Newfoundland and Labrador Hansard — Members' Statements; Statements by Ministers — 29 March 2001 (44th General Assembly, 3rd Session, Vol. XLIV No. 9)
2001-03-29
Newfoundland and Labrador — Debates (Hansard)
March 29, 2001 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY
PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No. 9
The House met at 1:30 p.m.
MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!
Before we begin our routine proceedings today, the Chair would like to take
this opportunity to welcome to the Speaker's gallery the St. John's Curling
Club Team who won on Sunday, March 25, the World Junior Men's Curling
Championship. They are: Skip, Brad Gushue; Third, Mark Nicholls; Second, Brent
Hamilton; Lead, Mike Adam; Fifth, Jamie Korab; and Coach, Jeff Thomas.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, if I could, by leave. I did have the
fortunate opportunity to meet this group of fine young men and their coach at
the airport when they returned just a couple of evenings ago. We have publicly
congratulated them, but I think the significance of having them here in our
Legislature today, in the Speaker's gallery, as guests of the Legislature -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, again, on behalf of everybody in
Newfoundland and Labrador I would like to say to Skip Brad and to Coach Jeff,
and the team, this is an incredible accomplishment for a group of young men from
Newfoundland and Labrador. It has, indeed, put our place on the map again in the
whole of the world. As a team, you are a source of encouragement and inspiration
for everybody in Newfoundland and Labrador, not only people who participate in
sports, like yours being curling, but for people generally. This has been a
boost in terms of a sense of confidence in what can be accomplished by people in
our Province who turn their attention to a particular task. Not a task for you
people, lots of work, but a lot of pleasure too, I expect, in a game which you
very much enjoy; a source of encouragement and inspiration. As I say, we are all
extremely proud, almost too proud for words. I must say, we are delighted to
have them here today. Congratulations!
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I would like to join, obviously, with the Premier in echoing the sentiments
that everybody feels in the Province. You have done this place very, very proud,
not only yourselves, but you stand as a testament to who we are and the type of
determination that exists amongst our people.
I will say one other thing, the Skip happens to live in Southlands, which is
in the District of Kilbride.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. E. BYRNE: Hold on, I don't want anybody to get confused. His skill
and ability with the curling rocks does not necessarily translate to the member's
skill within this place here.
On a serious note, I do want to say that this is a sporting achievement
unparalleled in Newfoundland and Labrador. The importance of the accomplishment
of this group of fine young gentlemen and their coach forever and a day will go
down in the annals of sports history as probably one of our defining and most
distinguished moments.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Even though we all expressed our pride and praise the other day in this
House, on Monday, it is a great pleasure to have an opportunity in person to
tell you how proud we are of you. I know you have your pride in your
accomplishment but vicariously every Newfoundlander and Labradorian feels a
little taller as a result of your accomplishments. It is something that shows
the people of this Province what can be done, what talent we have, what can be
done with focus and hard work, and what ability there is in the people of
Newfoundland and Labrador.
I want to wish you all the very best in your own future careers. You have
inspired a lot of young Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. I think you have also
made a name for yourselves as individuals. All have a future both in your sport
and perhaps with opportunities for coaching and teaching internationally
yourselves. Good luck in your futures. Thank you very much, on behalf of all
Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, in making us feel prouder and proud of your
accomplishments.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: As well today, I would like to welcome to the gallery, on
behalf of all members, six students, Levels I, II, and III, from St. Stephen's
All Grade School in Rencontre East, in the District of Fortune Bay-Cape La Hune.
They are accompanied by their teacher, Mr. Shawn Tibbo.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: As well, I would like to welcome to the gallery, Mayor Bob
Mesher and councillor Boyd Noel from the town of St. Anthony.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Before I call members statements I want to address the point
of order that was raised yesterday.
Yesterday the Government House Leader, at the end of Question Period, rose on
a point of order that the Leader of the Opposition had used unparliamentary
language when directing a question to the Premier. The Chair took the point of
order under advisement to review the records of Hansard.
The Chair has had an opportunity to review the Hansard as well as listen to
the taped recording of the proceedings. I have also checked the use of the word
viper. In addition to being a venomous snake, the Webster's and Oxford
dictionaries state that viper means a vicious or treacherous person.
Paragraph 409(7) of Beauchesne states: "A question must adhere
to the proprieties of the House, in terms of inferences, imputing motives or
casting aspersions upon persons within the House or out of it."
Clearly, to imply that a member is a treacherous or vicious individual is
inappropriate and it is certainly unacceptable to the House. I now ask the hon.
member to withdraw his remark.
The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am certainly not going to question the Speaker's ruling. Obviously, I
certainly did not, in any way shape or form, mean to be unparliamentary to the
Premier yesterday. If my word had that affect, which obviously it is ruled that
it does, I certainly withdraw it.
I will go on to say, Mr. Speaker, in your quieter moments, would you also be
able to review the word puppet for me please?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
Statements by Members
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I would also like today to stand and pay tribute, on behalf of my colleague
from St. Barbe who was called back to the district on an important matter, to
issue the following statement: pay tribute to Helge Ingstead who died in his
sleep yesterday at an Oslo hospital at the age of 101. Though his home is
obviously very far away from us, Helge Ingstead has played a very crucial and
important
part in the history of our Province; a part that last year culminated
in putting us on the international map in the biggest way ever.
Mr. Ingstead, along with his wife, Anne Stine Ingstead, helped prove
conclusively that the Vikings reached North America. In the 1960s he visited the
area known now as L'Anse aux Meadows. With the help of local residents, he
found traces of the Viking settlement there that dates back 1,000 years, and
laid the groundwork that exposed their international historical significance. It
is because of this work that last year we completed what has become known as the
Great Circle, showing how two vast migration patterns around the planet came
together and culminated on the Great Northern Peninsula of Newfoundland and
Labrador.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Carbonear-Harbour Grace.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SWEENEY: Mr. Speaker, before I make my statement I would like to say
today that I, too, am honoured, like the Leader of the Opposition, of having a
member of the team from my district represented here today as well.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SWEENEY: Our Fifth, Jamie Korab. Hi, Jamie.
Mr. Speaker, on Friday, March 23, I had the pleasure of attending an
e-business symposium at Conception Bay Regional Center in Carbonear. This event
organized by Keyin College, Carbonear Campus, in conjunction with the Mariner
Resource Opportunities Network and Human Resources Development Canada,
highlighted aspects of the fast rising information technology sector and how it
affects the provincial economy.
One example of this growth is the Mariner Resource Opportunities Network were
doing their
part in growing information technology. Through an e-merge
partnership they can help local companies go online. As well, they have the
portal project called: Around the Bay, which highlights the Baccalieu Trail
area. They also serve as regional facilitator to seven local community access
program sites and will soon offer information technology training to volunteers
at these sites.
Mr. Speaker, e-business is here to stay and symposiums such as this one, show
that information technology remains an important facet of the Newfoundland and
Labrador economy.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
Statements by Ministers
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, as minister responsible for heritage, I want
to take a moment to pay tribute to Dr. Helge Ingstad, who passed away this
morning in Norway. This gentleman was an anthropologist, lawyer, author and
explorer.
There are a few among us who can the commitment to a vision, and ideal as
Ingstad did. With his wife, the late Dr. Anne Stine Ingstad, he left Norway and
made this Province his home while he toiled for more than seven years to uncover
the evidence needed to prove the Norse sagas correct that the Vikings discovered
North America at L'Anse aux Meadows 500 years before Caboto.
Ingstad, born in Norway in 1899, trained as a lawyer there but left his
practice to explore the Arctic. In the 1950s he travelled to Greenland to
investigate the Viking settlement where he became increasingly more interested
in the Vinland colony in Newfoundland. Dr. Ingstad became convinced that the
most likely site for Vinland was in northern Newfoundland, so he and his
daughter explored southern Labrador and the Great Northern Peninsula. With a
local member of the community, George Decker, he was led to an area of L'Anse
aux Meadows that we now know as the UNESCO World Heritage Site.
The discovery of L'Anse aux Meadows is hailed as one of the most
significant pieces of archeological and historical research to have ever taken
place in this Province. To Dr. Ingstad and his wife we are grateful for this.
Helge Ingstad was awarded an Honourary Doctorate by Memorial University of
Newfoundland in 1969 in recognition of his work.
He and his wife have the admiration and thanks of a Province and a people for
the archeological and anthropological work which has given us L'anse aux
Meadows; but, more than that, their unselfish and unfailing commitment to this
work has retrieved for us an unknown part of our history, a history that has
allowed us to proudly recognize the arrival of the Vikings at L'anse aux
Meadows more than 1000 years ago.
During last year's millennium event we celebrated our heritage as a people,
we were awakened to a past that is proud and strong, and we came to know better
the history of those who lived here before us and those who visited them.
On behalf of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, I wish to extend
condolences to the daughter of Helge and Anne Stine Ingstad, Benedicte. As we
remember her father's life, we celebrate the unparalleled legacy he left to
this Province.
Let me leave you with the following excerpt from Erik's saga which was
written as Erik prepared for the return journey from his explorations:
These oak-hearted warriors
Lured me to this land...
Let us head back
To our countrymen at home;
Let our ocean striding ship
Explore the broad tracts of sea.
Helge Ingstad, Godspeed.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I, too, join with the minister in paying tribute to an individual who has
made a significant impact and is tied into the history of our Province. We all
saw the effects last year. It was a tremendous event marking that 1000 th
Anniversary. It has great historical significance and it added great tourism
value and dollars to our Province. I think our leader has addressed that quite
well in a statement on behalf of our colleagues on the Northern Peninsula.
As the minister made reference to, I would like to extend condolences to the
family of Helge Ingstad on this particular occasion, the passing of a very
renowned individual who has made a significant impact on the history or our
Province and the world in general.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am pleased to join with the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation and
the Opposition House Leader in paying tribute to the life and work of Dr. Helge
Ingstad. Certainly, he made a great contribution to our Province in unearthing
and discovering some of the roots of historical adventure in this Province, and
its discovery by the Norse 1000 years ago. He has also inspired, I think, those
who have a vision to pursue that vision. I think there is much in this Province,
in our history, in our past, that is still to be uncovered. Those who have a
vision, or have a dream to make a discovery, can be inspired by the work of Dr.
Ingstad, who, in our own adulthood, has made a great accomplishment, a great
discovery, which has provided very beneficial effects to this Province, to
knowledge, to our own culture and our own history.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Oral Questions
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Yesterday, the former Premier and now federal Industry Minister, told the
press that he was bewildered and confused by your stand on water exports. In
fact, he said, and I quote: You know my position. It was very well articulated
when I was there, but Premier Grimes has raised the issue again. I am not sure
why he has, and I think I will wait and talk to him before I comment.
The people of Newfoundland and Labrador are confused, too, Premier. This
debate was a very serious one in this House and in this Province for some time.
The question I have is: Why have you pulled this issue out of the thin air
without so much as consulting the people of the Province, consulting your
Cabinet, consulting your colleagues. In fact, the question is, who did you
consult on this ill-conceived, hare-brained scheme?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I appreciate the fact that the Leader of the Opposition is interested in
having an informed debate about a very important issue in the Province without
the details and the information which we are now gathering, and would already
like to come to a conclusion that something is hare-brained, I think would be
the phrase he used. He tends to use those kinds of statements fairly regularly.
Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is this: It should be understood, and I
believe the people of the Province do understand it, that Minister Tobin decided
that he no longer wanted to have a say in public policy in Newfoundland and
Labrador. He is in Ottawa.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER GRIMES: He left this job voluntarily, Mr. Speaker, because he
wants to make a contribution on another stage, in another scene, and we will
work very closely with him in the best interest of Newfoundland and Labrador.
Those of us that are here will do anything and everything every time with
respect to all of the issues, to try to decide on matters that are in the best
interest of this Province.
With respect to water export, what we have said, and what I have said in this
Province, is that we will have all of the information gathered again with
respect to the Free Trade Agreement, all of the information gathered again with
respect to the status of the federal legislation, all of the information
gathered and examined again with respect to royalties and revenues, all of the
information gathered again with respect to options that are available to us
under the water ban that we have signed as a Province, and we will present all
of the information to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. the Premier now to conclude his answer.
PREMIER GRIMES: If we are to make a change, we will bring it to this
Legislature in the fall and have an informed debate about the export of water
from Newfoundland and Labrador.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: This seems to be, to me, that this may be the first major
recycling initiative of the provincial government.
The Premier's linkage yesterday, or the day before, of water exports to
free tuition is the most crass act I have witnessed from a decade of Liberal
administrations and premiers who have done some crazy things, with one
exception; maybe with the exception of interim Premier Tulk. Did the Premier
consult with representatives within the government? Did he consult with his own
deputy ministers? Did he consult with representatives of post-secondary
institutions in the Province? Or did he consult with representatives from the
student movement in the Province before he flicked this cockamamie idea out to
the public?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, there was no intention from the government
to try to coerce or blackmail, as the language has been used, students into
being in favor of a particular proposal that we may bring in the fall. I did not
consult with students to suggest that if you agree with the government on a
public policy issue we may be able to provide free tuition. That is not the
nature of the way we do business.
We are dealing with a public policy issue with respect to what that
opposition member admitted this morning is the new generation of oil, the
equivalent of oil for the future. Value, unbelievable value, I believe he said
this morning in a public interview, white gold; and we should sit here in
Newfoundland and Labrador, as the government, we should sit here as the
government and not examine the issue as to whether or not we can take the
benefit of that today.
I heard a statement this morning as well, suggesting that we should wait
eight or ten years to look at doing it right. Well, Mr. Speaker, we are
examining it today, to find a way to do it right so that we can start doing it
as soon as possible and reap the benefits at the earliest possible opportunity
for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, not to wait eight or ten years. We
will try to do this in the best interest of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians as
soon as we can.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, if the Premier would like to refresh his
memory, if he wants to have a look at the numbers, on September 29,1999, when we
did our analysis, we presented it to the public. So, if he would like to have a
copy of it, I can present it to him.
I do know this: people in this Province do not want bulk water shipped out
with the expense of jobs and the public Treasury going behind it
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. E. BYRNE: People in this Province want value-added processing in
rural Newfoundland and Labrador. I do know that!
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. E. BYRNE: People in this Province do not want to see two tankers a
day leave this Province to sell water somewhere else, to create wealth and
employment somewhere else, Premier. I do know that!
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member is on a supplementary. I ask him to get to his question.
MR. E. BYRNE: Let me ask him this: Does he agree with the comment made by
the president of the Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Students, who said
yesterday: My first impression, this is the most asinine, ridiculous statement
that I have ever heard for quite some time.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member is on a supplementary. The hon. member knows that
preambles
of any sort should not include quotes from statements, from telegrams, from
papers. I ask the hon. member to get to his question.
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
You may try to slow us down but you are not going to stop us. I will ask the
Premier: Does he agree -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. member to consider the comment he just made.
MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I will get to the question.
Thank you.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
If I correctly understood the member, he indicated that the Chair was trying
to slow him down? Is that what...?
MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, if that was the impression, I apologize.
MR. SPEAKER: Okay.
The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, let me ask the Premier this: Does he agree
with the assessment by the president of the Federation of Newfoundland and
Labrador Students that says this is the most asinine, ridiculous statement that
they have ever heard, that it amounts to blackmail? Does he agree with their
statement saying, we know a lot more about free trade than this Premier and this
government gives us credit for?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I do regret that the president of the Federation of Students would make such
a statement, not knowing whatsoever what the intention of the government is and
how this would unfold, because we have not presented anything to the public yet.
We have given absolutely no detail as to whether or not this will occur or how
it would occur. We said that we are willing to have the issue examined fully and
publicly debated in Newfoundland and Labrador, and hopefully find a way to do
it.
It is unfortunate that some people would be willing to jump to a conclusion
to say - because I think the other words that were used by that student leader
were that we do not want to be selling off our water.
Mr. Speaker, we are not interested in selling off anything. We are interested
in reaping maximum benefits from Newfoundland-based resources for
Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER GRIMES: The only thing I do regret is this: I do regret - because
the Leader of the Opposition has been making some fine speeches lately. They are
supposed to be questions, but he is making some fine speeches. For the life of
me, I do not why he was so anxious to give up the job. I think he is doing a
great job as Leader of the Opposition, and I think you should reconsider maybe
in a week's time and maybe challenge to your own job.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. the Premier to conclude his answer quickly.
PREMIER GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.
It is unfortunate that he voluntarily decided to apply and lend himself to a
recycling program which will occur next weekend here in Newfoundland and
Labrador.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, the Premier may see it as unfortunate that I
am leaving the job but I can tell you that my kids, Olivia and Isaac, are very
excited and fortunate about the fact that I am going to be around a little bit
more.
I would like to ask him this question: This is not the first time this
Premier was involved in this sort of scheme. If you look at Hansard back in
1989, particularly around 1990, he was involved when he was Parliamentary
Assistant to former Premier Clyde Wells, when he stood in this House and said
that the payroll tax had to be introduced for health and post-secondary
education, which was going to be used to lower tuition costs; he said then. The
tax brings in today over $70 million a year; enough, according to the Premier,
to do exactly what he wanted to do in shipping out bulk water. What happened
then, Premier? Is it not a fact that students did not get any free tuition or
even lower tuition, and that from the time you stood in your place and
introduced the payroll tax -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. E. BYRNE: - on the premise that it would provide lower costs, that
tuition fees escalated by some 300 per cent?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
If the Leader of the Opposition wants to spend the time in the Legislature
re-debating an issue from ten years ago, instead of a current issue today, that
is fine with me.
AN HON. MEMBER: Words are important (inaudible).
PREMIER GRIMES: Words are very important, Mr. Speaker, and the Opposition
does a good job of trying to twist them on a regular basis.
Everybody - because he was not in the Legislature at the time - understands
the debate at the time where - and this is what he conveniently forgets to add
and put into the debate as a reminder - that debate occurred in the context of a
government that was eliminating schools taxes, a tax that was the most
regressive tax in Newfoundland and Labrador's history, brought in by the
Opposition when they were there -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER GRIMES: - a tax that they encouraged us to get rid of, which we
did.
Now, the government of that day, no more than the government of any day,
could do without the revenue; so the school tax was eliminated, because it was
not a fair and progressive tax, and it was replaced by a health and
post-secondary education tax.
Everybody in this Province knows that despite what happened to tuition rates
from 1995-2000, because they are going down now - that is the reality of the
day, they are going down - despite what happened in that period, everybody
recognizes that without the revenue that the government collected from what is
now commonly called the payroll tax, that we would have had less money to put
into post-secondary education, and tuition rates would have been even higher. We
would have had less money -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. the Premier now to conclude his answer.
PREMIER GRIMES: - to put into health care, and there would have been more
service cuts which did occur five and six years ago. If he wants to have that
debate over again, instead of debating an issue of today -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
PREMIER GRIMES: - then let's have the debate from ten years and do it
all over again.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, people made up their minds on the export of
bulk water from this Province two years ago, and they have not changed. The only
person who has changed his mind on that in this Premier.
Premier, do you realize that not only outside this Legislature but inside
this Legislature, on both sides, people are asking: Why has this Premier moved
so far and so fast away from the policies that brought them the government?
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. E. BYRNE: Why is it, people are asking - not only outside but inside
this Legislature, Mr. Premier - that you are not standing up for rural
Newfoundland and Labrador?
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. E. BYRNE: Why is it that you have taken so many directions away from
the mandate that you sought? They are the questions that are being asked of you,
Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am glad that the Leader of the Opposition finally got around to the
question that he was instructed to ask today by the leader, by the puppet
master.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER GRIMES: It took him a little longer today to get around to the
daily question from the puppet master. It is a serious point and needs to be
clarified. They talk about the mandate from 1999. The only one of the three
issues that he mentions in the mandate in 1999 that was in the public domain,
being publicly debated in this Province at that time, was Voisey's Bay.
The issue about FPI, that he suggested yesterday, that we had a mandate in
the election. It was not even on the radar screen. It was not being talked about
in Newfoundland and Labrador. It happened long after the election. It was an
issue that the government dealt with because it arose after the election. It was
not being discussed during the election. It was not being contemplated during
the election.
With respect to water exports: Guess how much debate there was about water
export in the 1999 election? Zero. It was not in their platform. It was not in
our platform. It was an issue that arose because a proponent came forward well
after the election and said: I would like to export some water from Gisborne
Lake. The government of that day dealt with it and the government of this day
will deal with it again.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer.
PREMIER GRIMES: Once we have information, we will find out, with full
information, whether or not the people of Newfoundland and Labrador support the
export of water in bulk or other forms from Newfoundland and Labrador.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, the Premier is wrong again. He has only read
up to page eighteen of the Blue Book. If he reads pages nineteen and twenty he
will find the quote there: that a PC government, if elected, will not export
bulk water from Newfoundland and Labrador. So read on Premier!
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. E. BYRNE: You raised the issue of FPI. This is my last question: Have
you decided yet, on the issue of FPI, if you are interested enough -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I want to know if the Premier has decided - now it is the last day in the
House for this week - if he can answer me frankly and straightly; Mr. Straight
Answers. Have you decided if you are interested enough by today to stand up for
places like Harbour Breton, the Northern Peninsula, Bonavista and other places
which are going to be affected by a significant altercation or alteration in the
structure of FPI? Have you decided if you are interested enough, Premier, to do
that today?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
To the Leader of the Opposition, I would encourage you to stay on, you are
doing a great job. I would assume that you have read the front page of The
Telegram today where the whole point that I have been making about this is
exactly stated on the front page of The Telegram . Nobody knows whether or
not the issue that is before FPI and its shareholders is going to go one way or
the other in terms of who runs the organization. We have stated in this
Legislature that, over that issue, we do not have a great deal of concern. We
are only concerned, with whoever is running FPI, that they do it and continue to
do it in a fashion that protects the interests of rural Newfoundlanders and
Labradorians in the rural communities of Newfoundland and Labrador.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.
MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I have a question for the Minister of Industry, Trade and Rural Development.
Before asking the question I would like to welcome him back from his pilgrimage
to find a seat in the kingdom of heaven in Ottawa.
I have a very serious question. Minister, in 1996 Canada and the United
States signed a Softwood Lumber Agreement that caps the total amount of
duty-free lumber that four Canadian provinces sell into the United States. The
Atlantic Provinces are now exempt from that cap and can sell any amount of
lumber into the United States market, duty-free. Lumber production in
Newfoundland and Labrador has nearly doubled, I say to the minister, in the last
five years from 68 million board feet to one 125 million board feet, and half of
this lumber is shipped out of the Province into markets, primarily, in the
United States.
Minister, this five-year agreement expires on March 31, just a couple of days
time. All indications are that Washington is looking for extra tariffs and
duties on all softwood lumber entering the United States, including those from
this Province. I would like to ask the minister, since this is a very serious
trade issue, what the minister and his government has done in order to protect
this Province's interest?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and Rural
Development.
MR. TULK: Let me say to my friend from Bonavista South, first of all, if
ever I should leave this place I hope that he leaves with me so that I don't
miss him.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. TULK: I think it would be a tremendous loss in my life if I couldn't
look across at you everyday and see you.
Now to deal with the issue. Yes, Mr. Speaker, we recognize, and recognized
some time ago, that there is a problem with the Softwood Lumber Agreement with
the U.S. As a matter of fact, I think we met with the Maritime Lumber Producers
Association about a month ago, had a discussion with them and we recognize that
we are fighting the rest of -
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. TULK: He is at it again over there. Can somebody feed him?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. TULK: We recognize that there is a serious problem and that the rest
of Canada is trying to put pressure on the federal government to see that,
indeed, there be one fee structure, or if you want, one trade structure for
Atlantic softwood. We made representation to the federal minister, through the
Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods, that that not be the case and that
they keep the agreement with the U.S. under the North American Free Trade
Agreement the same as it is now.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for Bonavista
South.
MR. FITZGERALD: Minister, just to tell you how important this issue is,
probably as you already know, over 3,000 people are employed in the lumber
industry in this Province on either a full-time or part-time basis. That is
equivalent to the total number of people employed in the mining industry in this
Province. It is about the same number as the number of people employed in the
pulp and paper industry, and three times the projected employment for Voisey's
Bay during peak production.
I ask the minister: If Canada agrees to restrict duty-free lumber exports
from this Province to appease the Americans, has the minister raised the issue
of compensation for companies and workers who make their living from this
industry because of lumber export duties being provided by the United States?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, with regard to the Softwood Lumber Agreement,
yes it is well known and public knowledge that that agreement is up at the end
of March, that five-year agreement. As the minister has already said, we have
made representation to the federal trade minister, Pettigrew. I brought it up
with the federal agrifoods minister a couple of weeks ago in Montreal, Quebec. I
have also written and copied our representative in the federal Cabinet, Mr.
Tobin. Every five years they come up with this - the last fifteen years, it goes
right back to 1985, 1986. There is always a problem at the end of the agreement.
This year there is a crack in it, in the fact that B.C. is looking to go it
alone, or they were there for a few days. Now, today, it is at the stage whereby
the United States, the Bush administration is saying that Atlantic Canada may be
exempt. Our view on this is that we have to negotiate as a nation and as Canada.
This is where we stand today as a Province. We are making sure that our views
are heard on the federal scene and making sure that this is taken up with the
Bush administration in Washington. It is very important. We exported 62 million
board feet out of this Province last year.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. Minister to conclude his answer.
MR. WOODFORD: There was 1.3 billion board feet in Atlantic Canada, but
the ceiling in the whole agreement was 14.7 million board feet before there was
any tariffs or countervailing issues put in place before in the old agreement.
We want at least that and then some. We want Newfoundland to be exempt as we did
before.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.
MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.
The Chair has recognized the hon. the Member for Baie Verte, unless the hon.
member wants to give way for one final supplementary to the hon. member.
One final supplementary, the hon. the Member for Bonavista South.
MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I say to the two ministers who stood on their feet: Premier Hamm, from the
Province of Nova Scotia, has seen fit to get involved in this discussion
himself. We have not heard a word uttered from people opposite.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. FITZGERALD: The minister states he wrote a letter. I am not sure how
effective letter writing is, I say to the Premier.
The minister and his colleagues made a great hoopla over transferring a
couple of hundred public service jobs to rural Newfoundland from St. John's.
Three thousand jobs in this industry are in jeopardy here, I say to people
opposite, and this government have not uttered a word. I wonder if the minister
can explain why the government appears so unconcerned about rural industries in
rural Newfoundland and Labrador.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. FITZGERALD: It is true!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.
MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, as a government we have made representation.
We have been talking to the Newfoundland Lumber Producers' Association, who in
turn recommended and accepted the fact that the Maritime Lumber Bureau would
represent all of the Maritime Provinces and all of the Atlantic Provinces on the
national scene. Yes, there were different premiers of different provinces who
got involved. Yes, there are ministers in each province who got involved. We
know how important this is to Newfoundland and Labrador. That is why we made
representation on several occasions. That is why we are still monitoring the
situation and we are -
MR. TULK: (Inaudible) on the weekend about it.
MR. WOODFORD: Pardon me?
MR. TULK: There is discussion (inaudible).
MR. WOODFORD: Yes, and we -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
My question is for the Premier. Since the Premier has dismissed the right of
former Premier Tobin to talk about policy in this Province, I am going to quote
to him his statement in the House on November 30 - this Premier's statement:
The government has heard the people, the government has listened to the people,
the government has already, with the approval of the opposition parties, passed
second reading which is approval in principle on the whole issue that is
outlined in the petition that water is not to leave this Province in bulk for
export. That issue is dealt with.
I say to the Premier, if he was listening to the people then, can he tell us
who he is listening to now on the issue of bulk export of water?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I appreciate an opportunity to address the issue again, because it needs to
be addressed in the Province several times, obviously; because both parties in
opposition, for some reason, do not even want to talk about it.
What I have put forward is that I do believe that the people of Newfoundland
and Labrador deserve, because it is such a valuable resource, admitted by the
Leader of the Opposition, it is such an incredibly valuable resource, that the
people of the Newfoundland and Labrador deserve to have a full, informed debate
again about whether or not it makes sense and is to our benefit to export water
from Newfoundland and Labrador either in bulk form, bottle form, or both, and we
will not be deterred from gathering the information and having the debate.
We did hear before, but people like the Member for St. John's South wanted
to fearmonger -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. the Premier now to conclude his answer.
PREMIER GRIMES: He wanted to fearmonger about implications under NAFTA.
Mr. Speaker, just let me read one quote from the NAFTA agreement where it
says: If you let them export water, it means they can rush in here from the
United States and take our water and run off with the water.
That is what he was saying. The words say this: If an investor comes forward,
there shall be accorded to any other party the same treatment as an investor in
this Province, which means they have to go through the same environmental
process, the same permitting, go through all the same regulations as anybody
else in Newfoundland and Labrador. They cannot come and take our water. They
make you believe they can come and take the water!
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER GRIMES: They do not want to have a real debate, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi
Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
So, not only is former Premier Tobin ignorant on this issue; so is federal
Minister Anderson who said yesterday that, once you turn it into a good, it will
be subject to export elsewhere.
I would ask the Premier to tell us about what his government has done since
November of 1999 on the issue of royalties on bottled water, when they announced
a ministerial committee would report in ninety days. Have they done anything in
terms of supporting the bottle water industry in this Province, developing a
system of royalties, and increasing this Province's gain from $6,000 to
somewhere approaching a reasonable royalty on bottled water?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
When we have the informed debate - and words are important - when we have the
informed debate about the issues of exporting water from Newfoundland and
Labrador for the benefits of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians in bulk and/or in
bottles, all of these issues will be presented in the public with a factual
basis, and anyone who wants to suggest that someone could come in to
Newfoundland and Labrador bypass the government, ignore the people, and just run
in here with anything they want and scoop up the water and run away with it - we
will have an informed, rational debate.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
Question Period has ended.
Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Notices of Motion;
Answers to Questions for Which Notice has been Given; Petitions.
Orders of the Day
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I am looking for the appropriate Order of the Day.
I have it.
MR. SULLIVAN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
On a point of order, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.
MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Speaker, it was a little noisy. With the permission of
the Government House Leader, we have a couple of petitions to present - in fact,
we have three petitions to present - if we could revert to that item on the
Order Paper.
MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.
MR. HEDDERSON: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to present a petition that was
circulated not only in my district but in the area of Trinity and Conception
Bay. It is a petition that amazingly has 13,000 names on it. The petition calls
for a review of the zoning with regard to insurance, from Zone 1, which includes
the St. John's area, to a Zone 2. A recent re-zoning of the Burin and
Bonavista Peninsulas will enable that particular zone, Zone 2, to get much
cheaper insurance rates.
Now, the rationale for keeping the Avalon region - that is the whole Avalon
Peninsula - in Zone 1, is that all of the drivers, all of the automobile drivers
in the Avalon Peninsula region, really use the same roads. The argument of the
movers of this petition clearly point out that is not true.
When you look at the driving patterns of the people in and around St. John's,
it is completely different than the driving patterns of people out in the
Whitbourne-Markland area, upper and lower Trinity, down Bay de Verde region, up
along Carbonear-Harbour Grace, and these 13,000 people are suffering with regard
to high insurance rates.
What these people want is, they want the government to do a review so that
the rationale for this becomes obviously very, very clear to them. They cannot
understand how they can be penalized. They live well beyond 100 kilometres
outside of the St. John's region. Not only are we hearing from these people,
but if you look up the Southern Shore, down around Placentia area, these areas
as well are under that same zoning. I would suspect that my colleagues may speak
on that at some later time, but the reason to bring it to the attention of this
House is again to encourage the minister to review and come back to the people,
these 13,000 people and more, who have signed this petition, to come back to
these people and give them a very clear reason or reasons why the driving
patterns of people - for example in Bay de Verde - are called similar. When we
are talking about this particular region, we are talking about a region made up
of -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member's time is up.
MR. HEDDERSON: By leave, Mr. Speaker?
MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?
AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.
MR. HEDDERSON: The region that I am referring to is mostly, for the most
part, a rural area. The density of the population on the Avalon Peninsula is in
and around St. John's and Mount Pearl. So when we talk about looking at
rezoning we are asking the government to look at the people who are living in
these areas. These are mostly senior citizens whose driving patterns are just a
kilometer or two a day.
I call upon the minister - again, if he would look at the names behind this
petition. If the minister would look at, once again, reviewing this entire
situation. We are not looking at the whole Avalon Peninsula. We are looking at
drawing the lines where the patterns certainly are different. These people
cannot understand why, in Bonavista and Burin, they could be put in Zone 2
whereas parts of the Avalon Peninsula have not been considered. Again, a plea to
the minister to change it.
I especially congratulate the mover of this petition, Victoria Harnum of
Harbour Grace. She is in the gallery today. I congratulate her for taking the
initiative of sending around these petitions to the local stores, the local
areas, and getting 13,000 names. I believe this petition certainly indicates
that this issue is not dead. Again, a call to the minister to review the
situation.
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The Chair would like to take this opportunity to welcome to
the gallery today Mayor Walwin Blackmore of the town of Grand Falls-Windsor.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
Orders of the Day
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. LUSH: Order 2, Committee of Supply. We will be debating the
Legislature and Executive Council.
On motion, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on
Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.
CHAIR (Mercer): Order, please!
The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.
MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I did have some questions for the minister, the President of Treasury Board.
The questions I had were more particular to the Estimates themselves. I had
hoped that she would be in her place and be able to respond to these, but I
understand that she is going to be absent for a few moments. We do understand
now that the President of Treasury Board is available for some questions.
I want to go to 3.1.05, 3.1.06 and 3.1.07, to kind of finish up this
section
that we did not complete yesterday afternoon. This is the Executive Council
under Treasury Board, 3.1.05, the Strategic and Human Resource Policy. I did
note last year that you had budgeted $547,800 and the revised budget went up to
$618,300. I want to ask the minister what is the occasion for this rather
significant increase? I notice it is back this year to $599,800. Under Salaries,
3.1.05.01, salary changes over the last two years.
CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I apologize to the member, I was on my way out of the House for a moment. I
think I got the question as it relates to the increase in Salaries in 3.1.05,
under the Strategic and Human Resource Policy. Is that correct?
MR. H. HODDER: Yes.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: What we have done here is added a permanent position
during the fiscal year, and that has accounted for the increase.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.
MR. H. HODDER: You said you added a new position. Would that be a
permanent position, a temporary position with a years' contract, or is this
person on some kind of contractual basis?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: It is a new permanent policy position.
MR. H. HODDER: Thank you very much, Madam Minister.
In the issue of Transportation and Communications, .03; you had $28,200 last
year but it went up to $51,000. I wonder if the minister could explain why the
increase was nearly 100 per cent? Also, this year it is back to $28,200. What
happened last year to drive those travel costs and communication costs to almost
100 per cent more than you had allocated?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
As the member opposite would know, this particular subsection covers
Executive Council, the Department of Finance, the Department of Labrador &
Aboriginal Affairs, as well as the Public Service Commission for the Training
and Development Division piece. As a result of all of the departments and
increases in training demands, travel was increased because obviously we don't
just do that sort of thing only in St. John's. We travel around the Province
to do the training for our employees, all across the Island as well as Labrador.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.
MR. H. HODDER: If that is the rationale, Madam Minister, then one would
think that this year you will be doing the same level of training that you were
doing last year. Last year you used $51,000 but this year you are back to
$28,200. Does that mean that you are not going to be doing as much training in
out-of-town locations this year as you were doing last year?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Again, you can see that the original budget was at what the current budget is
estimated for this year. Right now, we are planning just to do our usual. The
way it works is that there are needs that arise throughout the year that you
have to meet those requirements based on the requests that would be made. Right
now, we are budgeting what we had previously budgeted last year. Hopefully, we
will not spend as much if we do not need it, but if we do, you can see we will,
to meet the training needs of our employees.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.
MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Madam Minister.
If we could go to the next item there, the Opening Doors, up front I want to
say that I am very supportive of this particular initiative of government. This
is employing opportunities for persons with disabilities. It is an initiative, I
think, of which all members of this House are quite supportive. Certainly, we
give encouragement to the government to provide equal opportunities for access
to jobs.
Also, I compliment the government, because when government does something
good, I want to be the first to say that they are doing something right, and not
criticizing for the sake of criticizing.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: A breath of fresh air, I say to the Member for Waterford
Valley.
MR. H. HODDER: We do not get the chance very often to compliment the
government but, when it comes to hiring people with disabilities, this is an
area where I can compliment the government and say to Madam Minister that she
herself has show a strong interest in this particular program for a long time.
MR. FITZGERALD: Stop praising her, Harvey. Don't go praising her; it
might go to her head.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes, come on, get with the program. Get back to
criticizing.
MR. FITZGERALD: She is not tuned in to being praised from over here.
MR. H. HODDER: I do say to my hon. colleague, the Member for Bonavista
South, it is a rare occasion.
On behalf of all of those people with disabilities, the challenges are still
very great, I say to the minister. We have not gone as far as we should be
going, but there have been significant improvements. I certainly have some
complimentary words to say to the minister on behalf of those people who are
participating in the JEEPS program.
Madam Minister, under Salaries, however, we do note that last year you
budgeted $1,847,200, you actually spent $1,748,800, and this year you are going
to spend $2,048,500. I want to ask the minister what new positions we are going
to be putting in place to account for this increase, and also whether these
positions will all be in the St. John's region. Could you give us some idea as
to how these opportunities are spread throughout the Province as well? Are we
providing the same level of opportunities to rural Newfoundland communities
under this program as we would be to the St. John's or Corner Brook areas?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Again, I want to thank and acknowledge the comments made by the Member for
Waterford Valley with respect to this program. We do agree, it is a good
program. The program is focused around increased positions by ten, as you know.
As far as I am aware right now, not all of the positions are filled. I guess
they would have to go through the posting process and look at the needs.
From what I can gather, a number of various regions have submitted the needs
for positions. I guess they will look at the total needs, what they are for, and
make the decision on exactly where they go - I do not think that has been
determined yet - but there is no intent to harbor them all in one area or the
other. It would be based on the application process, the types of jobs that
would be required, and the needs of a particular region.
As far as I know, those ten positions have not been allocated by population
or by any other reason except what is needed throughout the regions and the
requests that they have put forward.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.
MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Madam Minister.
I just hope that when you get the chance to bring forward the discussions to
the federal level, and we talk about allocating money on the basis of need, that
we can convince the federal government, of course, that should be the philosophy
that they should be allocating money to our health care system on the same
basis.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Absolutely.
MR. H. HODDER: In this program, as the minister has said, we try to look
at the needs of the people, and where they are located, and how we can most
conveniently find job opportunities for them in the regions closest to where
they are. Certainly, I say to the minister, the change in the federal formula,
which, of course, is based on population only in terms of our health care
dollars, has really constrained the ability of Newfoundland and Labrador to be
able to provide the same level of services in health care as we know exist in
other provinces.
I wanted to move over, if I could, to the French Language program. That is
3.1.07. I want to note again that the budget is basically the same as it was
last year. I did notice that you allocated, under 01. Salaries, $335,900 last
year, you spent $377,400. That extra $40,000, is that because the
recently-retired Premier, the moving-on Premier, in preparation for going back
to Ottawa, he needed more intense language lessons? I did note that he did speak
in the House of Commons a few days ago in French, so we assume that we spent
$40,000 making sure that former Premier Tobin's French Language skills were up
to scratch?
MR. TULK: Former former.
MR. H. HODDER: Former former. I apologize to the Member for Bonavista
North. He is a former former Premier. We forgot you so fast, I say to the
member, we had not expected you back actually. We had expected you to be sending
us a note and saying to your former colleagues here how good it was to be in
Ottawa, how red the carpet was. We certainly had reason to expect that we would
hear big announcements on behalf of the member.
Why did we have such an increase last year, I say to the minister? We went
from $335,900 on French Language instruction to $377,400. There must be a reason
for that. Why did that occur?
CHAIR: Before recognizing the President of Treasury Board, the Chair
would like to recognize the presence in today's galley of Mr. Tom Osborne, the
Mayor of Arnold's Cove.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
In response to the question, there was an increase in the temporary
instructors' positions for French training. I cannot speak to exactly who
received the benefit of the extra temporary positions and instructors in French
training.
AN HON. MEMBER: It wasn't me.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: And it wasn't me.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.
MR. H. HODDER: Minister, how many French Language instructors do we
employ, and how many students in the civil service - I will call them clients
within the civil service - are now actively engaged in the French Language
instructional programs?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr .Chair.
We have a manager of the French Language unit; we have a staff training and
development office; we have three language training officers. One is provided by
the federal government. We have a bilingual liaison officer and a bilingual
administrative assistant; and we also have the temporary assistants as well.
With respect to the exact number, I would have to find that out. I do not keep a
running tab on who is taking French lessons, if you are registered or not, but I
can certainly find out. It is not an issue.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.
MR. EFFORD: Harvey, the (inaudible) question will depend on what is going
to happen with the Dow Jones tomorrow.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes, I was thinking there was a few other issues I have
been paying attention to lately, I don't mind admitting to my colleagues.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MS J.M. AYLWARD: There are a few other things on the go recently, I would
say to my colleague, like a Budget and things like that.
MR. H. HODDER: I would say to the hon. the President of Treasury Board
that yes, we understand that her mind might be occupied in other places these
days, particularly over the next few days. As we hear from the media this
morning, there is a lot of activity occurring in and around St. John's with
negotiations with the public service, and that kind of thing.
If I could move over to the Office of the Comptroller General and we note
that again there has been some changes. Last year there was $2.26 million
allocated, the actual spending was $2,089,700, but this year it is back to
$2.278 million. I was wondering if the minister could tell us why there has been
an increase in the allocation of funds for the Comptroller General?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
There were some vacancies which occurred during the year which we would be
planning on filling, then you add that on to the other salary benefits and
costs. That would attribute for the increase.
CHAIR: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Just a couple to finish off this
section here under Comptroller General.
Professional Services was budgeted at $50,000, spent $120,000 and back to
$50,000 this year. That must have been an historic amount. Why the extra
$70,000, 140 per cent, over the expenditure in that area?
CHAIR: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: I just ask for clarification, under Professional
Services you are referring?
MR. SULLIVAN: Yes, it is.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: The reason that is higher is because there was an
increased use of consultant services for various projects under that particular
section.
MR. SULLIVAN: What type of projects might be over and above the normal?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: I think one of the issues was around the accounting
systems. Looking at the accounting systems and also -
MR. SULLIVAN: Following the Auditor General's advice, that type?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: The payroll systems. Those kinds of initiatives, from
what I can gather.
CHAIR: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Under 06. Purchased Services, there was an expenditure of $65,500 over and
above last year and of course, in this fiscal year now it is budgeted at the
same amount again. Would that have been along the same lines, the same reason
for that too?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: The reason for this particular one is that there was an
increase in the usage of the credit card payments.
MR. SULLIVAN: Pardon?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: There was an increase in the fee cost because of the
increased usage in the credit card payments associated with this section.
CHAIR: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.
MR. SULLIVAN: More credit card use than historically, is that basically -
MS J.M. AYLWARD: No, the fee was higher for the usage, not the usage
itself.
MR. SULLIVAN: Oh, the fee has gone up.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Right.
MR. SULLIVAN: So wouldn't that reflect in the next year again?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: No, from what I can gather, there was some sort of an
arrangement where I think we are going to get it back to where it was.
MR. SULLIVAN: Okay. So there was some dispute or it was challenged and
you went back and requested that it was too high? You said the fee was too high,
you wanted it rolled back and you got a positive response back. Would that be
it?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: No, we are under the impression that this year the rates
will be more stable than they were. From what I can gather the cost was higher
because of the usage. I guess what we are looking at doing this year is having a
better planned usage of the credit cards with respect to the payments.
MR. SULLIVAN: Okay.
That pretty well completes that
section there so I am going to - I think my
colleague, the leader, has a few things he wanted to touch on under Executive
Council.
CHAIR: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
On Tuesday, before Private Members' Day, we concluded some remarks on the
Budget specifically dealing with the Intergovernmental Affairs Department. As I
indicated at that time, my feeling, this is a department that plays a crucial
and critical role in all aspects of government but yet, at the same time, it is
probably one of the most - or I should say it this way - the least understood
ministerial department in government.
The last day we got into the heading dealing with Policy Analysis and
Coordination. The Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs today, who happens to be
also the House Leader, represents this provincial government in all
interprovincial relations. In fact, in all relations outside of Canada. That is
the line department that takes the lead, coordinates, assists, provides analysis
on government policy, vis-- vis, our sister provinces. We got into the
discussion on Tuesday, vis--vis, of what approach or what has been provided on
the whole notion of Upper Churchill, Lower Churchill and the position of the
government. I would like to ask the minister a few questions today dealing with
- on page 20, budget subhead, 2.3.03. Policy Analysis and Coordination.
Obviously, with the debate that is occurring, the impact of bulk export of
water, et cetera: What positions has government put forward recently, if any, on
this debate to the federal government?
MR. LUSH: I don't think, Mr. Chairman, that the department has put
anything together recently to the federal government. We are presently
coordinating and gathering information for the Premier. That is basically what
we are doing now, collecting, gathering information so that we can be
enlightened as to what all the factors are in this situation. That is basically
what we are doing now, collecting, gathering information for the Premier. At
that point in time, when we have gathered the information, I think then the
Premier will decide whether or not he wants us to proceed to the federal scene.
CHAIR: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Under this section, Salaries; $521,300. Do you have
somebody specifically on this file, or do you have somebody specifically on the
Lower Churchill file? Do you have someone specifically dealing with the federal
government, for example, on the Canada Health and Social Transfer Act? How is
the department organized based - I have the salary details here. I am not
worried about the salary details and the explanations, that has been provided.
But, what I am interested in are some of the duties that the minister may have
provided to his staff related to these important files.
AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, I am sorry.
MR. E. BYRNE: I will be finished in a moment, I say to the Clerk.
If he could elaborate. How do you have that staff structured in terms of
duties and responsibilities, what files they have, vis--vis interprovincial
relations, the federal government on Canada Health and Social Transfer, on
issues that are emerging like bulk export, for example? I wonder if he could
elaborate a little bit on that, please?
CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. LUSH: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The department is divided into three areas really. We have the
administration, we have people dealing with policy, and we have people dealing
with the regionalization. So, yes, there are people in policy. These people do
work on advising the government on a variety of issues, not only the issue on
Gisborne, but on a variety of issues. I say to the member, it is not a large
department. There would not be large numbers of people, but there would be
people in policy who would be committed to, dedicated to, and assigned to
working on a large variety of problems. So yes, there is a division of policy
and these nine or ten people would be working in a number of areas. I am just
trying to think now, I don't think that they would be specific. They are sort
of in a general capacity. For example, we have people who advise on defense.
That might be the most specific one, people who advise us on defence, but in
other matters - we also have another person in French. There is a person who
advises on Quebec affairs. The others would be more general and they would work
on a variety of files.
CHAIR: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
In terms of outside of the intergovernmental relations within Canada - I
throw this question out more as an opportunity than anything else to the
minister. Do you play a role, for example, in providing analysis and support say
to the Department of Tourism in terms of any market analysis in developing
tourism in the Province? Do you provide a role in any way, shape or form with
the Department of Industry and Rural Renewal now in terms of possible
opportunities that you have identified, or does the departments from time to
time make requests of the Intergovernmental Affairs secretary, their department,
to play a role? Do you provide on the one hand, and proactive, and at times upon
requests from other line departments - do you get involved in that aspect or is
it on a more general basis?
CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. LUSH: With respect to tourism and culture, particularly - the hon.
member is using that as an example - it would be more on a general basis in
terms of facilitating and assisting. If they were looking for some particular
assistance in federal matters, or they wanted this department to facilitate what
they are doing, but in getting down to the actual details of formulating policy
with respect to markets or determining markets, no. With the Department of
Tourism it would be more of a general matter. In the specifics itself, the
Department of Intergovernmental Affairs in specific matters would deal with
defense. That is a real big one, really. A lot of members are probably not aware
of how large defense is to the economy of this Province. For example, Goose Bay
itself, with respect to its military training, the low level flying, that last
year meant $91 million to this Province. So that is a direct line with this
department. The IGA is the direct line in that department.
Labour mobility; we are presently working with labour mobility with Quebec.
We are in a line situation there. Honourable members will know that with Quebec,
for a long time there have been some complaints with Newfoundlanders, in
particular, that we cannot work in Quebec but Quebecers can work in
Newfoundland. It has been a sore point with Labrador City. No, I should say
Labrador. It has been a sore point there with Labradorians where Quebecers come
in and work. We don't have the reciprocal agreement but we are working on
that, and I might say, we have made some headway. We have made headway now with
workers. We had an exchange of workers in Fatima in Quebec, and we are now
working with contractors. We think, within time, we will have that worked out
where there can be interaction between companies in Quebec and Newfoundland, and
with the workers. That is a large area.
The other thing that we are responsible for is the Ministerial Council of
Social Policy. The IGA minister is a minister of that particular organization
that develops social policy for all of Canada, and the Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs is an active participant on that committee and
hopefully, is instrumentally in developing social policy for Canada.
Also, we are a line department - which is not very big at the moment but we
hope that it becomes bigger - with respect to immigration. The hon. member
mentioned that the department coordinates - that is the big word - and assists
with the other departments that have federal connections, and we participate in
all agreements for economic development in the Province. I do not think there
are any exceptions. I think we are a part to all of the agreements being signed
for the Province. All in all, it is a very important department.
I want to say, in conclusion, to the Leader of the Opposition, that I want to
thank him for giving me the opportunity to say this. He mentioned Tuesday, I
think it was, when he raised this matter of what we were doing with other - he
talked about what active files there were. I should say, one of the most active
files to the minister now is equalization. We are working diligently to assist
other departments that work on that to ensure that we get a better deal re the
development of our resources. So equalization, working on that particular file,
is a large area at this particular moment. We intend to contact and meet with
all IGA ministers right throughout the country to impress upon them the
importance of Newfoundland getting a better deal and somehow a better share of
the development of our resources, particularly our offshore oil, as it applies
to equalization and related matters.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.
MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
It is certainly a pleasure to hear the Member for Terra Nova, my member, the
Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, asking some pointed questions about his
department. We are curious over here about what the Department of
Intergovernmental Affairs does, and what their involvement is, because we saw so
little action from the former minister. We saw a minister sit in this House
before, for a full term, who did so little and never stood on his feet to answer
a question, we wondered what the Intergovernmental Affairs Department was all
about.
MR. NOEL: The questions are supposed to come from that side.
MR. FITZGERALD: The questions came from this side. I remember, as one
person who questioned, I say to the member, who stood up and asked you some
questions on Employment Insurance. You stood up and talked about going before
your own party up in Ottawa and introducing a resolution that would allow
changes to the Employment Insurance Program. I might add, it was a resolution
that was brought forward that you didn't even have the interest to hang around
and debate. When that particular issue was brought to the floor at your meeting
up in Ottawa, at your federal meeting with your federal cousins, the resolution
was introduced and when it came for discussion there wasn't one member, not
one member, I say to the people here, from that side, who attended that meeting,
who had the courage to get up and talk about the hurt that was going to be
installed and inflicted on rural Newfoundlanders because of the changes that
were brought about to the EI program.
MR. NOEL: We got changes.
MR. FITZGERALD: You got changes, but what changes did you get? Did you
bring about the changes that were really needed? The one thing that hurt people
more in rural Newfoundland as it relates to Employment Insurance, and this is
what your former Premier campaigned on. This is what your cousins up in Ottawa,
the leader of your cousins up in Ottawa, when he stood up before the people and
said, I apologize - remember that a few short months ago? - I apologize to the
people of Canada for bringing about such draconian changes to the EI program. I
was wrong.
Premier Tobin campaigned, and the Member for Terra Nova was with him, by his
side, going out and saying that we are going to make those changes. We are going
to change the legislation. We are going to re-introduce it to the House of
Commons so that it will reflect your need, so that it will reflect the hurt that
has been brought about to people who are unfortunate enough to find themselves
on Employment Insurance.
I say to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, he knows the topic very
well. His district is not a lot different than mine, where I would suggest to
him there are high unemployment levels. Many people there are fortunate enough,
if you would, to have a seasonal job, but unfortunate enough to have to draw EI
somewhere during the year. That particular program, that particular piece of
legislation, as it is introduced to the House of Commons today, certainly has
not gone far enough to reflect the need by the people who have to access that
particular program.
The minister knows full well what I am talking about. He knows full well that
the divisor rule for the Employment Insurance program is hurtful to the people
who have to access EI. I think of our fish plants. I think of the people who
work at seasonal occupations, especially in the fishing industry. That is the
first industry that comes to mind when you think of rural Newfoundland. The
logging industry is another one. It is seasonal work, I say to the minister. The
people themselves do not determine when they go to work. The people themselves
do not determine when they get laid off. It all happens by forces outside of
their control.
Up until those changes that your now minister was instrumental in bringing
about back in 1996 when it came before the House of Commons, when they brought
in the divisor rule, they lengthened the amount of time that somebody could draw
EI and they increased the amount of time the people would need to qualify for
EI. They brought in the intensity rule, where they almost made people think they
were criminals because they had to draw Employment Insurance. Then they go and
pay lip service by introducing it back to the House of Commons again, no mention
of the divisor rule, no changes in the length of time that people can draw EI.
Right now in this Province today, especially in our fish plants, people who
work - and I think this time of the year normally we see some activity in the
shellfish processing plants around the Province. You do not have to drive very
far to see the ice conditions around our coast. Most of our seasonal workers
today, Minister, because of those rules and regulations, are now finding
themselves with their Employment Insurance about to expire at the end of this
month. Most of them will lose their Employment Insurance as of this weekend.
Most of them will find themselves unable to feed their families. Most of them,
through no fault of their own, will probably have the find and make their way to
a social services department in order to ask for a handout in order to be able
to keep body and soul together.
Those are the issues, I say to the minister, that I would feel a great
comfort if I knew that you, as the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, could
tell me that you are actively pursuing that and, yes, they have held it up in
the House of Commons and, yes, we are looking at changing it; but I do not hear
a word.
I brought up a topic here today on softwood lumber. Premier Hamm up in Nova
Scotia got involved in it himself because it was so important. It is an industry
worth $30 million in this Province today. It employs 3,000 people. That is more
people than work within the mining industry of this Province; that is double the
number of people who will work at Voisey's Bay at the peak of production; that
is more people than work in the pulp and paper industry of this Province, but we
have not heard one sound from over there.
The minister of forestry got up and said he wrote a letter. Did Premier Hamm
write a letter? Was he satisfied that it was enough to write a letter to show
somebody I am interested? Maybe I should ask the minister to table the letter
that he wrote. Maybe that is in order. I ask the minister what he has done to
protect the lumber industry in this Province today.
The lumber industry is very prevalent in my district. I have two major
sawmills, two major employers. One industry, one company, Jamestown Lumber
Company Ltd., a company that came from a group of people forming a co-op, going
out and taking their own money and putting it together and saying that we
believe in this industry and we are going to make this industry grow. I am not
sure how many people started out in the beginning. I think it might have been
six or eight people. Today, that same company employs anywhere from sixty to
eighty people. If you talk to the owner there, Mr. Bob Dingwall - a lot of
people know him here - he is a real good business man. A person who, when you
talk to him, I say to members in this House of Assembly, does not talk about the
price of lumber, he does not talk about a new machine that he put in, he does
not talk about the need to have other things done with the company. The first
thing he talks about is how proud he is to be able to employ local people from
that particular area coming to work at his sawmill. You go there today, you
drive down between Jamestown and Winter Brook, and see the business that this
man and that board of directors have created, and I can tell you that if we are
going to be looking for something to happen in rural Newfoundland and Labrador,
there is a great lesson to be learned. There is a great lesson to be learned by
people like Bob Dingwall. Those are the people who are going to drive the
economy of that particular area, and I do not think it is good enough for this
government to sit back and rest on their laurels, to write off a letter to - I
do not know which minister they wrote; he did not say. He said he sent a letter
off to some -
MR. LUSH: Minister Pettigrew.
MR. FITZGERALD: I beg your pardon? Who?
MR. LUSH: Minister Pettigrew.
MR. FITZGERALD: Minister Pettigrew. I do not think it is good enough, Mr.
Chair, when you see benefits that are derived from this particular industry, to
say that we wrote a letter.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. FITZGERALD: March 31, two days' time? Sunday, March 31, we should
all be wary of the Ides of March, is it? A lot of things can happen on March 31.
MR. NOEL: (Inaudible) the Ides of March?
AN HON. MEMBER: March 15.
MR. FITZGERALD: I do not know when it is, but I use it as a date. It is
date that, if we do not step up to the plate and if we do not step up and
protect the industries that mean so much to rural Newfoundland and Labrador,
then I fear what will happen.
You just come up a little bit further, up to that particular
section of
Bonavista Bay that we know as Goose Bay and you come to another sawmill there,
Bloomfield Lumber Ltd. I have to say this to the minister: only two summers ago,
I drove up to Ottawa and I was driving through Montreal - it is pretty fast
traffic going through Montreal, in places, especially at rush hour - and I got
behind this transport truck. There was only myself and my wife and I said: Just
look at that. Here I am, in Montreal, nobody knows us, driving with thousands of
cars passing you by and meeting you, and you look at a tractor trailer in front
of your car and what do you see? You see a tractor trailer full of lumber with
Bloomfield Lumber Ltd. written across it. You almost want to stop somebody - I
do not know who owned the truck. I did not know who it was, but I did pass it
and I had to honk my horn because there was something in common there. There was
something that made you feel good. You knew the people, and when you saw the
Bloomfield Lumber Ltd. sign you could relate it to the owner. You could relate
it to the people you know who are going to work there. A lot of that lumber, I
say to people here, from Jamestown Lumber Company Ltd. and Bloomfield Lumber
Ltd,. and I am going to use those two industries because they are the two
industries I know best because they are in my district and I know what they do
for that particular district.
AN HON. MEMBER: Roger, were you playing (inaudible)?
MR. FITZGERALD: I don't know what I was playing. I don't know
anything about that.
I say to the minister that looking after our industries is not unlike running
in an election. If the election is called today, you don't go out, or at least
I don't - I suppose everybody has their own way of how they campaign and how
they electioneer - but you do go out knocking on doors that you don't know
first. The first thing you do is support up what you already have. You make sure
the support that was there for you is there for you now, and that it is firmed
up, and you touch the people who you know first. Then you move on. That is what
I say to the minister. There is not a lot of difference. If you are going to do
something to help rural Newfoundland and Labrador, then you have to support what
is already there first. You have to support the industry that we know is doing
alright. You have to support the industry that we know has a future. We have to
support the industry that you know is a viable industry, but part of making that
a viable industry is to protect -
MR. LUSH: (Inaudible) those people know that I support them.
MR. FITZGERALD: I beg your pardon?.
MR. LUSH: (Inaudible).
MR. FITZGERALD: I am not doubting that for one moment, Mr. Chair, but it
is a situation -
MR. LUSH: (Inaudible).
MR. FITZGERALD: Pardon?
MR. LUSH: (Inaudible).
MR. FITZGERALD: For obvious reasons, I say to the member, but that is no
reflection. The minister knows where I am.
There are two great industries, and it bothers me. If people saw me here the
last number of days that I have been standing, and we have had our plate full of
questions, you stand up at the end of Question Period and there is only a minute
or two left. So it is not something that was only dreamed up today. This is
something that I wanted to ask for days.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. FITZGERALD: That is right. It all goes by getting what you feel needs
to be on first and then you identify a time slot. The clock does not always work
with your list.
CHAIR: Order, please!
Speaking of the clock, your time is up now.
AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.
CHAIR: By leave.
MR. FITZGERALD: The clock does not always agree with the list. I would
encourage the government to, for God's sake, do what needs to be done. Up
until now it has not been a great big issue with - well, I shouldn't say it
hasn't been a great big issue, but this past five years it has not been an
issue, because we could produce and those sawmills could hum. Whatever product
came out was taken somewhere else, and if it wasn't sold locally, the majority
of it went South of the Border. Now, we can see that closed off, and that causes
me great concern. Already the price of lumber is not what it was a few years
ago. Already the stockpiles in those mills have grown from what they used to be.
I say to you, Mr. Chairman, we are not talking about mills here that are
sending out squares or sending out round timber, we are talking about secondary
processing. That is what we are talking about. We are talking about two mills
today that are taking
part in secondary processing. The product that you see
leaving Jamestown Lumber and Bloomfield Lumber is taken to the extent that they
can take it, and ready for the supermarket shelves, ready to go in and build a
house. When it leaves it is either 2x4, 2x8, 2x10 or 2x3, whatever it is that
that market demands.
The other thing is, far different from what happened a few years ago, now it
is kiln dried. You drive down through Bloomfield now or Lethbridge or you drive
down through Jamestown and you will see, any hour of the night, a light and you
will see the smoke powering out of a couple of big houses or establishments,
right on that particular lot, known as kilns.
AN HON. MEMBER: Kilns it is.
MR. FITZGERALD: Kilns, that is what it is, yes.
One company had the unfortunate experience of having their kiln burned just a
couple of short years ago, and within months after the site was cleaned up, a
construction company moved in there and there was another kiln built, and they
are back processing and back producing lumber now as they did years ago.
So, you are not talking about a small employer. You are not talking about an
employer who is in here every day looking for government handouts. You are not
talking about an employer who closes up shop today and comes back and says: Mr.
Minister, I employed fifty people last year and now I need x number of dollars
or else I am going to close up shop and we won't be employing those people
anymore. You are talking about a solid company. You are talking about two
companies that are operated by solid management, and they are going to be there
for the long run.
I would like to, since I am on leave, ask the minister a couple of questions
and let him respond to it. I would like to ask the minister, number one, if he
would table the correspondence that was written to Minister Pettigrew explaining
the need to have those tariffs not continued with or not brought about in
Atlantic Canada. We would like to operate in the same environment as we have
operated and nurture this industry and allow it to unfold and expand and create
jobs as it has done before.
Even though the question was asked of the Minister of Industry, Trade and
Rural Development, I would think that the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs
would have played a
part in that as well. I would think that the Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs would be the liaison between this government and its
federal cousin up in Ottawa. I would think that this issue, being as big as it
is, that the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs would have had some
correspondence back and forth to Minister Pettigrew and the other people in
Atlantic Canada who would have taken part, because it affects Nova Scotia and
New Brunswick just as much as it affects Newfoundland and Labrador.
I wonder if he would allow us access and provide us with a copy of the piece
of correspondence that the minister referred to here today. While he answering
some of the concerns that I have raised, maybe he would also like to tell us
what he has done, since he has been the minister, to change back the changes
that have been implemented with the Employment insurance program to help
Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, because I can assure you that the way it is
right now, it is no great help.
Also, yesterday we heard the former Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture
stand, a fellow with a great knowledge of the fishing industry - naturally you
would expect him to because look at from whence he came - and he talked about
this new board that was struck to look at future allocation of stocks and quotas
within the fishing industry.
Maybe the minister, while answering those questions, can also ask if he has
made any representation there to have a member of the board appointed as a
Newfoundlander; a Newfoundlander appointed to that board? While we stand here
and say that the members of the board are from British Columbia, New Brunswick
and Quebec, we all say: Why haven't we got representation? Well what
representation have we made in order to made sure that we have had
representation? I would think that the minister would have been involved in that
particular debate as well and would have put forward his concerns and talked
about the need to have this government and his government's views and opinions
implemented to make sure that we had equal representation on that board. Here
again, it is a board whose decisions affect greatly the rural areas of this
Province of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians because it goes much further than a
fish plant or a company decision. You are talking about thousands of
Newfoundlanders who are employed in the fishing industry. Although most of it is
seasonal, it is very important work. It allows most people to be able live in
their communities and be able to provide for their families.
I ask the minister if he would respond to those three or four issues. I will
included (inaudible).
CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.
MR. LUSH: (Inaudible) the hon. member. I wonder if hon. members would
concur?
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. LUSH: Yes, will we do it after?
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. LUSH: Yes, that is what I think. Before we close.
AN HON. MEMBER: What time?
MR. LUSH: (Inaudible) is working our something here for the hon. members.
MR. SULLIVAN: I do not have a problem with it.
MR. LUSH: You do not have a problem with it?
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. LUSH: Yes, just before the House closes. Did you say you have to go?
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. LUSH: Yes, Okay. We just want the minister to table a document.
CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I appreciate leave to table two pieces of information pursuant to
section
49(2) of the Financial Administration Act. I wish to table the attached list of
temporary loans raised under
section 48 of the Act since the last report to the
House; and further, pursuant to
section 55(3) of the Financial Administration
Act, I wish to table the following list of guaranteed loans paid out by the
Province since the last report to the House.
Thank you very much.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for St. John's West.
MS S. OSBORNE: I would just like to make a brief comment. I would like to
welcome back to the Chamber the Minister of Health and Community Services. She
looks fabulous. I understand that she had good news. She is an inspiration to us
all!
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.
MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Chairman, obviously the minister is not going to
answer some of the concerns that I have raised. That is okay. It is not uncommon
to ask questions in this Chamber and not have answers, but I can tell you those
are very serious concerns.
I am just going to chat a few minutes about the other lumber company. I
talked about -
MR. REID: On a point of order, Mr. Chair.
CHAIR: On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Fisheries and
Aquaculture.
MR. REID: With regard to the board that you are talking about, it was not
fully set up before I arrived in that job but apparently the intent of the board
was not to have individuals who were directly involved in the industry so that
it would be an impartial board. For that reason we welcomed it as well, because
we did not want to have an individual from Nova Scotia on that board who is
directly involved in the fishery who would have his own self-interest. It was
supposed to be an independent board, independent of the industry.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.
MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Chairman, I can understand that, but I say to the
minister, I thought that we would have a representative from the Province. I am
not saying we should have a representative from the industry. In fact, I agree
with you, that sometimes people are self-serving, that is human nature. My
problem is, I say to the minister, that we don't have any representation from
the Province, and I think we should. I do not have to get into a litany of what
the fishing industry means to this Province, the minister knows it very well. I
stood up and put forward the industry as I see it here many times and I am not
going to get into that again today because we know what the fishing industry is
worth. We know what it means. I do not think there are any of us here who would
want to see something done that would hurt people, hurt the industry, or hurt a
company.
I say to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, I agree that your
department is an important department but I think we have to be more proactive
and we have to make sure that we have representation on some of those boards. I
am not suggesting somebody from the fishing industry, but I am suggesting
somebody from the Province.
AN HON. MEMBER: Why not?
MR. FITZGERALD: Well if it has to be somebody from the fishing industry,
I have no problem with that either. I would rather see somebody from the
industry there than not have somebody from the Province there, have nobody
there. Sometimes, as the minister knows, people's attitudes are self-serving
and whether that would be a problem or not with other fishing industries - if we
could find somebody that everybody agreed with, fair enough. There are lots of
capable people in this Province who are willing, I am sure, and very capable of
expressing -
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) fine fellow.
MR. FITZGERALD: Absolutely, I say to the minister, and I can name another
dozen fine fellows.
AN HON. MEMBER: I wouldn't say that many.
MR. FITZGERALD: I would, that the minister would agree with, I am sure.
Mr. Chairman, I talked about the lumber companies and I am going to go on a
little bit in that vein until my time is up. I am going to refer to Bloomfield
Lumber again. Here is a little lumber company which was started back long before
I was even born, by a gentleman by the name of George Sexton. I have always said
that George Sexton has probably put more food on people's tables in Bonavista
Bay than any other person there.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. FITZGERALD: The present George Sexton. I know the man very well. I
can remember stories about him and how he had the first old truck. He would go
around working with the Department of Highways. I don't know what it was
called then, I guess it was roads or something. He was going around filling
potholes. Then he started going in the woods with his horses and started
employing people. He put in his own woods roads. He had his own sawmill. Then he
progressed from the sawmill to have a planer. Now he has progressed - and his
son has pretty well taken it over now, Kevin Sexton. Good business people. They
employed a lot of people. Salt of the earth, I call them, salt of the earth
people.
If you go out in Bloomfield now - well it is Bloomfield Lumber. They live in
Bloomfield. Just across the bridge is their sawmill, I say to the ministers
opposite. You should see the set up that they have out there now. He is a
Newfoundlander employing local Newfoundlanders, and that is the reason why I
feel a little bit peeved and I feel a little bit disappointed that your
government, I say to the minister opposite, has allowed this particular
agreement to expire without making the representation that is needed. That is
what bothers me.
If you go out there you see the lights on nighttime, you see the smoke coming
out of the kiln and you see the barges coming in the bay, bringing lumber in
from other places, employing truckers, employing people to unload it, employing
people in addition to the eighty or ninety people who are employed year round in
that sawmill. And we should take that kind of thing for granted?
AN HON. MEMBER: What would you do?
MR. FITZGERALD: I will tell you what I would do, Sir. I would make sure
that if I was the Premier of this Province that I would be there front and
centre to make sure that our interests were looked after. That is what Premier
Hamm did. Is there anything wrong with that?
MR. EFFORD: Did he (inaudible) what he wanted?
MR. FITZGERALD: Well, we do not know. It does not expire until March 31.
The problem is, what help did he get? What help has he gotten from here? We
heard the minister say today that he wrote a letter.
AN HON. MEMBER: He said more than that.
MR. FITZGERALD: He wrote a letter. That is all I heard. Okay, maybe he
attended a meeting, but we need representation, I say to the Minister of
Justice. We need representation there, and if there is a meeting that is going
to concern rural Newfoundlanders and Labradorians - well, I don't care if they
are from rural Newfoundland or urban Newfoundland. They are all Newfoundlanders
and Labradorians, they are all this Province, they are all taxpayers. It is
people that employ you and I. If we have a meeting on the go, or if there is an
agreement that is about to expire, and if it is helpful and convenient the way
that it is, then we should make every effort to protect the industries that
employ Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.
There is a great future in the lumber industry of this Province, a great
future. This same company, Bloomfield Lumber, I say to the minister, have
recently gone to I believe it is Roddickton and opened up another sawmill on the
Northern Peninsula that closed down, could not function. All of a sudden new
management, new ideas, new business sense moved in and have gone up on the
Northern Peninsula and opened up a sawmill that has been closed for years,
employing Newfoundlanders in rural communities again.
I do not know what is going to happen if the United States, if good old
America, Uncle Sam, decides that they are going to slap tariffs and duties on
our lumber imports going into the United States. I do not know what is going to
happen, and I fear that, because while we go to work and we see the sawmills and
we hear the mills humming, there has to be somebody out there to buy it. There
has to be a market.
If we do not reach out and make sure that we protect the markets that we
have, then there is no point in us going out and shouting and standing here on
our feet and saying how happy we are because we created another half-a-dozen
jobs. How about the fifty or sixty or the eighty, I say to the minister, that we
are going to lose in the meantime?
AN HON. MEMBER: French people (inaudible). You know that, don't you?
MR. FITZGERALD: I do not have anything against the French, I say to the
minister. I do not know what the minister has against the French people of this
country, but I have nothing against the French.
I say to the minister. I am also saddened that she has not stood in her place
and told us what she has been hearing from her constituents about their fear of
what is happening to Fishery Products International.
AN HON. MEMBER: You do not have to worry, I will deal with my
constituents; you deal with yours.
MR. FITZGERALD: I can tell you that I will deal with them, and I have
dealt with them, and I have reached out and spoken out. I do not keep my
thoughts in here. I let people know where I stand. I say that the minister has
not done that. I have talked to the people. I have talked to some of the mayors
down there and, I tell you, they are waiting for you. They are waiting for you
to speak out, to speak up and let them know where you stand. Let them know where
you stand.
I say to the minister, she has to let them know where she stands. There are a
lot of people who work in her area, employed by FPI, who have grave concerns.
The minister right here, who is rolling up his shirt sleeves, it is time for you
to roll them up and represent your people. Tell us about Harbour Breton.
MR. LANGDON: A point of order, Madam Chair.
MADAM CHAIR (Ms Hodder): On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of
Municipal and Provincial Affairs.
MR. LANGDON: I do not need the Member for Bonavista South to tell me to
roll up my sleeves. I have already done that. I have talked to the union and I
have talked to the mayor. I am in contact with my community
MADAM CHAIR: There is not point of order.
Continue.
MR. FITZGERALD: Maybe the minister can tell us where he stands on it. It
is not enough to talk; you have to know where you stand in this world. You have
to know where you stand. It is not enough to be on the fence. You have to be on
one side or the other side. You know what happens if you stay on the fence. You
have to represent the people who put you here. You have to dance with the one
that brung you. That is what you have to do.
The people down in Harbour Breton have some great concerns, I say to members
opposite. The people down in Marystown have concerns. The people in Burin have
concerns. In Fortune, in Dildo, people in Port Union and Bonavista, all have
great concerns about what might happen if something happens to Fishery Products
International.
I have, too, myself. The thing that bothers me is, when you hear and you see
outside interests stepping up and saying: we are not happy with the way this
particular company is operating; we are not happy with the management team; we
are not happy with the profits we are making, then why did they put their money
there in the first place? There are lots of places to put money. The Member for
Port de Grave tells everybody he has made all kinds of money. He has lots of
money. I do not know where he made it, but he did not make it by putting it into
companies that were not profitable. That is not the way to make money.
MR. H. HODDER: You made your own companies, didn't you, John?
MR. FITZGERALD: He has also had some investments. I would assume he has.
When the former minister, who should be Premier, when that man makes an
investment, he doesn't go and invests his money in a company that is not
profitable and say: I am going to get in there now and I am going to buy that
company, take it over, put some new people in there to run it, but I will only
own 10 per cent or 15 per cent of it. That is not the way you make money.
MR. EFFORD: The difference between John Efford and John Risley is that
John Risley cares only about (inaudible).
MR. FITZGERALD: That is what I am getting at. You are like the Panasonic
television. You are slightly ahead of my time.
What do they do? They reach out and try to take over the company. They take
over the company and say they are going to make it more profitable. How do you
make a fishing company more profitable? The way you make a fishing company more
profitable is, number one, number two or number three. I see three ways of doing
it.
Number one is, in order to access the product, in order to access the fish,
you are going to pay a lower price to fishermen. Number two is, you are going to
strip wages and benefits away from your employees. I would venture to say that
Fishery Products International and Beothic Fish Processing Ltd. are probably two
- I am not going to say that they are the only two, but they are probably two -
of the fishing company employers in this Province today to pay the higher wages
to their employees. I think they are. I am almost sure of that.
MADAM CHAIR: Order, please!
The hon. member's time is up.
MR. FITZGERALD: So, what do you do? You either strip away the benefits
and the wages by your employees, you lower the cost of what you are going to pay
for fish, or you get rid of the plants that are not making a profit.
MADAM CHAIR: Order, please!
I remind the hon. member that his time is up.
MR. FITZGERALD: By leave?
MADAM CHAIR: Does the hon. member have leave?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.
MADAM CHAIR: By leave.
MR. FITZGERALD: You either do one thing or the other. I see it being done
in three ways.
I say to the senator who just rolled in there, if this was happening with
Beothic Fish down in Bonavista North, I doubt if he would be quiet.
MR. EFFORD: It is up for sale.
MR. FITZGERALD: Beothic Fish is?
MR. EFFORD: Yes, Sir.
MR. FITZGERALD: So, it is up for sale. Fair game, if it is up for sale,
not a problem. It is a privately owned company. It is certainly a reputable
plant. It is certainly a reputable company.
MR. TULK: When did Beothic Fish go up for sale?
MR. EFFORD: Last year.
MR. TULK: Listen, you stop spreading rumors about the best fish plant in
the Province. (Inaudible). Beothic Fish is not for sale.
MR. EFFORD: You stopped telling me what to do six months ago.
MS S. OSBORNE: Good for you, John.
MR. FITZGERALD: Beothic Fish is a great processing company. It is
probably a model, it is probably a flagship, I say to them. When you hear tell
of this group of people going on strike, or this group of people unhappy because
there are a number of jobs being done away with through new technology, Beothic
Fish always seems to be able to come up and provide new opportunities to do new
initiatives, to make new ways of doing things in order to look after their
employees. If you do not have good employees, if you do not have happy
employees, then I do not see how you can have a successful business. Beothic
Fish has been very good at doing that. They have good people there, and they
have had them over the years. I think of people like Harry Harding, I think of
the Way's, and I think of a lot of the people I know who worked in the fish
plant.
MR. EFFORD: I will tell you one thing, if John Risley gets his hands on
FPI, it will have some impact on the (inaudible) fish.
MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, you have that right. It will have an impact on the
whole fishing industry.
MR. TULK: John, let me tell you, I think I made that statement to you
about a year ago.
MR. FITZGERALD: That is what concerns me.
MR. SULLIVAN: That is over now, isn't it?
MR. FITZGERALD: No, it is not over. There was a little deflection thrown
in there, I say to members opposite, to try to deflect attention. I spoke with
some people this morning and that is still a work in progress. All they have to
do, even though they may not have a group of dissident board of directors put in
place for the meeting on May 1, I say to the minister, all they have to do is
serve notice that they are going to do it within 90 days and there has to be
another meeting and they probably will have a new board of directors there at
that time.
What they will do, Mr. Chair, is strip the company apart, they will go out
and we are right back to the old fish merchant scenario again, right back to
where we were back in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s, that kept our forefathers and
our own fathers slaves to the fish merchants. That is what you will go back to,
and that is what is happening.
Mr. Chair, we have some great concerns and the people that I know, Minister,
are looking to you to bring about some of those changes. They are looking to you
to make representation on softwood lumber. They are looking to you, I say,
Minister, to make representation on the EI system to show that those people who
are in need of it are able to access it. The unemployment insurance system was
never meant to create a $30 billion profit where they could out and use it as a
slush fund in order to generate money to get people elected. It was never meant
to go out and take it from the poorest of this Province and this country in
order to go out and put in water and sewer to communities that could afford it;
because in all the things that come down from Ottawa, it shows you how much
attention they pay to this particular Province. You see that in the
infrastructure system, and I could keep going because, as I talk, something else
comes into my head and I can tell you about how unfair that is.
Minister, you have your work cut out for you, and probably some of the first
things you are going to confronted with are some of the things that I just
talked to you about, and you are going to be called to task on it. You are going
to be called to explain. It is not going to be enough to get up and just say,
well, we wrote a letter, or we are going to plan on meeting with them, or we are
looking to talk to the federal minister. They are going to want to know what you
have done. They are going to want to know what you, the Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs, and the Member for Terra Nova, have done in order to
protect their interests.
When you go to a community out in your district, a community that cannot
access provincial-federal infrastructure money because they do not have the
one-third in order to access it, they are going to ask you, Minister. Up until
now you could always slough the blame off and say, I know where you are coming
from, and I have tried and I know it is unfair. Now they are going to look to
you for guidance. They are going to look to you for answers.
Those communities that want to have their streets lights put back on, that
are going to want to go and service their community with water and sewer, that
want to be able to maintain the infrastructure they have in the ground, they are
going to be coming to you, Minister, and they are going to say to you: Minister
Lush, what have you done to make sure that small communities without a tax base
like ours, are included and can access the infrastructure program?
I do not think the infrastructure program was ever put in place to help the
Grand Falls-Windsors and to help the St. John's and the Mount Pearls of the
world. Great, let them access some of the big money there and get on with their
projects, but do you know the reason that we applied for infrastructure money?
Do you know the reason why we asked the federal government to partner with us?
It was asked to be done so we could help rural areas. It was asked to be done so
we could help the small communities.
Only a few years ago, government went out and encouraged people to become
organized and form a local government. They encourage people to go out and say,
look, Mr. Community Leader, why don't you incorporate your community, bring
about some minimum tax, and here are the benefits that we can provide you with.
We are going to provide you with street lighting. We will give you the right to
apply on a 75/25 for fire protection. We are going to give you some payments
from the provincial government that will reflect the number of people living in
your community. We will allow you to access money to pave your local roads. We
will allow you money in order to keep up your waste disposal area. People said:
hey, this is something that we would like to be a part of because we are going
to be living here all our lives. We are raising our family here. Maybe we should
form and incorporate our communities. You had three choices at that time. It
could be a town. It could be a local service district. There was another one.
What was it? It was a community - what was the other one? There was another one.
AN HON. MEMBER: City.
MR. FITZGERALD: No, it was not a city. It was a town council, a local
service district -
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. FITZGERALD: It was a community council. That is exactly what it was.
A local service district, a community council and a town council. A local
improvement district. They have done away with the community council part of it.
Now it is either a town council or a local service district, one or the other.
There is nothing wrong with that. Even with the local service district, for the
most part they do not get into water and sewer and those kind of things. They
see a need and they respond to it. They have input to deal with government in
order to bring about some changes and some positive things for the communities.
Then, at that particular time, whether it was right or wrong - I was not here
to say, but I do know the hurt that has been reflected on communities out there.
The people were encouraged to apply for money. No matter how much money you
applied for all you had to do was be responsible for paying back 20 per cent of
your gross revenue to government. So the big race was on, Madam! You know it
very well, you served your community. The big race was on as to who could get
the most money for water and sewer, roads, street lighting and fire protection,
and the list goes on. It made sense. You only had to pay back 20 per cent of
your money. So no matter what money you had, no matter how much money you got,
you only had to pay back 20 per cent.
Do you want to ask a question? Go ahead.
MR. TULK: How well have FPI done for the Province?
MR. FITZGERALD: How well have they done? I will need some extra time
after I am up. So you give me leave because I want to finish this train of
thought, and then I will talk about that.
Madam Speaker, the race was on to access government funding. Then in comes
the Minister of Industry, Trade and Rural Development's friend and colleague,
and mentor, the former, former, former Premier.
MR. TULK: No, no.
MR. MANNING: Two formers.
MR. FITZGERALD: No, former, former, former Premier. He said: I am going
to change this. This is not right.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. FITZGERALD: I am talking about the chief justice. That is exactly who
I am talking about, who was the former, former, former Premier.
MR. SULLIVAN: That is the fellow who brought in income supplementation,
wasn't it?
MR. FITZGERALD: Brought in income supplementation. I can hear the former
Member for Terra Nova now out in the Holiday Inn talking about what a wonderful
plan it was.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. FITZGERALD: You probably supported it, I say to the Member for Terra
Nova. Don't leave! Listen to me because you are part of this. This is part of
what you are all about. I'm talking to you. You are my member and you are
leaving the House. Sit down and listen to it.
Here is the situation, and you can try to get out of this one all you want
but you did support it -
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) supported what?
MR. FITZGERALD: He supported the Income Supplementation Program. He was a
member of Cabinet, I know he did! I still have petitions here. Just imagine, and
this is when the new Industry, Trade and Rural Development minister, soon to be
senator, was sitting back in my colleagues -
MR. MANNING: The nosebleed section.
MR. FITZGERALD: There you go, it is the nosebleed section. He came in and
he put his hand under his head and he would not even look at him. The only time
he came here was when the cameras were here.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. FITZGERALD: You were not here very often. I do not know how you earn
your money because you had just gotten a slap on the wrist. I say it to the
minister -
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, a likely story.
AN HON. MEMBER: I'm serious.
MR. FITZGERALD: I am serious too.
I say to the minister: How could you go out and support a program like the
Income Supplementation Program?
MR. TULK: (Inaudible).
MR. FITZGERALD: I hope you are making a note of all those questions
because I am going on with them.
Here was a program - sit down and listen, I say to the member. Sit down and
listen while I tell you about what you supported because you obviously have no
feeling for it! Sit down!
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. FITZGERALD: Well, we will take a break until you come back. I am
going to tell you about the Income Supplementation Program. There is a lot of
people over there who supported it. The Minister of Fisheries was not there
then. The minister from Burgeo was not here. The former Premier supported it. A
couple of people over there who sit in Cabinet. Not a lot of the ones who are
there now. The Member for Virginia Waters, nobody ever knew where he was and
they still don't know. He still hides. He has a public meeting every three
months but there is never anything brought back here about the public meetings
and the changes that he wants brought about. Never.
I have to speak for a minute about the Member for Grand Falls-Buchans. Yes, a
lady that I respect over there, but I have to refer to a comment in the paper
today. It reminded me when I seen the former Minister of Finance, and when I see
the present Minister of Mines and Energy walk in, about a poll that he did
during the Hydro debate. Do you remember that unpolluted poll? The Member for
Grand Falls-Buchans referred to a poll today. She said: I have evidence now that
the transfer of jobs from the urban areas to rural areas, people agree with. Do
you know the reason why they agree with it? Because she responded