PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 19 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, MARCH 6,1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

JW ;.!arch 6, 1970 Tape f/ 241 Page The House met at 3 P.H. MR. SPEAKER: Oraer! HON. J. R. SMALLl.JOOD (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I would like to have the indulgence of the House - HR. SPEAKER: Order please - the hon. member for Humber East was on his feet on a Point of Privilege. The hon. member for Humber East was on his feet and he had the recognition of the Chair before the hon. Premier stood, I am.sorry. MR. SMALL'NOOD: }!r.

Speaker, I would like to announce the lamentable news to the House of the death two or three hours ago of the most distinguished · lady, the most distinguished Newfoundland woman I suppose we have had for many many years in Newfoundland, in the person of Nrs. }!arie Penney of Ramea. is Hrs. Penney was a most distinguished lady, her name/knm.m not on'ly in Newfoundland, but in the whole of Canada. She ~~as president of the Fisheries Council of Canada. She had the distinguished honour of being invited to meet the Queen in that capacity as one of Canada's most distinguished women.

She was the president of John Penney & Sons Limited of Ramea, and she was therefore one of the most important operators in the Fish industry of Canada, and especially of Newfoundl2nd. She was taken suddenly ill with heart failure just a .reek or more ago in Ramea. They rushed her off to Boston where she passed away just a few hours ago today. Hrs. Penney was a cousin by marriage of the Ron. · the Minister of Provincial Affairs.

She was godmother to the Hon. the ~linister of Mines, Agriculture & Resources, and a dear friend of mine - I think perhaps when I met her last, it was at the opening of the big Reduction Plant of her 'daughter and son-in-law at Burgeo a fet~ weeks ago, and she urged me then to come and spend a week-end with her at her home in Ramea. I promised I would do it the first chance I would get, if I ever got one - and I suppose it was the last invitation she ever extended to anyone - she sent to me by telegram just a few days ago, I think the day before she was stricken.

And she repeated that telegram sent me t o, urging me to come up and relax and spend a short holiday with her. I feel sure that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition ~~ ill 1/ish to join ~Jith me in this exnression of the sorroH of the House and the Province, I am sure that the two hon. Hinisters to tJhom I have referred will wish similarly to express their feeling, and there may be other members of the House, at the

... March 6, 1970 Tape #241 Page 2 end of which I would suggest, unusual as it may be, she not having been ever a member of this House, that we .should stand for a moment of silent tribute. Yes, the hon. the Minist~r of Fisheries '~as the General Manager of the very plant of which she is now, until today - the president and these hon. }!inisters may indeed wish to express a word on her lamentable passing. MR. A. J. MURPHY (Leader of the Opposition): Now Hr.

Soeaker, I am sure that it is a matter of great regret, . ·- the passing of this wonderful Newfoundland lady, a very courageous lady who carried on a tremendous fish plant there in Ramea, provided employment for nearly everybody in that area. And I can only join, I did not have the great luck or great pleasure to knm·7 this wonderful lady. But I am sure that the Premier has spoken with his knowledge of her, and the wonderful work she has done in Ramea, and I can join Hr.

Speaker, quite sincerely, quite honestly, in expressing the regrets, not only of this side of the House, but join with the Premier in extending the regrets and sympathy of all of us in the passing of this great Ne,,•foundland lady. said And I am sure, as the Premier~ there are many people in this House, and I look at the llon. the l1inister of Fisheries ,.;ho perhaps has been workin!l; very closely with the lady can do a more effective tribute than myself. MR. J. C. CROSBIE: !1r.

Speaker, I would like to associate myself with the tribute paid by the han. the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition to the late ~Irs. Penney. She was a great pioneer '~oman in the fishing industry of Newfoundland. Her husband was the late Senator Penney, who died shortly after he was appointed to the Senate in 1949 - she was a fine example of a Newfoundland business Homan, and we do not have very many - have very few really, who have reached tne executive ranks in Newfoundland business life, who are ladies.

She is a real South Coaster, did much for the area of Ramea, and the South Coast, ·and we would like to associate ourselves 1.;ith the Premier's tribute and extend our sympathy to Mrs. Spencer Lake and other members of the family. RON. G. A. FRECKER (Hinister of Provincial Affairs): Hr. Speaker, I Hould say that Mrs. Penney was one of the most modern '~omen that ,.;e had living in Newfoundland, but yet she was a link with Newfoundland's past. l~e heard the hon. member for Fortune a few days ago in this House speak about the role of the fish merchants of Newfoundland traditionally. I think Mrs.

Penney epitomized in her person the best of that old tradition, along IJith being thoroughly modern - modern to the point of being reco~ized by the Fishing

I. ~larch 6, 1970 Tape /1241 Page 3 Industry of Canada as the hon. the Premier has pointed out, and sufficiently modern to become the president of the Fisheries Council of Canada. I had the very great pleasure of spending nearly two weeks in Ramea a few years ago with my son-in-law, and I can say as the Premier, you did indeed miss a tremendous experience in not sharing the hospitality of the"Four Hinds" l</ell I should like to add my t~ords of deep sympathy to those already expressed Mr. Speaker. ~. H.R.V. EARLE: Hr.

Speaker, I do not wish to prolong this, but.! think it woUld be very greatly amiss if I did not as a representative from the South Coast of this Province, and also as a friend and a close acquaintance of the late Mrs. Penney · support all that has been said about her. She was doubtlessly a pioneer in the true sense of the word in the difficult days of the fish business about t~hich I sooke the other evening, and for which many of the merchant class of the country were severely criticized - I do not think any criticism of any nature could be aimed at that lady.

She depicted in herself and in her behaviour all of the best aspects of the leaders in the industry, Hhich as I say, was of the most difficult and trying nature throughout the early part of her years. The South Coast of Newfoundland in particular, and in fact all of the fishing industry in Ne1~foundland owes a great deal to Nrs. Penney, not only was she oror.tinent in local affairs in fisheries, but she took her place with the Fisheries Council of Canada _, and other bodies, and was most helpful in the decisions affecting the fish business. I wotlld like to go on record as expressing deep svmnathy at her loss.

HON. AlDEN ~IALONEY (M"inister of Fisheries): Mr. Speaker, I feel it to he my duty on two accounts to support the eloquent tributes that have heen paid to Urs. Penney, the late Mrs. Penney - here in the House this aftern"oon. One in that I am Minister of Fisheries, and two (hut not necessarily in that order) that I had the rare good fortune of being closely associated with her, and her late husband for almost fifteen years. As the hon. the Premier said I 1~orked with that firm for a number of years, and was the l-!anaging Director of the firm up until 1957. ~I rs.

Penney had two qualities that I admired very much. I was able to admire them close at hand. These qualities were the quality of leadershio, and the quality of courage. These she demonstrated to j{)Y<f

JW Harch 6, 1970 Tape {1241 Page 4 me very well in 1949 when her husband died quite suddenly. He had .iust been appointed to the Senate ~he was one of the first Sena~ors after Confederation, and died in Ottawa something over two months after he was appointed. My personal advice to Mrs.

Penney at that time as an advisor in the Company was that since it was just herself and one daughter, that perhaps she should not consider carrying on the vast business on the South Coast of Newfoundland, but that she should perhaps take it easy in some part of the P-rovince or in Canada and devest herself of the great worry and responsibility. Hell she did not take my advice, and her farsightedness and her courage and her leadership have certainly justified the stand that she too~ at that time.

That business is today flourishing and a great manv Ne1~foundlanders in that part of the Island are gainfully employed . with her. Now apart from these qualities, Mr. Speaker, Nrs. Penney is as >1ell kno<m to a great many members •in this hon. House, and to a great many Newfoundlanders, was a very charming and gracious person, and her hospitality is a legend to many Newfoundlanders, many Canadians - in fact from people all over the world. She has had the high and low - The late Governor-General of Canada, l!r. Hassey was a guest at Ramea - and her, as I say, her guest list ran from the high to the humble.

I mourn her loss, and as do my family - as a great personal loss - And I do not know - the Premier suggested that in some way that this House would recognize her passing- she herself, as the Premier said was not a person of state, but she is the widow of the late Senator Penney, who •~as one of the first Senators from Ne<vfoundland, and i.n the appropriate way, I would support the Premier's suggestion that the House tn the appropriate way make a suitable acknowled)1;ement of the tributes that have been paid this evening. HON. W. R. CALLAHAN (Minister of Hines, Agriculture & Resources): Mr.

Speaker, there is not very much left to be added to what has been said about the late Harie Smart Penney, who was my godmother - childhood friend of my mother 1 ,, and prior to a period in which my hen. colleague, the Hinister of Fisheries 1vas Managing Director of that firm - my own uncle, my mother's brother, held that position for a number of years. So I know something of the back~;round of the firm, the difficulties it encountered - o f the courage of the late Senator Penney, who was a very ill man for many years. And I might say that that firm

- -------·------ March 6, 1970 Tape 11241 Page 5 indeed Sir was one of the pioneers, one of the two I seem to recall, pioneers, in what is the major sector of our fishing industry today, namely the Frozen Fish industry. I know of the courage of Senator Penney, and as my hon. colleague has just said, the courage of his widm• - when it came to her to follow on that business. I know something too Sir, of her warmth, of her charity - of her interest in the affairs of the Province.

Shortly after I came into the Government, she came to .see me in respect of matte~s concerning the South !Vest Coast, economic and otherwise, and He spent some hours discussing these matters. And I knmv that her interest Has not confined to the business 'she headed, or to the community of Rarnea, which thanks to her, and to her late husband - was one of the bright spots, the really bright suots on the South Hest Coast particularly for a number of years when the urosperity of other ' parts of the Coast \-l'as not quite at that hip:h level.

I think as has been suggested in view of the fact that the late Marie Smart Penney was the wife and the widow of a Canadian Parliamentarian representing this Province, that it.is certainly appropriate that this House duly remark her nassing. MR. HALTER HODDER: Hr. Speaker, I uould like also to join ~lith the other members in this expression of sympathy to the family of the late Mrs. Penney. She was well kno\.m to everybody on the South Coast, she was probably the best known lady in N6'rth America. She is a part of Ramea, and anybody \<ho ever visited there al\vays partook of her hospitality.

I shall never ce able to repay her for the hosPitality given to me. Mrs. Penney was a lady, who did a man-sized job, and did it \,,ell. Her passing is a great loss, not only to Ramea, but to the '"hole of Newfoundland. MR. A. HOfu~EU.: Mr. Speaker, I would like to associate my self Sir, with the expressions of sympathy of my other colleagues here this evening. The only interest I had in Ramea was perhaps business interests, business contacts, but whenever I visited Ramea, I al1vays found that ~lrs.

Penney and her late husband Senator Penney accorded me the kindest welcome, and I am sure as other hon. members have said, the hospitality which was always found available in the Penney home will be certainly greatly missed. Now Sir I also wish to associate myself with the expressions of condolence of my other hon. colleagues because the firm of which Mrs. Penney was the head, had certain ramifications, which covered parts of Hermitage district. Francois, Rencontre \Jest, and Parson's Harbour- all had branches of John Penney & Sons Limited. And every

- - --- --- -·- ·-·-. .m }larch 6, 1970 Tape /1241 Pa)!;e 6 · man, every fisherman, who had dealings with the firm John Penney & Sons Limited, I feel . sure found Mrs. Penney to be a NOnderful friend. It is not given to many Mr. Speaker, to many ladies that is, tot~eside over such an enterprise as John Penney & Sons Limited, and I am sure that Mrs. Penney's influence will be sadly missed on the South Coast. RON. P. J. LEWIS (Minister without Portfolio): Hr. Speaker, I had the very distinguished privilege and pleasure over the years of knowing rather intimately ~Irs. Penney and her immediate family.

I too had reason to kno~1 what a contribution she made in many areas of influence to the great South West Coast. I can think Sir of her loss to Ramca and its people. It is inestimable and irreparable. The last time I had the privilege of seeing (:.1'·,;,~ Mrs. Penney in her domain, Ramea,~~~hen we visited there as a )!;roup, the members of the Transportation Commission, when we were making a tour of the South h'est Coast. And although that was not the first time that I had the privilege of being a guest at Mrs.

Penney's beautiful home, what we experienced then, was merely a renlica of ~~hat had hapnened through the vears since she took over Ramea. Mrs. Penney, to my way of thinking, in my humble view was a queen in her own right. She •1as a queen in the sense that she had the love of her people, the people of Ramea - very close to her heart. And that love and regard, which ~•as exemplified by ~Irs. Penney, both in commercial life and in other paths of life, was reciprocated one hundred percent.

I can think of no loss so )!;reat to these people, livin)!; as they are in comnarative isolation, on a group of rocks off the South Coast of Ne~~foundland, as to have lost as they have today in Hrs. Penney, that core of affection and unselfish rep;ard, for every man tvoman and child who have had the privilege of living there t~ith her, and also residing under her influence. Hhat happened in Ramea durin)!; the years, not alone of ~rs.

Penney, but of the Penney re)!;ime, tvas a benevolent type of feudalism - feudalism in the most charitable, considered in the most charitable sense - and she centralized in herself the deep regard and oersonal concern for every man, woman and child on that rocky coast. I therefore, Sir, am mor~ than nleased to associate mvself the ~[otion of the Premier, supported hy the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, and the other members of this House - there is no tribute in my ooinion, could be too

JW Harch 6, 1970 Tape li241 Page 7 .· great to be 1'aid to the memory of such a Homan as 1-!rs. Penney, who has made such a contribution to this Province, to its commercial activity, and particularly to the people with whom she resided and spent so many years. HR. T. ALEX HICKHAN: Hr. Speaker, representing as I do the grand fishing district of Burin} I would like also to join with other hon. members in expressing my sympathy to the Penney family over their very grievious loss.

The firm of John Penney & Sons has been associated .-with the deep-sea fishery on the South Coast for many many generations. lfuen I was a small boy growing up in Grand Bank, in the '30's I can recall the Penney fleet corning in to Grand Bank, the sailing fleet, with salt bulk fish- the fall catch and the Spring catch, for transshippment to Greece. Hy personal association, or the association of - my family goes back much further than that.

But I am told, I do not remember this, that the Penney firm used to outfit my grandfather Hickman, lvho Has a banking skipper out of Grand Bank, and indeed he Has lost with all hands coming back from Halifax to Rarnea IVith a load of supplies for the Penney's, long before I was born. I believe, I am not certain of this, but I believe that the Penney family had some deep roots in Grand Bank, and that for some time, some of them lived in that tow-n. But be that as it may, we Hatched on the South Coast, the development of the Frozen Fish industry, pioneered by the Penneys and others along the South Coast.

And I have no hesitancy in saying that the late Mrs. Penney did a great deal to convince the people of the South Coast and if the dee? sea fishermen, that if we 1o1ere going to - they Here going to maintain their place in the sun it was in the Frozen Fish industry, and as one of the great pioneers in that industry and one of the great leaders, she did much to place the South Coast in a position that it finds itself in today - one of ~pr,ecedented prosperity and unprecedented production. I too would like to associate myself 1o1ith the exj)ressions of sympathy that have been made today by other hon. members. HR.

SPEAKER: I would ask the members of the House to rise.

r--- _._ lL~rch 6th. 1970 Tape 242 PK - 1 - · '<7' HR. CLYDE ~iELLS : I rise Sir on a Point of Privilege, to correct a mis:;;tatement · contained in today's Evening Telegram, also contained in today's Daily News, statements and subhead lines that indicate, that I alone refused consent to allaH to the hon. the }linister of Health/speak beyond his allotted ninety minutes last night. The truth is, Sir, I think -.that . all but mayb~ one or two hon. members on this side refused consent. The hon. member for St. John's West, the member for St.

Barbe South, the member for Burin, the member for Fortune Bay, the member for Gander, and I \~auld like this corrected. This impression is totally incorrect. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS HON. J. R. SHALL HOOD (PREHIER): Mr. Speaker, Question No. 36 on the 9rder Paper of February, 23rd., in the name of the han. the member for Gander.

(1) None.

(2) None.

(3) None.

(4) Fire Insurance Policies are held by the trustees, the ~oyal Trust Company. The major broker is A.E. Hhitehead Limited of !1ontreal, and R.C. Anthony Insurance of St. John's is the local agent.

(5) The Govern~r.e:tt hold a first and a second mortgage on the property., Question No. 61 - HR. JOHN CROSBIE: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary question in connection with the answer to that question - Does the han. the Premier mean that there is no direct loan from the Government to the Paragon Hotel Limited? There is a Government guaranteed loan is that the situation, Hr. Speaker? HR. SHALLI-IOOD: The answer is as I gave it, Hr. Speaker. None. The ans,;er to on the question that is asked me is, none. I \Vould need notice of question(any further information. }IR·. CROSBIE: --- --- Hr.

Speaker, my supplementary question~1s that a guaranteed loan? }!R. SP.ALLHOOD: I "auld take that as notice of question? I have ans~; cred the questions on the order paper. If the hon. gentleman wants to table another ~ · que.;:tion, I "ill be glad to answer it. HR. CROSBIE: 1bis question did not say, a direct loan, it just said loan. HR. SHALLHOOD: I answered the question. I did not write the question. I merely answered it, as it is 'rritten. I did not '~rite it. I do not \•Trite any of these questions. I merely answer those that are addressed to me. And I am not responsible for the way they are t·JOrded.

Question No. 61 on the Order Paper of February 25th. and t here are several on the Order Paper of that same date. Question No. 61 in the name of the hon. the member for St. John's \vest.

(1) No.

(2) No. (3),(4),

(5) Therefore do not arise.

~larch 6~h. 1970 Tape 242 PK- 2 HR. CROSBIE: A question, Mr. Speaker. Is it a fact than that there is no Government guarantee in connection '~ith Sea ~lining Corporation Limited at all? MR. SHALLWOOD: Nr. Speaker, I have anst•ered the question, as it is worded. If the han. gentleman wants to submit another question I ~dll attempt to answer it. Question No. 64 - MR. CROSBIE: No guarantee of anything,there. ~ffi. S~~LWOOD: I have answered the question, as the question is worded and I did not'word it; the han. gentleman presumably worded it, or he got someone to word it for him. But, I did not ~vord it.

I am answering the question as it is worded. }ffi. CROSBIE: Okay, there is another one. MR. SHALLI-IOOD: Question No. 64 in the name of the hon. member for St. John's West,

(1) None.

(2) I have a feeling, I have already given, maybe I only remarked it in my speech or something, but I am sure I have given the House the information to the second part of this question, ''hich is that the wood from Labrador, we think no,~, •muld be cheaper landed in Come-by-Chance, then the o;;oood cut on this Island and brought to Come-by-Chance, thanks to the de!!:onstration given by Hr. Doyle and his company at Lake ~fel ville. Question No. 65 on the Order Paper of the 25th. again, the in name of the han. member for St. John's West,

(1) No. (2) $55,603.70. Question No. 66 in the name of the hon. the member for St. John's l,.]est,

(1) No.

(2) I do not know, the date is unknown to me. (3) $23, 735.42. I suspect to that the report is pretty closejbeing ready for submission, but I do not know the date of it. HR. CROSBIE: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary question - Part (2) of the question is, m1en does the commissioner expect to make his final report? MR. SMALLWOOD: I said, that date is unknown to me. NR. CROSBIE: lvell, in otherwords the commissioner was not contacted. }ffi. SMALLHOOD: The Commissioner was contacted. }ffi. CROSBIE: And he would not say. MR. SMALLWOOD: The date is still unknown to me.

The date that the commissioner thinks he will submit it, is unknmm to me. And for a very good reason, he does not know himself. It is fairly a substantial reason. }ffi. CROSBIE: He does not know. Question No. 69 on the erder Paper of the 25th. the same date, in the name of the hon. and inquisitive men:ber of St. John's \{est. (1) $8,550,000.00, exactly !CJ fid

Har~:;h 6, 19 70 Tape 242 PK-3 $8,550,000.00 _ ,

(2) Nil,

(3) No. Question No.73, on the Order Paper of February 25, in the name of the hon. member for St John's West. The a~swer is that there are three ·persons, a committee of three persons, with one vacancy; the vacancy being created by the resignation .of Hr. Groom. There is no Chairman. The vacancy has not as yet been filled.

(2) October 1, 1967 and June 30, 1969. (3)" Is voluntarily.

(4) No· l1R CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, a su~plementary question, in connection with part (1) of that question. \Vhat persons now comprise this committee? That was asked and the hon. the Premier has not answered. Hho are the two members now on the committee? There is one va~ancy. MR. SHALLHLlOD: Hr. Leo Stead and Hr. Hilliam Wismer, representing the company. Nr. Speaker, question No. 117 on the Order Paper of !·larch 2nd. , in the name of the han. the member for Humber East.

(1) None.

(2) Is on a long list I will table.

(3) Three dollars to six dollars, depending on location and or the services rendered.

(4) Six dollars. liON . IITLL IA!'I J. KEOl!_GH. ( lfiNISTER OF LABOUR) : Question No. 150 on the Order Paper of March 5th., standing in the name of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Does the Horkmens Compensation Board review and possibly increase compensation to disabled or partically disabled workers, when age combined with disability, makes retraining impossible and eliminates · the possibility of future · employment? In paretically all cases the ~10rkman has reached maximum recovery before his permanent partical disability rating is set.

If however, at the time of setting the P.P.D. ratings it appears that there could be a ~~orsening, special provision is made to have the ~1orkman re-examined as often as may~e necessary until the condition is seen to be static or recovery is at its ITaximum. If at any time medical evidence indicate that a permanent condition has·' 1wrsen:lbecause of the original injury, the case is reviewed. Nany such revie1~s have been made, in most cases no change has been found. In some cases, however, upward revisions even thour,h not substantial have been made.

Any relevant factors such as age, and retrnin~bi~ity; is ~ coua±dered at~the time . the award is made. In the case of totally disability the percentage is, of course, one hundred per-cent and does not allm~ of any further reviews. Question No. 182 on tcday's Order Paper, standing in the name of the han. the member for St. John's West. Has the Government authorized any person to prepare a history of a Labour Hovcment in Nev1foundland, and if so, who was the person so authorized? And on what date ~ the said work commence, and when is it anticipated that the said history will be completed?

Answer - yes. 1~e Institute /OY/ --· -- ------:;:- .,

-~ch 6th. 1970 Tape 242 Pk - 4 · ~ .· --elf Social ·and Economic Research of Memorial University of Newfoundland, who assigned -·r ·- - --- PT9fessor -Ralph G. Hattenhauer to direct the project. Beginning date April 1967, completion date, April 1971.

(2) Hhat has been the cost to date, if any1 Answer, $11 .. 900.00. Question No. 185 on today's Order Paper again standing in the name of the member for St. John's West. In connection with the space rented by the Workmens Compensation Board of Newfoundland and Labrador, in that building known as Philip Place on Elizabeth Avenue. ~ -Has the said Workmens Compensation Board had to expend any monies of its own in connection with occupying the space rented, and if so, what is the amount of such expenditure to date, and for what purposes have the said monies been expended?

Answer, Yes, the following monies have been expended to date. General contract construction of offices, washrooms, vault space etc. $41,968.00. Architectural fee $7,776,42. Drapes and installation of same, $1,100.00. Moving of office furniture etc. $752.00, Total $51,596.42. (2) ..... - ~ -

.. _,,..~ .......... J1J M"arch 6, 1970 Tape i!243 Page l HR. KF.OUGH: part of the question - in addition to the rental to be paid by the \o/ork171en 1 s Compensation Board for space ·leased l.n the building knovm as Philip Place - does the said Board have to pay any additional compQnsation for parking space, or any other purpose in connection with the said space rented. And if so what is the amount of the additional pa)~ents required and .1 for what specific facilities or service/ Ans~ver: The Board has entered into an agreement to rent a maximum of t"'enty parking spaces at a total monthly rental of $200. HR.

HICKHAN: Hill the Han. }Unister permit a supplementary question? The architects 1 fees of $7,776 - \·ras this for work services performed simoly in the offices- putting up the office partitions, planning the office partition? This was just to cover the renovations carried out through the 1•:orkmen' s Compensation Board, and the name of the architect? HR. KEOUGH: Nr. Speaker, if I attempted to give an ans"er to that question, I would be speaking ''off the cuff" and I •,rould not knmv the correct answer. I will take notice and give the ans1ver subseauently. Hl'l'~l. F. H. R0HE (~!inister of Education): Nr.

Sneaker, on the Order Paper of }!arch 3, Tuesday, ~!arch 3, there is a question there directed to me 'by the han. member for St. John's Hest. I regret the delay in answering the question, but as the House knows that this is the first onportunity I have had this ~~eek. The question deals "'ith a letter from ~frs. Phyllis Todd and other citizens of Labrador City and enquires ~~hether such a letter was received. A letter asldn~ for assistance for gettjng a school bus service i.n Labrador City. And if so, was the said request so received - the letter in question from ~irs.

Todd Has received on the 25 day of February past, and there were a number of other letters as well from residents of Labrador City and my recollection is that at least one of the letters had a number of citizens' names signed to them. The other part of the auestion it asks - does the Government make any financial contribution whatsoever towards the school bus service in Labrador City or in l~abush, and if not, ~rhy not? This raises a question Mr.

Speaker ~~hich I kno'~ must be directed tmvards all hon. members from time to time, in spite of the fact that our school transnortation program is in 'beinR nm~ for I suppose eleven or twelve years at least .) fhere still seems to be a wide-spread misunderstanding as to the nature of that prop.ram. The ans1.;er to my hon. friend 1 s question is no, the Government does not Make /{l ? y , , . ·- --- ..--.-,- "'t _,

, .... .....~ ... .-... n-u~ ------ Harch 6, 1970 Tape lf243 Page 2 : 7 ---=- - any contribution to a bus service in either Labrador City or \,Tabush, and the reason why ~1e do not make such a contribution is for the same reason that we do not maice any contribution to any bus service in any town or community in the Province of Newfoundland. l"e do not make any contribution to any bus service l~ithin any to"''Tl or community in the Province of Nel<found­ land. And perhal)s Hr.

Sneaker, I should add one or two p;eneral statements regarding this, because these questions are being directed all the time towards members and to us in the Department of Education, and to the Government, and to everybody connected with it. The Government of Nel~foundland does not own any school buses, that is fact no. one. Fact number two is that the r.overnment of Newfoundland does not operate any school buses anYl'7here in Newfoundland or anY'•here else. Number three - fact number three is that (Hhen I said the Government does not operate any buses, I am thinking Hr.

Chairman, of ordinarv school buses, as '"e kn01v them, I am not thinking of any buses that the Derartment of Health or Helfare might operate in connection with disabled or incapacitated patients, children or adults) Fact number three is that lve have a program of assistance to school boards, to enable school boards to operate school bus systems if they qualify under the regulations. And this is a system of inter-community bus transnortation. It is not in any particular communit y . For example, the Government of Newfoundland does not make a grant to ~ay the Roman Catholic Board in St.

John's to operate a bus service in this cit)'• \Je do make a grant to that Board to operate a bus service to tr?..nsport children from one community to another - and in this oarticular case it would be from outside communities into St. John's.

The other reason perhaos I should give to the hon. member l•lhv we do not make grants to communities such as Labrador City or Lewisporte or Twillingate or Fop,o is very simple really - for the same reason I am not aware that any Province in Canada does it - at the present time this year we are spendinr, in assisting Boards of Education in bus transportation aoproximately $3.5 million, merely as grants toHards their transportation system, and this does not include the several millions of dollars th:Jt the nenartrnent of lligln•ays must spend in order to make sure that these bus svstems can onerate Rfter a sno<>fall.

If He Per" to introdnce a system, or a program such as is envisaeed here, namelv a orogram of community /6 p~- 'j"" ''-- . ---- --

... n .. r :·larch 6, 19 70 Taoe !1243 Page 3 bus transnortation 1 our estimate of the cost is something of the order of $10.million a year. We do not think that this Province can afford to spend that much money at this time on that particular urogram. MR. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, on today"s Order Paper Question (177) asked by the hon. member for Bonavista North. I do not have a number of copies to table Sir, so if the hon. member is interested oerhaos he could copy dmm the figures. The hon. member asked hem -many medical doctors are employed by the Provincial Government. The answer is; 123.

He asked hoH many medical doctors other than Canadian citizens are employed by the Deoartment of Health - "and the answer to that Sir, is fifty-five. (3) !:ow many rr.edical students are in receipt of grants or subventions from the Provincial Government - The ansHer Sir, is seventy-six. The second part of that auestion is~ Ph at· is the amount of such grants for each student, for students who live mvay from their own homes; the grant is 52,500 a year.

And for students who live in their own homes, or v1ho live with parents, or guardians - the ansHer is $1,250 a year; the repayment of these f!:rants of course Sir, is covered by means of an indenture agreement entered into by the individual student. The fourth part the hon. gentleman asked; how many medical students dis- continued their medical course during the year 1968. The anstver is one. During 1969, the anst.rer is nil. Or none. And finally Sir, the hon. member asked: in the event of such students discontinuing such courses, are they then responsible to repay grants made to them?

The anstver Sir, is that by reason of the agreement '"hich has been entered into, t<hich has been entered for eight or ten years nou, we are looking at it again - students must repav grants only if they discontinue their medical studies of their ot"fl accord. Hr. Speaker, last night in the House, the hon. member for Humber East - I did not get an opportunity to answer his question - today' s Netvspaper has it.

I have searched my files and cannot find the letter to tvhich he refers, although the han. gentleman is not in the House ~ one of his associates and colleagues could ask him to let me have a copy of the letter - I will try to get him if the information. I Sf'oke to him before the House met today Sir, because,, the letter in question was not a copy of a letter to me - it Has a letter in fact written to the han. gent:leman - if you let me have a copv, I will get him the information for the House if he uishes, or if not for his own private use.

Harch 6, 1970 Tape 11243 Page 4 HON. E. N. DAHE (~!inister of Hunicioal Affairs): Hr. Speaker, in answer to Question (38) on l1onday's'Order Paper, February 23. The answer to the first pa~t of the questioi-t; $13,507,603. The second part of the question) $17,743,612. The third part of the question; $917,142.00. In answer to No. (184) on today's Order Paper asked by the hon. member for St. John's West. Up to the present time my department has not conducted any special investigation.

At the request of the Town Council the officials of my department are now however, carrying out an inspection of the affairs of the town and are assisting a new clerk in the performance of his duties. I am further advised by my officials as in the oast the Auditor General's department will be conducting its audit in due course. In answer to Question (192) on today's Order Paper, asked by the hon. member ·for Bonavista North. The anslver to the first part of the question is; 100. The answer to the second part of the first question is forty. The answer to first part of the second question is 160.

The answer to the second part of the second question; forty- six. HON. E. S. JONES (Hinister of Finance): tlr. Speaker, in answer to Question No. (89) on the Order Paper of Thursday February 26 by the hon. member for St. John's \vest. The answer is rather lengthy, I 1-1ill table it. And the answer to question (169) on the Order Paper of 7-!arch 5 - by the hon. member for Humber East. I 1vill table this too Hr. Speaker, but I l·muld like to give a 1vord of explanation here because it may be taken as being misleading.

It would appear from the ans1o1er to this Question No. (169) on the Order Paper of }iarch 5, by the hon. the member 'for Humber East; it .rould appear from this ans~Ver that no phones have been installed in the Legislative Chamber offices, or in the Department of Fisheries, or in the Denartment of Supoly, or in Labrador Affairs. There is no cost for the operation of phones given. HD~Vever, '!r.

Speaker, thfs as hon. members are a1•are, this is not the case, the phones are there, but because these various denartments onerate almost. entirely within Confederation Building, the cost of the phones are included in the overall cost for the Department of Public l-iorks. HR. JOHN NOLAN (:-!inister of Supply): Hr. Speaker, the ansv1er to Oues tion (162) on the Order Paner of Harch 5, asked by the hon. member for Fortune. The question is in tl·lO parts. Ans~Ver to l'art (1) $224,089.07. And the anSI·•er to the second part of the question: ap'[lroximately sixty-five to sevent'' percent.

- --- - ·---- ------- Jl-1 • !arc h 6, 1970 Taoe i· 24J ?age 5 HON. STEPHID'\ NF..\RY C-tinister of Public helfa r e): ~!r . Speaker . t have the a n~ w er to ~uest~on (176) on Coday's Order Paper, a~ked by ~1e hon. mernher fo r Bonavista North, and the forme r Minister of Puhlic 1-:elf are . Tl1e ans ~er to part one is · twenty-five - ran~<;in~ from twenty-five dolla rs t o $150. Part two the number of welfa re officers ., --·-- ---y 'r ;

nO~-i . S .J . ::L.\l1.Y (:ICISTER Of :-.'CLFARE) : \o/clfa:::-e offic~rs and social t:orkers employed _)Y- t~ - ~.=2a:trnent 179. Part· three, the nu::ober of ,.mlfare >JOrk.ers at present receiving professional training at universities am! names of such universities, total of fi~teen; attending :·Iemorial University of Newfoundland, Dalhousie university, and the University of :-Ianitoba. I have a sufficient number of copies to table Hr. Speaker, if the hon. members uould like to have copies. ORDERS OF THE DAY: HR. LEh'IS: 1•fr.

Speaker, in keeping t~ith the usual tradition associated t-;ith the debate on the Address and P,eply, I have grent pleasure in associating m>•self tdth speakers t<ho have preceded oe on both sides of the House in extending congratulatory comments to the mover and the seconder in this regard. if-: (1,; this particular occasion _.. seems to me that the selection of the mover in and the seconder has rather special significance and J'"Y humble vie'·' it displays in that selection the stroke o£ a master hand.

Both gentlemen have served their terms of office in the inner ranks of Government i:J. very responsible positions and in these capacities have served the country ,.,ell. In due time they were moved or did move out of · their offices into more humble seats, and t~hen they stand here in tL1is !louse and move and second the motion that an address be prepared and presented to Her Hajesty in gratitude for a sreech, it signifies something that is of great importance I suggest L-Ir. Speaker, in the light of recent and rather current events. Both these gentlemen n; I say 1-:ere senior members of Government and they took

part in the decisions of Government that were made from time to time doNn through the years. They accepted their share of responsibility for those decisions, and t·/hether they 1~ere for 1veal or woe insofar as the present and future of this Province is concerned they accepted that responsibility and they stand by that decision. History will record tvhether or not they and other of us ,;ho are associated 1~ith Government Policy Here ri2ht or Hronf;, but whatever that testimony may sho>~ forth, there is one thing Hr.

Speaker that I respectfully suggest is true and that is that all men including the two gentlemen concerned, acted to the best of their ability and with the deepest of sincerity in the best interest of this Province of Newfoundland. Hany things have been said on the floor of this House, not alone in the present session Hr.

Speaker but dm-m through the years, since this Chamber a:1d it s predecessor has been the form for the outpourings of comment of members. ilut it has been the invariable practice unfortunately in the history of this Province for those ~1ho are out of power to consider it to be t h eir duty if not their rig l1t to scarify and humiliate and datmgrade if you Hill, people t.~ho have had the responsibility of carrying the load of Government in :~el·!foundland. In making that corrment Hr. Speaker, I an not /t?v9 . . ' . ·-· ... - -!S --

l~rch 6, 1970, Tape 244, Paga 2 -- apb ··----- .· ··-.i!lluriing. to the present assenbly, although I am in part. Ilut it extends back over t;1e -·r -- - -4--· , ~years, and· over the history of Responsible Government in :·let•!foundland, and at the . opening day this session the han. the Leader of the Opposition quoted fran a document uhich Has one of the blackest indictments that Has ever perpetrated against public men in any system of Responsible Government under thG! British ·•Domain.

The Amulree Report to tvhich reference ~<as made by him on that day, is a report beautifully phrased, it could take it's place comparably speaking tvith the decisions at the Privy Council from a stand point of impeccable english, beautiful syntazing, logic, and all that goes to make an almost unappealable judgement the ,\mulree Report is in that category. But the Amulree Report was conceived in an atmosphere tJhich had as it 1 s object tite destruction of Responsible Government in this Province. It epitomized and characterized,personalized, the short-comings of public man.

It made little or no reference to the accomplishments of tlwse tvho too'-:

part in the formation of this country, nou this Province during the years fro;n the institution of Responsible Government until it's suspension \lnder Commission of Governr..ent in 1932. Those t<ho formulated the J1~11ulree Report were good men, compe~ent men, capable men, but in many respects they tvere hatchet men. They c:1:ne here to :-Ietvfoundla.nd anti they hokd up in the :·ie1Jfounuland Hotel.

They t>ere pap-feu, spoon- fed 1vith prop.:1ganda and material that Has directed almost entirely to one object mainly the making of a case for the suspension and abrogation of free Gove::car;1ent in the Province of "e1doundland. It Has not a Province in those dctys, it 1•as a country. In the foroation of that report the accornplis h men ts of the past I·Iere dot·mgraGed and forgotten.

The things that ,,,ere personified Here a fe1v instances of shortco o•ings ·,;hlch mig!lt have l>ecn found in the records of some <:nd very fel·! public men i<.:~nti£ietl ~vith Governmeut in ~~~~-lfoundla:~d The building of the railroad, the construction of the paper mills, the various other accomplishments that 1vere achieved by Governments in the past tYere just passed over and forgotten, not mentioned,and the vested interest in this particular area were when that report tYas engendered had other motives in view, ulterior motives. These objects were achieved and Government 1-1as suspended. It is true i1r.

Speaker, that He ;;ere running through difficult times, but the history of Ne1-1foundland from a financial angle has always been difficult. It is difficult today and it will continue to be so. It Has difficult then, and it batl been difficult prior to then, and therefore all the more credit was due to the predecessors of those members uho sit here in this assembly today for achieving what they did t·Ii th the limited r.taterials ~<hich they had at hand. And so at the present time ~!r. Speaker, any //c'l(l

March 6, 1970, Tape 244, Page 3 -- apb man charged with the responsibility of Government and the administration of public affairs in this so called young Province of Canada, no matter whether ~t is the present oc::upant or one of my h'tm, friends on the other side ·of the House, if and when they become leaders and Premiers of this Province 1~ill find the same t~ing. The man who leads administration of Government in Newfoundland is subject to terrific handicaps. He finds himself the leader or Premier of a Province that is projected .out here 1,000 miles in the North Atlantic.

Not part of the great land mass known as the North American Continent. Isolated by water, subject to severe visciditudes of climate, unattractive in many ways to the world at large. Stigmatized and advertised to the 1~orld in general all through the years as a land of fish and fog, and as I say divorced by nature from the land mass of 1~hich it forms a part. Remote from the trade lanes of the world, far removed from the financial centres from · 1~hich economic life grows.

An island with a sparse population of only 500,000 souls all imbued with an insatiable for all modern conveniences comparable to what you may find, or what people are used to in the metropolitan· centres of the highly developed, great North American Continent.

Limited natural resources, curtailed as to financial capability, short suited on economic outlook, and then attacked from all sides by all sources,and the House of Assembly by the Opposition without exception, ily the press, over the radio, and usually by television, A victim, a martyr, a ~an,and I am not speaking of a person I am speaking of his office,who is put there by the people to do a job for the people to try to salve the country and keep her afloat.

A man put in office by the majority of the people and asked to do almost the impossible task. ·To provide us 1~ith all the public •••• ,, •••.•• . ' . . . -·- -m:<

rarch 6,1970 Tape 245 PK-1 to provide us Hith all the public services that we require, to build roads over areas ,,-hicl1 can be justified, build hospitals in sparcely populated areas that cannot support them, provide a. system of education which is ~second to none in the North American Continent, maintain a civil service that is pushing the country, pay them salaries to be increased year by year, to give increases to the police and various other services, and if he fails in any one of these features he is crucified by all the agencies of publicity.

Nobody stands up and gives him a pat on the back an~ says to him: "God Help You·! I sympathize with you. I appreciate the problems you are up against, the load that you have to carry, the limited resources you have at hand to help you." Nobody gives him a pat on the shoulder, everybody· has his hand against him. That is :•reHfoundland and that has been t;ewfoundland since we have had Responsible Government. ' In 1932 there uas a change of government in Newfoundland. The previous govern­ ment was defeated and a new governr::ent carne into office, under :lr.

Halter S.J :onroe, \vho Has a gentleman, a master, a giant. What a history of Newfoundland. It is not a bad one. Associated ~1ith that government ~.'aS a man of great creative ability, a man who also believed in doing things, a man who sm> the necessity of taking chances, of gambling on the future, a man who also stated that if \ie did not gamble Ne\·7foundland had to go dmm the drain; and that man Has Alfred Il . ~- 'orine. tiorine uas one of the brightest legal lights that shone in the Canadian Galaxy, either on the l·;ainland or in :·:ewfoundland, and he played a prominent part, Mr.

Speaker, in the history of and the development of this Province, this Island. In the l-Ion roe Administration he 1-:as the great brain. Being a pioneer, having a creative imap;ination and beinp; a man of nerve, '"hat did he do? He instituted the buj_lding of hip;hroads in Ne~;foundland, he built the NeHfoundland I:otel, he built the Dockyard, he re-railed the railroad. And what happened? They had to go into the money markets to get the money to do it.

But if they had not done that \Ye would not have the Ne\vfoundland Hotel down there, which is there today, now taken over by the C.N.R., we vould not have the Drydock in the 1\Test End of St John's and I doubt if we would have had many miles of roads in Ne~•foundland. He might have had some since Confederation but ~re Hould not have had any up to then. He tvould not have gotten any under Commission of Government So that Government lasted four years, but during that period of time that man was pilloried, the Administration was pilloried.

Nothin g was to bad to be s aid, no criticism ~r as too sharp to be directed against that Administration,

Harch 6tb. 1970 Tape 245 ·. PK -2 against him. Nothing was too heartless to say about him. No slander was too ---- - -abominable to utter about him and it was all sized up at the turn of the election of the term, when the next election came around. And it is all summed up in this ditty, it ccnsisted of about four lines; Our revenue is three million short, our debt is thirty more, -----To late to l~hine your ship }iorine in 1924. She is on the rocks, says Cyril Fox, like Darling Clementine, She is lost and gone forever since you shipped A.B. Morine. Now that summed up, }~.

Speaker,the philosophy that was in effect in Newfoundland at that day, which was prior to 1932. The man ~1ho tried to do something, the fellow who was ' prepared to step out of line. The man who saw it l~as necessary to risk his future and the future of the Province. lfuo had to gamble. ~~o had to go to the money markets, take chances for the creative things, he was the one. And when it was him, I mean the administration which he represented was all put in the same category. And so we went through a decade of Commission of Government, and in Commission of Government criticism did not exist.

But neither did any creative ability exist. And <Te got to the situation here, where during those days the standard, I am not going to refer to, then was almost unbelieveable. Then you came to another decade, and I am not going to deal ldth l~hat has happened during this last ten or twenty years.

But I will say this, that no matter what he said on the floors of this House, in this session, l·Thether it be last week or a month or a year, involving either the Government as a whole or the one who is charged with responsibility of directing its necessities? ijithout a man of this type, the mentality, the courage, the foresight, the vision, the imagination, that we have here in the Leader of this Government, then this country does go do~ the drain. Unless we have imagination, unless we have creative genius, or else we have above all guts to take a chance on the future, then there is no future for Newfoundland.

We are born under a handicap, we are subject to physical and geographical and economical and f~nancial limitations. And if Smallwood can bring her out of i~, he will be a miracle worker. And he will deserve all the plaudits, and all the credits that any man who accomplishes things is entitled to. It maybe that, it maybe in .the history of things, that he will have to banish from this thing, and I do not mean physically, I do not mean politically, but just fade away. It maybe that the future years · will give him credit. But, if he can succeed, Mr. Speaker, //62-- .. . - -- - .;j, '

-------- -------- - llarch 6th. 1970 PK - 3 in solving the riddle of Newfo.undland, and keeping her afloat financially ard -.?···-··--. economi~ally and otherwise, then future generations will have reason to ~et down on their knees, and say, as some of my old friends in the Read of Conception Bay, has said to me before, ".Thank God, for Smalh~ood." Now our district was never a wonderful Smallwood district, but he has got wonderful friends, he has got friends, Mr. Speaker, who never saw the sun over his head. Tbe other day I met an old friend of mine up there.

An old friend, a inan of great parts~ One of these typical Newfoundlanders, who is full of natural ability. He never had the privilege, Mr. Speaker, to dart into the doors of a University, and saw very little of high school atmospheres. But, he ~;as a man who travelled ~hroughout the United States engaged in the construction business. Practically every skyscraper in Manhatten he ':."as on. And he was on the centre spiral side of "Quebec Bridge" when she went down into the guts of the St. Lawrence River.

He was one of the few men, and there are few here in this House tonight ''ho remembers it, when the first time the "Quebec Bridge", the attempt was made to put a bridge across the St. ·Lawrence River below Quebec, when they came to hook the centre spiral, Mr. Speaker, if you remember, there was an engineering fault, and because of a slack of an ~ighth of an inch, v1hen that centre span came dmm to be locked, it did not connect, dropped into the river, a~d it took thirty odd men to the bottom of the St. Lawrence River with it.

One of the fellows who was on the inside end raise to push the rivet, ~en she locked, was my friend. Itc:.waso:while ·the Convention was on, when . the spray was going over, and criticism was being fired from all sides, and he said to me, and he said it in deep sincerity, Hr. Speaker, he said, "What are they trying to do with that poor man?" I said, "what do you mean"? He said, "Hhat are they trying to do 'dth Smallwood?" I might have know, I said, "That is politics, my son~ Do not take that too seriously". Hell, he said. He told me about his experience at Topsail.

He said, I am living on a small pension, that I get, as a result of my services with the Horton Steel. And he is living in a little cottage, Hr. Speaker, on the outskirts of Holyrood today, alone. And his little pension from the Horton Steel is insignificant. But he has another pension which he gets from the Government of this Province,or the Government of Canada whatever you like to call it. And ''ith the two, plus his little plot of land, he is happy, he is content.

But, he said, and I think his philosophy is sound, given allowance for a man as he is, with the atmosphere as he news knows it, he feels secure and safe. But, he says, what will happen, if they change this land( (/IJtf .. .• - ·-· -··;FJ •

~'arch 6,19 70 PK-4 _l'lQR.that is. the atmosphere 2nd that is the attitude of a lot of p·eople around this co'-l!ltry.--.Ihaj: is the attitude cif great masses around l\ewfoundland, I believe, bec~use they feel that they owe this man an inestimable debt. They owe their security in their old age to him, they are giving him credit for it. That is the type of man they are giving credit to. He · is not getting it :rom other quarters. But the other quarters, who are crucifying him and lvho are crucifying Newfoundland with him are doing a tremendous amount of damage, an inestimable amount of damage, to this Ptovihce.

The other ·day there was a reference made here to the philos~phy adoped in Nova Scotia by certain publications there, in a lesson of criticism of Government. Now if there is one lesson could be learned by this House and not only by this House but by any government or any opposition, it is this: Criticize, sure, all that you feel like doing, but limit your criticism in such a ~my that you are not sacrific- ing the interests of your m·m country.

And that goes for radic , it goes for tele- vision, it goes for "Open-Line", it goes for oppositions and ;.;rhat have you, it goes for every media of expression because the first thing and the most important thing is to preserve entact; and that I submit, Hr. Speaker, is the obligation of every man who comes ;oithin the four Halls of this Chamber, who is elected by the people. I do not care for which p2rty he is elected, he Has not elected to destroy the credit of his own country.

And if any man by destroying the credit of his m,'tl country, uses that as a stepping-stone to political attainment or for political drama, he is SOlving the seeds of his o~ as ;,·ell as his country's destruction. Now, I want to say a word about something else, we have an institution here of Hhich we are very proud of, at least of which lve should be very proud. And that institution is known, I think, as the Hemorial University of Newfoundland. Is that the proper designation of it? That institution ;.;ras established, as Hr.

Speaker kno1-1s, as a result of the scarifice, a deep scarifice, and financial effort of the people of this Province. And it is interesting to recall the philosophy behind it, it did not come into being over night as a university, it was created as a college, Hnivers.f:ty ' College, I think it was called. by previous governments of· this Province. And it was largely the result of' the dedicated, unselfish, limitless, devotion of three men. Three Newfoundlanders, one of them was the father of my respect colleague here, the Minister of Justice, the late Dr. Curtis.

A tremendous Newfo.und:Jlander, the type of Newfoundlander of whom ~Ve are all proud of. He have to be proud of, if we have any sense of pride in us, in sofar as our country is concerned. He came from humble . I

-------- ---·-- l!arch 6, 1970 Tape 245 PK-5 ~~ ginnings, born in Blackhead, I believe, over on the northside of Conception Bay. -)0-re~his_biography a short ' ti~e a~o, his wonderful accomplishments. I believe ~e was ·the first clergyman ordained from that particular community, a small community, but as a result of his example and his inspiration and his dedication as a mj.nister, seventeen other young men from that small community of Blackhead, on the north side of Conception Bay follmJed in his footsteps. vlhat a record. . \·/hat a record of good.

Was there anything said about him in relation to the Amulree Report? That type of r.1an 1vas not knm·m. Side by side with him there 1-.>as another man, Dr. Vincent Burke, who was born on the Soutl:nvest Coast of Newfoundland, in St Jack's, there among the fishermen. He kne1i' what it '''aS to talk the fisherman's lanr,uap,e. He lived 1vith them. He did not suffer r.~uch tvith them because those people were prosperous, but he was inti~ate ~lith the fishermen and he kne1v the conditions under which those fishermen lived. The third one ~Vas Dr. Blackler. Notv I do not know too mych about Dr. Blackler.

Hhat I was trying to get at ~Vas this, that this three men ,.,orked inconoparably over the years and with the help, of course, of government and other things ultimately came into being the u;iversity College. Nm·l the concept of the University College was this: It Has an institution conceived Hith the idea of providing facilities ,.,hereby the fisherman's son could ~ get an education, ultirr.ately a university education.

Then re!'l~er there was a philosophy abroad, and the sa!'le thing applies to the Amulree Report, that the place for the fisherman's son was not in the University College, 1vas not in St Bon's nor the :-!ethodist College nor Bishop Field , Oh no! Ee vas supposed to be kept back on the lobster trap. The function of the fisherman's son ,.,as to haul the trap, to steer the motor boat. h'ho is going to catch the fish Hhich in time can be turned into gold, if the fisherman's son is going to be educated?

Consequently there was a wall of opposition, almost insurmountable opposition and a lack of interest "'orking against the institution of this so-called University College. But dispite those obstacles, }!r. Speaker, in spite of that bulk of opposition, these three men persisted, the Goverrunent pers.isted and ultimately that ---school of learning was e~tablished, and ,;hat was started as an acorn has grm-m into a mighty oak and today you have what is knmm as the Hemorial University of Newfoundland. The Hemorial University of Newfoundlimd is the fisherman's university. It belongs to the pe'ople of this Province.

It is put there for the purpose of providing a means or ways and means for a fisherman's son in Sandy Cove Island or Ragged Ass Tickle or C)uirpon, or '"hatever you like, to come in and have the same opportunity to //cJ { ~ -- ·-

::arch 6. 19i0 Tape 245 PK- 6 get a university clei:ree as you, :;r. Speaker. That is the idea of it, that is the philosophy which inspired Curtis, })urkc and lllackler. That: t·.'•ls the philosophy ~<hich inspired the government that created that institution years and years ago. In those. ' days, ltr. Speaker, those tvho Here fortunate enough to be able to get a university education t-rent to the ~~ainland, to the Universitx. · l-lount Allison educated the Southt- lest Coast, those of ther.~ tvho could go.

Dalhousie University, Anti~onish University, Acadia University were the shining lights, they were beacons · of light on the ?-fainland of Canada to tvhich those fortunate enough to be able to get within their walls were welcomed. l·lewfoundlanders Here welcomed, the door Here thrown open to them, and you t·lere there in equal status with the professor's son himself. I tvas a fisherr..an' s son myself. l·!y father sailed a banking schooner for thirty odd years on this coast, and he brought in, in his day, his share of fish.

He earned his dollar, honest to God dollar hauled out of the guts of the bottom of the sea, and he never lowered his flag to any man. And I went to school, Sir, at Dalhousie University, one of a thousand, like my hon. friend on the other side of the House m~nt too. And I sat side by side, in the same "school, .vith nephet·:s of the I'ri;:::e :·:inister of Canada, sons of Cabinet Einisters, sons of judges, and I t<as treated in equal right with all of them: ... !hat t-tas the philosophy. That was it.

But there v1ere thousands t.J ith far more brains than ci~,t·J ith much more ability than I ever had, who tVere deprived of their right to get into these universities, :;r. Speaker. So the great concept was conceived by these 8entlemen, t.o provide similar facilities in Ne1,•foundland. And no~7 we have them, '.>le h:1ve then. He have a tvell established university, able professors from all over the \corld, they tell me, er.U.nent r:1en, eminent in their various spheres, none worse, none 15etter. Hut what is happening? 1~1lat is happening? The image of that university is being tarnished.

It is tarnished, it is not being tarnished but it is tarnished. . . . ... .... _ ---

March 6, 1970 Tape 246 Page 1 GC -- I am not concerned with the magazine anymore than I am concerned with the -_,.?·- ---- radio-and the TV, but I am concerned with the fisherman in Quirpon, or in Sall}!~s ' Cove, or in Ramea Rocks, or in the bottom of Fortune Bay, who has a son or daughter who are coming up to the age when they should go to the University. I am concerned with the man who sees his daughter'coming into the formative years and his son 1~ho,- both of whom have been reared in Christian homes, being subject to all that is good and all the virtues that are worthwhile in forming manhood and womanhood.

And he is faced with this grave decision, "l~hat am I going to do with my son~ ~ere am I going to send my daughter? ,\m I going to send her into this University, to be subject to the stuff that I hear over open-line or to hear about the indiscriminate, whatever the hell is happening up there in regard to these various things 1.re hear about?" Now it is somebody's responsibility to check that.

It is somebody's responsibility to restore that image, to restore, not the image, but the •~hich confidence with/the people of this country,. the ordinary man and lvoman in this country who has a daughter or son coming to the point when they should receive University education, can send them there with confidence. And when that child leaves that mother's knee in Sandy Cove Island, pure, untouched by the affairs of the lvorld, and the son, untarnished, what can she send them~ Can the father send them?

Can the mother send them ' here and feel confident that the probity, the virtue, the purity, of these children is being protected. There is the challenge and it is not alone a challenge of the Government, it is a challenge for the University. It is challenge for the §tudents' Council. It is a challenge for the Churches. I hear no protest about it, but I am protesting from the floors of this House tonight. I say it is abominable. I say it is intolerable and I would rather see the damn place burntc:down than allow that thing to caEry on with impunity. It is a shocking indictment on u·s.

It is not because it happe~s in Berkeley, in California and because I it/~3lerated in San Francisco;-· liecause it is blasted on the front pages of "Life" or "Time", that 1ve should tolerate it in Newfoundland.

f~rch 6, 1970 Tape 246 Page 2 GC \ole have something in :1ewfoundland. We all{ays did. We have basic virtue, particularly in our womenfolk and if our uomenfolk are not protected, 1•hat about the generations "coming up? And if they cannot protect themselves, they are entitled to be protected by somebody else. Now, that is a serious charge. It is a serious matter, but, Mr. Speaker, I am equally serious about it. And if the price of this University is to mean the downgrading and degradation of o.ur people, close the blooming place down.

But, if ve are going to maintain it and we are counting,- we are going to vote here in a few days time - almost countless millions to keep it going, well then, 1ve should be assured and those whom we are here to represent should be assured that that money is being properly spent. that that money is being spent in such a 1vay that the traditions and the princip-les for which we stand and without IJhich no nation can stand, must be preserved. The same thing applies, }!r. Speaker, in relation to other arts, so called. Arts! I was up to this Arts Centre - Science place, one night shortly after it 1Jas opened.

I was given an invitation to others, and there was a play put on, - a so-called best seller. I am not a prude. I can take it as well as anyone else and I have been through it. I was not born yesterday and I was ·not always •tdthin the four IJalls of a church, but when I come to see salaciousness and almost unspeakable, unspeakable, unutterable, unthinkable stuff being broadcast from a stage, so called as Art and classed (~rhat do you call that) best sellers and patrionized, what is happening to us? How long can we go on 1•ith that stuff? What institution can stand up under it?

The same thing applies with your magazines: I was in Ne~Y York the other day. This 1Jas another step a1•ay from here. Last time I was in New York it was a pleasure to go out and walk up and down Broadway, a pleasure. Today all you see on Broadway, from one end to the other, is a demonstration of nudity and not alone nudity but other things almost unutterable. And it is being drunk, H is being absorbed by the people down there. Now, this is far removed, maybe from Budget Speeches.

It may be a long way removed from the Auditor-General's report, but I beseech my friends on the other side of this House, who are young men, lvho are able men, who are

·-- ·------- ~~rch 6, 1970 Tape 246 Page 3 GC men interested to continue in public life, that it is their responsibility as well as ours as far as \ve can carry it, plus anybody else in authority to get us back on the rails and keep onrselves:·bn the' r;~.ils. And if we can keep ourselves on the rails, in that sort of thin·g, Mr. Speaker, we do not have to worry about other a~enues of our activities. .So much for the University. One word again about - I would like to say a uord on transportation. Transporta_;:ion, to me, is almost a fetish. Transportation and Neufoundland. The t1o1o things, to me, are synonymous.

If Ne1o1foundland is to survive, and I hope she is - I have very great hopes that she is - the one thing that we have to give serious .consideration to, in every avenue, in every facet, is transportation. HO\¥, we have not been doing it. lie have not been doing it. Not in the sense that lve should have been doing it. \·Je are an Island, as I said. Being an~Island, we are subject to limitations from the standpoint of transportation, movement of goods, freight and what have you.

But, while, as an Island, \ve have certain disadvantag~t; it also gives us oth~r advantages ''hich are not existing in other areas of this landmoo.ss. And, \vhat I am particularly interested in is international transportation. International transportation hy lvater is something that has a future that is unimaginable, Hith the development of the heavy bulk carrier, and the heavy· transport tanker, the possibilities. ' for Newfoundland are the challenge to our imagination and our creative thinking.

There is no use for us to hope to get things done in Ottalva IVhere the Department of Transport is located, not withstanding the fact IVe have a NeNfoundlander's Hinist:er of Transport. The Department of Tr.ansport, like the Department of Fisheries, and a good many other departments, but these t\¥0 in particular, need to be diversified. The Department of Transport is settled in Otta1o~a in the centre of a g!reat landmass and it is not water-oriented.

Its .·. philosophy -is not water-oriented and this country is of such vast expanse :, from Vancouver Island to/\iim~vista, there is such a division of land bet\veen the two extremes, that you might be living in a different world altogether if you are up in central Canada. But ~ewfoundland is on the perimeter, it is on the perimeter of ~vorld \Vater, tVorld transportation by means of bulk carriers. The other day the world was startled by two things, one \Vas t:he voyage to the moen, which was ' a terrific achievement and the other one, which /// t)' - -·· -·.:;.

~larch 6,1970 Page 4 GC Tape 246 to me '~as more important was the voyape of the"Nanhattan"into Prudhoe Bay. -. ~ ·- . --.:.__ Now the"Hanhattan"succeeded in getting into Prudhoe Bay - Incidentally, I was in Ottawa the day she got there, and an interestinr. thing happened. \,Then the \vord carne in we ,.;ere in there having T:Jee.tin?s there in the Department ~f Transport Building. The word carne in that the J!anhattan had gotten through to Pru.lhoe Bay and simultaneously 1•ith that somebody showed a chart and pinpointed on the chart '"here the "Chesley A. Crosbie" Has. The"Chesley A.

Crosbie'·, on that day, vas a\·:ay down inside the Arctic Circle, further north even than the :ranhattan. This Has only incidental. A :<ewfoundlander "'as master of the "Chesley A Crosbie'', but there was no ballyhoo about that. It 1·1as Captain Lush. The"Hanhattan: of course, reached Prudhoe Bay, and she got back again and she is going a!!-ain, l!r. Speaker.

This proves one thing; that the oil · people •~llo put up the financing to force the"Nanhattan"into Prudhoe nay must be satisfied 1dth their investment or they would not send her back again. iJmv '"hat intrigues me about her r.oing back again is this: If the "}!anhattan"or any other ship (I don't care "'hat her nane is) can succeed in establishing a commercial route into Prudhoe nay, for the transportation of that oil from there to the outside Horld, then l'!evfoundland falls right into the picture.

The reason is this: The type of shir> \vhich has to be used to get into the l\orthwest Passage is not the type of ship that is used in open waters to get to the off-loading points for your black ore. So that it means, just as night folloi'S day, just as certain as night folloHs day, just as certain as the sun is coming up tomorrow morninp;, if that trade route throur,h the North,;est Passage is established then Newfoundland ,;ill be the stepping stone between the black oil in the first stage into the off-loading at the terminal point.

Somewhere here on this Island, somewhere here you will have "a trans- shipment point bet\veen the ice-breaker and the deliverer, one being an ordinary shell tanker, capable of operating and navigating in open Hater and the other being a reinforced type of ship, heavily reinforced, that will permit her to operate through the Northern Icefields. And ~~hen thai: happens it has to be done in t\vO stages, and the place for the off-loadins:; and for the transshipment must be some>·!here in NeHfoundland. /II/

~arch 6, 1970 Tape ~46 Pase 5 GC Now, that somewhere in ~ewfoundland is another question. Where to be? There are places to be considered which leads me into . .inother .facit of my comments. ~le are fortunate, thank God! We are fortunate on the South Coast of Newfoundland in having deep water facilities. A great deal has been said and has been talked about Come-By-Chance. If the hopes come to fruition it will be a wonderful thing for us. But in Mortier Bay we also have a tremendous deep-water harbour with great potential but my favourite, and it may be a selfish now, prejudiced view, is Bay D'Espoir.

I have looked upon Bay D'Espoir, Sir, for a good many years, almost with longing. I have talked it with some of the best transportation men I know, purel y as a matter of talk,as to just ~~hat the potentialities of Bay D'Espoir are. Bay 1:1' Espoir, to my mind, has everything,· everything but one thing. It has not got dollars to make possible what should be happening in Bay D'Espoir. It is Bay D 'Espoir or ~ !artier Bay which are the natural outlets for the St Lawrence Basin and the Great Lakes.

And you are hearing a lot of complaining today about the wheat being stockpiled, you are hearing about the farmers starving in Saskatchet~an, not able to raise enough credit on their thousands of bushels of whea~ to be able to get oil to heat their homes. You are hearing a lot of complaints about Canada's competition in the outside tmrld, in the trade tmrld, in trying to get her production into these trade markets, in competition tdth other areas. And right in Bay D'Espoir, on the South Coast of Newfoundland, is the key to a lot of Canada's internal transportation problems.

But the Upper Canadian does not know that Bay D'Espoir exists, knows nothing about Mortier Bay and very few in the Department of Transport kn01~ anything about it. Don Jamieson may: They"have no interest in it, Mr. Speaker, no concern with it. I mentioned the potentialities of it, either there or Mortier Bay, what it needs is some cold, hard, constructive thinking, some constructive outlook, men of vision and fellows who are prepared to take chances.

If that were on the S.Eastern side of the continent, where the Japanese could exploit it or if it were within striking distance of Soviet Russia, having the same advantages, half way around the t~orld, it tvould not be there as it is now. But some day Bay D'Espoir and !-!artier Bay have to come into

Harch 6,1970 Tape 246, Page 6 their own, if we are going to stay alive, if Canada is going to put her mm products into the markets of the world or if she sits back and lets - --- -them all be moved by foreign flats, that is another story. Because, Mr. Speaker, with the development and gro11th of the heavy-bulk carrier, whether it is tanker ship or dry cargoing, there is a limitation across the River ---- St Lawrence which the Lord himself put there, beyond 1-1hich these ships cannot go.

There is a limitation on the depths of water between Hontreal and Quebec, which is limited, in fact, to a ten thousand ton ship. - Above that they are precluded, they cannot operate, it is just impossible. The Lake Basin traffic should be moving out of the lakes; down the river in these ten thousand tanners or fifteen thousand tanners to some1vhere on the perimeter and there transshipped into ocean carriers of the bulk size that I am talking about.

Just one example of 1-1hat I am trying to say, one example of the difference beti·Teen action and inaction: Hhen Disraeli, the Prime Hinister of England, saw himself faced with a dilemma in relation to the Suez Canal, when it was possible and not alone :Jossible but it 1vas almost inevitable that the controlling shares in the Suez Canal would be acquired by other interests, the llouse of Commons was not in session, and he did not have any money and he could not get any money to do anything about it. -.. __ j//3 - : -- --- .,., '. ·-""

:larch 6, 1970, Tape 247, Page 1 -- apb So he went and he interview-ed 3.othschild, the forebearer of Rothschild who is I think identified with Brinco, and he put ti1e position to Rothschild that if he did not get this many millions of pounds, that the shares to the Suez Canal would be gone and ·England 1.-ould l1ave lost the opportunity to control the Suez Canal.

Rothschild said to him 11 \vhat is the security?" he said l' the security :LS the credit of England, the Government of England." The other fellow said to him "it is done, you have the credit." He had no Order of Council, he could not do it by Order of Council, they had no legislative authority and this is what was done and the Suez Canal ,.;as saved. The Suez Canal Has opened and the traffic around the Horld 1vas changed.

The Cape Route, the route around the Cape of Good Hope vanished over night and you had the short route from India to the Hediterranean to the U.K., and the eastern seaboard of the United States revolutionized. Overnight revolutionized. And so it "'ent on i•Ir. Speaker, for fifty more years, until one night in your time and my time, llr. Nasser the Prime Hinister of Egypt decides that he is going to block the Suez Canal.

So he blocks the Suez Canal, and all that had happened as a result of this great vision, and this great "ork, was reversed so that the passage through the Suez Canal was nmv stopped, and 1·1e reverted back to another hundred years again around the Cape of Good Hope. So as a result all 1;ater traffic ~<hich fonnally moved througl1 the Suez Canal via the llediterranean 'nmv comes around the Cape of Good Hope. What I 1vant to say is this,sir, the Isralites, the Jew - Has caught in the squeeze.

It 1vas partly because of him that the Suez Canal was blocked by Nasser, But the je1v did not lie do~~ and go to sleep, he did not sleep over the Suez Canal and moan over it like we are doing about tay d'Espoir. Talk about it but do nothing else. \fuat did he do? He decided he 1wuld build a pipeline, and he built a pipeline from the Gulf of Aqaba and the Arabian Gulf to Haifa or; ·t~e : .. ·,:_ ':'. eastern base of the }!editerranean, and today the Isralites or the Isralee he is pumping his oil now, he is short circuiting the Suez Canal. Nmv that is vision, that is action.

That is what I 2m talking about, that is the thing that makes countries grow. They took a great chance of course, of course he did, but unless you take chances li'hen ~rou are in Government, or wherever you are, even if you are playing a gQr.te of bingo you cannot get anJ~vhere. You can sit down and just criticize, and tear the other fellow do\m for going to try to do something, and take chances to create something. You tear him do1;n and you will get no where. The other fello1.; is going to make mistakes, sure, he will make mistakes • . . .. ,.- ... --..

-- ··­--- Harch 6, 1970, TApe 247, Page 2 -- apb The history of our country is mistakes. Histakes by the men who are wortln,;hile. -:--r-.r~ - -w-10ws who took chances, and in taking the chances in many instances they los·t their lives, but somebody else foll01ved on behind, that t,;as the price ti1ey paid for taking the chances. llut the other fellow got through and accomplished the object that was in view, so it is with this. N01v in dealing with Bay d' Espoir again, I just want to say another word. At the moment there is a commission,'there is a commission appointed called the South Coast Commission.

It is under the chairmanship of a friend of Mr. Russell Lake and the conunittee itself I think oonsists of mostly ~layers of the Burin Peninsula, I do not know how far west. This commission is rather unique. It is unique to this extent that it is appointed by the Department of Transport to which I was just referring. The Departoe~t of Transport is presided o.ver by a gentleman who represents the south west coast. And the gentleman lvho represents the south t,;est coast happens to be a Newfoundlander.

So we have three things operatin[l. \ole have to start with a 1-lewfoundlander, "e have the Department Hhich is the central Departutent of Transportation in Canada, and now tve have a commission, a i<et·rfoundland commission appointed by the Department under that Hinister. I have not seen the te!T.Is of reference. I believe that the primary object tJas to !wve this commission just deal 1Jith the operation of the coastal boats. I think that was it but I am not sure, I have not seen it. ln1at I = interested in ?·!r. Speaker, is to Hhat can develop and groH out of that commission.

I can see in that commission the r;erm of something that could alert people in the centre of things in Otta1•a, '"ho should be ·-- _ ::red to certain possibilities on the south coast of ;.;ewfoundland.

The personnt'!l of the commission are all south coasters, and I '"auld assume, I thin[, I arn justified in assuming that these men have that interest of that area right at their finger tips, and at heart, and that they are going to miss no opportunity to make it knmm to the !linister and to those '"ho may have appointed them just Hhat can be done, what ought to be done, and "hat should be done, vis-a-vis the south coast and transportation l·latcruise, that can be done "ith the natural facilities that are there.

One of the things that has caused some controversy recently is the necessity or othen,;ise of making ~t. Pierre a port of call for the freighting service from North Sydney to Argentia. ~;ow personally again, it is only my own personal view, I think that that is long overdue. There is quite a transit of people between here and St. Pierre during the summer time. St. Pierre is a sort of a tourist wecca for our people. ;{ow for various reasons one of t.rhicb is that )II J-

-, --- --- :·larch 6,1970, Tape 247, Page 3-- apb it offers to them certain attractions which are not available in any other part of Canada. St. Pierre is a sort of a transplant of parental France and I mean by that(I do not mean visually) .continental France into the North l{est Atlantic, The traditions of St. Pierre are Parisian and the french that they speak there is pure french. I think it is norman french really, but it is pure. Their customs are really unique and they are refreshing. Now at the pr7sent time in order to get to St.

Pierre it is necessary to traverse the long Burin Highway tvhich is not too good as tve all knmv, and go to Fortune and then board a ferry, (and she is back in the eighteenth century the ferry) and go over to St. Pierre. I have gone over on her, I have been back and forth on her.

Whereas if you make St. Pierre, (and I knm.; that there is certain gentleman probably not a thousand miles away, but he will not agree with me here) if you make St. Pierre a port of call for either the Shea on the direct run from Sydney, or the coastal boat up and do~m the coast, either one or the other I think that should happen so as to establish facilities to our people, those of us who want to go to St. Pierre and have a fetv day diversion and so forth ant! so on comparatively cheap and I think myself that it is very much worthtvhile and I woulu like to see it happen.

But that is only my Ol-.'11 view, and I hope that the south coast commission when t hey get to work vill look at those things. Hr. Speaker, I wonder if the han. gentleman tvould permit a question. In vim• of the fact that Bay d 'Espoir is only seventy miles from the centrally populate: a centre of Netvfoundland, that is the Grand Falls, Gander, Bishops Falls, Levlisporte areas, these arc: all heavily populated areas. In viet.r of the fact that Bay d'I:spoir is not too far distant from this centre of population, does he think that it could become a port of call for the ferry ~brose Shea? HR.

LE\HS: I do not knmv :lr.

Speaker, about making it a port of call for the ferry ~brose Shea, but I 11ould say this, that I agree tvith t·rhat r.1y hen. frie~says; Bay d'Espoir as the crov flies is only seventy miles from the head of Bay d' Espoir to Bishops Falls junction, and when you get the road tied in . on the north side of Fortune Bay from Harbour Breton across to Hermitage and then back to Poole's Cove which I think is in the cards, and should happen very shortly then of course, the next thing is to upr,rade your Day d 'Espoir road. !,Then you get that llay d'Espoir road hard-topped, and t:1e l<hole lonr, side of Fortune Bay fed into it, as 1>1ell as the Hermitage Bay

section t'ell it (/I 6 ' --~ ~ ·- - ·.:; ,.

)larch 6, 1970, TApe 247, P.::ge 4 -- apb should be a port of call for anythins that goes up and do~~ that coast, but '~hetner you can put the Ar:lbrosc Shea there or not is another matter, You vould have to provide the landing facilities you know, she is a s te:rtlloader and they have these facilities at Argentia, It should take something to provide them in Ba}' d 'Espoi r, But Bay d'Espoir Mr.

Speaker, in my way of thinking deserves everything that it can get, deserves the complete and enthusiastic attention of all Governments to eA~loit the natural advantages which have been made by God ~here, and it is up to the people of this country to be able to utilize it. Now one or two other lvords; NR. CROSBIE: Hould the han. gentleman permit a question, Would Bay d'Cspoir be able to handle large tankers of 150,000 to 200,000 tons variety? ~IR. LDHS: I think the ans1-rer to that is yes, I do not think there is any question about her getting to Roti Point.

The approaches to Bay d'Espoir are clean, there is deep ''ater, there is ample room. I do not think there is GlllJ_question. Tnere was some grave doubt alright ~lr. Speaker, up to t<-ro years af:O about the very same thine; :md I had the privile1:e of taking a party to Bay d 1 Espoir from here for-the purpose of looking at the approaches to Bay d' Espoir.

We '~ent up on the Taverner, with Captain Peter Drake and he took us in there, and these fellows were more than impressed,(they Here mainland people) with l·;hat they sa1.r, (they were not shipping people) but they had been briefed by some source, I do not know from 11here to the effect that the approaches to Bay d'Espoir were restricted both as to depth and also as to roanocu·n-ability. llut that situation 1;as cleared up, I do not think 1iir.

Chairman , that there is any doubt in the world that Bay d'Espoir can handle anything that is in the cards up to the present time, for trans-shipment puL?oses or other wise, In ilay d'Espoir you need a railroad frol!l Bishops Falls, railroad branch and an up to date hardtop road, good deep water terminal facilities, good warehousing facilities, and then I think Bay d 'Espoir will sell itself. But Hill% nm;, the definite problem is that you have tvo areas here.

You have the shipping man, and the warehousing man. ~~at you have to scll,if the Canadian Government, or some department of the Canadian Government could be sold on the idea of making the facilities in Bay d'Espoir,(talking bout DREE or with anything) a c~ntre, for a shipping centre and put in >7hat I am talking about, a branchline froru Bishops Falls ( and I '~ill deal 1-rith that in a minute too) to the head of Bay d'Espoir, and a hardtop ro<:~d right throur,t1 ', plus tr1c . ' . .. ... -.. -. ... -~1 1'! :\

f I ~~rch 6, 1970, Tape 247, PaGe 5 -- apb necessary handling facilities at Bay d'Espoir, 11ith your warehousing, and your cranes and all the rest of it, then I think you are off the ground. But the question is to get somebody to do it. Now on that question of railway, I would like to say this Hr. Speaker { I do not know but I am getting over my time) ~IR. CURTIS: That is alright, go ahead and give it to him :1-lR. LEIITS: I clo not 1-1ant to go over time Hr. Speaker lffi. }!URPHY: Have another hour and one half, very interesting HR.

"LEIHS: On the question of raill;ays, some certain very, very interesting things are happening in ~ewfoundland and they are happening entirely. We are as oblivious to it as if they 1-1ere happening over in Thailand. We have a Board of Trade here, called the Board of Trade I mean, the Chamber of Commerce or something, the .lloard of Trade IJho are i:lterested,so called interested in the trade of this Province, and as an old friendof mine said one time, a great shipping man, 1"ho came from small beginnings •••...•••.••.•••• j/IJ' --- -_...~ - -

Jl~ March 6, 1970 Tape 11248 Page 1 MR. LEHIS: in small beginnings, and we had a word of criticism made to my friend Mr. Percy Crosbie, 11r. Speaker, who today is quite a successful shipoing man. And Hr. Crosbie had changed his allegiance from a ship merchant to representative of an awesome wholesale house in the United States. It is one of the outstanding wholesale houses, and my friend noticed this one day in the paper that Crosbie was agent for this particular firm.

So he called him up and he said "well Percy", he said "I thought that you were a fish merchant," but now, he said, "instead of selling fish, he said you are selling washing machines and women's drawers". Now today the same thing is happening here - what is happening in the railway is not appreciated. I do not know if there is anyone conscious of it. We are spending twenty-four hours a day broadcasting tommyrot over these radio stations. Foolishness! Nonsense! The same thing over the T.V.

I do not look at it very much, I turn it on occasionally, but when I do turn it on, I turn it off again. because I do not see anything there 1~orth looking at. But we are having things happeni~g in Newfoundland in the Railway that we are entirely unconscious of. Take for instance the transshipment facilities that have been put into effect in Port-aux-Basques. Do you know }rr. Sqeaker, that you can transship at Port-aux-Basques today, a mainland box put it on a narrm~-guage..,-rails in tHenty minutes.

That mainland hox is loaded in Vancouver at the head of the lakes or Cleveland, or wherever you like, and railed down to North Sydney. It is railed aboard of a car-ferry. It is off-loaded by the third rail in Port Aux Basque and then it is taken off the trucks and shipped on to a narrow-guage railiJay truck and moved across the country, across Newfoundland. That is one thing that has happened, Mr.

Speaker, but as a concomitant something else has happened. \\'hen these giants of Newfoundlanders who huilt the RaihJay, ~~ho built that narrow-guage string from here to Port-aux-Basques of five hundred and forty-four miles, which people can see no good except a ridicule. rcf;j/'"hundred years we have that raihJay, and nobody had a good word for it, except some smart aleck could write something in the paper about it - how long it took to get from here to there. But 1•hen these fellm•s built that railroad ~1ith a pick and shovel and a wheelbarrow and a roll of tar-paper -what did they do?

True they put a lot of curves in it, and they crossed a lot of rivers to get to Port-aux-Basques from here. But today the mainland box can traverse those bridges and make those curves and go to these 1119 . . - • ._., ..... -- ' - - ... "4'

JH Harch 6, 1970 Tape #248 Page 2 rock-cuts without any obstacles. The only difference ~!r. Soeaker, the only difference in the transit is in time. Your speed over that narrow-guage road today, from Port-aux-Basques to St. John's is down - she subject to a speed limit, I think it is twenty-five miles, or something like that, as comnared to what the narrow-guage road can do. But the corrival of that is this Mr. Speaker, namely the third rail. We were told in this House not once, twice, but ~~enty times - that the business of standardizing the road, the railroad across Newfoundland 1~as unthinkable.

It was unthinkable because of the cost that was involved in it. We are told - the latest figure I heard on it was $150,million to put a standard rail-guage road across Newfoundland. We can have a standard guage road across NeHfoundland for less than one-tenth of that. And why? The reason is ~ !r. Soeaker, that a third rail can be laid across this country, across this Province at insignificant expense - now I know people are going to say to me, "why do you want a third rail, 1~hy do you want a railroad at all?" !~ell, I Hill tell you in a minute.

I am saying Sir here, that a third rail can be established across Ne,~foundland just as it is in Port-aux-Basques _now, for an insignificant figure. Not millions, not millions at all. The bridges are capable of carrying the mainland traffic. The cords can handle the mainland traffic and so can the rock-cuts uithout any burden. And all you need is your third ri\il. Now w~th your third rail, you are not involved in any capital expenditure insofar as rolling stock is concerned, because you can roll your stock across the Gulf of St.

Lawrence on the car-ferry, 1~hether it is locomotive, a box-car, dump-car, any kind of a car - and with your third rail you can 1~heel it across Newfoundland. Now you ask the question Mr. Speaker, very properly, why should we think we think about a third rail at all? \~ell I will tell you wlj.y. He I ' have to grow .up in this country, we have to grow, and tn order to gr.mtT we have to think. And in order to think I suppose you must have something on top of your bead, your shoulders.

I do not know if it is a fact, I kno1t1 it through certain sources - within recent months certain experimental operations have been carried on for the handling of bulk traffic out of this Province. Paper products, and these paper products have been moved in mainland /I Z D . .;- ·~·- -----""~

J)./ March 6, 1970 Tape i/248 Page 3 boxes over that narrow-guage road into Port-aux-Basques, transshipped and then rolled right into the warehouse as far as Dayton, Ohio. Hy hon. friend from Corner Brook knows what I am talking about. And the impact of this Mr. Speaker, the impact o~ this could be nothing short of revolutionary, because of the rapid transit, because of the fact that there is no breakage, because of the fact that it is a direct movement.

Now that can develop like a stream, where you break through a waterway, and the water starts to trickle - and then you have a rainstorm, and the waterway starts to swell. And then you get a current, and the current washes away the banks, and the next thing you get is a navigable stream. In Grand Falls and Corner Brook you have the potential for a movement of paper products out of this Province by rail, by rail, direct shipment, no transit, no transshipment which can be a tremendous thing to the economy of the paper company.

If you add to that the fact that you get a linerboard mill in Stephenville, if you do now, again I say, if you do - granted that Doyle's dream will come true. Did you get your liner mill in Stephenville? And then did you get John Shaheen's mill in Come-by-Chance? You see what happens ~!r. Speaker - do you see the talk, do you see the drivel, do you see what can happen? And as to \vhy, \vhy we should be thinking in terms of a third rail. Why that there should be some thinking in Otta\va - at the source and center of things in Ottawa in relation to these things.

I do not know if there is enough- maybe there is, I hope there is. If there is not, we are falling dmm on the job. But I just mentioned that in passing because it is an interesting thing, and I am saving here now, that the establishment of a third rail which means a standard guage rail\vay system across this country, across Newfoundland, is something that is barely within our grasp - the caoital investment involved is insignificant, and there it is. There is one or two other things, I am sorry, m hope.I am not borin~ the House Mr. Speaker, but I have one other thing to say, and that is about Marystown - RON. G.

A. FRECKER (Minister of Provincial Affairs): T~ould the hon. member permit a question? I am \vondering 11r. Speaker, about the third mill - it is I' I Z I

.~ JW Harch 6, 1970 Taoe 11248 Page 4 a magnificent idea I think - but the ~Jeight, what about the size of the rail that is there now compared to the one that >·muld be rmt down for the third rail. l.rould it be possible that they would need a bigger, heavier rail? }ffi. LEWIS: My understanding on that is that your rail at the present time is heavy enough Sir.

You have a ~•eight limit on your bridges - I have forgotten how many tons it is now, but insofar as your weight limits are concerned, and the rail itself is concerned, I do not think there is any problem - but it would be a simple matter of course to increase the weight of the rail - make it a ninety pound rail instead of what it is at the oresent curves time. The .-· are all right. The curves have been tested for moving traffic across - around these curves nmv - s tandard-guage cars. They moved a unit into Holyrood two weeks ago - two or three weeks ago Mr.

Speaker - on tVJo flats - that unit has been moved on two flats right from its point of shipment, and then they took it into Port-aux-Basques and transshipped it on to a narrow-guage. It was never done before - in fact it was impossible to do it, and what do He hear about it on the radio? :-lathing. They did not get any T.V. pictures of that- she carne across Newfoundland Hr. Speaker, at six miles an hour, and the trainmen were out on every corner and bridge to see what her clearances were.

And she had clearances on the bridge at something like five or six inches, you know, in case it might shift on those narrmv-~uage boxes. A tremendous piece of achievement. Not a ~vord about it in the paper, no paper - writing about what the price of silk stockings are on Water Street. He were safe, and the people who ~•ere charged with the administration of this so-called media in Newfoundland - they m•e a job - they owe a duty to this Province too. They are being sustained hy the Province, and instead of criticizing Joe Smallwood and the Government for its mistakes - I know they make plenty of them.

Instead of spending all their time on that let us give them something constructive. Tell us some of the things that are worthwhile to know about Newfoundland. What about that ship that was afire off Pdrt-aux-Basques the other night? What did we hear about it? I do not know if there was anything about it on the radio, but the fire was put out by the people in Port-aux-Basques - what about that tanker: that ran adrift in Placentia Bay last week - and ~vas adrift for all night, and could not be picked up by t'vo divers, who stood by II J.. 2

Harch 6 . 1970 Tape 1!248 Page S or could not ~et alongside of her - and then she was taken by tbe Petit forte and to~ed to Argentia, and if that one had been loade-d t.tith oil and had driven ashore on ~ed Island Head you would have had at:~other disaster. Nor; a word about it, nothing. You hear a lot of trash, foo lishnes s -but I want to say a word about Xarystown before I go. ~~rystown - there has been a lot of criticism, and justifiable criticism in Marystown , sure !123

HARCli. 6 1970. Tape 249 page l. there has been a lot of criticism, justifiable criticism, about Marystown sure. No doubt about that. There have been a lot of money spent on the shipyard in Marystom1, not the shipyard on the fish plant at Marystown. More money than should have been spent too. It is not going to cost this Government anything. My hen. friends, my han. friends know, the fish plant in Marystown was built by the Government and it was, but all that was underwritten by the Atlantic Sugar. The whole trouble was, the Atlantic Sugar got into it over their necks. ~fuy I do not know that is their business.

But, it is not going to cost theProvince of Newfoundland anything. The only thing about it is this, either Atlantic Sugar carries on, or if Atlantic Sugar does not carry on somebody else will carry on. And the only reason Atlantic Sugar will not carry on is because they have such a load of capital piled up there that it might be impossible to haul fish enough off the Grand Banks or get trawlers enough to haul into ~!arystown to pay it off. But it does not mean it is as black as it sounds, that plant in ~!arystown is a wonderful thing, wonderful. An excellent plant.

And the trawlers I am told are excellent trawlers. And I am told too, that the two trawlers that Here built at the Narystown shipyard are equal to the trawlers that lvere built over in the Dutch yards on the other side. I am telling you what I know, they cost more money they cost a lot of money, but that is another story. The fact of the matter is }!r. Speaker, you will lose no s~eep over Marystown fish plant. That is all right. Hut it makes no difference in this Province whether Atlantic Sugar makes money or loses money, like they did dolVO off the coast of Peru.

They have to take care of it and that is that, and if they do not somebody else lvill and do it very well. Now a word with regard to the shipyard. That shipyard was conceived in the first instance as a repair y~rd. But it ultimately developed into a shipyard. And the reason it developed into a shipyard , Mr. Speaker, was because people visualized and saw the necessity because of the upgrading at that time in the price of fish and the production of fish, we had, - what do you call them from - Birdseye came in here~from England to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to get into our fish production here.

Ross Steers, came from England, Ross Steers did not, but Ross came from England and they were going to put hundreds of millions of dollars in here too imd which they did, I think they put a lot of money in here, but they "ere not successful, things dropped out and they just pulled out of it again. Too bad for both sides. But these things happen. But the same thinking that inspired Ross's and Mr. Birdseye to come to ~ewfoundland namely to get the benefit of the north Atlantic fish sources, and get into the real II). 4 • ! ., . .. . ~ .. ---;:

~!arch. 6 19 70 . '!ap e 249 page 2. l b/ production end inspired the people who said that we will go .from a r.::p?-$-.t: .. yard to a shipyard at Marystown. Why? Because they saw ~!r. Speaker, the growing demand for a trawler fleet in Newfoundland. They saw this increasing year by year. And either you went to Holland and had the Dutchman build them, where they buiid excellent trawlers or you went up to ~ictou or somewhere else and had the mainland firms build them.

In which event, or they would become subject to a double subsidy one of which is paid by the federal government the other is paid by the Provincial Government, and the labour for building was all spent in wherever it might be. So these people could see that this might be all right. Now it did not happen that way. You ran into a slump in the fresh fish business. You got to the point where things were very rocky and the fish plants were catching fresh fish ~~d producing it were havin3 a very very rugged time.

Until again something else happened, and when Canada put in that support policy last year it was one of the best things that ever happened in Newfoundland. And it re-established the fresh fish business, it established the flow of the fillets and cod-blocks and it put the fresh fish people in orbit. But Mr. Speaker, we have only 65 trawlers in Newfoundland. That is the entire fleet, 65 frawlers, my hon. friend from Gra~d Bank knows what I am talking about. and some of these are getting pretty shaky.

And the time is coming and it is not very far away, I may not be here, but some of these gentlemen will be heee, when you have to replace your fleet. Or you will have to replace a substantial number of this fleet. At that stage, at that point where are vou going to get your draggersZ You will have Fishery Products coming in here, you will h:we Hr. Bonavista coming in here, you will have Mr. Lake coming in here, Mr. Somebody else, draggers all 80ne, they are not fit to go to sea in, crews are refusing to go to sea. These vessel~1 al'e ~ out~rorn, this that and the other thing, we must get replacements.

Now if we do not get replacements we will ha:le to close down our plants. That means hundreds, thousands of people out of work, what are we going to do Mr. Pe'l!l!lier, I do not care who the Premier is, it might be my bon. friend here, what are you going to do? Now we must get a fleet of draggers and they are going to cost, 1~hat a million and a quarter each, Mr. Minister, a million and a quarter each. Now we have not got the money, have you got it? No, I have not got any money, it is all gone. •fuat are we going to do?

The Fortune Bay men w~ll not go to sea in them, if they will not go no one else will go, and the Buriners will not go to sea because II 2 5- . . -·-· ·-·- --·~--.

~larch 6 1970. Tape 249 page 3. •.· they are not fit and what are you going to do? Here is where the Marysto'rn plant Mr. Speaker has got to come into its own. The Marystown dockyard I am talking about. And '"'hill:! it is going to cost some dollars to the Province to keep that ·~ alive, whether it ·on& year, or two years or three it may run into millions. The fact of the matter is, that you cannot afford to let it go. The Marystowm dockyard Mr.

Speaker, I say it here tonight, is the lifeline for the trawler fleet in New- foundland and if you do not keep it and if you do not maintain it, and you do not have it there ready to turn the key and get things cracking when you need to lay the keel of a dragger then you are faced with the alternative of having to go somewhere else to buy them and send your money out of Newfoundland if you have any to send. So, therefore, Mr. Speaker, personally, a;though I feel it and I hope it of course may be hope sometimes be clouds of judgment.

But, I think,I think myself that there is a future for Marystown dockyard I think it is essential to the service, without it we just cannot survive. I . arn going to stop I am talking too long Mr. Speaker, I am sorry l have taken too much time of the House, there are a few more things I would say but I am not going to do it now. I want to thank you and the House for the patience that they have sho'rn in listening to me for these rambling remarks. HR.A.HURPHY: Mr.

Speaker, I am rather curious of the statement he made earlier with reference to Britain's treatment of Newfoundland in 1932-35 that area, 1932 the Amulree Commission. Is the hen. minister making a statement to the effect that it was conspiracy at that time to take Responsible Government from Newfoundland and at that time arrange for Confederation, was that his thinking, I just did not get it. MR,LEl-IIS: No, Hr. Speaker, no1 Confederation if I may say so vas no doubt in the back of their minds but they could not get anywhere with it for two reasons.

(1) I think Mackenzie King at that time was Prime Hinister, I am not sure I think he was, but whoever was Prime Minister at that time was not prepared to consider Confederation. But apart from that there '"'as no such thing as Confederate sentiment in this Province. In other words, the same thing ~ happened~in 1949 only worse existed at that time. lfuat I was saying ~!r. Speaker, was not, what I was hinting at was the background of the evidence that was fed into the computer that subsequently came out as the Amulree Report. That was the thing I am attacking, and that is wh¥ I said it was unjustified.

A lot of the inferences were unjustified. MR. HELLS: MR,LEHIS: Not the report itself. Yes, the source of evidence 'tas limited largely to a certain area here tt:l..t: . ' .... -· --.--0 '1-

}!arch 6 1970. Tape 249 page 4 lb in St. John's right here, and this is where they got all their evidence, this is where they got all their impressions and they condemned, hook line and sinker as a result. They condemned most of the people who fed them the information. MR.HIC~~: }~y I ask the han, minister another question? He was sidetracked when he was going into St. Pierre by the han, the member for Fortune Bay we never got back there, he did not develop his theory on the St.

Pierre port of call for the CNR ferry, this particular relationship to the Burin Peninsula I would like to hear his views to whether Burin for instance would be , should be a port of call NR.LElHS: Not necessarily Burin, but some port on the Burin Peninsula, Burin would be the most suitable port as I see it she could not get into St.Lawrence because as you knm,r there is a bar a-c:ross St. Lawrence Harbour which would prevent her from going in, and there is not water enough in Grand Bank on the other side, and she certainly could not look at Fortune.

But Burin or }~rysto\m are two beautiful ports for a large ship, of course you nee~ome, and so far as the time consumed is concerned it is nothing.

Because it is right on her rut;, and it \vould only divert her for propably two or three hours off her run and what would she do with the two or three hours anyway, I made the trip on her I know what I am talking about. ~IR.HELLS: lolhat would be the advantage ·, of a stop at Burin on the \vay? ~IR.LE1?IS: lolhat \;auld be advantage, it would provide this facility for the people on the Burin Peninsula to get on the ship no matter where they were going, if they were going to North Sydney, they could get on board the Shea at Burin, anybody from the Burin Peninsula.

I was not thinking about that, I am thirltng about the Buriner who wants to go to St. Pierre or anybody on the Burin Peninsula who would like to go to St. Pierre. MR.IVELLS: Or any Nelvfoundlander. HR.LEIHS: \.Jell, I am thinking particularly of Newfound::.t.nders if I am going to St. Pierre I would go down to Argentia and get aboard of her. As much as I like the Burin area I \vould not drive all the lvay over that road rather than go across Placentia Bay, on the Ambrose Shea. MR.HicrG~\N: We have a great tradition of going to St. Pierre on the Burin Peninsula. MR.SPEAKER: Is the House ready for the question?

It is moved and seconded that this debate be adjourned. If< 7

!'larch 6 1970. Tape 250 page 1.

HON.L.R.CURTIS(!·tl.n •. o£ Justice): Motion 4, 5, and 6, MR.SPEAKER: The hen. minister of Education to ask leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act Fur.ther To .lmend The Newfoundland Teach~rs Association Act, 1957,"' moved and seconded that this Bill be now read a first time, ordered rea~ a second time on t01110rrow. lion. the Minister of Education asks leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Schools Act, 1969," moved and seconded that this :Rill be now read a first tim.e ordered read a second time on tomorrow. }Jon. the Minister of Education asks leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act Further To ..

Amend The School Attendance Act, 1962, moved and seconded that this Bill be now read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. CURTIS: The remaining Orders of the Day do stand deferred and that the House adjourn until tomorrow Monday at 3. p.m. MR.SPEAKER: It is moved and se:~;onded that this House adjourn until tomorrow Monday at 3 p •. m. / 1 2 ~