Manitoba Hansard — 3 December 2002 (Sitting 05, 37th Legislature, 4th Session)

37-4-05

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LII No. 5 – 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, December 3, 2002

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY First Session–Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy St. Vital N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. ASPER, Linda Riel N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky, Hon. Inkster N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. Brandon East N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C.

ENNS, Harry Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. Wolseley N.D.P. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HELWER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P.

MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PENNER, Jim Steinbach P.C. PITURA, Frank Morris P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim Assiniboia N.D.P. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Joy Fort Garry P.C. SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

135 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, December 3, 2002 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): It is my duty to inform the House that Mr. Speaker is unavoidably absent. Ther efore, in accordance with the statutes, I would ask the Deputy Speaker to please take the Chair. Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections First Report Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Chairperson): I beg to present the First Report of the Committee on Privileges and Elections.

Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Your Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections presents the following as its First Report– Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Dispense. Your Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections presents the following as its First Report. Meetings: Your committee met on Monday, December 2, 2002, at 10 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative uilding. B Matters Under Consideration: The Appointment of a Conflict of Interest Commissioner Committee Membership: Your committee elected Mr. Nevakshonoff as the Chairperson.

Substitutions received prior to commencement of the meeting: Mrs. Dacquay for Mr. Murray Mr. Helwer for Mrs. Mitchelson Hon. Mr. Mackintosh for Hon. Mr. Selinger Mr. Nevakshonoff for Ms. Allan Motions Adopted and Reported: THAT it is recommended that William (Bill) Norrie be appointed the Conflict of Interest ommissioner. C * (13:35) Mr. Nevakshonoff: I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Deputy Speaker: It is customary to acknowledge the guests in the gallery before we tart Oral Questions. s So, we have seated in the public gallery, O.V. Jewitt Elementary school, 39 Grade 5 students under the direction of Mrs. Rhonda Beddome from the constituency of the hon- ourable Member for The Maples (Mr. Aglugub). Also in the gallery from Springs Christian Academy 28 Grade 11 students under the direction of Mr. Brad Dowler from the constitu- ency of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. elinger), St. Boniface.

S We have also in the gallery from Oakenwald School 26 Grade 5 students under the direction of Mrs. Joanne Burns fro m the constituency of the honourable Member for Fort Garry (Mrs. mith). S We all welcome you in the Legislature.

136 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 3, 2002 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Provincial Sales Tax Mechanical/Electrical Contracts Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr. Deputy Speaker, unhindered by a little obstacle called balanced budget law, the Doer govern- ment is using NDP tax hike code such as simplification, expanding the PST to cover mechanical and electrical contracts, effective October 1. Originally estimated to bring in approximately $10 million, stakeholders suggest that range may be as high as $40 million to $70 million, to be more accurate.

When you ask the Taxation Division, they do not return phone calls. Even if after much effort they do, they shuffle you off to the minister's office and then refuse to give us any kind of estimate of what that level would be. My question to the Minister of Finance is simple: How much additional revenue is your tax grab estimated to bring your Government coffers? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): I would like to congratulate the member from Virden on his new responsibilities as Finance critic. As to the question, the original estimate, some predicted the revenue would exceed $60 million.

Others estimated it as low as $10 million. Finance, at the Estimates time when we reviewed this, indicated they thought the estimate would be in the order of $15 million, but with late implementation this year the amount of revenue would be significantly less. The implementation was done at a later date in order to provide proper time for taxation officials to brief all members of the industry, who of course requested this change in the first lace. p * (13:40) Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Member for Arthur-Virden, for first supplementary. Mr. Maguire: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, can the minister, as this policy affects all Manitobans, can he not table for this House any compre- hensive analysis in terms of increased costs of municipal governments for construction of sewer and water infrastructure, recreational facilities, community halls, skating rinks and all of those buildings that will have this tax added on to them in all of those rural and city areas? Mr.

Selinger: It is understandable that the new critic was not available for the Estimates discussion last year where we confirmed there would be no changes in taxation for water and sewer lines, no changes in taxation for basement flood relief, construction projects, no changes in taxation for water and sewer treatment plants, and of course no changes in taxation for road construction. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Member for Arthur-Virden, second supplementary ques- tion. Mr.

Maguire: The minister almost seems embarrassed, given that there is no answer to this question in regard to the amount of the tax grab that he will take out of the province of Manitoba. How much additional revenue is he expecting as a result of this tax grab? Is it $10 million, $20 million? Is it $70 or $100 million that he is looking at taking out in a full year? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Deputy Speaker, as I indi- cated in the answer to my first question, the estimate for a fully annualized implementation of this measure is $15 million.

The amount to be collected this year is significantly less because the implementation was made effective October 1, after the majority of construction was done in this year. We, of course, will be fully account- able and report back to the Legislature or a standing committee as the tax measure fully implements. Nursing Committee Update Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): In the 1999 election campaign, Mr. Doer promised Mani- tobans that if it took hiring more full-time nurses–[Interjection] I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker. M r. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Loewen: The Premier (Mr.

Doer) promised Manitobans that if it took hiring more full-time

December 3, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 137 nurses to fix the health care system he would simply hire more full- time nurses. Their election literature was riddled to references of hiring more full-time nurses. Yet here we are three years later, the nursing shortage has climbed, overtime costs have increased dramatically and front-line nurses are under more stress as a result of this Government's inaction.

I would ask the Minister of Health if he would inform this House how many people he has appointed to the provincial joint committee on full-time, part-time nursing staff ratios, how many meetings this committee has conducted and what recommendations have come forward from this committee since it was struck in April. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, as you are probably aware, during the very tumultuous time of the '90s when nurses were let go from many, many facilities and programs were cancelled, the diploma pro- gram was cancelled and the nursing program was cancelled, the numbers of nurses graduating when we came to office was in the hundreds when it had formerly been in the four-hundreds and five-hundreds. That is why one of the first measures this Government did was launch extensive training programs for nurses. When we launched our pro- grams, members opposite were speaking against it. They were opposed to it.

I am happy to say now that we have launched those training programs and are gradu- ating more nurses, the latest CIHI stats show more nurses employed in Manitoba in the last statistics than the year before. We have made a difference as a result of our training programs and will continue to make a difference as we graduate more nurses. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I asked the minister who he appointed to the committee, when he appointed them and whether they have met or not. Why is he refusing to answer those questions, and why is he refusing to help Mani- toba nurses out?

Why is he not following up on the election promises that were made by the Premier? Why is he sitting there doing nothing? * (13:45) Mr. Chomiak: The member will know during the term of the 11 lean Tory years there were two nurses' contracts negotiated, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and in fact nur ses received a rollback. There was no joint commission. There was no action on full-time nurses. There was no action on part-time nurses. The only action was elimi- nating nurses' jobs.

When we negotiated our first collective agreement with the nurses, we put in place a committee to meet with the nurses, to have a joint council to work on full time, part time, not an administrative council, not a professional advisory council, as is in members opposite's Throne Speech, that they are going to have a professional advisory council, but a working council that has met, that is working on full time, part time, is gathering statistics and information, and I have met with them. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort Whyte's second supplementary question. Mr. Loewen: Thank you, Mr.

Deputy Speaker. I would ask the minister why he is ignoring his election promises. Why is he ignoring front-line nurses? Who has he appointed to this committee, when has it met, and what recommendations have come forward? Why will he not simply answer those questions? Mr. Chomiak: The joint committee has met. I have met with the members of the joint committee. I note members opposite's contribution to this debate has been a Throne Speech that they put out that mentioned nurses zero, no reference to nurses, no reference to professional training.

I think their Throne Speech said nothing about nurses, which indicates they have the same policy regarding nurses as they had in the 1990s. There is not a recognition of the role and function nurses play. Nurses know better than that. That is why we have the collective agreement. That is why we have the joint council. That is why we have working conditions. That is why we had a nurse task force. That is why we expanded training. That is why we are graduating more nurses.

138 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 3, 2002 Air Ambulances Usage Policy Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): I am glad the Minister of Health is taking a glass of water. He needs it. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Pasieczka family is left with many unanswered questions as they relate to the lack of support from the Department of Health for costs associated with the premature birth of their baby daughter Adriana. The issue of the Government emergency medivac, an air ambulance, has not been answered by the Minister of Health.

Can the minister explain why the ambulance was not allowed to fly to pick up baby Adriana when in fact it has flown out of the province to pick up patients in the past and when in fact the medivac plane was on the ground the entire day on February 20, 2002? Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Minister of Transportation– Some Honourable Members: and Government Services. Mr. Deputy Speaker: –Government Services. Hon. Scott Smith (Minister of Transportation and Government Services): Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker, TGS, for short, will work just fine.

The member brings up a point regarding air ambulance service and the process that is used in the province of Manitoba. I know the member had spoken previously to the press wanting the flights to fly all over North America but, No. 1, I can say to the member opposite the flights are for Manitobans, to prioritize flights within Mani- toba. They leave Manitoba certainly for organs and things like that, that are critically needed. They will take someone out of the province who cannot get health care in the province and take them to a destination.

It is not something that has ever been chartered, ever, outside of the prov- ince of Manitoba to go and pick anyone up to bring anybody back. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Speaker, on a new question. Mr. Deputy Speaker: A new question. Mr. Derkach: The minister is absolutely wrong, because last year the air ambulance, the medi- vac, flew to Yorkton, Saskatchewan to pick up a heart patient who was in danger of dying because the procedures he needed could not be done in Saskatchewan.

Therefore, the individual was picked up in Yorkton, Saskatchewan and was transferred to the Health Sciences Centre by the medivac of our province. Now, if it was all right to send the medivac to Yorkton, Saskatchewan, then why is it not all right to send the medivac to pick up a premature baby in Phoenix, Arizona? * (13:50) Mr. Smith: In fact, as the member mentioned, that was not chartered. I can inform the member opposite it was not just Piney.

Manitobans located in Manitoba border communities, an example is Piney, Roblin West, Falcon Lake, who have a highly acute state may be picked up from Rosseau, Yorkton or Kenora respectively and returned to a Manitoba health centre subsequently to initial dispatch in out-of- province location for the retreat. Those are border communities. Those are not anything that are chartered out. That is somewhat just on the border of our community here in Manitoba that are picked up and brought back into Manitoba. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Member for Russell, on a supplementary. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, how can this minister justify the actions as they relate to the medivac and the Government jet, when members of Executive Council, including the Premier (Mr. Doer), incl uding the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak), can use that plane to travel all over North America? Yet when it comes to an emergency situation like bringing a premature baby back to Manitoba who requires the special services of an incubator, the minister said no.

December 3, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 139 Mr. Smith: It appears the member opposite would like to have our planes all over North America, anywhere but in Manitoba for the people who need them. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I can tell you when these policies were established and were established by the previous government there have not been any changes, other than the limited use for ministers of the Crown. Over 75 percent of the air ambulance is used by the health care system. If in fa ct there is ever a use within Manitoba of the service they would be immediately dropped off.

The flight would immediately be rerouted to the emergency care for patients in Manitoba to protect Manitobans. Child and Family Services Therapy/Counselling Services Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Deputy Speaker, last week Winnipeg Child and Family Services supervisors were told by memo that their budget was depleted and further con- tracts for counselling children could not be entered into.

I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services if he could confirm today that his Government actually ordered a 10% budget reduction for counselling services, despite the fact that these are the most vulnerable children that his Government looks after. Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Family Services and Housing): This has been a steady drumbeat over the last few days. I tabled a letter yesterday in the House that confirmed the member was in fact in erro r in her assertions last week and earlier this week, something the member is noted for.

I will confirm that we as a Government are committed to producing and developing the best child welfare services in this country. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Member for Charleswood, on a supplementary question. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Deputy Speaker, for a minister that is entrusted to look after vulnerable children, that was a flippant and arrogant response. I would like to ask this Minister of Family Services if his Government ordered a 10% budget reduction for these vulnerable, vulnerable children who need counselling ser- vice? Did he order, did his Government order a 10% reduction in that budget? Mr.

Caldwell: The answer, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is quite clearly no. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Member for Charleswood, on a second supplementary question. Mrs. Driedger: I would like to ask this minister today whether or not he is going to guarantee that all of these children, who last week were told their services were cut off for counselling, if he will guarantee today that all of those children who need counselling in a timely manner will be able to get that counselling in a timely manner. Will he guarantee that today? * (13:55) Mr.

Caldwell: It is a curious series of days with rhetorical flourishes from the member opposite. Of course, we on this side of the House are very concerned about child welfare in this province. That is why this Government introduced the Healthy Child Initiative. We are a leader in Canada as a government for promoting child welfare. That will continue. Children in this province– Point of Order Mr. Deputy Speaker: Point of order being raised by the honourable opposition leader. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should be as brief possible, deal with the matter raised, not provoke debate. What was asked for was a guarantee from this minister for the service required by these children, these children that require services today. The previous minister would have already been on top of this issue, but this one who made the mistakes in Education is now doing it in Child and Family Services.

140 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 3, 2002 Mr. Deputy Speaker: On the same point of order, the honourable Minister of Family Services. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I do not believe the member has a point of order. I was in the midst of answering the question. He was more interested in making political commentary. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Under the proceedings and rules of the House, when questions are asked the answers are expected to be responsive to the question, but in the matter of practice everybody knows that sometimes they do not do it. I have to tell the truth because everybody knows that.

The ruling is that the honourable opposition ader has a point of order. le * * * Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Minister of Family Services will continue. Mr. Caldwell: The short answer, of course. The long answer is we are leaders in Canada. The short answer is yes. Child and Family Services Therapy/Counselling Services Mrs. Bonnie Mitchels on (River East): Mr. Deputy Speaker, this certainly is not an issue that members of the Government should be laughing about. This is a very serious issue that involves vulnerable children in Manitoba.

We know the Minister of Family Services and the Government of Manitoba directed that there be a 10% cut in services to vulnerable children. Will the Minister of Family Services today guarantee those children that they will receive the counselling they rightly deserve from this Government and his department? Mr. Deputy Speaker: The question is put. Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I thank the Member for River East for her question. I appreciate the concern the Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger) and the Member for River East have for this issue.

They certainly expressed themselves eloquently here. This Government is absolutely committed through our record, through our deeds, our actions and words to the integrity of the child welfare system in this province and to provide children with the services they rightly deserve. The answer continues to be yes. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Deputy Speaker– Mr. Deputy Speaker: First supplementary question. Mrs. Mitchelson: Will the minister today guarantee that the cuts that were directed last week and in previous weeks will be reinstated for those children? * (14:00) Mr. Caldwell: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, Thursday, Friday, Monday and Tuesday. Again members seem to not hear or not read what the executive director, the executive officer of Winnipeg Child and Family Services wrote and we tabled yesterday. There is no cut, there is no suspension of services, despite what members continue to put on the record. Clearly, the letter that was tabled yesterday by Winnipeg Child and Family Services indicates that. Members should just move on. Ethanol Industry Status Report Mr.

Ron Schuler (Springfield): Yesterday, the minister told the House he has had discussions with ethanol producers and promoters in Manitoba. Can he tell us if his Government has commitments from these stakeholders? Are there plans to build large capacity facilities, and will they be built in time to offset our Kyoto obligations, as time is of the essence? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Energy, Science and Technology): I thank the honourable mem- ber for the question. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I am sure all members will understand that before large producers of any kind make commitments in the order of hundreds of millions of dollars to build specific

December 3, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 141 plants they need a regulatory regime. We need to know where the federal government stands in terms of the ethanol subsidies. The American subsidies currently are about 22 cents a litre Canadian. The federal current subsidy level is about 10 cents a litre. If the Kyoto plan is to be successful in seeing E10 gasoline widely used in Canada then Canada needs to make that clear.

We also need to enter into negotiations with specific producers around the size of the plant, whether those plants are associated with feedlots or whether those plants are large stand-alones that are depending on export markets. We are in constant negotiations with at least three different suppliers. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Member for Springfield, on a first supplementary question. Government Initiatives Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): In his discus- sions, has the Government been asked for incentives to help establish the ethanol industry, and can the minister tell this House what they might be? Hon.

Tim Sale (Minister of Energy, Science and Technology): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I think the member probably knows that most industrial manufacturers of ethanol in Canada believe they need a subsidy initially, and I say initially because the longer-term market I think will more or less look after that over time, in the order of 25 cents a litre. That is the approximate level that Saskatchewan is providing. The industry people who have spoken with us indicate that is the range that would be required to make production affordable.

It is somewhat lower than the American subsidy levels in total because Manitoba and Saskatche- wan are extremely efficient locations in which to locate ethanol plants. That said, we are still at a stage of finalizing the panel's report so that we can complete our dialogue with Manitobans and particularly with those co-ops and other groups in the Russell, Beausejour, Dauphin and south Killarney area as to what would be the appropri- ate plans for their particular communities. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Member for Springfield, on his second supplementary question. Mr.

Schuler: My question is: What level of commitment is his Government prepared to make, and has the Government discussed with the interested parties the possibility of taking a stakeholder position in these new ethanol plants? Mr. Sale: Well, first of all, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the specific level of commitment would be a budgetary matter and that would be something I would obviously defer to Cabinet and to the honourable Finance Minister (Mr. Selinger), with regard to that specific issue. In regard to the notion of equity, I think the panel heard many, many useful views on the question of equity.

Farming communities, farmers specifically, expressed their interest in making sure that whatever Manitoba's plans were they included a significant role for equity on the part of producers. So that there would be a local stake the major manufacturers or refiners that we have spoken to have also indicated their interest in having equity from the communities in which their plants would be located. I think we are of one mind on that issue. An Honourable Member: Mr. Deputy Speaker, point of order. Point of Order Mr. Deputy Speaker: Point of order being raised. Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Deputy Speaker, if you do a check with the Clerk, you will notice that we are at question 8. The member has missed his opportunity. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Leader had raised a point of order because the normal practice in the House is that the Government's question would be the sixth in the list after the honourable member for the Liberal Party had asked a question. Now we are on the eighth question so I am bound by procedure and practice to follow tradition. Therefore, I have to agree with the honourable Opposition House

142 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 3, 2002 Leader that we have to be consistent in our ractices. The seventh question. p * * * Mr. Deputy Speaker: Unless you have some other opinion. I welcome any other opinion. The honourable Opposition House Leader. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I usually would not intervene, but you have asked for further interventions although you have already made a ruling on this particular matter. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would urge you to reconsider this approach , recognizing that the Member for River Heig hts (Mr.

Gerrard) was not here today and there was a single question put by the Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach). So I would urge that the Chair have some atitude in recognizing the government members. l Mr. Laurendeau: We have been operating under this routine now since the new Government was formed in '99. I was able to count without having to keep notes and I am sure the members of the Government were able to count, or maybe they were not and that is where the problem is, but, Mr. Deputy Speaker, they were aware that Doctor Gerrard was not here, I mean the honourable Member for River Heights.

They missed their number and you have already made the decision. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The practices so far, as it had happened, the honourable Member for River Heights is always the cue for the Government to ask the question. It just so happened that in this particular instance today there is no such cue. Therefore, there are reasonable grounds for Government to miss the opportunity. As a result of this I do not want to establish any new ruling or anything. I am taking the issue under advisement for further study. * (14:10) Elk Population Distribution–Minister's Direction Mr.

Deputy Speaker: In the meantime, I recognize the first one I put my eye on. The honourable Member for Ste. Rose. Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Yesterday and the day before we have been accusing this Government of doing very little to help with the management of the tuberculosis potential outbreak in Riding Mountain National Park, but occasionally I believe the Minister of Agriculture does make decisions, and I would ask if she would tell this Assembly what recommendations she made regarding the dispersal of the last of the elk herds that were held in captivity at Riding Mountain.

Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agri- culture and Food): Mr. Deputy Speaker, there have been elk held for some time in this province, ever since the previous government took the initiative to capture elk in Riding Mountain, and then we were restricted from disposing of those elk by CFIA. Many elk had been put down but there were 260 elk that were being held until recently. Early in October, I believe, the CFIA gave approval. They gave a clean bill of health to these animals and when that clean bill of health was given those elk were dispersed. Those elk went to licensed elk farms in Manitoba. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: The honourable Member for Ste. Rose, on his first supplementary ques- tion. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Deputy Speaker, on a new question. Mr. Deputy Speaker: He wants to ask a new question. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Deputy Speaker, the member managed to avoid answering what direction she gave for the dispersal of these elk. I would ask her again to indicate what her involvement was in the decision to disperse the elk. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the Province of Manitoba, the Government of Mani- toba, has been holding elk for some time that were captured by the previous administration at a huge cost to the Province. So when we got a clean bill of health for the balance of the elk that we had, 260 elk, I gave the direction to the

December 3, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 143 department to dispose of those elk and have them distributed. Those elk have gone to two licensed elk farms. They have been dispersed. I think the elk have gone. The elk have gone to Swan Lake and to Keeseekoowenin. They have gone to Aborig- inals who signed agreements with the Province for capturing elk but had not been compensated as they should have been, and we are trying to address an outstanding issue left by the previous government. Mr. Deputy Speaker: On another new question, the honourable Member for Ste. Rose. Mr.

Cummings: What direction did she give regarding the dispersal of these elk, or is she saying that she left where they went entirely to the discretion of the department? Ms. Wowchuk: No, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I gave very clear direction to the department on the disposal of these elk. There were outstanding issues with First Nations who had agreements signed with the previous government and were not compensated for the elk they captured or the elk they were holding. We were trying to resolve an outstanding issue left for us by the previous government when they got the elk capture started.

I asked the department to disperse these elk in a way that would help the Aboriginal people get started in the elk industry. Surely the Opposition does not oppose the Aboriginal people being involved in the elk industry when it was they who asked the Aboriginal people to be involved in the capture. Mr. Cummings: New question, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Member for Ste. Rose, on the fourth new question. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Deputy Speaker, this minister says she gave clear direction.

Did she in fact give direction that they be disposed of to those particular individuals or groups that are holding them? Is she not aware there are a number of other Aboriginal communities that are prepared to become involved? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Deputy Speaker, the agreement the previous government signed was with the Manitoba First Nations Elk and Bison Council. That is who they signed the agreement with. That is who the elk went to and the Manitoba Elk and Bison Council made a decision as to which location the elk should go. They signed an agreement with the Elk and Bison Council.

The Elk and Bison Council made the decision on where the animals should go. Mr. Cummings: On a new question, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The fifth new question. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am not counting at the moment because I am par- ticularly disturbed that the minister a moment ago said she directed that they go to those two sites. Now she says somebody else made the decision. Which was it? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Deputy Speaker, the agreement that was signed by the previous government was the Manitoba chiefs on behalf of the Manitoba First Nations Elk and Bison Council.

Those were the people who had the agreement signed with the previous government. We were trying to resolve an outstanding issue. When the elk the Government was holding got a clean bill of health we came to an understanding with the Elk and Bison Council who then made a decision to disperse the elk. The elk were dispersed at two locations that are licensed elk farms. I just have a hard time with this member. It appears this member, a lthough he was prepared to sign an agreement with First Nations to capture elk, he is opposed to First Nations now participating in elk ranching. If that is your opinion, tell us.

Mr. Cummings: Mr. Deputy Speaker, on a new question. This minister knows full well that I signed the agreement with Western Region Tribal Council. I asked the question: Did she direct where they were going? She said yes and then she said, oh, no, it was not me, it was somebody

144 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 3, 2002 else. I want her to put it on the record. Did she give any direction on the distribution of these elk? Ms. Wowchuk: I guess I will answer the same question again. The contract was signed with Manitoba First Nations Elk and Bison Council. That is who he signed the contract with when he made the decision to capture elk, even though the federal government advised him against capturing elk in Riding Mountain because there was a risk of TB in them. He made the decision. We are trying to correct the issue.

When those elk were given a clean bill of health they went to the Manitoba Elk and Bison Council and the Elk and Bison Council made the decisions as to where the elk should go. The elk are at two licensed facilities. Again, I am assuming the member is now implying that First Nations should not be involved in elk ranching and that is why he is raising these. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Deputy Speaker, the minister– Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is this a supplementary or a new question? Mr. Cummings: New question, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Mr. Deputy Speaker: New question. Mr.

Cummings: There are two First Nations in my constituency that also elk ranch. I am asking this minister if she made a recommendation or made a decision to encourage the distribution of these elk before they were handed over to the Manitoba Aboriginal elk producers. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Deputy Speaker, that may have been the way the previous government interfered when it came to these kinds of issues but I can tell you that if he is asking whether I interfered the answer is no. The elk were transferred to the Manitoba Elk and Bison Council.

I can tell the member that I was not even aware of the location of the distribution until the distribution was complete, which was at the end of November. * (14:20) Mr. Cummings: Mr. Deputy Speaker, on a new question. Mr. Deputy Speaker: On a new question. Mr. Cummings: Because on this side of the House we have a significant amount of distrust of the answers that we are receiving from this minister and her involvement in the handling of the development of the elk industry in this province. My question to her again, when she, first of all, provided information to the House, she now says she was unaware.

She was certainly aware of the problem in Riding Mountain National Park when she made the decision to disperse. Is she saying she decided to disperse those elk at the very time that herds adjacent to them were being tested for possible contamination? She tried to make an issue that this was not an important issue. She has not chosen her option to put a double fence around the com- pound where those elk came from. Mr. Deputy Speaker: I did not hear any question, so there is nothing to answer. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Deputy Speaker, thank you for that.

I guess the member was using this time to make a member's statement perhaps, but I would question the member's motives here when he is saying we should not have dispersed elk when it is the federal government, CFIA, that has the responsibility to clear the status of this herd. These herds were held for over two years. It was CFIA that gave the clearance on these animals. Now the member is talking about double fencing around elk farms. I am surprised if that is the area where the member thinks how elk farming should be done.

Why did his govern- ment not put those regulations in place when they started the industry? They started the industry. There was no demand for double fencing then. Suddenly he has changed the rules.

December 3, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 145 Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I have not recognized the honourab le member. I have to remind that every member of the House should be mindful of the fact that Question Period is putting a question and giving an answer. It is not an occasion for debate. There is a specific forum for debate. If we use the Question Period debating an issue, that is contrary to the spirit of Question Period.

If I see occasion when there is not even a question, and there is no question, there being no answer, and people are still taking the floor, there is a looseness of procedure in this House. I do not know how many independent questions a member can ask. That is still open for us to make the necessary rules, but in the meantime there are no rules. I recognize the Member for Ste. Rose. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Deputy Speaker, certainly we appreciate how difficult it is to have control in this Chamber from time to time.

On a new question to the Minister of Agriculture, I am trying to ascertain what knowledge she had and what involvement she had in the distribution of the elk, because it is very unusual that two hundred and some elk would be distributed to two locations in this province and that they would be moved at the very time when the beef industry in that part of the province feels threatened. I am asking the minister to acknowledge that she made that decision with the full knowledge that there was a potential outbreak of TB near that herd when they we re dispersed. Does she know that or not? Ms. Wowchuk: Well, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, these elk that we are in discussion on were captured by the previous administration at a time when they were advised by CFIA not to do a capture because there was a risk. He was the minister at the time; he made the decision to capture. We inherited the issue and have been working at it since we have taken office. This fall we got a clean bill of health on the 260 elk that were being held at Inglis. When we got that clean bill of health, TB-free status, the elk were transferred to the Manitoba First Nations Elk and Bison Council.

The Elk and Bison Council made a decision as to where they would move those elk, because they now belong to the Manitoba elk and bison foundation. That is who owns them. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the member is talking about TB in the area. Cattle are being tested and the elk were tested. The elk have a TB-free status and have the ability to move them. Surely the member does not think we should continue to hold and feed these elk at public expense because he captured them when they should not have been captured. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Deputy Speaker, on a new uestion. q Mr. Deputy Speaker: On a new question. Mr.

Cummings: This is getting sillier and sillier on the part of the minister. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The hon- ourable Member for Ste. Rose shall put the question. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Deputy Speaker, this minister now tries to switch the issue to whether or not the elk should have been caught. The issue is what involvement and what knowledge did she have about the distribution of those elk. [interjection] The chirping across the way says that the CFIA cleared them. The fact is there is a known problem in the area where they were being held.

Why would she fly in the face of the people in the community who were concerned about the possibility of those elk having a cross-fence recontamination? Will she say whether or not she had any knowledge of that? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would ask the member why he flew in the face of the advice that he was given by CFIA not to capture elk in the Riding Mountain. That is the advice he was given. He chose to not listen to it. So it was okay for them. We have not gone against the advice of CFIA. CFIA has monitored the herds very closely. CFIA has given the TB-free status.

146 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 3, 2002 I can tell the member as well that my department and the Department of Conservation, along with the Manitoba Cattle Producers and Parks Canada and others, are working to address the issue of the elk herd and TB in the region. There has been a plan put in place and we are working on it. We are not turning a bl ind eye to it, as the previous government did, because they did abso- lutely nothing. They did absolutely nothing when they knew there was a risk of TB. All they did was capture elk and then bring them into the areas where there was cattle as well.

So let them not throw stones. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The time for Question Period has expired. Mr. Speaker in the Chair MEMBERS' STATEMENTS International Day of Disabled Persons Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I would like to bring to the attention of the members of this House that today, December 3, is the International Day of Disabled Persons.

In 1992, the United Nations General Assembly proclaimed this day as a means to increase the awareness and understanding of issues facing people with mental and physical disabilities and to mobilize support for practical action at all levels by, with and for persons with disabilities. This morning, in our own city, the Inde- pendent Living Resource Centre held a launch to commemorate the International Day of Disabled Persons. The honourable Member for Kirkfield Park (Mr. Murray), alon g with the Member for River Heights (Mr.

Ge rrard) attended the important event, but unfortunately the Minister responsible for Persons with Disabilities (Mr. Caldwell) could not find the time to show his respect for this province's worthy individuals whom he represents. * (14:30) The theme of this y ear's observance of the International Day of Disabled Persons is inde- pendent living and sustainable livelihoods. This topic reflects the increasing integration of persons with disabilities into all facets of soci- ety, including work, recreation and community life.

Policies and strategies to bring persons with disabilities into the social and economic main- stream are increasingly recognized as superior, both economically and socially, because they focus on strengthening people's capacities, thus increasing their economi c self-reliance and inte- gration while decreasing their dependence on social services. Manitobans with disabilities are increasingly acknowledged, and rightfully so, for their valu- able contributions to our province and country.

Their important skills and strong commitment to the communities in which they live serve as a benefit to each and every member of society. Fortunately, Manitobans are increasingly recog- nizing people's abilities before perceiving their disabilities and encouraging the participation of those with disabilities in all aspects of life and society. I would like to take this opportunity to con- gratulate all persons with disabilities on this important day of recognition and appreciation for all that they provide to our province and country.

I would also like to extend my gratitude to all those involved in working to promote understanding of the issues facing persons with disabilities and to ultimately uphold the equality of all human beings. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Independent Living Resource Centre Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): Mr. Speaker, this morning I had the pleasure also of attending the open house at the Independent Living Resource Centre's new office space in Portage Place, as well, on behalf of the Premier (Mr. Doer), which I was only too happy to, since I had met many of them when I attended their AGM in St. James.

The event was held today to recognize and celebrate the United Nations International Day of Disabled Persons. The open house today launched ILRC's year-long awareness campaign, entitled "Un- tapped, Untold, Unlimited–Independent Living, Building a Better Canada for Everyone". I was very impressed with the new premises and the variety of services the centre offers.

December 3, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 147 The ILRC, which first opened in 1984, is operated for and by people of all ages and types of disabilities and works to promote full inte- gration into the community. Mr. Speaker, the ILRC distributes infor- mation on services offered by other agencies and reacts to gaps in existing programs by imple- menting pilot projects that will eventually be continued by appropriate community organiza- tions. The ILRC's unique delivery approach to services is flexible and custom designed to meet the needs of the individual.

I was particularly impressed with the presentation by the Kids on the Block, an edu- cational troupe of puppets that teaches young audiences about what it is like to have a disability. These puppets encourage children to accept differences in others, a critical step in changing society's attitudes towards the disabled in the future. I also met Connie Elcomb, a talented artist, who painted the mural in the ILRC's office space. I want to thank the ILRC for the invitation to their open house today.

The work the ILRC does is invaluable to the community, and it is impossible to underestimate the impact that their efforts have on the lives of Manitobans with disabilities. I want to congratulate the ILRC on their new offices in Portage Place and wish them con- tinued success in the fu ture. I was also very pleased– Mr. Speaker: Order. Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, on December 1, I had the pleasure of attending the presentation of the Commander-in- Chief's Unit Commendation to the Second Battalion Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry.

The Right Honourable Adrienne Clarkson, Governor General, presented the 2PPCLI with a special unit commendation at an inspiring ceremony at the Winnipeg Arena. The 2PPCLI soldiers received the Governor General's com- mendation for the courage and skill they displayed in a battle at Medak Pocket, Croatia, in 1993. The troops were in the former Yugo- slavia as peacekeepers deployed on Operation Harmony, a United Nations operation in the region.

Although the mission assigned to the 2PPCLI was to implement the latest cease-fire agreement between Croatian army troops and Serbian regular forces, the soldiers became the targets of the Croatian army, who in an attempt to stop the Canadian advance, opened fire with machine guns, mortars and artillery. For the 15- hour duration of that battle, the Canadian soldiers were forced to draw upon their war fighting skills in order to protect not only themselves but also innocent civilians who were just beyond the front lines.

As the Canadian troops drove the Croatian forces back, they limited injuries to themselves, while forcing a stop to the horrendous practice of ethnic cleans- ing, thus saving hundreds of lives. Although they showed great bravery and orderliness on the battlefield, the greatest demonstration of military professionalism and discipline came after the confrontation was over. Following the retreat of the Croatian army, the Canadian Forces immediately reverted to their role as impartial peacekeepers, a significant feat considering just moments before the Croatians had attempted to kill them. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to take this moment to congratulate the members of 2PPCLI for receiving the Commander-in-Chief's Unit Commendation. Without their valour, courage and diplomacy many innocent lives would have been tragically lost. To all the troops of the 2PPCLI, thank you. We salute you. Flin Flon Mall Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): This is the first opportunity I have had to bring to the attention of this Legislature a much anticipated event which occurred at 8 a.m. on November 14. That event, which I had the pleasure to attend, was the grand opening of the huge Wal-Mart store in the city of Flin Flon.

Simultaneously, the

148 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 3, 2002 McDonald's restaurant within the store cele- brated its grand opening. The large empty lot beside the Victoria Inn is empty no longer. After 30 years, the first phase of the Flin Flon Mall is a reality. The new businesses located there now and the new or relocated businesses that will be there in the future will draw shoppers from all over the region. This means more jobs for Flin Flon. This means more choice for northern shoppers.

When my wife and I visited the new mall last Saturday, we met shoppers, not only from Flin Flon, Creighton and Denare Beach, but also people from Cranberry Po rtage, Sherridon, The Pas, Snow Lake and communities in north- eastern Saskatchewan. This mall will continue to grow, continue to service the entire region and will be an important economic boost for Flin lon. F I thank all three levels of government for working so hard to make phase 1 of the Flin Flon Mall a reality.

Special thanks go to Mayor Dennis Ballard, City Council, the staff of City Hall, particularly Director of Operations Kevin Komarnicky, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms. Friesen) and Deputy Minister Marie lliot. E Last, but not least, I would like to thank the developer, Kraft Construction, and more par- ticularly, Henry Rattai, whose vision of making the Flin Flon Mall a reality never wavered. We thank all those who made phase 1 of the Flin Flon Mall a reality. All of us look forward to the phase 2 expansion of the Flin Flon Mall. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Air Ambulances Mr.

Leonard Derkach (Russell): I rise in this House today to raise an issue regarding the air ambulance for Manitoba. The Pasieczka family is left with many unanswered questions and frustration about the lack of compassion, under- standing and support from the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) and this Government in the complete and unexpected circumstances sur- rounding the premature birth of their baby aughter, Adriana. d The Government jet, which doubles as a medivac, is used for medical emergencies as a priority. It is the same plane that is used for flying ministers and the Premier (Mr.

Doer) anywhere in Canada or North America. Why, then, is there a double standard here when it comes to the transportation of people who require a specialized mode of transportation to get a very sensitive and very seriously ill or in this case a newborn baby back to the province of Manitoba? Mr.

Speaker, I ask the Government when it is going to show some compassion and under- standing for situations like this and change a policy which is outdated from allowing ministers and the Premier at taxpayers' expense to fly anywhere in Canada and in North America, at the same time not allowing this plane to be used for a very serious medical situation where the family was prepared to pay for the cost of transporting that child back to this province using the air ambulance. This minister oftentimes blasts the American system.

I remind him that it was an American jet that flew this baby back to our province, an American jet whose firm said: We will cut the costs by two-thirds as a compassion shown to this family, to bring this family back to this rovince. p I think the Minister of Health should be ashamed of himself. This Government should be ashamed of itself for doing what it did to a Manitoba family and to a young Manitoba child ho was born outside of this country. w * (14:40) ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Mr. Speaker: Order.

If members wish to have a conversation, they can do it in the loge or out in the hallway. I have to be able to hear the Government House Leader for government business. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you canvass the House to see if there is agreement for the House to set aside consideration of the Throne Speech tomorrow, Wednesday, December 4, to consider

December 3, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 149 government business, specifically Bill 2 and condolence motions? Mr. Speaker: Is there agreement for the House to set aside consideration of the Throne Speech debate tomorrow, Wednesday, December 4, 2002, in order to consider government business, specifically Bill 2 and condolence motions? Is there agreement? [Agreed] ADJOURNED DEBATE (Fourth Day of Debate) Mr. Speaker: Resumed debate on the proposed motion of the honourable Member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr.

Murray) in amendment thereto, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Hawranik ) who has 35 minutes remaining. Mr. Gerald Hawran ik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I again welcom e the opportunity to continue debate on the Throne Speech and to continue where I left off yesterday. I would like to extend congratulations to the recipients of the Queen's Jubilee award winners from our constituency. In fact, we have six recipients from Lac du Bonnet constituency in total. Karen Dudeck, who lives in Tyndall, is a tireless volunteer.

She was involved in organ- izing the Taking Pride Days in Tyndall. From the beginning of the Taking Pride Days, she took control and, in fact, organized the entire festival and has done so for a number of years already. She is involved, of course, in fundraising events for the Tyndall Community Centre. Now that Tyndall and Garson are in the process of amal- gamating, she has been involved as a volunteer helping both communities, both Tyndall and Garson. She has also taken a very active

part in the Home and School Association in Garson. June Kotchon, who resides in Garson is a tireless volunteer in the Garson area. She is a real asset to her community. Anton Ottenbreit, whom I know personally, last year was 101 years old. He is a consummate volunteer and a community pioneer and a member of St. Mary's Roman Catholic Church, where I attend church with my family. Carl Sabanski, who resides in Pinawa, is the founder of the Pinawa Suspension Bridge and the Pinawa Sundial Project and the Pinawa in Bloom Festival. He has wo rked tirelessly for his community as a volunteer.

Barb Sabanski, his spouse, is also a volunteer, so it really becomes a family volunteership in that community. She, in fact, has been involved from day one in the Lac du Bonnet and area food bank and other com- munity activities in Pinawa and in Lac du Bonnet. Ken MacMaster, has the distinction of being the 50th Golden Jubilee Award winner but he was also the 25th Jubilee Award winner. He has been a volunteer for the fire department in Bird River, and he has worked with the Lac du Bonnet community centre in fundraising activi- ties, ensuring that the project was funded a few years ago.

In fact, he was the Member for Thompson for the Progressive Conservative Party a number of years ago as well. Gordon Emberley, the next volunteer, lives in Lac du Bonnet. He was instrumental in establishing the Western Canadian Aviation Museum and, in fact, received the Order of Canada a number of years ago for his work with the Canadian Aviation Museum. He also works tirelessly with heritage groups in Lac du Bonnet. They are all consummate volunteers. They all made their communities a better place to live, to work and to raise our children.

All have said in their acceptance speeches when they were given their award that they are humbled. They also thanked other community volunteers within their community in helping them accomplish their objectives. Volunteers create an identity for each and every community in which they live. The identity that each of those volunteers created for their community was one of compassion, caring and community spirit. For that I thank them. I would also like to congratulate the new councils in the constituency and the school board trustees. They all face new challenges. I believe

150 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 3, 2002 that everyone who was elected was very capable. They are community-minded people. They are all volunteers. I would congratulate all of them and wish them the best of luck in their next four years in municipal government and the next four years as school board tr ustees in the Lac du Bonnet constituency. I would also like to thank all council members and trustees, reeves and mayors who decided not to run again and those, of course, who ran but were not successful.

I would like to thank them for all their hard work and the dedi- cated service to their communities. I believe they made their communities a better place to work, to live and to raise their children. I think it is important when doing a debate on the Speech from the Throne not only that we talk about what was in that Throne Speech, but in fact, what was not in that Throne Speech. That, I think, is where I would like to focus a little bit of my debate, in terms of what was not in that Throne Speech. I think I would like to refer to an

article written a number of days ago by Tom Brodbeck of The Winnipeg Sun. I think he put it quite suc- cinctly when he wrote an

article in terms of what the Throne Speech did not say. The NDP's idea of fiscal management, I think, is about spending more money. It is not about efficiency. It is not about competition. It is not about streamlining programs to get the best value for your dollar. Inst ead, I think it is more about monopolies and spend, spend, spend. They have had a great deal of spending money. They have had a great deal of spending money since taking office. I think the biggest windfall has really come from the federal government.

The federal government takes responsibility and should be taking responsibility for giving more money to the provincial government to spend. After years of declining transfer pay- ments from Ottawa in the 1990s, when the current Government came into power, the trans- fer payments from the federal government started to skyrocket. In 1998 to 1999, the last fiscal year of the previous government, the PC government, the total transfers from Ottawa were $1.6 billion. In 1999, the first year that the current Government took office, federal transfers soared to $2.1 billion.

They were $500 million higher than the previous year. They have increased every year since and are projected to come in at about $2.4 billion this year. The NDP has $800 million more a year to spend from Ottawa than the former administra- tion in the last year of government. That is enough to run the departments of Justice, Trans- portation, Conservation and Agriculture all combined. If you add in more than a hundred million dollars in new money being taken from Manitoba Hydro, you can see why it has been a cakewalk for the current Government to balance the books, despite massive spending increases.

But there could be trouble. There could be trouble on the horizon. Manitoba's economy has gone into collapse, I believe, since the NDP took over, it has not gone into collapse, but there are some discouraging signs, and I think they ought to take notice of those signs. Manitoba's employment growth last year was only half the national average. Private investment in Manitoba is down. After a decade of improvements in interprovincial migration, Manitoba is losing more people every year, again to other provinces.

One of the reasons we have a low unemployment rate, I believe, in Manitoba is that so many people are leaving. Manitoba's big challenge in the 1990s was to clean up its books and to diversify its economy, and I think that is what was done in the 1990s. The next step for the province is to become more competitive and to attract more capital to bolster our economic output, create higher paying jobs and stop the exodus of skilled workers. I believe the current Government has failed miserably at that because they do not know how to do it.

They talk in circles about industries we already have, such as Manitoba Hydro, but if you listen carefully, you will hear no specific plan on how to attract new businesses. * (14:50) We always hear about Manitoba's economic growth, the gross domestic product. They say that it is equal or better than the national average, but actually that is just the percentage

December 3, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 151 the economy grows from one year to the next. What you rarely hear is the fact that for the past 20 years, Manitoba's per capita GDP, which is our economic growth based on our population, has been well below the national average. Per capita GDP nationally was $32,975 in 2001, and in Manitoba, it was only $28,960, which means it is 12 percent below the national average. That gap has widened since the late 1990s. I think that is the real story, but you will not hear that story in the Speech from the Throne. Manitoba is lagging in growth.

The Manitoba in Profile report, released in early November of 2002 by the Canada West Foundation, shows that Manitoba's population is expected to grow at one th ird of the national rate over the next 25 years. The report also shows that an average of 5000 people leave the province every year. Is that something to be proud of? I do not think so. It is no small wonder why we have one of the lowest unemployment rates in the country. If you did not have a job and you did not have any prospects for a job, what would you do? I am sure you would leave the province.

That is why we have so many people leaving, and that is why our unem- ployment rate is so low. Economic growth is important to the Lac du Bonnet constituency. It is important that we create jobs and ensure that we keep our young people there, and important that we continue to secure the services that we currently enjoy, services such as health care services and edu- cation services. The Lac du Bonnet constituency is really a reflection of the entire province itself. We have everything the province has. We have rich agricultural land for farming. We have rivers for power generati on.

We have lakes for recreation and tourism. We have forests for pulp and paper and lumber. We have peat for harvest- ing and also we have minerals for mining. We have all of that, and yet, we have really failed to grow substantially in the last 20 or 30 years. Why is that? Well, one of the problems is that Atomic Energy of Canada Limited is in the process of withdrawing from our communities. It just does not affect the community of Pinawa. It affects the communities of Lac du Bonnet, Whitemouth, Beausejour, Pine Falls, Power- view.

It affects all our communities, and what they have done is they have begun to withdraw from our community and withdraw the jobs that are there and transfer them to Ontario. We fail to grow because of that, and we need to replace those jobs with other important jobs in our community. But we do have one resource, I think, that counts above all this in the constitu- ency, and that is the people in Lac du Bonnet constituency and their entrepreneurial spirit. I think that will, hopefully, pull us through.

Some recent exciting developments in the constituency, which I believe will create eco- nomic growth, and I want to go through them all in terms of the area from which these develop- ments are occurring. First, the Pine Falls- Powerview area. Both of those communities, in fact, are discussing merger . They are not talking about a forced merger. They are talking about a voluntary merger, a merge of those two com- munities into one economic unit, into one political unit, into one community, and I think it is good for those two communities.

I believe it will help them to attract industry, businesses and jobs for their community, and I support that merger. Another development is the sawmill that is proposed by Tembec in Pine Falls. They have put that on hold at this point, as I understand, because of the softwood lumber dispute between Canada and United States, but once that is solved, I am assured by people at Tembec that they will be proceeding with that sawmill and, in fact, will create the needed jobs in that area, probably in the neighbourhood of 100 to 200 direct jobs in that community.

The road on the east side of Lake Winnipeg is an important initiative and I applaud the Government for, in fact, appointing Phil Fontaine, he is a very reputable person, to a committee that is studying the effect of the road on the east side of Lake Winnipeg and to ensure that the Aboriginal communities have a voice and have opportunities to give input in terms of the road on the east side of Lake Winnipeg. In that area, we also need to improve Provincial Road 304. I have mentioned that road at least four or five times here in the Legislature to members opposite, and I will mention it again.

I think Provincial Road 304 is, in fact, the

152 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 3, 2002 priority road that needs to be rebuilt in the constituency and the Government ought to look toward rebuilding that ro ad in the near future. Provincial Road 304 connects Provincial Trunk Highway No. 11 and Provincial Trunk Highway No. 59 in a southerly direction from Powerview. Eight or nine years ago, that road was rebuilt to within about 10 kilometres of Powerview. The balance of that road needs to be rebuilt. It does not have any shoulders. It is in terrible condition.

It is just in terrible condition, and it really presents a hazardous situ ation for the travelling public, for the people who are in Powerview, Pine Falls, St-Georges and people north along 304 in Manigotagan and Bissett, when they have to travel to Winnipeg or to Selkirk for goods and services for their community. I think what compounds that problem is the fact that many of the pulp trucks, lumber trucks and transport trucks which service those com- munities travel Provincial Road 304, and, of course, so do the travelling public in those areas. It is a very dangerous road and a very dangerous situation.

I think it needs to be remedied and rectified sooner rather than later. I would encourage the Government to rebuild that road as soon as possible. I will continue to push for Provincial Road 304 to be rebuilt. The area needs sewer and water infra- structure in the Rural Municipality of Alexander. Everyone has the right to a clean water supply. I believe the people in the R.M. of Alexander have waited much too long for that service. I support them in their project and I commend them in their efforts, particularly the Rural Municipality of Alexander, in attempting to get Canada-Manitoba infrastructure funds.

I support them in their venture and I support them in their application, and I will continue to do so. The town of Lac du Bonnet and the Rural Municipality of Lac du Bonnet is really in a new era of co-operation and regionalization. They received a new mayor in Rod Demoline for the Town of Lac du Bonnet and a new reeve in the R.M. of Lac du Bonnet by the name of Don Halbert. They are very community-minded people.

In fact, when I attended the all- candidates meeting in Lac du Bonnet, I heard both of them say that they want both the town and the Rural Municipality of Lac du Bonnet to co-operate and to form one region to attract industry and business to their area to create jobs and needed growth for their area. I was very encouraged by that. I believe they will take reasonable steps and appropriate steps to achieve that end.

They realize they need to construct an industrial park for the area in order to attract industry and they need, of course, to set up a development corporation, which would be inde- pendent from the town and rural municipality and to develop a strategy to develop I think their most obvious resource, which is their tourism potential, considering the fact that, of course, they have got the LaVerendrye Trail going right through Lac du Bonnet. Pinawa is another community in Lac du Bonnet constituency. It was the community that was hit hard the most in terms of Atomic Energy of Canada when it decided to leave the area.

It needs to attract new industry to their area and new business. They have incredible tourism potential in that area because of the natural beauty of that area. They still have, I believe, the scientific expertise to attract and hold new businesses, new businesse s such as the labora- tory for the study of world climate change which was announced by the Minister of Energy, Science and Technology (Mr. Sale). I thank him for the announcement that he is, in fact, in support of Pinawa's application for that laboratory. I wholehearted ly support that appli- cation.

I will do whatever I can to assist the minister to ensure that happens in that com- munity. * (15:00) The council of the LGD of Pinawa has an incredible challenge to ensure the future viability of their town, but I believe that they are up to that challenge. I have met with the council. I am impressed with their commitment and their attitude in terms of attracting business. I believe they are up to that ch allenge, and they are incredibly hard working. I will assist them wherever possible to achieve that goal, to attract more business and industry and more jobs to that area.

The Whitemouth-Seven Sisters-Elma- Rennie area, Whiteshell Provincial Park area is

December 3, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 153 incredibly beautiful and a picturesque area with tourism potential. The council of the R.M. of Whitemouth has a proactive municipal council which recognizes that it can grow from within. It needs to develop its local entrepreneurs to ensure growth, prosperity and jobs. That is the challenge. The challenge is to reverse the trend in loss of population. I graduated from White- mouth School in 1970. At that time, there were more than 600 students attending the White- mouth School. Today, just over 200 students attend that school.

That is an incredible loss of population for that area. There are a number of bright spots in the Rural Municipality of Whitemouth, not the least of which, of course, is the mix of council that they have today and the reeve that they have in Don Nichol. There are a number of develop- ments that are worthy of mention. First of all, in Whitemouth, the South Interlake Credit Union is, in fact, building a brand-new building after the Royal Bank withdrew from the community. I think that is a very good sign. There have been several new housing starts in that community within the last few years.

They have great entrepreneurs in that area. Dueck's Mechanical manufactures Diamond Shelters and ships them around North America and has developed a North American reputation for excellence in what they do. The Barkman family is involved in a hydroponic vegetable growing operation just outside Whitemouth. That is set for expansion and for increased employment opportunities for that area. The Beausejour-Broke nhead area needs to be mentioned. It also needs to continue, I believe, to attract new industry, business and jobs to that area.

They have an ethanol com- mittee whose job it is to attract an industry in the ethanol business to ensure that they manufacture ethanol within our community. I believe that ethanol is a proper fit fo r the community. It has the workforce in our area. There is a workforce. There is the excess grain that is required to operate an ethanol plant. It is close enough to Winnipeg. It is near the market. It is near feed markets for the residue. It has railway trackage, and it also has grain handling facilities. Those are all elements that are required before you, in fact, establish an ethanol plant in any community.

I think it has all the elements, and I think it ought to be seriously considered in terms of when the time comes to locate a plant within Manitoba. I would like to thank Randy Bialek and Robert Small and Anupam Sharma and all the ethanol committee members for all their hard work that they have put forward in the last six months to a year. Drainage is always an important issue within our constituency. Drainage is an important issue because a lot of water from the west and from the south and from the east comes through our constituency into the Winnipeg River and then into Lake Winnipeg.

It is an important issue because of the fact that we have a great deal of water flowing through our constituency. The industry that employs the most people in our constituency is still farming. The farming community is really being hard hit in terms of input costs. The input costs have increased, which are beyond their control. The commodity prices are low, and, of course, they have no control over commodity prices, so profits for farmers are being squeezed. If you add to that drainage problems within the constituency, they have loss of crop and loss of inputs.

I think drainage has to be looked at within our constituency. I know the Government has said in the past that they have increased the drainage budgets, but, in fact, the drainage budget with respect to drainage maintenance– drainage maintenance is what moves the dirt. If you do not move the dirt, the higher the back- flows, water does not move. The drainage budget for drainage mainte- nance has really not increased over the last 20 years. Twenty years ago, it was $4 million. Today, it is roughly $4 million.

We need to increase that drainage maintenance budget at least 2 times what it is today or 3 times what it is today, because we all know what $4 million bought 20 years ago is not the same as what $4 million will buy today. There is a bright spot, though, I can tell you, in the Beausejour-Brokenhead area in terms of we do have proactive and energetic councils in Beausejour and Brokenhead. Beausejour and Brokenhead, of course, are the third fastest growing areas in terms of population in eastern

154 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 3, 2002 Manitoba over the last five years. I think that is a tribute to the councils that were there and a tribute to the councils that are here today. The Tyndall and Garson area needs to be mentioned. Those communities are undergoing a voluntary amalgamation process which will be complete by the end of this year. They are involved with a sewer and water project to ensure there are sewer and water services throughout both communities. Really, that will ensure the growth of those two communities.

After the amalgamation, those communities will be larger than the town of Pine Falls and nearly the population of the town of Lac du Bonnet. I predict that those two communities will be the future growth centre in our constitu- ency. Health care is an important issue in our constituency. I know that NEHA, the North Eastman Health Associatio n, has, in fact, made an announcement with respect to the possibility of building a new hospital, a new regional hospital for our area.

In fact, in my maiden speech to this Legislature in April of last year, I mentioned the possibility of a new hospital, a regional hospital, and the fact that one was needed in our constituency. I am glad that NEHA has, in fact, taken notice and, in fact, has continued to support me in that regard. It needs to be a regional hospital. The hospital that is being proposed would service the communities of the town of Lac du Bonnet, the rural municipality of Lac du Bonnet, Pinawa, Seven Sisters, Whitemouth, the Whiteshell area and the Nopiming Provincial Park area. So it is a large area that it needs to service.

Currently, there is a hospital in Whitemouth, but it really has become a nursing home, a personal care home. Really, the function has changed over the years since when I was in Whitemouth. As well, there is a hospital in Pinawa. NEHA understands and recognizes that that hospital needs major upgrades in order to maintain its hospital status and, in fact, has looked into the possibility of renovating or adding to it or replacing it.

They have come to the conclusion, as I understand it, that it would be cheaper, in fact, to build a new hospital or maybe cheaper to build a new hospital and to convert the existing hospital in Pinawa into a personal care home or other health care facility. My concern is that it is built and that it does get built, not necessarily where it goes. I am committed to ensure that funding is, in fact, received by NEHA for the building of that hospital. My concern is that it is a regional hospital. My concern is not where it is built, in which community it is built.

I know that people in Pinawa want the hospital to be in Pinawa. Lac du Bonnet wants the hospital in Lac du Bonnet, and Whitemouth wants the hospital in White- mouth. My only concern is that NEHA consults with all those communities and makes sure that the councils have input within each of those communities, that residents have input within each of those communities and that health professionals who work within each of those communities have input, whether it be the nurses or the physicians or whether it be the ambulance attendants or the fire department or the orderlies or the support personnel from hospitals.

They all ought to have input. They all ought to be consulted as to where that hospital will be located. I am certain that if everyone is consulted and all the possibilities are put on the table, that those communities and the residents within those communities will come up with a very satis- factory solution. I leave it to those communities, and I leave it to NEHA to determine where that hospital will be built. * (15:10) Rural economic growth is important to our constituency.

It is important because we need to ensure that we have services for our residents, services such as health care services, education services, agricultural services and so on. It is very important. In order to have economic growth, we need to have infrastructure. I have spoken about each of the communities and the infrastructure that they require, but they all require, of course, the usual services such as water, sewer services, roads, hydro, telephone service and natural gas. I know during the spring session when we were in the Legislature, members opposite

December 3, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 155 introduced legislation which, in fact, was located in the Budget, that, in fact, increased the taxation on propane. They justified it by saying that the taxation on propane would be harmonized with the taxation on natural gas. They made light of the fact that it would only cost 12 or 13 or 14 cents extra to fill a propane tank for your barbe- cue, but that was not the point. That was not the point at all. To a great extent, our rural businesses depend on propane for heating their businesses, for using it in industry and using it in their businesses.

In fact, I was speaking to Peter Raymond at Papertown Hotel and the Manitou Lodge. They are located in Powerview and Pine Falls, and he owns both businesses. He told me that he now pays $5,000 more for propane because of that increase in taxation on propane due to the Budget being passed by the current Government–$5,000 more annually for propane because he does not have the luxury of hooking up to natural gas. There is no natural gas in Pine Falls and Powerview. So he is being penalized to the tune of $5,000 annually.

Sometimes it is easy to say that, well, you are a business; you can pass it on to your customers. That is not the case quite often in rural areas. You cannot always pass that on to your customers. You are working and you are operating your business in a population that is limited and with a limited amount of traffic on the roads to your community. You cannot always pass it on to your customer. This is the case not only with Peter Raymond in Pine Falls and Powerview, but this is also the case with all small businesses in rural Manitoba, all small businesses who depend on propane.

What we have done is we have penalized small businesses in rural Manitoba by increasing the taxation on propane. I think what we ought to do is ensure that natural gas is available to these communities, so that they have the same benefits and the same opportunity as other businesses within our cities, cities like Brandon and Portage la Prairie and Winnipeg. I believe in the education area that we need to match training with the industry needs in our province. We do not need to train people for jobs outside the province.

Every day that I come here from Beausejour going to the Legislature, I pass by Provincial Trunk Highway 15 and 12. At that intersection, Loewen Windows from Steinbach is advertising asking for skilled and unskilled labour because they cannot fill the jobs that they have, but we have an incredible untapped labour flow in Aboriginal people. Aboriginals have incredibly high unemploy- ment rates. Yet, as a province, we are not spending a great deal of money to train them for jobs. Instead, the province is looking to in- creased immigration to fill these jobs.

My challenge to the Government is to train our Aboriginal people instead to ensure that they lead productive lives through productive and meaningful jobs. More money has to go into Aboriginal training. They are unemployed to a great extent. They have incredibly high unem- ployment rates, and they are looking for those jobs. They are begging for jobs. We have an opportunity to fill jobs here in Manitoba with Aboriginal people if we increase money toward Aboriginal training and target them to jobs that are available in our province.

In the Throne Speech, the Government, in fact, said that we need increased immigration to help increase Manitoba's growth to increase our population– Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable member's time has expired. Mr. Harry Schellenberg (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure an d honour to speak to the Speech from the Throne. Before I say more, I would like to welcome the new pages to the Legislature. As a Canadian history teacher of many years, I wish you the very best, and I hope you have a great experience here.

Maybe some day some of the pages here will take their place as an MLA in this Legislature or work in som e ther capacity in this Legislature. o I would also like to wish all the MLAs that are stepping down at the next election the very est. b 3Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to speak on the Throne Speech. The Throne Speech had focussed on many issues that were important to all Manitobans, such as health care, education, the economy, public safety,

156 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 3, 2002 modernizing the floodway, revitalizing our major cities, as well as protecting our environ- ment. Our Government, as it was first elected in 1999, began a new vision, a new agenda and has worked hard for the last three years to serve all Manitobans and to listen to their concerns. Our Government has kept the commitments and election promise it made in the last election in 1999. As I meet the Rossmere constituents and people across Manitoba, there seems to be an appreciation for the good work this Government is doing.

I am proud to be part of this Government because of the progress that has been made in many areas. The Leader of the Official Oppo- sition says this Government is looking in the rearview mirror. I think, if we looked in the rearview mirror, all one would see is Tories far behind. Let me explain by using a metaphor or an example. Tommy Douglas, about 50 years ago, began public medicare in Saskatchewan, which soon spread across Canada, and today in the 21st century the Tories want to privatize medicare and place health care back in the marketplace as it was over 50 years ago. Mr.

Speaker, our movement adopted public, accessible, universal health care over 50 years ago, and the Tories are far behind. If you look in the rearview mirror, all you see is Tories far behind. Our movement not only brought in medicare but also added Home Care, Pharma- care, personal care homes and many other initiatives that Canadians appreciate in the 21st century. What programs have the Tories brought in? I really thought about that, and I really cannot think of health care programs that they brought in. Yes, I hear people across the way say that they will not privatize and so forth.

They just go to the frills that they will do. That is just the beginning and afterwards, they will allow more people to come in and soon it will be in private hands. Mr. Speaker, the Tory policies are policies of the past. They want to place heath care in the marketplace so their friends can make a profit, and all you hear is "contracting out." Those are the words of the Leader of the Official Oppo- sition (Mr. Murray). Also , you hear the words "competition" and "privatizing." They are not offering reform but the policies of the past. * (15:20) An Honourable Member: I know you want a communistic state here. Mr.

Schellenberg: I hear my friend from Pembina speaking out, but we will have a discussion with him later on. I appreciate his comments. Mr. Speaker, the years leading up to the 1990 election we had many quarrels or fights with health care workers. You know, they did fight with LPNs, with RNs, support staff, home care workers. You name it. I remember the time they wanted to privatize home care and the Home Care Coalition group came to northeast Winnipeg all you saw were hundreds of home care signs on private lawns.

The opposition to privatize was so great the Government pulled back and the Health Minister had to resign. I remember it very clearly. I hear people from across the way. Home care is one example of what they wanted to privatize. In fact, they went through quite a few Health ministers and they were not bad Health ministers. It was not the Health ministers. It was the policies of their government. Yet many of these Health ministers were out of tune with Manitobans, and people do not want policies of the past. People do not want policies of contracting out or privatizing or health care put into the marketplace.

There has been real opposition and somehow they do not see it. They do not understand it. The opposition is there from the public. It is easy to read. Usually, they pick up these little cues. Usually, they are very sensitive to these things, but when it comes to privatizing health care and other things in our society, they are not very sensitive. Contracting out or privatizing of health care would have to have the same effect on Manitobans as the sell-off of MTS. Rates have gone sky-high. Many people are paying much

December 3, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 157 higher rates than they once paid. I would like to point out two other Crown corporations that have served Manitobans very well: MPI and Manitoba Hydro. Both have very low rates, and we must do everything possible to make certain they do not go the path of MTS. Mr. Speaker, I would just like to refer to Ontario for a moment. Ontario has also had their problems with Tories trying to privatize Hydro. Anyone who has visited Ontario recently knows it now has one political issue in Ontario: Power deregulation.

I see some members opposite are looking at me, and they know that is true. The Premier of Ontario, Mr. Ernie Eves, has admitted it was a mistake and has even called off an early election. Let me tell you what I read in the November 20, 2002, Winnipeg Free Press about hydro bills in Ontario. A bill of $320 soared to $800. A bill of $100 went to $400, and another bill for $125 reached $350. Also, many families had their hydro cut off because they could not pay their bills. Community clubs were also shut down because they could not pay their bills.

The present Premier of Ontario is now re- regulating hydro and providing rebates estimated as a total of $500 million to hard-pressed consumers. In fact, the present Premier of Ontario is putting some distance between him- self and Mike Harris and many issues like health care, education, he is changing. In fact, usually when there is an election approaching, the Tories sound very much like New Democrats, and then as soon as the election is over, they go back to their old ways. We also know that Alberta faced the same hardships.

There the government had to cushion the cost of deregulation with $2 billion of gov- ernment money. You would think people would learn from their mistakes, but that is not the way it is. I would like to point out a few things that we have done in health care recently and also over the past three years. I am proud of our Govern- ment in health care. I am very proud of what the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) has done in health care. Recently, our Government an- nounced a new palliative drug Access Program which will cost $3 million and assist about one thousand Manitobans.

This program will provide prescription drugs at no cost to the patients. I would just like to give a few examples of what our Government does. The number of doctors in Manitoba has grown every year since our Government took office, reversing the flight of doctors in the 1990s. Also, almost three times as many nurses will be graduating this year than in 1999. Manitoba has more nurses per capita than Ontario, Saskatchewan, B.C. or Alberta. We have also created 500 new training spaces for health professionals, technicians, nurses, health care aides, therapists, doctors.

Manitoba has been acknowledged as a leader in making progress on hallway medicine with its across- the-board strategy for managing emergency room services and streamlining access to home care. The Health Sciences Centre will be getting state-of-the-art equipment and facilities and a $100-million redevelopment, the largest such project in Manitoba history. Over 50 health care facilities have been ex panded and modernized under our Government; 80 new ambulances distributed; 8 new CT scanners as well as new MRIs. We placed many of these outside the Perimeter at Brandon.

Those are just some of the things our Government has done in health care. The list is much longer, but I will leave it at that. I am proud of what we have accomplished in three years in health care. The challenges are great, but I realize more work has to be done, and it will be done. The Government will continue to build health care. We will work with Ottawa and other provinces to implement the recommendations of the Romanow commission. We will continue building our health care system. I would like to leav e health care and move on to another topic.

Our Government has made great progress in revitalizing the core of Winnipeg, Brandon and other places. That is recognized by many people in our community. The Neighbourhoods Alive! program has rebuilt many neighbourhood homes. As a result of this good work, homes have appreciated as much as

158 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 3, 2002 24 percent, according to reports from the Winnipeg Free Press. People are beginning to move downtown on a permanent basis. As you drive through the downtown area, you will notice urban renewal. Let me give you some examples. The new Crocus Building on Main Street is a beautiful building. The new hotel at Main and St. Mary, and that is private, that is not public, private money has built that hotel; the new waterfront drive; the True North building that is being worked on. The Red River campus in the Exchange area is a model for many cities across Canada.

It is supported by the business community, by the City and many other sectors in our community. The co-op retail store sells outdoor products at Portage and Donald, which is private. Mr. Speaker, when Hydro moves its headquarters to the downtown, that will again bring people and activities to downtown. Many of these initiatives are the result of government policies. The private sector has confidence that the downtown is being re- vitalized, and the private sector is beginning to invest in business where for years it was a real desert for any activity.

Today there is a vision for downtown, and our business community appreciates that. * (15:30) Mr. Speaker, I also point out that the city is being rebuilt because both levels of government are working together and not against each other. There is a real turnaround as far as downtown Winnipeg. Mr. Speaker, I would like to take a global perspective on what has been happening in the economy. From members opposite, we hear one story, but I would like to point out a few things that have been happening in our economy.

Let me explain and show that Manitoba has a healthy economy: 2002 economic growth is projected to be above the national average; Manitoba was one of three provinces to achieve investment growth in each of the past three years; annual job creation since 1999 has doubled the annual rate of the prior 10 years; the lowest unemployment rate in Canada; college and university enrolment is up 19 percent since 1999, but we need these skills for business; an 11% increase in apprenticeship training; the number of welfare recipients down to the lowest level in two decades; 24 000 Manitobans now paying no income tax due to three years of tax cuts; immigration to Manitoba is up 50 percent since 1999 to a high of four and a half thousand, and plans are out to increase it to 10 000, which is 1 percent of our population; property values are rising in Winnipeg, west and the North End, for the first time, the result of housing and renewal.

Mr. Speaker, our balanced budget and tax rates have also added to confidence and strength of our economy. Income taxes have been cut by 11.3 percent by the year 2003. Property taxes have been lowered by $ 150 through the increase in education property tax credit. A corporate tax cut for 2003, first cut since World War II. We began to phase out the education support levy on property, and we paid down the debt by $96 million each year. Our economy is quite healthy, and government has been very responsible in its fiscal management. Mr. Speaker, I would like to say a few words about education.

Everyone in the Legislature knows the good work we have done in education. For instance, our Government has given over $100 million new funds for infra- structure, renewal and expansion in Manitoba's universities and colleges, $60 million of bur- saries. This indicates investment we have made in education, and our belief is in good education. We believe a good education is very important for a good economy. As a teacher of many years, I am proud to be a part of this record of achievement. It is just great work. I could give you more examples, but I want to talk about building relations with people.

I think we have done that in education. I know the Leader of the Official Opposition still has problems with certain education bills that we passed. He does not appreciate some of the legislation, but what he really is saying and his colleague is saying, that they are still anti- teacher and are still at war with teachers. If you read his material, what he says, you can see that there is still this negative feeling towards certain working people.

December 3, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 159 It is still the same old Tory party that wants to keep working people in their place. By reading the alternative speech from the throne, we see the Tories are still working with policies from the past in education and health. To have a good educational system, you must have a good working relationship with people in the front lines. I could give you a little short story here, but I will maybe leave it. An Honourable Member: Well, I would not mind hearing it, Harry. Mr. Schellenberg: Well, okay, I have some- thing here.

I attended a CIP annual banquet last June at River East Collegiate. Several MLAs from the Legislature were there, trustees, super- intendents, parents, students, and the former Minister of Education was there. I felt quite at home there because I taught there for many years. It was a fine evening where students were recognized. As the evening was concluded, people stood around talking in small groups, visiting. I happened to be speaking to some teachers. They were not of my political persuasion, and they were discussing education policies and so forth.

I introduced them to the Minister of Education then, and they had a great time. They later told me that meeting the Minister of Education was the highlight of the evening. What I am trying to say is that a relationship had been built up between our Government and people in the front line. I never expected them to say this. One former teacher, whom I knew very well, came to me, and he was not of my political persuasion, and he said it is just nice to be able to talk to people from the Legislature as equals. He went on to say more things, positive things, but that is what it is about.

It is not just about giving the funds; it is about communicating, relationships, talking to others as equals. I am not saying that we will not fail at times. An Honourable Member: That never existed before? Mr. Schellenberg: The member across, it did not exist before? I think it probably did at times, but I am just saying–I am speaking about the present now–there is a good relationship. They know they made a mistake in education. I do not want to go into it because I have some friends across the way. I do not want to offend them, but I will talk to them privately.

Actually, they are pretty good people across the way. I have the problem of saying the way I see it, and I must be bit careful at times. a Mr. Speaker, I would like to place some comments on the record concerning the Kyoto accord. I will move on from education. First, I want to point out the Tory policy on Kyoto, which is a policy to delay, and when we delay, we do nothing. This is the Alberta plan; it is not a Manitoba plan. Our plan supports investment in a Canadian clean-energy grid, with lower emissions, and creates 175 person years in jobs.

We support coal and oil for the U.S., and we support low-impact hydro jobs for Canadians. Even Mulroney took a stand. One hundred countries are signed on, and 75 percent of Canadians want it, as well as our own task force. We know the effects if we do not implement the Kyoto plan, and I will not go into that because it has been mentioned in our Legislature. The Tories, in their alternate Throne Speech, have made many promises, In fact, their list is lengthy, and they have added no cost estimates to any of your promises in the document. We are still waiting for those estimates.

They keep asking us where are our estimates, but they do not give them, but if you add them up they do promise $400 million. That is not including the large infrastructure commitment to clean up Winnipeg's water and sewer system. I will not go over that whole list, because I think we all have it. I will conclude my remarks because there are other people here that want to get on the record, from both sides of the House, and address the Throne Speech. So I thank you, r. Speaker. M * (15:40) Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Well, thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to start off today by welcoming our new pages and interns to their new positions at the Manitoba Legislature. I hope they learn much and enjoy their experience here at the Manitoba Legis- ature. l I would also like to thank the members who have recently announced that they will be

160 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 3, 2002 retiring after their service at the end of this term. I would like to thank the members for Lakeside, Minnedosa, Morris, and the Minister of Labour for their dedication and commitment to repre- senting their communities in the Manitoba Legislature over the years. I would also like to thank the people of Tuxedo once again for their support and guid- ance over the last two years that I have had the opportunity to represent them. It is indeed an honour to be their spokesperson in the Manitoba Legislature.

I want to thank them wholeheartedly for their support and guidance. I also want to make mention to the recipients of the Queen's Jubilee medals that I nominated. They will be receiving these medals in the next short while. I just want to make mention to their outstanding commitments and contributions to our community. I first of all would like to men- tion Val Fraser, who has just been an out- standing volunteer in the community and in Winnipeg. Unfortunately, Mrs.

Fraser recently passed away and will be unable to accept her medal, but I just want to say that on behalf of the members in the House, I want to extend my deepest sympathies and condolences to Jack, John and Lisa and the rest of the Fraser family n their tremendous loss. o Mr. Speaker, Val Fraser was an outstanding contributor to the volunteer community in Win- nipeg. She is very deserving of this Queen's Jubilee Medal. She was most known for her commitment to the Winnipeg Art Gallery. She was the chair of the fantasy auction fundraiser gala for 10 years.

She was the president of the board of governors for two terms. She was also more recently the chair of the Starry, Starry Night fundraising gala for the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation. She played many, many other roles with the Winnipeg Art Gallery and will be sadly, sadly missed by all of those who had the opportunity to be able to work with her over the years. She also was on the board of governors of the Health Sciences Centre Research Foundation.

She was a member of the board of governors of the Mani- toba Centennial Centre Corporation, and she was a member of the members committee of the Royal Ontario Museum. She was chair of several special projects as well in the community, Mr. Speaker, and beyond just our community. For the Royal Winnipeg Ballet she again was a member of the board of governors of the volunteer committee. She was a member of the board of governors of the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra. She was the Centennial Ball co-chair and she was vice- president of the Manitoba Theatre Centre Curtain Raisers and chair of the children's theatre.

Val Fraser's commitment to the community has been absolutely outstanding. Again, she will be very sadly missed by myself and by other members who have had the opportunity to work with her over the years and many others. Mr. Speaker, there are three other recipients of the Golden Jubilee medals. I would like to just give a little bit of background on these people as well. Deb McCreanor. Deb was chosen as a volunteer of the year in the constituency of Tuxedo for 2001.

Along with caring for her family, working full tim e, she has volunteered her spare time for the past 16 years working with her community centre where she was president in 2001. She also worked for the parent-school council and numerous positions within the sport of curling both at the community and provincial levels. She has also held key positions for fundraising events, high school reunions, civic election campaigns, and, in 1999, was the transportation co-ordinator for the Pan Am Games. I want to congratulate Deb McCreanor for her outstanding commitment to the com- munity.

The next recipient, Erin Friesen, was chosen as the youth volunteer of the year in the constituency of Tuxedo for 2001. Erin has volunteered her time since 1996 at the age of 12, I might add, at West Pa rk Manor Personal Care Home, visiting and assisting residents in a variety of activities, Mr. Speaker. She also shares her volunteer time with the younger crowd by helping out at summer day camp for four- to seven-year-old children and has volun- teered for a number of years at the Teddy Bears' Picnic. Erin teaches volleyball and has organized and led tournaments at the elementary school level.

In her senior high school years, Erin has participated in numerous committees, planning

December 3, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 161 and working in many school events. I want to congratulate Erin Friesen on her outstanding commitment as a youth volunteer in our com- munity. The other recipient of the Queen's Jubilee Medal, Mr. Speaker, is Margaret Koniuk. Margaret has been an active grassroots UNICEF volunteer for over 10 years. She has served as treasurer for the Manitoba committee, Manitoba chairperson, national president fundraising, and national vice-president administration. She was elected president of UNICEF Canada in June 2000.

Over the last decade, she has put in countless efforts for UNI CEF doing everything from sleeping out on Main Street in 30 degree weather to meeting with political leaders in the Ukraine, from chairing a fundraiser with Roger Moore, to volunteering at Boo at the Zoo in our community. She has appeared on radio and television and at numerous speaking engage- ments. In 2000, she inspected UNICEF projects in Kiev which supported street children, AIDS patients and the handicapped. She has repre- sented Canada internationally at conferences in New York, Turkey and Finland.

She has also lent her time to the Manitoba Council for International Cooperation, Beyond Borders, St. Ignatius Church and École Tuxedo Park. Margaret has been recognized by CGA Mani- toba with their Sharing of Expertise awards. In private life, she runs her own financial planning business in Winnipeg. I just want to also extend my sincere congratulations to Margaret Koniuk for receiving the Queen's Jubilee Medal, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to now go into a few issues that are of concern to members of the Tuxedo community, some issues that have come up over the course of the last number of years.

I, first of all, would like to touch on the issue of the Kenaston Underpass. Mr. Speaker, the mayor recently agreed and made it part of his election platform to ensure that this underpass would be built. This Government, our provincial government, has been opposed to this initiative, quite frankly, for purely political reasons. I hope that this Premier (Mr. Doer) now sees the light and joins with the mayor, with representatives on this side of the House and with people of southwest Winnipeg and beyond who are in support of this much, much needed project.

I strongly encourage that this Government work with the mayor and work with the people in the community to ensure that this underpass is built and built as soon as possible. Another issue concerning the residents of part of Tuxedo is the decommissioning of the Oak Point rail line. This rail line extends from Taylor to Academy Road along Centennial Street. This land has been used as a walkway for seniors and young family for some time now, as it has not been in operation for a number of years. These members of our community have grown accustomed, Mr.

Speaker, to having the use of this land as green space and would like to be able to continue to use this land for their walks. I hope and encourage the civic gov- ernment to maintain this land as green space and to ensure it remains accessible to the citizens of this area who use this land as a walkway. So I hope that they will continue to be able to do that. * (15:50) Another issue of concern to people in the Tuxedo area, Mr. Speaker, is what will happen with the land where the Kapyong Barracks is currently situated.

I have been informed that the earliest that these troops will be moving from the space along Kenaston to their new home in Shilo will be in the summer of 2004. While we were happy that these troops, the plan is to keep them in Manitoba, we are very sorry that they will be leaving our community. The Kapyong Barracks is home to the 2PPCLI, which I mentioned earlier in a private member's statement, Mr. Speaker, that these soldiers recently received the Governor Gen- eral's commendation for their courage and skill they displayed in a battle at Medak, Croatia, in 1993.

I again want to congratulate the 2PPCLI for their outstanding commitment to the com- munity and to their country. The troops will sadly be missed, but we in Tuxedo will continue to salute these troops for the contribution they make to the safety of our communities and to the integrity of our country. Many people continue to ask the question: What will become of the land? I have been told

162 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 3, 2002 by representatives of the federal government that the people in Tuxedo and indeed all interested parties in the lands will have ample opportunity to participate in a public debate about the issue. I look forward to these debates and to ensuring that the voices and the people of Tuxedo com- munity are heard on this issue. We will work hard alongside the people of Tuxedo to ensure that any development that takes place on this land maintains the vibrancy, beauty and out- standing commitment to our community. I would like to now, Mr.

Speaker, go into some comments, some general comments on the Speech from the Throne. As our Leader said, and I will quote our Leader: If this is an election Throne Speech, then it is weak. I will put our Throne Speech up against the Premier's (Mr. Doer) any day. Mr. Speaker, I really found in listening to this Throne Speech that it was a real sleeper. I question at this point in time if really our Premier was perhaps asleep at the wheel and some of his colleagues on the other side of the House.

Imagine after only three years of govern- ment, and this Government has truly run out of new ideas in how to govern our province. Perhaps this Premier should take some direction from our Leader who demonstrated that he and members on this side of the House are ready to govern. He introduced his vision in the recent alternative speech from the throne and some details on what we would like to do and implement if elected to government. I suggest that the Premier and other members opposite can learn from his visions and ideas for our province. Mr.

Speaker, there are a couple of stories that I would like to tell, and first off I find it just absolutely unbelievable at how many people are continuing to leave our province on a regular basis. This Government has talked about its immigration policy to increase the immigration here, but they have said absolutely nothing about keeping the people that we have here, retaining our people here in Manitoba, and I find that absolutely deplorable. I want to tell a story of one of my best and closest friends who was recently headhunted by a company in Vancouver.

They came in and they absolutely made her an offer that she could not refuse, and it did not take much really. But what I want to say is that she is now gone. She has left our province. She was a very strong contributor to our volunteer community. She is a young person, 31 years old, that will be sadly missed by myself, by my family, by many, many volun- teers in the community who she has worked with over the years, and I am sorry to see such a strong and vibrant person in our community has to leave this province in order to seek oppor- tunities elsewhere, in this particular case, Mr.

Speaker, in British Columbia. By moving to British Columbia before the end of this year, she actually has the opportunity to file her income tax return in B.C., and by doing that, she will save $8,000 alone over what she would have made here. I tell you, Mr. Speaker, $8,000, I think we can all think of the wonderful things that we could do to spend that $8,000 on in our community to make our community a better place to live and raise our family and make it more competitive. I mean, when I think about $8,000, I think of things in terms of diapers and what this does in terms of putting food on my family's table.

There are so many things that can be done, that we can spend in our community in order to help and nourish our families and to raise our families. I would have liked to have seen that my friend would have had the opportunity to spend that $8,000 here in Manitoba as opposed to out in British Columbia. I think of the dollars that could be spent on even daycare an d some of the things that affect our daily lives. I just find it so sad that we have to see her leave to another province. There are so many other stories I can tell of similar people who have left our province.

The numbers are growing, and I find it very, very concerning that this provincial government has done nothing to retain our youngest and brightest here in our province. I ask you, Mr. Speaker, how many more young people does our province have to lose before this Government recognizes the serious- ness of this issue? I am tired of losing my friends to other provinces and indeed to the U.S. and to other countries where opportunities and hope for the future is there for them. We should have hope and opportunity for our young people here in Manitoba. It is for this Government I

December 3, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 163 encourage them to take immediate action to ensure that we keep our young people here in Manitoba, contributing to the vibrancy of our province and making it competitive on a national scale. I encourage this Government to do the right thing, to make us more competitive, to keep our young people here in Manitoba. I also would like to talk a little bit about an

article that we recently saw in the Winnipeg Free Press, Mr. Speaker, entitled, More Tax Cuts: Not High on NDP Agenda, the Premier Says. Mr. Speaker, I have to say that I am deeply offended by the comments that the Premier of this Province made by who I believe are three outstanding representatives of the business com- munity in Manitoba. They represent hundreds of thousands of businesses here in our province, and to be treated with such disrespect, I think, is absolutely deplorable.

Shelly Wiseman, Graham Starmer and Victor Vrsnik are, and in the case of Victor was–because I would like to point out the fact that Victor Vrsnik has actually left Manitoba to seek opportunity elsewhere, which I find is extremely unfortunate, and he should have had the opportunity to stay here and work and live and raise his family here in Manitoba, but I find it absolutely deplorable that this Premier would say such awful things about these incredibly intelligent and wonderful members of out- standing leaders in our community. Mr.

Speaker, I just want to quote what the Premier said from this Free Press article: Shelly Wiseman of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business has never run a business in her life, the Premier said. She is a spokes- woman. What does she own? The hallways of the Legislature are full of people who will never own their own companies. What company did the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce president, Graham Starmer, ever run? Victor Vrsnik of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, what has he ever done? He represents a thousand people, a thousand people, for heaven's sake. This is the Premier (Mr.

Doer) of our province, Mr. Speaker, talking about th ese people in such a disrespectful manner. I think it is just absolutely nbelievable. u * (16:00) I would like to read for the House today a letter, an e-mail, that I received from Victor Vrsnik this morning. This is a letter addressed– [interjection] Oh, well, I only have one copy, actually, so we can table it. Mr. Speaker, it says: Dear Premier, when the Premier of Manitoba launches an unprovoked attack on the Canadian Taxpayers Federation and other well- regarded organizations in Manitoba, he should at least get his facts straight.

Contrary to what you say in the Winnipeg Free Press

article entitled "More Tax Cuts Not High on NDP Agenda," the Premier says, December 2, 2002, the CTF is supported by not 1000, but actually 4000 members in Manitoba alone, and our supporter base is growing. Personal attacks on the credibility of the directors of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the Mani- toba Chamber of Commerce and the Canadian Taxpayers Federation is unbecoming of the Premier and demonstrates disrespect also for the Manitoba individuals and businesses who support these groups.

It is remarkable that you would single out for a tongue lashing organi- zations that refuse government funding but then have nothing to say for any of the groups that line up outside the Premier's office for a hand- out. It was recently reported that your Govern- ment rewarded the left-wing Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives by buying a 15 000 subscription and a $250 government member- ship. Apparently, the Prem ier's respect is earned by groups calling for more handouts and the higher taxes that support them. The Canadian Taxpayers Federation, however, cannot be bought.

We pride ourselves on a policy inde- pendence that can only be maintained by refus- ing government funding. If the Premier's wrath is reserved for groups calling for an end to handouts and fewer taxes, then Canadian Tax- payers Federation knows it is doing a good job. I just wanted to put that on the record, as that came across my desk this morning, Mr. Speaker. I just think that the treatment of these individuals is absolutely disturbing and deplor- able, and I hope this type of action, the Premier should apologize for his comments. I would

164 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 3, 2002 hope that he would apologize to these individu- als personally and indeed to all Manitobans and all the people they represent. I would like to now go on to talking a little bit about the Throne Speech and maybe making some general comments on what really was not here, Mr. Speaker. t Mr. Speaker, let us talk about the economy. There is absolutely no commitment for further tax relief for Manitobans. Middle-income Manitobans remain the highest taxed west of Québec. People continue to leave our province for other provinces, as I already talked about earlier.

Let us look at some of the Government's own numbers. What we have found in the most recent report that came out, entitled Manitoba's Recent Economic Performance, the net provin- cial migration, it says: In the first two quarters of 2002, interprovincial net out-migration was 1484 persons. The majority of Manitoba's net migration loss was to Albert

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-4-05
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 4th hansardpdf 05.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e74c367a3900a194f924bca80c790958a5cdde33

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