• • • • • • • • • • • \'01.3 PRF.LIJ-!INATlY tn-<EDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE 0'~<" ASSENBLY FOR TP.E PERIOD: 10:QO a.m. - 1:00 p.m. Ft.InAY , Jtn-lE <J , 19 7 8

• June 9, 1978 Tape :<o. !;189 :<:·! - 1 'L':1e House met at 10::10 A.:.: • • :·lr. Speaker in the Chair. ~~- SPEAKER: Order, please! STATE}'ENTS BY HINISTERS: HR • SPEA .. XER: The hon. ~!inister of Justice. • :!R. ·SIC~-!AN: !!r. Speaker, ! am pleased to announce that Na~istrate Clement P. Scott, •.vho is presently' a :::ember of. the Provincial Court i3ench in St. John's, has been promoted under the provisions of the Provincial Court Act, to • the position of Hagistrate in Char3~ of the St·.

Joh:1. 's CriJ:dnal • Court • Magistrate Scott ~1as appointee to the Bench on :!ay 1st., 1966 and he has served as a magistrate • i:1. St. Anthony, Clarenville, and St. John's. He graduated from Jalhousie La~" Scl•ool 1d.th a degree of LL.Il. 1:1. :.;ay of 1972. There vrill l:>e four ma~iscr;;.te~ attaci1ed to ti1e Provincial Court in St. John's, namely • Chief :-iagistrate Cyril J. Goodyear, who also has responsibility for t!1e magisterial service t!1roughout tl:e Provir.cc, :.!agistr<>.te Clement P.

Scott, ;.:agi!'trate John Tral1ey, •.vho is being transferred . from Corner i3rocik, and :lagistrate Donald Luther. In addition . •·. e :·!agistrate Charles L. Roberts is responsible for the Family Court in St. John's, and :.fagistrate Jac;;; A. W,lite for the Traffic Court. I lmow the efficiency of the St. John's Grimi<1al Court 1dll continue to improve under ~he • lea:lcr:;:•ip of llagistrate Clement P. Scott. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of tile Opposition. ;.JR. W. ROWE : :-lr.

Speaker, just a very brief tmrd to t:elcome the ne~;s =nounced by t;1e :[inister of Justice tilis • c1agistrate Scott or Judge Scott - t·1!1at is t!1e - I itave 'talked to a dozen differer.t magistrates, Hr. Speaker, antl 3cne cf t:1e.m • 9634 •

I • • • • -w' • • • • • Jw~e 9, Bi8 Tape ~o. 4189 NH - 2 '.Jant to ue called judge and some of them ~~ant to be called magistrate, but the correct uesi<?nation is still magistrate. i·!R. HICKl-!AN : The han. member never even (inaudible). made last year . :·:R. ~lEARY: '~hen the Hinister of Justice becomes a magistrate then they Hill change it to judge. He w:fll think he is a judge. HR. HI ClQ.fAN : In ans,~ering the request that they should be called judges he said, judge is so confusing because last t1i:;;ht I ;1eard it in a fight with :·loha=ed Ali, Judge So and So atvarded so many points.

But everyone knmvs a ,magistrate is a presiding judge .. :-'.R. NEARY: Get yourself appointed magistrate and then :.'e will change the title to judge, that is the closest you tvill get to becoming a judge. <:!R. HI ~.AN: But I am in line for Justice of the Peace. :1R. H. ROHE: A J.P. Hr.· Speal~r, I do Helcorne the ne,vs, I lmm~ :·lagis trate Scott personally, not exceedingly well but personally, a::.d I have altvays found him to be a perfect gentleman and a good magistrate. So I '.velcomc tl1en the neHs that he is going in charge of this division in St. John's.

I believe Hagistrate Scott, if the l1inister of Justice can bear me out on this, :!agist rate Scott tvas one of t;le first I believe to take advar.tage of this nev programme brought in by the much maligned previous adtninistratior.. As a matter of fact vlhen the !-!i:-.iste:r of Justice was then t:Ce l·linister of Justice of that administration, if I remember correctly - :m. HICKHAN: It died in my absence and I revived it again . It is true. ~·:R. NEARY: .&~•d notv you have cre~ted a !'!Cns:er. Hhat about action~ You have cre~ted a monster now . 9635

• June 9, 1978 Tape No. 4189 :·ill - 3 :!R. ,, . ROHE: It must be good:, Sir, to kn01v that • t!'le ~:ymmetry of the :>lannetary systems depends entirely O!l your own existence, and your o~rn ability. 1·T-. DOODY : It is ~ comforting feeling. ~. W. ROV7E: Hr.

Speaker, M~gistrate Clement Scott • was one of the first to take:advantage of that very liberal progr31!111le of the former administration, ~•hich allowed :c.agistrates sitting on the Bench, career Magistrates, to get law degrees so that they could go back and be a magistrate again as a lawyer • vith a la1; degree, and of course that much more equipped to • deal IVith some of the thorny legal problems 'vhich magistrates have to deal with on a day to day basis. Sir, 1ve wel:come this news and I 1vish • Magistrate Scott all the .best in his ne~1 job. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Leader of the Opposition. ).!It. 1~. R0\·7E : Tite question is directed • to the hon. l1inister of Hanpower, }!r. Speaker, .concerning the same subject as I asked him yesterday. He was zoing to undertake to give us today I believe, a statement as to the points of difference, wh:1t are the points of variance between the ;,argaining •• e unit, the Lab and :;-ray technicians , and t:1e Treaus ry Board r.cr;otiators1 HR. S?EAKER: The hon. ~Unister of Labour and :ianpmver. l·IP.. ROuss;::au: First of all, i·ir. Speaker, if I may, • uecause when the question Has asked yesterday I 1:as not aHare of ~he situation.

I 1-1ould like to say that iu the Departnent of Labour's feeling that it Has very - it 1vas not ir. the best interest of the collective bargaining process that talks did not continue tvi th t:·," • :oos;:>ital support staff. Those talks should not have "uroken off because people did not legitimately cross the picket line, ti1e picl~et line having been set up ~fter the exi1austion of a collective bargaining ?rocess. I <iiJ not knov7 ti1e situatio;-, when I Has asked • 9636 •

• • • • • • ·- • • • • June 9, 197S Tape ~:o. 4189 ~3.. ROUSSEl.U: the questions yesterday. However, I did check because I have some very strong feelings on it, 'vith t:iy colleagues, the political'aspect of Treasury :Soard and certainly the decision to break off the talks were not made I ~ith their knowledge or consent • And the other point, the actu~l question that "as asked by the hon. Leader, I mer.tioncd tliat a:!. ther today or on Honday, there is a meeting taking place· this morning at ten o'clock between <1r. Locking, the General :·lanager of NAPE, and my Deputy 11inister Ted Blancha~d . 9637

• • • • • •• • • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4190 EC - 1 }JR. ROUSSEAU: I said after that meeting I might be in a position to do so - if it were yesterday I would do it today and if it were today I would not be able to do it until Monday. MR. W. N. ROWE: HR. SPEAKER: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary, the bon. the Leader of the Opposition. 11R. W. N. ROWE: Sir, it would give you an uneasy feeling what the minister just mentioned to us.

What happens - authority is delegated to the Treasury Board negotiators, but very difficult decisions having tremendous ramifications appear to be taken by people without any reference to the head of the Treasury Board, the minister or the deputy minister-or the secretary in the case of Treasury Board and so on. Who makes a decision that talks are going to be broken off which may have the effect, Mr. Speaker, of throwing the health services in this Province in complete jeopardy?

Who makes that kind of a ciecision without referring to the political heads of the government, the government, itself or the minister in charge of Treasury Board? I mean, do they have the authority to do that? If so, I for one would like to know, and if they do not have the authority, what caused the breakdown in the chain of command in this particular case? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. HR. ROUSSEAU: The only way I can answer that question is to reiterate what I said. As the Department of Labour I think that question would have to be directed to the President of Treasury 3oard.

I presume it is a collective bargaining group. I think something that we have a problem with is the Department of Labour. You know, when you are dealing with government employees, always the government employees seem to feel that the Department of Labour is a part of government and therefore is not really an unbiased 9638

• • • • • • •• • • • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4190 EC - 2 MR. ROUSSEAU: conciliation or mediation process. We would like to dispel that. We try to do that in~ofar as possible in the department, and ·we would like to be as objective and as neutral as possible in either the private or the public sector in providing whatever services we have in the departmen~. With regard to the specific question, I think it would have to be directed to the president of Treasury noard. All we know is that the decision was indeed made and I think it was rather a hasty decision as far as the Department of Labour was concerned . MR. W. N.

ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: of the Opposition. HR • IV. N. ROlvE : Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary, the han. the .Leader I disagree with the minister, Mr. Speaker. The Department of Labour, as the minister says, has to remain above the battle, has to give the· impression, even though it is difficult, because they are part of the government, when dealing with public employe~s that they are not siding with Treasury Board negotiators and so on.

I think it would be the idea situation - and I put this as a question to the minister, for the minister.to be able to come in here and give us an objective statement as to what happened in this particular case, and not leave it to the minister in charge of Treasury Board, the President of Treasury Board, to come in here an~ give his side of the story . I think it would be a good thing if the Minister of Labour (Mr. Rousseau) showed his independence in this respect, Mr.

Speaker -we are not talking politically or anything, we are talking in terms of what is in the best interests of the collective bargaining procedure - if he told us what happened in this particular case, where the breakdown was, where the decision making capacity lay, who made the decisions - I do not mean the names of the individuals - what group or individual or 9639

• • • • • • • • • • • June 9, 1973 Tape 4190 EC - 3 .MR. W. N. ROWE: person in a position made a decision to break off these negoti~tions which could have had and may still hive very, very seriou~ implications and ramifications for the health services in Newfoundland-and Labrador. HR. SPEAKER: ~USSEAU: The hon. minister • I have talked, like I say, to my colleagues, the political members of Treasury Board. They were not aware of it.

As soon as the President of Treasury Board returns it would certainlT be my intention to bring this to his attention, just find out where it is or who made the decision and why the decision was made, because as the hon. member says, the department has to appear at least to b• above it. And this ~ornin~ what I have said about Treasury Board is the same as I would say about a private company or vice versa. And I think that is as objective as I can be at the point until I find ou~ from the President of Treasury Board on his return just where this .-decision li'as taken and why it was taken. MR. W. N. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, would the miniSter • undertake to give a statement to the House, I would say, Monday or Tuesday or a~ the earliest opportunity? This is now reaching serious proportions. We have a picket line outside this building now which is the right and duty, I would say, of the group involved; and we had a chat with them this morning coming in. I mean, it is now sta~ting to -not reach the explosive level perhaps, but it is certainly starting to reach serious proportions. :·!R. NEARY: The pot is boiling. HR. W. N. RO\{E: The pot is boiling, as my colleague says.

And the hon. minister needs, I believe, Sir - I ask this by way of a question- to-make himself more familiar with what is going on here and to keep a very close eye on what is going on, not only with regarci to the negotiations 9640

' • • • • • •• • • • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4190 EC - 4 MR. W. N. ROWE: themselves between the bargaining unit and the negotiators, but how the ~overnment is looking at this and what the government is doing and the political decisions that are going to be made. Because the people of this Province, Mr.

Speaker - and I would ask the minister to comment on this - Would he not agree that this could be one of the most seriou~ strikes to hit Newfoundland this year if this becomes a full-fledged strike with people refusing to cross .the picket lines and so on in other sectors of the public service as well1 I mean, we have here the makings, would he not agree, of a very serious situation? MR. SPEAKER: The .hon. minister. . . 9641

• • • • • • • •• e • • • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4191 (Morning) PK - 1 Mr. Rousseau: every strike I guess is serious. This is a serious strike because it involves of course the hospital .situation undobtedly. And as I said yesterday, I was going to say something following the meetings.

You know, it is very obvious what I am trying to squirt around, you know, ,when both sides are not at the bargaining table obviously we have to make penetrations into each group be it Treasury Board and/or a Crown agency, and the public sector or the private sector, an attempt to extricate from.either side whatever concessions are there in order to find whether we can get them back to 'the table .for an agreement.

We are in the process of doing that now • As I said yesterday we· talked to or the officials in the department are talking to management on the one side, and this morning they will be talking tp the genera 1 manager of NAPE and we wi 11 continue ta 1 king back and forth until we can find some common ground, because somewhere down the line obviously the strike i's going to be settled we would hope by talking to both sides continuously which we will do, that we will find some common resolve to it. MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER: MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary. The hon. member for Terra Nova.

Yes, Mr~ Speaker, I .would like to ask the minister a couple of supplementaries on this rather important matter. The minister did not answer satisfactorily the question put to him by the Opposition Leader, he was thinking about a question yesterday and consequently did not answer either very well. Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister can clarify the situation that happened yesterday at Burin which caused or gave rise to the NAPE General Manager say that the.government was guilty of unfair labour practices, and that the labour relations with the government was in a state of chaos.

Can the minister tell us precisely what happened? And how it effects both groups? Because there seems to be some misunderstanding here. My understanding is that the hospital support workers crossed the picket line, and then the government broke off negotiating·with the x-ray and l~b technicians. Could the minister tell precisely ~1hat happened and which group it is 9642

• • • • • • •• • • • • June 9, 1978 Mr. Lush: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROUSSEAU: Tape 4191 (Morning) affecting or whether it is effecting both groups? The han. Minister of Manpower and Labour. To the best of.my ability with regard to the information the x-ray and lab technicians set up picket lines at various poi~ts across the Province in the past few days, one of PK - 2 the places that picket lines were set up yesterday, legitimately so after the exhaustion·of the collecting bargaining process was the hospital at Burin.

Eight or nine of the hospital support staff· workers did not cross the picket 1 i nes, would not cross the. picket line. Obviously they are saying, unit, NAPE, and that they felt that it was their r_ight not to cross the picket 1 ine. And as a result of this incident in Burin there was a meeting set up yesterday, I think, about 11:30 yesterday morning, as far as I understand between the two parties in another set of negotiations, support staff negotiations .

And because of the incident in Burin, as I understand it, because· eight or nine people did not cross the picket line the meetings were called off, and the reason negotiations were calle~ off- AN HON. MEMBER: With whom? MR. ROUSSEAU: · Between Treasury Board and the Hospital Association on the one side, and NAPE I presume, I do not think it was CUPE, I think, it is NAPE who represent the hospital support workers. And the reason given was because they had not crossed that picket line and until they went back to work there would be no further meetings. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: ·A supplementary, the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: The han. Leader of the Opposition,as I say raised the question, but the minister did not answer it, and I will see if I can clarify the situation. The han. Leader of the Opposition asked ~1hat were the points of variance between the x-ray .• lab technicians and the government. To clarify this my understanding is that one of the points of difference have got to do with the scale, there is a scale of pay or steps, one to six. And they are saying there is no ~lay you can get.to number six, you stay on number one . 9643

• • • • • • •• • • • • June 9, i978 Tape 4191 (Morning) Mr. Lush: The other thing has to do ~ith receiving equal pay. That in certain -hospitals apparently, if the-smaller hospital that the workers·do not get the same pay as working in a larger hospital. So they have been saying it is equal pay for equal work. So can the minister clarify just precisely what are the points of variance in this dispute? MR. NOLAN: Standby pay. MR. SPEAKER: The h·on. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. ROUSSEAU: I mentioned them yesterday as a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, to the Leader of the Opposition.

In effect, what the hon. member says is correct. I said that the service credits .which PK -3 is really the step system as the teachers have it or so on, that there are a·certain number of steps,and, you know, - MR; LUSH: Only one that you. can get to. HR. ROUSSEAU: ,Yes, but they are not given by progression, year to year by experience or qualifications,- as I understand it. That was· the one issue . The other one was ca 11. ed back or standby where x-ray and lab technicians, as I understand it, you know, I am getting this secondhand from my people, so my accuracy has to depend on their accuracy. That 9644

• • • • • • ·- • • • • Jw1e 9, l9iS Tape :~o. 4192 :·i1·i - 1 :~.. ROUSSEAU: i:1 snall hospitals of four or less of the x-ray ar.d lab units they get $650 a year for stand by or call back. In larger hospitals they get I think it is $5 a shift for a stand by or for call back, The union does not think ther~ is enough on the tabla in these tHo issues and Treasury Board and the Hospital Association ~1l1en they broke off t•ere not prepared to go any further.

Ar.d as I said, obviously what the ::lepartment of Labour's job is no11 to do is to talk to both side and attempt to get some concessions, and it does not have to be 50-SO. It may be 90-10. It may be 100-0, and it may be 50-50. I do not kno1o7 Hhat it is· going to be. Some concessions so that \ve feel it would be useful to get both sides back to the table in the hope of getting a resolve to the dispute. Obviously tve are not going to c~ll both sides back to the tai:-le \lntil He feel there is something there for. them to give and take '.nth.

Other.?ise they would only sit down and say, "He are not going to :nove. ~1e are not going to move," and then "Good-By". You do not set up a meeting just for the sake of meetings. When·we think that there is some common grour.d there '::hat we can explore either individue.lly . with the parties or Hith both parties we !-Jill do that. ;m. SPEAKER: The hen. member for LaPoile, follouing by the hen. gentleman for St. John's Hest. !·lr.. NEARY: A couple of questions for Public ~../arks and Servic~·s, Sir, 1:1 connection 1-lith the rental of office ;;pace for the Public Service.

Hould the minister tell the House if there are any pressing problems in connection with the rental of office space, and if so identif:~ ti1e problE.'llS anci infom the House ti'hat the ninister is doinE .J.])out titese problems? ~!R. SPEAKER: Ti1e :1on. 1-!inis tcr of Public Works. 9645

• • • • • • •• • • • • Ju."'le 9, 1978 Tape :·!o. 4!.9 5 ~::0! - 2 ~!R. DOODY: ~!r. Speaker, there is no problem ~dth renting office space for the Public Service or for govenment. I think there is plenty of space available to ·rent. l<-'lat we are doing is identifying the various departments and agencies who are most desperately in need of space. Once that process has been clearly and completely finished then 'government 1vill decide on •<hich course of action it should take in fulfilling the legitimate needs of the various agencies and departments of government. c·tR. SPEAKER: '!R. NEARY: A supplementary. Hr.

Speaker, Hould the minister indicate, Sir, to the House if there is any foundation to the ~eports·that are making the rounds of the city of St. John's that Ne,.foundlar.d Hydro is presently negotiating for the purchuse, or ha'le concluded negotiations for the purchase of the Pi1ilip Building over i1ere on Philip Place? :.1:::' •• 5:?:.\..l{ER: T:1e r.on. ~:inister of Public Forks. :·:R. DGODY: Hy uncierstanding, i<r. SpP.aker, is that :'ieKfou.t1dland Hydro :1as been carrying on uiscussions ;;ith the o;mers of that building H:i:th an intention obviously to purchase it.

It is not a Public VJorks functiont it is .:. Hydro function. I-!ow far ~he di,;cussions lla•;e progressed, i£ at· all, if a meeting of the minds of a coTTUUon denominator !1as beea achieved bet;;een tl~ose t1•o parties is really something ~hat I a;r. not familiar with. As for the foundation of the ru:"our:;, ti1ere are stories that are going around St. Joim's to bat effect. I car.no.t obviously co;;;nent on that. I C:o not l:."'lo~·l ;Jho originates the rumours or stories.

I can say that :-!y<.!ro a::1d the o~mers of Philip Place have bee:1 or ara presently discussing the possibility of the purchase of that builciing • :2. SPEAKE F.: A supplementary . 9646

June 9, 1973 Tape ~;o. 4195 ::n. NEAaY: Would t!"le minister indicate ~·rhat • ;;ill happen to the 'L!pa::.-t:llents of government that are in thai: builcing? Like I think the Eoard of Cot:IITlissioners of Public Utilities are in that building, and Industrial Development, and a number of other branches, bits and pieces of departments • of government in that building. Wl:at ~;ill ;mppen if NewfounC:land }oydro buys the building1 liill they still continue to rent sr>ace to the government? Will they kid~ these people out and Hhere will they go?

And what is going to happen to the • Workmen's Compensation Building when it is complete? \-Tho 1-rill • \ . ~e occupying t~at building apart from the '-'orkme:~.' s Cot!pensation Board? :1R. SPEAKER:. The hon. !1inister of Public Horks. • HR. DOODY: Tne hon. oember raises a nunber of qiiestinns Hhich are being addresseci by the Property Hanagement Division of the Department of Public 1-1orks at t:1e p::.-esent time.

Obviously if H:,dro' are successful in acquiring that property on •• their t-=:cr.s arid conditions '"hich are acceptable then they ~·,ill consolidate their o~m operations •.;hich are nmv sc:1ttered around various parts of the ci.ty. I believe they are in at least t~ree buildings, maybe more. That, as the hou. nemb~:r suggests, •• ~-7111 eive rise to a problem t.;ith • • 9647 •

• • • • • •• • • • June 9,1978 Tape ~o. l<l93 AH-1 ~!'R. DOODY: space for the Department of Industrial Development with the Public l!tili ties Board so that uill have to be taken into consideration lJhen· the total requirements of government are being considered. Hhether government goes. to tender, public tender for all or part of the space requiremants tdll be determined in the very near future.I think that that may very well be the course of action that government will ta!~e hOl•7ever what ever course of action is decided on the Rouse will be kept informed and that is about all I can say for DOH. ~'R.

NEAP.Y: :-'1'.. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, Sir. A final supplementary. ~lEARY: ~fr. Speaker, to make a final supplementary I have to include ~<o or three questions in my final supplementary. Number one, what is happening now with regard to Atlantic Place? ,\re there any negotiations going on there? Hhat about the select committee or-the special committee of the House that the Premier has been promising members for the last three years? That a special coamittee or a select committee of the House would be set up to look at this '"hole matter of the rental of office space to house the public service.

Is this going to go ahead before any major decisions are made in connection with office space before the government decides to rent space down at Atlantic Place? Put up a nel> builcing, make an extension to Confederation Building, move the ~ouse of Assembly over to the old Colonial Building. Before any major decisions are made what I am asking the minister, Hill the government agree, can the minster tell us ,,,hether the Premier now is in a position to set up this special committee and take a look at the office space problem before any major decisions are made by the minister or his department? tm.

SPEAKER: The hon. minister. VR. DOODY: l:r. Speaker, the first part of the question is what is the present situation regarding Atlantic Place? From government's point of view "'e have not reached any conclusions with Atlantic Place .:.;e have 1<ac discussions with them but l•'e have not reached a point 1-1here 9648

• • • • • • •.. · ·- • • • • June ~.1~78 Tape No. 4193 AH-2 ;1' .. DC'Ot'Y; we feel that we·can rent a sizable chunk of space from Atlantic Place at a price that is acceptable or reasonable to government and so the Atlantic Place people have been informed of this at this particular point. That does not necessarily exclude Atlantic Place or space in Atlantic l'l"ace from the future plans of government.

I say at this particular point we are that impass • Witi1 regard to the Select Committee of the House and whether or not the Premier is in· a position to appoint such a committee I really have no idea· at this point of what the Premier's plans ar·e •lith regard to that particular committee. It has been suggested that the committee would be set up to study the space requirements of government before any major decisions are made. I would think that that would include the possibilities of erecting a new building,of a long-term lease,of a capital purchase of a building or of a leaseback arrangement of a building .

I think that that is the sort of thing that the Select Committee when and if it is appointed would be considering and that would be what I would consider in the nature of a major decision. In the meantime there are short-term space problems ~~hich can probably be resolved on a short-term lease basis while these longer term issues are being looked at and examined. I would suggest that that ·is probably the solution .or probably the route that '~e will follm~. Obviously I cannot answer for the Premier as to when the Select Committee of the House >;ill be established.

It is not my prerogative. nor >.;ould I presume to take that responsibility~ The Premier has made such a comment, I think he said something to the effect that that could very well be the correct course to follow before any major decisions are made. ~·lhat I am saying is that while these various courses of action are being decided upon and \Yhy these lo:1g-term solutions are being sought the immediate problems are still >.;ith us r.~ar.y of Hhich ,,•ere surfaced by the hen. member for LaPoile (l~r.

Neary) earlier this morning Hhen he discu~sed the possibility of a displacement of office people from Prince Philip Place. These things have got to be handled very quickly and as I said the House will be informed of the short-term 9649

• • • • • . , ~ • • • • • June 9,1~78 Tape ~lo. 4193 i\.P.-3 solutions and if the long-term solutions are arrived at then certainly the House will also be informed of that, ~'.r. Speaker: 9650 •

• • • • • • • ~. • • • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4194 EC - 1 :1R. SPEAKER: r"will recognize the han. gentleman for St. John's West, followed by the han . gentleman for Fogo. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing.

In view of the minister 1s indiscretion in prematurely designating the Chairman of the Regional Council under legislation not ye% approved by this H~use, and in view of the mini"ster's insistence that the books not be subject to.review by the Auditor General, and in view of·the mounting opposition throughout the region to this Bill 50 and the various provisions, is the minister'now prepared to withdraw this bill to have its provisions studied thoroughly during the Summer recess and perhaps having achieved some measure of cons~nsus to reintroduce a :odified bill possibly in the Fall session of this Legislature?

MR. SPEAKER: Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: The han. the Minister of Municipal Mr. Chairman, I do not know what indiscretion the han. member for St. John's·west is referring to. The Chairman of Metro has been made the permanent Chairman of Metro. If an~ when the Regional Council legislation is passed in this House, I have indicated that the new Chairman of the Regional Council would be Mr. John R. O'De~; if and when - I have never said in this House or in any other place that Mr. O'Dea is the Chairman of the Regional Council. I said that if and when it is passed by th~ House of Assembly, he would be the chairman.

He is the Chairman of Metro Board, the permanent Chairman of Metro Board, until such time as the Regional Council comes into play. With respect to the Auditor General, if the ho~. the member for St. John's West would read the 9651.

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4194 EC - 2 MR. DINN: Local Government Act, rea~·the City of St. John's Act, the Auditor General audits the accounts of municipalities - AN HON. MEMBER: Only if so designated. HR. DiiiN: -yes, if designated. And where, in a case where he is too busy and he doe~ not seem to be able to do ~11 the municipalities right now, an auditor can be set up by the Department of Municipal Affairs to go in and audit the accounts of the municipality, any municipality in Newfoundland, ind the Regional Council is no exception . HR. WHITE: MR. SPEAKER: for Lewisporte • HR. WHITE: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. the member Mr. Speaker, I w.ould like t.o ask the minister to answer the question that was posed by the member for St. John's West (Dr. Kitchen) with respect to whether or not the legislation will be forced through during the present sitting of the House; or whether in view of all the opposition to the bill, he is going to wait for two or three months in the Sumcer for sort of a reconsideration period. You know, for example, the City of St.

John's is very concerned about it, and r wonder if the minister could tell us whether or not he is going to ease off on the pressure? ~1R. SPEAKER: • The hon. minister. HR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, obviously the hon. member is not aware that this Province is now in a democracy and not a dictatorship. There is no vay that a~ybody is. going to force anything through. It will be voted on, discussed, debated and voted on by the House of Assembly which is the right way to do it. The City of St. John's has had an opportunity to provide input to the Regional Council Bill since January, 1977 . 9652

• • • • • • • • • • June 9, 1978 AN !!ON. :1E:·1BER: ·aR. DINN: Tape 4194 (Inaudible). The Council. EC - 3 They decided last year when the bill was introduced, at the eleventh hour, to come in with t~eir recommendations. At that point in time I agreed to defer. I said, 'I will give you one year to provide any input that you would like to provide, to make any discussions, to meet with me at any tine that you wish.' I was at their disposal, and, as a matter of fact, at the disposal of any concerned citizens' committee, any member of this House of Assembly, at the disposal of any town council, and they did come in.

They met four times, twice as a council and twice as concerned councillors, and we had discussions. This bill, "An Act To Establish The Northeast Avalon Urban Region", has been the subject of discussion by all the interested people on this side of the House every two weeks just about since last June, and we think we have an excellent piece of legislation and we think that it should be passed. We think that it is the way to go . As a matter of fact, we have a request from 9653

• • • • • • • .. • • • • June 9, 1978 T.1.pe No. 4195 ~ .• DINN: the joir:t to'm :ma community councils of the Burin Peninsula to h<J.ve a look at regional·govern.'T.ent with respect to t!1e lluri:t Peninsula, and ,,.e 1dll be doin~ that in the next yetlr, and ue uill discuss 1~ith them, and hopefully reach some agreement as to l·!!let!1er they 1·1ould like to zet involved or not. YR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the :,.on. member for Conception :~1:1:; South. ~!R. NOLAN: If I may, Hr. Speaker, even in the bill itself there is provision for a plebescite on regional government,

section 58,"Subject to the ap;Jroval of the minister the regional_council m&y, by order, authorize the holding of a plebescite in the region for the pur»ose of determb.in~ t::e v:!.et·7S of the electors in the region on any matter relating to local government in the rep;ion." What not start on tile right foot and call a ?lebescite noH? Hould t':\e minister consider that? MR • w. ROWE: No, boy. Too deroocratic. :-:F .• SPfu\:(ER! The ho:t. ;.rinister of 'lunicipal ,\~fairs. :-m. DINN: !fr.

Speaker, ~71th regarrl to· the provision in Bill SO, respectin:; plebescites, He feel that the rcgior..al govc=meJ:t eventual] y 1·1ill !lal:dle regional services only, '~ou.:.d not ..2v-2n be respo::sibl~ for unincorporated areas Jecausc 1;e feel ·that all the areas tdthi:-. tl:e region should be incorporated. So the provi3ion here is, a:1d I ~~1ink the hon. ~.emi:>12r for Concer:ticn Eay Sout!1 (ilr. ;'lola::.) •;ill rer.1ember last year .::·:'ln ue tal1:ec abcut the possibility of NeHtOI·:-n beco:n1.n;: ;>art of ~lou:J.t Pearl.

Ti1ey requas ted that t~ey :1a.ve n pleb!;:scite o.:-,d there ;vas no ?rovision i~ t:-:.e Locu.l Governnent :\.ct for ne, ~s nir:.istar, t~ hole! t:1at plebescite. So I had to negotiate ·Hith :::etrc Board and as:, ~::er.< i.!: t:1a:: ~·:auld on beha:f of the departrr.ent :1old a pl:::besci te ::o fir,d out ::12 ;.;:!.s:.e:: of the people in ~let.ito\m. • ."nd tl~e ~·!c t ro Eoard cc:1sentec to de t::.at :::~d the plebescite c1as :teld and the people ;:;ade 9654

• :'ape ,.;o. 4195 a decision anci I th~.:1k tha.t: is ti1c • l>.::y it should go . He also t!lcught at t:-.at tii:le ·~l·~c:t :::at '.!:l.S a ver:; reasonable thing to have in Bill S:J because ir. t~e coning yea:rs you mig!"!t get places like Kilbri<!e c!eciding • tl1at they ·,rant to become part of l1ount Pearl or the city of St.

John's, or setting up ~local governii:e:J.t of thems~lves and :ve felt that in order to determine the 1-lishes of t:1e people :ve should have provision in· the bill for the regional council to hold plebescites in different areas in the region to find • the ~-1ishes of the people . • UR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. CAPT. lH!~SOR: :tr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. ~~inistei of Fisheries. I am sure the 1lin~ster of Fisheries • is auare that the price of lobster has dropped fro:n $1.60 or $1.65 to $1.50. ':<oH I hear that there aro: fis!~em::n u!1o h.:~ve been holUing out for $1. SO.

I think the minister gave ti1e i~pression t~1at ~le ~-;as famili~r -:.-;ith some cornrn.~~~ on t!le :!ai:tland that carne • in here and '"as offering $1.80. l~as t:le minister any info=ation ;;hether there are any fishermen l·.'ho :1eld their lobster over and nou stand to lose tnirty cents per pounrl if that is the price paid today1 T:1e hon. JA..inie ter of Fisheries. ~-:R. H. CARTER: Mr. S;'eaker, t,~hen the lobster season comnu:.hced there ,,·as a company called Harbour Fisherie5 I ::hinl~, otmed and operated oy a chap naned !:'ennis Snow, a resident of • Nova Scotia.

He came in the Province, I believe at t:1e invitatior. . o£ the union, I am not quite: sure of t;l<Ot, but ;;hile i1ere indicat::d that they ;;ould be paying $1.80 :1 r>ound for lobster, Shntly <ifter the lobster season started, doubt ,.:as b·~L·<Z expressed by fisl12r;r:en • on the basi:=; of tile fCrforrnance of t:1.3.:. company, e.s tc t~eir ability to meet their commitment: to the fis:1er::1en, t;1at of paying $l.F'0 a pouau. .\t no time did I advise fis:1emen to !-.old t:1eir lobsters • 9655 •

• • • • • • • •• • • • J1.::1e 9, 1978 T:>pe :·lo. 4195 ~n: - 3 :!R. \~. C.\F.TER: until this $1.80 a ?Ou:1d '.J.'lS beb.g paid. Because I :nus t confess, ~·!r. Speake:r:, t:1ere l·:ere certain cloub ts expressed to !'!'.e and to my officials wi t!:J. respect to the ability of ·that cot!!!lan~· to make good their commitment. In the interim other companies, including National Sea and I thi:1l: . t:1e company, Hopkins Company and others, moved into ·the various areas and I believe paid a price, 1~hile not equal to the one offered by the other company, •1as certainly far above that paid last year.

I am not aware of any· fishermen naving held lobsters over pending the $1.80 pound price promised by t!:J.at company. That company, like I said, did not prove it ability to be able to ~ay the price promised . ORDEPS OF THE. DAY: 9656

• • • • • • • •• • • • June 9, 1973 Tape 4196 (Morning) PK - MR. SPEAKER: The Address in Reply?. Afl HON. MEMBER: Yes . MR. SPEAKER: Before ca 11 i ng Order 1 I wou 1 d 1 ike to welcome to the House of Assembly f!fteen education stud~nts from Memorial University accompanied by Professor McCann. I know hon. members join me in welcoming these students . SOME:HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER: Order 1, the adjourned debate on subamendment to the Address in Reply. The hon. Leader of the Opposition . MR. W. N. ROWE: Thank you, Sir . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W. N. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, I will be very brief today, expect to speak for about forty-five minutes or an hour or so to give other members of the House, on both sides, an opportunity to speak on . . some of the important matters affecting their districts and.the general problems and policies of the Province before Tuesday night when we expect this debate to clue up • am going to restrict my remarks, Sir, aside from one or two preliminary remakrs of a general nature,! am going to restrict my remarks to one aspect of the inshore and nearshore fishery which I am very concerned about, and the protection of the inshore and nearshore fishery.

But before doing so, Sir, I would like to say one or two words about a couple of other matters. One of them is the disappointing performance generally of the government during this session of the House of Assembly . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W. N. ROWE: I believe 1•1e have some sixty or sixty-five bills before the House at the present time. Now the Minister of Justice will undoubtedly stand up at some point and say, Oh that is the most bills we have had during this period of time or in such a short period of time since the House opened or something along those lines.

What I am talking about, Sir, is a session of the House of Assembly and the small 9657

• • • • • • • •• • • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4196 (Morning) PK - 2 Mr. W. N. Rowe: amount of meaningful legislation 1~hich the government has yet brought into the House, a small amount, Sir, The Dog Act is perhaps the high point, the pinnacle, the peak of this government's performance during this session of the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, ·hear! MR. W. N.

ROWE: There are one or two pieces of legislation which are important, but, Sir, the quantity of important legislation, Sir, has gone down miserably this year, and I woula·:say, Sir, will continue to go down as long as this administration is in office because, Mr. Speaker, this government has run out of steam, this government has run out of fresh vibrant and new ideas for coping with the problems of this Province. on that, Mr.

Speaker • And I would like to make just that comment If the hon. member for the Bay of Island (Mr. ·Woodrow), Sir, could just resume his seat or leave the House altogether I would be very appreciative. The first Liberal, Sir, to announce in the 1975 election, the member for the Bay of Islands. ·soME HON: MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W. N. ROWE: I remember my hon. colleague,· the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) commissioned to go out, Sir, to meet with that hon. member, Mr. Speaker, - MR. WOODROW: Oh, oh! MR. W.

N.RmJE: - that hon. member in order to gear him up,get him ready for his great campaign, Sir, he having announced he was going' to be the Liberal candidate, Sir, and on the way from Deer Lake to Corner Brook, by car, he switched on the radio to hear that the hon . member had changed his allegiance from the Liberal Party to the L1beral Reform Party , and· then, Sir, about an half an hour on, just before arriving at Corner Brook another announcement he was then running for the P.C. Party. And I understand now, Mr.

Speaker, from people in the Bay of Islands district that I talked to a ~1eek or so ago when I had the pleasure of visiting the beautiful district of the hon: member, Mr. Speaker, 9658

• • • • • • • .• , • • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4196 (Night) PK - 3 . Mr. W. N. Rowe: I understand now that he is sniffing the wind once more perhaps looking for the Liberal nomination next time around, sensing of course the great victory, Sir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. W. N. ROWE: But that is that han. member, Mr. Speaker. Very, very. flexible in his political philosophy, whi.ch is perhaps a good way to be, who knows. The han, Minister of Justice has certainly shown, set the example by his political flexibility, Mr.· Speaker, over the years.

It is ~o flexible, Mr, Speaker, you can mistake him for what is it they used to say about Dean Martin? A plate of spaohetti So relaxed and flexible about his political philosophy. SOME HON. 'MEMBERS: MR. W. N. ROWE: light. MR. MA YNARO: MR. W. N. ROWE: SOME HON. 'MEMBERS: MR. W. N. ROWE: OH, oh! The St. John's West member saw the That is right. He saw the light, Mr. Speaker. Oh, oh! As a matter of fact. somebody characterized not necessarily the St. John's West member, but leaving the P.C.

Party and joining the Liberal Party in 1971 was characterized by somebody as, jumping off The Queen Elizabeth onto the deck of The Titanic. a half an hour before she struck the iceberg. And that is 9659

• • • • • • • ·• • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4197 EC - 1 MR. lv. ~. ROl-lE : probably the wQy to - but, Mr. Speaker, that is all changed now, and n6w other people including the hon. the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) are s~iffing the breeze, Sir - very acute sense of smell - sniffing the breeze, w~ndering where he should go and what he should do now within the next year or two. And, Mr. Speaker, 'while the light holds out to burn~ the vilest sinner may return', as the hon. Joey used to say. AN HON. MEMBER: . (Inaudible). MR. lV. N. ROWE: Oh, no. The hon. the member for St. John's West (Dr.

Kitchen) is alright, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. 'JOODROW: is only joking. HR. IV, N. ROl-lE: ~!R. WOODROI-7: Oh, oh! I know the hon. Leader. I know he That is right. I feel he is only joking,but I never at any time said I would run for the Liberal Reform Party although I was ~sked. And I would like to see him, in f~ct - it is nice, for example, for people to respect a person so much. But I also had the feeling that I can win on my own name. SOME HON. MEMBERS: HR. SPEAKER: (Young) (Inaudible) ;m. \v. N • ROHE : Oh, oh! The bon. the Leader-of the Opposition. a point of order.

A blatant attempt by the member, Sir, to cut into my limited time. I guaranteed the Hinister of Justice, Sir, that I would only' be. about forty-five or fifty min~tes, Sir. I am afraid all deals are off now. I am going to have to carry on for the full hour and a half. ~!R. HICKi·lAN: ivhat deals? :.m. 1-7. N. ROHE: What deal? A deal.to bail out the 9660

• • • • • • • •• • • • June 9, 197"8 Tape 4197 EC - 2 ~(R. W. ~1. ROlvE: government of this Province, that is what deal; a deal, Sir, to help the Government of this Province get through their Budget so the people of the Province can be paid their salaries, that is the kind of deal, Sir - a government that cannot even bring in a audget Speech on time in enough time or bring in Interim Supply in time to make sure that the finances of the Province .are adequately looked after, that is the deal, Mz:. Speaker - AN BON. MEMBER: Right . MR. W. N. ROWE: - that we had to bail the government out on again this year.

The hon. ministers asks about what deals. That is the deal, Sir. lfR. NEARY: Look, he is screwing up his face over there. Find out what he is talking about, will you? MR. BICKHAN: (Inaudible) solemn a6reements and impeccable arrangements. MR. W. N. ROWE: Okay, we will.change it froo 'deals', Sir, to 'nefarious scheme'. MR .. NEARY: HR. W. N. ROWE: Do not involve me in any shade deals. Oh, no, Sir. The h~n. Rouse Leader on ~he Opposition side would never ·be party to anything like that, I know, from long association and experience with him.

As a matter of fact, Sir, he spends his time exposing nefarious and insidious deals that are going on in the Province with my full support and the full support of every ~ember of this caucus, Mr. Speaker. SOME BON. MEMBERS: MR. H. N. ROWE: SOME RON. MEHBERS: MR. SPEAKER: (Young). Hear, hear! Five minutes left. Oh, oh! Order, please! I thank the hon. the Leader of the Opposition; I would like t~ welcome on behalf of all the members of the Rouse of Assembly to the galleries 9661

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4197 EC - 3 ... MR. SPEAKER: (Young) eighty Grade III students from the Upper Gullies Elementary, Upper Gullies. They are accompanied by their teachers, Miss Brown, Mrs. McCarthy and Mrs. Halfyard. I trust you will have an enjoyable sitting. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hea·r, hear! !1R. W. N. ROWE : (Inaudible) yield, Sir, for such a pleasant purpose. Mr.

Speaker, I have mentioned a number of bills, the very low amount of meaningful legislation that this government has brought in during this session indicating the. bankruptcy of the ideas which we have spoken about at some length already. I would also like to reiterate a point I. made about the han. the Premier. Where is the Premier, by the way? MR. NEARY: Toronto. He is up in Toronto. MR. lv. N. ROWE: He is supposed to be up in Halifax having a speaking engagement. Toronto? HR. NEARY: Yes. AN HON. MEMBER: No, not in Toronto. MR. W. N. ROWE: Not in Toronto . MR. NEARY: He is gone to check the polls. MR. W. N.

ROWE: What is so attractive in Halifax or Toronto or wherever it might be, Mr. Soeaker? Polls - there is a poll being done_by the P.C. Party, Mr. SpPaker, a poll supposedly independent. They are going to make it public, Sir, to try to bolster their image now. As a matter of fact, the Premier of the Province tried to go on 3DC Television right in the middle of the poll, Sir, with a fifteen minute statement which was so slanderous, Mr. Speaker, that the lawyers for the NBC Television Station - CJON Television Station, Sir, would not allow it on the' air. Hhat kind of a Premier, :-!r·: Speaker, do we have ,in 9662

• • • • e • • • • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4197 EC - 4 HR. l<. N. ROWE: th~s Province, where he goes out with public money, I understand, to buy fifteen minutes of prime t·ime with a statement so utter scandalous and libelous that the NBC or CJON Television Station, Sir, which I would submit, Sir, has not been timid about ~utting out very clo~e to the line statements on various things going on in this Province, that station, Sir, which has been bold and forthright a_bout making information public, looked at the Premier's statement and had to ban it off the air because it was so libelous and scandalous . 9663

• • •• • e • • • • June 9,1978 Tape No. 4198 AH-1 ~lR.W.ROWE: the Premier's statement and had to bann it off the air because it was so scandalous. Seven or eight instances, Sir, of slanderous accusations made by the Premier of this Province using our money, Mr. Speaker, in order to do so. What kind of a Premier is he? AN HON. MEMBER: MR. WHITE: MR.W.ROWE: They should sell it now as a.stag movie. He is trying to bolster the poll • In a desperate .attempt to try to get something out over the airways, Sir, at the time that the PC poll was being done. MR. NEARY: Filth and pronography.

MR.W.ROWE: Well I would not go that far unless we are talking about sort of mental - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR.· W.ROWE: t-IR.NEARY: Oh, oh! It is for sale. Gary Callahan sign"ed the contract on behalf of the taxpayers so I do not see why we could not have a look at it. AN HON.MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. W.ROWE: MR. NEARY: MR. W.ROWE: No it has been sold. Somebody the minister's leg. Nobody h~s seen it. We .can only go by. what we have heard, Mr. Speaker, in the street., Since the.re is some talk as my hon. friend said, there is some talk of having the movie reproduced and sold for stag parties. it was that bad.

Slanderous and libelous accusations and statements made by the Premier of this. Province using public funds to do so, Mr. Speaker, at a time when the PC party is involved in doing a poll, Mr. Speaker, designed to try and bolster their image • .And right at the time that the time that the questions are going to be asked, Sir, the Premier comes on with all this garbage . MR. WHITE: HR. !~ • ROYE : MR.NE~_!: He must have ambitions • Yes he must. He go~ one supporter last ·night in 9664

• June 9,1978 !'ape No. 4198 AH-2 the Keg. One member of the Newfoundland Constabulary supporting the' hon. gentleman for leader in the Keg last ·night. MR. DOODY: It has not been announced yet. MR. NEARY:. No that is right. MR.W.ROWE: When ·he announces he will have two • _people in the Province supporting him as leader.

Mr.Speaker, - Ben Hawco - Mr.Speaker, now that I have the preliminaries over with I would like to say something which I consider to be a very serious problem involving the. insho~e and • nearshore fishery of th~s Province, Sir, and the necessity,the absolutely imperative necessity of protecting the inshore and nearshore fishery of the Province. SOME HON.MEMBERS: OM, oh! • MR. W.P.OWE: Mr. Speaker, what kind of ignorance has this place devolved to? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.W.ROWE: You cannot even make a speech here •• without four or five people getting involved. in a loud conversation across the House.

Discourtesy, Mr. Speaker, grouse ignorance of the •' worst order. AN HON.MEMBFR: You will get your pavement 'Bill' •• You will get your pavement. MR. DOODY: I have it. MR. NEARY: ·What about your s~er line? You got that too but it does not work • • }!R. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. IJ.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I wish the Minister of Fisheries was in his seat, Sir, he sits in his seat for a half hour or so every day in order to stand up and make a Ministerial Statement • and then he leaves. He did not do it today for some unknown reason- then he leaves, Mr. Speaker.

I wish he was here because I for one and I am sure people in this House and thousands of people outside the.House • 9665

••• • • e • •· • • • • June 9,1978 Tape No. 4198 AH-3 are extremely disappointed with the way that minister has been handling the portfolio of Fisheries. He is a gentleman, Sir, who appears to give every indication of doing no negotiation or talking with offici·als of the Government of Canada except through the media of this Province. He negotiates through the media, through either statements on ~ or by Ministerial Statements in this House.

As a matter of fact, Sir, he has been criticized severely over the last month or so particularly ·by the union and indeed by the industry itself for the haphazard and ad hoc way he has gone about trying to provide some leadership in the fishery of this Province and the lack of leadership that he has shown and the fact that he does negotiate through the media all the time.

Apparently, Sir, as fa.r as I can understand there is never any consultation of any kind with the union - perhaps there maybe some with the industry,. the management of the fish plants - I do not know but there seems to be no consultation of any kind with the representatives, the elected representatives of the fishermen and.processors or the great number thereof in this Province. This·shrimp stock controversy which arose over the last day or so, Mr.

Speaker, is a prime example of where licenses were issued by Romeo LeBlanc u'l! in Ott~wa, wrongly I believe as we all believ~ on this side of the House. - we made that position quite clear yesterday in response to the minister's statement, he socalled protest by tele~ up to the minister. But, Sir, it turns out that in spite of the pious platitudes uttered by the minister yesterday in his telex and in his protest, it turns out that all his efforts are after the fact. Nothing, Mr. Speaker, 9666

• • • • - • • • • • June 9, 1978, Tape 4199, Page l -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: nothing whatsoever was done by that minister, that minister himself personally, before the fact, in order to make sure we in Newfoundland got the lion's share or all of the benefit of those shrimp stocks, nothing, Mr. Speaker.

Yet, the minister gets up in answer to questions by my han. colleague the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde and indicates, Sir, that he himself had persbnally been in touch with or had written, or corresponded with the Minister of Fisheries in Ottawa, Romeo LeBlanc, personally, on a minister to minister level for· a p·eriod of months in order to try to solve this problem of the shrimp stocks to make sure that we got our share here in this Province, or got the lion's share, or got all of it • MR. F.B.ROWE: He would not go below the minister. MR. W.N.ROWE: He would not go below the minister he say"s, Mr. Speaker·.

And.it turns out, Sir, from our researchs that there is no record whatsoever, none, no record, Mr. Speaker, of any representation by that han. minister to Romeo LeBlanc the Minister of Fisheries on the subject of shrimp licences being issued for those newly discovered shrimp beds off Labrador. No record at all, Mr. Speaker,. nothing, none, by that han. minister, nothing. And getting up in this House with platitudes, and cliches, and trying to give the impression, stating matters whi·ch turn out to be untrue, false, infactual. Mr.

Speaker, I would say that is a very iow level for a public figure in .this Province to sink to, to be using the fishery as a political tool more or less heedless of what the actuality is, what the substance of these problems is, and making sure that he uses his power as a minister to try to get our fishery in this Province going in the best possible fashion. Saying that he has made 9667

• • • • e • • .. • • • • June 9, 1978, Tape 4199, Page 2 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: representations to the minister at the ministerial level and this turning out to be totally untrue, Mr. Speaker. MR. F.B.ROWE: That is in the last eight months. MR. W.N.ROWE: Yes, in the last eight months as far as our researchers can go back, the last eight mont~s not a representation on this subject. I am not saying there have not been representations made by deputy ministers, officials and so on with officials of the Government of ..

Canada on other subjects, maybe even incidentially touching this one, what I am saying - or that the minister has not talked generally with the minister on licensing generally or other subjects, but what we are talking about, the question was specifically directed and addressed these. shrimp stocks off Labrador, Mr. Speaker, and it was not until the die was cast by the federal minister in Ottawa in a manner which we do not agree with, that this hon. minister suddenly takes up the cudgel and goes to work portecting the interests of the Newfoundlanders. It turns out he did nothing whatsoever, Mr. Speaker .

A minister, as a matter of fact, Sir, and I say. this after due consideration - I must say I say it reluctantly, but I have to say it watching that minister in action over the last number of years - a minister who seems to welcome that kind of an opportunity, not to protect the interests of the Newfoundland fisherman or the Newfoundland fishing industry generally, Sir, but as an opportunity to launch another full-fledged attack, a political attack on Ottawa, to lash out again at Ottawa in an effort to bolster his own political image and make it look as if he is the protector and guardian of the Newfoundland fishery.

The facts, Sir; do not bear that 9668

• • • • • • • ' • June 9, 1978, Tape 4199, Page 3 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE:. impression out whatsoever. My understanding is that between DREE and the Department of Public Works and the Department of Fisheries in Ottawa, Sir, in the year 1978-79· there will be some $300 million spent by Ottawa regarding the fishing industry of this Province. Would that figure be correct? AN HON. MEMBER: MR. W .N .ROWE: AN HON. MEMBER: MR .. F.B.ROWE: · and - MR. W.N.ROWE: Yes. $300 million on the fisheries - Who? DREE, Public Works, Environment DREE, Public Works and Fisheries, I am told, by officials of the department. MR.

F.B.ROWE: You know, that is water lines and fish plants, superstructure and construction. MR. PECKFORD: That is what they are building down here in the Environmental - MR. F.B.ROWE: The whole works. MR. W.N.ROWE: You know, things involved with the fishery. I am not talking about - I am not restricting it to dories, or punts or trapskiffs. MR. HICKMAN: That would have nothing to do with the environmental - MR. F .B .ROWE: It does. MR. NEARY: It does, yes. MR. W.N.ROWE: Well, I mean, I am told - I do not know, right?

I do not know, I have to go by what I am told - I am told by the officials of the Department of Fisheries that directly and indirectly matters associated with the fisheries $300 million • MR. NEARY: That is right. That is correct. MR. W.N.ROWE: That is the figure I am quoted. MR. NEARY: Right.· MR. W.N.ROWE: Now, that may be wrong~ 9669

• • • • e • • • • June 9, 1978, Tape 4199, Page 4 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: Because how can I know? " Mr. Speaker, I did not count the number of dollars on the table. MR. F.B.ROWE: the·department. MR. W.N.ROWE: It carne from .an official of This is from the officials. This would involve all matters leading towards the 96'1'0

• • • • e • • • •• .. • June 9, 1978, Tape 4200, Page 1 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: increasing, the benefiting of the fishing industry in this Province. I would include also, of course, the subsidies and so on which are now the subject of grave problems now between Canada and the United States. $300 million I am told. It seems to me to be an astounding amount of koney, but I am told with a straight face. I do not know what the average over a year might be. Maybe this has some large capital works involved in it, new building and so on. MR. DOODY: harbour - MR. NEARY: MR.

F.B.ROWE: Is that the harbour, the'new No, that is Public Works. Yes, but it is fisheries and everything directly related to it . MR. SPEAKER: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: Order, please! (Inaudible) It does not include Port auc Basq~es harbour, that has nothing to do with the fisheries. MR. SPEAKER(Young): Order, please! DR. J. COLLINS: Would the hon. member have any comparable figure in the agricultural field? Just by way of comparison, just to try to get an idea of how the federal government regards the fisheries. They have $300 million they are giving to the fisheries.

Is this just Newfoundland or is all fisheries? And how would that compare with the agricultural thrust? MR. ' MORGAN: MR. W .N .ROWE: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. W .N .ROWE:. About one-third. How does it compare with what? Agriculture. Well, I do not know, Mr.Speaker. All I am talking about is the amount of money being spent in this Province directly and indirectly on matters which tend ot benefit the fisheries of this Province, as I am told by honest, I would assume, respectable officials of the Department of Fisheries of Canada . 9671

• • • • • • • J.une 9, 19 78, Tape 4 200, Page 2 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: Now what they spend on agriculture I do not know; There are some awful, I would say, some awful things going on in agriculture. Because in the United States and in Canada, because of the need to pay people not to grow certain things and so on, it is a very strange, weird, untenable, in many ways, position with regard to agriculture in North America generally. I do not pretend to be an expert on it. But I am talking about the fisheries.

Compared with, Sir, $18.5 million net being spent by the Newfoundland Government this year on the fisheries by this tremendous protector of the Newfoundland fishery. I just want to put that in perspective, Mr. Speaker. Let us know what we are talking about. I am glad there is $18.5 million. There probably should be an awful lot more. I was going to give the House the benefit of· a table I have here showing the net estimated expenditures over the last.number of years in this Province here with the increases 5 per cent, 5.4 per cent and so on over the years but, Sir, I will not bother·the House with that now.

But suffice it to say that a minister who lashes out at every opportunity at Ottawa, showing no leadership himself, seizing every difficult situation as an opportunity to criticize Ottawa . . for political purposes, Sir, a minister who does that should know that other people in this Province know that there is a great, ·tremendous disparity between the attention being paid to the Newfoundland fishery by the Government of Canada and the attention ·being paid to the Newfoundland fishery by the Government of Newfoundland.

I am not saying that the Government of Canada is doing enough, I am not saying that they are taking the right spproaches on many subjects, I am not saying that at all. As a matter of fact, they are taking a wrong approach but that is all in many subjects 9672

• • • • • • •e • • • • June 9, 1978, Tape 4200, Page 3 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: regarding the fishery but that is all the reason why we have to show the leadership here, Mr. Speaker, about the Newfoundland and Labrador fishery and not leave it entirely to Ottawa. Here we have to protect the Newfoundland fishery-from some of the erroneous things that may be done in Ottawa bearing in mind that Ottawa is responsible not only for the Newfoundland fishery, but the fisheries of Canada as a whole.

And that is why often you will see moves made or positions taken which are not in the best interests of Newfoundland and that is why ~e have to have a minister, Sir, who is more concerned with the substance of the Department of Fisheries rather than just the politic~l kudos or the political benefit that he can get from happening to occupy the .position of , Minister of Fisheries at any given time. The Premier of this Province, Mr. Speaker, will give you an idea about the concern of this government about the fisheries.

The Premier of this Province said before this House opened that the major thrust during this session of the House was going to be on two items, Labrador power and the fisheries of this Province and so far, Sir, this government has not . provided an opportunity for any debate on the development of the Newfoundland and Labrador fishery, no major debate on the Newfoundland fishery has so far been proposed by this government or allowed by this government even though one of their members, their backbenchers brought forward a private member's bill on the Nordsee proposal. Mr . .

Speaker, even though a private member did that,· Sir, 9673

• • • e • • •e • • • June 9, 1978, Tape 4201, Page 1 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: that has not been allowed to come up, which the government could allow to come up by having the debate on it on a government day by merely calling the order, that has not been allowed to come up, Sir. No major debate has been provided or allowed by the Newfoundland and Labrador Government on the subject which is of the most crucial impo·rtance to our development, namely the fishery. And that fact should be known, Mr. Speaker, that while this government and members like the member for Grand Falls district (Mr.

Lundrigan) in his generally hypocritical way, I would submit, Sir, AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. W.N.ROWE: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. HICKMAN: MR. W.N.ROWE: MR. F.B.ROWE: MR. W.N.ROWE: What is wrong. That is unparliamentary. Oh yes it is. No, Mr. Speaker. Not it is not. No-it-is-not. It is unparliamentary to call a member of the House a hypocrite, it is not unparliamentary to characterize a member's actions .as hypocritical, Mr. Speaker, that is clearly distinguished in Beauchesne. I have never called a member of this House a hypocrite nor shall I, Mr. Speaker.

But I do characteri~e actions of members and ministers in certain cases as appearing to be and, in fact, as.being hypocritical. We may have to change Beauchesne. I know hon. members opposite would like to change it to disallow all debate in the House they have gotten such a pasting during this session on nearly every matter that has come up • Mr. Speaker, even if one is prepared to admit that the lion's share of the jurisdiction over the fisheries comes or is under the auspicies and control of the Government at Ottawa, even if you are prepared to admit that, and that would appear to be the 96?4

• • • • e • • •e • • • June 9, 1978, Tape 4201, Page 2 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: case, that is no excuse. for this government abdicating its responsibility to provide leadership in t~e field of the Newfoundland fisheries. They have to provide the leadership, Sir, to make sure that our interest is protected. And if this means taking on Ottawa, confronting Ottawa, Sir, on important matters, head on at the official and ministerial level, then I say so be it.

But, Sir, leadership in the fisheries area is not provided if the Government of Newfoundland is taking on Ottawa for political purposes on every single little thing that ever emerges, every single little thing that ever comes up, Sir, because when an important matter comes up like this shrimp stock matter we are now involved in, Sir, this government has cried wolf so often that nobody pays any attention to it anymore, nobody knows if it is important or not, nobody has any idea, Sir, whether this is important or whether this is just another matter where the Government of this Province as represented by the Minister of Fisheries, is using this instance to try to gain for himself a little bit of political advancement, you might say.

What we need, Slr, is consultation and negotiation between Ottawa and Newfoundland with the leadership shown by this government here as far as the Newfoundland fishery is concerned, consultation and negotiation~ not head on confrontation day in and day out every five minutes. Confrontation if necessary, Mr. Speaker, on important matters, but remember you can only declare war once, and if you are going to declare war, then let us make sure you are declaring it, Sir, on a matter of great principle not on some political expediency that may arise every fifteen or twenty minutes. Now, Mr.

Speaker, we will talk, I hope, on Wednesday about the Nordsee proposal but I have no assurance of that. The government has tried 9675.

• • • • e· • • •e • • • • June 9, 1978, Tape 4201, Page 3 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: to keep that debate from coming up in this House ever since. the House opened several months ago. I hope that the Nordsee proposed takeover will come up for debate on Wednesday, but we have no guarantee. ·It has to, Mr. Speaker. The House might be closed by Tuesday for all I know • MR. PECKFORD: No, Siree! MR. W.N.ROWE: No, Siree, eh? MR. PECKFORD: No, Siree! MR. W.N.ROWE: Well I hope it comes up, Mr. Speaker. MR. PECKFORD: {Inaudible) we have too many things to do here to close the House on Tuesday. MR. F.B.ROWE: on Wednesday. MR.

W.N.ROWE: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. W .N .ROWE: The minister and his statements Oh yes, lots of things to do. Oh, oh! Lot of things to do. The government is likely to close the House, Sir, it is so punch drunk over there as a result of the last three months. I hope they keep it open until next September. Let us close when the Queen comes, for a day or two. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W .N .ROWE: Maybe we can have her close the House and then open it again before she leaves - for the new session. Let her prorogue the House and then open it again, read the Speech from the Throne. Not a bad idea. AN HON.

MEMBER: Not a bad idea. MR. HICKMAN: I can tell you that bank managers {inaudible) last week . MR. W . N. ROWE : MR. HICKMAN: MR. W.N.ROWE: Many bank managers? Yes. The minister's sophisticated· illusion, Sir, has passed right over my head. I do not - MR. LUSH: {Inaudible) 9676

• • • • • •e • • • • June 9, 1978, Tape 4201, Page 4 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: The hon. the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) ·knows. With the high fiannce, we are on the same wave-length. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. HICKMAN: MR. W.N.ROWE: MR. PECKFORD: That is right. What is he talking about? I think you should put the hon. Minister of Finance and the hon. member for Terra Nova - MR. W.N.ROWE: Oh yes~ Okay! I am not so preoccupied, Sir, as some members, obviously, with the fact that I am starving to death. SOME HON. MEMB.ERS: Hear, hear! MR. W.N.ROWE: It does bother me every now and then, I get a little pinch in the stomach here . 9677

• • • • • • • • • June 9, 1978, Tape 4202, Page 1 -- apb MR. DOODY: you were on more serious matters • MR. W.N.ROWE: That is right, I was on the starvation of the Province as a whole, Mr. Speaker, rather than my personal survival. Mr. Speaker, the Nordsee proposal; what kind of leadership has. this government shown in that area?

Now I will be saying a few more detailed remarks on Wednesday, if the government ever get the courage to keep the House open and have that matter debated, I will be having a few more remarks to say, but there is one aspect of that, Sir, which is. so pervasive, and I feel so important to talk about that I cannot risk waiting until Wednesday to talk about it. If we have the debate on Wednesday I will go into it again, other aspects of it, but let me touch on it in any event.

I want to touch on one or two aspects of the Nordsee proposed takeover which is being pushed down the throats of Newfoundland by this government for some obscure reason and I have my suspicions, and I will give a full account of my suspicions on Wednesday· coming. The excuse now, Mr.

Speaker, given by the government over the last number of months, is access to European markets as if giving licences to a West German company to utilize its five old trawlers that it cannot use, .they are redundant because of our declaration of the 200 mile limit, as if that, Sir, in some way is necessary in order to get access to the European markets. Mr. Speaker, there has never been a greater red herring dragged over a matter than that red herring concerning these five old trawlers that the West Germans are now trying to utilize because they have no use for them .unless they use them o'ver here.

A red herring, Sir, and, as I say, I will get into that on 9678

• • • • • • • •e • • • June 9, 1978, Tape 4202, Page 2 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: Wednesday, I hope, if the matter ever comes up for debate. It is not necessary at all in order for us to get access to the European markets, Mr. Speaker, to have .that company come in here and fish in the Northern c·od stocks, get li~ences and fish in the Nor'thern cod stocks, Sir • What I want to talk about today, Mr.

Speaker, ~or the next half hour or so, is this idea that there is in the Northern groundfish stock a surplus, this my~hical surplus that is often referred to that has to be taken in 1978 and in 1979 and in the succeeding years, this surplus, this codfish which is surplus to the needs of the inshore and nearshore fishery as far as this government is concerned and as far as the Government in Ottawa is concerned, and as far as certain, I believe, unthinking or unconcerned people are concerned in this Province. There are two aspects, of course, Mr. ·speaker, to the Nordsee proposed takeover •.

One is the takeover of the plant itself by the injection of foreign capital as a processing plant. That is something we will get into on Wednesday. Fish processing at the plant. The other aspect, which is much more important, and this is where the granting of ·the licences come into the picture. Remember FIRA, F-I-R-A, the agency in Ottawa which approves foreign takeovers or not is only concerned, Mr.

Speaker, not with the granting of the licences to allow trawlers ·to fish out of the Northen cod stocks, it is merely concerned as to whether or not a foreign company should be allowed to b11y a majority sharehol1ing in Ocean Harvesters Limited in Harbour Grace. That is the only thing they are concerned with. We can· lay that to one side, Mr. Speaker,. because that is a different problem' altogether and one, I would submit, which has been blown completely out of proportion and is not as important as 9679

• • • • • •e • • • June 9, 1978, Tape 4202, Page 3 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: the wind and gas which we have heard over the last number of months would seem to indicate. What is important, Mr. Speaker, is the ot:her aspect, not the fish processing and whether that is owned by Nordsee or whether it is owned by a Canadian company, that is important but not half as important or qua~ter as important, Mr. Speaker, as the fish catching aspect of this whole proposal. Mr.

Speaker,· the fish 'catching aspect of the proposal involves the granting of fishing licences to allow these trawlers to go out and catch fish in the Nor-thern cod stock for processing in Harbour Grace or elsewhere. Now, Mr. Speaker, as I said, on Wednesday I will get into some of the details of this a little further, but just to brush over it until I can get into the meat of the question of the surplus in that Northern cod stock, or_ those areas; Mr. Speaker, just let me 9680

• • • • e • • •e • • • June 9, 1978 Tape No. 4203 ~!!!.. W. ROIJE: :nention one or ~~o points very briefly . First of all ~,·e should realize, Sir, that ::!-.is is not the first attempt by a fcreign company, or the last attempt by a foreign company to gain access to our Canadian fish resources. Pe should keep that in mind, Mr. 'Speaker. Resources, Sir, Hhich they are ~nabla to get through allocations. They are unable to get it through foreign allocations.

They are unable to get it becauae of the 200 mile limit having been proclaimed und they are n01·1, Sir, trying to e;et it by ~;ay -get the benefits of'our a:r.:tende:d jurisdcitions through the bacl~ door. ~e should keep that in Ulind, t!r. Speaker, a::d as I say we '~ill talk a little more about that on \-iedne~ day. I believe ~ayself, Sir, that it is. highly undesirable to have one company, especi.:!lly a large foreign m:ned comp<llly, catch such a large quantity of fish, Mr.

Speaker, of the ::orthern ground fish stocks, very highly u.-1desirable to l1ave one company in there and have our futar<: or ce loc!:.ad into a long term commitment to one large compa:1y. I believe, Sir, that if there is a surplus there, and :1e uill come to that question, if there is a surplus in the ~lortl1ern cod stock, ;.f:;:. Sp~aker, it si10uld be caught by vessels chartered for ti1:1t rurpose on a seasonable basis, for as long as, and to the extent that C3. udian owned vessels are not available to take it.

I thi::.l: •;a should concentrate on Canadian mmed vessels if there is ::1 sut"?lus and not get locked into for~ign de:oo.ls on the catchin3 of fish in the ~orther:1 cod stock. Then, Si:r, I bel:'.eve t:tat '·' 4 '·'Ould not have this ques:::.o·.1 of a sell out to for-aig:-.. interests, c:r:C.. Sir, there ~.;ol!ld be eut?loy~e·.lt ere a tee! i:1 ot!ler pla::t;;, ir: aC:diticn to ~he Li:J.rbour Grace plant, bec~~s~ that is i~?ortant too. 'l'Z.lere is no reason as important as t~H~ ~rbour Gr.z.cc plant i,; in u.~, .. he::. collea~ue' s district t~1at could t.!SC access O!:' could us€ 9681.

• Juae 9, 1978 T::1pe ~c. 4203 ~o · J?rovidc fresh cmploymc!".t, at~1cr • e~?lO}-ment, onshore in the processing, Sir. I do not think, Sir, there is any :-.eed to find r;::sourccs for t:1ese large vessels that catch in t::e Southern areas during the Northern area off season. But in any • eve:J.t, ::r. Speaker, just to skip quicl~y over this and to get to' the !:'.est i1:1por.tant point that I would like to make today, t!1is question of capital in the Nordsee proposed takeover, ~·!r. Sreaker, and tha·t the only capital available is somehow • foreign capital can be shot full of holes, !1r.

Speal~er, irt five rainutes. Fishery Products does not have any difficulty raising capital either through the help of this govern;;;e<lt or without it. Other companies, ·sir, <!o r.ot have any difficulty • raisi:J.g capital in Canada, outside Ca~da, guaranteed by the . government or othen;ise, Hr. Speaker. So let us not talk about the need for c::!pital in the Rarbour Grace plant, $3 millioa, !!r. S?eal<:.er, as. beinG ·outside the ability of the company over there, • Hr. Speaker . :!r.

Sj?eaker, the most important ?Oint regardin~ this proposed takeover, regards this distinction bet<men the near shore fichery on the one hand, and the offshore •• fishery on the other. That is the raost important point I beli:,;ve t:1at :1as to be gone into as far as the ·:!c0ate on the grantir.g of licences to fish in th<: :!orthern cod stock is concerned. The .question '.le !1ave to ask our:;elves, :!r. Speaker, is 11iiet:1er He • should allot-~ ::he Govern1:1ent of Canada, or the Government of :-le· ..

Ifoundland, pressing the Gov~rnment of Canada, to disallow it. i~hether ~•e should allo1• as a people the catc:1ing of fisl: at .s.ll in this ~iothern cod stock. He 11ave to ask ourselves 1>i1ether i:-. • fact a genuine surplus, sur?lus to the r.eecis of the insi1ore anti t:•~ near sho;:e fishery exists. :1r. Speakc_r, before lau::.chi::b ii.1to t:1e burden of thos~ rem.2rks, I u:1d~rstanC you Hould lil~e to • ' .. relcot'le SOli!.C students uho nra here . 9682

• • • • • • • •e • • • June ? , 1973 Tape :<o. 4203 SPL<\i(ER (DR. COLL I:lS) : I thank t~e hon. mer::ber for ~lis courtesy. I 1;ould like to '-7elcoRe .::n ~ehalf of hon. ;ael!Wers t;.;enty-seven students from the Charisma Pentecostal Academy, Little Bay Road, Springdale,-·,7ho o.re in gr~de six, and they are accompanied by their teachers Ralph Ro11sell and Ha.~da Hobbs. I am sure hon. members 1muld like to 11elcorne them . SOHE liON. !•!EMBERS : ~~. SPEAKER: :m. W. ROl-lE: Hear, hear! The hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~·!e have to determine, l1r.

Speaker, because it is the most important point, and if 1·e do not ·determine it in a .sensible, rational way and come to the right conclusicr., then r,.re 9683

• • • • • • • ·- • • • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4204 (Morning) . PK - 1 14r. W. N. Rowe: jeopardize the most important aspect of the fishery in this Province on the Northeast Coast, the inshore and nearshore fishery, whether a genuine surplus exists in the Northern. cod stock or not. In December of 1977, Mr. Speaker, there was a two day conference on the Newfoundland Fishery held at Marystown, I do not know if my han. friend, I believe, my han. friend the member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Canning) was there·, the han.

Don Jamieson was there, pther people where there political figures and, of course, the industry and the union were adequately represented. There were representatives of government, fish trade unions, fishermen, there were . a lot of people there, Mr. Speaker, and the conference went on, and a very productive conference it was, and I have read several reports of what went on at that conference . It was de~ermined, Mr.

Speaker, at that conference as a result.of the discussions and the statistics that were presented by·various officials of the' two governments, it was clear from the statistics and the .discussions that with the 200 mile limit now in place, Mr. Speaker, and with good management practices, with good management pratices, not 11hat we have had over the last number of years, but with good management practices it will take five to ten years to rebuild the fish stocks in this Province, which are important to this Province.

That is what came out of that conference, Sir, I believe, the single most important point that came out of the conference.

Another point that ·came out, Sir, which was not a misconception to many people in the Province,. but was a misconception to others, and it was cleared up I believe and I hope it was cleared up finally for everybody, especially those involved in the fishing industry, a misconception that was finally .. cleared up was that there are two independent unr.elated fisheries going on in this Province, the inshore fishery and the offshore fishery, that these are in some way mutually exclusive and independent one from the other.

It was cleared up at that conference, Sir, if it ever existed as a doubt in anybody's mind,- and I believe it did from 9684

• • • • • • ·- • • • • June 9,1978 Tape 4204 (Morning) Mr. H. N. Rowe: my discussions beforehand, what is done in the offshore fishery, Mr. Speaker, drastically affects the future of the inshore fishery as well and thousands of people involved in the inshore fishery. That the two fisheries are not mu~ually Pk - 2 exclusive, and that .if you catch too many or catch too much fish offshore that you will destroy the inshore fishery in this Province. Now if anyone ever had any doubts about that, Mr. Speaker, the statistics and the expert opinion delivered at the conference cleared it up forever, Mr. Speaker.

There are not two independent fisheries, the inshore fishery and the nearshore fishery which is of great importance to this Province, a vast importance.to this Province now and in the future, Sir, depends completely and directly on what care is taken and what is done with regard to the offshore fishery. And, Sir, believe at that conference that members of the industry and members of the union and public figures,and certainly I believe this, and I belteve I am speaking for all of my colleagues on this matter that the inshore fishery must come first.

I do not·think that anybody in this House would deny that, anybody who has a fishing district, that the inshore fishery, the nearshore, ~1hen I say, inshore, I am tal king about the inshore·,;nearshore fishery,· Mr. Speaker, as opposed to the offshore with the trawlers and so on. That the inshore, nearshore fishery must come first. And because the inshore, nearshore fishery must come first, Sir, we must move exceedingly slowly with the slowness of a snail, Mr.

Speaker, and with exceeding caution regarding any concession gr~nted by Canada to foreign companies or foreign countries regarding our fish stocks offshore or in the prosecuting of the offshore fishery generally. And if we are going to make mistakes, Mr. Speaker, if we are going to make errors let us er.r, let us make a,.mistake on the side of protecting the inshore, nearshore fishery.

And, Sir, let us not lock ourselves into any arrangements with any companies foreign or domestic, but especially foreign companies, Sir, because then you are getting involved into treaty.making, and perhaps, tarrifs, and a number of other things, ·Mr. Speaker. Let us make sure that any concessions 9685

• • • • • • • • • • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4205 EC ~ 1 MR. W. N. ROWE: are given on the basis of exceeding caution in the protection of the inshore fishery which means watching scrupulously and carefully the offshore fishery, and that we should not lock ourselves into long-term or permanent arrangements, Mr. Speaker, with companies regardin3 the prosecution of the ~orthern cod stock . We must, Mr. Speaker - I believe this as fervently as I believed anything in my life, that we must take time to see where we are going in the fishery in this Province.

We need to take time to see how well the stocks offshore ·are recovering around this Province, and we must take the time to see how our own inshore and near shore fishermen are doing over the next number of years around this Province . We must take the time to see where we are going in all these respects, Mr. Speaker, before entering into any foreign deals whatsoever. We must, Mr. Speaker, for the protectidn of the inshare fishery.

Lecause, as was mentioned in this conference and substantiated and confirmed by the best expert opinion in the Province, if you catch a codfish in a North;rn groundfish stock in March, then that is a fish that you will not catch, ~r. Speaker, in July inshore. I believe, Sir, that statement is on• believed implicitly by anyone with any expert knowledge practical or theory, any expert knowledge of the fishery. MR. NEARY: Long established. MR. W. ~- ROWE: Long established, Mr.

Speaker, long known by the fishermen - I have heard it for ten years that I have been involved in politics, but now, Sir, I believe, firmly established in the minds of scientists and theoretical people, people with some philosophy of the fishery or some theories of the fishery, Sir - now established clearly_ in their minds as well - MR. NEARY: Dr. Art May .

• • • • • • • • • • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4205 ~c - 2 ~R. W. N. ROWE: Dr. Art May is a name, -for example - that if you catch a fish in the Northern cod stock in March then tha~ is a fish that you will not catch, Mr. Speaker,· inshore on the Northeast Coast of ~ewfoundland in July. And as simple a statement, Sir, as that may be, it is a basic one, and·one, Sir, that may determine the complete future of the cod fishery in Newfoundland and Labrador. Now, Sir, let us get to this question of a surplus and whether or not a surplus·exists in the Northern cod stock. My own view,-Mr.

Speaker, based on the best opinion that I can seek out and read and talk to over the last number of months and years, my own view is that no surplus exists in the Northern cod stock in this Province. Mr. Speaker, the quota set by the Government of Canada for cod caught in ICNAF areas 2J-3KL in 1978 has been set at 135,000 metric tons. This area 2J-3KL, is, of course, becoming a familiar figure - a familiar sort of combination of figures and numbers now, Mr. Speaker.

That area, of course, is the area that includes the Labrador and Northeast Coast of Newfoundland down to the Southern tip of the Avalon Peninsula - that is what is referred to as 2J-3KL; and the quota for cod caught in that ICNAF area in 1978 has been set at 135,000 metric tons for 1978. Of that quota, Sir, 135,000 metric tons, 35,000 metric tons have already been allocated to foreign countr{es. That has been allocated and that will be taken .and that is gone - 35,000 metric tons have been allocated under the deal, of course, where the 200 mile limit was first proclaimed • back.

Oh, the Minister of Fisheries is I am glad to see he is back. - . Now, Mr. Speaker, it is trite, of course, and well known to everyone that if the yest German 9687

• June 9, 1978 Tape 4205 EC - 3 :·!R. W. N. ROHE : ~orupany, ~ordsee, wishes to catch • ;;orthern cod out. of this area that it must come from th'e • • • • • ·- • • • 9688 •

• Ju.rte 9, 1978 Tape No. Li206 l1R. W .N. ROl-lE: • Canadian quota of :!.OO,O:JO ::~~tric tons, t:nat is ~~:1ere they r.mst r;et t::te fish that they vant to catch. But Sir, as I said earlier and as I ~nll hopefuliy demonstrate, personally I do not believe and I '·TOuld like to hear the Minister of Fisheries C·lr. Carter) on • t:tis, I do not believe that 11e have any fis!1 to give a1·1ay out of that 100,000 tons in those ICNAF areas. In 1971, and if I am ir..correct in any of these figures I nope the ~!inister of Fisheries (}tr.

Carter) I·Till correct me because they are ~ased on ~That I • have been told by so called experts and ~~hat I have read in my • researches and so on. In 1977 the-inshore nearshore fishermen landed 75,000 tons of cod and Canadian tra1·1lers landed 6,000 tons of cod in that 2~3KL area, the northern cod stock, I believe that • is correct. "'!R, F.:3. ROW:::: That is ~he 1')77 ·1uota there. '"' .. .-:.r· •• ~·i. ~:r. ROWE: Right. iT.. F .:s. ?.OHE: (inauc!ible) an~ t:1e1~ they Zlad · • th~ joi:l.t ve:1tures. •ro ' l-~. "VI.~. ROVE: That is t!1c - ~~- F.n. ROHE: T!1at is just 'luotns. :~. H.~.

ROHE: That is rig!:t, 350,00. The for- •• cigr: effort 1:ns 90,000 tor:s in 19i7. I ~.-as r:ot referring to t!:e foreign effort ~-n 1977 merely· the domestic effort. Of course, eir. Spea1·.er, :-.obody :-~noHs, perhaps the :unister does I do not, no- body i<U.O'\VS i10H many more tons could :1ave been t3.ken i:1 if the tr.:1p • fisi1e=e!l l1ad been given fair play i:1 1977, ti;at is if there :1ad bee~ enou~h ?rocessir:::; n..'1d freezing capacity in order to ta!<.e into accouG.:: ti-~e glut duri~1g the ::rap. seaso~~ Nobody :<:no'>JS ~Ot·7 much ~·Tas C:ur:rped, i!r.

Spea~<.cr I do not suppose ualess t~1e i•!iniz ter :1as· • so~e figures on t~1is . l·!R. ':AP.TER: It '.-1a; not all t!1at t-l~S dunpeci it Nas the amour..t of fisi1 t~e fiz:1ermen could not catch because they could r..ot haul ·the·ir gear . • 9689 •

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• • • • • • • •• • • • • June ~, 1973 Tape No. 4206 ::r .. ;;,N. J'!.OHE: in the year 1978, I do not believe for one second Yr. Speaker that ;;e s!1ould lock ourselves in, as a province, to a lens term deal ~~ith a foreign co~epany regarding our Canadian quota. I believe ~r. Speaker, I may be lvrong but I do believe sincerely and I know lots of pe.ople in • the province' who believe sincerely as Hell t!1at in 197? and. in the early 1980's .969:1

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4207 IB-1 MR. W. ROWE: with the inshore, near shore fishing effort increasing, Mr. Speaker, and with better catches per boat in the inshore and nearshore fishery and with , as I mentioned earlier, the glut problem alleviated if that can be alleviated. The inshore and the nearshore fishery should be able, I believe, should be able to take the full Canadian quota for at least the next few years of fishing in this Province.

I V!ould like to hear the Minister of Fisheries talk about that aspect of the problem regarding the Nordsee proposal or any proposal to give away part of our quota to a foreign fishing effort • We have to remember all the time, Sir, that in 1955 and I believe these figures are correct, 1955, twenty-three years ago with more llmited technology - I will make this point and then the han. ·minister can ask a question. Wait until I make this point.

We should remember,_ Sir, that in 1955, twenty-three years ago with even more limited technology than we have now in the inshore fishery and with fishermen, Sir, spending much more time in other aspects of t~e fishery in those days, salting and drying fish, we should remember that the figures that I have and the minister may be able to confirm or deny this, our inshore fishery had landings of 167,000 tons of cod in 2J3KL, the Northern cod stock, 67,000 tons more in 1955 if my f1gures are correct and I believe they are, more than the Canadian quota of 100,000 metric tons.

Now the minister wanted to ask me a question, Mr. Speaker. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the han. member of course is talking about the allocation of surplus quotas. He talked about the Nordsee proposals that would have the affect maybe of having an additional pressure applied on the Canadian inshore effort in 1978 and the offshore and beyond.

I wonder would the han. member then not agree that maybe recent actions on the part of the federal government, and again I say this at the expense of being accused of picking a fight with Ottawa, but I wonder would he not agree that the recent action on the part of Ottawa whereby they gave 5,000 tons of cod fish from the areas outlined by the han. member, 2J3KL, to Spain without any economic 9692

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• • • • • • • •• • • •• • June Y, 1Y7tl Tape 4207 IB-3 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. W. CARTER: And that' if there is a surplus it be held in abeyance until such time as we are satisfied that some - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. W. CARTER: - economic return comes to this Province - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! ~1ould 1 ike the hon. minister to give us his point of order. MR. W. CARTER: - for these quotas. MR. SPEAKER: I feel it is not a point of order just more or less a point of explanation and I ·ask the hon. member to continue . MR. W. ROWE: The minister; Sir, is very touchy on this issue . 9694 .

• '. • • • • • • •• • • • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4208 IB-1 MR. W. ROWE: and I do not blame him for being very touchy, for having to present himself in a ridiculous light, attacking something publicly after the fact. MR. W. CARTER: (Inaudible) has not been established yet. MR. W. ROWE: We are ta 1 king about the shrimp stocks now. MR. W. CARTER: · (Inaudible). MR. W. ROWE: I am talking about the shrimp stocks now, Mr. Speaker. I do not know what he is talking about at all.

I am saying that this hon. minister as usual put himself in the ridiculous position.­ I say ridiculous, that is the wrong word be~ause ridiculous means it is sort of laughable and it is not laughable, it is serious.- of not having presented adequately this Province's views before the fact to the minister in_Ottawa, the minister in Ottawa taking a position which he probably thought ·was· in the best interests of ·canada as a whole but which may not be in the best interests of Newfoundland and Labrador, Mr. Speaker, which is the minister's job.

To put himself in that kind of a position, Sir, of protesting by a strongly worded cliche ridden telex after the fact, that is the point I am making, that this needs to be done before the fact. But I did not want to get into a personal dispute on this matter with the minister. I am trying to make a more important point . That is that in 1955, twenty-three years ago, with more limited technology, with I would submit, less fish per boat and with more time spent on other activities involved in the fishery by fishermen, Mr. Speaker, our inshore had landings of 167,000 tons of cod in 2J3KL, ICNAF area.

And we are now.saying that with an allocation or a quota rather of 100,000 metric tons that there is· a surplus capacity, surplus .beyond the capacity of our inshore and nearshore fishery. Mr. Speaker, the whole thing is totally ridiculous and something which may have the effect of seriously damaging the inshore and nearshore fishery in this Province and something which we in Newfoundland should be fighting against. know it is the Government of Canada's that is doing it but let us fight against it in the best possible way by making sure that our 9695

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4208 IB-2 MR. W. ROWE: views are known and that there is constant, continuous discussion, consultation, negotiations, pressure.brought to bear on Ottawa, not by getting the back of the minister up or the back of all the officials in·Ottawa up because we are constantly smacking them across the face or kicking them in the shins here in this Province. w·hat kind of a way is that to carry on? A bunch of children, Mr. Speaker. Let us consult, negotiate, press our view and make sure that· our interest is protected.

And if this government was protecting our interests as far as the inshore fishery and nearshore fishery is concerned they would not with unseemly haste be trying to enter into some kind of a very, very suspicious deal, Mr. Speaker, pushing a deal between the Nordsee interests and Ocean Harvesters to take offshore so called surplus capacity out of 100,000 metric tons of fish in the Northern ground fish stocks. MR. F. ROWE: They still have not got their policy straightened up. MR. W .. ROWE: There is no policy, Mr. Speaker, over there. Every week-like the spruce budworm, Mr.

Speaker, and like everything else that has ever been mentioned, like the hospital commitments, there is no policy over there. You get the president of the P.C. Party saying one thing one day and something else the next. You get ministers who are going to resign, Mr. Speaker,unless such and such is done with regard to the Nordsee fishery. The whole thing is totally unsavoury, Mr. Speaker, in my mind, suspicious and smacks of some kind of a sellout of the best interests of the inshore and nearshore fishery in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W.

CARTER: At least we are not talking about burning their boats . MR. W. ROWE: Now, Mr. Speaker, that is sensible what he is saying there now .. MR. F. ROWE: Bring up Dr. Valdmanis now and the rubber plant~ MR. W. ROWE: Yes, Mr. Speaker:. Let us talk about how John Cabot should not have put the baskets over the boats. You know, terrible 9696

• • • • •• • • •• • • • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4208 IB-3 MR. W. ROWE: should not have. put the baskets over the boats. You know, terrible environmental pollution. He.should not h~ve put the baskets over, . Sir, and hauled them.up full of codfish. God knows what irreparable damage he did in 1497 to our· cod stocks. If I can get my few notes here, Mr. Speaker, I will carry on. God knows what John Cabot did · to our fishery, Sir, with those baskets. And now we are talking about Vald Manis are we or what is it? Burn your boats? Or what is it? A yellow dog can get elected down here if he had a Liberal tag. What are we going to hear next? 9697

• • • • e • • • • • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4209 MR. W. ROWE: l~e are trying, Mr. Speaker, to talk about a serious subject . MR. W. CARTER: It hurts does it not? IB-1 MR. H. ROWE: It hurts? Mr. Speaker, the hon. minister was one of those yellow dogs. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. W. ROWE: No, Sir, he had the guts to go to a Tory district and get elected, not like the hon. minister in one of the safest Liberal seats at that time. So, Sir, we are talking about - MR. W. CARTER: (Inaudible) MR. W. ROWE: Oh, Mr. ~-peaker - MR. F. ROWE: Listen to it now. MR. 1'1. ROWE: Mr. Speaker - MR. F. ROWE: Put up the (inaudible).

MR. W. ROWE: What is it now. ~Jhat is this now, Sir, a man cannot - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. W. ROWE: Okay .. Mr. Speaker, ·vour Honour - AN HON. MEMBER:- (Inaudible) MR. W. ROWE: That is all right. That is all right. Mr. Speaker, Your Honour I hope is· taking due notice of the fact that you are also basking in the light of these insults flung across the House. The Speaker of the House having also in an effort, in a desire to improve his knowledge and his learning decided to go over to Cambridge University while he was a member of the House of Assembly. I would be the last one to critcize.

I admire Your Honour for the gumption, the aggressiveness shown, the intellectual curiousity shown togo over and improve the state of his mind a little bit with more learning, more know1edge. I did the same thing, Mr. Speaker, and there is something suspicious about this all of the sudden. And I am glad Your Honour did it an~ I am glad I did it and four or five or seven or ten years from now I will take another s~batical in an effort, 9698

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• • • • • • • • • • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4209 IB-3 MR. W. ROWE: Speaker, when we are talking about the most important aspect of our ·life in this Province with the possible exception of getting our fair share of the value of Labrador power as far as the economy is concerned, T.he actual input of money into th·e economy, with the possible exception of that - I am not saying it is an exception, possible exception, Sir, the proper development of the inshore and nearshore fishery in this Province is the most important subject to come before this House ever. And what do we hear?

Testy remarks are thrown across the House, Sir, no attempt to address the issue • . No debate put on the Or9er Paper by the Minister of Fisheries, Mr . Speaker, to try to help out in this issue. No, Sir. The odd ministerial statement, adhocery, Mr. Speaker, put her in slings, no comprehensive plan or anything like that, Mr. Speaker . Now, Sir, to continue. As I said twenty-three years ago, 167,000 tons of cod in that area in the Northern cod stocks, were taken by the inshore and nearshore fishermen in this Province.

And we talk about 100,000 tons now with new technology, with new people going into the fishery, with I hope increasing facilities and capacity for pr·ocessing and we talk about there being a surplus to the needs of the inshore and nearshore fishermen. The whole thing is laughable, Sir, laughable. MR. F. ROWE: Within the realm of error. MR. W. ROWE: Certainly within the realm of error, that is the point, that even if there is some preceived surplus there the margin of error would be greater as seen by any reasonable person, Sir, would be greater than that preceived surplus.

And that is why we should not give any so ·called ~urplus to any foreign fleet or to ·any other company in an offshore effort, Mr. Speaker.~ ·WE should err, we should make mistakes if mistakes are·going to be made on the side of.caution, on the side of protectins 9'/DO

• • • • • • •• • • • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4210 IB-1 MR. W. ROWE: the inshore and nearshore fishery. Now, Mr. Speaker, if at some time several years away the inshore and nearshore fishery has reached a natural peak and then levels off and then there is a plateau and the best advise. from the fishermen and their representatives and by other experts in the field of the fishery is that the inshore fishery has reached this plateau and is going to remain there or with· . a very gradual increase over the foreseeable future, when. in other 1vords, Mr.

Speaker, we are absolutely certain that the inshore·and nearshore fishery is taken ·care of in this Province as far as resource allocations are concerned to that fishery and, Sir, if then by careful management of that stock, the Northern cod stock, Mr. Speaker, there is fish left over that is really surplus to the needs of th~ inshore and nearshore fishery then, Mr. Speaker, and only then and not before then should we look at the. possibility of an offshore effort regarding these Northern cod stocks. And then if and only if it can be caught without adversely affecting the inshore and nearshore fishery. Now, Mr.

Speaker, what can be a more reasonable and a more sensible statement of policy than.what I just uttered here today regarding the protection and encouragement and fostering and development of our inshore and nearshore fishery. I ask my colleagues on this side of the House, is there any way they can disagree with what I have said here today concerning the protection of the inshore and nearshore fishery which is, I believe, one of the prongs or one of the arrows I should say, one of the economic arrows which will lead I hope to the economic salvation of this Province . Mr.

Speaker, there is another very important point which will be made on Wednesday if I have an opportunity to speak on the Nordsee fishery, that the inshore fishery, Mr. Speaker, is much more labour intensive than the offshore fishery and that more men are involved in the catching of these fish, more men and less capital has to be employed and it is at least as efficient and perhaps more efficient; the inshore fishery and the nearshore fishery . 9701.

• • • • • • • • • • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4210 IB-2 MR. HICKMAN: (Inaudible). MR. W. ROWE: ~Jhat point is the hon. member sa.yi ng. am saying that when we get the inshore and nearshore fishery fully developed with enough capacity and with enough facilities and with the utilization of the technology that we have including this new development now from the Government of Canada, this ice tank and these things, Mr . Speaker, other things like that, other things that have to be done, I am saying that the inshore and nearshore fishery-even now it can compete successfully with an·offshore effort in the Northern cod stock.

Remember what we are talking about now. We are talking about ICNAF are which is described as the Northern cod stock from Cape Chidley down to the tip of the Avalon Peninsula. We are not talking about the South Coast. MR. HICKMAN: There is no question that the efficiency of the offshore effort on the South Coast is by far the best we have had. MR. W. ROWE: I do not know. The minister can say that but I. do not know what the point is.

The point I am making, Sir, is that the inshore and nearshore fishery on the Northeast Coast compares inefficiency with an offshore effort on the Northeast Coast and, Sir, employs far more men in doing so. That is the point I am making. MR. F. ROWE: Hith less capital. MR. ·w: ROWE: And with less capital input necessary and with more men employed in the catching of the fish.

Now therefore, Sir, if we have an option and we have to make a choice or a decision we have to opt for the inshore fishery and the nearshore fishery on those grounds alone. But that is not the only ground. There are other cultural, social, traditional, historical reasons whey we in this Provi nee have to stand four square behind the encouragement and the development of the inshore and nearshore fishery on the Northeast Coast in this Province. MR. F. ROWE: Hear, hear! MR. W. ROWE: Even if it was somewhat less economically efficient and viable tha~ the offshore fishery using gigantic trawlers with fewer 9702

• • • • • • • • • • • June 9. 1978 Tape 4210 IB-3 MR. W. ROWE: men. I mean that is a reasonable point too, is it not? Nothing wrong with that? MR; HICKMAN: I am not saying it is not a reasonable point but every mention that has been made in this House and I am sure the hon. far Burin-Placentia (Mr. Canning) agrees with me, everybody glosses over the South Coast fishery. have never heard it debated in this House since 1966 • 9703

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 9, 1978, Tape 4211, Page 1 -- apb SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. F.B.ROWE: Yes, I mean, that is quite a - MR. HICKMAN: It is a real knowledgeable debate. on the offshore fisheries. MR. NOLAN: (Inaudible) today either, on that side. MR. HICKMAN: We should - MR. NOLAN: Why do you not get the Leader of the Opposition (Inaudible) surplus that he asked for months ago? Is the Minister of Finance still (inaudible)? MR. HICKMAN: I gave it - the hon. member for s·t. John's East tabled it two weeks ago. MR. W.N .ROWE: I did not mean to use up ninety, I Mr.

Speaker, but I got sidetracked by the Minister of Fisheries and so on and I cut into more time than I intended. Let me try to clue it up rather quickly. Something I commend, Mr. Speaker, to all members of the House, if they have not seen it, you can get if from the Department of Fisheries as well, but if any member would not mind looking up the February edition of the Union Forum, which is the magazine,the periodical put out by the union, the Fishermen's Union, they will see on the back a graph called the Northern cod stocks which shows, Mr.

Speaker, by means of columns, it shows the Canadian catch and the foreign catch since 1970. You can see, Mr. Speaker·, what was going on there. Look, way over 500,000 metric tons by the Canadian and foreign catch alone,· back in 1970 and that gradually .diminished year, by year, by year, by year because of the depletion of the stocks. It got down tb 1978, this year, Mr. Speaker, where we are at the 135,000 metric ton level that I talked about with the Canadian catch, I believe for the first time, larger than the foreign allocation. Yes, it would be. Then, of course, the succeeding years are not 9704

• • • • • • • • • • • June 9, 1978, Tape 4211, Page 2 -- apb MR. li.N.ROWE: allocated because that depends on what happens on the year to year basis . But there is a line going across there, Sir, which shows 1955,inshore catch 167,000 metric tons. And it shows us below that there now, obviously, because we are not catching that much and it shows; with management, correct management and so on, the catch gradn.ally going up again. What I am saying, Mr.

Speaker, to sum·up my point is that before we give away any perceived surplus which may not in fact be a surplus, I do not think there is, let us make sure that the cod stocks in that area respond and carry on and grow and that the natural level of the·inshore and near­ sh9re fishery is reached over the next number of years, reaches a peak then levels off and gradually grows again in a sort of a gradually sloping plateau, Mr .. Speaker.

Let us reach that point and make sure that we have the resources and that there is a genuine surplus left before we talk in terms of giving away some mythical surplus to either domestic or foreign fishing fleets of trawlers. Let us make sure that our inshore fishermen are protected, Mr. Speaker, because that is where the future on the North­ east coast of this Province is. I will get into a few other matters, Sir, when we come to debate the Nordsee proposal which I think will be on Wednesday. But let me conclude with these few remarks, Mr. Speaker . MR. HICKMAN: What was the name of that book you had there? MR.

PECKFORD: That was the Union Forum. MR. W.N.ROWE: That was the Union Forum, yes • It just happens to ·have that on the back of it. You can get it from the Department of Fisheries as well. It is for February of 1978. There are some excellent comments contained in that. It is one of the great periosicals of 9705

• • • • • • • • • •• • June 9, 1978, Tape 4211, Page 3 -- apb MR. W. N . ROWE : Forum • MR. PECI<FORD: MR. W.N.ROWE: expressed there. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. W.N.ROWE: this Province, the Union (Inaudible) Facts and opl.nions, Mr. Speaker, Well prepared. Yes, that is right. Well written, Sir, and what is good about it I find, is that he is dealing with fishermen, rough and ready fishermen, men who spend their lives in the boats, Sir, or on the stages and so on. And the writing, Sir, is at a high, a very high intellectual level, there is no talking down to anybody in this writing.

That is .what I find so good, Sir about this periodical, no talking down, no condescension, no patronizing. AN HON. MEMBER: No socialism. MR. W.N.ROWE: Yes, a little bit further in that centre in many respects than I would 9are to go . AN HON. MEMBER: MR. W.N.ROWE: Heavy peaks of socialism. Yes, a few. But the facts and the figures 'and opinions are expressed in. an excellent, a forthright manner, Mr. Speaker, and you can agree or you ~an disagree with it, but at least you know where this magazine stands. There is no doubt about that, you know where. · AN HON. MEMBER: That is right.

One of the issues was Tory blue. MR. W :N .ROWE: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. WHITE: red. MR. W.N.ROWE: This may be this one here, is it? Yes·. That one you had there was pretty This one here is Liberal red. What is the NDP colour anyway? AN HON. MEMBER: Green. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. W.N.ROWE: They are green. Very green. Mr. Speaker, let me conclude. 9706

• • • • • • • ·- • • • • June 9, 1978, Tape 4211, Page 4 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWE: AN HON. MEMBER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. W.N.ROWE: Very green in name and - Order! Sorry! Sorry! Let me conclude my few rearnrks, Sir, by saying this, let us not as a House or as a government use the possibility of .the 9707

• • • • • • • •• • • • • Ju:1e 9, 1978 T:1pe No. 4212 Cl-1 - 1 ~·~.. H. ~1. P.OHE : renegotiat~on of tariffs in the United StAtes t·lhich may be going on ~o", tchich has been pushed by Teddy Ken:tedy and t!'!e ?eorle in :·!assatutes trying to raise the U.S.A. tariffs to account for t·lhat they have discovered to be a subsidy by the Canadian government of the fishing industry in Canada. Let us not use that probable regotiation U!'H<'.rd of the tariffs, !!r.

Speaker, as an excuse to sell out the inshore and nears~ore fisher; of t~is province by saying by entering into the Nordsee _proposal we can open up ourselves to new European markets, let us not do that Sir. That ~1ould be a complete .and utter sellout, it ~~auld be trrong, it trould be proceeding on a premice that does not exist: ;~e do not have to sell out to l·lordsae or any other foreign company in order to get access to raarkets in Europe. It is irrelevant Hr. Speaker, it is a read :1earing of the ~rorst ·or<.ler aud it should be stated as such. 'We do aot ;1ave to do it.

The markets are either t:1cre or th-~y are not tJ.ter~ and t~1e utilization or the 6ranti11g of licences· to five olu tra1vlers to fish offs:1ore iu· the northern cod .stocks is irrelevant to eatry iuto th&t market .and I ask my friends ,.;:lo have Jane research in. this subject to confir:n that. !t is irrel~vant :-!r. S?eaker and anyone who is thinldng <1bout it and reading about it: kno~1s tl<at it 'is irrelevant. It is not nec­ essary for us to sell out to a foreiga interest 1:1 order for us to gain marl;;ets in Europe or elsaHhere. As a matter of fact sir the 1~ay things are done ~;e can gain the markets.

T:1ere tJas .:. cro,1d over here in January, I believe, they came over fro!:! '.Jest Germany looking for fish. The only problem they had a:1C: I believe ,my frie:1d, c:1e member for Le•disporte district (Hr. V.'hite) may make this point Hhe~ ;le speal:s in the Nordsee 9708

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 9, 19i3 Tape :1o. 4212 C\</ - 2 takeover debate, the only problem bey ·had is that they were a little bit worried about assured supply and it may be true that if t!"ley got these five trm-1lers over i1ere fishing that they .voul~ have ,, more assured supply then if they are depending on other people. That is not something that is beyond the uit. of man, if that cannot be lool;ed .:lfter and if \·Te ·cannot assure our markets in Europe good qual!ty and a.• assured 3upply ~[r. Speaker, ,,hat are '-'e doing in it at all? Th.at is a problem that can be looked after. l':r.

Speaker, I do not like, as a public figure in this province, any attempt or I \VOUld say lmv opportunistic attempt, ~~r. Speaker, to con­ fuse the dispute bet1-1een Canada and the United States, 1~hich is presently going on, on purely territorial durastiction grounds, it does not even effect t!1is p:-ovince because He are not involved in these disputes·with the U.S.A.

To confuse t:1at dispute, that territorial dispute, a dispute regardir.g :erritorial juristiction sir, to confuse that and the need to get a tre<:~ty to solve that problem, to confuse that area on the one hand ~ith efforts by /~erican politicians to raise tariffs en fish im~orted from r.anada into the United :.tates. THo different and distinct issues ~!r.

Speaker and to see .John Crosbie up in Otta11a trying to muddy the Haters in that ree;ard, trying to i1aul a rer,d hearing right acr.oas that is to my nind sir, a little bit politically O?portunistic and serves only to· confuse the issues and confuse people Hho are tryir.g to genuinely think about. these problems <>.nd come up Pith solutions. 11r.

Speaker, lat me close 'Tery briefly by saying let us protect the inshore nearshore fishery, let us make sure that l:·E' fore l·~e talk in tet'!!ls of a!ly surpluses in the offshor: effort in the northern cod stock, there is a surrlus and it is my vie,.; thnt there Hill not be a surplus until suc1.1 ti!!le 9709

• • • • • • • • •• e • • • • June '!, 1978 · Tape :-:o. 4212 cw - 3 ,.,hen He are sure, in the next four, f:!.ve, or six ~·ears, maybe more, that the inshore nearshore fishery !1as reached its natural peak and :1as leveled off. H:·.~n •.-re arc sure that they are ?rotectecl., tha.t .they have thei-:: resourc<= that can be allocated let us t!~en 3et i!l.to the offshcre effort ·~c'ld !-!r. S~eaker,· let us q~it; !ticking out at Ottavra for purely ?Olitical poi:1ts.

Let us negotiate 'Nit!'! them, talk •·•ith them, :?ress our •rie~-rs on them !lecause ·they may be urong as often as they are right-from the ~oint of view of our ~rovince, let us sho~v the leadership ·in this province ~•ith regard to our fisher~·, not the ~•est coast of Can·ada fishery, our fishery, the :.Telvfouridland and Labrador Fishery . 9710

• • • • • • ., - • • • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4213 IB-1 MR. \~. ROWE: Let us not use tariff problems. between Canada and the Uriited States or jurisdictional problems between Canada and the United States as a red herring to try to effect a sellout of our best interests to a foreign interest regarding the Northern cod stocks or less us protect the fishery, the inshore and nearshore fishery on which the future of this Province depends. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Ferryland. Sot1E . Hotl. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker; I am going to be peaceful today so I am watching hoping that nothing I say becomes overly controversial that we get involved in all points of orders and things. Before I begin my few remarks which will be to a large degree district remarks I think I should congratulate the Leader of the Opposition for getting involved in a true and serious debate which I know will come up on Wednesdays fro"m now on, the Nord see debate which we may not have time to discuss in full. But certainly the Leader of the Opposition's remarks at least he deals with some very serious. issues within the Province.

Although it is within the Opposition folds to discuss scandal and to bring out government misuse and abuse of funds if there are some-that is certainly part of their responsibility - it is also part of their responsibility to express some very serious debate on serious issues which face our Province and certainly the fishery at least from my point of view representing an inshore fishing district for the most part, I was very much delighted with the Opposition.

I do not agree with many of the things he said but I am at least delighted 1~ith the fact that he has taken some serious debate into this House which is where it should be. And I will say even though I do not agree I certainly agree with that fact that that is what should be done. Mr. Speaker, before I get into the district part of my speech I have been a little bit discouraged as of late with the 9711

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 9, 1978 Tape 4213 IB-2 MR. POWER: rather doomy and gloomy,atmosphere that has been taking place in our Province and in our country for that matter not caused by any group. I certainly am not here to lay blame on anybody opposite, anybody within the community as such or anybody on our side or even in Ottawa for that matter. I am just saying that in this country in which we live it seems that we are losing track of what we should be doing.

I really feel sorry sometimes for some. of the young students who come to our light, the Springdale group who were here this morning and some gr.oups from my district and others who come to our ga.lleries sometimes and hear both from this side of othe House and the other side the very sorry and sad state of our world, of our economy here. in Newfoundland, of the things which relate to us most.

And although I am realistic enough to know that we do have very serious problems of unemployment, education, we have serious problems with roads in many districts, we have'serious problems with.mining and with our forestry industry, the spruce budworm - certainly they are very, very serious problems, problems which our government is trying "to deal with as best we can.· Maybe not successfully in some cases but at least trying as best it can which is all you can expect from any human being.

And just feel sorry for some of those young students some days because am sure they leave this House with a pessimistic view of what is going to take place in our Province. Certainly if there is one thing that a young .person in Newfoundland should not be burdened with or saddened with is a pessimistic outlook of our future. I honestly do not believe that there is a better of this world to live in, a part of the world where there is great