Manitoba Hansard — 3 March 1992 (Sitting 21, 35th Legislature, 3rd Session)

35-3-21

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Thir d Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 39-40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLI No. 21 ·1:30 p.m., TUESDAY, MARCH 3,1992 Printed by the Otfloe of the OUMIIs Printer. Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thi rty-Fifth Legislatu re Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACOUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY,Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTIND ALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage Ia Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Ain Aon La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

870 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, March 3, 1992 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Tanya Funk, Gerry V. Martin, Athilee Dube and others requesting the government show its strong commitment to dealing with child abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr.

Speaker,! beg to present the petition of Karen Kulik, Natalie Monkman, Servillena Beltran and others requesting the government show Its strong commitment to dealing with child abuse by restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign. Mr. DaveChomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker,! beg to present the petition of Steven Hay, Randy Maxwell, George Williams and others requesting the government show its strong commitment to dealing with child abuse by restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS BIII 18- The Franchises Act Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr.

Speaker, move, seconded by the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), that Bill 18 , The Franchises Act;

Loi sur les concessions, be introduced and the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Speaker, Manitobans have lost large amounts of money buying franchises in various companies over the last few years, everything from $5,000 for alarm franchises to $8,000 for computer franchises up to $1 00,000 for travel franchises. This bill will do several things. One, it will require the franchise companies to file a prospectus with the province.

It will require that monies paid up front by franchise buyers will be kept in trust until all the promises of the franchise company are made good on, such as advertising and other things. It will provide that franchises would have a protected area, a consistent contract, because that is a major problem in the business. With the consistent contract, there would be consistent requirements for cash investments, guarantees in terms of their equipment, fixtures, royaltie s, fees and other conditions. It is hoped that this bill will address a growing problem in Manitoba. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon, from the Riverside School, thirty Grades 7, 8 and 9 students. They are under the direction of Mr. Tom Wiebe. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for La Vere ndrye (Mr. Sveinson). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon. • (1 335) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Ducks Unlimit ed Head quarters Impact Tourism Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, recently I was listening to a Manitoban who was stating that he and his family, when they were down at the Minnesota State Fair, received a number of pamphlets and material opposing the Ducks Unlimited complex in Oak Hammock Marsh.

It appears to me that, when one starts to look at the list of organizations across Canada and the organizations internationally now that are opposed to this project, which is supported by the provincial Conservatives, incredible organizations like the Sierra Club of Canada, the Sierra Club of the United States, National Audubon Society, we are now seeing a situation where there is an international outcry on this proj ect, which I think will have damaging effects on the Manitoba economy. Mr. Speaker, tourism is one of the largest industries in

871 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 3, 19 92 any province, and it is one of the growing industries of any province. I would ask the Acting Premier: What impact will this growing negative international fight against the Ducks Unlimited complex have? What impact will it have on the thousands of people who rely on tourism in Manitoba, because we are on the wrong side of an international issue? Hon. Glen Cummings (Acting Premier): Mr. Speaker, actually I think the Leader of the Opposition has overlooked the fact that this facility will very likely become a tourist attraction.

Certainly he is overlooking the fact that this marsh has been expanded, that the facility being built there is to provide education, education being one of the key reasons that we can bring people from other areas, people from within the province to look first-hand at the opportunities to, close-up, see the action that is being taken in that marsh and gain an appreciation for the real attributes that we have in that marsh. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, it sounds like the same kind of answers we had on chlorine bleach a couple of months ago from members opposite, total inability to predict the future and therefore to predict the future markets. That is what we see from members opposite in terms of dealing with issues in front of them. Funding Withdrawal Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Acting Premier.

Given the fact that organizations right across Canada, including organizations in provinces adjacent to Manitoba, organizations in states adjacent to Manitoba, international organizations in markets where tourists will come to Manitoba are now opposing this issue in a very, very public way-if one looks at the wire service information, there are international stories against this project every day--1 would ask the Minister of Environment, will he now oppose this project in his cabinet and withdraw the money, because it will not only have a negative impact on our environment, it will also have a much greater impact on our tourism, because it will hurt our reputation, Manitoba in North America?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Acting Premier): Mr. Speaker, again the Leader of the Opposition is wrong. He is trying to spread fear and innuendo regarding this project in the jewel of the marshes of this country. It is pretty obvious to me that he has no appreciation for the fact that people want to be able to have access to view the activities that are going on there. He is overlooking the fact that some 80,000 people per annum visit that marsh today. He is overlooking the fact that this will become a major attraction, a major educational centre.

I think that the type of comments that are coming from the Leader of the Opposition are the very type of comments that drive people away from this province. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the members opposite told us we were fearmongering when we said that we should not proceed with chlorine bleach. Let the records show who was right and who was wrong on predicting the future in this province. It is not the members opposite.

If you look at the list, The Manitoba Naturalists Society, the conservation federation of Canada, Conservation Canada, The Sierra Club, on and on, prestigious independent international organizations are opposing this project. Federal Environmental Assessment Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): A further question to the minister, the Acting Premier. We have seen the recent decision on the Oldman River giving greater requirements for projects to proceed through federal environmental impact studies prior to receiving any funds from the federal go vernment or impacting on any federal jurisdictions.

I would ask the minister, will this project now require, under the Oldman River decision, a federal environmental impact study? If so, will they halt the money while that impact study is proceeding, and furthermore, will he consider halting the total project, given the environmental opposition on this project across North America? * (1 340) Hon. Glen Cummings (Acting Premier): Mr. Speaker, as is his wont, the member will look at the Oldman River ruling fro m an angle and a perspective that he chooses to view it from. The fact is that the requirements are that the federal government make a decision.

The fact is that the number of issues that the federal government have been required to be involved in previously may no longer have the same trigger point that they had before. In relation to this particular project, I think it

March 3, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 872 is rather unlikely, but we will wait to see what the proceedings raise. * (1 340) Conawapa Dam Project Public Utilities Board Referral Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): I have a report commissioned by Hydro on the long- range, demand-side management plans which demonstrate its ability to conserve more than twice as much power as originally thought before the PUB hearings.

The demand-side projections help explain why the need for Conawa pa in the projections was off by some 12 years and why the gov ernment must re- examin e the plans for Conawapa, as it has with Repap. I would ask the Minister of Environment, has he received and reviewed this report which would recommend from an environmental point of view that they would update Hydro's conservation plans and refer the Conawapa project back to the PUB? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Well, Mr. Speaker, the member totally overlooks the range of figures that were provided in front of the Public Utilities Board.

As the ultimate regulator responsible for licensing, I suggest it would be inappropriate for me to comment much beyond that. Ms. Cerllll: Can the Minister of Environment explain why this report, which was tabled on November 2, 19 91 , was not part of the PUB hearings and why this demand-side management study was not done before those hearings, which would have been the environmentally responsible thing to do? Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, the corporation is constantly upgrading its demand, its load and dealing with the conservation side of its responsibilities.

As I have said earlier, I will take the details of the question as notice for the minister responsible. Conawapa Dam Project Public Utilities Board Referral Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): In keeping with the government's constant queries for suggestions, I would like to ask the minister if he will recommend, ba sed on this report that the demand-side management projections give, to develop an incentive program for the senior officials with Hydro so that we can see the implementation of some of the demand-side management programs which will fulfill these projections. Hon.

Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Well, Mr. Speaker, I think the members opposite will have an opportunity, once The Loan Act is tabled in this House, to ask certain questions with respect to the conservatio n programs associated with Manitoba Hydro and indeed their programming over the next year. There is a component, significant component, I might add, that will be directed toward incentives and rebates, and indeed to th e development of the plan. As a matter of fact, today in Treasury board, I had an opportunity to see the global funding that is going to be directed toward conservation efforts.

It is significant, and I can assure the member that she will be happy with that information once it is tabled. Constitutional Issues Bilateral Negotiatio ns - Quebec Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the minister responsible for the Constitution. Yesterday, the Premier (Mr. Film on) indicated that Manitoba must attend the multilateral meetings because, he said, too much had been offered to Quebec, and Manitoba must protect its interest. Well, Mr.

Speaker, the Liberal Party of Manitoba is opposed to this approach because, in our opinion, there is a serious downside. Will the minister tell this House if this government is in favour of bilateral negotiations between Quebec and the Government of Canada, in that bilateral negotiations of this nature with the absent player is the parallel to multilateral negotiations with the remaining nine? Hon. James McCrae (Minister responsible for Constitutional Affairs): Mr. Speaker, th e honourable member will recall the responses made by the Premier to her questions yesterday in regard to this.

She will recall the Premier indeed made the point that Manitoba has a stake in all of this, and for that reason, it would be irresponsible for us not be present at meetings to discuss the future of our country. Among those, of course, is the position Manitoba takes with respect to Senate reform, and we would be concerned about an empty chair around the table, an empty chair where Manitoba ought to be sitting.

873 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA March 3, 19 92 • (1 345) Mrs. Carstalrs: I can only assume, therefore, that this government is quite happy with a bilateral negotiation between Quebec and the Government of Canada, and I want to know if this government actually trusts the Prime Minister to negotiate with Quebec on our behalf without us being present at the table. Mr. McCrae: Of course, it would be our wish that Quebec be a full participant In any discussions about the future of our country, because we believe Quebec has an important place in the future of our country, Mr. Speaker. I do not take the honourable member's

preamble as she would put It, in the sense that I believe firmly that Manitoba as a full player in this Confederation needs to be present at meetings at which important matters are discussed. Aboriginal Representation Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): I think the principle is that we should all be treated equally, and we are not if we enter into bilateral negotiations between the Government of Canada and Quebec or multilateral negotiations where Quebec is not present. Mr.

Speaker, yesterday the aboriginal community indicated their pleasure and their delight at the recognition of the inherent right to self-government in the Dobbie-Beaudoin report. They also raised a very serious concern, and that concern is that there is now going to be discussions about the devolution of powers, that powers will be moving from the provinces to the federal government and from the federal government to the provinces.

Will the constitutional minister tell me if Manitoba will take the lead and insist that the aboriginal leadership be invited to the multilateral discussions, so that there will be no discussion of the devolution of power without their representation? Hon. James McCrae (Minister responsible for Constitutional Affairs): I think that Manitoba has some concerns in these areas as a province that, in population terms, is a smaller province. There are concerns in the Dobbie-Beaudoin proposals for provinces like Manitoba, and that is a good reason for Manitoba also to participate in any future discussions.

Of course, with respect to aboriginal issues, aboriginal issues affecting aboriginal people in this country, it is going to be important to receive the input of aboriginal leadership and ordinary, if I can use that word, aboriginal people across this country. Policing Services Municipal Costs Ms. Ros ann Wowc huk (Swan River) : Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Rural Development. The most important Issue facing towns and municipalities as they prepare their budget for the upcoming year is policing costs.

A committee of urban and rural councillors has been struck to discuss this issue, and they have completed their report in which they made five recommendations of how the issue should be addressed. The minister has had this report since January but has not taken a position. Can the minister provide us with a copy of the report and tell us when he is going to take some action and make some decision on th ese recommendations? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Mr. Speaker, I thank the critic for her question.

I would like to say that I received the Charlie Hill report about a week after I was appointed Minister of Rural Development. At that point in time, the report came to me without the signatures of the participating MAUM or UMM officials, which raises some concerns about whether or not they had completely endorsed the report. As a result, I thought it was only fair that municipalities throughout the province would have some idea as to what was contained in the report. We have now circulated an executive

summary of the report to municipalities, and we have asked for their responses to the options and the recommendations that have been made by the committee that was put together to study policing costs in this province. Once those recommendations or responses are in, Mr. Speaker, we will be in a position then to move forward in terms of implementing some of the report's recommendations. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, one of the difficulties people in rural municipalities and towns face is that this government changes their Minister of Rural Development every session and then-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. • (1 350)

March 3, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 874 Ms. Wowchuk: I would like to ask the minister, if he is not going to take action on this report, will he meet with the committee and councillors and give them some assurance that he is not going to change his mind after they prepare their budgets, which they are doing right now? They do not want to face the same thing they did- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I have met with both executive groups, both UMM and MAUM.

We have discussed this issue, and I think the critic of Rural Development was at a meeting in Brandon when I addressed the issue of policing costs. Certainly there is some concern even within UMM and MAUM about the approach that should be taken, and it is for that reason that we have decided to circulate an executive

summary of the report to all municipalities so that all municipalities in Manitoba, both urban and rural, can indeed respond to the recommendations that have been made in the Charlie Hill report. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, I was at that meeting, and the people were certainly disappointed. If they cann o t take steps on this report, how can this government proceed with a proposal to change policing boundaries? They say they have to consult on one, but they have not consulted with municipalities on changing the boundaries. Have you told municipalities what the impact is going to be? Are they going to have- Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I think the member is just alluding to some of the di fficulties that we face out in Manitoba with regard to policing costs. Not only does the Charlie Hill report address that issue, but indeed the whole concept of police boundaries is an important one. It is a matter that is being dealt with at the present time by not only my department but by the Department of Justice. All municipalities are involved to ensure that there is a resolution that will satisfy most of the municipalities in this province.

Post-Secondary Education Accessibility Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, the concrete results of this government's funding of post-secondary education are that the doors are closing for young Manitobans. In just one faculty at the University of Manitoba, there will be 20 percent fewer students next year, and over 14 0 classes are going to be cut. My question for the Minister of Education and Training is: What programs or plans does she have in place for those students across the province who will now be denied access to university? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, the issue of a university education for Manitobans is of great concern to this government. I will remind the honourable member that we as a government have had to set priorities. We have asked school divisions to set priorities. Universities have also had to set priorities in line with what can be offered within the financial limits. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, what action has the minister taken to deal with the additional20 percent increase in student fees an ticipated at Manitoba universities, which represent yet another step in closing off the economic future for Manitoba families? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Speaker, as the member said in her statement, it is anticipated. We do not yet know the results of the budgets, and we have not tabled our budget in this House at this time. Community Colleges Funding Resto rauon Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, will the minister make the commitment today that she refused to make last week, to restore the more than 1 0 percent that her government cut from community colleges last year and to reopen at least those opportunities for Manitoba students? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, as I said last week in response to the question, the range of training opportunities and educational opportunities for Manitobans are very important to this government, but we will have to wait until our budget is tabled in this House to make any commitments. * (1 355) Health Care System License d Practical Nurses' Role Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. Last week I asked the Minister of Health some questions regarding the future of LPNs in Manitoba.

875 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 3, 19 92 Unfortunately, the minister gave no assurance, and the future of 3,800 LPNs is in real danger. Last week the minister indicated that the unemployment rate for the graduating class of LPNs at St. Boniface was 19 percent. Mr. Speaker, according to the associ ation, there is an unemployment rate of only 1 percent for this particular class. Is the minister going to stand behind his information, or is he going to correct his record and tell the people of Manitoba that this profession is very important for the health care of Manitoba? Hon.

Donald Orchard (Mnlster of Health): Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend raises a very important issue. The information that I provided to the House last week, when this question on the future of LPNs came up, was information that I had about the employment status at graduation from the St. Boniface General Hospital School of Practical Nursing. To the best of my knowledge, that information upon graduation date is correct. There was some concern raised by the impression that that might leave to potential enrolees in future courses of LPN nursing.

Subsequent to that, I have been informed that the associatio n has tracked some 19 of the 22 graduates from the March 1991 graduating class of Practical Nursing at St. Boniface. All19 of those are employed whether it be full time, part time or casual. The three that they cannot locate to complete the 22 graduates may well be out of province. Both pieces of information appear to be correct. Mr. ChHma: Mr. Speaker, can the minister tell us why he stated that he had no knowledge of the recommendation of the board of the St.

Boniface Hospital that they close the LPN program when, according to LPN Association, the deputy minister of the Department of Health was present at the meeting of the 27th of November '91? At that time, the hospital director stated that he will be making their recommendation. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I have never said that I was unaware of that being an issue for discussion at St. Boniface, including at the board level. I have never made that statement. My honourable friend better be a little more accurate.

What I have said, though, and this is-[interjection] I have never said to my honourable friend in answer to any question that I was not aware of the discussion being at St. Boniface. As a matter of fact, yesterday, in answer to the question of the official opposition critic, I said, I know the issue has been discussed at St. Boniface, so do not try to confuse the issue. What has not been presented, Mr. Speaker, to myself and to my deputy minister is any request to close the school, and until they do, I cannot comment around whether they will in fact ask for that to happen or not.

Until I have that request from a hospital, I surely cannot be expected to react to a hypothetical question. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, can the minister tell this House when the decision regarding the moratorium on LPN training at Red River Community College wRI be made, in that the students of Grade 12 who are making a decision for this particular program should know right now and not at the end of May? Mr.

Orchard: I would hope that kind of information can be made available and the moratorium issue at Red River College be resolved when government receives the response back from our managers of the health care system, both on the acute care side and the long-term care side, to the survey that we initiated, wherein we are asking those employers of nurses in the institutions of Manitoba: What is your current staffing mix of nurse's aides, LPNs, RPNs, RNs and BNs, and what do you project that nursing makeup of professional disciplines to be five years from now? The purpose, Mr.

Speaker, Is to exactly remove the uncertainty around moratoriums at Red River Community College, rumours around St. Boniface General Hospital, so we can provide an assured future in a nursing profession for those desirous of undertaking it. Rent Regulations Rollbacks Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Tenants in Winnipeg look to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs to protect them from rent increases which cannot be justified. Winnipeg landlords are being granted rent increases based on property tax assessments and subsequently having those assessments appealed successfully, and so their expenses go down.

What is the minister responsible for the Rent Regulation Bureau doing to ensure that increases which cannot be justified are rolled back and the savings passed on to the tenants? *

(1400) March 3, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 876 Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, the way in which the policy works is this: The landlord gets an approval of, say, 5 percent because he has had a tax increase. The tenant can appeal that. The bureau can approve that. If the tenant feels it is too high, the tenant can appeal. If, during the course of that appeal, the landlord has his taxes reassessed and put down, then the department at that time has the right to move the rent increase back to the appropriate level. Once the appeal is made, that is it.

However, it is picked up again in the next year when the rent application considers the fact that the previous year he got money back from taxes. Mr. Martindale: Will the minister direct her staff in the Rent Regulation Bureau to enforce the act when subsequent applications are made, instead of having the director say, we are thinking about it and worrying about it? What direction will this minister give so this does not happen again? Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Speaker, our policy is as I have outlined.

If there was a refund or a change in the tax assessment as the result of appeal on tax reassessment, it is picked up the next year and the adjustment made the next year. Education System Special Needs Funding Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education. The problems with government chronic underfunding of education is not helped by the government's publication of inaccurate information.

Can the minister clarify why the department and herself persist in stating that special needs has increased by 42 percent this year when this is impossible, since special needs funding totalled $51 million last year and the increase of 42 percent would equal $22 million, which is beyond what the government is giving to the total public education system of the province of Manitoba combined? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, there is most certainly an increase in the area of special education funding.

The figure of 42 percent is very important because it signals money that is available very specifically for the area of special education, and it signals this government" s commitment to that special need. Mr. Chomlak: It is a pity the figure is wrong. It is not 42 percent. I am asking the minister my supplementary. When will this government live up to its promised commitment of funding 80 percent of the costs of special needs rather than the less than 50 percent that it is funding today? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Speaker, we are attempting to meet commitments to all Manitobans within the amount of money that Manitobans presently have and can afford to pay for education. Mr. Chomlak: My final supplementary to the minister is: While she reviews these commitments, I wonder if the minister could undertake to inform me why she is going to 64 percent of the funding of private schools and special needs remains at 50 percent or less? Mrs. Vodrey : Mr.

Speaker, the funding for independent schools has not yet been announced, but I would like to remind my honourable friend that any funding for independent schools is for operational only and does not include capital. Taxicab Industry Luxury Cab Proposal Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is for the Minister of Highways and Transportation. The minister has met on many different occasions to listen to the taxi industry in regard to concerns about the expanding or the potential expansion of the taxi fleet. We are very disappointed that the minister has turned a deaf ear. In fact, he was not really listening.

The Taxi Board has made a decision to bring upon 40 new luxury cabs, not thinking in terms of what the consequences are going to be to those who currently have a taxi plate licence. It has served a devastating blow- Mr.Speaker: Order, please. Does the honourable member have a question? Kindly put your question. Mr. Lamoureux: My question to the minister is: Does this government endorse the decision made by the Taxi Board to increase the number of taxis on the road? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr.

Speaker, I want to indicate to the member that we have a Taxicab Board which has been appointed, and it is a quasi-judicial board. That Taxicab Board has the right to make all kinds of decisions. They have gone through a very difficult two years of having hearings and trying to address some of the concerns within the taxicab

an LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 3, 1992 industry. They have made some decisions, and it is within their jurisdiction to make those decisions. Mr. Lamoureux: Why did the government not indicate that we should have upgraded, if they want luxury cabs, 40 of the current cabs to luxury? Mr. Speaker, we do not deny that the public want- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr. Driedger: I think many people will take exception to the statement that the Taxicab Board has shafted the industry. Let me just indicate, Mr.

Speaker, that I think It is approximately 40 years that we have had 400 licences within the province, and it has never changed. In the hearings that the Taxicab Board undertook, they felt by the response that came in that there was a demand for a special upgraded cab within the industry within the city. When you consider the increase in population from the time that we had 400 licences there to the population that we have right now, the Taxicab Board felt, based on representation made to them, that there was a requirement for an elite cab. There were 32 elite cabs, and eight are for specially handicapped people.

Mr. Lamoureux : Mr. Speaker, my final supplementar y: Why is this govern ment undercutting the market price of a taxi licence by selling the permits for only $100 when the licence holders can sell their very same licences today for between $45,000 to $50,000, turning a quick profit over to whom? Mr. Driedger: I find it interesting that the member raises the questions here. If he has had concern on the taxicab industry, he should have maybe appeared at the hearings and put his views forward at that time. That is what the hearings were all about. Mr.

Speaker, I made a mistake three years ago when I personally got involved with the taxicab industry. It was not within my jurisdiction to do so, and that has been corrected. The Taxicab Board has their jurisdiction. They have had their hearings, made their decisions, and I support that. Health Care System Ucensed Practical Nurses' Role Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): I would like to further pursue these concerns that many Manitobans have with respect to the future of licensed practical nurses.

Many people are worried, patients are certainly concerned, and women who have practised in this field for over 20 years are now finding their careers coming to an end and are very worried. We can argue about statistics, but I think, when you are dealing with the master of obfuscation, the Minister of Health, we will not get anywhere. I would like to ask- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would ask you to ask the honourable member to withdraw that statement.

We are all honourable member s; at least Beauchesne says we are, and we are to be treated in that fashion. I think that that statement was most unkind to the Minister of Health, and I would ask that the member withdraw that. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will withdraw that word. It was just in my memory, so recently planted there by the Minister of Health yesterday. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable member for St. Johns. *** Ms. Wasylycla-Le ls: Let me just ask a straightforward question.

What is the policy of this government when it comes to the profession called licensed practical nurse? Does this government support the notion of a mix of nursing professionals, including the RN, the LPN and the aide, or is this government moving in a direction that is counter to every other province in this country? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): No, Mr. Speaker, and yes. •

(1410) Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: I am beginning to regret withdrawing the word obfuscation-[inte�ection) Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Considering that the decision, with respect to the school at St. Boniface General Hospital, is being made as a result of a budgetary squeeze being placed on the hospital by this govern ment's budget-reduction exercise, would this minister convey to the St. Boniface General Hospital that there is some flexibility in the

March 3, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 878 $19 -millio n-budget-r eduction exercise of this current year and the $20-million-budget-reduction exercise of this coming fiscal year so that they can make decisions- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, on careful reflection to my previous answer, I may have had to reverse the order or else the questions.

I want to tell my honourable friend that, when she is talking about flexibility around the budget, that is exactly the process that has been in place for some 15 years, including when my honourable friend sat around the cabinet table making hospital decisions. That flexibility, Mr. Speaker, demands of the hospital administrators that they manage within their budgets, as allocated by government, and without deficits, as I explained to the member for Brandon East (Mr.

Leonard Evans), and I will explain for the critic for the New Democratic Party, because she was at the cabinet table when the Pa wley administration made that decision. I tell you, we agree with it. Now, Mr. Speaker, in terms of dealing with the issues of staffing complements and the mix of staffing on the various wards of hospitals throughout the province, we have said that that is a management decision that the administrators must make to assure quality patient care.

I would hope that within those management decisions, there should and ought to be room for all disciplines of trained nurses in the province of Manitoba, because I think then one can accomplish both the budgetary exercise as well as the patient care that all Manitobans want to see continue. Bed Closures Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns}: Mr. Speaker, is the action being considered at St. Boniface hospital to close the School of Practical Nursing and to lay off LPNs related at all to the difficult situation the hospital has been placed in by this government who has directed the St.

Boniface hospital and the Health Sciences Centre to consider the impact of closing 250 beds? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health}: Mr. Speaker, the hospitals are being asked to manage within budgets, budgets which have increased year over year, in last year's case, not by the $19 million that was requested in addition to the increased funding we provided. What we are attempting to do with the Urban Hospital Council, with individual hospitals, is to develop care for the patient.

There are examples, as is tabled in the Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation report, which clearly indicate that there is a more appropriate regime of care for the patient not dependent on institution, that it may well be in community. That is what my honourable friend has been urging me to do. Northern Health Care Transportation Fee Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson}: Mr.

Speaker, of all the unfair and insensitive actions this government has taken, one of the most insensitive has been the application of the $50 user fee for Northern Patient Transportation, particularly as it affects remote northern communities such as IIford, Thicket Portage, Pikwitonei and Wabowden.

Since those communities are now asking the government to have physician services provided since many individuals in those communities cannot afford the three-days-a-week train service to travel to Thompson, stay overnight for a couple of days, be faced with hundreds of dollars of bills just to have access to a general practitioner, will the minister now withdraw the $50 user fee and provide fairness to all northerners? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health}: Mr. Speaker, I realize my honourable friend has raised this issue time and time again.

Let me background the decision by government around the $50 consumer contribution toward transportation. Everybody in Manitoba must pay for their costs of accessing health care services. Whether it means you pay for your gasoline in your car and the time it takes you to get from Point A to Point B, everybody pays for their cost of accessing health care services, be it a doctor's visit, be it an ambulance trip. The exception was the Northern Patient Transportation warrant which picked up 1 00 percent of the cost for a select group of Manitobans in northern Manitoba.

My honourable friend from his seat says not to pay accommodation. Is he asking the taxpayers to do some th in g he did not do and pick up accommodation? Of course, he is not, because all Manitobans, if they have to stay overnight, must pay the accommodation themselves whether it is in Winnipeg, Brandon, Dauphin or wherever, no matter where they live. What the policy did was provide equity across the province where there would be a contribution toward the cost of transporting oneself

879 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 3, 19 92 from their home to their access point for health care services, a policy of equity across the province, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Nonpolitical Statements Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might have leave to make a nonpolitical statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Leave? It is agreed. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, today is the second day of the second annual National Social Work Week.

As a social worker myself, I am pleased to rise today to pay tribute to the thousands of men and women in Manitoba and across this country who have found themselves in a wide range of occupations and jobs under the general heading of social work. For over 100 years, these men and women have been providing assistance to Individuals, families and communities in need.

The names and the job descriptions may have changed over time, but the basic value that everyone in our society has the right to the best life they can lead has framed social work as a practice, and I as a member of that profession take a great deal of honour and respect in that basic value. Today, social workers are found in virtually every town, region and city in our province working in a wide-ranging number of organizations, providing services to Manitobans literally from cradle to grave, both in their work time and in their volunteer time after their working hours.

I would like to put on the record just a few of the agencies and the organizations and the areas in which social workers provide service to our citizens of Manitoba. In no particular order, social workers are found at the Psychological Services Centre; Child Gu idance Clinic; the Child and Family Services agencies; and the Native-mandated Child and Family Services agencies throughout the province; Family Services of Winnipeg Inc.; Service de conseiller in St.

Boniface; the Women's Post Treatment Centre; Women in Second Stage Housing; the shelters throughoutt he province; crisis centres throughout the province such as the one found in Lundar, Eriksdale and Ashern; the Selkirk Mental Health Centre; the Brandon Mental Health Centre; the Manitoba Development Centre; the Eden Mental Health Centre; hospitals throughout the province; personal care homes; the Boys and Girls Club; Klinic; Evolve;the Community Education Development Agency better known as CEDA; Interagency Group; Marymound, both in Winnipeg and Thompson; the Knowles School; Macdonald Youth Services; Mount Carmel Clinic; Ten Ten Sinclair; the Canadian Mental Health Association; the Canadian National Institute for the Blind; the Manitoba League of the Physically Handicapped Inc.; Elizabeth Fry Society of Manitoba; as well as social workers being found in research, in university settings as professors, as government consultants and might I add in the Legislature, not only myself as a social worker, but also we have an intern who is a social worker.

Finally, I would like to congratulate again the thousands of social workers in Manitoba. The work you do, while often not recognized or understood or app reciated, has brought satisfaction in accomp lishment to generations of Manitoba. Congratulations on this week. Thank you. •

(1420) Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, might I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Leave? It is agreed. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker, I would like to join with the member for Wellington in recognizing the fact that this is Social Work Week. I had the honour last night of speaking at the opening ceremonies where they recognized the distinguished social worker of the year, Clay Wotherspoon from Marymound Inc. He is a very fine person as the member for Pembina (Mr. Orchard) says.

Clay has worked some 30 years as a social worker in this province, the last 20 at Marymound home for girls and has developed a record in this community for being a caring, compassionate and truly distinguished individual. In thanking the profession for honouring him in this way last night, he made a point that I think is worth repeating. He spent the time just talking about those people that have contributed to his life, about his wife, his children and the people he works with and his colleagues.

He said he looks forward to a day when the people who do the work in this community helping other people get the kind of

March 3, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 880 recognition that we afford tci the rock stars and the movie stars. He looks forward to a day when a child care worker can walk down the street and have people stopping them, recognizing them and thanking them for the work that they do. It is a profession that knows only too well the underside of our communities and has people who have devoted themselves to try to make this truly a gentler, kinder, friendlier community to live in. I think they deserve the support of this House. Thank you very much. Hon.

Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Might I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable minister have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Leave? It is agreed. Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr. Speaker, I would like to add my voice and the voice of the government to the congratulations offered to social workers as they celebrate National Social Work Week this particular week.

Obviously, we have a tremendous network of social services across this province, as referenced by one of the previous speakers, where we have so many, many social workers working with families in crisis and disadvantaged children. I can say that my understanding of the very, very difficult work that they do is enhanced every week in this position as Minister of Family Services. I have nothing but the highest respect for those front-line social workers who day after day have to deal with the crises that face Manitobans.

I am aware that Clay Wotherspoon was honoured last night at a ceremony for his tremendous contribution to social work in the 30 years that he has worked in that field, and I would like to add my congratulations to him and say it is a much deserved recognition of the career he has had in helping others. On behalf of the government, I extend my best wishes to all social workers for their contributions in Manitoba and across this country. Thank you. Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, might I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Leave? It is agreed. Mr. Penner: I take some pleasure in rising today to recognize the tremendous effort that was put on by a group of people in the southeast part of the province over the weekend. There was a snowmobile ride sponsored by the Minnesota Trailbla zers and the Manitoba Snowmobile organization, and it was organized by Margaret Arndt from Rennie, Manitoba and Mike Heteen from Minnesota. We were joined that evening in a finale by Senator Stumpf from Minnesota, as well as a member of the Minnesota Legislature, Mr. Tunheim.

The effort that was made in bringing these snowmobile people together was in recognition of the opening of a trail that was opened a year ago to connect the network of Minnesota-North Dakota snowmobile trails with the Manitoba snowmobile trails and afford the tourism industry and the hospitality industry in that southeast area an opportunity to present a hospitable atmosphere to all those snowmobilers that travel back and forth across this province.

I pay tribute to all the organizers and all the people who were involved and congratulate them for jointly, between our two great nations, sponsoring a ride such as this, not only to demonstrate our friendliness, but in fact to promote tourism in both countries. Committee Changes Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimll): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could make some committee changes. I move, seconded by the member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments be amended as follows: The member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) for the member for Arthur-Virden (Mr.

Downey); the member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) for the member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Vodrey). Mr. Speaker: Agreed? An Honourable Member: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae (Acting Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you be so kind as to call the bills as they are listed on the Order Paper beginning at page 2, Bill 9.

881 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA March 3, 19 92 DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 9-- The Economic Innovation and Technology Council Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable the First Minister (Mr. Film on), Bill9, The Economic Innovation and Technology Council Act;

Loi sur le Conseil de l'innovation economique et de Ia technologie, standing in the name of the honourable member for the Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans). Stand. Is there leave that this matter remain standing? An Honourable Member: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Leave. It is agreed. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to rise today to speak to people in the House, including the Attorney General regarding Bill 9. I have just spent a few minutes reading over the provisions of Bill 9, and it seems to me that this bill is very much part of the government's smoke and mirrors program.

Essentially, when you are really not sure of what you are doing, you come up with a diversion, come up with smoke and mirrors to try to convince the public that in fact the government is doing something. I think there is a consistency here with what this government is doing in this vein over the last couple of years when they brought in the ozone depleting substances measures and environmental legislation and so on. There does not seem to be much more than lip service paid by this government in this area.

I guess it does make some sense because traditionally Conservatives have been not known to be overly sensitive to things such as the environment, ozone depletion and generally new ideas. It has not been one of their fortes. We have a different version of a Conservative government here. We have, I believe, a version that has taken a page out of the Bill Davis handbook on how to stay in power for as long as possible.

While they may not be actually doing anything constructive in these areas, they want to convey to the public, they want to convince enough members of the public that in fact they are progressive, in fact they do have a concern about these issues. I think this Bill 9 is just another example of this effort by the government to basically approach the problem with window dressing. I look across at a government that is very tired. It looks to me that it is very directionless, it is aimless, it has lost its way. I think what we have here is a government that is on the way out.

All governments go through different periods. They come in with the initial period of euphoria when they win, and they are very excited about things they are going to do. There is a limitless horizon in front of a new government. We saw that with this government. They went through that particular period In their existence, but those days are long gone now, Mr. Speaker. This government is, in many respects, getting into a stage of premature aging.

It is going bald prematurely on us, and we see from month to month the changes in this government and how the members are becoming very disheartened about where the government is headed. That is to be expected in many, many respects. All parties run into this problem after they have been in power for a little while, when they find that some of the problems are more complicated than they originally thought, but then other problems set in and the problems are peculiar to how one solves a particular problem. This is what this government Is really coming to terms with right now.

They have to come to grips with the realization that they do have limited power, not only that but how they are going to deal with the limited power they do have. Which road are they going to take? You have the faint-of-heart people in the caucus over there and in the cabinet over there who are interested in half measures and are interested in smoke and mirrors and fleeting popularity. Then you have the other people in the caucus who are perhaps a little more serious, perhaps want more than just half measures and are there out of a policy desire and wish perhaps to take a more extreme position.

Of course, at this point it is debatable as to how well they are doing in the grand scheme of things. *

(1430) What happens with all the activity that produces a bill like Bill 9 is that all that activity reduces the government into basic inertia, in that nothing really happens. The government is trying to deal with what is essentially a worldwide problem, and it is not really a major player in this worldwide problem. It is trying to deal with it using old methods. Even the Chamber of Commerce, at this point in our history, is realistic enough to propose that governments cease giving big grants to private businesses. The

March 3, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 882 Conservatives themselves, the ministers in this government, many of them recognize the futility of having one company basically barter one government off against another, and how futile that is. In fact, companies which do not want to partake in that bartering and government monies are really left at a disadvantage, and they are wondering why. They would be silly not to take money if it is being offered to them. So perhaps governments across the country have to make decisions, and that is that they will stop giving handouts to businesses.

I think that there is a good sign when the businesses themselves are saying, let us stop doing it because it is counterproductive. Not only is it counterproductive, but it also leads to problems within those business communities themselves because no business person wants his competitor to be given an unfair advantage by the government. The quickest way to lose support is to be giving money to one competitor in one field at the expense of everyone else in the field. So there is a fundamental question here that has to be solved, that has to be solved by governments of all stripes, in all jurisdictions.

This government has been no more successful than others in resolving that question, as to whether or not they are going to keep giving money out to private enterprise and under what terms they are to give it out to private enterprise. This innovation council essentially continues along the same vein here. In the bill there are references to supporting economic restructuring through inn ovation and development and commercialization of technology so as to enable Manitoba to compete effectively in the global market. Well, this, to me, using a conservative

interpretation of this, means that what they are going to be doing is giving more handouts and grants and incentives to their friends. In fact, the process will even be accelerated under this particular Clause 3(

a) of the bill because now they are getting into new areas for privatization. They are involved with the Linnet Graphics, which will eventually see a tremendous amount of public money, taxpayers' money, being put into an enterprise to provide profits down the road to a private company, and it stands to reason that eventually, friends of the government will be major participants and partakers in these initiatives. This is a major flaw I see in the government's approach, and certainly this bill encourages that. There is talk of a number of companies which are moving to the United States.

The other night, CBC did a show, Venture did a show, indicating that perhaps some 200 companies have left Canada and were relocating in the United States. They were suggesting that perhaps it was not as easy as was originally thought that these companies could simply pack up out of Canada and move to the States and all their cares would disappear, and they would have nothing but good luck.

This particular person, who was profiled on this show, seemed quite attracted by the $4-an-hour wage rates that he was looking forward to in California, but he was complaining that the Californians were not taking care of him in the manner which he was used to being taken care of. I think that points to perhaps just a problem with a peculiar business attitude this particular person had, and which I am sure is shared by a lot of other people, because when you realize that this story was not just a case of this guy leaving Canada to set up shop in Aorida, but in fact, what was he leaving here in Canada?

I guess what I really want to say is that if business people want to leave this country so bad, then perhaps we should let them go because some of them are probably better off gone than having stayed here. Nevertheless, he was painting a picture that he was now in Aorida, and things were not as rosy as he thought they would be. You know, little do the public know that this particular person is going to Aorida because he could not make it up here, because he had used the Canadian system and abused the Canadian system as much as he possibly could, to the extent that he finally went bankrupt.

He left a lot of people, Canadians, living here in this province with debts that they are going to be stuck with. I think it is quite convenient and incredible for a so-called rugged individualist who lived beyond his means in Canada, who ran up debts in Canada through poor management and improper foresight, ran his business into the ground, left a bunch of Canadian suppliers owing him money and then abruptly leaves the country citing high taxes and a bad business environment. This person will have a problem no matter what business environment he is involved in.

883 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 3, 1992 I predict to you that this person, if he continues on the way he is, will end up going bankrupt in Florida, and then what is he going to do? Is he going to blame himself? No, he will blame the State of Florida for not having the right business climate, because he was saying he had been there five days, and he was not happy because things were not clicking for him. You know, that $4-an-hour labour was not out there producing profit for him yet, and the banks had not authorized his operating loans.

He now is suggesting that somehow the Aorida business climate is not to his liking, so perhaps he will head further south and be happier in Mexico or somewhere else. • (1 440) (Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) I think the point is that there is a peculiar attitude to some people in the business committee that, in fact, the world owes them a living, and that all is fair in securing the sale, in running the business, that if they can get breaks-they believe in free enterprise, they preach a free enterprise line and they want the government to keep their hands out of the business, but on the other side of the coin, they are the first in to try to get as much money and guarantees as they can from the public.

Over the years, these businesses, and we all know them in Canada here, have set up shop, polluted the environment, polluted the rivers in northwestern Ontario and then abruptly shut down, leaving the enormous cost of the pollution cleanup on the backs of the taxpayers. What, in the final analysis, did we really get out of this plant that was set up? It was set up with taxpayers' money. It was run as cheaply as possible, no pollution controls, and now years later, when all the ore is taken out of the ground and shipped to The States or wherever it was shipped to, the workers now are unemployed.

The pollution is still there in the ground, and millions and millions of dollars have to be spent to clean up the pollution. In fact, by and large, the workers more than likely in many cases are sick and have been poisoned by the pollution that the plant has given out, Mr. Acting Speaker. There is a major amount of hypocrisy in the business community in this country, and I was very hopeful that when the Chamber of Commerce last year made the statement that it thought that the provincial government should cease to give handouts to businesses-and I am sure the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness) was grateful to hear that because I know that the Minister of Finance is a fis cal conserva tive -when the Chamber of Commerce said that they would appreciate the elimination of grants to private . business, I would have thought that this minister would have been happier than most of his colleagues. It is about time that the Chamber of Commerce has taken such a responsible position in that vein, and I only hope that the government listens to it and pays some attention to it because that whole process had to stop.

It is impossible to be caught in a situation similar to a cat chasing his tail, when you are trying to barter with different companies for jobs here and there, and the jobs end up going to the largest bidder. There is always someone who has a bigger pot of cash who can attract these jobs, and in fact the jobs become uneconomical. I believe if we take a look through most agreements that governments of all stripes have signed with some of these private businesses, I think we would find these jobs were bought at tremendous cost.

The jobs were bought at perhaps more than they are worth, certainly In the case of a mine in the '50s where the long tail of pollution is still with us today. I mean, the cost there, we bought ourselves a much, much serious problem. Nevertheless, what does this government intend to do vis-a-vis the North American free trade agreement with Mexico? Their attitude in the tree trade deal with the United States-and the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) was the architect or the one that I heard the most of putting the government's position across.

His line was consistent, and that was, what are we going to do if we do not sign this agreement? He was defeated before he started. His attitude was, If we do not sign this agreement, we are going to be in worse shape, so let us jump on this as a stopgap. Now three, four years later, we are seeing the results of this agreement, and I think his attitude still is, well, it is better than no deal at all. Think of what things would be like if we did not have this deal, and that seems to be their position.

With respect to the trade deal involving Mexico, that seems to be their attitude as well, that we have to go along with this deal because if we do not things are going to be worse. It is not possible, I believe, for us to win in a situation where we are involving ourselves with a

March 3, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 884 trade deal with Mexico. I used the example in caucus arguments in the past where the bigger party to any deal has an advantage. If Winnipeg was negotiating a free trade deal with Thompson and you were looking for a level playing field-because that is what they keep talking about is a level playing field-and you were trying to construct a trade deal with Morris or a trade deal with Thompson you would have to be more than level. It would have to be a tilted playing field to make it equal.

Because if you have a level playing field between Winnipeg and Thompson, I mean, it is more equal in Winnipeg's favour by the sheer size of the resources the city has to offer. Why we felt, why our negotiators, why the Conservatives felt that somehow a level playing field was going to give us, little Canada with 26 million, 27 million people, an equal playing field to compete with the United States is just beyond me.

We would have had to have an agreement that would have been viewed as heavily biased in our favour in order for us to be on a level playing field, but that throws out the idea of a level playing field being the operative approach here. Mr. Acting Speaker, another

section of the bill talks about financial services being targeted at levering innovation. Well, that is just more of the same. I hesitate to call the Premier "Premier Moonbeam" here, but I am just not certain what he envisions here, whether this is part- The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Order, please. I would like to remind the honourable member that all members are honourable members and we will refrain from using that type of name-calling in the House. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Acting Speaker, I did not realize that Premier Moonbeam was a derogatory comment- The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Order, please. Mr.

Maloway: I will withdraw and listen to the admonition of the Acting Speaker. Mr. Acting Speaker, I am still very unclear as to what so rt of financial incentives they are planning-he is planning, because after all this is the Premier's bill, Bill 9. I am wondering what sort of financial incentives he is planning on targeting and at the levering of innovation. I mean, clearly from here, he is planning to use money from this innovation council as seed money to bring in more money. I mean, the theory works solidly in financial circles at times.

When the market is good, people can borrow a dollar and perhaps buy securities, $2 worth of securities for $1 . Then if the value of the securities goes up, they simply sell, pay off their debts, and they have made a profit. Well, that is the philosophy behind leveraging, but I do not know how the leveraging is going to work so well in this area, because he is talking about a potentially tremendous amount of money here for research and development. I do not believe that this government is capable of being able to select areas that are going to produce really good results.

The history of this sort of activity would tend to indicate otherwise, because it is provinces like Manitoba that end up being stuck with things like Sprung. Most of you are familiar with the Sprung greenhouse in the Maritimes where they were growing gigantic cucumbers or some type of strange cucumbers. It is this sort of weird--1 guess perhaps it is not a weird idea because, with all due respect to the person who invented this cucumber process, perhaps the system wou ld have worked somewhere.

The fact of the matter is, it was not taken by any Toronto market, it ended up being in Newfoundland, and they spent a fortune on this thing before they finally closed it down. * (1 450) Well, that is the kind of activity that this minister, this province is going to attract for this leveraged innovation. We are going to see ideas like this come forward. There was a case a while back in southern Manitoba where Dara Wilder, I believe, a man running a company I believe from B.C., was turning pulpwood into sugar, or something like this, and this was in fact being sanctioned by the federal tax department.

The federal tax department was giving tax shelter credits for people who invested in this thing. Do not tell me that this will never happen. I have seen, over the years here, both when the NDP were in government, when the Conservatives have been in government, it does not matter which party is in power, the fact of the matter is that loony ideas get put into practice by all governments. I mean that is a fact. I would be very, very cautious about letting the member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Connery) run amuck with something like this. Let me tell you, I would say that you would want to be very careful

885 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 3, 1992 and make certain that this Economic Innovation and Technology Council be kept in some very secure hands, because we would not want the member for Portage in charge of the space program that the province-nor would we want Mike Bessey in charge of the province's space program here. I have a fear, I have a real deep-seated fear that the member for Portage Ia Prairie is somehow going to get his hands on these levers and will end up in charge of our space program, and we are going to be in major league troubles if that happens.

The government is doing all it can right now to keep that member for Portage away from digging ditches out in Portage Ia Prairie and damming rivers and doing all sorts of things that he wants to do. He wants to remake the map of western Manitoba. It is all this government can do is to stop him from doing this mega project that he is promoting right now. We are hearing a lot about it over here because I think he is doing some unauthorized sales of this Idea. Perhaps an Idea like this has a chance of getting somewhere with cooler heads, and not too many weird Ideas.

Having said all of this though, I have to tell you that, and this harkens back to what the government, when I said the government was involved in a smoke and mirrors caper here, the fact of the matter is that they have reduced the contributions, the financial contributions, to the research and development sector. What they have really done is simply, through smoke and mirrors, brought in a new bill, called it The Economic Innovation and Technology Council Act, and they have simply replaced an existing body that was there before and reduced its financial contribution. I am sure the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness) lays awake at night dreaming up all these smoke and mirrors, thinking how can we do more with less, how can we move the peas in among the shelves here and make it look like we are really doing something, that we are really concerned and spend less money doing it. I have to give him full credit. They have come up with some real winners, some real winners here, over the last couple of years. Like I said, as long as they keep it away from the member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Connery), there may be some hope. Mr. Acting Speaker, I guess at this point I should ask you how much time I have left.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Ten minutes. pnte�ection] Mr. Maloway: Thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker. Well, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) is not trying to encourage me to use up my final 1 0 minutes. You know, when the Minister of Finance encourages me not to, l feel that I must. pnte�ection] That Is right, I am a contrary guy, and the Minister of Finance and I have been on radio shows the last couple of elections talking about the economy and so on, and making predictions about how many seats parties were going to get.

I know we were quite shocked to find the number of Liberals that arrived here back in 1988. That was a prediction that neither one of us were too accurate in making as to those numbers, but other than that I have always had respect for the Minister of Finance's abilities, and I know that he is one of the major players over there on that side of the House, some would say the de facto leader of the government.

Others might say other things-It is hard to say-but I know that he has a very difficult time dealing, as any Finance minister would, with financial circumstances and a lack of will and a sense of direction over there in the government. The government is a very tentative government. The government is scared that it is going to make that one mistake, and I tell you it will happen. They are so terrified of making that one mistake that drops them those 1 0 points in the polls from which they will never recover. They know the mistake is out there.

They know it is there somewhere right now, maybe they even know that we know about it, but they are waiting for it to drop. They are hoping that it is not going happen, and so far they have had a pretty enormous spring of luck. (interjection] You, the government. The government has been very, very lucky over the last three years, but even they know that as the wrinkles increase and the lines increase that it is only a matter of time before the whole thing starts to fall down the chute.

Anyway, I have made several statements here that the government should quit giving out grants willy-nilly to private businesses, that the Chamber of Commerce has finally taken some type of a principal position in the last year and asked the government to stop giving them money, and the government should listen to that and quit handing out handouts to business.

March 3, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 886 As a matter of fact, businesses do not like handouts being given to their competitors. I know that Mr. Acting Speaker would certainly agree with me that in the petroleum business, if one garage owner were to get a grant who happened to be a competitor of his when he was formerly in the business, he would not have been happy. He would not have been happy to have that person have an unfair advantage over him.

It is self-defeating to get involved in that section. * (1 500) Now, if it is kept to industries where there really is not competition locally, then perhaps one can make a better argument for some sort of government assistance. In other words, if it is a one-of-a-kind type of business, then an argument can be made. If there are already competitors operating here, those competitors will find the market. They do not have to be primed by government incentives and government grants and so on.

We have also seen that the idea that somehow businesses are flocking to the United States as an answer to high taxation and other problems up here, that that is beginning to crack. In fact, it is not that the proposition is not as good as what the media have made it out to be. Witness the person that I mentioned to you who said when he went to Aorida, things just were not the way he liked them. You know, he did not have the financing in place that he thought the Aoridians had promised him. He did not have all that $4-an-hour labour hustling around making his product for him.

He had to admit that perhaps there were some productivity advantages in Canada, even at higher labour wages. Of course, what he did not say, and what we could clearly see was that he had an attitude problem, an attitude typical of a lot of business people in this country. His attitude was, this country owes me a living. His attitude was, I live on Park Boulevard and I deserve to live on Park Boulevard, and I will run my business into the ground through mismanagement. They can never accept that they do not know how to manage.

So they run their business into the ground here in Canada, they leave the country, literally leave it, house and mortgage foreclosure, American Express chasing them for 9,000 bucks, the moving company has not been paid. These rugged free enterprisers, these rugged individualists who do not believe in government handouts, right?-who run their business into the ground here in Canada, say they are leaving because the taxes are too high, when it is incompetence on their part and then they head to the United States.

Then they have got the gall to bitch down there that things are not right for them, that they have not got immediate bank loans. I am telling you, it is an attitude. It is an attitude that some of these people have. So do not necessarily believe that somehow businesses are going to be leaving here for better climates. They may leave here, but in actual fact when they get down there, they may realize that things are not so bad here after all, that there is a value to having proper social systems.

I know of businesses in the States that are concerned that their employees do not have proper health care, because the business has to factor that into the cost of their costs as well in the United States. In a lot of cases they have to pay the health care for their employees. It has got to be factored into there.

So it is a lot of false economy, a lot of false economy to be looking at those $4 an hour wages and thinking that somehow you are going to be able to head down to the United States and somehow everything is going to be going In your favour because, quite frankly, let me tell you this, that if you cannot run your business in Winnipeg, if you cannot run it here, you tell me how the hell you are going to do any better in Aorida? Explain that one to me?

Clearly, when a person has got $9,000 In American Express bills that they have not paid and a house triple what they need, surely they could have sold the house and maybe lived in more modest circumstances. They did not have to run up all those debts. An Honourable Member: Is this a business recommendation? Mr.Maloway: I am basically, to the minister, trying to explain that the press will oftentimes make it sound as though these business people cannot make it in Canada, and they are heading to the United States for a better business climate. In fact, this guy is complaining about the Aorida business climate.

He thinks the Aorida business climate stinks, right. I am saying this person would not be happy anywhere. He has left Canada because of high taxes, because he could not make a go of it here. Now he is in Aorida complaining about their system. I do not think this guy would be happy anywhere he was.

887 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 3, 19 92 Anyway, Mr. Acting Speaker, I sense that my little light is flashing, and it is time for me to conclude and come back another day. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): As previously agreed, this matter will remain standing in the name of the honourable member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans). Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): I will also be speaking to Bill 9, which I have just recently had a chance to go through. It seems to me that this Is this government's desperate attempt to look like it is doing something.

This government has a problem; they have a definite revenue problem. They have gotten themselves into a situation where they have made a commitment that they are not going to increase personal taxes.

We have a federal government which is hand over fist clawing back on transfer payments and, at the same time, continuing the Cons ervative monetary policy approach of decreasing taxes to corporations which, in my way of thinking, would be the greatest source of revenue this country has, which I am going to talk about a little bit of where under all the years of government we have had In this country and In this province, mostly In this country though because this is a federal area, they have allowed all of this money to escape from being part of public revenue.

Serious concerns about the bill are around the way it is going to affect the Manitoba Research Council, and I am sure the people at the research council are not impressed with this bill . It is interesting that we already have a research council which is supposed to make available to small businesses and industry some of the technology and expertise they would need so that they could Innovate, and there is some benefit to having that supplied by government. I would hope that would continue. The concern would be with this new council that the Premier is going to set up.

From seeing what they do with other boards and committees that they establish, my big question would be, who is going to be appointed to this? Is this going to be a council that is going to be lopsided, where we will not have a fair distribution of all the people who should be involved in economic discussion? Are we going to have people there from the voluntary sector, which makes up a huge part of our community and contributes extensively to work that is done in the economy? Are we going to have people there from labour? Are we going to have people involved in this council from the social services sector?

That is one of the concerns that I would have about this kind of initiative. One of the easiest ways of dealing with the problem that the Premier seems to be trying to deal with with this bill-and that is to increase the research and development in Manitoba-w ould be, I would think, to simply legislate, to simply legislate that companies of such-and-such a size making such-and-such a profit have to start investing something into research and development in this province.

I do not know if that is something that this council might recommend, Is that we simply start seeing some of the industry and companies in Manitoba start putting some money of their own into research and development, rather than coming to the government to do that. The government, unfortunately, is not going to be able to have research and development carried out at the universities and colleges like we would like to because of the cu tbacks from the federal government.

I do not think it would be impossible for governments to start legislating that industry start putting some money into that kind of research and development, which we know would go a long way into making us more productive. One of the things I wanted to talk about a little bit too is it would be Interesting If this council is going to sit down and take a good look at which areas of our economy would be better served by having Crown corporations and which would be better served having private industry manage those sectors.

It seems like the government's choice and what they are doing with Linnet, that company, that there would be an opportunity for a body like this to take a look at that decision and to give us some suggestions if that is going to be the best approach to have our sensitive data controlled under. *( 15 10 ) A number ofthe other members have talked about the approach of government that adopts the monetary policy that this one is adopting, and I wonder if with this council we are going to see more situations like we saw with Macleod Stedman where we are going to have companies that they say we are trying to attract here.

We have to give up our stand ard of living. We have to see ou r environmental laws compromised so that we can attract all these industries here. It never seems to happen that they do what they say they are going to do once they get here. Over and over again we see

March 3, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 888 that they want to have guaranteed loans so that they can expand. They need to have government money so that they can do any kind of development, and there never seems to be any conditions on that money, that they maintain a certain amount of service or remain in Manitoba. There is always the threat that, if we do not give the private sector everything they want, they are going to leave. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) I have some interesting information here related to federal and provincial personal and corporate taxes, direct taxes.

It is interesting to see that very recently, just since 19 86, we have seen personal taxes go up from $85.3 billion to $1 12 .8 billion. The corporations have gone from $14.4 billion in 19 86 to $1 5.3 billion in 19 89. One of the interesting things I always talk about with people is how we have seen this change since around the '50s. If you go back to the '50s, corporate and individual taxes paid were about equal, 50-50. It has only been since then that we have seen this shift where we find this horrible Imbalance where Individuals in this country are paying this incredible percentage greater of taxes.

Another chart I have here, Mr. Speaker, is corporate profit subsidies and taxes in 1 984. These are a little old, but still I can rest assured, I think we can all know that things have got worse and not better. Before-tax profits were $57.2 billion and with federal and provincial income taxes there was $1 2.6 billion. Government subsidies around that time were $8.4 billion. We can see that there has been to this point a very low rate of affected corporate tax paid in Canada and a constantly growing direct share of taxes assumed by individual Canadians.

Another interesting thing we always hear talked about is the wonderful economy in Japan. There seems to be this illusion that Japan is the epitome of the individualistic sort of private-run economy. This, here, shows that industry in Japan, profits and capital gains paid by corporations in Japan was 48.8 percent as compared to Canada, which is 16 .9 percent. When I look at this, I am amazed to see that in Canada we are doing even worse than the U.S. where they are at 18 .3 percent, and even worse than the United Kingdom, over in Britain there, where they are at 28.6 percent.

So again, we talk about Japan and the thing that they are noted for is their manufacturing ability, their research and development, the technology industry that they have there, and we can see that those industries there are paying to support the community by having more than twice as much a percentage of taxes than we have in Canada. Another interesting thing here is we can compare to some other countries in Europe where we see personal income tax as a percentage of the total tax received.

In Canada, and I am not sure what year this is from, but in Canada we are over 40 percent for this year, and in France they are less than 15 percent, Italy 25 percent. Germany, which is another economy that is often talked about, in Germany the individuals there have a percentage of only 30 percent that they pay towards the tax revenues of their governments.

So when we hear all this talk about competition and how we have to tig hten our belts so that we can compete internationally, I look at some of these other countries and the way that their monetary policy relates to their industrial and private sector, and I think that in Canada what we are doing is we are competing ourselves up against a wall. I wonder if these kinds of things are going to be considered by this council. A couple of the areas that I think that we need to have more research and development in first of all are going to be signified by the demographics in our population.

We are heading to a point where we are going to have a huge number of senior citizens who are going to need services, are going to need people to care for them, and to me that is where we should be having some of our research money being spent. The question is going to become, who is going to pay for that kind of research? We are going to have to develop a better system for these people to have the kind of affordable aids that they will need to get around. They are going to need housing where they can live and have the kind of support they need.

To me this is a significant area where there should be a lot more research and attention being paid to, is this social trend that is going to take place with having a greater number of senior citizens in our society and a far fewer number of young people and people working in the work force. I wonder if that is something that this council would be going to address, and the implications that that is going to have. • (1 520) Another area is the whole area of environment. One of the meetings I had recently was with Atomic Energy Canada.

I was disturbed to hear them talk about the kind of research that they were doing there related to environment, related to developing

889 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 3, 19 92 technology that would deal with emissions pollution and ground water contamination, and to have them explain how recently something that they invented, did the research and invented, was actually sold to Japan and it is going to be manufactured and distributed out of Japan. To me, this is an example of where we have missed the boat in Canada. If we cannot even have the kinds of things that are being developed in Canada, manufactured and sold from here, then we are in even more trouble than I thought.

This government is going along and developing a kind of council that is going to authorize even more grants to private industry. They are forgetting about the kind of revenue that is generated for, to stay in government coffers, on some of the kinds of developments that were being done under the Manitoba Data Services or the Manitoba Research Council that were generating money for the public treasury in Manitoba.

When I started talking, I was referring to the problem that this government has with revenues and how desperate they are to be seen as doing something, to be seen as having any kind of leadership In this province, and what they seem to be really good at is developing committees like this which, in effect, end up doing a lot of public relations. It would be interesting for us to tally up all the government councils and groups that they have developed that are putting out a lot of material, things like in the sustainable development unit.

I read an interesting little pamphlet the other day, or booklet the other day, Environmental Tax Incentives. One thing that struck me was the very cautious wording in that document. It looked really good. It was on recycled paper, green ink. I would challenge the government to start implementing some of those kinds of suggestions in there, where there would be some, again, revenue generated, other than just sending out the booklet and making it look like they are doing something. I fear that that is the same kind of thing that we are going to have with this group.

It is going to be another round table that is going to spend. You know, the Round Table spent some $400,000 on putting out these quite nicely coloured purple booklets that were so vague and took up people's time in filling in surveys. In effect, we see that the RoundTable will not consider any substantial issues that are going on in Manitoba, like developments that are being proposed, like Conawapa, where there are significant economic and environmental considerations to be made. I have another paper here, called Canada under the Tory Government. It is a report on policy alternatives.

I was going through this and thinking there were some significant things here which I think are relevant to this bill. It is interesting to see that under the Conservatives in Canada more than 60 percent of the new jobs are in the lowest-paid categories. I wonder if this is the kind of thing that we are going to continue to see. A trend towards service jobs has two important consequences. The full-t ime, well-paying jobs predominate in the goods sector but not in the service sector.

In services there is a sort of job ghetto where the hourly rates are-- there are fewer hours, with an average 28 hours per week as compared to 38 hours per week in the goods sector. Again, we would hope that this kind of bill is going to address that and we would see some recommendations. One of the other areas this covers is, specifically, the whole issue of privatization, which not only reduces the quality of public services, it reduces the quality of new jobs avaAable to Canadians.

As we are getting all geared up and going along with Conservative policy, all that we ever hear is that we have to try and attract industry to come here. We see what we are attracting, the kinds of jobs that we tend to attract. The other issue that comes under this is that these kinds of industries tend to be nonunionized, and there is a significant problem with people then not being paid a living wage, a wage which they can live on.

We have a problem in Manitoba where more than 50 percent of those who are living under the poverty line are actually working and are part of that group that are becoming known as the working poor. With the kind of policies of trying to keep corporate taxes down to attract industry here, we tend to have those kinds of jobs. We see that the gap between the lowest and highest paid has increased sharply with these kinds of policies. I am just reading this. This is a very interesting paper. I would encourage--! would might just have to table this paper.

I would encourage the members opposite to have-- One of the other things I was reading recently, and I wish I had brought that book with me. It was a book called The Betrayal of Canada. Mel Hurtig wrote it, and I was hoping that this document might have

March 3, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 890 some of the same kind of information where it explained how foreign ownership that comes and sets up business and industry in Canada actually ends up draining money out of Canada. We have to have policy and some methods where we can start setting up some smaller Canadian-owned industry. I will get something else here. Here is something that is interesting.

The other facts that we should note with respect to this bill, and we see this government's real commitment to research and development, is the Manitoba Research Council last year had a budget cut of $700,000. That seems like it is pretty incongruent with the commitments- An Honourable Member: Incongruent? Ms. Cerllll: Incongruent, yes-w ith the sentiments the minister is claiming to have with announcing this bill. I ask the Speaker how much time I have left. * (1 530) Mr. Speaker: The honourable member has 14 minutes remaining. Ms. Cerllll: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will look for some more of my charts from these wonderful documents I have. Go to the bill. (interjection] We have lots of material here. [interjection] Sure it is. I have lost my train of thought. An Honourable Member: This is your time. If you cannot debate the bills during your time, when are you going to debate them? Go ahead, call it six. Ms. Cerllll: Well, no, do not call it six o'clock. [interjection] Are you sure? An Honourable Member: If you want to, it is government bills. Mr. Speaker: As previously agreed, this matter will remain standing in the name of the honourable member for the Interlake (Mr.

Clif Evans). 811110- The Manitoba Hydro Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Downey), Bill 10 , The Manitoba Hydro Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur !'Hydro-Manitoba, standing in the name of the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie). An Honourable Member: Stand. Mr. Speaker: Stand. Is there leave that this matter remain standing. Leave. It is agreed. ••• Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): It gives me pleasure to speak to this because these are government bills, and I always thought it was the responsibility of the government to keep the House running and continue government process. I am pleased to be able to speak to this- Point of Order Hon.

James McCrae (Acting Government House Leader): Just for my own identification, could you tell me, Your Honour, which bill we are debating just now. Mr. Speaker: I was just getting clarification on that. We had already agreed to have Bill 9 remain standing in the name of the honourable member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans), at which time I called Bill 10 . (interjection] I had already called Bill1 0, and we were discussing Bill 10 . Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Second Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, in fairness to the member from Point Douglas (Mr.

Hickes), his intentions, he had thought that there was will on the government to call it six o'clock, and he had full intentions on speaking to Bill 9, and we would be willing to give him leave in order to go back to Bill 9, so he can, in fact, speak. Mr. McCrae: I do not know whose idea this was about calling it six o'clock. It is not six o'clock, and we have two full pages of bills that are there for honourable members to pass or to debate or whatever, and we are only actually still on the first one on the list, so I do not quite understand that.

In any event, we would be happy to give leave to the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes). Mr. Speaker: Is there leave of the House to allow the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) to revert to Bill 9? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Leave? It is agreed. Bill 9- The Economic Innovation and Technology Council Act Mr. Ge orge Hlckes (P oint Dougl as ) : Mr. Speaker, at this time I would like to thank the

891 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 3, 19 92 opposition House leader and the second opposition House leader for giving me leave to speak to this very important bill, because when you are dealing with The Economic Innovation and Technology Council Act, it could have a lot of positive impacts and also it could have some negative impacts. This is very consistent with the Conservative cousins in Ottawa. In 19 83 and in 19 84, the Conservatives in Ottawa said, and I quote, we must work smarter, we cannot work harder than other countries. We must work smarter, and we must invest in research and development.

We must invest in technological innovation. We must invest in the future industries of this country. What are the future Industries of Manitobans? The future industry of Manitobans has to be first and foremost. When you go into new innovation and new ideas and new job opportunities is the whole area of training, to ensure that your youth and your citizens of Manitoba have the qualifications and the skills in order to meet the new demands that will be created by new job opportunities. Today, as I speak, we have 57,000 people unemployed in Manitoba as a record number.

That Is the highest ever, and it Is unacceptable by all Manitobans. So if we are going to have new ideas and new innovations, then let us have some appropri ate dollars and appropria te training programs to go along with those. That way our chil dren and the yout h of today have the opportunities to further their education. That is not helping by cutbacks that we have seen in the university programs, the ACCESS programs, and throughout northern Manitoba. In northern Manitoba as I speak there are thousands and thousands of people unemployed.

There are communities where 90 percent of the population have no jobs and no hope of getting jobs, and we are talking about innovative new ideas to create employment opportunities for Manitobans. The members that make up this committee, there will be 35 in total with the government people and government appointees. I wonder how many of those appointees will be drawing honorariums for every meeting they attend and taking money away from the youth that could be benefiting from those dollars. H you looked at the cutbacks we had in education by your last budget, we had a reduction of a mass amount of dollars.

We heard tuition fees in Manitoba universities had to go up 20 percent last year. This year the people who work out of those universities are predicting another 20 percent. That is a 40 percent tuition increase in two years--40 percent. How can the government sit there and say, we are doing the best we can for Manitoba, if tuition fees for our youth who are going to be hopefully filling these new scientific and new job opportunities for Manitoba, if it is increased 40 percent in two years? Have our wages gone up 40 percent? How about those youth who are working for $4.70 an hour?

How are they going to save to pay their new fees? Yet we say, well, we need new jobs, we need new ideas. If we have new jobs, new ideas, then someone has to have the skills in order to fill those new jobs that the government hopefully will be creating for Manitobans. Many people believed Canada had to become more and more relevant in technological ways and to invest more and more in innovation and technology to be competitive in the changing world environment.

So we say, when we talk about those changes, the most innovative action that any government can take right now in Canada is to scrap the Free Trade Agreement. That is where we are losing all our jobs. How many jobs have we lost during our Free Trade Agreement? It is hundreds and hundreds of thousands of jobs. Yet we hear, level playing field; we have to create a level playing field in order to compete in the whole free trade market. * (1 540) My colleague from Elmwood was talking earlier about this businessman who had this great invitation from Aorida to relocate his company there. I saw that same program.

He was promised relocation money, and he was promised thousands of dollars, a low-interest loan from the bank and promised that the labour force was there ready to take on the jobs. (Mr. Jack Penner, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) When we talk about innovative ideas that is a whole-the old research council had in place, let us look at some of the jobs that we are losing, because my colleague was talking about this individual.

This individual had moved his whole operation from here in Winnipeg, and those are manufacturing jobs that we lost, and now we are saying, well, we need to find new scientific employment opportunities. Why did we not work a little bit harder to keep those jobs here? If those were a hundred jobs that company moved to the United States, and now we

March 3, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 892 are going to come up with, it could be a space centre or rocket centre, whatever have you, to fill those hundred jobs that we lost. The individual who went down there, he even said with great pride, they work for $4 an hour and I do not have to pay any medical costs. Is that not a great statement to hear someone make? Someone makes $4 an hour-if you or I were working say for $4 an hour and one of our children got sick we would do anything to try and help our child to recover. Why are we losing those jobs? We need mo re support from our governments.

An Honourable Member: Spend, spend, spend. Mr. Hlckes: It is not spend, spend, spend, because those 1 00 people who lost their jobs, who is looking after them? I bet you if you looked at it, either they are on unemployment insurance or they are on social assistance. [interjection) That is right. If we spent a little bit of money to keep those jobs here we would have saved a heck of a lot more than what we are paying out in U.l. and social assistance. How do you mean by spend, spend, spend? That is save, save, save; that is not spend, spend, spend.

If a person is working and holding a meaningful job then that person has their days filled and they feel better about themselves, so you do not get the spousal abuse and the alcohol and drug abuse that all ties in with it. When we talk about innovative new ideas, let us look at some of the innovative new ideas that we have right in our own backyard and start protecting some of those. When we heard the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) in the last budget, it said we just have to stand aside, because the private sector will create all kinds of jobs. The private sector has new ideas.

Is that not what that council is all about, to put the brains of business, labour, aboriginal people, agricultural leaders, labour leaders to go into an equal partnership, to come up with some innovative jobs that we need here in Manitoba? The government said, stand aside, we will stand aside, the companies will create all the jobs and nobody will suffer. We will be the first one out of the recession. [interjection] No, it said 19 91 , the next quarter we will be out of it. We will be the first province out of it in Canada. Well, it is past 199 1 , and we are still stuck in it.

We are still losing more jobs today. I hope that the government in their wisdom will look at forming economic summit and consulting with all players who should be involved in creating employment opportunities. One of the big things that I heard talked about In the last budget, which was very important to me, because I am originally from the North and I know how bad it is in northern Manitoba for employment opportunities, even the whole area of trapping and fishing, it is almost dead. Our fur industry has been drastically cut back.

Hopef ully maybe the government through this committee will look at some way of addressing that, because that is a good innovative idea. If you looked at northern Manitoba, the fur that we have seen to make coats and whatever have you, most of them were trapped in northern Manitoba. Yet, if you go back right through history, there has never even been an opportunity of setting up a tanning factory. You know, when you have such a high labour pool, with a little bit of training dollars to train an individual to do the cutting, the tanning and stuff right in the North, that could create a lot of jobs.

I know that the industry right now is suffering. It is on a rebound, from what I have heard, and from the stats that I have read, that the trappers are lobbying and putting together their own ads and trying to sway the antifur people. Apparently, it is working to some degree. I personally hope that it picks up, because in my culture fur has always been very important. When I was a child, I remember going to school wearing a caribou coat and mukluks. That was the way we dressed. It was not dressed for show, it was because that is the warmest thing possible, you know, and very durable.

If it rebounds, I hope that we will consider looking at setting up a manufacturing and maybe even a nice big sewing centre tied in with that tanning plant right in northern Manitoba somewhere, because that will create a lot of jobs. Those are the kinds of things we have to look at. The announcement I was going to speak a little bit about was the whole space project for Churchill. It had a lot of fanfare when it was announced, and now the community is wondering if it will be or will not be. I personally hope it will be, because it has a lot of potential there.

The community of Churchill at one time used to have about 6,000 people living there. It used to have the army, navy, air force, and it was a thriving, thriving community. Now you go up there, it fluctuates anywhere between 800 people and 900 people. That is a heck of a drop. If you took that percentage and applied it to Winnipeg,

893 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 3, 19 92 what would you have? You know, it would almost be like a ghost town. Churchill has a lot to offer. When I was growing up, there used to be ships that would come in to take grain back, but when they were coming in they used to bring liquor and cars and other products that were made over in Europe, and there used to be export-import at the same time. I do not know for what reason or what happened, but the ships started arriving empty and just taking grain back over to England and various European communities.

That is the kind of innovative Idea that I hope this committee will seriously look at and address, because even if you got to go into the export-import business, how many jobs do you think that will create? It is not only jobs that benefit people from Churchill, because a lot of the individuals that used to come up there and work at the harbour board and the grain elevator, they were from all over. There were some from Saskatchewan, and a lot of them were from around Winnipegosis area, Dauphin area, and that created a lot of employment opportunities for these people that went up there.

Not only that, it also created business opportunities. People went up there, set up businesses, and the people that were there, they had to buy their clothes and their food and rented houses while they were up there for the shipping season, because a lot of them came up with their families. Some did not, but a lot of them did. Because of that experience, a lot of them stayed there even after the shipping season was over. They got to like the place. The children enjoyed the school.

Some of them are even now out of work and still living there; they have made it their home. * (1 550) That is the kind of stuff that we really should be looking seriously at when you look at that innovative centre. To me innovation means new ideas-and even to shore up some existing ideas, to expand some ideas that are in place. In northern Manitoba we have a lot of mines, a lot of mining activities. I am sure a lot of these mines are still using the equipment and technology probably from, I do not know, it could be 19 30, 194 0.

If there was some way of assisting these companies into modern production and modern techniques, it probably would be easier to access orebodies and create new mines and expand some of the mines there and create more employment opportunities. I think that is what this, to me anyway, whole bill is all about. I could rant and rave and be negative and talk about this, but I do not want to do that because there are some good things which could happen out of this. It all depends on what happens now.

We have had different committees and different organizations that were put together by, not only this government, all governments. A lot of times, yes, they were just window-dressings, and there was just public relations efforts, and nothing really came about. This time around, I am hoping that something positive will happen. It does not matter what political stripe you carry. We know what is happening out there, and I am sure you do, and so do the Uberals. There are 57,000 people out of work that need jobs-as simple as that. If we could find jobs for them, however, we could do it.

I have to get back on the whole education because that is the whole key, otherwise, like our youth today, they struggle through school, and they try to save enough money to go back to university for the next term. It is getting harder, and harder, and harder to find jobs for our youth because right now, the way the economy is, they are competing with adults who have much more experience. Right now, a lot of people will take any job that comes around just in order to try and make ends meet.

So, right now, it is not only students competing against students, some of them are competing against their mothers and fathers, and so it is very difficult.

The cutbacks in the ACCESS programs, when you look at the whole Idea of your Economic Innovation and Technology Council, they are not only going to be addressing the educational needs for emplo yment op portu nities say per se in Winnipeg or a lot of the bigger centres, a lot of those students, especially aboriginal students, who were attending these ACCESS programs, a lot of them would have gained employment opportunities through aboriginal organizations and within their own aboriginal communities.

With the whole drive right now by aboriginal leaders and aboriginal people of the wish of aboriginal self-government, that should create a lot of employment opportunities for aboriginal youth and abori ginal people. If that ever comes about-some day it will, I do not know when-but if it does come about, if you are an aboriginal person and if you have a marketable skill or any experience

March 3, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 894 in management, counselling, teacher, doctor, lawyer, what have you, you will be signed up so fast, because the opportunities will be there. You know, like we even talk about a new justice system for aboriginal people. Well, if that comes about, who will be the judges? Who will be the lawyers? Who will be the magistrates? Who will be the counsellors who will have to deal with offenders? That is the kind of thing that I think this bill could be looking at seriously and addressing.

I have a hard time when, like when I was reading this bill here where it says, suppo rt economic restructuring through innovation and the development and commercialization of technology. What does that mean? That could mean anything. It could mean like what my colleague was saying. It could be a body that just hands out grants to companies and manufacturers and say, well, here, we will give you X number of million dollars and you should create X number of jobs. I think it should go a little beyond that. There should be something that looks at getting our youth trained and employed.

That way when you do hand out say a million dollars, maybe a little of that could be set aside for new research and development far in advance so that we could say that we will need 20 rocket scientists, for example. (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Acting Speaking, in the Chair) That way when the youth who are attending universities, when they do have a choice of which avenue they want to go, some of them might start enrolling to become a rocket scientist if there is a job opportunity at the end. A lot of the youth would love to stay home. They would love to stay here in Manitoba.

Not everybody wants to relocate to the United States or maybe even further on with the free trade to Mexico. A lot of the Tories, as Liberals, as NDP, we all have families, we all have children, and I know I would like to be close to my children and my children would like to be close to me. I am sure that goes for everybody in this House. Nobody has that special tie or commitment. I am sure we all feel that same.

I think if we made it easier for our children to accomplish that, I think that should be the goal of all parties, not just who is in government. pnterjection] Well, I do not think that is a right-wing comment. I think that is just a common-sense comment. Some of the other things that we could be looking at, you know like, we talk about cost; it costs government so much money. I heard one of my colleagues from across the way, who was yelling spend, spend, spend. At lot of the time, to spend a little money, you save a lot in the end. [interjection] No, no I did not mention any names.

I just heard it from someone, I do not know who it was, but sometimes you spend a little, you save a lot, you know, because of the whol� An Honourable Member: That is not good management. Mr. Hlckes: Well, it is not good management but sometimes it makes common sense. An Honourable Member: Good management is common sense. Mr. Hlckes: Well, if you look, for example, at one bill that we have been trying to get proclaimed, Bill 91 , the antisniff bill.

Without that bill being proclaimed, city police or any law enforcement, if they are not able to put in stronger measures to stop people from abusing drugs-a good example was my colleague on the steps, you know. Somebody attacked him. Someone attacked him right on the steps. Maybe that individual is coming to the steps of our Legislature and saying, hey, maybe it is time to do something about us sniffers. We want help. Maybe that was the message.

I do not know, but if we continue letting people abuse Lysol and glue and sniff, how much more does it cost us in the end when we have to hospitalize these individuals, keep them in hospitals or mental institutions, keep them incarcerated? How much does that cost? It costs a heck of a lot more than what it costs us to proclaim a bill that has already been passed in two years.

The other thing that I hope will be part of what this whole committee will be looking at is when we talk about innovative ideas, the aboriginal community in Winnipeg right now have one of the most innovative ideas that I have ever heard of yet. That is to put a lot of the aboriginal organizations and agencies under one roof, and that is the old CP station. The aboriginal people have been asking for that, and they were very close to getting that through when there were Core Area dollars in place. * (1 600) I have not heard too much more, but I have heard that it is very close to being accomplished again.

I hope it does, because that is very innovative. It ties in directly with whatthe committee should be looking at and dealing with, because then we are talking

895 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 3, 19 92 about jobs. That is what this committee is all about, to create employment opportunities and educational opportunities to meet the demand for those new jobs. Mr. Acting Speaker, that is why I hope this committee will seriously look at where is that CP station and where is it going, because that will be like an umbrella for all aboriginal people to mix ideas and to share ideas, and through that, once they get the agencies in place-you are talking about social workers; you are talking about management people; you are talking about clerks. It could be anything.

They can even set up their own little research group. It could be in the education area; it could be in the health field area; it could be any area you want, because those are the kind of ideas that we need to hear, not only from government ministers or govemment-elected people. We need to hear what the people out there-a lot of the time the people out there have some good ideas.

A lot of our elders and seniors have been through a lot, and a lot of times they come up with some dam good ideas, because they have seen, and they have experienced a lot, and a lot of them are more than willing to share with us, because that is the only way we are going to progress. Another good example was yesterday, during Question Period-well, it was not yesterday, it was Friday-about the Cross-Cultural Counselling Unit. That whole unit, that whole initiative could be expanded even further. That could be expanded further. It does not have to only stay here in Manitoba.

What I heard was we were the only province In Canada that had a Cross-Cultural Counselling Unit, and they were able to translate in 1 0 different languages. Now why could not an idea like that expand? We could set up a training centre and use the individual counselling unit and the individual model, how they were able to accomplish that, and set up some specialized training programs, and bring people in from Nova Scotia or Ontario or B.C. or Halifax or wherever you want. Utilize the resources we have. That is innovation. It does not always have to be big, millions of dollars, mega-projects, all the time.

Sometimes you bring people in and you have a team that will do the instructing and pass that knowledge on. Then they could go on and work wherever they are going to. Look how many jobs that would create if you just looked at our 10 provinces and two territories. Even if you looked at five for each, because the bottom line, and we hear it over and over and over, whether it is federal or provincial taxes, it comes from our pockets, so if we are able to help other provinces and even to charge a small fee to create revenues for ourselves in Manitoba, why not?

There is nothing wrong with that, because the more you share your knowledge, the more other provinces will share theirs with us. That whole emphasis, the Min ister of Hi ghways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger) went down to Ottawa to meet with the minister. That was a big step on his part, and we were hoping that he would come back with something. I hope he does come up with something, because Churchill could be one of the most valuable communities that we have in all of Manitoba. It could open a lot of doors for us here.

I have seen ships, personally myself from Russia, from Poland, from England, from all over the countries, so if we get into some kind of a trade with these countries, a lot of the time those could be shipped directly from Churchill, because in a lot of cases it is the shortest route. The Minister of Highways and Trans

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-3-21
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 3rd hansardpdf 21.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e6f8108f911ff696677f2fb31546a60cc6e48722

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