Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, APRIL 8, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 43

April 8, 1974 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair.· MR. SPEAI\ER: Order, please! Tape 1115 IB-;l PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. R. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I have not up until now had the honour of presenting a peti·tion in this honourable House. It never rains but it pours and today I am going to present five. I would ask the in~ulgence of the House. The first, Mr. Speaker, is on behalf of the honourable member for Lewisporte. It says, ''We, the undersigned do hereby urgently request that the

section of dirt road from Loon Bay to Boyd's Cove · on the Road to the Isles· be upgraded and paved starting this summer of 1974. The aforesaid

section of road is in a deplorable condition to the point where it is almost impassible at the present time. This

section of road is part of the main thoroughfare from the Trans Canada Highway to the Town of Twillingate where the hospital for the area is located. 11 We, the Local ImprOTement Committee of Birchy Bay suggest that you present this petition to the House at your earliest convenience. We anticip_!lt.e a favorable and early reply from you and your colleagues." That, Mr, Speaker, is signed. I have not counted them all but it; seems to me; I would suggest that there are close to 1,000 names of residents of the area affixed to that petition. Before saying a word or two on the petitiot\ itself, Mr.

Speaker, I propose to read the other petitions as well and then I will come back to this matter of road• 'The second petition, Mr, Speaker, reads: "We, the undersigned citizens of Kilbride,in the electoral district of St. John's South - MR. NEARY:·· Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the member would agree to separate the petitions because we may or may not. on this side of the House want to comment on the individual petitions. So, I think it would be in order, Sir, if the petitions were presented separately. 3375

April 8, 1974 Tape 1115 ~- WELLS: Well, I am in a good mood and if that woµld help the honourable member I would be delighted. MR. E. ROBERTS (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): Inaudible. MR. WELLS: Is that so? Very well. IB-2 MR. ROBERTS: It is not a matter of grace. It is a matt.er of principle. MR. W. ROWE: The honourable the Leader of the Opposition is graceful as usual. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, on the question of the road from Loon Bay to Boyd's Cove, and the Road to the Isles, this is a road of course that has been built now some years.

It carries a lot of traffic because it has I suppose almost the status of a trunk road really. It carries a lot of traffic from these islands, the island of Notre Dame Bay,in through Boyd's Cove and in of course to Central Newfoundland,to the branching out to the ar~as of Gand~r, Grand Falls, all of Central Newfoundland and the rest of the province. There is no question, Mr.

Speaker, that when a road carries a certain amount of traffic - this has been proven over and over again in practice - that no matter how well it is attempted to keep up a road, a gravel road that is, when a certain amomit of traffic uses it, it is a failing proposition, a proposition that one cannot win. The amount I suspect in some of these cases spent in maintenance exceeds, over a period of four or five years, the cost of paving. So, that road, the Road to the Isles.as it is called, there is no question about it that the traffic over that road is sufficient to warrant paving.

The people who have to use it suffer what people who have to u~e unpaved roads always suffer in terms of damage to motor vehicles. It 'is not just a question of comfort. It is a question of dollars and cents when you have to have a new muffler, a new tail pipe, a new car perhaps two or three years sooner than one otherwise ought to have. I would in the case of this petition, Mr. Speaker, refer it or ask that it be referred to the department to which it relates,which of course is Transportation and Communication,and ur~ently ask all 3376

April 8, 1974 Tape 111.S IB-3 members in the House to support this petition on behalf of the membe'r from that area. MR, CILLETTE: Mr. Speaker, I am sure I speak for everybody on this side of the House and in fact on both sides of the Bouse when I support this petition. I would also add that apart from the road between Loon Bay and Boyd's Cove there are three miles beyond Boyd's Cove, still on the Road to the Isles,that needs upgrading and paving. I believe that this

section if not worse, is equally as bad as the

section between Loon Bay and Boyd's Cove. Both these sections, particularly in the spring, become just about impassible. They both are bad, really bad. I do hope, Mr. Speaker, that the ~inister of Transportation and ColllDlunication along with his colleague, the Minister of Finance, to~ether will be able to see fit to upgrade and pave this

section of the road. It is needed very badly,I assure you. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, the s.econd petition ll'hich I have is from the citizens of Kilbride in the electoral district of St. John's South. 3377.

April 8, 1974 Tape 1116 ~K - l '. It says; "We,the undersigned etc. respectfully petition the honourable House of Assembly and the Government of Newfoundland to accede to the request of the St. John's Metropolitan Area Board that a guarantee be: provided which would enable the St. John's Metropolit~n Area Board to construct phases two and three of the water and sewerage project of Kilbride. • The first phase of the water and sewerage project was completed in 1972 and for reasons of health and public convenience the second and third phases are of extreme urgency and importance.

Respectfully submitted by 300 residents of Kilbride." Now, Mr. Speaker, in the scheme of things it is hard for one to say which is more :important to the given time in Newfoundland today . or in a given district, roads or water and sewerage. But 1 think that when the density of population reaches a certain point then it seems to me that it_may be that water and sewerage is even more important than pavement, because pavement is a matter of convenience and roney.

In other words, the damage to vehicles you get without it, but water and sewerage is even more serious because without water and sewerage you come to the health hazard. Now, Mr. Speaker, Kilbride has now reached that point. The first phase was completed more than a year ago. The second and thitd phases are planned. They are ready to gq. The Metropolit3n Area Board is ready to let the contract. The ~rice has been arrived at or at least what it ought to cost. Eveeything is ready to go..

The Metropolitan Area Board intends and proposes to borrow the money to construction it and the people of Kilbride will then pay for it as part of a regular assessment by the board. So in other words, the people of Kilbride, Mr. Speaker, are not asking the ~overnment to d1p into general tax revenue and pay.for this. They are askinr, the government to guarantee the loan by the Metropolit3n Area Board which over a period of years, twenty· years I think allowed by law, '7111 be rep11id by the citizens of Kilbride. Nov, Mr. Spe11ker, the Metropolitan Area Board has asked for thi  3378

• April 8, 1974 Tape 1116 PK - 2 co11D11itment. The answer has not yet been given but it is a matter of extreme seriousness to the people because Kilbride is growing very, very rapidly. There are three or four new subdivisions that have goQe there in the past year. People are building, residents of Kilbride and people are moving into the area.and building. If water and sewerage are not provided there then within a matter of a year or two, in fact . .. /" already there exists a health hazard. This is something, Mr.

Speaker, which is of vital concern and as I say, it is not·a case of asking the government to provide the money, these people will pay this back just as the people of the first phase are paying it back. It is simply guarantee. I would hope that I would have the unanimous support in presenting this petition of every member of this House because it is vital and necessary that this work be done. So I will t&ble this petition, Mr. Speaker, and ask that it be conveyed to the department to which it relates. MR• SPEAKER: The honourable gentleman for. Bell Island. MR. S. A. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker,,it goes without saying that on this side of the House we support the petition on behalf of the residents of Kilbriae who are anrlous~to proceed with the second and third phases of their water and sewerage, Sir. B-ii"t I may point out to the member who presented the petition that his philosophy that he mentioned about the Metropolitan Area Board borrowing the money is not new. All petitions that have been presented in this honourable House, Sir, concernin~water and sewerage, are financed in the same way, and this has been going on for years. 3379

April 8, 1974 Tape no. 1117 Page 1 - MW The ~unicipalities borrow the money on a guarantee from the government and it is financed under the Municipal Loan Board. rnere is nothing new in that. That is perfectly normal. The member is absolutely justified, of course, in asking to have it done. I just want to point out to the House, however, that this is not a new concept at all, Sir. It is something that has been followed in this province fqr years and years and something that concerns probably the Minister of Finance greatly because the Municipal Loan Fund is climbing rather raoidly in this province.

We support the petition, Sir, because,as the member rightly pointed out, the area is becoming heavily built up down there. There have been a couple of new subdivisions down there in the last couple of years. It is almost as bad now, Mr. Speaker,as the South Shore of Conception Bay. It will be if something be not done about it. I noticed the minister,when he was presenting the petition, did not tell us if the controversial situation ~hat arose there a year or so ago, that the member got caught in the _middle of, concerning water and sewer rates down-there, has been cleared up or not. AN HON.

MEMBER: That has been resolved. MR. NEARY: That has been resolved. Well, I am certainly glad to hear that, Sir. We do support this petition. We hope that when the Minister of Finance brings down his budget on Wednesday or Thursday, whenever it is, (My understanding is Wednesday of this week) that there will be money allocated to do this work down at Kilbride and all the other municipalities in Newfoundland and Labrador. MR. WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, I have here a petition which reads: "We the citizens of the Old Blackhead Road, living in the area one mile beyond Shea Heights, hereby petition the hono4rable House of Assembly and request that one mile of pavement be laid on the road fronting out properties as the amount of traf,fic on the said road is heavy an.d the road condition is very bad during most times of the year 1 especially in spring and summer. 3380

April- 81 1974 Tape no. 1117 Page 2 "It is respectfully requested that the honourable House of Assembly and the government take steps to correct this appalling situation." That is signed by in excess of one hwtdred ~esidents who live along that road. 1 might say, Mr. Speaker, by word of an explanation, that that is the·road which is still unpaved and it begins where the development of the new Shea Heights ends. It goes on out to the Colllllunity of Black Head, which is a distance of ·about five to six miles,and then from there goes on out to the park at Cape Spear.

It is very unfortunate that it is now 1974 and twenty-five years of Confederation have passed and that road has not been paved, although it is a federal park, out at the end of it. It is a very scenic spot and it is a very necessary spot in my view for a very necessary road to be paved. The one mile from the end of the Shea Heights Development out that road,which has houses on both sides of it, near the area of Beaver Pond, for that one mile not to be paved. is absolutely appalling, Mr. Speaker, as the petition says. There are people living on it. It is rough, it ls dusty, it is dangerous.

I do not think a great deal would have to be done by way of upgrading and I imagine that_ pavement could be laid up that road at a cost of approximately $100,000 or $150,000.

Whereas the road to Blackhead and to Cape Spear is important and deserving of attention, this particular piece of road for the convenience of the residents who live there, is absolutely vital, Hr. Speak.er. I would ask that this petition be tabled and referred to the Department of Trensportation and Communications to which it refers. I would hope that I will have the support and sympathy of all members of the House in this matter. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I rise on behalf of my colleagues on this side of the House in support of the petition presented by the Member for St. John's South.

I certainly agree with the prayer of the petition, especially at this time of the year when the roads are pract~cally 3381

April 8, 1974 Tape no. 1117 Page 3 almost impassable, that is the dirt roads in the province. I had the experience just this weekend of driving over the road from Eastport to 3unaside and the road is practically impossible for any ordinary car, one would almost need a four-wheel drive vehicle. One of the roads going down into St. Chad's was washed out altogether, One could n.ot travel over it. I imagine the road that the me1!1her is speaking about, at this time of the year, is po11&ibly . i .n the lil&ine .condition as are many other roads throughout ~he pro_vince.

Of course, . the only answer for this is to have these roa.ds paved. Mr. Speaker, t fully sympathize with the prayer of the pe,tition, when I realized the hardships that; these people go through, especially during the summer mon•tbs because of the extreme dusty conditions. ~- Speaker, we on this side of the House certainly support the petition and we trust that the Minister of 3382

April 8, 1974 Tape No. 1118 NM - 1 . Transportation and Communications will see fit to have this little bit of pavement laid during the coming season. MR. NEARY: An anniversary present. MR. THOMS: An anniversary present, yes. MR. WELLS: This petition which I have here is virtually on the same matter and I will present it without much comment because I have already commented on the position.

It says: ''We the undersigned residents of Blackhead Road and vicinity request immediate attention be given to the condition of Blackhead Road from Shea Heights to Blackhead," and in that sense it is different from the other petition. ''We understand that this road is due· for upgrading and paving this year and we hope that this work will start as soon as possible." So having made my comments I can present that without further coD111ent and perhaps nobody else would care particularly to co11111ent or would they? Well before the honourable member gets up, the points that I made are such, Mr.

Speaker, that this is not only for the ·community of Blackhead but to the park. It is one of the most beautiful areas in the whole greater St. John's Area and I think deserving not only of sympathetic consideration but deserving of - . practical conslderation in terms of taxpayers dollars for upgrading and subsequently paving. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for White Bay South. MR. WM. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, it is_ with pleasure that I rise on behalf of my colleagues to support the petition presented by the member for St. John's South.

We think the road he has referred to should be upgraded and paved, I have considerable sympathy for his problem. I have been in contact with some residents of my own constituency. Members may have heard on the radio today one particular instance, the road from Fleur de Lys to Baie Verte, twelve miles long. It is taking people one and a half hours to traverse that distance by car, Mr. Speaker, because of the condition of the road,wbich 3383

April 8, 1974 Tape No. 1118 NM - 2 . is less than ten miles an hour; it comes to about eight miles an hour I believe. So it is with considerable ~ympathy that I rise to support the honourable member's petition in respect of his own district. I do hope that the government can find the money to look at the roads that he is so concerned about and at the same time find some money to reinstate the project I just referred .to which had been commenced some four years ago, an -upgrading progra:mne for that

section of road. When this present administration got into power that particular project was deleted, taken off the list, Mr. Speaker, and no further work was done on it and as a result you have 150 workers going back and forth the road every day to Advocate Mines who are being bogged down, people going back and forth to the hospital, school children going back and forth to school, over nothing short of atrocious, deplorable road conditions. So while supporting the honourable member's petition,! also throw in a word or tvo on behalf of my own constituents, Mr. Speaker. MR. WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, the last of these petitions comes also from that one mile between the present Shea Heights out toward Blaclche4d where the mile with the residents live along is. It says: "We the undersigned ask for water and sewerage to be put in our homes this summer." It is not perhaps the normal wording of a petition but it is very clear what the residents are concerned with. This is not too difficult a project. It would be a project I think that ought to be undertaken and would be undertaken in the normal course of things if the guarantee wcreavailable by the Metropolitan Board.

The services have already been put in _ Shea Heights at considerable cost but I think that it has been justified. Shea Heights, and I do not know if members have driven up there recently but Shea Heights is turning into and will become a very worthwhile and beautiful community. Some very fine homes have been built there and 3384

April 81 1974 Tape No. 1118 NM - 3 there is no question about it, it has improved out of all recognition in the last four or five years. To provide water and sewera~e for the people that tnis petition concerns, which is approximately a mile of road, would require tapping on to the present system which technically as I understand it would pose no difficulty and which can be done and I earnestly submit on behalf of these residents, Mr. Speaker,.,.abould be done. I hereby ask that this petition be tabled and referred again to the department to which it relates. MR, SPEAKER: The honourable member for ,Placentia East.

MR. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition from the sheep breaders in the St. Bride's Area. There are a number of individuals on the Cape Shore who in accord with a long time historic custom in Newfoundland keep sheep. But this particular area, Mr. Speaker, is well adapted to sheep raising and in fact they have a very, very large community pasture in the St. Bride's Area and the prayer of this petition is that a road be constructed, an access road, from the area

April 8, 1974. Tape 1119 RH - 1 where they round up these sheep to an auction pen. Last year they brought in a system of auctioning the sheep on the Cape Shore, It was very, very successful and it brought some great prices or more attractive prices to the sheep breeders in the area. Now, the petitioners bring to our attention that while it may be considered a minor matter and a very short road yet the sheep have to travel through bog for a distance of approximately one mile.

During this time they become very, very dirty and as a result when they reach the auction pen they look very, very dirty and they feel that the prices they receive at the auction is certainly detrimentally affected by the appearance of the sheep after travelling through this bog. They have estimated their loss at approximately two dollars a sheep. Now there were eight hundred sheep there last year, raised -in the area. This year it is estimated that there will be one thousand sheep and these one thousand sheep will produce ap­ proximately fifteen hundred lambs. As you can imagine, Mr.

Speaker, this will be a large number of sheep and.at the price of-meat today, it brings a fair amount of income t~ the people in the area. In fact, it says in terms of income the sheep referred to will represent an - investment for them of $37,500 and divided amongst the number of sheep breeders,which is only approximately fifty, it would mean a substantial income for those people who supplement their other income from the fisheries. So~ Mr. Speaker, it is not a very, very costly matter and I sincerely trust that the department concerned will see fit to pro­ vide the funds for the construction of that road.

If I may be permitted another reference, Mr. Speaker, that the petition also brinP,s to my mind,and that is that this year there is a substantial increase in the pasture feed. This has presented a heavy burden to these individuals. The prayer of the petition is as well as for the construction of this road is to ask the minister to have this Hou~e request the Minister of Agriculture to review his 3386

April 8, 1974. Tape 1119 RH - 2 decision respecting the increase in rates paid or expected to be paid by individuals who use these pastures to raise their sheep. ~o. Mr. Speaker, I ask that this petition be laid on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. I anticipate the support of all members. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member from Bonavista North. MR. P.S. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, on this side of the House we have no hesitation whatsoever in rising to support the petition from the cattlemen of St. Brides.

We believe that the government of the day and of course any government should do all in its power to encourage our farmers in Newfoundland to raise more livestock so that we may in turn produce more meat for the people of our Province. I also support the portion of the petition which would like to see the high pasture fees revoked,which have been invoked by the minister in the past couple of weeks or so. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that these fees are ~orbitant. They will drive many of our people who are in the livestock business out of business.

I would also like to have my word that I would like to see the minister review these fees with the idea of withdrawing them before the rents are paid for the pastures during the coming season. MOTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Minister of Finance. MR. J.C. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow move The House Resolve Itself Into A Committee Of The Whole to consider a Certain Resolutions For The Granting Of Supply To Her Majes~y.u Mr. Speaker, I will also move That On Wednesday·next priority/ be given the. government's motion on Ways And Means And Supply." It was planned, Mr.

Speaker, to bring the budget down on Wed­ nesday,with the concurrance of the official opposition. I have not had a chance to ask the member for Labrador South, as a matter of fact ~ forgot but he nodds his consent, I think. With the consent of the Opposition,we plan to bring the bud~et down on Wednesday and the budget speech will be delivered then. of motions. I therefore five the above notice 3387

April .8, 1974. Tape 1119 .'RH - .3 MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, for our part, we have agreed that as far as ve are concerned 3388

April 8, 1974 'rape 1120 PK - 1 Sir, any private members business will not take priority on Wednesday and that the minister, as it is tradition I.believe and the way in this honourable House, the minister will give his Budget Speech, his rendition of the Budget Speech on Wednesday coming. The minister might like to also like to inform the House what he intends to do thereafter because I understand there is going to be an adjournment to give members a chance to study the speech on the estimates. MR. CROSBIE: If our Rouse Leader concurs - Does he concur,Mr. Speaker?

I understand that it has been agreed that the Bouse v:111 adjourn after t~e Budget Speech until a week, the following day, until a week,the next day, Thursday 18,for the Easter adjournment. Actually there is so much food for thought in this Budget that it will take at least one ~eek for everyone to •digest it. QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for St. Barbe North. MR. F. B. ROWE: I would like to address a question to the Hon. Mini•ter of Transportation and Communications.

Have tenders been called for the reconstruct and paving of the local roads in Flat Bay and Bi.ghl.ands, in the provincial District of St. George'a? MR. SPEAKER:· The Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. BON. T. P. HICKEY (MINISTER OF TRANSPORTATION AND COMMUNICATIONS): Mr. Speaker, I will advise the honourable gentleman later this afternoon. MR. SPEAKER: .The honourable Member for Labrador South. MR. M •. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Hon. the Minister of Health.

It is a matter · of some urgency at this time because I have been informed by certain officials in the civil service that the funds in question have to be disposed of one way or another in short order, in a matter ofdays I believe it is. It concerns the proposed clinic at Port Hope Simpson. Now the question is in tvo parts really; Does the minister intend that his department administer this fund·for the construction of the clinic? If not, v:111 the minister undertake to have this money deposited to the account of the C011111Unity Council at Port Hope Simpson so that the council may get on with the 3389

April 8, 1974 Tape 1120 PK - 2 job? One or the other? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Health. DR. A. T. ROWE (MINISTER OF HEALTR) :Mr. Speaker, in answer to the honourable mec~er, we will have to speak to him outside of the House and try and get the details and ascertain the situation. up on the details at the moment. I am not cleared MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for St. Barbe North. MR. ROWE , F. B. Another question to the Minister of Transportation and Communications.

Approximately one week ago the minister undertook to f1nd out whether or not a p_lan for the proposed road has been drafted up by the officials of his department,through the provincial District of St. Barbe North. I wonder whether the minister has the answer to that question yet . .MR. RICKEY: No, Mr. Speaker, I do not. MP .. ROWE, F. B: A supplementary question. Mr. Speaker, can the minister indicate when he will be able to get this information, Sir? MR. HICKF:Y: Mr.

Speaker, just as soon as I am in a position to inform the honourable member what is to be done in his district, I will. do so ~ That is what I told him that ~ay and that still stands. MR. ROWE, F. B: Mr. Speaker, just to straighten out the question. I think the honourable minister might have misinterpreted my question. I am asking the minister whether plans have been drawn up for a proposed road to go through t11e District of St. Barbe North.

I will be only too happy to hear whether there is any actual work going to be carried out but the question I am asking is; have there been plans drafted for a proposed road? 1' MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, there are always plans to attend to roads in every district in the province. I am not aware of any district that is not represented in terms of an overall roads program.me. It is ,omething else what is approved and what eventually ends up in any particular programme for any given year.

This is why I would advise the h1mourable member, when r ·am in a position to advise him what would be done in his diRtrict, I certainly would. I cannot confirm. It is certainly not my l<novledP,e that at any time that St. Barbe North, indeed any other 3390

April 8, 1974 tape 1120 PK - 3 district in the _province where there is a need for.road vork, it is ·not represented in an overall programte by my department. MR. 'SPEAKER: the honourable Member for Twillingate. MR. R. W. C. GILLETT: thank you, Mr. ·speaker • .... 3391 ~-

April 8, 1974 Tape 1121 PK - 1 I have a question that I would like to direct to the Minister of Tourism, Mr. Speaker. That is,what amount of the $113,800 will go to the Clarvenville Shipyard for the restoration of the motor vessel ''Norma and Gladys"? HON. T. M. DOYLE (~INISTER OF TOURISM): I will have to take that as notice, Mr. Soeaker. I will get the answer for the honourable member. MR. GILLETT: Well I have a.supplementary question, if I may, Mr. Speaker. I am just wondering whether or not tenders were called for the restoration and if not, why·not? Or how the work of restoration was awarded? MR.

DOYLE: I will include all of that in the answer, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Fogo, CAPT. E.W. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Hon. Minister of Fisheries . Once again I have to ask him if he can tell the House when the fishermen of all the Strait Shore and along the Northeast Coast expect to be paid for storm damages which occurred last June2 Now I am thinking mostly of the lobster fishermen. I understand very few, if any, of the fishermen have been paid even though the minister had stated that it would be paid several weeks ago. MR. SPEAKER.: The Hon.

Minister of Fisheries. HON. H. A. COLLINS (MINISTER OF FISHERIES): Mr. Speaker, if the honourable member is referring to payments for lobster pot losses, I can tell him that all the claims have been processed through our department. Many of the cheques have already been issued ~y Finance and I would suspect they are all in the mail now, They were processed through us into Finance and I believe that they have all gone out, · MR. wn:.soR: I have a question for the Hon. ~inister of Education.

I wonder if the minister can tell us if it is true that students who are attendin~ classes soonsored by the College of Fisheries and who are not eli~ible for payu,~nt through Canada Manpower are receiving the · sum of $1.50 per day? HON. G. R. OTTE~1-!EIXER (~INISTER OF EDUCATI ON): Mr. Speaker, the students at the College of Fisheries, provincial students, tho·se who 3392 -f'

April 81 1974 Tape 1121 PIC - 2 are not i .n Manpower• receive the same amount as stQdents at the College of Trades and the various district vocational schools and there is a differential, whether they are married or unmarried or living ju the area, if the school is in the area, their home or not, but it is approximately $25.00 a week. I am not aware of any formula the honourable gentleman referred to. MR. WINSOR: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Maybe I did not make my- self quite clear to the honourable minister but there are classes held in certain areas of Newfoundland arid where students who have - or I do not know whether you would classify them as students or not but men ' who are attending those classes and are not eligible because they have_ not been out of school for one year, but maybe f9r eight or ten months. This is the fishery classes which are sponsored through the College of Fisheries. I understand that they are paid $1.50 a day plus seventy cents per day if they live beyond fifteen miles.

MR .• OTTENHEmER: ls the honourable member referring to the travelling schools, presumably. The schools of two, three, four weeks duration in engine repair and netting repair, in that area? Right! I thought that the honourable gentleman was referring to what we call the provincial-students, that is those who are there of various ages including people in their .forties and fifties, they do not have to be necessarily young, where there is a regular fee and there is a regular payment

schedule for all of them. I would have to check on the rates for the travelling schools. Rather than give inaccurate information, I will check on that, the rates~ for people attending the travelling schools. MR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the minister's reply. But surely if that be the case. then they are paid far less than the ainiaua wage. MR • . OT'l'ENHEIMER: that. Until I check on the fee, I cannot really comment on MR. WINSOR: Could the honourable member let me know? 3393

April 8, 1974 Tape 1121 PK - 3 MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for White Bay. South. MR. W. N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications, concerning which we have already had a private exchange of views. I want to ask the minister what steps are being taken to relieve the people of Fleur de Lys and Coachman's Cove of the deplorable road conditions which they are now suffering, that is on the road from Fleur de Lys to Baie Verte? MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, the latest information I have is that additional equipment is being moved into the area to correct the situation as quickly as possible. However, ~here is a limited amount that can be done as long as the road remains soft, in certain sections it is quite possible that there are some sections which are not being worked at even though there is equipment available. I am told to place equipment in those particular areas would make the road worse. So it is hoped that the road will either dry up or freeze up to some degree where the equipment c'an go in.

I am advised that additional equipment is in the area or at least on its way to attempt to look after it. MR. W. N. ROWE: A supplementary question, Sir. My understanding is that this condition has arisen in the last few days because of the thaw and I have not had a first hand look at it because the House is in session. From the minister's reports, from his officials, is this an extraordinary situation compared to other roads around the province? Is it a generally experienced situation or what is it? What do~his officials report on it, Mr. Speaker? MR. HICKEY: No, ~!r.

Speaker, my road report today, for the entire ... province vi thout except ion, each district, f·rom District I to District 4, is experiencing this problem. It has been a very unusual year in as much a~ there has been heavy frost and very soon after the heavy frost a lot of rain or moisture resulting in washouband water aanrtot penetrate the i;(round; as a result our roads are taking quite a beating. It is estimated that our maintenance cost as a result of this is going to be very, very hiph during the coming year. 3394

April 8, 1974 Tape 1121 PK - 4 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. S. A. NEARY: While the Hon. Premier is in his seat for a few minutes, I wonder if he would be good enough to inform the House how many Newfoundlanders will ftnd employme'nt on the construction in the development of the Lower Churchill this year, this calendar year? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Premier. RON. F. D, MOORES (PREMIF:R): As many as possible, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Well a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Could the Hon.

Premier then inform us when hiring will actually commence for work on the construction of the Lower Churchill? MR. MOORES: Speaker. MR. NEARY: As soon as possible and as quickly as we can, Mr. The same old answers, Sir. I wonder, Sir, if the Minister of Justice, maybe we can get a little more information out of him.

Would the Minister of Justice inform the House, if his department has undertaken an investigation into the sudden flurry of activity on the stock market, especially involving 82,500• shares of BRINCO that changed hands immediately prior to the government's announcement that they were going to take over BRINCO? AN HON. MEMBER: Ask Joey. MR. SPEAKER: I think that question should be placed on the Order Paper ·. MR. NEARY: I think the Minister of Justice would like to answer the question. BmT. T. A. HICKMAN. (MiNISTER OF JUSTICE): Mr.

Speaker, to my knowiedge~ this has not come to the attention of the Department of Justice. I would imagine when ~t does it will be a very serious jurisdictional question as to whether we would have the right to conduct that sort of an investigation on the stock exchange. But I have to confess.not being an investor, I do not know very much about the ~tock exchanges in Montreal or Toronto, but I doubt if we would have the right to carry out that sort of an investigation in Toronto or Montreal. But to my knowledge it has not come to the attention of the Denartment of Justice, Mr. Speaker.

April 8, 1974 Tape 1121 PK - 5 MR. ?IF.ARY: t..'ell, Hr. Speaker, docs the honourable minister not think that it is the duty of his department and him, as Minister of Justice_, to find if there were a - AN HON. HEM"BER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: No, I am asking a question, Mr. Speaker, to the minister to find out if there were a leak or if it were just a coincidence that this activity took place leading up to the government taking over o:r offering to buy BRINCO? MR. HICI<!'!AN: That is not - MR . NF.ARY: Does the ministe r think - MR . SPEAKER: Order, please!

The honourable member's question is argumentative and as such it is out of order. Hon. Minister of Finance. RON. J.C. CROSPIE (MINISTER OF FINANCE): On that point, Mr, Speaker, there should be a correction of fact here. There was no unusual flurry of activity in the trad ing of BRINCO shares ... 3396

April 8, 1974. Tape 1122 RH.- 1 in the four or five or six weeks leading up to the takeover of BRIMCO, that I have already told the House and told the press,that the 82,500,000 shares that the member fo~ Bell Island refers to,that were transferred towards the end. of February,have absolutely nothing to do with this government or anything to do with the takeover of BRINCO. The government, despite its inquiries,cannot learn who sold those shares or who purchased them since the sale was arranged through one investm ·ent brokers and they of course are not going to reveal the names of their clients.

So it has no relation at all with this government. We can get no further information on it apart from what I have said. There was no unusual trading , in the BRINCO shares. If there had been any unusual trade in,we would have expedited the takeover because of that very reason. It was watched every day and there was no unusual activity. MR. W. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, on the same subject, since the Minister of Finance has gotten into it now and opened it up somewhat, has the government, the Minister of Justice or the Minister of Finance com­ municated with the Ontario Securities Commission or the Quebec Securities Commission with their request_for information on that particular sale? MR. CROSBIE: No. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bell Island. MR.. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, will the minister undertake to get in touch with the security people in Ontario and in Quebec to find out if there were a leak or if this is just merely a coincidence?

It may be all well and good but we would like to know. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I have no hesitation undertaking that. Whether or not they can get the infonnation is another question. I have to contact them and ask and see if they will. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Transportation and C0111munications: Would the minister care to comment on a statement made today by the Construction Association, that they were shocked to learn from a statement made by the minister last week that the reason more work did not go ahead in Newfoundland last 3397

April 8, 1974. Tape 1122 RH - 2 year .was because there were no contractors to do it. Does the minister wish to comment on that statement? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! the honourable minister wish do so. That question seems argumentative. If to co1TU11ent on it, I shall permit him to MR. T.P. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, the only comment I have to make is that I am not necessarily surprised. I am sorry to learn that they have been shocked but if facts are going to shock them then I guess that is just one of those things. MR.

NEARY: I wonder, Sir, if the Minister of Manpower, Sir, who I am sure is anticipating a question about the strike in Labrador City, could the minister inform the House if his department is involved or he, as member for the district, is anyway involved in the strike in Labrador City? MR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. MR. J.G. ROUSSEAU: Yes. It was a quiet weekend. Saturday and Sunday there were no wildcats but this morning there was. The union phoned me this morning befo·re the meeting. The union phoned me this afternoon after the meeting, early this ~fternoon.

I have been contac·ted by them, indirectly and informally by the company. I am aware of ~he situation, yes, and I have been in contact with them. That is all I can say right now on the matter. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a couple of questions for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Fir~t of all, Sir, I would like to ask the minister if he would inform the House of all the work or if all the work will be completed on Shea Heights before it is turned into a municipality or before it is taken over by the City of St. John's? Because there is a lot of outstanding work that has to be done there?

Will it be all done before any move is made to turn it over to the City of St. John's or to have its own municipality? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. H.R.V. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, work is proceeding as quickly as possible on the Shea Heights. There has been no decision as yet as to whether it 3398

April 8, 1974. Tape 1122 RH - 3 will or will not be turned over to the City of St. John's or to any other body, Some meetings are about to take place in which these very subjects will be discussed, HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, will the minister tell us if be has aet with a delegation from the Town of Mount Pearl in the last day or so? MR. EARLE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I met with Mount Pearl. HR. NEARY: Sir, a supplementary question: Would the minister inform the House then if the government has acceded to their request to extend the boundary of the Town of Mount Pearl? MR.. WLE: No, Mr.

Speaker, we, have not acceded but that is also under discussion. HR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed to Orders of the Day, on Friday past the honourable member from Port au Port rose on a point of personal privilege in relation to statements made by the honourable the member for Sc. Barbe North on CJON. I think it was that same day. I took the.aatter under advisement and I received a transcript of the remarks made on Friday by the honourable member from Port au Port.

As no motion was made as to what the action should be,I feel I have to rule it not a point of privilege,but I am sure the honourable member from Port au Port rose to make his feelings known to the hon­ ourable House, of his disagreement with the statement made by the honourable member. MR. F. STAGG (Port au Port): I just :,hope there is no ambiquity in that. The substance of my remarks wa'I not dealt with by Your Honour, It was just merely the framing -of the point of privilege and on the technical point that there was no motion contained in my request. This is the reason for it being ruled out of order.

Is that so? MR.. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise and say that I assume that this is the same reason why my point of ~rivile~e the day before was ruled out of order, Is that so, Sir? MR.. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order on this whole matter. If the honourable member for Port au Port, the Deputy-Speaker, 3399

April 8, 19 7 4 • Tape 1122 ,! RH - 4 want to make a motion, that is one thing,or any other member, the House Leader, but the rules of order are very clear, Sir, and I refer .Your Honour to pa~e 57 of Beauchesne, whatever edition we are using here, ., the fourth edition or third, the fourth'idition, Sir, page 57, para­ graph 68 (1) , down at the bottom of pa~e 57, "The Speaker's jurisdiction does not extend to words outside the House". J' So I would submit, Sir, that Your Honour's ruling was eminently correct. Your Honour does not have the jurisdiction to deal with the matter.

If the member wish to make a motion himself or if the House Leader or any other member want to make a motion, let the House deal with the matter. That is a different question. !be Speaker does not have the jurisdiction to deal with words spoken outside the House. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. HON. L. BARRY: If I could just speak to that point of privilege, just to avoid confusion arising in the future. That is total nonsens~.

If there be a statement made outside the House which reflects upon conduct of members inside this House,that can be a subject of a motion of privi­ lege and there are sitations from Beauchesne to establish that. I will refer them to the honourable member if he should wish me to. MR, W. ROWE: What the honourable minister says is absolutely tr~e. Maybe if he listened to what was said instead of being consumed with what he himself is going to say he might learn somethin~.

I have said that there is no reason whatsoever why a member of this honourable House cannot at any time make a motion to any effect after having giving notice of motion thereto, no question there at all,whether that effect privile~e or anythin~ else. Usually the House Leader will do it. What lam sayin~,Sir, is that page 57 of this book is clear as an authority in statinp: that the Speaker does not have .1urisdiction over words spoken outsicle the House.

The Speaker ie II servant of tl1e House and of course will do what the House orders him to do by way of a motion but that does not detract frota what I submitted as my point of order to Your Honour. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, what the honourable member from White Bay 3400

April 8, 1974. Tape 1122 RH - 5 South says has absolutely no relationship or relevancy to the point of · order as I see it, Obviously,the Speaker .does not draw attention to matters or statements said outside of the House as he vould on statements said in the Rouse itself but the fa.ct of the matter is that statel!lents can be made ·outside the House which are a breach of privilege. I understand that this is not the basis of Your Honour in ruling, that Your Honour's ruling is based purely on a technicality and it cer­ tainly is not on the merits of the case itself. MR..

SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR.. ROBERTS: Thank you. If 1 may speak :to this point of order, Mr. Speaker, because I ·11hink we have touched upon an important point. I think that all three gentlemen, my friend from White Bay South and the members for St. John's East and Placentia West,are in agreement but I think it is worth stating so that we could be clear. There are certain matter that Your Honour notices on Your Honour's own initiative. For example, if I were to use an unparliamentary phrase Your Honour would not need any motion or any prompting.

Your Honour would merely call me to order and then if I did not come to order the inevitable and proper conseqyences would follow. There are other matters which Your Honour may notice only if . . -... . . ~-~/ . the House•directs Your Honour,as our spokesman, our Speaker, to inquire into and matters outside this House fall within the latter category, Sir. That is the sitation to which my friend, the member from White Bay South,refers. The sitation f!om Beauchesne is quite clear.

The ruling under discussion, although that is not under discussion, a ruling is a ruling, as I understand it is predicated upon the fact that the gentleman from Port au Port did not have the courage of his convictions, was not willing to put the matter to the test, that he merely used an underhanded way to try to get a dart in at the gentleman from St. Barbe South. That is fine. Your Honour has not made a ruling, as I understand it, on the substantive matter of whether or not there is a prima facie breach of privilege in the remarks alle~ed to have been made by my friend, the member from St. Barbe South. 3401

April 8, 1974. Tape 1122 RR - 6 If Your Honour wish to rule on that point, then I would submit 1 that Your Honour would invite subllliss ions from us and our submission would be that because the matter is outs i de the House,in the absence of a r:?Otion from the Rouse, Your Honour has no jurisdiction, no authority for those words. I think the Beauchesne sitations are correct and they are full, and the schoolboy debater from Placentia West and the Rouse Leader 3402

April 8, 1974 Tape 1123 IB-1 from.here - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, as I said the schoolboy debater who insists upon proving his schoolboyishness and the House Leader for the government side and the gentleman·from White Bay South have all made essentially the same point,but I think it is a point well worth making. MR. SPEAKER: I think honourable members will remember that on Friday when I was speaking about the matter, I said that if the House directed me to obtain the tapes from CJON, I would hear them and rule on this. I was not directed by the House to obtain such tapes.

I said if the honourable member for Port au Port we~e to bring me the tapes - he has brought the tapes to me but I understand that the fa·cili ties up in Hansard are not such that they can be played or replayed on that. So, I have not actually heard the tape with the honourable member for St, Barbe North's statement. \ I did rule that no motion was )nade on the matter and I think it should end right there unless the honourable the member for Port au Port wish to bring in a notice of motion about the matter • .

ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion of the Honourable the Minister of Education a bill,_ '!An Act Respecting The Newfoundland Teachers' Association," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. AODRESS IN REPLY: MR. SPEAKER: Address in Reply: It ha~ been a while since we have done that. I think the honourable Minister of ~ines and Energy rose and adjourned the debate last time. RON. L. BARR! (MINISTER OF MINES AND ENERGY): Lots of notice. Mr. Speaker, I am caught off guard here but if the honourable members will give me an opportunity to check into my voluminous research - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible.

MR. BARRY: No, I think we can, as soon as we get our motions right here, determine what we are speaking on and carry on, 3403

April 8, 1974 Tape 1123 IB-2 Mr. Speaker, do you have any idea how long I spoke before? A.~ HO~Ot!RABLF. ME"'BER: Too long. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member merely rose in his place and adjourned the debate. MR. BARRY: Just adioumed the debate. Okay, thank you. I wanted to make certain that I did not start at the beginning and if I had already given you these words of wisdom before, Mr. Speaker. Now, this is not on the motion of non-confidence or anything,is it? AN HONOUP.ABLE ME~ER: Inaudible. MR. BARRY: Oh, it is. Hr.

Speaker, that motion of non-confidence has been hanging over our heads like the sword of Damocles for so long that I had forgotten about it, forgotten that it was still up there. · Mr. Speaker, I am going to find it necessary to.vote against this 1110tion of non-confidence. That may be of some surprise to Your Honour but when I sat down and after much agonizing thought, analyzing the • substance of this motion and I concluded that it was merely another bit of mechanical politicing on the part of the opposition.

We saw the Leader of the Oppositjon on television a couple of days ago talking about how it was time for the House . of Assembly to stop ta1king and to get.down to business and do some work. Still when we go back over the last month or so and look at what has been happening in this honourable House, we find examples such as this, of mechanical devices used by the opposition for no other r~ason than to ensure that the Rou.9e is diverted from the important affairs of government, diverted from being able to get down and do what the people elected us to do.

Instead, we have to waste the time of the House in discussing motions, such as the motion that is before the House today. I wonder if I could get a copy of that motion,by the way. AN P0:·10l'1' ABLE t-'EMBER: A quorum call• Mr. Speaker. MR. BAR~Y: While the quorum is out, could I get a copy of that motion, Mr. Speaker? 3404

.April 8, 1974 Tape 1123 MR. SPEAKER: (MR. STACG): Would the clerk count the House please? We have a quorum. MR. BARRY: Mr. ·speaker, the substance of this motion is that this administration has failed to introduce adequate programmes to lessen the impact of the rapidly rising cost of living, that we have failed to introduce programmes to reduce the number of unemployed and that we have failed ~o introduce programmes to bring public services up to an acceptable level throughout all parts of this province • .A.~ HONOURABLE ME~ER: Could we have a quorum call, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: We have a quorum. MR.

BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I will not raise thi.s matter as a point of order but if I could have a minute just to point out with respect to the question of quorum calls and just to bring it to the attention of the honourable members opposite and ask them to consider whether perhaps they are not, if not flying in the face of the rules of this House, literally they are at least flying in the face of the intent of the rules. I draw your honest attention to Standing Order 80, if I could have a moment here, which says that every member is bound to attend the service of the House unless leave of absence has been given to him.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I would submit to you - again I will not raise it as a point of order, thi$ could perhaps be done at a later time. I ask the members to consider whether this device that has been used by the opposition as we have seen on numerous occasions, generally to - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. BARRY: Relevant to what, Mr. Speaker? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Relevant to debate. MR. BARRY: Relevant to debate. Yes, ~r. Speaker. MR. W. ROWE: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

We are speaking on a debate which is a vote of non-confidence in the government on the grounds of the price rises of foods, etc., on the grounds of no public services, on the grounds of the rising unemployment. Now, the honourable minister says that he is not rising on a point of order. He is rising to just make a general observation which is not at 3405

April 8, 1974 Tape 1123 IB-4 all relevant to the motion under discussion. I would submit, Sir, that he should be ruled out of order for being irrelevant. MR. BARRY: Hr. Speaker, if I could ·speak ' to that point of order. To the contrary, my comments are directly relevant to this motion because, Mr. Speaker, this government is being criticized for failing to bring in programmes which could have the effect of doing certain things. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I am pointing out a reason why if there has been any decrease in the amount of legislation that has gone through this Fouse or any decrease in the number of progral!lffles that we have seen come before this honourable House to be dealt with, I am giving you one reason as to why that has come about.

I am saying it is because of these mechanical, artificial devices that are used by the opposition in a totally hypocritical manner, in a manner that is totally callous, totally unconcerned with the needs of the people of this province and designed for one thing and one thing only, that is to harass this government and to attempt to embarrass this government and to attempt to prevent this government from doing the work that the people of Newfoundland elected us to do. Now, ~r. Speaker, I would like you to rule as to whether or not that is relevant.

AN HONOl'RABLE MEMBER: A bunch of babies. ~- NEARY: May I speak to that point of order, please? ~. SPEAKER (MR. STAGG): If the honourable member wish, he may speak . MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, the whole point of raising the matter of a quorum, Sir, is to try to keep the government members, not - 3406

April 8, 1974 Tape no. 1124 Page 1 not only the govemment members but members on either side of the House but especially the government members, if the quorum happens to be called on this aide of the House, to keep them in their seats. Absenteeism, Mr. Speaker, has been raJ11pant during this session of the House. The Premier has been absent from the House continuously, Sir. MR. SPEAKER (Hr. Stagg): Order please! The honourable member's point has been heard and understood. We are debating the Address in Reply. The debate is certainly wide-ranging. I think it is extremely difficult to be ii:relevant ·• MR.. W. N.

ROWE: It is not the Address in Reply, it is an amendment. MR. SPEAXER (Hr. Stag): The amendment to the Address in Reply, yes. It is extremely difficult to be irrelevant. 1 suggest that the bo110urable member may be extending it to its limit in order to make this irrelevant. However, he is attempting to speak and his speech is being interrupted by the quorum calls. 1 suggest that the honourable member may proceed and make his point,and he is in order. MR.. BARRY: Thank you; Mr. Speak.er. I do not question the importance of having this rule .. in there with respect to a quorum, Mr. Speaker.

All I am saying is that that rule was never intended to be used in situations whereby the opposi~ion, while having members on the other side of the Bouse sufficient to make up a .quorum, get together and conspire to frustrate the workings of this honourable Bouse by combining into a mechanical move to harass the peraon who happens to be speaking at the time by getting in concert, 1 would point out, leaving this honourable Bouse and calling over their shoulders as they go, Quormn! Quormn!

These honourable members on the other ~ide of the House, vacant as they may be and as insignificant as they may be, can still be used, if for nothing else, as bodies to count in a quorum call, Hr. Speaker. That may be the only useful function they perform in the House but 1 would ask them_ to permit us every now and then to use them for that particular function. 3407

April 8, 1974 'I ape no. 1124 Page 2 \ Now, Mr. Speaker, if I could get down to the substance of this amendment, although I find it very difficult to find any substance in it. Mr. Speaker, I would like to give you a few examples of what has been taking place in one of the districts in this province and to indicate just how ridic~lous and how completely false are the allegations contained in this amendmep-t introduced by the Leader of the Opposition. It is alleged, Mr. Speaker, that we failed to introduce programmes to reduce the ,high numbers of people who are unemployed. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I am aware that there are many people in Newfoundland who are unemployed. I reget this very much and our government regret it very much. I do not think, Mr. Speaker, that the people of Newfoundland acceot that this government are not doing anything about that fact. I think that the members opposite merely lose credibility when they come out with allegations such as they are making that there are no programmes brought i~ to reduce unemployment. Mr. Speaker, the Marystown Shipyard, in the District of Placentia West,is an example of how this govemment are det~rmined to reduce unemployment wherever possible.

I do not attempt ta say that this government built the Maeystown Shipyard or had the original concept for it ~ but, Mr. Speaker, I would say that this government have done a lot more than the previous administration to keep that shipyard viable. to keep it goinL to keep it going in the right direction. Hr. Speaker, we saw - the Hon. Leader of the Opposition can say nonsense - the Hon. Leader of the Opposition I understand is going down to the Burin Peninsula soon.

He should have a talk to some of the people down there and he will find out that the Maeystown Shipyard almost went under. 'Ihere ia nobody down there who would de:iy that this was the case. It almost went under,under the lack of leadership of the previous administration. MR. ROBERTS: It was saved by the previous administration, MR. BARRY: Hr. Speaker, it was not saved by the previous administration, 3408

April a, 1974 Tape DO. 1124 Page 3 although I give them full .credit for attracting the services of a mao like John Rannie. There is no quest .ion that John Bannie performed, as it was hoped he would perform and he did a good job,· But, Kr.

Speaker, John Rannie did not do it alone and John Rannie could not have done it if this administration had continued the practice of the previous administration where there were political appointments, where there were political appointees stuffed into the yard, where there were apprentices, three, four or I do not know how many apprentices for each working man in the yard, where there was a situation where politics interfered with the efficient operation of the shipyard, Kr. Speak.er. This is where I criticize the previous administration. Now, Mr. Speaker, there has been a lot of talk in the media and in this .

House about not looking back to the past, about forgetting about the past. Now, Kr. Speaker, I do not accept that. I am going to refer back to the past whenever in my opinion it is relevant to do so. There are a number of different reasons wby I think it is important · that we should refer back to the past, what ~ has happened in the past in Newfoundland, Because, Mr. Speaker, first of all-, reference to the past enables us to compare where we are at the present. It enables us hopefully to determine where we an likely to go in the future. Mr.

Speaker, reference to the past actions of honourable members of this House ia also relevant; acticnu1 .. to the past policies of honourable members. Kr. Speaker, when we analyze what honourable members oD the other side of the House have supported in the past, when we analyze what their present statements · are with respect to policy brought in by this government, then, Mr. Speaker, there are only two inferences; either the honourable members on the other side totally lack sincerity or, Kr. Speaker, they are just ~lain stupid. Now I do not mean to insult them. _MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). Mil.

BARRY: They saw the light. They saw the light. 3409

April 8, 1974 'Iape no. 1124 Page 4 This is why I say that when an honourable member comes out and makes allegations about what this present administration is failing to do and how if he were in government he would do such and such. Hr. Speaker, it is a useful exercise to analyze the conduct of that honourable member in the past. It is a useful exercise, if he were not a member of this House in the previous administration, to question whether or not he supported the policies of the previous administration. Mr.

Speaker, if we find that he is doing a one hundred and eighty degree turn on just about every issue as we find many of the honourable members on the other side are doing, then I submit it is fair game to ask the people of Newfoundland to consider whether the honourable gentlemen are being sincere. Mr.

Speaker, if the conclusion is that they are being sincere, then we have to ask the next question which is: If they are taking this position now, which is a one hundred and eighty degree difference from the position they took a year ago, two years ago, three years ago, why should we put any faith in what they are saying now? They are not consistent. Are they sa¥ing that they were wrong before? Well if they were wrong before, it is a good chance they are wrong now. Mr. Speaker, for this reas0I1, I have no apologies 1n looking back to the past.

I think it i~ a useful exercise and every opportunity I get, I am going to ask these honourable members on the other side to consider what went on in the past in Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker, just look at some of the allegations contained 1n this motion of non-confidence. I refer to the allegation that this gover=ent are failing to introduce programmes to reduce the high numbers of people who are unemployed. MR. NEARY: A quorum call, Mr. Speaker, 3410 ~

April 8, 1974 Tape No. 1125 NM - l MR. SPEAKER (MR. STAGG): We have a quorum. HR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I will just cite you some of the things that are occurring in the District of Placentia West to show you how erroneous are the allegations contained in this motion of non:.confidence. We have, Mr. Speaker, in the last two years we have seen the Marystown Shipyerd under proper management and under encouragement by this goverment and through the co-operation of the management of the yard and this government we have seen the yard c~me to a position where it is making a profit, Mr. Speaker.

We have seen our government recognize this fact, recognize the competent workmanshp and the C!fficient workmanship that -is being done in the shipyard at Marystown and we have seen our government pinpoint this as an area where further benefits can be obtained for the people of Marystown, the people of Placentia West, the people of the Burin Peninsula and the people of Newfoundland generally, Mr. Speaker. We have seen our government decide to expand the Marystown Shipyard, commit itself to expansion of the shipyard at a cost of anywhere from $1. 7 million ··to $2 million, that is initially• Mr.

Speaker,. it was 4!.Stimated at $1.7 million but I am sure that inflation has caused that price to rise now but at least $1.7 million cost and I give credit here, of which $250,000, about one-eighth of the total cost will be borne by the federal government at the ~equest of our administration. Now, Mr. Speaker, this expansion to the Marystown Shipyard, work OD which has already commenced I will increase production at the ~ shipyard from three and a half ships a year to six ships a year. In addition, Mr. Speaker, it means in excess of an additional one hundred jobs at the shipyard. Mr.

Speaker, if that is not something that will reduce unemployment in my particular district then I do not know what will. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is not the only action that ls 3411

April 8, 1974 Tape No, 1125 NM - 2. being taken by our govenunent with respect to the shipyard, to reduce unemployment. We have seen just recently, Mr. Speaker, just a couple of weeks ago,a decision by our government to contract with the Marystown Shipyard for the construction of six trawlers. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am not saying that this is a gift to the Marystown Yard, I am not saying that this is a make-work progra111111e, this is not, Mr. Speaker, The Marystown Shipyard came in at a competitive price on tenders called for these trawlers. But, Hr.

Speaker, were it not. for the imagination of this government, were it not for the decision of this government to construct these trawlers then this is work that the shipyard would not have. As it is, Mr. Speaker, we see the order book of the yard getting to the stage where you have guaranteed employment at the shipyard for well into 1976 at least. This does not count the normal work that the yard will pick up as a matter of course. ~r. Speaker, this again is something that will directly .reduce unell!1)loyment in my district and in the Province of Newfoundland generally.

There are other decisions that have been made by this government that will have the effect of reducing unemployment in my district significantly. For example, Mr, Speaker, we have the five trawlers that are being built at the shipyard for Atlantic Fish Processors, five new trawlers, Mr. Speaker. This deal was negotiated with Atlantic Fish by this government and it was through this government's negotiations, Mr. Speaker, that the ~rystown Shipyard got those five trawlers. MR. NEARY: Who put Atlantic Fish there? MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, those five trawlers not only are they providing employment at the shipyard while being constructed, not only will they provide employment for additional trawler' crews for five extra trawlers', they will also, Mr. Speaker, lead to additional jobs in the processing plant at Marystown. Mr. Speaker, this in turn will as you know, lead to other indirect jobs. I refer now only to direct employment created in one district in this province by decisions .of this government. MR. ~EARY: We really laid the foundation. 3412

April 8, 1974 Tape No. 1125 NM - 3 · MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, if I could pass on to another step that has been taken . and a step that,Mr. Speaker, I do not think has been fully recognized in this province, if not creating jobs at least encouraging people to get out and either find jobs or use their imagination to create their own jobs. Now, Mr. Speaker, I refer to the new Social Assistance Programme that was brought in by this administration. A programme Mr. Speaker, which no longer has a disincentive for people to work. Doing away with the distinction between long term assistance and short term assistance, Mr.

Speaker, is to anybody who has had experience w_ith what was happening a very significant move. What was happening, Mr. Speaker? Well you had a situation where people were qualifying for long-term assistance, validly so because of illness or because of accident or whatever. They were then assured of a monthly cheque coming in regularly. They had security to feed their wife and children or their husband and children, hut they did have a guaranteed annual income, Mr. Speaker.

So you then had a person being very reluctant, being very reluctant indeed to get himself stricken off the roles of long-term assistance,where he might be able to find_.a job but _not a steady job, he might get a job say for a couple of weeks, a month or two months, then when that job was over he would not automatically go back on long-term assistance. He would not go back on long-term assistance at all initially, he would go on short term assistance. He ilo longer had the security of his guaranteed annual income that the long-term assistance provided and therefore, Mr.

Speaker, you .had a situation where people did not have an incentive to get off long-term assistance. They were afraid to take a job because they were afraid they would be able to requalify for assistance once the job was lost, if it were not a very secure job. Now, Mr. Speaker, this new policy, one of the elements in this new policy of social assistance being brought in does away with the distinction between long-term and short-term assistance, 3413

April 8, 1974 Tape 1126 PK - 1 in my mind, in my opinion will mean a great deal towards getting people off assistance altogether, Mr. Speaker. It will go a long way towards having our people get out and to find employmentand---not just to rely on the taxpayers dollar for support. Now, Mr. S?eaker, another allegation in this motion of non-<:onfidence is that this administration have failed to introduce programmes to bring public services up to an acceptable level throughout all parts of this province. Now there could be a hidden hooker here, Mr. Speaker, this could be a loaded sentence.

What is an acceptable level of public service? Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that we will never see the day in Ne\1foundland in our lifetime when we will be able to say there is an acceptable level of public services, that people are· satisfied with the level of public services and are prepared to accept them at that level. Mr. Speaker, here again, this is just a generalization. It means nothing.

This government are determined to bring public services up to as high a level as is possible with the limited financial resources at our disposal. _This is not government money we are talking about,this is the taxpayers money. Mr. Speaker, I would submit that if this administration had not gotten into office when it did, that there would be a much lower level of public services being provided now, Mr. Speaker, because the province was on the rocks, on the brink of bankruptcy, Mr. Speaker, before thi~ administration got in.

You do not bring a province back from the brink of bankruptcy by lashing out money heedlessly without any attempt to detennine priorities and to determine the way in which it can be best spent. Tha't is why I had to lau~h, Mr. Speaker, when honourable members opposite get up and accuse this government of trying to run government as if it were a business. ~r. Speaker, if what they are tryinr, to say there is that there ie no feel for human need, that there is no human element in this government then, Mr.

Spea~er, I say that progra111111es such as our social assistance programne fling that false alle~ation right back into their teeth, Hr. Speaker. If they are trying to say on the ~ A 1 .r1

April 8, 1974 Tape 1126 PK - 2 other hand that you should not run a government in a ,rational manner, determining what the cost of programmes are going to be, determining how· the people~ money will be best spent then, Mr. Speaker, I say that, that statement is total rubbish. It is nonsense. Mr. Speaker, I would take it as a compliment if it be the latter obligation that the honourable members are saying on the other side of the House,that we.are trying to get the best for every dollar that is spent, that we are trying to determine the costs of programmes. MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: What about Nutbeem?

What about nuts? Mr. Speaker, I do not think there 1a any point in trying to beat this dead horse. Thia amendment was dead by the time the Hon. Leader of the Opposition finished stating it. The records of this government, Mr. Speaker, is there for the people to see. It does not do anything. It does not harm this government, Mr. Speaker, for the honourable members opposite to attempt ~to pass over onto the shoulders of this government the failure of their Liberal colleagues in Ottawa to do something about the inflation which is ravishing this country. Not just in Nl!'-foundland, Mr. Speaker, but from St.

John's to Victoria, in every province of Canada, Mr. Speaker, there is a problem. with rising prices, Eith the rising cost of living. MR. ROWE, W.N. Is is worse here though. MR. BARRY: It is worse here, Kr. Speaker, and I give you one reason why it is worse here and it is because of the lack of interest by the bureaucrats in Ottawa in Newfoundland, in the lack of appreciateion of the need for better transportlation services, Mr. Speaker, for lack appreciation for how far we are, Mr. Speaker, from the sources of many of our supplies. A lack of appreciation, Mr. Speaker, - AN HON.

MEMBER: Could we have a quorum call, Hr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: (STAGG): Could the Clerk call the Rouse? We have~ quorum. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, in closing I will give you an example of one programme of this government which will do more to reduce the cost of living than I submit any other programme that any administration have ever broug~t in or that any administration could brinR J.n at the 3415

April 8, 1974 Tape 1126 PK - 3 present time in Newfoundland. That is, Mr. Speaker, the programme which this government have underway to bring power, hydro electric power to the Island of Newfoundland from Gull Island in Labrador. Mr. Speaker, you only have to see the projected cost curve that the financial experts have done, where they have shown,as Your Honour is undoubtedly aware,of how the cost of energy based on petroleum, Mr. Speaker, has gone like this over the last year. This cost curve, Mr. Speaker, will continue to increase, if we continue to rely on petroleum products. But when, Mr.

Speaker, you determine the cost of bringing hydro electric power from Gull Island to the Island of Newfoundland and, Mr. Speaker, to Goose Bay and Happy Valleyand~he Coast of Labrador, which is a necessary part of this programme, Mr, Speaker, when you determine the cost of that power, that hydro electric power brought across to the Island, you will see whe~e the curve has,instead of continuing to rise like this, Mr. Speaker, it drops abruptly and dramatically and levels off at a level lower, Mr. Speaker, than where it is today and continues like that up until 1985,I believe is the date, in the mid-eighties.

Now, Mr. Speaker, anybody who is aware of the many ways in which low.east energy influences the cost of living. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, there are only twenty-four vacant seats over there now. Could we have another quorum call - AN HON. MEMBER: Twenty-four. MR. SPEAKER( STAGG): Could the Clerk count the House please? We have a quorum. MR. BAR.llY: As I was saying, Mr. Speaker, anybody who stops to think will see the many ways in which electricity is directly involved with our everyday life, not just for heating ~omes, Mr. Speaker, but 3416

April 8, 1974 Tape 1127 IB-l for manufacturing articles that we use and that we have to buy and that we have to pay a portion of the cost of the electricity when we I buy that article. Containr.d in the price of every product, Mr. Speaker, that our people buy, is a cost for energy. ~r. Speaker, if we can keep the cost of that ener~y portion down insofar as products manufactured in Newfoundland are concerned, our industry will be more competitive. If we can keep that energy cost dawn, ~r. Speaker, the cost to our Newfoundland consumer will be less. This, ~r.

Speaker, is why, as I said earlier, that this decision to bring hydro electric power from Labrador to the Island of Newfoundland is one of the most magnificant steps that any government could make to recuce the cost of living for our people of Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker, I think that with these few c0111111ents I have given you just some indication of why I find that I am going to have to vote against this non-confidence motion. MR. W, ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was looking over a few notes I put together, like the Minister of Energy put together about six months ago.

I must say, Sir, they no longer make too much sense. I hope I am able to pick some sense out of them as I go through them and to convey some sense to the House. I am afraid the Minister of Energy did not have that advantage. Re could not pick much sense out of his notes when he got up and I am afraid when he sat down he had not picked much sense out of them either. I will try to do a little better if I ean.

Three matters, Sir, contained in the no-confidence motion, prices, the inflationary spiral affecting Newfoundland, Canada generally, Newfoundland particularly,and the lack of action taken by this government to cope with that inflation and the consequent rising prices. The unemployment situation in the province, Mr. Speaker, which has risen under this administration's tenureof office, risen to an all time high, I believe, in absolute terms and probably in percentage as well, in percentage terms as well - 3417

April 8, 1974 Tape 1127 IB-2 AN HONOURARLE Mf:~ER: Not in percentage. MR. W. ROWE: Not in percentage. It was higher at one point in percentage. But numerically the highest that this province has ever reached in numbers of people actively seeking employment who cannot find employment.

This is a legacy of this particular administration as well, and the fact that over the past two years or so this government has an abysmally bad record in providing our people across this province, the Island and the La~rador portion of the province, an abysmally low record in providing public services to these people, communities, areas of the province. Three main things contained in the no-confidence motion: The Leader of the Opposition, I believe, and other members on this side of the Rouse dealt effectively with the prices issue.

The government in its usual squirmy fashion tried to snake its way out of any responsibility vhatsoever for rising prices, tried to blame it all on Ottawa as is their ~nt on everything that affects this government, tried to blame it all on Ottawa, took no responsibility whatsoever for rising prices, none. Other provincial premiers and provincial governments assume responsibility, Sir, and try to do something about it but this government ' no. They lie down like an old dog and roll over, Sir, and say; "We are not respo~ible for this, will not do anything about it.

We will take no action whatsoever on the single most crucial issue affecting the ordinary man and woman in the street or in the home." The single most crucial issue, namely the completely uncontrolled and uncontrollable perheps,for all I know, rising prices in this province, not only across Canada but in this province and to a greater extent in this province than anywhere else perhaps in North America. AN F.ONOl''P~.\BLE ~"'BF.R:_ Trudeau should resigri. ~. SF~RY: It is not T~deau's fault. ~- W. ROWE: Trudeau should resign? IS PO~OL'"P.ABLE "'E'-'BER: Absolutely. 3418

April 8, 1974 Tape 1127 IB-3 ~R. W. ROWF.: I am not sayin~ that Mr. Trudeau and the government in Ottawa are not responsible to a great extent. I will even admit that. But what about if ~r. Trudeau came out and said; "We will do nothing about rising prices, we will do nothinB about unemployment because it is the world situation that is causing it all. We are better off in Canada than they are in Great Britain or in Europe or in the United States," For example; if they took that attitude, Sir,"It is out of our hands," Because to a great extent it is out of their hands, Mr.

Speaker, but they are trying to do something about whatever is under their control, whatever they can do about it within their jurisdiction. This honourable crowd, Mr. Speaker, this honourable government has taken the position that as a government it can do nothing about rising prices. Now, maybe out of the whole pie there is only two per cent that this gove·rnment can effectively deal with. Well, then they should go ahead and do that. I am not trying to blame all rising prices nor does the motion of no-confidence blame all rising prices and the effects of that on this particular government.

What we are saying, Sir, is that this governrnentare not doing their fair share about that problem affecting our Newfoundland people. I am not going to get any further into it, Sir. The Leader of the Opposition~made, I think, all of the points affecting that and the record on that speaks for itself. I think I will concentrate mainly today on the unemployment situation and what the government has not done about it. mostly in terms of federal/provincial programmes, how they have not done their best in that regard.

They might have done their best but they have not done much about it, and on the question of services for our people. The first point, Sir, I want to mention should be dear to the ~inister of Finance's heart. I am delighted to see him in his seat today. It is this question of DREE, the Department of Regional Economic Expansion. 'MR. CROSBIE: Inaudible. MR. W. ROWE: I wish I could afford it, Sir. If the honourable minister would give me a loan of his copious sources of financing wherever they 3419

April 8, 1974 Tape 1127 IB-4 came from. AN HONOllRABLE XENBER: Better not go to Panama; one could get kidnapped. ~IB.. W. ROWE: If I go to Panama, I will get kidnapped. If I go to Florida, I might be assassinated. I do not know what to do, Mr. Speaker. ~Aybe when the ~inister of Finance gees around the world as he does two or three times a year, sometimes at his own expense, sometimes at government expense, he will consent to bring me along as an expert adviser.

The point I am now going to make is on DREE, the Departm~nt of Pe~ional and Economic Expansion,and the abysmal failure once more of the Minister of Finance and his colleagues to really take advantage of that situation, number one,on the one side.and their devious attempt, Mr. Speaker, to mislead the people of this province on DREE and all that DREE has to offer to this province. The ~inister of Finance,when he was speaking in this House on this speech, on this debate, raised the question of DREE and started t _alking about my own role in DREE when I was Minister of Community and Social Develo~ment.

P.e mentioned this General Development Agreement which the Premier signed with Mr. Jamieson with great flourish,and my attack on this government's purveying of wrong facts to the people of Newfoundland in their news releases on that General Development Agreement under DREE. Before I go into that, Sir, I would like ~o mention the drop balance aspect of the DREE agreement, that fact that monies that have come from Ottawa or committed by Ottawa under DREE have not been spent totally by this government or the previous government in the financial year for "Which those monies were in effect.

The Minister of Finance came into the House and said, "I do not know why the member for White Bay South is ... talki:1g about this at all. When he was Minister of Community,and Social Development, the amounts left unspent were far greater than they are now, ~r. Spear_er, far greater than they are now." That may be so. I do not know if it is true. The Minister of Finance has had his little minions and crones down in the depart~ent scurrying around getting these facts. "Ah, we will clobber the member for White Bay South now! Look at these 3420

April 8, 1974 Tape 1127 IB-5 facts that we have dug up," his little gnomes- That :ls what Wilson used to call them, the Gnomes of Zurich - down in his department, Mr. Speaker, going arctmd getting these facts together to buttress the weak argument of the Minister of Finance. So, I do not know if it be true or not. Let me say this that in 1969 when DREE came :Into effect, DREE was a brand new programme across Canada and in Newfoundland. As a matter of fact, when the first estimates were presented to this honourable House, Mr.

Speaker, we did not know, we had no idea at that particular point how much money was going to come from DREE, how much was going to be committed from DREE in the first agreement. Not only that, Sir, all procedures set out under the agreement were completely untried, unproven, no experience at all to draw from, no practice at all from which we could derive some knowledge as to how much money could be spent or how much money was feasible in any given year. Also, Sir, the Department of Community and Social Development like other departments 3421 ...

April 8, 1974. Tape 1128 RH - 1 was simoly a line department. It had no overall authority over the other departments and this was a problem _end a mistake and one which we had hoped to remedy but we were unfortunately, depending on your point of view, flung out of office and this government came into power.

Now, Sir, five years later, five years later the Minister of Finance has the u!l!!liti~ated something or other, probably not par­ liamentary, Sir, what is going through my own mind,but he has the gall to come into this House and to compare,five years later, compare the lack of ability of his administration to spend DREE money with the lack of ability of our administration five years ago in a brand nev untried programme to spend certain amounts of money under DREE.

After five years of experience, after five years of procedures developing, after five years of all kinds of liaison co111111ittees and this, that and the other thing set up in order to expedite financing, he comes in and compares his abysmal lack of success and the Minister of Industrial Development who apparently heads up the committee negotiating with DREE, the lack of success of this government in spending the money under DREE, compares it to the situation five years ago and expects the people of Newfoundland to fall for that, Mr. Speaker.

By now all the bugs should be ironed out . of the DREE Programme in this Province. This government should have no trouble whatsoever, Hr. Speaker, in spending the money which comes to this Province from the Department of Regional Ec~nomic Expansion. Yet at the time when the minister spoke, nearly one half of the money which came from Ottawa for that financial year still remained unspent- Eight or ten million dollars, well over one-third,remained unspent at that particular time. Maybe the Minister of Finance can tell us now how much remains unspent under that agreement. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. w.

ROWE: That would be tellin~, Mr. Speaker, that is right,and there is enough nails already in the minister's coffin. That mi~ht be the final telling blow. Oh, yes! It is all going to come out on 3422

April 8, 1974. Tape 1128 RH - .2 Wednesday, Mr. Speaker. Maybe we will find out about Mr. Saunders on Wednesday and the funny situation affecting him. Maybe we will hear about 82,000 shares of BRINCO transferred days before the BRINCO deal is finally consu=ated, Maybe we will have the Forestry Task Force. Maybe we will find out how much money MacLean is going to get out of the Confederation Day, the Confederation Year, twenty-fifth Anniversay rip-off, $2 million, m~ybe we will get all of that information.

I hope the Minister of Finance is true to his oft-stated, tediously repeated convictions about well honesty in government and giving out information. I hope that he does stick to that in this particular budget speech on Wednesday. In any event, Sir, after five years this government is so hope­ lessly inept and incompetent as not to be able to spend nearly half the money. At the end of the financial year nearly half the money they got from DREE in Ottawa, they have not even called tenders on up to a month or so ago. If that is not ineptitude and incompetence, Mr.

Speaker, I would like Your Honour to describe to me what is. They are not only incompetent, Sir, in spending the money, they are also somewhat inept in obtaining the money, getting the money from OREE to start with. The second DREE agreement when we were in office was signed in August, 1971, nearly three years ago. The second OREE agreement and the first DREE agreement together accounted for $130 million, Mr. Speaker, new money for new projects into this Province. That did not count the Mineral Develop~ent Agreement or incentive grants from Ottawa. The Tory Government, Mr.

Speaker, got into power on January of 1972. They should have signed a third DREE agreement in the spring of that year and that DREE a~reement.if they were going to be consistently following o~r record in office.should have been $60 million but no, Sir, no DREE agreement spent that year nor signed that year. Another full year went by, no third DREE ap,reement was ever signed.· An amendment was signed last year, I believe, at this time or shortly thereafter,for $25 million, $25 million, a year late,an~ even when it did come was less than half 3423

A!'ril 8, 1974. Tape 1128 RH - 3 of what it should have been under the third DREE agr.eement. Sir, to add insult to injury, in spite of the fact that they got only half of the money from DREE that they should have had,they signed a decent,sensible agreement with DREE, after another full year has gone by, we find that fully one-third of the small amount they did get either has no contract called for it, no tenders called for it, no contracts entered into or the money has not yet been spent.

Now, Sir, if that is not a chapter, a book of incompetence and ineptitude, as I said before, I would like Your Honour.to describe what is because that is a dismally poor record in negotiating with Ottawa and getting money from Ottawa to spend for much-needed public.services in this Province, schools, roads, water and sewer ~ystems, the basic bread and butter issues affecting the people of this Province. Now, Sir, this was all done, remember, or mostly done when our minister in Ottawa, Mr.

Jameiso~, one of the most powerful ministers in Ottava,by universal consent, one of the most powerful ministers in Ottawa - The Minister of Tourism would agree with that - Mr. Jameison got the winter games for St. John's over a great political objection in respect of St. John, New Brunswick. There is no doubt about the political clout the man has in Ottawa, Mr. Speaker. Yet; in spite of the fact that we have this powerful minister in Ottawa, Don Jameison, willing and eager to bend over backwards in order to help this Province,with his political clout and power, in spite of the fact that Mr.

Jameison is the very minister of the very department we are talking about, DREE, Regional Economic Expansion, Mr. Speaker, in spite of all that, this government has fallen dOWfl CO'lll'?letely and absolutely on the job of getting some money from Ottawa under DREE. A."i HO~Ot'RABLE ~MEER: Inaudible. !'!R. W. RO\..'E: What is the yahoo from Bonavista South saying, Sir, if you vould care to translate it for me? A.'; HOSOURAELE ME!-IBER: Inaudible. MR. W. RO~ Other ridings have benefited,including the honourable members. 3424 ...

April 8, 1974. Tape 1128 RH - 4 Now, Sir, another year gone by, great hullabaloo, great hullabaloo Mr. Speaker, about a general development agreement some weeks ago. Still. to this moment, no specific agreement sir,ned with DREE yet for either a roads proRramme or a forestry programme which wa~ in the offin~ although I do understand that finally, finally Mr.

Speaker, after months of waiting, years of waiting, this government is finally coming to the point and after all its planning task forces, after all of its great reliance on expertise and rational planning and all this sort of thing, nearly three years later, Mr. Speaker, this government two-and-one-half years later, this government is finally coming around where it can sign a few specific agreements with DREE and get some money to be spent on some necessary things in this Province.

They wonder why,the Minister of Mines was up a minute ago won­ dering why we brought in an amendment of no-confidence in this govern­ ment. That is one reason why, Mr. Speaker. While I am on that subject, I wish the Minister of Finance were here. This general development agreement, there was a great - Oh'. there he is, his beautiful physiognomy appeared in the doorway like a vision, Mr. Speaker. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: The angel of death. MR. W. ROW~: Here he comes, the angel of death, the kiss of death, Sir, certainly to any political party. Mr. Speaker, here he comes.

I want to make my position clear on this general development agreement signed between this government here, I believe represented by the Premier,some weeks ago,under DREE and the Minister of Regional Economic Expansion, Mr. Jameison, I made a point then when that agreement was signed of saying that this government had deceived the people of Newfoundland concerning the fact that they were going to get rid of special DREE areas; DREE areas no longer existed in this Province.

The Throne Speech, Sir, had a reference to it when this present session opened, The Throne Speech had a reference to the fact that DREE special areas were going to be done away with. A release was put out by Mr. Jameison and the Premier 3425

April 8, 1971., Tape 1128 RR - 5 which is a pecul iar kind of release if Your Honour have had the opportunity of r eading it. It is sort of disjointed . !fr. Jameison says this and Permier Moores says this . The Premier not ed, the Premier now, not Mr. Jameison, the Premier noted the ~ain impetus for the a~reement for thjs Province came from the work of the Provincial Planning Task Force.

Then he goes on to say, "The new a~reement provides for the establishl:lent of numerous subsidiary agree:r.ents to undertake broad and flexible programmes related to the social and economic development of the Province." In addition, Mr. Speaker, he says, the Premier now in a release to the general public says, "Unlike previous a~reements which 3426

April 8, 1974 Tape No. 1129 tended to be limited to special areas, the new agrP-ement may apply to any part of the province including Labrador.'' NM - 1 Now, Mr, Speaker, looking at that as an ordin~ry individual anybody who has heard that or read that, unlike previous agreements which tended to be limited to special areas or sectors, the new agreements may apply to any part of the province includinit Labrador . That is the Premier's release, his own publicly uttered words. Members on the government side of the House have risen one after the other, Mr. Speaker and said, "Hallelujah for this government!

We have done away with special areas." I was on a television programme with the honourable House Leader on the government side in which he stated publicly, "Hurrah! We are not like the old government which had special DREE areas. We have done away with special areas." I believe he even said it in this House, although I am not sure on that point, Government members, publicly and privately have been stating that the DREE special areas are done away with and have given the impression to this province, to everyone in this province, that everybody stands on an equal footing. _Now, Mr.

Speaker, I suspected and so did my colleagues at the time, that this was a cheap attempt to try to make political points or political marks in this province at the expense of the truth. There was mention of $100 million at the same time so the general impression given to tlre p~ople of Newfoundland was that here special areas had been done away with, all communities and areas in this province stand on an equal footing with every other place and that there is $100 million a year to be lashed out by this government as a result of the largess of Ottawa under DREE alone.

We suspected a certain amount of deception on the part of this government, Mr. Speaker, in making that kind of an asertion, that kind of a public statement to the people of Newfoundland. So S:Jr, I as a member of the House somewhat familiar with the DltEE prograrmne, decided I would try to smoke the government out. I put out several releases over a period of a week or so in which I said if the government statement means anything it can only mean that 34 2-, ,

April 8, 1074, Tape 1129, Page 2 -- apb there are no more special areas in this province, that everybody qualifies, every community qualifies equally for DREE help for public services such as schools, highway construction, water and sewer systems, industrial development parks and all that sort of thing. That is what I said, Mr. Speaker. If the government statement means anything, it can only mean that. As a result of that release I got all kinds of flak from different members of the government.

Then I decided, Sir, that I would once more try to set the record straight in the public eye and try to call the bluff of this government. I therefore sent out a letter,referred to in sneering terms by the Minister of Finance, sent out a letter to every single council in this province. Nearly 300 of them,dated February 12, 1974. I stated; "Your Worship:" A letter signed by myself, in my own hand. It was not just typed nor zeroxed nor anything like that it was a personal letter sent out to every single council in which I said: "The government" - AN HON. MEMBER: The honourable member made a fool of himself. MR.

W.N.ROWE: Made a fool of myself? Mr. Speaker, you should see the letters on my desk in th~re, which I will bring into this House when the estimates come through in order to see what kind of a deception this government practiced on the people of this province. I said, Sir; "Your Worship: The government have announced that there are no longer any DREE special areas in this province:• (If they did not announce that, Mr. Speaker, I do not know what they announced. ~ . Everyone of them said it.) The DREE special areas had been done away with so I conveyed that information to the people of Newfoundland.

"The government have announced that there are no longer any DREE special areas in the province. This announcement" I said, (and I sent it as a member of this House and I stand by that letter) "Can onlv mean that every town and co111111unity now stands on a completely equal footing in- getting money .for OREE projects such as water and sewer systems, road construction, paving, schools and so on. I am therefore calling, as a member of the House and as the opposition spokesman on matters 3428

April 8, 1974, Tape 1129, Page 3 -- apb concerning OREE, I am therefore calling upon every town council and every community council in the province to contact immediately the Minister of Municipal Affairs who is with us now'(and I named him)'the Minister of Highways"(and I named him)"the Premier (and I named him)' to get commitments now for municipal services and other projects needed in their areas. '' The provincial government can no longer say they have no money for these things. With $100 million a year available to · the province!' 1 never made that public, Mr.

Speaker, this was made public at a famous news conference held in the city. I never dreamed up that figure. AN HON. MEMBER: Who dreamed it up? MR. W.N.ROWE: I do not know who dreamed it up. AN HON. MEMBER: Who said it? MR. W.N.ROWE: I do not know who said it. It came out of this news conference, $100 million. "With $100 million available to the province and with the announcement that DREE special areas have been done away with" Who said that? The Premier of the Province. AN HON. MEMBER: Who was at the conference? MR. W.N.ROWE: Mr. Jamieson and the Premier were at the conference. AN HON. --MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR.

W. N • ROWE : Well, I do not know if he did or not. I did not hear him demur, did l? The honourable member did not hear him come out and say what Mr. Jamieson just said about $100 million. Absolutely untrue. I for one am willing to take Mr. Jamieson's word for it that there is $100 million a year to come into the province under DREE. If the government do not chose to do that, then that is their problem. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. W.N.ROWE: The honourable member will have to take his word for it. Certainly the Premier is the one who came out and said; "No more special areas." What does that mean?

If there are no more special areas there are no more special areas. Everybody is the same. Everybody is to be treated equally. If it do not mean that, Sir, 3429

April 8, 1974, Tape 112S, Page 4 -- apb then I should suggest that the grossest kind of deception has been perpetrated by every member of the government who has not set the public straight. I say, Sir, that with the $100 million a year available to the province as announced and with the announcement that DREE special areas have been done away with, there can now be no reason why every community should not get immediate commitments for full municipal services and other services to be constructed within the next couple of years. What is wrong with that?

"I urge your council as well as every other council in the province to demand your fair share of this DREE money and to insist on getting a commitment from the govemment now, before the budget is brought into the House of Assembly." Because I know the cheap tricks that are played, Sir, on councils that are coming in looking for money.

What happens is this: They come into the Minister ·of Municipal Affairs or the Deputy Minister or the Minister of Highways and they all say to the councils; "Well, we cannot give you a commit~nt now, we do not know what is going to be in the budget." Off go the councillors, back home again,saying: "Well, _.we will find out when the budget comes down." The budget comes down, Mr. Speaker, the estimates come into this House, we ask the Minister of Highways or Municipal Affairs what communities are going to be paved or get water and sewer systems this year and they refuse to divulge to this Rouse.

Is that not the record of this government since they came into the House two and a-half years ago? It is, Sir. So I said to communities throughout 'this province; "I urge your council as well as other councils to demand your fair share of this OREE money and to insist on getting a commitment from the government now, before the budget is brought into the Rouse of Assembly." Then we could not have the Minister of Finance saying; "Well, boy, we did not know about your need. We brought the budget in. We do not have money committed for that now." He would not be able to be heard to say that nor any other 3"430

" April 8, 1974, Tape 1129, Page 5 -- apb member nor minister in the government. Sir, not wanting to mislead the people, because I suspected the worse kind of deception was being perpetrated on them, I put in this letter; "I sincerely hope that the provincial government did not raise hopes falsely when they announced that special areas were to be done away with. I sincerely hope that the people of Newfoundland and their councils, who all have the impression that every community in the province now stands on an equal footing with regard to DREE money, are not let ·down by this government.

The only way to find out for sure is for councils to demand commitments from the government now. '1 Take the government at their word, in other words, Mr. Speaker, a shameful thing. The government have made an announcement: "Special areas done away with. $100 m.:Ulion a year." "Take the government at their word." I said, ~'And get your commitments now." I also said; "If you wish to do so, please do not hesitate to send us copies of your proposals to the government for DREE projects.

We will certainly do everything in our power to demand publicly that the government keep their commitments to the people of Newfoundland." Then I ended up that letter. After sending that letter out,the.Minister of Municipal Affairs, particularly, came into this House, Mr. Speaker, as if he had just been struck by a bolt of white lightening. He came in here with a hastily prepared press release in which he said every­ thing. He accused me of misleading the people of Newfoundland. I did not, Sir. I forced t.his government to tell the truth to the people of Newfoundland.

We had this release, draft press release or ministerial statement is the title of it, given by the minister in every attempt made to try to keep me from replying to it at the time, because they knew they were caught in a vice. They had to come out and try to save the day for themselves. When that release came out, Sir, I then wrote another letter to the three hundred or so councils in Newfoundland and Labrador. Another letter. This letter was dated February 22nd., ten days later, following the press release 3431

April 8, 1974 Tape 1130 PK - 1 or the ministerial statement by the minister wher~ he had suddenly realized that - not himself personally but his government had deceived the people of Newfoundland, that he was now going to have a barrage ~f requests from the people of Newfoundland that they surely invited when they said, "Special areas were done away with." We are going to have this barrage.

They had to save the day somehow, so he came out with a ministerial statement in which an unprecedented thin;>, was done, a member of the House, namely, myself,was attacked by the minister in an attempt to save the day for his department and his government. I sent another letter, Mr. Speaker, which I have no fear at all to read into the records. In my letter of February 12, Mr,. Speaker, I said - in my letter of February 12, 1974, I wrote to the councils, I said that I sincerely hoped that the provincial government did not raise hope falsely when they announced that DREE special areas had been done away with.

As a result of my letters to councils the government have been forced, and I chose that word carefully, Mr. Speaker, the government have been forced to give the people of Newfoundland the real story. If the Minister of Finance or any member of the government think that that':is politically, , Sir, or partisan politics being practised by myself, I would dispute it. I was interested merely in trying to get the facts home to the councils of this province.

The Minister of Municipal Affairs,! said in this letter,was forced to make a ministerial statement in the House of Assembly on February 18, in which he said that public services will be provided under DREE only where such services relate to specific development opportunities. In other words, I said, Sir, in my letter, the municipal services will only go into and I have in quotes, for the humourous effect of it, "Will only go into development op-portunity areas. It is clear therefore that there will be special areas but the provincial government will be calling them by a different and fanc~er name.

Nothing is clearer than that, Mr. Speaker. 3432 -f'

April 8, 1974 Tape 1130 PK - 2 It has now turned out that the announcement by the provincial government th.at specjal areas were to be done away with was an attempt to mi$lead our people. 11 As I referred in my earlier letter to you, the government did raise hopes falsely and now councils have been letdown savagely." In his same ministerial statement the minister was also forced to admit that in sJite of thP. fuss that government members have been making about $1 million a year from DREE, thereby raising hOl)es and expectations all over the province, the actual amount that DREE is in fact prepared to spend on water, sewerage and highway works will be very limited.

That is a statement made by the Minister of Municipal Affairs when he came into the House with his ministerial statement. When the truth was forced from the government they had to admit that they cannot hope to meet the demands that will be made by the councils as a result of the government's deception,and I use that word, Sir, advisedly and after consideration. In addition, in my letter, as a result of my letters to the council,the provincial government have also been forced to admit that not one new specific agreement has yet been signad by DREE for the spending o-f one single dollar in this province.

Not one dollar, Mr. Speaker, was forced from the government in the ministerial statement, not one dollar had been committed by Ottawa to this government for spending in this province under that general development agreement which was just an umb~ella agreement, not one dollar had been committed, in spite of the fuss and the hullabaloo and the publicity given to it by the Premier and all the other meIJJ.bers and ministers who spoke in support of it.

I said in my letter, Sir, that I am personally disgusted at this turn of events but at least now the councils and people of our province have a better idea where . they stand with this government. They can make up their own minds as to whether or not they have been mislead. From my own experience with DREE and the Minister, Mr. Don Jamieson,! know that Mr. Jamieson is bending over backwards to help 3433

April 8, 1974 Tape llJU .t'K - .J this province, with federal money. If only the provincial government would take advantage of what DREE has to offer and negotiate good agreements for our province, instead of violently attacking the government in Ottawa. at every opportunity, we would be all much better off. I then urge the towns and community councils to keep the pressure on the government to get their just desserts, l1r. SpeakC?r, under the DR.EE agreement that was initially announced by this government.

So what does it all amount to, Sir, the savage attack by the filnister of Finance and myself, the attack by a minister in a ministerial statement when he knew there was no opportunity for any of us here to reply in debatel What does it all mean, ~r. Speaker? The hullabaloo about the general development agreement, what does it all mean?

It means this, Sir,that in spite of the fact the government had said that special areas are to be done away with, they still exist and that any infrastructure,water, sewer, industrial development grants, not grants for industrial parks, school construction still have to be related as they were under the old agreements, have to be related to an industrial development that is going on. There are still special areas,in effect. It amounts to the fact.as the minister admitted in the House, $100 million is not available.

A certain amount, not much for services, as the minister said in his ministerial statement, and no specific agreements to spend one cent of moneyhave been signed by this government up to now, although the rumblings are that in a matter of days there may be some agreement signed,and I certainly hope so. in various areas in the province.

My second letter, Sir, my first letter called this government's bluff. ~y second letter to the councils tried to put the thing in perspective and to shou that they should not be misled by this m!sch!evous attempt to make cheao political points at the expense of the peo?le of this province. Then the Minister of Finance accuses me of trying to deceive the people of Newfoundland. 'The worst example in history'says the Minister of Finance."of political deceit.• Well if my attempt were political deceit, I would say it was political realism, trying to bring home to the people of Newfoundland the 3434

April 8, 1974 Tape 1130 PK - 4 brutal reality that not everything that this government tried to get acro~s to them was going to be available. If there were any deception, Sir, it was on the part of this government. It was not to this House. Very little had been said to this House and the members I do not believe were deceived , except as members of the general public, they were deceived by the public statements made by this government.

I am personally pleased with__ the role I have played in trying to straighten this matter out in the peoples minds and to make sure the people are down to earth, that their expectations are not raised beyond realistic level and tha~ they know the kind of government that they have been dealing with. That, Sir, I believe is enough on the Area (3). We will get into other aspects of it when the estimates come into the House.

I did want to set that matter straight for the record and not to allow the Minister of Finance- I am sorry that I had spoken so long after he spoke in the House,but not to allow the Minister of Finance to get away with what he did get away with - trying to throw the deception asr,ect of it over on me rat.her than over on his own colleagues where it belongs, not the Minister of Finance.because I happen to know or I believe anyway t~t he was disgusted as well at the way this thing was handled.

The ,raud, I suppose,for the want of a better word,that was perpetrated on the public, under this general development agreement, be was disgusted at it. I am sure he was. He does not have any desire to raise peoples expectations, if anything he wants to dampen down and try and make people take a realistic view of their needs in the province, vis-a-vis the amount of money available to them - not raise them by this nonsense about hundreds of millions dollars a year coming in, everybody, every little couununity in the province is going to have its own share of the DREE money, not to do that, Mr. Speaker.

He wants to dampen down this type of enthusiasm and I do not blame him, as Minister of Finance, I do not blame him for trying to do that. So I am sure he was disgusted! as well at the way this was overplayed. 3435

April 8, 1974 Tape 1130 PK - 5 Sir, this is one programme in which the government since it got into power has made a miserable job of it. Let us look at another programme for which I had some res9onsihility as the Oppositio n's spokesman,namely: Justice,and I am glad to see that the ~!inister of Justice is in his chair today. What has not been done, Sir, in the Deoartment of Justice .or under the gene ral icea of justice since this government got into power? Well, Sir, you na~e it and I am sure that it 3436

April 8, 1974 Tape no. 1131 Pagel - MW has not been done. Any matter that you would care to name under the aegis of the Department of Justice, you name it, Sir, and it has not been done. Over two years ago or two and one-half years ago, I 1 as Acting Minister of Justice, wrote the then Minister of Justice in Ottawa in which I said that this province wants a court of appeal. It is the only province except one which has no court of appeal. 'Tnis province wants a court of appeal, As a matter of principle and justice, we should have a court of appeal.

We should not have appeals being heard by brother judges of a supreme court j-udge who heard the case to start with, We should not do it. It does not look good and justice may suffer as a result. I asked, as the exponent of the then administration, the Minister of Justice in Ottawa to consider the unanimous request of the Law Society for a supreme court judge in Corner Brook because of the great distance involved, 500 miles or so between here and Corner Brook, and the great need there was, for the adequate administration of justice on the West Coast,to have a supreme court judge in Corner Brook. Mr.

Speaker, I also asked ~he federal government at th'at time to consider, I believe, the appointment of two additional district court judges, one on the Burin Peninsula, I believe, and one on the Northeast Coast, up around the Bonavista Area. Why? So that the people who had need of justice or access to the courts in this province would not have to travel hundreds of miles,at great personal expense and inconvenience,to come to St. John's or in the case of district court judges to go to Corner Brook or Grand Falls, that they would have access to judges within reasonable driving distance of their own communities.

The presence of judges in these areas would attract lawyers who could give legal advice to people. One of the things which are lacking in rural Newfoundland today is access to good legal advice by people, Half the letters I get in my office are legal matters.involving two constituents of mine. I cannot advise them on it. I cannot take sides between two constituents on a legal matter.Even if I were practicing. law,I could not do that. I would have to refer the~ to a lawyer. 3437

April 8, 1974 Tape no. 1131 Page 2 AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. W. N. ROWE: I tell them there are lawyers in Comer Brook or in Grand Falls. Fifty, sixty, one hundred or . in some cases one hundred and fifty miles away some person has a land problem or some person has a matrimonial problem, a custody problem, who do they go to see? They do not have any money;_ they cannot travel for miles. I wanted to try to bring more access to laws, courts, justice, lawyers and judges to the rural areas of this province and to have a court of appeal in this province.

That is why I wrote the Minister of Justice a letter in December or in November of 1971. What happened, Mr. Speaker? Well what happened was this: We were thrown out of office on January 18,1972. Two solid years went by and nothing.as far as I can understand, nothing whatsoever was done by this government or by the Department of Justice concerning this matter. Mr. Speaker, it is only now in this session of the Bouse that we have some legislation brought in concerning some of these matters. I do not know why the goyernment did not do 11.D.ything about it. There was no need to delay bn the matter.

It was a straightforward, simple matter, legislation which would entail very little debate. There were some talk (I do not believe it) that this administration was waiting for a Progressive Conservative Government in Ottawa so that Tory lawyers could be put on the court of appeal. Now I do not believe that but that ~as the talk aroi.md town here, I do not believe the Minister of 'Justice would want to do that. Well, there was some talk. Now when the election of October, 1972, was held and it looked like the Liberal Government in Ottawa were on very shakey ground and might go out at any minute · and Mr.

Stanfield and the Progressive Conservatives might cou· in - the story is that they were holding back and now that it looks like Mr. Stanfield has very little ch_ance of getting in, Mr. Speaker - AN HON. HEMBER: (Inaudible). 3438

April 8, 19 74 Tape no. 1131 Page 3 MR. W, N. ROWE: I do not want to be sacriligious and compare the Minister of Finance and Heaven in the same breath. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, once it became clear that there was no Tory Government going in in Ottawa, then the government (this is the story now) relented and said, "Look, let us get some legislation before the House and let us get this court of appeal set up." How can y~u speak, Mr, Speaker, when you have t