Volume XL Tuesday . .;;-:~ Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Third . Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas Number 17 24 March 1987

... ;- The House met at 3:00p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Statements by Ministers MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, today I UJish to announce a major reorganization at the senior executive level of the Department of Forest Resources and Lands. These changes are designed to improve the efficiency of delivery of departmental programmes, as UJell as . to provide neUJ opportunities and challenges to the senior public servants involved. Mr. Kenneth J. S.

Bean lands, UJho has been Assistant Deputy Minister of Lands, moves to a nelJJ position of Assistant Deputy Minister of Administration and Support Services . Mr. Beanlands has been Assistant Deputy Minister of Lands for the past tUJelve years and holds a Bachelor of Science degree in forestry and a Master of Science degree. He has been UJith my department and its predecessor departments since 1964. During his time as Assistant Deputy Minister of Lands, Mr.

Beanlands vastly improved the department's capability in handling virtually all matters affecting administration of CroUJn lands, including the speeding up of applications and claims so that ·today about 60 per cent of lands applications are processed UJithin L897 March 24, 1987 Vol XL sixty days. Mr. Speaker, I am also pleased to announce the appointment of Mr. Rob•;!rt Winsor as Assistant Deputy Minister of Lands, succeeding Min. Beanlands. Mr. Winsor moves fr'om his position of Eastern Regional Director. A Corner Brook nai:tve, Mr.

Winsor has been UJi th the department for tUJelve years and holds dE!greE!S in GE!ography and Economics, and is UJidely experienced in lands administration and public relations. The other major change affects the very important Regional Services part of rny dE!partrnE!nt, with four regional offices in St. John's, Gander, Corner Brook and Goose Bay, and many forestry unit offices in other locations. Approximately two-thirds of the activity at the Regional Office level is in forestry, and the four Regional Directors will ·now rE!port directly to the Assistant Deputy Min~ster of Forestry, Dr. M. Nazir.

These Regional Directors formerly reported to the position of Executive Director of Regional · Services, UJhich has noUJ been replaced. Mr. Sterling Hoddinott, formerly Executive Director of Regional Services becomes Executive Director of Special Projects. He holds a degree in Forestry and has provided strong leadership over the years in setting up our regional system, and UJill continue to be part of the senior management team, providing advice and assistance to the Deputy Minister. Mr. R. D. Peters. changes mean of forestry, and planning, and direction of Mr.

Speaker, these that all asFects including policy field operations, No. 17 R897

the department1s headquarters in Corner Brook. will come within the administration. of the Assistant Deputy Minister of Forestry, setting the stage for better co-ordinated forestry management and development in this Province. Dr. Nazir. who has been Assistant Deputy Minister of Forestry since 1979, holds undergraduate degrees in Agriculture and Forestry, and a Doctorate degree in Economics. He first joined the Department in 1976 as an Economist and served as Director of Forest Products Development before being appointed Assistant Deputy Minister of Forestry. Dr.

Nazir is also involved in various interprovincial forestry issues and is currently Chairman of a National Committee under the direction of the -Canadian Council of Forest Ministers which is developing a package of provincial measures to replace the current 15 per cent export tax on softwood lumber. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of my colleague from Windsor -Buchans (Mr. Flight) I am going to respond to the statement.

What we see here ·is a little bit of housekeeping on the part of the Department of Forestry, where they are reorganizing some of their people. There are some very fine gentlemen there. Mr. Speaker. I know most of them personally, having had occasion to deal with them. I cannot help but notice the lack of women in that department. though, Mr. Speaker. L898 March 24. 1987 Vol XL The government is not living up to its avowed aim to put women into those influencial positions.· I would like to see more. Mr.

Speaker, whenever we gElt any correspondence from the Department of Forest Resources and Lands we always look at it closely to see if there is any attempt being made to deal with the problems within t:hat great industry. l:he biggE!S t industry money-wise in the Province. It is lamentable to realize t:ha·t loggers who used to be guarantEled eight to ten l'nonths employrnE!nt a year are now in the ten week syndrome. Most: of the loggei"S in the Province are now lucky if they get stamps to collect their unemployment insurancE! which is a sad reflection.

I believe. on the way that the logging industry has been managed in this Province. Mr. Speaker. The other part of this stateiTIElnt deals with the Crown lands Division . Now. if the r El is a frustrating division in that department it is Crown lands. The minister is now saying it is possbile to bring in application to apply for a piece of Crown land and that you can get it in sixty days. Now. I would ventUI"I:l to say, Mr. Speaker. that that is absolute nonsense. They attempted to bring it down to ninety days some time ago, but it still takes a year or two to get a piece of Crown land in this Province.

The rigmarole, the regulations, the bureaucracy that people have to go through to get a piece of Crown land turns many people away and they give up, they will not wait for it. Another problem. Mr. applying for Crown No. 17 Speaker. land is lAJi th this R898

requirement that when Crown land is applied for you haue to include a $50.00 deposit. Now, this makes sense, I suppose, as far as the bookkeeping end of it goes, but if I apply for a piece of Crown land and my application j,s turned down because of the Environment Department, the Health Department, or what haue you, and I apply for another piece of land, I haue to come up with . another $50. 00 and I still do not know whether or not I can get that piece, and I could end up paying $500 for ten different pieces of land, because every time I apply I haue to pay extra money.

I think the minister should look into this so that a person living in St. Julien's, which is the example I am thinking about, who wishes to apply for a piece of Crown land, if he is not successful in his first application his application fee can then be applied to the second, third or· fourth application, or until he is finally allowed to get a piece of Crown land.

If the reorganization in the department means the clearing up of some of that bureaucracy it would be a wonderful thing for the people of this Province, and the people of Newfoundland would be happy to know that when they apply for a piece of .Crown land they do not haue to wait two or three years, they do not haue to fight the government to get it, they can get it by just filling in their .application and without going through too much bureaucracy, Mr. Speaker. As for the people who haue their had jobs moved up, or whatever, . I offer them congratulations on behalf of this party. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

L899 March 24, 1987 Vol XL MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. John 1 s East. MR. LONG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Without having had a copy in advance and not an awful lot of time to prepare a response, I simply say that we look forward to the reorganization to streamline and make more efficient the delivery of services, in particular l:he regional offices, and we hope that this reorganization is a moue toward decentralization, making contact with people where they are and making regional services more easily accessible. Thank you .. Oral Questions MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I haue a question for the Premier. The Premier may be aware that the Secretary of Sta l:e for External Affairs, Mr. Clark, wrote a letter, dated February 14, 1986, to Mr. L. Perouan, the Assistant Representative for l:he French government for Maritime Affairs. I haue obtained t.he wording and I haue supplied a copy of the wording to l:he · Premier through the Government House Leader a few minutes ago.

The letter says, in part, that the French fishing fleet will be allowed to continue to fish in Canadian waters outs ide the Gu 1 f, I quote, 11 en mille neuf cent No. 17 1~899

quatre--vingt six et bien au dela 11 -in 1986 and beyond. The letter makes no reference to any reduction in the total allowable catch. I ask the Premier, Mr. Speaker, was he indeed aware ~f the content of this letter prior to this afternoon and, if so, when did he become a aware of it? And, more to the point, would he not agree that the letter constitutes a clear admission by Mr. Clark and the Government of Canada that it supported, as much as a year ago, the concept of trading away Canadian fish to . accommodate French conce!rns? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: M-r.

Speaker, I have some difficulty in reading the writing the han. member sent over. I became aware of the letter this morning at around 10: 15 a.m. when I viewed the tape of the programme on esc tE! le yi s_ion last night which was well done, by the way. I very often condemn esc television for various things that they say and do so I should also, if they do something well, compliment them upon it, and I do that wholeheartedly today because I think they did it well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: I do not know who in CBC are responsible, but I guess the reporter. who went over must be one, and she did just an excellent job. It was one of the better programmes I have seen on CBC television to document an issue. I became aware of the letter on L900 March 24, 1987 Vol XL the tape from the programme that was aired last night, and I was surprised, to say the least, at some of the quotes that were taken out of the letter and aired on the programme. The han. rnembe1n rais{:!d a couple of the quotes.

TherE! was also one there dealing with ·~e will not let the fishermen of Saint-Malo down•, or whatever. MR. SIMMONS: Will not abandon them. PREMIER PECKFORD: •we will not abandon whatever. One would Newfoundland and fishermen come first and third, and perhaps that the others. them, 1 or think that Cani3.d ian and SE!COnd thr::~n afl:.e:~r There is a right of perpetuity there. that was i n the 1 9 7 2 agreement, that obviously was not signed by the present federal government, which gives thenn rights to Canadian fish.

That is there, but there is no need for one to go out of one•s way to reiterate their ongoin~ interest in insuring that l:he French fleet are protected off the Coast of' Newfoundland and outside the Gulf. So I am disturbed by the comments or the contents of that letter, and I will be taking thE! matter up with the federal government at the earliest opportunity, which, quite likely, will be either later on this afternoon, but for sure tomorrow when I go to Ottawa myself for the aboriginal conference.

I express, on behalf of l:he government, our deep concern with ongoing comments that are emanating from the Government of Canada through the Secretary of External Affairs. We are in negotiations again today, I think it is, on some of the matters that No. 17 R900

are outs tanding. Our position has not changed, and I join with the member opposit-e· in saying that we are very, very concerned with what is just another piece of information which tends to show - or shows, better said - a preoccupation by the federal government in things French rather than things Newfoundland. MR. SIMMONS : Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Fortune- Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: The Premier is right that he will have difficulty with my handwriting.

I got the French text just an hour or so ago and I will have a translation of it later today and I will be happy to make a copy availablE! to him. It is a devastating letter, I say to him, in many respects. A number of the details in it are quite shocking admissions. I want to identify with his commendation of Marie Thompson, because it was a marvellous job and brought some important facts to our attention. The supplementary, Mr.

Speaker: The letter also indicates on page 2 that French and Canadian officials would be meeting shortly - now keep in mind this letter is being written in February, 1986 - to discuss the tradeoffs implicit in the letter. That is not a quote from the letter, it is a conclusion I draw, to discuss the tradeoffs implicit in the letter.

I ask the Premier, therefore, given that Mr; Clark was aware as early as February, 1986, that such a meeting would be proceeding almost immediately, at what time L901 March 24, 1987 Vol XL were the Premier and the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador made aware of the intention of the Government of Canada to commence these negotiations? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I do not know that off the top of my hE!ad, but I will undertake to get the exact dates of when the meeting occurred after February 1986 to see, in fact, were we involved or were we notified about the meeting.

I will get that For the hon . member as quickly as I can and supply him with l:hat information just to see when we were. May· I just go on to say that I am sure the hon. member and a11 hon. members were also ·rather surprised, and we have to check this out as well, to hear in the programme the representatiVE! of the EEC talking about, as he understood it, a commitment by thE! Government of Canada to renew l:he long-term agreement which runs out at the end of 1987, which is just as disturbing.

One can only hope that the representative for EEC was speaking on some kind of an opinion that he had rather than there being any commitment given by the Government of Canada. MR. TULK : So that is new? PREMIER PECKFORD : Oh, yes. Very definitely. Fro1n all of our information the federal government does not intend to renew that long-term agreement. And, therefore, it was rather surprising to hear a representative of EEC make the commitment that they have a No. 1 '7 1~901

commitment to have that renewed. We said in January and February that one of the fears that we had was that France, being a member of the EEC and now getting some fish, singularly itself, through its J972 agreement, would also mean that the other EEC countries could come looking for more fish after the 1987 agreement was up and, obviously, our worst fears have been validated by what these gentlemen said last night on ·the television show. So it is an ongoing battle and an ongoing affair which we will be on top of daily and we will pursue all of the things coming out of that programme.

And I undertake to get the information sought in the previous question as to when we knew about the meeting of February, 1986, whether we were involved, whether we were consl!l ted and whether we knew about the meeting beforehand. MR. SIMMONS: One other supplementary question, if I may, Mr.Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: The Premier will note in the 1 e t t er , j u s t i n fa i r n e s s to a 11 concerned, that Mr. Clark did indicate in Paragraph 5 that he did not foresee any possibility that the agreement of 1972 would be renewed or reopened or extended.

The Premier alluded to another part of the letter in which Mr. Clark assured the people of Saint-Malo that the federal government was not abandoning them. And the quip from my good friend ·from Fogo is apropos, because· one would get the impression that somehow there was some special obligations beyond L902 March 24, 1987 Vol XL those that nations normally have between each other, some special obligations there that the minister felt in saying that he was not abandoning the people of Saint-Malo. I would hope that he would have spent some time saying whether he is going to abandon the people of Newfoundland. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: And my supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, to the Premier is, will he, during his trip to Ottawa, maybe, or otherwise in talking to Mr. Clark and Mr. Mulroney, determine what is it - is it something beyond the fish issue, something beyond good Francophone relations? - that appears to be so preoccupying the mind of the federal government on this Canada France deal that ·it is not seeing the cause of the people! of Newfoundland, the fisherlnen IAJho are being abandoned outright in this issue? PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: There is no question about that, Mr. Speaker, that I will do my utmost to find out if there is something that is not apparent, you know, and why would they haVE! . this pre-occupation with the fishermen of Brittany over the fishermen of Newfoundland. I ulill use my best efforts, through the telephone, through letters and through direct meetings in the next two or three days to find out just what this meant and what led to this letter and what other kinds of correspondence carne out No. 17 R9 .02

of that letter to the French people. It is just an incredible situation. It ·shows an attitude. I think that is the problem with it all, it shows an attitude. The other point that needs to be made - and I will not delay the proceedings of the Question Period - is, as the Europeans have said, there does not seem to be a question of principle with the Canadians, just a question of how much.

I mean, we always, in this part of the country, have some principles relating to our resources, I think on both sides of the House, and I find that somewhat alarming to hear Europeans depict, describe Canada 1 s stand as not one of principle on this issue but one of just how much they have to give. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the mE!tnber for Twillingate . MR. W. CARTER : Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier and it concerns another letter that was sent to the Prime Minister as reported in a Canadian press story out of Halifax yesterday.

The letter is reported to have been written by the Premier of Nova Scotia, and its contents were supported by his Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Leefe), and in it they are strenuously opposing any attempt by Newfoundland to get shared jurisdiction. I wonder will the Premier tell the House what effect will that lobby have on his efforts, and will he be discussing that matter tomorrow, or at least this week, with the Prime Minister? MR. SPEAKER: L903 March 24, 1987 Vol XL The hon. the Premier .

PREMIER PECKFORD: I have all ready discussed it and I have also sent off some lettE!rS concerning it because I did get a copy of it. Nova Scotia has always been in a strange position. Some years or sornE! months they have supported us on the whole question of concurrent jurisdiction in the fishery, and then at other times, two or threE! or four mon-t:hs later, they take a completely different approach . It is disturbing.

We have had resolutions out of Premiers 1 conferences, and one last year where Nova Scotia supported the Newfoundland position, and not/J tJJe find that they are not supporting us, that they are, as well. as other Eastern Canadian provinces, looking for more Nort:hern · cod. Everybody is after the Northern cod, every man and his dog is after the Northern cod, Mr. Speaker, and it is just incredible. I do not understand why Nova Scotia takes their position. I have also mentioned the matter to the Premier of Nova Scotia and written him about it and will continue to use our best efforts.

You know, Nova Scotia has nothing to lose on it. If they are going to be looking for more of cod, then we want more of their shrimp or more of their scallop or whatever, which they would adamantly refuse to give us . So they have been. in our view, extremely unfair and unreasonable in their approach .to this whole question of concurrent jurisdiction, which could give us some greater security for resource supply in the future. MR. W. CARTER: ·A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: No. 17 R903

A supplementary, the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: hon. the Mr. Speaker, I wonder can the Premier tell the House if the views expressed by the government of Nova Scotia are shared by the other Maritime Premiers? Is the Premier of Nova Scotia being aided and abetted in his lobby against Newfoundland by large fish companies that have branch offices here in Newfoundland, with maybe their headquarters in Nova Scotia? MR. SPEAKER : The han . the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: No. Not at all in the sense that we find none of the large companies against us in what we are proposing .

The other Maritime Premiers have been on side and have supported us . It has been Nova Scotia, by themselves, who have from time to time reversed their positions back and forth, at one period of time supporting us and another period of time not. I think everybody eJ.se seems to be very supportive of the position that we are taking, to the point where, as soon as the Quebec Constitutional matters are over, the next round of Constitutional talks are going to center on fisheries and Senate reform and property rights.

All of the Premiers agreed that fisheries would form the subject of the next round of Constitutional talks along the lines of our proposal for concurrent jurisdiction. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY : L904 March 24, 1987 Uol XL Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier has the present administration had the opportunity yet to prepare a position with respect to the Quebec proposals for amendment to include Quebec in the new constitution and, specifically, whether the Premier believes that any of l:he propose1ls would involve special status for Quebec? MR.

SPEAKER : The han . the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, there have been ongoing bilateral meE!tings bE!tWeE!n the various provinces and representatives of the Government of Quebec over the last number of months. The Quebec GovernmE!nt has sent emissaries, indi~iduals representing their gove~nment and representing their position on l:he constitution, around to see whether, in fact, there tAJas sufficient support to lead to a First Ministers' Conferenc~~ so that QUE!bE!C could be!come part of the consti ·tution. Th1:!se discussions have· centered around . the position that Quebec is taking.

Now that has varied from time to time, and it gE ! ts difficult to characterize whether, in fact, on certain issues one can classify or characterize it as special status or not. We are going ·to have to wail: to see what their final position is in the meeting that is scheduled to be held on April 30. of this year, next month, that the Prime Minister has called to deal, at this point in time, with the final position of QUE!bec and where thE! provinces stand. In their positions think perhaps most characterize it, if No. 17 right now, I people would not special 1~904

status, as very close to it. If you get into immigration, for example, they -want certain special requirements there that the other provinces do not have. Does th_at constitute special status, given the preponderance of the French language and French culture in Quebec, versus not having that kind of thing in the rest of the provinces? In some of the other areas, on their

preambles dealing with duality of the two nations or two peoples, and so on, if you add them all up, the amending formula and so on, especially in immigration, everything else being equal, perhaps the majority of the provinces could go along with it. But as you get into amending formulae, the

preamble to it and so m'e of the other is sues , I think it is going to come down to, perhaps, the amending formula and opting out financial compensation as things that could be stumbling blocks to bringing everybody together. MR. BARRY: Mr . Speaker, a supplementary. MR . SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: Is the present administration in this Province in agreement with the concept of a veto built in for Quebec with respect to the amending formula for future amendments? MR. SPEAKER : The han . the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, there has not been, I do not think, any specific veto asked for at this point in time, L905 March 2 4, 19 8 7 · Uol XL so we will have to wait and seE! what happens at the end of April. If in fact there was a special veto, a bona fide vet:o there, it would bE! very di ffi cult for this Province to find favour with that. We have always taken the position, from our constitutional paper that was issued before the last round of constitutional talks where the constitution was patriated, that juridical equality must be the overriding principle that would guide us in our constitutional discussions.

We have not steered away from that principle which we think is VE!ry important for the ongoing Confederation as we know it. MR. BARRY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A final ·-supplementary, the han. the member for Mount Scio. Ml~ . BARRY: Will the Premier undertake, in th e House, to present the position of this administration prior to making the presentation at the Constitutional Conference? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I do not think I could agree to do it beforehand because I do not know what some of the final positions are, and there are s ti 11 talks going on betwee -n the various provinces and Quebec. I would not want to go to the conference, having put all our positions on the t.able beforehand, until we have sat down together around the table, and in any way try to preempt the negotiations so that Newfoundland would be seen to be trying to stop the negotiations or to stymie the negotiations No. 17 R905

before they began. But after the conference is over I would have no hesitation in outlining in complete detail what our positions were on all of the basic issues that Quebec are putting on the table. MR. KELLAND: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister of Labour (Mr. Blanchard) to provide some information with respect to the following subject matter. Recently. within the last few weeks, an electrical inspector1s job was filled in the area.

I would like to ask the minister to tell us-. tell the House, what method was used to fi 11 that particular job?· Did it go through the Public Service Commission? Was it advertised? Were there interviews? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Labour. MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker. I am not fully aware of the particular position. I know the position, where it is and everything, but I am not fully conversant with what happened here. I will undertake, Mr. Speake!r. to find ou.t. It could be that there is a temporary appointment, a gentleman on sick leave or out for some reason, but I will check it out, Mr.

Speaker, and report back later. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: L906 March 24, 1987 Uol.XL The han. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is to l:he Minister of Social Services (Mr. Brett). and it is concerning, Mr. Speaker. the young boy who is still at the Health Science Centre. There were a number of questions asked last week concerning the visits. but I did not want to get the issue clouded with the original qUE! s tion of h~i s e s cape .

I would 1 i k e to as k has the minister, since the young boy escaped, had any enquiry heJ.d as to the circumstances surrounding the escape and if he is satisfied that there WE!re enough attE!ndants with the young boy when he was transported from thE! Boys 1 Home to the Health Science Complex? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I am satisfied that there was enough security with him. MR. EFFORD: .A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I asked the rniniste!r has he had any enquiry rnade as l:o the circumstances of the boy 1 s escape because we could haue seen another loss of life. The minister owes it to this House and owes it to the family, and to all the young boys at the home who are his responsibility. Wi1l the Minister tell this House has he made any enquiries into the No . 1 '7 R906

circumstances surrounding the escape of the young boy? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services . MR. BRETT : There is no need for an enquiry, Mr. Speaker. The boy left his own home . He was at home with his parents and when the police went to the front door he went out the backdoor and he went into the woods, so there is not much need of an enquiry there. When the police left he came back with his parents again. MR. EFFORD : A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker , what the minister has said is totally false.

The young boy escaped custody from the Health Science Complex. He ran into the woods twelve hours latE!r when the Mounties w~nt to his home. The question to the minister again is: Has he investigated or will he undertake an investigation as to why the young lad escaped, and why there was no search for him until twelve hours after he escaped, until the next day when the RCMP started looking for him? MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! I would ask the hon. member to withdraw the statement that he made about being totally false.

I would refer him to Beauchesne, page 106, and that says 11 false 11 , 11 false representations 11 , 11 false statement 11 is unparliamentary. So I would ask the hon. member to L907 March 24, 1987 Vol XL withdraw that. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I withdraw that statement and say it is not correct what the minister said . MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Minister of Social Services . MR. BRETT : Mr. Speaker, all these questions WE!re answered last WE!ek whE!n thE! issue came up, every single one of them. I do not see the need to repeat them and the rna t ter is now in the hands of the police. MR . TULK : Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo . MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour. It concerns the recent restructuring of the Workers 1 Compensation Board and the patronagE! appointments to be compe~sated for befor e these commissioners could be remoVE!d. · Let me ask the minister has a settlement been reached with these gentlemen or just what is the status of the settlements at this point? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Labour . MR . BLANCHAIW : Mr. Speaker, settlement, as far as I am concerned, was reached wi l:h the two gentlemen.

There was a proposal and a settlement made before the board was put in place. It was one of the reasons for the delay. MR. TULK : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . No . 17 R907

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, member for Fogo. · MR. TULK: the han. the I wonder could the han. gentleman tell us what is the;! cost to the subscribers since the Workers1 Compensation Board is paid for not by the government but by people in the Province? I wonder could he tell us what the cost of all the se·ttlements, if any, were to these han. gentlemen? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Labour. MR. BLANCHARD: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not prepared at this time to state what the cost was. I have checked with the Department of Justice and received a legal opinion.

I 'have been asked that same question by the media. And the answer is, Mr. Speaker, that this matter was dealt· with in an Order-of-Council. Within the meaning of The . Freedom Of Information Act that information is not available. · MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. TULK: Do I correctly understand the minister to stand in this House and not tell us what three patronage appointments haye cost the people of this Province?

As a member of this House I do not know how much, and the people of this Province do not know how much the three patronage appointments cost the people of the Province. Am I now given to understand -I want to hE1ar him again, just to make sure I heard correctly -that this L908 March 24, 1987 Vol XL has been dealt with in a Minute-of-Cabinet and that he is not going to release those figures to the public? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. making a speech. I did any questi·on. MR. TULK: member is not hE1ar I asked a question, Am I given to understand?11 MR. TOBIN: You are not in caucus now, Beaton.

You are not in caucus now. MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. t~e Minister of Labour. MR. 8 LANCHA RD: Mr. Speaker, I felt I answE1re1d thE! han. the member 1 s question. That is information that I am riot prepared to give at this particular time unless I am directed by some different authority to make that information available. There were not three appointments anyway, Mr. Speaker, there were two. MR. TULK: Two, yes. How much did it cost? MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for St. John 1 s East. MR.

LONG: My question is for the Minister of Labour concerning the walk-out by members of Steelworkers1 Local 5'795 at Labrador City. Could l:he minister tell us what involvement he or his department had in events No. 17 R908

leading up to the strike? MR. BLANCHARD:. Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Ministe~ of Labour. MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker, we haue had a conciliation officer dealing with the dispute at IOCC and the USWA, Local 5795, for some weeks now . As far as I know he is still there today, Mr. Speaker. After they had the first uote and the discussions broke off, our conciliator brought the parties back together again, and we had thought that they had reached an agreement. But, unfortunately, that was not the case. MR. LONG: A supplementary, ~r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for St.

John's East. MR. LONG : My supplementary would be concerning actions that the minister took on Sunday, ouer the weekend, in going to l:he media in contradiction of a press blackout. Could the minister tell us why he went to the media on Sunday to say that there was a tentatiue agreement when there had not actually been an agreement, and an agreement on a press blackout? MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour. MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker, there was no as far as I know press blackout in L909 March 24, 1987 Vol XL this particular case.

I was in my office Sunday at about 8: 15 and I receiued a telephone call from my deputy informing me that an agreement had been reached at the table between negotiating committees representing the Iron Ore Company of Canada and the United Steelworkers, Local 5'795, and that within the next day or two th ey would be uoting on the agreement. And he had said that the conciliator had called him and told him that a release could bE! made on it. MR. DECKER : Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The hon . the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the hon. the Minister of Health (Dr .

Twomey) . I want the minister to tell us what is the ration ale for limiting the size of new homes for special care, the boarding home, to six residents? DR. TWOMEY : Mr.Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Health . DR . TWOMEY : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We always get uarious inputs from different people in our communities and across this country as to what is the idt;!al kind of personal horne or licE!nCE!d boarding home. I would say that it is a fair reading that most people would say that 'I would like to be in an enuironment which . closely resembles my horne. That is where I would like to liut:1.

I would like to haue the opportunity No. 17 R909

of treating the owners of that home - you can call them the landlord and .the landlady - in such a way as if I was dealing with my own family. And if on certain days of the week or certain times of the day I might like to eat something that is very difficult to get in the larger institutions, then I would feel that I was closer to home. 1 I have been to many of these homes myself and each and every one has his own perception of what he wo u 1 d 1 i k e be s t . I k now that i n Saskatchewan five or six or seven bed nursing homes are the most popular. MR. DECKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A' supplementary, member for the Isle. MR. DECKER: the Strait hon. of the Belle It is a very laudible reason. The unfortune thing operators are saying that six bed homes are not viable, thus the quality of care is endangered, as the han. minister will know. Will the minister be increasing the subsidy in his desire to keep those small homes down to six people so they can have all this interpersonal relations? Will he be increasing the subsidy so they can become viable?

Or will he be increased the number of beds to twenty, as the operators are as king for, so that they can become viable at the present subsidy which is being offered? You cannot have it both ways. A small home is great but it is not viable. DR. TWOMEY : Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : L910 March 24, 1987 Vol XL The han . the Minister of Health. pR. TWOMEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I get many reports and varying advice as to l.uhat is ideal, whether it is six or twenty, and that is being frank.

I know that the entrepreneurs in the fiE!ld would like to have a twenty bed home, because obviously there is more profit in that. We have not got a complete costing of what it costs to run one of these homes per day for each individual. WE! have some idea and, hopefully in the near future, we will have a better idea of what it cost:.s to support an individual in a licensed boarding home. MR. DECKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isl~. MR.

DECKER: As the han. mini·s ter rightly says, he does receive advice, and among the advice the provincial bed count, which has been completed since July, I understand. Would the mi_nister tell this House why he is sitting on thts study? A lot of entrepreneurs want to build homes and are waittng for the result from this provincial bed count. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Health . D-R . TWOMEY : I hope that within the next. lAJeek or ten days I will be abl~ to release that report. MR. SPEAKER: Order, p_lease! No. 17 R910

The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. Petitions MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Mount Scio - Bell Island. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . BARRY : Mr. Speaker, I have a petition here and it is done in different forms. One form is the form that was ruled on by Your Honour yesterday but another for·m is different Your Honour. It is the same subject matter. There are a large number ·af citizens of this Province who have signed it. I think there are 1, 258 names. I have not counted 'them myself but that is what the total says on the envelope. It looks like more than that actually.

Anyhow, there are over 1,200 citizens who have signed. If I could just read it out, I believe it should satisfy the technical requirements but I will leave it to Your Honour. It says, 11 We believe that most citizens of our Province would agree that child abuse is a most serious and heinous crime. The recent court decision to reduce the sentencing of offender Dr. S.

Collins from five years to two years seems to us a trivializing of the enormous suffering endured by eleven children. 11 If you agree, sign here and we will take this petition to the Department of Justice. 11 L911 March 24-, 1987 Vol XL Underneath is the St. John 1 s Status of Women Council with the related groups who make up the council. This particular one is a one page thing and it is signed by twenty or so individuals.

Now, that is one form of another petition which I would submit to, Your Honour, is in a sufficient or legitimate form in that it says, 11 If you agree, s :ign here and tAJe will take this petition to the Department of Justice. 11 So, I would submit that under thE! aegis of this document we should have before this House the very great concern that has developed throughout the Province as a result of the decision of the Court of Appeal. Now, I do not bE!lieve it is fair to blame the judges of the Court of Appeal becaUSE! they are there trying to do the best job they possibly can. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

We will have to accept it as a valid petition before the han. member can speak on it. MR. BARRY : Well, I would submit to, Your Honour, that this form should bE! sufficient. Just to save time I can indicate another petition form in this total package. There is another form of petition which went out by way of advertisements in newspapers and, in the same way, these advertisements have been . signE!d by individuals a-nd sent in, the subject matter being the same.

In some of these cases, Your Honour, there is not more than one signature on that piece of paper which is the clipped out advertisement, but in this time of No. 17 1~911

mass media communications, I would ask, Your Honour, to take a look and see ~hethar it is not possible for Your Honour to consider the total package which is being presented all of which are obviously instigated. by the same group, all of which have the same substanc~ and are signed by a large number of citizens whose concern should not be ignored. So, I wil1 submit this entire package to Your Honour and ask you, Your Honour, to make a ruling. If Your Honour wishes some time, it is not necessary for my own purposes that it go forward today.

I would be pleased to leave it with Your Honour and let Your Honour bring in a ruling at the appropriate time. It is a issue which, I beliE!Ve, members of this House should address· before too long. MR. SPEAKER: If the han.· member does not fE!el that there is a great urgency about it, I would prefer to have a look at it and rule later. MR. BARRY: Yes. I will leave the outside one because I think that is the most clear one where we .have an obviously appropriate form of petition under which all the rest can be lumped. Orders of the Day MR. OTTENHEIMER: Motion 1. MR.

SPEAKER: The motion debate was adjourned by the han. the Minister of Mines and Housing. The han. the Minister of Mines and L912 · March 24; 1987 Vol XL Housing. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I will not be too long. I spoke on the resolution yesterday afternoon. I will just clue up. As I said yesterday afternoon, I was a member of the Royal Canadian Air Force for some tE!n years and lived at various air force stations. As a matter of fact, for six of those years I was on the flight path of one of the main runways at Greenwood.

I trust there was not too much of an affect on me as a result of having lived near the end of that runway. We had all sorts of jel:s take off, we had four engine, as I said, Bristol Brittanias take oFf at ·all times of the day and night. Mr. Speaker, I saw no r.eason why this House should not support this resolution with respect to the NATO base in Happy Valh!y -Goose Bay. Mr. Speaker, it was pE!CUliar to hear the han. two rnernb,~rs dotJJn on this end of the House, lhe left wing of Newfoundland politics, l:he NDP, talk about the possibility of the effects of a NATO station in Happy Valley -Goose Bay. Mr.

Speaker, the Premier point~d out Tommy Douglas was one of l:he first people in the world, in Canada, to sign an agreement l:o have low level missile flights over Western Canada, and Blakeney, another NDP Premier, also supported the flights. Roy Romanov, another ministE!r in that .NDP government was one .of the great supporters of low lE!Vel flying over Western Canada. Mr. Speaker, crying to the for the F--18 No. 17 Pawley today is federal government contract, an NDP R912

Premier. It is funny what happens when people of the NDP stripe gE!t into power. When they are outside looking in they can espouse everything but when they get into power, Mr. Speaker, they generally go along with &orne rational thinking. So, Mr. Speaker, I support the resolution as presented by the han. the Government House Leader (Mr . Ottenheimer). Mr. Speaker, I am proud to be able to stand on the floor of this Assembly to support it. The han. the Leader of the NDP (Mr.

Fenwick) in the House talked about and read letters showing opinions from different people in the Province who are against the NATO station and the low level tactical air base at Goose Bay. He quoted different people. He quoted the Roman Catholic Diocese of Schefferville and an

article in The Monitor. Mr. Speaker, , nobody speaks For all of the people in the Roman Catholic Church. Certainly on several occasions I have had my times disagreeing with certain people who have written articles in The Monitor with respect to certain things that have happened in thE! Province. The Leader of the NDP, when he stands in his place in this House, as Your Honour pointed out, should be talking about what his opinion is of the NATO station. The hon. member did not do that.

As a matter, when he finished his spe,ech yesterday afternoon, he got up and left the House because he did not want to be seen to be voting on that issue. The hon. the member for St. John's Eas~ (Mr . Long), Mr. Speaker, today, when the resolution was mentioned in this House, got up from his L913 March 24-, 1987 Vol XL place and left the House so that he would not have to vote on this issue. Mr. Speaker, they cannot have it both ways . They have to stand in this House and tell us what their feelings are and they have to vote on what their feelings are. That is what the people of St.

John • s East elected the member for St. John 1 s East (Mr. Long) for, and that is what the people in Menihek elected the Leader of the NDP (Mr. Fenwick) for, to stand in the ·.ir places, to make their feelings known, and to vote on the different and various issues . Mr. Speaker, I support the resolution. I hope every other member in this House supports thE! resolution, because, Mr. Speaker, I think it is important for the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. We have been fighting for years to get our share of defence dollars spent in this Province. This is an opport:uni ty for us to accomplish some of that.

Mr. Speaker, I hope the debate comes to a speedy conclusion and that we get on with voting on this issue so that we can show some support for the people in the district of Naskaupi and the people in Labrador. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS : N-o. 17 R913

Mr. Speaker, I am proud to support this resolution. It is an opportunity for the people of Labrador, in particular, but, as my good friend from Pleasantville has just concluded saying, an opportunity for all of us to share some of the largess ~nvolved in an endeavour that is going forward anyway, whether it goes forward in Labrador or in some other part of the world. Surely, Mr. Speaker, we need not take much of our time to talk about this issue in terms of attempting to convince people, because all people in this Chamber, who have not closed minds, have already made a determination on this particular issue.

So, Mr. Speake!r, I intend for a few moments to use the opportunity to draw attention to another service that this resolution provides the people of Newfoundland; an opportunity to scrutinize a party which has been at ·tempting to pull the wool over peoples' eyes for a long time. I suppose, Mr. ·speaker, for years the question was: What is the NDP? Then it was: Why is the NDP? Now, as of five o'clock yesterday the question has gone out: Where is the NDP? Where are they physically today? Where are they on this particular issue? The issue, Mr. Speaker, is a fairly clear-cut one.

It is not whether there will be a NATO base, but where it will be. Thinking of my friends in the NDP, I guess a way of capsuling the problem is in the following: Will Labrador be goosed by the turkeys in the NDP? The meHnber for Naskaupi (Mr. Kelland), a ma-n u1ho has already made quite a contribution to this House, I thought, I say to him in all L914 March 24, 1987 Uol XL kindness, he kind of flubbed one little moment yesterday. He tried, you see, Mr. Speaker, to present a button to the members of the House.

That was okay, so far as it went, but he was trying to present a button saying, "We support NATO in Goose Bay." I say to him he should haVE! known that you do not present one button to the NDP. You present two buttons to the NDP. One reads, "We support NATO in Goose Bay," and the other reads, "We do not support NATO in GooSE! Bay." I would ask the Page, if he wou1d, to put that on the desk of the gentleman for St. John's East (Mr. Long) who is within hE!aring of rny voice, and eventually will have the courage to come back into thE! House. The gentleman from Menihek (Mr.

Fenwick), in fairnE!SS to him, is , in his district dotng some district business. Whether it is something that he suddenly found a re!ason to do, I am not sure~, but he was on a plane out of here first thing this morning. Mr. Speaker, I must go to Shakespeare for some hE!lp, and with apologies to him. 'Friends, Tories, countrymen, I came to praise the NDP, nol: to bury them.' I praise their unbounded consistency. Mr. Speaker, is there any group in this entire country more consistent of position than the NDP? As on every other issue, they are both sides of this one too. Now that is consistency.

They are on both sides of this issue as they are on every other issue. I praise l:.he NDP, Mr. Speake!r, for their unfettered attachment to l:he n~:!ar divinity of their very actions. It is no surprise, Mr. Speaker, that they are having difficulty No. 17 R914

with this particular resolution. You see, Mr. Speaker, when you are seized by the- near divinity of what you do, then, Mr. Speaker, you can find reasons for any actions. I knew that the gentleman from Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) had voted for what I thought was the same resolution and then I went looking. I took them and with my friend who normally sits beside me, the gentleman from Bonavista North (Mr. Lush), he looked at one copy and I read the other one yesterday and we discovered that lo and behold these are not the same resolutions .

This is the problem I say to the Government House Leader, this is not the same resolution at all. · No, Mr. Speaker, · a very different resolution. Last June the resolution with a number of 11 WHEREASES 11 had two resolutions, 11

BE IT RESOLVED 11 , •• BE IT FURTHER RESOLUED 11 • This one you will note, Mr. Speaker, before us now only has the _one resolution. So then, what is it the second resolution has left out? If you would understand the reason the NDP is not voting for this resolution, it has to be that they are objecting to the omission of the last resolution. The last resolution says, 11 that this House of Assembly explore the possibility of an all party delegation to visit several of the NATO countries. 11 Now that is what hE! has his nose out of joint for, Mr. Speaker? That- is his problem. He wants- a trip.

I am in favour of his going, Mr. Speaker. Indeed, I would suggest that it be one way. MR. BARRY: I am not going on any more trips. L915 March 24, 1987 Vol XL SOME HON. MEMBERS: Ha, ha! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I praiSE! the NDP for their undying fetish - MR. MORGAN : I have a feeling Chris Decker is going for the leadership. MR. SIMMONS : Mr. Speaker, we have lots of ti111e if the gentleman from Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) - MR. CALLAN: Who goes on trips as well, fishing trips. MR. SIMMONS : Let them play, Mr. Speaker, we have lots of time .

I would like to praise also the NDP for that undying fetish for always doing their homework, Mr. Speaker. liave you ev,?.r seen a group of scholars that ever camE! close to those guys? Mr. Speaker, for example, ·the NDP fE!derally, Ray Skelly and Jirn Fulton and the boys from BC got up and lobbied the Government of Canada for a nuclear-powered ice breaker to protect the Coast of BC, to protect the North of Canada. Now that was all right, Mr. Speaker, you see . That was all right because it was on the other side and, of course, any fool knows that nuclear fallout cannot cross provincial boundaries.

Any foo1 knows that, especially the fool in the NDP. The gentleman from Menihek (Mr. Fenwick), I know· he is not here, but he is here in spirit. I am sure he would want to be here for this important decision so I am .reading it into the record so that No. 17 1~915

he can take it and mail it out to all his people. That is why I made this a pe-on of praise today rather than to in any way denigrate him in his absence. He was r e 1 u c tan t , he to 1 d us yesterday, Mr. Speaker, to vote for the resolution last June. I guess he was. He did not have his instructions last June. But he has had a few months since then, Mr. Speaker, and he has had instructions. God knows he has had instructions. He has had instructions in St. John 1 s to vote for it and he has had instructions in Montreal to vote against it. He cannot say he has had a lack of instruction now. Mr.

Speaker I at another time I when he is in the House, I will give notice that I will be raising the issue of the contempt -I will have to say the alleged contempt - embodied in his statements all the time in the press and here that he has not got his instructions. Beauchesne, May and Maingot have a lot to say about members of the House who are being influ~nced and admit to being influenced by other people in the way they vote. He might take that one unde!r advisement if he w6uld like to stay in this Chamber very long,_ I mean, until the next election. Mr. Speaker, hear those immoral words yesterday.

I quote the gentleman from Menihek: 11If I had my time back. 11 Will he now take the issues he has publicly supported and categorize them for us? On NATO he says, 11If I had my time back. 11 Now, let us take the issues that he suppor-t:ed over the months he has been here. He was against a minimum price of milk. He was against FPI privatization. He was against the F F T is sue . He was for -Oh God, he was for L916 March 24, 1987 Vol XL something! Look increased day care was for equal pay. said it. at that! facilities. He At the time he Now, Mr.

Speaker, would he do us the favour of categorizing all the issues he has spoken on, like NATO and milk prices and FFTs and put them into two columns. I would suggest, for simplicity, he would call the columns the following: Co lurnn number one, 1 I s t:ill stand by them for now, 1 and column number two, 1 If I had my time back. 1 Where, Mr. Speaker, was hE! last June when we could have usc~d his sage insights into all the reasons why we should not be doing what we are doing? He also said, Mr. Speaker, yesterday -and I quotE! him -11WE! need more inforrna~ion. Give us more time to study it. 11 Now, Mr.

Speaker, remember that I properly praiSE!d him earlier for being consistent in a 11 matters . H ~' is consistent here too, cons is te!ntly wrong. Let us quote, not his words against mine, not his words against the Premier 1 s, not his words against the gentleman from Mount Scio (Mr. Barry), not his words against the gentleman from Torngat (Mr. Warren), tAJho u.r.i.11 speak later, let us quote the member for Menihek words against the member for Menihek. Yesterday he said, 11We need more information. We nee!d time. 11 Last year in the House on JUnE! 4, when we dealt with this resolution, on page L2693, Mr.

Fenwick is speaking and he says, 11Mr. Speaker, I can also say to you that I have spent a lot of time looking at· thE! issue from both sides. 11 He is consisteni:ly inconsistent. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is the kind No. 17 1~916

of person you are dealing with; that is the kind of party you are dealing with, They will say anyt:hing at a given time if they think it suits the mode or the purpose of the moment. The people of Newfoundland are not well served by that kind of double talk. He says then, 11 Never mind the federal position, what is a responsible position? 11 I say to him, the answer is in his question. The answer is in that. 11 What is a rE!Sponsible position? 11 l,.ook for it, five words, 11 What is a re!sponsible position. 11 The answer is in the question. It is in the smallest word in the question.

That little one syllable, one letter word, 1 a 1 • That is the responsible position. I say to him, in his absence, what is a responsible position? Just one position, that is what is responsible, a position. Anyone can be for it, be against it, but for Lord 1 s sake, stand for something, or you just might fall for everything. He is not going to vote. He has been sent here and he is just going to forfeit the opportunity to represent the people from Menihek. He is not going to vote! Perhaps, Mr.

Speaker, if I may suggest, Sir, you are a man of fairness, Lord knows - and perhaps you will get the agre~?.ment of the House on this - why not for the moment, when we take the vote, if we could agree, suspend the normal rules of the House and let the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) and the member for St. John 1 s East (Mr. Long) vote twice, once for it, once against it. The latest firmament of Messiah the in the demolition party is Neanderthal the gentleman l917 March 24, 1987 Vol XL from St. John 1 s East (Mr. Long). He had some interesting things to say too yesterday.

He has not q·ui te, I say to him in all fairness - as he nervously sips his coffee out there - I say to him in all fairness and all in kindness he has not quite got his leaders art of being consiste!ntly inconsistent down pat. As yr~. t I have not been able to find too many contradictory terms. Now that might be because he lacks the experience ·- and time will take care of that - but it may bE!, Min. Speaker, I submit to you, For another reason. I am sure my friend from Pleasantville (Mr. Dinn) was u.Jell intentioned when he talked about the left wing of politics in this Province.

If he is talking about the member for Menihek, he has characterized it right when he says the left wing, but if he:! is talking about the gentleman from St. John 1 s East, I would suggE!St to him that if he wants to see where he stands, he, the gentle111an from Pleasantville, should get well over on the left wing, stand close to the gentleman from Menihek and then take a telescope and look far, far left. On a clear day he might see the gentleman from St. John 1 s East (Mr. Long). Yes, Mr. Speaker, he wondered if we were taking him seriously yesterday.

He thought the laughter meant we were not taking him seriously. Mr. Speaker, We:! do not have too many choiCE!S. We either laugh at what he is ~aying or cry about it and we would sooner do the latter. That is what frightens us about it, Mr. Speaker, we do take him seriously. That is what frightens us about the gentleman from St. John~s East. We take him No. 17 1~917

seriously. Mr. Speaker, my friend from Port au Port (Mr. Hodder), a well--read· man, knows great authors and doers like Engels and Marx ~nd so on. I think hE! would agree. with me that Karl Marx is getting a rough ride in this House. The gentleman from St. John 1 s East (Mr. Long) gives Karl Marx a bad name. Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have, as the gentleman from St. John1s East said, come together, the Tories and Liberals, we have come together. We have a lot of differences and a lot of things that separate us but, to our credit, we have a couple of things that bind us.

The day that those things do not bind us we do not belong here, no matter what our party label. We have come together on this NATO resolution, yes, becatise, Mr. Speaker, when it is a straight matter of a choice between economic good sense and socialist pap, I have no troublE! getting in bed with the gentleman from Burin Placentia WE!St (Mr. Tobin) and he and I have a number of disagreements on many things. AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! AN HON. MEMBER: Careful. MR. SIMMONS: In a political that our trip all business. bed.· Now they know to Norway was not SOME HON. MEMBERS: Ha, ha! MR.

DAWE: (Inaudible) Burin -Placentia West, not St. John1s East. MR. SIMMONS: L918 March 24, 1987 Vol XL No, no. I was about to say and I could equally have sa:id about my gentleman friend from St. GE!orgE! 1 s (Mr. Dawe), that he and I have disagreed often, but when it comE!S to a choice between economic good sense and socialist pap, I suggest he will be on the same side of the argumE!nt as I am. That is what I am saying in effect. I understand that my gentlr:11nan friend from Burin -Placentia West is always looking For diversions but I ca~not accommodate him at this particular time. Mr.

Speaker, I guess l:he final word of advice I have for thE! two gentlemen from the NDP is this: there is an old expression that says volumes. It says, and I quote, 11 If you are about to be run out of town, you can 1ook like l:he guest of honour if you position yourself at the head of the p 0 s s e s s i 0 n II • I wo u 1 d s u g g e s t ' MIn . Speaker, that the most the NDP can salvage from this now is a bit of face saving by appearing to do the honourable thing. They are about to be run out of town on this one and on many others. So I appeal to them, just for the sake of their survival. Mr.

Speaker, what would we do without the people in the NDP? We would have to create them, Mr. Speaker, because, you see, l:hey comE! into this House, and just in case somebody here has not done his homework, and just in case hE! is being preoccupied by l:he mail in his office that day or the volume of constituent . calls that day, he can count on the NDP to very quickly focus the issue ·and outline the problem for him. Because, you see, the NDP tn no time at all, if you watch them more than an hour, they would have defined both solutions an~ they No. 17 1~9.18

will be taking both. They will be supporting both solutions. Mr. Speaker, what could be more clear cut than to have that done for you and then you do not have to worry about . doing the thinking. You either stand for it or against it. If you are for it, you are siding with the NDP, if you are against it, you are also siding with the NDP. Mr. Speaker, I thank the Government House Leader (Mr. Ottenheimer) for putting down this motion a second time.

He has done the people of Newfoundland a great service, not only in ensuring that our support has been recorded once again for this economic activity, with its obvious beneficial spinoff in the Goose Ba _y and the Labrador area generally, but he has also given us that other opportunity, the opportunity to once - again transmit to the people of Newfoundland the abominable mug job or con job that the NDP want to do on this issue and every other issue. Let the word go out on what .they are doing and let the word go out they are not going to get away with it any longer. Thank you. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Greening): The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. L919 March 24, 1987 . Uol XL When this debate started yesterday I thought, as elected representatives of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador-, that all of us would take the opportunity to listen and, iF we wanted to express our views, we would express our views. Usually most ordinary Newfoundlanders and Labradorians will express their views and will sit back and listen to the rebuttals.

I must say that yeste!rday I fE!lt ashamed to be a member of this House and know that two members would come in here and s pt':!a k for fifteen or twenty minutes and then take off like two scared dogs. That is exactly what they did yesterday, Mr. Speaker. They ca111e in here and the Speaker, in his wisdom, let both gentlemen speak and both of them spoke and condemned jobs in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. When they finished, both of th,~m took off out through the door just like two scared dogs. Mr.

Speaker, last week I dropp ed a report on the desk of most members . here, and I gave it to the member of Naskaupi (Mr. Kelland), whose district probably is the most effected by the coming or going of NATO. I might say also that NAm, if it does come to Goose Bay or the military does increase their presence in Goose Bay, not only Naskaupi will benefit from it, but also it will be beneficial in my district. There will be benefits in the district of ME!nihek. TherE! wi 11 be benefits in the dis t ric t of Eagle River and it will also benefit the Island. Mr.

Speaker, I am quite pleased that a good friend of rnine "is in the gallery today. He is a businessman from rny district whom I thin k co u 1 d pro b a b l.y be n e fit if No. 17 1~919

NATO were to go in Goose Bay. At the same time, I think governments have to be aware of the environment, wildlife and the health of the people which has been addressed. I found the Leader of the NDP astonishing. I know, Mr. Speaker, I am not allowed to call a person a liar and I would withdraw the word, but I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, that if ever I can go as close as I can go to saying that the hon. member for Menihek does, in my opinion, go as close to not telling the truth then, Mr. Speaker, I believe I could be correct in saying that.

Let me go back a few days to when the hon. member made a trip to Happy Valley - Goose Bay. When he got up there he prepared a nineteen page report. Let me tell you what he done with this report. He took it down to the Public Library in Goose Bay and prE!Sented it as a book. He sort of camouflaged it and hoodwinked the staff in the library. On the pl~ne going to Goose Bay last week I spoke to the person in charge of i:he libraries in Newfoundland and Labrador and he is . concerned that this paper was allowed to be in the library.

He is concerned that i:he hon. member, a member of assumably some intelligence, would take a paper like this and put it in a public library of the Province. Mr. Speaker, the hon. member should be ashamed to do such a thing. Then, on top of that, Mr. Speaker, I will not take the time to go through the whole list here, but on top of that · he does not tell the truth. He · said he met with the PSAC but that is not the truth. That is a downright lie. The hon. mE!mber met with a member L920 March 24, 1987 Vol XL of the NDP Party who attended thE! national convention in Montreal. That is who he met with . So, Mr.

Speaker, the hon . gentleman is coming in here, trying to give us sob stories and he is not telling ·the truth. If he can take a side on an issue, surely goodness he can stand by the issue. Last June he came in and supported the NATO base af l:e r an eight hour debate, I think it was. He supported NATO going in to Goose Bay and now he decides he does not want to.

How would the hon. 91?.ntleman FE!!~l if the member for Naskaupi, myself or the member for Eagle River decided to go into Labrador City - Wabush and say, we do not want the Iron Ore Company here in Labrador City - Wabush because they are polluting the atmosphere? What would he say in this House? Mr.

Speaker, if it ts u.Jil:hin UlE! rules of the House but I would like to ask, and you can probably rule on it. in due course, but it. is possible after I am finished, I am supposed to close . off thE! debate, that you, Sir, in your good wisdom can wait until the two han. gentleman poke their noses into the doors and then call for a vote and see whai: happens? If we can only do that, Mr. Speake:~r, but then again, we would have to chain them on because here they are against Newfoundland and Labrador gainfully employing people. Mr. Speaker, yesterday the young man from St. John 1 s East (Mr.

Long) spoke, and I know hE! is within hearing distance because there are speakers through the offices, the young man from St. John 1 s East yesterday, a young fellow that in order to go to Labrador probably would . not even No. 17 R920

know which plane he has to go on. He does not know how to get up there. MR. BAIRD: He was never outside the overpass. MR. WARREN: As my han. colleague says, the only way he went outside the overpass was probably going to Montreal, Toronto or somewhere like that, but he was never in Labrador in his life. Here this young gentleman comes in and the first thing he says is nobody in Torngat Mountains wants NATO to go ahead. Ther:r he starts quoting. I rnu s t say that the quotes that he took from William Anderson the Third, and the quote that he made from Gary Mitchell, showed concerns.

However, the concerns were over what John Crosbie said in Goose Bay. I was there. I was concerned too with the attitude of John Crosbie in Goose Bay . Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. R. Aylward) was there, and we were concerned abou ·t the comments that Mr. Crosbie made. He was told so. Mr. Speaker, these kinds of things we can agree with. But I cannot agree with the han. member for St. John 1 s East when he gets up and says, "Nobody in Torngat Mountains wants NATO." I have received a total, Mr.

Speaker, in my nine years - and you can go through my files -- of one lett.er from one Inuit person in my district who told me that they do not want NATO to go ahead. That is the only letter that I have received, from one individual gentleman who is completely opposed to NATO. Mr .. Speaker, yestE!rday the han. L921 March 24, 1987 Vol XL gentleman quoted from three individual people. Now, the hon. gentleman did not say that therE! were twenty-eight interveners on the Coa~t. There were twenty-eight and he only quoted from three. What about thE! other twenty-five? Why did he not quote from the other twenty-five?

My friends, the hon. gentleman is not doing his homework. The other evening I was reading from Readers Digest, a quote from Robert Lucas, I thtnk, which will be most appropriate for thE! two gentlemen from St. John 1 s East . It says, 1 Have you hE!ard about the man who was arrested for running through a wheat field? 1 The comment was, 1 He was charged with going against the grain. 1 I must say that the two han. gentlemen from St. John 1 s Eas ·t and from Menihek are de!fini tely going against the grain and going against their own constituents. I could tell you, Mr.

Speaker, and the han. the Preside!nt of Treasury Board, (Mr. Windsor), who u..Jas in Labrador City this past weekend, that I will do my best, I will do · what I can, and likewisE! all colleagues over here, and likewise, I am sure, the! colleagues opposite to me now, so that everyone knows the the way member for Menihek is flip-flopping. He does not deserve to represent people in this Province. Mr.

Speaker, it is interesting, on the radio and television last night - I may not be quoting him word for word - he did say something to the effect that they are not going to makE! a decision until .the party makes a decision. They are not going. to vote until the caucus makes a decision. Furthermore, he said, 11 If I do not No. 17 R921

agree with it, I will have to resign. 11 I hope the hon. member for Menihek is ·held .up to what he said last night on television . Because if he does, I have a funny feeling that the hon. gentleman is calling a press ~onference in Menihek now and resigning. I think that might be one of the reasons why the hon. member has gone to Menihek. Last night on television he said that if we do not agree, he is going to have to resign. His conscience may have bothered him yesterday, you see.

His conscience may have bothered him to the point, if he is a rE!ally honest individual, that he went to his dtstrict, which is the right thing for an honourabh! member to do, and probably announced his resignation. MR. DINN: Do not be so foolish. MR. WARREN: Well, it is possible. My hon. colleague here, the Minister of Mines (Mr. Dinn) should realize that we all have a conscience. MR . MITCHELL : His skin is too thick . MR. WARREN: No, I would like to give the hon. member the benefit of the doubt. Now, if he turns up in the House tomorrow or the next day, then we know th ·at - surely goodness, Mr.

Speaker, you must realize too - he does not have a conscience then, if he comes into the .House again after what he said on television last night and after what he ·said yesterday. The man 1 s conscience cannot allow him to represent the people, Mr. Speaker. He was elected by 2,000 vot~s, and L922 March 24, 1987 Vol .XL those 2, 000 people who voted for the han. gentleman, I would venture to say, 80 per cent of them are in the work force trying to maintain their familiE!S.

HE!rE! is the gentleman saying, 1 Look, we do not want any more jobs up here. 1 So the han. gentleman has to clear his conscience once and for all, Mr. Speaker. I am not going to take up any more time because I think we have said enough. However, Mr. Speaker, I am going to rE! commend to th e Public Library Board th1~ rebuttal to the member for Menihek 1 s paper which he put in the public Library Board, which I did not think V.Jas fair. I think it was disgrac1:lFul for it to be there.

I am going to recommend now, seeing that this was allowed to go in there, . that a report on an investigation of low level flying and its ~ffect on the Native peoples of Labrad ·or by l:he Mokami Project Group, Happy Valley - Goose Bay, Labrador, on March 1'7 go in. I will table this copy, Mr. Speaker. I am going t:o write to the Public Library Board in Happy Valley - Goose Bay, and I am sure my hon. colleaguE! will do the same, and ask to have this in there too where the people can also read and show that the han. memb~r for Menihek has not been telling the truth. Mr. Speaker, it is VE!ry interesting.

The Inuit have said that there were twenty-eight complaints registered against low flying and against the NATO people. The member for Menihek - I cannot call him by his first name, God forbid! - as ked them to document proof. Up to to 'day, there is one instance, and the p.ilot of that particular aircraft that was close to Nain is presently grounded because he disobeyed the rules. No. 17 R922

Now, Mr. Speaker, I have to go back. I think this is VE!ry, very interesting. . I have to quote this. The han. member said he mE:~t with the Ministerial Association. Now I am not all in favour of the Ministerial Associa~ion in Happy Valley - Goose Bay. I must say that some of their comments have not been in the best interests of the people of Labrador. MR. TULK: You should not mix religion and the state anyway. MR. WARREN : Mr. Speaker, let me say to the han. member for Fogo (Mr . Tulk) - here I will quote - 11 Mr. Fenwick met with Father Roache. 11 Now, who is Father .Roache?

From the front page of the paper today, I understand he is one of the people who has a warrant for his arrest issued. Mr. Speaker, who E!lse did hE! mee!t with? MR. TULK : What was he doing? MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. I understand he was over in the Mealy Mountains where there were some Caribou being killed illegally. Now, I do not know if the han. gentleman was involved in that or not, but I understand that he has been over in the Mealy Mountains. What he was doing over there, I have no idea. Now, who else did he meet with? Father McKenna is the Roman Catholic Priest for the Canadian Armed Forces.

Although a member of the Ministerial Association, he did not attend to represent their views. Now, those are the two gentlemen that the ho.n. member met L923 March 24, 1987 Vol XL with in Goose Bay. There are nine clergy, I think, on the Ministerial Association. He met with those two. Then he comes back and says he met with the Ministerial Association and neither one of them expressed their views. So, Mr. Speaker, it is lies, lies, lies, in this paper. MR. DAWE: Now, do not get carried away. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry. Yes, I withdraw those words, lies, l:iE!S, lies.

I say they are untruths, untruths, and untruths. Mr. Speaker, before I c1ose I want to go on record in support of this resolution. This resolution is good for Labrador. It is good for rny district. It is goo·d for all districts. It is good for the Island. And for the gaLl of the han. the member to ev1?.r come into this House again and ask a question about jobs - MR. GILBERT: Where did he send them? MR. WARREN: The two han. members from the ND P party - MR. TULK: You cannot be sure because you do not know where the han. the member for Menihek is. We know that the member for St. John's East is against it.

I will tell you what, they have a split in that cacus, flip and flop. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I must ·say to the hon. the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) that there is only two th?.t can split . I must say, it is better to see two split in public than fifteen split. No. 17 R923

Mr. Speaker, I would hope that the hon. gentlemen opposite will not accept either one of those two members in their party. I would hope that those two members will not get into the hon. gentleman 1 s party. MR. TULK: If they did I would change parties. MR . WARREN: Anyhow, Mr. SpeakE !r, the boys are getting me carried away. I want to close by saying I support the resolution and I believe, Mr. Speaker, I beg .of you, Sir, if it is in your will and power to do so, you may have to check with Beauchesne, could you kindly, before you call the question, perhaps defer it until the two hon. members from St.

John 1 s East and Menihek are in the House. Thank you. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Minister of Fares t, Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS : Mr. Speaker, the hon. member this is just on a point of order, I guess - for Torngat Mountains (Mr .. Warren) makes a very wise sugges ·tion, in the opinion of members on this side. I would like to propose, it would probably require some kind of unanimous agreement from both sides, that we reach an agreement that the debate has concluded.

But, because of the fact that there are a number of members not in the House whom we would like to see have the opportunity to vote on this very historic resolution .in this L924 March 24, 1987 Vol XL debate, we would like to agree that the question not be put now, but that it be put at a more appropriate occasion, sometime in the very near future, wheneVE!r that might be. Perhaps, the Opposition House Leader (Mr. Tulk) could speak to that. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo . MR. TULK: I just want to make one comment to the hon. gentleman for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) befor1'.'!

I give unanimous consent. We do agree that we should have this vote when the two hon. gentlemen, let us not say a more appropriate time, when the two hon. gentl~men have either a chance to stand in their seats and go for or against this resolut ion or otherwise walk out of here. Let me say to thE! hon. gentleman that I am amused at l:.he vigour with which he goes at this because I believe in his last life he must have been a wolf or the leader of a wolf pact or something.

But we certainly give him unanimous consent that we will conclude debate at this time ·and that we will have the resolution put when the two hon. genth!lnen cannot run away from the place. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! It is agreed that the debate is concluded and that this motion will 'be put to a uotE! at a later date . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Agreed . No. 17 R924

MR. SIMMS : Motion 2, Mr. Speaker . On motion that the HouSE! resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. Committee of the Whole MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): Order, please! The han. the member for Naskaupi . MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Chairman .

I would like to take an opportunity to make a comment, which has no real relationship to the debate on granting of supply, to thank the government side 1 of course, for their recent support for bringing forward the resolution a second time, or a modified version of the resolution, because it rE!lates so closely to my district and certainly relates to the economics of our Province. I would also like to thank the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr.

Warren) who had a noqntime function today, a very nice lunch indeed, which featured food items from our region of the Province and other parts . of the Province, and I thank him very much for inviting me to attend. It was a great pleasure to be there. And even though it was, I suppose, a political function, I was there purely as a colleague from Labrador and the i nvi tat ion was given and ac c epi:ed in the same light. So I just want to make mention of that .

Looking back over some of the comments made in the debate on the granting of supply, I made some L92S March 24, 1987 Vol XL reference to the fact that generally speaking, by precedent and by tradition, members of this House will take advantage of the opportunities afforded in the debatE! on supply and the question of supply to make some points, either from a political point of view as an Opposition or for regional points relating to their own particular districts. And I did this and I had the opportunity to make some special references l:o the Minister of Finance and to make a particular point.

I US(~d an analogy which related to him as part of the human body, l:he prostate gland of the human body ·, which is very similar to the Finance Minister of any government, not just this government. And in reading it over I realize that the point lAJas probably made more solidly than I even had anticipated in the filnst case. And I am sure that the minister was not insulted by being likene!d to a prostate gland. In fact, there are some very good things about a prostate gland, and he could be proud of that kind of a reference.

So I am sure he took it in thE! light I intended, and the points with reference to our suggested reduction in the retail sales i:ax from the present exorbitant 12 per cent down to a much more palatable 10 per cent, which would be in the best interest of the people of this Province, of Newfoundland and Labrador, and would indeed, :in my opinion and the opinion of many, and certainly in "the opinion of the Liberal Party would stimulate! ·the econom~ in the sense tha where you do not have the revenue on the individual items volume sales will increase your overall revenue .

That is a precept and a premise of the Liberal Party which we have been promoting for the last couple No. 17 R925

of years. On some of the other issues, of course, that relate to just exactly how a particular administration looks after the finances of our Province, what they do with the money - and that is what the granting of Interim Supply is all about, to pay the bills that they have incurred you gE!t into considerations about perhaps regional concerns, and you can think of a number up our way.

For example, when you talk about the development of certain fishery resourCE!S, the!re has bE!en probably some attention paid to the potential of inland Labrador waters, and ministers and members who were here are aware of what I am talking about. I am talking about the attempt over a period of years, through funding and so on, to cre!ate and develop a whitefish industry in the Lobstick Lake area; Now that has never come about. And there has been some interest, but to a much less degree, with respect to the potential for a smelt fishery, or even a rock cod fishery in th~ Lake Melville area.

I would like to see some greater level of attention focused on the pos s ibi 1 i ties or the potential of developing a commercial smelt fishery in the Lake Melville area, with some direct benefits, I would suggest, for example, the community of North West River, where a harvesting and processing facility . could be set up which would benefit the area generally. My understanding is that an adequate market has be~n established, or the market is available for smelt; probably more than can be harvested. So there seems to be no shortage of demand.

The question is, how can we harvest the supply to meet that L926 March 2 4, 19 8 7 Vol XL demand. I would like to see some attention addressed to that, as one example. But as you get into your own region, you consider that there are many things that need attention, as they do in other parts of the Province. I would like to thank the Minister responsible for Housing (Mr. Dinn), who is just outside here now, for some of the comments he has been making, some of t:he actions he has been taklng lately with respect to the assessment of housing needs in this Province, which I support.

I believe it is something that shouJ.d bE! · done. The minister will conftrrn, of course, that we do have quite a bit of correspondence between us with respect to the needs of my particular district. The minister is also aware that this week, on Friday, the Melville Native Housing Association, based in Happy Valley - Goose Bay, wi.ll be having their annual meeting and will be officially opening the eight units, which we spoke about earlier, for which funding has been received. I am going to bE! attending that. I am not sure if the minister is, but certainly his officials will be there from NLHC.

I think it is a significant step in that the Happy Valley - GOOSE! Bay area, Naskaupi district, was fortunate enough to obtain a totaJ. of twenty-six units altogether. Ten of those wiJ.l be connected with the senior citizens 1 horne, eight through the Newfoundland and Labrador H~using Corporation itself, and eight through the Melv{lle Native Housing Association. So we haVE! donE! fairly well. However, the minister will also confirm, from the reams of correspondent~:.~ we have generated back and forth between each other on the subj eel: No. 17 R926

of an inadequate supply of housing, that much more has to be done . I thank . .him and commend h irn for the comments and the actions he has taken to date, and as sure him that I will continue to press, as a member of this House, through the Minister responsible for Housing, for the ongoing consideration of what the needs might be in the future.

With respect to NATO - and that seems to relate to almost everything in Labrador - the increased demand that NATO and the spinoffs of NATO will create on the housing supply will be quite signiftcant - stupendous, p•=:!rhaps, if all the employment figures come about as we project they might . That will be of concern to me, it will be of concern to the people there, and certainly of ·concern to the Minister responsible for Housing. I suggest to him that a very, very close look and some projections wilJ. have to be made in the very near future as to what the demands might be and how we can supply that demand.

Within the scope of infrastructure in my district, the main things that seem to be of concern to the people of Churchill Falls, for example, is the fact that there is an inadequate transportation system. When I say that. I mean a comprehensive transportation system. They are subject to two commercial flights a week only, ·and a road that is a tote road at best in the Summer, but maintained, I suppose, to the limit of the . funds available by Transportation, which will eventually be a pa·rt of the Trans-Labrador Highway.

I would now like to make a suggestion, which I will follow up with some corre~pondence with L92'7 March 24-, 1987 Vol XL respect to that road and put it on the record that I suggest consideration should be given to having crews of inmates from thE! correctional centers in our Province, particularly institutions which may not have developed land based rehabilitation activity or activities for the inmates, as· long as it does not conflict with private entrepreneurs, do some of the brush clearing and some of the improvements on that r~ad that can be done by a small crew of fifteen or twenty people, perhaps, on a regular basis.

We could set up some sort of a road camp system with the proper security. I think that is worth considering be c au s E! ,

whereas funding may not be readily available to improve thE! road between Happy Valley - Goose Bay and Churchill Falls, certainly there are crews, made up from t:he inmates of the corrE!ctional centE!r in Labrador, willing to go out and do some brush clearing. One of the problems on the Happy Valley - GooSE:1 Bay end of the road is · that it has grown in over the years and there has been no real concentration of effort to cutting · back the brush and increasing visability and removing the safety hazards there.

So I would make that suggestion that, in considering the expenditure of funding on a way to get out of that bind, an idea might be to consider that sort of a proposal . I will follow that suggestion up with some c6rrespondence t~ the various ministers who might be involved. Could I ask, Mr. Chairman, how much time do I have? MR. CKAIRMAN : The hon. the member's time is up. No. 17 R927

MR. KELLAND: Sorry I mentioned Chairman, but. ·I will again. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. KELLAND: Do I have leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. CHAIRMAN: it, address Mr. it By leave, the hon. the me!mber for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: If you promise withdraw when I part, okay. you will not start the next I know that the hon. members across, as I said, when I made the analogy last week with referenc~ to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), they took it in good spirits, so I was thinking about then breaking the anatomy down into several important parts and doing analogies on other members opposite.

Unfortunately, I would prefer if the various members were present at the time. For example, following the exchange F~iday between myself and the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan), I really wanted to get on my feet and do an analogy on him and a certain part of the anatomy. All I was probably going to say is that he does resemble a certain part of the anatomy and it must be damn lonely back there. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Chairman, if he is going to speak he has got to be relevant. MR.

KELLAND: This is very relevant because is unfortunate the member it for L928 March 24; 1987 Vol XL Bonavi s ta South, position he is, has a lot of crap, and analogy is a propos, being in the to put up w-.i. th therefore the I would say. Do you accept those parliame:~ntary phrases, Mr. Chairman? Anyway, I will not go on with that.

It does strike me, when we are talking about the expenditure of money, that we do have an interesting situation in Newfoundland where we have an administration which, they say, ts dedicated to promoting Newfoundland and Labrador and giving every possible opportunity to Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. Still, occasionalJ.y we find our governmE!nt in a position which must be extremely difficult to defend.

I am thinking of a subject which has come up· in the House a number of different times and may be give you a little bit of a possible scene that may have taken place some time ago when the hon. the Premier of this ProvinCE! went up to Alberta, and the conversation could have possibly gonE! something like this, 11How1 s she goin 1, Peter, b 1 y? Lard dyJ..n 1 re!even 1 11 - and out with the hand, because he is very good at that sort of thing MR. DECKER: Who is? MR. KELLAND: That is the hon. the Premier.

And the former Premier of AlbE!rta looked at him kind of a little askance, and says, 11Yes, · of course, Brian, Lard dyin1 reE!Ven1, certainly, I agree. 11 And they shook hands and they made some kind of an arrangemE!nt. The hon. the Premier said, 11Now, Pete!r, boy, I will give you $40,000 -I No. 17 R928

got all kinds of it down here, do not pay no attention to what the media tells .you - right here, $40,000 I got for you, and all you got to do is give us a bit of advice from your long experience. 11 MR. TULK: Who is t;hat? MR. KELLAND: No, no. This is Premier is talking now. the hon. the now. Hal]g on 11 I got $40,000 and all you got to do is give us a little bit of advice and write four reports a year. The Liberals are too dumb to know whether or not we get the reports. What difference do it make anyway, hey, Pete, boy? 11 MR. DECKER: Yes, nobody will ever see them. MR. TOBIN: That is right. bright. MR.

KELLAND: You are not very Hang on now. This is your Premier talking. He is going to .say those · ·things about us anyway. He is saying, 11 Well, you have to ignore the other party in the House because they might agree with me today and disagree tomorrow, see, Pete, 11 says our han. Premier. So, anyway, when the conversation was over and the deal was made, the han. the Premier came back in the House and said, 1 With a few expenses, for thE! mere sum of $40,000, we got · the unlimited expertise of Peter Lougheed, 1 who just, coi -ncidentally, happens to be a Tory buddy.

Let us face it, patronage! 11 I got him for $40,000 and a few expenses. 11 Of courSE!, naturally, the Opposition all jumped to their L929 March 24, 1987 Vol XL feet and howled. Why not! Because $40,000 undefined expenses was dough. would they and a fE!W a 1ot of Anyway, the han. the Premier weathered the storm here in our House of Assembly and I visualized Peter Lougheed back in his board room talking to his buddies sometime later, in fact in more recent times, when other monies, considerable monies had gone to the firm of which Mr. Lougheed is a partner, a senior member.

He was in his board room saying, 1 Now, fc?.llows, every time buddy from Newfoundland comes up here, our friend, he always sec?.ms to say things like, 1 Lard dyin 1 reevin 1 , b 1 y 1 , and, 1 me son 1 and stuff like that which seems to work in thE! outports of Newfou~dland because they gave him a mandate thE! last time he did this. So Lougheed said, 1 When he comes up here, anytime you see him, anytime you shake hands with him and he is about to say l:o you, 1 Lard dyin reevin, how 1 s she goin 1 me son.

I am a Newfoundlander and have all kinds of money for you, 1 I charge you right now, my colleaguc?.s, · because it is important to -our future, you stick out your hand and shake hands with those Newfoundlanders and you say, 1 Lard dyin reevin 1 , too. You do not have to know what it means, bu{: . it seems to me that every time we say it we get something like a $500,000 of Newfie money, and why would we not take it. 11 That is probably what happened in board rooms up in Alberta. Mr. Chairman, there are a number of different things I would like to talk about but I am willing to sit down.

I thank the members opposite for the 1eave they gave?. me. I am sure if they knew what I was going to say they would not No. 17 R929

have given it, but that is neither here nor there. I sit down now s ti 11 with the opportunity, a couple of times in the future, hopefully get the opportunity to rebut comments by whoever is left on the government side over there. Now that the hon. member for St. John 1 s East (Mr. Long) is back in the House, he may want to contribute something and take his traditional two positions on the question. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. DINN Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Housing. MR. DINN: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to join in the debate this afternoon on supply just to point out a few things to thE! hon. member. I was not going to speak, but the hon. member talked about the quality of the work done by former Premier Lougheed of Alberta and the price of $40,000. I know he would not be aware, because he has not been around in politics that long, for example, that in former times $40,000 was not a lot of money.

Twenty years ago, I remember, for example, one gentleman who used to operate in this Province, his name was Doyle, and in one fell swoop he was g i v e n $ 11 7 m i 11 ion to t a k e off to Europe and parlay a linerboard mill.

The hon. member would not remember that, of course, I know he would not remember that anything like that happened in this Province, that an Order-in-Council equivalent to $117 million was just passed over to one man to parlay a linerboard mill, to go over and see if he could borrow the rest and build a L930 March 24, 1987 Uol XL linerboard mill in a place where studies proved at that time it could not work. The hon. member would not know about that becauSE! he has not been involved in politics that long.

Nor would he:1 know that in building a refinE!ry at Corne By Chance another hon. g e n t 1 e rna n was not on 1 y g i v e n ·the monies to build a rE!finery therE! but every single dollar in that development was guaranteed by a former administration that he would not know about because he has not been around the Province that long, hE! has not bE!en involved in politics that long. And why would he know about it? It wo u 1 d not be p o s sib 1 e for hi 1n to know about it. He would not know, for ex a rn p 1 e , t h a t in tho s 1::> times, if that deal on just thE!

Corne By Chance refinery alone were not renegotiated -the horr. member for Twillingate (Mr. W. Carter) knows what I am talking about, but the han. member for Nas kaupi (Mr. Kelland) may not know -that this Province probably -it would never have gone bankrupt, but this Province would have been on the hook, as the hon. TnE!mbE!r fot~ Twillingate knows to be true, For $600 million. Not $40,000 or $400,000 or $4 million or $40 million. but this Province would have been on the hook, if that deal on the Come By Chance refinery had not been renegotiated, for $600 million. Now, Mr.

Chairman, the han. member, before he gEd:s up to speak, should learn a . little something of the history of the politics of Newfoundland. He talks about $'~0,000 and speaks in awe of this amount of money going out to one individual, an individual, I might add, who is doing a great job with respect: to the negotiations on offshore, in my opinion, humble as it might No. 17 R930

be. But when he talks about this $40,000 that we are paying a former Premier- · in Canada for his assistance with respect to oil negotiations, financial regimes for negotiations, we on this side think that that is money well spent . But it does not compare, it is a flash in the pan in the centuries of time of Newfoundland, when we consider the other things that have happened to this Province. Mr. Chairman, I hope that this Province never signs a deal on the offshore if it does not benefit the people of this Province, not only now but the hon . member's children and his children's children.

I hope that I am never a party to anyone negotiating a deal similar to - we all use it as an example - the Upper Churchill one on the offshore. Because, Mr. Chairman, I can tell my colleagues on this side and all members of this House, that I will not be on this side of the House for one minute, sixty seconds, after ink goes to paper, because it is too important to the people of this Province. Now we can talk about the $40,000 if you want and that is what this is all about. We are talking about Interim Supply, we are talking about the finances of the Province, we are talking about how monies are spent.

It is one that I will have no trouble in taking, none whatsoever. And, Mr. Chairman, I have no trouble in supporting on this side, even though it is difficult, even though we are wreacking our brains over the past weeks and months and, as a matter of fact, years, we have been on an austerity programme in this Province, ever since I have· been .in politics, certainly, since 1975 and, Mr. L931 March 2 4, 19 8 7 Vol XL Chairman, it still becomes almost an unmanageable situation to put the finances of this Province together for another year. Every year we do the same thing.

We have to have hospitals and we have to have hospital beds, we have to have senior citizens' homes, we have to have chronic care, we have to have schools, and we have every minister in this government on a daily basis crying for more. I am no lE!SS. TherE! is not a day goes by or a year go1:>.s by or a week goes by that I am not crying for more money for housing. Hope Brook has a gold mine . When that was going in I lAJas involved in the negotiations from day one, almost, as MinistE!r of Mines. Hon. members may not know it, but that is not the big bonanza that it may appear to be.

Consider that you scoop out a ton ·of earth, put it into a heap leach for processing, and what you gE!t out of that one ton of earth is . 18 of an ounce of gold. MR. W. CARTER: Only . 18? MR . DINN: Only . 18 of an ounce. That is approximately, now. That is not to say that you do not hit bett:er zones or it is not more prevalE!nt in one area than another, but on an average basis you are talking about . 18 of an ounce of gold for one ton of earth processed.

So I spoke to the gentlemE:1n when they ca~e in and they told us about what they were about, what they had identified at that point in time, and what they figured they needed to get this project into operation . They - said, 'Minister, if we have to operate by diesel, if we have to put our No. 17 R931

own diesel in there, it may not be a go project. If we go to any other province in Canada 1 - they have operations in Quebec and in Ontario - 1 the government generally provides the power. That is a part of the infrastructure that we expect would be normal. 1 So we loo~ed at that and in order to put a line in from Bottom Brook to Burgeo, and then a spur . line in, the amount that we could attribute to that development would be about $19.5 million. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The han. the minister 1 s time is up. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave! MR. DINN: I will just finish that off . MR. CHAIRMAN: By leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS : By l.eave! - MR. CHAIRMAN : By leave! MR. DINN: So if one considers what we are trying to deal with as a Province, and the monies that are so scarce here, we talked about that, I guess, for weeks, . as other things were happening and the assessment was going on with the project and so on, but they needed that spur line, they needed a road and they needed a wharf .

It is $150 million project and they needed so much for processing equipment out there so they went. to DIRE - not DI~EE now, but DIRE - and DRIE had a programme of providing 30 per cent of -the dollars required for any new processing equipment in L932 March 24-, 1987 Vol XL any province, which meant that DIRE could come up with $14- m.illion out of the $150 million. We provided the power and $6 million. The reason for the $6 million was for the spur line and other things that they needed to put the project together, the road and the wharf and so on. Mr.

Chairman, if han. members in the House only knew what we went through to wrench that money for that project because of the other needs that we have in the Province. I have to compliment, for example, the people who supported it - everybody supported it eventually obviously - but the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), who has a terrific burden to put together a budget for this Province, but he carne to the aid of the party and supported the project, and so on, as it went along the road. And finally i l: was approved and it is on its way now. Mr.

Chairman, I hope it is 'c.'l success because I think it is one of five or six gold mines that: we could have in this Province OVE!r the next ten years, and I will speak a little further on that a· little later on . But I do not have to think about it a lot because I have a lo t of information as to what is going on exploration-wise in the Province. B u t I wi 11 get onto i t a 1 itt l E! later on because I know other hon. members want to speak. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Twillingate . MR. W. CARTER : Mr.

Chairman, I assure friend that I am not speak at length E!XCept No. 17 my hon. going to to make a R932

few brief references to some comments made by my friend, the member for -Pleasantville (Mr. Dinn). I believe it was C. D. Howe, onetime Minister of Trade and Commerce, I believe in the St. Laurent or the Pears9n Government, in referring to an expenditure, it might have been during the great pipeline debate, said that it is only a million dollars. The hon. minister I think lived to regret having made that statement.

Now, the minister made a statement a moment ago that I suspect he is going to live to regret having made, when he, in defending the actions of his government in making a rather large payment to the former Premier of Alberta, Mr. Peter Lougheed - MR. PEACH: Forty thousand dollars. MR. W. CARTER: Four hundred thousand dollars, Mr. Chairman, is the amount, not $40,000. It was intended to be $40,000, and that is the amount that we were led to believe would be made payable to the former p.rernier, but when the special warrants were issued then we saw the real story.

Indeed, an amount of $400,000 had bE!en paid to the former Premier•s law firm. The Minister of Mines (Mr. Dinn) referred to that as a flash in the pan . Now, I can tell the hon. member, yes, I say, some flash and some pan, because I tell you, Mr. _ Chairman, there are people in my district today who would find a lot of better uses to put that $400,000 to than sending it to the former Premier of Alberta. He mentioned gold mines . In fact, I am rather interested in some of the figures he mentioned, . 18 L933 March 24, 1987 Vol XL ounce per ton of earth. It is a fascinating business. The minister, Mr.

Chairman, at great length talked about how the government were pressed in order to find money to build roads to this gold mine and to augment funds that were made available to the government for its development by DRIE. I would like to remind the minister, Mr. Chairman, that we have a great many gold mines in this Province. These mines maybe do not produce gold, but certain1y in my district they produce a commodity that is almost as valuable as gold, and that is fish. We have fish plants in communities in my district, Mr. Chairman, where the roads are unfit to travel over.

We have fish being trucked over pothole-ridden roads that do vr:.~l~y little for the quality of that product. Despite our pleas to l:he government for a~sistance to upgrade and pave those roads, l:he situation remains the same. So I would like to remind the Minister of Mines that maybe while they are waiting to develop new gold mines that produce . 18 ounce per ton, they should pay a 1 t t t]_e more attention to some of the real gold mines that we have in this Province now that are suffering because of their indifference towards the problems that beset those fish plants. Mr.

Chairman, the minister, in his comments the other day - I believe it was during the same debatE! gave an account of the things that are happE!ning in his district. WE! all know that Pleasantville district is a city district. It is an urban district in every sense of the word. The minister took some pride in announcing No. 17 R933

and I do riot blame the minister - that the government, up to that point, had sp.ent '$5. 5 million, I think he said last year, on road construction in the Pleasantville district, a district, I might add, that the city council is responsible for, by and large, when it comes to building and maintaining roads and snow clearing and looking after other infrastructure. I would not say there has been $5 .5 million spent on the whole Northeast Coast of this Province in the past three or four years, certainly not in my district.

Last year, in fact, while the minister was boasting of the fact that his urban district has received $5.5 million for road construction, there was not 5.5 dollars spent on new roads in Twillingate district. Like I said a momen~ ago, a lot of these roads that n~ed upgrading and paving are the roads over which fish has to be hauled to market and to the processing plants in Twillingate and Comfort Cove and other places from the small outlying areas in which there are small filleting operations. Mr. Chairman, it is quite obvious that a lot needs to be done.

We listened to the members opposite talk about the payments of huge sums of money to Peter Lougheed and othe,rs. Again I would like to remind the Minister of Health (Dr. Twomey), if he were here, that the people of Twillingate district are awaiting, for example, for a chronic care home for the past number of years. In fact they have been promised a chronic care facility now for the past four or five years. I was rather the question interested today in put to him by my L934 March 24, 1987 Vol XL colleague from the Strait of Belle Isle concerning senior citizens' homes, boarding houses. His Honour recognized me.

I inte,ndE!d to ask him a question. as to what plans were unfolding, for example, for chronic care facilities in the Province. We all know that therE! is a great -lack of proper chronic care facilities to accommodate our aged citizens who need that kind of care and accommodation. Twillingate has been promised one now, as I said, for a numbe'r of years. In fact, last year they were told that they were third on the list. Number one, I think, was the Agnes Pratt Home.

That has sinct:.~ been approv,':!d. ~3econd, I think, was thE! horne in Bonavista, and that, too, is now being funded and is about, I believe, ready to start an extension . So I would assume . now that Twillingate is number one on the list. I cannot seem to gelt any kind of a cornrni tment from the minis ter or from the government ai to what their plans are in that regard, but I would certainly ask them to make good on their promise. The promiSE! was madE! in writing, during the last election, · that a chronic care home would bE! provided Twillingate district.

Fishing, of course, on the Northeast Coast of this Province especially, is all-important. We have fish plants on the Northeast Coast that are working at about 25 per cent or 30 per cent of their operating capacity. People employed in those plants are lucky if they can get twelve weeks work a year and get enough stamps to draw unemployment insurance benefits for the Winter. Surt':!ly, something can be done there and must be done. The licence to process fish is not a right, it is a privilege that the Government of Newfoundland, on behalf of thE! No. 17 R934

n people, give these fish plant operators. I am not convinced in my mind that .sufficient effort is being made by the fish processors, certainly the ones on the Northeast Coast, to maximize the potential from the fishing industry in their respective areas. Twillingate, for example, has a large fish processing plant, capable of almost year-round operation. We have a large and well-trained work force in Twillingate, but that plant is lucky to be operating for fifteen weeks of the year.

Now, I believe the government must find ways and means of making sure that these plants are given a longer working period and that the people in them are given an opportunity to earn a decent living, rather than to be working for that ten or twelve weeks work to get enough contributions to collect unemployment insurance benefits. I believe the responsibility, Mr. Speaker, rE!Sts over there. As I s aid , a f i s h p 1 a.n t operator m u s t be given the facts of life, that a licence to operate carries with it some responsibility. And I contend that, in many cases, they are not living up to that responsibility.

I realize that there is a shortage of fish right now. Quotas are limited. But I do believe, Mr. Chairman, that a greater effort must be made by the government to ensure that the fish plants are allowed to stay open for longer periods. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The han. member 1 s time is up. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I will conclude with these few remarks, if you do not mind. L935 March 24, 1987 Vol XL MR. J. CARTER: By leave. MR. W. CARTER: I will not take advantage of by leave.

I was rather intriguc:!d to find the other day that while Newfoundland plants, for example, are going begging, almost, for raw material, the French fishing fleet is given substantial quotas on the South Coast, yet Newfoundlanders who own and operate vessels of all sizes are denied access t:o those fish stocks. What I am saying in effect is that we are allowing the French, for example, access to the fish stocks on the South Coast - not in the so-called disputE!d area, but in the 3 Ps area - while at the same time we are denying access to Newfoundlanders.

Bon a fide f i s her me n i n any o t h c= r part of Newfoundland who operate boats under thirty-five feet have access to the fishing grounds. On the South Coast they do not hi:.'We access, and I say, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout) and the Premier must address that problem and make {:he appropriate representation to Ottawa to eliminate that kind of discrimination. MR . SIMMS: Mr . Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN : The han. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS : Mr. Chairman, with ·a.il due respect to the member for Fogo (Mr. Tul

k) we would be delighted to let him have a few words but the normal practice is back and forth. I will try to say something nice about the hon. member, and that might entice him to get up and attack. I could make some No. 17 R93S

references to the member's outstandtng qualities. He is one who is likely-to be a major force in the decision that the U.beral Party is going to have to make over the next couple of months. He has certainly been an outstanding House Leader for the party, and I wish to announce here today that I will be supporting him for the position of Leader of the Liberal Party of Newfoundland and Labrador, if I get the opportunity. Mr. Chairman, having said that, I tried to keep some notes as members across the way spoke. First was the member for Naskaupi (Mr.

Kelland), who made some reference today to a luncheon held at the Airport Inn that was hosted by the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren), and friends of Torngat Mountains, at which there were -267 people in attendance to hear the Premier speak, among other things. Mr. Chairman, the Premier had the crowd very enthused. I am a bit disappointed the member for St. John's East (Mr. Long) did not show up. I think that is in East Extern, but surely he could have crosSE!d the border. He may have even run into Mikhail Gorbachev on his way, although I think he has passed him now as far as going left is concerned.

In any event, Mr. Chairman, it was an excellent function. The Native people from Labrador, the Inuit people, were there and performed and sang, and it just made for a delightful afternoon. It was a very pleasant thing and I know the member for Naskaupi was sincere when he made a VE!ry positive comment about that. Then the member for Naskaupi, of L936 March 2 4, 19 8 7 Vol XL course, quickly changed his tactics. He startE!d off being very nice and pleasant to everybody -what a nice day it was and what a nice luncheon we had.

I was trying to follow what he was doing, but it t.uas very, vc:!ry difficult; he was trying to play act, I believe, a scenario whE!re the Premier met the former Premier of Alberta, or something, at some conference and talked about the deal, so-called, about the $400,000 that was paid to Lougheed, as he referc'O!s to it. Mr. Chairman, it is unfortunate, but I guess that is the wont of a member not positioned, to giVE! thE! least amount of information on an issue that you possibly can to the public for fear that the public might understand.

The Opposition, as is their wont. want to give the impression to the public that something dastardly had transpired. For the benefit of t:he feli.J people who are here today, they should be aware that this matter· was raisc;!d weeks ago and there were very good explanations given for the cost or the f~E!e that was paid to a firm that Mr. Lougheed is associated with, not to Mr. LougheE!d directly. I think the han. l:he member for Naskaupi sort of skipped over that part.

Of course, it has also beE!n pointe!d out here that the negotiations involving the offshore are very complex issues and require specialized legal LI.Jor k, and I arn told there are none?. in Newfoundland _who specialize in that respect. Now, Mr. Chairman, I also do not want to pass up the opportunity, while I have the floor. to again make some referenCE! to the debatE! we held over the past two days on the NATO resolution. I see the member for St. John's East (Mr. No. 17 R936

Long) managed the House. HE!, MR. TULK: to come back into obviously, heard - I bet if you called a vote he would scuttle out. MR. SIMMS: I have a feeling the han . the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) may very well be right, because he seemed to have scurried out of the House at the earliest opportunity, thinking that we were going to take a vote on the resolution and he would be forced to stand in his place and take a position on that particular issue.

But the han. member will be pleased to know that all other members of this House. from the Liberal Party and from the Conservative Party, were so thoughtful as to defer the vote on the resolution because we would · like the han. member and his leader. his seat mate, to be here and to express, as all of us will have to when the ·vote comes on that resolution, exactly where they stand. But I am afraid they will not, because I gather his leader has been on the air already saying that they are just going to abstain. MR. SIMMONS: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: A point of order, the han. the member for Fortune- Hermitage. MR . SIMMONS: A point of order to my good friend, the member for Grand Falls. I am a dE,gree put out that he so early endorsed another member, who is not his cousin, before I got to him. Apart from that, I rose for another reason, Mr. Chairman. I wanted to give advice to my good friend from Grand Falls through a point of L937 March 24, 1987 Uol XL order. He is about to blow an opportunity to have the NDP votE' for those estimates. Because, you s E!e, we are going to vote against them, maybe, for certain reasons that we will be saying.

But, that aside, we are only going to vote one way. But he can be assured that, if the NDP are consistent, they are going to vote for and against them. So, if I were he, I would take half a loaf and run. At least you have the NDP partly supporting you on a financial matter. MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order, there is no point of order. The han. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS: There was not point of order. Mr. Chairman, but obviously - MR. SIMMONS: A good point. MR.

SIMMS: a very wise bit of advice: There has already been an agreement, an understanding that we will wait until both halVE!S of the NE!W Democratic Party are he,re before we actually - MR. TULK : I understand he is a distant relative of Coaker . MR. SIMMS : Oh, really! Well, I am easy . MR. SIMMONS: God knows you are easy! MR. SIMMS: The han. the member for Fogo is the only candidate I arn awarr~ of who really has aspirations, perhaps. I do not believe the No. 17 R937

member for Fortune -Hermitage (Mr. Simmons) has any further aspirations to lead the Liberal Party, he has been through that. MR. SIMMONS: I have aspirations. MR. SIMMS: He does? Oh, well, in that case I might have to divvy up my support. I wi 11 give fifteen pieces of silver to the member for Fogo and fifteen pieces of silver to the member for Fortune Hermitage. How will that be? MR. HISCOCK: Kee!p your thirty pieces of silver until next election. MR. SIMMS: As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, I have always had a great deal of interest in watching the career of the membe~ for Eagle River (Mr. Hi s c o c k ) .

What has been by-pas s e.d in all of this debate over the last week or so, since the disruption - MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order, the hon. the member for Fogo. MR