Government Services Committee — Department of Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs — 5 July 2002

2002-07-05

Newfoundland and Labrador — Committees

May 2, 2007

GOVERNMENT SERVICES

The Committee met at 7:00

p.m. in the Boardroom at the West Block.

CHAIR (Mr. Oram): Order,

please!

First of all, thanks folks

for coming tonight. It is good to

have everyone here. Just a couple

of things before we start. I guess

we have to take care of some business in terms of electing a Chair.

We will do that now, first.

Does anybody want to vote

for me? I hope this does not

happen in October.

MR. FORSEY:

I nominate Paul Oram, MHA for Terra Nova.

CHAIR:

Okay, and a Vice-Chair as well. We

are going to need a Vice-Chair. We

already have one, right? We

already have one. Okay, fair

enough.

Before we carry on we want

to have everyone introduce themselves. By

the way, you have to press the talk button to speak and then when you are

finished speaking just press the talk button again and the thing will go off.

I will ask the folks on my

left to do their introductions first of all, with your name and your district,

please.

MR. ANDERSEN: Wally

Andersen, MHA for Torngat Mountains.

MR. FORSEY:

Clayton Forsey, MHA for Exploits.

MS E. MARSHALL:

Beth Marshall, MHA for Topsail.

MR. DINN:

John Dinn, MHA for Kilbride.

MR. LANGDON:

Oliver Langdon, MHA for Fortune Bay-Cape la Hune.

MR. SWEENEY:

George Sweeney, MHA for Carbonear-Harbour Grace.

CHAIR:

Okay, and to my right, please.

MR. BOWLES:

Ron Bowles, Assistant Deputy Minister of Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs.

MR. COOMBS:

Robert Coombs, Deputy Minister of Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs.

MR. HICKEY:

John Hickey, MHA for the great district of Lake Melville, Minister of Labrador

Affairs and Minister of Transportation and Works.

MR. HEALEY: Keith

Healey, Assistant Deputy Minister of Strategic Corporate Services,

Transportation and Works.

MR. SALTER:

Dave Salter, Director of Communications, Department of Transportation and

Works and Labrador Affairs.

MR. MERCER:

Cluney Mercer, Assistant Deputy Minister of Transportation.

MR. MOORES:

Weldon Moores, Assistant Deputy Minister of Works.

MR. BYRNE:

John Byrne, Acting Director of Finance, Works Services.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

I think we normally start

off with the minister having an opportunity to have a few words.

MR. HICKEY:

Mr. Chairman, we will be starting with the Department of Labrador and

Aboriginal Affairs and then we will let those officials go.

Then we will go to the bigger piece, which is Transportation and Works.

CHAIR:

Okay. We are going to call the

first head, which is 1.1.01.

CLERK: Subhead

1.1.01.

MR. HICKEY:

I have an opening comment, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR:

Go right ahead, Mr. Minister.

MR. HICKEY:

As the Minister for Labrador Affairs, I am pleased to appear before you to

discuss the Estimates of the Labrador Affairs branch of the Department of

Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs.

Virtually all of the

department = s

activities, including those of which the department is designated, such as

land claim negotiations and implementation and the Northern Strategic Plan

implementation, involve close collaboration with one or more provincial public

entities. Many also involve

Aboriginal groups, governments and the federal government.

With the exception of

small budget initiatives, including the Air Food Lift Subsidy, Combined

Councils of Labrador subsidy, Labrador trails grooming subsidy and the

Williams Harbour air subsidy, the activities of the Labrador Affairs are

essentially advisory in nature and reflective of essential agency more so than

a program delivery agency.

For the fiscal year

2007-2008, the major initiatives are identified in the Grants and Subsidies

where there is an increase of spending of some $555,000, bringing the total

for Grants and Subsidies to $855,000. This

is comprised of two (inaudible) statements, the Combined Councils of Labrador

subsidy transferred to the Department of Labrador Affairs from Municipal

Affairs, $100,000; Williams Harbour air subsidy, $30,000 transferred from

Transportation and Works. There is

a one-time capital investment of $275,000 for the Labrador Winter Trails.

Finally, there is a $150,000 increase in the trail grooming grants.

I am now available, Mr.

Chairman, to discuss the details of the Estimates at your convenience.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

I guess we will start with

Mr. Andersen.

MR. ANDERSEN:

Thank you.

I am not going to get into

great detail into the subheads but there are questions that pertain to

Labrador that I wanted to ask. Also,

the Member for Cartwright-L = Anse

au Clair got called away, her mother is having surgery.

She has gone to the hospital. So,

I was unable to track down the questions that she wanted to ask but I am sure

that she will raise them later on in the House.

The first question,

minister, in the Labrador initiative strategy that you outlined there was $1.6

million for coastal communities to offset the high cost of diesel generated

electricity in these communities. No

doubt, a great, great initiative and one that is welcomed by all people.

The concern that I have is, I have gotten several calls from business

owners because, from what I can understand, they do not quality.

Now, the business owners in these small and isolated communities are

the largest employer and, in some cases, the sole supplier.

You know offhand, being someone who has worked and travelled Labrador

extensively, that the cost to run a small business on the North Coast of

Labrador is far more expensive for heat and lights than a large business in

probably the Upper Lake Melville area and Labrador West.

Would government consider

looking at something to help the business owners in these small communities to

offset their high costs?

MR. HICKEY:

First of all, MHA Andersen, let me say this, the initiative that our

government put forward, certainly - as you can well appreciate - is

unprecedented.

Over the years we have

realized, I guess, for those of us who live in Labrador, that the cost for

electricity in the coastal communities is significant.

Presently, our plan forward, through the initiatives of the Northern

Strategic Plan, is to look at the - this time now, this year, this Budget, was

to look at residential customers.

I think what we have to

understand about the Northern Strategic Plan is that this is not just a

one-time document. This is going

to be a living document that will be updated each and every year.

There will be new initiatives added on.

There will be opportunity to review the plan, to review the feelings of

the people on the Coast of Labrador and, indeed, the people of Labrador

generally. We will, as we go

forward into the future, be looking at these types of initiatives.

Right now, this year, we wanted to touch the ordinary folk, the

residents, and I think, certainly from the reviews that we have received, from

the feedback we have received, that this has been a very generally

well-accepted and, indeed, recognized by groups like the Combined Councils of

Labrador and mayors from the different communities throughout Coastal

Labrador. This initiative is a

good start, it is a step in the right direction.

Certainly, Wally, I think as we move forward we will be reviewing these

types of initiatives. Certainly,

we fully realize the costs incurred to businesses on the North Coast and South

Coast of isolated communities in Coastal Labrador.

MR. ANDERSEN:

Minister, as I said, it is good news. It

is welcomed news, and I guess one will have to wait and see.

Some figures I am given by different people, now that the federal

government offsets Natuashish to the tune of $3 million to offset their hydro

costs - I am hoping that is incorrect because if it costs $3 million to offset

the community of Natuashish, if we look at the five Aboriginal communities on

the North Coast and on the South Coast, then (inaudible) but, no doubt, a good

start. Again, anything that can be

done by you and your department and government to look at, in some way,

probably not as much as what the people (inaudible), in some small way if you

could find some way to alleviate the high cost, certainly would be tremendous.

The second question,

minister - again, one I will be asking in the House, as well as here, and I

mentioned to you before, is that you outlined the rates for the ferries and

the freight hauls in the Province. The

only freight rates that were not mentioned - and I know that it takes a lot of

work to get it done - were long-haul freights for the North Coast of Labrador.

Again, no doubt, you know just as well as I do that these people depend

upon the marine service more so than anyone else in the Province to get their

goods in. As you know, probably 90

per cent of the goods and services come on the long-haul freight, and with the

closing down of Lewisporte Wholesalers these people have to deal with other

companies. What I am told at the

present time on the Island, a lot of times, is that when people bid, or when

people solicit business for the best price to buy their goods and services,

many times the cost to ship it is included.

Again, with the navigation

season very close, and the importance to the North Coast of Labrador, do you

think that some time in the near future you will be able to announce the

long-haul rate?

MR. HICKEY:

My answer to this is very simple. When

I became the Minister of Transportation and Works, one of the first things I

asked my officials to do was to review the freight rates in Coastal Labrador.

That was before we had touched anything else.

What was, I guess, discovered when we started doing our first run at

the analysis was, we had found in many, many cases, for many, many years, that

the freight rates in certain cases, certain categories, were very much higher

than they should be. For instance,

I do not have the exact figures here with me on the detail but I do know one

that came to mind was a twenty-foot container going from Goose Bay to Rigolet,

and I think that was over $600. We

looked at it, and we reduced that by some $444.

We looked at a number of them.

What we did was, we went

immediately - and, of course, that was when we released some of those figures.

The passenger fares were something else, and we looked at that and we

reduced some of those. We looked

at the rates from the communities of Norman = s

Bay, Williams Harbour and Black Tickle, and these communities, and we reduced

those fares. We looked at the

fares on the Apollo crossing the Straits.

Of course, our objective here was road equivalency, obviously, so the

ones that were above road equivalency, when it came to passenger cars and

that, we reduced to road equivalency. The

ones that were below road equivalency, we kept where they were.

For instance, Happy Valley-Goose Bay to Lewisporte did not see a

drastic increase, because if we had to go through road equivalency people

would have been paying $1,400 for a round trip between Goose Bay and

Lewisporte.

Now, there is a second

piece of this that we are going to be doing, that we have already started

inside the department, and that is the commercial aspect of the rates.

We are going to be reviewing that.

We are going to be reviewing, obviously, the long haul.

It is a valid point and it is something that we will certainly take

under consideration to ensure that we give the (inaudible), but I suspect as

we go forward, on a go-forward basis, as we review the rates and as we do our

analysis inside the department, that we will see further improvements.

At least that is my hope and my wish, but again we will have to wait

until the analysis is done.

As far as the scheduling

of the service, we are still going to operate out of Lewisporte the same as we

did last year. We have no plans on

changing any of that. I realize,

though, that the communities on the North Coast of Labrador, the businesses

there, they are obviously looking now at: How do we get our goods to come to

the North Coast? - and, of course, they are obviously looking for suppliers.

As that unfolds and we have knowledge as to where they are getting

their goods, that will also play a role.

We are trying to put rates

down to where they should have been for many years.

It is a huge piece, as you can well appreciate.

We are dealing with everything from fifty-three foot containers,

tractor trailers, right down to pallets, right down to basically small items,

so there is a large spectrum that we have to investigate.

Like I said, we started

that review April 1 and it is a large piece of work.

I cannot really tell you when it will be completed.

The only thing I will say to you is that it will be completed as

quickly as we can get it completed and the analysis done.

MR. ANDERSEN:

Minister, the other

part is that for quite a long period of time now the

people on the North Coast were very skeptical about roads into the North

Coast, and certainly there was very little voice coming forward for roads over

the years. Now, recently, there is

a change, particularly in the area of Makkovik, for Rigolet and Postville.

It all has to start somewhere. I

know that the community of Rigolet, with correspondence from myself and from

the Nunatsiavut Government, the Council of Rigolet has the blessing of the

Nunatsiavut Government to seek funds for a feasability study.

The same as any major mining operation or road that is going to be

built, there is a feasability study that needs to be done.

Do you think anywhere in

the near future that your government might look at the possibility of the road

from North West River to Rigolet - money for the feasability study?

MR. HICKEY:

Let me say this, Wally, and you know this as well as I do, we have a new

government in Nunatsiavut which controls the communities from Rigolet to Nain,

and we have no intention of negotiating with a community.

As I told your brother Tony, when we were in Nunavut, when he asked me

the question, I said: Look, until your government, until we, as a government -

I, as a minister - get some correspondence from William Andersen III and the

Nunatsiavut Government, that they are willing to sit down and talk about these

types of issues - and I can tell you to date I have not received any

correspondence in that regard - then we will not be moving forward with roads

on the North Coast of Labrador.

Having said that, I

certainly believe - I have always believed - that the people on the North

Coast of Labrador should have a road network connecting them.

I think the time is right. The

Land Claims for Nunatsiavut have been settled, they have their own government,

but I can only say this to you: We will need to see some overtures.

I can also tell you that

senior officials with the Nunatsiavut Government, certain senior officials

with the Nunatsiavut Government, have made comments to the fact that they are

not planning on looking at any roads to the North Coast of Labrador, and have

no desire; so we have been getting mixed messages, there is no question about

it.

As I told Tony, and as I

tell you, if the Nunatsiavut Government wants to move forward with this

particular initiative then I would suggest that William Andersen III, as the

President of the Nunatsiavut Government, put pen to paper and certainly

indicate his government = s

direction. Then we will see where

it goes from there.

MR. ANDERSEN:

Again, just to be clear, you are saying that if the Nunatsiavut Government

comes out in support with these communities for a road that you will sit down

and talk with them?

MR. HICKEY:

Absolutely, no question.

In my former life as the

Mayor of Happy Valley-Goose Bay, I supported the opportunity for road networks

to the North Coast of Labrador. When

I was President of the Combined Councils of Labrador, I supported those types

of initiatives, and I support those types of initiatives today, but we are in

a very much different political climate today in Northern Labrador than we

were back in 1990-1991.

Certainly, from my

perspective, yes, but we will need to see a letter with the intention from the

Nunatsiavut Government on how they want to move forward, how they would like

to cost-share such an initiative. I

think there is general interest out there, certainly in the private sector,

with the development of a mine, with the uranium exploration, possibly a

uranium mine maybe somewhere down the road, some of these initiatives.

Yes, it would be a good

initiative and I would certainly be willing to sit down and talk with the

Nunatsiavut Government.

MR. ANDERSEN:

Minister, another great concern, again particularly for the people on the

North Coast, is the issue of Canada Post, which is run by the federal

government. Again, tonight, in

front of the officials, I want to give the same example, that the North Coast

of Labrador that I represent is considered to be in the northern division.

You do up two packages - a

water bottle. You get two, you do

one up, and you get another one and do it up again.

You walk into the post office in Happy Valley-Goose Bay, and the one

that you ship to Vancouver Island through parcel post, Canada Post, you can

ship for basically one-third the cost to ship it to the North Coast of

Labrador.

Minister, where people

depend upon Canada Post as a bank, a drugstore, a hardware store, and, for a

lot of people, a grocery store, I know that I have lobbied the government over

the years to try and change the strategy.

Recently, we met with

Canada Post in Ottawa, with the federal MP, Todd Russell.

I am asking you - because I am sure that many of your officials have a

lot of correspondence that was done previously - would you, on behalf of the

people on the North Coast of Labrador, take up that issue with the federal

government, through Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs?

I have talked with Minister Ottenheimer from Intergovernmental Affairs,

I have asked Minister Rideout from Aboriginal Affairs, and they have agreed to

do correspondence, but I am asking you, as Minister of Labrador and Aboriginal

Affairs, would you also take up that cause as well for the people on the North

Coast?

MR. HICKEY:

Wally, it is like this: As a Labradorian, I will pick up whatever cause I have

to pick up for the people of Labrador, and that includes the North Coast of

Labrador. That has been my track

record in my years of politics, and it will be my track record going forward,

so let there be no mistake about that.

This issue has been a

long-standing issue, and I know you have had your say on it.

It has been discussed with the federal government.

It was discussed with the previous Liberal government.

My good friend and your good friend, Hank Shouse, sat on the postal

committee and this was an issue that has been, but we have not seen the

political will on the Ottawa end, both by the former Liberals and I have not

seen, to date, any progress from the Conservatives up there, to want to move

in that direction.

The only thing I will say

to you, and my deputy here will ensure, is that as we correspond with the

federal government this will be articulated to them at every opportunity.

It was discussed with Minister Hearn in a meeting I held last year in

Ottawa. He did not seem to know

much about it at that particular point in time, but certainly it was an issue

because Winston and I have been talking to people on the North Coast of

Labrador. It is a valid point you

are making. It is something that

should be corrected, and I certainly have no problem in continuing to lobby on

the part of the people of the North Coast of Labrador.

Having said that, we are

still maintaining a food lift subsidy. I

think we put in another $100,000 through the Northern Strategic Plan.

We are now at $400,000, the most that we have ever seen in the Air Food

Lift Subsidy, because we understand the cost of goods and services to the

people of the North Coast of Labrador.

We have, again, lowered

the transportation freight rates. We

are hoping that the businesses on the North Coast of Labrador takes that

savings that they are getting on freight and transfers this over to the

consumer because there is no question about it, I have spent a good many

nights in every community on the Coast of Labrador and I have been into every

store there, and there is no question that the price of food on the North

Coast of Labrador is just absolutely outrageous.

It has been blamed, in the past, because of high freight rates.

That was the excuse. Well,

we have done something about the freight rates.

So I am going to be very interested now to see if that savings on

freight can be, has been or will be in the future, transferred to the pockets

of the ordinary citizens in the communities on the North Coast of Labrador.

MR. ANDERSEN:

Mr. Chair, if you want to cut in and give someone else a chance.

I will not hog the floor. I

have more, unless someone else wants to -

CHAIR:

Well, we can do that. We can just

check and see if there is somebody else who wants to speak before you, or we

can continue.

Mr. Forsey.

MR. FORSEY:

Wally can carry on. He is doing a

good job.

CHAIR:

Anyone else?

Okay, Wally, carry on.

We are happy enough.

MR. ANDERSEN:

Minister, the importance of 911, particularly for the coastal communities, is

there anything in the plans to bring in the service of 911 to -

MR. HICKEY:

Yes, we are going to take a look at the whole issue of 911 right across

Labrador

Rob, do you want to make

any comment on that particular point from the business perspective?

MR. COOMBS:

Yes, minister.

There is a commitment in

the Northern Strategic Plan to examine the potential for a 911 system on the

Coast of Labrador. That will be

undertaken by the Emergency Measures. Ron?

MR BOWLES:

That is correct. That is right,

yes.

MR. ANDERSEN:

Minister, I know that the federal government is in the process of - or has put

in some funds for housing. Nowhere,

I guess, is there a need for housing more than on the North Coast of Labrador.

I have always said that, I did not feel that Newfoundland and Labrador

Housing was the way to go on the North Coast.

In the communities of

Hopedale and Postville, we do not having a housing shortage.

We have had a housing crisis now - I think in 2000 I convinced the

provincial government to build an additional thirty houses over three years,

over and above when they would build.

Does government, through

Labrador Affairs, have any plans or have there been any discussions to look at

probably doing something with the Nunatsiavut Government to -

MR. HICKEY:

Yes. Let me say this on that.

Housing is a very, very important issue in all Aboriginal communities.

We have, certainly, needs on the North Coast of Labrador, we have needs

Central Labrador

, we have needs in the Aboriginal communities

on the South Coast of Labrador, the Metis communities, particularly Port Hope

Simpson. I was there last year and

saw that there is a need there.

Having said that, we do

have some funds. I will get Rob to

speak to the details of that, but as I understand it right now, there is some

disagreement between the Nunatsiavut Government and the federal government on

the whole issue of housing for the North Coast.

We have had dialogue

between the department and the Nunatsiavut Government.

I can only say this, I fully agree that the need is there.

I fully agree there is a responsibility on the North Coast of Labrador

to get more housing done out there, but I understand that this dispute now has

been going on for some months.

You might want to give

more detail. I know that you have

been doing some work on that, Rob. You

may just want to give a little more detail as to exactly where it is today.

MR. COOMBS:

Yes, minister, you are correct. It

is coined as off reserve Aboriginal housing and it is actually handled through

our Aboriginal Affairs branch, who is involved in it through the provincial

side. There is $8.3 million that

is here as block funding for extra housing.

The issue at hand, the

minister addressed. The detail of

it is that under the terms of the Labrador Inuit Land Claims Agreement, there

is a detail of how the consultation with the federal and provincial

governments should be undertaken. The

issue at hand has to do with: How do you tease out of the block funding an

amount that is appropriate for the needs of the various Aboriginal communities

and what should be the mechanisms by which the Nunatsiavut Government, in

particular, gets its share? This

agreement is under the implementation under the Land Claims Agreement and what

that amount is. Discussions are

ongoing.

The latest information I

have is that officials from the Nunatsiavut Government, the Province and the

federal government are going to sit down and try to resolve the issue, in very

quick fashion, as the need is - as the minister indicated, it is not a great

need, it is a crisis need. So the

hope is that it will be resolved very shortly.

MR. ANDERSEN:

Let me say this, I did not have the opportunity before, but congratulations on

your appointment to Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs.

I wish you well.

I am certainly aware of

the conflict. It goes back, I

guess, to the Land Claims, where the federal government were supposed to

negotiate with the Nunatsiavut Government prior to the dispersion of the

(inaudible) funds.

The monies passed down

comes from the federal government, I know are to be disbursed by the Province,

but the question I want to know: Has the Province had any discussions of

putting in some of their own money to alleviate the housing crisis in these

communities, should the funding from the federal government not cover -

MR. HICKEY:

Let = s

be frank here. Obviously, the

responsibility for housing lies with the federal government.

Certainly, from our perspective, through the departments, we expect the

federal government to come to the table and we expect to get these issues -

but, you know, when I hear correspondence - I saw a letter the other day, I

believe it was from Toby, where basically we are talking we may be going to

court over this. So, if we get

into a court case, these funds and these opportunities could be held up for a

while.

We want to ensure, first

and foremost, that the federal government - whose responsibility it is to the

Land Claims process and to these Aboriginal communities that they are really

responsible for - live up to their commitments.

From our perspective, we will be working with the Nunatsiavut

Government and we will be working with the federal government to try to get

some resolve for this so that we can move this forward and we can get

construction. We believe there is

a significant amount of money there. The

Nunatsiavut Government, obviously, with some of the revenues that they will be

receiving from Voisey = s

Bay, revenue sharing from other developments on the North Coast, certainly

there may be opportunities for some of those funds also.

The bottom line, I guess,

Wally, is that we will continue, at this particular juncture, to push the

federal government to get this issue settled with the Nunatsiavut Government

so we can get on with construction. We

know the need is great. As the

deputy said, we have had crisis in housing on the North Coast of Labrador for

many, many, many years and we understand that full well.

MR. ANDERSEN:

Minister, can you, I guess in a nutshell, sum up where we stand with 5 Wing

Goose Bay?

MR. HICKEY:

Well, I can only say this, 5 Wing Goose Bay is a major fall for me and has

been a major fall for twenty years, for my time in politics.

At the present time, you know and I know what we have been promised and

committed to. We have commitments

from the Prime Minister, we have commitments from Minister O = Connor,

the Minister of National Defence, we have commitments from Minister Hearn.

I have had several meetings in Ottawa, very early in my mandate as a

minister, to discuss these issues.

We fully expect the

commitment that the Prime Minister made to Premier Williams, and to our

government, is going to be lived up to. 5

Wing Goose Bay was a number one priority; certainly, I think in the top five

priorities of our government overall. It

was in our Blue Book commitment. We

expect to see 650 troops on the ground. We

expect to see a UAV Squadron in Goose Bay.

I can tell you that we are also exploring with the civil aviation

sector. Right now, I am in

consultation with a number of private sector companies that have shown great

interest in Goose Bay. I am in

constant contact with the union. As

a matter of fact, I met with the union here in St. John = s

just last night. We had some

meetings here.

It is certainly a large

fall for me. It is foremost on my

mind. I fully understand that

there are 350 unionized men and women at 5 Wing Goose Bay.

I fully realize the impact that the closure of that base would have on

the economy of Goose Bay, on the Towns of Happy Valley-Goose Bay and Northwest

River. The only thing I can say to

you, we are now waiting the outcome, or the release of the A Canada

First @

defence plan. It is a major

document that the federal government has said will etch out our role in the

Canadian military into the future.

We believe there are great

opportunities in the unmanned air vehicle aspect of this.

I am having talks at a number of different levels, with different

companies and organizations. Although

I will not make much comment on that further here now, I will say this, we are

having success on a number of other different fronts.

I am pleased with, and that the Union of National Defence Employees are

very pleased with some of the progress that we are seeing certainly on the

other fronts.

Let me make myself clear,

we are committed, Premier Williams is committed, our government is committed,

has been right from day one - no other Premier in the history of the Province

of Newfoundland and Labrador has talked about, has championed at every

opportunity 5 Wing Goose Bay, and we will continue to do that.

We think there is a large role for the Canadian military to play in

Goose Bay. We have $1 billion

piece of infrastructure there. We

think there are great opportunities there and we certainly are going to keep

the federal minister and the federal government = s

toes to the fire when it comes to the issues of 5 Wing Goose Bay.

MR. ANDERSEN:

Minister, another pressing issue for the residents on the North Coast of

Labrador - and I wrote the Minister of Environment six months ago.

I understand they asked one of my colleagues to ask a question in the

Estimates, I think it was last night or this morning, but I did not get a

chance to get the full answer that he was giving.

That is, when I wrote a letter to the Minister of Environment regarding

the fuel tank inspections, I not only asked for an extension, but if there was

a way that something could be done to help alleviate the cost.

Again, for the members

here, we do not have any inspectors who are qualified inspectors on the North

Coast to inspect the fuel tanks. If

someone in Nain wanted a fuel tank inspection, they would have to pay the $748

airline ticket, plus the accommodations, plus the meals, plus the installation

fee.

I understand that

government has said something, that they will work with the Combined Councils

to alleviate the problem. Could

you elaborate a little further on that?

MR. HICKEY:

We are very much familiar with this whole issue of fuel tanks on the North

Coast of Labrador. I think it was

our government that granted the extension to the people on the North Coast of

Labrador. We understand the

challenges. We understand the

challenges up there, obviously, to try to regulate such a - but we also see

the need that we have to ensure that, from an environmental perspective, there

are ways and means that we.... Some

of those tanks, as you well know, are there a long time and need to be changed

out. The inspection process is

obviously an issue. In my role as

the minister, and our department, we will certainly work with whomever to try

to ensure that the mandate that is required as far as the change of these

tanks does happen. We will try to

work with the communities, and indeed the Combined Councils of Labrador is one

entity that we certainly will be - you know, we have a great relationship with

the Combined Councils. I have a

great relationship with the Combined Councils, so I look forward to working on

all of those issues as we move forward into the future.

MR. ANDERSEN:

I think it was after I wrote the minister that he announced the extension, so

I was pleased that he responded to my call.

MR. HICKEY:

The only thing I can say to that, Wally, is this: This has been an issue that

has been up there for many years. You

may have called for it, fair enough, but I would like you to know that it is

this government that is going to look at doing something about it.

MR. ANDERSEN:

At the time that it was implemented, it was very late in our mandate.

As a matter of fact, I think it was at the close of our mandate.

Again, yes, I did write the minister and he responded to me.

MR. HICKEY:

As we have responded, Wally, to many needs.

MR. ANDERSEN:

Yes, and I hope they will continue to respond.

MR. HICKEY:

We will continue, absolutely.

MR. ANDERSEN:

Because certainly, Minister, I will be asking the questions.

The other thing is a

federal matter, but it would be one for your people in Labrador and Aboriginal

Affairs as it relates to the EI program. On

Wednesday of next week myself and the MP, along with some other people, will

be meeting with Monte Solberg. Again,

myself and a good friend of ours,

Lawrence

O = Brien,

met with the federal government on many occasions, and that was on the EI

benefits for the people, basically the Aboriginal fish harvesters on the North

Coast of Labrador. While we were

not asking for higher benefits, we were asking, because of our geographic

location, for an extension to the North Coast for EI benefits.

The reason why is because we have the shortest fishing season.

Now, plant workers are

pretty well taken care of, Minister, in that their EI usually carries them

through until such a time as the plants open, but today I think there are only

three fish harvesters in my riding who are able to continue drawing their EI,

and I think they have one more cheque.

The point I made to these

people is that we hear of fishermen on the Island, when ice conditions get

severe, they extend EI benefits, which I agree with 100 per cent.

Yet, when they take to their boats, when the ice moves out, we still

have fishermen on the North Coast of Labrador, where you can drive out on a

Ski-Doo and say, when the ice moves out of here in two months =

time, this is where I will put my char nets.

You drive through Harmony Run in Nain, where there is three or four

feet of ice, and you say, in two months =

time, when the ice goes out, this is where we will fish for our scallops.

I am asking you, as

Minister of Labrador Affairs, through your staff, if there is anything that

you can do as well to push the federal government to try and see some light on

the circumstances. As their EI

benefits run out, those who choose to be fishermen will remain fishermen on

the North Coast of Labrador.

Granted, we have done very

well over the last number of years with Voisey = s

Bay and other development, and with our storm quarries, but in every other

place we have fishermen, and a lot of those have very little education.

They are qualified to do what they do best.

We honestly and truly

believe, because of the geographic location we live in, for probably an extra

$50,000 a year, the federal government should extend EI benefits to fish

harvesters on the North Coast of Labrador until mid to late June.

Again, on behalf of the

fishermen, I am asking you: Would you and your department lobby to do what you

can to, I guess, make that a reality?

MR. HICKEY:

As I said earlier, Wally, we will lobby if it is in the best interest of the

people in the communities on the North Coast of Labrador, the individuals and

fishermen. We will do whatever we

can to lobby the federal government, but this is not an issue that came up

yesterday. This is an issue that

has been there for a long time, and I am sure, with the relationship that our

present Member of Parliament has with Ottawa, that he will probably have great

success getting that onto the radar screen.

For my part, I will

continue also to push it forward. It

is a valid question, and there is a valid answer as to why the federal

government should consider some of these benefits to fishermen on the North

Coast of Labrador, so we will put our best foot forward, Wally, as we do on

all files, to ensure that the federal government understands some of the

issues that are out on the North Coast of Labrador.

MR. ANDERSEN:

Minister, the last question I will ask you tonight on Labrador Affairs is

probably a bit of an emotional one.

I went through the

Northern Strategic Plan, which is a lot of good news, tremendous good news,

for Labrador. Granted, some things

that I would have liked to have seen there maybe were not there, but then

again that is my job as an Opposition to voice my concerns as to some of the

things I feel should have been there.

One thing in the Budget

and in the Northern Strategic Plan that I did not hear - now, maybe it is in

there somewhere - was additional monies, or maybe not even monies but ways to

end the suicides that plague our young Aboriginal people on the North Coast of

Labrador. I heard nothing in the

Budget for initiatives to try and find ways and means to deal with it.

I guess it is not a question of money, because probably money is not

the answer, but to form some form of strategy to put things in place to stop

it, because far too many have gone. That

is something that I would like to have seen addressed.

Now, Minister, maybe it is

there somewhere and I have not seen it, but that is something that I would

like to see government move forward on probably more so than any other issue

that I have raised here tonight.

MR. HICKEY:

Let me say this, Wally: We fully understand the plight, and we understand that

many of those young people on the North Coast of Labrador have taken their

lives. I know their families, and

in many cases I know them too, so let me say this: It is certainly something

that is on my radar screen.

When I look at the

community of Natuashish right now, and the neglect that has been put in that

particular community, the fact that we have forty kids in Ontario, and the

fact that there are another twenty slotted to go, is not acceptable to me as

the Minister of Labrador Affairs. It

is not acceptable to our Premier - Premier Williams is very much aware of it -

it is not acceptable to the Minister of Health, and it is not acceptable to

our government.

I am now working, and have

been for some time, with the Innu nation.

Daniel Ashini and I met just last week, when he met with Premier

Williams, and this issue was discussed. It

is a large issue. It is not an

easy issue to deal with. We have

put funds in place for suicide prevention.

I think if we look, some $70,000 has been slotted under the Grants and

Subsidies part of the Northern Strategic Plan for Aboriginal suicide

prevention initiatives. Just this

week we gave - as a matter of fact, on Monday morning, Bonnie delivered a

$10,000 cheque to the Metis so that they, too, can look at communities on the

South Coast to ensure that we do not lose any more of our young people.

We have many, many

challenges, social challenges, on the North Coast of Labrador, and it is our

wish, our desire, to work with the communities, to work with the Nunatsiavut

Government, and to improve the present situation.

Let me say this for the

record: This issue certainly is something that is very close to my heart and

very close to me as far as having known some of the families and some of the

individuals who have taken their lives - young men, young women, and in many

cases just youth. That is why we

are bolstering some of the things on the North Coast of Labrador, like the

travel subsidies, so kids can get out and compete in competitions and sports.

That is why we have put the cultural subsidy in there, to again give

kids the opportunity to get out of their communities, to see and to express

themselves.

The auditorium in Happy

Valley-Goose Bay, on which we will be starting construction, certainly tenders

will be going out there, I hope, in the not-too-distant future, so that we can

improve the arts. When we look at

the North Coast of Labrador and we look at the Labrador Creative Arts

Festival, it is just a tremendous time in which these small communities and

youth and kids can come in and partake in this.

It is a huge issue, Wally,

and let me say this: You are passionate about it, I know, but let me say that

you are no more passionate about it than John Hickey; I can tell you that.

MR. ANDERSEN:

Minister, I am not saying this to criticize, but I know that they travel out,

which is good, and they get a chance to showcase the arts of different things:

music, you name it. That is fine

and it is good, but what happens is, these suicides happen right in our

communities. If we could start

looking at maybe - I know there is an initiative here now with infrastructure.

As a matter of fact, I have two proposals in to Minister Byrne, which

he is going to look at in the next couple of days, where the communities have

put aside monies from the trust fund to begin to build an arena.

I think a big step in dealing with some of the social problems that we

face in the communities is a lack of facilities within the community to do

things. They are at home and they

are among the best. In many cases

they are the best when they travel outside of other communities, but I

honestly believe that the time has come to begin looking at right where it

happens and why. Probably one of

the biggest reasons is the lack of sports facilities.

I know, personally, that

two weeks ago walking down a street in Hopedale, three young boys came up to

me and said: Can we have an outdoor rink?

When you look at, I guess around different parts of the Province, and

after spending eighteen years with minor hockey, to hear some people say:

Well, boy, we are going to cut down now. We

do not have to drive that thirty minutes to get to hockey anymore, to host an

event.

So, again, I hope under

that new infrastructure program, through your department, that every effort

will be made, and I ask people to put their requests forward.

I know they have to come up with ways and means to maintain them, but

it seems to have started. I think

at home is a good start. Where we

lose these people in our communities, I think that is where we need to

concentrate.

Through soul searching, I

know that the people themselves have to play a key role as well, but there are

times when they need a lot of help and sometime, not all, but sometimes

financial reasons are behind a lot of it.

MR. HICKEY:

Well, Wally, I just want to say, we are all on the same page here when it

comes to these types of initiatives. Having

said that, too, we can all come with our asks and we can all point this out,

but let me say this, the Nunatsiavut Government has a responsibility now to

their communities.

The Nunatsiavut Government

is going to see, as I said earlier, some major influx of cash and benefits,

both from the federal and private sector for some of these needs.

I think the Nunatsiavut Government has to take responsibility for their

communities and for those needs.

From my role as the

Minister of Labrador Affairs, I can only say to you that we welcome the

opportunity to work with, we welcome the opportunity to look at a plan ahead.

We were involved just recently with the establishment of the Aboriginal

Sport Circle with Trevor Payne, and I attended those meetings, as did my

colleague, Minister Tom Hedderson. They

were very pleased with the response they got from both myself and Minister

Hedderson, and our departments. Will

we have everything built and looked after in every community all in one year?

No. But, as we move forward

with this Northern Strategic plan, these are initiatives - as I said earlier,

this plan has an approved blueprint. It

is a way forward into the future and these issues will be addressed.

Rob, do you want to make

any additional comments there on that particular aspect?

MS COOMBS:

Yes, thank you, minister.

I was just going to add,

Mr. Andersen, that the minister is correct.

What you raised, sports playing a huge role in the community

well-being, is recognized by a lot of people and there are a lot of advocates

for it, including the minister, yourself, and a lot of communities

representatives. I know, in my

capacity as Deputy Minister, the one issue I have from the Aboriginal fear

side in particular is that federal government programs do not cover sports in

terms of Aboriginal communities, and that is a major, major shortcoming.

At my level, I am going to raise these issues.

It is a priority issue for

me in terms of my performance contract with government.

When I meet with my federal, provincial and territorial counterparts I

am going to start to raise this issue because I think the impact on children -

you know, you have been involved in sports in Labrador for a long time

yourself and you know the impact of sports on the physic of children and their

families. The role it can play in

community wellness is immense, but I do not think it has ever been approached

in that context, particularly from a federal government side.

If you look at our Land

Claims agreements, there are articles and chapters for various aspects of

basic services. The holistic

approach to addressing some of these issues, particularly the suicide one,

there is nothing that really treats the problem.

There is a lot of treatment of symptoms, and I think the minister has

touched on a number of initiatives that are being looked at.

If you look in terms of $70,000, it is not a lot but it goes a long

way. I think it is a problem that

is going to be addressed from a whole full spectrum of approaches, and sport

is going to be a big part of that.

The minister mentioned the

Aboriginal Sport Circle because it is going to play a big role.

I know as officials, past ADMs in both Labrador Affairs and Aboriginal

Affairs, to really look at the issue of sports and the impact it can have on

that particular issue in the Aboriginal communities,

because you are correct. The

infrastructure is getting there but I think there is a long way to go.

I think that once it starts to improve we will see the benefit of it

very, very quickly and, hopefully, see a reduction in the incidence of suicide

that we see in all of these communities.

MR. HICKEY:

There is one other issue, Wally, I think we have to address, and that is the

issue of substance abuse right now on the North Coast of Labrador.

Particularly in Natuashish, to say the least, it is frightening from

some of the reports that I am hearing, cocaine abuse, crystal meth.

My God, whoever would have thought that we would see the drug crystal

meth in the small community of Natuashish.

We have alcohol abuse and substance abuse, from that perspective.

I think, as we move forward, these are issues.

I have had discussions

with the Minister of Health. As a

matter of fact, we talked about this just yesterday.

He is very concerned about it. When

we look at some of the other Aboriginal communities - again, similar types,

not probably to the degree we are seeing in Natuashish, but one of the things

that certainly I want us to concentrate on as we move forward is to, one, look

at the substance abuse that are involving some of our youth, but I also think

when we look at the number of social workers required on the North Coast of

Labrador - we just had recent announcements where we are hiring more social

workers. One social worker in

Natuashish is not going to dent the problems in that little community when you

have probably in excess of sixty children who are involved in some sort of

substance abuse.

Then we have to go a

little further and address the issues of mom and dad, because for too long the

practices of the past was to take the kids out, treat them, only to send them

back to the same home where mom and dad had not gotten help, only for them to

relapse back into. I think it is

time that we started putting the cards on the table.

This is not about politics. This

is not about Conservatism or Liberalism. This

is about doing the right thing.

I can tell you right now,

just yesterday morning I met with Health officials here and representatives

from Memorial University. One of

the things that we are exploring right now, and both the deputy minister and

assistant deputy minister are very much involved in this, this is a very

active file, where we are exploring, with Dr. Jong and the Grenfell Health

Labrador Corporation, the opportunity to look at what is happening in

Australia where they are making a new product called opal gas.

Opal gas is a gas that is used to cycle (inaudible) car engines, but

they take out the ingredient which allows a kid to sniff it to get high.

We are actually talking,

and have been now for some time, and working on this with Memorial University.

There is a delegation going to Australia to (inaudible) this further.

We are also talking about producing this gas here in Newfoundland and

Labrador with the opportunity of the new refinery that is coming on stream,

owning Come by Chance. Some of the

investors there have indicated they would like to certainly look at this

opportunity.

So, we are trying our best

to try to address this, but this is a massive issue.

It has been something that has been happening up there.

I worked the Coast of Labrador for twenty-five years with Newfoundland

Hydro and I am fully aware - and I have been in Natuashish, as I have been in

Davis Inlet, and at 2:00 o = clock

in the morning when you see little three year olds out in the streets because

they cannot go home, mom and dad are fighting because of substance issues.

It is sad commentary.

Like I said, this is not

about Liberalism or Conservatism, it is about doing the right thing.

I know Premier Williams is very much aware of this.

He is very concerned about it and he has shown great support for us to

move forward to look at possible solutions.

Wally, on that note, I

just want to say to you here this evening, as one Labradorian to another, I

will certainly work with anybody to improve the lot of those children and

their families because I think we have to look at this from a holistic

perspective of the family. It is a

huge challenge and I look forward to making improvements, seeing improvements,

and championing it wherever I go.

Thanks.

MR. ANDERSEN:

My final comment, because I have also covered the issues through Labrador

Affairs as it relates to transportation in my riding.

Minister, again, the part of the whole suicide would cover the drugs,

the solvent abuse, and as I said, at home, and that meaning too is mom and

dad. I know that the Nunatsiavut

Government has to take the bull by the horns to play the lead role.

In closing, let me say

this, I have talked to various groups across Canada who had done land claims.

One of the first things they found out after they did a land claim is

that provincial and federal governments try to download some things on the

territorial governments once they get their land claims deal.

By doing that, taking away dollars that they need to build

infrastructure that many other communities in different provinces have.

I only hope that it will not happen here with this government and I

certainly hope that it will not happen with the federal government.

I will be honest with you, in some cases we have seen where the federal

government has already began to, I guess, shy away from some of their

responsibilities, saying: Well, you guys now should do this.

If the Nunatsiavut

Government has to go out there and spend a pile of money on infrastructure

which other communities get and enjoy, then the true meaning of a land claims

deal for them will soon fall back. It

has happened elsewhere. Again,

that is a concern that I have and one that, as a member, I will always

address. Again, not saying that

your government will do it, but I hope it never comes to that from the

Province and from the federal government.

Minister, the bottom line is this, if these things start to happen then

the goodwill of the whole negotiating deal and the idea of letting these

people have self-government and self-determination, and if they have to start

using their money to run programs that were previously run by government,

then, as I said, their land claims will crumble and the problems will probably

never, ever get a chance to be resolved.

On that, I say thank you

for answering the questions that I have raised here tonight.

I wish you and your Department of Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs the

best and wish you every success as you move forward.

Minister, it is the best portfolio that government has ever had.

I was honoured to be part of a government that brought it in and,

certainly, I know the feelings that you have in your role in carrying out that

job as the of Minister of Labrador Affairs.

MR. HICKEY:

Thanks, Wally.

My closing note I suppose

is this, as you well know, the Province and the federal government entered

into Land Claims negotiations with the, at the time, Labrador Inuit

Association. My sense of the world

is this, the Nunatsiavut Government - and I will say this, since they have

taken power and since they have started over the last year or so, our

Department of Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs has worked closely with them

because we understand they are in transition.

We understand they have much to learn about this whole issue of

governance and we have stood with them. We

have supported them when it was appropriate to do so and we will continue on

that course.

Having said that, there is

an agreement. We will live up to

our obligations of that particular agreement and what we, as a government,

signed off on. The Department of

Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs will continue to dialogue, support, lobby,

help, do whatever we have to do to improve the lot of the communities and the

Aboriginal people on the North Coast of Labrador, as long as I am the

minister. I think my track record

speaks for itself. We have many

serious challenges, yes, but I think they can be overcome.

I think we are working on these challenges and I think we are making

progress and moving in the right direction.

I thank you for your

questions this evening.

CHAIR:

I think, if I am not mistaken, Mr. Langdon has a question.

MR. LANGDON:

The Conne River Band Council in Conne River is a community that has done a lot

of work and has improved itself considerably over the years.

I can remember in the early days as a boy growing up, but I will not go

into that history because of time. If

I heard correctly - if I did not, then you can correct me - there are probably

twenty people who have left Northern Labrador, gone to Alberta for treatment

and another forty about to go. Are

these figures -

MR. HICKEY:

Forty and twenty.

MR. LANGDON:

Forty and twenty, it was the other way around.

I am wondering, has there

ever been any thought of sending some of those kids to, say, Conne River,

rather than to Labrador? They

might not have everything that is in Alberta but the fact that it is their own

Province, even though it is a different band - I am not sure if there is turf

building. I never hear from Misel

Joe that there is and I am not close to Sheshatshiu or Natuashish in Labrador.

From my observation over the last eighteen years, especially

representing these people, they have come a tremendous long way.

They are a government unto themselves in all the activity that they

have. I am wondering if there has

ever been any consideration in sending some of those kids to

Conne

River

MR. HICKEY:

No. Obviously, when I discuss this

issue I sort of try to take the advice that I get from the elders and from the

leadership of the Innu Nation. I

can say to you that our sense of world is

we want to treat these kids in

Labrador

close to their families, close to their friends.

You have to understand, too, of course, that Sheshatshiu and Natuashish

is very much different than Conne River. Although

in Conne River there may be Aboriginal communities, the whole dynamics of the

politics inside the communities are very much different.

They have much more of a unique culture.

It is a unique language; it is a unique issue.

So, my sense and my vision

and my mission will be to seek treatment in Labrador where the Aboriginal

leadership, particularly in Natuashish and Sheshatshiu, can be involved in

this treatment. We have had

discussions with Daniel Ashini regarding building more units in which safe

houses - these types of initiatives. We

are working with Health Labrador. We

have a unique set of circumstances in Labrador when it comes to some of these

challenges. I will say to you

though, I know Chief Michael Joe - a very, very wise man.

I always enjoy talking with him, chatting with him.

I think he has a lot to offer.

Having said that, Conne

River has come a long way from what it used to be probably many years ago, but

they are starting to spread their wings, as we say.

They are formulating their own destiny as they move forward.

We are working with Conne River on a number of different fronts.

The Aboriginal Sport Circle is something that, when we met with them,

Conne River was at the table. I

can tell you, Minister Rideout and the Premier both held Aboriginal women = s

conferences. We have hosted those.

We have hosted in Conne River. There

is a relationship that has been building, I must say, probably more so now

than ever before between Conne River and the Innu and the Aboriginal people of

Labrador. I think that is a

positive thing and it is a positive influence.

MR. LANGDON:

Okay. I just have one more

question, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR:

No problem.

MR. LANGDON:

You know what it is like in politics, one leads to another.

Again, a few days ago,

hearing about the number of caribou that have been slaughtered probably on the

southern part of Labrador - I am not sure exactly where.

I know that all governments are trying to protect the herd, it is an

endangered species and so on. How

did this happen? I am not being

critical, John, that is not where I am coming from.

I am just looking for information.

How could these people come across from Labrador, knowing the condition

of the herd and so on, and just slaughter these animals and end up with that?

MR. HICKEY:

Let me say this about that particular issue.

John Hickey, as an individual out of Labrador, has been dealing with

this issue for many years. In my

early days - Wally would remember this - the Mealy Mountain Caribou Herd, I

was one of the founding members of what was called the Labrador East Caribou

Hunters Association at the time. We

had set up sort of a body. It

since has not be active, but at the time we also had a Rob and Gun Club.

At the time, Garfield Warren was the minister of the day and Garfield

gave the licences out - I think Wally was working for Garfield at the time,

probably with Labrador services?

MR. ANDERSEN:

No.

MR. HICKEY:

No? You were not working for

Garfield at the time?

MR. ANDERSEN:

No, I worked for the Labrador stores. I

did not work for Garfield.

MR. HICKEY:

Okay. Anyway, getting back to the

story on that, just so that we don = t

prolong it.

At the time there was a

kill in the Mealy Mountains where Innu people had gone over and killed this

protected herd and Garfield had issued a whole bunch of licenses.

I took every cent out of the Rod and Gun Club and went down and

purchased the licences, went to the steps of the wildlife office, called the

CBC camera crew and burned them on the steps of the wildlife office.

That is how strongly I feel about this caribou herd, and I feel just as

strongly today as I did then.

The problem we face down

there is this, we have a herd of caribou that we have been trying to protect.

When you look at Labrador = s

caribou herds, there are three herds that we want to protect.

We have the Mealy Mountain Caribou Herd to the Southeast of Goose Bay,

we have the Lac Joseph Herd which is over in Labrador West, and then we have

the Red Wine Herd which is sort of in Central Labrador.

These herds are unique and my argument has always been, although we

have the George River Caribou herd which migrates between the Province of

Quebec and Labrador, a large herd - close on 800,000 to 900,000 animals in

that herd - these small herds in Labrador we need to protect, because they are

unique unto Labrador; their whole life cycle is in Labrador.

What happened last week is

just another instance where we have - and we are not sure exactly who they

were, but we are pretty sure that these culprits came out of the Quebec North

Shore. We also know that when it

comes to the Innu, they do not respect any borders between Labrador.

I get calls from Churchill Falls. We

have seen forty-five foot trucks loaded up with caribou heading out.

There is not really a whole lot we can do about it because of the

simple fact that they are permitted to hunt for subsistence hunting, ceremony,

gathering and all of this.

Let me say this, we, this

year, in the Northern Strategic Plan, put some-$70,000 in additional

helicopter time. I had a call from

a wildlife officer, an e-mail really, and he said to me: Minister, for the

first time we finally have a government that is prepared to support us as we

take on some of those issues that we have been fighting for many, many years.

I can tell you, there were years in the past when I remember friends of

mine - like Stu (inaudible) and Douglas Blake from Northwest River and many of

these wildlife officers, Billy Duffett and all those guys that are in Goose

Bay today - could not get the money to get a helicopter to go down and take a

look. Do you know what?

Every time we went down we found poachers.

This year, what we saw - and Frank Philips is the fellow who was there

and gave the interview the other evening, when you look at taking choice parts

of an animal and leaving the rest, it is really the lowest.

Those people have to be the lowest type of scum bags that God put

breath in, because nobody - I can understand someone killing a caribou if you

needed to eat but to do the like of that, it just flies in the face of

conservation.

I will say, I will give

Minister Jackman full credit, he did a tremendous job on researching this,

staying on top of this, and we are going to do something about it.

I thank you for raising

that, because it is a good point. We

are going to keep at it. It is a

huge challenge. We have a large

border down there. It is a lot of

country and only a few animals, yet it is worth protecting for our children

and our grandchildren.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Minister.

MR. HICKEY:

Welcome Eddie.

MR. JOYCE:

I just came from lunch, actually, with the Minister of Tourism.

He took everybody out to lunch.

MR. HICKEY:

Good stuff. That was nice of him.

CHAIR:

All right. Are there any other

questions, first of all?

MR. JOYCE:

I would not mind asking a few as the critic?

CHAIR:

For Labrador?

MR. JOYCE:

Oh, no.

CHAIR:

Okay. We are doing Labrador

Affairs.

Thank you for the debate.

We need a motion to have these headings carried.

Headings 1.1.01. to

2.1.02.

AN HON. MEMBER:

So moved.

CHAIR:

Carried.

On motion, subheads

1.1.01. through 2.1.02. carried.

CHAIR:

Thank you very much.

MR. HICKEY:

Can we take a five minute recess there, Mr. Chair?

CHAIR:

We can, but first of all, I just want to say thank you for that debate and the

questions. We have, I think, two

of the most passionate Labradorians in Labrador.

That is the reason it took so long, which was good, and I think there

was some constructive things done here tonight.

Thank you both for your work, and of course, Mr. Langdon as well.

All right, we will take a

five minute break and be back for Transportation and Works.

Recess

CHAIR: Order,

please!

We are going to deal with

Transportation and Works at this time. I

think it is heading 1.1.01. I

think we probably have to start by introducing everyone again for this one, I

am assuming.

WITNESS: No.

CHAIR:

No, we do not? Okay.

Good. Perfect.

Everybody knows everyone.

Mr. Joyce is here and he

is begging for forgiveness but we are good with that.

First of all, I am going

to give the minister an opportunity with some opening remarks and we will move

forward from there.

MR. HICKEY:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

As the Minister

responsible for Transportation and Works I am pleased to appear before you to

discuss the Estimates for the Department of Transportation and Works.

Certainly, I welcome all questions regarding the matters of our

department.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

We are going to start with

Mr. Joyce because I understand he has to leave.

MR. JOYCE:

Yes, I have to leave. I just have

a few things as critic.

First of all, minister,

thank you and your staff for appearing here today.

Just a few of the questions I have concerning, I guess, the overall not

in the Budget (inaudible). I am

sure my colleagues have that.

Would it be possible, and

I am just asking - I can go back to 2005 and even before that - to get a

breakdown of how much money was spent per district in, say, 2000 in the roads

program itself?

MR. HICKEY:

We have it back - in anticipation of your question, I do not have it here with

me but we do have it back to 1949.

WITNESS:

That is the total budget.

MR. JOYCE:

No, no, district by district. I am

just concerned about the Bay of Islands more than anything.

You can forward it to me later, in the next couple of days or

something.

MR. HICKEY:

Go ahead there, Cluney

MR. MERCER:

We have that for eight years going back to 2000.

MR. JOYCE:

Can you forward it to me tomorrow or some day when you have time, just very

briefly to save time on that here?

The other thing is, back

in 2003 -

CHAIR:

Excuse me, Mr. Joyce, just before you go on, do we need to have everyone

announce their name before they speak?

AN HON. MEMBER:

(Inaudible).

CHAIR:

Yes, okay. So, if we could do

that. I saw you were trying

to get some clarity there.

Sorry, Mr. Joyce, go

ahead.

MR. JOYCE:

Back in, just say 2003, and I know there is an increase in funds in some

years, is there anybody in the department who can give us a breakdown on the

cost per kilometre for pavement back in 2002 as compared to now?

MR. MERCER:

It would be possible to do that. It

would take some analysis. One

thing you have to remember is that there are various classifications of the

road system out there, from the very local road to the trunk road, to the

collector road, to the Trans-Canada Highway, and the cost to do each are not

the same because they have different thicknesses of asphalt, they are

different widths and that sort of thing. So

the cost per kilometre would depend on the road classification that you are

doing at the time.

MR. JOYCE:

Could I get that later? I am sure

there is someone in the department - on what it costs, the breakdown per

kilometre and the tenders that were back in -

MR. MERCER:

Well, you would have to go back and analyze the tenders.

It is not something that we do every single year.

MR. JOYCE:

Okay.

MR. DINN:

Can I make a comment on that? I

guess when you are considering that information, distance also is a factor

into the cost of asphalt and paving; how far you are from a source of asphalt.

What I have heard from city officials - and I was at St. John = s

for a while - last year asphalt went up by 40 per cent to have paving done.

It went up 40 per cent from the year before.

So, that is a rough idea of what it is in the St. John = s

area. I have heard statements that

the city had a little over half of what they had done the year before, done

last year.

MR. MERCER:

Yes, Mr. Dinn, that is correct. One

of the biggest factors in determining the cost per kilometre is, in fact, the

size of the project, and not only the size of the project but whether that

project is linear or not. If you

are doing twenty kilometres of linear roadway from point A to point B, with an

asphalt plant set up at the middle, you will get the best price possible.

If you are doing the same volume of work spread over ten different

locations with a kilometre here and a kilometre there, with thirty kilometres

in between them, that work is going to cost a lot more because you have to

mobilize crushers, asphalt plants, equipment, people, and a lot of the costs

goes directly into that. Even if

we were to provide a breakdown on a project by project basis and a road

classification by road classification basis, you would also have to look at:

Were these projects long and linear or were they spread out over a large

geographic area? So, I would

suggest you exercise some caution in looking at anything like that.

MR. JOYCE:

So, it cannot be done or it can be done?

MR. MERCER:

The cost per kilometre by classification of road can be done based on the

history that we have and the bid prices that we have gotten, I have a range of

projects on a given classification of road that is going to vary in cost.

What you can do, understanding that some of these projects were long

and linear, thereby being cheaper than those that were multi-locations, spread

over a larger geographic area, if you were to take the average cost, it might

give you some inclination as to what the cost was in a given year.

MR. JOYCE:

So, it can be done. Thanks for

that. So you will forward me that

information with the Bay of Islands estimates with what was done since 2000 -

MR. MERCER:

What has been done by district since 2000 is easy to do, easy to get for you

because that is already done.

MR. HICKEY:

You are only asking for the Bay of Islands?

MR. MERCER:

Just the Bay of Islands? Yes, it

is already done.

MR. JOYCE:

Okay.

MR. MERCER: In

terms of the other piece that you are looking for, the cost per kilometre.

We would have to go back and look at past year contracts to do that

because that is not something we do on a regular basis.

MR. JOYCE:

Okay.

MR. LANGDON:

Mr. Chairman, could I just ask a question on that, please?

CHAIR:

Okay.

MR. LANGDON:

I know on the Bay d =

Espoir Highway

, that I am familiar with, say in 2002, I am

just using that as an example, we had five kilometres of paving on the highway

and in 2005 we had five kilometres. I

do not need to know right to the cent or to the dollar or whatever, but there

has to be a major difference in the cost from 2002 to 2005 because all you

have to see is the amount of work that you could get done in 2005 versus what

it was in 2003.

Again, I am not as close

to it, Keith, as you guys are, you work with it everyday, but the cost per

kilometre of road to refurbish or blacktop again or whatever the case might

be, in 2006 was way more than it was in 2005.

I recognize that, even though I do not know the dollar figure exactly,

but I can look at the distance that has been paved and refurbished on the road

and see the difference in the length.

MR. MERCER:

Last year, looking at all the classifications of the road combined together

and all the projects, on the cost of a project on a per kilometre basis

overall, it probably increased in the range of 20 per cent to 25 per cent.

If you look at the various

items that increased, the cost of asphalt increased by about 72 per cent to 75

per cent. Some of the crushed

gravel has increased by about 35 per cent because they are fuel related and

the cost of fuel had gone up substantially in the last two or three years.

So it consumes a greater cost in producing the material and placing the

material on the road. Certain

items have gone up substantially but, overall, we saw our prices go up last

year 20 per cent to 25 per cent.

MR. JOYCE:

Thank you for that, Cluney.

How much carry-over was

there from last year to this year in Transportation and Works, including the

federal portion, the federal cost-shared?

Because I am under the understanding that there was one contract

between Corner Brook and Stephenville in which there was about $6 million or

$7 million left over. How much was

left over last year from the tenders that were called and the work then, the

amount, the value that was carried over this year?

MR. MERCER:

If I can find the right spot in the Estimates, I can refer you to it.

It is on page 83 and 84. The

Provincial Roads Program has two components; a current account component,

which is basically maintenance and repair, that is done under contract.

A smaller portion is capital, and that is basically when you are

putting new infrastructure in place.

The total Budget last year

that was initially approved was $60 million under the Provincial Roads

Program. We actually spent a

little over $66 million. So, we

actually did everything that was planned to do and we did more.

MR. HICKEY:

What a minister.

MR. MERCER:

Because we found savings in the department, in other locations, and we

transferred it in there. So we

actually did not have any carry-over work on the provincial program.

MR. JOYCE:

There was no work between Corner Brook and Stephenville last year, not carried

over?

MR. MERCER:

I will get to the second part. So

that is the Provincial Roads Program. The

second part of that is the cost-shared program between the federal government

and the provincial government under the Strategic Infrastructure Fund.

That is at the bottom of page 84. This

program is a $53.6 million program over two years.

Last year was the first year of that.

Some of these projects are very large.

Mr. Joyce, the one you are

referring to on the West Coast was an $8.8 million project.

Some of these projects, because we cash flowed them over two years, we

allocated so much money to be spent last year and so much money to be spent

this year. In fact, the project

that you are referring to was just that. It

was an $8.8 million program. I

think there was $3 million of cash flow for last year and the remaining cash

flow was budgeted for this year. The

project was called late in August.

MR. JOYCE:

How much was spent last year?

MR. MERCER:

There was $6.1 million to be spent this year, it was an $8.8 million contract,

so $2.7 million got spent last year.

Out of the total of $30

million under that program, we actually spent - in accordance to the

Estimates, and these Estimates were provided in February.

When the final numbers came in - I think they are a little higher than

this - they were up around $25 million in total, actually.

So, there was a cash flow of $5 million there.

That $5 million, along with the balance of the program, which was about

$23.5 million to get completed this year.

MR. JOYCE:

In Corner Brook there was a road done up on Massey Drive - I do not know if it

is in this year = s

Budget or last year = s

because I did not know there was any carry over.

How much did that road cost to do, the Massey Drive road?

Are you familiar with that road? I

do not know if it is a carry-over from last year to this year, the extension

from Massey Drive out to the -

MR. MERCER:

I think what you are referring to is the Massey Drive emergency access road.

MR. JOYCE:

No, the extension. The emergency

exit was done. It was the

extension.

MR. MERCER:

Well, I think it was all a part of the one road.

It was started in 2004, I believe.

There was a segment of it done in 2004, 2004-2005, and then another

segment was done last year. I

believe in total there was about $500,000 spent altogether.

MR. JOYCE:

Half a million?

MR. MERCER:

As far as I know.

MR. JOYCE:

Who owns that road right now?

MR. MERCER:

The road was built by the department at the request of the town and Massey

Drive as an emergency access road. Jurisdiction

over the road right now rests with Transportation and Works.

MR. JOYCE:

Do you keep the road? I will ask

you why, because there are a few businesses who want to set up in the area and

they cannot get permission to establish or building permits until someone has

ownership of the road. The town is

concerned about - my understanding is that you guys want to keep ownership and

allow the town to have control of businesses as they set up (inaudible).

MR. MERCER: We

do not desire to have ownership. There

is a -

MR. JOYCE:

There is a dispute with the City of Corner Brook and Massey Drive.

MR. MERCER: There

are issues between the town and Massey Drive and the City of Corner Brook

regarding the intended use of the road and development.

Part of the road skirts the watershed for the City of Corner Brook.

Before the road was built and in the planning stage, the City of Corner

Brook gave their approval on the basis that this would be an emergency access

road and used for that purpose only; not the intention of any development,

certainly along the road and close to the watershed.

When this issue came up

about the town and Massey Drive entertaining applications for development

along the road, then the City of Corner Brook took objection to that.

Basically, what the department said is that until the town and the city

can settle their dispute, we will retain jurisdiction of the road, but we are

not snow clearing it and we are not maintaining it in the summer.

MR. JOYCE:

Yes. I was just asked to ask: Are

all of the announcements made for capital works for road improvements for the

Province? I was concerned.

I was asked to ask about the White Bay area.

There is a

section there, five kilometres in Hampden, Jackson = s

Arm and that area. Has all the

money been allocated this year for the capital works?

MR. HICKEY:

No, we do not have all of them. We

still have Liberal districts to announce.

We still have PC districts to announce, but we are hoping to move

forward with these over the course of the next two to three weeks.

MR. JOYCE:

Okay. This is one issue that I

have been raising for a while, and it is the depots are going to remain

closed. Can you tell me how much

it would cost to keep the depots open? Is

it $1.1 million or $1.2 million?

MR. MERCER:

When we did the analysis, before government made the decision to close the

thirteen depots, there was about $2.6 million associated with that initiative.

A part of that was associated with managers who were located at those

thirteen depots. That part of the

initiative was implemented in 2004, and then the staff associated with those

thirteen units were implemented in 2005.

I think there was about

$1.6 million or $1.8 million or so of that $2.6 million associated with the

staff. The remainder was

associated with clerks and supervisors who were (inaudible) the units, but

there was $2.6 million in total.

MR. JOYCE:

My last question, and I thank everybody for indulging me.

I will give you an example, out in Government Services in the Sir

Richard Squires Building in Corner Brook, there are several ministers who have

offices in the building and the letters they wrote back said that they have

permission. Can you show me in the

Budget where the cost is covered in the Budget for that type of - or is it in

the Budget?

For example, Tom Marshall

has an office and that has been approved by Transportation and Works.

That is the letter that we received on it.

Is there anywhere in the Budget where that is covered off or is it just

under Transportation and Works, under the general stuff of the Sir Richard

Squires Building?

MR. MOORES:

Any costs of government buildings are just covered in the general allocations

in the buildings. It is not broken

down on a building by building basis.

MR. JOYCE:

So, it is not broken down. It is

just move in. If there is an

office open and heat and light and whatever, it is just covered under the

general of the building itself, like the Premier = s

office.

MR. MOORES:

I mean, the minister = s

office and my office, you cannot find them in the Budget.

They are all within the same heading.

MR. JOYCE:

Okay.

My last question - and

this is something, I guess, is considered - is the winter snow clearing.

Out our way, especially - and I do not know who made the statement from

the minister = s

office, I think it was one of the PR people or somebody.

They were looking at the high volume areas of traffic.

I am receiving many calls about snow clearing from 10:00 a.m. to 6:00

in the morning. I have received

calls from town councillors in Stephenville who had to catch an airplane, who

had to drive from Stephenville at 3:00 or 4:00 o = clock

in the morning out to Deer Lake. I

know it was not covered off but I do not know if the department would consider

it, because it is a life and safety issue.

It is a big issue. It is an

issue that has been brought to my attention.

From my understanding, it is not in the Budget to have it covered next

year and I do not know if it is too late in the year to look at it or not for

next year, but I can assure you, it is a life and safety issue that I had to

bring up. I ask that the

department and the minister reconsider and see if there is anyway to get it

done.

MR. HICKEY:

We will be reconsidering it.

MR. JOYCE:

Perfect.

MR. HICKEY:

We will be reconsidering this. I

can say to you, Eddie, that we are doing some traffic flow studies on high

volume areas. Certainly, it is my

wish, as the minister, to review this. We

have been collecting some data. We

will have to analyze that data and see where we can go with it from there.

MR. JOYCE:

Well, that is my last question. I

thank everybody for indulging me. Before

I go, minister, I want to recognize the staff out on the Western region and

the hard work that they do for all the towns and helping out the residents

around. I just want to thank the

staff out on the Western region because they are quite a dedicated group who

do what they can to help people out on the Western region.

MR. HICKEY:

Thank you for that, Eddie. I will

say to you, we have some 2,300 employees with the Department of Transportation

and Works. I must say, as a

minister for that department I have been, I think blessed in many ways to have

the experience, which I have at the executive level here with me this evening,

but when I go out into the regions, and I have visited many of the depots - I

could not believe when I went out to some of the depots with some of my

colleagues, and the Member for Exploits will remember this, I was the first

minister to go into many of those depots.

Some guys have been there for thirty-two years and I was the first

minister to go out and talk with them, to congratulate them and to thank them

for the service. When I look at

some of our positions - our snow clearing operators, these people spend a

tremendous amount of time on the road. They

are out there in hazardous conditions and they do an exceptional job for the

people of the Province and for the travelling public.

I thank you for those compliments, Sir.

MR. JOYCE:

Thank you.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Mr. Joyce.

Moving on, Mr. Andersen.

MR. ANDERSEN:

I asked most of my questions but there is one that I want to ask.

It is a touchy subject for me, but it goes back to probably the year

2000 or 2001. It is regarding the

Labrador Transportation Initiative Fund. There

were talks that a government that I was part of had taken $92 million or so

out of the Labrador Transportation Initiative Fund and put it into general

revenues. I was adamant against it

and I was told that it would never happen.

So, I would like to have it confirmed to me, if the money was taken

from the Labrador Transportation Fund of $92 million and put into general

revenues. If this occurred, when

did it take place? If it did not

take place, I would like to have it confirmed that there was no transfer of $2

million from the Labrador Transportation Fund into general revenues.

MR. HICKEY:

That fund, Wally, is not shared out of the Department of Transportation and

Works, it is shared out of Treasury Board.

MR. ANDERSEN:

Does the fund fall under the Department of Transportation and Works?

MR. HICKEY:

No, it falls under Treasury Board.

MR. LANGDON:

Treasury Board approves it for Transportation and Works or whatever?

CHAIR:

If you could just -

MR. LANGDON:

Oliver Langdon.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

MR. LANGDON:

How does it work? Treasury Board,

I understand how that works. I had

been there for a number of years. They

approve the funds and then it is allocated to the Department of Transportation

and Works, or to Municipal Affairs or whatever, to be spent?

MR. HICKEY:

It is my understanding, it comes out of Treasury Board.

MR. HEALEY:

We apply for funding under that fund through Treasury Board.

MR. LANGDON:

Yes, so that is easy enough to get back.

CHAIR:

Mr. Forsey?

MR. FORSEY:

Not at this time, thank you very much.

CHAIR:

Ms Marshall? Mr. Dinn?

Mr. Langdon.

MR. LANGDON:

Just a couple of questions. The

agreement that government signed with its federal counterpart not too long ago

for $151 million, or whatever that fund (inaudible).

The federal minister was basically saying you could find the money from

the Labrador highway through that agreement that was about to be signed, or

signed or whatever. It did not

happen.

MR. HICKEY:

I will answer that.

MR. LANGDON:

Yes, okay. Let me just carry on.

If that is the case, if

that particular money is to be spent or whatever the case might be, is there

any thought given to spending some of that money on major trunk roads?

I am thinking about, for example, the Bay d = Espoir

Highway. As you would know, there

is a lot of economic activity that is taking place on the highway and the

road, even though it has been paved, say three or four, five years ago, it is

really starting to see its wear. Cluney

would know what I am talking about. Almost

as fast as it is paved, it is being torn up.

All of those trucks are just going over it day in and day out.

As a result of that, we need - like I said in the House, I appreciate

$1 million for the area. If I get

$1, I am appreciative of it. It is

not for me, it is for the people in the region.

I am wondering, probably

not for this year but probably next year, or the following year, whatever, if

there can be some increased funds to do a bit more on the highway because it

is going to be a major trunk road that needs some major upgrading?

MR. HICKEY:

Thank you for the question. I

guess I will take it in two parts. First

of all, it was $175 million which Minister Hearn publicly announced for

infrastructure funding. He also

indicated that funding would be eligible for, for instance, like the

Trans-Labrador Highway.

As far as the federal

government is concerned - obviously, the officials in our department are in

discussion with the federal Transport Canada officials.

As far as the details of this agreement, I will say that - certainly,

the indication left with me from the discussion with Minister Hearn was that

this was infrastructure funds for the Province and it would be our choice as

to how we would like to spend that.

To address the second part

of your question, and I do appreciate your recognition that we did put $1

million down there this particular year. Let

me say this, the mandate of this minister, this department, this Premier and

this government is to improve the road infrastructure of this Province.

Let me also say that we are spending unprecedented amounts.

This year we will be close on $66 million for the road improvements in

the Province. Last year we put in

another $60 million and we will be continuing to make further investment into

the rural infrastructure of this Province.

Projects are certainly

reviewed by the department. They

are looked at on a priority basis. I

think it is fair to say that we have some 9,500 kilometres of road in the

Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. That

means if you were to drive it you could go from St. John = s

to Vancouver and you would have enough left to probably go down to California

on the west coast. We have some

800 bridges that we have to maintain. So,

as you can well appreciate, a tremendous amount of road and infrastructure.

We have not seen the

investment in road and infrastructure over a good many years and our plan

forward is to maintain a level between $60 million and $70 million.

My officials have told me that it will take us ten years to bring the

roads on the Island portion of the Province up to an acceptable standard.

We have made great inroads, I believe over the last number of years,

and it is our plan to, again, take an aggressive approach to address the

issues, Oliver, that you are raising here this evening.

I will tell you that we will continue the investment in that

section of

highway. We fully realize the

economic benefits and some of the economic opportunities down in that region

of the Province. I think as we

move forward you will see continued investment over the course of the next

number of years.

MR. LANGDON:

There is about 220 kilometres from the Trans-Canada Highway down directly to

Harbour Breton. I am not counting

the trunk roads that go to Hermitage and down Fortune Bay North.

I am not talking about these at all, just the major highway.

I am not confrontational,

that is not my nature. I just

wanted to outline to you the situation. There

is no way - whether Oliver Langdon is the MHA or Minister Hickey, or whatever

the case might be - that $1 million a year on the major trunk road going into

Bay d = Espoir

will ever cut it.

There are, right now as we

speak, and I am down there every weekend - by the way, you have tremendous

staff down there. Murray Drake and

the guys, they fill as many potholes in a week - I have never seen anything

like it, by the way, they just absolutely do work their butts off.

The road itself, the roadbed and so on - there is place right now, and

I have not talked to Cluney or Wayne out in Central because I do not want to

say where the asphalt is going to go on the road because I do not know the - I

would not even dare do that, I have never done that in my life.

But, going down the causeway hill going to Harbour Breton - and that is

a huge hill, as you would know Cluney. It

is one of the most dangerous hills probably in all of the Province and the

pavement on that is gone, g-o-n-e.

I do not know if there any

- even though there are certain areas on the Bay d = Espoir

Highway too, that have potholes in it as big as this table and the boys are

filling it in. If there is anyway

that you can look at doing something with causeway hill for safety and for all

the trucks that go down there, I would appreciate it.

Like I said, I do not want it done for me personally, but just for the

safety of the trucks that go down there because those tractor-trailer trucks

are on the go night and day. It is

a big hill and the pavement is gone. The

boys patch it as much as they can but it needs to be looked at again.

You can ask Wayne, or whoever is out there, to take a second look.

You might have to take a bit of your money that you ordinarily would

have put on the Bay d = Espoir

Highway to address it. That is

where I am coming from.

I do not have to explain

it to the guys - the thing about it, if it was just two kilometres between

Seal Cove and Hermitage, I could say: all right, I get $200 a year over the

next number of years to do it, but you are talking of a major artery going

down there. It is something like

the Great Northern Peninsula or the Bonavista Highway, or whatever.

The road is, as I said, I think you would have to drive it yourself to

really see what I am saying about it. It

is taking a tremendous pounding. Four

kilometres a year just will not do it. I

am hoping, as I said, minister, next year - I know this year the money is

there, but even if I am not around, if I am looking up at the sod rather than

looking down on it -

MR. HICKEY:

We hope that is not the case, Oliver.

MR. LANGDON:

I hope you do not.

In all due respect, just

have a look at it because it needs to be done.

It is a major artery and all the economic activity that is down there -

it is not from one community to the other, it is from the Trans-Canada, just

the main leg down. Ambulances are

coming up over the road all day and so on.

The other thing that I

would probably ask, minister, I know you are talking about the high traffic

areas for winter clearing and so on, but the Bay d = Espoir

Highway is our main artery for getting people up from that area, from Bay d = Espoir

to Harbour Breton to Grand Falls, for medical facilities and so on.

I talk about people with vehicles and trucks that are big and so on.

I bought a Ford F-150, double cab.

I am taxiing more than Gulliver = s

Cabs are taking people back and forth to the district.

I did it because there are a number of times that I came up over the

highway when the guys were not working on the road and you have a foot of snow

on the highway. I put her in

four-wheel drive and I do about forty or fifty and come up through.

I am being honest with you, I have left Seal Cove, which is the

farthest point and come to the Trans-Canada, 226, 227 kilometres, and I have

not seen a person. It is a scary

situation. For the next year, when

you consider other winter clearing and so on - even though there might not be

large volumes of traffic, but it is important because, as I said, it is our

lifeline to the outside world.

MR. HICKEY:

Well, I can only say this, Oliver, you are looking at someone who can well

appreciate bad roads because I can tell you, nobody in the Province has had to

endure the roads in such poor shape as the people in Labrador.

MR. LANGDON:

I understand that.

MR. HICKEY:

I fully appreciate what you are saying, but as I went around the districts and

travelled in Western Newfoundland last year - and I am hoping to get down your

way this summer because I have not been down and I would like to go down and

look and see for myself, but as I went around the districts and I looked at

some of the road work and the condition of roads, I was just appalled.

To say the least, I was appalled, because even though I had heard the

stories, you have to be out there. I

remember going through with the Member for Exploits, through his district, but

you have to actually go and see in order to appreciate some of the bad roads.

It just shows we are

learning from this whole experience, at least I am, and I think, as a

government, we are learning that you have to keep your maintenance up.

I think as we look in the past we have not probably spent the money.

We have not put the priorities in the right location.

We have allowed our infrastructure to go downhill and, of course, when

that happens all hell will break lose eventually.

I think that is what we are seeing probably down in your district and

in other districts as we go through it.

The only thing I will say

to you is that we are committed to improving the roads and (inaudible) systems

in this Province.

MR. LANGDON:

I understand that. Like I said, I

just want to make one point before I pass it to somebody else.

When Roger Simmons and the

boys were in Opposition when Peckford was Premier - Frank Moores- I do not

know if we got an inch of pavement. Over

the eighteen years that I have been there, we have not done near as much as we

would have liked to have done.

What I see happening down

there now, even the roads that were done say eighteen years ago or fifteen

years ago or ten years ago, I am not sure if the pavement was that thick, or

that thick, or whatever, but the huge trucks and the heavy loads are killing

it. Even what was done within the

last ten years is gone. That is

the problem. As you go down you

can see it. There is about 120

kilometres as good as anywhere, but it is around eighty kilometres that....

I don = t

have to tell Cluney, he is more familiar with it than I am, but it is

something to look at for next year.

MR. HICKEY:

Absolutely.

Thank you all for that.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Mr. Langdon.

Mr. Sweeney.

MR. SWEENEY:

Thank you very much.

I have a few questions I

would like to address to the minister and his staff.

Lighting at intersections,

who is responsible for that? I am

not talking about traffic lights; I am talking about street lighting for

safety purposes.

MR. HICKEY:

Correct me if I am wrong, but -

MR. SWEENEY:

Outside of a municipality, on a major road.

MR. HICKEY:

As I understand it, we do not normally get into street lighting.

That is not a mandate of the Department of Transportation and Works.

Am I correct, Cluney?

MR. MERCER:

Yes, that is correct. There are

three locations whereby the department provides lighting, and those are where

there is a concrete median in the middle of a divided highway.

The three locations would be Grand Falls-Windsor, Pitts Memorial Drive,

and the lower

section of the Outer Ring Road.

Any lights that you see on interchange ramps, at intersections

throughout the Province, even if they are in the middle of nowhere, they have

been either done by development associations, town councils -

MR. HICKEY:

Local service districts.

MR. MERCER:

Local service districts, clubs - of that nature.

What we do is, we provide the technical expertise to do the design work

in terms of the number of lights and the placement of lights.

We have assisted a number of associations in doing just that, and they

would make the arrangements with Newfoundland Power to get the poles

installed, and they cover the monthly fee, I presume.

That is something that we have never gotten into.

MR. HICKEY:

And we are not planning on getting into.

MR. SWEENEY:

Everyone else is a bit parochial here with their questions this evening, so I

will get mine over with early before I get into the Budget part of it.

Harvey Street in Harbour

Grace, are there any plans to upgrade that before turning it over to the town

council? Right now it is hardly

passable, Cluney, I guess, as you are well aware.

MR. HICKEY:

Let me make a couple of comments on that, if I could.

We are now discussing with

a number of councils the opportunities to look at upgrading roads through

municipalities, that are going through municipalities, with the opportunity,

hopefully, to see the municipalities take over those roads.

We are in talks with a number of different municipalities around the

Province. It is something that we

are not forcing on any municipality, but municipalities that wish to become

involved and to sit down and have those discussions, we will do so.

Having said that, we believe there are some opportunities, and I will

pursue each and every one of those opportunities, because at the end of the

day we certainly want to concentrate on the main roads, the Trans-Canada

Highway, arterials, and some of these main roads.

So, if the Town of Harbour Grace wants to sit down and have discussions

with me in that regard, I would be more than happy to do so.

MR. SWEENEY:

Well, I will certainly pass that information on to the mayor.

Breakwaters in various

communities - for instance, in Freshwater in the Carbonear area there is a

breakwater that protects one of your roads that you maintain, and there is

another one in Bristol = s

Hope; it is a sea-made breakwater - do you people still repair those things?

MR. HICKEY:

Cluney?

MR. MERCER:

There are some seawalls, most of which are made of timber, that we do repairs

to, or replace in some cases. There

are some breakwaters, however - traditional breakwaters, I will call them, out

into the water - that, even though they provide protection to road

infrastructure, they also provide protection for boating and other harbour

facilities. Those are generally

not in our jurisdiction. In some

cases, they have been put there through Small Craft Harbours or other

federal-provincial initiatives, and those we have not gotten involved in.

I am not totally familiar

with the two that you are talking about, but there are some wooden timber

seawalls out in that area that we do maintain, I know we have repaired, and we

continue to do so.

MR. SWEENEY:

I had those questions from the two communities involved, so that will give me

the proper answer for them.

I will go on now to the

Budget itself. When will the

tenders be called for the two new ferries?

MR. HICKEY:

As you know, George, our government is committed to building two brand new

ferries. It is a commitment that

was in our Blue Book. It is part

of our transportation strategy forward, certainly, to replace the ferry fleet.

Progress is moving very well on both those ferries.

We will be looking at two sixteen car ferries.

Just yesterday morning, as

a matter of fact - if you take a look on the Web site, I think the pictures

are there today, if I am not mistaken - myself and my colleague, Minister

Whalen, were down to the National Research Council, along with our advisory

committee from the Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Municipalities, who

also came down and viewed the testing of the two hulls that will be used in

the design of the new vessels. They

are presently doing ice tests, and it is my expectation that we should be in a

position, certainly by July or August, to have tenders out for those.

As I understand it, we

have every reason to believe that those ferries will be built in the Province

of Newfoundland and Labrador, by Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, and this is

the initial start of replacing the ferries, many of which are forty to

forty-five years old.

I will tell you that we

will not be going out and buying old ferries to put in to augment our fleet.

It is our plan to move forward with new vessels, of which will have

state-of-the-art technology. As a

matter of fact, just for the benefit of those in the room, this is the first

time in our Province = s

history that we have used the (inaudible) leading edge technology that is in

this Province in the design and the building of these vessels.

I must say, I am very,

very pleased with the progress on that particular file.

MR. SWEENEY:

What are the anticipated ports for these ferries?

Where are they intended to be used?

MR. HICKEY:

There has not been a decision as to where these ferries will be stationed.

Once they are built, we will assess our fleet.

We will assess the condition of the ferries at different locations, and

then we will make those decisions. That

is the plan forward.

MR. SWEENEY:

What is the anticipated date of the next two or three or four, if we are going

to replace the whole fleet?

MR. HICKEY:

As we move forward, there is no question, we have a lot of work to do.

MR. SWEENEY:

So, you don = t

have a long-term plan?

MR. HICKEY:

Oh, we have a long-term plan. Once

these two roll out, we will do two more. Then

we may even have as high as four on the go, because we have to build two brand

new ones to go across the Straits between Newfoundland and Labrador.

So we are actioning it up, but we want to ensure, as we move forward,

that we have the capacity, the shipyards here.

We do not want to send them outside the Province for construction.

So, once we get these two completed and in the water and champagne

broken over the bow - we will invite you down to that -

MR. SWEENEY:

I certainly plan on being around.

MR. HICKEY:

Absolutely. Even if you are not,

we will still invite you.

Let me say this: Our plan

forward, our commitment here, is the replacement of the ferry fleet.

I have to say, we have great challenges.

I wonder some days how we even keep it all together, when we look back

at the age of some of these vessels. We

are moving forward, and I am very proud of the progress.

When these two are finished, we will start two more and we will keep

doing it until we have our fleet replaced.

MR. LANGDON:

I will just ask the minister about a point.

Probably he can = t

tell me, or there is probably no plan for it, but I will just ask it anyhow.

One of the recommendations from the Burin Peninsula and the Connaigre

side, the Coast of Bays and the Burin Peninsula development and the REDBs,

they have, between them, recognized how important it would be if we had a

roll-on, roll-off, ferry service between the Burin Peninsula and Pool = s

Cove on the Connaigre side so that when tourists come down the Bay d = Espoir

Highway they do not have to loop back again; they can go across.

Is there any talk about anything like that?

MR. HICKEY:

Thank you for that question, a good question.

Now you are going to get a good answer.

The way it is right now,

as a matter of fact, we have our staff that have gone out - as you may or may

not know, Oliver, we are now doing transportation consultations in all of the

regions. As a matter of fact, our

staff have been out for the last two to three weeks.

We have received a tremendous amount of information as we do the

consultations with the different communities.

Certainly, as we did with

the Northern Strategic Plan, this government is interested in listening to the

views of the people, to the views of the communities, to the views of the

stakeholders, so we are going to gather all of that information before we make

any final decisions.

Let me say this: We

understand that there are needs out there, and people have expectations.

Certainly, as we unfold the plan forward we will be taking those into

consideration.

MR. LANGDON:

It would be a big economic boost for aquaculture on the Connaigre Peninsula.

MR. HICKEY:

Yes.

MR. SWEENEY:

Let = s

see what else I can find for the minister to pound his chest about here now.

What is the long-term plan

for the upkeep and modernization of the government buildings?

Of all of them, actually. I

notice that some of them around the Province are undergoing some challenges

with regard to maintenance. I was

in Seal Cove just last week, and the front step was gone.

One side was roped off, and you could not use it.

MR. HICKEY:

I will try to address that.

Again, I say to the member

that I do not think the step of that particular building deteriorated in the

last three-and-a-half years.

MR. SWEENEY: My

front step did, at my house.

MR. HICKEY:

I can only say, as I go around and look at the buildings - and I have been

through a good many. When I went

down to the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary and saw the absolutely, totally -

myself and Minister Marshall toured it, and it was absolutely painful to walk

through a building that had been left in such a dilapidated condition with no

maintenance. We have everything

from birds in the ceiling, we have mold on the floor, mold on the walls.

Really, it is terrible. Let

me say this: Again, we are spending unprecedented amounts of money to try to

improve our infrastructure.

I will ask Weldon to just

give us a breakdown of how we have increased the budgets for maintenance over

the last two years.

MR. MOORES:

In years past, our budget in our alterations block for repair and alterations

to government buildings, including environmental remediation and demolition,

used to be $4.5 million. If you

look in the Estimates book here tonight, that figure is $18.7 million, so

there has been a significant increase on buildings.

The same issue that is on roads, it is going to take us a few years to

get back on track.

The steps that you

referred to, that has been brought to our attention.

It is on our tentative list. Since

they are buildings that educational programs are in, we have sent our list to

Education and said: Here is what we are planning to do.

It does not meet everything that was on their requirements list.

Do you want to do any final adjustments?

Tentatively, it is there.

The final decision on that list is to be made in the next couple of

weeks.

MR. HICKEY:

Just to add to that, I want to say, as the ADM just mentioned, we are spending

four times the amount of monies on infrastructure than what was being spent

when this government took office, so that is a significant increase.

We have significant challenges. We

have some 900 buildings, is it, Weldon?

MR. MOORES:

Yes, Minister, between 850 and 900 buildings.

MR. HICKEY:

Nine hundred buildings in the Province to look after; so, as you can imagine,

this is a tremendous task to try to get these buildings and to keep these

buildings in shape.

Certainly, as we did this

year, as we did last year, we will continue to do next year and the year after

and the year after, to continue to invest in the building infrastructure of

our Province.

MR. MOORES:

Just to clarify that 850, that is provincial buildings that the department

looks after. It does not include

hospitals and schools, which the boards look after.

MR. HICKEY:

That is right.

MR. SWEENEY:

That would also include the CONA buildings?

MR. MOORES:

Yes, it does include the College of the North Atlantic buildings.

MR. SWEENEY:

The reason I mentioned that, I was there last week to a meeting and it just

struck me: here is a beautiful building that is well used, and the front step

with a barrier across it. It just

came to mind, but there are other buildings in the Province as well.

I said: God love the bit of oil and mineral money, that we are able to

make these repairs and increase the budgets.

MR. HICKEY:

I think, just on that point, we can talk about the oil and we can talk about

the mineral wealth, but it is also talking about priorities.

You can have all the money, but if you do not put your money where your

priorities are, or where you priorities need to be - and I think that is why

we are having success with this government in this Province, because we are

strategically placing our monies where they should have been in the past, and

we are going to continue to put them into the future; because, simply put -

AN HON. MEMBER:

(Inaudible) will be here all night. Enough

of that bullshit.

MR. HICKEY:

Well, that is fine. You don = t

have to listen to it, if you don = t

like. I am allowed to have my

piece. I have listened to you,

Oliver. I will have my say and you

can have your say.

Let me say this: It is a

matter of priorities, and I can tell you that buildings and roads and that

type of infrastructure is a priority of this government and this Premier.

MR. SWEENEY:

Like you say, when you have the money it is easy to expand your priorities.

What is the status on the

Salmonier Correctional Institution right now on Salmonier Line?

MR. MOORES:

The facility is slated for demolition. The

land will be turned over to Environment and Conservation, who will develop it

- my understanding is - as cabin lot developments.

MR. SWEENEY:

What was that last part again, Weldon? I

am sorry.

MR. MOORES:

I think it is their plan to further develop it as cabin lot developments.

MR. SWEENEY:

Okay.

Will that be tendered?

MR. MOORES:

Will what be tendered?

MR. SWEENEY:

The land.

MR. MOORES:

I do not know how Environment and Conservation do that.

MR. SWEENEY:

Okay.

Water bombers - I see the

budget has some funding there for new water bombers.

Where will they be purchased from?

What is the plan? Will they

be new ones or used ones? What

would the plan be in the long term for those?

MR. MERCER:

We have had, I guess, a number of months of discussions now with Natural

Resources and Bombardier. We have

six CL-215 water bombers. Two of

those are a little older vintage than the other four.

There are two options for the newest four.

Those four can be refitted with turbine engines.

Right now, you have piston type engines that were used back - I guess

they became popular during the war, and parts for these engines are dwindling.

I think there has not been a part made since 1969; I believe that was

the last time the part was manufactured. They

are being recycled at a few locations throughout the world, so acquiring parts

is becoming difficult. The type of

fuel that they burn is also becoming an issue now as well.

They do not burn the type of fuel that the jet engines burn.

We have been looking at

some options in terms of - we have had some discussions with Bombardier - they

have re-established an assembly line to manufacture turbine engines for these

aircraft, and right now several provinces have signed on board and I think

they have an order for about eleven engines.

The cost of each engine is $20 million, plus some installation cost.

It is a significant investment to convert them to turbine.

The other option is to purchase new.

You cannot purchase the 215, though.

The aircraft that replaces the 215 is a 415.

It is a little larger aircraft. The

sale price for one of those right now is about $30 million.

MR. SWEENEY:

That is cheaper than two engines.

MR. MERCER:

Yes, it is, for a brand new aircraft. It

is about $130 million to buy four new ones; it is about $100 million to

retrofit four old ones. We are

doing some analysis on that with the Department of Natural Resources, and also

looking at the mix of the fleet in terms of, if you were to go and purchase

new aircraft, would you indeed purchase 415s or could a mix of 415s and some

other types of aircraft that other jurisdictions are using, like fireboxes,

which are a little smaller aircraft and a little bit more maneuverable in

tight spots - whether a mix of those might be right for us, so that is

ongoing.

If we are going to buy

turbine engines then we have to inform Bombardier by July, that we wish to do

so, in order to get into the cue for having turbine engines made.

If we do decide that, it will be 2010 before we take delivery of the

first engine, because we are number twelve; our first engine would be number

twelve in the cue. It takes about

eighteen months to make one of those engines, and they only make a couple at a

time.

Right now, I guess, it is

a work in progress, realizing that we have to make a decision this summer.

We have some budget available to make a down payment and get ourselves

in the cue for turbine engines to refit, or take the budget and make a down

payment on the purchase of new aircraft and start a replacement program.

MR. SWEENEY:

How long would it take to get the new ones?

MR. MERCER:

Generally, in discussions we have had with Bombardier, they typically only

build on order but they do have two or three that they do on speculation every

year, so they do have a couple. You

would not be able to go out and buy four tomorrow, but you may get one and

sort of get it off of the lot, if you want to call it that.

If you have to order it, then it is about a two year time frame to get

one.

MR. SWEENEY:

In the meantime, I guess the fleet we have now is probably good enough for the

next three years to provide ample protection?

MR. MERCER: Absolutely.

These aircraft are operating quite fine.

They are under regulatory regime by Transport Canada, so they go

through a very rigid inspection process. We

do keep an inventory of parts. We

have about $3 million worth of parts in our inventory at any one time.

We are still able to get the fuel that is needed.

When we do have to overhaul an engine, there is still at least one

place in North America that we can send the engine to get overhauled.

It is down in Denver, I believe. As

long as they stay in business then we are fine in terms of getting engines

overhauled.

We are not the only people

operating these piston engines. There

are quite a few provinces in the country, in North America, and even in Europe

and other places in the world, still using these engines, and people are

slowly moving towards either refitting or buying new.

MR. SWEENEY:

The new brand - what costs have been incurred or will be incurred by this

department because of the new branding announced by government in the past

little while?

MR. MOORES: It

is in the Budget in several places. It

will just take me a second to find it. To

use one example I am familiar with, we have to switch over the government ID

cards to the new brand. What we

did in the current year, even though ID cards were expiring, we deferred

replacing them until the details on the new brand were done.

That is on page 79; they even give an example.

It is under Technical Support Services.

We have one individual who

knows everybody in government: Sheila Kennedy.

She takes everybody = s

pictures. You will notice our

Budget there was $34,200 originally for IDs, the Revised is $15,000, and then

this year we are up to $58,200, so it is a shifting of the dollars because we

stopped producing the old cards.

The same thing with some

of the building signage. On some

of the signage on the buildings out there you might find some signs that still

say Works, Services and Transportation, or they might have, like in Government

Services - Government Services was Government Services and Lands - you still

might see some of the old signs. We

deferred replacing the signs and will be replacing them over the next two

years.

There is a cost in this

year = s

Budget, but the overall cost has somewhat been mitigated by not doing work

over the past year. It is not a

real quick answer to say how much additional it cost; it would take a bit of

time. It is not a lot dollars in

that sense.

MR. SWEENEY:

Okay, in that area with IDs.

MR. MOORES: Or

buildings.

MR. SWEENEY:

What about the vehicles, the trucks and the equipment?

MR. MOORES:

As to the decals?

MR. SWEENEY:

Yes.

MR. MOORES: I

will let Cluney answer that one.

MR. MERCER:

The cost of producing the decals that go on the heavy equipment or the light

equipment, that is not a very expensive item to do.

In replacing infrastructure, we have also been replacing heavy

equipment infrastructure as well, and light vehicles.

For instance, I think this year about one-third of the light vehicle

fleet will get replaced. When the

new vehicles come in, in September, the new decals are going on them, so you

are not duplicating cost. For the

new decal, there is no difference in the cost than the old one.

MR. SWEENEY:

So we are not stripping the old ones and replacing them with new ones?

MR. MERCER:

No, unless we have something that is going to stay in service for five years

or so.

CHAIR:

Mr. Sweeney, just for a moment here now, I think Ms Marshall has a question -

just to give you a break.

MS E. MARSHALL:

I was quite interested in Mr. Sweeney = s

questions relating to the CL-215s and I was wondering, are there four or six?

I didn = t

quite catch it. I was also

wondering, is it still an arrangement to share with the other provinces, like

if there were large forest fires, say, in New Brunswick

Document details

Collection	Newfoundland and Labrador — Committees
Citation	2002-07-05
Type	committee
Volume / chapter	committees_standingcommittees_govservices_ga45_tw07-05-02.htm
Language	en
Format	html
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e5cb73b3d7dfce3dfcf33fa02b6ee9cbcfaa5ad5

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