Manitoba Hansard — 1 May 1991 (Sitting 34, 35th Legislature, 2nd Session)

35-2-34

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

second session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS {HANSARD) 40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honoursbls Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XL No. 34-1:30 p.m., WEDNESDAY, MAY 1, 1991 Printed by the Office of the Quee ns Printer. Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Leglslature LIB - Liberal; ND - New Democrat; PC - Progressive Conservative NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FIN DLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESH AMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MclN TOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROGAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STOR IE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas lnkster The Pas St. Norbert Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River PARTY LIB ND ND LIB LIB ND LIB ND PC PC PC PC ND ND PC PC PC LIB PC PC ND ND PC PC ND LIB PC ND PC ND LIB ND PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC ND ND

1458 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, May 1, 1991 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRE SENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mrs. Louise Da cquay (Chair man of Committees): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directs me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Nlak wa (Mr. Reimer), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Jim Ernst (Minis ter of Housing) : Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the Supplement ary Estimates for the Department of Housing. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Hon. Clayton Man ness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a ministerial statement to the House. Mr. Speaker, it gives me extreme pleasure to rise in the House today and announce the third offering of Manitoba Hydro savings bonds to the people of Manitoba. It Is an exciting initiative because of the opportunity it provides for every family and every individual to participate directly as a builder and a beneficiary in the Manitoba economy.

Ov er the past two years nearly 50,000 Manitobans have purchased HydroBonds resulting in over $380 million being raised for Manitoba Hydro. In fact, Mr. Speaker, more than $62 million in interest payments have been paid out to Manitoba HydroBond holders, money that otherwise would have left the province. That is money that is spent here buying local goods and services and ultimately generating local economic growth and employment. As was the case last year, HydroBonds Series Ill will once again only be available to residents in Manitoba.

This means that all the proceeds will remain in Manitoba for the benefit of our province. * (1 335) The bonds will be issued in denominations as low as $100, ensuring that this investment opportunity will be accessible to every man, woman and child in the province. HydroBonds will go on sale Tuesday, May 21 , with the interest rate being announced on May 17 . The rate will be competitively priced with principal and interest on all bonds fully guaranteed by the Province of Manitoba.

As an added new feature this year, for the first time, the bonds, which were previously offered for three-year terms, will now be available for a five-year term. In addition, a compound interest option has been added to interest paid on a monthly or yearly basis with monthly interest only available on purchases of $5,000 or more. Mr. Speaker, Manitoba Hydro is a powerful public asset for the people of the province assuring all of us efficient and inexpensive electricity for our homes and workplaces now and in the future.

With the issuance of HydroBonds, we can help ensure Manitoba Hydro remains strong with the full support of the people of Manitoba putting their capital to work in their own province. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Leonard Evans(Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, the official opposition certainly supports the idea, and we do indeed wish them lots of luck. We do hope that it will be successful. Someone mentioned that in the past we seemed to be more successful when the Premier's (Mr. Filmon) picture was not on the ads than when it was.

The other concern we have, we hope that we do not have a repeat of what happened last year where we had redemptions. last year we had $33 million less than when we started at the close of the second campaign, so that is something that we should all be concerned about. The third point I would make, Mr. Speaker, I believe, unlik e the Minister of Finan ce (Mr. Manness), that there will not be upward pressure on interest rates in Canada because of the borrowing

1459 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 1991 of the Ontario government to finance the deficit because- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Leonard Evans: The Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) should want to agree with me. We should want to have lower interest rates, and the fact is that interest rates are coming down because of the current policy of the Bank of Canada. There is a downward trend which will continue, and the borrowing by the Ontario government will have no impact on it.

The other point I would make, which the Minister of Finance should be interested in and should take note of, and that is the Federal Reserve Bank in the United States has dropped its discount rate a full half of 1 percent. That is extremely significant. It is most appropriate and it will help us in Canada and in Manitoba. Thank you. Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): Mr.

Speaker, we welcome the issuance of another HydroBond, because it is, after all, an opportunity for Manitobans to invest in their own future, a chance for dollars to stay in our own province to develop our own hydro- electricity, and for that we congratulate the government. But we see, in the minister's own announcement, that this will assure Manitobans of efficient and inexpensive electricity, and we know that we are becoming more and more efficient, thanks to the forward-looking policy of the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro (Mr. Neufeld). As a matter of fact-b efore the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) leaves his seat, Mr. Speaker- the energy conservation targets of Manitoba Hydro may be so successful that we will not have the need to build a new generating station in Conawapa. What that means is that the money that is being borrowed here for the generation of new power may be absolutely contrary to the government who thought that we needed that power for Manitoba consumers alone.

While we are glad that Manitobans are going to have a chance to invest in their own province and in their own economy, we want the government to be ever alert to our own power needs to make sure that we do not spend $6 billion of borrowed money to export energy to the government of Ontario. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. *

(1340) Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the Westwood Collegiate thirty-five Grade 11 students, and they are under the direction of David McDowell. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson). Also this afternoon, from the Grant Park High School, we have twenty-five Grade 9 students, and they are under the direction of Norman Roseman.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Crescentwood (Mr. Carr). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Mani toba law Foundation Funding Formula Mr. Gary Doer {Leader of the Opposition): Yesterday I asked the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) some questions dealing with the law Foundation formula for grants to many community groups in discretionary areas in the provincial act that was passed in 1986, Mr. Speaker.

We had confirmed that the government was indeed investigating the idea of changing the formula for those grants that would directly affect, in a very negative way, many commun ity-based groups who are already facing the front lines of the recession in terms of the people who are most directly affected in our Manitoba society. Mr. Speaker, I would ask whether the Premier (Mr. Filmon) has reviewed this matter and whether, in light of the questions we raised yesterday, he has, in fact, asked his minister to stop reviewing this funding formula.

Groups like the Com mu nity Unemployed Help Centre, who have already been cut back by his government directly, cannot afford another cutback from the funding formula of the law Foundation. In fact, the director today told the public that this centre may likely close if that happened. Mr. Speaker, Manitobans unemployed cannot afford to lose another resource in the middle of the recession. I ask whether the Premier has asked that the government stop investigating the change in this formula.

May 1, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1460 Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): These amendments to The law Society Act, as I understand, were New Democratic Party amendments, Mr. Speaker, and

Section 63 of The law Society Act sets out the mandate of the Law Foundation. One of the mandates of the law Foundation is to support law libraries. Of the large amount of money that the law Foundation grants on a discretionary basis, the list I have shows that only one law library is being supported by the law Foundation, that being the E. K. Williams law library at the University of Manitoba, a grant of $46,000. The legal community certainly benefits from the existence of the great law library in the Manitoba law Courts.

Indeed, the Manitoba law Courts used to be the home of the law school, and there are other law library facilities in other places in Manitoba as well that need to be supported. As I said yesterday, the government of Manitoba benefits to the extent of about 50 percent on the running of those libraries. We are paying 85 percent, and we are asking the law Foundation and the law Society of Manitoba for help. I am meeting later this afternoon with Dean Penner of the Manitoba law School, and I am meeting also with the head of the Manitoba law Society to discuss the options that are available to us.

It would be regrettable If we had to solve this problem in a way that did not embrace consultation and agreement by everyone. There will be consultation, but we have to reach some kind of an agreement. My efforts are in that direction to solve this thing as amicably as we can with due regard for those agencies and community groups that do benefit- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. ..

(1345) Legal Advocacy Groups Funding Criteria Mr. Gary Doer (leader of the Opposition) : I would again ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon) whether he has investigated this situation and its impact on Manitobans, its impact on other departments in government which the government Is providing services for Manitobans through. Mr. Speaker, the legal Aid Public Interest law Centre is one of the other groups funded under the discretionary funding formula of this act. That organization works with seniors' organizations, with disabled organizations, with other groups.

The seniors, of course, have already been hit with the change in the 55-Plus indexing policy of this government. This group works on many advocacy projects on behalf of seniors across the province, and other groups work through this organization. Has the Premier (Mr. Filmon) investigated what the impact on our vital advocacy groups like seniors in our society will be if that cutback takes place, and therefore their ability to advocate on behalf of their groups will be greatly eroded and our public democracy and debate will be tremendously eroded by changes for law libraries? Hon.

James McCrae (Mini ster of Justice and Attorney General): Our Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) and our government, Mr. Speaker, are very well aware of the potential impacts during difficult times on community groups and others wHo do very valuable services in our communities. Unfortunately, we did not get the kind of support we wanted in this place, but that is why the Minister of Finance set up the Fiscal Stabilization Fund which was there to assist-a so-called rainy day fund when revenues were low and it was necessary to protect valuable social services and to protect Manitobans from tax increases.

He set up a Fiscal Stabilization Fund. In like manner, the law Foundation of Manitoba has very wisely husbanded the resources of the law Foundation to the extent that the foundation presently has a $1 .8 million surplus. Now, I suppose we could say that could be used as a fund to be used in difficult times. Well, Mr. Speaker, we are in difficult times, and perhaps that $1.8-million surplus can be used to assist in cushioning those community groups to which the honourable leader of the Opposition refers to get us through these difficult times. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Justice better read the Premier's (Mr. Filmon) comments in the election, and his comm itments in the election-only to use that fund for health and post-secondary education. Perhaps he should read his own Premier's promises in the last election, and he would not give us a nonanswer like he did and has been doing the last couple of days on this very important issue.

1461 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 1991 I asked the minister a question about the public legal groups, like seniors and handicapped people who are able to articulate and advocate on behalf of their memberships through this fund and the effect that his changes will mean on those groups. Law Libraries Dupllcatlon of Services Mr. Gary Doer (leader of the Opposition): I would ask the Premier a final question.

Has he asked his minister to investigate the possibility of looking at the duplication in law libraries-we have one library for the Court of Queen's Bench, one library for the provincial judges' court-as a different option to take, rather than cutting back money for the absolute essential community-based groups that are dealing in the front lines of this recession and cutting back money from seniors and handicapped groups that use the public interest law grants to advocate on behalf of their members. Has he investigated those options? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr.

Speaker, if the prosecutors of this province, the legal services of this province, if the judges of this province were conducting themselves in a way which did not please the honourable leader of the Opposition, he would be the first person on his feet to be making complaints about perhaps the way that we are dealing with victims in our system. Perhaps sentences do not adequately reflect the gravity of offences in regard to domestic violence; the honourable leader of the Opposition would probably be very quick to be on his feet complaining about that.

You know, I am going to be discussing with the law Society and the law Foundation just what value do they place on the legal library services and what value they place on assisting community groups. I place a great value on those community groups, as does the leader of the Opposition. He does the right thing by raising these matters in the House. I say that, but I also say that the foundation has wisely managed the resources that has been coming to it during good years. The Law Society has been wisely managing its finances to the extent that it, too, has monies at its disposal.

As I say, there is a $1.8-million reserve fund there at the Law Foundation, which could serve as a cushion for those groups that they fund on a discretionary basis, so I would not want the honourable leader of the Opposition to think that-I am sorry, Mr. Speaker. •

(1350) Seniors' Housing Funding Criteria Mr. Doug Martlndale (Bur rows): Mr. Speaker, Rotarians in St. James were not the only volunteers who worked hard to get seniors housing for their area. Flin Flan Rotary members worked very hard, applied twice, then were turned down and told there was no money. A Lions Club worked for four years to establish the Charleswood-T uxedo Lions housing project. The difference between the Lions project and the Rotary Pines is the Lions project was incorporated in 1988 . They had 60 percent of the units committed, and they received a grant of $10,000. Then they were turned down.

As I was told, the minister turned his back on his constituents in order to help his friends in St. James. Why were the Lions told there was no money, yet the former Minister of Housing invited Rotary Pines to apply for funding in November 1990? Point of Order Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House leader): Mr. Speaker, it is incumbent on the member to bring forward facts of information, not hearsay. I ask you to bring him to order, because this is not the place to bring hearsay and try to substantiate it by way of questioning. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, on the same point of order, if the government House leader had been listening to the question, he would have heard that what the member was doing was relaying to this House a statement that was made by people who had been turned down by this government. He was relaying the facts to this government, something they are obviously not aware of while they are dealing in the Rotary Pines project. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable minister did not have a point of order. * * * Mr. Speak er: The honou rable member for Burrows, kindly finish your question, please. Mr.Martindale: Mr.

Speaker, my question is: Why were the Lions told there was no money, yet the

May 1, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1462 former Minister of Housing invited Rotary Pines to apply for funding in November 1990? Mr. Speaker: The question has been put. Hon. Jim Er nst (Minis ter of Housing): Mr. Speaker, with regard to the two projects that the member referred to, I might add that those events occurred prior to my becoming the Minister of Housing. However, Mr.

Speaker, I am aware of those particular projects, and let me say firstly that with respect to the housing project in Flin Flon, the organization there was unable to provi de satisfactory evidence that they had a site on which to build, and if you do not have a site on which to build, then the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation is not going to entertain an application for a project upon which there is no site.

Secondly, with regard to the project in Charleswood, I had, as the mem ber for Charleswood, a number of discussions with regard to that group and attempted to assist them wherever possible in order to have that project come on stream, because there is a need in Charleswood for housing for seniors, but unfortunately, for whatever reason, that particular project could engender only interest for 50 percent of the units. Only 50 percent of the potential units were going to be committed to, and, Mr.

Speaker, based on those kinds of numbers, MHRC decided not to go ahead with the project, not because there was no money, because the project could not engender sufficient support. Pines Project Development Guldellnes Mr. Doug Martindale (Burro ws): I would like to ask the minister why Rotary Pines was given conditional approval when they had not followed the development guidelines, including the requirement in the guidelines to Incorporate as a nonprofit organization, and in spite of the opposition of a considerable number of residents and planners? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housin g) : Mr.

Speaker, you have to understand the process, and I would like to take a minute or two to provide that information to my honourable friend. What happens is, over a long period of time, interested groups, nonprofit groups from the community approach MHRC with the idea of having a housing project. Discussions take place-what they have to do, what the requi rements are-all of that detailed information goes back and forth between the groups and the department. What happens is, Mr.

Speaker, because it costs between $750 and $1,000 to incorporate an organization, PDF funding, the first phase, $10,000, is done in many cases on the basis that the organization has the legitimacy to apply for a nonprofit housing incorporation-on that basis, $10,000 funding under PDF for these projects to bring them along to the next stage on the basis that they have a legitimate cause with respect to the fact that they are going to have a nonprofit housing corporation. The second stage of PDF funding is not advanced until they are incorporated. *

(1355) Cancellatlon Mr. Doug Martlndale (Bu rrows): Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Housing cancel the Rotary Pines project since its location under a flight path contradicts the minister's own letter of April 11, 1991, to City Council, which I will table, in which he commits his government to a clear, strong commitment to ensure the protection of the airport from incompatible land uses? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minis ter of Housing): Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated to the House on previous occasions with respect to the airport, this government strongly supports the airport as a major economic tool for this city and this province. The Rotary Pines project and the question of the airport are two different issues. What the letter says, that my honourable friend is going to table-the letter I sent to the mayor indicating that it was my view that they ought to include in Plan Winnipeg a review of that particular process to ensure strict guidelines take place with respect to the Winnipeg International Airport.

I indicated at that time also that I would not approve any Plan Winnipeg amendments of which Rotary Pines was not one. Mr. Speaker, it did not require a Plan Winnipeg amendment, but I said the Plan Winnipeg

section on the airport is weak as far as the airport is concerned, and yet it was approved by my honourable friend, the leader of the Opposition, when he was the Minister of Municipal Affairs in 1986.

1463 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 1991 Pines Project Environmental Benefits Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question is to the Minister of Urban Affairs. In the prospectus which the Rotary Pines had distributed to potential investors in the project, they indicate that they qualify for assisted housing under the Manitoba government's RentalStart program. They go on to say, this program provides apartment housing by nonprofit organizations, such as the Rotary Club of Winnipeg-Assiniboine, with social and environmental benefits.

In light of the fact that this project is on the flight path and in light of the fact that it is also going to be commer cialized along the riverbank, would the min ister now tell us, sin ce the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings) will not conduct an environmental impact assessment, just what is the environmental benefit which this prospectus tells people there is going to be? Hon. Jim Ernst (Mi ni ster of Hous ing ) : Mr. Speaker, when senior citizens look for a place to spend their last years with us, they look for an environment that is compatible with their lifestyles.

They are looking for association with other seniors, activities associated with seniors and things of that nature. I do not pretend to interpret what the Rotary Club would put out or not put out, but certainly they do look for an environment which is compatible with their lifestyle. Mrs. Carstalrs: Noise is hardly compatible with a comfortable living environment. Prospectus Questionnair e Mrs.

Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Can the Minister of Urban Affairs tell the House why the 28 questions and answers which are included in this particular prospectus and which are supposed to give the seniors the true facts of this project do not have a single question and answer about the airport or the potential erosion of the riverbanks of the city of Winnipeg? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minis ter of Hou sing): Mr. Speaker, the public meeting that was held with regard to this project which attracted over 300 people interested in an apartment in this particular project took place at the St.

Paul The Apostle Church, immediately adjacent to the site. They know full well that it is on the riverbank. They know full well it is in proximity to the airport. They know what that project is and yet 300 appeared; 104 put their cash on the line to sign up. "'

(1400) Public Consultations Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (leader of the Second Opposition): I have a final question to the Minister of Urban Affairs. The Minister of Urban Affairs speaks about the 300 people who went to the meeting as an information meeting, some of whom went only for information purposes. They seem to have gotten conside ration from this government. Will the government give the same consideration to the 309 people who signed a petition in opposition to the project, all of whom live in the St. James-Assiniboia community association? Hon. Jim Ernst (Min ister of Hous ing): Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated earlier, we have a situation where 300 people came to a public meeting to find out information, not zoning information, not approval information, but accommodation information with regard to how they could involve themselves in this project. Mr. Speaker, 104 of them decided they would put their cash on the line in order to obtain the rights to lease one of these particular units, and I think that speaks for itself. Semen Distribution Centre Privatization Ms. Rosann Wowchu k {Swarn Ri ver) : Mr.

Speaker, once again, we see this government sacrificing the needs of Manitobans to help their Tory friends. Can the Minister of Agriculture explain why, when the Semen Distribution Centre was making money, the government has decided to privatize it to a company which is apparently owned by their Tory colleagues, a company which is not registered in Manitoba and has shown blatant disregard for government employees and facilities? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minist er of Agri cultur e): Mr. Speaker. that member puts an incredible amount of misinformation on the record.

Over the past year and a half, we have been lobbied by the farmers of Manitoba to get out of the Semen Distribution Centre, because all the centre

May 1, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1464 is doing is buying semen from the companies and selling it to the farmers. Those same companies are out in rural Manitoba selling the same semen to the same farmers at the same price. Those companies have become very aggressive in the last two years, and they have taken more and more business away from the Semen Centre to the point where we have dropped to about 50 percent, or less than 50 percent of the semen sold is actually handled by the Semen Centre. Mr.

Speaker, then we asked those five companies that are doing business with the Semen Centre to give proposals for taking over the distribution of semen in the province of Manitoba. They have responded to those proposals, and one company, which the member is obviously referring to, brought forward the best proposal. We dealt with their representative, Mr. Earl Scott, out of Alberta. It had nothing to do with dealing with anybody by the name of Holtmann, and she is acc using an association -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker, that member put misinformation on the record. She said the company was owned by Tory colleagues.

It Is not owned by a Tory colleague. It is owned by Western Breeders in Alberta who are the people we negotiated with. Correspondence Request Ms. Rosann Wowchu k (Swan River) : Mr. Speaker, will the minister today table in the House all the correspondence he has had with these firms that he has approached and also the agreement he has signed with Western Breeders Services so Manitobans can be assured that this company is not going to have special privileges by moving onto public property and not getting away with paying taxes and having benefits of Government Services? Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, I do not know where this member is coming from, what sort of innuendo she is going to put further on the record. My department staff did the negotiation. I did not correspond with those people at all, and they have struck an agreement. Yes, they are going to rent the space that the Semen Centre was in. They have struck an agreement with Government Services, and they are going to use the same phone number, so farmers, when they phone up, will be able to have somebody answering with regard to delivering semen services.

They will pay for that telephone, and they will pay for the space and all associated services that go with that space. Quality of Service Ms. Rosann Wowchu k (Swan River) : Mr. Speaker, to the same minister, the minister indicates that farmers are in favour of this. What assurance can the minister give farmers, especially through the concerns being raised by the farmers union and the KAP organization, that the quality of service would go down and costs would go up as they have in Saskatchewan because when it was privatized in Saskatchewan, costs went up 20 percent? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr.

Speaker, as I said earlier, there are already five companies offering semen services in Manitoba, all throug hout rural Manito ba. Those same companies will be there. They will be selling the same semen as they were before, and they were selling it below our prices in certain instances, and they will continue to do that. The farmers of Manitoba have lobbied us. We have consulted with them. We have responded to their concerns and their needs saying that we no longer have a useful purpose to play because we are selling less than 50 percent of the semen.

The farmers will have the same semen available from the same companies they have been buying for all along. Rural Health Care System Report Recommendations Ms. Judy Wasylycla-lels (St. Johns) : Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Health about the task force on rural health services. We have the interim report. It is a hard-hitting and very critical report talking about lack of organization and direction of the health care delivery system in rural Manitoba. It talks about overlapping services, service gaps, inability to access service and general confusion by the maze of government agencies.

We understand the minister has received the final report from this group, which is part of his Health Advisory Network. Can the minister tell us if he is prepared to table that report, and with it, will he table his plan of action dealing with the numerous and serious recommendations of that report? Hon. Donald Orchard (Mini ster of Health): Mr. Speaker, I know this seems like I am picking on my

1465 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 1991 honourable friend from St. Johns, but again she does not have her facts straight. First of all, whoever indicated to her that I have received the Health Advisory Network Task Force Report on Rural Health Services gave her misleading information. This is the same process that has been followed with every task force report. The task force holds its hearings and deliberations and writes a preliminary report.

That report is then distributed to all of those who made input to the task force to assure that their suggestions, critique and innovative proposals are properly phrased in the interim report. Those responses come back to the task force which then synthesizes them into a report to the Health Advisory Network. The Health Advisory Network then provides me with a final report, and when I receive that I will be more than pleased to make that report public. Again, my honourable friend does not have her facts straight as to the process. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Mr.

Speaker, the minister has had the interim report for six months. This report has 56 recommendations dealing with some very serious issues around the recruitment and retention of professionals, around the interfacility transfer of patients, on the ambulance system, and the list goes on and on. I want to ask the minister, surely he can now give us his plan of action in response to this serious report and some idea of how he will deal with these very serious 56 recommendations. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, as soon as I receive the Health Advisory Network report I will be pleased.

Since my honourable friend wants to know what we are doing, I want to tell my honourable friend that when I came into this government almost three years ago, the Standing Committee on Medical Manpower was woefully underfunded by the previous administration, of which she was a member. We increased the funding substantially to the Standing Committee on Medical Manpower which has allowed us to undertake a number of innovative programs for recruitment and retention of physicians and other health professionals to rural Manitoba.

Secondly, when I came into this office as Minister of Health in 1988, some three years ago, the ambulance service in the province of Manitoba, a volunteer service, was woefully underfunded by the previous administration. This government increased that funding by more than 130 percent to provide extra funding in ambulance services. That is what we have done in rural Manitoba. Health Advisory Board Reports Completed Ms. Ju dy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns) : Mr. Speaker, mainly all we have seen from this minister is study after study after study.

I want to ask the minister about all of the reports that he has received either on an interim basis or in final report form from his Health Advisory Network which includes the preventative house services for the elderly, the Health Advisory Network report on information services, the report on- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for St. Johns, kindly put her question. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: When will we see action instead of all these studies and all these words? *( 1410) Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I have received one report from the Health Advisory Network.

We acted upon that. Mr. Speaker, let me tell my honourable friend what other innovative approaches and remedies to rural health care we undertook since we have come into office. We inherited a discriminatory policy of funding health care facilities from the NOP which said if you were not a unionized facility, you were not funded the same, blatant discrimination of people working in the same position.

We eliminated that discriminatory policy primarily impacting on rural Manitoba facilities because we did not believe it was fair and equitable to pay a nur se's assistant in a nonunionized facility significantly less because they did not belong to a union with dues checked off to the NOP. Food Banks Caseload In crease Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, the current recession is most devastating to the vulnerable in our society. In 1989-90, Winnipeg Harvest served 4,000 households monthly. In 1990-91, that figure increased to 6,000.

In January of this year, Winnipeg Harvest handled 360 referrals for help, and in March that number almost doubled to 712 referrals.

May 1, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1466 Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness). Given that the amount of food distributed by Winnipeg Harvest has increased almost 6,000 percent from 247 ,OOO pounds in 1985-86 to 1.4 million pounds in 1990-91 and that 45 percent of people dependent upon food banks are children, can the minister tell these people when his economic blueprint will decrease the demand at food banks instead of doubling the need that has occurred up to this point? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Famlly Services): Mr.

Speaker, the member raises the question of Winnipeg Harvest. I have had the opportunity to visit there and to observe their operation. A number of things that struck me there is that they do have a tremendous volunteer force and provide a service that a number of people are accessing. One of the statements that stood out in my mind is that they do not rely on government and choose to proceed in that way. The member talks about the vulnerable people in society, and that term is used frequently in this House.

Our department has seen the largest increase in government funds this year, 6.9 percent, to deal with the many vulnerable people who access our department. I speak there of the people who access the social assistance, the funding we do for the Child and Family Services agencies, the increase in funding for day care and, certainly, increased resources for the mentally handicapped who are coming into our community. 55·Plus Program Delndexlng Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. BonHace) : Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is for the Minister responsible for Seniors.

As the number of people accessing food banks increases, so does the number of seniors using food banks. Can the minister explain why he would support the deindexing of 55-Plus which is targeted at seniors at or below the poverty line when increasing numbers of seniors are being forced to rely upon food banks? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minis ter responsible for Seniors): Mr. Speaker, it has been mentioned many times on this floor, the 55-Plus was not cut back. The 55-Plus was left at the same level it was the previous year. Food Bank s Seniors' Use Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boni face): Mr.

Speaker, my final question is for the same minister. The government talks about difficult choices, and we have seen the choice they have made. Why did they choose to abandon seniors in poverty and offload them onto the food banks while, at the same time, subsidize seniors who can afford to pay for their own housing and developers who can afford to provide that housing? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister responsible for Seniors): Mr. Sp eaker, on speaking to the ministers of the government, the ministers are working on housing.

They are working on our own department, at the Seniors, working on the abuse levels, monies and funding for abuse on and on throughout the departments. The seniors of this province are not being neglected. They are very well looked at by this minister and the other ministers of this government. Aerospace Industry Training Program Mr. Edward Connery (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, the aerospace industry is a very significant component of the economic activity in Manitoba.

We see the forecast of many thousands of additional jobs being created in the aerospace industry both for Winnipeg and now for Portage la Prairie with the privatization of the base. This could be very significant to Portage la Prairie. last Tuesday, the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) made a very significant announcement to Portage la Prairie and all Manitobans on the training component that will take place in Manitoba. Unfortunately, Mr.

Speaker, the people in Portage are not as clear as they would like to be on what this means for Portage, and I would ask the minister to clarify to this House and to the people from Portage what this does mean for them. Hon. Leonard Derkach {Minister of Education and Training) : I am very pleased to respond to that question because indeed this was a very significant announcement Yes, Mr. Speaker, it is true that the member for Portage did an incredible amount of work in terms of preparing the groundwork for this announcement. Mr.

Speaker, I might indicate that the training announcement that was made, some $6 million

1467 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 1991 funded jointly by the federal government, the provincial government and the industry itself, is going to mean that there are going to be significant opportunities for training in the aerospace industry in the Portage area. Indeed, as a government, it is our intention to make the Portage site a training centre for this province in the aerospace industry. Mr. Connery: Mr. Speaker, in that same announce ment, he mentioned a Red River component, and I think there are some courses going to be soon taught in Winnipeg.

Is there the opp9rtunity for Red River Community College to also participate in Portage la Prairie and maybe other rural centres? Mr. Derkach: Yes, Mr. Speaker, indeed there is going to be an opportunity for Red River Community College to participate in the training incentive in the Portage area.

I can indicate that there is a centre now, a regional centre, operating in Portage la Prairie, and therefore it will be fairly easy for us to move those courses depending on who the successful bidder is, of course, and the work that goes on with that bidder to ensure that programs can be moved very quickly and easily to the Portage area. We look forward to that kind of initiative. Women's Programs Reductions Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr.

Speaker, the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women recently released the Single-Parent Families Report, stating that 13 government departments with 39 programs have a very high level of participation by women and impact on women. Many of these same programs have been cut or dismantled entirely by this budget. Why did the Minister responsible for the Status of Women toe the 19th Century patriarchal line of her cabinet colleagues and not protect the interests of Manitoba women? Hon. Bonnie Mltchelson (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): Mr.

Speaker, I think this government's record on treatment of women in this province is commendable. I just want to indicate to the House some of the very fine things that we have done as a government since we have been in office for the last three years. One of the very significant things that we have done is increase the number of wife abuse shelters in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, under the former administration there were three wife abuse shelters, and we have increased that number to 11. I think that is a commendable record. Mr.

Speaker, we have introduced a family violence court in the Province of Manitoba, one that is very unique in Canada, that provides an opportunity for those- Min ister for Status of Women Meeting Attendance Ms. Becky Bar rett (Wellington): Mr.

Speaker, given that the Minister responsible for the Status of Women's credibility has been seriously undermined by allowing these cuts to her budget and other budgets serving women, In compliance with the Tory old-boy mentality of her cabinet colleagues, will she now at least take a symbolic stand for the women of Manitoba by not participating in tonight's event at the Winnipeg Squash Club, which is open to men only? *

(1420) Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I wish the member for Wellington would just calm down and wait for the answer. I have a great deal of difficulty with the hypocrisy of the member for Wellington when her leader, the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), used to organize the Christmas parties for the Manitoba Government Employees' Association at the Squash Club-- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Fllmon: Men and women of that organization used to find no difficulty in attending public events, attending social events at that club.

Now all of a sudden there is some hypocritical reason why, for cheap publicity, the member for Wellington wants to try and make some symbolic gesture. Women in this province do not need symbolism, they need action, and that is what they have been getting, Mr. Speaker. All they got was cheap talk and symbolism from the NDP and they are getting real action--42 percent of- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House leader): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, it is interesting when it comes to matters related to squash that we

May 1, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1468 finally get something out of this First Minister in the way of an answer, and it has taken that. I would ask, Mr. Speaker, you call him to order, because he did not deal with the question raised by this member, which is as to why they are going ahead with their actions tonight- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. *** Ms. Barrett : Mr. Speaker, I find it interesting that the First Minister has to answer a question directed to the Minister responsible for the Status of Women. That is symbolism. Budget Status of Women Ms.

Becky Barrett (Welllngton): Mr. Speaker, I would like to address this question to the Minister responsible for the Status of Women and ask her why the Status of Women budget, none too large to begin with, has been decreased in this year's budget by 18 percent and how she can support these cuts in light of the enormous increase in the needs for the women of Manitoba, as reported by her own advisory committee report which she has had for over two months? Hon. Bonnie Mltchelson (Minister responsible for the Stat us of Women): Mr.

Speaker, I do have an answer for that question because, as a matter of fact, we held the Premier's Conference for Women last year, which was a very, very successful conference in the province of Manitoba. It was a one -time initiative with a thousand women throughout the province who attended. I know that they received a lot of value for the dollars that were spent, but that is not going to be a conference that is repeated this year. I do want to say, Mr.

Speaker, that I was elected to represent the constituency of River East because the men and the women in River East constituency felt that I was the most competent and capable person to represent them. fishing Ind ustry financial Assistance Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for the Interlake has time for one question. Mr. Cllf Evans (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, since budget day, the minister responsible for CEDF gave his assurances that loan assistance for fishermen would be available from CEDF, and I quote, within a very few days. It is now 14 days, and now we understand the decision has been reversed.

MACC will continue to handle these loans. My question is for the Minister of Agriculture and good management. Can the minister tell this House if loans are available today and at the same levels as before? Hon. James Downey (Min ister responsible for and charged with the ad minis tration of The Communities Economic Development fund Act): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased the member for the Interlake has his mind on the fishermen's business other than the personal business which he is sometimes involved in which would be contrary to what the former member's question was of which he sits in the caucus with. Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable minister to deal with the -(interjeotion) Order, please. The answer to the question should deal with the matter raised. Mr. Downey: Mr. Speaker, let me make it very clear, as a result of my colleague's interest from Gimli, the questions asked by him and by the concerns brought forward, I will repeat, CEDF will be carrying out the loan activity of the fishermen's loan over a period of time, and, yes, the fishermen can go to MACC and get loans in the interim, as is part of the program that government has put forward. Mr.

Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has e1<pired. Nonpolltlcal Statements Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington) : Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Wellington have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? An Honourable Member: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Agreed. Ms. Barrett : Mr. Speaker, on May 1, 1890, the first May Day proclamation was undertaken by the American Federation of labour. The purpose of the first International Day of Labour was to recognize and celebrate the many contributions of working people to our society.

It is a time to contemplate fairness and equality for all members of society.

1469 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA May 1, 1991 The goal of the International Day of Labour is to create an egalitarian society free of discrimination, based on economic class, gender, race, religion or political beliefs. May 1, the International Day of Labour, is celebrated throughout the world, and I hope all members of this House will support the legitimate aspirations of workers and all members of our society today. Thank you. Mr. Paul Edwards {St. James): Mr. Speaker, I would ask for leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for St.

James have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? An Honourable Member: Leave. Mr. Speaker: It is agreed. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, I want to join with my colleague from the official opposition in recognizing the International Day of Labour, this being May 1. It is indeed an important occasion for all working people in this province to recognize, and for all of us to recognize, the contribution that they make to the economic growth and stability of our province. We have a work force of some 500,000-plus people.

Those are the people who make this province work, and we wantto keep them employed, as all Manitobans do, as much as possible. These are difficult times for the labour force around the world, and we are no exception in this province. That, in my view, heightens the significance of this day, and I want to join, on behalf of our party, with all of those in the nonorganized and organized work force in this province in recognizing May 1 as the International Day of Labour worldwide and, indeed, Mr. Speaker, this is a worldwide occasion.

We join with workers from around the globe today to recognize working people in this world, and we join with all workers in Manitoba in recognizing the importance of their efforts in building this province as they have in the past. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House leader): Mr. Speaker, I would like you to call the bills in the following order: Bills 5, 6, 8, 12 and 20. If there is time remaining, after those bills have been considered, I will call the Estimates motion.

If indeed there are not enough speakers-I am just starting to notice that indeed if those are all called and dealt with today that I would then go into Estimates. Mr. Speaker, I would also ask you to petition the House to determine as to whether or not there is a willingness to waive private members' hour? Mr. Speaker: is it the will of the House to waive private members' hour? No? Leave denied. *

(1430) DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS BUI 5-The Mental Health Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), Bill 5, The Mental Health Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la sante mentale, standing In the name of the honou rable member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis) and also in the name of the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), who has six minutes remaining. Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, I rise today to conclude my remarks on Bill 5, The Mental Health Amendment Act, and to put on the record my concerns and those of my constituents and colleagues about what actions this government has taken in this bill and of course in its recent budget, because the issue of mental health care is a sensitive and an important one, important to us in Selkirk, of course. We have the Selkirk Mental Health Centre, and the centre of course just received its accreditation. The hospital has a staff of approximately 450 employees and a caseload of about 300 patients.

The staff in the hospital, in the remarks of the accreditation, were commended in a number of areas, including their commitment to providing the highest standard of care to their patients, their effective interdisciplinary approach to planning programs, excellent quality assurance and risk management programs and the central role in the development of mental health care for their patients, mental health care for the centre and the province.

Because the issue of mental health care is a sensitive and an important one, those individuals who suffer from a mental health illness or who have suffered from a mental health illness have attached to them a terrible, terrible and persistent stigma, a stigma from society, one that is very difficult for them

May 1, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1470 to escape. No other illness carries with it this terrible scar, this terrible persistent legacy. Although our attitude toward mental health care is changing, it is still very much misunderstood and neglected. Of course, coming from Selkirk I have heard the rumours of patient mistreatment and abuse, of individuals forgotten by friends and by society, doomed to a life of institutions and medical care.

We have all heard of the cases of abuse dealing with massive drug injections or electric shock treatment used on patients without their full knowledge or of their understanding of the long-term effects these treatments would have on themselves. One of the sections of this bill deals with the rights of patients to refuse treatment and, if consent is not given, this legislation will require detailed records of that treatment be kept. The clinical records of an individual must include the medicine used, the method of administration, the dosage administered and the frequency of administration.

The bill also provides guidelines as to how a patient can be restrained if they need to be. These provisions, I feel, would help alleviate patient abuse. Mental health care patients are the most vulnerable patients in our health care system. They require, Mr. Speaker, special treatment, and we are glad to see that this bill does address some of these issues. However, unfortunately, this government's actions of the past few weeks will negate any gains made in this bill toward treatment of those patients suffering from a mental health illness.

The closure of the School of Psychiatric Nursing in the Selkirk Mental Health Centre will hurt mental health care in this province, and it is difficult to find anyone, anyone outside the cabinet, who considers this to be a good move. The Town of Selkirk recently passed a resolution condemning this move. The Selkirk Chamber of Commerce has expressed to me its regrets and the loss to our town and to our community this closure would cause. Health care professionals such as the Registered Psychiatric Nurses Association of Manitoba called the closure devastating to the profession.

They also continued In their remarks, that if this is the way that they intend to plan the reform in mental health, the people of Manitoba had better be prepared for some rough times ahead. Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, the people of Selkirk were not prepared for this betrayal by this government. The Town of Selkirk unanimously passed a resolution which condemned the government decision and implored them to reconsider.

The resolution noted that for over 70 years the school has enjoyed a Canada-wide reputation for excellence and has contributed greatly to the community of Selkirk, not only in human resources but also as a significant employer. It is inconceivable that this government acted without prior consultation with either the town or professional groups. In fact, the Town Council only found out about this closure through the media. It is difficult to understand why this government would cut education opportunities, especially in a program where the employment rate is 98 percent.

Why cut a program that is fundamental to mental health care reform? The lost positions, plus the contributions of 60 students, generate over a million dollars annually into the Selkirk economy. In closing, Mr. Speaker, I again urge the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), along with the Town Council, Chamber of Commerce and many other professional groups, to reconsider the closure of the school, or at least postpone it for a year. Do not close the school. Mental health care in this province will be worse off for it. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard), Bill 5, The Mental Health Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sure la sante mentale, also standing in the name of the honourable member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-leis). An Honourable Member: Stand. Mr. Speaker: Stand. Is there leave that this matter remain standing? leave? Agreed. Biii 6-T he Mines and Mlnerals and Consequentlal Amendments Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld), Bill 6, The Mines and Minerals and Consequential Amendments Act;

Loi sur les mines et les mineraux et modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives, standing in the name of the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes). An Honourable Member: Stand. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave that this matter remain standing? leave? It is agreed.

1471 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 1991 Biii 8-T he Vltal Statistics Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honou rable Minister of Fam ily Services (Mr. Gill eshammer), Bill 8, The Vital Sta ti stics Amendmen t Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les statistiques de l'etat civil, standing in the name of the honourable member for Bu rrows (Mr . Martindale). An Honourable Member: Stand. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave that this matter remain standing? Leave? Agreed. Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon) : Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to be able to rise to add my comments to the record with regard to Bill 8. As has been noted by other members in the Chamber, this is a vital bill and that fact was referenced by the minister himself when he introduced this legislation.

I would lik e to begin my re marks by complimenting the minister for bringing forward this harmonization, as he has suggested it is. I think it is important and timely and it will add to the accuracy, if you will, of the issuance of death certificates in the province of Manitoba. It will also help the department of Vital Statistics and the staff there ensure that the work that they do is accurately reflected, that the information that they provide to the people of Manitoba, to individual Manitobans who come forward requesting statistics or informa tion of a per sonal nature.

That information is accurate and recorded accurately. Mr. Speaker, I would like as well to comment, I guess, on the minister's reflection on the staff in the department of Vital Statistics. I think the minister was quite generous and quite magnanimous in his comments with respect to the staff. He notes, I think quite accurately, that the staff in the Vital Statistics branch are a professional group of people, that they perform work that often goes unnoticed, important work that has repercussions much beyond what the average Manitoban would believe possible.

The people in the Vital Statistics branch are often viewed by the public, Mr. Speaker, as functionaries, as people who simply provide birth certificates and death certificates, provide other forms to the public on an as-needed basis. I think what most people do not understand is that the "vital statistics" that are dealt with in the Vital Statistics branch serve many, many other purposes. In fact, those statistics are compiled and used by researchers, by medical facilities, by Statistics Canada and by others to perform research of one sort and another. Mr.

Speaker, we need to know what kinds of trends are out there that affect society, whether it is births or deaths or the causes of deaths. Those kinds of statistics can be used by a multitude of organizations and individuals to impr ove our understanding of our society generally and, in effect, to help us perhaps prevent deaths of one sort or another by providing some insight into what is happening in our society. Mr. Speaker, these peopl e are extre mely important and no one should forget that they do mor e than simply hand out bir th and death certificates and track simple numbers.

Those numbers translate into a statistical image, if you will, of Manitoba's society. I think that is an accurate way to put it, a statistical image of what the society looks like in terms of people entering through births and people who leave via deaths. •

(1440) Obviously, there are many other people leaving Manitoba for other reasons, about 28,000 of them last year, Mr. Speaker, but the Vital Statistics branch does not deal with those. Mr. Gregory Dewar {Selklrk): Nor does this government. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, as my colleague for Selkir k (Mr. Dewar) suggests, nor does the government deal with those people leaving the province because there are no opportunities, no jobs and no hope. I want to say that the people who do these jobs deser ve some credit and some recognition.

Unfortunately, this government has not recognized the true value of the people in the Vital Statistics branch and, in fact, have treated that branch quite callously. Most members in the Chamber will remem berthat this government decided unilaterally, without consultation, to move the Vital Statistics branch to the community of Dauphin. (Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) I want to make it very clear that the work of the people in Vital Statistics could have been done in Dauphin, that the people involved in the branch could have worked out of the Dauphin area, and I am sure would have come to enjoy and love

May 1, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1472 Dauphin and the area as much as anyone else who currently lives there. It is a beautiful part of the province, but the government, Mr. Acting Speaker, chose to unilaterally move this branch without due consideration of the professionals that the minister talked about in the branch. They moved it without considering how that move would impact on the fami lies, the friends, the relatives of those individuals, or, in fact, how it would impact on their work. (Mrs.

Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) The fact is, as we came to know somewhat later, that much of the work of the Vital Statistics branch relates to births and deaths and other statistical matters from the City of Winnipeg. The vast majority of public dealings in that branch were with the people of the City of Winnipeg. So while the government dealt with its people callously, I think it also neglected to understand the reality of the nature of the work at the Vital Statistics branch.

So Madam Deputy Speaker, I simply wanted to put that on the record because the minister, in his remarks on April 4 when this bill was introduced for second reading, at least implied somehow that the government had some respect for the people who worked in this branch. Madam Deputy Speaker, I am not certain that the government's actions reflected any great level of concern for the people of the Vital Statistics branch or, In fact, for the work that the people in that branch do.

So Madam Deputy Speaker, I wanted to add that to the record and perhaps some other member on the government side is going to stand and address those comments which are somewhat critical of the gove rnmen t's motives and the governme nt's actions. I would certainly enjoy listening to some sort of defence of the government's incompetence when it came to the treatment of the Vital Statistics branch and the treatment of the people who have provided this important service to the people of Manitoba. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to go back for a minute to talk about the work of the Vital Statistics branch.

In the act itself, in Bill 8,

Section 14 (6) outlines that no burial certificate should be provided where a person died as a result of an accident, as a result of

an act of suicide, negligence or homicide, as a result of poisoning. Madam Deputy Speaker, in general, the bill lists a number of circums tances in which a burial certificate cannot be provided until the medical examiner has issued, in effect, the death certificate.

So wh at this mea ns, and why this is important-and I relate this to the job that is being done by the people in the Vital Statistics branch-is because these are the statistics that I talked about earlier that will be used by researchers, from automakers to pharmaceutical manufacturers to design engineers to improve products, to improve the safety of our workplace, our homes and our society in general.

For example, the reporting of accidental deaths, the careful reporting of how an individual died Is important not only to the families of those involved, not only to the loved ones of an individual deceased person, but it is important to society as a whole. Not that one individual report, not that one report of a suicide or a death by ingesting poison or ingesting a chemical is of statistical significance in society as a whole, but that, Madam Deputy Speaker, is how we come to understand what ls happening in the larger picture within Manitoba society or within Canadian society.

So, Madam Deputy Speaker, for example, Vital Statistics records how many women died during pregnancy or during birth or the giving of birth, important statistics, statistics that can tell us a great deal about the state of health of people in the province of Manitoba. If vital statistics had not been kept, we would not know with any degree of certainty that Native people, aboriginal people, have a very high infant mortality rate, that Native people, Native women, die disproportionately in giving birth to children.

We would not know that an inordinate number of young people between the ages of 1 S and 25 die In traffic accidents. Now the significance of that, Madam Deputy Speaker, cannot be overlooked, because those are the statistics that are used by car manufacturers in an effort, in an attempt to make vehicles safer. Arguments are always used by legislators across the country, around the world. The accidental death statistics are used to encourage the safer design and manufacture of automobiles. Madam Deputy Speaker, the list is endless, and the examples are likewise endless.

The number of suicides, for example, in our society continues to

1473 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 1991 increase. A disproportionate number of suicides occur amongst males. In that cate gory, a disproportionate number of aboriginal people and youth are recorded in our suicides. • (1 450) Madam Deputy Sp eaker, it is the kind of information that this act is talking about that will allow us to understand in a more thorough way what is happening to our young people, to our aboriginal people, to people within our society, what is causing their death.

What factors are contributing to that, of course, cannot be dealt with by Vital Statistics, but the numbers in and of themselves paint a very graphic picture of what is happening to our society. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, I wanted just simply to say that the work that is being done should be valued not only for its accuracy, for its precision which we all want to see happen, but it should be valued as well for the contribution it makes to the impr ove men t of society generally, to the improvement it makes to our understanding of how our lives are impacted by the things we do and the things we use.

Madam Deputy Speaker, this particular act is not a very extensive act. In fact, in introducing the amendments, the minister responsible, the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer), suggests that there are three essential purposes behind the act. Number 1 is, of course, an increase in the cases that have to be reported to the medical examiner. Now this is a seemingly fairly innocuous kind of amendment, but it is important for two reasons, I gu ess.

Num ber 1 is that it harm onizes the requirements under The Fatality Inquiries Act and The Vital Statistics Act, but it is also important because it puts a greater onus on the kinds of deaths that have to be reported. Although it is not absolutely clear, I gather that this harmonization occurs not only because of a desire in the Department of Family Services and the Vital Statistics branch to harmonize what is going on with The Fatality Inquiries Act and The Vital Statistics Act, but, Madam Deputy Speaker, somewhere in the minister's remarks he references some sort of standardized reporting mechanism.

I am at a loss right now to find those specific remarks. It is referenced somewhere in either the background paper or in the minister's remarks that some how the re porting of dea ths and the cir cumst ances surroun din g de aths is being harmonized in a much larger way, not only with The Fatality Inquiries Act, but with the reporting that is used in other jurisdictions as well • The minister notes as well in his opening remarks that the number of cases where these requireme nts are now obligatory rises from nine to 22 and that they include all children's deaths.

I again, referring back to the importance in societal terms of these vital statistics, the understanding we have of how our children, as we like to say our most important natural resource, are dying, their health, their well-being should be a prime concern, so the reporting of all children's deaths are important. The deaths as a result of poisoning clearly in a society where the number of chemicals that are being used in our homes, the number of chemicals we ingest as medicines are increasing on a daily basis. The accurate recording of deaths that are occurring due to these chemicals is extremely important.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I think there are very recent examples of the medical examiners reporting of deaths due to overdoses, deaths due to the reaction of different medicines that people are taking causing death. Certainly the medical examiners, the coroners have no simple task in identifying causes of death, but nowhere is it more difficult than when chemicals are involved. What we are seeing increasingly, Madam Deputy Speaker, is the interaction of different chemicals, apparently benign and harmless chemicals, causing death.

So an individual may be on a psychogeriatric drug and ingest something as simple as a Tylenol. We can have people on over-the-c ou nter, nonprescription medicines involved in drinking alcohol, so that the interaction of drugs is causing death. The reporting of these, the defining of the cause of death and its reporting become more and more important as our society becomes more complex and as we depend, in some cases, on chemicals and synthetic drugs to provide us with medical relief from various ill nesses and afflictions.

Madam Deputy Speaker, so we also are now going to see reported de aths from contagious diseases and deaths related to employment and pregnancy. Contagious diseases may be even more important in the next decade than they are today. Of course, we have the prime example of the

May 1, 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 14 74 19 80s of deaths due to AIDS, the Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome. Here is a disease that until the late 19 70s, until 1979, essentially was unknown, that until the early 19 80s we had very little understanding of how this disease was transmitted. If you think about it, the work that the Vital Stat istics branch does is helpful in identifying syndromes that are not immediately recognizable. The medical term syndrome is used because it identifies a series of symptoms that cannot always be related to one specific illness.

AIDS is perhaps the best example, because I would be willing to bet that in North America, if not in many parts of Europe, we have deaths being reported in vital statistics branches around the world as being as a result of pneumonia. Pneumonia is often the final symptom which results in death of AIDS patients. So now wher e we have bette r rep or ti ng mechanisms, people and Individual countries, individual jurisdictions like Manitoba will be better able to track that Illness.

Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, if we achieve nothing more by these amendments than simply being able to track the deaths that are caused by the AIDS virus, we will have achieved something significant, because right now I can assure you that there are many, many people in Manitoba who have underlying fears about what kind of devastation the AIDS virus is going to do to our society. There are very few people who feel secure with the statistics that we have at hand. We do not know to any definitive degree how prevalent the AIDS virus is in Manitoba, either HIV virus or full-blown cases.

They may be more significant than we currently know. So if the provisions in this act require a more detailed accounting of the cause of death, the types of contagious diseases that are causing death, we may In fact all benefit In the long run. Madam Deputy Speaker, of course, we just the other day in this legislature expressed our concern over deaths in the workplace. We have now in Canada an official Day of Mourning for people injured and killed in the workplace. We know that in Manitoba, for example, there were seven fatalities in the transportation industry last year.

So reporting and the cataloguing, if you will, of deaths in the workplace, as is suggested in the bill, is extremely important. like other areas of human endeavour, unless we understand what is happening, what is causing the death, we cannot require or ask employers or employees, for that matter, to protect themselves.

If we do not know that people are dying as a result of the working hours of most heavy transport drivers, then we cannot regulate that or we cannot ask for more common sense to apply in the allocation of hours for transport drivers. • (1 500) In industries like mining, which I am more familiar with, deaths occur on an all too regular basis. In Flin Flon virtually every year in one mine or another in northern Manitoba, someone is killed. Only a few months ago, a young man, someone I knew, was killed by a many-ton piece of "loose" falling on the individual, a fatality which obviously is extremely distressing.

It was and is distressing for the family and for the friends of that individual, but it should also be distressing to us. Understanding the cause of death and having that reported as an Industrial accident and the cause of death reflected In our statistics is important to us. Certainly if the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr.

Neufeld) or the minister of workplace safety and health has access to that kind of information, perhaps, just perhaps, somewhere down the line we will be able to operate mines in a way that does not result in the death of innocent people doing a job trying to sup por t their families and their communities. Madam Deputy Speaker, the final area mentioned by the minister in his remarks was the area of pregnancy. I assume that this is a recognition of the continuing need to improve the level of infant mortality.

There are, I think, indications from many quar ters that while we have perhaps the best medical care in the world, our Infant mortality rate, for whatever reasons, is unduly high. In fact, there are other countries in the world, develop ed countries albeit, where the infant mortality rate is not as high. Perhaps the better recording of information related to deaths at birth or during pregnancy will help us improve our health procedures, the prenatal treatment of women or, in fact, the procedures that we use at birth.

The second significant amendment that the minister references in his speech deals with the issuance of medical certificates of death where the body has not been recovered.

1475 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 1991 Madam Deputy Speaker, this is a somewhat more difficult area for both the minister, I am sure, and the Vital Statistics branch and for us as legislators, because this gets into an area where, although I am not a lawyer, I am sure that there are repercussions in the judicial system that the reporting of deaths, where there is no body, this area may in fact compl ic ate the judic ial system from two perspectives. One, obviously we know that where there is no body there can be no examination by a medical examiner of the causes of death, we can only assume.

Now in the case, for example, of an air crash we can fairly clearly assume what the cause of death was. Obviously, Madam Deputy Speaker, we do not need necessarily to recover a body in those kinds of instances. There are other more suspicious surroundings where there is no body to recover and no examination can take place, where it may be more problematic for the department and for not only those who act under the auspices of The Fatality Inquiries Act, but who act under The Vital Statistics Act.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the minister in his remarks did not, in my opinion, adequately address what the repercussions of this amendment might be to those investigating suspicious deaths where there is no body. In Mani toba we had the circum stances only recently of a young woman believed to be murdered by her husband where there was no body recovered. I recognize what the minister is trying to do in this act.

The minister, in this act, is attempting to alleviate the problems faced by a family who may require a death certificate, who want to proceed with a ceremonial funeral, a memorial service, who want to get on with their lives. The amendments in this act apparently, Madam Deputy Speaker, are attempting to alleviate that problem. That is legitimate, and certainly members on this side-a lthough I will let some of my colleagues perhaps speak for themselves-I do not believe that we have any immediate problem with what appears to be the motive behind this amendment.

The question that I think we want to ask is: What does this do in circumstances where there is a suspicious death? How does giving the medical examiner-or allowing for the issuance of a burial permit and the issuance of a death certificate under these circum stances affect the potential trial of a suspect at some point in the future? If in fact we have issued a death certificate which says that the causes are unknown and the judicial system decides to bring someone to court to try them for a specific act, even though there still may be no body, what are the repercussions or are there any?

I am just trying to understand whether we are creating a legal problem for ourselves in passing this amendment without due reference to those kinds of circumstances. I may be off base here and the minister may want to respond at another time about the implications. Madam Deputy Speaker, I think it is important to note that, I think the overt intention is quite good and will simplify things for the relatives of deceased persons.

I should saythatthe minister did reference that there are currently avenues for relatives of deceased persons where the cause of death is unknown, but the recourse for those people is simply recourse through the courts pursuant to The Presumption of Death Act which, if there was ever an obscure act, The Presumption of Death Act has to be it, but there is recourse. The minister I think will acknowledge that what he is doing by amending this act is simply making it a little easier for families and expediting the process, if you will.

Finally, the other change that was referenced by the minister was the harmonization between The Fatality Inquiries Act and The Vital Statistics Act requiring a physician to complete the medical certificate of death within 48 hours. I understand that the Vital Statistics had no time provision, and so there is now a consistency between the two acts and that 48 hours is I guess the recommended time. I had another question.

The minister in his remarks did not perhaps deal with the substance of the amendment here sufficiently, at least for me, because I am not as familiar with The Fatality Inquiries Act as I should be. But the question was, does this time frame apply rigidly?

What happens, for example, in the circumstance where someone in the remote part of the province, someone who is not attended to by a physician-and this is partly covered by the act-b ut who also does not have access or the family would not have access to a medi cal exam iner when the indiv idua l was deceased under one of the conditions listed in the act, if the 48 hour requirement could not be met? What is there in the act which would allow, or what di scretion is there in the act, to allow for

May 1, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 1476 circumstances where, for example, someone died in a small community-it could be Tadoule lake, it could be anywhere- where it simply was not possible for a medical examiner or anyone else for that matter-atte nding physician-to determine the cause of death, to provide the details that are required by this act, either for The Fatality Inquiries Act or The Vital Statistics Act. * (1 51 0) Now I see the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) shaking his head, but these kinds of questions, Madam Deputy Speaker, have perplexed many of us in the North for a long time.

I think that if the minister Is going to amend the act, we need to have an assurance that the people in northern Manitoba and other parts of the province where there is not a coroner or a medical examiner or necessarily a physician imme diately availab le-what Is the impact of the new requirements under this act to those people? I mean, are we going to be doing this by telephone? Who is going to be responsible if the conditions of the act cannot be met? Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, there may be other sections in The Vital Statistics Act where this is covered.

It is not evident by the minister's remarks, or from the minister's remarks, nor is it apparent anywhere else in the bill that I can see, and I have read the act thoroughly. -(in tetjection)- 1 have read this act thoroughly, and I can find no reference to the kind of situation I just raised with the minister.

I will acknowledge that I have not referenced all of the amendments back to The Vital Statistics Act itself, but I had thought that when the minister was introducing his amendments, if there was any background Information that would have made these amendments clearer, then they would have been provided at that time. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) Mr.

Speaker, those ware the three areas that the minister intended to deal with in this piece of legislation, and I wanted to say that while I have raised some questions generally about the changes that the minister is proposing, I think in general we agree that the amendments are supportabl e. Having said that, I always remind people that when we are amending legislation, we can never assume that due diligence was exercised by the people who drafted the bill or by the department who is proposing it or the minister who introduced it, that al! eventualities have been covered.

That is why I am raising some of these questions at this time. It seems to me that we have an obligation as legislators to make sure that the legislation we pass is as consistent and as applicable as possible. That is why I raised, for example, the question about the 48-hour requi rements and the harmoni zation bet ween these two ac ts.

There may be circumstances where it is not simply possible and, if it is not, then let us make sure that there are provisions in the act or discretion provided either to the medical examiner or some other official to the necessary discretion so that the lives of other people are not inconvenienced by what we hope will be improvements to The Vital Statistics Act. Mr.

Speaker, the other areas that are amended I think are also important and will not only be useful to the province but, as I have said, perhaps useful to other groups who use these vital statistics for research and development of policy and product and so forth. Mr. Speaker, I had a couple of other questions relating to the introduction of this bill. The minister, in his opening remarks, did not address in any specific way who else might be affected by the amendments in this act, and it is customary, at least in my experience, for the minister to address who was consulted when this legislation was being drafted.

I think I have identified a number of groups who mi ght be inte rested in these amendmen ts. -(in terjection}- The dufus from Portage-I am sorry, Mr. Speaker -the memb er for Portage (Mr. Connery) from his seat indicates that he has not read the bill, nor is ha interested in this bill, probably not interested in the need for better information in the province, because he has never been interested in the truth nor, in fact, in my experience. The other question I had related to which group this minister had consulted with.

I assume that, for example, the medical examiners who will share the responsibility of this act with others in the Vital Statistics branch have been consult ed.. What about physicians, particularly in rural Manitoba, who have to provide, or may have to provide, burial permits and death certificates? Finally, do the new requirements require any additional fees to be charged? I think everyone in the Chamber recalls that last year, and I am not sure but perhaps even this year, there have been

1477 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 1991 significant fee changes applied to people who use the services of the Vital Statistics department. I am wondering whether these new requirements, for example the 48-hour requirement, is going to cause any additional charge. Is there going to be an additional charge because of any improved service? Are the fees that are charged for individuals looking for vital statistics going to increase?

Is the charge on birth certificates or death certificates or any other certificates provided by this branch going to increase as a direct result of any of the requirements in this legislation? Another question that should be addressed, perhaps before we finally conclude the amendments, app rove the amendments to this piece of legislation-Mr. Speaker, how much time do I have remaining? Mr. Speaker: Fifteen seconds. Mr. Storie: Mr.

Speaker, 15 seconds hardly gives me time to put all of my remaining thoughts on the record, but let me just say in conclusion that we, in fact, will be supporting the main amendments in the bill and that we will probably have additional questions. I hope the minister will take under advisement my remarks and some of the concerns I have raised, that it is possible we will have additional amendments to this legislation if we feel they are warranted, if we think they are required, so the minister may anticipate that. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for allowing me to put my remarks on the record. Mr.

Speaker: As previously agreed, this matter will remain standing in the name of the honou rable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). Mr. Doug Martindale {Burro ws): I would like to speak on this bill, Mr. Speaker. Where is my Whip? I think we need you, Whip, the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes). In speaking on Bill 8, The Vital Sta tistics Amendment Act, I would like to do three things. I would like to address some comm ents to the contents of the act, I would like to talk a little bit about the significance of vital statistics, and thirdly, I would like to talk about vital statistics as it applies to me.

I guess, in a sense, you could say I am regulated by this act so I will talk a little bit about some of the li cences to marry people and some of my experiences as being someone who has been authorized to conduct marriages in the province of Manitoba. -(in terjection)- I am going to address that. At the end of my speech I will tell you about my success ratio. "( 15 20) The amendments proposed will make The Vital Statistics Act consistent with the new Fatality Inquiries Act proclaimed in 19 90, and there will be three main areas which will be harmonized.

First of all, the Chief Medical Examiner will investigate additional types of deaths and the numbers of types of deaths will increase from nine to 22, including all children's deaths, deaths by poisoning, contagious diseases, employment and pregnancy. A second change is that the time for the medical examiner to issue burial permits will be changed from 14 days to 48 hours.

Thirdly, the medical examiner will be able to issue a medical certificate of death in some cases where the body has not been recov er ed such as drownings, plane crashes or others where the relatives would have to go to court to get proof of death for legal purposes. There are good reasons for all of these changes. Therefore, our party will be supporting these changes. There are reasons for supporting these changes. The first reason is that the two acts will be harmonized. We support the harmonization of The Vital Statistics and The Fatality Inquiries Acts. Secondly, the process will be humanized.

We are interested in doing anything which humanizes legislation, which makes it easier for the public to deal with the requirements of legislation. I think one of those has to do with being humane in dealing with people who are bereaved. I know, for example, of a young person who drowned while sailing in the South Pacific and the body was not recovered. It was very difficult for the family to deal with. From time to time those things happen, and the sooner and the more easily that a death certificate can be obtained, the better it is for the surviving family and relatives.

Thirdly, the increase in the types of cases to be investigated will add to our body of knowledge. By adding additional types of deaths to be investigated, perhaps we can help in finding a cure or in determining the social aspects of certain types of deaths. So if this aids in medical research, then that is a good reason for amending the act. Vital statistics have been and continue to be important for a number of reasons, for recording births, marriages and deaths. They are also

May 1, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1478 important for providing proof of age. From time to time people need that to get an old age pension, for example. So if they have lost their birth certificate, they can go to the department of Vital Statistics and get that information in order to get old age security or other benefits to which they are entitled. People use vital statistics for genealogical research. Somet imes that is not available in government sources, so they go to the church and they look for baptism records, death records and marriage records.

I have been involved in helping people to do genealogical research and also to find information that is not in government records. Basically, in our church we just refer them to the archives. -( interjection)- Yes, that is right. The honourable member says from his seat, we are providing a community service. I would be happy to say that our church does that at no cost. Some churches have a fee for doing searches, but ours does not, at least in Manitoba Conference at the present time.

So we would refer people to the United Church archives to have a search done for baptism records or whatever kind of records people need, and then a certificate is made out. Usually that is considered adequate proof by whomever is requiring the information that what happened actually did happen on a certain date and a certain place and a certain time, but sometimes those records are not available, because they have been lost or because a church burned down or records were destroyed in some way.

Then people are out of luck, and they have a much more difficult time finding the kind of proof that they need, and probably at greater expense, because probably then they are looking at getting affidavits sworn and legal fees would be involved. The third area I wanted to address is that of those people who are authorized to officiate marriages under The Vital Statistics Act. I am one of those people, and I think it is an interesting process. I would like to just outline how it works and some of the things that happen.

Normally a person needs to be ordained in their church or tradition, and then what the church does is, they supply a list to the department of Vital Statistics, who then issue a certificate authorizing that person to officiate marriages. Every year they automatically send out a new certificate to officiate marriages, but they keep the same number. I think my number is 871 0 from the Province of Manitoba. It is not always ordained clergy who are authorized. Sometimes it is lay people, depending on their tradition.

For example, I was recently at the Unitarian Church, and the particular Sunday that I was there they designated two lay people, two lay women, who had been chosen by that congregation to officia te ma rriages for people in their congregation, and they were authorized by the Province of Manitoba to officiate marriages. If you meet the requirements of your church, then the church sends a list to Vital Statistics, and they mail out a certificate with a number on it, and then the minister or lay person is authorized to officiate marriage.

At the time of marriage, the clergy person or lay person becomes an unpaid civil servant and has to collect certain documents and forward them to the government. After the wedding is over and the documents have been signed by the minister and the bride and groom, it is normal to collect the marriage licence, but it is not required. Many people do not know that, but you can get married in the province of Manitoba without a marriage licence. It is something that not many people take advantage of, and instead they go and they fork out $10 or $20 or whatever the fee is these days, and they buy a marriage licence.

There is an alternative. The alternative is a proclamation of banns, and that used to be quite common. I can remember when I was growing up, when I was in high school, the banns would be read from the church pulpit on Sunday morning. It had to be read three Sundays in a row in the church that the bride and gr oom att ended, but there we re requirements and there still are requirements for the reading of banns. The requirement is that both the bride and groom must be in regular attendance at church.

If you were in regular attendance, the minister or priest can read the banns of marriage three Sundays in a row from the pulpit, which is just a public declaration that these people intend to get married on such and such a date, such and such a place. Then they do not have to buy a marriage licence-save a little money, save the minister some hassle, save the rigmarole and get married the same as anyone else, but without some of the paperwork. Unfortunately it is becoming very uncommon.

I have been licenced to officiate marriages for 16 years, alm ost 17 years, and have not been able to read banns even once in those years, because I

1479 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 1991 have never officiated for two people who are regular in attendance who wanted to have banns read. In fact, you could get a lot of very interesting information from Vital Statistics. For example, on the registration of marriage form that the minister must fill out, they have the left column for the groom and the right column is for the bride. You have to list their name and address and their parents and the mother's maiden name and all of that sort of thing. So if you look at the address, if the people are honest, you know where they live.

I would say that within the last two or three years, 10 0 percent of the people I have officiated marriage for are already, according to the addresses they are giving me, living together at the same address. An Honourable Member: One hundred percent? Mr. Martlndale: The member opposite asked me if it is 10 0 percent. I am sure that in the last two or three years, and I have only done maybe a half a dozen, maybe eight marriages, all of the people had listed the same address, the bride and the groom.

So you can find some very interesting social trends in registration of marriage forms, because I am sure if you go back 50 years, you would not find quite so many people living at the same address before marriage. Since I have pointed out that I am one of the people who are licensed to officiate marriage, I should also say that I am following a tradition of people who have worked in the same place who have also been authorized to officiate marriage. My immediate predecessor, Reverend Bill Blaikie, is authorized to officiate marriages in the province of Manitoba.

Before he was elec ted as the memb er for Winnipeg-Bird's Hill, originally he was the minister on the staff of North End Community Ministry. The Honourable Bill Blai kie, the now mem ber for Winnipeg-Transcona-and Reverend Bill has kept his status as a minister authorized to conduct marriages. In fact, the other day he asked me if I would fill in for him and I said no, but he and I are still retained on the roll of Winnipeg Presbytery as ministers, bona tide ministers in the United Church of Canada. Our names are therefore on the list of ministers authorized to conduct marriages in the province of Manitoba.

From time to time, we get asked to do so. An Hono ur able Member: This is all very interesting, but why do you not get down to the guts? * (1 530) Mr. Martindale: The honourable member was not listening. I have been talking about the bill the whole time. There is another person who also represen ted part of what is now Bu rr ows constituency, the Honourable Stanley Knowles, who was and still is a United Church minister.

I saw him just a few weeks ago at Lions Place and he is still on the retained list of Winnipeg Presbytery, even though he resides in Ottawa, and over the decades that he was a member of Parliament from 1942 to 19 84, with the exception of one term , he continued from time to time to officiate weddings. Another person who worked out of the same building that the Honourable Bill Blaikie and I worked was the Reverend J. S. Woodsworth.

At the time that he worked at All Peoples Mission, also known as Stella Mission, from 19 07 to 19 13, he was a Methodist minister and authorized to conduct marriages on behalf of the Methodist Church. So we have a tradition going here, begun by Reverend J. S.

Woodsworth and continued by Stanley Knowles, who was the minister of Mclean Mission on Alexander Avenue, which is now in Burrows constituency, and then the Reverend Bill Blaikie, now the Honourable Bill Blaikie, and continued by myself, formerly employed by North End Community Ministry and now the member for Burrows, but still authorized to conduct marriages in the province of Manitoba. Manitoba is not the only province that I have been authorized to conduct marriages in.

I had a licence in the province of Saskatchewan for four years and had five congregations. i was much, much busier in Saskatchewan because I was in pastoral ministry. I have co-officiated two weddings in the province of Ontario on a temporary one-day licence. If you are authorized in one province you can ask the church to write to another province and they will give you a one-day temporary permit.

So I am pleased to say that because of The Vital Statistics Act of Manitoba authorizing me to conduct marriages here, I was able to co-officiate the wedding of my brother Bob in Ontario and my sister Bev in Ontario, as well. I could only do that because of The Vital Statistics Act of Manitoba. When I first moved to Manitoba I thought, I am not sure that I want to be authorized by The Vital Statistics Act to conduct marriages in Manitoba because I was afraid that my wife's relatives and

May 1, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1480 maybe political friends and others would ask me to conduct marriage -(interjection)-well, they did ask me. So for the first couple of years I was not on the list. Then when somebody would ask me and I wanted to make an exception I would have to get on the United Church list. Then they would have to write to Vital Statistics. Then Vital Statistics would have to send me a certificate to officiate marriages. Once it happened for a wedding in Ontario and the secretarial staff said, Doug, this is a real hassle, please do not do this to us.

Why do you not just get on the permanent list and then we will be saved the trouble. So out of consideration for the secretarial staff I said, okay, put me on the permanent list. Since about 19 82 or 19 83 I have been on the United Church permanent list in Manitoba. -(interjection)- The honourable member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Connery) said my wife's relatives are good people. Yes, one of them did ask me to officiate a wedding. It was up in the constituency of Dauphin last summer and we enjoyed ourselves very much. It was a wonderful wedding ceremony.

From time to time interesting things happen when you are officiating marriage. The first wedding that I had in Eatonia, Saskatchewan, I was rather nervous. I was holding the wedding book and you could probably see the pages moving because I was shaking so much. I was so nervous that I actually missed two pages in the ceremony when I was flipping pages -(interjection)-well, at least I had the right part of the book -(interjection)- that is right. It was a bad omen because one of the members asked me what my rate of success was.

Now, as far as I know, everyone I have officiated for is still married, with one exception. That is the first couple that I married in Saskatchewan, and that is the one where I skipped a page in the wedding book by mistake. So it did turn out to be a bad omen. -(interjection)- Well, I do not personally take responsibility for that, because I did not do the premarital counselling. In all the other cases I did the premarital counselling, and all those couples are still together to the best of my knowledge.

Some day I want to go back to Eatonia, Marengo, Flaxcombe, Alsask and Mantario, Saskatchewan and find out if those couples are still married so I can talk about my success or lack of success in officiating marriages. An Honourable Member: Alsask, I know where Alsask, Saskatchewan, is. Mr. Martindale: I am glad that one of the members recognizes Alsask. It is one of the few places that people know about who are out of province because it is on the border. It is where our radar station used to be, right? Until they closed it down.

I was actually asked to be the Protestant, civilian, officiating chaplain at Canadian Forces Station Alsask, and they would have paid me $325 a month from the Canadian Armed Forces for doing absolutely nothing, and I am happy to say that I turned it down and saved the taxpayers some money, and they hired somebody else probably. They needed someone because there were people stationed there.

The problem was, the civilian chaplain would go to the chapel on Sunday afternoon about two o'clock and the only person who would sho w up would be the Lieutenant-Colonel and maybe one other person, and they felt it was not worth going ahead with the service for us. They would go to the Lieutenant-Colonel's house for coffee, and the minister would get paid non etheless and he would be available for emergencies and would be able to provide counselling if that was necessary, but I do not think it happened very often.

It is very hard to get referrals from people when you are never around and do not get to know them on a personal basis as I did the good people in Alsask, Saskatchewan. On another occasion, I had a wedding in Saskatoon and I was kind of late and I forgot my shoes, so I had to buy a new pair of shoes in Saskatoon. It might have been the same wedding, I am not sure, but I forgot my clerical collar. Well, there are ways of getting around these predicaments. I suppose I could have borrowed one, but we were running short on time, so we had to find a piece of white cardboard.

Now I cannot remember whether it was a piece of white cardboard from a cigarette package or from some other kind of packaging, but we did make a white collar out of cardboard and stuck it in my collar and got through the wedding okay. I did tease the couple. I said I was not sure that this was official or not, because I did not have my real collar, but they nonetheless are still together as far as I know. Some day I would like to go to Vital Statistics in Regina and look up my own marriage registration,

14 81 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 1991 because the requirements, at least in Manitoba under The Vital Statistics Act, are very precise. There are good reasons for having precise regulations under The Vital Statistics Act. For example, if someone is born in a rural area, Vital Statistics wants to know on the regis tration of marriage form what the corridor and the

section and the township and range are of the birthplace, and quite often people do not know that, so you have to ask th em, and they ask their parent s or grandparents, or if they do not know where their parents were born, they have to go and ask: Where were you born, what was the quarter, the section, the township, the range that you were born?

So when I was getting married, in the summer of 19 73, I was actually living in a manse beside Foote-Copeland United Chur ch near Dafoe, Saskatchewan, but the minister was a little sloppy in filling out the forms, and so he put down that I lived in Toronto, and I had never lived in Toronto until that time. There were other things that Vital Statistics might consider to be errors in the registration of marriage form. My wife tells me that I promised her the moon and she promised me nothing.

I tell herthat it is probably not a legal registration of marriage, but we have survived 17 years in spite of those very minor problems and, as the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) says, 17 very good years. I would second that thought, and I think my wife would as well. I think I have come to the end of my speaking notes, and so I am going to conclude now. I was given some notes to help me to speak, but maybe I will just pass these little notes on to my colleagues, and they can continue and add the remarks that I was not able to get on the record this afternoon. I believe that vital statistics are important.

It is for that reason that in our church, for example, we require people like myself who do not have a congregation, to covenant with a congregation so that records are duly recorded, and that records get put in the archives so that when people are doing searches for vital statistics information, they can find those vital statistics, either in the church archives or in the Vital Statistics department of the government. Sometimes people do not do that and that causes problems, maybe not today or tomorrow, but it might cause a problem when someone turns 65, for example, and they need proof of their birth.

If that is not readily available, then they are going to be looking for proof of baptism. So with those few remarks, Mr. Speaker, I will conclude and yield the floor to someone else. Thank you. Mr. Gary Doer (leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, this is the great assembly of debate. .. (1 540) Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minis ter of Energy and Mines): What are we doing here? Mr. Doer: Well, the member for Rossmere (Mr. Neufeld) from his seat may not understand this, but this is not the mother of Parliament. This is one of the sons and daughters of Parliament, being In Manitoba.

The mother of Parliament, of course, is Brit ain. They deba te these issues in a parliamentary democracy. It is rather fitting that we are debating vital statistics today in this Chamber, dealing with democracy in a democratic form. It is important, Mr. Speaker, that bills of this nature get our full and complete discussion and debate.

Yes, at times it may appear-and I am reacting to the member for Rossmere's comments-to be a slow and laborious process, but we could go to the system of dictatorships in other countries that many of our forefathers and foremothers fled from, where they have a very quick way to pass laws. You do not have debate. You do not have Parliaments. You do not have oppositions. You do not have other parties. You do not have people dissenting. You could pass bills like this with a stamp. You could pass them as quickly as the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr.

Ernst) passed the project that we are questioning in this House. -(interjecti on)- Oh, I am sorry. I want to speak on the principles of the bill. In this democracy, bills take a couple of months of debate, discussion, to ensure that democracy and the public interests are served in the debate and, hopefully, ultimately in the decisions that are made. -(in terjection)- Well, the member raises a point about Bill 88. I thought it was rather curious in speaking to the principles of Bill 8 that we would talk about the principles of Bill 88, because I remember at that point the Liberal Justice critic criticizing-- Hon.

James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General) : No, I did not. Mr. Doer: -criticizing the amendments that were made by the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) on the drinking and driving bill. That is fair debate in a

May 1, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1482 democracy, but then I found it rather ironic that when the Liberals brought a bill forward, it was 75 amendments to about a 12-page bill. That was Bill 88, I believe. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Bnkster): The government screwed up bad. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I think the member for lnkster (Mr. Lamoureux) commented that the government -(interjection)- Yes, I do not want to follow the advice of the Liberal House leader, but the government did not practise good parliamentary drafting.

I was surprised the member for lnkster would point that out, because he should recall that was the former liberal member for Seven Oaks, the one Mark Minenko, allegedly a lawyer, who prepared the first bill and then prepared the 75 or 80 amendments to Bill 88. So I was surprised that the member for lnkster would criticize his old colleague. I think they even sat pretty close to each other at one point. Did you not sit- An Honourable Member: Side by side. Mr. Doer: Side by side, I thought so. I am just trying to go by memory.

There were about 75 amendments, as the government Transportation minister has pointed out, to that bill, which is a good indication to all of us why we have to be so careful and so thoughtful in legislation that is before this Chamber. I know that the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gllleshammer), In the introduction of this bill, would want us to practise that same procedure.

Now I have some former government attachment to the Vital Statistics area, because I was the Minister of Urban Affairs and I was at the opening ceremony for a branch of government that was located in the same area where the Urban Affairs division of the government was located in, a building called the A. A. Heaps Building, a beautiful and magnificent building.

I think the former Minister of Government Services will recall that it was a beautiful old bank building around the turn of the century that was built in our province, which was renovated to allow for Vital Statistics, particularly on the main floor, to be located in that building. (Mr. Bob Rose, Acting Speaker, in the Chair} It was renovated, I believe, to ensure that the public had access to their records, to their vital statistics, that the public had access to those records in a storefront operation, Mr. Acting Speaker, in a way that would allow full public access to those documents.

I was theref ore very surprised when the government made an announcement to move those records and those people to an area outside of the downtown area of the city of Winnipeg, given the demographics and statistics of our own province. That is not to say that areas outside of Winnipeg need and should not have em ployment and positions moved to them, but it seems to me that there should be a logic behind the decisions. They should not just trickle down through departments, you know, and sort of have a decision-making process that looks more as if it is out of an Edward G.

Robinson movie than it is out of intelligent government decision making. let me say why I thought that looked like an Edward G. Robinson movie, because when we analyzed last year-and some of the members, it was before their election-where the statistical deployment of employees was going, we found a high correlation between the muscle and power that we perceive to be in cabinet, rather than the statistical analysis and statistics that would be used to analyze decisions for the economic performance of the province in the movement of positions In our economy. The member for Pembina, the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard), is considered by us to be a strong member with very high elbows in the Conservative caucus. lo and behold, when we analyzed how many positions were moved to the member for Pembina's constituency, we found, in an area that was 7 percent unemployment rate at the time the decision was made, and a growing constituency, we are talking about statistics, a growing constituency in terms of population and in spite of depopulation in rural Manitoba, we found 50 or 60 jobs to that area. Then we looked to some adjacent seats.

In fact the minister responsible for decentraliz ation seemed to do pretty well under our calcula tions, aga i n an area th at had about 7 per cent unemployment, southwest Manitoba. Then we looked at areas such as the Interlake, and not just NOP areas, we looked at areas such as lac du Bonnet, we looked at areas such as Swan River, at that point which was held by the former member, Mr. Parker Burrell, and we found again there was no relationship between economic statistics and the demographic decisions of the government. For

1483 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 1991 example, the unemployment rate was much higher in northeast Manitoba than it was in southwest Manitoba or southcentral Manitoba. There were four or five positions moved by the government of the day to the Beausejour and Lac du Bonnet area, in spite of its higher unemployment rate, than the 70 or 80 positions that were moved to the member for Pembina's constituency.

Then we looked at the memb er who was responsible for decentralization and we looked at the Interlake area represented by both the New Democratic member at the time and a member from the government bench, the government Whip. We found an unemployment rate of 12 percent at the time the decision was made. The statistics showed a 12 percent unemployment rate, and yet very few jobs were moved to the Interlake. Then when we looked at the member for Swan River'scommunity,a 14 percentunemployment rate in the Parkland region, we found only five jobs moved to the Swan River area of the province.

So we came to the conclusion-- An Honourable Member: No Repap. Mr. Doer: Well, I will stay tuned, that is all I will say. An Honourable Member: Are you speaking for the bill? Mr. Doer: I beg your pardon? An Honourable Member: Do you favour the bill? Mr.Doer: lw ill getto that inmysummation. lw ould not expect the member opposite to bring a bad bill forward here in his first piece of-is this your first piece of legislation? -{i nterjection)- I will have to check my notes and see if I contradicted myself.

So we looked at Swan River and a 14 percent unemployment rate had four or five jobs moved to it, compared to the member for Pembina (Mr. Orchard) getting 60, 70 jobs. So we came to the conclusion that it was really the muscle, the verbal skills and power in the Tory cabinet, Conservative cabinet, that determined what jobs were moved outside of the city of Winnipeg and what jobs were kept inside the city of Winnipeg.

It did not have anything to do with logic. * (1 550) Now why, for example, were we moving the area of Vital Statistics outside of the city of Winnipeg when I think you could have been looking at, before this last budget, decisions to move, say, Natural Resources to Dauphin. I always believed the Parkland area is an excellent place for Natural Resources' positions. An Honourable Member: Well, it is pretty good in Nee paw a. Mr. Doer: Mr. Acting Speaker, the member says it is pretty good in Neepawa.

He has not heard yet from his constituents who will be coming forward who traditionally kept their farm going because they had a seasonal job in Hig hways and Natural Resources. There are a lot of farmers out there who traditionally relied on 14 or 12 weeks of work from the provincial government. They relied on 12 or 13 or 14 weeks of work to keep themselves and their farms going in tough agricultural crises. When the government talks specifically about 950 job positions being lost, it is a lot more people, Mr. Acting Speaker, than those numbers of 950.

If you take one seasonal staff year, that employs three seasonal employees through the 12 and 14 week period in Highways and Natural Resources. The minister knows this. He is probably getting calls now: I have been called back for the last 20 years to do maintenance, what is happening this year? Oh, you were cut from the government budget, sorry. Well, who is going to do the highway maintenance? We contracted that out. How is that going to save the city money? Well, it really is not, but we had to look like we were saving money on the budget on the one end. How is this going to work in terms of my Highways?

Well, it is not because they are going to start getting worse and worse and worse. Mr. Acting Speaker, those jobs that the minister just talked about from his seat, the member from Neepawa-not Neepawa, Ste. Rose, I am sorry. I am biased toward Neepawa. My grandparents were from there and I have to confess a certain amount of emotional attachment to the community of Neepawa. -(i nterjection)- Well, it does have something to do with the statistics that I am coming to because statistics are a very, very key and important point of everything I am raising, because everything I am raising is tied to statistics.

The un employment rate in certain areas of the pro vince, the decisions of the government which are sta tis tical decisi ons -(interjection)- Mr. Acting Speaker, we will see over time. The member for Portage-I wish Portage la Prairie was as successful . Quite frankly, notwithstanding who

May 1, 199 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 14 84 is in government, I wish we were more successful on the Portage base. I wish we had closed the Downsview base in mid-downtown Toronto instead of the base in Portage la Prairie and the Kapyong barracks in Winnipeg. Notwithstanding partisan politics, let us face It, we are all Manitobans first. When we look at the statistical decisions of the government, we find there is no economic analysis at all. Surely the government, if anybody, should be using statistics to make decisions.

I asked the Premier in his own Estimates about whether the government-it ties into the comment from the seat of the member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings)-1 asked the Premier in his Estimates whether statistics w

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-2-34
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 2nd hansardpdf 34.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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