British Columbia Hansard — Thursday, March 9, 2006 (38th Parliament, 2nd Session) (H0309pm-07) (H0309pm 07)

H0309pm-07

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session, 38th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Thursday, March 9, 2006 Afternoon Sitting Volume 7, Number 7 THE HONOURABLE BILL BARISOFF, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Iona V. Campagnolo, CM, OBC SECOND SESSION, 38TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations .......................................................................................................... Hon.

John van Dongen Deputy Premier and Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...................... Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation .......................................................................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Minister of Advanced Education and Minister Responsible for Research and Technology ........................................... Hon.

Murray Coell Minister of Agriculture and Lands.......................................................................................................................................................Hon. Pat Bell Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism............................................................................... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Minister of Children and Family Development ..........................................................................................................................Hon.

Stan Hagen Minister of State for Childcare ........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Linda Reid Minister of Community Services and Minister Responsible for Seniors’ and Women’s Issues........................................... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Economic Development and Minister Responsible for the Asia-Pacific Initiative and the Olympics.................Hon.

Colin Hansen Minister of Employment and Income Assistance ...........................................................................................................Hon. Claude Richmond Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources .......................................................................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Minister of State for Mining............................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Bill Bennett Minister of Environment and Minister Responsible for Water Stewardship and Sustainable Communities ...............Hon. Barry Penner Minister of Finance.......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Carole Taylor Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for Housing ............................................................................. Hon.

Rich Coleman Minister of Health ......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. George Abbott Minister of Labour and Citizens’ Services .......................................................................................................................... Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General................................................................................................................................Hon.

John Les Minister of Small Business and Revenue and Minister Responsible for Regulatory Reform............................................ Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of Tourism, Sport and the Arts .........................................................................................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Minister of Transportation...........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Falcon LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Official Opposition .........................................................................................................................................................Carole James Deputy Speaker ....................................................................................................................................................................................Sindi Hawkins Assistant Deputy Speaker.....................................................................................................................................................................Sue Hammell Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole.................................................................................................................................................

Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .........................................................................................................................E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant.........................................................................................................................................................................................Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .......................................................................................................................................................Ian D.

Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees ....................................................................................................................................... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk ..........................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms............................................................................................................................................................................. A.A.

Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................................................................Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian ..................................................................................................................................................................................Jane Taylor Legislative Comptroller...............................................................................................................................................................................Dan Arbic

Party Standings: Liberal 46; New Democratic 33 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ..........................................................................Shuswap Austin, Robin (NDP)...................................................................................Skeena Bains, Harry (NDP)....................................................................... Surrey-Newton Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...............................................Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Hon. Pat (L) ..................................................................Prince George North Bennett, Hon.

Bill (L) .....................................................................East Kootenay Black, Iain (L) ..................................................................Port Moody–Westwood Bloy, Harry (L).....................................................................................Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).......................................... Prince George–Mount Robson Brar, Jagrup (NDP)..........................................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L) ..............................................

Vancouver–Point Grey Cantelon, Ron (L)................................................................... Nanaimo-Parksville Chong, Hon. Ida (L) ......................................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Christensen, Hon. Tom (L) ...................................................... Okanagan-Vernon Chudnovsky, Dave (NDP).................................................Vancouver-Kensington Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ..........................................Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon.

Rich (L)................................................Fort Langley–Aldergrove Conroy, Katrine (NDP) ............................................... West Kootenay–Boundary Coons, Gary (NDP) .............................................................................North Coast Cubberley, David (NDP)................................................................. Saanich South de Jong, Hon.

Michael (L) ........................................Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Dix, Adrian (NDP) ..............................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Evans, Corky (NDP)......................................................................Nelson-Creston Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) ............................................................

Surrey-Cloverdale Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ....................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Fleming, Rob (NDP) ...................................................................Victoria-Hillside Fraser, Scott (NDP) ...................................................................Alberni-Qualicum Gentner, Guy (NDP)............................................................................ Delta North Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ......................................................................Comox Valley Hammell, Sue (NDP) ........................................................

Surrey–Green Timbers Hansen, Hon. Colin (L) .......................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Hawes, Randy (L)............................................................... Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Sindi (L) .................................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ..................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Gordon (L)................................................................... Surrey–White Rock Horgan, John (NDP)...........................................................

Malahat–Juan de Fuca Horning, Al (L)................................................................ Kelowna–Lake Country Ilich, Hon. Olga (L)....................................................................Richmond Centre James, Carole (NDP)............................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Jarvis, Daniel (L)........................................................North Vancouver–Seymour Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) .................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Krog, Leonard (NDP)..............................................................................

Nanaimo Krueger, Kevin (L)................................................... Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)................................ Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lali, Harry (NDP)..............................................................................Yale-Lillooet Lee, Richard T. (L).........................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................... Peace River South Les, Hon. John (L)....................................................................

Chilliwack-Sumas Macdonald, Norm (NDP)......................................... Columbia River–Revelstoke MacKay, Dennis (L)......................................................... Bulkley Valley–Stikine Mayencourt, Lorne (L)............................................................Vancouver-Burrard McIntyre, Joan (L)...................................................... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) ....................................................... Peace River North Nuraney, John (L)..................................................................Burnaby-Willingdon Oppal, Hon.

Wally, QC (L)............................................... Vancouver-Fraserview Penner, Hon. Barry (L)................................................................ Chilliwack-Kent Polak, Mary (L) ......................................................................................... Langley Puchmayr, Chuck (NDP)........................................................... New Westminster Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ...................................................................Surrey-Whalley Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ..................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon.

Claude (L)...................................................................Kamloops Robertson, Gregor (NDP) .....................................................Vancouver-Fairview Roddick, Valerie (L)............................................................................ Delta South Routley, Doug (NDP).......................................................... Cowichan-Ladysmith Rustad, John (L) ..............................................................Prince George–Omineca Sather, Michael (NDP)..............................................

Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ........................................ Powell River–Sunshine Coast Simpson, Bob (NDP).......................................................................Cariboo North Simpson, Shane (NDP) ......................................................... Vancouver-Hastings Sultan, Ralph (L) .........................................................West Vancouver–Capilano Taylor, Hon. Carole (L)..........................................................

Vancouver-Langara Thorne, Diane (NDP) ......................................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Thorpe, Hon. Rick (L)............................................................Okanagan-Westside Trevena, Claire (NDP) .......................................................................North Island van Dongen, Hon. John (L)..................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Whittred, Katherine (L).............................................

North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wyse, Charlie (NDP) ......................................................................Cariboo South Yap, John (L)........................................................................Richmond-Steveston LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn ........................................................ Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman................................................Hon. Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum ...............................................................................

Scott Fraser Bulkley Valley–Stikine ................................................................ Dennis MacKay Burnaby North................................................................................ Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds............................................................................. Raj Chouhan Burnaby-Willingdon ........................................................................John Nuraney Burquitlam............................................................................................

Harry Bloy Cariboo North....................................................................................Bob Simpson Cariboo South................................................................................... Charlie Wyse Chilliwack-Kent ....................................................................... Hon. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas ........................................................................... Hon.

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke ......................................................Norm Macdonald Comox Valley .............................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville................................................................... Diane Thorne Cowichan-Ladysmith .......................................................................Doug Routley Delta North........................................................................................

Guy Gentner Delta South...................................................................................Valerie Roddick East Kootenay ............................................................................Hon. Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin ............................................................. Maurine Karagianis Fort Langley–Aldergrove....................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops ......................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson..........................................................

Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country .......................................................................Al Horning Kelowna-Mission ............................................................................Sindi Hawkins Langley................................................................................................

Mary Polak Malahat–Juan de Fuca........................................................................John Horgan Maple Ridge–Mission ......................................................................Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...........................................................Michael Sather Nanaimo ...........................................................................................Leonard Krog Nanaimo-Parksville..........................................................................

Ron Cantelon Nelson-Creston.................................................................................. Corky Evans New Westminster ........................................................................Chuck Puchmayr North Coast .........................................................................................Gary Coons North Island.................................................................................... Claire Trevena North Vancouver–Lonsdale ....................................................

Katherine Whittred North Vancouver–Seymour .............................................................. Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head.................................................................Hon. Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon ..............................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside................................................................... Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North ...............................................................Hon.

Richard Neufeld Peace River South ..........................................................................Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley...................................................... Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain................................................. Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Westwood .........................................................................Iain Black Powell River–Sunshine Coast.....................................................Nicholas Simons Prince George North .........................................................................Hon.

Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................. Hon. Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca .....................................................................John Rustad Richmond Centre .......................................................................... Hon. Olga Ilich Richmond East ............................................................................ Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ............................................................................... John Yap Saanich North and the Islands..................................................Hon.

Murray Coell Saanich South..............................................................................David Cubberley Shuswap ................................................................................ Hon. George Abbott Skeena ...............................................................................................Robin Austin Surrey-Cloverdale ....................................................................Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers.....................................................................

Sue Hammell Surrey-Newton ....................................................................................Harry Bains Surrey–Panorama Ridge...................................................................... Jagrup Brar Surrey-Tynehead .............................................................................Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ............................................................................... Bruce Ralston Surrey–White Rock..........................................................................

Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard .................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview.................................................................. Gregor Robertson Vancouver-Fraserview ...................................................... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Vancouver-Hastings...................................................................... Shane Simpson Vancouver-Kensington ........................................................... David Chudnovsky Vancouver-Kingsway...........................................................................

Adrian Dix Vancouver-Langara.................................................................Hon. Carole Taylor Vancouver–Mount Pleasant .............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey..................................................... Hon. Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena ............................................................. Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill ........................................................................Carole James Victoria-Hillside................................................................................

Rob Fleming West Kootenay–Boundary ............................................................ Katrine Conroy West Vancouver–Capilano ............................................................... Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi............................................................. Joan McIntyre Yale-Lillooet ..........................................................................................Harry Lali

CONTENTS Thursday, March 9, 2006 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... ............................................. 2923 Statements (Standing Order 25 B) .............................................................................................................................. ............. 2924 School bullying D. Thorne Skilled labour recruitment and training D. Hayer Hammond Cedar mill M. Sather Ethel Tibbits Awards J. Yap World Kidney Day D.

Cubberley Safety in agriculture industry V. Roddick Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ......................................................... 2926 Availability of beds in Interior Health Authority facilities N. Macdonald Hon. G. Abbott K. Conroy D. Cubberley Performance bonuses to Partnerships B.C. president Larry Blain J. Kwan Hon. C. Taylor G. Gentner Snowmobiling activities of Agriculture Minister and role with species at risk S. Simpson Hon. P. Bell Forests Minister consultation on forest issues S. Fraser Hon. R.

Coleman Government computer system security H. Lali Hon. M. de Jong Second Reading of Bills........................................................................................................ ................................................... 2931 Public Agency Accommodation Act (Bill 3) Hon. M. de Jong H. Lali Agriculture and Lands Statutes Amendment Act, 2006 (Bill 4) Hon. P. Bell B.

Ralston Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................... 2933 Estimates: Ministry of Small Business and Revenue and Minister Responsible for Regulatory Reform (continued) M. Karagianis Hon. R. Thorpe Second Reading of Bills........................................................................................................ ................................................... 2946 Supply Act (No. 1), 2006 (Bill 7) Hon. C. Taylor J. Kwan

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................... 2948 Estimates: Ministry of Finance (continued) J. Horgan Hon. C. Taylor J. Kwan

2923 THURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2006 The House met at 2:03 p.m. Introductions by Members Hon. L. Reid: We wish to welcome Mr. Dusig Kim to the Ministry of Children and Family Development. Mr. Kim was selected by the Republic of Korea to re- ceive a fellowship for overseas studies. Mr. Kim chose to come to British Columbia, to the Ministry of Chil- d r e n a n d F a m i l y D e v e l o p m e n t , a s h e w i s h e s t o l e a r n more about our services to children and their families. We are very pleased to have the opportunity to pro- vide a learning opportunity for Mr.

Kim and anticipate that we will learn much from him as well. Please join me in welcoming Mr. Dusig Kim to British Columbia. D. Cubberley: In the precincts today, if not here in the legislative gallery with us, is Shelly Johnson, who is an instructor in the school of social work at the Univer- sity of Victoria. Shelly is here today with 21 third-year social work students from the anti-oppressive social work class, learning about the operation of the Legisla- ture. Next year these young people will be practising social workers in many of our B.C. communities.

Their practice mission will be to act on social justice issues through community change initiatives and anti- oppressive social work. Would the members please join me in making them welcome. [1405] R. Lee: In the gallery today we have a group of 30 grade six and grade seven students from Westridge Elementary School in Burnaby North. Accompanying them are some of their parents and two teachers, Jeanette Pitchard and Vi c Austin. Would the House please join me to give them the warmest welcome. L.

Krog: I n t h e g a l l e r y t o d a y , v i s i t i n g u s f r o m Nanoose, are friends of mine, Ian and Lynne Bryce and their two children, Kingsley and Alistair. I must tell the House that Kingsley was named for his late great- grandfather, a veteran of the first war and one of Parksville's most distinguished citizens. Hon. C. Taylor: As I have said many times before, British Columbians are fortunate to be served by the very talented men and women in the Ministry of Fi- nance. I want to take this opportunity to introduce a very special member of our Finance team, Michelle Allen.

Michelle is an analyst whose time is shared be- tween estimates and the economic analyst sections of the Treasury Board staff. Now, that's a significant set of responsibilities, but there is much more to Michelle than that. She also happens to enjoy curling, and it turns out that she is extr emely good at curling. Michelle is a member of the Kelly Scott curling rink. Last weekend at the Scott Tournament of Hearts, Michelle and her teammates thrilled B.C.'s curling fans by dominating the round robin and capturing the Ca- nadian women's curling cham pionship.

That win also means they will now represent Canada at the world curling championships to be held a little over a week from now in Grande Prairie. How do you do three budgets in a year and still find time to prepare for a world-class sporting compe- tition? I'm told it takes good time management, lots of personal discipline, practice , physical workouts and a very supportive spouse. It also takes the support of her colleagues, so it's no surprise that everyone in our min- istry is very proud and supportive of Michelle.

Please join me in expressing our congratulations to Michelle, Kelly Scott and the other members of the team. K. Conroy: It gives me great pleasure today to in- troduce to the House Mr. B ill Gorkoff, who is the president of the Kootenay Columbia Teachers' Union back in the Kootenays. In his other life, he's a math and science teacher at Stanley Humphries, which is where I graduated from. He's in his 36th year of teaching, and he says it's his final year. I think it's really sad for the kids in that area because he's a fantastic teacher, and I know he will be missed.

Would you please help me in welcoming Bill to the House. Hon. R. Thorpe: Today in the House is Mike Reed. Mike is my constituency assistant and has been with me for ten years. Would the House please make him very welcome. M. Farnworth: In the gallery today is a good friend of mine and a teacher from Port Coquitlam. He's a great British Columbian and a great Canadian, so would the House please make welcome Charley King. G. Hogg: We have many of the constituency assis- tants from this side of the House joining us today.

As both sides of the House know, our constituency assis- tants consistently provide us with the assistance and support that we need. We value them greatly. They work so hard to make us look good. For some of us, that becomes quite a challeng e, but they seem to al- ways be up to that challeng e. Would both sides of the House please make our constituency assistants most welcome here today. C. Trevena: With us in the House today is Francis Carlic of the Tahltan First Nation. Francis is an elemen- tary school teacher at Britan nia Elementary in Vancou- ver, just off Commercial Drive.

She works as a first nations resource teacher with students from kindergar- ten to grade seven and has taught for 14 years. She also serves on the aboriginal committee for Vancouver ele- mentary school teachers and sits on the first nations advisory committee for the Vancouver school board. Would the House please make her welcome. [1410] Hon. G. Abbott: A s y o u k n o w , t h i s w e e k i s P h a r - macist Awareness Week, and today we have represen-

2924 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2006 tatives from the B.C. Pharmacy Association joining us in the gallery. They are Marnie Mitchell, who is the executive director; Derek Desrosiers; Susan Ogilvie. Also joining them are three pharmacists from Victoria: Alan Hicke, Larry Thorne and Naz Rayani. Pharmacists are key players in a patient's primary care. Recently we were recently able to partner with them to distribute the new, expanded version of the B.C. HealthGuide .

I'm gratified and proud to tell the House today that they have now recently distributed one-half million copies of that new, expanded health guide to British Columbians — quite an achievement. Pharmacists are now also available after hours to answer questions on medications through our B.C. NurseLine. This is a new service and has already helped hundreds of British Columbians. I would ask that all members of the House join me in recognizing the great work that is done for all British Columbians by the B.C. Pharmacy Association. H. Lali: Visiting us in the galleries today is a friend and a teacher.

He is also the husband of a former con- stituency assistant of mine, and he is also an avid member of the musical band in Merritt called the Dung Beetles. Would the House plea se make my good friend Rickson Ferguson welcome. R. Fleming: In the gallery with us today is a leader in our community of Greater Victoria in the field of education — a good friend of mine, Charley Beresford, who is a trustee with school district 61. Would the House please make her feel welcome. Hon. I. Chong: I would like to further add to the welcome and introduction of Saanich pharmacist Naz Rayani, who is visiting today. Mr.

Rayani operates the Peoples Pharmacy in Cadboro Bay Village and is one of 56 people who recently have been named recipients of the prestigious award, the Order of Canada. He will be receiving that award later this fall. His appointment to the order recognizes a body of volunteer work and communi ty involvement that be- gan almost as soon as he came to Victoria in 1978. He has tireless efforts in local fundraising efforts and has been building bridges across faiths.

Among his most prominent volunteer efforts over the years have been the annual Partnership Walk, which raises money for the Aga Khan Foundation; th e Muslim book fund at the University of Victoria; and various multifaith causes aimed at building bridges between those with different belief systems. I hope the House would offer him another very warm welcome. D. Thorne: It is my pleasure today to introduce one of my constituents in the House. Her name is Lorna Steuer. Lorna and I have worked together in the tri-city Coquitlam area at the women's centre and on women's issues for almost 30 years.

We've become very good friends, and it's an absolute pleasure to have her here. I don't want to make any mistakes today at all. Please join me in welcoming her to the House. C. Evans: There are three wonderful people from Nelson here today. Of course, being from Nelson, they had the good sense to sit on that side so they could look this way. That would be Francine and Michael Chapman, and just down the row there, Helen Sebelius. In order that I make no mistakes while they're watching, I may say nothing at all. Will the House please make them welcome. Mr.

Speaker: Hon. members, today we have two Legislative Assembly employees with us in the mem- bers' gallery. Tony Dambrauskas, the director of Han- sard Services for the past six years, will be retiring this year after 35 years in the public service. Under Tony's leadership, Hansard Services has continued to take advantage of emerging technologies in broadcasting and publishing, including digital audio and webcasting of debates; the broadcasti ng of Committee A from the Douglas Fir Room; and most recently, the podcasting of question period.

Please join me in wishing Tony many, many happy years ahead and thanking him for the loyalty and dedication in serving members and staff of this Legislative Assembly. [1415] Also, with Tony, Jo-Anne Kern recently joined us as the new director of Hansard Services. Jo-Anne is a for- mer employee of the Legislative Assembly of B.C. who, during her many years with Hansard Services, held a number of positions including editor, manager of ad- ministration and deputy chief. Jo-Anne is well known to many of us in the precinct s, and I trust that you will take the opportunity to make her welcome in the days ahead.

Welcome. For those who weren't introduced, welcome. I'm sure most everyone was. So welcome. Statements (Standing Order 25B) SCHOOL BULLYING D. Thorne: I rise in the House today to mark the anniversary of a very sad event, but one that I think it's important for all of us here to remember. On March 11, 2000, a 14-year-old boy named Hamed Nastoh commit- ted suicide by jumping off the Pattullo Bridge. All sui- cides are tragic, but this one was no exception. Hamed's decision to take his own life was tragic because it was so unnecessary.

Hamed, you see, was a victim of school bullying, and it was this harassment which eventually prompted him to end his life. We know this because Hamed left a long letter describing the effect that the abuse had on him. "Every day," he wrote, "I was teased and teased." For example, his schoolmates harassed Hamed for be- ing smart and called him names like "geek." He wrote: "I always acted like it didn't bother me, and I'd smile when I came home, but I was crying inside." Despite his own pain, Hamed wanted to reach out to others. In

THURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2925 his last letter he wrote that he hoped that people would realize how devastating such name-calling can be and that they would stop doing it. Hamed's mother Nasima Nastoh, who lives in Co- quitlam, has honoured his last wish by becoming an anti-bullying advocate. I wish to commend her years of work on this cause today. In fact, this Saturday Nasima will be speaking at an even t called Stand Up for Solu- tions. It's a chance for any concerned member of the public to learn how they can help stop school bullying.

This event is being held in Surrey and includes our MLA Harry Bains. It is the responsibility of each one of us to speak out against bullying when we see it. I hope all in the House will join me now in honouring Hamed Nastoh's mem- ory and in paying tribute to the work his mother has done to end this kind of harassment. SKILLED LABOUR RECRUITMENT AND TRAINING D. Hayer: Success has its challenges, and in this province we have a challenge that is very welcome: too many jobs and not enough people to fill them. That is the benefit of our successful, strong economy. B.C. now leads the countr y.

Construction is boom- ing. Companies are opening. Business and industry are moving here, and that means more and more jobs. Over the next 12 years it is estimated that there will be one million new jobs opening — a job for every student graduating from high school plus 350,000 more jobs. No matter what we do, we can't fill all those jobs. We have to look elsewhere for skilled labour. We have to ensure that there are tools in place so people can utilize their skills and talents. We are investing $400 million to increase training and help people connect with opportunities. Through B.C.

Skills Connect we are helping 30,000 new immi- grants every year to get esta blished here. And to assist the many professionally trained new Canadians who are drastically underemployed — for example, doctors, teachers, nurses, engineers — we are working with the federal government and the professional regulating bodies to reduce the time it takes for accreditation. Plus, we have the provincial nominee program to fast-track the immigration process, to help B.C. em- ployers recruit foreign-trai ned workers to meet our skills shortage and for those who have the ability to start a new business venture here.

For those who need help with English, there is $5 million to enhance our ESL training efforts. We are not only encour aging immigrants. We are providing resources to address our skills shortage so everyone can benefit from the contributions to our long-term economic success. [1420] HAMMOND CEDAR MILL M. Sather: The Interfor mill located in the Hammond district of Maple Ridge has been an integral part of our community sinc e 1910. Since its beginning Hammond mill has been a pioneer in its field. It was the first mill in Canada to employ women, who were primarily hired to grade and load lumber.

The young women performed their tasks so well that the practice of hiring women spread quickly to other mills in Can- ada. During the early 1920s , Hammond Cedar became the largest producer of ceda r lumber and shakes in the British Empire. Drawing on a timber supply as close as Pitt Lake or as distant as Knight Inlet, the mill contin- ued to grow as the years went by. Today it is the largest red-cedar mill in the world. Each year the Hammond mill produces 125 million board feet of cedar products used for exterior siding, panelling, decking and a variety of uses in overseas markets.

The mill adheres to environmental regulations determined by the federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans. Seventy percent of their logs come from Inter- for harvesting. Hammond mill currently employs 270 workers, the majority of whom live in Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows. I recently had the pleasure of meeting with Jack Draper, vice president, and Doug Clitheroe, general manager at the Interfor mill.

The mill, al ong with the rest of B.C.'s coastal industry, is facing some of its toughest chal- lenges to date: debilitating duties imposed by the U.S. government, a high Canadian dollar, increased freight rates and high fuel surcharges. This has resulted in the mill having to employ cost-cutting strategies. I am proud to speak to you today about the impact that the Hammond mill ha s on my community and around the world. I hope that the mill can continue to be a pioneer in its field and get a chance to celebrate its 100th anniversary in 2010. ETHEL TIBBITS AWARDS J.

Yap: This being International Women's Week, I rise to talk about the 13th annual Ethel Tibbits Awards held on Tuesday in Richmond. Named after the social crusader and former owner of the Richmond Review , these awards recognize local women for outstanding contributions and achievemen ts in the arts, business, sports, youth and community. The ceremony is held as a luncheon, and this year's event was once again well attended. The keynote speaker was Ms.

Andrea Shaw , vice president of spon- sorship sales and marketing for VANOC, and $10,000 of the proceeds from this event is donated to Nova House, a safe refuge for women and children. Ethel Tibbits was a pioneering newspaperwoman who started her career as a Vancouver Province re- porter in the 1920s before moving to Richmond, where she married husband Orland Delos Tibbits in 1926. In 1932 she began working at a fledgling newspaper, the Richmond Review . Within a year she purchased it. To- gether, Orland and Ethel ran the paper out of their store called Blundell Grocery.

Orland was circulation manager, and Ethel was editor of the Richmond Review. Ethel was known to be a force to be reckoned with. Week after week she explored the daunting issues of

2926 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2006 the Depression era, writing intelligent and hard-hitting editorials. She was tough, insightful and strong in her opinions. For example, in 1933 she predicted England would join the rising conflict in Europe. In 1942, in a series of editorials, she openly criticized the govern- ment's plans to intern Japanese Canadians. She was ahead of her times and became a legend in Richmond.

Today we honour her memory with these awards, which this week were given to the following five dis- tinguished women: Janice Froese for the arts, Barbara Bell for business, Penny Talbot for sports, Kathleen Hodges for youth and Barbara Tuck for community. I ask everyone to join me in congratulating them on their well-deserved awards. I'm sure Ethel Tibbits would be proud of them and of how her legacy of achievement lives on. WORLD KIDNEY DAY D.

Cubberley: Today is World Kidney Day, the first- ever global event designed to draw attention to the ris- ing incidence of kidney disease and the importance of early detection and prevention. In Canada alone, two million Canadians either have chronic kidney disease or are at serious risk of developing it. While interventions like dialysis and transplantation offer hope to suffering individuals, they come at a tremendous cost to the health care system and they involve high risks for pa- tients.

World Kidney Day focuses attention on the need for screening of populations at risk and on the value of prevention efforts in slow ing the progression towards end-stage renal disease. [1425] People with diabetes or hypertension comprise two significant at-risk populations, and as we know, type 2 diabetes is rising rapidly in British Columbia and across Canada in lockstep with the rise in obesity. It's important not only to map the scope of chronic disease problems but to redouble our efforts to intervene.

Today is the perfect time to applaud one such ef- fort, a collaboration between the Vancouver Island Health Authority and LEO Pharma — an independent, not-for-profit foundation — to create a toolkit compris- ing two educational DVDs and a patient care hand- book. These materials embody the concept that early diagnosis and treatment offer patients a chance to live well by slowing or even reversing the progress of the disease. Released during National Kidney Month, these new tools have already migrated to Australia, the United States and the U.K. We have reason to be alarmed by kidney disease.

In the past year, newly diagnosed cases in British Colum- bia rose by 21 percent. Worl d Kidney Day is a time to reflect on the challenge th is poses and to renew our engagement with population health interventions that can reverse the trend. SAFETY IN AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY V. Roddick: The fertile lands of British Columbia, as you all well know by now, produce the best food in the world. We are proud of this indispensable industry, but we must always be conscious that our farms and ranches are workplaces that demand attention to safety.

On average, 115 peop le are killed and another 1,500 are seriously injured across Canada in farm- related incidents each year. Farms and ranches will never be totally hazard-free, but steps can be taken to reduce risks. That's why Farm Safety is My Business is the theme of the Canadian Agricultural Safety Week, March 8 to 14. This campaign has also been proclaimed by our province. Reducing hazards not only makes the work site safer, it shows employees that farm owners and managers are willing and ready to improve their safety b y m a k i n g i t a n e v e r y d a y p r i o r i t y .

I t a l s o a l l o w s e m - ployees to improve their knowledge and skills in per- forming assigned tasks efficiently and safely, accom- panied by a large dose of common sense. To our valued agricultur al workers, farmers and ranchers, I say SAFER: see, assess, fix, evaluate risk. I would like all members to join me in wishing workers well during Agricult ural Safety Week. Hey, let's make every week Agricultural Safety Week in Brit- ish Columbia. We all have to eat to live. Oral Questions AVAILABILITY OF BEDS IN INTERIOR HEALTH AUTHORITY FACILITIES N.

Macdonald: Yesterday it was revealed that Kelowna General Hospital was operating under code purple. For the information of those in the gallery, code purple means that there ar e no beds available any- where in the hospital. There are no beds in the emer- gency room. There are no beds in intensive care. There are no beds in acute care. Again, the opposition is asking about government cuts to beds. We've asked about it because of cancelled surgeries. We've asked about it because of premature movement of seniors from hospitals, and now today we're asking about it becaus e of the code purple in Kelowna.

Will the Minister of Health admit today that gov- ernment cuts to acute and residential care beds have left regional hospitals with a severe bed shortage? Hon. G. Abbott: I thank the member for his impor- tant question. There are peri odic spikes in demand at emergency rooms in hospitals, particularly hospitals like Kelowna which serve a very large retired popula- tion. [1430] In response to that, Interior Health has done a number of things which I think are entirely appropri- ate. They have expanded the ER, with support from the province.

They have recently added 115 new assisted living units in the community of Kelowna. They've added — or will be adding April 1 — 22 new residen- tial care beds on the fifth floor of Kelowna General Hospital, and certainly that will be helpful. There are

THURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2927 280 more residential care beds that will be built in the central Okanagan over the next two years. All of these steps are entirely appropriate. We are going to be making the capital investment in Kelowna that's long overdue. I think what we're seeing in Kelowna is, again, part of that broad demo- graphic wave that is going to be very challenging for the health care system in th e future, in this province and around the world. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. N. Macdonald: This is not strictly demographics.

It is predictable from the beds that were closed. There were beds closed in Vernon, Penticton, Oliver, Osoyoos, Summerland, Prin ceton and Kelowna. Dr. Ertel, who is an emergenc y room doctor in Kelowna General Hospital, said: "I have been here now for ten years, and I've never seen it as bad as it's been the last six to eight months." The last six to eight months is this minister's watch. The problem is this governme nt's creation. When will the government face up to its mistakes and get to work on finding a solution? Hon. G.

Abbott: I'll take the member and members of the opposition for a little walk down memory lane here in respect of the challenges. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members on both sides, the Minister of Health has the floor. Hon. G. Abbott: This is an

article from the Vancou- ver Province, February 16, 1999, entitled "Kelowna Staggers as Priddy Antes Up." Penny Priddy, of course, was the NDP Minister of He alth in 1999. According to this

article in the Province: "It has B.C.'s longest list of patients waiting for operations, yet surgeons at Kelowna General Hospital did 1,300 fewer procedures than the budget allowed. Almost 4,000 people are wait- ing for surgery at Kelowna General. According to the chief executive officer for the region: 'We're under tre- mendous pressure to get the overflow through, but we are already 42 patients over capacity at Kelowna Gen- eral.'" K. Conroy: We are talking about now. We are talk- ing about what's happening this week in Kelowna, and we are not talking about high-level rhetoric from the minister.

This is a real… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. K. Conroy: …person we are talking about. In fact, it's a person from my cons tituency that this has hap- pened to. As she is being wheeled into an operating room for brain tumour surgery, her surgery is can- celled. Why? Because, her family is told, there are no beds available for her after the surgery. When is this minister going to admit that they have cut too many beds and take responsibility for the lack of beds in the Interior Health Authority? Hon. G. Abbott: I appreciate the member bringing forward this issue.

It would be useful if the member could provide me with the name of the patient and the facility to which she's referring . It's difficult, I think, to comment without that information. Anytime I hear about cancellation of surgeries, I am concerned. Again, I'd like to see more inform ation from the member, and I'm glad to follow up on it. We don't like to see cancellations of surgeries.

Sometimes they occur, particularly in flu season when there's a spike in demand, but typically the hospitals try to reschedule those surgerie s just as quickly as they can so that the patients get the optimal outcomes that they deserve. Mr. Speaker: Member for West Kootenay– Boundary has a supplemental. K. Conroy: It's a real concern to me and members on this side of the House that every time there's a crisis in health care, we have to bring the individual situa- tions to the minister to get it solved.

That incident was reported in the news. [1435] Let's talk about the other people who were can- celled so that we can assure the minister that this is, once again, not an isolated incident. There was an 80- year-old woman that day who was prepped for sur- gery and was told her surger y had to be cancelled be- cause there was no bed to place her in after the proce- dure. It was a gallbladder re moval. She'd been waiting for two years for the surgery. Another patient had been waiting for two years for knee replacements. He has been cancelled twice and was again cancelled.

Another patient went all the way to Kelowna for his surgery — these all are in Kelowna General Hospital — and he had to take the bus back home to Merritt when they were cancelled. All this time the surgeons were ready, the operating rooms were ready and the OR nurses were ready. Every- one was ready, but there were no beds to put these people into after their procedures were completed. Will the minister finally admit th at this government has in the past five years cut too many beds and has put our health care system into crisis? Hon. G.

Abbott: Again, if patients are experiencing challenges, I'm very concerned about it. But again, I would find it extraordinarily helpful if the member would advise me of what hospital facility she's refer- ring to. She hasn't done th at. I presume she is talking about the Kootenay regional hospital in Trail, but I won't assume that. If she is, that regional hospital is doing surgeries today that would not have been done five years ago.

2928 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2006 The Kootenay regional hospital in Trail has been upgraded tremendously. Ther e's been a huge invest- ment made in the Trail regional hospital. I presume the member still supports the location of the hospital in Trail, and I presume that she supports the extensive investment in upgrading the facilities at Trail that has been undertaken by this government. D. Cubberley: I want to try and help the members opposite a little bit with their collective amnesia. You cut beds in Vernon, Penticton, Oliver, Osoyoos, Summerland and Princeton.

You pushed the demand to Kelowna, and you cut residential care beds there as well. Now the ER is gridlocked, and they're cancelling surgeries again. Dr. Ertel said: "We're very concerned we're going to have somebody die in the waiting room. We just don't physically have enough beds to see people." My ques- tion is: when will the mini ster acknowledge the bed crisis caused by his government's cuts, and when will he commit to fixing it? Hon. G.

Abbott: Again, I would remind the opposi- tion Health critic that between the years 1993 and 2000 when the former NDP government was in office, the number of acute care beds in British Columbia fell by 3,334 — a 16-percent decline. The member says beds were closed. Well, in some cases antiquated and di- lapidated facilities were closed. They were closed and replaced by new and modern facilities, often replacing four-bed wards with private rooms.

W e h a v e m a d e a t r e m e n d o u s i n v e s t m e n t o f a b o u t $1 billion in not only improving the lives of the frail elderly qualitatively but also quantitatively. If the member wishes, I can read him a long list of the in- vestments that we have made in all corners of the Inte- rior Health Authority. We 're tremendously proud of that, and as we are adding even more facilities in the future, things will get even better. Mr. Speaker: Member for Saanich South has a sup- plemental. D. Cubberley: You know, I said it was collective amnesia, but in fact, it's motivated forgetting.

Duncan Laidlow, IHA medical advisory chair: "There's ample evidence we're overcrowded. Our hospitals are too full, and we need to do something about it." Dr.

Ertel: "Code purple days are becoming commonplace at Kelowna General, and cutbacks to ac ute care and long-term care beds have put the ER into permanent crisis mode." Hospitals operating at overcapacity, hallway medicine, gridlocked emergency rooms, code purple, cancelled sur- geries, patients hastily discharged or turned away — when will the minister finally acknowledge the crisis caused by cuts to acute care and seniors care beds across the IHA? [1440] Hon. G. Abbott: One of the things that provides a benefit for us now, as opposed to the 1990s, is that we have a tremendously strong economy.

That provides us with some opportunities to do some long-overdue capital improvements and expansions to hospitals, to residential care facilities, to assisted living facilities all around this province. That didn't happen in the 1990s. We are today making huge investments towards capital upgrade, remediatio n, expansion of hospitals like Kelowna, Kamloops, Prince George, Nanaimo — all around the province. We are making huge invest- ments that have been long overdue in this province. I have said on many occasions that we are at the front end of what will be a breathtaking demographic wave moving forward.

At last, a government in British Co- lumbia is making the capital investment we need to meet that challenge. PERFORMANCE BONUSES TO PARTNERSHIPS B.C. PRESIDENT LARRY BLAIN J. Kwan: Yesterday we learned that the government paid top Liberal insider Larry Blain $499,000 last year to run Partnerships B.C. — the same person who helped write the B.C. Liberal platform in 2001. Of that half-million-dollar compensation, $170,000 is for per- formance bonuses. Can the Mi nister of Finance inform this House what specific performance targets Mr. Blain met that would warrant such a rich payout? Hon. C.

Taylor: W e h a v e b e e n d o i n g a l o t o f d i s - cussing of Partnerships B.C. during estimates, and I'm v e r y h a p p y t o b e a b l e t o r e p e a t s o m e o f t h o s e c o m - ments here in the House. Partnerships B.C. was set up as an initiative to really make it possible for the taxpayers of British Co- lumbia to benefit from the infrastructure investments that we are going to make. To do that, we have looked at the P3 model, which brings in private investment as well as public expertise and knowledge so that you have a partnership.

In order to run Partnerships B.C. — in fact, in order to start Partnerships B.C., because it was quite a new idea in Canada at the time — w e h a d t o i n f a c t h a v e someone who had tremendous experience. We are very pleased that Larry Blain is someone with a PhD in eco- nomics, experience in the public sector with the Bank of Canada, much experience in the private sector as well. We're very fortunate that he not only started Partnerships B.C. but has brought it to the level that it is now receiving awards across Canada. Mr. Speaker: Member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant has a supplemental. J.

Kwan: Well, by Partnerships B.C.'s own admis- sion, taxpayers won't be able to judge their perform- ance until years down the road. Let me quote Mr. Blain's senior staff: "The true final measure of value for money can't be made until that concession agreement is actu ally completed." That's a 33-year agreement. So to the Minister of Finance again: if taxpayers have to wait 33 years to find out if they got value for money, why doesn't Mr. Blain have to wait 33

THURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2929 years, as well, before he gets his rich performance bo- nuses? Hon. C. Taylor: In fact, no one has to wait any time at all, because the value-for-money reports are in the public domain. One of the advantages that Partner- ships B.C. has shown to the people of British Columbia is that they do work in a very transparent and account- able way.

These reports are available on the Internet, and the value-for-money reports have looked at a number of projects — for instance, the ambulatory care project at Vancouver General, which will result in sav- ings to the taxpayers of B.C. of $13 million. The value-for-money report, for instance, on Ab- botsford hospital, which is going along so well — and the people of Abbotsford are so pleased that it now includes the cancer centre — is going to in fact result in savings of $39 million.

The Sea to Sky project — and anyone who has driven that highway knows how suc- cessful that is — will result in benefits to the people of British Columbia of $131 million . This is true value for money. [1445] G. Gentner: I hear the minister talk about transpar- ency within Partnerships B. C., and I have to say this. This sweetheart deal would make David Dingwall blush. Imagine if in business they handed out perform- ance bonuses before the start of every fiscal year. Can the Minister of Finance expl ain why she is letting Mr. Blain win the ultimate Liberal inside lotto without even checking his numbers? Hon. C.

Taylor: I do understand that the opposition doesn't like the P3 mode l and Partnerships B.C. — I've had four days now of hearing about this — but in fact, i t i s a n i n n o v a t i v e w a y t o h e l p t a x p a y e r s b e s u r e t h a t the projects we build will be on budget and will not be the disaster that the fast ferries were when the opposi- tion was in government. The contract that Mr.

Blai n signed at the beginning specifically had an area for performance bonuses, be- cause it is critical that we do treat this as a proper busi- ness and respond in the way that the private sector would to encourage that targets be met and merit be awarded, and that's what his contract does. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. The member for Delta North has a supplemental. G. Gentner: It's interesting that the minister wants to move from fast ferries to fast cats. Or is it fast… An Hon. Member: Fat cats. G. Gentner: …fat cats? Big, fat cats. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members on the govern- ment side.

G. Gentner: The fact is that there's no way of tell- ing… Mr. Speaker: Member. G. Gentner: …if Mr. Blain is getting value for money. Mr. Speaker: Member, just wait until we get some quiet. Continue. G. Gentner: The fact is that there's no way of telling if Mr. Blain is getting value for money. The Finance Minister just wants us to take her word for it. Will the Minister of Finance just do the right thing and commit to withhold Mr. Blain's fat bonus until taxpayers know what they are getting in return? Hon. C.

Taylor: The taxpayers of British Columbia know for the first time what they're getting with these infrastructure projects. They're getting value for money, and part of it comes from the…. [Applause.] SNOWMOBILING ACTIVITIES OF AGRICULTURE MINISTER AND ROLE WITH SPECIES AT RISK S. Simpson: We know that a key aspect of the threat to a number of species including grizzlies, mountain caribou, wolverines and others comes from the expansion of motorized recreation, including snowmobiling.

Responsibility for species at risk rests with the Minister of Agriculture and Lands, and we know the current minister has been a member of the Prince George Snowmobile Club — an active supporter of that sector, including lobbying for greater access to Kakwa Provincial Park an d supporting the Prince George Snowmobile Club to secure $80,000 of govern- ment money for facilities. Can the minister confirm his involvement in recrea- tional snowmobiling…? Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members on the govern- ment side, please. Continue. S.

Simpson: Can the minister confirm his involve- ment in recreational snowmobiling, including repre- sentations to government, and can he tell us whether he is concerned about the clear contradiction between these activities and his responsibilities for species at risk? Interjections.

2930 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2006 Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. P. Bell: You know, I guess the member oppo- site isn't on my Christmas card list, because my Christmas cards this year showed me on a snowmo- bile. So I'm sorry this is news to you. Contrary to popu- lar belief, actually, there are thousands of people in this province that enjoy snowmobiling and other motorized activities. But let's think abou t species at risk and, spe- cifically, how you encourage the ongoing development of scientific plans around that. [1450] It's about land use planni ng.

It's entirely appropri- ate that the Ministry of Agriculture and Lands would have responsibility for developing species-at-risk strategies. We rely on science. You know what? Let's just take a look at the north coast and central coast land use plans that we just re- leased. There's a whole bunch of very interesting inter- national dynamics that have come out of this. We have a whole list of international publications that have identi- fied the north coast and central coast land use plan, which came out of this ministry, as a key piece of work.

There's one particular publication that I would like to point to, and I'll do that in a moment, because I have a sense that I'll have another chance. S. Simpson: It's true that thousands of British Co- lumbians are members of snowmobile clubs, but only one of them is the minister responsible for species at risk. This is a very serious situation. British Columbi- ans are concerned about the real…. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. Could we listen to the question so that we can get the answer. S. Simpson: This is a serious situation.

British Co- lumbians are concerned about the real or perceived conflict of the minister, particularly when he's respon- sible for new species-at-risk legislation that this gov- ernment says it's going to pursue in its strategic plan. How can British Columbians have confidence in that process when the minister responsible for spearhead- ing the legislation has a bias and has demonstrated interest in promoting snowmobiling? I'll ask the minister: will the minister recuse himself today from all matters related to species at risk, including any participation in the drafting of new legislation?

If he won't do that, will he tell British Columbians how they can have any confidence in the upcoming legislation when the minister responsible has such a clear conflict? Hon. P. Bell: It sounds to me like the member is actually suggesting that snowmobilers don't care about the environment. I'd encour age him to just come out and say that, because there are tens of thousands of snowmobilers who are in fact very, very concerned about the environment and the way they impact it.

I w a n t t o g o b a c k t o w h a t I w a s r e f e r r i n g t o h e r e , which is the north coast–central coast land use plan, which is probably the most significant thing that this government or almost any government has ever done to protect the environment, the spirit bear. It's truly a historic event, I think, in the lives of British Columbi- ans. Let's take a look at some of the international inter- est that came about as a result of the north coast– central coast land use plan. In fact, it made the front page of the Washington Post, perhaps not a publication that the members opposite read.

It made the front page of the New York Times . It made the front page of the Seattle Times, the Boston Globe, Forbes, ABC, CBS. I sup- pose members opposite don't read those publications, but perhaps here's one that they would recognize. It also made the front page of The Moscow Times. FORESTS MINISTER CONSULTATION ON FOREST ISSUES S. Fraser: On Tuesday in the House, the Minister of Forests and Range stated: "I've met with any organization that wanted to sit down and discuss the coast with me over the last nine months.

Th at process is going to con- tinue." Then the minister would not commit to meet with the residents of Sandspit. Yesterday I asked the minister to agree to meet with the workers, concerned citizens and residents of Port Alberni. Again the minister evaded the request and would not make that commitment. My question is to the Minister of Forests and Range. Why would the minister tell this House that he would meet with any organization that wanted to meet with him and then refuse to meet with these coastal communities? Hon. R. Coleman: Before I respond to the question, I should declare a conflict .

I live in a wood-frame house. It has wood floors, wood baseboards, wood crown moulding and wood bookcases. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members, listen. Hon. R. Coleman: I told the Alberni News this morning that I am going to attempt to get up to the Alberni Valley in the two-week break during the month of April, because that is the first opening in my schedule. I advise the member of that right now. [1455] Mr. Speaker: Member for Alberni-Qualicum has a supplemental. S. Fraser: Thank you, hon. Speaker. Pinch me. Well, I would like to thank…. [Laughter.] Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. S.

Fraser: I would like to thank the minister for that. It is good to see when community activism and the

THURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2931 work we do here in question period can produce a po- tentially positive result. There are issues of the en vironment, of sustainabil- ity, of jobs and job loss and compensation that must be addressed. So will the minister commit to making sure that this is a meaningful consultation and that the min- ister will be prepared to look at things like the 150 Franklin Division workers who have not been compen- sated through the Forestry Revitalization Act? Hon. R.

Coleman: To the member opposite: I guess he can define in his mind what would be meaningful, and I will define it in mine. I intend to try and make the best use of my time while I'm in the area — to review everything from forest practices to environmental issues to watershed — to deal with some of the issues that are facing us with regards to some of the operations out there. I also intend to meet with workers — actually, in other areas of the province as well — which I've been doing. But let's be clear about something. I said it yester- day, and I'll say it again.

When you're talking about forestry, remember that there are jobs where people actually work in the bush. Some people maintain the equipment, some people operate the equipment, and some people actually cut th e trees. Some people actu- ally move the trucks and move the lots. All of those are jobs. All of those are jobs that actually support families in your communities, and I think it's important to un- derstand that forestry has to coexist with that and the manufacturing sector and the economies that affect the wood markets in the world.

Hon. member, that's what we're going to work for — a coordinated approach to forestry in British Columbia. GOVERNMENT COMPUTER SYSTEM SECURITY H. Lali: Yesterday we asked eight serious questions of the Minister of Citizens' Services on the breach of security of personal information. When people give their most sensitive and personal information, they trust that the government will keep it safe and secure. At no time did this minister show any seriousness for British Columbians' concerns. Instead, the minister has been disrespectful of this House and of British Colum- bians.

At no time did the mini ster tell this House, as he did outside the House, that hackers had stored porno- graphy on the government server. My question: will the minister finally give this issue the seriousness and respect it deserves? Why did the minister deliberately choose not to inform this House that foreign hackers had broken into the government computer servers and stored pornography on them? Hon. M. de Jong: I must confess that I am baffled by the nature of the question the member brings to the floor, because we did have an extensive discussion. We talked about the security measures that are in place.

We talked about the fact that attempts had been made, that material had been deposited, that the RCMP had been contacted and were investigating the people re- sponsible for that. Now, perhaps the member would like me to come before the House and lay out in detail, for the whole world to see, the precise nature of the safeguards we put in place to protect British Columbians. I got news for him. That may be his approach to safeguarding British Columbians' privacy; it's not this government's. [End of question period.] [1500] Orders of the Day Hon.

M. de Jong: In Committee A, Committee of Supply, and for the information of members the con- tinued estimates of the Ministry of Finance. In this chamber, Committee B, second reading of Bill 3. Second Reading of Bills PUBLIC AGENCY ACCOMMODATION ACT Hon. M. de Jong: I do move that Bill 3 be read a second time now. This is what I'd like to say about the bill that's be- fore the House.

Its purpose is straightforward — al- though significant, I must say — in terms of the struc- tural alignment of government and particularly that part of government that is responsible for the man- agement, purchase and sale of realty assets that are a key part of housing various services that government delivers. Bill 3 repeals the British Columbia Buildings Cor- poration Act. It dissolves that Crown corporation, and it transfers its assets and it s obligations to government. It gives back to the government rights and powers similar to those that were exercised by the corporation.

For the information of members, most of whom I think understand this, the co rporation came into being in the mid-1970s and at that time assumed responsibil- ity for the functions that I have just related. The bill accomplishes the transfer of BCBC's operations to the Ministry of Labour and Citizens' Services. This is in furtherance of an announcement that was made by government in July of last year. Integrating BCBC's accommodation and real estate services into the ministry is, for us, a key building block in enhancing the government's approach to shared services.

It will, in the government's view and in my view, enhance efficiency gains. It will lead to service delivery improvements and to reduced admin- istrative and executive costs — all for the benefit of the customers, of government and most importantly, of course, of the taxpayers who are responsible for financ- ing the functions that BCBC , and now the ministry, are responsible for. [S. Hawkins in the chair.] In terms of the structure that will replace the corpo- rate structure of the B.C. Buildings Corp., this bill will confer upon the Minister of Labour and Citizens' Ser-

2932 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2006 vices those powers necessary to enable the ministry to carry out all aspects of what was the corporation's business, including administration of the corporation's real property assets. Specif ically, the bill transfers to government all of the corporation's rights, all of its properties, all of its assets and, importantly, its obliga- tions and liabilities. [1505] The bill also ensures that government is able to deal with the corporation's rights , properties and assets in its own name where a record or register shows the cor- poration is owner.

That is significant insofar as the land title registry in many instances will continue to show BCBC on the title by virtue of this statutory instrument. The government and the Crown will be able to deal with those assets, as they are its own. Secondly, the bill enables the Minister of Labour and Citizens' Services to ac quire land for the purposes of accommodating public agencies. It provides the min- ister and the ministry with the power to dispose of land. It provides services for the lands such as devel- opment, maintenance and management and to set and levy fees in connection with the ministry's services.

Thirdly, the bill permits the Minister of Labour and Citizens' Services to transfer the administration of any land that he or she administers to another ministry and other minister with that minister's consent. Lastly, in terms of the structure that is put in place by virtue of Bill 3, this bill allows each of the registrars of land titles to amend their registers to reflect the transfer of land ownership from BCBC, the Crown cor- poration, to the government in the guise of the Minis- try of Labour and Citizens' Services.

Finally, let me say that the work that has been un- dertaken for almost 30 years by the individuals within BCBC, the Crown corporation, is to be applauded. They have brought great dedication and diligence to the assignments they have been provided with in terms of the management of the real estate portfolio. This changed model is a reflection of an ability we believe as government that we can bring to effect greater efficien- cies, to effect significant cost savings.

I have been heartened by the response this has elic- ited both from people within the corporation itself who remain dedicated to the task that they have been as- signed and from others who see the value, and the ul- timate value, to taxpayers in effecting this change. I know that the opposition critic has some com- ments that he would like to offer with respect to Bill 3. H. Lali: I r i s e i n s u p p o r t o f B i l l 3 . T h e o p p o s i t i o n agrees with the government in terms of bringing BCBC back into the fold of government.

It had been bounced around a little bit since th e Liberal government had taken office, and as a result, there was a fair bit of un- certainty that took place since 2001. There was a bit of chaos, also, created by guarded core reviews that for years had undermined the workplace. After BCBC's privatized operations — the failed attempt to privatize this — it cost about $6½ million over that time. I'm glad that the government has the good sense to bring this back into the government fold. I know there was a time when the NDP were in gov- ernment.

Some of the assets of BCBC were being sold, and at that time the opposition — when the govern- ment was in opposition — were actually quite critical. Some of the Liberal members at that time had equated that to "heating your home by burning the furniture." That was then, and I guess this is now. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] I'm certainly glad, and so is our caucus, that BCBC is going to be brought back within the fold of govern- ment again.

Also, this prov ides the certainty and the stability that not only the workers who work at BCBC are looking for but also the clientele and the customers that are out there who deal with BCBC on a regular basis, as it is if not the largest then one of the largest managers of real estate assets in British Columbia. Having said that, I would conclude my remarks by s a y i n g t h a t w e a r e i n s u p p o r t o f t h i s . I b e l i e v e i t i s a good thing to keep it with in the fold, and certainly government, the workers and the people who use BCBC will be happy. I'll sit down with these remarks. [1510] Mr.

Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, the Minis- ter of Labour and Citizens' Services closes debate. Hon. M. de Jong: Well, I've been around this place long enough to take the su pport and run, and that's what I will do. I will therefore move second reading. Motion approved. Hon. M. de Jong: I move that the bill be referred to a Committee of the Whole House for consideration at the next sitting of the House after today.

B i l l 3 , P u b l i c A g e n c y A c c o m m o d a t i o n A c t , r e a d a second time and referred to a Committee of the Whole House for consideration at the next sitting of the House after today. Hon. M. de Jong: Mr. Speaker, I call Bill 4. AGRICULTURE AND LANDS STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT, 2006 Hon. P. Bell: Mr. Speaker, I move that Bill 4 be read a second time now. Bill 4 amends the Land Act and the Ministry of Lands, Parks and Housing Act by expanding the minis- ter's authority to delegate his or her powers under these acts to other ministers.

This bill allows the minister to attach terms and conditions to this delegation, ensuring consistency with those powers being delegated. In addition, the bill pro- vides authority for ministers to subdelegate within their ministries.

THURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2933 Finally, the bill does not change the minister's cur- rent ability to delegate authority to a government cor- poration, a public officer in the ministry or the sur- veyor general to act on the minister's behalf under these specific sections of the act. B. Ralston: I rise very briefly to speak to this bill. The opposition supports this bill. It would appear to be a routine amendment that si mply adds members of the executive council, that is cabinet ministers, to the list of potential delegees.

The only issue that will be pursued in committee, I suppose, will be the issue of transparency, after the delegation has been made, of the ensuing sales that take place within the differe nt ministries. I understand it's contemplated that this may be of particular assis- tance to the ministry responsible for — the term is es- caping me now — resorts; that's it.

Those involve fairly complicated land deals and very huge agreements, and so there is an issue of being able to follow the ultimate disposition and the proceeds of sale should some citi- zen wish to do that, and th at's something that will be more properly pursued at the committee stage. The only other issue that I would raise is this does give the potential to delegate to the Ministry of Abo- riginal Relations and Reconciliation the sale and dispo- sition of Crown land. Again, that's an issue that we will pursue at the committee stage.

Finally, this would appear to be consistent with the government's direction in that Land and Water B.C., originally set up as a separate agency to dispose of Crown land, has been resolved and brought back into the Ministry of Agriculture and Lands. So this policy direction would appear to be consistent with that move and the opposition supports that. Mr. Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, the Minis- ter of Agriculture and Lands closes debate. Hon. P. Bell: Knowing when we have support, we will take that and run and appreciate that it's a Thurs- day afternoon. Motion approved. Hon. P.

Bell: I do appreciate the opposition member identifying the key areas. We'll make sure that we have the appropriate answers for him in committee stage. With that, I move Bill 4 be referred to a Committee of the Whole House to be considered at the next sitting of the House after today. Bill 4, Agriculture and Lands Statutes Amendment Act, 2006, read a second time and referred to a Com- mittee of the Whole House for consideration at the next sitting of the House after today. [1515] Hon. M. de Jong: I call Committee of Supply for the consideration of the estimate s of the Ministry of Small Business and Revenue.

Committee of Supply ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF SMALL BUSINESS AND REVENUE AND MINISTER RESPONSIBLE FOR REGULATORY REFORM (continued) The House in Committee of Supply (Section B); S. Hawkins in the chair. The committee met at 3:16 p.m. On Vote 39: ministry operations, $45,200,000 (con- tinued). M. Karagianis: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. That was the quickest bill debate I've ever seen in my life. We were questioning this morning…. I was actually questioning the minister ab out revenue streams, and I know we had only just got started on that.

So if I could, please, perhaps go back to my original question of this morning, which was…. The minister had alluded in the fall to 40 revenue streams of government, and perhaps he could elaborate a little bit more on what those 40 streams are, please. Hon. R. Thorpe: What I believe I referred to in the fall, and what I often refer to, is the 40 streams of ac- counts receivable in government. That is why, under the leadership of our Premie r, the Ministry of Provin- cial Revenue, as it was first known, was created.

It was created to actually consolidate these 40 accounts re- ceivable revenue streams and then move forward in a very sophisticated centre-of-excellence approach for collection of those accounts receivable, for the man- agement of those accounts receivable, and to have a much more efficient process for the collection of mon- eys due to British Columbians. So it was really not new revenue streams; it is the consolidation of accounts receivable streams within government today. [1520] M. Karagianis: I will have further questions about the consolidation later on in my questioning.

At this point I'm trying to really kind of determine these 40 revenue streams. I have a list here of the legislation that is administered by the ministry, and it includes: corpo- rate capital tax, homeowner's grants, hotel room tax — all of these. Would these be among the 40 revenue streams that the minister is referring to? Hon. R. Thorpe: Yes. M. Karagianis: Among these, I do have a select number of questions that refer to very specific legisla- tive acts that the minister is responsible for. The first I'd like to ask about is the E&N belt tax.

The minister may be aware of the fact that this is of particular and keen intere st to my constituents. I'm wondering if the minister can talk a little bit about this

2934 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2006 act. There's been much said over the past number of months about this tax, about its implications on the newly formed Island corridor and, certainly, some cu- riosity around whether or not this belt tax act is going to be invoked. It has not up to this point been used, to the best of my knowledge. Certainly, the newly formed Island Corridor Foundation is hopeful that this tax will not be enacted on their behalf.

I would ask the minister, first of all, how active this tax act is, and whether or not it's the intention of gov- ernment to, in fact, apply that tax to the Island Corridor Foundation. Hon. R. Thorpe: Government will certainly con- sider very carefully the public interest of this matter. The tax considerations are very, very substantial, and quite frankly, they're quite complex. We are currently reviewing the entire situation. M.

Karagianis: Perhaps the minister could be a bit more forthcoming about the nature of the tax: what triggers its application; why, in fact, the tax has not been applied up to this point on that E&N corridor; and give us a little bit of an indication of what the his- tory of this has been. Hon. R. Thorpe: It's my understanding that the belt tax act was first introduced in the 1950s and that there have been taxes triggered by this, the last time being sometime in the 1970s. Generally, what has happened….

Of course, I'm sure the member would appreciate that I cannot talk or speculate about individual tax matters, but generally, what triggers this tax and what this act does…. It's triggered and a tax is payable at the value of 25 percent of the land that is withdrawn from the parcels. [1525] M. Karagianis: If the last time this was triggered was in the 1970s, can the minister confirm that in fact this tax has not been collected since that time? Hon. R. Thorpe: My understanding of the legisla- tion is that the onus for triggering the tax in this statute is placed upon the railway company when a title is transferred.

To our knowle dge, the railway company has not advised us that they have done anything with any of the lands. M. Karagianis: Well, minister, the actual railway has changed hands several times since the 1970s. It was originally owned by CP an d then the Esquimalt and Nanaimo. That was taken over by RailAmerica some years ago.

Now all of the corridor has been consoli- dated, and there was a press event here not too long ago that actually devolved all the land to the Island Corridor Foundation, which is made up of municipal communities and aboriginal communities up and down the length and breadth of Vancouver Island. It is a grave concern of theirs — what the triggering mechanism may or may not be for this tax. Historically, it has not been triggered when rail interests have exchanged hands. From E&N to RailAmerica did not trigger this tax to the best of my understanding and knowledge.

So at this point, the organization, Island communities and all of the inter- ests in the Island corridor have been asking of govern- ment and of their representatives whether or not this tax, in fact, has been collected, will be collected or un- der what circumstances it will be left dormant. Hon. R. Thorpe: As I said to the member earlier, and I'll say it again….

Quite frankly, because of my obligations of confidentiality and protection of per- sonal information, I'm not going to get into a discus- sion on the personal aspects of tax legislation on par- ticular tax filers or whether files have been filed or haven't been filed with respect to individual organiza- tions or companies. I have a fiduciary responsibility, a statutory responsibility, to safeguard the protection of this information. What I have said is that government will certainly consider carefully the public interest of this matter.

The tax considerations, again, are extremely complex, and they are very substantial. We are currently reviewing the situation. M. Karagianis: So the minister will not respond to me for the reasons he has outlined here. Can I just clar- ify to whom the minister will respond in this case? Certainly, the Island Corridor Foundation has been seeking the assistance of th eir duly elected members of the Legislative Assembly for some support in this.

It would help very much if I can give them some direc- tion in who they might expect to send as their emissary to obtain this information, certainly understanding that the members on the Island here that are supporting the initiative are here to en courage and support govern- ment in the kinds of consid erations that the minister has outlined. But it would help greatly if we knew ex- actly what the process would be that would satisfy the minister. [1530] Hon. R. Thorpe: As I said earlier, the triggering of the tax liability is a responsibility of the owner of the lands.

To my knowledge, we have not been officially advised on that triggering of that activity. I would sus- pect that if we do receive official notification, then it would be most appropriate for my officials to meet with the appropriate officials involved in any potential tax liabilities that may exist. M. Karagianis: Thanks through to the minister. I will certainly look into the issue of whether or not the organization has notified or intends to notify the minis- ter in writing and will then save our energies, from the MLAs' point of view, until we can urge you to respond quickly or something of that nature.

Going back to the revenue streams, there are a number of them here. I could certainly ask questions on several of them, but I'm wondering whether or not

THURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2935 it's possible for me to obtain a report of what the reve- nue streams are, rather than having to go through and ask in each one of these areas specific questions that the minister may or may not feel inclined to answer. Hon. R. Thorpe: Yes, I will ask my staff. We've just discussed it. We will prepare for you the list of the 40 revenue systems, and we will get that to you in the next couple days. M. Karagianis: Thank you to the minister and staff on that. That would be very helpful.

I look forward to reading that and may in fact approach the minister, after the estimates, to further discuss any questions I have there. I know we discussed, back in the fall, the possibility of fine collection, other than traffic fines, that might be transferred to the minister. Is that in fact part of the larger revenue management system planning at this point, or has that taken place? Hon. R. Thorpe: One of the aspects of moving for- ward on our consolidated revenue management sys- tem and our centre of excellence here in British Colum- bia for the management of the receivables is a process called onboarding.

We are cu rrently, as I said earlier this morning, in the final stages of building the RMS system, and we are now in a variety of discussions with potential onboardings. Of course, when you're looking at those, you're looking at the business case for doing it, if there is a cost involved in bringing somebody onto a system. So we are now in the process. That is potentially one of the items that could be brou ght into a central accounts receivable management. At this point in time it's not a high priority, but eventually it's something that we would envisage. M. Karagianis: Thank you for the answer to that.

I look forward to exploring a little bit more about the revenue management system again at a later time. I do have some questions here with regard to the new homeowner's grants. I know that homeowners across British Columbia are very appreciative of the lift in the homeowner's grant, bu t there is a document on record that is a petition from float homes around Brit- ish Columbia, which have typically been left out of the homeowner's grant process. I would ask the minister whether or not there is going to be reconsideration of that, given the fact that there's been a lift to homeown- ers.

It has not been extended to those who live on the water. Would the minister like to respond in any way to consideration of float homes? [1535] Hon. R. Thorpe: As I said earlier in our debates, we in the Ministry of Small Business and Revenue actually get to administer the tax policy once it's been estab- lished. It is, actually, the Mi nister of Finance who does make the decisions with respect to tax policy items that are, obviously, announced for the most

part in the budget every year. I believe it's the third Tuesday of every February. I would be very interest ed in receiving whatever documentation the member has, and I'm assuming this might be from one of her constituency groups — float homes, knowing a little bit about her riding. That's good. If the member wanted to get that information to me, I'd be very, very pleased to make sure that it gets to the Minister of Finance for her consideration, as she always does when she is preparing budgets. M.

Karagianis: In fact, it's constituencies outside of my own, as well, although I do have a considerable float home community in my constituency. I'd be happy to pass along the information that I have to the minister, but it does make me a little bit curious, then, about the fact that this is lis ted as one of the things, the legislation, that's administered by the ministry. This is, I guess, where I have some confusion, cer- tainly, about who I ask ques tions around some respon- sibilities.

I ran into this in the fall, as well, where a number of questions I had were in fact for the Minister of Finance rather than for this ministry. Can the minis- ter perhaps outline just a li ttle bit where, I guess, the barriers are in the legislation that you administer ver- sus where other ministries or the Finance Minister ac- tually has the authority? Hon. R. Thorpe: First of all, it's actually only the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Small Business and Revenue. Policy decisions are made by the Minis- ter of Finance.

For the most part, those decisions are usually communicated to British Columbians in the provincial budget on the third Tuesday of February. Once those decisions have been announced, our ministry then works extremely closely with the Minis- try of Finance officials on the implementation and ramifications of those legislative changes. Once that has been completed — and I must say through the whole budget process — ministry officials, from Small Business and Revenue and Finance policy, work ex- tremely closely together and do an excellent job.

Once that handoff takes place to the Ministry of Small Business and Revenue, then we administer the tax statute, whatever it may be. An example would be the changes now that have taken place with respect to the machinery and equipment exemption for provincial sales tax. That would be an example. One of those ex- amples is the minister adding to the exemption list spare parts used to build equipment here in British Columbia. Previously that was not part of the exemp- tion process. Now, it's a two-way street that we work on a lot of the time, because we're in consultation.

We're involved day to day in the field working with small businesses and other enterprises throughout British Columbia, and we're getting feedback all the time on what's work- ing, what's not working, and we generally feed that up to the Minister of Finance. Then their policy group, working together with our policy group, reaches some decisions.

2936 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2006 For the most part, the Finance Minister is guided by the pressures that we've ta lked about earlier today: w h a t d o w e n e e d t o i n v e s t i n h e a l t h c a r e a n d e d u c a - tion, what do we need to invest in competitive personal tax rates, and what do we do for small business tax rates? That's generally how it works. I guess if it were a real short answer: the Finance Minister announces pol- icy; we then administer th at policy on a day-to-day basis and provide feedback to the Minister of Finance on things that we're hearing in the marketplaces. [1540] M. Karagianis: Let me understand clearly now. How wide of an

interpretation do you have about ap- plying some of these policies? In the case where we go back to homeowner's grants, has the Finance Minister's policy been so prescriptive that it says that home- owner's grants will apply to homes located on land but not on water? Or, in fact, is there some…? Policy generally is fairly broad, and it is in the ad- ministration of legislation that the details come in about what is prohibited and what is not. I would certainly think, even from my experience at the municipal level, that policy and administration…. In fact, the details come in the administrative side of this.

Perhaps the min- ister could just enlighten me a little bit more on that. Hon. R. Thorpe: Thank you for the questions, be- cause it is a complex issue. Tax administration and tax policy are complex, and that is why they are put in legislation. Tax policy is prescribed in legislation. Most tax policy is captured in detailed legislation to avoid misinterpretations. But what does happen from time to time…. We're all human beings. I don't know if you've ever noticed that it's not very often that many of us are perfect every day, so sometimes there are things that need to be corrected.

Things may have sounded good when they were being designed, but when they are actually put into application, somebody scratches the back of their head and says: "That doesn't make a whole bunch of sense." Let me give you an example. Tax policy with re- spect to the homeowner's grants for those with disabili- ties is outlined very clearly in legislation. In our admin- istering of the homeowner grant, a situation came to my attention from an individual who had a disability.

In the homeowner grant, to qualify for it, you actually had to demonstrate that you had spent a certain num- ber of dollars to provide the renovations — whatever was required — to your residence which was entitled to a homeowner's grant. Well, that is admirable. We're helping those with disabilities. But what happens when that person with disabilities has made this investment in their home in community "A" and then moves to community "B" and buys a home that already has the ramps and the wide doors and all that? They actually, according to the law, were not eligible for the disability grant.

We brought this real-life situation to the attention of the Minister of Finance, and of course, on budget day, like all other British Columbians, I heard what the Minister of Fi- nance delivered to this House. They were making a change so that when somebody does buy a house that has already had the improvements, if they are paying "X" dollars, we could assume that part of the purchase price covered those ramps. Therefore, they are eligible. We actually hear about the things on the ground. We then have a process that we work very closely on with Finance officials, and we move them up. That is how the system works.

They make policy; we adminis- ter it. We hear things, we see things, we provide feed- back, and where appropriate, the minister makes the appropriate decisions to modify — generally to cover the overall intent of the original policy. M. Karagianis: In the case of float homes, if we can just continue to discuss that a little bit further. In fact, it is the legislative language of this ministry that catego- rizes float homes along with manufactured homes and, therefore, makes them ineligib le. Is that part of the leg- islation that came from the Minister of Finance?

Is that where this kind of language needs to be interpreted or amended, or is that from this ministry? [1545] Hon. R. Thorpe: I t m i g h t b e e a s i e r j u s t t o o u t l i n e what the eligibility criteria are. You must be an owner under the act, typically a regi stered owner, but it also includes registered life tenants and registered holders of agreements of sale. You must be a resident of British Columbia. The property must be shown as a separate taxable parcel on the tax roll and have an improvement occupied as residential accommodation. You must oc- cupy the property as your principal residence.

There are special eligibility criter ia for apartment buildings, housing co-op buildings and housing society buildings. M. Karagianis: If I understand correctly, nowhere in that legislative language does it talk about manufac- tured homes or float homes, and it makes no judgment whatsoever on them. So on e would ask why they are not covered and eligible for homeowner grants. Hon. R. Thorpe: The member asked a question with regard to mobile home s. We're currently seeking c l a r i f i c a t i o n .

I f y o u w a n t t o m o v e o n t o a n o t h e r q u e s - tion, as soon as I get that, I'll provide it to you while we're here, shortly. M. Karagianis: Thank you very much. I'll move on now to another area. Although I know I'm going to be getting detailed information and reports from you on the revenue streams, I was fascinated by the topic around tobacco use. I know the ministry has launched ActNow, whose m a n d a t e o r i n t e n t i s t o r e d u c e t o b a c c o u s e b y 1 0 p e r - cent. I was fascinated by the connection with that to the contraband tobacco.

In fact, I guess my questions w o u l d b e : f i r s t o f a l l , h o w m u c h i n c o m e d o t o b a c c o sales produce? And then from there: where's the differ- entiation between reducing all tobacco use and just contraband?

THURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2937 Hon. R. Thorpe: Tobacco-tax revenue is estimated at just under $700 million — about $690 million a year. M. Karagianis: In the efforts to reduce tobacco use, why specifically is the ministry targeting just contra- band tobacco rather than reducing all tobacco sales? [1550] Hon. R. Thorpe: First of all, let me make sure that the member is fully informed that we are concerned about all forms of tobacco — legal tobacco and contra- band tobacco.

There is an extreme intere st in contraband tobacco and illegal tobacco sales, because generally, they are obviously coming into the country and into the prov- ince illegally. They are also generally sold in the black market or in what is deemed to be the black market. They are generally sold at lower prices, which would then make it much more attractive to people to pur- chase that type of product — including our youth, which all of us are very, very concerned about. We do have a special tobacco unit that focuses on enforcement, special investigations.

We work together with the RCMP, federal officials, international officials. We do a number of inspections. Working together with Health Ministry officials, we play a very important role, and will play a very important role, in our gov- ernment in making sure that we achieve that goal of reducing tobacco consumption by 10 percent. Contraband tobacco is a very serious issue, and one that I have had the opportunity to visit with our offi- cials. A large percentage of these individuals are re- tired or former senior law enforcement officers.

They understand the street — if I could use that term — very well, and it's quite amazing. It's very hard to estimate, but one of the areas of activity where we have concern is tobacco coming in from overseas, made in countries overseas. If a con- tainer comes through and is not apprehended, poten- tial revenue losses to the province are upwards of $3 million. It's very financially attractive for those that want to deal in this. There are estimates that the poten- tial revenue lost to the province could be upwards of $200 million. Of course, those are estimates.

It's very hard to figure out those kinds of estimates. One of the ways we attempt to monitor whether there's an ever-increasing flow of contraband tobacco is to monitor our tax revenue that we get versus other things that happen — markups, prices changing. We don't believe that today there's any more contraband than was coming in a year ago or two years ago, but it's an issue that we have people working on — again, with federal and international law enforcement officers — to make every effort to control it. M.

Karagianis: I would certainly perceive that the vast amounts of money we're talking about could be seen as part of the underground economy. Does the minister have any concern about cross- border sales in tobacco? Certainly, the issue of cross- border sales has been of extr emely keen interest to the minister. There have been times here in this country where cheap tobacco coming from other provinces has been a huge issue federally.

I believe that to this day, if you enter the province of Manitoba, you are not al- lowed to bring cigarettes in without declaring them, much the same as if you were entering a foreign port and had to declare anything you were bringing out of the country with you. Are the cross-border sales an issue, as well, on this? An d what kind of dollars are attributed to that? [1555] Hon. R. Thorpe: Cross-border is always an issue with respect to tobacco products. That is why we have working arrangements with Canada Border Services for things coming in from the United States.

That's why we have arrangements with Border Services and Can- ada Post for things coming in from overseas by post. That was a new program we put in place a year or year and a half ago. We had seen through the observations that law enforcement official s make that this was an area of concern. The member is quite right that there have been parts of Canada, in eastern Canada, with relationships with certain organizations in the northeast United States — things coming into Canada and finding their way across Canada. Those are all reasons we have the 24-person special investigations unit.

We also have a very close working relationship with respect to receiving information on shipments from the authorized tobacc o retailers, sellers rather, into British Columbia. We do also monitor very closely the tax-exempt sales that are arranged through a num- ber of our first nations. M. Karagianis: I'm puzzled by the term "watching the authorized retail sellers. " Is the minister inferring that there are some underground activities even through the legitimate retail networks? Hon. R. Thorpe: No, I'm not suggesting that at all.

What I was referring to — and perhaps wasn't quite as clear as I should have been — was the cigarette manu- facturers who ship to British Columbia. They, too, have an extremely vested interest in making sure that not only the province of British Columbia but other juris- dictions in Canada know legal product versus counter- feit, contraband product that is being shipped into Canada from overseas markets masquerading as some of their brands.

They, too, have a vested interest in counterfeit goods, and they provide us with informa- tion to assist our very good special investigations unit with the work that they have t o d o . A g a i n , t h i s i s i n - formation from manufacturers. Retailers. As the member may know, there has been a project called the ID project — the identification pro- ject. The government has in place that you have to pro- duce two pieces of ID if you don't look 25 years of age. These are ongoing things.

I would suspect that as we move forward, we're all going — on the government and the opposition sides — to have to work very, very

2938 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2006 closely to make sure that we're doing everything we can to safeguard our youth, quite frankly, from things that we know can cause severe, life-ending danger to people in British Columbia. M. Karagianis: I'm sure the minister meant 19 years of age, not 25. Hon. R. Thorpe: That's correct; 19 is the correct age. [1600] M. Karagianis: I thought perhaps the legislation had changed, and I was unaware of the fact that you had to be 25 to sign for cigarettes in this province. The minister mentioned some concerns with first nations cigarette sales as well.

Can you explain the jurisdictional difference th ere with first nations and what, if any, changes you would like to see or might anticipate? Hon. R. Thorpe: There is an exempt sales retail dealers program, but to be a part of this, they must be registered with the provincial government to sell a product. Generally, this is based on the population of the area that they serve, and it is all covered under the Indian Act of Canada. Our registration, review and monitoring programs are ve ry similar to other prov- inces across Canada.

I would be remiss if I didn't say that in working with first nations on the exempt sales retail dealers information, we have a very, very good working rela- tionship. All the partners seem to be extremely pleased with the way it's going. M. Karagianis: I ' l l m o v e o n , t h e n , j u s t w i t h s o m e specific questions here about oil and gas revenue. I'm presuming we still are fine with the same staff if we're discussing this revenue as well. Has the minister had any meetings with the oil and gas industry in the last year? Hon. R. Thorpe: Yes. M. Karagianis: Would the minister care to elabo- rate?

Is this a process — that he meets with the oil and gas industry regularly? What staff members may be involved? And is this an ongoing process, much like some of his meetings with other aspects of the business community? Hon. R. Thorpe: Yes. With other members of our government — led by the Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources, who is our lead minister — I meet from time to time with members of the Canadian Petroleum Association and with oil and gas contractors and other related organizations, as we do with lots of organizations. Yes, my staff do meet on an ongoing basis with officials.

Revenue through the province of British Co- lumbia from the oil and gas industry is substantial. We are continually working with the industry to make sure that where we can simplify and streamline processes, we're doing that with industry. We're also continually working with industry to ensure that British Columbi- ans are receiving their fair and equitable share, whether it be sales tax or royalties, etc. [1605] [S. Hammell in the chair.] W e d o h a v e a b r a n c h i n t h e M i n i s t r y o f R e v e n u e that does look after oil and gas revenue.

Of course, in our sales tax branch we also have specialists related to that. In fact, we have had a special northeast oil and gas strategy to make sure that Alberta contractors op- erating in British Columbia for the most part are pay- ing the sales tax due.

It's part of a process that we meet with groups and associations and individuals as appropriate, as staff deem to be necessary, to make sure that we're getting ou r work done and, from a m inisterial per specti ve, to make sure that we understand the issues, understand the opportunities and understand how we can further enhance the oil and gas industry in the province for the benefit of British Columbians. M. Karagianis: Can the minister give us a list of who the companies are that he has met with in the past year? Hon. R. Thorpe: Generally, I meet with members of the association. It's called CAPP.

They generally come to Victoria and/or Vancouver a couple of times a year, and we sit down and chat ab out things. It's generally the industry association rath er than individual compa- nies. M. Karagianis: I do understand that the members of the association…. I would expect that the names of the companies that belong to that association would be readily available? Hon. R. Thorpe: I would assume that if the mem- ber chose to go on the Canadian Association of Petro- leum Producers' website, I'm sure they probably have some indication of who their members are. M. Karagianis: I will certainly avail myself of that.

Has the minister met with Suncor recently or in the last year? Hon. R. Thorpe: I'm sorry; I didn't catch the name. M. Karagianis: Has the minister met with Suncor Energy Inc. — S-u-n-c-o-r? Hon. R. Thorpe: Not to my recollection. M. Karagianis: One of the things we discussed in the fall was the audits. Certainly, we did have some in- depth discussion about the oil and gas sector and the reliance on…. I think the minister talked about sophis-

THURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2939 ticated techniques for auditing and for, I guess, investi- gating where and when all revenues may not have been forthcoming. Is there a list of companies that have been audited in the last year? Hon. R. Thorpe: The tax statutes and the legislation pertaining to tax statutes guarantee protection of per- sonal and private information. Yes, I and senior staff know who have been audited, but that information is protected because of the statutes and the legislation to protect personal and private information. M.

Karagianis: In regard to the audits, I know that Bill 9 was tabled in the House yesterday. Certainly, there are some implications in the language there. Can the minister perhaps answer whether or not he's had any direct input on Bill 9? [1610] Hon. R. Thorpe: I would think that discussion on Bill 9 would be most appropriate in the committee stage of that bill, when it comes to that stage. M. Karagianis: So we'll leave that for the time be- ing. I know that in our discussions in the fall there was also some reference to new amendments for ensuring that all revenue was collected.

Can the minister per- haps elaborate a little bit on that? Have there, in fact, been new amendments that we re addressed? Does this refer to just the Costco investigation of that nature, or is there something else that is coming out of those amendments? Hon. R. Thorpe: Generally speaking, the amend- ments pertaining to tax policy and statutes are intro- duced along with the budget when the Minister of Fi- nance introduces that budget.

There were some changes that do require some legislative changes, and I believe they are in the budg et-related legislation that will be discussed in the House at the appropriate time. With respect to any other amendments, I can't fore- cast what legislation may come. Generally, amend- ments to tax statutes do have to come in the form of legislative change, which then would be discussed at committee stage if and when such legislation came forward. M.

Karagianis: Well, I know that in our discussions in the fall there was referenc e specifically to proposed amendments to production regulation, reporting and collecting of tax royalties. If the minister is saying that there is no such legislation planned or coming forward or in discussion or that he's unable to discuss that, per- haps he could clarify what he meant in the fall. Hon. R. Thorpe: I'm sorry. I do not recollect the discussions that the member is referring to. If she wanted to provide the detail, it may refresh my mind in that regard. M.

Karagianis: It was an extensive discussion we were actually having. It spreads over three pages of the Hansard from last fall, so I'd be happy to highlight these pieces for the minister. Perhaps we can discuss it once that's been done. [1615] I will move along to a refe rence here to debt trans- fer portfolio. Again, this leads us to this revenue man- agement system that you referred to before, and per- haps that's what this referred to. Back in the fall, when we were discussing collections, one of the things that the minister said related to this transfer of debt portfo- lios from other ministries.

Again, I'm making the con- nection that we're talking about this consolidated reve- nue management system, and I see the minister nod- ding his head. Then I guess I'll move on, although certainly that question and that discussion may come up again. I'd like to move, then, into Regulatory Reform, if I can, provid- ing this doesn't cause a large change in staff, does it? Hon. R. Thorpe: No, we have all of the appropriate staff here. We just need a little time to work them in and out, but if we're going to move on to Regulatory Reform, we'll make sure that the regulatory reform person is here.

So go ahead and ask your question, and we'll be ready for you. Our person from Regulatory Reform will be here momentarily. M. Karagianis: Certainly, I beg forgiveness if fur- ther questions that I have are going to require staff members to come back and forth. It was not my inten- tion to do that, but as the minister has indicated several times, very complex issues…. There are many complex threads that run back and forth through the Revenue portion of the minister's responsibilities, as well as the Small Business and certainl y Regulatory Reform.

In some cases I was using the ministry's own reporting system and the way they have outlined things to judge my organizing the questions here. We had some extensive discussion last fall about regulatory reform. I know that this is a topic that the minister is usually quite keen to discuss, so can the minister perhaps just give me a general update at this point from our discussions in the fall? Oh, and I see him flexing, so he's excited. Hon. R. Thorpe: Yes, it's not only one that I like to talk about; it's actually one that our government likes to talk about very much.

You know, from when we first formed government in 2001, to the current Minister of Transportation tak- ing an extremely active involvement, and then the now Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General being involved, and myself being in volved, and of course all of our government being involved, we set a goal of one-third for regulatory reform in the province. To start that, we actually had to start with a base- line. There were some in the beginning that ridiculed our government for actually counting regulations so that we could have a baseline. We knew that if we

2940 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2006 didn't have a baseline, it would be somewhere down the road that someone would be saying: "Well, how do you know you've achieved what you said you were g o i n g t o a c h i e v e ? " S o w e d o h a v e i t b y m i n i s t r y , a n d we have, as of January 31, reduced the regulatory count in British Columbia by 40.32 percent, or 154,000 regulations. That's what we call track one.

As we move forward on track one, which is a pure accounting of regulations to monitor our progress, we have committed that the regulatory count throughout our government, the base- line for growth, will be zero-zero-and-zero. In fact, ministers, ministries and public servants throughout British Columbia are continually looking for improve- ments in our regulatory count. At the same time, we are now going to be moving on to what we call a citizen-centred regulatory reform track, and we're going to refer to that as track two. It's going to be focused on time.

It's going to be focused on how we can save British Columbians time, how we can save small business operators time. By saving them time, we believe that we actually will save time inside government. As we all know, there seem to be an awful lot of things to do for everybody these days, whether you're in government, in small business or an individ- ual. So that is going to be our track. [1620] We are going to have modest beginnings. We are going to look at two or thre

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0309pm-07
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0309pm 07
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e60a143819009d2287ea613dedfe4439684d86d1

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