S • FORTY -FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF H NEWFOUNDLAND Volume XLI First Session Number 39 :VERBjrTiMJU'pCRT ,(Ha usard) Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush Thursday [Preliminary Transcript] 23 November 1989

The House met at 2:00 pm. correction in tomorrows edition to point out clearly that that is • MR. SPEAKER (Lush): misleading because., of course, Order, please! MHAs did not endorse the Wells position, only the Liberal MHAs endorsed the Wells position ['1.1.] MR. SIMMS: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS: Neil I want to raise this as a point - it will be up to the Speaker to rule whether it is a point of order.

But certainly it has occurred in the past w h e r e Members have risen on a point of order to clarify statements in newspapers w h i c h h a v e appeared incorrectly. So I want to take • advantage of that. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is on a point of order. Yes, the guise of a point of order, or whatever Your Honour might rule eventually. However, in today's edition of The Evening Telegram page 3, Thursday, there is a headline that talks about the singing, the shouting, the flag waving, which T. have no difficulty with. But the s e c on d a r y lie ad 1. 1. ne s a y 5 'M H A s endorse Nells position.

SOME HON._MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the people responsible for the headline to p e r h a p s put a . Li November 23, 1989 Uol XLI SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER As the hon. Meiriher sort of suggested it was not ii point oF order, it was a point of explanation, clarification. Statements by Ministers MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. t h e M i n i s ter of Development. MR. FUREY Mr. Speaker, I ann pleas ed to announce today that. two new innovative firms, X . L .

Helmet Lt.d and Grove Telecornununications Ltd. are currently establishing in the Gateway Enterprise Development Centre in Port aux Basques SOME I-ION. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FUREY: the prc'vi.nci.al.ly--ownecl small business incubator mall. tocat:'E.d in that town SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIREY Mr. Speaker, the Province current:l.y h a s two small. business incLibatc'r rnialj.s located at Port aux 13asquts and Pasadena, These facilities were constructed uhde.r No. 39 Ri

. the Federal/Provincial Industrial Development Subsidiary Agreement II, in order to assist small manufacturers and technical service firms to get established and survive the difficult initial years during which so many small businesses fail.

The incubator mails provide below market rental rates and shared services to their t.ëi nant s Business counselling to the small business tenants is provided by development officers at each of the malls My Department in conjunction with the Newfoundland and labrador Housing Corporation provides the ongoing financial and Administrative support required to operate the incubator malls at Pasadena and Port aux Basques.

The most recent tenants for the Gateway Enterprise Development Centre in Port aux Basques are ideal condidates for an incubator setting and offer very significant economic and employment benefits to that community. X. L. Helmet is a growing innovative manufacturer of plastic products such as safety helmets and product containers . The company had its origin in Ontario in 1985 and has been attracted to Port aux Basciues by the availability of a s killed workforce in the area as well as the excellent facilities and services available at the Gateway Enterprise Development Centre.

Local development groups in Port aux Basques have been very aggressive in their efforts to e.ntice new and established businesses into the town, Mr. Speaker, The XL. Helmet project is a prime example of how these efforts , when combined with Pro vi. n c :1. a 1 a 1 ci Fed e r a 1. support, can pay dividends. Grove Telecomiriunications is a Newfoundland firm which for the past several years has been almost exclusively dedicated to the development of technology applicable to the Province's fishing industry. One of Grove's innovations is the FMS 1000, a fish monitoring system for use in fish processing plants .

This system has a demons trated ability to achieve marked imprc'vement.s in productivity within these proces sing plants . It is this technology which will initially he brought to the full c 0 Inn C r c i a ii. z a ii on s t a q e a I: 1: he Gateway Enterprise Devel.cpirft.rit.. Centre to initially service markets throughout all of North America. Further innovative systems developed by Grove such as the EMS 2000, a fish monitoring system designed for u s e onhoard fishing vessels, are scheduled For future production at this facility in Port a u x Basques . COmbined, Mr. Speaker, The X . I ....

Helrmiet. and Grove Telecommunications proj ects will provide a total of upwards to one hundred full time jobs to the Port aux Basques and area residents who have been so adversely affected by the closure of the Newfoundland Railway and by recent cutbacks on the part of Marine Atlantic.. Projects such as these dispel the notion that sophisticated manufacturing can only be successful in rnaj or urban centres .

Port aux Basquesis not a large centre by mainland Canada standards but it has the l<'?I advantage of being strategically located to service inarket,s throughout. eastern North Anie rica I am confident that further announcements will, be forthconuinq in the very near future on other innovative firms establishing in Port aux Basques to capitalize, on the strategic advantages whicF the area possesse.s . Mr. Spealer, I ccimmencl the efIcirts of the Port . . L2 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI No. 39 R2

.1 . aux Basques people, and the MHA for the Port aux Basques area for his diligent and hard work, and, Mr. Speaker I commend the Channel/Port aux Basques Community o i v erg if i c at i. on C or po ration in particular, towards the diversification of their local economy. The Department of Development looks forward to a continued cooperative relationship with development groups in that area toward meeting our mutual obj ective of strengthening' and broadening our economic prospects a n d our economic base..

Port aux Basques efforts toward economic development reflect an underlying attitude which is completely in tune with Government s philosophy on the economic development of the Province overall SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hoar, hear! MR. FUREY Government recognizes that r es p0 n sib ill ty for t lie e c 0110 m i c development of Newfoundland and Labrador is not our exclusive domain. Local communities and development groups must also be strong driving forces if there is to be long term success for our people,. in a broader, stronger economic base. As more and more communities duplicate Port aux.

Basques' aggressive and creative diversification, much progress wiJ.l :i.ndeecl be made in the future. Mr. Speaker, this Government is very h a p p y to welcome t h o s e two new companies and on behalf of all Members we wish them very well in the future SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl. MR. WINDSOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We welcome this announcement, of course. We are delighted to se these two companies establishing in Port a u x Basques . I am familiar at least with one oF them .

Grove Telecommunications is a very innovative and energetic company which has established here in the Provincc.. It is a n a t i v e Newfoundland, in fi:ict at riend of nine from childhood, who started that company . 'F h e y are a good example of how Newfoundland Firms can, indeed, develop technology. We often think that we cannot do it and that we have to import technology but his technlogy, , that was developed in the first ins tance for the Newfoundland market, a n d now they are moving into the export business. We can, once again, show that we c a n export technology and they are to be congratulated. X.L.

Helmet Ltd. is an Ontario firm, as I understand it, and again this is a fine example of imnport substitution. No doubt there are many helnletis imported in this Province and we are ddighted to see that that type of safety helmet and other plastic products can now be manufactured here and substitute therefore for , products that are being iinpor'ted , and create employment here. These two companies are to be congratulated, Also, to be congratulated a r e the. Local Development Associations that were instrumental in attractinq those'. two companies to •, Port aux Basques .

The Minister' a n d the Member for LaPoi]é (Mr. Ramsay) L3 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI No. 39 fl

I should not be so quick to take credit for something that came about as a result of a Federal/ Provincial agreement which we signed in 1980. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WINDSOR: I remember the skeptics at the time who said incubator malls will not work . You certainly cannot do it in Pasadena . and you Cannot do it in Port aux l3asques. Do you know where they wanted to put at, Mr. Speaker? Hon, gentlemen opposate may not believe this They wanted to put it in Mount Pearl. AN HON. MEMBER: Oh! MR.

WINDSOR: The.y wanted to put it in Mount Pearl because they said, if it has a chance to work, we should make it work where it has all the best possibilities first; and I said no, for two reasons. SOME HON, MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WINDSOR: First: of all it would be looked at as political pork barrelling, and I do not want that to interfere with this good opportunity. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WINDS DR Secondly, I said, le.t us. put it to the test. If we can prove it will work in Pasadena and Port aux Basque s then it can work almost anywhere. A n d i: t hi n k we nec d more..

I think we need one in Windsor. My friend from Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) will confirm that one in Windsor would be an ideal way to get that industrial park going. And there are other areas in the Province where this concept can work . It is an ideal concept. It is much better than putting false subsidies into companies that are not viable and cannot stand on their own two feet, and, by creating a False economy, we keep them here for awhile, allow them to get into debt, and then they go totally bankrupt.

Here is an example of where we help a company by creating an economic climate that make.s it attractive for compaTries Lo establish and to do business in Newfoundland and Labrador, give them an opportunity to yet on their own two feet and then they can stand and be good viable corn pan i e s con t r i hut in g to t he economy and the employment situation in the Province, no thanks to . the Minister and no thanks to Dr. House and his band of merry men, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! - Oral Questions MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR, SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

RIDEOIJT: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. the Minister of Fisheries. . . Lii. November 23, 1989 vol XLI No. 39 R1

The Minister will be aware, no doubt, that yesterday in this House, the Premier, in response to questions, confirmed that maybe as many as 6,000 people or so could he displaced in the fishing industry over the next while in this Province, as a result of cutbacks and downsizing of the industry. The Minister also knows, Mr. Speaker, that for the first time in five years, at least, to this moment, the Pro vi n cia 1 Go v er n mont is riot participating in any way in the Fishermen's Response Program. Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the.

Minis ter whether or riot this year' s lack of involvement by the Province, in any way, for the first time in five years, in this e. me r g e n c y r e 5 p o n s e pro g r a in i 5 anothe.r indication of the Province's commitment to downsizing the fishing industry? MR. SIMMS: A good question. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: The answer, Mr. Speaker, is obvious. No. MR. SIMMS: You do adriFt you are not participating. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. t h e Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Spaker, the.

Minister must know, and Members on the othe.r side of the H o u s e roust know, because we are certain].y receiving the calls, hundreds of calls a day from all parts of this Province, 1 5 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI complaining about the criteria for this year's Fishermen's Response program. Members on all sides of the House, Members in Ottawa - if you watched Question Period last night - and it is all over. People everywhere are calling, wanting to know a&out t h e. restrictive criteria that has been put in place this year for this emergency response program. Now, I want to ask the Minister, Mr.

Speaker, how are those fishermen and plant workers going to survive this winter if they c a n n o t get erployment For the short—term on those response programs and, more importantly how are fishermen going to he around next year to take part, and get ready to take

part in the fishery, if they cannot qt. crop 10 y me nt on t ho s e e me r go n c y response programs for this year? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! - MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER Mr. Speaker, we have made representation to the F edo r a 1 Minister concerning the criteria that ha hc.en est:hlis hed F o r, fishermen to qualify f o r , t h e assistance, and we have been told by the Department that the $5 million that has been allocated to lock after the program will, in their view be adequatc., and that if it is not, the.n there is a good chance they will make more funds available.

MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Le.adeH of the Opposition. No. 39 RB

. if, RIDEOUT: Speaker, it is easy to say that $5 million will be adequate when probably one—third of the people in this Province who need to get on those programs, probably not even the one—third will qualify, because of the restricted criteria that has been placed on the programs . That is the problem, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, let inc ask the Minister this, Is the Minister and this Government going to devise some components that this Province can partielpate in this program. For the first time in Five years we are not participating.

Is the Government going to have some compassion and participate in this program, or is the Provincial Government saying to the fishermen and the fish plant workers that you can face welfare for the rest of this year, and then not be ready to go into the fishery next year? Is that the message that the Minister wants sent? SOME HON, MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon the Minister of Fisheries MR. N. CARTER Mr. Speaker, .1 can only repeat what I said a moment ago, that is a Federal Program.

That fact that the Federal Government has made that program available indicates that they are now wiiinq to accept the responsibility for what caused the problem. From where we stand, it appears that the program will he adequate to look after the needs of the fishermen who will need assistance. We have been told by Ottawa, by the way, that in cases where it is not adequate, the necessary changes will he made, certain flexibility will be built into the system and that if more funds are necessary, more than likely, it will be available. MR.RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

RIDEOUT Mr. Speaker, the Minister must have earplugs -in if he is not hearing from his own people - the Member for Eagle River (Mr. Dumaresque ) , the Federal Members of Parliament, Mr, Rompkey, Mr. Simmons, Mr. Baker, people who are tearing the world apart, but nothing from this Government a n d this Minister, to have changes made. Now, Mr.

Speaker, let me ask the Minister this: How can the Minister square his lack of action today and the Governments lack of action today, with his calls from the past, demanding that t h e Provincial Government always participate, and we did for five years, but he demanded that the Provincial Government always

part i ci pa 1: e in ti OS C C me r g e n c y response programs How can the. Minister sit there and say nothing, when he was demanding for years that the Province participate in those programs? SOME HON, MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. N. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member is saying what we have b e e n saying and I have communicated to the Federal Minister that there are c e r t a i n r e s t r i c t i on s 1. n t ha t r L6 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI No. 39 R6

program that are unacceptable. But I should remind the hon. Member, Mr. Speaker, that it is his friends in Ottawa who impose those restrictions and maybe he should be making representation to the Federal Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and to his friends in Ottawa. Dumaresque) should take h i s frustrations out on his own Minister who is the Minister of Fis heries for Newfoundland and Labrador. SOME_HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! . - MR. MA1IHEWS After three weeks, Mr.

Speaker, in this House we have had to rerrvi'.icl the Minister that he is the M i n i s t e r of Fisheries for Newfoundland a n d LahracIor M'y question to the Minister and to the Government is this: In the Liberal election platform and promises, the promise was made to develop and implement • a workable catch failure insurance or assistance program for fisherme.n in this Province - ad with a picture of t h e Premier in the corner here. .

That hundrcds and thousands of fishermen a n d fish plant workers in this Province r e a d thi.s d u r i n g the eTl.ecti'on and consequently :r would think that some of them were persuaded to vote. The crisis in the fishery this year is because of a catch failure, where fishermen have less income because of lesser amounts of fish caught, which consequently impacted on fish plant workcr's because there was less Fish to process.

Will the Minister stand in the House of Assembly today and honour the Liberal Party l commitment to, at least, in some small part - I am not aski.ricj him today to announce a catch Failure insurance program - but It ostancl in his place and announce a Provincial Coy ernme nt. A s s i stance Program to complement the Federal Emergency Reponse fisherme.n s P r o g ram? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOLJT: We have, but you are the Government. MR. N. CARTER: We have, too, Mr. Speaker, and we a r e waiting on final word back from the Minister. But would the hon. Member: Mr.

Speaker, suggest that the Province now jump in and start throwing millioas of dollars at a program - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes, yes! Mr. Speaker, if they do riot want an answer I will be happy to sit down. Are they suggesting that the Province - MR. RIDEOUT Yes, yes, we do suggest that. Because you demanded it when you were over here. Hypocritical to the highest degree. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Grand Bank MR._MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, MR. DUMARESQUE: The problem is with the criteria. MR. MATTHEWS: 0.

The gentleman for , Eagle River (Mr. 1-7 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI No. 39 R7

. MR. N. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries MR. N. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I suppose every communication we have had with Ottawa in the past seven or eight months , we have talked about the nee.d for a catch failure insurance .We have talked about the need for improvements in the UI fund, as it relates to fishermen. We h a v e reminded Ottawa of some of the inequities in the present system. And to answer th -e hon. gentleman's questions, Mr. Speaker, yes, we have made strong representation to Ottawa to have some kind of a catch failure insurance implemented MR.

RIDEOUT: Why do you not go up to Parliament and get it, boy! MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Grand Bank. MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have been in this Assembly, I think it is about eight years now, and I have never seen a Minister with a c r i s i s as serious as this one is, and you can laugh all, you like, but the people in Lord's Cove and all the Northern Peninsula and the Northeast Coast do not think it is a laughing matter because SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR._MATTHEWS: - you are starving the greatest percentage of them in two ways; you are not providing them with food for this winter and you are straying them out of the fishing industry for next year, because they cannot afford to get back in. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear; hear! MR. MATTHEWS: My questions to the Minister, Mr Speaker, are: Everyone in this Province it seems, except the Minis ter, h a s realized that t here has been a serious fishery problem in this Province since 3 un e..

Why did not the Minister have a program developed to come into effect, a contingency plan propertly thought out in conj unction and in co—ordination with his Minister of Iinemploymen t, to help the fishermen a n d fish plant workers in this Province? Why did he not have a program ready to go? T h e s e are the questions MR. N. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, MR.SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries MR. N. CARTER The friends OF ny coD ... ::'agues opposite in Ottawa, Mr.

Speaker, when the Premier and I went to Ottawa on August 23, I believe, it was, and presentd a case for Newfoundland in terms of a short term and a long term solution to some of the problems, as keel that we refrain from making any public comment on ii:. So we held hack at the request of the lion. MEmbers' friends in Ottawa. But., Mr. Speaker, there is a plan oF action in place. A plan c ic'[':jC)n has been Financed by the Federal Governmrimt and rightly so, b e c a u s e . 1-8 November 23, 1589 Vol XLI No. 39 R8

[1 C the Federal Government, Mr. Speaker, in so doing are acknowledging that the crisis in the fishery in terms of the depletion of the resource is their responsibility. And they have implemented now a program, it night not answer all of the problems or solve all of the problems, but certainly we have been told that it is going to go a long ways toward it. And so • we will have to wait and see what happens, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: I'he hon. the Member for Grand Bank MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Before asking my final supplementary I would lust like to say to the Minister of Fisheries that they are friends of mine in Ottawa when they do something right for this Province,, and when they do not they are not friends of mine. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MArTH ENS It seems obvious, that fo "this Party and this Opposition to get answers in this House we have to bring in the real Leader of the Government the hon. Dr. House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MATTHEWS: My supplementary to the Minister; in light of his refusal over the last number of weeks to bring in a program to compliment the Federal Emergency Response Fisheries Program, the Premier has made reference over the last few days to the fact that he wants people to do something meaningful in the Province .

As a component of the Federal Program, the few fishermen and fish plant workers who qualify under the very harsh guidelines, the programs that they are going to participate in will not he meaningful, because the material component provided by the Federal Government only allows For $:25 per work week for' materials , which means that a lot of the programs, in essence, are not going to accomplish very much in infrastructure for fisheries a n d other stuff around the Province.

Will the M i n i s ter rake a commitment that he will implement a material component to compliment the Federal Program, even though it is as restricted as it is, so that those few fishermen and fish plant workers who qualify under the harsh guidelines, and since he will not bring in a Provincial program, will he make a comnii bient to bring . in a material component such as has been in existence for the last four years in this Province, to compliiient t h e Federal Program? Will he at least do that little bit for the fishermen and fish plant workers of this Province? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. N. CARTER: i: do not know what is getting into the hon. Members opposite to he suggesting that the P r o v i n c e of Newfoundland now undertake a program, given the f:'act that the Federal Government is quite willing, quite able, and certainly better, able than we are, to fund the program. There is a 1-9 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI No. 39 R9

relatively small program in place now where we do top—off certain grants with a material component. that' program is in place and people who request help under that program will be considered. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. Mary's - the Capes. MR. HEARN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When this Government cancelled the Private Sector Program, throwing hundreds of people o u t of work, the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations promised to create even better programs to employ more and more people. I ask her today, where are those programs now, when they are needed? SOME.HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, MS COWAN: I did not hear the first part of his question. I am sorry. It is very difficult to hear. MR. SPEAKER: Maybe the hon. Member would like to repeat the question? MR. HEARN W h e n t h e Private Sector Programs were cancelled, forcing hundreds of peopleS. out of work, we were promised by the Government and by this Minister that new programs would he developed to employ even more People. . I ask1 in :1.ight of the present unemployment situation, where are the programs? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations .

MS COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As the hon. Member would know; having been a Member of Cabinet in the last Government, obviously try Department is in t he process now of preparing programs that will be considered in the preparation for ne*t year's Budget. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. Mary' s -.1 he Capes. Mr. Speaker, the difFerence between the former Government and this Government, is that our Government introduced prc'grams when they were needed , and -jf there had to be a special response pro g rain i t w a s i n rod u ce d immediately.

I ask the Minister, for all the people who are being starved out of the fishery by this Governmnent, intentionally starved out of the fishery, and realizing that the present Federal Programs are inadequate to address all the needs, what is the Minister going to do to make sure these people are employed so that they can stay at home rather than getting on buses, boats, and trains and heading for Toronto? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MS COWAN: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment, and Labour Relations SOME HON, MF:MBF::RS Oh. oh! - MR. SPEAKER: . LID November 23, 1989 Vol XLI No, 39 RiO

. Order, please! The hon. the Minister. MS COWAN: One of the things that our Government had the foresight to do, which the past Government did riot, was t o create a Department of Employment SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! AN HON.MEMBER: Way to go! MS COWAN: The second part of the question, as to what I am doing, I am supporting . the Minis ter of Fisheries. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker, may - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. Member will wait until recdgnize him, please, I am sure. The hon. the Member for St... Mary S The Capes. MR. HEARN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I ask her, when constituents call, not only my constituents - I know of at least four Members who had calls during lunch hour, looking for information on the Fishermen's Response Program, telling us they cannot get on the program because they did not have X numer of weeks in the fishery, simply because. there was rio fish, rio other reason. So, 1 ask I'ier, when constituents call who have not had a cent of income sa,rice early June, not a cent., who realize they cannot get on these programs, and who ask, 'What is the Provin': [al Government going to do for us? what can we tell them? SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear; h e a r ! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister for Employment and Labour Relations MS COWAN In the first place, I am on] y aware of one call that came to my office regarding this, and that particular call, since I was not present, was referred. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition H0L se Leader. MR. SIMMS Mr. Speaker, I want to go to another Minister, perhaps one who might be able to rrcuide an answer, on an entirely cliff erent subject.

I want to direct my question to the M'inister of Education, It is a follow—Lip to a question i attempted to as 1< him on Friday OF last week, with respect to the f e e s v e r s u s contributions issue.., an i s s u e that is of importance to all eclt.icaLors and No. 39 Ru SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HEARN: I was in a bit of haste to remind the Minister that back in our day, we also had a Department - we called it labour and Manpower in those days, and it did the same lob as the Minister's did. In fact -.,, it did it much better. . Lii November 23, 1989 Vol XLI

[1] all parents, I guess, in the Province. Just a brief background, as I said on Friday. In some school handbooks there is a course fee that is listed, and, in many cases, it does not clearly spell out that these fees are actually meant to be contributions, rather than mandatory payments . And I said then, I was not suggesting that parents stop their voluntary contributions, in fact, I encouraged them.

But, my questiOn to the Minister on Friday, which he took f i v e minutes to answer, a n d I think, if Ir ead H a n s a r d correctly, he never did answer, is this: I will say it slowly for the Minister - Are parents who cannot afford the course fee aware that they dq not have to pay it? And, are they aware of the fact that it is voluntary? That is my question, short and simple. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education DR. WARREN Mr. Speaker, I would like to -go back and give a little bit of the background from last week.

Local parents,- students and teachers raise a great deal of money in this Province locally, at the school level, a b o u t $5 million last year, to supplement provincial grants and to supplement local taxes. Some of that money is in fees. And there is some confusion in certain parts of the Province about whether these are, legally applied or not. There are areas where we have had some indication that parents have as keci for, clarification of whether the fees are in accordance with the law. I do n o t know how many have contacted [fly office, hut a few have, and I have informed them that

Section 100 of The Schools Act, Subsections S and 6, address this. These sections suggest that compulsory assessments cannot be charged where there are school taxes; that boards can charge fees for use of facilitis and for school—related activities out of school hours; that they can charge fees for public exams, for school lunches , within school hours ; that there are some charges for hooks and consumable learning resources that can he applied , and that there are other fees that may he approved by the Minister. Mr.

Speaker, we are in the process of making su'e that eve.ry parent in this Province realizes that no child should he denied access to an educataonal program because of inability to pay fees. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. WARREN Mr. Speaker, I do not k n o w how many parents are aware or unaware of that, but the Department of Education is taking action to ensure that every pare.nt is aware of that fact, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. he Oppcsition I Iouse Leader. MR. SIMMS Mr.

Speaker, if that. is accurate I would like my first supplementary question to a s k the Minister' to tell me what kind of action they are taking, because it is quite clear that had this nssue not. been raised by an industrious reporter with the Grand Falls Advertiser a n d other Grand Falls media, the lkelhood is that this probLem would have gone on far , too long - The situation is, since it was S S L12 November 23, 1989 Vol. XLI No. 39 R12

. .1 . reported, one of the schools out there has in fact changed the wording in their hand books so that, that oversight has been corrected and another school intends to do it, •so they are to be commended. My question really is, and I want the Minister to answer it in a little shorter form, I would like a briefer answer, 1 want him to tell us what kind of action he is t a k i n g to ensure that this problem does not exist all across the Province, because right now we are dealing with the matter in central Newfoundland as was raised .

I would like him to tell me if there are any instances where kids or stude.nts have been denied a c c e s s to a course, I want him to tell me that, have there been any instances where students have been denied access to a course if they cannot pay a fee, and therefore not get a proper education and secondly, whether or not any students have been denied academic results, as a result of this particular problem. Can the Minister answer those questions. Since he is going to take a long time to answer them I might as well ask a long question. MR. SPEAKER: T h e hon. the Minister of Education DR.

WARREN: T h a t Was to be my first point, Mr. Speaker, I wish the Member would ask a short., question, if he did he woujd get a short answer. Mr. Speaker, my ofFicials are. d o i n g two things . . We are examining School Board Regulations to see what is in place throughout t h e Province to guarantee that these F e e s are seen t.o he contributions and number two, we are developing our own se.t of guidelines to distribute to School Boards to ensure that in the future this L13 November 23, 1989 vol XLI would be clearly understood. One guideline I have already mentioned.

As to whether or not students have been disadvantaged as a result of this, I am n&t aware of any students who have been denied access to specific programs because of these fees. Teachers tell me they go out of their way to treat people equally, particularly students who a r e disadvantaged, and I am delighted to hear teachers say that, because that is consistent with the Liberal philosophy of equalily of educational opportunities SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear I DR. WARREN: And teachers and School Boards are guaranteeing our Department that they are not denying access to programs because of these fees.

I do not know of any case either, Mr. Speaker, where a student has been denied access to or academic records as a result of this or results, and if the hon. Member has any evidence of that, I would like him to pass it to me and I would investigate it immediately. My final point, Mr. Speaker, I am delighted that the reporter in Central Newfoundland r a i seci this i s s u e a n d I congratulate the media in this regard. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. The Opposition House L.. cad e r MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Minister, of course, should give some credit to the Member for keeping the is s u e. alive SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear,, hear! MR. SIMMS: No. 39 R13 [1

Mr. Speaker, a short supplementary, a short, short supplementary. That is my

preamble. The Minister has now said that he was not aware of any situations where students were denied access to a course. Now that is contrary to the information I have because I understood the Minister was aware of an incident, but YOU say you were not aware of an incident, not made aware .The question I want to ask finally, Mr. Speaker is t h a t according to the Schools' Act, it says that students cannot be forced to p a y school fees or course fees in areas where there is a School Tax Authority.

I am wondering if the Minister might have some ulterior motive, here, and whether or not there might be some consideration being given, to abolishing the School Tax Authorities, in order to allow these fees to be forced upon parents MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education DR.WARREN: I do congratulate the hon. Member for his initiative in this regard. Mr. Speaker on the question of where school fees may he applied, i think it is a matter of how the term school Fees is defined. A school fee in the law, it is my understanding, is defined as a compulsory payment.

These fees that are charged at the school :ieve.l arc not compulsory payments On the question of the school tax, Mr. Speaker, a n d the hon. Member says they have been imposed, I would like to see the letter. Perhaps there has been a letter to my ofFice on this, I will check it, and if I find anything to the contrary, I will correct my 114• November, 23, 1989 vol XLI earlier statement. On the question of school taxes. Does he want a short answer on this one or a long answer? - MR. SIMMS: A short answer. DR. WARREN: A short answer on such a complex is sue as this. Mi'-. Speaker school taxes are now under review.

In the election we promised either to abolish the school tax or reform the school tax, the process is ongoing and as soon as we make a decision we An.il let the people OF the Province k-now, In the meantime, Mr. Speaker, I want to inform every person in the Province that school taxes are. legal payments a n d we would cerfainly encourage everybody to pay these taxes so that education can proceed over the next feAI months, while we are discussing this issue. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for, 'Iorngat Mountains MR.WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Premier. - Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the Premier advocated a provincial water a n d s e w e r c or po ration tAj he r ci n 1 a r g e a n d small communities , rich and poor communities could share the financial burden, and on Monday of this past week the Minis ter oF No. 39 R14 .

. Mines and Energy released a report on the cost of fuel and utilities for Newfoundland and Labrador, which shows a tremendous difference in the cost of fuel and utilities on the Island portion of the Province, as compared to the Coast of Labrador. Would the Premier take the necessary steps to create a provincial fuel and utilities corporation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier, PREMIER WELLS Mr. Speaker, maybe the hon. Member has a point with respct to utilities.

At the moment on the Island part of the Province there is uniform electricity rates, except in the diesel areas where the basic rate for a basic supply of electricity, which we just increased I believe during the last budgetary process, is an equal rate, even though it is generated by diesel and higher cost diesel generation, there is an equalized rate for the basics, then once you get beyond the basics there is a higher rate.

Frankly, I would like to see us be able to implement a proposal whereby the utility rates , the hydroelectric utility rates throughout the Province, are the same, Labrador and the Island part of the Province, in general, costs are about the same. As far as Labrador itself is considered, at the vcry least we h a v e to try and work a situation where all of the utility rat. es in the Coastal areas of Labrador are about t h e same as ±hey are throughout the Province But in Western Labrador I am reluctant to suggest that they should pay the same rates as the rest of the Province.

That is the one area where the people of Labrador have LiS November 23, 1989 Vol XLI a bit of an advantage. I do not think it is right to take it away from them. This Government's position, Mr. Speaker, is that where the people of Labrador can get some advantage, we should not take it away from them and equalize it throughout. MR. WARREN: supplementary, Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon the Member for Torngat Mountains MR. WARREN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

In ny supplementary question the Premier partly answered it, maybe we can consider Happy Valley Goose Bay and consider Nain, where the electricity rate cost to the consumer is approximately 4 L ...nes more per kilowatt h o u r for a p e r s o n in Nain who uses more that 750 kilowatts compared to a person in Happy Valley - Goose Bay. Now, I ask the Premier my supplementary question, if he is interested in having uniformity throughout the Province, surely goodness he should c (:) i s i d (.1 rthe electricity that is consumed in St.

John's, in the Western part of the Province, in Happy Valley Goose Bay and on the Coast of Labrador, and remember at the same time that those who are earninq the less are paying the most. So I a s k the Prenmri,er to come clean, and iF he wants lo give ihe people a real change in this Province, have a uniform electricity rate also, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. No. 39 Rib L

.. PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, if I recall correctly, I do not know if it has been announced or not, we probably hide all our good deeds and do not announce them, which is a mistake on our part. I think we should be announcing them more often. cost electricity, I think they are deserving of it and they are entitled to the benefit of that lower cost electricity, because they have to pay higher cost for , travel and transportation and everything else. So it is u n f a i r to deprive them of that, and we do not intend to. AN HON.

MEMBER: (Inaudible) PREMIER_WELLS: We have not been announcing it I think, in the last few weeks we have authorized or provided for a situation where t h e c a r i b o u plant in Nain coL.IlcI have equal access or fair access to electricity rates, the same as other fish plants along the Coast. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! PREMIER WELLS That is - an action that we took that the former Government did not take. We saw to it that there were equalized rates. AN HON. MEMBER: It was not there. PREMIER WElLS: Yes, it was . Indeed, it was . The plant was there. Anyway, Mr.

Speaker, we did that to provide fair treatment for the people of Nain. We are going to provide fair treatment and do everything possible to ensure that everybody on the Coast of Labrador are treated fairly. We do not intend to take away from the people of Labrador one of the few advantages they have, in the areas where .they do h a v e it. In the few areas where they (JO have it, the loujer SOME HON, MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has claps ed On behal F of hon. Members I would like to welcome to the gaLlery the MP for l3onavista Trinity Conception, the hon.

Rear AcliTliral Miff lin SOME HON. MEMBERS:- Hear, hear! -. MR. SPEAKER: I would also like to welcome to the galley the Deputy Mayor of Corner Brook, Priscilla I3utcher. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister oP Pores try and Ag ri culture MR. FLIGHT Mr. Speaker, I wish to table as was required by the appropriate. legislation the fol].owing Financial Statement.s a n d Annual Reports. They are The Livestock Co rope ii s a ti o n 13 oar d F i II a ii c l.a 1. . L16 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI No. 39 R16

Statement to March 31, 1988; The Newfoundland Crop Insurance Agency Financial Statement to March 31, 1988; and The Newfoundland Crop Insurance, Fifteenth Annual Report for the fiscal year ended March • 31, 1988. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! •MR. SIMMS: It i.s the best speech that the Minister has made in the House. MR. SPEAKER: At ......... Point the Chai.r would like to announce, not the appointment of a committee, but certainly the assignment to a committee, a special assignment, and this is re broadcasting.

Both sides of the House have agreed to the principle of ID road c as t i n g u id e r t lie procedures that we now have in this House which is radio, and • they have agreed to that principle, but they have agreed to place before the Committee of Privileges and Elections, the responsibility of looking into drafting up rules and regulations governing this procedure. The Members of that Committee are the Member for Eagle River, the hon. Mr. Dumaresque; the Member for Port au Port, the hon. Mr. Hodder; the Member for Ferryland, the hon. Mr. Power; the Member for Bonavista South, the hon. Mr.

Gover; and the Member for Pleasantuille, the hon. Mr. Noel. Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR.GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, S 1-17 November 23, 1989 Uol XLI Services and Transportation. MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday in my absenc.e I understand ther.e were a couple of questions asked the Premie.r which I will now answer. One was from the Member For, Kilhride (Mr. Aylward) concern:tng the Be]]. Island ferry. The contract F o r the construction of the Bell Island ferry was signed on May 26, 1989.

The second part, t h e needs of the Bell Island, Fogo and Change Island ferry servi ce.s , are currently u n d e r review. H F. will soon be making a reconnnenclátion to Government on t h e best route to follow. And I hope to he able to announce a decision in t h e nQ.ar future. Then as to the time that the f:crry will be completed? Officials of my Department were in Marystown last week . T h e c o n s t r u c Lion of the ferry for Bell Island is proceeding on schedule. The vessel is scheduled for •completion in August of 1990. I think it will, be on the Bell Island service by the end of September. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. GILBERT: The second question that was asked was from the Member for Menihek (Mr. Snow), concern:ing the w:i.nt.er maintenance of t h e Trans—Labrador Highway. First OF all I point: out to the Member that, as I am sure he is aware, the d i s t a n c e from Labrador City to Churchi] 1 Falls i s app r ox i ma tel y 235 k 1 1 0 me t e r 5 and there is c'nl.y 145 kilometers of this road completed to date. I announced a contract in the House.. two weeks ago, and there wil1 be a bridge constructed across the No. 39 R17

Ossokmanuan River at which time the complete road will be open, and I imagine we will then be carrying out an assessment to see the possibility of providicig winter maintenance on this road. At this time there is certainly no funding in my Department's budget to perform winter maintenance on this road. It is really only partially completed at this time There is maintenance there in the summertime now which is provided on a contract basis, and there was never any provision made for winter maintenance, but the pro v i s i. on of wi rite r ma i nt e n a n c e will certainly be considered once the road is completed.

At this point, no, there is no funding to provide a winter maintenance for this year. Orders of the Day MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader. MR. BAKER: I intend to call Motions 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9, which are all first readings. I wonder is it possible, rather than go through the complete procedure for each of them, to simply read them all at the same time? Is that normal practice in the House, Mr. Speaker? AN HON. MEMI3ER: You can, but you will need the permission of.the Opposition. MR.

BAKER: I am sure the Opposition is in an excellent mood today, inuch better than yesterday, I might noi.:c., and I ask the Opposition if they would agree to speeding up t h i s procedure for us? MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, we have been waiting some time now for the Government to act on a commitment to establish a committee to study House rules, and I have had some conversations with the Government House Leader with respect to that.

If speeding up this process will enable the Government House I..eader to speed up his own actions with respec tto appointi ng that Committee, we would certain]y have no difficult in agreeing. We should have the Bills read, that is all, but we are quit.e prepared to let it all go through that stage without having to, go throu'jh the whole rigmarole, but we siiouJ.d read them all. We will do that assuming the Minister will, before the day is out, hopefully . , appoint that Comrnittec' .. on House Rules Sc' we can start getting some work done on it. I know he wants to. MR.

SPEAKER: I take it that it has been moved and seconded, or there has been unanimous agreement that we take Motions 1 through 9, excluding Number 2, for the benefit of Hansard. to be read a first time. All in favour, 'Aye SOME HON. MEMBERS: 'Aye'. MR. SPEAKER: Against, 'Nay', carried. On motion, Bills No. 37, 36; 35, 34, 41, .48, 'IS, 43 read a Virst time .ordered read a second tune on tomorrow. On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker, leFt the. Ch:r, Committee of the Whole . 1-18 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI No. 39 R18

MR. CHAIRMAN (Snow): several months since the change in Order, please! . Government. Bill No. 43. MR.CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl Resolution . That it is expedient to bring in a measure further to amend The Loan and Guarantc.e Act, 1957, the A c t. No. 70 of 1957, to provide for the advance of loans to and the guarantee of the repayment of bonds or debentures issued by or loans advanced to certain corporations MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the resolution carry? The hon. the Minister of Finance DR. KITCHEN Mr. Chairman, this is a routine Bill to add to the

schedule a list of loan guarantees that, have been either extended or put in place during the past several months. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Opposition House Leader. MR, SIMMS: Mr. Chairman, I am sorry I did not hear the Ministers explanation, Would , he mind briefly explaining again what this 8ill entails. It will just take us a moment. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Finance DR. KITCHEN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, this Bill is of a routine nature. What we are doing here is adding to the

schedule a list of loan guarantees that have been macic, new ones made or extensions givc.n in the timing or in the amounts, over the last MR. WINDSOR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Just a few words on t.hi.s , and obviously we cannot: disagree with the purpose for these, although we do not have a lot of detail on the particular loan guarantees . I think there a r e three new ones here the Fogo Is].and Co-op Maybe the Minister would like I:.o g i v e us some more information on the ned f o r $1.75 million For Fogo Island Co ....op?

When we supported the Co-op we h a d loan guarantees in place b e f o r e and, if I am not mistaken, some of those are extended here in Clause 4. (inaudible) Mechanical Limited is a new company, I understand, maybe the Minister could tell us s o m e t h i n g about that and €he rationale for that par tic u 1 a r one. But other than that we can certainly support this The key point I want to make is that Go v e r nFn e it ha s r e c 0 g n i. z cci that loan guarantees are a va.i Id and important. part of GoucrnrIIE:•nL. s assistance For indus try .

It is interesting to s e e that the Premier now has changed the position that he had before he became Preurier when he said that he would no h o n o r certain loan guarantees, I trust now that tilt? f:i.nancial community has reqai n e d their confidence in this Government, that t h i s Government will indeed honor loan guarantees that are duly given unde.r the authority t h a t is vested in t h e c;ouernrnent . ' I am pleased to see. the Government is still utilizing this particular method of hei.plJ1cj 1-19 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI No. 39 R19

industry. So perhaps the Minister could give us some information on those particular ones that I requested? PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Chairman, before the Minister gives that answer I would just like to correct the gross misstatement. Only incredible lack of knowledge or, an atterript to mislead the House. I do not know which, but only that could explain those kinds of comments. I never at any time said there was anything improper about using loan guarantees where it is necessary or appropriate. But to keep piling millions upon millions, upon millions into Sprung is madness, utter madness. MR.

WINDSOR: You found out that we were right PREMIER WELLS: No. We were right. MR. WINDSOR: A good viable industry (inaudible) PREMIER WELLS No. We were right. It should not have been done in the first place, Mr. Speaker. There is $22 million of the taxpayers mone.y gone. into that crazy scheme that the Government promoted and spent $22 million of taxpayers money on, and the hon. Member stands in the House and makes that kind of silly statement that he made today. Mr. Speaker, t h e.

Government is aware that on occasion it is necessary and desirable to provide support to industrial enterprises, Fishing enterprises or other industrial enterprises in the Province, to give them the kind of as sic tance that they need to establish a viable industry, and the Government is happy and anxious to do it where there is a reasonable prospect of it being successful. But, Mr. Chairman, we are not going to go on the madcap spending spree that the former Government was on when they did riot: know how to say no to any PC MHA who wanted a guarantee for some outFit an his District.

We are going to treat the taxpayers of this Province with a good deal more respect and concern, and ensure that when we. provide financial assistance -by way of guarantee or dir ect. c a s h payment it will he d o n e on a considered b a s i s that properly assesses the reasonable chances of viability of the project, and if there is a reasonable chance that it will be viable and t h a t it c a n either promote the creation of new jobs or perserve existing jobs, then the Government will clearly support t h e g i v i n g of such guarantees.

Because it is desirable to promote the economic development in the Province. But to make the kind of unfounded, inaccurate statement that the hon. Member just made .that kind of comment needs to he corrected SIMMS: Mr. Chairman, MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS Mr. Chairman, I would not have. made a comment on t h i s either,. expect for the Premier s comments and intervention. But now that he has, I mean, i think his comments bear rebuttal.. It is quite unFair of him, I believe, Mr.

Chai rinan to suggest that the previous Administration, of which many of 1_20 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI No. 39 R20

. r L . us were a part, provided loan guarantees to assist companies merely because it was in an area represented by a PC Member. I mean that is totally unfair and totally inaccurate. In fact, to use the Premiers oft used term 'It is absolutely false. It just is not true. There were many loan guarantees, in fact, Mr. Chairman, t h e r e is one here refePred to in this bill, the Fogo Island Cooperative. That was not a District held by a PC Member. It was a District held by the former Member, who we understand may he in line for a position fairly soon with this Government.

So I mean what the Premier said is just not true. And his comments cannot be allowed to stand on the record without at least somebody rebutting them and that is what I am attempting to do here today. I do not want anybody to think that every time the Premier speaks he speaks absolutely the gospel and the truth, because that is not so. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Finance DR. KITCHEN: I would like to s a y by •way of

preamble that,and I said it before, the difference between the way we operate and the way that they seem to have operated is that we are extremely careful with our a lon guarantee program. We scrutinize the applications very carefully. We look at the possibilities oft he loans being repaid . And that is when we will put up a guarantee. The success rate of the past Administration is pretty abysmal really. But I .hope that our success rate may be better.

We cannot be sure, of course, until we have had some time seeing how these things develop. - I would like to say a few words about I have been asked to make some comments about the particular loan guarantees that were made. Coady s Mechanical Lirrv ted caine to us, and it is an interesting facility located in Stephenville. which is attempting to expand, and it has been doing some good work. We looked at it carefully. We looked at their marketing plans and so on, and it looked like it was a very Sound well ...managed company which needed some working capital, and we went .....there and guaranteed the bank.

Now on the Fogo Island Cooperative it looks like there are three, but actually there is only one. Because they nee.ded $1 million for a short period of time. So we put $1 million there for a short time and then we said well, at the e.nd of September we will cut you down to $500,000, and at the end of October we will cut you down to $250,000, and then it will expire on the end of November, and as of now that particular loan guarantee has -expired. But they still have one that the prrvi.ous Aclmu,nis tration put :i.ni place, I think it is for $1 . 5 million. A n d that seems . to be a sound enterprise.

And I certainly go along with what was done before This seems to he a very worthwhile enterprise and is a co --operative venture that seems to h a v e, done reasonably we].]. this summer. Now, the Oceana Sea-food Processors Limited: This is a loan guarante.e for a group in the Twillingate area who needed a bit oF working capital guarantee, and we were very pleased to put that in place We fee]. quite qc'od about L21 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI No. 39 R21

. that one, as well Then, the Torngat Fish Producers Co—operative Society was another. What we did there was replace the previous loan guarantee. Now, there ara a number of others mentioned there later on in Sections 2, 3 and 4, and the notes to the Bill explain them fairly well. I do not think I will read those. On motion, resolution, without amendment, carried. On motion, that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. SNOW: Mr.

Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to it reFerred, have directed me to report that it has adopted a certain resolution and recommends that a Bill be introduced to give effect to the same. On motion, report received and adopted, resolution read a a first and second time A bill, 'An Act To Amend The Loan And Guarantee Act, 1957", (No. 2) (Bill No. 15). On motion, Bill No. 15, read a first, second and third time, orde.red passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 15). MR. BAKER: Order 17, Mr. Speaker.

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Give Effect To The International Convention On The Law Applicable To Trust And Their Recognition." (Bill No. 30). MR. SPEAKER: The Chair has to he directed whether we are just beginning or whether we had the debate adiourned MR. BAKER: No this is just the beginning The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. DICKS Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, may it please the Members of'• •Lhe House, the bi].1 that lies before the H o u s e at t h e present time is something of an exception in comparison with most legislation that comes before us in the sense that it is enacting an international statute to make it. applicable to Provindial Law,

whereas the maj ority and not. quite. all of our legislation certainly deals with matters that have solely Provincial application. You will notice first oF all in the

Schedule to the Act An International Convention - I thank the hon. Opposition House Leader for a kiss. MR. SIMMS: Just read the explanatory notes MR. DICKS Mr. Speaker, I must say. I thank t h e hon. Oppc'sition House L.C:&CIer For his thoughts on the matter. I have been waiting for this opportunity to explain the burning question in everyone's rn:I nd as t.o the difference between a resulting and a constructive trust. MR. SIMMS: You are afraid - MR._DICKS: . . L22 November 23, 1989. vol XLI No. 39 1 R22

S I can see the obvious enthusiasm on behalf of the Member for Humber East (Ms Verge) . I must admit that it was a distinction which I had sufficiently forgotten to - MR._SIMMS: You can meet her outside the House afterwards and explain all of that. MR. DICKS: Well we have not done lunch in a while, but I am sure we can arrange something like that. MS_VERGE: (inaudible). MR. DICKS: Well that certainly sounds like something we could take under advisement. As I say I think it is a particular application moreso in these' days in the realm of family law in the division of assets, where it probably has more relevance.

Judicial trusts are not ones that are done by expressed statute or -by express agreement, but instead bring before them a judicial decision. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Carried. Carried MR. OICKS: I will be very disappointed, Mr. Speaker, if it should turn out that my hon. friend on the other side is going to speak for twenty minutes and I have to listen to her. In any event, Mr. Speaker, I am enthused with the reception that this bill has gotten before the House and its recognition of its obvious value .to us all. So on that basis I commend itto the House for approval.

It is a reciprical piece, of legislation which essentially means that' iF someone were to leave Newfoundland 123 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI they would have some comfort that if they were to go to Netherlands or England or the United States or some other such jurisdiction that has recognized this convention that their trust recognized in Newfoundland would be accepted there and we would return them the same courtesy of course.. MR.TOBIN: (Inaudible). MR.

DICKS: So I would at this point say that it is certainly a c o n s tructive. bill before the House thai: 1 .1as resulted in greater trust between our two parties and 'I am sure that is the method on which we will endorse this legislation. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, MR. REID: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Carbonear MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, I would like to 'take the opportunity because it was under my chairmanship and the Vice- MS VERGE: (Inaudible). MR. REID: I find it hard to say. MR. SIMMS: Do not choke on it. MR.

REID (in d e r the Leg i slat iv e Review Committee this was o n e of Lh. bills that we revietAled and I have to take tIie opportunity to 51%/ here, Mr. Speakor, that I have probably one or the ht committees that ever worked in this particular House and I would No. 39 Rfl

S like to make note of that and say - AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, myl Oh, my! MR. REID - Mr. Speaker, that it was unanimous consent with our Committee that this Bill would pass as presented to us. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR.REID: Thank you very much, the hon. the Member for Humber. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber East. MS VERGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Because of the effectiveness of the Social Legislation Committee, chaired ably by my friend for Carbonear (Mr.

Reid), I had a chance to exhaustively consider this Bill before, and hold forth on my passionate interest in the subject of trust in that Form and therefore I will not haUe to take the Full time available to me today to discuss the Bill.

It is probably sufficient to say that the Opposition fully endorses this measure as well as the next one on the order paper whic h are both Provincial and Conventions already signed by Canada but which, because of the division of powers between the Federal Parliament and the Provincial Legislatures. require Provincial Legislative endorsement, ftc efFect of this particular Bill, as the M i n i s t e r of Justice has pointed out, is to avoid c o n fu s ion t hat 5 0111 et i inc s exist now in International or even Interprovincial Trust situations, this is particularly so when one of the jurisdictions involved has a civil law system, since the Trust in not an instrument which is natural to the civil law system.

It is a common law innovation so, Mr. Speaker, we do see practical benefits for people in our Province resulting from this Bill.

Before I sit down, I would like to say that the Social Legislation Committee of the House and all Members on this side anxaously await more Justice Bills, this o n e a n d the one ihat. is coming are both Legislative measures that were in the pipeline during my time as Justice Minister, but the last year though I was there, I was working on a mu c h mci r e a i nb i t: i. ci u s an ci c o in pr e he n s i v e 1 eq i s 1 a ti. v e a. g e ii cia for the 1989 Session of t h e House of Assembly .

Among t h e miasures that I was working on were Bills to recommend the L a w Reform Commission reports on limitation of actions and that is a report that has been before the Government close to two years now, so it really should have b e e n implemented through legislation in this House. The Law Reform ColTimnissj.on report on IT.ndu ring Powers of Attorney whi.c h is pointed, and which c a n he implemented v e r y simply .

A new Provincial Court Act which should have resulted from the work of a Committee that studied the riced for i.mprov eme ri t. in P nc vi, ri c ial Court Legislation F o r several months last y e a r a n d early this year. New Securities Legi.slation which is desperately needed, Improvements to the Human Rights Code in terms of strengthening and broadening the substance. oF the C o d e The Protection cf Human Rights to individuals in the Province and Legislation to S 1-2 4 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI No. 39 R24

. . . modernize and reform the law dealing with Justices of the Peace. They were just among the planed list of Legislative measures of the previous Administration, which was a progressive Administration, and I am surprised that the Minister of Justice has not come before us with more than a few paltry housekeeping measures, including this - uniformed legislation endorsing an International Convention that has been signed by Canada, while I endorse this Bill, I would encourage the Minister of Justice to give us more. Thank you Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

The Minister of Justice If the hon. the Minister now speaks he will close the debate. MR. DICKS Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I very much appreciate the admonitions of the former Minister of Justice, the Member for Number East, but you know I think in her mild criticism, which I accept, is the response that is obviously indicated, the Legislation in fact sat in the Department of Justice For anywhere from a year to two years without any movement on it and I wish to assure h e r that I have met with the law foundation and the Bills that have been before us will certainly be moved forward with much more expedition than has been the case in the past.

I think that this Session will prove, and I am quite certain that by the time next Spring it becomes apparent, that this Minister of Justice and this Government will in fact be the most legislative and the most creative and the most responsive to the justice needs of this Province. SOME HON, MEMBERS: Near, hear! MR.

DICKS: And in the same manner, with the same method that wo have moved forward in administration, and in terms of our development of the Department, and the increase in morale, we will do so similarly in legislative fashion As to the delay, I would point out that with the number oF papers on the Order Paper and, of course, it not only falls to Justice to bring forward its own ].egisla L:t.on but. also to respond to the needs of Government as a whole, t h a t includes the various enactments, drafting, the various departmental divas:iori and the other .nactnients that have come before the Hcus e almost forty pieces of legislation so far.

I wish to assure the Member and her hon. colleagues on the other side of . the House that, it w1l be a momuinental legislative year in the annals •of this Province when it becomes evident, when the new statutes are ubished and consolidated for the people of the Province, that wE: are a very c r e a t i v e Government. We in fact take our legislative responsibility very semiously a n d not. only that b u t move for'wir'd expeditiously. So while I appreciate her admonitions, as I said earlier, .1 would certainly think that come this spring we will certainly have proven our worth. Just to close debate on the Bill.

As the hon. Member says, it is a piece of J.egislation that on the. face of it appears archaic, but certainly does have application for people who will have problems that arise. We do live in a time when it is increasingly becoming L25 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI No. 39 R25

S necessary to determine which law will apply because of the movement of people 'from different jurisdictions interçrovincially and internationally. I think this is one piece of legislation that, although on the face is not relevant, but it is one that will he useful to the people of the Province, and will affect their lives to some extent over the corning years I thank the Opposition Members for their support of the legislation as well as the Committee for their worl< on it, and recommend it to the House for passage. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Give Effect To The International Convention On The Law Applicable To Trusts And Their Recognition." read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Nhole House on tomorrow. " (Bill No. 30). MR.BAKER: Order 18, Mr. Speaker. Motion, second reading of a Bill, "An Act Respecting The United Nations Con c1 en t ion On Contracts For 'lie International Sale of Goods , " (Bill No. 31). MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise to move second reading of this Bill.

As most people know the sale of goods in each Province is governed by a piece of 1 e.g is 1 at ion within Provincial jurisdiction relating to the sale of goods. Iii fact termed, The Sale of Goods Act, a n d that legislation, I should say, is virtually uniform across the country and through most of the American jurisdictions as well. There are problems, however, that arise internationally particularly in this day and age when so much international commerce is taking place..

As you know, the projections for the. future will involve substantial developments in the resource area, which will entail the sale of goods certainly w i t h the Unuted States and Northern Europe for the most part. I think it is important, therefore, thai: we settle to sonic extent the law relating to the international sale of goods. You have befc're the House at the present time a piece of legislation which purports and which will in fact enact a iJni'ted Nations Convention on c o n t r a c t s for the internationa'i sale of goods. It first of all defines the type of goods covered and which ones are not.

And I point out for the connoisseurs in the House that under Article. 2, Subsection (

b) should you choose to go to Southeby's in England or Christie's and purchase goods by auction, that particular sale device having come of note to us all of recent, fc'r various reasons, that your goods will riot; be subject to this pet rticular convention. So you should not necessarily as sume that this will govern e.ver, comrnercj.al sal. e of goods that you may engage in, but c'n t h e , other hand it rAvill for all intents and purposes cover most of them.

The convention that we are. dealing with, the fine sale and the type.s of rights that arise when pas sage in goods takes place, remedies ol - a, contract where one party or the other defaults, delive.ry of the goods, the obligations of 'the . S L26 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI No, 39 R26

. seller, payment of the price and so forth, that is contained in the substantive part of the convention which is appended as a

schedule to the Act. It is worth note, I think, that in

Section 7, that parties can exclude the application of the legislation, or the international conventaon, by expressly providing in the contract that the laws of the Province or another jurisdiction applies. That is an important factor since it leaves it to the parties to choose the law of the forum a n d in fact, choose for instance, the laws of Newfoundland should they conflict with any particular part of the convention. There is a second part of that Enactment 7, Subsection 2, which makes it perfectly clear that should this selection take place that the contract not be interpreted to make a

schedule of the Act apply contrary to the terms of the contract. I think that is a mechanism that will safeguard the interests of people in the Province who choose to enter into contracts for the international sale of goods, so that they can make the laws of our Province apply, should they so choose.

I therefore commend it to the House, and move second reading, since I believe this type of legislation and international convention will become increasinly important with the onset of free trade, whatever one may think of that particular federal initiative, as well as one would hope growing intercourse with the other nations of the Asian Rim and Northern Europe which we hope to increase trade and development, o ri t ha t b as :i. s 1 c orrirri e nd ti i. legislation to the House For L27 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI approval. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber East.

MS VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Most ofthe remarks [ made with respect t-o- the previous Bill endorsing the international convention on trust law apply equally to this Bill endorsing the UN International ConvE.n Lion on the sa].e of goods. It is another measure designed to avoid conflicts of law problems arising out of international legal situatiohs , and in this particular case internatinal sales contract situations.

I would t.hink this Bill would h a v e more relevance to people in our Province since it is more common that people in businesses here get involved in contracts for the sale oF gocids with parties o u t s i d e this jurisdiction, a n d outside of Canada, for that matter. I would like to go back to the debate about the productivity of the Department, of Justice under the new Minister. He and hi.s House Leader point tot he Order Paper saying that they have put forward forty bills .

That is so because in all those forty bills there i.s ].itt!,e cf substance, The vast majority of them refTl.ec t the reshuffling and new naines for the public service. Several others involve one clause amendments . 1 do riot think my colleagues on the Legislation Commit tee, I participate on, would diFfer with me when I say that we really h a v e not had much to do yet. We. have n o t b e e n given any moat in to which to s i n k o u r teeth. The No. 39 R27 .

Department of Justice more than any other Department is responsible for areas of law which can be improved, leading to practical benefits for the people we represent through law reforms, and these are improvements that may be initiated without any cost to the Government. I mentioned several legislative measures that I, and the officials of the Department, worked on during 1988 and early 1989 before the Government changed. As far as I am aware these are measures that should have been launched in the House of Assembly last spring yet we have not seen them yet.

Now, these two Bills we have been dealing with this afternoon, which endorse International Covenant Canada, the Federal Government has signed, really do not show any initiative or creativity on the part of our Department. They are word for word the same as Acts that are already passed, or that are in the process of being passed by the other Provinces, and as I say, the whole point of them is to endorse conventions that the Federal Government has already signed. I again call on the Minister of Justice to come forward with a Bill incorporating the Law Reform CommUs sion recommendations on limitation of actions.

He insinuated that I, as Minister had sat on that report, but the Law Reform Commissioners know the difference of that. It is a complex report that took them three or Four years to produce. The Department of Justice under my leadership had it for about a year, and we were about to bring forward a Bill when the Government changed. A whole additional year is now passing without any sign of interest, let alone action on the part OF the new Government and the new Minister.

While the first Reform Commission report on Enduring Powers of Attorney was given to me only last winter and that is something that I would have moved on last spring. The Government House Leader claims a record of forty Bills in this Session of The House of Asseinbly, why, I would remind him and the others opposite that in the last Ses s i o n w h e n I was Minister of Justice there were thirteen Justice Bills alone .most of which were quite substantive, including sweeping family law reform, including changes to the Human Rights Code and tc the Prov:j.nc:taj. Court Act including a Uict.im 01: Crime Act.

We need additional changes in strengthening of the Human Rights Code, we need some more Amendments to family legislation, we need a whole n e w Securities Act that is desperately needed and we need legislation making improvements in the legislative frame work for t.he Provincial Court, For that purpose I had a committee working during 1988 and early 1989 and I hear the Provincial Court Judges are becoming quite impatient because there has been no move on the part of this Minister to put forward their recommendations in the form of a Bill. Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the Opposi tic n I indicate our support Fo rthis 3111 endorsing the UN convention on international Sales OF Goods contract, but I again call on the Minister of Justice to bring on more legislation, and in Future, legislation that ShOWS sonc initiative and some creativity on his part. Thank you Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice If the hon. t h e Minis te.r speaks now, he closes the debate MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Just in r . L28 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI No. 39 R28

. . response again to some matters raised by my learned friend, not directly relevant to the Bill which I am pleased to say, our colleagues on the other side of the House support, for all the good reasons that I have indicated to my learned friend.

Just with respect to ihis ongoing matter I note that t h e Press gallery has been eagerly following this debate, so although I do not know if I should address as a matter of Urgent concern, nevertheless, I certainly would not want to have the record of this House cluttered up with the remarks of my learned friend without at least making some disputatious c omme it on them.

Let me say first of all, with the Provincial Judges Act which I missed in comment to the last Bill, is well in hand, in fact it is at its point of, I think, second or third drafting, as regards the response of Provincial Court JLrdges it has been uniformly positive and enthusiastic to my own concern about their plight in not having had

an Act, not withstanding the fact that the Draft had been before the Department for some time without any indication as to its measure of support within the Government, and I have made it quite clear, and in fact, I have been called because the judges are anxiously awaiting this Draft which I have so enthusiastically discussed with them and they know my thoughts are very clear on the issue and I put forward to them in a frank and firm manner exactly what the Government intends to do with a few things to be decided by this hon. House in due course, if not all of them.

MS UERGE: Nill . you have this before C hr i s t nn as? 1-29 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI MR. DICKS: Yes, indeed I shall.

I also wish to point out that we have four legislative drafts people who have been taxed, notwithstanding their own enthusiasm for what is happening, taxed beyond the measure of capability in drafting, preparing and bringing forward the Legislation, anil I have been as sured by all my Department that never have they experienced such a wealth of leadership and talent as now exist with this particular Government, in bringing- forward on urgent basis matters which so affe.c t our Government in this Province.

As to the spee.d and amount of legislation, .et me just say to my learned friend and h e r colleagues, that it will merely illustrat.e t h e p r e c e p t that w h e n this Session is finished, looking back at this point in our legislative timetable ..that the best was certainly yet t.o come. Thank you. PREMIER_NELLS: Pass on to them something about lawyers, I heard the comment about lawyers, and I thought they would really ap.preciate this You should hear it, it is worth hearing. This is an excerpt from a letter written to me in support oF the Meech Lake stand.

Here is what it says, oh, I have to get my glasses, I might as well ge.t it accurate. 'You seem to he a man of such couragc., integrity and ante]..iigence that. it. is ct.Lfficu] •L to believe t h a t you are both a politician and a lawye.r, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER NELLS: I thought the House might appreciate the comment. MR. SPEAKER: No. 39 R29

The hon. Opposition House Leader MR. SIMMS: I guess the Premier will be prepared to table that letter, will he? On motion, a Bill, "An Act Respecting The United Nations Convention On Contracts For The International Sale Of Goods,' read • second time, ordered referred to • Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 31) MR. BAKER: Order 16, Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting The Department Of Fisheries." (Bill No, 26). MR. SIMMS: The d'bTte was adjourned by the Member for Grand Bank, MR, SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Grand Bank, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I adj ourned the debate a couple of days ago on this particular bill. I mLlst say I found the Premier's quote from the letter quite amusing and I was going to say, and I might as well say it, it is hard to believe that the Premier would start writing letters to himself so early in the new term. Yes, that is quite a revelation. I think it surprises us all. But just particular, bill or Department what has last three probably, in relation to this I guess, housekeeping restructuring of the of Fisheries.

I think oine to light over., the weeks or so, it car when . the Minister himself in introducing the bill, the Hansard of November 21, L 23 when he said 'One of the reasons is that we have now, as a result of the reorganization of our Department, in trying to make it a more efficient and maybe a leaner and meaner type of Department.

And, of course, those two words struck me very much over the last couple of days when he s a i d t h e reason was to make it a leaner and a meaner Department. of Fisheries And I guess my whole. point is that, we have seen certainly a sort of a mean streak for the 1:1. rst time in Five years coining out of the Department of F:isheri.es , for the first time, in the Province n o t b e i n g involved in the Fisheries Emerge n c y Re s p0 n S e P r 0 g ram to assist thousands of Newfound landers and Labrador ian s from around the Province, who so desperately ne.ed assistance. at this time because of the drastic catch failure that as drastically decreased the income of inshdre fishermen around the Province, and consequently the income of fish plant workers because there was not enough resource to process in the plants to give them work.

So there is no question. And in an ordinary Legislature, in an ordinary Govern[ilent that was functioning properly, you would have a Minister of Employment who would very quickly be on top of the situation, and it would very quickly implement a program to address this very serious problem that we are facing in the Province. And, of áourse , when you see the unemployment rate in the Province up 2 per cent over 1988, at. October 1989 it is up 2 per cent, then that certainly must he very disturbing for the new Minis Le.r of Employment (Ms Cowan) especially in light. . . L30 November 23, 1989 Vol. XLI No. 39 R30

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. MATTHEWS: I am sorry? MR. DECKER: (Inaudible) the Premier did not her job is. But I people in the Provi it is or should expecting something with this very, problem. tell her what am sure most nce know what be, and are to he done very serious S MR. MATTHEWS I arri sorry . I thought the Minister of Health (Mr.

Decker) was g o i n g to- - tell me the reason the unemployment rate was gone up by 2 per cent this October over las € Oc toher was that many Newfou ndlanders and Lahradorj.ans who were on the mainland Caine home, could not find jobs, and consequently that swelled the unemployment rate... But I am sure the 2 per cent increase in unemployment this year is even more serious than it was in October of 1988, because there had been that many more Nefoundlanders and Labradorians left the Province than have left in the last fifteen or twenty years in this Province.

And we will be introducing statistics over the next week or so that will show that more Newfoundlanders and Labradorians have left this Province in the last six months than in any other period in the last te.n ycrs . And that, of course, make the 2 per cent increase in unemployment even that much more serious.

So I am glad that the Minister of Employment is listening to that and I am very surprised, with the impending crisis in the fishery, that we have known since mid-summer, that the Minis tcr in coordination and in conjunction with t h e Minister of Fisheries has not done something to address this very serious problo.m because that is what her job is.

Now maybe in her job description Now, of course, in discussion on the Bill the last day it was brought up in the House, discussed and debated, as the Leader of the Opposition so rightfully pointed out for Members of the House, there are basically two changes in this Bill making it diterc.nt From the 1973 Bill. One. is that it includes the Fishing En dust r y Advisory Board under the jurisdiction of the Department of Fisheries. This Bill will give. the Department that authority. And, as well, it deals with the increases in fines For infractions, and so on, in the Province, So these are the two major changes.

But when we look at what is happening in the Fishery and the performance in this House of Assembly since 30 October, which is a little better than three weeks, I think the most major reorganzaton that one could expect in the next short while in the Department of Fisheries is a real' change at the top, After watching the performance of' the, Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Carter) in the last t h r e e weeks in the House and the reaction around the Province to the fisheries crisis .... and I see colleagues opposite nodding yes -• 1 am sure we can expect the Premier to make a i'naj or major change in the Department of Fisheries before Christmas and that we will see a now Minister or Fisheries who has a social conscience and who will go about addressing the very serious issues in the fishery. L31 November 23, 1989 Vol, XLI No. 39 R 3 1

Right on! But, now, she had better be careful, because, based upon her performance as Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, .1 do not think, she has too much to worry about..She doEs not have to stay awake too many nights either, worrying about being appointed Minister of Fi.sheries MR. TOBIN: The Member for Conception Bay South, the ward is. MR. MATTHEWS: The Member for where? MR. TOBIN: Conception Bay South, MR, MATTHEWS The Member for Conception Bay South for-Minister, of Fisheries? No, 1 do not believe that. I doubt that very, very much. AN HON. MEMBER: Torn Murphy? MR.

MATTHEWS: No, Tom Murphy will not be Minister of Fisheries either, because lie will not have a fish plant in his District after Christmas. In order to be a Minister of Fisheries, you almost have to have a fish plant in your District, It is too had, because I sort of thought the Member for St. Johns South (Mr. Murphy) would probably be on the horizon for becoming the new Minister of Fisheries; but things will be in such limbo in his District, particularly with his fish plant, by that time, that he will not he considered. Now, I am not saying that because I want to say it.

I am in the same situation in my own District, with two fish plants, b u t. the point is that I, certainly, for the next number of years, do not have to worry about being Minister of Fisheries. 'lhat is one less worry I have than does the Member for St. Johns South. MS COWAN: Right on! Right on! MR. MATTHEWS: T h e. Minister for Employment (Ms Cowan) is saying, 'Right on! MR. PARSONS: The only job she created is her own. MR. MATTHEWS: Oh, rio, she created more than her own, now. She has created a few jobs s i n c e she has been over in the Department, I have heard that. She has eliminated a lot. MR. PARSONS: Yes?

MR. MATTHEWS Yes. But she is close to being plus now. She wiped out just about all the Employment Services Division over there, a Minister who was supposed to create employment. And you would think in this crisis now, where we are going to displace 6,000 to 10,000 people in the fishing industry, that the Minister wc'uld ho boosting her stafF in Employment Services Divisi on.

You would think that if we are going to displace 6,000 to 10,000 Newfoundlanders and Labradc;ria ns from our most important. industry, it would be a tUne when the Emnp 1 0 y me n t S e r v i c e s Di v i 5 i 0 n '::' f the Department of Employment would be putting greater emphasis on looking at employment programs for the Province. I say that v e r y seriously. I am not saying that to knock the Minister, I am jus.t saying it because it is tm e. I mean, if w h a t i.s g o i n g tc' h a p p e n in this Province, as predicted and . L32 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI No. 39 R32

S enunciated by the Premier and our provincial Minister of Fisheries, and what is coming out of Ottawa, all the signals coming from the industry, then, if ever there was a time for a very strong Department of Employment, and particularly, an Employment Services Division, it is now. And I am somewhat surprised that that particular Division has not got a lot of work d o n e already to address this very seraous issue.

Because it is going to be too late when you have hundreds and maybe thousands of Newfoundlanders arid Labradorians who are going to be displaced from the fishing industry with closures OF fish plants, on the main steps of Confederation Building, as king the Government, 'What are you going to do?' It is going to be too late to address the problem then. There has to be more planhing put into this. We have been all expecting what has been talked about for the last twelve months, the decrease in the total allowable catch for fish quotas in the Province, and we all know what that means to us.

It means less catch for our inshore fishermen and our trawlermen, less work in our fish plants processing less fish. And, I mean, we all know that. It is not going to he good enough when the crunch comes, when the crisis is on the doorstep and you have people waiting on the steps of Confederation Building for answers to go out and tell them that it is going to take a bit more time to address this very serious problem. And, of course, you do have a Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, you do have a Minister of Fis herips .

And, of course, to compliment anything they might do, they need the support OF the Minister of Finance and t h e 1-33 November 23, 1989 Vol XII President of Treasury Board and so on, to come up with money for the programs the Minister may introduce. But what really frightens me, and I am sure Members opposite as well, it frightens them as well, because they are going to be just as affected as i am as a Member by the impact in their Dis tric is that there are no s:i.qnals comnrinq from the Minister' F Employmnent and from that. particular Department, or from the.

Department of Fisheries, that they are doinq anything. MR. N. CARTER: That is n o t true and yoU know it is not, MR. R. AYLWARD: Oh, you woke him up. MR. MATTHEWS: Nell, how about that, You are doing something? Nhat I am saying is I have not seen any signals. MR. N. CARTER: Your eyes are closed MR. MATTHEWS: My eyes are not closed , Sometimes they close, when I go t.o sI eep hut they arE not closed continuously. . I know what •is happening in the fishery c'fth'is Province.

You do not need your eyes open to know that,, you just listen to a radio static'n, and you listen 'tc' yc'ur telephone calls and you listen to the Members of' your own caucus like i I'i sten t:c' mine, and some Members of yours I get calls from all Districts oi the Province a n d not only from this side,., from the Minister' 5 own district, from ' people who have difficulty. MR. N. CARTER: No. 39 R33 .

. From your District, too, by the way. MR. MATTHEWS: Of course you do. You sure did. They have a very serious problem and you did not help it when you froze a crab license for a resource short plant. MR. W. CARTER: Your Leader did not help any when he gave one out two days after the election, MR. MATTHEWS: It does not matter what my leader did after the election. You cancelled one five days after becoming Minister of Fisheries, for the record of this House.

Five days after you were sworn in on May 5 you cancalled a crab license in a plant that everyone in this Province knows . has had a resource problem from the time the plant was built by the Federal and Provincial Governments of this Province. I would not be surprised that you were then the Minister of Fisheries. MR. TOBIN: He was, as a matter of fact. MR. MATTHEWS: In the Frank Moores cabinet, when the Alcan Mine closed in St. Lawrence, on the actions of the Premier of the Province, and I would say supported by you, dd the . right thing by putting a fish plant in St.

Lawrence because what else were the people going to do. rhey did not build a complete plant. They build one without Freezing capacity and that is now there but what the plant now lacks is resource. There was an opportunity for a few weeks more work for a few more people in St. Lawrence, an economically d e p r e s s e d area, by attaching a crab license to the plant so that whoever operated the plant the crab license would be there. Not to approach a buyer or a processor to move around the Province but to stay with the plant in St. Lawrence. And, what did this Minister of Fisheries do?

Five days after becoming Minister of Fisheries you took it away From them, and every timn you met with them since you say it is still under review, That is what you tell them. They told me yesterday in the gallery when I went up and spoke to them. I said, how did you make out with your c roth license? They said, "we did not Bill, it is still under review since May 10." That is not good enough and I say to the Minister it is not. Attaching a c r a b license to the St..Lawrence plant was not doing something wrong, or something that was not needed.

It was something that is nee.ded badly because this year again, if t h e fish was not trucked into St Lawrence by the operator, t h e y would not have got t e n weeks work. It was something that was needed, and for this Minister to take office and do what he did, you cannot justify that. AN HON._MEMBER: You can justiFy giving it to th.ui. MR. MATTHEWS: He could not justify giving it to them.

Yes, he could, and you can justify giving a Jot more Jicenises becauso if that plant is going to be viable, a n y w h e r e cic'se to viabl, it needs more resource., and in this Province you know as well as everyone in this Ass'emhly and everyone in the f i s h i n g indus try that with the cutback in quotas and the old mumbler over there- behind the paper should listen as well, because things are not going to be as pleasant for . [I] L34 November 23, 1989 Vol. XLI No. 39 R31

him in Burgeo or Ramea either. that easy. 0 . MR. 106Th: Did you say mummer or mumbler? MR. MATTHEWS: Mumbler. Not mummer, mumbler. In order to provide additional work and employment in St. Lawrence you have, as in other plants around this Province, you have to utilize other species, under- utilized species. It is going to take a lot of money to do that, it is going to take more than just a license attached to a plant. But there was an opportunity for the people in St. Lawrence to get a Few more weeks work, and to give the operator a chance of making the operation viable.

This particular , Minister took similar action to what he is taking with the Emergency Response Program, he has done nothing. Yes, he did in this case, he cancelled the license. MR. TOBIN: Boy, that is €errible. MR. MATTHEWS: And he has done nothing with the F i s her i e s Re p o n 5 e Pro g r a in. A n d the gentlemen on that side know it Members 1< now it, he has clone nothinj MR.TOBIN: Their constituents know it though MR.

MATTHEWS: But you will know, the same as you will know by not supporting an all-plants-open-policy, is that when you have thousands of people on the doorsteps to Confederation Building you will not be able to tell them oh, wait and go away. We will make a difference one of these days, we will decide to dO something for you. It will not he And what we saw during the NAPE strike is only going to be a Sunday School picnic to what is about to happen in this Province. And I do not say that because I want it to happen.

Because I tell you something, it is not very pleasant For anyone and moreso pleasant for anyone in Government. MR. 106Th: Starvation is facing some of (inaudible) MR. MATTHEWS: I tell you when you have Face that day after day you do not enjoy getting out of bed. MR. TOBIN: Starvation is not good stuff. MR. MATTHEWS: It is not. And as I said today and I sincerely helive that it is a definite plan and plot by t h e Pro v i n c i a 1 Go v er rime n t of t Ii :i. s Province to eliminate thoUsands of people from our most traditional and basic industry. That is the way you are doing it.

And Walter ) you can smile all you like. But that is the mes sage that is going around this Province and people are beqi.nrri,rig to believe it.. Because e v e r y time you open your mouth on the fishery you say it., and every time the Premier opens his mouth he says it. Two days ago when I used the figure of 6, ,000 to 10,000 peop].e being eliminate.d from the Fishery on November 21, the PreirFer lookcd at me and said. 'You are mistaking the facts. Where are you getting your information, he said?

In Hansard 'What are you tal k i n g about?' He rose in his place. yesterday, and he used the self same figure, he said, 6 ) 000 people - those of us who were he.re heard L35 November 23, 1989 vol XLI No. 39 R35

. the man - are going to be displaced from the fishery. One day he said, I was mistaking the facts. And he asked me where I got the information? Yes, he confirmed. Of course, everyone in the Province had heard h i m time and time again. So it is hard to know what to believe. MR.TOBIN: What did you say last year? MR. MATTHEWS: I am sorry? MR. TOBIN: What did you say last year? MR. MATTHEWS: In the last session? MR.TOBIN: Yes. MR. MATTHEWS: I am beginning to believe what I said in the last session was true. And everybody remembers what I said and I am not going to get myself in trouble by listening to the hon.

Member again today, and get stalled for another thirty seconds SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MATTHEWS: A minimum of 6.000, MR, TOBIN: Resettlement. He wanted resettlement last year. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes. PREMIER WELLS: (Inaudible) MR. MATTHEWS: That is correct, It will be more than 5,000. Now 6,000 to 10,000 is between 5,000 and 10,000. So if it is 6,001 is more than 6,000, and it is between 6,000 and 10,000. MR. R. AYLWARD: Probably it is closer to 15,000. MR. MATTHEWS: Pardon? That is still between 6,000 arid $10,000, is it not? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! AN HON. MEMBER: Co back to the (inaudible) MR.

MATTHEWS: New mathematics, 6,500 is not between 6,000 and 10,000. MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible) give it up. MR. MATTHEWS: Give it up. You got some, good news for Port aux Basques today, leave it alone, enjoy it. Do not put your foot in your mouth or two feet down in your throat so far. MR. TOBIN: He is going up to the Grey Cup Caine MR. MATTHEWS: Yes, he is going off to the Grey Cup Game, Yes, I ai'n glad he is. I am an avid sports fan. I am glad to hear the Premier is a sports fan. MR. K. AYLWARD: Too b a d he does not learn more about the fisheries, MR. MATTHEWS: That is right.

Too bad he does not learn about the Fish. C L36 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI No, 39 R36

S . MR. MURPHY: When the other Premier used to go, (Inaudible) MR. MATTHEWS: Yes, and I envied very one he went to and I do not begrude anybody. B u t. let us get back to the fishery, t h e most important game in Newfoundland and Labrador today. . The most important game t h e fishery. A n d let us not forget, any of us, let any of us not forget - MR. TOBIN: The same as They got. MR. MATTHEWS: Let us not forget what we are talking about here. We are not talking about minerals. We are not talking about minerals in the ground.

We are not talking about oil offshore, we are talking about fish, a renewable resource that is going to rebuild. MR. GILBERT: (Inaudible) MR. MATTHEWS Now the Member for Burgeo over there he should stop mumbling and listen a bit and if he wants to say something sensible get to his feet and say it. But, of course, that is why he does not get to his feet because when he gets there he is not able to say anything sensible. But we are talking about fish, a renewable resource. MR. GILBERT: (Inaudible) over here. MR. MATTHEWS: Oh, yes, I did.

I did not agree with closing Ramea or Harbour Breton or Gaultois , or Grand Bank or Burin. I knew enough a b o u t it then that. i: knew that they should not close and I know enough about it today that :it. should not close either. Because if our fish is managed properly the stocks will rebuild . And you do not learn much about it the way you go, where you go and whern you live . Go and live with the I9c!0P:.I directly involved in t h e fishery, then you would know. AN HON. MEMBER: Live with them (inaudible MR. MATTHEWS: Yes, that Is what you have N o t down in St. Pete's.

We are talking about a renewable resource, and the fish stocks will rebuild off our coast, if we take the action that is proposed to he taken for the new TAC. And when the fish stocks rebuild, we will be able to -ffford to take more fish, which will increase the. landings of our inshore fisherm.n, our trawlermen, and lncrease the hours of work per wee.k , per month, per year, for fishermen, workers in the f i s h plants , and consequently, we will rebuild the fis hing industry to what it was before. MR. GILBERT: You would not know much about it anyway. MR. MATTHEWS: Yes,I know a lot about it.

L37 November 23, 1989 vol XLI Now, what really frightens me about the action that is being agreed to in p r i n c i p l e by this Provincial Government, is that you are going to close down connmunites today in looking For a solution, and you are g ...ing to eliminate hundreds of communities No. 39 . R37 El

S in this Province. You are going to impose economic devastation, not only upon those communities, but upon this Province. So, the key is to keep those communities vibrant, even if at a reduced capacity, keep those communities alive, keep those fishermen fishing so they maintain their fishing skills, keep the infrastructure in place that is so necessary. T h e s e are the things, until the stocks rebuild.

They get their proportionate amount of •the increase when the stocks grow, inshore fishermen will make more money , trawlermen will make more money, plant workers will make more money, the Treasury of the Province will get more mfioney, and we will become a more affluent Province. But, if we shut those communities down tomorrow in the search for a solution to the fishery, we will not reopen them again. Fish plants that will be closed will never open again. They must he kept.open, even if at a reduced capacity.

Twenty weeks work is not what we want, but it is twenty weeks more work than no work., and do not forget that. And this Provincial Government must be willing to he determined in a resolve with the Federal Government to do that, if it takes a few million bucks to do it. In the early 1980s we put $40 million bucks into the program. We got our money back. And if it takes a few million dollars - I say this to the Minister of Fisheries if it takes a few million dollars to accomplish that, do it.

Because, if you shut the fishery down, it is going to cost the Treasury of this Province a lot more motey than the few million dollars you will h a v e to put into the fishery. I want you to think about that. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. Members time has elapsed MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. PARSONS: That is too bad! By leave? AN HON.MEMBER: No, of course, he will not agree to that. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would like, since itis shortly after 4:00 p.m., to announce the questions for the Late Show, for this afternoon.

The first one is, 'I am d i s satisfied with the answers given to me by the Minister of Fisheries with regard to the plant closures, National Sea, the amount of fish caught and the part—time fishermen. That is from the hon. the Member for St. John's East Extern. The second question: 'I am not satisfied with the answers given to me by the Minister of Justice re auction services by the Sheriff's Office to auction assets of Lantern Wholesalers Limited. That is from the Lead er oF t h e Opposition.

The third question: 'I am not satisfied with the answer to my question to the Minister of Fis heries regarding the Fishermens Response program. That is signed by the Member for the district of Grand Bank. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin -. Placentia West. S . L38 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI No. 39 R38

C 4 MR. TOBIN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker I would like to make a few brief comments on this Bill. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) sit down. MR. TOBIN: No, Mr. Speaker, I am •not finished yet, but I do not intend to take too long. I only have a half hour, I think. AN HON. MEMBER: You only have thirty minutes MR. TOBIN: I only have thirty minutes, Mr. Speaker, unless they want to give me leave for sixty minutes. It is up to them. We will see when the time comes Mr. Speaker, this B'ill before the House today, as the Leader of the Opposition pointed out, adds very, very little to the Department of Fisheries.

As a matter of fact, it does nothing to change anything that has been put in place. I listened with interest today and the other day, to my colleague from Grand Bank, the adjoining District to mine, Mr. Speaker. IF we can just address, for a minute, the place in this Province where the deep-sea fishery got its beginning. As a matter of fact, Burin was the first fresh fish, frozen, deep sea plant in Newfoundland. I do not know if people realize that or not, but Burin was the first. At that time, Mr.

Speaker, the people of the Buri.n Peninsula used to leave and go on to catch fish, harvest the great waters off the coast and to bring back the f±sh, the product, and process it and that created many, many jobs for L39 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI Newfoundlanders. They were proud people then, Mr. Speaker, and they are proud people now. They harvested the fisheries then and they harvest it now. As a matter of fact, we heard the other day various people in the House speaking about the fisheries and they talked about the middle distance, and they tal ked about the inshore, and they ta].ked about the offshore, Mr.

Speaker, but the people who left the trap skifts and went to harvesi the waters out there in the. fresh F i s h trawler operation came fi. rst from the Burin Peninsula, Since that it has d i. v e r s i. f i ed t Ii r o ii g -ic' u t t he Province, Mr. Speaker, there is a fish plant in St. John's .and, as I understand' it, about to close. There is a fish plant down in Catalina, Mr. Speaker. A very successful f i s h plant, extremely 5 u c c e 5 5 1 u 1 and v e r y c o 'ripe. t e n t fishermen down there, and I think most of them are from ny District but that goes without, saying. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR.

TOBIN: That is right. I would think that when you look at the captains down there, people like. Jirri I3eazley, and Pat Antic and all that crotAld down from my own District-,I(n name them all. I can naine the boats. As a matter OF fact, Mr. Speaker, I have a first cousin who the Minister OF Fisheries will be f:'_jrrIf1i.I.. with.

I had an Lfricj.e that I am sure the Mi.ni.s ter OF Fisheries would he very familiar with, as a matter OF fact he was the trawler captain out of Trepassey, and many years before that he fished all his life and - he used to he up North to (Inaudible), i had an c'pportunit.y to visit there where he did it. No, 39 R39 .

. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. TOBIN: Oh, yes, they always supported the Minister of Fisheries when he ran in St. John's West, even when the Member for Pleasantuille ran up their as a socialist. He ran up there one time against the Minister of Fisheries and I can tell you that the Tohins were out in full force supporting the Minister of Fisheries. AN HON. MEMBER: What a mistake? MR. TOBIN: no. I do not think any of them regret it Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. TOBIN: Yes, they were smart people, and that is what I am the product of. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. TOBIN: No that is a fact.

I am sure that to this day my father and my parents and my unc].es and everybody else would say with pride that they did support the Minister of Fisheries when he ran in St. John's West, and they found him to be an excellent representative of the District. What happened t.o hini since? He got confused, Mr. Speaker. He was doing well. He got confused and he lost a nomination and he got dragged into bad company. If a child goes out, Mr. Speaker, and gets in bad company you never know where he is going to end up.

The Minister of Fisheries after he. lost the nomination got a bit upset and all that and he ended up in bad company, the Liberals went after him and that is where he ended up, Mr. Speaker. But before that he was a pretty good representative in the District. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. TOBIN: That is right. We did support him down in Burin St. George's. I supported him. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. TOI3IN Yes, Mr. Speaker, I was a Government employee at the time At that time, Mr. Speaker, yc'u were not allowed to get involved in politics.

It was the Peckford Administration that brought in the regulations last year that. per m i t ted c i v i 1 s er van t s 1: he opportunity to become involved Mr. Speaker, I will tll ou something else, it was time. It was bloody well time that civil servants be provided the. opportunities. I will give you an example, in 1982 when I ran for politics the Member for Grand Bank who was a teacher, paid cut Of the pubi.ic purse, had the right to take a leave of absence for up to five years , but not only the. right to take a leave of ahse.ncc hut t.c' se.e.k the nomination and run. Mr.

Speaker, I worked with the civil service as dd you, as d i d you, and up until we c h a n g e d the policies you would have to quit your job. AN HON. MEMBER: What did you do? MR. TOBIN: is L40 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI No. 39 RIO

S . What did I do? I will not say what I was going to say, Mr. 'Speaker, when I worked with the Provincial Government in 1982 as a Government employee I had to quit my job to seek the nomination and to me that was wrong, Any Government worth their salt had to change it. I cornrriitted myself that when I got elected and got in here I was going to see that that regulation changed and it has. Well Mr. Speaker we took everybody that was in the collective bargaining process, where I carrie from when I was a Member of NAPE, I was in that great union of NAPE, very active at one time, in NAPE.

Yes, I was around, and when I got in Government I saw to it, I was involved in it, my colleagues in Cabinet, and I was in Cabinet when it was changed, we brought in regulations that provided the opportunity for all civil servants who were members of the collective bargaining process to become actively involved in politics and I think I was right. Well, I was committed to it. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. TOBIN: What is 'that, No, I did not. No, Mr, Speaker, I did not, I did not get arrested with Mr. Penney, nor did I get arrested with the. Minister of Environment and Lands. Mr.

Speaker, we knocked around together too. But I want to get back to the Fisheries again. I tell you, Mr. Speaker, he is asking for an answer, I can tell you Mr. Speaker, I can tell the hon. Member what I, did not do. Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to be kind, I have never been a nasty perso,n in this House (inaudible) I have had a lot of fun, and I challenge anyone here in the eight years that I have been in this House', to go through Hansard and the Member for Gander, Mr. Speaker, the House Leader can say the same thing. He was there for a term.

I challenge anyone here to look through Hansard over the past eight years and find once. where I have been personal with a Member. That is true, i have had a lot of fun, I yap back a n d forth, but never, never, never as long as I h a v e been in this Ass embly . I do not k now about. anybody else, but I can tell you one thing you cannot single out a person, never Mr. Speaker, 'that 'is right. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I have, and I do not intend, no, I have had a lot of fun in this House I said it the last time I was speaking, is that there are fifty two in this legislature a n d you have to do what you have to do as Government to stay in power, and we have to do what we have to do to make sure that you get out of power. MR. SPEAKER: You are doing it for us then. MR. TOBIN No, Mr.

Speaker, that, is true, we do not have to he over-fl anxious at, this stage in the game, because there are three years Ic ft but. there are some people on that side of the House that are extremely anxious to see us back there., The point I was going to make I tell you someth'ng too, I have been in this Chamber, , Mr.

Speaker, when I: saw people who stood pretty low in debate, they are not her'e now, but I think that these personal insults, these personal character assassinations, there is absolutely no need for it and I am not being personal when I say this, but I think that the person who should be showing leadership in this Assembly in term, a n d I L41 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI No. 39 R 41

. hope the Member for Gander is listening to this because I want the message brought back, that in terms of showing leadership in this House of ridding ourselves of all of that old stuff that took place over the years should be the Premier. Now, Mr. Speaker, over the last little while, the Premier at times, becomes very personal in this Assembly, and I would encourage the Premier and I would em CO U rag e the Go v em men t House Leader to hae a chat with the Premier someday and encourage him not to become so personal, because one of these days, Mr.

Speaker, if the Premier gets personal, and I have said it, I have never been personal, I would not come at him with both barrels? I would be like a machine gun, because there is only so much of that kind of stuff that a human being, can be expected to take, Now I said that. He has been personal with other Members, I do not know if he ever said anything to me, he has never used my name, he has never used my name or made reference to me. Last year, Mr. Speaker, yes, okay, I walked into that one.

I can take that, MK Speaker, If I had been speaking, I think I would have said the same thing to him, so I (Jo not mind that kind of stuff. That is the thrust of the debate, when you are going to give it, Mr. Speaker, you have to be able to take it. AN HON. MEMBER: Did he tell the truth? No, he did not tell the truth. The Minister of Fisheries just told the truth. We are very smart people. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is the thrust of''the debate, The Premier has been getting personal. Last year in this House he looked across and he said, there is nothing over, there only animals. Remember that day. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. TOBIN: No there was somebody over there who mooed like a cow. And my colleague for Kilbride (Mr. R. Aylward) got blamed for it. MR. R. AYLWARD: Yes, that is right. MR. TOBIN: And he did not do it, by the way. AN HON. MEMBER: Who did it? MR. TOBIN: He is not here now the fellow who did it. AN HON. MEMBER: I know who it was. MR: TOBIN: But the people in his District wish he was. Now, Mr. Speaker, At us get on to the issue of the fisheries. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR._MATTHEWS: Do not he sidetracking him, now. MR. TOBIN: I hate being sidetracked MR.

MATTHEWS: You are a hard man to sidetrack MR. TOBIN: The other day in this Assembly, last Wednesday we put forth a resolution that called for an . . L42 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI No. 39 R42

. all—plants—open policy. It clearly stated, all,-plants—open policy. Mr. Speaker, that meant the plant in St. Johns where the Member from - AN HON. MEMBER: The hon. Minister is leaving. MR. TOBIN: Yes, he is leaving. There he goes, Mr: Speaker. He is gone, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: He had to leave, MR. TOBIN: And do you know, something, Mr. Speaker, if I voted against an all—plants—open policy, and the one in Marystown was going to be closed, I would crawl through the door as well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! - MR: MATTHEWS: He did not drive. He walked out under his own power. He is coming back.

MR._TOBIN: He is coining back. Okay, Mr. Speaker, MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible) MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I would like for the Member for St. John's South (Mr. Murphy) to hear what I have to say about this all—plants—open policy. MR. MURPHY: All ears MR. TOBIN: We have that resolution put in the Chamber and what happened when the votes came? Now, Mr. Speaker, what plants are we talking about? We are talking about every plant in Newfoundland and Labrador. That is what we are talking about. We are talking about the plants in Grand Bank and Fortune. MR.EFFORD: What about the one in Mount Pearl? MR.

TOBIN: We are talking about the plants Mr. Speaker, I would not be surprised if the Member for Port de Grave (Mr. Efford) or the Minister or the Acting Minister or the former, Minister or the present Minister of Social Services, I would not be surprised that he does not know that Mount Pearl does not have salt water. A n d I hope now that I have taught him something. Now, Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is we were talking about the plants in Grand Bank and Fortune. We were talking about. the plants in Marystown.

We were talking about the plants in Burgeo and Ramea and Gaultois and Hermitage and Harbour Breton, the plants in St. John's, Mr. Speaker. And i want to talk about the p].ant in St. John' s while I have t h e opportunity. . The Member for St. John's South I think is a very sincere individual. MR. POWER: Come on now! MR. _LOBIN.: Yes, I do. I do. MR. PARSONS: Do not be stretching the truth now. MR. TOBIN: RTF i believe, Mr. Speaker, that the Member for St. John' s South 1-43 November 23, 1989 Vol XLI No, 39 R43

industry; - and it goes on, and

WHEREAS it is vital that any government response to this crisis recognizes the necessity to adopt an all-plants-open-policy; THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the government do initiate it. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) read the rest MR. TOBIN Yes, I will re.ad the rest. Do you want me to? rI - EkEFoIh: be resolved that the Government immedaat ely informn the Hc'use oF the ha.;:i.c princip],es of this a c t i o n plan to address the fis heries crisis that it has proposed to the Government: 0.1: Canada; and BE II FURTHER RESOLVED that the House establish a Standing Committee on Fisheries, so that the Government can, on a continuous basis, have the benefit of the views of the Members of this House in developing a fisheries policy. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I an all-plants-open policy. And where does your MHA stand? Where does t h e Member for the district of Kilbride stand? He was for all-plants-open.. What about the Member for St. Johns Sout