Volume XL Tuesday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Fourth Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard} Speaker: Hon .ourable P.]. McNicholas Number 55 14 Jtme 1988

The House met at 2:00p.m . MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! As all han. members IAJi.lJ. r·ecr.~ll, yesterday the han. the Minister of Cons u Hl e r A f fa .i. r' s r.ln d Communications in his capacity as i: h a C h a i r lfl a n of Co mm i. i: I: e ~~ on Standing Orders Revision, raised a question of pr.ivilege w.ith respect to an alleged leak of a confidBnl iaJ. r·epor·i: fr·om in camerr1 meetings of that Committee. Yesterday the House heard fr·om thP. han. mirdster, the han. the member for Fogo, the hon . Government. House Leader, the han. the member for Fortune- Hermitage, and the han. member for St.

John's East. I would now like to hear from the hon. the member for Menihek. MR. LONG: Hear, hear! MR. FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . I have some comments to make about the q u e s l i. o n of p r i. v i 1 e g e , and r: would like to address the question of privilege in two ways. The r i r· s 1:. lAid y .i s i: o .i. t1 d .i. c: a i: P. I: hat : the Committee I was a memher of, and 1 asstJme l arn sl· .ill a rnnmber· of, on September 14 adop ted a re gi.me for .the operation of i:h at par ti cuJar ·Committee.

At that ti rne, the who le quest ion of whe ther or not the delibera tions we r e p r i v i 1 e g e d o r IAJ he t h f.'!r' i: h e y were to be in camera was discussed and the motion was passed which was duly noted in the minutes. I have:~ a copy of the minutes here which I will read to Your Honour because I think they bear on the whole question of privilege and whether or not privilege can be based on other references L2969 June 14-, 1988 Vol XL afterwards. I have a copy here For Your Honour, if one of the PagP.s w·ill just come and get it . No. 7 says, Mr .

Speaker, "Members agreed to keep thelr in camera deliberations confidential unless no1:.i.ct~ Js gJven of a member 1 s intention to make a statement to l:hf.! media ." l tALi ll g.i.ve you a copy of it. The other members, I be J .. i r,~ v ~~ , h d v e c: o p i E! s of l t , so it does not particularly matter. Mr. Speaker, that is the dE!cision that was made by the Committee itself . last week, when I was talking to lhis individual from The Sunday Express and realized that this Sunday there was very likely to be an

article in which at least some of the topics that were discussed would be covered, I approached the Chairman of the Committee and informed the Chairman of the Committee , Mr. Speaker, that the

article was very likely to appear on Sunday. This was essentially something I thought was going to happen, and I wanted to give him notice of it and T gatJP. hi .m notice of it at that time. Mr. Speaker, the ruling we have commonly adopted i.n i:h .i.s House is that the committees themselves are rnastf.!rs of their own house. I have raised a number of questions IAih en l co u I. d not: ask questions in committee, and your ruling has be0n consistently that the Committee itself can determine its o1.~om procedures, and on that basis I would argue that

Section 7 of the minlJtes of l·:he September 14- meeting arE! applicable in this particular instance. That is rny first argument on it , Mr. Speaker, that: that should be the ruling on it, and that I complied with the details of that particular minute . Since there were No. 5S R2969

precedents argued into the record on Monday, r thought ll appropriate to at least address those correctly so that if you decide to dismiss this preliminary objection, at least you could deal with it in its entirety. The wording of the

section from Beauchesne,

Article 647, says among other things, 11Documents presented to such committee and which have not been reported to the House, ought not to be published by any member of such committee or by any other person. The publicaU.on of proceedings of committees conducted with closed doors or of reports of committees before they are available Lo Members will, however, constitute a breach of priv i.lF.!ge. 11 rhe reason I mention that is that ther·e IJJas some t'lllegaU.on .in UH~ comn1ents made yesterday that I r e 1 e a s e d a copy. of t h F.! i" c,~ p or· l: L o the media. AN HON. MEMBER: What is the reference? MR. FENWICK: That is

Section 647 of Beauchesne. I would assume it is the one that was Xeroxed. Mr. Speaker, I just want to put on the record that I did not release a copy of the report. either the detailed report or the

summary of the report itself, and that on that basis I feel that that is not an accurate

interpretation of what transpired. I wish to at least comment on what dJd transpire because, I think it is important thr.~1:. th:i.s HoiJse know what t.he situation u..Jas. The most: recenl: rneet·i.ng the Cornndttee had was on May 25.

At thai: l:irnF.!, the decision was made by the Committee that members of L2970 June 14-, 1988 Vol XI. all the cacuses would be updated on the progres:, to da.te; they would be given a report and that report IJJOiil.d be either okayed or disapproved of, whatever the caucuses partic1~larly wished to do, and that after that the Committee itself would be involved with the detailed drafting of the actual orders itself.

That instruction, on the May 25th. weekend I was supposed to have been carried out by Wednesday of the n~'Xl week, at least by indications from the PC members on the Committee and by the Liberal members. It is my understanding thai: Lhe Liber.'ll members have had an opportunity to sit down and d i. s c u s s the con t e n t s of t he report. It was my understanding l:h<:ll: Lhe PC cr.~ucus I~Jou1d also have had the opportunity I and all the rnt:~mbC!rs would have been informed of essentially the topic headings and the,~ generaJ. t.:hrust of the report itself. and would be in a po!; ll: i.on l:o deal IAri th it.

Subsequently, Mr. Speaker, I found out lhctl t:hLs was not the case. MR. SIMMS: A fh'r the fact. MR. FENWICK: I agree it was after the fact I but. the fact is I - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. LONG: Why do you him h<'lve hJs MR. SPEAKER: not be a man prJvi1ege? Or-rler, please! MR. MORGAN: and let We heard your story, now sit down. No. S1) R2970

MR. LONG: Shut up! MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, when I found out that the Committee did not have the opportunity to go over it in the first week in June, when i.l: IJJas supposed to, I informed the reporter· I had talked Lo Hnd l said that J felt very bad about the sH·.udL.i .on al: this poi.nt, because I did not want the members of L he P . C . c au c u s f :i. n rH n g o 1 1 t about the contents of the meeting, or the CouunJ.i:i :ee • s rP.port: through the medja, MR. MORGAN: We did not even know over here . MR .

FENWICK: At that point, the report itself did not appear in the subsequent issue of The Sunday Express. I am not sure what the reasons lAJere, but it did not. MR. TOBIN: You shoiJld learn not lo talk to The Sunday Express. MR. FENWICK : I know . I understand the next week, whi.ch was last l.lJeek, l:h~~ caucus did not have an opportunity to meet, as well. AI: thai· . poJni:, I felt it was important to notify the Ch<drman oF the Cornm·i.t:U~e that: I had, according to

Article 7 of 1-.he minul:es at: that: time, Lctlked to the media on it. I did i nf arm l:he Cha:i.rman. 1 am nol : SlJrP. IIJhether the Chairman recalls it or nol, and, g:i.vJng everyonf:' the benefit of the doubt, I assume that he d.i .d not realize thdl: l:.hai might have been notice. But I do assure you, Mr. Speaker, that I did notify him at that time, and that I feel I have dischargE'd my obligations under that particular section. L2971 June 14, 1988 Vol XL It was my understanding that all members oF the House would be apprised of the general details of what had gone on at that time.

For that reason, I feel that that particular section, at least, if the letter of it has not been compli .ed I.Aii.lh, which I understand it has not, I did intend to comply lAJJ l:h l:hr~ sp :i.r i.l: of lhe particular section. Having said that, Mr. Speaker, i:ho S e rH'f:! my argumen ls 011 the actual question of privilege. q1.dl::~ frankly, I do not absolve myself from wrongdoing in this pdrl: i.cular· s.i.lui:ltion. In looking back on it, I realize I did the uJ r o n g l: hi n g .

T s h o u l d n o t h a v e done that, and I freely admi~ that T am at Faull : in this particular situation, i~ not on a question of privilege, surely on a breach of trust of the other members of the Committee. I publicly apologize for that, Mr. Speaker, because it L>Ja s no l my intention to do that . It is just unfortunate that the combination of circumstances led to it. I real.ize t.ha i: it may have jeopardized the contents of the report. I hope nol, because I think it is an excellent report And T. think the members of the Committee haue done a good job.

I CArl do nol:h.i.ng other than to say to the Chairman of the Cornrni t tee, l offer my, dpoJ.ogies. I know it was wrong. Unfortunately, at this point .r. do nol : thi.nk I cRn unrauel the harm that was done as a result of J i:. J do, howeuer. admi l: in front of the Chairman and the other members of the Committee and all the members of the House, that unfortunately there are t.imes in political life when you make the wrong move. I made the lAJrong move. I apologize for it. I do not shirk any responsibility for No . 5 S R2971

it. I hope when the members of the P. C. caucus see the contents of the repor 1: tomorrow t: hey 1.1.ri. J.l realize that it is a major i.nnova U.on, and, in my opinion, i.L· t.uill be an excellent way to run the House in the future. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FeNWICK : On that basis, Mr . Speaker, I ulill sit down. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! I am prepared to hear one argument on each s ide , and then I wi 11 have more to say. The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands. MR. RUSSELL: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker·, for your indulgence. Just a point of clarifJc:aUon, Mr. Speaker.

Ai-. the beginning of the session, you indi.calF.!d Lhal: i.t was l:ho M:i .n.i.si ·.e r of Consumer Affairs and Cotnmuni.caU.ons 1.uho had r·.isen on a point of priviJ.ege yesterday. I would not wanl to blame my colleague, the Minister of Consumer Affai.rs and Communications ·(Mr. Young), for rising on a point of privilege when he did not. Having said that, Mr. Speaker, I, first of all, would like to say that the hon. member for Menihek did not give me any notice. Notice, as I understand it, is something you tell somebody before the fact.

Last week, at one of the social. occi.'\sions dur·lng the visit of Prince Edward, the hon. the mewber For MF.!nihek said t.hai: he had been talking to somebody in The Sunday Express, but: he did l2972 June 14, 1988 Vol XL noi: tell rne v0.ry m1tch. Mr. Speaker, even if he had .called me and sa i.d he tJ.Jas going to do that, I, as Chairman of that Committee, h a lJ e no aut: h or .i. t y 1.: o sanction the release of any report of a Select CommH: l:0.e of thi. s l_egi s lature, nor would I, Mr . Speaker .

The hon. the member for Menihek can wiggle all he wants and say how sorry he is, but I think what he has done to this Legislature and to the members of the Committee particularly, is unforgiveable. There is no question lhal he cannot get out of the fact that he released the basi .c contents of a report to the media, whether he did it a week ago or two weeks ago or two months ago. And by his comments today, Mr . Speaker, he admitted that he had talked to the reporter, so we no1.u have it: c:onf"i.rmed that what was in The Sunday Express was t' o. a~; on a b 1 . y a c: c: u r a i-.e .

T. t 1.ua s a document, as I said yesterday, ulh i ch IAias marked 1 ConLi.dent .ial 1 , and whether this caucus over here, a~; l LhJ.nk the meinber for Fortune Hermitage (Mr. Simmons) said yc~s 1-.erday, hr'ld a chr.~nce to look at it or not, is not really relevant lo the iss11e at : a11. The han. member gets up today and quotes a Minute from one of the meetings of thi.s Committee. I question, Mr. Speaker, if that is not partially a confidentiality thing, tabling the Minutes of a Select Committee of the Legislature in this Legislature. MR. TULK : Yes, Lhat is breach, itself . MR.

RUSSELL: a confide n t .ia 11 y rhP. proceedings, thF.! M:i.nutes and everything pertaining to this CornmJ.l:i.:F.!e, Mr. Sp0.r'lker, 'is pr.~rt of No . 55 R2972

this Legislature. Mr. Speaker, when we meet here, before the public come into the galleries, the Minutes are read but they are read in confidence, the public is not permitted to hear them. I am not saying there is anything in t.:hem that maybe th8 public should not hear, but that is lhe uJay j.l : happens l:o br~ at lhe present time . And this Committee, M r . S p e a k E! r· , '.i s a n e x t e n s i. o n o f the House of Assembly, and for the membe:H' 1·.o even qtJote and Ldbl .c Mjr,utes of the Committee, I suspect, i.n il'.seli' J.s a vi .olr.1l'.i. on. Mr.

Spe~ker, '[ k nOI!J Uw rf'! a r·c ,~ others who want to speak to this again, and then JA.Jf:! tA.JJ J. J. J.el Yo ttr Honour make his decision. MR. TULK : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han . the member for Fogo . MR . TULK: Mr. Speaker, 1 feel that most things that need to be said on this issue haue been said. They were said yesterday and, as I understood Your Honour, the only reason you were not prepared to rule at [-.hal time, and rightfully so, is that you wanted to hear from the member For MenJhek. 1 agree tAJ'i. th the member ro( ' letA.Jisporte (Mr.

Russell) that the t. a b J. i. n g o r t h e r a ad i n g o f t h o s e Minutes ·- and maybe the member for Menihak needs a few lesson s in parliamentary procedure - is i l:self a breach of lhe pr· i.vi.1r,~gc~s of that Cornmi ttee. I agree with him , and let me s l:op right . UH?.re. l..et me deal with this question of notice having been given . The Minutes read, since the han .

L2973 June 14, 1988 Vol XL gentleman has read from them, • u n 1 e s s notice is given 1 , Now, I say to thf.lt han. gentleman sitting down in the corner, I am Vice-Chairman oF that Commit tee and there are four other members on that Co rnm it l: e e besides t: he three of us . We were to act as the Steering Commit tee, the member for Menihek , the member for l .. etAJ:i .sporte, t:hc Chairman, and myself. I say to him that for him to walk up l:o l:ho M'.i.n '.i.si'.er· oi' i:nvi .ronrnE!Ilt and Lands, the member for l.eiAJ'i.sporte, ;H1d say •some lAieek or week and a half ago I talke!d to a reporl.

E!r and, l:hP.reforP- , I have said that, • is not what I would cons ider giving notice . AN HON . MEMBER : At a social! MR . TULK: At a social, I understand. Let me say to him that that reference he referred to, in the Minutes, clearly states • unless notice • is given•. And, of course, it is to be given to the Committee, not to the Chairman, and not at a social . We did that for a very good reason. In case the hon . gentleman does not know it, that is the way Committees act. The other thJng, Mr.

Speaker, i.s the whole idea of the member for Men ·i.hek g i.v·i.ng noU .c8 lo anybody after he had briefed a rE!port:er. I say to l:h(~ mr>.mber for MenihE!k, if I recall correctly the dates he oui:.J.Jnr~d just no1o~1 and l·:he date myself and the member for Fortune flennJU:~gr~ referrr?.d 1-.hi~ ; to the Liberal caucus, I do not doubt but he had alr·e~dy gi.ven that r-eport to the media then. There is s orne doubt i.n rny mind as lo 1.uheth Pr he had not given that report to the media euen before our caucus had a No. 55 R2973

chanc:0. to look at H :; h0 said H1e gou~rnment caucus had not yet had a chanc:e i:o look r.1l : :i.l'.. Mr . Spe~ker, l!Jha t·. t£Jt- ~ hat)e here, clearly, and I say this to Your Honour wii ~h aJ.l due respecl : to t:hc member for Menihek or anybody else in th .i.s House, .i.s a case of r'l person who sits on a Committee and be 1 i e v e s t: h a t the 1~10 r k i n g s of t hat Committee are not as important as foru.Jardtng hi.s polit-ical career i.n the media. What has clearly happened here is the gentleman's political timing was off .

He had given this report to the media with the hope that everybody would have seen this and that the work u.JOuld have been completed on the report, so that he could have picked up some Brownie points as a result of passi.ng this oul: to the media . So the media was more i1nport~ni: to hi .rn than L&Jas ~:he Committee itself. Now, Mr . Speaker, the whole point i. s , ~~ h e t: he r h e h ad g i. v o n no t i c: 8 o r not ·- and we should get away from this i:o Lh0. Cha :i.rman oF tho Committee, and I know the Chairman t~o 11 J d ct g ref:~ lAd t h 1'. h i. s , H~ t h 0. Chairman himself had said, 'Okay, Mr .

Fenwick, t:he mP.mber for Menihek, that is fine. You go ahead and make your release to the reporter,' then I would be rising he r e on a poi n t of p r i v :i. leg e against the Chairman of that Committee because ~e himself, in my opinion, would have committed a breach of privilege before this Legislature. The truth of the matter is, nobody on the Committee dare give, according to Beauchesne, a report or a draf~ report or a

summary of what is in the repori: to anybody, whether it be the media or any other person, or somebody on the government side or somebody on the Opposition sid0, t.:hey darE:~ not gj .vp H: bAfore L2974 June 14, 1988 Vol XL i. t J s p 1.1 L b e f o r e i: h J. s H o u s e . Mr. Speaker·, i: h0. membP-r has apologized. I normal conditJ.ons alright, let us J n c::i. d F.! n t: . T h 0. apologized for priv:i.J.r~ge and, should all forget MR . LONG : He did apologize . MR .

TULK : suppose under you 1~0 u 1 d s a y drop the whole member has the breach of Lherefore, it. we But I say to the Speaker, and to the member for St. John's East, in this particular case that may be too little too late, that rnaybe the confidence of this Committee in the member for Menihek has jeopardized the whole proceedings of lhe Committee and, therefore, we may have to take a very serious Jook as to IAJhether that Committee is going to succeed or not. I am prepared ai: ihi.s point to say to Your Honour that there is a prima fac le c:ase oF breac:h of privilege. MR. SIMMONS : Did .(inaudible) admit it? MR.

SIMMS: lie has cdri'Hl.r.ly admitled that he has breached the privileges of the HotJSC:!, and apoJ.ogized for it . I would suggest that pe !rhaps the Government House Leader might make the appropriate motion. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . SPEAKER: First of all, I would like to say I am sorry I made a mistake in ca1ling the Minister the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications instead of the Minister of Environment and Lands . Befor·e I ruJ.e on thi.s matter, I No. 55 R2974

have been advised that there i.s a procedural di ffi cul ty, and I just wanted some further information from the Chairman, to know if his report reflects the view of the majority of the Committee. MR. RUSSELL: Yes, Mr. Speaker, that is correct. I have been authorized by the members of the Committee to speak on behalf of the Committee, as Chairman. MR. SPErlKER: The reason I say that is, except .i. n ~; om c~ ex c: e p t i. on ;:d . r: .i. r c u m s 1: ~Hl c r:! s , a question of privilege ought not bf.! E:1nt:c~rl.:aJnr~d unl:J.l th0. Comm1U .eP has reported the matter to the Chatr.

Tn l:hal.: case, l t~JOlll.d ~'sk ·t-he hon. minister if he would give tn o a c: o p y o F t h a t.: r e p o r t . .r. h i'l t; e not seen that report and I did not expect to. I am not cnU.lled l·:o a copy of _ it, but I would ask for a confidential copy of it and I will compare it with the

article in The Sunday Express and rule on this tomorrow. I would also like to point out one other thing. This matter is of great concern to me. The authorities and precedents of parliament are clear, ar1d I will quote Erskine May here: 11 The publication or disclosure of proceedings of committees conducted wH :h closed doors or of draft reports of committees before t.hP.y hat;e been reported to U1P. House wiJl, however, constitute a b rea c: h o f p r .i. v :i.1 e g e o r· c\ contempt. 11 I have not seen that r· 0. pori: and I can no 1: ~;a y 1•1 h r' i h c-· r t·he

article in The Sunday Express IAias rl copy of J l: . r o~m quite prepared to look at i I. and deal. wtt:h i.l.: J.al:er on lodily R11i I would like to see that report beforehand. L2975 June 14, 1988 Vol XL. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands . MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, a point of clarification. I h~d delivered, by agreement of the Committee, copies of the report . I had thirty-five, or something, taken off l:he draft report and given to the Chairman of our caucus here, 1.uho distributed i.i: to all members of this caucus.

I suppose the S p e a !<f:1 r o f i: h e I . e g i s 1. a t. u r e i s n o t officially a mE:1mber of caucus, in l.hrl.l h8 nor'rrti'\J.J.y does not ati- .E!nd caucus meetings, but I had assumed he had ber~n g:i.vr~n a copy of this draft document. If that is not the case, Mr. Speaker, T have a draft of it here which Your Honour can certainly -have. MR. TULK: Further to that point, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : rhe hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Of course, the hon. gentleman was right in not sending Your Honour a copy of that report, because the Speaker cannot be a member of the governing caucus.

So he is absolutely right. But I would point out to Your Honour a couple of other things, and that is that the member for Menihek, in his submission to this point of pr :i.v'i.l.f:'ge, adrni.i:ted that the report in The Sunday Express was ctc:r:urdte ;:~nd, thP.refore, the member for Menihek, having known ,,bout i·.h·i .s r·oport, has already told Your Honour that what he will s 0. e i.n i: he r· e po r 1·: :i. s e s sf:' n t i all. y what is in The Sunday Express. I IAJO u J. d As k 'tour Honour i: o take a look at Hansard in that regard, as IA.IO J.J. • No . 55 R2975

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, may I offer just one last suggestion? MR. SPE'AKfR: The h o t1 . 1: he P r c s 'i. d 0 nl : of l: h A CounciJ. ()N HON. MfMRfR : (T.nr.~uchbl,?.) . MR. SIMMS: If the hon . interrupting, member would he might hear. stop I am on a point of order . Mr. Speaker. I think Your Honour said you would like to take a look at the report, and that is perfectly legitimate. I think Your Honour also said that you would probably be prepared to rule later in the day. after you have had a chance to look through it, and I think that is fair. We can wait a 1 i t t 1 C?. 1. on g e r .

T h r.1 t is up to Your Honour, anyway. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh. oh! MR. SPfAKER: Order. pJ.eti:;o! T. am th:is or, for look q 11 i. l-. e p r 0. p r.1 r e d i: o right after Question lf hon. members will ten minutes, I will at the matter now. MR. SIMMS : We are prepared to recess. MR. SPEAKER: J.ook al: Period, recess have a We will recess for ten minutes . Recess MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! L2976 June l'l ·, 198R Vol XI . I compared these two documents, the report of the Committee and i:h0. arU.cJ.e :i.n The Sunday Express.

Taking the first one, 1 Election of Speaker, 1 which is ne1~1. i:hai: :is i.n i.hc:! art:i.cle: 1 Future Speakers in the House of Assembly should be elected jn a free vote. 1 Another: 1 It is proposed thai : a tc~n ·rn:i.nu t.e period be SE!t aside at the beginning of each di'ly. Th0. llouse should discontinUE! the Thursday 11 Late ShoiAJ, 11 1 U1i':'li: i.s 1n the report . 1 The ninety-second statement 1 , that is in the report. From a general glance through it, r do not think anybody could have written an

article like that IAJ-ithout. hav-i.ng if not the exact report. certainly the meat of that report. I am quite ·satisfied in my mind about that. · and I am now in a position to ruJ.e on the point of privilege raised by the han. the Minister of Environment and Lands. F i r .s i: o r r.1 1 l • T s h r.1 ll 1 a y o u t t h e parliamentary precedents.

I would J.:i.kP- i:o n~r.~d May. 1 fly t:.he anciE·nt. custom of Parliament, 11 no act done a 1'. r'l11Y Colllrn:i.'l:.ieA s houJ.d be divulged before the same is repor l:e d t:o i:he House. 11 Rei':'lltchr~snC?.: 11 11 Cornm:lt:tee, hr.wing the right to exclude strangers at any U .mP., i.t may be i.nFerred, has the right to sit in private and haue i.ts proceedings protected by privilege. The publication of its proceedings in that case would be an offence which the House could dei-11 tAli th upon receiving a report from the Committee.

The purpose of 'i. n camera sit. t i. n g s is to a 11 ow Members to feel free to negotiate. discuss, deliberate, and sometimes compromise without the glare of public i.i-y. which mi.ght add to the difficulties of agreeing to No . 1i'i R2976

reports when it is desirable that these proceedings be treated in confidence. The final decision of whether to sit in camera, however, rests with the members themselves." I am quite satisfied that a prima facie case has been established, and I would call on the appropriate minister to make the appropriate motion. The hon. the Presi.dent of the->. Council. MR. S[MMS: Thank you, Mr . Speaker .

Tf I mi.ghl : be permi.U :0d, fJrsl . of a] 1, the motion I am going to make i. s to rf.!fP.r thf.! rna u· .er l'.o HlP Commjttee on Privileges and EJ.ecU.ons to~Ji 1-.h i:hf.! add Ad instruction that the Committee be asked to br·ing :i.n i.l:!; r·epori: And recommendAU.on!; by Fri .c:lay of l:h :i. s week, so that the matter can be deC1.1l:. with be Fore I: he em:l of f:he 1..11eek. I will make that motion now, and I so moue. MR. SPEAKER : It is mov-ed and seconded that this matter be referred to the Committee on Privileges and Elections. On motion, privilege Comm:i.tt.ee Elect .ions. MR.

SIMMS: the matter of breach of was referred to the on Priuileges and I IA.Jould like t:o mAk f.! a n oHH~ r motjon with respect to the co mm i. l: L <H~ o n P r i. v :1. l e 9 e s ,~ n d Elections. The Committee is sl :r·uc:k di : l:he beg.i.nn.i.ng of edrh P~rli~ment. This one was struck br.1ck in 1981). ft. includes lfiPiflher'; by their district, of cour·se, and i.i:. i. n c Jude~:, Hw Former mF.HrtbP r r or Wj ndsor -· Buchans. That was L2977 June 14, 1988 Vo1 XI_ obviously in the old days. The member for Windsor - Buchans now is the Leader of the Opposition.

He certainly does not feel it appropriate that he sit on that Committee. and has asked me to nominate the member for St. Barbe to replace the member for Windsor - Buchans. I so make that motion. MR. SPEAKER : It has been moved and seconded t.hat the hon. the member for St. Barbe (Mr. Furey) shall replace lhe hon. the:! [formf~r] mE:~mber for W:i.nclsor- Buchans. On motion, the member for St. narbc~ repJ.ac:es the [former] member for Windsor - Buchans on the Comm ·i.H :f:!e on Priu:i.J.egE:~s and Elections. Oral Questions MR. TULK: Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKE~: The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr .

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour (Mr. Blanchard). In his response to ques ti.ons on June 6, I·.: he minister attempts to give the impression that he i.s ansl..IJering all the questions raised concerning the poss.i .bJJ.ity of Mr. Da1Ji.d Buffett, Chairman of the Workers' CornpensaU .on Appei'll Tr'ibuna1, being in a conflict of interest s J. 1: 1.1 a U . o n . r n t: h a i: s 1: a i.: em e n t t he minister says, and I quote, "Mr. fl11frei' . has not ,~c;ted for FRCO in a matter that could conceivably come b0.For·e the tr·:i.bllnr.\J.." 1 f.\S k Buffett No.

S'l t:he min :i.st:0.r : Hds Mr . acted for ERCO in a R2977

Workers 1 Compensation matter since his appointment on March 16, 1987, and, if so, in which cases has he acted? MR. SPEAKER : The han . the Minister of Labour. MR. BI .ANCIIrlRO: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Buffett has "i.nfor·mcd me~ t:hai: hA ha!i not: r.~ct.ed in any case. ej ther for employers. F.RCO 'i.ndudE:~d. or employees. liP­ has tJot: taken any cases since he has been Chairman oF the Board. I have a letter from hjm, IHlfortunatc,,ly I do not have i he letter with me today, Mr. Speaker, in which he has stated that to me. MR. TULK : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR .

SPEAKER: A supplementary. the hon. t .. he member for Fogo. MR . TULK : Mr. Speaker. "is the minister aware that on October 1.9, 1.987, seVE!n months after his appointment. Mr. B u f f e t. i: a c 1-: e d a s s o J. i ci . i: o r f o r ERCO in a Workers 1 Compensation m<.'ll ·.:h~r dnd submi.tl:ed a notJce of etppeal in the NetAJfoundland Supreme Court? I ~~~ ·i. J.l. tab l f.! a .l. e U. 1:~ r attached to that notice of app~~aJ.. I ctsk him i.f Mr·.

Buffett made him aware of this case and I also ask him if t.hi .s casf-~ could conceivably come before the Workers 1 Compensation Appeal Tribunal. and, if not, would he tell us why not? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Labour . MR . BLANCHARD: Mr . Speaker, I tAJill matter under advisement. look it over. The hon. has tabled the matter. L2978 June 14-, 1988 take I the will gentleman I will Uol XL look it over, and in good time I wiJ.l give hi.m a r·esponse .. MR. TULK : A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. t:hP. member ror fogo. MR. TULK : Mr.

Speaker, is the minister aware U1 i'l t i. n U1 i. s

part i. c tJ l d r c a s e t: he Court of Appeal may refuse to hea~ 1-.hi .s case, jn JAJhi .c h case the judge will state that this is not, as a mdt:t.r,'r oF fact, a tnatt.E:~r of Jaw, and that this could go back to the Workers 1 Compensation Commission, and then the Appeals Tribunal? If that: i.s the case, then Mr. Buffett is in a Conflict of Interest situation. T. would ask him is he aware of that, and, if that is the case, will he now ask for Mr. Buffett 1 s resignation from the Appeals Tribunal? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Labour . MR. BLANCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, there is a provision i.n l:hr,~ b:i.l.l. i:hni : IAJas i.ntr·oduced creating the Workers 1 Compensation 11pp(:~i'\ls rr'i .btinal t:h.'lt: t:he Chairman. if there is a conflict of :i. nt:er·csl ~. mdy IAJ .i.thdrat.~.J himself from the case and pass it on to somebody else. MR. TULK : Ha! MR. BLANCHARD : rhe hon, m~~mber can laugh 1 but that is in the law. Or thE ! Chairman can determine that some other member is in conflict, and another alternate can be placed . It is the same, I guess, as a judge or the same as Labour Relations Board members. If they No. 55 R2978

find that there is a conflict in a cdse they h~ve an interest in, they declare, or the Chairman declares for thern, that t.hnre is r.1 conflict of interest and they withdraw from that case. MR. DECKER : Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The han . the member for the Strai .t of Bell Isle. MR . DECKER : My question is also for thP hon. f: h e M i n i s t e r· o f I_ a b o u r .

T h e minister must know that if the CotJrt. of AppeRJ.s upholds t:hr,, decision of the Trial Diuision, Hnd l:hus doe:; not ru]r.>. in fauo11r of ERCO in this particular case, Uw nc~xl: r:ottrse of ar:l: :j_on by F.RCO would be an appeal to the Workers' Compc,,nsai:ion T.~ :i.bunal., of ~~Jhi.ch Mr. Buffett is a member and Chr.·drrnan. 1\lot~J. doe!; Ul'i.s nol: pul: Mr·. Ruffett in a conflict of 'L n 1-: e r· e s 1- p o :;i . U . on? MR . SPF.AKER : The hon. the Minister of Labour . MR . BLANCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, I have already answer·ed a question for the hon. member for Fogo in which I said as far as I am concerned, based on what the Chairman has told me, he had not acted in any cases since he was appointed. Now, the answer t.o the hon. member for the Str·ai t of Belle Isle is once I haue checked out a document tabled here today, one that I have to chE:'ck out , I t~d 11 answer his q '·' e s i.. -j on i'l L that time.

But if it is a case in whi .ch he dC ted prior· l:o I he,, i i rne hE:' tJJas appoi _nted i.-\S Cha'i.r·,n,~n ur:· the AppE:1als Tribunal, then if i·t co111e~; to Lhe Tri.bunal. he ~~JiJl declare, pr·esumably, that he has a confJ.i.cl: of i.ni..0resl ·. and somAbody L2979 June 14-, 1988 Vol XL else, the Vice-Chair, would hear Jt. MR. DECKER : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary . MR. DECKER: Will the rninisU-'!r not admit that Mr. Buffett has jeopardized the imparl:.i .al.ity of this cornmittE!e?

If he has to be withdrawing himself from every case thai~. cornes up he has j eopardiZE!d the cormni .tl~c-?.e ;:~nd he mi.~de l:.his tribunal a tota1 sham. W:i ll the m .i. n .i. :; b:' r C\ d m i i: U1 R t , or 1.~ti ll he try and couer up, again, for Mr . Aufft:'i:l? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Labour . MR. BLANCHARD: 1\Jo, Mr. ~>ped!U'r, of course T. IJJould not admit that. MR. DECKER : T d j d n 0 t eX p e C t y 0 U IJJO U l d . MR.

BLANCHARD: And I hRue to se~y to the hon . gentleman that the reason we established an Appeals Tribunal was to give a fair opportunity to workers who have a problem to take it outside of the commission itself and do it in a fair and impartial manner. I haue ~tated i. n t hi s H o u s e , M r . S pea k e r • t hat Mr.

Buffett was the man I considered t.o hi'\ve the most experience with the Workers' Com p E:' n :; cit : ion () c 1: , h r.1 vi . n g d c t E:' d r= or the commission, having acted in U10 Ocean Ranger cdse, hi.wing hi.~d a l.ol : of dt=!cp exped .t:!nce with a complicated piece of l e g .i. s l a i: ion . I I e uJd s my f -i. r s t choice and now it seems that the hon . ye:'nU .t1mi::ln oppos.i.t-.e IJJdni: l:.o No. SS R2979

discredit it. I have already said that the provision is there as for any judge. If what the hon . gentleman is saying, Mr . Speaker , i. s accurate , then no 1 aw y e r , I guess, would be able to be appoint ed as a judge, if has acted for somebody, because, obviously, i f a cas e came beforE:~ h i. m that he a c t: e d t n pre vi o u s 1 y he wo u J d have t.o declar0 a confl. i.c1.: of i.ni:eres l: and some other judge would do it . 11 : i.s the same ki .nd or pr·i.nc i.pJ.P. with the Appeals Tribunal . MR. DrCKF.R : A supplementary, Mr . Speaker . MR .

SPEAKER: A final supplementary, ~he han . the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER : If Mr. Buffett is going to have to withdraw himself from those meetings, has the han. Minister of Labour appointed a Vice-Chairman? If not, when does he plan to do so? MR. SPEAKfR : The han . the M·i.n:i.s ter of Labour . MR. 8LANCHI1RD: Mr . Speaker, the Vice-Chair posi.l :i. on Js nol.IJ 'JRcant. There IJJas a person t-here, also a .lawyer. We have l.:ri .ed Lo hc:we a J.awyE-~r as thf:'! Chairperson, tried to have a l.ai.AJyer as the VJce ·Cha:i.rperson .

It is a complicated kind of thing, i.l: i.s r.1 quas ·i.·-judicial funcl:i .on, we think. It is in the works now, I l.IJi.ll tell the hon. member, l~o have a Vice-Chairperson appointed . MR. SPEAKER : The han . the member for St. Barbe . MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, referr -ing to Power. How to the same minister, the case of Tyrone can the minister L2980 June 14, 1988 Vol XL defend Mr. Buffett 1 s appointment and expect Mr. Power, .a former employ ee of F.RCO, to appear before a supposedly impartial tribunal whose chairman continued t.o work for ERCO seven months after his appoi.nl:rneni :? ConcE:~i .v<ibly, Mr.

Minister, this another case that co11J.d co me bef ore the trib1mal, and is this not clearly a confltct or "i.nteres"l: on the pdrl.: of the chairman? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Labour . MR . BLANCHARD : Mr. ~pec:~ker, J 1: seems to me that we are getting the same questions O VN ' c:~ nd over. But.: I will se~y to the hon. gentleman the name Tyrone PoiAJE!r' has come to rny attention in correspondence. It is very possible that that case will come before the tribunal. Mr. Buffett, I under·stand, did have some actions with the company affecting that person prior to his appointment.

When his case comes. obviously I would expect Mr. Buffett to declare a conflict of i.nterest and to haue the Vice-Chairperson of the tribunal dei'11 1.u:i.th ·i i:. 111 1 1. I s I . i. l. J. h r.1 'J e 1: o r· e p e a t , M r . Speaker, that from where I stand in U10. flouse l:oday 11nl.c,~s~; I fi.nd the document that has been tabled s ho1 .~J s d·i. fforf:!nl :l.y, Mr . U1tffct t has told me that since his appointment hF:' hr.t s noi: dealt 1..u:i. th any cases affecting employers or employees i hN.t co11l.d possibly come befor·e the tribunal. MR. rlJREY : Mr . Speaker . MR .

SPEAKER : A final supplementary, the hon . lhe member for St . Barbe. No. 55 R2980

MR. FURF.Y: T WOIIld li.ke to :i.nfor·m t.h0. mjnister that Mr. Power•s appeal has been postponed indefinitely. I wonder would the minister •mdert:ake now to assure Mr. Power that his case will be heard Lmmerliatel.y i.n the name of fairness and justice? His case has been postponed indefinitely . I would like to ask would the minister give an undertaking to the House today to have Mr . Power•s case heard immediately? MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Labour . MR . BLANCHARD : Yes, Mr. Speaker, most definiteJ.y . T under·stand th<:~re may be a couple of others now that Mr .

A11ffet hds de t-.er·m 'i.ned thai ·. he ,~ may have a confljct of interest b E:~ c a 11 s 0. o f <:~ d r l:i. t:~ r i'l c ti . o n s ; b 1.1 t yes, Mr . Speaker, most definitely, wo wilJ. have a Vice ·Chairperson put in place as soon as possible . HopeF11lly, il : •~ri .ll nol:: i.:dl<e l.oo long . MR. FURFY : Mr . Speaker, a final Sllppl.omenti'lry . MR . :3PEnKER: A final supplementary. MR. FUREY: Now that the minister has seen that clearly there is a possibility of a conflict of interest. in terms of Mr. Tyrone Power, would he also undertake to have Mr .

Walter o•Quinn•s case heard immediately, which has been postponed i.ndef.initely, and Mr . Charles Brinton•s case heard immediately, which has also bee n postponed indefinitely? All of these cases have been poslponerl because of a perceived conflict of i.nter·es t with the chi'\ i nnun appointed. Mr. Speaker, not on] y 1_:?981 June 14, 19811 Vo l XI . that, on the Brinton case - SOME HON . MEMBERS ; Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FUREY: I IAJO u 1 d 1 i. k e to as k i s the minister aware that on the Brinton case, which is nearly a year old, Mr. Brinton had to write the Ombudsman, telling him that Mr.

Buffett clearly was in a conflict of .i.ntert ~st? His case could not be heard, and it is a year old. MR . SPEAKF.:R : The han. the Minister of Labour . MR. BLANCHARD: No, iJtr. Speaker, that particular case has not been brought to my a u·. 0. n l:i . o n . I 1: h i . n k t h E:~ s a l i. e n t word here is 1 indefinitely • , and I I!JO 11 l d 1. hi . n k t: h d. L 1: he F x e cut i. v e Director of the Appeals Tribunal hr.1s probably sai.d i.l- . ·i.s posl~poned indefinitely, meaning until there i.s <:\ Vi.c0. .... Chai .r-person put i.n place to de a 1 with it .

And I can gui'lran l:rH:~ 'Lhe han. rnernber t.hat that will be done very soon. MR. SIMMONS : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The han. the member for Fortune - Hermitage . MR. SIMMONS: Mr . Speaker, T have a couple of questions also for the same minister . He appears to have a fairly laid-back approach to this, Rnd T am wonderiny if it is a case of 1 My party, right or wrong'. I want to take him back to 'J e r y f i. r s t: q 1.1 e :> ti . on t h ct t 1.~o.1a s to him by the gentleman the put from 1\Jo . 5!> R/.981

Fogo. In response to that question, the minister indicated he has a letter, and I believe he undertook to make the letter available. I certainly hope he wi 11, because L f the letter says what he says it says - and I believe hi.m - i.F in the letter Mr. Buffett indeed affirms in writing he has not. take:~n cases, i:he rrd rr.i s tE:~ r t o d a y h a s b e e n p r e s e n t e d wit.h a cont:rr.~d.ici:.ion l:o that vc,~ry statement in the letter. MR. SPEAKER : O;nclc~r, p] O.i'\5('!! MR. SIMMONS: Mr . Speaker, my question is - MR . SPf.AKER: Orde:~r. please!

When I cal1 the hon. member to order, 1 U.Jould ask him to do so. The hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage was talking too long. The han. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS : Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Labour is now that the gentleman from Fogo has tabled a letter·, d11ly signed by DcwJ.d G. L. Buffett, dated October 19, 1987, in IAJhich hE-) i.s acting for fRCO, a div·:i sion of Teneco Canada Incorpor·r.~ted, IAJha i: i.s LhP. rrdrdst.er's view of this conl. :rr.~d:i.ci:ion, that. Mr.

B11ffei ~l: has put tn writing an undertaking ,,.,hi.ch s:i.mpJ.y is not. i:r11e, by h·i ~; own words j s not true? Here is a doc1~ment: subsequenl : to l:he Jetter· to the mjnister - I am sorry, strike that. Not subsequent to the letter of the minister, but subseq1Jent to Mr. Buffett's per·iod of employment, coming on staff with the tribunal, I believe March, 1987, but here is a letter L2982 June 14, 1988 Vol XL that clearly contradicts the substance of the letter . to which the minister referred earlier. What is his view of that? MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour. MR .

BLANCHARD: Mr·. ~-ipc,~c'\kf:·)r, i:he hon . the member for Fortune- Hermitage is setting hims<c~J.r 11p, I thi.nk, clS judge:1 and jury here. I have already, in rc,,sponse i:o l:he 1rwmber for Fogo, said, He has tabled a piece of i.nFor·rnaL:i.on, T llldni·. to hr.W<-:l C\ Jook at it, I u.Jant to examine it in l. i.ghl of the 1~-:~tter T hr.~ve had from Mr . Buffett, and a decision 1.1.Ji. ] 1 b (:~ rna d e . B u t I am n o t g o i n g to be like the hon. member and judge tt before I see it. SOME HON. MEMBERS : hear, hE:'ar! MR. SII\1MONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR.

SPEAKER : A supplementary, the hon. the member for For· tune - liermi tage . MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I will i-.o t:hE:~ minister. The October 19, 1987, dri:er the geni:.J.(:!rnr.ln employ. Any Pages i".hf:' favc)l(r? send it over date on it. is seven months came ~Lnto his want to do me Mr . ~ipc<'lktH', I hdue a supplementary question. Now, Mr. ~pe.~k<:.~r, -i.n response t-.o sorne othE:~r questions in the House, on June 6 lh :) mi.ni:>l :er· j,nd ·i.cl~Led, 11 More recently, and prior to his dppoi ni·.:meni.:, Mr.

BuFFt~l:t acted on long-standing matters telating to the collection of employer assessments. 11 Does the minister not see this as a confllct of interest, to be working for the No . 55 R2982

..! Commission in the collection of employer assessments? MR. SPf:AKF.R: The hon. the Min:i s ter of Labour. MR. OLANCHf'IRIJ: No, Mr. Speaker, not in actions thdi: ht!, really i.n an admi .nj strativE:~ function, undertook for the Wor·kers' Compensat Lon Commission in trying to enforce the collections of assessments from certain employers delinquent i.n assessments . He acted ·i.n that respect. He acted in a number of adminis~ratiue functions immediately after he ·came out of l.c11~ school, I under·stand, Mr. Speaker.

There is where I was c om i n g f r· om w he n I s a l d 1-.: h a l I: thought that he was the best qualifi.(:~d person -i.n the Pr·ovincE:~. I do not know, Mr. Speaker, if we could find a legal mind in the Province who has not acted, p~~dldps "i.n some cases, For Lhe Workers' Compensation Commission. MR. SIMMONS: () f·Lnal. Sljppl.~H!H::~ntary I rJtr ' ~)po,;~kt~r· ' MR. SPFAKFR: A f·i.n;::tJ. sttppl.eiOE!ntary, the hon . HtE:~ member for Fortune - Hermitage . MR. SrMMONS : What the minister is saying is he hds put the arsord.st in chi:lrge of a fire brigade. Now, Mr.

Speaker, we are all in favour• of fair·ness on that tribunal as well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: 'order, please! MR. SIMMONS: I ask the mi.ni.st.er, Mr. ~3pedh~r. despite h:is best efforts to make thi.s tr· ·i.bundl d fc:dr mE:~chcud:;m for L298J June 14-, 1988 Uol XL. the Brintons and the Powers and 0' Qtt inns, tAri lJ . he no'•' not ddmi t that this whole process, because of the ·i nuol.uemont of Mr. Ouffett, has become an entire sham? The td .bttni'll. i:; nothtng ~;hort of a sham, Mr. Speaker. MR. ~3IMMS; What is the question? MR.

SIMMONS: tam asl<ing the:> mi.nister, does he not agree that this whole pr·ocE!SS has become a sham, when the minister responsible has become preoccupied with adjudi~ating whether the Chairman of that tribunal is in conflict on this or this or this? Would it not be mtjch s-i.rnpl i.er, I Rsk the minister, if he! had somebody there who was clearly not in conflict? MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Labour. MR. BLANCHARD: No, Mr. ~)pc,'akc,~r. A simple answer, no. I would not admit that b H U\11 S 1-:~ ·i. i·· :i. S n 0 t i: t' I I P. . MR. SIMMONS : 11 ncl i.l-. :i. s s not.~li. ng 011 t there, t.oo . MR.

FFFORD: Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The han . the member for Port de Graue. MR. EFFORD : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, my question is to the mi.ni .stl~r of Consumer· Affairs (r..,r. Young), if I could get his attention from that paper for a s e con d . I t wa s rep or t e• d j u s t r e:~ c e n t l y , rJt r . ~)pea k '~ r , t h a t. the cost of drugs in this Province and LhE:~ rest of Cc\nacla hi'ls ·inc rea s Pd No. 55 R2983

four times the rat:e of inflation, and _ is greatly affecting senior citizens and the poor people of this Province. I ask the Minister of Consumer Affairs if he can confirm it is factual, that it has incr·eased fotJr times the rate of inflation, and/or what actually has the increase on drug prices been over the last several months? MR. SPfAKFR : The hon . i.hE:~ Mtni.ster of ConstHnc->.r' Affairs and Communications . MR. YOUNG : Mr.

Spectker, I cannot confirm that drtJg~; hr:~tJC incr·t:~i'\SC:'c:i l·hrc'!C:'Fol.c:l or f o tJ r· f o J d o u e r t he 1 a s t two or 1-.hrP.e rtiOnths. f krJOL•J L•JE! h;:WP. had ~;orne contpla:ints -t:hdt tJJe looked 'Lnl:o and t'l.gai.n tt: t•Ji'\5 just bec:dtt!iF:~ of competition or the availability oF dr11gs . I know lha-t: one cast->. which I can speak of. I cannot confirm it, Mr. Speaker . MR. EFFORD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . t.he member for Port de:~ Graue.

MR. fFFORD : If the minister· has ha.d enquid .os recently he should be able to conf .irm dr·ug price incr·eases because he should hatJe looked into them . T ctsk the Minister of Consurne:'r Affairs, because of the enquiries he has r·ece:'iued r.Hld becattse of the c->.ffc->.ct. ·it is hav:i ng on the senior c i. U .ZE:'ns iHJd peopJ.e ,.ri. tho11 L a drtty insur·ance plan, tJJould he tJnderti'lkE:~. rllttflb('!r one, to see tAJh,'l.l ·. kind of increase we haVE! experi.enc:Pd effect it is citizens? r·eceni-.1y, having on L2984- June 14-, 1988 and the our senior Uol XL MR. SPEAKFR: The hon. the Minister of.

Consumer Affairs and Communi.cations. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, my officials have dealt with the several enquiries I haue received and we have given an ex p 1 an ct U . o n 1: o the s e p eo p 1. e of the cost, and so forth of the drugs, but it is R private market out there and the cost of drugs is mora or Jess controlJ.ed by competation in the marketplace. Ml~. LFTORI) : Oh, my goodness. A final supplementary, Mr . Speaker . MR. SPFAKER: rhe:~ han . !:he 1netnb<:~r for Port·. de Graue. MR. EFFORD: We understand that privatE! competition drives up the cost, but l:hat i.~; not. :·.hE! issue.

The question is what is the minjster and his government going to do about the drug cost increases and UH?.. hardship i.t: i.s placing on senior citizens who need these dr'tJgs? tr pr·Luate enterprise is going to increase the price, and senior citizens tH:~ed money to buy them, what is the Minister of Consumer Affctirs going to do about the problem and the irnpac t it is hauing on senior cilizens who need these drugs? MR. SPEAKf.R: T h t-:' h o n . t-. h c,~ M i n i . s L c~ r of Co n s u mer· Affairs and Communications . MR. YOUNG : rk . ~> p c a k e r , t-.1·1 i:d ·. i. s question.

If the hon . cdnno:· . ttndersbuld U1c1l: can do. MR. LONG: No. 55 Lhe same gentleman is all l R2984-

Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the member for Sl'. John • s Fast. MR. LONG: J have a question for the Minister of Carc->.er nevel.opmont: Rnd Ad'J•HH:ed Studies. If he is within ears hot h(~re I IAIOI.Ild l..i .ke to giv~:~ h.i.tn t-.he opporturd ty to come into the House toddy and oFfer a fetAl wor·ds of explanation to students and i. n s t r· u c t o r· s a t t: h e C a b o t I n s i:. i 1: 11 Lc,, MR. YOUNG: Where was your leader yesterday when he was not in the House? MR. LONG : I am sure he would be delighted to have the opportunity to address their concerns. MR. SIMMS: Ask your question. MR.

LOI\JG : T would lj ke to have the Minister of Car<:~er Deve.lopm(~ni: and (ldiJc'lnc(:!c:l Studies in his p] ace, Mr. Speaker, i.f I trti'ly . r. am i:old thai: hP. ·i!; coming. MR. MATTHEWS: Ask your q11esti.on. MR.

LONG: I wo u J d J i k e to as k the M i n i s t e r of Car·e~:~r Development i.f he would take the opportunity to respond to the concerns that are being brought forward by students and .i n s t t' tJ c to r s a t t h e Cabo t 1 n s t-.i L u t_ ~, and, in particular, to the tJJould-be students who have l·lc•<'n waiting for a number of coursE:'s, in some cases for a numbt>r ur years, who I understand havE· been left i n L i tn b o and hi:\ v e b EH-Hl 1 n"' k i n g representation to his department. L2985 .June liJ., 1988 \) o J.

X I Could the minister explain to the llotJSf;! whaf·: he 'i.s si:lyi.ng .to people who are coming looking for courses which they were given lo expect would be offered at the Cabot T 11s1: i. 1:111: e? MR. SPEAKER: r h P. h o 11 . I. h o M i. 11 i. s 1: e r o r c a r· e e r Development and Advanced Studies. MR. MATTHEWS : Mr. Sp~::~aker, thai:. asked last week in qtJE:~st.ion tJJas the Assembly dl1d answers were given accordingly. As I said at that t·i.me, of i:he Cabot Ins t.i tut.e has a new mandate, a new Board of Cover·nor·s, d neiJJ President.

We ar·e going about restructuring ·the post-secondary education system in the Province . MR. SIMMS: A new minister. MR. MATTHEWS: Yes, a new minister as well. ThE-) insl:i .i:11Lo .:i.s ci:\rryi.ng out~ it:s mandate, Mr. Speaker. There is changP. in ~he post-secondary education system in the Province. We dre :i.n:i.l· .'i.at ing r:hdnge so that we offer courses which better p r· P. p .u· e o 11 r s 1: 11 d e n t s i. n t h e Province for the labour markets.

Wf:~ haiH~ been, for the lr.\st number· of years, giving courses and t:ra.i.ni .ng f:h(~tn for occupations and careers for which there has not been &ldt~quate employment. If you look at the employment record of some of the graduates who have been turned out by some of our institutions and vocational schools around the Province, you will find that the success rate in finding employment has not been very good at alJ.. So we are changing the mandate of the Cabot Insti.t.ute, the Fisher Institute, and the Marine Institute, Mr. No . r; 5 R2985

Speaker, to make our courses more pertinent, a.ncl to train 011r students so that they are more attuned to the present day cur·rent labour markets. MR . LONG: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han . the member for St. John's East. MR .

LONG : I would like to ask the minister how can h0 just ·i.fy his c:ornrnent. s with res pE:: ~ c t to the reorgani .za lion o f t h e s c h o o l s y s l: ern I)J h e n c d b o L Institute for the last number of Yl ~~rs h~:; had thr,~ stronge:'!; 1·. rf:~cor·d j n the~ Provj nee of meeting thE:~ lctbour· force dt:~rndncl for gr·adlii:ll:es of these courses 1..uh :i.ch have been ta.r·gEd :ed for· Clll:bac!<s?

Wo11ld the mJnister address sp ecifically how he can j11sti .fy hi.:; cornment:s 1~ri.l' .h respect to the particu]ar courses t h ct t a r e be -i. n g c u t b a c k i: h a I. h i:l v t:~ proven to be among the most successful at any institution in thE:~ Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced ~tudies. MR. SIMMS : Which ones are they? MR . LONG : The ones that are being cut. MR . MATTHEWS: The obvious questton, Mr. Speaker, as t:he President .: of the Ca11nc:iJ asl<ed, is: Which courses are thE: ~y?

Th(~ informat ion t·.hal: T hcl'H:~ obta j nE:1d thr·ough the off:i cials of HIY de par l:ment and fro1n conver satjons with both the P r· e s :i. d e n t a n d t.h E:~ B o a r d o r Governors of the Cabot Institute is l:hal : Lhe courses thai. : are being L2986 June 14, 1988 Vol XL phased out at Cabot in most cases are bcdng offcr·ed i.n the community college system of the Province, so it is not like t.hey are being completely eliminated.

This government is t.rying to take courses out and about the regions of Uw Pr·ovince so that the courses are more accessible to students in their own r·egions so it will reduce the cost. This is thE:~ gover·nment t.hat for the first time offered first year university courses ~t Grand ~alls and Lewisporte.

This is the govc'!ri10IE:'I'l'l: I~Jhi .ch fJr·st esb ~bl. ·Ls hed a community college system in this P r· o v ·i. n c e , l:. o b r o k e r c o u r s e s o u t around the Province from the 11 n :i 'J c r ~d 1: y i'l n d i: he t n s U. t.u t e s . so we are not trying to take away <:1.1'1 y th .i 1'1':], r-'lr· . SfH:~a k E-~r. We ar ·e trying to provide greater access d n d \,F' ~"a h :~ r· o p port: 1 J n i U . e s to you n g Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, 011l: ;u1d i'\b011l: lh~:d .r o1..un ar·eas of the Province, to better prepare them for · j o b s i. n 1: he f u 1: IH ' e .

And I can say to the han. gentleman, fr·orn lhe i.nformation thai: T have received that entrollment in a lot o f 1~ h E:~ c o IH' s E:1 s t h a t a r· e b e .i n g phased out or are being transfer·r·ed to t.he community college system over the last number· of years had been very low, they had been half full . So how cc1n you justify that., Mr . Speaker , having classes half full and instructors being paid full-time? This is the situation that we find . ~>o I~H=~ i"lre i.rd.t:i.atJng change, Mr. Speaker. We are not only talking ;:~bo11i: dldnge, IAie clre h;:wing change. ~3 0MF HOI\J . MFMBERS : H e a r· , hear !

MR . I ONG: M r· . ~:) p (o~ a k E:1 r . r.IIR . SPF.AKER : No . 55 R2986

A final supplementary, the hon . the member for St. John's East. MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker, in view of what the mini.s l:er has j u:;i: said T 1/JOI!l.d like to ask him has the principle of r:tccess to pub1'i.cl.y F11nded po:.t- secondary vocational training bE:1corues ~~ pri .nd .pJ.e onJ.y beyond the ovE:!rpass? My question to the rnJni .si :er· i.s: If he 1.o~d.l.l iicknowledge the fi:tct that thE:~ r' P. o r g i'l n i. z rl t. i. o n o f 1: h E! post-secondary system means that publ:i.cl.y funded vocat. i onal training will now not be ctccr::~ssible lo residents and young people of St. John's?

In a drive to addrpss r·eglonal nr::H~ds elsewhere in the Province, St. John's is being asked t.o sacr·if:ice:~ publicly funded education programs. MR. SPfAKFR: The hon·. the Minister· of Caref:~r Development and Advanced Studies. MR. MATTHEWS : Mr. Spea~er. IAJha l a ques I: ion and what a statement! MR. LONG: This is r::~xactJy exactly what is h~ppeni.ng . You i'lr'l:~ telling pt!Ople to go to do1JJntown Carbonear to look for an dpclri:menl: to i:.~kc a course. MR. MATTHEWS: Whr.lL i.s to~wong wit:h t.hat? Wht:li : i~; 1.urong u.d th going . to downtown Cr:\r·bonear t:o get. an ed11cdi: :i.on :in this Province?

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MATTHEWS: What is wrong with that? I had Grand to Bank leave when my hometo1.un I was sixteen of to L2987 June 14, 1988 Vo1 XL come l:o St. John's to go to university. Now what is wrong with that? I am no worse a person for it. I would hau(:~ l:i.ke l::o hr.uJe done .i.t do1JJn i.n Burin. MR. SIMMS: ln f,H;i: yo11 clt'(;~ i'l beU :e r pr:H'son for it. MR. MATTHEWS: F.Xc\Ci:ly. rhr:~ han. gonl:lt~nlcHl tc\lks about lack of opportunity in St . John's For education. Thert-?. is $183 million being spent this year in post secondary education in this Province.

Memorial University, located in St. John's, is getting $100 million from this goutH'nment. Cabot Institute is getting $12 million this year from this gouernment. The Marine Institute is getting another $7.2 mi 1lion this yPa.r fr·om this government. Located where, Mr. Spe:~Rh~r? Located LloJhert~? Baie Uerte, Gr~nd Falls? St. John's, Mr·. Spet:~.ker. Whdt. a r·idiculous s l:aternent! {):; [ Si'li .d before I r.,r 0 Speaker I IAJe are trying to broker courses from l.hr'! i.nsl-.il:lli :e ;_wd l:he uni.lJer·s-i.t.y out and about the Province.

The rn1mber· ·of co11rses l.:hat w] .1l nol: be offered at the Cabot Institute th.i.s year, Mr. Speakt~r, i.n most part will be brokered and offered to tho cornrnunity collegt:~ systE:'m. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Heclr, hear! MR. BAKER : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Gander . No . s lj R2987

MR. BAKF"R : fhank you, Mr. Speaker. n quesU.on t:o the M.i.rd.si:1::1r of Career Development, again in response to a quesl:ion I asked last Thursday about a girl from Gander who 01~1es $5. IJ.OQ for a two-week stay at Harbing~r. The minister said that the Secretary of State should cover the cost.

Noto~J, oi.n view of the fact that the minjster's department is responsible for· the c:idrninistr·~l:ion of student loans and for seeing that pr·oper· proced1u·es ar·e i.n pJ.ace in the paying of those s tudt>ni : l or:\ns and l·.:hai-. hP. ker::!ps proper track of the student loans, ·i. n l. j g hi:: 0 f rl 1 J. l: h i. S , IAJ h y -i. S t hI'! minister now trying to pass the b111:k to a Ferh~r'cll depari:rnE:'ni: U1.:1l: has nothing to do t.ui t h this? MR. SPF.:nKER : The hon. the Minister· of Career DeveJ.opmt:~ni: . MR. MIHTHF.WS: The hon. gentleman has to be fair about t.h:i.s.

I c:li.d not say what he said T said last week. I said that from my investigation, from talking to the officials in the depar·trnent at the executive levE:~l and from talking to the people at the Stunent Aid div ision, that it would appear the only recourse for some possible solution to have the debt eliminated would be to mak 'e representation to the Secr·etary of State. I said it was a Canada Student Loan program administered by the Province, but the final d1:1ci.si.on lH' jurisdiction, t.uheth~::~r to uphold a debt or eliminate a d E:' b l , r E! s l. s 1.u i. t h i: h e S e c r e t a r· y of State.

Now, that is what I said lr.lst u.Jeek. Whr.~t: I did sdy to yo11 in Uds House, to all members prc,~sE:'ni :, l.lklS i:hdl: my depari:rnc-~nt would be very willing to assist i: h o s e s i~.

IH:I e n t s i. n p r 1:~ p a r ·i n g d L2988 June 14, 1988 Vol XL letter of representation to the S e c r· e l: i:t r y of S i: a t C:~ , l o o u t 1 :i. n e everything that has ha~pened in thi.s r.C\sc~ oF Lhe Harbi.nger· School of Business, which failed, and to ask the Secretary of State if they would consider writing off the debt. 1 sC\id, as well, that maybe when the Department of Secretary of Stab:~ knows all the facts, they may consider doing that. That is what 1 said last week. MR . BAKER : Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The han. l:h1:~ Jn(~mber for Gander. MR .

BAKER: I thank the minister for verifying thctl:. he is indeed passing the buck.

Tn view of the fact that the t:111di.t:or Cener·,"l, i'l yerH' C\nd a halF ago, pointed out that there were i. rn p r o p e r· p r o c t'! cJ 1 1 r ~~ s i. n 1: e r m s of keeping track of student loans, in 'J i.e! tAJ o f 1: he f C\ c i: t: h C\ t: 1:: h e minister's department is r·espons:i.bl.E:~ for· privr.lte schools and responsible for student loans, i:Hld l:he minisU~r·'s depar·tmE!nt incorrectly paid this money to a pr· ·i.vr~tE:~ school and did not see that it was properly administerE!d once it got there, in light of all that, will the minister now stand i.n his place and tell those students that the minister's department, t.uhich is responsible for all this happening in the flr·st place, wi.ll r·eimburse these students, or at least, relieve 'I·Jwm of l.hat d1:~bt .: of the studE!nt loan?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: llodr, ~H:~ar! MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Career Oeueloprncnt and Advdnr.erl Studios . No. 55 R2988

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated to the hon. gentleman, I cannot do that. f v en if I wanted to , I cannot do that. As the M.inister of Career Oevelopment and Advanced Studies for this ProtJi.nce, IJJho i:ldrntrdster's a Canada Student Loan Program, I cannot do thdt.

The o L h I:H' l: h t n 9 r IAJO 1 1 J d l i. kt,~ t· o sd.y to the han. gent1eman is that l. h e C a n d d a ~il: 1 11 I e n L I . o <:Hl c: h f:' q 1 1 f.! ~; ar'e made out to both l he s chao] .~ncl the studt'!l'll : Thn :;t-11cl(~nl: th< ,~n entE·r·s j nto an agr·eement with the S C h 0 0 J. , IAJ ~d_ C: h h C.~ p p E! n 0 d j n I h i S case, whereby the money went to LhE' school.

As Ulf:' hon. gentl.ern;'ln scljd so correctly - the only thing ccHTt':'ct h(~ sdid in his stdt-.ement sa :id j,s that the money was paid up fr'ont, and, as d. consc.;!quencE:~ of the student he is talking about c h a n g j. n g h e r· m i n d a b o q t t h e program and dropping out after two or' t:hrel.;! IJJeeks, my information is that the student is owe .d $2703 .83 from the school. She usE:~d up sorne $921 that was retained by the school for the amount of time she was there. So that is the · si.tuali.on.

WE~ hcwe an r:~ct l"hal: hopt'Ful.l.y IAJE:~ wiJl be dealing with today that IJJi.ll betLf:'r' r·l~911lah:~ pr-i.tJdb:' s c:hoo] s in thE:~ Prov-.i neE:~, that w~i lJ i:r.li< P. car f:~ of so rne oF L h f.! p r;o b l. f~ tn ~; that we hav .e seen over the last feu.J tnonth:s, par'Li.c11larly l.&.li.lh H a r· b l n g e r . T cannot w r· i t e off IJJhcti: i:hE:~ han. gE~nt1cc~rnan SdY :; .

T have offered a course of action Uldl I, ~5 1nin:i .slcr, i.Htd lhP department are willing to pursue to hc,~lp thOS(~ stt1dent:s to l.r'Y cHid get over this problem and SE•e if HH.;! d(:~bt would be wr·ittf:!n orr by the SecrE:~tary of State. That is the only thing that I can do . MR. BAKER : L2989 June 14-~ 1988 Uo] XL A fi .nal supplem~)ntar·y, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon . the member for Gander. MR. FUREY : Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

In light of the fact that the rn-inisi :C!r c:·1d1nJt :s Lhiotl ·: hi.s department is responsibJ e for all t:hnst-) ih :i.ng:; T j11sl ·. 111enl:ionr-~d, and in light of thE~ fact that I did n o L ':" :; k Uw rrr L n i. ~; t E! r t-. o IAJt' i. 1 (~ i. t off, I asked the minister's dc ,'prH'i :triE!rlL lo pay !:he dc~bt for· those students because it was thE:~ depi:H'Lrnt~ni:':; mi .sl ~ake, will the minister now go to the President of Tr·~~a~ur ·y Boi::l.rrl if the minister cannot do it himself and make;! the r·eques t that Treasury Board pay the improper debt that Utese students have now to bear? MR.

SPEAKER : The han . the Minister of Career Development Rnd Advanced Studies. MR. MATTHEWS : Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman is ask tng 11s to go For'IAJard and look for monies to pay something which h d s 11 0 t I:H>. ~H1 b I I d g e t t! d r 0 r . El u t as well, of course, upon i n u r~ s U. g d L i on d s a r t:~ s 111 t of questions in this House on the SllrfrH:n T find Utdl: in 1986 .... 1987 and 1987 -· 1988 some tLAJenty-UJJo s L 1 HJ r-Hl L s h r'l u E:~ s Juri l. d r· p r o b l . (:~ rn s , for a total of $24-,782 .

Now, how rrtrll'lY mor't,' :;ttJdenLs 'in thP Provi .nce or in the country -- not only in Ut<:~ P r· o wi n c f:' , i 1·. i. s d C a n a d a Student Loan problem - have got s :i rn l. l. e1 r rl i. f F .i. c u l U . <:! s ? So o n c E! y o u set a precedent, where does it stop? MR. BAKER: It was caused by your incompetence . No . S 5 R2989

MR. MATTHEWS: So, Mr. Speaker, I thjr1k i. n c o rn p e t: e n c e i. s b e i. n g d .i. !; p l a y l:1 d i. n thi!; House today by a member who does not IAJi.'lnl: <""n answer· l·.o a question. J would ask him at least to be polite. SOME HON. MEMBERS: He:~ar, hear! MR. MATTHEWS: I do not mind the han. gentleman as k i. n g me a question and I t r· y to gi.ue him an answer as Fr:dr1y' and as honestly as I can, but when he per· s is t. s in inter-rupt -L n g me I then that makes life somewhat difficult.

The type of nature and personality I have, I tend to behave the same wRy as l.he hon. gentleman, and if I do that we will. nol Nccomplish anything. All T. ccln b:1J.l UH:1 han. gf:1ni·.1l-:1nli:Hl1 Mr. Speaker, i~ that I am very wiJ.l.·jng l:o assist: Lhose si:IIC'Il:1n-l·.s j11 the rnannf:1r 5uggesb:1d in my ,:Hl S I~J f:1 r· S J. r\ S '(: I~J €:1 C:~ k i·\11 d 1: h i. S l~H-:1 0 k . As r8gards to going forward to J.ook hH' monf:1Y Lo IAlt'.'i.i~e it off I Mr·. Speake:1r·, no, I 1.~odll not. be doing i:hal:. MR. SPEAKFR: Or•dtH', plel""sc.! The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. Notices of Motion MR.

SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The:~ han. the President of thP Counci.l .. MR. SIMMS: On behr.ll.F of 111y col.lei.'lgiH.;! t·.hp 1..2990 June 14-, 1988 Vol XL M 'i. n oi. s i:c~ r o r J 1 1 s t:i. c e I T. g i. tJ e n o t: i c e that I will on tomorrow ask leave l.o i.nl:roduc:l,~ l"" bi.l.l 10~nt.i.l:l.ed, 11An Act Respecting The Protection Of iluu1an Ri.ghLs.'' nndl dl.so on behalf of the Minister of Justice, I g'i.ue notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bi.1l. f~ni·.H:ledl 11An Act To Amend The Corporations Act.11 Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given rJJR. RUSSELL: Mr.

SpE!aker. MR. SPEAKER: rhe hon. the:1 Minister· of Environment and Lands. MR. RUSSELL: r~ r . ~) fH~ .~ k l~ r· I r 14Ji. s h t o t a b l e ansiAJers to two or three questions po~;pd by LhE:1 hon. t:hc TIIE:HnbtH' for Stephenville. On 24-May he pose:~d 5 Clflll·~ q 1.1 e s U.o n 5 p E:~ r I· cl in in l:3 l o t: he storage of PCBs generally and some inFurmc""ii.on pe:~rf.a·i.n-i.ng t.o Stephenville specifically. Orders of the Day On motion, that the House resolved itself into Committee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. Committee of the Whole MR CHAIRMAN (Greening): Clr·tipr· I please!

Tile hon. t()IJrlC j l the President of the MR. SIMMS: 0 r d f~ r· 1 I A 'i.l.l No . 1 . No. S5 R2990

A bill, 11 An Observance Of (Bill No. 1). Act Respecting The Remembrance Day . 11 Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. MR. SIMMS : 0 r· d e r 4- , B i. l 1 ~~ o . 1 6 . MR. LONG: Mr. Cha:ir·man. I'-1R . CHAIRMAN: r h e h o n . t h e rn E:~ rn b ~H· r o r ~:l 1 · • J o h n ' s Fetst. MR. lONG : Thank yo11, Mr. Cha:i .rmdn . T wo 11l. d 1 i. I< t:~ 1·: o h •:-t tJ f:~ a f ebJ '''or· d s at this point in Committee on this impor·tant bi .ll. !'hE:~ mt>.mbE:'Y' For Menihek (Mr.

Fenwick) is doing his bt:~st to retrieve sotne amendments which we give notice of and that I am sure the hon. House Leader w.ill recall. For· us this is a si.gnif:lcant bit of legislation which we have been aski.ng for· for· sonlt->. time and l.t.Je want to, again, raise our very serious concerns ctbout the impacl··. Uds bill will have on, at the pr·esE=Hlt moment, this Ccli!CIIS of l-\,~Jo members, but in the future, any t h j_ r d c e:w c u s s i t. U. n g i. n L h E:1 H o 1 J s ~.-:~ who would not be guaranteed r·e prt~ s enl-.a I: ion on the comrn.i. t h:~c.

As we sr.~i.d, we are very ple~sed lo :.ee the~t the Premier has responded l:o dt~rnands rnr.~de by f:hP. rrtf:1fllbf~r· lew MerdhE:~k and finally br·ought For1~1ard c\1'1 Tntern•:1.l.

Econotny 11 i 1 J to etddress some necessary revisions, but: we clre u0ry concerned that what this bill is do-i .ng .i.s two things: One, ct1Li:ing out our own participation on this Commission; and then, 1-IAJO, by L2991 June 14, 1988 Vol XL virtue of not allowing participation by the third caucus, i.t puts us i.n a situation in which we could be in violation of rules established by the Commission to govern the actions of all members of the I.e g is l. a l: u t' e . We find ourselves in a very C'lt~Jki~Jard posi. t:i .on, Mr.

Chai.r·man, and again we want to put our r· e s C"! r· v a Li . o n s a b C)ll t I: h i. s o n t h e record and want to appeal to the g 0 0 d S fHl S t~ 0 j- d C:1 C (:1 n C y , f i'~ .i. r p 1 clY and integrity of the Government :1o11Se l.(:'i~df.!r' .i.n 1,1h i ch i·.ht~ Int .("!rl'li'll Economy Commission, as a CommittE!e 0 I \': h i.

S H 0 II S C:~ , I..U :i. 1.1. b 0 C h a r g e d IAli th determ:i ning rules, guidelines o"lnd proccdllr·es ,,,hJch govern all hon. members of the House in terms or s e i: L :i. n g sa 1 t:1. r y 1 eve 1 s and providing amenities for caucus o f f i. c t,~ s , i n g e n t>. r a 1 , d e f i. n i n g t he privileges and responsibilitiE!S of mPrnbcH'S of the HotJSe and laying out certain rules members will be bound to. Mr.

Speaker, because of the first stipul.ati.on of this bill, which u.1e have a problem with, namely, we are not guctranteed representation on this Committee, if that is allow~d and l".he Cornmiss i.on ls sit ting and drawing up rules and gtli ,d~l i.nt'!s l~o govt-)rn the responsibilities and the actions of (,)l)ery hon . rne10ber, 11.1e could fir1d ourselves in a very awktAJard dnd "'tH1r1J llnforl-.um~tE:1 sit.uc::d:i.on in breach or in violation of rules d~~i· .~-:1rmi .rlf:'d !:haL •~•H w·i .l. l. not hc:we been party to.

We will not be :i.ntJJI:nd l:o pr.~rti .c.i .pah:' Ln dny d'.iscussion on any rules lhat this hon. lnl:<:1rnal Fconorny Comrni.ss ion may decide to bring into place , i'li'HI so tAle hi:\Vt::1 no ab "i.lil ·:y to consider the considerations of this Comrni.ssion, ctnd so we u.Jlll not know any rationale or any basis for rules which might be No. 55 R2991

bro11ght i.n that 111e uJ.i.ll · h~v~:~ i:o judge ourselves accordingly by. We, ac a third caucus in this HOIJS!:~, ;~re nol : jll~>l rnf-Hnber·s or a caucus. We are equal to al J other hon. mernber·s ds tnd i iJ i du;~l metnbe~r·s of the House of Assembly, sent her<-:~ Lo do a job, to r·epresr.:1nl·., i.n the best way !Ale can, the interests of our consti.l:.ueni:s . So, IAJe c:ll.l., independent of whatever party group of caucus 111e might b<-:' a member of in the House, are individual member's. Mr· .

ChaLrman, it would be qu .it (~ ridiculous and quite lacking in common sense and certainly lacking in fair play for the government to take the initiative to establish an Internal Economy Commi s sian which does not i.nvi.t.t~ Hnd E:~nsiJre participation that will represent the interesl :s of c~Vt:: !ry single member of this House .

What 111e have :is a situat:ion in 111 h i. c h I -.l"lt:1 T n t. e r n a 1 r. c o n o rn y Corrun:is~ion, well, could, in the IAiay Ute t'lllf:1S c:~re bt~i .ny pt'P.Sf:~ni:Hd :i 11 t.h:"i s BiJ J, be made up by a flip of "' co i. n . r h d l·. i. ~; IAJ h d t 1: he L :i beraJ Opposi t:ion etgr·ees to offer d s .~ con c ~) s s i on 1-. o the con c c,~ r· n s IAJP have raised; they would flip a coi.n . 1 WOIJld suggest to the Government House Leader, Mr. Chairman, that is an absolutely ridiculous proposition as a proposal for how to go about our· business.

Conducting the business of the House by t.he toss of a coin i.s not something we are interested in agreeing to as a concession to meet our concern. What we are say i.ng i.s this Rill i.s Fl.atued because it does not guarantee that IAJe , as r.1 th i.rd group ·i.n Uti. !; House, will be given r· c~ p r e s ~Hl b'l -1.: i. o n . L2992 June 14-, 1988 UoJ XL ~)

C) I i. n 1-h f:~ e

I) P. n t. t h r'll: Ul E:1 Government House Leader .does not ,;u:cept 1-be r.unendmE:1nls IAJhi.ch I am about to propose, as soon as the rnernber ror· t.IIE:Hlihek .is back i.n ~ri.s seat, in the event the government does nol : accept the amendments to ensure representation by the third gr·oup in thi .s Ho11se, tJJe will. be i.n a situation in which members of I hE:~ golJP.r'rllrJt,~ni :: part.y and mernber·s of the Official, loyal Liberal Opposi . i·.i.on 1.1Jill bt~ siU·. i.ng down to have discussions to arrive at a set of gui.del -Lnes, procedur·es and responsibilities of alJ fifty-two mernbt'r 's of lhe House and we will have no idea what is going on in those di.scussions .

A s c:t r' t~ s 111 t , as I have s aid , and I will say it again in case members are not. entirely clear about why I am standing in my place today to object- . v i.gor·ously to the Bill which js jn front of us, we could be i.n d si .l:uati .on :i.n whi .ch two parties establish a set of rules IAihi c:h ;u·c~ de s :i.grH ,~d i:o gui .dE! our actions, as well as everybody e l s f~ , i". o g 11 .i. cl f:~ all t 11 e i. n d i. IJ i d u a l members, and we could eventually r-j nd OllrSt~}IJt!S i.n d po~;-i_i"_j_on IJJhE:H'e we would be in breach of those t'lllcs si.1nply becaiJSE! 1.11e d:ld not know what they were.

So, Mr. Chairman, again, I would appeal. to the basic common sense of the Government House Leader, a gentleman 1.11ho I know on numerous and continuous occasions demonstrates common sense and good faith and I think fairly conducts thP business of the government day to day, and week to week in the i n t. c.:. r· E! s t o f fa i. r' p 1 ci y , t: h a t i. n t h e interest of fair play the r, o v e r n ntt:' n t.

H o u s e L e a d e r s h o u 1 d stand in his place today in the cl dJ ;:~ h:~ a n d s r.\ y I·. h ~~ c o n s i. d e r' a t i. o n s the member for Menihek and myself hr.\tJ(~ rr'l-i .!;~~d on l:h is .i.SSIJe ar •e No. S5 R2992

qui. t e val i. d . I n the .L n t e r e s t of fa] r play and in the interest of equal treatment of i:lll indLv i.dual members of the House, which is what we are talking about, Mr. Chairman, with the Bill in front of us. In second r·ead .ing, "i.F metnber•s I.Mi .l.l recall, we had wide ranging debate on a 1..1Jholt~ st~r:i .es of issllt-:'5 concern]ng salary levels and p r· i. v i.l. r'! g c,~ s of 1 •. e ad~~ r· s o F t. h C::! OppositJon, or leaders of the gov!'·r·nm~Hli:: party, I.IJdgC:' ~;r:al.ns <"Hlll r·c,!nUmE :!ralions for· Cabi.ned: Mi .r l'i .si ·~::'r'S IH'r~;u~; l:>,"ckb~)nchP1 '5.

We hcld a very wide ranging d i. s c 11 !; ~; ion • a~; I•H:~ s h n 11l rl 11 n d ,,, r· l·i·w auspices of a bill LlJh:ich is p r· C:' s e n I~ o d L o e ~; I~ C\ b l. i s h ;_11'1 l n l·. C'! r· n c·l 1 Fconomy Commission which w]ll deal F 1 J r 1:~ h C:' r· IM ·i. i·~ h I~ he fll d n y i. s s 11 t' s member·s ra·ised ·in th~::~ debate on t.hi.s bi.ll.

Whi'\t thi.~; bi .ll i.s doing, -L~; t~stablishing a pc->.rmanent commission which will glue ongo ing consideration to the kinds of important issues hon. members addressed in the second reading which range from everythi.ng From salary levels for leaders of parties i.n this House, issues i:lS to whether it is a question of propriety for lee1ders oF parties to accept outside remuneration from the legislative process its eJ f. and questions to do with UH:~ a b i.

J. i. i·. y of M HAs 1: o do l· h C:' i r· job etnd to represent properly the ini:.Prosi: of l:hei.r· consl:i .i::llr.:!ni ~:;, givc,!n the sa] ary levels IAJh.ich mighl : be del :ernt :i.nf)d ·in cHl a1"bi tr·dry manner by lhe gout~rnment of U18 day. L'll c,~ d l. s o o 1 1 r s 0 }1; e s . M r . C h c'l i. r·m iHl , and T beJ.·ieve members of the I . i. b E:' r ii 1 P a r 1~: y ,~ 1. s o r.liJ d r· l:' s ~; E.' d -1- he :issue of amtmities. if you tAdll, in the way of office space and L2993 June 14, 1988 Vol XL secretarial support and the research capacity of any .caucus in this House .

All these · questions are very important questions. What I understand to be the pr·ocess .in front of us i.s d Bill government has introduced, in part as R resuJt of continuous representation made by the member for· M c~ n 'i. h (~ k o IH~ r the t. h r t:! e y e 1:1 r· s that he has been here, in cor-respondence,, ,.ri .th i·.hr~ Pr~'!ITI.i.C:!r. a BtJ.l to establish an Internal Fconomy Comnli.ssi .on :i.n t~hE:' .. i.nl-: .erest of establish]ng fair play and a r' l:' c: o g n i.

L i on I. h a l: all me rn b C:H ' s of lhe House of Assembly are equal c-111 d l: h ;., t l". h P r·,.~ .:~ r f:~ s ornE:~ rn i. n J rn u m guidelines that need to be ~~ !; i ·.a b J. .i s h c,, d i. o go lJ ~~ r n the a c i:. :i. on s and privileges of caucuses in the L t' •:;! i s 1 o:1 1': 11 r· P. . Mr. Sp,~al<~::'r, position arnE:'ndrnt~ nt s IAJOUld 1 ike and I!Jh .i. C h I•Je, 1 t.h:i.nk, ar·e .in a to introduce two to l".hi.s bi.ll, which I to do at this point, will address the two concerns I·have been speaking to. The first, moved by the member for St.

John's Fi%1: i:tnd secondE:~d by the member for Menihek, that a

Section ('I·) bE:~ added to B'i.ll. 16 after Section (3) to read - and I IAJ:i.l.l. g:i.lJE:~ thi .s to the Table, but for han. members who might want to l<now I!Jhdi: bJe drl':~ di .scussi.ng her·e­ Section (4) be added after

Section ( 3) i.o r·~~c::td, quote: "1)1.1. Mi .l'l11Lns of the Tni:E:'r 'ndl. Economy Commission shal.l bE:' a rrkl i. 1 ~ (! t' 0 f f1 I J b 1. i. C: r P. C 0 r ri , c'\rl d t h 0 S P MJnutes which are curren ·t. and in c,~ f f P c l ~ :; h c:-1 l. 1. b f:~ i·. <'1 b l. e d b y a n 1 e 111 be r _ of the Internal Economy Cornrnis sion de~;iyni :'li:ed for· l:hi:lt l·.,~sk, no lid:er than two wePks after a nt~IAJ ses sion of l.:he llo11sc,~ of A ~;s c,'rnbly commences. 11 No. 55 R2993

Mr. Cht:tlrmnn 1 thi.:; is th~~ amendment which addresses our conct:~rn +:hat IJ.Jt~ I as i.:IAJO hon. ruembers, indiv:lduaJ members of the H o 11 s 1::~ ;:, nd co l.l. 1.:' c i: ;, v c~ 1. y r·c-:!prE-!r.entjng a th :ird group .in this llous c, "'•"~Y bt:~ u nr\IAJiH '~~ of dtH: i ~;ion!; made by the Internal Fconomy Cormniss'ion IAth .i. ch •H'P dE:>s:i .ym:~d l:o govern our actions as individual rn t' m b P r s o 'f UH,~ H o 1 1 s E-) • c~ q 1 1 •'11 L o ci1 J. ot:her· mE:~mbers, including the , IIICcHn bE:~ r· For Po r· t de C r· .:~ v c~ , and 1 i. n some medsur·e, equal to other cducus~.:~s in tho HousE:~.

Lhe official Opposition and the g o v e r· n me n t. i. n t h e H o u s e , o b v i o u s 1 y not in numbers, but certainly in ter·rns of the r'E:'Sponsibili.ties tJJe bring to this House day-to-day. MR. EFFORD : A point of order, Mr . Chairman . MR. CllfH RMnN: The hon . the member For Port de Gr·ave, a poi.nt of order . MR. FFFOfW : I lAJO u 1 d Jjke to ina I< e it clear to 1:. h 1,~ Ill e 111 b e r· f o r· S L . :J o h n ' s F a :; I' o 11 d par· t i c u J a r· p o :i n t of or d e r , that he is noL c:'({Udl. Lo IJH :~ tne:'rnb~H' for Port: d~~ Crclve because the rnernber For Pori·. ri<'!

Gr·atH:~ IAJOIIld nol: do against: thE:~ peop1e of this Provi .nc:e -HH,' i·.hi .ngs t:h;:,l·. the~ member for St. John's Fast and his collt~;:,gue hc.we been doi.ng i.n i:h~:~ pa~t. MR. CHAIRMAN : To l: h e p o i. n l: o f o r d e r· , t h e r· e i. s no point of order. The han. the member for St. John's East. MR. LONG : There was not a point of order. I t h a n k y o u , M r . C h a i. r· m c.~ 11 • f o r y o u r· very distinguished ruling from the C h a i. r· i. n t h a t c a s e:~ . I llli:l s t a k ~HI 1.2994- June 141 1988 Vol XL r.~bac:k by point of nrenrbE:~r for any case, lfl)l br·pa th.

UH:1 b t' i. ll i. a n c E~ order raised. Pori : dt~ GrclUP 'l t allowed me l Lh·i .nk

c) ear. i:he dlnendrnc,'nl : I have read it of the by the but, :Ln to catch ·i. s qui +.E' into the r· t~ co r·d . and the F :; s c-:~ n 1: i.d ll y , Government lA) fl i:l t l 1'-. i S ·­ HOUSe Leader IAri .ll. dpprc,~ci •~1{·.e:' Lhe i.s s11e I•JE:' ar·e r·aising here, that it rE:~ally makes n o ~; ('! n s <:• I: o e s i'. e1 b l i s h a n I n 1:: e r· n a 1 Economy Commission and to not 1·.-..:-1ble lH~Fore l.he House t:he decisions made by that Corruni . s s Lon. Obvi.ousJ.y, the House Leader· will understand MR. J. CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Chairman . r'IR. Clln I: RMAN: Order, please!

A point of HH~ rn b n r· for· S 1. r"' fC J . CART F R : order, the han . the .J o h n ' s No r· t h . I ·bE:~lieve that this amendment 1s to ·1 ;~ ll y o 11 1: o 1- o nl E! r' b P c au s e i. t runs contrary to the var·ious ~;uburi.ss-Lnns nri'lrh~ ~!·H·li .er· l:oclay, i.n other words, that the del.i.be:'r'dl:i .ons of a co1nrnittc>.~ should and do remain secret, aJthough d commtlLc~:~ rlldY certai.nly publish its decisions. But the method by IAJhi.ch t:hE:'Y arr·i.ved at those decisions are private and n o l: e:> v C:' n n l~ c e s s a r i. 1 y t h E~ p r· o p e r t y of the whole House.

Because, to as sum e o the rtAJ is e i. s l: o s u g g e s t every single bit of deliberation s h o 1 J l d take p 1 acE:~ in pub l i c or· in a fish bowl, and this would, I th i.nk, hobble Par·l.iament or· any of its committees. The as Internal c,~nvi.saged No . ':'> 5 Economy Commission, i.n i:hi s bi.ll, i.s R2994

quite clearly e~ Committee of the House, and the deliberations of a Committee of the House, evf'n d Statutory Committee of the House, are and should be private. MR. FENWICK: To the point of order . MR . CHAIRMAN: To that point of order, the hon . the member for Menihek. MR . FENWICK : If I understand correctly, the mE ~Inber· for· St- ..

John 1 s Nor· H1 -.ind :.i.cates h:is point of or ·der is Li'lclt. thf:~ colnHd.U :c·H:~ s of +:hi.s llow; :~ do not have thP r:i ght : t·o r'E:'port to Uw I·IOIISe, bco~Ci'IIISl-:~ 1-.hr'li ·: -i, ~; 1-)Xi-l Ci.l y what, as I understand it, the cl rn e n d In t~ 1'1 l: ~; d i. d , rHH 'I c '1. t' iH' l y , I h .-1 L is fooLish. The Committees in i: h i . s : I 0 II s f:' h i'\l)t~ 0 nl y () 1'1 Co~ p 1 Fl Cl"! I. 0 r·eport, i:l.nd that is to the House ii-.S!:~lf , . dco~sp .i lt' i:hi .ngs [ fll •:~y hdVP done from time to time. MR. J. CARTfR : Mr . Chcd.r·man . MR.

CHAIRMAN : Further to that the hon. member North. point of f Ot ' St. order, John 1 s MR. J. CARTER : Mr. Chair·man, the decisions of a Committee of the House dre th e property of this House, obviously. This is the only person or only organization that the Comrni .t:i ·:ee ci:l.n rf-)port: l·o. Nevertheless. the delibera tion s l.eddi .ng up to l-_h.;li·: df:~cisio11, r think. etre and should be pdval .e MR . CIHH Rr..,rl~l : To ·that po-.int. of order, t-he r·E· no p o i. n l·. o f o r d P. r , 11 r r :

d) f f e rEHl t e of opJ n·ion between hon. member·s. l. ,. ·' d t IAI O l.2995 June 14, 1988 Vol XL r~R . LONC : Mr. Chairman, not to the . point of or dE! r· , 1 j us t want to fin i. s h rn y speech. MR. CHAIRMAN : The hon . the member for St . John 1 s East. MR . LONG : Thank you, Mr. Chairman . Just by way of conclusion, I am glad l:ht~ HOIJSP.

Lt~ddtH' i.s i.n his seat because the amendment, the II o 1.1 s l~ 1. c,~ ''' d f:' r· 1~Ji 11. r· e c d 11. , -L s an issue that we haue raised c o n c c~ r n i n g l·. he 1-. db l i. n g of r· e p o r· t s of the Commission. which we bl:'l .:i.E•tJC:' i.n pt•.i .nci .pl .c,~ i.s :;on1ei :h i.ng we would want the Commission to clo .

Bul . 1 '''oulrl .li.!<e +·.o Si'I.Y t·:o the House L.eader that our essential p1Jrpost :' in bri ngi. ny Fonuard this amendment is because we are conc(:H 'ned l:hat we, as two individual members. and as a col.loci:i .tJe gro1Jp r·t~prese:~nt i.ng a third party in this House, may not be giuen representation on this Commission and so we may not have any access t.o l:he del.i .bc-?.rat.ions or the decisions which are to govern our Cl.ct ·i.ons.

So I would say to the House Leader that I would dppeal to his sense of decency and fair play, which he dt~mons t:rai :os on a continuous basis in bringing forward the gotHH'nrnco~nl ~ 1 s busi.n~:~ss, clnd concede that the amendments we are br· ·ing ·i.ng For·l~ldr'd arr>. not. only proper, but make sense . We have I".I!IO 1une nd rntHll ·. s . The second amendment, hr'l.u n yei: 1-.o i.nl-.roduce, for representation r·t~cogn i.zed gr·oup~; i.n tht~ No . 55 IJJhi C h LJJe IAJ.i , 1. l. C i:1 11 of all liOIJ S 0. R2995

MR. SIMMS: I present that one first and make this argument about the other one? MR. FENWICK: As we understand the rules, we can onJ.y g i.IJe on1::1 at. a t:i.me. MR. I.ONG : Mr· . Chairman, the amendment wh'l c h i. S i. rl f r 0 11 1~ 0 j- t I :; i. S q l.l 'i.1: t~ C l. e i-\ t' that - MR . STMM:O: o k a y . u~ l~ u s tJ o i: e o n t h i. s o n e:1 a n c:l get that out of the way. MR. LONG : -- n~ports will be tabled.

I would hope that the Gover·nmt~nt House Leader will see what . we are doing will strengthen the Internal f.conomy Commission so when the Government House Leader, whether he comes back or not, but members of hi.s par·ty, find themselves Ln a position different from the one they now occupy, they will appreciate the work the members of I:. he NDP Par· ty, d s members 1 i. k e l:o say , the p r· e sent l hi r d c au c us , t h J. r· c:l 9 r· o 1.1 p i. n l: hi. s H o 1 J s e , h r.w f:~ done for all time in strengthening thi .s Comrrri.ssi on, so that i.l- yotl ever· EH1d up be:dng the thir·d party o r· U1 E:' l..i. b E:' r· a J.

P d r· t: y , y o t 1 u.Ji . 1 1 r·c:'!cogtdze the importance of having a 11. g r· o 1 1 p s r· e p t' e s e n t e d o n Uw Cornndssjon w~dch will govern the ac:Lion:; of i.nrl.itJ.i.duaJ. member:; and taucuses in this House. Thank you, Mr·. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon . the President of the Council. MR. SIMMS: I wo u 1 d 1 i. k e brief words. Leader of the have a couple to have just a few I understand the Oppos 'l t. i.on wants l~o of words too , j us t 1_2996 June llJ., 1988 Vol XI. l:o 1.1.1hclt the hon. member has sa i.d.

It seems to me to be a bit strange t:o be:~ p11I:U.ng forth t·.he argument that the reason we are making this nrnc;!ndrnenl-. th.:~t. rni.nui:es of the Internal Economy Commission - God knot,.J:;, i:htH'r~ ·is noi:hi.ng i.n it anyway .... should be made public l:wc•'liJS~~ '~'''~ rnr.1y not: h,'l.tJe ~l mHrnber on the Internal Economy Commission. ThE:~i r other amendment they have c01ninl:J b~::!hind i:; •'ln r:~mendnH,~nt to somehow give them representation on l:hE! Tnl ·.e rnal Economy Commission. I do not know why 1: h (':' y d i. d no t p t' e s e n t t h a t dmendment fi.r·st. MR. FENWICK: Pick one. MR.

SIMMS: WE! 11 , [ p r· !~ f e r to d e a 1 lJJ 1 t h t h e other one. In fact, I 'am iHlXi.ousl.y IJJaii'. :i.ng for· the hon. member to put it forward. I have some thoughts on i.l- ., some vLews on it, you might to be pleased to k 1101ll. ()nyllli'ly, Mr·. Cl'lt'li .rmr.ln, with r·espect to this particular amendment, we '"J ·i. l l. n o t. b e s 1 1 p p o r· t i. n g t h e amendment.

It is so incidential .:~nrl nonsr)nsicnl. i.l: worth wasting the HcJIIso dPbal:i.ny i.t:, are concerned. i.s not : euc->.n time of the a !> f r.l r r.l s 1.1.1e The other thing is ·- I apologize dljd .in for· 1ny vo'i.ce ··the hon. member says they do not have the uppori"tlni .ty lo partici.pate on the Commission. That is not so. In frlc1., u.Jht:!re i:he 1eglslcttlon prouides for an additional member rrom t-he Opposition side, I understand that the Leader of the 0 p p o s i.

I~ i. o n had , .L n fa c t , o f f e r e d to alternate representation on the Commission with a member of his party and a member of the NDP, one No . sr, R2996

year - one year. That opportunity E:~xisl:s for· mernber·s 1-.o si.t on .i.t:. Because they have this silly not:i.on i:hal somehow th~:1y ar·~o1 t:ht~ government, or they are the Opposi.ti.on, or whal:ever, they should get all kinds of recogn.i .ti .on. fhey hr:~ue this si ll.y noti.on they have been recognized as a third p a r t y . T h e o n l. y t h .i n g t h a t h a s been recognized in this House by t h e S p e a k e r h a s b t:' e n 1: h e r· L g h t. o f the members opposite to respond to M i ni.stt~r:i.al Str :lt:PrnE:~nt· .s, not.hing else. SOMf HON. MfMRFRS: Oh, oh! MfL ~HMr~S : Oh, j:, that so?

MR. lONG: Rc ~r.ld tiT< :~ rul. ·i ny! When ~~~·~., ll·w 1 a :, t t i Tile y o u r· E:~ ad t he r· u 1 i n g ? MR. SIMMS : Mr ·. Chairman, wjth r·espect to Hds p a r t. i c 1 1l a 7' a rn c:~ n d 111 P nl· : , [ j 1 ~ s t ~; e r' lJ t' notiCE:' that IJJE:~ will not be supporti.ng i.t. We do not thi.nk i.l ·: r·equires a lot of debate. It is jtJst uJasLing the tirne of t:ht ~ llouse so as soon as you are ready to put the question, we are ready to vote . MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker. MR. CHAIRMAN : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition . MR. WE I..LS : Mr . Chairman, I have to address, f

l) r r.l f P.IJJ rn i n IJ t E:~ s I ~; Q lflr:' \) r I he commE:!nts made by the hon. t. he memb<:~r for· St.. John's f, ,,~; I (Mr·. Long). They are clE:!etrly unfc~ir "' n d , T t: h i. n I< , 1". h e y r.l r· (;' c: .l t>H' I y int.emperat.P.. 1_2997 Jurw 14, 1.988 Vol. XL When this suggestion was made, thai : t:her•e should be a re.vi.sion to the Internal Economy Commission, 11Jt:~ Agret:~d. We put fortJJar·d a recommendation which would have the Opposi .t::i.on House Leader as one of the members and a member from each of i:he backbenchers. The government did not see fit to do 1: hat. .

They s a i. d t-. hey wo u 1 d a g r e e with the Opposition House Leader being on Lt. and one member from the Opposition side of the House, and one m<-?.lllb<:H' fr·orn t:he gov e r· nme nt side of the House, other than the mi.nisl:et·s thi:ll:. 111er·e un i.t. T.t- _ Wcl.S also suggested that we might c:ons:i.dE!r al.l"erna'l:i.ng. Well, that did not seem to me to be unfair .

I have never, ever, thought that \"I,Jo <·) 411 ~~ l. s ~~ lJ t:' n I" e t~ n , but-. d :; the 1J are somewhat different than the 7'1)'; -1. of 11s, T. t.•J~s pr·epdr(:'d to alternate and give them a fair· dl cHl C I~ . [ <'\ l. ~i U S 119 g eSt e d 1". h Cl i·. l!lE:~ would dE:~terrnine who sat on it 1-oi.r•sl . by tJw 1-l:i.p of r.l coin, IAthi.ch i·.h~.:~ hon. lnt~rnber· doE:~:; nol:: l.i .ke. MR. LONG: That is not fair . MR. WELLS: Which the hon . member does not like. He thinks it is unfair so I will happily withdraw it and we will decide it by vote instead. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

LONG: r 1·: i. $ no L l:. he IAJa y to do our business. MR. WFL LS : ~~e 1~J.i .ll. deci .ciH ).1-_ by lJOI:E:1 i.nsh ~d d . MR. SIMMS : You have lost your opportunity now . MR. Wf.LLS : . No. '3G 1~ 7.9 97

That is alright. If he does not like i.t and he thinks it :ls ridiculous, I will not foist it on h lm. lie does not hav.,~ l·:o participate in j t so we wj 11 IJ.Jithdr~w it and 111e IJJ.i.ll dec:i.de it by vote of the majority members on i·.hl-:1 Opposi.U.on sidt:1 of 1:h(~ House. :r have no probh~m wj t.h that. J want lo remind 1. hE:1 hon. mc-?.mber dS l·. () lilh·~ t he Sdid, 1-h ;., L ,d,J. rn~'mber·s of th:i f, House, :in t hE:!l r· s h~ 1: u !; '" n d r J g h 1-s ~ ~; rn E:~ m b E:' r s , •H' l-:~ Pqua], and that is exactly right .

All 111nrnbr.H'S in 1-.hc:!'i.r· sl ·:al:tls •.Hld dghts ~re equal and two has never· oquc\lJ.t-:'cl sevent(~E:Hl ·i.n · dny mathematics I know, never, ever, e q u a 1. l E~ d s t~ v e n t e C:Hl , b u t l: fH:~ problem is they insist they have to be equal to the Official Opposi tl on. If and when they ever becornl~ the Official Opposition, I will have no right, no problem, according to them that status, but until then, when they are talking about rlghts as mernber·s, they have equal right with each other.

Han. mernber·s rnigh1 : be inttn·es ted in knowing, for example, that the NDP has rnore s l:aff mernb:~rs that the Officia] Opposition. Despite o u r· r E:1 s p o n s i. b i. 1 j_ 1. y 1-. o b ~~ 1.: h f:1 Official Oppos i bon, to shad ow the gotJernnllHll·:, l:ht:~Y haLJf.! rnor·e sb~ff on a per· c:ap:i. ta bas:i s than we do, C:Hld UJ.'\t : i.s F11ndatnenl:c'llly wr·onq. T hope the member·s of the Internal F::conorny Cotnrn'i.ssion are l i.s Leni.ng. :r understand there is a meeting scheduh1d For· t:hi.s Friday t:o deal. 1.1.li t h o u r· r e q u e s t s . I h o p e t h e y d f~ '~' 1. 1.1.1 i.

H1 i. t: f r.d. r·l. y a n d b c>. a r 1·: h a i': Jn mJnd, and bear in mind the respons'i.bili~y of ~he Official. Opposition. Yet, the members of the NDP have, when you compare them wi 'th us in numbers, they have the equlval.,~nt of Clbout seventeen on the staff and we have fifteen, despite our responslbil:i.ty and L2998 June 14-, 1988 Vol XL obligation as Official Oppos:i.ti.on. That i.s fundamentally wrong, and I have no doubt the Tnt.er·nal F.:conorny Couuni .ssion i.s about to correct that injustice U1i .s corning Fri.ddy when, T understand, they are going to meet. To the hon. member for St.

John 1 s Fas I·, T SdY l:o hint, 111e iH'e pr·epared to be fair for tht:1 brief p 0 r• 'i, 0 d 1.1.1 ~) cH' 1~ g () i 1'1 g 1-. 0 b e 0 11 1-. h i. S side of the House. We will be rr :\i .r· l•dl.h l.h!:~ NDP bui I~Jf:1 do not . like the derisive comments when we o F Fe r· 1: o l:H:~ fa i r a n d L r· c.:. a t p e o p l e on a fair basis. I offered that d (:~ c j_ ~ i. 0 n t 0 r l. i p d c () i. n t () b e fair. I did not want to call it .~ r11l s "'y , 1 W '~ ll. , l.IIG have the biggest number, we will go first, e1nd yott can go second. 1 I gave you a fajr chance.

You do not like i.t and you want to deride the fairness and the sense of fairness 1.1.1Lth whi.ch t.he suggestion was made, that is fine. We will l•li . thdr·aw it and we will decide it on the basis of a vote of the rnaj ori ty oF memb(~rs on this s .ide of the House. SOMF.: liON. MF.MBERS: Hear, hear! MR. F F.NWICK: Mr· . C h '" i. r·ntr.m . riiR . CIIAJRMAN : ThE:' hon. the member for Menihek . MR. FENWICK: Thank yc)IJ LJery Htuch, Mr. Chc~.innan . r: l·hink Uldl: i".hE:~ l.eader· of the official Opposition has the wrong c o n c e p t t: h a t·. IJJ e a r e rl e a l. oi. n g l.ld . t h here.

He keeps on repeating the tJJor·d 1 fa i.rness 1 • He -i.s saying that it is not fair that two mernber·s should have the same privileges as fifteen and so on. W<-?.11, 1.1.1E:~ do not. The questlon is No. 55 R2998

not r.:d .rnw;s. Ft:\irnf.'s: ; ha :; nothing to do wjth :it . What jt. has to do wjth is the r ul. f.~ s o f t: h i. s H o u s e s h o 11 l d b ~~ available for all member·s of this House l:o kno1~1 ''Jhal- . t:hc~y r.lre.

Th!:~ rules that govern a lot of the v e r· y "i. rn p o r t a n t 1: h i. n g s , s u c h a s !: he amount of staff and the r·e gulat. ions in terms oF tran spor tat ion and a ll the rest of thls , should be a v ail.abl~ to my sel f, should be av ailab le to the me mb er· for For t1_.ne - Her mi. t·.age, to the member for Windsor - Buchans, a n d a 1 l. t h e r· c-:"! s 1:: o f u s , o n 1· h e same basis as it is available to the member·s i.n the P.C. cctucus. The Fact oF the ntai:tPr 'i.s, i.l~ i ~; not.

The decisions of the 1: n t-. t~ r n N.l F. c o no rn y Co rnrrd s s :i. on r· i. 9 h t now arc~ prJviJeged lnformabon, and i:hal ~ :i.nfor·m,~l :ion i:; nol : mi:ld~ ~ avcd J abJ e to any ruE:'TIIber of Lhe H ()II s e . qui . h~ r r· iHll< l IJ • 0 Uw r• L h ·Hl those who have access · to t-h~' i. rnJ i lJ i. d 11 ct l. :; u n L h ct i·. Co HI I'll i. ~; s ."i. on . If you look d 1·.: OIH' dntc-~ndrne:~ni:, +-.h'" L is a]] the amendment addresses .. · W h rl. i·: :i. S <; cl y S q I I i. i: 0. C l.

I;! •H' J. y i S i: h d i: whe:!n the House starts to sit each yedr, t:hf:~ Conuni .ssion IA.I'.i .ll l:abl.c ,~ the rulings it has made so we will have a chance to know what th e rules are in this particular L e g i s 1 a t. u r· e . I do not ·think that that is a quest-ion of fairness. That: ·i. s a question of access to knot.uledge and to r•egu lations thdt d t'O available. So it is a comp1etely different matter hero. If we want to get into the quc.;!s l·.ion of t'~.-:1pt'f>.~>c-:~ntat·i.on on oi 1., I Jook at it as two ar·ms. Quite Fr·<lnk1y, I do nol : Ci:H'c,~ IAJhi.ch amendment you ndopt.

If you etdopt this on c~ , T .un no 1: .:1 s d r~ :; p :~ r· d h~ L2999 Jum~ lll, 1988 Vol XL ,~boui .

Lh1,, oi:h1)r ' .une:~ndrnf:Hlf:. 8u l.: J.f you do not adopt this one, if you kP.,::p l·he :i.nror·rnai:i.on SE:1ct'e:~t. !:hen I ask you one thing: If you adopt a r· ~o~ s o J.u L i. o n 1.u U : h i. n t: h e T n t e r n a l Economy Commission that says , for E:1Xdtnpl c:', t:hat : only cer·tain ki.nds of travel are acceptable to the d i. s i.:r- .i. c t a n d b a c k , i. f y o u ad o p t a resolution on that, a particular r· e g ul. a l: i. o n , a n d y o u n e v C.;! r· t. e 11 anybody about that other than the p e o p l. (~ l!ri. t h t n t h c.;! P .

C . c a 1 J c u s a n d , if there is a Liberal member on i.t, the;! 1.. iber'al caucus, then how do we know that that regulation is chc~ny E:'d? MR. Sl:I'-1MS : Ask the Speaker . MR. FENWICK: Bul: l:h~J po:i .nl- . of H w rnatt-.er is the Spe:1aker wi l 1 not release the ·i n f o i" nt d I. ion . ~)o I•Jhc-\i·. ( i:\Trl Sr~y ·i.ng l-.o IJOLI i.s i .t is not a question of fairness . It :i.~.; d qll! c~ sL ·i.on oi- ~CCJo'S S l:o r·ules and l<nowi ng the rules and knowing Uw r·a L iun;~JH bd1 "i.nd Uwm .

Thl-:"! only way to do that, other than J·lt:wr ~ a rrH:HIIbiH' guAt'ani :eed l::o bP. on it on a continuing basis, is to haue these particular pieces MR. DINN : So all fifty-two members should be on i. t. MR . FENWICK: No, I d i.d not ~; ay all fi.fty-tl.uo be on it. As long as a r·epre:; t' n t:a U . ve of each caucus is on it, it does not make a d 'i. f f c,1 r (Hl c t1 . I want to read into the record a coupJ.e of l".hC:~ pr'ac t-.:i.ces MR. SIMMS: (Inaudible) the amendment? No . S ~ R2999

MR. FENWICK: The amendment is introduced. MR. SIMMS: A r· e you go .in g to u o t e on i. t? MR. FENWTCK: No, no! We are going to speak on i.t For t.he r<:~st of 1-he day, e1nrl then :in a couple of days, maybe we rn .i. g h t u o t: e o n :i. t b y i: h t:Hl . MR. ~nMr~s: Oh, you are going to tAla 5 te Lh ·i.s. thE~ 1.-.:i.tne:~ of l:ht:~ liottSt:~ on MR. FFNWTCK: I think it poi.nt-.. Tl: IAtheHtE"r -· MR. RAIRD: is a very important i s r.1 q t.t '"~ s t ·i. on oF lie IAJi.lJ. rlOi: be~~ hE=!r'e -i.n d COI.Iple or days. MR. FE'NWICK: I just realized something.

If they giue me the flick for a day, they can get i.t. thr·ough. I just. had this awesome thought that somewhere along the li.ne the Committee on Privileges may decide that rny presence is desired somewher·e else for a day or two tAl h iJ. e Hli 5 H o u s c-:~ s -i_i~ s a n d i:\ l. 1 l~ h i. !) stuff wj 11 go through tAJhen I am not. ht:H'E:~. ()nybJny, just gt~H·.i.ng br~c:k i:o i.i:, l'-1r'. Chair·man. J am reading from, T i:hi.nk i.i-. i.s cnlled, Canadian Legislatures.

On i.t: i.l: hns"' secUon :in which it. compares Ute t1ldY ·.i.n t~Jhi.ch l.coH!f·i.sl.aLtJt'O!; oper'r:=t.I·H thr·oughout Canada and on a federal level. Table 18 is called Financial Management of the Legislature. [f you look at: .it, om~ by one, you will get to see the different ways -L n w h i. c h e a c h '-e g i. s l. a t u r· e o p e r· a 1: e s in this country. L3000 June liJ., 1988 Vol XL The House of Commons, for example: In the House of Commons proceedings for a proceeding session are tabled in the House tAli. t: hi. n h~ n d.~ y s of t. he s tart of each session. This is the House of Commons.

Thi.s is the model for all of us. Within ten days of the :;l·:arl". oF l:he:~ S(o~s:don, t.hco~Y table all of the proceedings of that Co rnrwi. t L l-:' f:~ For t-h ~~ pre vi. o u s y ear· . That st~ems to me, if the House of COtliiiiOI'l') Co:Hl tlllt up t~ri.Lh the exposure of their regulations, i h.-1 I t)tr~, in 1-h is l·lousP., sho11l.d not. be partJcularly worried about it. Prince Edwar·d Island: I. et us have .-1 l o o I< a i · .i. L . T h t~ Co rnrn i l~ t:E:~ e has authority to report to House. (

D) n o I p 11 b J. i. s h ~~ d o r· cl v a i 1 a b 1 t~ to t h e public. So in Prince Edward [sland is ,:;J, si.t.ual1.on v.1here they haue the same restrictions as we hauE~, but to~J:~ hiwe never really held Prince Edward Island up to be the l oi. g h t. of pro g t' e s s .i. t perhaps should be. Nova Scotia: Noua Scotia appr·oaches .i.t. by having a member from the Opposition caucus and a tnPntl:lE!r rr'Ofll r·ecogn i.zed par·ty caucuses. This is on page 122 of it-..

Thi.s mc-~ans, of coursE:~, al.l members of all the individual c a 11 c u :; e s d o h a IH:~ a v a 'i. 1 a b 1 r~ to t h e m this particular information, and un i hdi: bdsi.s, thE~Y krw•AJ what the rulings are because they can be tl i ~; Lr· ·i b 11 Led and so on . NPIA.I Rrunswick: The Board of 111 i t•r·n.-11. fc:onotny t'Hporl.::; ·ldH:~ House aflPr Aach meeting and does not ;·t•pt•r·i to~tiH~n i:hc-:~ HoiJS(:~ .i.s not siLLJng.

I mJght note, by the t;.JdY, i h.'lt-. !:he NetAJ flr·unsv.J i.ck 1Pgislature does not haue many pr·ubl PlfiS .~i: al.J. rJOIA.I, of COUt'SE:~, because if they have r· E' p r cc. s E~ n 1·.: i:l 1: i v e s r-r· o rn one caucus , they have representatives from all No. ~)S R3000

caucuses a.t this point. Q u 1:1 be c : A 11. dec i s i. on s o f 1: h ~) flo <H' rl of Jnt.erna.l Economy are tabled in 1-. he HotJ s e, i:Hlo l: her 1:1 x arnp 1. e . 0 n 1: r'-\ r i. o : (l S pea k e r· i. !> a rn t~ m be r· , a Chairman, t: hr·ee minis tE:1rs and one prtvr'-\

h) mt1mber fr·om o.~c:h parf ... y. So, again, they have access to the r e p o r· i: s of '.i. 1-. • (l n d , (

d) s d y ~; , published periodically and i:\Vcti labl.e to t.he publ. i.e l.o~Ji. th.i.n forty-eight hours of a meeting . So, in the province of Ontario, it is also available . Manitoba: It becomes public when tabled in t.he House. Ag~in, another province that has no problem publishing it. SaskatdletAJan, I hi:ll.e t·.o report, does not have public publishing a n d i. 1·: d o E-) s n o l. h "' v e representation from all caucuses wi thi.n f'.h(:1 HotJSI:1. So, Saskatchewan, Prince Edward T s l. a n d , "' n c:l o 11 r· s f.1 l. tH' !; , unfortunate] y, are '.in a backward p o s i. 1.: ;_on . MR.

I.ONI. : They hope Sds ki:ll :c:h(-:!IAJ i:\11 . reviE:1LI.J. MR. FF:NWTCK : to change it in 11·. i.s N.ll unrlc,1t' My caucus colleague tells me that Saskatchewan i.s in the proc~~ss of changing their proceedings. Alberta: (d), Published and available to the public, so it_ 'is available even to the public . Bri tj s h Columbia : They do not know because it has not reported . The Yukon hi:ls a thir·d ·-pi:lri·y l f>.ddHt' on their committee so I would i:\SSIJtne r'-\}J. tnernbers IAIOIIl.d ktlO IAJ. L300J June 14-, 1988 Vol XL The North West Territories noi : hnVt:1 fl•'lr 'l:y govt ~rnment. and no .f·.

Slit'~) Lh~: 1y •lre i:lppli.ca-bl.e . does T am ~io I rJJr· . Chr:ti .rman. IAJhC,Hl you g~t down to it what we have, other l:h~n Hr·.il.i.sh Col.urnb :i.a, whi.ch we ~ do not know, is Prince fdward Island d s I. h e o n l y p t' o tJ ;_ n c e i. n ;;., h i c h a 11 members of the House do not have b\CC(;:~ss lo t:-.ht~ rc-?.por·t ~s of the-?. Board of the Internal Economy Cornmi.ss -ion.

Whe:1n the Government House Leader and the Premier put this forward as a major inno0ation, and a major irnpr'OVI::'!tnenl: over· t;..Jhat. has been there in the past, I think, what t:he:~y should also be doing .is saying honestly there are only one or· ttAIO other· legislatures in the entire country as backward as we dt'e i_n· noL hatJi .ng t:he r~>.cords of · this

part icular commission rWdi .J.a.bl.E:~ , Th.-~t is all OtJt' dntendrnr~nt does . It just demands that the Board of H1(;:~ Tnh ~rn.d .

Fconon1y Cornrnissi.on, at the slart of each session, 1: ~ b l. 1-) !; ~ ·1 l · i t ~; p <H' 1-.i c u l. •'l r o r d e r· s so they are made public and are dtJ,'li .l.a.bl ,,, Lo t-.l'lf.1 rnernbers of !::he House:~ . members of the public, the rrtf.1Ynbl o!t's of l.he ntPdi .N., ~;o on dnd so forth. 1 should sr'-\y, from our perspective, we would be quite tJJi.ll.ing to dr·op this amendment and allow it to not even come to a vo h:~ :i. f the seco nd amend ment that we are propos ing la ter o n, to have i'll.

J. c ~ u c us r' e p r· e sent at i. on on th e pa rt icu lar board , is appro ved, because t.hat would accom plish, at leas t f or the member s of the I egi.s1<~1':ion, 1-.he sam e th i.n g . Although I would st ron gl y suggest i. 1: :i. s a be 1: hH' s y s 1: em t·: o h i.i v e th e informati.on public than it is to h r'-\ t)f:~ ;_ t: p t' i. \) i'l l: 1:' . No . 55 R3001

Those ar·e my comments on it, Mr. Chajrman. It is to me a worthwhile amendment and it is _one which would put us in a better posit ion than we were before anrJ, on that basis, I would suggest thcit all. the members of the House should have a look at it, debate it r:lmong themseJ.ves, and i.f t.ht1Y have some comments, or some cr·il:i.c:i.SIIIS I IJ.Jould noL ndnd Ul<:1111 bejng made to me. We would be glad t. o look <"' '1: 'i. l·., oi. F 1-hoy IJ.Jd n L d subamendment or something like 1~ h a t .

T h 1:1 fa c 1-. :i. ~; IAJ e L h i n k 1: h i ~; is a good amendment and one to Hid k e 1-. h r:1 H o 1.1 s 1:1 u fHo! r· d 1-.c,1 rrJcH' (:1 pr·oper·ly. T IAJ::i]J now sit do1AJn ctnd let othr:'r Jrleinbr:H'!i h·1ke p.-u·l·. i.n debate on U11:1 amr:1ndment. MR. LONG: Mr· . C h a i r'lllr:\1'1 . MR. CHIHRMAN: The hon. the member For St. John1s East. MR. LONG: Mr. Chairman, I would like to add a few further· commenl-.s to what the member for Menihek has said. I think, Mr.

Chairman, the member for Menihek has done a good j~b of presenting exhaustive evidence f r· om o i: h e r· j u r· i s d :i. c: i-. :i. o n s a n d o i: h r:1 r legislatures in the country, beginning 1~J:i.th l:he Hot1St1 of Corumons and tJ..d th reference to the ol:ht'f' provincial lt:H_i!i.!>lal:llr't:1S, i.n wh·.·ich WE:! can see that it is common pr'i:\C l:i ce:1 for· i.rrl:er·nal couun:i.s s 'i.cm~; io do E:1XactJy what th::is amendment ·i!; calli.nq for·, namely l:o c:di·.l·l~::'r' report the proceedings and d e c:i. s .i. o n ~; of 1: h c-:1 c o rnrn i s s i. o n s "1. n the House, to Tab]e reports of t:he co1mni.ssions, -or l~o publish l~hnm and make them publjc.

In any case, t:he samr:1 th:i.nq i.~; L3002 June 14, 1988 Vol XL accomplished. £t is in the interest of open government, which at sometimes thi.s government g'i.ves a stated commitment to, the principle of IAJor·k i.ng t.oiJJards openness and fairness in government, which is obvi.ousl.y becorni.ng rnore clearly a definite priority concern in p u b l i. c o pi. rd on poll s . W h C.;! n p eo p 1 e look at the business of government and see UH:1 kinds of evidence of patronage and se]f-interE!St and S (~ l. !--S l,H' lJ i 1'1 9 p 0 l. :i. 1: :i.

C S b f:1 . i. r1 g p 1 d y e d by governments in whatever j 1 Jr' ·i. ~; d i r: L ion , 1". he p eo p l f:~ of t h is country, as the people of most dt:1moc:r'dl::i.,,1!;, iH'C:1 qtli. h~ concer·ned about thr:1 very process of go tJ ,_, r· n 111 e n 1-. '" ml t h f:1 .i. s s 1.1 e s of open government and good government, iH't:1 in 1-aci:, i.n l~hi.s countr·y, according to opirdon polls, among leddi ng cono~rns on people 1 s minds.

The Premier has, in the pasi~ .• mor·c:1 so l::hr.1n lately, given a v e r y s t ron g per s on a 1 c o mm it me n t to the process of opening up government and projecting what he calls a clean image·. Thf:1 Prerni.er loves to come in on questions of conflict of interest or ot:hE:1r qut-:!sl-.i.ons concerning the integrity of this government or d n y p <H' i: i c u 1 a r q u E:1 s t i. on w i t h respect to specific actions by l·.his gov(:1f·nrnE:1nl.:. The Premier comes in and says that he is C l ~' r:\ f1 1 h r:\ S b (:1 8 J1 C l. t! i::\1'] 1 i. S C 1 e d n and wjll always be clean.

Well, in the interest of d d d r· cc ~; s ·i_ n g a tJ (:H' y s e r i. o 11 s con c e r· n on l~he m:inds of people in this f' r' 0 lJ i l'l C: !:' r'll:>

I) I I t-. h 0 I~) f: h E:' g 0 V tH' 11 nl t'! 1'1 t conducts its business, it would ~,t•:·rn i·.o lfli~!<e basic sense to include in legislation to address i h P u 1.:' r· y b u s i. n c~ s s o f g o v cH' n me n t , namely the bill that is before us, h~vi.si.ons t:o the tni-.ernal Economy No. 55 R3002

J.. Cotnmi.ssion, thai: i.t·. briny MR. SU1MS: Would the hon. member permit an J n t: e r· j G c l:'i . o n ? MR. LON!.: Sur·e. MR . CHAIRMAN: The President of the Council . MR. ~:liMMS: Mr. Chairman, I have done some F u r· t h e r· r· t:1 s o a r c h o n Hd s 1n cl t. lco1 r and, qui.te frankly, I have never SC:'t:1n a copy of the IIILnut.es oF Uw Internal Economy Commission myself, even though I am a member. That is how significant a n d .imp o r· t a n t t. h e y a r e . . T h e y a r· e not really.

Rut I did, just for a matter of lnter·est: ask the Cler·k ~:o give 111e a copy of a recent meeting that 111as held, the last meel.:"i.ng i.n ApriJ.

Ther·e really is nothing in i":he rninut·.t:1S oF any s:i.gni.Fi.c.~nc:a a.l-. aJ J . rlgroe>.cl, Lh.:~i-. l-.ht:1 fol.lo •~J .i. ng rnt:HnbN·s would be eligible for the per dJem payments; r>~greed, th;:lt. l.h ~ lfll,1rnbr,n· c-:!lc,1cted :in t.he by- el ectjon IAJould be pai.d his prorated travel or dJstrJc;t allowance; agreed, that t.he Speakc,1r •~Jould look inl:o hir·"i.ng a Hansard Historian; agreed, that the Dc~piJ t-.y Speaker· be <:\ll.otued i:o hire a secretary fo~ four days whi.J.e his r·egular s~cr·etary i.s on sick leave. I mean, these are pretty significant matters, very, very important matters.

Since his amendment says all minutes of the Internal Economy Commi s sian, all minutes be tabled, I IAJonder would he be ak:i .n 1-o a minor compromise and say 'all dec is ions' of t.he 1nt.ernal Fconorny Commission be tabled? 1_3003 June lll-, 198B Vol XI .

If i":hey •~erE-~ pt'1,1f>i.'lrNI to cons.i.dl-?.r that, then we mi.ght be pr.epared to go Hlony IAJi.t:h l-.ab1i.ng dec:i .sions, because there are other occasions, for· Hxampl.E:1, ~~Jher·~o1 l:ho Leade:1r of the NDP, as an argument, might i.'l p p c,, a r · i. n f r· on t: o F t h C:! 1 n tern a 1 fconomy Commission and make a case for· rnon) s·l·.dff or· rnor·r::~ spacro~ or whatever, and that matter might not l:w deali~ I~Ji.l-h, b1~l : i.l~ woul.d be recorded in the minutes. It is n o 1-. rHc' c c-?. s s d r· y o t' i. rn p o r 1-:rHl t t h d t that be shown in the minutes.

But decisions of the Internal Economy Commission, pedlr~ps, if you are satisfied to accept that kind of 1-.hing, per·haps l.IJe can agree to make the minor amendment to your amendment and agree to vote on it and get on with the business of +:he liotJse, because I am gE:1tting a little concerned. There ar·e d hc-?.11. of a lot more important things here to deal with. MR. LONG: Mr. Ch;,dr·man, [ do not. know. May the party ·leader respond direct] y l:o l:ht-) r·r,1quos 1: by the Houst-) l.eadc·H'? MR. CHAIRMAN : The:1 hon. Hw nH,11nb~-r· for· MenHwk . MR. FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Essentially what the Government HoiJSE:~ l..~1ad~::H' i.s SIJgg(:~sli.ng i.s what we have been looking out for right Fr·onr l:hc~ begi.nni.ng. If dll the decisions that govern the reg u l. a t .i. on s oF t. h i. s H o 1 J s e are in some sort of form which can be pt~bl'i.shec:l 1.11hen t.ht:1 House starts its deliberations each year, I t.h .ink that that i.s perfectly adequate. If they want to keep the rest of Uw minu l:c-?.s s e cr·ei.:, that i. s F-L ne with us. From our perspective, No . r;r> rnoo3

a]] ~e want is to have on the public record the rules ~hich apply to this House so they are not only visible for the fif£y-two members of this House, but for the 570,000 members of this Province. So, if the Government House Leader ~auld care to suggest exactly ~hat tJJor·chng he-?. IAJishc-?.s l:o see changed, ~e ~ill take it under advisement for a Sl-?.COnd Ot' 1:.1JJO c;!l1d IAJE! Wi.ll be glad to go along tJJith ~hat he is say .i.ng. MR. CHIHRMAN : ThE- ) J·ton . the President of the Counc:i.l. MR. SIMMS: Mr· . Chai.rJfld.n, tAJhor·

c) i~h~~ •~rnendrnc,~nL you just 'LctbJed (;ays, "All rninutes of H1 t! T n I.

t) r' n .~ l. F c; on n my CommJssion, 11 blah, blah, blah, ~e arE-:' SIH.39E:'si·.i.ng Uic~i". 1.he L•Jr)t'd 'minutes' be r·epl aced v.Ji th the t.oJor·d 'df:'cisi .ons' •. :~1 l de ci .s:i .I)I1S of the Inter·nal fconorny Commission · be ct rnatl .~<-?.r' of pttbl.i .c r·econ:l .:wd those decisjons be tabled in the House and all tlw r·est of ii-.. MR. CH~IRMAN : The han. the member for Menihek . MR . FENWICK: Mr·. Chairman, I think that that t.~.Jould be acceptable, bul: ·we would like to have one point clarified.

Would that then _rnean that i:he first session next time, when this t.&Jas implemented, thr.~t dl.l decid ons up to that point would b1-?. 1-.abJ.ed SO i-.hai.: l:hlo~Y IAJOI .tl.d, d 1. lee1st, aJ1 be on the public record? MR. Sl:r-1MS : 'M:-inutes' I d :~ C i. S i. () J1 $ j II effect:, tnernber· ~ould IAJh i C h ~~ r· 1:' shall be of l h~~ now read c•tr 't'l :~ni: r1nd. tab] E:~d by a Cornrni. s s i. on desjgnated t.o that task, no J ater i·:hi:ln 1-:wo IAJf~ ~~ k S afhn· a tH~IJJ sess:i.on L3004 June 14, 1988 Uol XL of the House of Assembly, yes . MR. LONG: Yes, okay. MR.

SIMMS : It js no big deal, no problem. MR. FENWICK: Okay. MR. SIMMS : The other difficulty ~ith this, I r--Hn jttsl: adwi .sc;!d by l::he La~ Cl.c-?.r'k, of course, is this amendment is nol~. IAJOt'd<:'cl in l.C:'g;:~J.i.st:i.c l:enns and so on, but they will look after U1 r'l I. , T g 1.1 (! s s . MR. CHAIRMAN: The,~ hon. ihr,~ rrll·)lllbl:~r· For Merd.hek . MR. FFNW fCK: In t:hat case, Mr. Cha ·lrrnan, if the CooJ'''t'ntnnnl. l·lottse l.r::'r.~der· hJould car·e to moue a sub --amendment along i: h n s ,,, l ·i n e s • thE! n I IAJO u 1 d be quite happy to second the sub-dmendment..

We do not. i.nt .E!nd to debate it, in which case we could br· i.11g ii: l .. o a vote r--i .ghi~ atAJa Y. . MR. SIMMS : Mr. Chajrman, then, if I have the Floor, I so rnove t:hat sub-amendment. The Law Clerks k1101.1.J IAlhi:lt '( t'lnl i:alk .ing r.tbOUt, and the Opposition, I believe: und~::n·sland IAJe art~ talking about. decisions. MR. FENWICK : lh ·ink you hr:-lu~) ~riting, according dn you not-.? MR. SIMMS : ~l/011 l.cl y

I) II IAJt' i. f E-~ i.l·: it to the Law Clerk l:o hdue to the i.l.: ·in rul.E!S, down dnci 9lVf:! there. It is no pr·obJ.!:'tll. Hldl: J, :; done . 'Decisions' in place of 'minutes' i:lr'IS:i Cr:-ll.l.y i. !) I•Jha t IJJH are sayi.ng. No. SS R3004

MR. CHAIRMAN : Sha]] the amendment, as amended, carry? On 111ot.i.on, sub -amendrn~nt: carri .ec:l. On motion, amendment as amended Cdrri .f:HI. MR. SIMMS: An Y'~Jd y, •~JF.! done. We:~ drnendrnE:~nt. MR. 1.01\JG: knoi.!J haue I~Jhi.'IJ: 1~)8 carr'.ied hdUt-) thE:~ Mr·. ChaJrrnan, just on i~he main motion, t believe we clra now . MR. CHfiiRMAN: Yes, the hon . the member for St . John • s East .. MR.

LONG : Just uery briefly, I want to say to the Gouernwent House Lc.;oacJer that I' · as one individual member of i:he House of Assewbl.y, am qui.I-:E:' pleased to see the appeal we haUE! madl.;o Lo l::he sense of fai.r pl.r'ly hds been responded to. I c.ppr·~ciat.e the process by t.uh'.ich IAJ E:~ h a v e ;u· r· i. lJ e d d L 1-. hi. s d n d r j ' 1 :; I· !Alard .· to say in good fa i t h t. hat the GOlJtH'nJnPnl: iioust·) l.f:~ddt:H' hHs shot~Jn, ngc:d n, a measurE:! of leaders hip ·:in i..ht~ iiOIISf;!, IJri .th agt'I,H~rnf:~ni-. rt·orn UlP.

Liberal caucus, to do something whi.ch i.!> i.n l:ho i.nl :l:lr~sl : of ;~l.l. n1ernbers of the L egj sJ ature. I am pl:~r~sed 1-.o be r:'\bl.e l:o pat•l·.i.cipdh,~ j n the strengthening of a bit of h'gi.sld.t .ion t:ha.t is uer·y i.tnpcH'h'\nL t.o us. fh;:.nk you, Mr. Chai.rtnan . SOME HON. MEMRERS: Question. Questlon . MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Clause 1 carry? L3005 June 14, 1988 Vol XL MR. FFNWICK : Mr. Chairman. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Cnrril-)d . MR. FENWICK: f'lt' . Chdi .r·r11e~n. MR . CHAIRMAN: rhe hon . i:he rnt:~JflbC;!t' for Meni .hek . MR.

FENWICK: In speaking to the corrmittee stage o n l. h f:1 b i. l J. , t h e r· t~ i. s a n o t. h e r amendment. we have. In the spirit of the co -opersti.on here, we would, in this situation, since we no''' 1.ui .l.l know whc:tt t.he decisions are, much less paranoid about deci.si.ons be.lng made in that commission.

Quite frankly, if the suggestion that the Leader of the Official Opposition has made, that there be dn alternation when there are other recognized caucuses 1.uir.hi.n the HoJJse is enshrined someway in some sort of r· t,' g ul a 1 ... j, on s so 1-. h cd· . tJJt1 c iHl ens u r· e that it 1.1.Jill occur, then on that bdsi .s, T J-.hi.nk, •~Je tAJOuld be willing to see some sort of an drnnndtnE:Hll: ;~lon<J those lines as well. I wonder if the Leader of orr i.e i.;.~l. Oppo!;i.i·.·i .on l•IOIJJ.cl willing to respond to ~;11gge:; l·:i.on. MR. WF.:I .. l.S: Mr. Chairman. MR .

CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Leader of Opposition . MR. WELLS : the be that the 1 do not think an amendment ls necessary for that purpose. I h a u e g i. v en an JJ n de r t a k l n g t h a t I am quite prepared to haue it dlt.ernat.e, and I am 1.uith no No. 55 R3005

di .ffi.cult.y at: all.. MR . FENWICK: Mr·. Cl1aJ rman . MR . CHAIRMAN : The han. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: In that case, Mr.

Chairman, we haue not i.ntroduced the amendment, so we do not haue to withdraw it, but we would l·i.ke to say if the understanding clearly is that euery member of ~he legislature really has access to what is going on i.n t.hdl~ cormnitt-.t:~e LhereforE!, T thj nk, there wj 11 be a lot more c o n f .i. d e n c P i. n t h e k i. n cl o f decis·jons comjng out of it, b f:~ c a u s r~ , q 1 li. 1'. e f r· d n k l y , I h <w t:' b l':! e n p a r a n o i d f o r· t. h e J a s t t h r e e r:tncl d hr'll. f YGr'lr'S.

Ti'. i.!; so rllltch Lhdl'. ~~,.,~ h~uP not bPen able to get any faciJitJes to I~Jor·k 1.1.1i .i:h, c'll .l:hough T SJJggesi:, i.n common tAd t h the Official Opposi.l..i.on, we IAJoul.d J.i.ke rnor·e resour·ces, but t.ue haue not even r·ecei.ued {,~xpl.andLi.ons for •<~hy IAJhi:lt we thought were legitimate r·t:~ques l· s IA~er·e Lur·n(~d down. ( , .. tJ.Ji:'IS that blank wall we were facing t.u~Li ch made us sornc->.t.uhat suspicious of the whole process.

On that basis of that, if the Leader of the Official Opposition is of the opinion that we will fJ ip a coin and determine who the j. n i. t i a 1 person tAli 1.1 be on it , I tJ.Jill be qujte happy to take par·t i. n 1'. h e c o i n f 1. i p pi n g a t. IAJ h a i: e u e r' time he wishes, and suggest that c->.u,~n Lhr,1 Gouer·nrnonl ·. HousE:1 l.eader wi.JJ hold the co ·in and call it, si .nce ht' lrldY bt:~ the~ onl.y rH:~ul:r·;~l, parson we would accept on it. On i:hdi: bd!;·is, IAI!:~ I<JOIJld b(-:~ q11'i.Le l1 r.t p p y t. o s e e the b i 1 J go t. h rough the 1~1a y i 1: ·i. s .

L.3006 June 14, 1988 Vol XL. r_.,R. ~1U1M~: May I haue a word, Mr .. Chairman, on Ulr'li·.? MR. CHAIRMAN: Th(~ hon. the President of the Council.. MR. SIMMS: I want nothing to do with the in+.r:H'naJ. conflicts of the two opposition parties. If they cannot Fl-i.p c1 coin on their own and make their decisions, ·then that is just ~n lndication of their competence. Anyway, I under·~;i:and thai: i.s l:he cornrni .tment that the Leader of the Opposition has given, dnd he will proceed along Lhose lines, eventually, !; o rn r,~ l. i 111 C::' , r 1 ·i p a c o i n , o r· w h a t e u e r . r_.,R. WEI.

I.~): lhey want it (inaudible) . MR. SIMMS: Oh, yes. MR. CHAfRMAN : The han. the Leader of the Opposi.l. ·i.on . MR. WEI. .LS: Flipping is not dastardly and deu-Lo11s anymore? MR. SIMMS : I under·s l:and he has agreed. It is consistent with their posibon on j u s t a b o u t. e u e r• y i:. h i n g , o f c o u r s e , flip-flop, yes.

The other thj ng I IJ.Ji.l.l. say , j ·~ s t to s h otAJ t. he sense of fair play, there was a lot of deba l.e, negot·.i.r:tl.:.i .on, and discussion with the Opposition on I ht" ui I·H,'r <HII~>.ndmeni· . thai·: IAJe just acu~pted, so they too should be 9 i v '' n c:r· "'d i. i: f () r' r d i. r· p 1 .~ y . But., I lAd 11 tell you thJs, I IAJas 1no r· ,,, i n l· C'! r· t:~ !; 1: e d in i·: hE-) second amendment coming forth. I te]] I lw lwn. lflE)Hlbl,~ r· j')t)I~J H1r:~l. T. hdd ·~ No. 55 R3006

plan to intr·oduce . a sub-amendment. to that one as well which would not have been nearly as acceptable to the han. members as they mj ght have thought. tn any event, Mr·. Chairman, now we can get on with carr·yJ!'lg on IAJi.th some legi.slaU.on. MR. CHAIRMAN : Shall Clause 2 carry? MR. I.ONG: Mr·. Chai .t'lllc:Hl . MR. CHATRMnN : T h e.~ hon . the mernbE:!r for· St.. John's Er:-ls L. MR . LONG : Thank you. I just want to have a word on this thing as r have been part.icipati.ng for some time in this debate, and spoke the last tlme. Now that we are close to a resolution in whi