Manitoba Hansard — 29 August 1988 (Sitting 25A, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-25a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS {HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No. 25A -1:30 p.m., MONDAY, AUGUST 29, 1988. ISSN 0542-5492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

NAME AlCOCK, Reg ANGUS, John ASHTON, Sieve BURREll, Parker CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CHARLES, Gwen CHEEMA, Gulzar CHORNOPYSKI, William CONNERY, Edward Hon. COWAN,J ay CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DERKACH, leonard, Hon. DOER, Gary DOWNE Y, James Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DRIEDGER, Herold, L DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon. EDW ARDS, Paul IENNS, Harry ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, laurie EVANS, leonar d FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen Hon. GAUDR Y, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold GRAY, Avis HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R. HEMPHILL, Maureen KOZAK, Richard, J. LAMOUREUX, Kevin, M.

MALOWAY, Jim MANDRAKE, Ed MANNESS, Cla yton, Hon. McCRAE, James Hon. MINENKO , Mark MANITOBA lEGISlATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation CONSTITUENCY Osborne St. Norbert Thompson Swan River Fort Rouge River Heights Selkirk Kildonan Burrows Portage la Prairie Churchill Ste. Rose du Lac Roblin-Russell Concordia Arthur Emerson Niakwa Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Fort Garry Brandon East Tuxedo Virden St.

Boniface Minn edosa Ellice Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Gimli Logan Transcona lnk ster Elmwood Assiniboia Morris Brandon West Seven Oaks MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere OLESON, Charlotte Hon. Gladstone ORCHARD, Donald Hon. Pembina PANKRATZ, Helmut La Verendrye PAITERSON, Allan Radisson PENNER, Jack, Hon. Rhineland PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Turtle Mountain ROCH, Gilles Springfield ROSE, Bob St. Vital STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon TAYLOR, Harold Wolseley URUSKI, Bill lnterlake WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy St.

Johns YEO, lva Sturgeon Creek PARTY LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP PC LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC NDP NDP PC NDP LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL PC PC PC PC PC LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC PC LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL NDP NDP LIBERAL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, August 29, 1988. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert) introduced, by leave, Bill No. 20, The Water Rights Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les droits d'utilisation de l'eau . Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation) introduced, by leave , Bill No. 21, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act ; Loi modifiant le Code de la route . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Before proceeding to oral ques tions, would like to draw all Honourable Members ' attention to the Speaker's gallery where we have with us this afternoon Reverend Vasyl Romaniuk, accompanied by the Primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Canada, Metropolit an Wasyly. On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this afternoon . *

(1335) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Foster Care Funding Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we are now only three days away from what will be the most socially disruptive situations the foster parents and children will have experienced in the Province of Manitoba. The Minister of Community Services (Mrs. Oleson) reassured us on Friday that negotiations were ongoing , but meantime the foster parents were subjected to one of the worst examples of manipulation that I have encountered in my years in this House, th is weekend .

It bec ame obvious to us all that not only did she lack an understan ding of the problems, but she lacked the ability and willingness to even look at the solutions . She chose instead to use intimidation and coercion into turning a group for which 50 years has been voicing the con cerns of foster parents . My question to the Minister of Community Services- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Government House Leader . Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, I invite you to consider whether the terms "in timidation" and " coercion" do not tend to impute unworthy motives on the Honourable Minister of Community Services (Mrs . Oleson) . I wonder if you might consider asking the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs . Carstairs) to withdraw and to apologize . Mr. Speaker : I am sure the Honourable Member knows the rules on parliamentary words in Beauchesne . I am sure the Honourable Member would like to comply. Mrs. Carstairs : Yes, I will comply . I will ask the Minister of Community Services (Mrs. Oleson) , is it now her intention- Mr. Speaker: Order , please . Mrs.

Carstairs : I am sorry, Mr. Speaker . I will withdraw. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourab le Member . Mrs. Carstairs: Is it now her intention to negotiate solutions with the foster parents on an indi vidual basis, or is she prepared to negotiate through the Foster Parents Association? Mrs. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Community Services): For the information of the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs . Carstairs) , the negotiations are still going on with the Foster Parents Association. I am meeting with them at five o'clock this afternoon.

The questionnaire which she alludes to was for information. 832 Foster Care Telephone Survey Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): My supplementary question to the same Minister. Why did she undermine this organ ization through a letter and telephone campaign if it is her intention that she st ill intends to work with the Foste r Parents Association? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Community Services): It should be quite obvious that I still intend to work with the Foste r Parents Associati on. I am meeting with them this afternoon at five o'clock. Mrs.

Carstairs: It is not clear to this side of the House. Will the Minister of Community Services (Mrs. Oleson) state in the clearest possible terms that she believes the Foster Parents Association of Manitoba to be the legitimate voice of the foster parents of th is province? Mrs. Oleson: By the very fact that I am meeting with them at five o'clock this afternoon, have met with them on many occasions-my staff has met with them on many occasions-that should indicate clearly that they are the voice of the foster parents, and that is who I am dealing with .

Monday, August 29, 1988 Foster Care Telephone Survey Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (leader of the Opposition): With a new question to the First Minis ter (Mr. Filmon). There is inde ed to be a meeting this afternoon, which we believe that chances of success have been seriously undermined. Will the First Mini ster (Mr. Filmon) tell this House if he knew that the Mini ster of Communi ty Services (M rs. Oleson) was conducting this survey, and did he endor se it? * (1 340) Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): To begin with, what the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs) is suggesting is absolutely silly.

The fact that the Minister of Community Services (Mr s. Oleson) would ensure that, firstly , she had adequate information and proper information as to the needs and concerns and attitudes of the individual foster parents, and to ensure that they had adequate information about the issues involved in the dispute, that that was un dermi ning the Foster Parents Association is like saying that the Foster Parents Association are undermining their relationship with Government because they are talking with the Membe rs of the Opposition. That is nonsense, and we do not accept it.

This is a free country and a free world in which we can have dialogue and discussion about issues of mutual concerns between people who have the same concerns. Our concern is for the parents and the children, and to ensure that we do not place the chil dren in jeopardy, and we are doing everyt hing possible to avoid a confrontation and a moratorium, unlike the Leader of the Opposition and her Party who are trying to promote it. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I would ask the Honourable First Min ister (Mr. Filmon) to withdraw any imputing motives. Mr. Filmon: Mr.

Speaker , I will withdraw anything imputing motives. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable First Mini ster. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. Mrs. Carstairs: A suppleme ntary question to the First Minis ter (Mr. Filmon). If these negotiations are legitimate, then why did his Government go outside of that group that they were negotiating with, and go directly to the foster parents of this province, thereby negating the importance of their association? Mr. Filmon: We have a very serious issue facing us.

That is the potential for a moratorium on the provision 833 of foster care to childr en who need foster care in this province. We, as a Government, have an obligation to take every step possible to mini mize the impact of that potential and to have in place assurance that we can deal with and cope with that situation. Among the issues involved were to obtain knowledge as to whether or not homes would be available for the childr en; should the foster parents carry on with their threat for a moratorium. We have to take a responsible attitude. I regret that the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs.

Carstairs) is not taking a resp onsible attitude. Mrs. Carstairs: With a final supplem entary to the First Mi nister (Mr. Filmon). If these negotiations, or if this surveying had really been concerned with the foster parents' needs, it would have been through consultation with the Manitoba Foster Parents Association. Will the First Minis ter now remove the Community Services Min ister (Mrs. Oleson) from these negotiations this afternoon and replace her with another Member of the Cabinet who has perhaps a better relationship with the Manitoba Foster Parents Associ ation, because the Minister does not have that?

Mr. Filmon: The suggestion of the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) is absolutely silly. The fact of the matter is that our Government and my Mi nister of Community Services (Mrs. Oleson) are commi tted to try and find a resolution to this difficulty and this im passe. We want to ensur e that we are doing ever ything possible to demo nstrate that we care for the foster parents and the childr en who have to be cared for, but we are concerned about the well-being of the children and we want to treat fairly and reasonably the foster parents of Manitoba.

But first and foremost, we are being threatened with a moratorium and a withdrawal of homes to provide for care for the foster childr en in this province. We have to make sure that we know where there are homes available and whether or not we have alternative means available to us to ensure that the childr en are looked after. We are taking that responsibility seriously , and we are carrying it out as any good Government should. * (13 45) Chi ld Welfare Age n cies Amal ga mation Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon).

Like all Manitobans, I was absolutely appalled with the measures that were used that I think will hurt negotiations with the Foster Parents Association, not help it, that was revealed over the weekend. Indeed, Mr. Speak er, we are seeing in the short-term existence of this Government a rather big brother attitude towards communi ty-based groups, which I think is going to be very serious in the long run in this province, whether it is the Foster Parents Association,

Monday, August 29, 1988 whether it is the Labour Education Centre, whether it is the commun ity-based Wife Abuse Centre; and now we also see that the commun ity-based Children's Aid Societies are potentially on the block. My question to the First Minister is, in light of the revelations of the Minis ter this weekend, is it the Government's pol icy to again amalgamate the commu nity-based child welfare agencies in the City of Winn ip eg, the some 1, 500 memb ers from the comm unity that are involved in those agencies and the some hundreds of volunteers that are involved in those agencies on the communi ty basis?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): No, Mr. Speaker. Social Agen cies Fund ing Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my second question to the First Mini ster (Mr. Filmon), in his capacity as Minister responsible for Treasury Board.

In light of the fact that the Main Street Project and the Anti- Poverty Association have not yet heard from this Government and this Minister on their funding and budget for this year, could the First Minister tell this House, and indeed Manitobans, whether these agencies are potentially on the block, like some other community based organizations have fallen, or is it just in terms of the incom petence of the Government in not letting them know where they are in terms of their budget? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): No, Mr. Speaker , and I regret that the Member for Concordia (Mr.

Doer) seems to fill all of the Question Period with imputed fears and fear mongering for agencies of this nature that are providing a good service to the people of Manitoba. They are not on the block and I am not aware of why they have not been notified of their funding; but I can assure the Member for Concordia, they are not on the block. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, would the First Min ister, again in his capacity as head of Tre asury Board, in light of the fact that it is some two weeks after the Budget has been tabled and months after the Government took over, instruct his Minister of Community Services (Mr s.

Oleson) to immediately let these important commu nity based agencies know what their level of funding is so they can plan for the remainder of this fiscal year? Mr. Filmon: The Member is well aware that those decisions are made with the approval of the Estimates. That process is ongoing and he and his Mem bers are dealing with it, and they are spending hours and hours and hours churning through all sorts of issues such as free trade and everyt hing else in the debate of the Estimates of the Minister of the Commun ity Services (M rs. Oleson).

They are not getting down to the issues that include the funding for particular agencies and social service groups in this province, and those social service groups are being obviously put in a position of waiting because of the way in which his Party is choosing to deal with the Estimates. We will go through it in due course and they will be notified when those Estimates are approved by this House. 834 Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, while the Mini ster of Finance (Mr. Manne ss) claps, the Anti-Po verty Association and the Main Street Project were in our last Estimates.

My question to the First Minister is why has not the Minis ter of Community Services (Mrs. Oleson) let these agencies know what their budget is? Two weeks ago he said wait until the Budget is tabled. Now these agencies have waited two weeks for the Budget to be tabled and they still do not know where they are going for this fiscal year. Mr. Filmon: When the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) and his colle agues start acting responsib ly, we will make sure that everybody knows what their funding is. * (13 50) Day Care Workers Traini ng Mrs. lva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): My question is to the Mi nister of Education (Mr.

Derkach). There are specific provincial regulations that must be met regarding standards of practice for day care workers. There is a known shortfall of around 200 trained child care workers in Manitoba that will prevent many of the day care settings from complying with the legislation. Courses in the community colleges are ready to begin next week. What initiatives has the Min ister used to address this shortfall of day care workers? Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): We are very well aware of the fact that there is a shortage of qualified day care workers in this province at the present time, especially in some of the urban areas, I would say, of the province here; but I would tell the Honourable Member that the school year is going to start he re in the next week whe n many of the registrations will be taken in and many of the people will be starting their courses. If there is a requirement for more spaces or more programs required in the province, we will take a very careful look at it.

At the present time, we are examining the entire program of day care and the way it is being offered , and it might be noteworthy for the Member that at the present time there is no correlation between the programs that are being taken at Red River or Assi nib oine and programs being offered at the university, so we have to do some melding of programs and enhancement of programs. Mrs. Yeo: School begins next week. Can the Mini ster describe what criteria has been utilized to establish existing numbers of spaces available in the programs that are offered at the community colleges? An Honourable Member: Red River.

Mrs. Yeo: Red River Community College. Mr. Derkach: All I can say about that is that it takes a little while longer than three short months to be able

Monday, August 29, 1988 to establish a program and to implement a new program . We are going to continue the program as it was spelled out last year, and changes will be made to that program for the next year, but we cannot change everything overnight. If there are some specific concerns with people not being able to get into the program or waiting lists, I would be happy to address that with the Member. Mrs. Yeo: I think they have been in for four short months. Being that the rural areas are neglected , what does the Minister of Education (Mr.

Derkach) plan to do for northern residents who are unable to enroll in a full time child care program or access a related distance education component from Keewatin Community College? Mr. Derkach: Again the day care program is all under review. The day care training program, as it is in this province, certainly has some inadequacies in terms of the way it has been offered in the past. We recognize that, but those changes in programming , the availability of programs across the province cannot be addressed overnight. We know that the shortages are there in terms of programming.

We also know that there are communities out there who are waiting for qualified day care workers , but you cannot address this in a short period of time. We intend to do that, Mr. Speaker, and it will take us a little bit of time to do that. In terms of the northern residents of this province , again, if those needs are there, they have not been specified in a specific way. We know there are some people out there who require those programs and those programs will be provided as the needs exist and with Red River Community College here . AIDS Education Mr.

James Carr (Fort Rouge): My question is to the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach). The Department of Education last year released an AIDS curriculum to be taught in all secondary schools in this year. Can the Minister tell this House what in-service programs are to be provided in the next few weeks for teachers who will be expected to teach this curriculum? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education) : I will take the specifics of that question as notice, but I have to tell you that the in-servicing for the AIDS program went on last year.

Many of the school divisions and staff were in-serviced with regard to the AIDS curriculum and that kind of process will be ongoing this year as well, but school is just beginning . *

(1355) Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker, with a supplementary to the same Minister, and, of course, we are prepared to take it as notice if necessary. 835 Has the Minister accepted the program as written, or does he anticipate revisions and some rewriting? Mr. Derkach: Everyone knows that there is always new information coming to the Department of Health with regard to AIDS. The program is not one that is going to be stagnant and will remain in its present form forever and a day.

There will be changes made to the program as new information is received, and we want to ensure that the latest possible information is out there so that it can be provided for the students of this province. Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker , with a final supplementary to the Minister of Education. We are now only three days away from the opening of classes . Will students in Manitoba, in junior high and in senior high school , be given compulsory AIDS education during the academic year 1988-89? Mr. Derkach: As the Member well knows, the format of the AIDS program and the number of hours that it is to be offered in this

part icular school year were announced last year. No changes have been made to that particular program in the way it has been outlined to date. I have to tell you, Mr. Speaker , that before the prescribed number of hours of a particular program are given to a student body, we will ensure that staff are in-serviced for one thing , and we will ensure that program is available to all schools in this province . It is a very important program. Foster Care Telephone Survey Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): My question is for the Minister of Community Services (Mrs . Oleson).

On Friday, we heard from the Minister of Community Services about plans to continue with negotiations , even though fairly late in terms of the prices, and about a meeting for later today. You can imagine, Mr. Speaker , how disappointed all of us were when we learned that despite that promise here in this House, the Minister had proceeded with the directive to have a telephone survey of all foster parents in the province. Given the seriousness that situation has created , could the Minister please indicate in the House today who did the survey , how much it cost, and what the questions actually were? Hon.

Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Community Services): Mr. Speaker , the information is not all accumulated, so I cannot give her that answer at the moment. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: We are getting a little frustrated on this side of the House . Mr. Speaker: The question. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I asked a very specific question that I am sure the Minister must have the information for because she gave the directive .

Monday, August 29, 1988 Could the Minister please tell us whether the department did the survey or whether she hired a private firm to do the survey, how much it cost; and if she does not have the questions before her, then could she table the questionnaire or the list of the questions before the end of today's sitting? Mrs. Oleson: I will take the question as notice, and I would indicate to the Member that everyth ing is not complete yet, so I cannot give her a cost. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I have asked for some very specific information that must be at the Min ister's fingertips.

We would like to know, all of us on this side of the House, who was directed to do the telephone survey. Who did it? Could the Min ister please give us that answer? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member's question is repeating in substance a question which was previously asked and therefore out of order. The Honourable Member for St. Johns. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Thank you. lt is obvious, Mr. Speak er, we on this side of the House are being stonewalled about some very critical information. On an additional- Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please; ord er, ple ase. The Honourable Government House Leader. Hon.

James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speak er, on a point of order. I belie ve the Honourable Member was recognized to ask a supplementary question. We do tend to get into speech making in Question Period quite often in this plac e. I think the Hon ourable Memb er sh ould be reminded that Question Period is a time for questions. Mr. Speaker: Order , ple ase; order , please. The Honourable Member does not have a point of order. The Honourable Member for St. Johns, with a final supplementary question. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Thank you, Mr. Spe aker. I have a very simple question. Who did the survey?

Was it done by staff of her department? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member's question is repeating in substance a question which was previously asked and, therefore, out of order. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: At the start of today's Question Period, in response to another question, the Mi nister of Community Services (Mrs. Oleson) said that the survey was being done so that they could get some information.

Could the Minis ter of Community Services tell the House here and now what information she was seeking, and why she felt it was necessary to go over the heads of the Manitoba Foster Parents Association? 836 Mrs. Oleson: As the First Mi ni ster (Mr . Filmon ) indicated, when answering questions by the other Opposition Party, the questionnaire was done so that we would have a clear picture of where we stood if the unfortunate event occurred that we have a moratorium. Our main interest in this whole thing, our main concern is that children be looked after.

That is why we needed information with regard to contingency plans for a moratorium. * (14 00) Medi cal Records Privacy Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): My question is for the Honourable Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae). Last week in this House, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs) raised some very serious concerns with respect to the agreement entered into by this province with the Canadian Security Intelli gence Service on June 15 of this year. She pointed out some quite serious defects in that agreement.

Recently, various inter ested and knowledgeable groups in this province, including three hospitals in this city, have echoed these very serious concerns. The Attorney-General was quoted on the weekend as well, as stating that requests for medical data must get specific clearance from the Attorney-General or his Deputy. My question is very simple. lt is, simply: Where in this agreement is that protect ion afforded to Manitobans? Hon.

James McCr ae (Attorney-Ge neral): The Honourable Member made reference to the fact that certain hospitals-he did not mention it, but I think the Manitoba Association of Rights and Liberties are now echoing the comments of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs) from last week. lt is exactly what I said was so dangerous about the que stions raised by the Leader of the Opposition. The irresponsible nature of the questions has now got people -s he has accompl ished her goal. People are frightened, they are scared to death as to this issue. She has basically scared the daylights out of these people.

The specific question asks: What protec tion? I ask the Honourable Member to look at Clause 2 of the agreement which his Leader has so freely circu lated throughout Manitoba, I assume. lt states: "The provision of any information or assistance referred to in this memorandum are subject to all applicable laws, in clud in g The Free dom of In formation Act to be proclaimed on September 30, and to such terms and conditions as may, in the opinion of the party asked to provide the same, be required or imposed by that party." Mr.

Speak er, maybe the Honourable Member would like us to go back to where we were prior to June 15. At that time, we had an informal process whereby CSIS, in order to fulfil! their mandate, contacted whome ver, when ever. There was no protocol as to what information could be released or from whom it could be released.

Monday, August 29, 1988 The Memorandum of Unde rstanding now formalizes that process and sets out guideli nes as to who may release or what can be released. We now have protection that we did not have before. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speake r, I am happ y th at the Honourable Attorney -General lik es this agreement publicized. lt was, I point out, the Leader of the Opposition who did publicize it. In fact, going on from the first question,

Section 2 clearly does not protect the rights of Manitobans. If it is an internal directive, that is one thing. lt is not in this agreement; it is not in black and white. Further, by way of supplem entary question: Is the Honourable Attorney-General aware that, in addition to the Department of Health being on the fast track of release of information to the Canadian Security Intell igence Service, the Department of Labour, the Department of Ed ucation are also on the

Schedule A? Is the Attorney-General aware that this will allow the names of those who sign union cards, those who have public education records be available to CSIS on the fast track? Mr. McCrae: Mr. Spe aker, the Honourable Member is being quite offe nsive when he refers to fast-tracking the flow of information. In fact, he is being quite ridiculous, just as his Leader was last week. The agreement provides Manitobans with protection they did not have before the signing of the agreement. The Honourable Member refers to labour information and education information.

How many other things he can list off every single piece of information that might be available, but the fact is the information is not available unless certain conditions are met which do not invade the privacy of Manitobans according to

Section 41 of The Freedom of Information Act. If the Honourable Member could get it through his head that no requests other than requests regarding locator information shall be responded to without my office having looked into it, if he could get that through his head, he would understand and he and his Leader would stop trying to frighten the daylights out of Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. James, with a final supplementa ry. Mr. Edwards: I welcome that being put into this agreement. I welcome that, and I wish the Honourable Attorney-General would read The Freed om of Information Act.

There is an override for Governments. There is an override. lt is your piece of legislation. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Does the Honourable Member have a question? Mr. Edwards: My final question, Mr. Spea ker. I want to ask if the Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae) is aware that paragraph 7 of this agreement allows an amendment to be made where the parties mutually agree. Paragraph 8 of this agreement allows the agreement to be terminated on six months' notice.

Will the Attorney- General, given the very serious defects that have been shown in this agreement by not 837 just the Op position but by many of the most kno wledgeable people in this commu nity, will he go to CSIS and renegotia te this agreement to protect Manitobans? Mr. McCrae: it is precisely , Mr. Speaker , because I am concerned about protecting the privacy of individuals in this province that I will not reopen negotiations with CSIS on this agreement.

Section 7 and

Section 8 require just precisely the kind of protection that we need in an agreement of this kind. The Honourable Mem ber, like his Leader, is way off the track. Socia l Assistance Special Ne eds Al lowa nce Mr. leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speak er, would lik e to address a question to the Mi nister respo nsible for Economic Security in the province (Mrs. Oleson). Last week, the Min ister advised the House that she would not continue with the special payment to Social Allowance families for school supplies and clothing for their children.

This was a very experimental grant but it was very useful and very productive and, I would suggest, very compassionate. Can the Minister inform the House as to how many parents have contacted her office and her department, asking how they can buy school supplies for their chil dren without this special grant? Hon. Char lotte Oleson (Minis ter of Employment Services and Economic Development): Mr. Spe aker, I have not got the number at my fingertips but I could provide that.

I should indic ate that there was some confusion, as the Member alluded to, on why the one-time grant he did not refer to that just now, but that is what it was. lt was a one-time grant last year. I would also indic ate to the Member that we feel that doing it this way, by special memorandum to the staff and the giving of special needs grants, we are able to target the people who need it most on the social assistance rolls, and we are hoping that we can provide them with what they need. Mr. Evans: I thank the Minister for that answer.

I want to assure her that it was our intention to go and continue with this grant, and we would not have given up $5 million for the CPR in the process eith er. Can the Minis ter assure this House, because she referr ed-and I was not clear with her answer-can she assure the House that she has categ orically and clearly advised her staff that families should not be denied the use of the special allowances, and that the families should not be required to use their regular food money for this purpose? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, I can assure the Member that.

The directive was sent out, once more, to the department on Friday morning indicating that the people could access the special needs and not have to use their grocery mone y.

Monday, August 29, 1988 Mr. Evans: Will the Mini ster also undertake to have her department advise the 10 ,000 families in this province who are on Social Allowances that they are entitled to draw on some of this special needs mone y, and to encourage them to do so, and to ensure that this be a priority effort of her department so that the childr en, that all the families will know and that the children will be able to get their school supplies in time for the opening of school next week? Mrs. Oleson: A directive was sent to the staff.

The workers are to notify the people who are asking for help. lt is being done. lt is unfortunate there was some confusion at first, but I hope that has been rectified. PCBs Safety and Storag e Inspection Mr. Kevin lamoureux (l nkster): My question is for the Mi nister of Environment (Mr. Connery). Last Friday, he informed this House and this Chamber that PCBs were also located in the West on Yards. My que stion to the Mi ni ster is: As an ML A representing the riding in which the PCB inspection occurred, why was I not allowed to accompany the Min ister to see this boxcar? Hon.

Edward Connery (Minister of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health): I informed the Member that he was quite welcome to conduct a tour on his own. Mr. lamoureux: Yes, in fact, the Honourable Member did invite me to take it upon myself and go and visit it. I had asked him why, and he had said to me that the First Min ister (Mr. Filmon) would not allow any of the MLAs to accompany the Min ister. I was shocked to read in the newspaper on Saturday that the Minister requ ested from Mr. Norm Burke, a spokesman for CP Rail, to consolidate the two boxcars.

My question is: Which one of the two yards will the PCBs be located in? * (1 41 0) Mr. Connery: Our concern for these PCBs are, as you know, very real and very sinc ere, and the reason we invited the press to come on the tour was to ensure that the people of Manitoba would know what was going on, and it was well reported. Our staff and Environment Canada staff are discussing with CP Rail as to if they would consolidate and which would be the safest location, and Environment Canada people are investigating that now. Mr. Lamoureux: My que stion is to the same Min ister.

Does this Government have any alternatives, other than consolidating into the Weston Yards or the CP Yards in Transcona? Mr. Connery: The Member is quite aware that there is no way of destroying the high-de nsity PCBs anywhere 838 in Canada at this point. Alberta is looking at it. We are also looking for a way to get rid of these high-density PCBs because we are very concerned about their hazards to health. We are trying to find a way.

The Waste Management Corporation, as the Member knows, is in place and has a budget of some $4.5 million to look for a site, plus what other facilities we will have in place for disposing of it. lt is a high priority with this Government. PCBs Di sposal Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): My question is to the Minister resp onsible for Environment (Mr. Conn ery).

Given the fact that the National Research Council is saying that they will be in a position soon to lic ense out to industry a process for the effect ive treatment of PCBs, and given also the concern stated by the current high-tempe rature PCBs treatment plant, relative to receiving out-of-province PC contaminants, is the Minister familiar with the National Research Council's licence process and are any Manitoba firms being considered by the National Research Council as possible licensees?

If so, what steps will be taken to ensure such a licensed plant here in Manitoba will be licensed under Manitoba's environmental protection law? Hon. Edward Connery (M inister of Environment and Workplace Safely and Health): I think the Honourable Member is aware that the process that is available is a very, very expensive one. The information that I have been given by our department is that it is not likely to be used because of the high cost. Mr. Harapiak: My seco nd supple mentary is to the same Minis ter.

Seeing that it is not likely that there will be a firm in Manitoba that is licensed to deal with these PCBs and the only role that Manitoba will have is the PCBs will be transported through the province to a processing plant probably in Alberta, can the Minis ter assure this House that he does have or will have in place the necessar y procedure and regulations to cover the incr eased movements through our province that the National Research licensing initiative will create? Mr. Connery: I guess we are jumping the gun, because, as you know, Alberta has cl osed its borders to waste going into it.

Before anything like that would happen, we would have to have a location. We do not know if the Waste Management Corporation in Winnipeg might do it themselves. lt is possible we could be treating these in Manitoba. That decision has not been made. When the time comes, we will make the appropriate decisions. PCBs Transport Safety Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): The Alberta Minis ter of Environment has said that they would process the PCBs from Quebec if they were requested to. Therefore, they would have to move the PCBs through Manitoba if they are going to deal with it, so the borders are not closed very firmly.

Monday, August 29, 1988 My question is to the First Min ister (Mr. Filmon): Will the First Minis ter, in his capacity as responsible for the federal-provincial relations, ensure that he will ask all federal Mini sters and the provincial Min isters who are dealing with this issue that they put this issue on the table and deal with it before there are any PCBs transported through the Province of Manitoba? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I am quite happy to let my Minister of the Environment (Mr. Conn ery) answer the question, as he has done so well in the past.

I think that -(I nterjection)- I am sure that the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) enjoys reading editorials such as in the Saturday Free Press that talked about his knowledge and his contribution to environment in Manitoba. The fact of the matter is that this issue has been around now for almost a decade. Every jurisdiction is concerned about finding a way to properly treat PCBs. Every jurisdiction is concerned about transporting them because, back in the early Eig hti es, we were transporting PCBs to Alberta until they closed the border, until we had the spill near Kenora that made all of us concerned about it.

Trying to inflame this issue and create concerns in the public is not going to help. The reality of the situation is that we are taking a responsible attitude here in Manitoba; that is to identi fy all of the sources of PCBs. all of the locations at which they are to ensure that they are properly protected in storage until we can find a way to treat them. That is what we want to do. With respect to the situation of the potential of transporting them from other provinces through our province, we will ensure that we are made aware of every thing that is being proposed so that we can protect Manitoba's interest.

Some Honourable Members: He ar, hear! PCBs Safety and Storage Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Wolseley has time for one question. Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): Last Friday on national radio, Mr. McMillan, the Canadian Environment Minis ter, stated that incomplete inventories of PCBs exist across Canada. He also said it was up to the provinces to rigorously enforce federal guideli nes if populations are not to be endangered by PCB incidents. The question, Mr. Speak er, is what is the Min ister of Environment and Labour (Mr.

Cannery) going to do to improve the now inade quate information sharing between the federal and provincial Governments so that safety can be assured? Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health): I can assure the Member that safety has been assured at all times. We are working with the federal Go vernment, with Environment Canada. As you know, we are doing an investigation of every storage site to ensure safety. We will be addressing the concern. lt is a concern.

If there 839 are PCB sites that we are not aware of, we want to make sure that we have 100 percent knowledge of all PCBs stored in Manitoba. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The time for oral questions has expired. NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT Mr. Mark Minenko (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, I would request leave to make a non-political statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks have leave? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. Mr. Minenko: Mr.

Speak er, I would like to join with yourself this afternoon to welcome to the Manitoba Legislature, Reverend Romaniuk and Metropolitan Wasyly. Reverend Romaniuk, by way of introduction, was born in 19 25 and first was arrested in 1944, when he was 19 years old, in the Ukraine. He was arrested for national religious activities and sentenced to 10 years. Upon his return to the Ukraine from Siberia, he studied Theol ogy, and in 1964 became a priest in the Ukrainian Orthodox faith. In November 19 70, he wrote a letter in the defense of the Ukrainian dissident historian, Valentyn Mo roz.

A short time later, in Jan uary of 19 72, Reverend Romaniuk was arrested and sentenced to seven years imprisonment and three years exile. From 19 82, when he was released, to 1988, he was partially under house arrest and continued to serve as a priest in the Orthodox faith. He was allowed to come to Canada earlier this year, in Jul y of 19 88, and has chosen to live in Winnipeg. During his period of imprisonment, many people spoke out on his behalf.

Andrei Sakharov wrote, and I quote: "The fate of Father Romaniuk is a true reflection of the position of religious life in the Soviet Union." In October 1975, several other dissidents wrote to the West, and these included Orlov, Rodinov, Borodin and lvanov. They wrote and advised the world that Reverend Romaniuk had requested that he be provided with a Bible during his second imprisonment . This request was refused over some period of time. Reverend Romaniuk felt so strongly about this request for a Bible that he suffered through several months of a hunger strike. Mr.

Speak er, I would invite all Memb ers of the Manitoba Legislature to welcome Reverend Vasyl Romaniuk and his son to Manitoba, who have joined us, as well as all other Manitobans, to celebrate not only the Millennium of Christianity in the Ukraine, but also those freedoms which we all take for granted. Thank you. * (14 20) Mr. Harry Enns (lakeside): I wonder if I may also be permitted to make a non-political statement.

Monday, August 29, 1988 Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for Lakeside have leave? (Agreed) Mr. Enns: I welcome the opportunity of welcoming our visitors on this occasion . It remin ds me of a similar occasion some nine years ago when a fellow dissident in the same country of origin , Mr. Valentyn Moroz, was under similar circumstances and was welcomed here in this Chamber at that time by myself as a Minister, and I had the privilege of introducing him to the then Premier. Mr.

Speaker, it is inconceivable to all of us, certainly in this Chamber, and to all of Manitobans , Canadians, that people suffer imprisonment , harassment for such basic things as a request for reading a Bible , a Talmud , Koran. We hope, and I must say this , that it is seldom , I suppose, that a leader of a totalitarian state, such as the one that Mr.

Gorbachev leads, has the good wishes and the good will and the prayers of so many of the people that have the privilege of living in open and free societi es, that glastnost is indeed not just another slick Madison Avenue term for "new form of propaganda," but that indeed winds of freedom and of liberty will blow across that country . We, as a Government and as a people, correctly and constantly express our outrage at human rights violations wherever they occur, in South Africa, in Chile, in Nicaragua.

Our visitors today remind us of the constant and ongoing human rights violations that had been occurring for these many decades in that part of the world that many Manitobans , indeed a significant number of the Members of this Chamber, are only one generation removed. Thank you . Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): I would like to have leave to make a non-political statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for The Pas have leave? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for The Pas. Mr. Harapiak: Mr.

Speaker, we on this side of the House would also like to welcome Reverend Romaniuk to the Legislature and to Manitoba and to Canada . We admire the fight that Reverend Romaniuk led in fighting for seeking spiritual freedom for the citizens of the Ukraine, and I am sure that the prayers of Christians right around the world, along with the petition of Pope John Paul and along with the World Council of Churches, are responsible for the fact that Reverend Romaniuk was able to be freed and be here in Canada .

I am sure that the Reverend Roman iuk now has that Bible, that he was willing to risk his health for, to make sure that he was able to practice his spiritual beliefs. He undertook a hunger strike of three months , as you mentioned before, in order to fight for that spiritual freedom . I believe it is appropriate that Reverend Romaniuk would be here on the day that we are speaking on a private member's resolution dealing with the Millennium, celebrating the Christianity in the Ukraine . We wish him a long, healthy life where he can practice his spiritual beliefs . Mr.

Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): I would ask leave of this house to make a non-political statement . 840 Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet have leave? (Agreed). The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet . Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, in our gallery today are many of the organizers and volunteers of Manitoba's Four " P" Festival. The festival, which begins its seventh season this week in the communities of St. George, Powerview and Pine Falls, celebrates the importance of paper , power, peas and pickerel to the economy and lifestyle of northeastern Manitoba .

This year's festival , which involves hundreds of volunteers from the communities, will include a host of activities such as cultural events , sports , a market, tours of the Ab itibi Price paper mill and Manitoba Hydro's Pine Falls generating station, as well as lots of traditional French Canadian and Native Canadian cuisine. I believe that all Members will join with me in wishing the Four "P" Festival organizers and volunteers all of the best for this year's celebrat ion. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, I move , seconded by the Honourable Member for La Verendrye (Mr. Pankratz), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of Ways and Means for raising of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty . MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Ways and Means for raising of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks (Mr. Minenko) in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS INTERIM SUPPLY Mr.

Chairman, Mark Minenko: I now call this committee to order to continue consideration of the following resolution: RESOLVED that towards making good the Supply granted to Her Majesty on account of certain expenditures of the Public Service , for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March 1989, the sum of $2,626,074 ,640, being 70 percent of the total amount voted as set out in The Appropriate Act (1987), be granted out of the Consolidated Fund . The Member for Churchill. Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): Thank you , Mr. Chairperson.

Again not wanting to let an opportunity go by when we have the chance to discuss what has transpired with respect to the shipping season for the Port of Churchill this year, I have a few short questions for the Minister of Highways and Transpo rtation (Mr. Driedger). My first question to him is with respect to a request by the committee to meet with the Prime Minister, the Minister responsible for grains and oilseeds, Mr. Charlie

Monday, August 29, 1988 Mayer, to meet with a number of other federal Min isters in order to impress upon them the very serious concerns that we have, respec ting a lack of any movement towards a shipping season out of the Port of Churchill this year, and to lobby intensively with them with regard to having some action taken that will ensure that shipping season. I would ask the Min ister , and, in doin g so, ack nowledge th at we will have a mee ting of the comm ittee tomorrow, but ask the Min ister today if he has had any response back from the federal Government with regard to his request for a meeting? (Mr.

Deputy Chairman, Harold Gille shammer, in the Chair.) * (14 30) Hon. Albert Driedger (Mi nister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Chairman, I would like to indicate at this time that as the Mem bers of the commit tee are aware, we forwarded a letter of thanks to the senior Mini ster of the province at the federal lev el, the Honourable Jake Epp. Initially, the commit tee had decided that we would try and get the various Min isters to come and attend the meeting. We ponde red how to really eff ectively try and coordinate that and tried to make contact with each individual Min ister.

We felt that it would be maybe a long process until we finally got some response, a coordinated response, to the approach we took. We wrote a letter asking the Honourable new Minister from Manitoba, federal Min ister, to see whether he would coordinate that. That letter was passed down toward the end of the week and staff has been phoning today to see whether we can have any further response.

Unfortunately, I cannot indicate specifically whether we are on a "go" green light system for tomorrow or not, but 1 felt it was advisable that the commit tee would meet tomorrow and hopefully by that time I will pursue it together with my staff extensively , the fact that the request has been made. We want some indication as to when we can expect to have that kind of meeting. Mr.

Cowan: As the Minister is aware, the resolution which was passed by this House called for a delegation to meet with the federal Min isters, including the Prime Min ister, if in fact our discussions as a legislative comm ittee fail to result in immediate shipment of grain through the Port of Churchill. The other day-la te last week, actually-! forwarded to the Min ister of Highways and Transportation (Mr.

Driedger) a list of a dozen-or-so organizations which I thought should be invited to that meet ing to lobby on behalf of the Port of Churchill, along with representatives from the three Parties in this Legislature. I also copied that letter to the Liberal Memb ers of the committee. My question to the Min ister then is: Has he sought agreement from any of those organizations with respect to their attending such an all-Party delegation lobbying effort on behalf of the Port of Churchill with the federal Government? 841 Mr. Albert Driedger: I have the list from the Member tor Churchill (Mr.

Cowan), and I also had a list that my Director of Transportation submitted. We have not made specific contac t. I suppose I should apologize to the Member for Churchill that we have not made a contact at this stage of the game, but we felt that we wanted to see whether we had a date before we got everybody involved, and possibly I will be looking at that later on today to see whether we can make initial contact indicating what we are doing and then we will see what the response is to that once we have a date.

That is the uncertainty that we are trying to establish and we will try and have that established by tomorrow. The other thing I would like to indicate that when the comm ittee meets tomorrow, we can probably go through the list that I have, plus the list that the Member has presented, to see how large a group we really want to have meet ing with the federal Mini sters. I do not know whether it makes a big difference in terms of the results we will get if we have 20 or 25 people there.

This is one of the reasons why I felt that the comm ittee should maybe meet tomorrow at eleven o'clock to just pursue that and look at exactly what approach we will take. I hope to have further information and some kind of response from the federal Government by that time. Mr. Cowan: Mr. Chairperson, knowing that there are other Memb ers who wish to speak on this issue, I will close off my remarks, but I just want to, in doing so, encourage and urge the Mi nis ter to make that prelimi nary contact with those groups as soon as possible.

I have had discussions with representatives of a number of those groups and indicated to them that it was my unde rstanding that a request for their involvement in helping to support the Port of Churchill to obtain a reasonable shipping season this year would be forthcoming. They are awaiting that call, and even if the Min ister just addresses his remarks from a very general sense, in order to determine if they would attend such a meeting, I think that would be helpful for the work of the comm ittee.

I also want to note, with a great deal of regret, that here it is August 29 and we have yet to see any shipments being contempla ted for the Port of Churchill this year.

As each day goes by, the situation becomes more and more regrettable and so I can only, once again, use this opportunity to urge as much as possible that the Min ister impress upon his federal counterparts, his colleagues in Ottawa, that this is a very serious situation, that each day they do not address the issue means that we are less likely to have any shipping season out of the Port of Churchill this year, and that is totally unacceptable, I belie ve, to all Members of this House, but I know, for certai n, totally unacceptable to Members on this side of the House. We need action, we need something done now.

Time is passing by much too quickly at this juncture. So I would encourage him to contact those other groups to make our voice even more unified and even stronger, and to do so at his earlie st opportunity. We can leave the setting of the details with those groups to a later date.

Monday, August 29, 1988 Mr. Albert Driedger: I most certainly agree very strongly with the Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan) that time is of the essence and that we are running out of time. I have the commitment, I have been in touch with the various people, with the port manager. I have been making contact quite regularly with various people in terms of whatever more positive information is coming forward and, obviously, that is not the case. The time element is a matter of grave concern. If something does not happen within the next couple of weeks, if we start looking at the middle of Septemb er, Mr.

Chairman, and we have no commitment, and that is just a short time away, by the time we get the rolling stock going and the whole process in motion, it will take another two weeks. Then we are looking at the month of October possibly for a shipment or movement of grain through there.

The elements of concern that I have, for example, is that if something does not happen in the next two wee ks, then we are in a position where, to get all the rolling stock going for a short period of time, the costs are then escalated to some degree and the Wheat Board could turn around and say it is not economically feasible to do it this way. There are many factors involved and I just wish there was something more positive that could be done at this stage of the game.

I think there is genuine concern by everybody involved, and aside from doing the lobby with the federal Min isters and hoping to get some kind of assurance that if there is late shipment of grain through the Port of Churchill, that we could have some assurance of safety factors in terms of icebr eakers, whatever the case may be. A few other things. The time is so short, I do not know what is going to happen.

My understanding is, from my staff that have been in touch with the Wheat Board again, is that they have been very actively pursuing the possibility of a sale which would involve movement of grain through the Port of Churchill. I still hope that something will happen, but the time element is something that is a real problem. Mrs. Gwen Charles (Selkirk): My questions are to the Min ister of the Environment (Mr. Connery). Being the Member for Selkirk, I am very concerned about pollution of the Red River.

I think, from studies that have been conducted on the Red River, it is quite obvious now that Winnipeg, indeed, does pollute the Red River. Of course, this was brought to major attention this week with the incident with the gas in the sewer lines where sewage was pumped raw into the river along with the unknown substance at that time. My question is to the Min ister.

I would like to know whether he feels that The Environment Act now that is in place overrides the jurisdiction of the environment for the City of Winnipeg, and does the province have precedence to set the standards and quality for sewage disposal in the City of Winnipeg? Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health): I am informed that the Act is strong enough to do that. We are very 842 concerned with the Red River and the Assiniboine River.

Both of these rivers running through the City of Winnipeg are what I would call filthy rivers and our staff has been working with the City of Winnipeg for some time. The Member should know that we are not looking at a small simple resolve to the problem that we have. lt is one of a major, major magnitude. We would be looking at well over $10 0 million to correct the sewage problem in the City of Winnipeg.

While 2 million gallons went into the Red River-and I still defend the decision to do that, because had the gasoline got into the sewage treatment plant and then had an explosion, we could have lost the sewage treatment plant, plus some workers that are in there so while 2 million gallons is a lot, it can only be just a small drop in the bucket had we lost the sewage treatment plant. So I think that decision was right. There is no question that the river is badly polluted. lt is not drinkable; in fact, you are not even supposed to swim in it. lt is not a safe river to swim in.

So while we are addressing these, the Member needs to recognize that it is not something we can change ove rnight. lt is somet hing that has been there for a long time; it is going to take some time to correct. As you know, there are not storm sewers and regular sewer pipes. So when there is a big rain, the Member should reco gnize that often , if we have a cloudburst, the sewers fill up, they do not go through the treatment plant it goes right into the river now. That is not a very, very good situation.

To put in storm sewers and all of the other infrastructure that it would need to correct it, we are looking at a few years and many millions of dollars to do it. Mrs. Charles: I thank the Minis ter for that response and I am glad that he is aware of the pollution of the Red River. I would like to add to some information of that, and that studies have shown that there are viruses within the Red ·River that are resistant to antibiotics and that they can transfer their resistance to other viruses, so we do not know what we are growing in that river.

Also, the fact that according to some studies, there have been traces of the polio vaccine found in the Selkir k drinking water when it is on the river water . So I urge urgency in this matter of finding the funds for the City of Winnipeg. Certain ly, I realize the costs involved, and contr ary to many reports in the election, I did not put a dollar figure on that, but that we have to work towards some goal in creating a usable river and a safe river. * (14 40) I would ask the Min ister, in lieu of this incident that has happened this week ,

whereas-and I unde rstand the reason for pumping it directly into the river. I am not, in essence, disputing that decision. lt was sort of the better of two evils; I understand that. But the question is with the amount that I have heard that was probably dumped of gasoline into the sewer system,

Monday, August 29, 1988 should there not be some controllable sewage disposal within the city, hopefully , that tanker trucks do not pull up to these lone sewage areas outside, or sewer disposal sites outside the city, or within the ci ty, and just dump whatever they may in the re? Can we not have some controls on that, realizing that it is difficult to do, but I would hope there is some study being done into that? I guess my fear is that this time it was gasoline, but what if it had been some thing else? We are certainly discussing PCBs here. What if we had to pump those out into the river?

We did not know, as I understand, at the time we pumped it out, what we were pumping into the river, and we are fortunate that, as bad as it was, it was only gasoline and that we can live and the environment can live because of that. But looking at the worse scenario, what are we going to do to hopefully present a worse scenario possibly happening in the future? Mr. Connery: I am appreciative of the Member because we are seeing some sensible and realistic concerns being raised for once, and I appreciate the sensible comment.

We think the unmanned holes, or whatever you call them, the manholes that are there, they are unmanned. They are unstaffed and open 24 hours a day. So I agree there is a concern and our department is talking with the City of Winnipeg right now. My deputy was meeting with high officials at noon, for lunch, to discuss some of these problems. So we are on top of it. She says emergency or urgency; I agree, but realistically it is not going to happen overnight. The Member for Wolseley (Mr. Taylor) was on City Council, part of your own team, and did nothing about these unmanned holes.- (I nterjection)- Oh!

He is a little sensitive today about it, because what did he do for all those times on City Council? He did not address the environment issues that were there. That is an issue that should have been addressed. Your own Member did nothing to resolve the water problems in the Red River and with the city-just put sewage into it. So he is partly responsible for the problem we have. I hope now that he is in this provincial Legislature, he will turn and become part of the resolve to address it. Our officials are working with the City of Winnipeg. We have got to find a lot of money.

I guess we have to come up with some imaginative mind or idea to get the federal Government to do an experiment. As the Member knows, they are putting $200 million into Halifax to clean up the sewage there and it is called "petro poop" -is what one of the Min isters calls it. I am going to try to get something out of-this is what the Min ister, Mr. McMillan, calls it. We know there is a resolve, but it is going to cost an awful lot of mone y. So I appreciate the Member's concerns. At any time she wants to be briefed more on it, with what our staff is doing, I would be pleased to do so. Mrs.

Charles: One final question, and I will give leave to the floor. 843 I just want to make an overview in that I am bringing it up here and I appreciate this discussion that we can have in this House. I welcome the Min ister's first comments on that this is a nice way of discussing things, but unfortunately he had to bring politics into it and I regret that. I think cheap shots go on both sides.

I would like to ask the Min ister, because, as the Member for Selkirk, having been on Town Council in the past and having been a concerned environmentalist for the river, in particular, because of the need in our district both for recre ation, tourism and for the water needs, I would ask this Min ister if he could bring back to the House a report on what type of testing they do of the river; what qualities they look for in these testings as to minerals, viruses or any contents that they test; how regular those testings occur; and what perhaps we can look forward to as an improvement of testing from the river? Mr.

Connery: There are three levels of testing. The federal Government does testing basically at the border. The provincial Government does their own set of testing and so does the City of Winnipeg. The exact detail of what all they are testing for and what are their findings and results, I would have to get that information from our department. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): I would like to ask the Min ister of Finance (Mr. Manness) a few questions arising out of Question Period today. I am sure he has got the information.

What will be the funding level for the Main Street Project Inc. that has been funded by the provincial Government in the Department of Community Services and as yet not been informed of their budget levels for the '88-89 fiscal year? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): I cannot provide that information because I do not have it with me, and that information will be provided by the Minister during the course of her Estimates. * (14 50) Mr. Doer: I find that, quite frankly, a disappointing answer.

The purpose of this Interim Estimates is to determine the support of this House for the expending expenditur es in the '88-89 Budget in terms of a pro rated amount of money to deal with the various priorities of Manitobans; and to get, on one hand, an answer to a question, Mr. Chairperson, saying a couple of weeks ago that you would have to wait till the Budget was tabled, and now, two weeks later, getting an answer that you would have to wait during Estimates.

Quite frankly, it is our job as legislators, and inde ed you have pointed this out in previous years, and I can even remember the words that you have used in this House.

Chapter and verse, I do not have in my hand, but I know that the Memb er for Morris in Opposition, indeed, spoke long and hard about the resp onsibility of Mem bers of this Legislature to ensure that the numbers were there absolutely before this House should be asked to pass resolutions requiring money for groups.

Monday, August 29, 1988 So I would ask the Mini ster of Finance to tell this House, and indeed let the public of Manitoba know, are we voting for zero amount of dollars for this Main Street Project? Is it $10 or is it the same level as last year, which is $882,000, or is it an incremental incr ease in terms of that project, because we all know that there is merit and quality in the program it del ivers.

So I would ask the Min ister of Finance to undertake to provide that information to this House and I would hope he could provide it during this afte rnoon 's discussion of this very important financial matter, consis tent with his past words in this House about MLAs being accountable. Mr. Manness: Mr. Chairman, the power of the Leader of the NDP's argument is just overpowe ring. We will undertake to find out those numbers and present them as an open, hone st Government should, and will. Whether it can be done today or not is some what in doubt at this point in time.

I do not have those numbers in the back of my mind. I would imagine that the Leader of the NDP would fully understand why, and I will attempt to find them and provide them to the Mem ber. Mr. Doer: I would thank the Minis ter of Finance for that undertaking. Mr. Chairperson, I would ask, in light of this open, hone st position of the Minis ter of Finance-and I thank him for that-could the Min ister of Finance, as a Mem ber I would imagine of Treasury Board, please tell this House how much the survey is costing that is being conduc ted with the Foster Parents Association?

Was it tendered, and how much will it cost the taxpayers of Manitoba in terms of its cost to us and; fourthly, what firm has been given that assignment? I should point out to the chairman of this commit tee that when I was asked a similar question by, again, the Member for Morris on telephone surveys, I gave him the number, the tendering process, the criteria and the cost that same day. Mr. Manness: All of those answers will be provided in due course by the Minis ter.

As one understands, because of the events that took place in fast order toward the end of last week, that decisions were made very quic kly, they have not, in totality, been recorded, but they will be and they will be provided. All the detail that the Member seeks will be provided in due course to the House. The Member should realize, when he provided some of the answers with respect to the Manitoba Te lephone System, it was not on the first request that he did so. He looks at me with his eyes wide open, Mr. Chairman, but that was not quite the situation as I recall. So we will provide that information.

At this point in time it is nowhere in a presentable form because of the quic kness in which it developed just within the last 48 hours. Mr. Doer: Mr. Chairman, I would challenge the Min ister of Finance (Mr. Manne ss) to che ck Hansard, and he will find the first occasion I was asked to on that survey 844 that I did reveal the information that was requested. I should say that I had a very vigilant examination process with that former Crown corporation, for obvious reasons.

My que stion is a very simple question to the Minis ter of Finance: Was this survey conduc ted inside the department in terms of costs that would be contained within the department's budget already, or was it, the expenditur es for the survey, was it external to the Government? I can expect the Min ister would not have all the answers, but was it an inside Government department or was it contr acted outside? Mr. Manness: Mr. Chairman, let me say this about the survey.

Its magnitude in size was so limited that cer tainly there were sufficient resources within the Department of Community Services to provide for the survey. Mr. Doer: Does that mean that the survey was condu cted by staff of the dep artment or was it conducted by people hired on cont ract outside of what is considered to be emp loyees hired pursuant to The Civil Service Act? Mr. Manness: I cannot, in all hon esty, give a full response to that question. I am not certain as to the details. I can say this, though, that it was headed by somebody outside of Government. Who did all the work?

I cannot provide that information because, in all honesty, I do not kn ow. Mr. Doer: Is the Min ister of Finance not-if it goes outside of Government, is it not requi red by this Government to go to Treasury Board prior to contracting out of those monies pursuant to the Tre asury Board guidelines? Mr. Manness: Mr. Chairman, I remind the Leader of the NDP that there is a grave issue at hand here that required expeditious and quic k action on behalf of the Government.

The No. 1 issue here, and let me recite it on behalf of the Government, was the care and to have in place continge ncy plans in support of foster childr en if required, if moratorium action. That is the No. 1 conside ration, ind eed the mandate of this Government, to have in place. The dealing with the Foster Parents Association, unfortunately, but in all honestly , became secondary . and is secondary to the care of the childr en. The care of childr en always was and always will remain No. 1.

No. 2, when the Member seems to be talking about a large cost of su rvey, that was not, in any sense, required to do a survey. So the requirement-we followed the proper accounting positions. lt was outside led. To what deg ree it was supported by staff internally, maybe some political staff, I cannot say at this point in time, but it was done very quickly for the sake, again, of the foster childr en of Manitoba, and what set of circu mstances we may find ourselv es in in the latter portion of this week. Mr. Doer: I assume from the answer of the Mini ster of Finance that it did not go to Treasury Board and

Monday, August 29, 1988 we will have to await the other answers to our questions that we raised here today. One last question to the Mini ster of Finance-and I will not go into the discussion of Treasury Board and the ability of Treasury Board to walk around an item within half an hour, Mr. Chairman. We all know that goes on with urgent matters of Government, but it obviously didn't go to Treasury Board consistent with the Min ister's answers.

A last question to the Mini ster: I asked the question about the Anti-Poverty Group and its funding today in Question Period. lt is another group that is sitting on tender hooks in terms of its funding level. I think there are other Community Services groups, quite frankly, that are sitting on tender hooks. All of them were told that after the day the Budget was tabled, they would know what their funding level was. Now the rules seem to be sliding.

I would ask the Minis ter: Could he tell us, given the statement before by the First Mi nister that we would know the day the Budget was tabled, what is the funding level for the Anti- Poverty Association and can that organization please be informed so they can conduct their affairs, as we would expect to conduct our affairs, with as much information that is in the budget on the table so the y know what their funding level is? Mr. Manness: Mr. Chairman, we took the earlier question, and I forget from whom it came-it may have been the Leader-yes, it was the Leader of the NDP (Mr. Doer).

We took those questions seriously during Question Period and I have talked to the Min ister in charge. I can say this in general, and it will echo the statement and the answer given by the Premier , is that none of these organizations that have been mentioned have been put on the chopping block. As a matter of fact, since the Budget has been passed, through the last two occasions that we have sat on Treasury Board, a number of requests for grants for the rest of the fiscal year have come forward to Treasury Board and they have all been passed in due process.

So I make as a general statement this commitment: These organizations from the best of my memory have not in any way had their support reduced; and the general statement that was made earlier by the Premi er, I echo again: All outside groups, to the best of my knowledge, none of them have had reductions made, other than that announced last week by the Min ister in charge of Community Services (Mrs. Oleson), dealing with the Committee on Wife Abuse. * (15 00) Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Chairman, I just have to clarify some thin g the Mi nis ter of Fi nance (Mr . Manness) said.

I believe he indicated that he was prepared to see that that information was brought into the House today, the grants lists for the various departments. Mr. Manness: No, I am not unde rtaking to bring in the grants list today. I am undertaking to bring in 845 information dealing with the Main Street group and the Anti-Po verty group. Th ose are the specific questions. The grants list of Government, as Members will know, is that thick, that thick and eight-and-one-half by 14 - size page. I do not think it is our role today to present all that grants information.

That is part of the detail that is associated with the Supplementar y Estimates. (l nterject ion)- No, it is not in the Supple mentary Estimates in totality. I accept that, but it is there in part, and certai nly is available to be discussed through the various departments of Government. Mr. Alcock: I will endeavour then to narrow the Minis ter's search and re quir ement to bring forth information.

Perhaps if he would be prepared to discuss the grants that are indicated in their rolled up form, not broken out in terms of the individual grants, but on Page 66 of the Commun ity Services Suppleme ntary Estimates, if we could get a sense of the grants, agency by agency on that page, I think you will find it is one page of information, not many. If he could be prepared to discuss that in this House, Members on this side would certai nly appreciate it. The second thin g is on Page 55 of the same Sup plement, there is a list of Grants to External Agencies that we would also like the '88-89 levels for.

The two that the Leader of the third Party (Mr. Doer) referenced are in that. While I am on my feet, and I give that for information, if I could just ask: Is the Min ister of Finance (Mr. Man ness) able to and prepared to dis cuss the expenditur es related to Capital? Mr. Manness: Mr. Chairman, I am not, only because if we began to do that, we would be circumventing the very purpose of the Estimates themselves.

As the Membe rs are aware, capital draws its own vote within the Estimates process and at that time is when that detail should be provided, or prior to, shortly prior to, and that there should be a full and open discourse at that time on those capital items. That is the tradition of this House; it has been this way for years and it should continue that way. The Member should realize that he and all of Members of Opposition are afforded an opportunity to even pose these questions because of the set of circumstances that we find ourselves in with respect to Interim Supply.

I could say that if this Government had not wanted to bring In terim Supply before the House before seeking the support of the House before the end of August, we probably could have taken special warrants out for another month into Septem ber. That was some of the advice that we were given by some political foes, as a matter of fact. We chose not to. We are not seek ing final authority for the appropriations. As listed, we are seeking authority for 70 percent.

Traditionally, Interim Supply has been used as a basis to discuss policy area through all the various departments where the details, very minute details by department, have not been provided. I think, though, that there are some very specific requests that we will attempt to provide. The Member

Monday, August 29, 1988 for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) asks about page 66. Is that the page in the Estimates, or is that the Supplemen tary? -(I nterjection)- That is the Supplement ary. Okay. I am only troubled in the sense that I do not know how far that is into the Estimates of the Commun ity Services; but if it were, for instance, being dealt with tomorrow, that list I am sure would be provided whenever it is that we approach that vote in those Estimates. So I will attempt to see what we can do in that area, beari ng in mind th at the Mini ster of Commun ity Services (Mrs.

Oleson) is very much in preparation for a very important meeting at five o'clock today. Mr. Alcock: I must confes s-1 am a little confused. The Min ister of Finance, when we discussed bringing forward Interim Supply, said that the process allowed for the asking of questions. They are asking to expend money and should be prepared to answer questions on those expenditures. And now we are told, as we have been told everyt ime we ask the questions, specific questions, about the expenditures of funds, to wait for some other process.

I do not think that is necessa ry. lt may seem that there is little purpose for us to stand here and do this if answers are not going to be forthcoming. I appreciate the dilemma of the Min ister of Finance, that he is outlining, and perhaps I could narrow his search in terms of capital.

I am specifically concerned about the expenditur es related to capital in the Department of Health and I would like some specific answers as to the breakout of the $41 million that is referenced there, and I certainly realize he does not have it on him and I am prepared to wait until perhaps after adjournment tonight, between 8 and 10. We could discuss this then if he could prepare himself in that period of that time. Mr. Manness: I will attempt to reach the Minis ter of Health (Mr. Orchard). Never before have I seen capital expenditures come forward in Interim Supply in any department.

What I suppose makes the circumstances a little bit different this year is that we have a case where the budget is so late and ther efore Interim Supply is so late. But Capital Expenditures in almost every department certai nly Highways, all the way through- are always presented, provided to the Members by the Min ister, either just coming into that vote or the day previous to it. Without exception, that has been the order of busine ss in this House for basically six or seven years.

Therefore, I am going to leave it up to the Min isters to ultimately make that decision with respect to capital, in all fairness to them, and to the proper manner in which it is disclosed to Members opposite and therefore to the public of Manitoba. Mr. Alcock: My question is to the Mini ster of Environment (Mr. Connery). In his tour last Friday, I am wondering if the locations he visited included the Fort Rouge Yards-the CNR? Mr. Connery: No. We just toured the Weston plant and Manitoba Hydro. 846 Mr. Alcock: Can the Minister assure me then that there are no PCBs being stored in the Fort Rouge Yards? Mr.

Connery: There is a list being put together so we will know where all the sites are. They are pulling it out of the computer and it is a rather complex and quite lengthy document that is being put together now. Mr. Alcock: Would the Min ister be prepared to share that list with the House when it is prepared? Mr. Connery: I am not sure what Environment Canada officials will want to do. I perso nally do not seem to have a concern, but we also do not want to be getting a lot of people worried for nothing. There has been a lot of fear raised in this House in the last while that people are very concerned.

We are concerned about the PCBs ourselves; we are very concerned. We are trying to do whatever we can as a department to ensure that there are no accidents. But at the same time we do not want people being out there with great fear. Fear of the unknown is probably the greatest thing that they have. Mr. Alcock: Perhaps, if the Min ister would allow other Mem bers to accompany him, we could be part of the process of quieting fears.

I would just like to ask the Min ister a question about the new Environment Act and whether or not this Act makes it necessary for the City of Winnipeg to obtain permits from the department before they dump snow and other material removed from the roads into the river. Mr. Connery: As he knows, the Act is very new, and of course our staff are working with the City of Winnipeg staff. There was nothing totally put into place before the Act came in, so there is a lot of work which has to be done over the next period of time and our department is working with it.

But I would hope that Membe rs opposite, when they are made aware of what could be hazardous situations like the Member for Niakwa (Mr. Driedger), knew about the rail car in Transcona on April 7 or April 8, 1987, and there was nothing brought to the department at all that there was a concern. So, Mr. Chairman, you can see the concerns. I read with some amusement Bob Beaton's

article on CJOB Friday afternoon. In case some of the �em bers missed it, I will not read the whole thing, but 1t says: "lt appears there is more danger to the Manitoba environment from Opposition politicians than there is from their supposedly great discoveries and attem pts to em barrass Environment Mi nister Ed Conn ery. The danger is air pollution in the form of mi slea din g in formation which may be crea tin g unne cessary fears among some people." So it is quite interes ting. The information does start to come out accurately. * (15 10) Mr. Alcock: I am sorry th at the Min ister of the Environment (Mr. Con nery) finds this so humorous. 1

Monday, August 29, 1988 do have a specific concern, though, and I would like to give the Minis ter time- maybe he would prefer to take this on notic e- but I would like to know about the rela tionship between his department and the City of Winnipeg's ability to -(Int erjection)- May I proceed? Mr. Deputy Chairman: Do proceed, please. Mr. Alcock: Thank you.

I would like to draw to the Min ister's attention a situation that exists along the banks of the Red River in a number of locations where the City of Winnipeg cu rrently practises in the wintertime the dumping of large quantities of snow, which is removed from the city streets, down the river bank. This creates a number of problems in that it brings together a large amount of salt and other chemicals that are then dumped on the riverbank, killing the vegetation and increasing the erosion of the banks.

Past practice has been that the City of Winnipeg has gone the route of applying to the province for these permits. Now other provinces have decided to not grant them any longer. Given the strength of the new Environment Act, I am wondering what the rec ommendation of the Min ister will be this fall as we approach this winter season. Mr. Connery: 1t is an emission and, of course, The Environment Act really deals with emissions primarily. lt is a major function. That does not mean we cannot deal with other issues but it is mostly on the emissions side.

The sewage going into the Red River would be more along that line rather than what is going into the sewer, but we are concerned because what goes into the sewer eventually comes out at the other end and the Town of Selkir k gets it and the y are not very pleased about it, and I agree with them. We will be taking a look at this. We are concerned and it has been brought to my atten tion; we have discussed it. They are discussing these things with the City of Winnipeg. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that answer and I appreciate the Mini ster looking into that.

Can he assure me then that they will not be granting permits for the city to dump the snow on riverbanks this year? Mr. Connery: When we are prepared to make a statement to that fact, you will be the first to kn ow. Mr. Alcock: First to know? Mr. Connery: Sure, I will get right to you. Mr. Gulzar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Chairman, I have a question for the Mini ster of the Environment (Mr. Connery). Last Wednesday during the explosion, one of my constituents, Mrs. Bishop, was severely injured, and she sustained first and second-degree burns to her face and upper part of the body.

I am just asking the Honourable Min ister: Has he made any contact with this person and what kind of compensation will be available for this individual? 847 Mr. Connery: What the Member should know is that the resp onsibili ty-and of course it was the Winnip eg sewage system-so the respo nsibility would be to the City of Winnipeg. If there is litigation it will be to the City of Winnipeg rather than the department or the Provincial Government. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): I would like to ask some questions of the Mi nis ter of Hig hways and Transportation (Mr.

Driedger)-f irst of all, one dealing with the Port of Churchill. My colleague, the Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan), raised this issue again insofar as the work of the commit tee is concerned. I did have another question, another aspect of Churchill that has not been discussed in any great detail, although it has been raised occa sionally in the House, and that deals with the Churchill Development Board.

I belie ve the actions that were taken by Saskatchewan and Alberta to discontinue their sponsorsh ip of the board sent a very negative message to Ottawa at the time this occurred and was a serious blow to our efforts-and when I say "our," I mean all of Manitoba's efforts-to have Churchill expanded in its role insofar as the transportation, at least, of grain and potentially other commodities. I think it was a serious blow.

I would ask the Min ister whether he has had any success-fi rst of all, what efforts he has made with Saskatchewan and Alberta to have them restore that sponsorship of the Churchill Development Board in whatever form they may choose to do that? I recognize that this question was asked of the First Min ister (Mr. Filmon). He indicated that there was some prelimi nary discussion at the First Min isters Conference with Saskatchewan and Alberta, but those discussions did not really get anywhere because of other circu mstances that intervened. I do not think that is a suitable excuse for them not getting anywhere.

I think if they would have had the proper priority they would have received more attention by the First Mini sters in Saskatoon at the First Mini sters Conference. I would ask whether the Minis ter hi mself has undertaken any initiatives with the other Min isters, what the results of those initiatives are, if any, and what he sees happening with regard to the Churchill Development Board? Mr. Albert Driedger: I would like to indic ate to the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman), that was one of the first things that I was confronted with, the lack of support that was not forthcoming from Saskatchewan and Alberta.

In my discussions with the various Ministers from the other provi nces, from Al berta and Saskatchewan, over the period of time they have indicated that they are very supportive of the Port of Churchill. I think what happened is that in the Saskatchewan case -probably the Member knows, as well as I do, that I think the Government out there discontinued all third party grants and that is what this category came under. Unfortunately , through that confusion, there was no grant forthcoming two years ago. Then last year the Government of Alberta, fe eling Saskatchewan was

Monday, August 29, 1988 not supporting it, withdrew theirs. As I indicated in my discussion with the various Min isters, they seem to be supportive of the Port of Churchill Development Board. The Member asked what I have done? Aside from those discussions, I had slated a trip to meet with Min isters in Saskatchewan and Alberta. Unfortunately, it was at the same time that the First Mini sters meeting was taking place. Due to sch eduling, we had to abandon that, but with the und ertaking that our Premier will be raising the issue with the other two Premiers, which he has done.

I would like to indicate a much more favourable response than the Memb er has indicated. We have indications that there will be support forthcoming and, hopeful ly, we are waiting for submitted correspondence that will confirm the fact that both provinces will again be supporting the Port of Churchill Deve lopment Board because I feel they have a major role to pla y. I am hopeful that among maybe some other positive things, along with the negatives, we can probably be coming forward with a statement of some kind very shortly. Mr. Plohman: I thank the Min ister for that response.

I just want to emp hasize to the Min ister that the kind of support we get from Saskatchewan and Alberta for the Port of Churchill is like parenthood. For not wanting to use a sexist term, "motherhood and apple pie," I will say, "parenthood and apple pie." I want to make sure that I cover both sexes, so parenthood will do that. The fact is that over the last number of years, we have always seen this kind of support by these provinces in words but never in actions, and then finally, not even in limited funding.

A minor grant of some $37,000 in their efforts to reduce the deficits, as they said, certainly did not make a great difference to their overall efforts. I want the Min ister to be aware that no sooner had they indic ated to the Churchill Development Board in a prelimi nary way that the y intended to elimi nate that funding in Saskatchewan, I phoned the Min ister of the Day at that time, Grant Hodgins, for the Government of Saskatchewan, the Min ister of Transportation there.

I also wrote a letter that was taxed to the Premier and to the Mini ster following up from my phone conversa tion, telling him the impact that this would have on our efforts to expand the use of the Port of Churchill and empha sizing the dire consequences for Churchill that I felt would take place as a result of their discontinuing that funding. As a matter of fact, that was borne out. The mushrooming effect did in fact take place when Al berta simply discontinu ed funding because Saskatchewan had discontinued funding, that kind of an excuse.

I want the Min ister to be aware that he should not be-and I do not believe he is, but I want to make the point- naive insofar as the support of Saskatchewan and Alberta. They do not have their heart in it. Frankly they are not strongly committed. They provide lip service only and I think he should very strongly make his case. The evidence shows that they are very ambivalent towards the future of the Port of Churchill and I think we have to be very concerned and watch that very 848 carefu lly and make very strong repres entation, concerted representat ion, to reverse those decisions.

As a matter of fact, the department advised me that initially the sponsorsh ip of the Western Transportation Advisory Council by Manitoba was tied to Alberta's support for the Port of Churchill Development Board, and that is another issue that the Min ister might want to remind the Government of Alberta about, that inde ed they risk Manitoba-and, of course, the Min ister would have to make that decisi on- but the y risk Manitoba, perhaps discontinuing their funding for that B.C. based organization, WESTAC, when they discontinue funding tor the Port of Churchill Development Board.

I think that sometimes you have to apply that kind of pressure and I think that the Min ister should consider that. I want to raise it with him and ask him whether he has been made aware of the connection between the sponsorship of WEST AC and the Port of Churchill Deve lopment Board.

I also want to ask the Min ister whether he has received any indication from Saskatchewan and Alberta as to their position with regard to the Hudson Bay Route Association which has been traditionally sponsored by the three provinces as well as, of course, by many, many munic ipalities primarily in Saskatchewan but also in Manitoba and Albe rta. Has he received confirmation that indeed Alberta will continue to sponsor the Hudson Bay Route Association or is it indeed a fact that they have served notice that they intend to withdraw their funding after this year? * (15 20) Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman, first of all, I want to indicate to the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) that one of the things that I inherited with the ministerial position that I have is that I believe I am chairman of WEST AC and will have the privilege of actin g as chairman on the 13th and 14 th of September this year. I might have to go and get some advice and coaching from the previous Min ister who has played a role in that as well, so when he talks of horse trading, I hope it does not have to come to that.

I still feel positive that something is going to develop in terms of the Port of Churchill Dev elopment Board with the two other provinces in a very positive sense, but I will pursue that a little further. I would like to at this time indicate to Members here that Don Fegurski is the acting chairman of the Port of Churchill Development Board at this time and I am in conversation with him almost on a daily basis to get updated as to what is happening.

I think he has got the concerns of the Port of Churchill Dev elopment Board sinc erely at heart as well the whole Port of Churchill because having been the manager there for a long time. The one thing I would like to see and I would like to look at the positive aspect of it is that if the funding comes forward from the other two provinces that the Development Board, as well, may broaden their scope to include more than just the movement of grain through the Port of Churchill. That seems to have been the

Monday, August 29, 1988 concentration more, on the grain aspect of it, that we look at all other avenues. I would like to indicate that I have instructed staff to try and synchronize with the various departments so we do not work in isolation towards all potential uses for the commun ity and for the port, and to see whether we can synchronize some of these concerns. Ther e are meetings scheduled in the near future where we will be looking at various aspects of things that could possibly enhance the situation for the Port of Churchill. The one thing, Mr.

Chairman, that I would like to indic ate as well is that in my discussions with the federal Min ister, Charlie Mayer, at one stage of the game, I indicated what I thought was a positive, not for this year necessarily, but a very positive thing for the future where he felt that as the world situation changes, especially when it comes to grain shipment, that possibly the Port of Churchill will be a very, very needed commodity within five years.

That does very little to allay our concerns for this year, but to myself, at least, it indicated that there would not be a closing of the Port of Churchill, which is one of the fears that I had in my mind when we talked of not having grain moving through there this year. So the continued commitment of the federal Government in terms of doing the best proofing in there, the conversion of steam heat to electric heat, part of the subagreements which were set since'84, these were good subagreements, not all the monies have been expended.

We will be looking at trying to get an extension for one year under the agreement so that we can tie in a few of the other things because the monies have not all been expended. I believe, Mr. Chairman, the Member can maybe correct me, but I think that the conversion from steam heat to electric in the Port of Churchill was a new dev elopmen t that was not un der the subagreement.

But one aspect of it, which is the air terminal in there, which is part of the agreement, the air terminal is something that has not been dealt with and we are trying to pursue and push at that to see whether that commitment could be met as well under the sub-agreement. Large amounts of monies have been expended for the Port of Churchill in the various agreements and the y are good agreements. I would like to see all the monies expended in that direction because I still feel positive that there is a tremendous economic spino ff for the province.

I think that it is not motherhood, but parenthood and apple pie, so to speak, for our province. I think all Manitobans would want to see this thing go. I had the privilege, Mr. Chairman, of being up there just a week ago last Sunday when the first cruise ship arrived. The Minis ter of Tourism (Mr. Ernst) and myself were supposed to be there at that time, welcoming the captain. We tried to land at Dauphin and, because of a thunderstorm there, we had to, after a few attempts, abort that and the Mini ster could not come along with me, so I had the -(Interjection)- Well, we could not land in Dauphin.

So I had the privilege of being out there, meeting with the captain and the crew and doing a 849 few little presentations which were very well-received, and received the assurance from the captain that this is the fi rst cruise ship that had arrived at the Port of Churchill and that this would be an ongoing thing. We hope that we can enhance that. There are many other things that we are working on that are in the earlier stages but that are positive for the Churchill area. I think that, with joint efforts, we can make some good things happen in Churchill.

We are in an awkward position by the fact that no grain is moving through the Port of Church ill, and I do not know whether it will happen this year. That is, to me, a very serious thing but I think the fact that so far nothing has developed in terms of movement through there has raised our awareness of the Port of Churchill. This has never happened in the history of the port that there has been no grain movement through there, and it is a very concerning thing for myself.

I think everybody is starting to pay more attention to what the potential is in all aspects of it, so I think positive things are going to develop out of this. Mr. Plohman: I did not not want to get into a long wide-ranging debate, although it looks like that is what is happening, and I will confine my remarks to the questions that I had raised with the Min ister and he got lost insofar as the answers.

One was dealing with the Hudson Bay Route Association, again which would be a very strong, negative message if it is true that Saskatchewan and Alberta, particularly Alberta, intends to pull out of their support for the Hudson Bay Route Association. I would urge the Min ister to respond, if he can, to that, and also to indicate to him, if that is the case, that he make very strong and immediate repre sentation to Alberta that they should reverse any thought that they might have of pulling out of support for Hudson Bay Route Association.

I just want to indicate as well that I have very strong support for the work of the WEST AC. I do not indicate in my question that I thought we should pull out of sponsorship of WEST AC, but I did indicate to him that, initially, my former staff had indicated to me that there was a tie between the sponsorship of WEST AC by Manitoba and Alberta's sponsorship of the Port of Churchill Development Board.

I would indicate to the Min ister, as well, that if he is exploring broadening the mandate of the Churchill Development Board, by all means, if that will give an excuse for Saskatchewan and Alberta to restore their funding, repack aging it and saying, okay, the mandate is different, now it better serves Saskatchewan's interest or Alberta's interest, fine, if that will lead to restoring the funding, that is fine with me, although there was nothing preventing them from undertaking many of those expanded initiatives previously. I will not get into the funding of the agreement.

Of course, it was a good agreement and there were a lot of projects undertaken there, but I would like the Min ister to address those issues please. Thank you. * (15 30)

Monday, August 29, 1988 Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I did not mean to ignore the Hudson Bay Route Association in my answer. I guess I did get carried away a little bit in my general observations about Churchill itself. But I met with some of the directors of the Hudson Bay Route Association a week ago last Sunday when I was in Churchill. I was not aware that there was hesitation about further participation in there. I thought the members who I talked to were very positive.

But I will assure the Member that I am going to acquaint myself, I will check to see whether there is any hesitation on participation in that direction. If there is, I will follow his advice and I will make contact. I will do every thing I can to keep the Hudson Bay Route Association going. If need be, I will bring the matter back before our comm ittee that was struck, all-Party comm ittee, to see what course of action has been taken, if that is the case that they they are hesitating. I want to assure the Member I was not trying to evade the question. I just overlooked it here.

I appreciate any comments and suggestions that he can make. (Mr. Chairman in the Chair.) Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, with my final question it deals with a slightly different area in transportation that deals with the communique that was put out by the First Min isters in Saskatoon as a result of the meetings there. There was a

section on transportation that dealt with, among other things, the issue of a national highways policy, a requirement that the federal Government has, I bel ieve, in Canada to fund, in an equitable fashion across Canada, interpro vincial highways. We had indicated when in Government, on many occasions, that this was required and had actually led the initiative to have this raised in terms of profile by all provinces, to have an equitable federal policy and funding mechanism for highways. I just want to ask the Min ister of Highways and Transportation (Mr.

Driedger) what progress has been made, other than the fact that it was discussed and included in the communique by the First Mini sters, which is a substantial step forward, I belie ve, a very significant step. What indic ation does he have that there may be some action forthcoming in the very near future for highways in Manitoba and right across this country through a national highways polic y? Is it actively being developed at the present time? Can we expect some funding for Manitoba's interprovincial highways? Mr.

Albert Driedger: First of all, I want to indicate to the Member that I felt very encouraged by the fact that there was that communique sent by all Premiers at the Premiers Conference, indicating that there should be a national hi ghways program. I am sure my predecessors, both of them, have always looked at the aspect or the possibility of getting cost sharing from the federal Government in terms of our highway system. Incide ntally, I might add that I think Canada is the only developed country that does not have a federal highways program or a national highways program.

So I think that, with the encouragement that the Premiers have forwarded, there are many factors entering into this situation at the present time. I had a meeting with 850 TI DAC today. I have asked for their support in terms that is a committ ee that advises the provincial Min ister as well as the federal Minister-and I have asked them to relay that message on.

I had the occasion, when I met with the federal Mi nister of Transportation, Benoit Bouchard-1 have had two meetings with him now; I feel I have a good relationship with him-on each occas ion, I have asked him about the participation in terms of national programs. For fear of being long winded, Mr. Chairman, but I think it is important to indic ate that, over the period of years, we have had sort of a knee-no, I should not call it a knee-jerk reac tion, but a sporadic reaction in terms of cost sharing on some of the programs. In the Sixties, we had the Trans-Canada Highway which was cost-shared in stages.

We have had a few other ones, ad hoc, so to speak. We have had the program on the Ye llowhead , which is cost-shared between the four different provinces in the West. Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta each get a portion of the mone y, and British Columbia gets the biggest portion of it.

When we consider the fact th at our Maritim e Provinces have been able to garner a lot more support in that direction, when you consider that Quebec has uniqu ely managed to make some very beneficial arrangements for them, then I think it is very important that we get, in view of the fact that we have established national transportation routes within the various provi nces now across Canada, to ge t un iform regulations.

We have established them in Manitoba, and invariably, the routes that we have established, we will have to spend excessive money in terms of just strengthening our highway program and our structures. I would like to indicate that we have a structure at the west end of Portage here, at the Perimeter and Portage, that my staff tells me the structure is not strong enough to carry the kind of expanded load limits that we have allowed on our national transportation routes.

If somebody is inter ested, I can indicate, they can come to my office and I will show them which routes are designated, but in the particular case of the one at the west end of Portage, the cloverleaf over there, we have to do a detour around that because it is structurally not sound to carry those kinds of weights, and it is a scary thing. But when we have this kind of a national onus coming down in terms of-and you know, we want to improve our transportation systems.

Especially , I think it is pertinent for Manitobans to have that because we are the major transportation city in the country, so to speak, or the western provinces maybe. So I feel encour aged by the Premier's (Mr. Filmon) position. I feel encouraged by the federal Min ister's position, by the support that I am trying to garner in terms of getting cost-sharing on some of the major routes that take place because the costs are phenomenal.

When you consider the amount of money that it would cos t-1 use as an example, to finish twinning Highway 75, it would be close to 100 million -i t is virtually impossible for a province like ours, with the kind of budget we have in Highways, to unde rtake these programs. That is one project.

Monday, August 29, 1988 When we talk of the project, the cloverleaf at the west end and Perime ter that I referred to, the cost of replacement would be $3.5 million when you start looking at all the work that has to be done. The north Perime ter has not been finished. I mean, there is an area there that is going to cost a phenomenal amount of money to do it now. Unfortunate ly, some of these things could have been a lot cheaper if they had been done earlier. But we are looking at such a wide ranging program of projects, you know-the No. 9 to Selkir k.

I could go on and on of projects that are just phenomenal in terms of costs and there has to be more money. So I will do every thin g I possibly can to get participation from the federal Government in terms of cost-sharing on some of these programs. Mr. Herold Driedger (Niakwa): I have several questions for the Mini ster of the Environment (Mr. Con nery). By way of prefatory remarks to introduce the subject of my question, I just wish to draw his attention once again to the comment he made about my being aware of the PCB car at the North Transcona Yards a year ago. I have to say I was.

I got my information from the Manitoba Environmental Council, the minutes of which are routinely passed on to his department. So I was under the impression that he, too, knew about these particular PCBs. That was the only location that I was familiar with, and when you have a situation where you do not know how to proceed, sometimes it requi res an incentive from another part of the country to actually draw your attention to the situation.

We find that the fire in Montreal, which created the dangers of the dioxin cloud, the pollution that way, that actually precipi tated action at this point where we can now say we can do something about it.

But what we have here is a case where different regulations and different departments end up having some rules which govern their behaviour, or govern some regulations which they, in their way of thinking, are perfectly safe and perfectly correct, and probably in most cases are, but we have in this province a new environment Act and part of the reason for this Act coming into place is the fact that we no longer have a situation where environment is only emissions through smokestacks or through sewers, but rather there is also a case where the environment now has to be looked at as whether or not it can sustain the population or sustain the use to which we want to put that particular environment.

We have to work with it, not against it; and in that respect, I wish to ask the Environment Minister whether or not the new Act should not be expanded a little bit in the Class 2

section which involves the modification of drainage of ditches to either drain water off fields, or off bogs, and into rivers for final discharge into lakes, whether the actual area that is im pacted by th ese small projects should not be in creased. Right now, apparently, anything less than 50 acres becomes somet hing that is not included as a Class 2 development and every thing, unfortunately, that involves water drainage ends up becoming a case of environmental impact. Mr. Connery: I think you will find that basically where the detail comes is in regulation.

The Act gives you the 851 broader sense of it, but it is in the detail of the regulation where you get down to the nitty-gritty of a lot of these things. I have read the Act, I have gone through it two or three times to familiarize myself with it, and I am comfortable with the way it is set up at the moment; but we find out as time goes by-and it is only a new Act, it has only been in place since March 31.

We have not had time to see some of the pitfalls that are in it and there is no question that we are going to find, anytime you have new legislation, new regulation, it takes a little time to find out where the pitfalls are and where the problems are that people cannot live with or find it excessive or maybe not even severe enough. So it is going to take a little bit of time before we really know how it works. * (15 40) Mr.

Herold Driedger: With that in mind, the fact that the Act will grow as we find out whether or not the new uses that we put to it, or the regulations are either correct or not correct, or could be expanded, have you, in your reading of the Environment Act, done any thinking with respect to the problem of jurisdiction?

The munici palitie s and municip al councils have jurisd iction over certain aspects with small-scale projects and sometimes these particular projects, which they can engage in, end up conflicting with provincial not necessarily guidelines-but regulations which, if they had had to make some sort of clearance through by the provincial guidelines, might end up in preventing them from creating a potentially dangerous situation. Mr. Connery: Once again, I think it is too early to tell and, as you know, regulations and legislation are inter preted also.

I guess it depends on who is administering it, how severe you administer regulation or legislation and how much common sense you use. Unfortun ately, I have never found a piece of legislation th at ever had the words "common sense" in it. Governments do not seem to function too well with that in mind. lt is too early for me to think that we need to make any changes. lt has got to have a little bit of lifetime. These concerns have not been brought to me. If the re are concerns, the R.M.s would be quite happy to discuss them with them. As you know, legislation does grow and build as you mentioned.

This one will grow or go backwards if we find that we have done some excesses. This Act, coming into place on March 31 , has created some problems with golf courses that were already started under the old Clean Environment Commission and then all of a sudden a new Act comes into place and they are being forced to go by the new Act. 1t has created some concerns for me and for some developer . I think we are working around those also. Mr. Herold Driedger: On that very same thought then, I suppose this is a problem that essent ially developed over the past little while with respect to a specific drainage ditch.

I do not really wish to go into details because I know it crosses over the different parts of the Act and different regulations.

Monday, August 29, 1988 We have a situation now where essentially rectification may cause subsequent problems downstream. I am thinking specifically-you probably are familiar with this because these people will have been in contact with you no doubt as well. lt is the Dalla s-Red Rose area, a drainage ditch which, by virtue of the fact that it has drained certain farm lands, ends up flooding the land of a particular family. This family is actually quite upset about the fact that their land is now flooded.

However , if we decide to rectify this either by cleaning out the ditches to sort of allow more water to flow past, drain more quic kly, we end up just having problems with discharge into, say, the Fisher River. The discharge into the Fisher River is downstream of the Peguis Reserve. When this discharge ends up moving into this river, it actually creates a ponding effect which will back up waters onto the reserve. We have had a situation several years in a row where Chief Stevenson has complained about flooding and they even had to evacuate people to Gimli because of this.

The only reason I bring this up is to emph asize the fact that we have here a small-scale project which is not supposed to cause any problem creating quite the severe environmental impact. 1t just might require some either corrective action or might require some corrective investigation. Mr. Connery: Of course, what this really is saying is that we need to do better environmental impact studies before we start to proceed.

All over the province, we have some of these very same concerns where a band aid approach, just fix a little problem here and a problem there, in the long run created a much more severe problem. You are quite familiar with the Whitemud River and the fact farmers went and sued the Government because of the water being drained down through and drowning them out. So often when we band aid, we start at the top end of the scale rather than the bottom end and working up. Obviou sly, the impact studies that need to be done are very in-depth ones.

We have got to watch out that we are not impacting on somebody downstream. There is a whole lot of these. This is not the only one, there are quite a few. There are some major proble ms that have to be correc ted. Our department is addressing them. If this one is brought to my attention or if they want to, I would address it with our department. Mr. Cheema: My que stion is for the Honourable Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae). My Leader and our Party were shocked by this story on CSIS and their ability to access confidential and very personal medical records.

Over the wee kend, I had conta ct with a lot of patients and a lot of professionals and they are shocked why this decision was made. Ehat precaution has the Min ister taken to guarantee that this information is not abused? Hon.

James McCrae (Attorney-General): I appreciate what causes the Honourable Member to rise in his place and ask this question today, and I appreciate the importance of the issue and seeing to it that all the 852 myths with regard to the Me mo randum of Understanding between the Government of Manitoba and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, that all those myths are dispelled and that people in Manitoba are assured in the most precise terms and in the most effe ctive possible way that under no circums tances, as a result of the agreement signed on June 15, are the medical records or any other records of Manitobans in any way under any easier scrutiny by CS IS than that scrutiny that was available prior to June 15 .

In fact, I would like to assure the Honourable Member that, as a result of the agreement, there is put in place a process whereby the matters of information requests are dealt with. * (15 50) Previous to June 15, as I said earlier today, there was an informal process followed whereby CSIS could conta ct whomever or whene ver . I resisted the temptation to use the expression "loosey-goosey" but I think, in this forum this afternoon, it is probably a pro

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-25a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 25a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e65a9342b79e3860fb35364f355052ce9e407c62

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