April 21, 2004 Alberta Hansard 939 Legislative Assembly of Alberta Title: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 1:30 p.m. Date: 2004/04/21 [The Speaker in the chair] head : Prayers The Speaker: Good afternoon. Let us pray . We gi ve th anks for our abundant ble ssings to our province and ourselves. We ask for guidance and the will to follow it. Amen. Please be seated. head : Introducti on of Visit ors Mr. Shariff: Mr. Speaker, the Royal Ca nadian Legion’s Alberta- Northwest Territories Command takes a keen interest in promoting the value of good citizenship among young people throughout t he province.

The Legion is in partnership with the Legislative Assem- bly Offi ce in a prog ram tha t refle cts that g ood work. I t is Mr. Speaker’s MLA f or a Day . We ar e very appreciative of both the Legion’s financial support and their involvement for this annual event. In your ga llery are Lenore Schwabe, command vice-presi- dent, and her mother, Mrs. Cecile Boyer, a life-time member of the Royal Canadian Legion. I would now invite our guests to rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of this Assembly. Mr.

Speaker, I am a lso pleased to introd uce to y ou and to all members th e 30 students participating in your MLA for a Day program. Our shadow colleagues are seated in both galleries today. They are accompanied by their Legion chaperones Dutchy Enders and Gord McDonald. I would now ask them to all rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of this Assembly. head : Introduction of G uests The Speaker: The hon. Solicitor General. Mrs. Forsyth: Yes. Hi , M r. Sp eaker. Thank yo u. I h ave two introductions today, actually.

First, it is my pleasure and privilege to introduce to y ou and through y ou to all the m embers of the Assembly several valued staff members who are participating in a public servic e orientat ion tour today . These staf f me mbers a re dedicated public servants who provide human resources services to both the Solicitor General’s department and the Justice department. Would the fo llowing please rise and t hen we w ill give them the warm we lcome f rom the A ssembly: A lissa Kla pstein, Dia nn Connelly, Claire Paterson, Valarie McLeod, and Cindy Christman. I’ll ask everyone to give them the warm welcome.

The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Learning. Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It’s my pleasure to introduce to you and t hrough y ou to all members of the Assembly former Alberta competitors and trainers from the 2003 WorldSkills competition and representatives of Skills Canada Alberta.

I would like to introduce Bob Patterson from Drayton Valley, who competed in industrial w iring; Kirk Quast f rom Bassano, who c ompeted in machining; Kirk’s t rainer, Mik e Desja rdins, instructor a t the Southern Alberta Institute of Technology; Chad McConnell, trainer for Auto Serv ice Worl d, who is a trainer and was also a team member at the 36th WorldSkills competition in Seoul, South Korea; Guy Brookes, who is a trainer for the plum bing competitor Mar k Chupik and is also an instructor at SAIT; Brian Pardell, who is the executive director of Skills Canada Alberta; Chris Browton, who is a communications co-ordinator for Skills Canada Alberta; and Karen Fetterly, program manager for Alberta Learning.

Mr. Speaker, before I ask everyone to acknowledge them, I will just put a plug in that Calgary has been chosen for a representative for Canada to compete for the 2009 WorldSkills Competition, and we will be putting forward this bid on May 10 in Hong Kong. I would ask everyone to rise and receive the warm welcome of the Legislative Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Little Bow. Mr. McFarland: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s a pleasure today to introduce to you and t hrough you to me mbers of the Assembly a constituent from Coaldale. Mr. Peter King has brought his daughter Christa to be your MLA for the day.

Peter has been in Coaldale for seven years, met the Pre mier a couple of years ag o, has a general contracting business, NCA Development, and also operates, along with his wife and three children, Garden Grove Mobile Home Park. I would ask Mr. King in the members’ gallery to please rise an d receive the warm welcome. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Mountain View. Mr. Hlady: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It gives me great pleasure to introduce to you and through you to members of the As sembly an old friend and past president of my constituency association, who is just finishing his articling as a lawyer.

His name is Bill Smith, and I’d ask him to please r ise and re ceive the warm welcome of the Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Children’s Services. Ms Evans: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. We are honoured today to have in o ur members’ gallery, I believe, 33 visitors from Strathcona Christian Academy. They are attended to by their teacher and group leader Mr. Doug Zook . If they would rise, please, and this House give them the warm welcome that they so richly deserve. head : Oral Quest ion Peri od The Speaker: First Official Opposition mai n que stion. The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition.

Automobile Insurance Rates Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Albertans can’t wait for lower auto insurance rates. While the government continues to fumble this issue, Albertans pay t he highest auto insuranc e premiums in th e west. An Alberta Liberal government would have solved this issue by now through our public auto insurance plan. To the Premier: why is the governmen t locki ng in t he highest auto insuranc e rates in Alberta history for another 15 months w hile it di thers on auto insurance reform? Mr. Klein: Well, Mr. Speaker, we are not dithering. You know, it’s really time the hon.

Leader of the Official Opposition started telling the truth – dithering – and stopped using controversial and confron- tational and i nflammatory a djectives to descr ibe gove rnment programs. Quite simply, our government insu rance program is to lower rates – lower rates for young, good male drivers; lower rates for olde r good ma le driver s – penaliz e those w ho are bad, a nd reasonably compensate those who are injured in accidents.

Alberta Hansard April 21, 2004940 Dr. Taft: Well, d oes the Prem ier really believe that a 5 per cent rollback will compensate for average rate increases of 59 per c ent since March 2002? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, I’m not going to get into comparing apples and oranges and pears and grapefruits and all of those other things.

I will say, however, that this government took very proactive action to address an issue that had been brought to our attention not only by young good driver s who w ere being severe ly pena lized but by employers, especially small business employers, people who wanted to employ summ er students , for insta nce, but couldn’ t, if the se people were required to drive, because of the high insurance premiums they would have to pay. So we have done a commendable job on behalf of the people of this province to address an issue. It was us, this government, that addressed the issue, not the opposition.

The opposition only picked it up and started to complain and natter ab out it once we started to deal with the issue. 1:40 The Speaker: The hon. leader. Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, if it’s not dithering, then will the Premier tell us exactly when the new insurance grid will be implemented in Alberta? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, obviously, the hon. Leader of the Official Opposition is focusing on media reports that surfaced as a result of the SPC meeting last night. Relative to the time frame as to when the whole thing unfolds, I’ll have the hon. Minister of Finance respond. Mrs. Nel son: Mr.

Speaker, clearly, we’ve said all along that w e would put forward a packag e that addres ses the is sues that w ere raised by Al bertans: f irst of a ll, having an acce ssible in surance package, one that’s affordable and one that’s comparably priced, that meets the needs o f Albertans. We will have that pa ckage mov e forward this summer. The Speaker: Second Official Opposition main question. The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. Calgary Courthouse Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Well, it looks like public/private partnerships, or P3s, will work for this government very much like a government credit ca rd: the governm ent will spend now; t he taxpayers will pay later. The clearest example of this so far is the Calgary courthouse P3, which was first estimated at co sting $ 150 million, then $300 mil lion, and now half a billion dollars. To the Premier: given that the government was so sure that P3s would save money, how could it let the cost of its flagship P3 project spin so far out of control? Mr. Klein: Mr.

Speaker, first of all, this had nothing to do with P3s or any other form of construction. Had the government decided to go on it s own on t his parti cular pro ject, the co sts would h ave escalated. We are revisiting the proje ct to bring t he costs back in line. Now, if the Liberals, who are complaining now about this project, want to s pend $500 mill ion, well, let them do it. T hat is their nature – spend more, spend more, spend more –

whereas this government will re visit a pr ogram, bring it bac k, scale it back t o something that is reasonable, and even at the reduced scope we are confident we can build an excellent facility that attends to the needs of Calgarians and consolidates the Provincial Court and the Court of Queen’s Bench. Dr. Taft: Well, why is this government even considering providing public financing – a taxpayer loan, for heaven’s sake – to its private partners in the Cal gary courthouse, as the Premier indicated yesterday? Mr. Klein: Well, Mr. Speaker, I don’t know where the hon. member is getting his information.

No decision has been made. We’re in the process of evaluating the project. This is so typical – so typical – of the Liberals: if someone w as thinking about it or if so meone wa s thinking out loud or someone suggested th at that m ight be ap- proached, then it bec omes government polic y. Yo u kn ow why? Although it isn’t government policy, it makes for a good 15-second sound bite, and that’s all they are concerned about. The Speaker: The hon. leader. Dr. Taft: Thank you.

Well, unt il this iss ue is res olved, will the government declare a mora torium on f urther P3s wi th for-prof it partners, given that they’re just a way to spend taxpayers’ money? Mr. Klein: No, Mr. Speaker. We will not abandon the concept of P3s.

We will continue to abide by our policy, and that is that if P3s work, if they work over the long term – and you have to understand that we’re talking only about the construc tion costs; w e’re not talking about the long-term maintenance costs related to keeping up court facilities; we are talking about construction costs only – and in the short term , we w ill consider a P3 project. If it doesn’ t make sense, it will be discarded. The Speaker: Third Official Opposition main question. The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. Government Expense Claims Ms Blakeman: Thank you, M r. Speaker.

Tw o months a fter the Alberta Liberal opposition rais ed th e iss ue, the gov ernment still won’t provide details on its spending on wining, dining, and travel. Yesterday the Premi er fail ed to expla in why he won’t s imply photocopy expense claims, receipts, and credit card statements his staff has an d sho w t hem to A lbertans. My quest ions are to the Premier. Ca n the Premier explain why he still ca n’t show us the receipts for a $26,000 trip to India in January, given that the federal government can provide detailed information on all expenses in less than three months? Mr. Klein: Mr.

Speake r, again they allude to the f ederal govern- ment. You know, I’ve had the o pportunity – let’s put thi s in perspective – to be on Team Canada trips. Now, if they want to have this government spend like the feder al g overnment, here’s an example of the Prim e Minister taking t he lead ca r, which is a stretched limousine, arriving in Air Force One or Two – you know, a great bi g A320 pla ne done up like a living room – le ading a procession, having all the roads blocked off, the Premiers following in vans, the Prime Minister taking a huge, humongous suite.

Oh, this is the way that these Liberals are suggesting we should spend. They’re saying that we s hould f ollow the example of the fe deral government. Well, that’s the way the federal government travels. Ms Blakeman: Again to the Premier. Why is the Premier making

April 21, 2004 Alberta Hansard 941 vague promises about re-evaluating the system when all he needs to do is tell his staff to photocopy a few documents and show them to Albertans? Mr. Klein: Well, I go back to what I said. I want this hon. member to stand up and s ay that we shoul d spend like the feds, like their Liberal cousins. I would lik e this hon. m ember to say that the Premier should have this huge, humongous A320 done up like a living room. I would like this hon. member to say that I should have a house like 24 Sussex and all the trimmings that go with it.

I would like this hon. m ember to say that the Premier should arriv e in a stretched limousine and ha ve all the mini sters follow in v ans. I would like this hon. member to say that I should have 25 or 30 or 40 security people around me, all at taxpayers’ expense. Mr. Speaker, th ey want us to spend like their Liberal cousins in Ottawa. Well, we’re not about to do that. The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms Blakeman: Thank you. All I’m saying, Mr. Premier, is: will you crank u p the photocopier and give us copies of your travel an d hosting receipts? Come on. Mr. Klein: Well, Mr. Speaker, again the same answer.

They would rather talk about $25 or $23.50 items or a $27 jug of orange j uice, which boils down to $2.70 a glass, than the multi, multi, multimil- lions of millions of dollars that are bei ng wasted by their Liberal cousins in Ottawa. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands. Calgary Courthouse (continued) Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Another week, another cornerstone of government policy crumbles into rubble. The centerpiece of the government’s P3 strategy, the Calgary courthouse, has been put on hold a fter costs soared 66 per cent hi gher tha n originally planned.

A fter months of hype about the a dvantages of P3s the government has finally had to face hard financial reality. My question is to the Premier. Will the Premier admit that the govern- ment’s P3 policy is in shambles as a result of the Calgary courthouse cost overrun debacle? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, it is so typical of both the Liberal and the ND opposition to pick out any little thing that is negative about any project. This is a major project; there’s no doubt about it. It hasn’t been a failure. We have revisited the project.

Had the government done it on its own, there was no guarantee that those costs wouldn’t have escala ted in the sa me w ay. A s a ma tter of fa ct, it’s quit e common in government circles that if they know that it is completely a government job, the costs go sky-high. 1:50 Well, Mr. Speaker, this person was on city council when the costs of the Edmont on Convention Cent re – or m aybe he wasn’t. I certainly remember reading about them going up and up and up and up and higher and higher and higher, and had he been on council, he would have sa id: oh, g reat; spend, spend, spend, spend more.

Because that’s the attitude. Mr. Speaker, as I said, the Calgary contract was a good contract, as a matter of f act, and when the Saddledome w ent $1 6 million – we’re not talking hundreds of millions of dollars – I put a stop to it. I put a stop to it . As a matter of fact, I said that if y ou want more information, here’s Tom Chambers’ number. He was the minister of public works for the government at that particular time and opened everything up relative to that particular project. So, Mr.

Speaker, when they want to talk about overruns, this hon. member, the ND member, the Member for Edmonton-Highlands, is the king of overruns. But he likes them because that is the way of the NDs. The Speaker: Hon. member, you rose on a point of order, but I think there was clarification that you were not a member of council at that time. Is that what the point of order is going to be? Mr. Mason: Well, subsequent things that the Premier has said. We may have a few mo re b y the ti me m y questi ons are ov er, Mr. Speaker.

Given that I got involved in politics fighting the Convent ion Centre and warning of cost overruns, will the Premier admit that he has nothing to tea ch me a bout fighting waste in governm ent spending? Mr. Kle in: Mr. Speake r, I have learned m ore about w aste in spending fr om t he Libera ls and the N Ds in my 15 year s in this Legislature than I’ve ever learned before. All of those lessons have come from the Liber als and the NDs, and tha t is how to spend, spend, spend, and spend more. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Mason: Thank you very m uch, Mr. Speaker.

Given that the courthouse is on hold and, hopefully, will be stopped altogether, will the government consider as an alternative to this project building a new hospit al for the city of Calgar y wi thout going thr ough the nonsense and expense of a P3? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, the two projects are separate. I will agree with the hon. member that a new hospital is needed in the southern part of the city. The Calgary health region is now working on a plan, a concept. It is the Calgary health region’s request that they proceed via the P3 process.

That project will be evaluated, and hopefully it will turn out to be a good project. We are very intent and ver y committed to going ahead with that project. I find it interesting, Mr. Speaker, because he said: put a stop to the courthouse. Put a stop. A ll you have to do is look at the Calgary court situation and you wi ll see a hodgepodge, really, of court facilities throughout the city to the point where the Provincial Court judges especially, who, I understand, adjudicate about 80 per cent of the cases, both criminal and civil and family, are absolutely cramped.

It’s costing the government, because we have to m aintain these facilities, a huge amount of money. So it makes sense to consolidate these activities. Now , if this hon. member wants to go dow n to Calgary and state publicly that this project should be halted, that there should be no consolidation, I would invite him to do so. Organ and Tissue Donations Ms DeLong: Mr. Speaker, April 18 to 25 is Nati onal Org an and Tissue Donor Awareness Week, and a number of activities are taking place in Alberta and across Canada to increase our awareness of this important issue.

My question is t o the Mi nister o f Heal th and Wellness. What is t he gov ernment doing to fur ther reduce the number of Albertans waiting to receive organ transplants? The Speaker: The hon. minister.

Alberta Hansard April 21, 2004942 Mr. Mar: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It is tr ue that the shortage of organs and tissues for transplantation is a long-standing problem here in the province of Alberta, but it is also a long-standing problem throughout Canada. Right now, Mr. Speaker, over 400 Albertans are on waiting lists to receive an organ t ransplant, and unfortunately every year some Albertans do not s urvive the wait ing perio d for that gi ft of life. Hundreds more a re awaiting tiss ue that ca n restore s ight, rest ore mobility, or improve quality of life.

Now, what the Department of He alth and We llness is c urrently working on, M r. Speaker, is a comprehensive and co-ordinated provincial system f or organ and tissue donation. An improved system to increase donation will decrease the number of Albertans waiting for a tr ansplant and improve the quality of life for those individuals and their families. We do need to make legislative changes to the Human Tissue Gift Act, that w as originally proclaimed some 20 y ears ago, in 1973. Policies for the new legislation have been drafted, and the process to introduce such legislation will soon be under way. Finally, Mr.

Speaker, my department is working with our tissue programs to improv e self -sufficiency in providing tissues f or transplantation. The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms DeL ong: Thank y ou very much. J ust one supplem ental. Deciding to becom e an orga n or tissue donor is a ve ry important personal decision, one that can have extraordinary results. What can Albertans do to increase their awareness and h elp reduce waiting lists so that more people who are ill can receive the gift of life? Mr. Mar: Mr.

Speaker, I will say this about Canadians and I’ll say this specif ically about Alb ertans: Al bertans ar e extra ordinarily generous individuals. Some 81 per cent of Canadians have indicated their willingness to donate their organs and tissues, but only 65 per cent of Canadians actually advise their families of their wishes. If there is one thing that we could do to help improve the donation rate for tissues and organs, it would be to do as I have done with my own family, and that is to indicate your des ire to donate tissues a nd organs. Automobile Insurance Rates (continued) Mr.

MacDon ald: Albertans can’t wait for lower auto insurance rates. If the government really cared about consumers and not just about the insurance industry, it would table its latest proposals in this Assembly this afternoon. My first question is to the Premier. Given that this government always discriminates against Edmonton, what proof does t he gover nment hav e that new drivers in Edmonton should have an entry-level prem ium that is $180 higher than new drivers in Calgary? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, they’re rehashing old, old, old news. The package went to SPC.

I would remind the hon. member that we are the government and we are charged by the electorate to deve lop policy, not the Liberals. The Liberals do not develop policy. We go through the process. We’re now in the standing policy committee process of developing that policy and finalizing that policy. There is a procedure that will be followed. It will go to cabinet and then caucus, and we’ll make a final decision, and it will be reported. 2:00 Mr. Speaker, as we g o through this process, we have to keep in mind what w e want t o ac hieve in the end, and w hat we w ant to achieve is commendable.

We w ant to achieve a premium rate for young male drivers, in particular, that is fai r. We want to create a premium rate for older male d rivers that is fai r, and as one of the newspapers reported, ra tes wil l genera lly com e down f or th ese drivers. We w ant t o m ake sure that those w ho are injure d in accidents are fa irly compensated, not over compensated but fa irly compensated. Mr.

Speaker, these goals, I believe, are com mendable goals and will not only enhance economic opportunities, particularly for those who operate small businesses and need young drivers to drive their vehicles, but it will also benefit the Alberta public at large. I can’t understand for the l ife of me w hy they are com plaining a bout something that is so good, that is commendable, and something that this government, by the way, saw as a problem and took hea d-on, addressed the issue, and brought a solution for ward or i s now bringing solutions forward. Mr.

MacDon ald: Again t o the Premi er: wil l the proposed auto insurance grid also apply to commercial auto in this province? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, relative to any details that might or might not come out, I’ll have the hon. Minister of Finance respond. Mrs. Nelson: Mr. Speaker, our f ocus has been on noncommercial vehicles, and we have been moving forward in that frame. We are not contemplating any further reform at this point until we complete this package.

Q uite clearly, we have t aken a l ot of tim e on this package because we’re determined that we will meet the needs of Albertans: one that rew ards g ood drivers, one that penalizes bad drivers, one that tak es the disc rimination out of the equation and provides affordable, accessible, and comparably priced insurance for all Albertans. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you. Again to the premier: given that the freeze has been extended until 2005, is this government just teasing the auto insuranc e companies and se cretly planning to im plement public automobile insurance in this province? Mr.

Klein: Mr. Speaker, I don ’t know if h e li es awake thinking about these things or if they come to him as dreams or nightmares and then he gets up in the morning and he says: I think that this is a good question I’m going to ask. I’ve often said that one of the most difficult things in politics is to provide intelligent answers to stupid questions, and I’m stumped. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Grande Prairie-Wapiti, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Mr. Graydon: Well, I hope I don’t f all under tha t category, Mr. Speaker. Educational Opportunities in Northern Alberta and B.C. Mr.

Graydon: Earlier this week the Minister of Learning and the B.C. Minister of Advanced Education met with the presidents and board chairs of 16 colleges, institutions, and universities to discuss ways that their ministries can further educational opportunities in the northern areas of the pr ovince. My quest ions today are for the Minister of Learning. What objectives were identified as a result of this meeti ng, and how can th ey ben efit A lberta’s postsecondary students?

April 21, 2004 Alberta Hansard 943 The Speaker: The hon. minister. Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. As a result of the B.C./Alberta cabinet meeting that took place in t he fall, we w ere tasked by our Premiers to go forward and come up with ways that we can co-operate a nd c ollaborate between British Colum bia and Alberta. On Monday was the result of that, in w hich c ase th e Minister of Advanced Education in British Columbia and myself sat down together with some 35 or 40 other presidents and board chairs of the various institutions in northern Alberta and northern B.C. Mr.

Speaker, specifically, one of the issues that was looked at was barriers to mobility between B.C. and Alberta. One of the issues that has come forward is that welders, for example, electricians cannot go back and forth on t he bor der. We have ironed that out. W e will have solutions to that coming forward. Another very important t hing took place, Mr. Speaker. When it comes to distance education, what we have in B.C. a nd Alberta is BCcampus, we have eCampusAlberta, we have Athabasca Univer- sity, and we ha ve the B. C. Open Univ ersity.

The dis cussion w as tailored around: why on earth s hould we be duplicating these services when w e can ac tually c onsolidate t hem and use them together? Why should one province have a course in English 101 and the o ther prov ince h ave a co urse i n Eng lish 101 , the same courses? So we are looking at how we can do this. It was a n absolutely excell ent mee ting, and jus t for the ho n. member’s information – and I think it will be particularly critical to him – we w ill be havi ng the nex t meeting in O ctober in G rande Prairie to continue discussions on this very important topic between B.C. and Alberta.

The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Graydon: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, we’ve proven that you can get an intelligent answer to an intelligent question. My first and only supplemental question is again to the Minister of Learning. Can the minister advise what other stakeholders will be involved in achieving these objectives? Dr. Oberg: Well, Mr. Speaker, there are a lot of other stakeholders that ne ed to be invol ved. The re are t he First Na tions. The re’s another very important stakeholder that was not at the meetings, and that’s th e No rthwest Territor ies.

Much of what is going to be happening in the upcoming future is going to be geared towards the Northwest Territories when we start looking at the diamond mines, when we start looking a t the potentia l Mackenzie Valley pipeline coming down the M ackenzie Valley. There’s also a huge brid ge project that is occurring in the Northwest Territories. Realistically, the training elements of the Northwest Territories are very intimately tied to northern A lberta and nor thern Britis h Columbia. So the Northwest Territories is one of these groups that has to be involved. The Yukon Territory also has to be involved. Mr.

Speaker, the meeting that we had on Monday is just the start of what I see as a truly great amount of collab oration a nd co- operation between two and pos sibly three or four jurisdictions a s well as the First Nations. The very interesting part – and I think we can all learn from this in this Assembly – is that we had the Liberal Party from B.C. and the Conservative Party from Alberta s itting together and actual ly working tog ether for the bett erment of the citizenry. Automobile Insurance Rates (continued) Mr.

MacDon ald: This go vernment w as em barrassed when it released on its web site the new auto insurance g rid last year . Alberta drivers checking out the new proposed auto insurance grid found that in most cases the rates went up, not down as promised by this govern ment. My f irst questi on is to the Prem ier. Wil l the Premier guarantee now, this afternoon, that auto insurance rates for most drivers in this provinc e will g o down as a result of this proposed new auto insurance grid? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, no, nor can he guarantee that rates will go up or down.

That is subject to the market, unless of course they have a socialized insurance company that they w ant to publicly finance out of taxpayers’ money to stabilize rates and to make sure that they remain stable. Mr. Speaker, what I will guarantee is that rates for young good drivers will go down and quite dramatically. I will guarantee that. I will guaran tee that r ates fo r old er goo d dri vers wil l go do wn dramatically. I will say that the r ates for bad d rivers will no t go down. They will go up.

If the hon. member is opposed to that, let me know now and state it publicly, because we would like to know where he stands on this issue. Generally – and I can’t guarantee it – those in the mid-range, male or female in the mid-range, the people who are not affected because of age or gender, will remain, I would say, ostensibly the same. Our rates will stabilize. Now, Mr. Speak er, I wou ld point out that I’ ve asked this hon. member before, and I will ask him again.

Assuming that he is a good driver, assuming that he doesn’t have a lot of traffic tickets, speeding tickets, and hasn’t been involved in an accident, I have challenged him to table his insurance rates. I would be glad to table mine. Mine are comparable with what I would pay anywhere in Canada, and I’m sure that his would be comparable too. So to stand up there and try to tell the public that they’re paying more is not being honest. It’s not being honest at all, and he should be ashamed of himself. 2:10 The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you.

Again to the Premier: what specifi- cally are the lower rates? What prices are older drivers with good records going to pa y under y our proposed sc heme? Surely , you know that. Mr. Klein: Well, Mr. Speaker, the policy hasn’t been adopted yet, but certainly a chart has been prepared. It deals with those in the so- called special categories. If one were to look at the charts, one can naturally assume that the rates for good young male drivers will go down and for g ood older ma le drivers w ill go down.

So what is happening is good, and it’s also good for those that are in the mid- range, whose rates will remain pretty well stable. But again, Mr. Speaker, I would ask this hon. member to table in this House, because I’m willing to table mine, his insurance bill for the last thre e years. I w ould ask him to do that, a nd we w ould compare that against the rat e that he would be charged in B.C. or Saskatchewan or Manitoba or Newfoundland or anywhere else in this country. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you.

Again to the Premier: if this proposed chart is as y ou say it is and it’s going to r educe rates for so many drivers, will you put it on the government web site this afternoon so Alberta consumers can check it out for themselves? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speak er, I’ll have the hon. Minister of Finance

Alberta Hansard April 21, 2004944 respond in detail, but the final policy has not yet been adopted. That is the funct ion and the re sponsibility of gove rnment: to de velop policy and bring that into effect. The hon. member still hasn’t answered my question. The question that I pose not directly to him but as a challenge – maybe he won’t state it here – is: will he table his insurance premium for his private automobile for the past three years? I’ll do the same thing. Will he do that? Maybe he’ll answer that question outside. The Speaker: Very, very briefly, please. Mrs. Nelson: Mr.

Speaker, insofar as the insurance grid going on the web site today, it’s amazing how this hon. member can be almost a day late and a dollar short. We put a phantom grid on the web site last year to give Albertans an idea of how a grid would work. It’s not been there for quite some time because we’ve been working on how an actual policy would fit so that Albertans could, once we’ve completed it, go to the web site directly and figure out where they would fit. That won’t go back on our web site unt il we have completed all of the regulations and the pol icy direction over this next three months.

So the hon. member is going to have to wait until we complet e the fi nal process through our polic y deve lopment. Then he will have the picture on the web site. The Speak er: The hon. Member for Cards ton-Taber-Warner, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. Occupational Health and Safety Code Mr. Jacobs: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Some of my constituents who own medium-sized construction businesses have expressed concerns about the effects of the occupational health and safety code, that was enacted in Novem ber of 2003 w ith a fiv e-month grace period for employers to comply, which ends April 30, 2004. My first question to the Minister of Human Resources and Employment: what changes do employers have to make to their workplaces in order to comply with the new code? Mr. Dunford: Mr.

Speaker, I would think that in most cases there really wouldn’t be any change that would be re quired because, in essence, the code replaced, actually, 11 regulations that were already in place. Cle arly, we believe that one c ode will be easier for all employers and employees to keep track of and keep up to date with than 11 regulations. There were some new industries that have risen that might cause some change. We think of the biohazard industry, and of course robotics are increasing in Alberta. There is one area, though, that would affect all employers if they haven’t done this up to this particular time.

All hazards that exist in that particular workplace will have to be put in written form, and of course as common sense would tell you – it’s probably already been done – these would have to be shown to the employees. So given the fact that employers have always been responsible for the safety at their work si te and the safety of their workers, I don’t think there’s any big deal here about assessing the hazard. It j ust might be putting it in writing that would be the big change. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Jacobs: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again to the same minister: what education and communication process was adopted to inform employers about the changes to the code? Mr. Dunfo rd: One of the way s that this government provides communications for employers and, really, for Albertans generally, of course, is the Queen’s Printer. We actually have a best-seller on our hands here, Mr. Speaker. The demand for the printed version of the code has currently outstripped, as I understand it, the ability of the Queen’s Printer to keep up with that particular demand.

Now, this can be had for free by going to the Queen’s Printer web site and then simply downloading the code that way. In any event, we do have a workplace health and safety call centre, and that would be available. We have a call number, and of course we have the web site, and I won’t ad lib any further than that. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Jacobs: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again to the same minister, a final question: what will happen after April 30 if an occupational health and saf ety of ficer f inds an em ployer w ho is not full y in compliance with the new provisions of the code? Mr.

Dunford: This is an area where we’re going to have to be quite vigilant because over time we all are aware that there has been some grinding betwee n some c ontractors and some times our safe ty inspectors, so we want to ma ke sure tha t we keep our eye on that particular area. The kind of information that we as a ministry provide, though, to our people is that we have an education responsibility first. To take a page out of the Premier’s book, if I could, within this area we have the five Es, and of course in that case we want to ed ucate and we want to educate and ed ucate and e ducate some more.

Finally , of course, if we are dealing w ith people who are simply obstinate o r recalcitrant, then of course we’ll have to enforce. But when you look at what’s actually taking place, the contractors themselves would know of the hazards and should be in a position, then, to be able t o correctl y identify these hazards a nd correctl y portray that information to their workers. The Speak er: The hon. Mem ber for Edm onton-Mill Woods, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona. Child Care Services Dr. Massey: Thank y ou, Mr. Spe aker.

Today’s Parent ranks Alberta child care services among the w orst in the country with respect to the number of trained st aff, wages, and overall quality. The Alberta advantag e defi nitely doe s not apply to children i n daycare. My questions are to the Minister of Children’s Services. Can the minister explain why Ont ario has 8 2 per cent of its child care staff with two years of training or higher and this province has only a miserable 43 per cent at the same level? 2:20 Ms Evans: Mr.

Speaker, the Today’s Parent review was done in 1998 from the document You Bet I Care! and, following that, from data that was generated at that time. That preceded and predated the efforts that we’ve made on child care accreditation, which will put us first in the c ountry. It w ill elev ate the qua lity st andards f or children in daycare and day homes. I t will a ddress the issues of standards and rates of pay. In the last year we have provided dollars through the advance on the accreditation.

Eighty per cent of those dollars, by the way, will go towards staffing and giving staff modest increases to get involved with the program. Mr. Speaker, there was a recognition that in Alberta we wanted to do more to enhance the child care services, and building on that, we wanted to do even m ore than that . We w anted to improve staff

April 21, 2004 Alberta Hansard 945 training and improve the qualifications of people who run daycares and day homes. If you look at Canada and if you look at the United States, there is nobody doing accreditation and improving as fast as we are. Dr. Massey: This is a survey done this month. Again to the same minister: why does the government continue to pursue a child care policy that is driving int erested students and practising staff out of the profession? Ms Evans: Well, Mr. Speaker, I don’t believe that. I don’t believe they’re being driven out of the profession whatsoever.

We have got enrolments at Grant MacEwan Community College, a lot of work being done on assessments of the effectiveness of that training tool. [interjection] I’m getting a lot of help here. We are doing a lot with the scholarships for First Nations staff that want to become trained child care professionals, and we are working with the University of Calgary and the sociology department there to improve and enhance training. I think most of all, Mr.

Speaker, the new Alberta response model, which enables the child care delivery system to look at delivery in a new way, not removing children from placements but going into the home an d providing support, means that it’s not just the social worker that’s involved. It is the nurse, it is the psychologist, it is the speech pathologist, and multidisciplinary teams are becoming more commonplace in the adminis tration of child care and child ca re ancillary work that’s being done in Alberta. The Speaker: The hon. member. Dr. Massey: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again to the same minister: why has the government underfunded our daycare so badly that Alberta now leads the country in staff turnover rates? Ms Evans: Well, Mr. Speaker, we don’t fund the daycares. We fund the parents through a subsidy program, that they can apply for, based on the working salaries they receive. There’s a sliding scale right up to and over $40,000. We subsidize the parents, and it’s our premise – and I think it’s the best premise of all – that the parent is responsi- ble for the child and that the parent will do the best due diligence in any daycare or day home.

The y become dai ly monitors of what happens in those daycares. We don’t subsidize daycares. We subsidize parents w ho have children who attend daycares, and we subsidize them based on our belief that we should be putting our dollars where those people can less afford to do it. People that earn $60,000 and $70,000 can pay their own way. We are subsidizing those people that nee d the pa y and those children that need that support. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona, followed by the hon. Member for West Yellowhead. Automobile Insurance Rates (continued) Dr. Pann u: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Any hope that Albertan s might some day hav e car ins urance rates as low as other w estern provinces was dashed today. Although the Premier once promised that this government’s reform package would result in rates as low as in B.C., Saskatchewan, and Manitoba, that promise has mysteri- ously disappeared from the government rhetoric. Instead, the highest car insurance rates in western Canada are going to be locked in for yet another year or more.

To the Prem ier: when the gove rnment finally gets around to implementing its reform package, will Alberta drivers be payi ng more than other w estern Ca nadians for aut o insurance? Yes or no, Mr. Premier? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, I’ll explain it one more time. Our rates will be comparable, but on the goo d side, on the very positive side the rates for good young male drivers will go down. The rates for good older male drivers will go down. The intention, of course, is to end the discrimination against these people because of age and gender if they are good drivers.

Having said that, we will continue to make sure as a matter of polic y that t he insurance companies have the ability to penalize bad drivers. On average it’s proposed that within 5 per cent, give or take, the rates will remain pretty much the same for those in the mid-range. Notwithstanding what this hon. leader of the third party says, these rates are com parable w ith rates paid in other j urisdictions. Mr . Speaker, my insurance rate is c omparable to what I would pay in Saskatchewan, British Columbia, Manitoba, Ontario. It’s compara- ble.

I would be glad to table that, and I’d be glad to tab le what I would be paying anywhere else. My insurance rate for PL and PD and col lision on a classic car which is insured full-time, which is a 1977 Volkswagen convertible, Mr. Speaker – and because of its age and because it is designated as a classic car, it’s valued higher than it normally would be – is around $770 a year. That includes collision and PL and PD. That, accord- ing to the information I’ve been able to obtain, is very comparable, within a dollar or two, of what I would pay in any other jurisdiction.

I would invite the hon. member, as I invited the hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar, to table, providing he has been a good driver, his insurance rates. I’d be glad to table mine. The Speaker: The hon. leader. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If the g overnment’s reform package is so benef icial and so r easonable to drivers , why is the government waiting until after the next election is safely out of the way to implement this glorious new system? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, nothing could be further from the truth. First of all, they say that it’s a lousy plan.

Then they say that it’s so good that we’re waiting until after the election, you know, that we’re holding onto it. The truth is that w e’re in the process now of finalizing that plan. It is going through the political process. It went to SPC last night. It will go to cabinet within a week or so or maybe two weeks, then to caucus if necessary. So I would say that within the next two months or s o it will be out, and I ca n assure the hon. member that an election will not be held within the next two months or so. Dr. Pannu: My final supplementary to the Prem ier, Mr.

Speaker: given that the Consumers’ Association of Canada has found that public insurance provinces are providing dramatically lower insurance rates tha n Alberta, isn’t it t ime f or th e Premier to stop protecting his pals i n the insurance industry and admit that private insurance is highway robbery? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, as I sa id before, I woul d be mo re than happy to table the insurance premium that I am paying right now for collision and public lia bility a nd pro perty da mage.

That ra te is comparable to the socia list ra tes charged i n Saskatc hewan a nd British Columbia, that are backed by taxpayers’ dollars. Compara- ble.

Alberta Hansard April 21, 2004946 2:30head : Recognit ions The Speaker: Hon. members, 30 seconds from now I’ll call upon the first of seven members to participate. The hon. Member for Edmonton-Rutherford. Big Brothers Big Sisters Mr. McClelland: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. I w as going to do a recognition today on the marvellous Mr. Speaker’s MLA for a Day, but it’s already been done. I have another that is equally important, and that is that children matched with mentors do better in life because of im proved self- esteem, school performance, and c ommunication skill s.

They ’re more likely to finis h high school a nd less likely to be involved in criminal activit ies. Tha t is wha t Big Brothe rs Big Sis ters of Edmonton area is all about. W e can m ake a bi g di fference in a child’s life by supporting Big Brothers Big Sisters. As the leading mentoring agency in North A merica, they pride themselves on the high quality of service provided to children, families, volunteers, and supporters. The total number of school-age children and youth in Edmonton and surrounding area is around 200,000.

It’s generally accepted that about 20 per cent of these young pe ople need ex tra supports t o succeed in school and life. This year approximately 2,000 young people will be helped; by the year 2010, about 5,000. On behalf of all Albertans we thank those who have contributed and ask others to become so involved. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Fort. National Aboriginal Achievement Award Hon. Pearl Calahasen Mr. Cao: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In 1993 the National Aboriginal Achievement Foundation established the natio nal aboriginal achievement awards in conjunction with the U nited Nations’ International Decade of the W orld’s Indigenous Peopl es. The awards recogniz e individual s of Firs t Nations, I nuit, and Métis ancestry who have reached a significant level of achievement in their respective occupations. Myself and the ho n. Member for Calgary-Currie had the grea t pleasure of attending the national awards ceremony in Calgary at the Southern Alberta Jubilee A uditorium on Sunday, A pril 4, 2004.

Among the honorary recipients is a particular person that I’m going to talk about. This person was born and raised in Grouard, Alberta, and earned a Bachelor of Education from the University of Alberta and a Master of Education from the Uni versity of Oregon. So far this person continues championing for aboriginal issues, especially in the areas of education, children, and families. Mr. Speaker, this outstanding national award winner is no other than our very own colleague the hon. Member for Lesser Slave Lake and the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development.

I would like to congratulate her and ask all members to applaud her for this award. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Meadowlark. Dianne Greenough Mr. Maskell: Thank you , Mr. Speaker. It’s my pleasure to rise today to recognize a superb teacher, gifted coach, and volunteer extraordinaire, Dianne Greenough. Dianne is well known for her w ork in having cheerlead ing recognized as an ex citing spor t in this prov ince and nat ionally. She’s been a teacher/coach at Victoria School of Perf orming and Visual Arts for 26 years.

She is worshipped by her students and is as enthusiastic as the day she first walked into Vic. Dianne has received many awards for her commitment to cheer- leading, volunteeri sm, and t eaching, including the CFRN Great Albertan award, cit y of E dmonton sal ute to exc ellence, ITV’s woman of vision, Alberta’s excellence in teaching, and she’s been inducted into the American Cheerleaders Association coaches’ hall of fame. This year her Vic team won its 15th city championship and also its 15th provincial championship since 1985.

Her team just placed third in the U.S.A . national c heerleading championships, the f irst Canadian coed team to reach this level. In her spare time s he is coa ch of the Edmonton Eskimos cheer team, and she is also the produc er/choreographer for the 2005 Masters Games. Congratulations and thank you to a great teacher, colleague, and friend. Calgary Flames Mr. Lord: Mr. Speaker and colleagues, how about those Flames. Wow.

The 15-year dry spell for hockey fans in Calgary has ended, and our entire c ity has gone hocke y crazy watching some of the absolute best games ever seen in r ecent years as ou r Flames have battled the Canucks to an edge-of-your-seat, right-down-to-the-wire victory these past few weeks. It has been an incredible experience. Calgarians have bee n completely riveted to their television sets, culminating in that last hold-your-breath 3-2 overtime victory. Our team, which consists of just about everybody in Calgary right now, has had to overcome incredible challenges to get to this point.

Management, staff, and owners have h ad to meet the financial challenges. Our players, led by Darryl Sutter, with stars like Iginla, Kiprusoff, Gelinas, and Yelle and all the other great 28, have had to overcome almost insurmounta ble injuries , fatig ue, and pres sure playing against absolutely evenly matched opponents and have had to dig really deep, relying solely on sheer g rit, determination, and hard work, Alberta qualities they obviously excel in. Congratulations, Flames. We’re all really proud of you. On to the Stanley Cup. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods.

University of Calgary Law School Dr. Massey: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is my pleasure to rise today in recognition of the University of Calgary being nam ed best institution on the Canadian Lawyer magazine 2004 report card on Canadian law sc hools. The U of C ac hieved number one statu s based on some of the most important opinions, those of rece nt graduates. All recent U of C law graduates surveyed recommended the school, and the final grade given to the program was a B plus. The Calgary law school admits about 70 students into t he first- year program each fall.

Small class sizes add to the school’s learning environment, and t eaching sta ff incl udes facult y memb ers and practising lawyers. The university’s curriculum was given top marks for its balanc e betwe en theory and skill development, which , according to one gra duate in the survey, giv es, and I quote, an excellent foundation in t heoretical aspects of law and particul arly excellent practical experience. Congratulations to the University of Calgary law school, and keep up the great work.

April 21, 2004 Alberta Hansard 947 The Speaker: The hon. Member for Red Deer-North. Civil Air Search and Rescue Association Mrs. Jablonski: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That others may live: this is a noble and honourable motto that motivates the 2,700 Canadian volunteers who give of their time and energy to be ready at a moment’s notice to search for a missing aircraft or missing persons. Armed with pag ers and airplanes, 300 Albert a voluntee rs are members of CASARA, the Civil Air Search and Rescue Association.

These volunteers are trained to Canadian military standards in fields such as aviation safety, meteorology, survival awareness, and search techniques. Whatever time of day or night it migh t be, CASARA members are ca pable of be ing airborne withi n 45 mi nutes of an emergency call by the military rescue co-ordination centre at CF B Trenton in Ontario. This weekend Edmonton will host a pro vincial training officers conference.

Jim Thoreson, the national vice-president and director for the province of Alberta; Ted Sherback, the deputy director; Pat Fahy, the provinc ial secretary; and Bob Jabl onski, th e provincial training officer, will review training procedures with other CASARA members, once again all giving freely of their time and expertise so that others may live. Our Voice: The Spare Change Magazine Mr. M acDonald: I am ple ased to hav e the opportunity today to recognize Our Voice magazine, which celebrates its 10th anniversary this month.

The Spare Change Magazine is published monthly by the Bissell Centre in order to increase the ability of people to become self-reliant and to rai se awareness of issues related to poverty and inner-city life. Our Voice aims to provide an oppo rtunity f or econom ically marginalized people to gain employment and income while drawing public attention to the issues they face. Vendors buy the magazine at the Bissell Centre and sell more than 5,500 copies a month in high pedestrian traffic areas of Edmonton for betw een $ 1 and $2 each.

Members of the co mmunity can also get involved by contributing stories, photographs, and poetry for publication. Our Voice has a strong, regular readership, and those people come from many diverse backgrounds. Our Voice has me ant a great deal to many people over the last decade, and I am certain it will touch many more lives in the future. Thank you. head : Present ing Pet itions The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Castle Downs. Mr. Luk aszuk: Mr.

Speaker , I would lik e to prese nt a petition signed by 127 capital region citizens from the Alberta Fire Fighters Association petitioning t he Legislative Assembly to “support Bill 204, the Blood Sam ple Act, which will provide more security and peace of mind for people working in occupations who have a higher risk of exchanging bodily fluids with a potential carrier of a blood borne disease.” Thank you. 2:40head : Tabling R eturns and R eports The Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I’m very pleased to table with you some information that Albertans and MLAs here have been waiting for regarding the Alberta centennial. It is the announcement of three new programs today. The first one is the Alberta centennial per capita municipal grant program totalling $10 million; secondly is the Alberta centennial legacies grant program, phase 3, totalling $16 million; and the third and final one is the Alberta centennial pla nning progra m for provincially run programs totalling $4 million. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands. Mr. Mason: For tablings? The Speaker: Yes. Mr.

Mason: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I do. It’s my pleasure to rise today to table a l etter from Dianne Strilae ff, which is add ressed to the Premier. The author of the le tter is very angry that whil e the insurance industry announces multibillion dollar prof its, the government has locked in auto insurance premiums at the highest level in west ern Canada . She proposes a nonp rofit, public auto insurance program. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have two tablings this afternoon.

The first is a program from the district finalists excellence in teaching awards, 2004, that was held at the McCauley Chambers Centre for Educa tion las t night. T his was hosted by the public school trustees from Edmonton, and there wer e eight f inalists nominated from different schools in the constituency of Edmonton- Gold Bar.

The second tabling I have this afternoon is a copy of a long list of individuals that was prepared by Daniel Dufresne of the Sundance Housing Co-op here i n Edm onton, and this lis t is urging the government to raise the minimum w age in our province and also wants to advise the government that there is a connection between the low minimum wage and the housing crisis in Alberta. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands on a point of order. Point of Order Allegations against a Member Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I rise on a point of order under Standing Order 23(h), (i), and (j); that is, “(

h) makes allegations against another member; (

i) imputes false or unavowed motives to another member; (

j) uses abusive or insulting language of a nature likely to create disorder.” The Premier in his response to my questions engaged in a number of comments which were, in my view, entirely speculation on his part respecting my role on city council, specifically in reference to the construction of t he Convention Centre. He used language – I jotted it down from memory; you will of c ourse hav e the actual transcript – somet hing to the e ffect that I w as the ki ng of cos t overruns. Now, Mr. Speaker, when one is in politics, real ly the on ly thing that they have is their reputation.

During my time on city council I worked very hard to develop a r eputation as a financial watchdog and a fiscally responsible m ember of city council. I ha ve some examples which I t hink are i mportant f or the rec ord and your consideration. There are four of them.

Alberta Hansard April 21, 2004948 Before I was on city counci l, as a privat e citizen I opposed the construction of the Convention Centre and predicted the large cost overruns which later occurred. The Premier’s comm ents in that respect are directly contrary to the facts. I fought and successfully stopped the construction of the unneeded Highlands sewer project, which saved taxpayers 17 and a half million dollars. I opposed and stopped an unneeded expansion of the E.L.

Smith Water Treatment Plant, proposing instead a water conservation program, which saved the taxpayers of Edmonton over $100 million and which has reduced water bills in the city of Edmonton ever since. Finally, Mr. Speaker – these are ju st some examples, certainly not the entire record – I blocked a proposed P3 for an indoo r soccer complex in Clareview and worked to put together a proposal for a city-owned and -financed project which sa ved hundreds of thousands of dollars for the taxpayers. In conclusion, Mr.

Speaker, the Premier doesn’t know what he’s talking about, and he ought not stand up here and cast aspersions on other members when he’s supposed to be responding to questions unless he has some basis of knowledge for making the statements he has. So I’d submit that he is in violati on of t hese sections of the Standing Orders, and he ought to return at an appropriate time and apologize. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Government House Leader on this point of order. Mr. Hancock: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I think having heard the hon. member and his c oncerns with respect to his re putation a s a fiscal conservative, it would be . . . Mr. Mason: Responsible individual, not conservative. Mr. Hancock: I’m sorry. Fiscally responsible individual. It would be a ppropriate just to reflect for a moment on the give and take of question period as it’s developed over time and particu- larly o ver the c ourse of t his sessi on, and I think the Premie r in response to another que stion today sa id it right. It’s particularly difficult at tim es to res pond to questions w hen the question s are nonsensical.

That’s my paraphrasing of what he said. The problem we have is that the rhetoric in the question promotes the rhetoric in the answer. I take the hon. member’s statements as he’s put them, and I would acknowledge that from what he’s said – and in this House we take people at their word – he has taken a fiscally responsible approach with respect to h is ac tions on city council and being a fiscal watchdog, parti cularly with res pect to the Convention Ce ntre.

I would be prepared to offer apologies to him for any suggestion that he was s omehow a proflig ate spende r or promoti ng spending in those circumstances in those comments that were made today. I think there ’s a larger issue for us here, and that is that when questions are posed, the rhetoric of the answer often comes from the rhetoric of the que stions o r the rhetoric of the previous questions. Often the pre amble to the que stions is so roo ted in i naccuracy, hyperbole, and rhetoric that it is very, very difficult to keep the answers to anything other than the same.

So while I thin k it’s impor tant to tak e the p oint ma de b y the member opposite today with respect to the specifics of that particular question and the comments that were made, I think there’s a broader question which all of us ought to be cognizant of, and that is that if you insist on twisting and creating hyperbole in the

preamble to the question, you should expect that you’ll be answered in kind. The Speaker: Well, both representations are very important ones , and with resp ect t o the actua l question, to t he hon. Mem ber for Edmonton-Highlands, the Blues basically say – there are two points. One, it says, “Well, Mr. Speaker , this person w as on city council when the costs of the Edmonton Convention Centre – or maybe he wasn’t.” There was an intervention from the chair suggesting that, well, perhaps the hon. member wasn’t, so that perhaps was clarified.

Then the hon. member advised me that, well, there might be more coming, so then when I r ead the Blu es, I quo te the follo wing: “So . . . when they want to talk about overruns, this hon. member, the ND member, the Member for Edmonton-Highlands is the king of overruns. But h e likes them because that is the way of the NDs.” That certainly was in the Hansard Blues. Now, I’ve heard the response from the hon. Government House Leader, and as I understand it, there was a withdrawal or an apology with respect to this after hearing the position put forward by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands.

So I presume that that will settle that in terms of parliamentary tradition. I do want to make a further comment, though, with respect to what the Government Hou se Leader has said. The G overnment House Leader is ab solutely c orrect. This is a gam e of give and take. Somebody gives it; somebody else will take it and then give it right back. If y ou throw the boomerang, just ma ke sure that you’re standing when it comes back, because if you duck, it’s liable to get you in the neck. 2:50 So, let’s see: ad nauseam now on the part of the chair, maybe the 50th time or something like this.

I won’t go on to the same length that I’ve normally gone on. I’ll just be brief today. Okay? Beauchesne’s 409 says, “It must be a question, not an expression of an opinion, repr esentation, argumentation, no r debate,” and it “cannot be based upon a hypothesis, cannot seek an opinion, either legal or otherwise, and must not suggest its own answer, be argu- mentative or make representations.” Now, those are the rules about questions.

Today in the questi on period actuall y mos t of the questions could have been ruled out including most of the govern- ment members’ q uestions because they either asked for legal opinions or something else. There also is a simila r rule that applies, the n, to peopl e who answer questions. It says, “Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, dea l with the matte r raised a nd should not pro voke debate.” One day – one day – we will have arrived when we actually have questions and answers in the question period dea ling with govern- ment policy rather than speculation, innuendo, personality attacks.

Questions and answers. When we arrive at that point in time, we will be there. We will be there, hon. members. head : Orders of t he Day hea d: C omm ittee o f Sup ply [Mr. Tannas in the chair] The Chair: I now call the Committee of Supply to order.

Hon. members, before starting consideration of the estimates for the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, the chair wants to bring to the attention of all members the provisions of Standing Order 58(5), which indicate that “the Committee of Supply shall be called not later than 3:10 p.m.” on a Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday afternoon and “rise and report no later than 5:15 p.m.” The chair realizes that there’s been some confusion about when afternoon deliberations of the Committee of Supply are to end. In

April 21, 2004 Alberta Hansard 949 accordance, then, wit h Standing Or der 58(5) this afternoon’s consideration of the estimates will end just prior to 5:15 in order to allow the committee to rise and report by that time unless, of course, there are no members who wish to speak before we reach that time, in which the case can be made. head : Main Esti mates 2004-05 Agriculture, Food and Rural Development The Chair: I would call upon the hon. minister to make her opening comments. Mrs. McClellan: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I have a few comments to make about the department’s estimates for 2004, but befor e I do , I wo uld like to introduce s ome ve ry im portant people that are in the gallery. I am going to introduce the executive members that represent, I think , one of the hardest working, most talented and dedicat ed staffs in our government. I’m going to ask them to stand and remain standing until I c onclude their introduc- tion, if that’s okay with the chairman, because I’d like all members to be able to recognize which of these members are which. I’m going to begin by introducing my deputy minister, Mr. Brian Manning.

I want to introduce Mr. Les Lyster, who is the assistant deputy minister for sustainable agriculture. Les is leaving us at the end of Apri l, and I know that everybody will rec ognize the great service that Les has given to this department over the years. I would like to introduce John Knapp, who is the incoming assistant deputy minister for sustainable agriculture. Many of our members in this House on all sides of the House have certainly had reason to discuss programs with Mr.

Knapp over the last couple of years because he has very ably steered his staff through some very complex programs that were certainly important to o ur industry. So, John, welcome with some regret from me because I don’t know how we’ll possibly replace you in your past job. However, I am confident that you’ve left very good talent there. Ken Moholitny is our assistant deputy minister for planning and competitiveness, no stranger to any of you. You should know that he is affectionately called Super Moho outside the committee. Mr. Brian Rhiness, assistant deputy minister for industry development.

I am not going to describe Brian’s costume that he sometimes wears to show his s upport for the hog industry . We hav e Faye Rault, executive director of administration, who very capably keeps our financial activities on track. We have Krish Krishnaswamy, who is the vice-president of finance from the Agriculture Financial Services Corporation. We have Terry Willock, our director of communica- tions. Jeff Haley is h ere from my office. Jeff is special policy adviser. Ladies a nd gentlem en, I’m proud to present this tale nted and dedicated workforce to you. Mr.

Chairman, I don’t think anyone will disagree with my opening statement, and that is that this w as a year unlike any ever experi- enced in Canada in the agricultural community, but I must say that thanks to the support a nd guidance from our industry leaders, we have been able to travel these uncharted waters with some success, I believe. Despite the difficulties that we’ve experienced over the last year, agriculture continues to be a very constant and significant contribu- tor to our province’s economy. We continue to account for a high percentage of our nation’s farm cash receipts.

Employment in 2003 rose to 94,000 people; t hat’s direct empl oyees i n our agrif ood industries. Cash r eceipts in cluding p rogram payme nts w ere $7 billion. But maybe more importantly for the year of the last statistics that we have, Alberta farm capital assets were valued at just over $55 billion. I believe that signifies a huge confidence from the people in this industry to their industry. At this time last year I don’t think anyone could have imagined what type of year we would have. I was sure that the focus of 2003- 04 was g oing to be on g rowth.

We s tarted the spring with some good moisture, prices were pretty good, and it looked like this was our year. Instead, we learned about the single case of BSE. But by working closely with industry – and I must commend the industry leaders because, Mr.

Chairman, at all of our meetings we have had the industry represented at a very high level right across the industry, whether they were small or large packers; whether it was the Canadian g rocers and retailers association; whether it w as the five beef cattle groups, including our dairy producers, because, of course, they’re affe cted; di versified livestock, which w as also effected; financial institutions. The list goes on, and the dedication from those fo lks to steer u s through this was unp aralleled in my experience. We did move 1.2 million he ad of fat cattle through the system.

Considering that we thought we had 650,000 in Canada, I think we did pretty well. We have to again thank the people of this province that I believe led the country in support for our industry. Thanks to our good fiscal management and the sustainability fund we were able to dedicate more than $400 million to the industry without impairing any government programs. We are very proud of that. We make no apologies for our programs. They indeed w ork.

I have had letter after letter a fter le tter, fa r too many , of cours e, to table in this Legislature, saying thank you to the government and to all members of the Legislature that supported t his industry over the years, and believe me; the people out there know who those people are. 3:00 But the dis covery o f BSE also hig hlighted ma ny areas w here Canada can improve, and we have recognized that. We’re ready and willing to do our part and, in fact, have started that. I raise that because that is part of our new budget estimates.

The ability for us to do the new rapid test, the Bio-Rad test, in our level 2 biocontain- ment lab is a great boon to us. We’re building the level 3 lab, which will not only aid us in testing but also offer us some opportunity for research, which is incredibly important. I’ve explained, Mr. Chairman, why we chose the Bio-Rad test. I think that’s well understood now. It is a multi-use test, and it is completely accepted and has been approved for use, as has our lab, as has our staff, for testing for BSE, for chronic wasting disease, and for scrapie.

This ce rtainly assists us in re aching the surveillance targets that the federal government has laid out. I had the opportunit y to accompany the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister when the Prime Minister toured our provin- cial labs in Alberta, and I think I would be correct in saying that the Prime Minister was very impressed by the calibre of the labs and the staff that man those labs. We are committed in Canada to testing the number of animals that are required to prove statistically that we have an incidence of 1 BSE case in 1 million. That will come to be about 30,000 animals a year.

At that rate we are considered a minimum risk. I want to remind all mem bers that tes ting is done for herd surveillance to understand the incidence of BSE in our herds. The safety/health side of it is kept safe by the removal of specified risk materials, or SRMs. By the complete removal of SRMs the safety factor is 99.96 per c ent. That, I think, is the inf ormation that our consumers are most interested in. The year ahead will see us implementing a number of stra tegic priorities that will help our industry in the future and contribute to the BSE recov ery e fforts; that is, our grow th strate gy, the rural

Alberta Hansard April 21, 2004950 development strategy, the research and innovation strategy, and the agricultural policy framework. Our budgeted expenditures do increase this year by $17.2 million. These increase s include th e commitme nts under the ag policy framework, such as the Canadian agricultural income stabilization program, the farm water program, and some other programs included in the agreement. It includes industry-supported research initiatives. It includes ongoing operating funding for the level 2 lab and the new level 3 TSE lab.

As all members know, it’s incredibly important that you not only build these but that you have the funds to operate them on an ongoing basis. We have added 68 full-time equivalents in staff. They are there primarily to manage fo od safe ty progr ams a nd the new CAIS program, the Canadian agricultural income stabilization program. Our budget is based on a number of assumptions, as it usually is in agriculture.

Some of those assumptions are that commodity prices won’t decline further, that interest rates will remain relatively stable, and that we will not have another disastrous c laim year under the farm income disaster and crop insurance programs. We are hoping for good moisture conditions. Parts of the province have those now, parts of it need them badly, but it’s still early for spring moisture in much of our prov ince. We are of course assuming that we won’t have any further major disease outbreaks such as foot-and-mouth.

When we’re talking about diseas e outbreak s, I j ust w ant to mention avian f lu because I know i t’s a concern t o a number of people. I want members to know that when avian flu was detected in Asia – that’s some months ago – our chief provincial veterinarian sat down with o ur feather in dustry, and they reviewed all of their biosecurity meas ures. Our f eather indus try has b een very , very forward-thinking in implementing on-farm biosecurity, but it wa s important in view of this outbreak in Asia to talk about that.

That was before t here was a break out anyplace in the U .S. and certainly long before the unfortunate experience in the Fraser Valley and the lowe r mainland. I am confident, in discussions with the chairman of the Alberta Chicken Producers, that they are maintain- ing those biosec urity measures and that t hey are doing everything within th eir power to prevent this very highly c ontagious disease from entering our flocks here. Other things that, of course, we have to watch for are changes in interest rates and changes in the Canadian dollar.

The changes in the Canadian dollar have a huge impact on our export industry. So those items can affect farm income dramatically and can impact the indemnities that we might pay out, but we are hopeful that this year is going to be a better year. I just want to c lose by assuring all of our hon. members that the prosperity and sustainability of our agricultural industry remains a priority of this government. I want to thank each and every member in this Legislature for their support during the last year.

It has been an incredibly difficult year for our industry, and your support on all sides of the House is appreciated. I think we have to acknowledge that we have been treated fairly by media in this issue, and I think that is important as well. But I also thank the dedicated people that we have at the Canadia n Food Inspection Agency, o ur own pr ovincial v eterinarians for t heir openness and transparency with the media and with all inquirers to make sure that people understood ve ry clearly the issue a nd the science that surrounded the issue.

Our industry is growing an d changing rapidly – we ar e not any different than any other industry – and we k now that w e have t o change and grow with it. We believe that our business plan and our budget recognize that change and the opportunity for our industry to move forward and be stronger and better than it ever has been in the past. With those comments, Mr. Chairman, I will take my seat, listen to the questions, respond to some now.

If they’re technical or lengthy in response, in the i nterest of getting as much inform ation out as possible, I will respond to some of them in writing, as I have, and I make the com mitment to have those responses back to the hon. members that might ask them before our budget process is over. I have been able to respond to some questions that were raised during interim supply and will continue to do that. So with that, Mr. Chairman, I look forward to questions. Thank you. The Chair: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I’m looking forward to this aftern oon’s d iscussion on the budget est imates fo r t he Agriculture, Food and Rural Development department. Certainly, at this time on the record I would like to say that I agree with the hon. minister that it’s been a very difficult year for this province’s agricultural producer s, specifically beef produc ers.

I t started off with such promise last spring, and unfortunately for all there was the detection of the single case of BSE in this province in the Peace River district. 3:10 When you look at the case in the P eace River district and how famous that cow has become and if you look perhaps before that, the most famous cow in North America would have been Mrs. O’Leary’s cow in Chicago. Mr. Chai rman, if you look at these two events – they’ve been separated by many years – exports are involved in both of them.

The Chicago fire led to a lot of economic development in northern Ontario around the Lakehead because of the demand for lumber to rebuild Chicago. The contrast in this and the Peace River cow is that the Americans closed the border to our largest market for beef exports. So there’s a lesso n here, and I would urge the hon. mi nister, perhaps in conjunction with the Minister of Economic Development – I’m surprised that we have such limited exports of beef to China. Certainly, I know that the hon.

Me mber for Lethbridge-East has a fondness for ginger beef and Szechuan beef, and I have this view that we could increase our markets there. The Australians and the New Zealanders are exporting beef to China. There is an emerging middle class in that country with disposable income. I would hope that we would ex plore this m arket in detail, bec ause if there’s a lesson to be learned here, it’s that we have all our eggs in one basket, Mr. Chairman, the American market, and hopefully we can diversify our export market.

I’m not predicting that this is going to happen again, a repeat of the identification of BSE in Peace River, because I think that since we’ve had the feed ban, since 1996, new cases are going to become less and less likely. Hopefully, we’ve seen the one and only case of BSE in Alberta. The cow that was found in Washington on the dairy farm that originated in Calmar was born a few months, I believe, Mr. Chairman, before the feed ban. Now, we may have to change some of our feed regulations. We certainly have to w ork with other jurisdictions.

As I said in th is House yesterday, there’ s certainly a stan dardized form of c attle identification in this country . I think tha t a lot of people and, I’m told, a lot of people in the Alberta department of agriculture put a lot of work into this before it finally became standard. I would hope that our department of agriculture this year is going to work w ith other depa rtments provincially and w ith the fe deral government to convince the Americans that we need to have a North American licence plate, so to speak, or bar code for all cattle that are

April 21, 2004 Alberta Hansard 951 born on the North American continent, Mr. Chairman. This needs to be done in light of the difficulty they had in Washington around Christmas of tracing back and detecting possibly other examples of BSE-infected animals. This needs to be done, and I’m sure this hon. minister and this department are going to work very diligently with all jurisdictions. I’m told by industry representatives that they have been working very hard to resolve this issue and have been working co-operatively.

There’s no doubt in my mind that this is being done in the interests of Alberta producers first and foremost, but we’ve got to convince others of some of our own sound practices. Also, last year the hon. Member for Lethbridge-East was talking about having a committee. I don’t want to call it a supercommittee of all jurisdictions in North America but representatives from both sides of the borde r. Of a ll industr ies, inc luding the auto motive industry, I would sa y that t he be ef industry is perhaps the most integrated in North America. I don’t think we can stop this, nor do we want to.

If the Americans want to buy our beef, they’re welcome to it. If they want to buy our beef genetics, they’re welcome to that too, as far as I’m concerned, because it’s some of the best around. Now, the Member for Lethbridge-East wanted a committee struck with representatives from all the provinces, the federal government, I believe, and the A merican jurisdictions, th e U.S. Depa rtment of Agriculture, the American b eef council, I believe. It was an idea that, oddly enough, like many of the hon. member’s other ideas, was before its time, Mr. Chairman. There has been a report that came out from the U.S.

Department of Agriculture near the end of March – I believe it was March 26, to be precise – that indicated just exactly that. There should be a committee struck, and it should be dealing with science , not political rhetoric, a nd r esolve this i ssue. T his committee would understand, unlike some of the American members of the Senate, that this is an industry that is integrated across North America, and we have to look at solutions to our problems with that understanding, that this is a North American industry. So hopefully the advice of the hon.

Member for Lethbridge-East is going to be adopted and there will be significant new dialogue and we will ens ure that the Alberta beef industry has strengthened credibility and the consumers, no matter whether they’re in Edmon- ton, New Y ork, Montrea l, or Tor onto, w ill have c onfidence in Alberta beef products. Now, the hon. minister talked about the Bio-Rad test , and I can understand that this was a te st that was in itially used for chronic wasting disease in elk populations. I believe every animal that was slaughtered from those populations was to be tested . . . Mrs. McClellan: Is tested. Mr.

MacDonald: Is tested. Okay. I find no fault or no harm in that. I had the pleasure of attending a conference that was organized by the University of Let hbridge, the U niversity of Calg ary, and the University of Alberta last week in Calgary, and it was very interest- ing. Exper ts fro m all ove r the wo rld w ere there to discuss and educate on this whole issue of BSE. It was a very good conference to attend. I l earned a lot there, b ut many of these experts from around the world were expressing caution about rapid BSE tests that could possibly indicate a false positive.

I would hate it and be very disappointed if the hon. minister did a lot of work with her staff and with others to promote and enhance our industry and have some false positive test ruin all the hard work that would be done. Food safety and food safety issues. The hon. minister talked about the situation in the poultry industry in the Fraser Valley in B.C. We have our own sit uation with beef. Previously the re were national news stories in regard to fish farming and salmon.

Consumers are getting suspicious, but consumers have to realize that some of the food safety initiatives that are goi ng on now a re really second to none. 3:20 I have learned in the c ourse of m y research on BSE that mor e people will get sick from hamburgers that are barbecued improperly, where there is a lack of proper food handling techniques used in the barbecuing of the patties.

In America 1 in 4 people, statistics state, will get sick o n a n annual basi s because of contam inated food or water, and if we educate consumers on how to pr operly handle, in this case, hamburger patties, we can significantly reduce the number of peop le who will get sick fro m the co nsumption of barbecued hamburgers. Now, hopefully that will come later. There’s no doubt that this department is making every effort to enhance excel lence in food safety. There’s no doubt in my mind.

That w as one statistic tha t certainly caught the ear of this member, that 1 in 4 of us at least once in a calendar year will get sick from either con taminated water or contaminated food. It has nothing to do with poultry or the produc- tion of the poultry, the production of the beef, or in another case the production of fish. So there are a lot of stories that are sensational- ized, but that’s one that isn’t, and it’s centred around the preparation of the food that we eat. Mr. Chairman, this is a very interesting department.

There are a lot of programs in this department, and there is certainly a lot of use of these programs. This afte rnoon I hope to have man y of m y questions answe red, and if they c annot be answ ered, I w ould certainly appreciate those in w riting within a reasonable length of time from the department officials. The total gross department spending is down slightly, by .3 per cent, from last year, Mr. Chairman. The de partment is largely the same as it was last year.

There are a few real increases of merit with one notable exception, food safety, which is up 54 per cent from last year’s budget, and that’s probably for obvious reasons. Gross department spending is down, from $433 million to $431 million, I believe. This is interesting given last ye ar’s experience w ith agriculture. Does this reflect a r estructuring of the departm ent, especially the major restructuring of farm safety net programs? The standing policy committee spending is up by 4 per cent from last year, Mr. Chairman. Why? Where is the money going?

The chairs of the committees got, on average, $23,000 in the fiscal year ended March 31, 2003. What sort of hours have they put in in order to get almost as muc h salary as, say , a rese archer in our caucus simply for serving on this committee? Also, can the minister clarify some of the activities of the policy secretariat? Their gross budget has gone down almost 10 per cent from last year; however, the policy secretariat is forecast to spend 27 per cent over the line item from the 2003 budget. So why is that? What activities have they been engaging in?

Under Economics and Competitiveness, item 2.2, administrative support is up approximately 10 per cent, or $36,000. What is very interesting is that the forecast spending on administrative support for the fiscal year just ended is 1,460 per cent higher, or $5.1 million, in the line item from last year, which I believe was $374,000. What’s up with this? Why is it so much greater than budgeted? [Mr. Klapstein in the chair] Now, the grea test increase in ex penditures in the departm ent is under the food safety ref erence, 4.3. The total increase f or thi s reference is up 52 per cent, or $6.9 million.

Obviously, this increase is due to the BSE situation in Alberta.

Alberta Hansard April 21, 2004952 Hopefully, Mr. Chairman, we’re going to have more time later on to talk specif ically about t his BSE si tuation, but t here a re some questions I want to get on the record in the meantime. More directly, the agrifood systems element, 4.3.2, is up 43 per cent, or $1.6 million, and agrifood laboratories, 69 per cent, or $2.3 million. This is all to deal with the upgrades to the Provincial Lab in light of BSE I assume, or is this a separate lab? Mrs. McClellan: Same lab. Mr. MacDonald: Okay. Same lab.

Now, the chief provincial veterinarian’s office has had an increase of 230 per cent, or $344,000, for this budget when compared with last year’s bu dget. W hat are w e going to get for this mone y? Is there going to be an increase in their recruitment of, let’s say, senior 4-H club members that have a very good report card coming home in their satchels, a good science report card? I would really think we need in this prov ince to att ract, tra in, and reta in a lot of young Albertans not only in the veterinary professions but in the pathology end of that profession. Is this what’s going on here?

Now, element 4.3.3 under Equipment/Inventory Purchases deals with those purchases for the agrifood lab. The amount budgeted is exactly equal to last year’s purchases, $380,000. It is interesting that the comparable forecast of money spent for the department in this line item f or the 2003-04 fiscal year was 320 pe r cent hig her, or $835,000. Can the hon. minister detail these expenses? Also, can the minister please tell us why the budgeted amount under these line items remains the same as before the single case of BSE w as detected in Alberta?

In regard to this lab precisely what is going to be the final test cost for one rapid test of BSE, whether it’s Bio-Rad or some other one, Prionics? What exactly is the department going to pay for that in this lab? There was a report in an editorial in a local paper where it was between $25 and $30. Now, the total cost of this surely has to be $80 or $90 or maybe . . . The Acting Chair: Hon. member, your time has lapsed. Mrs. McClellan: Mr. Chairman, I’m going to just do kind of a quick answer to some of the que stions because it may help f or further questions.

The lab upgradi ng is in Inf rastructure’s bu dget, not mine. Infrastructure builds an d does all r estoration or re-form ation of buildings. 3:30 The increase in my budget is in operating, and I did mention in my opening comments that part of the increas e of I think it was $17.3 million to my overall budget is f or the opera tion of that lab. S o that’s staffing, test kits, and so on. The kit cost does run somewhere around $30 a kit.

Doing a thousand tests a week, if you were doing that many, your cos t would probabl y be ab out $100, some where between $100 and $150 depending on that r ange, and of course it depends on volume as to the efficiency of the use of staff and so on that are allocated to that. If you can double that, you bring it down. If you double t he numbe r of test s, you can br ing th e cost down because of the efficiency in volume. Turnaround time on a rapid test is some three to four hours. While we’re on testin g, I want to go back to false positives. T hat would only be a n issue if you didn’t have a conf irmation test.

I might say that we used the rapid test in testing some 2,700 animals that we had to test and eliminate from our herds from that incident in May of last year. We did not, as far as I know – and I think I’m absolutely correct on this – find one false positive, but if you had a false positive, it would be tested using the gold test. That is the more expensive test. Th at is the test that takes up to three , four days to conclude. It’s an im munohistology test. I’m tr ying to learn the jargon – that’s not jargon; that’s scientific – the names of some of these. So false positives are not the issue.

If that’s all you were using, yeah, it would be an issue. But if you had one, you would immedi- ately go to the g old test an d substantia te it. T hat would be the practice. So that kind of covers testing. One of the reasons that you don’t see as high an increase in food safety as you might expect given the one case of BSE is that we’ve been very proactive in food safety, and we’ve increased our budget over the years prior to BSE being found. Of course, it was a distinct advantage to Albert a that w e were forward-looking. We did ad d dollars. I don’t remember the exact amount.

I do know that I think two years ago it was a million something. The year before that was more money. We’ve been increasing in food safety over the years, so we don’t ha ve to swallo w a big gulp when an incident does happen. The 4-H program was alluded to, and I’m going to give you the detail on that line item, but I can’t let that go without saying that we have the best 4-H program in Canada. I will boast of that, but those aren’t just our words. That is recognized across Canada. We’re the envy of Canada. I had an opportunity last ev ening to vi sit with a group of 4-H leaders.

When I c oncluded a m eeting I had, they happened to be meeting in the basement of the same hall, and we had an opportunity to talk about the program. There were some of their young people there, and I can t ell you that they are extraordinarily pleased with and proud of the program that we provide in this province. There is no question that it does lend itself to outstanding young people in the industry. For the future we tend to think of the industry as going to the farm, but these are the lea ders that go into food s afety, food science, into veterinary services.

The number of veterinarians and pathologists is of concern to us. We’re working with the Minister of Learning on that. We buy our spaces at the Western College. There’s no question that we’re not graduating nearly enough food animal veterinarians. It’s difficult to control that, because while a student may go in with that intention, they have the right to switch their specialty as they go through, and they have the right to practise i n whatever area they want to when they graduate. We do our utmost. As you know, we fund a chair in large animal practice at Western College.

So we’re doing what we can to improve that, and I must say that we’re recruiting world-wide for pathologists. The shortage is not just here. It i s a world-wide shortage, and that’s of concern. I want to j ust ment ion a couple of other things bri efly. Mrs . O’Leary’s cow. I didn’t think you were at any of the things that I was talking at. I used that as an example of how one cow can disrupt the whole world as we know it. The difference in export ban in this case is that that is what happened. It’s what we did when an incident was found somewhere. Immediately your borders are closed.

What’s different in our experience – an d it is unique t o this experience – is that our borders opened with the U.S. within seven months, not s even year s, whi ch wou ld be the n orm, th at as of Monday of this week a tremendous announcement, I believe, where all edible cuts of beef will cross the border. Prior to that, we had been limited to boneless cuts. Now bone-in cuts can go, like T-bone steaks, rib roasts, ground beef, and that’s huge.

Of course, we’re all waiting with anticipation for the rule to come out, and it ce rtainly was encouraging to us when they added product from over-30-month cattle to that rule. I’m hopeful that that rule will be implemented.

April 21, 2004 Alberta Hansard 953 The difficulty we have, even with the expanded cuts taking place, is that we are at packer capacity. We had an industry me eting last Friday. We had a ll of our m ajor packers there, the three of them, talked to them. They’re going six days a week, full shift, flat out. We’re slaughtering and shipping more product than we were prior to BSE, but we simply don’t have the capacity in Canada anywhere. Remember: we slaughter 70 some per cent in Alberta. An Hon. Member: How much? Mrs.

McClellan: Seventy some pe r cent of the slaug hter occur s here, and that is of concern to us, because even with this additional product going, the capacity is an iss ue. There ’s a lot of a ctivity happening in that area, but we have to be realistic. To build a plant, if you started today, you’re looking at eight, 10, 12 months for it to be ope rational, and it’s also a h uge inv estment. Tha t’s why it’s important to us to have li ve cattle be able to move .

Personally , I think that every agricultural product that goes out of this province, whether it’s in grains, animals, vegetables, or fruits, should go in a box. It should be value added. Frankly, we don’t have the capacity right now. The other reason that you need this opportunity is that you need arbitrage in the market, you need price determination, and you don’t have that in a c losed mar ket. It is encouraging to us to see that American buyers are buying here now and have been for the last several weeks. The Premier has championed this idea. It’s taking different forms.

The Prime Minister has carried this forward. We’re pleased about that. O ur officials, provi ncially and fede rally, are working on this. We ha d a discuss ion about it at our federal/provincial/territorial meetings a week ago, 10 days ago. We did discuss this with the undersecretary of agriculture in the U.S. as to their interest. They are also intereste d, whether we would do it together or we would do it singly. But we recognize that. The other thing that is of great interest to us on the North Ameri- can side is harmonization.

We’ll always be competitors, but if we can harmonize as much as possible some of our regulatory areas and scientific areas, it will be of benef it to all of us. We ha ve to remember that one of the players in the North American market has perhaps not got all of the institutional ability yet, the scientific ability yet. That is a challenge, but those are challenges we are definitely committed, as Canada, to work on with the U.S. and Mexico. ID system. It would be wonderful if it would be harmonized. But I think we are individuals; we will choose our own.

I am most proud of the fact that the animal that we had in Alberta was traced back absolutely as to the or igin of tha t animal and in ver y short or der. The animal that was found in the U.S. was traced back into Canada very quickly. Their trace out beyond that was, f rankly, less than good, and that speaks to the fact that we do have a national identifi- cation system and the U.S. does not. They recognize that they must, and they w ill work towards one. They will hav e what s uits their industry the best. We will have what suits our industry the best.

I can only say: thank goodness tha t our cattlemen did proceed with what was a very, very contentious issue on a national identification system. I am so pleased that they persevered and did it. 3:40 You talked about China. We are in China. It would be helpful if you had an opportunity to talk to some of our producers that are over there. They’ve been there for some time. They have been working on embryo and semen mainly because, obviously, transportation and utilization in that area is quite o ften ea sier, and it’s that that they want.

We had a bit of a halt, obviously, with BSE, but those companies are still i n China. We see that as a growth market. We are also in Russia. When I s ay “we,” I don’t t alk about g overnment. Ou r producers are the best salesmen. We’re there to help them, to open doors if it’s necessary, to work on issues around health prot ocols, regulatory things, but our prod ucers go out there. W e are w ell recognized in the w orld as lea ders. Russ ia is anothe r potentially important market. Just as a reminder, today the U.S. is our largest mark et. That won’t change. There are too many reasons for it to stay that way.

We have an integrated market now. We have a natural advantage in transportation proximity, similar cultures, sam e languages, and so on. So it’s going to be our largest market. Japan was our second larg est ma rket; toda y Me xico is. You should look at the graphs tha t show th e growt h in the Mexican market. Th e Canada Beef E xport Feder ation put an of fice int o Monterrey. I’m trying to think of how long ago that was, maybe five years ago. It’s somewhere in that range. T he growth in that Mexican market was just absolutely phenomenal, and there’s huge opportunity for future growth there.

Then Japan is third, and on it goes. One of the important things for those external markets is that they take product that w e don’t necessarily use as much here or i n the U.S. They buy offal cuts that we are not as prone to use here, and they buy it at a very, very good price, because that’s a premium item in other culture s. So that’s important to us. But our i ndustry recognizes that they have to diversify and expand their markets.

The Minister of Economic Development may want to co mment because they’re the salesmen in the world for us, and there have been additional dollars provided to Economic Development to assist our industry in enlarging our market base, and I can tell you that those dollars are working well. The other thing t hat we i ncreased that I should j ust ment ion quickly is product development, and those were dollars that were put in place to develop utilization of product for over-30-month animals, because that’s going to be with us for a long time. We have put the Leduc processin g centre at ou r indus try’s disposal.

We have purchased some ad ditional equi pment there . There are so me excellent initiatives. I think that some dozen or 14, at least that I have se en, Alberta companies hold great promise in that they are going to develop more home for that over-30-month product, value-added right here, because that’s going to continue to be a problem. I’ll point out that we’re probably killing almost as many cows now as we were pre-BSE. Our diff iculty is that we ca nnot and a re not killing the 70 per c ent of those animal s that w ent into the U. S. mainly for slaughter, processing, and then sale.

We don’t have the capacity to do it. If you’d just look in western Canada, there’s one major cow plant – it’s at M oose Jaw – a sma ll plant by plant standards. Tyson kills cows on a limited basis in Brooks, and there are some smaller plants in eastern Canada, Quebec and Ontario. But if you were killing cows, B.C. cows would come to either, as we know it, Lakeside/Tyson or go to Moose Jaw. Some of the cows that our producers shipped went to Quebec. Not a very good deal on the value of a cow today, so we need to do more there.

We have probably five, six, or seven groups that are very serious about increasing our capacity in Alberta. We provided some dollars to help them develop business plans and ex pertise around this – you want to make a good business decision – and Ag Financial Services has a loan program that is available to people who are looking at developing plants. So there’s a lot of activity going on. I think you could spend three days talking about what is happening in this area, and you’d miss something. I just want to assure you that mark et development has

Alberta Hansard April 21, 2004954 been occurring, but the U.S. will continue to be our biggest market for all of those reasons that I laid out. I would, though, certainly hope tha t at som e point in the a fter- noon, the Minister of Economic Development might share with you some of that information, or if he can’t do it here, when his estimates come up, I think it would be an excellent opportunity to get that information. The Acting Chair: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I have one further question at this t ime b efore I cede the floor to the hon.

Member for Lethbridge-East. If the hon. minister could clarify – she spoke about the trips to China, and they were there selling embryos. Now, I’m of the impression that when the BSE ban occ urred, the border was closed, it was for live cattle and also embryos. I’m told now that the export of embryos to a large number of countries has resumed. [Mr. Tannas in the chair] I have not read about this in the media. Maybe I overlooked it; maybe I missed it. Who’s to say? But I think it’s a good-news story that this trade has re sumed, and it has not t o my know ledge been reported. If it was reported, I missed it.

It’s the stepping stone we need to open the borde r to live c attle. Could the hon. minister confirm that, please? Mrs. McClellan: Semen and embryo do travel. The disruption that I talked about was the total disruption in all trade initially, right after BSE. You didn’t probably read about it in the newspaper too much because, you know, usually if it’s kind of good news, we don’t get an awful lot of co verage on it. I wo uldn’t get i t because I’m not probably as prone to reading the newspapers for information as you are. I find other sources might be just as good to get it.

Embryo and sem en are m oving and c ontinue to move . So the disruption is just overall in trade in beef. We’re not only interested – and when I say we, I’m not talking government. I’m talking we the agricultural industry, in this cas e the beef industry. We a re inter- ested in expanding those markets to meat products. I said, when the border opened in Macao, how important that was, and some people thought: really, Macao is a little peninsula. I said island, and somebody corrected me very quickly.

It’s a peninsula, a very small country, but it has prov ed since how important the opening of Macao was, and product is moving to Macao. It’s a step in opening all of Asia. There have been so many things that have happened over the last months that may not seem significant to others but to the industry are huge. This is a marketplac e that opera tes a lot on signals, on information. It’s a commodity, and prices can be aff ected up or down. We have tried to be very careful as government members in what we sa y because we don’t want to impa ct the m arket in the wrong way, and we know that that can happen.

A statement by the Premier, a minister, or somebody in government can have an impact on the market in a negative way as well as a positive way. What we want is a true market situation, not one that i s based on something that might or might not happen. 3:50 The actual a nnouncement of the U .S. opening its border to all edible cuts of beef occurred Monday morning, but actually it was out late last week. If you followed the markets, you would have seen the markets on Friday and the TEAM sales went up 8 to 10 cents.

Now, for the people that sold that we ek, the g uys that sold befor e the rumors started would be a little sorry and the guys that sold after it were of course elated with the better price. What was important to us was that Monday opened with that same 8 to 10 cent increase. So this is a marketplace that’s very fluid and reacts. I’ll leave it at that, and we’ll have some more questions, and on we go. The Chair: The hon. Member for Lethbridge-East. Dr. Nicol: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to start by joining the minister in saying thank you to all of the individuals in the Agricul- tural, Food and Rural D evelopment staff. The y’ve been gre at t o work with over the last 11 years, and it’s been a real opportunity, I think, for me to learn a lot about th eir approach and the way they deal with policy. I commend them on their willingness to be open and to work for the industry, which is what we’re all in it for. I guess that I just want to conclude with a couple of comments and questions about some of the things that went on. I’d kind of break it down into maybe three different areas.

Again, we all have to start with the crisis that faced our industry this year in the BSE area. Minister, you were talking about the idea that the use of the quick test might lead to false positives and that automatically transfers the test on to the gold standard test. A question ca me throug h my mind as you were m aking that comment. This is going to mean a four-day confinement, in effect, for that product both in terms of the carcass, in terms of the head, all of that. What is being put in place there to deal with that, and how will that be handled in the context of who’s going to take the impact?

Will it mean that all of the meat at a plant is all of a sudden on hold, or can the carcass be iso lated? Are these kinds of plans in place within the industry to deal with that contingency? As much as we never want it to happen, I think we’re learning that we ha ve to be pr epared. T he potential, then, for t he perc eived contamination of other meats from the carcass that has that potential positive sets a whole mood for the industry, especially the consum- ers.

I guess, you know, in terms of the industry a nd the public, maybe the best thing would be that that all happens quietly, but that doesn’t necessarily alwa ys occur. So we have to m ake sure that there is a public awareness of this whole process so t hat the confi- dence stays there: okay; this may have happened, but precaution has been taken.

If you could outline whether or not those discussions are even going on, I think that a t this point tha t’s all we can as k for because this whole process is both reasonably new and dynamic, so we have to be prepared for adjustments to go on continuously in this process. [Mr. Klapstein in the chair] One more comment on the BSE, then I’ll move on to some others. You spoke about the 99.96 per cent risk.

I guess the question comes up – and I’ve dealt with this when I was teaching at the university before – in terms of what constitutes appropriate levels of acceptance for risk, and we hear constantly the people say: well, we’ve got to test more. I’ve always answered back: you know, well, we’ve got this to 99 per cent. And I thank you for the extra few decimals that I can now use. You talk about improving beyond that just by testing a few more. The only thing we really can do is test everything.

What we nee d is some kind of a n information p rocess for the average Albertan, the average Canadian so that they understand that we are testing at a level which in effect is more than sufficient, is standard sufficient. To do anything other than that is just . . .

April 21, 2004 Alberta Hansard 955 Mrs. McClellan: It’s a waste. Dr. Nicol: Yes. It’s extra cost, extra effort which we don’t as a public get a benefit out of. This is the thing we have to really look at. How do we get that kind of standard for Canadians and, I guess, for the international market?

A lot of people have come to me and said: what do you make out of this instance that occurs in the press all the time a bout this company in the Unite d States tha t wanted to undertake the tests, prove that the animals were clean, and then enter the international market, in eff ect create a m arket niche or a market-diffe rentiated product? Then they’re sa ying: we ll, if they can do that for an international market, why can’t they do it for us?

I think we’ve got to start under the food safety initiatives and start talking about risk in all aspects of it, not necessarily just BSE, but we’ve got to get the consumer to understand that no matter what you do, there’s a risk. I wen t down to the grocery store w hen I cam e into town and bought my week’s supply of groceries. You buy a can of something, and everybody says: well, canned food is ultimately safe. No. There is a risk factor to that. It’s not a hundred per cent. If the consumer can understand this, they’ll accept the fact that our beef is probably safer than that can I bought.

This is the thing that we have to look at in terms of: how do we make that transition now? It’s so easy to have a bad-news story get out and create quest ions in the m inds of Albertans and Canadians and our international trade partners about what the real risk they’re facing is. So som e kind of an education program in the f uture, Madam Minister, when we get to dealing with the new food safety initiatives that are coming out of the realignment of the ministry is something that we really need to look at.

I just want to conclude my comments now on BSE by saying that every Albertan an d every Canadian , all of us, h ave to than k t he scientists for the great job they did. They created an international standard on how to handle this that ha s been recognized and been commented on in Europe, in the United States, all around the world. That just show s the dedic ation that w e have in terms of both our provincial vets and the CFIA, in terms of their actions.

So I want to join you in putting it on the record that from the science perspective we really came through on this and showed that consumers can have confidence because of the work that our pathologists and our vets are doing. [Mr. Tannas in the chair] I just want to touch briefly on a couple of other areas that we need to deal wi th. You talked a litt le bit about the incentive for the industry to grow and the way we wanted to do that. I guess that this is a question that comes to my mind every time we talk about, you know, the new directions of our ag initi atives.

The ag summ it process went on at length a few years ago. I guess there was a real initiative th ere to talk about what we need to do in each of these areas. There are a lot of initiatives, y ou know, in the food saf ety area. There are a lot of initiatives coming out now in environment conservation, all of thes e f rom that ag sum mit proce ss.

Wha t’s missing is how the ag summit talked about the vision for where we want to be. 4:00 I was look ing back at, you know, the mission statement of the ministry, where you start off: “To enable the growth of a g lobally competitive, sustainable agriculture an d food ind ustry thro ugh essential policy, legislation, information and services.” You know, that says a lot, but it doesn’t tell Albertans what you see as the role that agriculture needs to play both in terms of public policy and the area that we’re going into in terms of transition.

You know, if you read that and say, “Okay; this is great,” being a free-market economis t, I say , “This i s going to m ean that the market’s going to work an d we’re go ing to let the market drive forces.” Then y ou find somebody that says, “Well, if you let the market drive forces, we’re going to end up, in effect, with great big farms in Albert a and nothing e lse.” That’s not what we want f or rural Alberta. So information needs to be presented to Albertans that talks about, you know, how we see this transition an d how we se e an end description, if you want to call it that, of the rural community.

I got into a real debate last week in Lethbridge when somebody asked a question of me about what they called “factory farms.” My response was that in many ca ses – an d I th ink we’ve seen it in som e crisis situations in Albert a – the big producers have the w herewithal to actually adjust and respond to a crisis more so than the small mixed operation.

I made that comment, and it wasn’t accepted very well by the individuals who asked the question in the sense that they said, “Well, if you’ve got it spre ad out a littl e bit more, then you don’t have the concentration; you don’t have the impact.” Well, you know, this is the kind of thing that i f we’re going to have the magnitude of an industry that we want in A lberta, we’re going to have the same number of animals, whether there are 10 on each farm or whether there are 10,000 on each farm or whether there are 100,000 on each farm.

There’s going to be the same number of animals if we have tha t economi c incentiv e and op portunity to produce that product in our rural communities. So I guess that what we need to do is help inform Albertans about this area of what we see as the driving forces behind agriculture. If it’s going to be the market in t hat way, then Albertans need to be made aware of the fact that the big farms are going to become more and more the standard rather than something to say: why do we have these? You know, that kind of vision needs to be put together. Just a final comment on that.

I was making a presentation to a bunch of individ uals invo lved in the f ederal a rena as w ell. I suggested that as a p olicy e conomist the ag polic y fr amework provided me w ith all kinds of opportunit ies to deal with rea lly constructive policy-making, but until you knew what you wanted in terms of agriculture, you didn’t know what policy to put in place because you didn’t know what the end was. I think that’s missing out of the ag policy framework as well, you know, in terms of an overview statement about what we see as the future of agricultu re.

If we’re really loo king a t the co mmercial production of a safe food product for the consumer, then we have to separate production from this concept of what is a rural community. The rural community has got to be based on a diversified economy, not an agric ulture/farm vision. I think tha t kind of a statement is good because at least if we have that kind of an answer, then when I get up in these meetings, it would be easier to give an answer as to what we wanted our end to be. I’ve got a couple more issues that I wanted to raise, but I think I’m just about at the end of my time.

I’ll sit down now and let you get to those, and then when my turn comes up again, I’ll hit the other ones. Just to give you a little forewarning, it deals with crop insurance and some of the other CAIS programs. Mrs. McClellan: I’ll try and be brief and, as I said, will respond in detail in writing when it’s appropriate. On testing. We have the capacity to deal with holding animals now. Primarily the animals that are tested are tested from provincial abattoirs, obviously, because the target group is over 30 months. So they have that capacity now. That’s one of the issues that would be

Alberta Hansard April 21, 2004956 around testing every animal, but there are more issues than that. If we asked, even w ith the rapid test, one of our major plants how many animals th ey could k ill if the y were require d to test ev ery animal, they thought about 1,000 a week. We kill up to 6,000 a day, so obviously we wouldn’t even satisfy our domestic market. If we were asked to do that, they would probably have to inc rease their freezer space by 10 times and even more.

A lot of people don’t realize – you k now, you have to stop and think this through – that when you test an animal for BSE, you have to kill the animal. Ther e is no live test. You have to remove that small part of t he brain, and then you have to put i t through the process. But you a lso have t o remove all of the SRMs f rom th e animals when they are t ested. So you today have to r emove all specified risk m aterials from that animal. If you’re going to test every animal, you have to contain all of those separately.

So you would have to take all of the SRMs and bag them or whatever you’d do for that individual a nimal and store them until you ha d your results. Then you would have to take your sides, because this animal is now going to be sorted , and th ey would have to be tagged and bagged and separated. Every part of that animal has to be identified and held until your test results come back. There’s no point in say ing: okay; we’ll test ev ery animal. Y ou couldn’t do it. We don’t have t