg, particularly Winnipeg with a 24-hour operation air port, that this has the ability to recognize more involvement with the airport. These are jobs that can be related to the terminaling and the handling of merchandise here in Winnipeg. It also means the availability of- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Can I have the honourable member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) and the member for St. James (Ms.

Mihychuk) go to the loge and carry on thei r discussion so that we do not disrupt the rest of the House. The honourable Minister of Urban Affairs, to continue. Mr. Reimer: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You see, when you get a speech going a lot of times, things became animated here, because a lot of the things that I say, people become involved with this type of rhetoric. They want more of it. I actually feel that the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) and the member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) were partaking in complimenting me on a lot of what I was sayin g. The hubbub may have been misinterpreted.

I always like to point out, one of the other initiatives that we have brought forth with the budget is that we have extended the sales tax rebate for first-time homebuyers, extended it another year. This is, as the Minister of Housing, always something that is of great

684 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 20, 1997 note. Encouraging any type of building or the expansion of building is something that I feel is a benefit to a lot of the residents here in Manitoba, not only just here in Winnipeg. We have talked about the amount of money that has been dedicated to the essentials of our government, which have always been Health, Education, and Family Services. In fact, Mr. Deputy Speaker, over 65 percent of our total spending goes to just these three components within our government. This has always been a very high priority with our government.

In fact, health care spending, per capita wise, we are the highest spenders per capita of any other province in Canada. That deserves repeating. We here in Manitoba spend more per capita on health care than any other province in Canada. Now, if you listen to the other side, and heaven forbid you do, but if you listen to the other side, the only thing you hear about is cutbacks, we have cut back this, we have cut back this. But it is totally wrong. It is wrong, wrong, wrong. In fact, in regards to education, we are increasing $1 million for funding for computers in classrooms.

Our provincial support for community colleges has been maintained with $1 million for new funding for bursaries and scholarships for university and community colleges; $5.4 million to University of Manitoba and University of Winnipeg for urgent fire upgrades; $1.4 million for federal-provincial Partners for Careers initiatives. We have also, as has been pointed out by various other speakers on this side, the proceeds from $150 million from the Health debt repayment financing of new priority Health capital projects has been also mentioned.

These are things that are going to help in the fulfilment of our obligations regarding the health priorities and health initiatives here in this province of Manitoba. Our home care budget is up $13 million, over $100 million now. The opposition there says we are cutting home care. An up spending of $13 million, that is an up. That means it is going north, not south. The signs are going up; $13 million more in home care; $17 million more for Pharmacare program, which is allotted to help. As Minister of Seniors, I recognize that these are some of the thing s that we see as positives. *

(1520) You hear the other side, you hear the opposition, we are cutting back. we are cutting back. We have increased more money; $104 million for Child and Family Support agencies. The member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). I know he recognizes that as a good initiative, and I agree with him on that. We are increasing funding, in fact, over $2 million additional support for personal care homes here in Manitoba. These are more monies. These are more; these are not less. We could say that more is more, but it does not seem to sink in over there. Does that make sense? No. How does more mean less?

Some people recognize that. We have announced funding for an Aboriginal Health and Wellness Centre. An Honourable Member: Where is that going to go? Mr. Reimer: Into the Aboriginal Health and Wellness Centre. there will be funding put into that. We have announced $4..+ million for services to adults with disabilities. It is something, I believe. that is recognizing that there is a need in that area. We are introducing $8.9 million for Making Welfare Work programs. I think a lot of us are recognizing that the best person-not a handout; it is a hand up.

What we are looking at is having people-the best security for a person is a job. Welfare is a program that is there to be used as a safety net and a trampoline really to get things going again. We have announced, and we continue to announce. $2 million for additional policing here for Winnipeg. a tremendous initiative on this government's initiatives. So it will mean 40 more police officers on the streets here in Winnipeg. These are things that the other side of the House is aware of. but they criticize it-[inter jection] There is a cut.

I have to take very much exception to the member who spoke just before me. the member for Osborne

March 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 685 (Ms. McGifford), who was talking about a cut to the City of Winnipeg. My goodness, Mr. Deputy Speaker, where have they been? Since 1990 our funding to the City of Winnipeg has gone up 24 percent-! would like to also just to put on the record-over this same period that other provinces have reduced their grants. An Honourable Member: Reduced. That means less. Mr. Reimer: Reduced. In Alberta, down by 41 .6 percent; in Ontario, down by 23 percent; in Newfoundland, down by 17.9; 8.3 in New Brunswick; 7.3 in Nova Scotia; 6.8 in Quebec. These are all down figures.

Our funding to the City of Winnipeg has been consistent and in fact has increased year over year over year. For the member for Osborne to stand up and say that we are cutting funding to the City of Winnipeg is totally, totally out of context. We as a province fund more to the City of Winnipeg than any other province. There was only one other province that did not reduce it, and that was at zero. We have increased over 3.2 percent last year more than we did before. I find that I just cannot speak. I cannot believe these things that the opposition keeps saying about all these down things.

I could speak about the Winnipeg Development Agreement, a tremendous initiative by this province to be in partnership with the other two levels of government, the feds and the City of Winnipeg. We have committed $25 million through the Winnipeg Development Agreement for various initiatives. One of the most significant initiatives has been the Urban Safety program through the Winnipeg Development Agreement, which has generated a tremendous uptake by various groups.

In fact, one of the criteria of the Urban Safety program is that it is a good-faith partnership with other nonprofit organizations for the continuation of Urban Safety programs. What it does is draw upon the assets of a community to enhance and make the programs better. Funding through the Winnipeg Development Agreement is used as a catalyst to promote longevity of programs. What we look for are various components to add to the safety of Winnipeg in all sectors of Winnipeg, not only in certain areas of Winnipeg, but it applies to all areas, whether it be St.

James, whether it be out in Brooklands or in Fort Garry. It is a broad based area for wherever there is a need for urban safety. As menti oned, one of the ideas is to form partnerships, good-faith partnerships, with the various nonprofit groups and organizations. To date-this is maybe about a month old when I say "to date" but the figures that I have before me-we have expended just over $980,000. What this has generated in good-faith partnerships with other groups is a total investment of just over $3.6 million.

So this gives you an idea of the amount of seed money that can bring into fold other areas of development within the Urban Safety program. This represents initiatives with, I believe it is eight or nine different types of organizations, groups like Ross brook House, City of Winnipeg Police department, the Winnipeg Boys and Girls Club, the Downtown BIZ, the North Main BIZ. Downtown BIZ. I think we are all aware of the Neighbourhood Watch program down there that patrols downtown with their red uniforms on. They have proven to be very, very successful in how they have made the downtown area a little bit safer.

They have added to the tourists' safety. Their information-they are hooked up by two-way radio not only to their base but also to the City of Winnipeg so that in case of an emergency they have instant access to a response team. These are some of the things that are strong positives that we can build upon through the Winnipeg Development Agreement. We are very optimistic that there are other components of the Winnipeg Development Agreement that we feel should be explored. We are still in the process of taking applications under various other sectors.

I think these are the type of expenditures that we can expect that will have positive benefits for Winnipeg as we go into the new century. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have talked about a lot of things that have happened within the provincial budget that was just down, the 1997 budget, and we have to recognize that a lot of the things that have been pointed

686 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 20, 1997 out, the fact that we are trying to set in motion a series of repayments on our debt.

We are looking at trying to make sure that our balanced budget stays in effect so that we can do the long-term planning so that when we go into the new year and into the years ahead, we can look at a growth record and a confidence in our economy that is something that our children can be proud of, that we have been part of this new direction that has happened here in Manitoba. * (1 530) Some of our winning economic initiatives, if you want to call them that, are that some of the forecasts for Manitoba are that we are looking at a growth rate by the Conference Board of around 2.9 percent in 1997.

As mentioned by some of my colleagues, we are looking at a growth rate of almost 21,000 new jobs here in Manitoba, mostly full time, but more importantly, all in the private sector. The private sector is the engine of what makes Manitoba strong, not only here in Winnipeg but also in the rural area.

The rural area, with all the economic growth that is happening in the rural area through the agrifood business, the expansion of the various components-these are all initiatives where we are going to see tremendous satisfaction and the ability to improve the living conditions here in Manitoba, because as people are working, they are going to be paying taxes. We as a province benefit by those. The taxes that we do get we are able to reinvest back into our sectors where there is the greatest need and growth and requirements.

It has always been and will continue to be the three areas of health, education and social services. In education we will now be spending, I believe, just over $1 billion. In fact, I believe the figure that I have is $1. 03 billion for education. Here again, this is $12 million more than was budgeted last year. That is more; I said $12 million more than last year. Now if you hear the other side of the opposition, all you hear about is we are cutting education.

The schools are, you know, everything is-but when the budget line shows one figure, you compare it to the next year, and it has gone up by an amount and it has gone up by $1 2 million where it is now over $1 billion that we spenu m public education. Where is the rational reasoning from our opposition saying that we have cut? \V e are spending over $1.8 billion now in health care. $1 .8 billion a year in health care. We have committed $22.3 million for educational renewal initiatives. These are expenditures.

As much as we talk about the balanced budget and holding the line. we are still able to recognize that where there is a need, as in health care. as in education. the funding has gone up. Now let it not be said that this government does not see its priorities in the light of trying to help those who are in need. Through health care, through education, through family services. these are the areas that we have always concentrated on. They take up 65 percent of our budget. 1 believe it is even more than that. Someone said it was up to 67, but I would have to check. These are the types of initiatives, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that will show that just as this government is balancing the economic gains and the economic initiatives and the so-called economic agenda, we are still keeping in primary focus the three most critical areas of our budget which are health care, education and social services. Mr. Deputy Speaker. you could go on and on talking about this budget because it has so many good and positive initiatives involved with it. We could talk about the manufacturing shipments. They are up 8 percent in 1996, three times the national rate. Total foreign exports are up 9.7. more than twice the national rate.

The federal Liberal government would Jove to have this budget. They would love to be abie to sit in the position and mirror what Manitoba is doing. Their employment rate is well over 9 percent. They cannot budget. No matter how Mr. Chretien talks about jobs. jobs, jobs. they have none. none. none. Our employment rate is nudging down to almost the lowest in Canada. Mr. Chretien keeps it up there. He keeps talking about the jobs but nothing is happening. Retail sales here in Manitoba are up 6.1 percent and this is more than twice the national average. Manitoba's farm cash receipts are up 1.3 percent.

This is the highest they have been since 1979. We are the only province to record increased private to capital investment for five consecutive years, five consecutive years that private investment has increased year over year. That is almost four times more than the national

March 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 687 average. The federal government is green with envy with what has happened here in Manitoba. In fact, we are so close to St. Patrick's Day, they are still walking around with green underwear. Mr. Deputy Speaker, this is an exciting time to be in this Legislature and to be part of this government, to be part of the decision, to be part of the direction that our Finance minister (Mr. Stefanson) and our Premier (Mr. Filmon) have embarked on since 19 88. I was not here in 19 88.

I was fortunate enough to be elected in 19 90 to be part of the team that was being formed at that time to take Manitoba into the tum of the century, and I find it a privilege to have the personal pride and the personal satisfaction of dealing with the people in my caucus and in my government and the vision that they have for Manitoba. Springtime is a year to be optimistic; it is a time to look for the new growth; it is a time to look for new beginnings, if you want. I throw out the gauntlet and the challenge to the opposition to do the right thing. Recognize that now is the time to work together.

We can have one big group hug in this room. Know the right thing to do. Let us get that feeling of kumbaya in here. We can vote for this. You can vote for this budget. This is a budget that you can vote for. I know that there is a willingness over there to do it. Do not be caught by the naysayers and the bopping nabobs of nepotism over there and negativism. Now is the time to come forth in this time of spring in this great province of Manitoba and make things happen, a new vigour, a new optimism and a new vision. I ask the opposition to join with us in voting for this budget. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I cannot say any more. That is it. Thank you. Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): The Minister of Housing and Urban Affairs can rest assured that we still have a few things to say about the budget, and we will not be supporting their budget. I want to begin my fairly brief debate on this budget by drawing your attention to something that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) said at the very beginning of his Budget Address. This to me sort of sums up where this government is coming from.

It sums up their attitude towards the 58 percent of the population that did not vote for them in the last election and how that attitude is reflected in this budget. * (1 540) The Minister of Finance said that this budget was dedicated to all those who share our vision. That is a quote. Now I can assure you that those of us on this side of the House that represent those 58 percent of Manitobans that did not vote for this government do not share their vision.

We saw very clearly by those invited guests who were here on hand for the government, invited guests by the government from the Chamber of Commerce and their constituencies, associations, that those are the few in Manitoba that do share their vision. They might as well have come out and said that this budget is dedicated to their business buddies that are benefiting from those $12 .5 more million in tax breaks that are in this budget. That is their vision. That is their vision which is to continue on this track which is tearing Manitoba in two. In my Throne Speech Debate, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I talked about the statistics in this country and in Manitoba that show that the income gap is growing, and that is a direct result of the kind of budgets that this government has been bringing in. Even though in their throne speech they made references, finally, to aboriginal people in Manitoba-finally they said the word "poverty"- this budget does not reflect that agenda, and this budget will continue to have the gap in income among Manitobans, the haves and those that have not continue to grow. That is one of the key problems that I have with this budget.

A number of members on our side of the House have gone through the litany of taxes and user fees that have been levied by this no tax Filmon government. I am going to focus first of all a little bit on the revenue side because I found some interesting things as I was doing a little comparison.

I mean, the other thing that this government has tried to do in this budget is compare 19 97 to 19 87, 10 years before, which was the last NDP year in this province, and in doing that they have tried to create the impression that they have bundles more money, bundles more revenue coming in and going to health and education and other government services.

688 LEGISLATIV E AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 20, 19 97 And they have tried to suggest in their Budget Address that there are hundreds of milli ons of more dollars going into education and health care now than when we were in office, and that is the kind of impression they want Manitobans to come away with. But what they do not tell you is that when you compare the amount of money that has gone into health and education in this budget as compared to last budget, when you account for the overrun from the last year's budget, there are actually cuts.

I want to focus a little bit on the revenue side because there are a number of interesting things when you start looking at the revenue picture in Manitoba. I took the liberty to go back and dig up some of the budget books from even 19 87 and '88. Thanks to my good friend the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), we have quite a resource library downstairs.

I first of all want to draw some attention to some of the inequities that are in the revenue side of this budget-when you look at the fact that the revenue picture in Manitoba shows that 26.5 percent of this government's revenue is coming from individual income tax and only 3.5 percent of this government's revenue is coming from corporate income tax. (Mr. Ben Sveinson, Acting Spea ker, in the Chair) Yet what did they do in this budget? They have reduced the health and education levy and reduced a tax on business. Now that is one of the ways that you can show the unf airness in this budget.

When you do a comparison to 19 87, the revenue picture there, you would see that personal income taxes in 19 87-'88 in the NDP budget were 23.3 percent of the total revenue coming into the government. So, in effect, over 10 years, this government is taking more than 3 percent, 3.2 percent more of their revenue from famili es and individuals from their income tax, and yet they are trying to say that they are the tax freeze, no tax Filmon government.

One of the other things that is kind of interesting when you look at what this government is doing with its budget books is when you look at the money that is coming from Crown corporations and from Lotteries. Now, in years gone by, the budget books actually showed a separate

section of the pie, if you would, for Lotteries. What have they done in this book, in this budget year? They have lumped Lotteries in with all the Crown corporations; 6.9 percent of all the revenue is coming from there. But we know that the Lotteries increase under this government has been over $200 mil lion, $300 mill ion, and one of the things that they do not want the public to see very clearly is that we do collect more revenues from gambling into the coffers of the government than we do from corporate income tax and, when you go into the detail ofthe budget books, you can see that.

So that is another thing that they have done with these budget books that shows that they have a little bit to hide. When you compare some other numbers related to personal income tax and corporate income tax this year over last year. you can see that they are anticip ating to get $4 milli on less yet again this year from corporate income tax as revenue to the government. Yet, again. there is going to be a $35-milli on increase in the revenue that they receive from personal income tax.

So let Manitobans not be fooled from this government that tries to suggest they are being fair about the way that they are dealing with taxes in this province and that they are keeping taxes down for famil ies.

We know that the cost for families in these budgets from this government have increased dramatically, have increased over $340 per family when you start looking at the taxes that they have levied, whether it is fees for camping, whether it is having to pay for eye examinations. whether it is having your water tested, getting your drivers' licence, all the other ways with user fees in health care, the increases in education tuition fees, parents now having to pay for everything from school buses to increased costs for laboratory use for students even in our public school system.

Plus there has been all the increases with cuts to some of the tax credit programs. One of the issues I still get phone calls about is how this government is now even including property tax credits when they calcula te the revenue, rent geared to income for public housing and social housing in Manitoba, and people say to me, it is a tax credit. How can they tum around and take that back as income when I have already paid taxes and this money has come back to me as a tax credit? That is what this government has done, the no-tax Filmon government. to seniors and other low-income families. They have

March 20, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 689 found innumerable ways to hide increases in revenue for the government calling them all sorts of other names, but a tax by some other name is still a tax. * (1 550 ) I have said already that one of the problems with this budget is that it does not match the throne speech. In the throne speech this government suggested that they were going to address the discrepancy and they were recognizing that there are a number of Manitobans that have been left out. Then what do they do? Well, we have a $500,000 Child renFirst program.

Now, that is going to address-! guess we could figure out the number of chil dren in Manitoba, the number of low income Manitobans right now. I think that there are some 19 8,000 people living in poverty in this province, 18 .4 percent. We know that when you look at just chi ldren, it is well over 25 percent, approaching even 29 percent of children. How far is that $500,000 going to go? But the real question we have to ask when we look at some of these programs for child ren and youth is, we know that it is not new money.

We know that this government has not allocated new resources �nto t�e Chi ldren and Youth Secr etariat. So the questiOn will become, where is this money coming from? I know that in the Budget Address there were also references made there was going to be more savings in social all owance, and when you also look at what this government has done to people who are on social allowance, where they have taken a lot of joy in-it is ju st like the kind of joy they take in announcing that they have reduced the civil service by some 2,500 jobs. Those are 2,500 people in Manitoba that are out of a job.

They also are looking at forcing women, single parents, women mostly, but some men who may be single parents as well, into the workforce without having the adequate suppor t of child care, without having necessarily taken into account the requirement that they have for caring for their children. Now what they are saying is they are going to start these little programs, they are going to have a few programs through this $500,000 fund to address those concerns, the concerns of these parents. (Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Spea ker, in the Chair) One of the other things that this budget does not seem to address, and as this government now is recognizing that there are people in Manitoba who are low income, at least that is what they claim to be recognizing, is the impact of the last number of years of their cuts. �ll those chi ldren who have suffered because the education system has lost almost $50 million since 19 93, those child ren that were between kindergarten and Grade 8 under the years of cuts from this government will never be in Grade 2 again, they will never be in Grade 3 again.

What they lost because of the cuts that this government afforded to education and other programs for families over those years in health care will never be regained.

Others have been critical of their analogy that they are trying to paint this budget as some great beacon of hope for the youth of Manitoba just does not match with the way that young people in this province have been hit very hard by the years of cuts and how they will never regain those lost years whether it is in education, whether it is the lost recreation opportunities, whether it is lost health care and the increased dollars that families have had to spend on Pharmacare or on other Health programs.

We talk to families daily, for example, with diabetic chi ldren who are now having to pay increased costs for insulin and other medication for their children. While I am on this vein, I want to draw attention to some of the repetition that we have heard from this government when addressing these kind of programs for youth, and they keep announcing this Urban Sports Camp Program. They reannounce it and they reannounce it, and last year the end report for Urban Affairs there was all of $25,000 spent under that program. Now, that may have gone to one agency.

S�, especially at this time when we have seen this government make the commitment of $200,000 to the high-p erformance centre for our national and provincial calibr e athletes, we would like to have some consideration for those chi ldren and youth that this government has said have been left out of the picture. They are not going to bring economic development to the province like the Pan Am Games will or having the national volleyball centre here. They just want to have a bat and a ball to play with and somewhere to go at night after school so that they can have an alternative to getting into trouble.

But I can tell you, Mr. Deputy

690 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 20, 19 97 Sp eaker, and I can tell the Minister for Urban Affairs (Mr. Reimer) that $25,000 is not going to go very far at all when you are dealing with Urban Sports Camps. We have seen the announcement yet again. We will have to wait and see if this year they actually are going to get their act together and if we are going to see some alternative youth programs in this province. Mr. Deputy Sp eaker, one of the other things that I wanted to draw attention to when we are dealing with this budget is the Fiscal Sta bilization Fund.

Now, when I was looking at the budget book at the revenue scheme for the government, there is mention there of the Fis cal Sta bil ization Fund. It is 1. 8 percent of the provincial revenue. Now, this, as we know, is going to be a provincial government political re-election fund, and what is interesting here, though, is that they are showing it as revenue. But when we go back to 19 87 and 19 88 when they had a surplus of about $57 mil lion from the NDP government, they tried to deal with that as an expense.

They set up the Fiscal Stabiliz ation Fund and tried to allocate money that was surplus and put it into this fund as if it were an expense . But here, they are actually showing it as income, as revenue, as surplus revenue. It is going to be interesting to see, when we look at this government that has histori cally, year after year been incapable of estima ting the surplus of their government. In 19 95, Mr. Stefanson predicted there would be a $48-million surplus, and he wound up with what? Mr. Deputy Speaker, $15 7 milli on. Oops, oops, we missed.

We want to say that the economy is booming, but we do not want to consider that we are going to then get more revenue from tax. This year again they said it was going to be $22 milli on and, oops, it is more like $14 0 milli on. How can we have any faith in this government when they can be so far off?

Of course we know they are doing this kind of prediction of their surplus only for their own political advantage, but we also know that when you go and talk to people, as I did last night in Transco na, and you ask them, what do you think the government should be doing with $14 0 mil lion of surplus, it is certainly not putting it in their political sock. It is investing it into their kids and into health care, into education, into recreation, social programs or back into some of the other services that this government has been bent on elim inating.

As I said. \1r Deputy Sp eaker, they take glee in elim inating the social services and public sector that have been so important in Manitoba in closing that gap that I was talking about earlier. that gap that continues to grow in our province between those that are struggling on low income and those that are the friends of this government and share their vision. which are doing fine. thank you very much. and perhaps do not need the support of public services in government. * (1 600) In concluding. I just want to say again that there are two things tha t do not go together with this government.

The budget tha t they have introduced does not match. the numbers do not match up with the rhetoric that was in their Throne Speech Debate. They have tried to paint one picture with their words, but when you look at the detail. the numbers and the way that they are taxing people and the way that they are allocating expenses. you see a very different picture. I was listening earlier to the Minister of Housing and Urban Aff

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-3-14
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 3rd hansardpdf 14.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e5c75197e3154446f948fe8df103099a92938d1c

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