Manitoba Hansard — 15 April 1998 (Sitting 31, 36th Legislature, 4th Session)

36-4-31

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVIII No. 31 - 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, Apri115, 1998 ISSN 0542-5492

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATH LIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANIT OBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirktield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Charleswood Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C.

P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

1629 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, April 15, 1998 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Winnipeg Hospitals Food Service-Priv atization Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Sonia Taylor, Ken Cox, Bill Griffin and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to put an end to the centrali zation and privatization of Winnipeg hospitals food services. Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Devin Reid, D.

Prazno and Adrien Dancer praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to put an end to the centrali zation and privatization of Winnipeg hospitals food services. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Winnipeg Hospitals Food Service-Privatization Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway). It complies with the rules and practices of the House (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT the Urban Shared Services Corporation (USSC) has announced plans to privatize laundry, food services and purchasing for the Winnipeg hospitals; and THAT it is estimated that more than 1,000 health care jobs will be lost over the next year as a result, with many more privatized in the next two or three years; and THAT under the terms of the contract, Ontario businesses will profit at the expense of Manitoba's health care system; and THAT after construction of a food assembly warehouse in Winnipeg, chilled, prepared food will be shipped in from Ontario, then assembled and heated before being shipped to the hospitals; and THAT people who are in the hospital require nutritious and appetizing food; and THAT the announced savings as a result of the contract have been disputed, and one study by Wintemute Randle Kilimnik indicated that, "A considerable number of studies have compared costs of service delivery in health care between self-operation (public sector) and privatization.

Invariably, privatization is more expensive. "; and THAT no one in Manitoba seems to benefit from this contract, especially patients. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospital food services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes). It complies with the rules and practices of the House (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT the Urban Shared Services Corporation (USSC) has announced plans to privatize laundry, food services and purchasing for the Winnipeg hospitals; and

1630 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15, 1998 THAT it is estimated that more than I, 000 health care jobs will be lost over the next year as a result, with many more privatized in the next two or three years; and THAT under the terms of the contract, Ontario businesses will profit at the expense of Manitoba's health care system; and THAT after construction of a food assembly warehouse in Winnipeg, chilled, prepared food will be shipped in from Ontario, then assembled and heated before being shipped to the hospitals; and THAT people who are in the hospital require nutritious and appetizing food; and THAT the announced savings as a result of the contract have been disputed, and one study by Wintemute Randle Kilimnik indicated that, "A considerable number of studies have compared costs of service delivery in health care between self-operation (public sector) and privatization.

Invariably, privatization is more expensive. "; and THAT no one in Manitoba seems to benefit from this contract, especially patients. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospital food services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Madam Spea ker: Dispense.

THAT the Urban Shared Services Corporation (USSC) has announced plans to privatize laundry, food services and purchasing for the Winnipeg hospitals; and THAT it is estimated that more than I,OOO health care jobs will be lost over the next year as a result, with many more privatized in the next two or three years; and THAT under the terms of the contract, Ontario businesses will profit at the expense of Manitoba's health care system; and THAT after construction of a food assembly warehouse in Winnipeg, chilled, prepared food will be shipped in from Ontario, then assembled and heated before being shipped to the hospitals; and THAT people who are in the hospital require nutritious and appetizing food; and THAT the announced savings as a result of the contract have been disputed, and one study by Wintemute Randle Kilimnik indicated that, "A considerable number of studies have compared costs of service delivery in health care between self-operation (public sector) and privatization.

Invariably, privatization is more expensive. "; and THAT no one in Manitoba seems to benefit from this contract, especially patients. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospital food services. *

(1335) PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted a certain resolution, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to.

April 15, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1631 TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, it is my pleasure to table the Fourth Annual Report of the Children's Advoca te for 1996-97. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture , Heritage and Citizenship): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review of the Manitoba Status of Women.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon twenty three Grades 11 and 12 students from the Vincent Massey Collegiate Exchange Program and directly from the Lycee Ste-Marie Des Champs from Toulouse, France, under the direction of Mrs. Lorraine Carter. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Vodrey). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. Bonjour.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Flood Compensation Premier's Apology Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, the Ernst & Young report on the 1997 flood gave credit to the people of Manitoba for their fight across our communities on behalf of their fellow citizens, but was very critical of the Filmon government, the Conservative government opposite in the way in which they handled a number of the elements of the flood. They were so critical in fact that the government chose to release the report on the afternoon of the federal budget to escape public accountab ility.

The report talked about the human elements not given proper consider ation. It stated that people endured unnecessary anxiety waiting for compensation programs to get them back on their feet. I would like to ask the Premier today: will he apologize today in this Chamber for the criticisms that have been made by an independent review, the Ernst & Young review, and apologize to those victims of the flood that suffered through the lack of consid eration of the human elements of this flood? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, first and foremost, this government is always interested in improving what it has done and what it does do throughout its period of time in of fice, and therefore, we did commission the Ernst & Young report to give us a thorough review of all the things that were done during that flood event.

Madam Speaker, I know that all Manitobans understand very well that this flood, which was the worst civil disaster in this province's history, was indeed a flood of epic proportions that had not been seen this century in Manitoba, obviously stressed all of the various elements of our ability to respond.

Madam Speaker, we have a Manitoba Emergency Management Organization that I believe consis ts of about 14 staff on a normal basis that was required to marshall the efforts of not only some tens of thousands of volunteers, but 18 different government departments, 17 municipal governments, federal public service that included areas such as Transport Canada, Department ofNational Defence and so on and so forth. It was an enormous effort.

I have had people from all over Canada, including people from the military, tell us what an incredible job was done, that not one single life was lost, that above all, people's health and safety and circumstances were put first and foremost, that no effort was spared to attempt to ensure that we did everything possible to protect human life and keep it saf e during that period.

During all of those efforts, Madam Spea ker, obviously there was not a possibility of doing all of the paperwork, all of the administration, all of the other various aspects of it, and so if some people felt that somehow, some way a better job could have been done, I apologize to them for that effort. All I can say is that nobody spared any effort. Nobody spared any effort on the part of government or its departments to try and meet the tests, tests of challenges that had never been

1632 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15, 1998 faced in the history of this province, and I do not apologize for that. I do regret, however, that the Leader of the Opposition wants to make some cheap politics of it, Madam Speaker. Mr. Doer: Perhaps if the Premier followed our advice in this House early on, on some of the matters of compensation, something that took them six or eight months to follow, a lot of flood victims would have been in much better shape. Madam Speaker, the report also states that this Premier (Mr.

Filmon), this government, this cabinet did not adopt a 1994 report that was placed in front of them, and it goes on in a number of places to cite the mistakes that were made. *

(1340) Water Comm ission Interim Report Release Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): On March 31, 1998, the government received the Water Commission interim report. I would like to know why, two weeks after the report has been received by the government, the government, the Premier has not had this report released to the public. We had to work very hard to get the government to review and reveal its own evidence that was given initially in private to the government-appointed Water Commission. We found this report released on the day of the federal budget, Madam Speaker.

I know the Premier was not playing politics with the release of that report, heaven forbid. Would the government now release the interim report which many flood victims are awaiting? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I intend to release and be responding to the interim report of the Water Commission within a very few days. Flood Compensation Semenchuk Family Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, Mr. and Mrs. Semenchuk, an 80-year-old couple, a year after the flood are stiii waiting to rebuild their lives and restore their situation.

They still are not able to recover from the flood, as I say, a year later. Of course, many of the reports, many of the recommendations and the analyses that were provided in the Ernst & Young report talk about the human dimensions and the lack of preparedness of the government on the rebuilding of lives for flood victims. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon) why a year later this family is stiii begging the provincial government and begging the Premier for support and help to rebuild their lives, Madam Speaker. Hon.

Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): I think, as the Premier pointed out, this flood of 1997 was probably the largest civil disaster, was the largest civil disaster this province has ever seen. And yes, we are constantly trying to work with the people trying to return to their homes to rebuild their lives, and we also, the staff of the Manitoba Emergency Management Organization, are out there with an understanding, with compassion, willing to work with the individual people whose homes are in a process of being rebuilt to help them work through the process.

We have countless numbers of people from other departments that are out there in terms of counselling, working with people, trying to help them deal with the aftermath of the flood. So, Madam Speaker, this government has done everything it can do in terms of trying to help people get back on their feet. Manitoba Telecom Services Annual Meeting-Min ister's Proxy Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): With a new question, Madam Speaker.

Last week we asked what action the government took pursuant to their golden share at last year's annual meeting, and 20 times yesterday-we went back through Hansard-we asked: did the minister or a representative hold the golden share by proxy at the 1997 meeting? Madam Speaker, would the Premier (Mr. Filmon) today confirm that Mr. Jules Benson was in fact the person that attended the annual meeting in 1997 and held the proxy vote as designated by the minister responsible for the golden share? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Well, Madam Speaker, I thank the Leader of the Opposition

April 15, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1633 for that question, and I am prepared to go one step further today and to table a copy of a proxy, issued on behalf of the Province of Manitoba for use at the 1997 annual and special meeting of the shareholders of Manitoba Telecom Services, appointing Mr. Julian D. Benson or, failing him, J. Patrick Gannon to represent the Province of Manitoba.

As I have indica ted on many occasions, it does give very specific direction on the voting of the special share, and it goes on to suggest that the persons above named are specifically directed to vote on behalf of the undersigned in the following manner: on the election of directors, vote for the four persons nominated by the Minister of Finance on behalf of the Crown in right of the Province of Manitoba set forth in Information Circular accompanying the notice of meeting, being Robert M. Chipman, N. Ashleigh Everett, Donald H. Penny, D. Samuel Schel lenberg.

That is a copy of the proxy that I am tabling right nO\V. *

(1345) Mr. Doer: I am extremely disappointed in the cover up we had last week when we asked the government what action they took and yesterday-[int erjection] Well, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) would not know a justice issue if it hit him, Madam Speaker- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I would ask that the member opposite retract that. I do not think that was called for. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

On the point of order raised by the honourable Minister of Justice, the honourable minister does not have a point of order; however, this is a very sensitive issue, as many are in this Chamber, and I would ask all members to exercise caution when directing questions and refrain from singling out individuals so that it causes disruption in the Chamber. The honourable Leader of the official opposition, on the same point of order. Mr.

Doer: Madam Speaker, you should, as Chair of this Chamber, ensure that members do not heckle in the middle of questions, which was the first intervention in the question being raised, and to cite only one side of the House again is in our view not representing all the interests of all the elected members here in this Chamber again. Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Justice, on the same point of order. Mr. Toews: Well, Madam Speaker, I simply make that point. This member consis tently does that to me.

The last time he criticized me it was on account of where I grew up, where I was born, my country of origin, by criticizing where I was born. You know, I do not think that is appropriate to criticize me because I was born in a country other than Canada, and yet he does that, and now he says things like this. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I have repeatedly cautioned members on both sides of this House to stop having debate across the floor of the Chamber when a member has been recognized to either pose a question or respond to a question asked.

I would ask once again for the co-operation of all honourable members in being more attentive to our rules to ensure that there is no disruption when one is posing a question or responding to same. * * * Mr. Doer: On 20 occasions yesterday we asked the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Finance to inform us of who was holding the proxy vote, because under

Section 10 of the act, which we raised last week, and under the by-laws, which we raised yesterday, the minister holding the golden share has a responsibility to either exercise a vote or by direction through proxy have that vote represented at the annual meeting. I would like to ask the Premier why he allowed his Minister of Finance on 20 occasions yesterday to not answer the question dealing with the proxy vote, and why is the government not honest with the people of Manitoba that the Minister of Finance does have power

1634 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April IS, I998 under the telecom act and does have responsibilities to either vote or exercise a proxy on issues related to the telecom company? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, not surprisingly the Leader of the Opposition is dead wrong with the information he brings to this Chamber today. Again, that is a pattern that certain members of his party frequent in this Assembly. That was one of my concerns yesterday in terms of being absolutely certain when I provide information to this House- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable Minister of Finance, to comple te his response. * (1350 ) Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, as I was going to say, to be absolutely certain, when we provide answers to questions that they are in fact I 00 percent accurate. That is something we all take pride in on this side of the House. In terms of the issue of the special share of the separate class, the only issue that that special share, separate class voted on and was entitled to vote on at the annual meeting in I997 was to nominate and elect the four directors that I have read into the record. Those are the facts and that is the situation.

The information that the Leader of the Opposition has just provided is dead wrong. Mr. Doer: Is the minister trying to tell this House that he did not remember signing a document a year ago indica ting that Jules Benson, a person whom we asked directly to him yesterday in Hansard in Question Period, is he trying to tell us that he did not remember giving Mr. Benson the proxy vote, Madam Speaker, or is he telling us yesterday he was trying to cover up the truth from the people of Manitoba? Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, what I have already told the Leader of the Opposition is, unlike some members on his side of the House, when I provide information I want to provide absolutely accurate information. I have taken the steps to provide copy of the documentation today. The Leader of the Opposition will notice that two individuals are referenced in the proxy, the one that is directly appointed, Mr. Julian D. Benson, or failing him, the Deputy Minister of Finance, Mr. J. Patrick Gannon. So I have provided that information to the House today.

I notice, Madam Speaker, he did not come back to the issue that he raised as part of a second question where he is putting absolutely incorrect information on the record. That is the concern I had yesterday, and when I return today I return with the facts and I return with all ofthe accurate information. Manitoba Telecom Services Annual Meeting-Min ister's Proxy Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, we are seeing a new definition in this House of political amnesia.

This minister, who a week ago could not remember signing the Order-in-Council, who yesterday was asked 20 times in this Legislature, and now expects us to believe that he was doing anything other than covering up yesterday. I would like to ask a follow-up, now he has come forward-after being asked 20 times-with the proxy form which appointed Mr. Jules Benson.

Will he also indicate that the proxy form indicates very cle arly, and I quote, that this does not limit the general authorization, that in fact Jules Benson had the full power vested in him under the proxy as the representative of the minister himself in regard to the Manitoba government special share at that meeting? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I think what the member for Thompson fails to do is to look at the act and to read Sections I 0 and II of the act, and I enco urage him to do that.

It spells out very cle arly where the special share from the separate class can vote separately, can effectively, for all intents and purposes, have a veto. Those are outlined very cle arly and I have read them into the record before: issues like the corporation cannot change its name; it cannot amalgamate with one or more other bodies. I could go on at length, but I am sure the member can take the time to look at Sections I 0 and 1I. When it came to the annual meeting in I997, the special share separate class only voted on one issue. -

April 15, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1635 That was the iss u e that I have already outlined in terms of both the election and the nomination of the four directors that I have read into the record. It was not entitled to vote separately on any of the other issues that were before the an nual meeting at that particular point in time. Mr.

Ashton: Why is it this minister, who only a few days ago was trying to suggest that the only thing that was happening at that meeting was limited in terms of the appointment of the four members, why is he now admitting that indeed Jules Benson was present, represented the government as a voting share? Will he now admit the truth, that the former president of the Conservative Party, his right-hand person, was there, a close associate of Tom Stefanson, that indeed Jules Benson was very much a part of making his brother a millionaire through the stock option program? Point of Order Mr.

Ashton: A point of order, Madam Speaker. indeed should have said that Jules Benson was the treasurer of the Conservative Party, not the president, and I would like to correct that on the record. *

(1355) Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson did not have a point of order. * * * Mr. Stefanson: Well, Madam Speaker, again the member for Thompson makes my point by having to stand on that point of order and correct himself, again with misinformation that he and his coll eagues continually put on the record. I think it is very important that everybody in this House understand what the provisions of the special share do allow for. They allow us to nominate and elect four directors to MTS. We have done just that and I have named the individuals.

They allow us in instances outlined in Sections 10 and 11 of The MTS Reorganization Act to vote independent of the common shareholders as a sep arate class but only in those instances. I encourage the member and his coll eagues to read where those instances apply, and I have already indicated at the 1997 annual meeting those inst ances only applied in one case and that was the nomination and election of directors. The third element that it allows us to do is to have one vote along with the 70 million other shares towards all of the operational issues. So we can have one vote out of 70 million shares.

We chose when it came to operational issues not to exercise that vote because they should be decided by the common shareholders, by the people who invested in the company. I want to tell the member for Thompson that, when it came to the ratification of the stock option plan, 93 .7 percent of the people who invested in MTS, the common shareholders, voted in support of that plan. Those are the facts, and that is what happened. Mr.

Ashton: Since the minister is now trying to untangle the tangled web that he has been weaving, will he now confirm that last week he denied and yesterday denied the presence of anyone on behalf of the government, that today he is confirming that Jules Benson was there, Jules Benson was voting, indeed that he has not been telling the truth to this Legislature for the last week? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, the only tangled web is in the mind of the member for Thompson. I did not put any inco rrect information on the record, and I certainly did not lie to this Chamber.

I have taken the steps to provide additional information today, to provide a copy of the proxy that outlines very clearly who the two individuals were, the one that is directly appointed and the one that is the alternate to represent the province. I am trying to explain to these members where that special share, that separate class, has certain provisions. They do not seem to understand that. I am certainly prepared to answer as many questions as they have to ask to try to help them understand where it applies, where it does not apply.

But at the end of the day when it came to the vote for the stock option plan that they are asking about, the people who invested, the common shareholders, 93.7 of those who voted, voted in favour of that stock option plan, and we, under our special share as a separate cl ass, were not entitled to vote separately on that issue. Those are the facts.

1636 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15, 1998 Magnetic Resonance Imaging Weekend Service Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, on the weekend, both I and the minister were cont acted by a family whose son required an MRI on an emergency basis over the weekend and was unable to obt ain an MRI over the weekend. We raised the issue of the MRI short ages for ye ars. We raised it in the fall; we raised it in Ja nu ary. The minister said he was going to do something about it. We see th a t we have the s ame amount ofMRi s as not even Latin Amer ica n countr ies.

How is it th a t a child who required a potenti ally lifes aving MRI could not get it on the weekend in the city of Winnipeg? Ron. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Spe aker, I am not sure if the member-[inter jection ] Well, the member is referencing a matter. I know I was home; I was working on my house. I did not spe a k to the family partic ularly this weekend. I am not doubting th at they spoke to the member for Kildon an. I would have liked an opportunity to get the speci fic inform ation to be answering the member's question. As the member knows, this was a holid a y weekend.

There are things th a t happen in the system. I would like the opportunity to investig ate it. *

(1400) Mr. Chomiak: Can the minister, when he gets the opportunity to invest igate, expl ain to the people of Manitob a how it is th at we have one of the lowest r atios of MRi s in the country and th a t last weekend, Frid ay, Saturday, Sunda y and Mond ay, the MRI at St. Boniface was not oper ating, not available to Manitob a residents and th at, for lack of st aff, th a t is the re ason why the MRI was not oper ating? Is th a t not un accept able after ye a r after ye a r after ye a r of Tory so-c alled he alth reform in this province? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, I th ank the member for the opportunity to investig ate the particul ar matter. This is not an issue of which I am person ally aware at this point. As the member may know, the MRI, the one th a t is currently oper ating in the province, is oper ated by, I believe, the St. Boniface Rese arch Foundation. I am not sure wh a t arr angements are made in terms of having th a t available, and I will ende avour to check into th a t bec ause I agree with the member it is an impo rtant serv ice. I am not sure wh a t the specific di fficulty was.

It is the first time th a t I have he ard of this particul a r problem, and I will ende avour to investigate it bec a use the member is right. If there is an emergency situ ation in which th a t is required, it should be available, and we will want to make sure th a t it is in future. Health Care System Patients Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): My final supplement a ry on a rel a ted question: is it now government policy th a t the reason we have long waiting lists and people in the hallw a ys is be cause th a t is wh a t people want? I am quoting from the comm ents of the member for Pembin a (Mr.

Dyck), who said: I checked this out the other day. Th ree people lying in a hospit al; they all indic ated they wanted to be there. And I am visiting and a nurse comes out and says would they like to go back to their rooms as of yet and they said: no, we like it here; we like the activity th a t is in the hallw ay. Is th a t now government policy th a t in fact people want to be in the hallw a y bec a use they enjoy it? Point of Order Ron.

James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, you often remind us about the guidelines th a t we have laid down for the conduct of the putting of questions as well as the putting of answers in th i s House. The honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) is always reminding us about the rules about how we are supposed to answer questions, but the ho nourable member for Kildon a n knows the rules.

He gets to ask questions in this House on almost a daily basis, and he knows th a t a supplementary question ought to be a question and not some rambling dissert ation comple te with quotations from Hans ard and so on. He knows th at; his se atm ate, the member for Thompson, knows th at. Yet the rules are better known for the ir bre ach th a n the i r obse rvance around here, especi ally on th a t side of the House. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, on the same point of order. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On the same point of order, Madam Speaker, I am not quite

April 15, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1637 sure what the government House leader was referencing, because our critic did ask about some specific statements made in the House by the member. In fact, the member went on to say that it would make a very beautiful pic ture out there of people lying in the hallway. I was quite surprised when I heard the commen ts, and I think it is fairly appropriate for our Health critic to ask if this in any way is either the personal view of the member or this is in some way some new policy on behalf of the government that people lying in hallways is actually a good thing.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable government House leader, I would remind the honourable member for Kildonan that indeed a final supplementary question should consist of a single question. * * * Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I would be delighted to respond to the member for Kildonan, because I think again he has taken the statement of the member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck) out of context absolutely, totally.

The member for Pembina spoke to me about this matter privately and pointed out that, upon visiting a relative in a particular Winnipeg hospital where those individuals were in single rooms, during part of the day they had asked and were moved out to the hallway so they could be with other people. His comme nt was how easy it could be-because he visited those people during that time-for a reporter to walk in, take a picture and make a case. That is absolutely true.

The member has not denied nor do we deny that we had problems in the hospital system this winter, but to take the member's commen ts out of statement does a disservice to anyone who respects fact and truth. Video Lottery Terminals Community Referendums Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for Lotteries. There was a Gaming Commission report that came down, and one of the recommendations was that municipalities should be allowed through some form of ref erendum possibly to determine whether or not they want VL Ts in their municipalities.

Given that we have municipal elections coming up this year, this fall, is the government prepared to go on record as to whether or not they will support municipalities that want to have referendums in their local communities? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, the member for In kster references a report done by the Lottery Policy Review Comm ittee chaired by Mr. Larry Desjardins.

Some 14 Manitobans from a good cross-section of our communities represented on that comm ittee made a number of recommendations and, as he knows, we have implemented a number of those recommendations. One of them did refer very specifically to the whole issue of referendums. As well, one of them was also the establishment of an independent Gaming Control Commission.

We have established that Gaming Control Commission, and one of the first items referred to them was this whole issue of a referendum, to do the necessary research, to see what is happening in other jurisdictions, to have discussion with individuals and communities affected, municipal organizations and so on. I believe that process is currently underway. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, will the Minister of Finance then indicate very cle arly to municipalities that are looking at having potential for a referendum of this issue that the government would indeed respect the results of the referendum? Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I think our first step should be to wait for the report from the Gaming Control Commission. They are having the con sultations and discussions with individuals, communities, organizations. They are doing the research, and we should see very specifically what that report ultimately recommends. As we have indica ted to this House, one of the responsibilities of that committee is to provide research, to provide advice to this government, and we will certainly take that issue very seriously.

We recognize the concerns being raised about potentially holding some referendums, and there is a need to get on with

1638 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15, 1998 addressing that issue. We cert ainly are prepared to do that as a government, and we are encouraging the Gaming Control Commission to move that issue along. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, will the Minister of Finance ackn owledge the need for the government to be very clear on a very simple question of: will the government respect communities that decide through referendum that they do not want to have VL Ts in those communities? Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, we certainly have a great deal of respect for people elec ted at all levels of government, whether it is municipal or school divisions or whatever, but again, I think the first step should be to wait till we get the report and the recommendations from the Gaming Control Commission. We recognize, for some of the reasons that the member mentions, there are municipal elections coming up in the fall. There are some reasons that that issue should be moved along.

I believe that the Gaming Control Commission, while they have many other issues to address, are cert ainly addressing this issue in a very responsible fashion, and we await the report from that commission. Royal Winnipeg Ballet Attendance-Lo ndon, England Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, the annual minimum wage in Manitoba is $11,200. A single parent on social assistance with two children lives on $11,700. The Manitoba crafts guild struggles on $18,000, yet the Minister of Culture (Mrs. Vodrey) and the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr.

Downey) spent a whopping $4 1,500 of taxpayers' money for their Winnipeg Ballet junket to London last October. An Honourable Member: $40,000? Ms. McGifford: $4 1,500. · I would like to ask the Minister of Culture the question she failed to answer last December and ask her: how many other Tory MLAs, ministers and staff members attended the ballet in London, and who are they? In addition to the Premier (Mr. Filmon), of course; we know he was there. Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Madam Speaker, the last time this was raised in the Legislature I was very happy to talk to the member about some of the work that was undertaken when I attended in both England and Scotland and had meetings with the Canadian High Comm issioner, and it was in fact a very productive opportunity. I have in fact answered her in writing as well, but I attended and the deputy minister attended a performance of the ballet in London and also in Edinburgh. *

(1410) Ms. McGifford: Madam Speaker, since the minister did not answer the first question, maybe she could answer the second one she failed to answer last December. I would like to ask the minister-s ince we know $4 1,500 does not include, for example, the Premier's expenses and presumably does not include those of other government members-if she has any idea of the total bill to the taxpayers incurred by her government last October in London. Mrs. Vodrey: I have provided for the member information regarding expenses as Minister of Culture and also expenses which were required by my deputy minister.

I am very happy to tell the member that, in addition to support to the Royal Winnipeg Ballet by attending a performance, which in fact is I believe a very important role for Manitoba, as well I was very happy to do other work while there: meetings with the Canadian High Commissio ner. meetings with the London and Scotland arts boards, meetings with the London Film Commission, a meeting with the United Kingdom's Minister of State responsible for film and to do a great deal of work in that time period on behalf of culture, heritage, citizenship and immigration for the people of Manitoba.

Andrew Wade Paupane kis Reduced Sentence Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): To the Minister of Justice, Madam Speaker. On April 3 there was a sentencing hearing in the Queen's Bench regarding a gang slaying. It was a manslaughter conviction of Andrew Ward Paupanekis where the judge, we understand, reduced the jail term down to four years by

April 15, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1639 an amount of two years based on the offender's word that he had renounced his gang affiliation, evidence that today is chall enged by the gang co-ordin ator himself from Stony Mountain and a sergeant of the homicide unit. My question to the minister is: since the minister likes to point fingers at the police, at judges, the federal government, who will he point fingers at for this matter, or will he take some responsibility for the outcome in this case? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I am quite aware of the case.

It was reported in the news media. I am advised by my deputy that our department is undertaking an appeal of that particular case. Gang Crimes Prosecution Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Will the minister then answer this question?

Will he not admit that he has no policy or direction in place for the specialized, vigorous and aggressive prosecution of serious gang crimes, as evidenced by the fact that even when asked, his department at the trial never chall enged the word of the of fender, never chall enged the principle underlying the reduction of the sentence, had no inf ormation about the accused and his gang affiliation, never made inquiries since 1996, never telephoned the gang co ordinator, never asked for an adjournment and never asked for a presentence report. When will they get serious about gangs, Madam Speaker? Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, the member for St. Johns is a member who has misrepresented the Crown attorneys' positions on a number of occasions. Indeed, the Crown attorneys' union had to write a letter and a news release asking him to clarify and to ask him to quit misrepresenting their positions. You know, I have great faith in those Crown attorneys. I know the particular Crown attorney, a Crown attorney of over 30 years. He is a very senior Crown attorney.

I have a high respect for that Crown attorney, and these people make decisions in the course of their presentations to the court. Whatever that Crown attorney did will be reviewed by the Court of Appeal, and I will review any results at that point. But I do not think it is appropriate to comment on this matter before the Court of Appeal hears it. Point of Order Mr. Mackintosh: A point of order, Madam Speaker.

Since justice begins with truth and honesty in the minister's office, I ask the minister, and I give him this opportunity to put it on the record, that at no time had any Crown attorney or association ever said I misrepresented any position of them. In fact, is this the same association that tells me that they find observations and suggestions from me to be valuable? Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Justice, on the same point of order. Mr. Toews: On the same point of order, Madam Speaker.

I can point to the exact news releases that they have made where this member has misrepresented their position, who has damaged, damaged the professional status of these Crown attorneys who dedicate their professional career to serving the people of Manitoba, and for him to make such a trite statement is disgusting. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns did not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts. * * * Mr. Mackintosh: I ask then the minister, rather than trying to deal with his thin skin, deal with the issues that Manitobans are having to deal with.

Would he now put in place a policy-and we are not talking about individual Crown attorneys. We are talking about support, direction, protocol from this government for the prosecutors. Will he put in place a position for the prosecutors for specialized, aggressive, vigorous prosecutions, so these kinds of outcomes do not have to be suffered by Manitobans? Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, I want to say that my predecessor, the member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Vodrey), in fact implemented that program, and the Crown attorneys have been following that policy direction in every case where it is applicable. I have great

1640 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15, 1998 confidence in what those Crown attorneys are doing, and I believe that the results of what they are doing, assisted by the policies of my predecessors in these areas, have been a tremendous benefit. You know, ifthere are issues of resources, we look at them; we address them. We are concerned not just about our Crown attorneys but indeed our police forces. I think our Crown attorneys and our police forces have been working together very, very well in ensuring that Manitoba is a saf e place to live and work. Post-Secondary Education Tuition Fee Policy Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, the Minister of Education has repeatedly broken election promises to provide fee policies for Manitoba students. Secondly, she has been part of a government which has allowed tuition fees to rise by 10 percent, 15 percen t, 20 percent and on into the millennium, and finally she is part of a government which has pursued a deliberate low-wage strategy for 10 years. I would like to ask the minister to confirm that the result of these combined policies is that in 1988 when this government came into office a first-year student needed 11 weeks offull-time work at minimum wage.

Ten years later that same student needs to find 19 weeks of full-time work at minimum wage just to pay the tuition, Madam Speaker. Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, my goodness, there were so many points raised in that question I do not know where to begin, but I will begin with the first point. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Education and Training, to complete her response. Mrs. Mcintosh: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I shall attempt to take the points point by point as I recall them arising.

I should indicate, first of all, in terms of tuition fees, that colleges in Manitoba have the second-lowest tuition fees in the country. In fact, in five years- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Wolseley, on a point of order. Point of Order Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, the question had one point. In 1988, it took 11 weeks of work to pay your fees; 10 years later, it takes 19 weeks. May I simplify the question for the minister. That is the question: 11 weeks versus 19 weeks, 10 years of Tory policy. Could she now answer that question? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Wolseley did not have a point of order. She was clarifying the question asked. * * * *

(1420) Mrs. Mcintosh: I should indicate, if we want to take a look, for example, at NDP Saskatchewan or NDP British Columbia, that in five years time if the predictions are correct by Red River Community Colle ge, for example, in five years time Red River Community College will reach the current level in Saskatchewan and they will never reach the level in British Columbia, the current level in British Columbia. That would be the difference between the way NDP governs their col leges and the way we govern our colleges.

So those comparisons that she likes to make, I think we should take a look at what the other provinces governed by her party do-much , much higher. It is fortunate in Manitoba that during our era there are plenty of jobs for students, and I can take the question as notice because I do not know the weeks that she is referring to. I do not know that they are correct because often the information presented in the

preamble is not correct. I will check it out and get back with a response to her. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired.

April 15, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1641 Speaker's Ruling Madam Speaker: I have a ruling for the House. On March 24, 1998, during Question Period, the opposition House leader raised a two-part point of order respecting an answer provided by the honourable Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach) to a question posed by the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk).

In the first part of the point of order, the honourable minister was called on to table a letter he referenced in the answer, and in the second part of the point of order, it was suggested that the latter part of the answer was inappropriate editorial comment . In reading the Hansard record, it is clear that the Minister of Rural Development did not read from a letter; therefore, he is not obligated to table it.

This is based on Beauchesne Citation 495(7) which indica tes that when a letter, even though it may have been written originally as a private letter, becomes part of a rec ord of a department, it becomes a public document and if quoted by a Minister in debate, must be tabled on request. A Manitoba precedent in a Speaker's ruling given on September 18, 1989, reinforces our parliamentary practice that in order for a minister to be required to table a letter, he or she must have quoted from it. Therefore, there was no point of order respecting the tabling of the letter.

Concerning the "editorial comm ent" made by the minister, having read Hansard, I would concur with the opposition House leader and rule that there was a point of order. When answering questions, the minister should deal with the matter raised in the question and should not provoke debate. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Youth Employment Mr. Denis Rocan (Gladstone): I would like to take this opportunity to raise an issue which is important to all members of this House, and that is youth employ ment. All of us have a vested interest in ensuring that our youth are happy and prosperous.

Happy young people obtaining summer employment is one way of achieving this goal. Right now, Manitoba's unemploy ment level is the lowest across Canada at 5. 2 percent, and our youth unemployment rate is the second lowest across the country. In an effort to further reduce our youth unemploy ment rate, I urge everyone to remember that now is the time when university and high school students are searching for summer employment. I want to encourage all business operators who may be in need of summer employees to register with the Youth Employment Service on Donald Street.

Any students in need of summer employment should contact this office and should also be sure they check the job postings at the University of Manitoba and the University of Winnipeg. I understand that there is an abundance of opportunities available to students who do not shy away from hard work. There are engineering and manage ment jobs, as well as tree-planting and truck-driving jobs. Moreover, the provincial government is once again sponsoring the summer Green Team initiative in both rural and urban areas.

Employers wishing to receive assistance employing a student under The Green Team program should contact the Department of Natural Resources for a sponsorship application. Making sure that our young people find summer employment is a priority which all of us should take seriously. The future of Manitoba is in the hands of these young people, and we need to give them every opportunity to succeed. Northern Airports Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): The provincial government recently announced that a special fund of $300,000 was being set up to assist 30 small southern airports.

The minister rightly stated capital projects improving lighting, navigational aids, runway rehabilitation and improvements to terminals are important at such airports. The NDP is pleased that the minister ack nowledges that, in light of the abandonment of airports by the federal government, action had to be taken to ensure that safety standards are maintained at all airports.

1642 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15, 1998 That being said, northerners and the NDP are rightly disappointed and concerned that not one additional cent is being dedica ted to ensuring that the 22 northern airports operated by the province are also up to modem standards. The northern airports are vital for most of the communities. Most have daily scheduled flights, and in many cases they are the only way in and out of the area. At times like this year, when the winter roads were cut short by warm weather, the airports are even more important.

Following the tragic air crash at Little Grand Rapids, there was unanimous desire for airport improvement. Even the minister agreed that Little Grand Rapids' airport needed to be replaced. Following our call for a task force to review the status of all northern airports, the province agreed to work with airlines, MKO and AMC. While there have been two meetings of the comm ittee, no comm itment has been made by the minister to spend additional funds this year, and no commi tment has been made to act on even the Little Grand Rapids' airport.

This is not what we expected last December and not what northerners need now. Apart from Little Grand Rapids, other airports need major work. Not only must this government get active on improving northern airports but also the federal government must be brought to the table and provide assistance under the airports capital assistance program. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Education Week Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): April 13 through 17 has been designated as Education Week in our province. It is a time for all of us to cel ebrate the positive happenings in our public schools.

I was read a remark that has long stayed with me, and I quote: It is the supreme art of the teacher to awaken the joy in creative expression and knowledge. These words by Albert Einstein remain as true today as they were when spoken. This is a time when we all focus on our common goal, the successful awakening of the joy in learning that resides within each child. Despite our different approaches and backgrounds, we all recognize the changing world our child ren live in. The current communica tion/information revolution has so shrunk our globe that every economic market is in some sense a global market.

It is not surprising then that education is seen as a key to unlock the door to prosperity. The success of awakening the joy in learning is the result of wonderful teachers, supportive parents, comm itted students and hardworking administrators. Each plays a direct or indirect role in teaching and learning or in creating the conditions for these act ivities to occur. Their contributions must be acknowledged, and I am pleased that in my consti tuency the Garden Valley School Division will, on April 24, cele brate Education Week at the Southland Mall in Winkler.

I would like to thank the organizers for creating this opportunity to cel ebrate Education Week. Thank you. Wolseley Gardening Society Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): I am pleased to draw the attention of members of this House to a national magazine, Canadian Gardening, which this month has published an

article on part of my constituency of Wolseley. Canadian Gardening has published an excelle nt illustrated

article by Wolseley writer Eva Weidman on the Wolseley Gardening Socie ty which, with its regular summer garden tours, has become an important element in our community's institutions. The

article notes that this is a community where left leaning politics are evident and that environmental issues and matters of the spirit are still preeminent. The

article goes on to say that the gardens are unique, blending colourful annuals with dependable perennials, shrubs and large shade trees that compli ment the architectural details of the homes built at a time when mouldings, frames and even window boxes were custom built. There are tiny yards that have been transformed into scented retreats, meditation gardens and public spaces that invite strangers to become neighbours.

Welcome to Wolseley where residents are planting the seeds of a thriving community. * (1430 ) The author goes on to note the work of Val Perry, Marilyn Craggs, Carrie and Tom Yudai, Liz Wolff, Sally Papso, Terie Langen, Gayda and Karl Loepp, John Lepp, Eleanor Thompson and indeed all the residents of Garfield Street.

April IS, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1643 Madam Speaker, there are many more, perhaps too many to mention, such as Mr. Barchett, Kathy Mci lroy and Jan Dalmyn. They know their work is much appreciated and much loved in the community. What we see in Canadian Gardening is a national recogn ition. It is really the bloom on the rose. Thank you. Bone Density Scan-Fu nding Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I rise to urge the government and the Minister of Health (Mr.

Praznik), in particular, to provide money to the Brandon General Hospital and/or the regional health authority in Westman or in the Brandon area to provide a bone scanning machine referred to as a densitometer. The minister may have received correspondence on this. I have received letters from many, many women in the Westman area who have indica ted that there are waiting lists and there is a great need for this particular machine.

I raised this matter last year with the minister, about waiting lists and people having to go to Minot to get service, and at that time I was assured that the government would eliminate the waiting list, but I understand today the waiting list has grown again, and people are waiting as many as two years, I understand, for this kind of diagnosis. The fact is, Madam Speaker, osteoporosis is a very serious disease, and the use of a bone scanning machine can help to detect and therefore prevent this dreaded disease that affects women in particular.

I have a letter from many people, including Miss Helen Riesberry of Brandon, and I would just read a couple of paragraphs from her letter very quickly: I am one who would benefit. I am in my 82nd year, have already broken a hip, a wrist, and a rib, three different falls, but so far no test facility is available. Brandon has a large population of seniors in need of this program. Current waiting time, I understand, is up to two years, and some patients have been advised to go to Minot. Please give consi deration to our hospital's request for this equipment and its operation. Yours sincerely, Helen Riesberry.

So I take this opportunity to urge the minister to pay attention to this matter, address the matter and provide the needed money so that this vital service can be provided to help the women in Westman detect osteoporosis and hopefully prevent that dreaded disease from occurring. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon.

James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, would you be so kind as to call the second readings for bills listed on page 4, and after this is completed, we would then proceed to debate on second readings, and I will await word as to which bills the opposition House leader might like to have us call this afternoon. An Honourable Member: Bill 4 to start with. Mr. McCrae: Bill 4 would be the next one after the introductions. Thank you. SECOND READINGS Bill 20- The Medical Amendment Act Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings), that Bill No. 20, The Medical Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi medicale, be now read a second time and referred to a comm ittee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Praznik: The College of Physicians and Surgeons of Manitoba has requested a number of housekeeping amendments to this act.

Although the compla ints and discipline provisions of the act were repealed and replaced during the 1996 legislative session, the col lege has now requested that several other provisions of the act be amended to bring the act up to date. Examples are allowing the colle ge to make a regulation respecting the amount of liability insurance that a member must have in force, increasing the fines for practising medicine without a lic ence or representing oneself as a medical practitioner. As well, regulatory bodies such as the col lege are now designated as trustees under The Personal Health Information Act.

The confidentiality

1644 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15, 1998 provision in The Medical Act is proposed to be replaced with one which permits discl osure of information in certain cir cumstances such as for the purpose of the administration of The Health Services Insurance Act or The Prescription Drug Cost Assistance Act or to a regulatory body in another jurisdiction. The maximum fine level for a breach of confidentiality is proposed to be $50,000, the same as under The Personal Health Information Act.

Madam Speaker, as I have indica ted, this piece of legislation is, by and large, housekeeping, and I look forward to the support of members on all sides for its passage. Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that debate be adjourned. *

(1440) Motion agreed to. Biii21 -The Commun ities Economic Development Fund Amendment Act Hon. David Newman (Minister charged with the administration of The Commun ities Economic Development Fund Act): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enos), that Bi1121, The Communities Economic Development Fund Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur le Fonds de developpement economique local), be now read a second time and be referred to a comm ittee ofthis House. Motion presented. Mr. Newman: I am pleased to put before the House today these amendments to The Communities Economic Development Fund Act. Madam Speaker, CEDF is a provincial Crown corporation mandated to enco urage economic develop ment in northern Manitoba through the provision of financial and other forms of assistance.

The fund is managed by a board of directors and general manager and is encouraged to apply strong business principles to both its programs and to its own administration. The amendment proposed today reflects a change to the way in which the fund creates its by-laws. The fund creates by-laws under

Section 15 of the act to (

a) determine the terms and conditions upon which financial assistance may be given, including assessing the security requirements, (

b) to prescribe the form in which applications are to be received and the information required therein, (

c) in the event the fund contemplates equity particip ation in a project, the terms and conditions under which it may participa te and the form of instrument it may use, and (

d) to generally determine how the board will function and regulate its own procedure. Under current legislation, by-laws are drafted and accepted by the board for approval by the Lieutenant Governor in Council. The proposed amendment allows for by-laws to be approved by the board, subject to disallowance by the government.

The effect of this change is to allow the board to react to situations within the fund's business environment in a timely and fiscally prudent manner subject to legislation, while providing government with the ability to review the fund's by laws and to react at any time if they appear to be inc ongruent with the direction for the fund by government. The simplified process allows the fund to act quickly to the needs of its cl ients and of its business and is comparable with the method in which by-laws are created in other autonomous agenc ies. I urge all honourable members to support this bill. Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 22- The Veterinary Services Amendment Act Hon. Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister ofHighways and Transportation (Mr. Findlay), that Bill 22, The Veterinary Services Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les soins veterinaires), be now read a second time and be referred to a commi ttee of this House. Motion presented.

April 15, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1645 Mr. Eons: Madam Speaker, the bill that I am , presenting before consi deration by honourable members on this occasion is one that has not been worked on for a number of years, that is, The Veterinary Services Act. I am advised by staff and by practicing veterinarians that as a result, there are a number of corrections to be made that understandably have created some difficulties, ambiguities and some deficiencies as the bill now stands.

There is another issue that has come up in the last little while as a result of a dissolution of a veterinary district that left something to be desired in terms of the legislation on the books under those cir cumstances. So, Madam Speaker, while this is not a, to quote my friend from Burrows, I believe it is, a bam burner, it is for the livestock industry and the growing livestock industry that we have and are creating in the province of Manitoba important legislation for the orderly regulation of veterinary services here in the province of Manitoba.

It does also touch, I might add- because of the close relationship that we have with the practitioners of veterinary services in Manitoba with the Department of Agriculture, in a kind of unique way, this is also

an act that applies to that professional body. I will have, of course, available to the comm ittee people from the Veterinary Services Branch to answer any specific questions that comm ittee members have, but I commend the bill for their consi deration and passage. Thank you. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 24- The Crop Insurance Amendment Act Hon. Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): I move, seconded by the honourable Minis ter of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), that Bill 24, The Crop Insurance Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur l'assurance-n!colte), be now read a second time and be referred to a comm ittee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Eons: Madam Speaker, the bill, any bill affecting the Manitoba Crop In surance Corporation is of significant importance to the agricultural community in the province of Manitoba. Crop insurance under this corporation has been offered to producers in Manitoba for almost 40 years now since 1960.

I am pleased to acknowledge and put on the record that it was of course a Progressive Conservative government with vision, a government with understanding ofthe peculiar needs of agriculture that created the corporation in the first place.

I am also glad to put on the record that over the years, different proposals, different fine tuning of the legislation has resulted that in this last year, and I certainly anticipate in the coming crop year that over 80 percent of our annually seeded crop is covered by this insurance program, and that offers-I do not want to exaggerate the situation, but it certainly offers some level of support in this our major safety net program. Madam Speaker, there are a number of issues that arise, as you expect, with an ongoing piece of legislation like the one that governs the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation.

There are some policy changes. As we get more and more sophisticated data with respect to soil types, yields, production, some of this data becomes very valuable and is saleable. In fact, the Crop Insurance Corporation has been selling some of this from time to time and earning revenue for it, and there is nothing wrong with it provided of course that confidentiality and the likes of that are fully and totally respected.

The Crop Insurance Corporation has requested, because the act currently is silent on the issue, that in some more formalized way it be ack nowledged as being a permissible activity on the part of the crop insurance management from time to time, if they see it to be advantageous to the corpora tion. There are some further minor kind of housekeeping things that you would expect in

an act when it is opened up, delegation of certain signing authorities, et cetera. Again, I will certainly have officials from the Crop Insurance Corporation available to comm ittee members as we examine the details of the proposed amendments. I recommend its speedy passage in this

1646 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri115, 1998 committee, so that it can come back to the House for final and third reading. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): I move, seconded by the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. *

(1450) Bill 25-- The Highway Traffic Amendment Act Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): I move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that Bill 25, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (Loi modifiant le Code de Ia route), be now read a second time and referred to a comm ittee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Findlay: I am pleased to introduce this bill to the House today. The amendments in this bill are generally of a housekeeping nature, and there are four issues. I will address each individually. The first is agreement regarding foreign lic ence exchange.

This relates to the creation of a new provision which will authorize the Minister of High ways to enter into agreement with foreign jurisdic tions regarding exchange of driver's licences. Under The Highway Traffic Act, Manitoba is limited to licence exchanges with Canadian and U.S. jurisdictions, Canadian Forces with European licences and foreign licences held by NATO personnel. Requests from countries such as Japan, Korea, Germany and France for lic ence exchange agreements have been received, but Manitoba has been unable to establish such agreements due to the lack of an appropriate legislative authority.

All Canadian jurisdictions other than Manitoba have bilateral or unilateral licence agreements with foreign countries like the ones I just mentioned: Japan, Korea, Germany and France. When an individual has exchanged a foreign licence for a licence in another Canadian jurisdiction, let us say B.C., that licence is recognized throughout Canada and may be excha nged for any other licence in any Canadian jurisdiction. The proposed amendments will allow the Minister of Highways in Manitoba to negotiate agreements with individual foreign jurisdictions.

Licence reciprocity wiii be considered only where there is sufficie nt proof that the foreign country's licence qualification procedures are at least equivalent or exceed Manitoba's current licence qualification restrictions. Reciprocity will also be limited to Class 5, which is car and light truck licences, or Class 6 licences which are for motorcyc lists. If a person would like a higher class of lic ence to drive a taxi or a semitrailer, for example, they will be required to undergo further driver licence examinations in Manitoba.

These amendments are in keeping with government's efforts to establish Manitoba as an aggressive player in the global marketplace. Failure to provide reciprocity licences exchange agreements with foreign jurisdictions could be seen as a deterrent to trade and immigration, especially in light of the move by two such agreements by all other Canadian jurisdictions. The second amendment proposal involves repeal of an economic regulatory measure in the trucking industry.

Currently a for-hire motor carrier is required to hold a fidelity bond for COD shipments, and the bond covers the carrier's legal liability for money it colle cts on behalf of shippers for COD shipments. There are a number of reasons why the department is repealing the requirement for a motor carrier to hold the fidelity bond.

The two primary reasons are that the bond is an economic regulatory measure that is inappropriate in Manitoba's deregulated trucking environment, and, second is that the appeal of this requirement for the fidel ity bond is consis tent completely with what Alberta and Saskatchewan have just done regarding fidelity bonds there. I guess, I could throw in a third item. In 15 years of having a requirement for that fidelity bond, there are only three known instances where it was actually used in the entire industry, over 15 years.

By eliminating the fidelity bond requirement, carriers will be relieved of this unnecessary expense and

April 15, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1647 operate more efficiently. The elimination of unnecessary costs for carriers is consis tent with my department's m1sswn to provide an efficient transportation system and the prov ince's strategy to promote economic growth by streamlining regulation and the province's desire to harmonize trucking regulations across the country.

The third issue that is to be dealt with in this bill involves the amendments to the release-of-information provision, specifically regarding medical information, to ensure that this act, The Highway Traffic Ac t, is consis tent with the new Personal Health Information Act. The existing release of information revisions under The Highway Traffic Act do not allow a person access to their medical records unless cons ent is received from the physician who supplied the report.

This approach is inconsi stent with the individual's right of access to personal health information under the new Personal Health Information Act. Under PHIA, an individual can only be denied access to his or her own personal health information in certain limited cir cumstances. These include situations where knowledge of the information could be expected to endanger the person or another person, and, secondly, disclosure of the information could be expected to identify a third party who supplied the information under cir cumstances where confidentiality was reasonably expected.

The department's legal counsel has advised that the release of medical information provides provisions under the HTA, The Highway Traffic Act, should be consi stent with those of the PHIA, The Personal Health Information Act. Accordingly, we are making these changes necessary to eliminate the discrepa ncies. The fourth and last issue of this bill relates to the repeal of some unproclaimed amendments dating back to 1985 . They relate to revised definition of a commercial vehicle and the requirements regarding the registration of leased public vehicles.

These amend ments are no longer relevant as the vehicle registration part was rewritten in 1994 as part of MPI's Autopac 2000 project. A comple te description of the amendments I have outlined is provided in the

summary to the spreadsheet package which I will be providing to my opposition coll eagues. I look forward to discussing the bill in greater detail in legislative comm ittee, and I recommend this, Madam Speaker, to the House, and to my critic opposite for speedy passage. Thank you. Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that debate be now adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bi11 26-The Teachers' Society Amendment Act Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): I move, seconded by the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings), that Bill 26, The Teachers' Socie ty Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur !'A ssociation des enseignants du Manitoba, be now read a second time and referred to a comm ittee of this House. Motion presented. Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, I have the pleasure of presenting a bill which involves amendments to The Teachers' Socie ty Act. These amendments originated from a direct request by the executive of the Manitoba Teachers' Society. The bill contains amendments which the society believes would more accurately and realistically reflect its current organization and services.

The bill before you involves amendments to the election procedures of the Teachers' Society which the socie ty feels would enhance accountab ility to their general membership and democratize their organization. To that end, Madam Speaker, the society has requested that a voting by members at large be allowed, rather than voting by delegates for the election of the president. This would allow all members to be more involved in the political process of the MTS presidency. Without this amendment, the annual general meeting of the Manitoba Teachers' Society would remain as the vehicle for selection of the president.

In addition, MTS has asked that the positions of president designate and past president be eliminated.

1648 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15, 1998 This gives greater authority to the president, him or herself, and these proposed amendments to The Manitoba Teachers' Society Act will enable the teachers' organization to better govern its affairs according to the wishes of its members. As a result, officers and elected representa tives will be more accountable to the members and equity among the different regions of the province will be improved.

At present, Madam Speaker, The Manitoba Teachers' Socie ty Act af fords the same rights, privileges and benefits of active membership to the category of associate members, including student teachers. This creates expectations that the Manitoba Teachers' Society cannot realistically fulfill.

Section 6 of the act would be divided into two sections, one dealing with certified teachers who do not qualify for active membership and a second category which deals with student teachers in the Faculties of Education. As well,

Section 5(5) of the act will be repealed. The proposed changes, as requested by the society, would more accurately reflect the services and benefits that the Teachers' Society believes it is realistically capable of providing to its associate members. *

(1500) There are also housekeeping issues which the Manitoba Teachers' Socie ty has requested that government support. These items include amending

Section 9 of the act so that the provincial council can establish new or alter the boundaries of existing teachers' electoral divisions ac cording to the by-laws of the organization, rather than according to inspectoral divisions, as there are no longer inspectoral divisions. In addition, the society has asked that school divisions and/or districts be required to provide teacher information; that is, teachers' names and home address, employment status, school address. They have been asked that that information be provided so that the register of members can be kept current.

The Manitoba Teachers' Society feels that this proposal would provide more timely and accurate information than is presently the case. So, Madam Speaker, I am pleased to present this bill. This bill is, I believe, something that will benefit teachers, is desired by teachers, and supported by all of us who support teachers. Thank you. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 27- The Manitoba Employee Ownership Fund Corporation Amendment Act Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gilleshammer), that Bill 27, The Manitoba Employee Ow nership Fund Corporation Amendment Act (Loi modi fiant Ia Loi consti tuant en corporation le Fonds de participation des travailleurs du Manitoba), be now read a second time and be referred to a comm ittee of this House. Motion presented. Mr.

Downey: Bill 27, the amendment to The Manitoba Employee Ownership Corporation Act, will allow Crocus to operate under the same rules and procedures as funds being managed and administered under The Labour-Sponsored Venture Capital Corporations Act. A 1997 amending act adds a new definition, qualifying trust. The term is used in several provisions, but in three places it has the inadvertent effect of not allowing the purchase of shares by a retirement savings plan or the transfer of shares to a retirement savings plan or retirement income fund.

The drafter of the amending act first noticed the error on December 6, 1997. If the error is not corrected, the Crocus Fund must disclose in its prospectus and all marketing materials that the transfer of shares is restricted. As well, the fund would not be able to issue shares to reinstate the retirement savings plan. The fund advises that this would adversely affect the marketability of its shares and would place it at a disadvantage in comparison to the fund registered under the new act.

The revisions have been discussed with Crocus private legal counsel, who has agreed with the amendments now being proposed to correct the problem. Thank you, Madam Speaker, and I recommend it to this House.

April 15, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1649 Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 28-The Employment Standar ds Code and Consequential Amendme nts Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Labour): I move, seconded by the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), that Bill 28, The Employment Standards Code and Consequential Amendments (Code des normes d'emploi et modifications correlatives), be now read a second time and be referred to a commit tee of this House. Motion presented. Mr.

Gilleshammer: Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to introduce Bill 28 which proposes to consoli date several existing statutes relating to employment standards. These would be The Employment Standards Act, which was enacted in its present form in 1957, The Vacations With Pay Act, which was enacted in 1947, and The Payment of Wages Act, which was adopted in 1970. The existing acts relate to much the same subject matter, but in many cases their

definitions, methods of administration and enf orcement, procedures and other provisions are redundant, outdated or inconsis tent with one another. This has often resulted in difficulties for employers and employees whose rights and obligations under the legislation have not always been as clear as they might be. It has also posed problems for administrators of the legislation in terms of enforcing the law and communic ating to affected parties their rights and obligations.

For these reasons it is being proposed that the three previously noted labour standards statutes be consoli dated into a single unified employment standards code. The inconsistencies and redundancies in the legislation were recognized many years ago. As a result, a number of initiatives to consolida te the statutes were commenced over the last 20 years or so but were never completed. This current initiative began in 1996 with the departmental development of the proposed code in consultation with the office of Legislative Counsel.

Fol lowing comple tion of the first draft of the code in June 1997, I requested the Manitoba Labour Manage ment Review Committee, which consists of the representatives of employer and employee organizations in this province, to review the code and provide me with advice and recommen dations. The LMRC undertook a thorough clause-by-clause review of the proposed code and reported back to me in November of 1997. The committee identified about 30 provisions with respect to which they had concerns or required clarification.

As a result, further consultations between the comm ittee and the department were undertaken to address these matters. I am very pleased to note that in the course of the consolida tive process, all concerns were addressed and that with perhaps one or two exceptions the proposed employment standards code is being endorsed by the LMRC.

I would also like to note that as a result of this co-oper ative process, a new provision has been added to the code that will require consultation with representatives of employers and employees prior to new regulations being enacted, except in circumstances considered to be of an urgent nature. The consultative process in this case worked exceptionally well, and I am very grateful to the LMRC for its contribution to the proc ess. In

summary, I suggest that the proposed code results in the following improvements over the existing statute it is designed to replace: It restructures and streamlines the legislation to make it easier to understand and to administer; it co-ordin ates

definitions and eliminates redundanc ies and inconsistencies; it updates the legislation and eliminates outdated provisions; it provides the opportunities for more effective and efficient enforcement of the law; it maintains the existing policy scope of the legislation; it preserves the basic balance of rights and obligations in both employers and employees; it requires consultation with representatives of employers and employees prior to the enactment of new legislation. I would like to highlight and explain some of the specific changes contained in the code.

First, the overtime provisions are being amended to allow employers and employees to be able to agree to have the employee take time off with pay instead of being

1650 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15, 1998 paid overtime wages. The time off would equate to 150 percent of the number of overtime hours worked. Existing legislation requires payment of time and a half for overtime hours worked and does not specifically allow for the option of taking time off with pay. This change, in fact, reflects what is the current practice in many workplaces. A second change relates to the way vacation pay is to be calculated.

Under the proposed code an employee who is entitled to a two-week vacation will be paid 4 percent of the wages earned in the year that the vacation entitlement was earned. This would be 6 percent where an employee was entitled to a three-week vacation. All other jurisdictions in Canada utilize this approach. It is easier for employers and employees to understand and facilitates its enf orcement by Employment Standards officers. Generally this change should have no significant impact on the rights and obligations of employers and employees.

Employees who move from part-time to full-time work may be entitled to less vacation pay than they would otherwise be entitled to in the first year following their change of status. The opposite would be the case where an employee moved from full-time to part-time work. Requirements relating to the minimum payment to employees who are called to work on a regular day off are being modified. At present an employee must be paid for at least three hours of work at the general minimum wage rate. Under the proposed code the employee would have to be paid for three hours of work at his or her regular rate of pay.

This would not apply where an employee's regular hours of work on a regular work day were less than three hours. *

(1510) Procedures relating to the processing of complain ts involving failure to give notice of term ination of employment will be standardized and streamlined. At present, employee compla ints are filed and processed under The Payment of Wages Act. However, since that act does not accommo date employer complaints, any cla ims made by employers must be filed under the provisions of The Employment Standards Act that are somewhat cumbersome and outdated.

Under the proposed code, all complain ts including those for failure to give the necessa ry notice of termination of employment will be filed and processed in a uniform manner. This will make the legislation more understandable to all affected persons and will improve the administration of the code. A new provision in the code would require the payment of administrative costs by an employer or employee against whom a payment of wages order is made. This would not apply in cases that are resolved prior to a formal payment of wages order being issued.

I might point out that in practice close to 90 percent of compla ints are resolved without the need to issue a formal payment of wages order. Administrative costs would be the greater of $100 or 10 percent of the wages found owing up to a maximum of$1,000. The general intent of provisions of this kind is to serve as a deterrent against noncompliance and to recover some portion of the costs associated with administering the law. Legislation of this kind, I might add, is enf orced in several Canadian jurisdictions including Saskatchewan and Alberta.

A further new provision will require the payment of interest and unpaid wages in certain cases on any money held in trust by the director of Employment Standards. While the details will be dealt with in the regulations, interest would only be payable in cases where a formal payment of wages order has been made. As I indica ted earlier, about 90 percent of compl aints are resolved prior to a formal order for the payment of wages being made.

This change is intended not only to serve as a deterrent against noncomp liance but also to ensure that the person owed the money receives the full amount to which he or she is rightfully entitled. Several provinces, including Saskatchewan and British Columbia, have similar legislation relating to the payment of interest on unpaid wages. Another amendment provides that claims for unpaid wages will have priority over the claims of other creditors up to a maximum of $2,500. For amounts above this, wage claims will have the same priority as the claims of other ordinary creditors.

At present, claims for unpaid wages have a priority up to a maximum of $2,000. The change only updates the current provision. The new code will also increase fine levels that have not been updated for 30 years or longer. There is a new

April 15, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1651 provision that requires the minister, except in case of emergency or urgent matters, to consult with representatives of employers and employees and other appropriate persons with respect to any proposed new regulations. While this provision was not included in the original proposed code, it has been a stated policy of this government to consult with stakeholders prior to adopting any new regulations. In any case, on the recommendation of the Labour Management Review Comm ittee, this policy will now be legislated into the code.

Lastly, several additional amendments relate to improving the enforcement and administration of the legislation.

These include strengthening provisions respecting the authority of the director of Employment Standards in the serving on third parties' demands for the payment of money, improving the ability of the department to enforce financing statements registered against an employer under The Personal Property Security Act, providing for the ability to file a notice claiming an interest in Crown lands where the employer has property on the land, and authorizing the director of Employment Standards to effect settlements of differences between employers and employees and to receive and pay out money in the settlement of those differences.

Those in

summary are some ofthe more significant changes that have been included in the new code. As I indica ted earlier, most of the changes are aimed at clarifying the legislation hy removing redundancies and inconsistencies, by updating provisions and by streamlining procedures. Other changes will improve the administration and enforcement of the legislation and simplify the law with respect to the rights and obligations of employers and employees.

I would once again like to thank the Manitoba Labour Management Review Commit tee for its invaluable assistance in the preparation of the code and for its endorsement of the code. I have been made aware that a number of very talented and experienced labour relations practitioners devoted a considerable amount of time and effort to making this important legislative initiative a better product. In particular, I would like to express my gratitude to Mr. Wally Fox-Decent, the chair person of the committee, and to Ms. Candace Bishoff and Mr.

Rob Hilliard, who represented and met with the respective constituents on many occasions. This resulted in providing my department with sound advice and recommenda tions. Their efforts demon strate how well the consol idative process can work to the mutual benefit of all stakeholders. In conclusion, I firmly believe that Bill 28 represents a very positive step towards the development of labour legislation in this province and commend it to the Assembly for approval. Thank you. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): I move, seconded by the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to.

DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 4- The Child and Family Services Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Madam Speaker: Adjourned debate on second reading, Bill 4, The Child and Family Services Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les services a !'enfant et a Ia famille et modifications correlatives), standing in the name of the honourable member for Transcona (Mr. Reid). Is there leave to permit the bill the remain standing? [agreed] Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): It is a pleasure to speak on this bill because it is a very interesting and unusual bill because of the process that it went through, namely, an all-party comm ittee. I have been here for about seven and a half years, and it is the first time that there has been an all-party comm ittee on anything other than constitutional change or Canadian unity.

I think it is an appropriate process that we should probably use more often in this Legislature to review legislation and bring recommendations to the government, and I will comment further in my speech about the all-party comm ittee. Today we received the Fourth Annual Report of the Children's Advoca te for 1996/97, and in his report the

1652 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15, 1998 Children's Advoca te comme nts on the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. I think it is very appropriate to compare our legislation and our practice to the UN Convention Rights of the Child. It is also significant, I think, that children have rights in Manitoba and in, I guess, all provinces in Canada. Mr.

Ben Sveinson, Acting Speaker, in the Chair Because of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and beca use of provincial statutes, such as human rights legislation and, in several provinces, Children's Advocate legislation, childr en do have rights. That really distinguishes us from other countries around the world where child ren do not have rights, and where as a result they are subject to exploitation and oppression of many different kinds. The Children's Advoca te makes some significant observations.

There is a comparison of Manitoba's child welfare system in relation to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of a Child, and it points out that if you compare the legislation with the convent ion, namely, if you compare The Child and Family Services Act in Manitoba with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of a Child, the legislation stands up quite well.

He says, and I quote, "If one simply does a comparative analysis of The Child and Family Services Act to the Articles of the UN Convention, there would be no difficulty in reaching the conclusion that from a strictly legislative perspective, Manitoba's Child and Family Services Act is very consi stent with the UN Convention." *

(1520) However, he compares practice with the UN Convention, and he says a different view emerges. I would like to quote from his report because I think these are important observations. He says, "Many chil dren, and their parents who are involved in the child and family services system, are not afforded basic dignity and respect that one would expect from a helping profession. Access to basic information and involvement in decisions which affect their lives is not always practised in a consis tent manner.

Over-reliance on social work jargon and compli cated procedures often leads to confusion, tension, and mistrust being"-between I guess-"cl ients and the system. Self sufficiency and empowerment of both chil dren and families does not occur unless it is fiscally viable and rewarding for the system." We know that there are limits to the amount of money that government has to provide service to chi ldren, and government departments have to operate within budgets, and agencies that get money from government have to operate within budgets.

One of the agenc ies of government that consi stently has problems operating within its budget is Winnipeg Child and Family Services. Now, it is probably a good thing that they still provide service when their budget runs out, and every year they come back to the government and they say, we have a deficit, will you cover the deficit. The former Minister of Family Services knows all about this because he was part of that process.

And to their credit, every year the government passes a special warrant and covers the deficit, and this year it was $8.8 million that cabinet approved by Order-in-Council to cover the deficit of Winnipeg Child and Family Services. We agree that the agency and the government should continue to provide service for children in Winnipeg and in Manitoba, but obviously there is a problem with the budgeting, which the Provincial Auditor has commen ted on and the Children's Advoca te has comm ented on, and we hope that the government will improve their budgeting process.

The Children's Advocate goes on to say the quality of care of chil dren in some instances is very punitive in nature as opposed to offering guidance, nurturing and development. And then he says, and I quote, "I do not believe the whole system is all doom and gloom as there are many dedica ted, comm itted and caring workers attempting to promote positive and lasting well-being for childr en and their families.

As workers they are also confronted with many restrictions and limitations as to what they can of fer." So we know that in many cases, workers have many, many cli ents or children in their care, and that even though they would like to provide more service to them

April 15, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1653 such as home visits, and counselling and linking them up with resources, the workers on the front line are overburdened, as they have pointed out in their briefs to the government, and are unable to provide the kind of service and the quality of service that they would like.

He continues to say, and I quote, "In short, while Manitoba may have the legislative framework which supports the rights and interests of child ren and their families as envisioned by the UN Convention, much work has yet to be done on the actual implementation and changes to the practice of child welfare in this province." And then he says quite significantly, "government must remain committed to making a social investment on behalf of our child ren and their families.

Sole reliance and the goodwill and philanthropy of neighbours, social agencies, and the communities is not enough as we prepare for the second millennium. The needs of chil dren and families involved in the Child and Family Services system cannot be isolated from the broader social problems of poverty, unemployment, family violence, etc." This is an interesting comment, as well, because it reflects other reports that the government has. For example, there was the report that was done by the executive directors of about 25 agencies in the city of Winnipeg whose funding comes from the United Way.

They had scathing things to say about the lack of government funding and the cutbacks in recent years and the results and the limitations, really, on their ability to provide service to people in the community as part of their function of helping agencies in the community. Also, the government has an environmental scan that was done by Winnipeg Child and Family Services, commissioned, I believe, by the agency, and cert ainly the government has a copy of that report. They talked about why children come into care, and they came up with three charact eristics of chil dren in care. What were they?

Children living in poverty, child ren whose parenting is by a single parent and child ren who are aboriginal. Those were identified as the three at-risk groups, and if an individual has a combination of all three, their chances of being taken into care by Winnipeg Child and Family Services are extremely high. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair I was told recently of a study at Headingley Jail about gang members that said that 100 percent of gang members at Headingley Jail were raised by single parent households, single-parent individuals. Now, I do not have a copy of that study.

I have not been able to verify it, but I would not be surprised if it is true. It would not be shocking in the least to know that, and this is not to blanket all single parents and condemn them because of this kind of information. It is just to say that a minority of single parents have great difficulty parenting, difficulty parenting because of things like living on social assistance and a lack of resources, and the result is that some of these child ren get into trouble. The Children's Advoca te has had an annual report every year, and some of these reports have been extremely critical of this government.

The Children's Advoca te has made numerous recommendations and has highlighted problems in the system; for example, child ren living in hotels of which there are a number. In fact, at one time they ran out of rooms at one hotel and they had to rent rooms in two or three hotels, sometimes at great expense, mainly because they were renting apartment suite hotels. The Children's Advocate has commented on chil dren dying in care.

The Children's Advocate has commented on alle gations of abuse; for example, in his second annual report on page 13, and I quote: statistics from the child and family support branch, as reported by agencies listed, a total of 97 allegations of abuse of chi ldren in foster care for 1994-95 resulting in the removal and re-placement of 61 chil dren. In other words, in at least 61 cases, the allegations were consid ered so serious that the child was moved to another foster home placement. So we have some very serious concerns about service to children in Manitoba by the Children's Advocate.

Of course, we have constantly urged this minister to follow up on these recommenda tions. I have asked every year in Family Services Estimates what the minister is doing to follow up on these recommendations and whether or not they have been implemented, and every year, of course, we get a partial list of recommendations that have been implemented.

1654 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15, 1998 But some of them are still outstanding. For example, if one looks at the second annual report for '94-95, one of the recommendations, act ually recommendation No. 5, the Children's Advoca te says that child death reports provided by the Chief Medical Examiner where a child has been in care or in receipt of services from a Child and Family Services agency be made public to the extent possible within the confidentiality provisions of legislation.

I have urged the minister to develop this policy and to make it public and to implement it, and every year the minister stalls and says that she is working on it. I do not remember any of the excuses that the minister has given, but we are still waiting for this very important recommend ation. The minister agrees with the recommendation, but we are still waiting for the implementation.

I would like to comment on the report of the Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections for the review of the Children's Advocate legislation, and I would like to commend the minister and commend the government and commend the member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck), who was Chair of the committee. I enjoyed working with him. He was a good Chair. We also had staff support from the Clerk's office, one of the staff who I believe is from Thompson. We had the pleasure of travelling to her hometown when we had public hearings in Thompson.

As I said before, I thought the process was good, having an all-party committee. Now, I know that the government members and the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) and the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) hoped that everything would go fine and there would be a unanimous report with unanimous recommendations, recommendations supported by all three parties in this Chamber. We were that close. We were very close to getting a unanimous report but, at the last minute, I sprung a surprise on the other members and we had a minority report from the NDP caucus.

The reason was that I took the recommendations, as the Family Services critic, to my caucus, and they felt that they did not go far enough. They also did not reflect some of the things that we are hearing on behalf of the public. Certainly it would have been very difficult for us to write things in a minority report that the public did not support, but in fact the opposite was true. The things that we recommended in our minority report were items and concerns that were brought to the fore by those people who presented orally and in writing or who mailed in briefs to the all-party committee.

The public hearings were an interesting process in themselves. Not only did we have public hearings in the Legislature, which is normal, but we had video conf erencing , which was a first for the Manitoba Legislature. I believe we had people in Brandon speaking to us in Winnipeg, courtesy ofMTS, I believe. We had people from Brandon also making presentations to us courtesy of video conferencing.

This is a very good way for us as members of the Legislature to consult the public without having the great expense of travelling outside of Winnipeg. * (1530 ) Actually, one of the problems of our legislative process is that we expect people to come from wherever they are in Manitoba to the Legislative Building to present briefs, and that can be very expensive, especially if you are looking at return airfare from Thompson or The Pas or Flin Flon or one of these places or travel time in driving to Winnipeg.

Consequently, we get very few people from outside of Winnipeg presenting briefs at the committee stage in the Manitoba Legislature. So video conferencing took care of that. People did not have to travel. They made presentations from Brandon and Dauphin. Then, as I said before, we did travel to Thompson, and we had public hearings there as well. I think it is good for us as members of the Legislature to get out of Winnipeg and to consult with people. Sometimes we in this building are accused of having Perimeteritis, of not being able to see beyond the Perimeter Highway.

So one way of overcoming this is for us to go out and hear presentations from the public outside the city of Winnipeg. Now, the committee heard many, many excellent presentations. We were very pleased to have the number of people present to us as did. The first item that is in the all-party report has to do with the reporting

April 15, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1655 relationship. Most presenters recommended that the Children's Advocate report to the Legislative Assembly rather than to the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson). The people who made this recommendation said they believed that the Children's Advoca te and his report would then be more independent from the government, that the advocate would not feel inhibited by reporting directly to the minister and would feel free to say whatever he or she needed to say in his or her annual report.

Now I do not think that is a problem for the current Children's Advocate, Mr. Wayne Govereau, who has felt quite free to express his opinion and to put those opinions and recommendations in his annual reports to his credit. But there is no guarantee as to who the next Child ren's Advoca te will be, and we believe that, by providing more independence, this will protect the Children's Advocate to speak out and to speak up where neces sary, and to make recommendations where necess ary, on behalf of children. So the first recommendation of the subcomm ittee is one that we totally support.

Some of the presenters stressed the need to have the Children's Advoca te appointed for a specific term of office in a manner similar to that of the provincial Ombudsman. The legislation addresses that, but we feel that it does not go far enough. The legislation recommends a term of three years, once renewable. We believe that this should be increased to five years, once renewable. The reason for that is that we need to attract the best possible candidates; and, if someone is only guaranteed three years or the possibility of six years, we may not get the best possible candidates.

This is a position that would probably be advertised across Canada. The current Children's Advoca te I believe, comes from the province of Alberta and �e think it would be much easier to attract some�ne who is suitable for the job and someone who would have ex�ellent qualifications if they knew that they were gomg to have the job for a minimum of five years or a maximum of 10 years. Man� �f_t?e presenters comm ented on the scope of responsibJhties of the Children's Advocate. Some presentations to the commi ttee made reference to the fact that the existing scope of responsibilities was too restrictive.

The point was made that the mandate of the Children's Advoca te should be expanded to respond to the concerns of all children who are encountering problems in their lives, whether that be in child welfare ' mental health, the judicial system or the education system. Unfortunately, we believe that the report of the all party committee and the amendments do not go far enough, because the recommendation of the committee was that the Office of the Children's Advoca te maintain its present responsibility only within the Child and Family Services system.

We believe that there is a need to go further and to expand the responsibilities of the Children's Advocate so that he or she can investigate comp laints from children in all areas of government. The report that we have today, the Fourth Annual Report of the Children's Advocate, I believe, comments on that and points out that there are some areas where child ren have almost no rights. In fact, I think he points out that parents have no rights or very few rights in the education system.

Certainly, that is one area where there are thousands of chil dren and where they are affected by not only the policy of school divisions but the policy of the provincial government, and therefore it is appropriate that the Children's Advoca te's responsibilities be expanded so that he or she could investigate compla ints in the education system.

The next area that the report comments on is compl iance with recommendations of the Children's Advocate, and it says that several presenters ackn owledge the fact that the Children's Advocate can exercise broad investigative powers, though the penalties for failure to comply with the recommendations from his office are nonexistent.

This was another recurring theme of the presenters, that over and over again we heard that the advocate had broad powers to investigate child ren in the care of Child and Family Services agencies, but that, if the Children's Advoca te made a recommendation, there was nothing that the Children's Advoca te could do to enforce the recommendation or to force compl iance with the recommendation. So a number of people urged the government to amend the legislation to allow some sort of complia nce mechanism. There were some very good suggestions made as to how to enforce compliance. Of most of the presenters,

1656 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 15, 1998 I asked them, well, what kind of complia nce mechanism would you recommend? I also made suggestions to people and said: would you be in favour of a compl iance mechanism such that, where there was a failure to agree on the part of the Children's Advocate and a child welfare agency, that the use of mediation concil iation or other culturally appropriate dispute resolution services be provided?

Most of the presenters that I posed that question to said, yes, we would be in favour of using mediation-conc iliation or culturally appropriate dispute resolution services. So we think that is another area where the government did not go far enough, that there should be some sort of complia nce mechanism. We also recognize that there are many aboriginal chi ldren in care in Manitoba. In fact I believe we have the highest number of children in care of any province in Canada, and many of those children are aboriginal.

I have heard, and I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this, that 60 percent of chil dren in care in Winnipeg are aboriginal. So we believe that any of these compliance mechanisms should be culturally sensitive to aboriginal people. *

(1540) The committee recommended that in cases where the agency and the Children's Advoca te disagreed, that a referral be made to the director of Child and Family Services for resolution, but we believe that that is not appropriate because this branch is part of the Department of Family Services, and Child and Family Services agencies report to this branch. So we do not think that is going to be sufficient to resolve cases where there is disagreement between an agency and the Children's Advocate or the Children's Advocate's recommenda tions.

Several presenters made reference to the fact that the duties and functions of the Office of the Children's Advocate is not well known in rural and northern Manitoba, and probably that was the biggest advantage that we had of consulting people in rural and northern Manitoba, specifically in Brandon, Dauphin and Thompson. When we asked people if they had heard of the Children's Advoca te office, some of the presenters said, no, they had not heard of the Children's Advoca te office, in spite of the fact that the Children's Advoca te office has brochures that they mail out, including to members of the Legislature.

They have posters that they mail out. I believe I have a copy of the Children's Advocate poster in the window of my constituency office on Selkirk A venue, and it has a phone number where child ren can phone the Children's Advoca te office. In spite of that, we asked presenters in Thompson if they had heard of the Child ren's Advoca te office and some of them had not, and that is regrettable. So we believe there is a great need to expand the services of the Children's Advocate.

We believe there needs to be an expansion, so that children and families are better served by the advocate's office in rural and northern Manitoba. There is also a need for culturally sensitive services. What we really mean by that is when the Children's Advoca te office has an opportunity, they should hire aboriginal staff, so we have aboriginal people providing assistance to aboriginal children. Certainly this complain t is not unique or new for this particular arm of the government.

I think people in rural and northern Manitoba frequently feel that they do not have the kind of access to services that people in Winnipeg have, and from time to time governments try to address this problem, and this is one area where it needs to be addressed. The final recommendation of the commit tee had to do with the need to evaluate the goals and outcomes of the key components ofthe Child and Family Services system.

It was noted that there is a need to define measures which are objective rather than judgmental, and was further suggested that the annual reports of the Children's Advocate should focus on a critique of the system. This is a recommendation that our caucus supports. It was a good idea. We would like to see it implemented. I do not think it is in Bill 4, The Child and Family Services Amendment Act; however, it is probably not appropriate to be in legislation. If we do think it is appropriate, we can always amend the bill to put it in the legislation.

It is just something that is a very good idea, and the government should just do it, or authorize the Children's Advoca te to do it. Perhaps they could get assistance from the Social Work faculty at the University of Manitoba, or perhaps they can hire someone to do a statistical analysis and provide that

April 15, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1657 infonnation in the annual report. We think that would be helpful. The bill includes a number of new items, for example, the ability of the Legislature to remove the Children's Advocate. In this case, the parallel would be the Ombudsman legislation in the Province of Manitoba, whereby with a two-thirds vote of the Legislature, the Ombudsman can be removed. This bill says to remove or suspend on a two-thirds vote, and we think that is a good idea.

Obviously, there are a number of parallels here between The Ombudsman Act and the Children's Advoca te sections of The Child and Family Services Act. In fact, we are making some changes here that bring the Child Advoca te into line with, or we are going to make them similar to provisions of the Ombudsman legislation. The Children's Advocate will now report to the Legislature through the Speaker. They will table an annual report. They will be an officer of the Legislature. They will be hired by a commit tee of the Legislature, which is quite important.

It means that all of us will have a say in who the new person is, who is being hired, not just the minister and the government, and they can be removed for cause with a two-thirds vote of the Legislature. So we are in favour of that part of the legislation. Another new ·part of the bill says: "The Standing Committee of the Assembly on Privileges and Elections may refer to the Children's Advoca te for review, investigation and report any matter relating to (

a) the welfare and interests of children." We think that is another good provision of this amendment bill. From time to time, there may be areas that need to be investigated; there may be areas that the Children's Advocate has not been able to investigate. I am not sure what these situations would be. Perhaps the Children's Advoca te might want to investigate something, and they do not have the staff resources to do so, but a comm ittee of the Legislature, if they tell them to investigate something, then they will have to do it.

So we support this new clause in The Child and Family Services Act, which actually gets the Legislative Assembly, or a comm ittee of the Legislative Assembly, more involved in child ren's issues. Certainly there is need f

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-4-31
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 4th hansardpdf 31.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e70461977f31d45f2c2d6bbe3849dd5095442949

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