Second Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVI No.7 -1:30 p.m., Wednesday, December 13,1995 ISSN 0542-5492

Name ASHTON, Steve BARRE'IT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-sixth l.9lature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Comtituency Thompson WellingtOn Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Rob! in-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Tunle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Party N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P;C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

285 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, December 13,1995 The House met at 1: 30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Emergency Health Care Services- Community Hospitals Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Keith Wilding, Sherry Bohonos, Gilles Piechette and others urging the Minister responsible for Health consider making a commitment to the people of Manitoba that emergency health care services in Winnipeg's five community hospitals will remain open seven days a week, 24 hours a day. Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Janice S. Thomson, Rosemary McEvoy and M. Bergman praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba go on record requesting the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to consider maintaining 24-hour acces s to emergency health care at community hospitals, as was promised in the 1995 general election. Ms. MaryAnn Mibychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of D. Brown, I. McKenty, G. Morhun and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba go on record requesting the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) to consider maintaining 24-hour access to emergency health care at community hospitals, as was promised in the 1995 general election. Liquor Store Closure- Winnipegosis Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Tom Bratko, Betti Ann Lucas, Debbie Lucas and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the Manitoba government instruct the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission to reverse the decision to close the Winnipegosis liquor store. Emergency Health Care Services- Concordia Hospital Ms.

Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Catherine Dowling, Norman Dowling, Gord Davis and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba go on record requesting the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to consider maintaining 24-hour access to emergency health care at Concordia Hospital, as was promised in the 1995 general election. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Annie Jantz, Pat Steventon, Gladys Urias and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba go on record requesting the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) to consider maintaining 24-hour access to emergency health care at Concordia Hospital, as was promised in the 1995 general election. Emergency Health Care Services- Community Hospitals Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Inkster, I beg to present the petition of Kris Klymchuk, Bruce Stefansson, Charles H. Cameron and others urging the Minister responsible for Health to consider making a commitment to the people of Manitoba that emergency health care services in Winnipeg's five community hospitals will remain open seven days a week, 24 hours a day. Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of K. Wynnytzka, H. Danowski, Helen LeBlanc and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba go on record requesting the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to consider maintaining 24-hour access to emergency health care at community hospitals, as was promised in the 1995 general election. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Emergency Health Care Services­ Community Hospitals Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk). It

286 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1995 complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election the Premier promised not to cut health care services; and THAT following the election the Minister of Health promised that emergency services would not be reduced at community hospitals in Winnipeg; and THAT the Minister of Health on October 6 announced that emergency services at these hospitals would be cut back immediately; and THAT residents of Winnipeg and surr ounding communities depend on emergency service at these community hospitals.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba go on record requesting the Premier to consider maintaining 24- hour access to emergency health care at community hospitals in Winnipeg as was promised in the 1995 general election. *

(1335) Emergency Health Care Services­ Concordia Hospital Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election the Premier promised not to cut health care services; and THAT following the election the Minister of Health promised that emergency services would not be reduced at community hospitals in Winnipeg; and THAT the Minister of Health on October 6 announced that emergency services at these hospitals would be cut back immediately; and THAT residents of the Concordia Hospital vicinity depend upon emergency service at this hospital.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba go on record requesting the Premier to consider maintaining 24- hour access to emergency health care at Concordia community Hospital as was promised in the 1995 general election. Emergency Health Care Services­ Community Hospitals Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election the Premier promised not to cut health care services; and THAT following the election the Minister of Health promised that emergency services would not be reduced at community hospitals in Winnipeg; and THAT the Minister of Health on October 6 announced that emergency services at these hospitals would be cut back immediately; and THAT residents of Winnipeg and surr ounding communities depend on emergency service at these community hospitals. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba go on record

December 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 287 requesting the Premier to consider maintaining 24- hour access to emergency health care at community hospitals in Winnipeg as was promised in the 1995 general election. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election the Premier promised not to cut health care services; and THAT following the election the Minister of Health promised that emergency services would not be reduced at community hospitals in Winnipeg; and THAT the Minister of Health on October 6 announced that emergency services at these hospitals would be cut back immediately; and THAT residents of Winnipeg and surrounding communities depend on emergency service at these community hospitals.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba go on record requesting the Premier to consider maintaining 24- hour access to emergency health care at community hospitals in Winnipeg as was promised in the 1995 general election. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

That on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election the Premier promised not to cut health care services; and THAT following the election the Minister of Health promised that emergency services would not be reduced at community hospitals in Winnipeg; and THAT the Minister of Health on October 6 announced that emergency services at these hospitals would be cut back immediately; and THAT residents of Winnipeg and surrounding communities depend on emergency service at these community hospitals.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba go on record requesting the Premier to consider maintaining 24- hour access to emergency health care at community hospitals in Winnipeg as was promised in the 1995 general election. Retention ofHogs Single-Desk Selling Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Madam Speaker: Yes. The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the provincial government has made an arbitrary decision to move to a dual marketing system for hogs in Manitoba; and

WHEREAS Manitoba Pork is a democratically elected board, composed of producers who act in the best interests of all producers; and

WHEREAS a majority of hog producers have told the Minister of Agriculture that they support the single desk selling function of Manitoba Pork, the marketing board; and

WHEREAS the government has failed to demonstrate that this decision will benefit either

288 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1995 Manitoba's 2,200 independent producers or processors who have publicly stated support for single-desk selling; and

WHEREAS evidence from the United States indicates that open marketing has a negative effect upon smaller operations, where a majority of family farms have disappeared. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Leg islative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Agriculture reverse his decision and retain single desk selling for hogs in Manitoba under Manitoba Pork. Emergency Health Care Services- Community Hospitals Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli). It complies with the rules and practices of the House.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions dwing the 1995 provincial election the Premier promised not to cut health care services; and THAT following the election the Minister of Health promised that emergency services would not be reduced at community hospitals in Winnipeg; and THAT the Minister of Health on October 6 announced that emergency services at these hospitals would be cut back immediately; and THAT residents of Winnipeg and surrounding communities depend on emergency service at these community hospitals.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba go on record requesting the Premier to consider maintaining 24- hour access to emergency health care at community hospitals in Winnipeg as was promised in the 1995 general election. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

That on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election the Premier promised not to cut health care services; and THAT following the election the Minister of Health promised that emergency services would not be reduced at community hospitals in Winnipeg; and THAT the Minister of Health on October 6 announced that emergency services at these hospitals would be cut back immediately; and THAT residents of Winnipeg and surrounding communities depend on emergency service at these community hospitals.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba go on record requesting the Premier to consider maintaining 24- hour access to emergency health care at community hospitals in Winnipeg as was promised in the 1995 general election. TABLING OF REPORTS Bon. Rosemary V odrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table the report of the Chief Medical Examiner for 1994. Bon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I am tabling three reports: the 1994-1995 Annual Report of Assiniboine Community College; the 1994-95 Annual Report of Keewatin Community College; and the 1994-95 Annual Report of Red River Community College. *

(1340) December 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 289 INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill200-The Health Services Insurance Amendment Act Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski), that leave be given to introduce Bill 200, The Health Services Insurance Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur l'assurance-maladie ), and that the same be now received and read the first time. Motion presented. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, this is a bill in which the provincial Liberal Party has on numerous occasions attempted to pass inside this Legisla ture. Our inten tions are to continue to lobby this government to support Bill 200.

In essence, what it does is it takes the five fundamental principles of the Canada Health Act, and we are saying let us pass it into provincial law so that Manitobans can rest assured that those five very important principles for health care will be maintained well into the future for the province of Manitoba That is something which the provincial Liberal Party stands for and believes has to ultimately be passed by this government if this government is sincere when it talks about health care ref orm. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Motion agreed to. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Faneuil ISG Inc. Agreement Preferred Shares Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Premier. Madam Speaker, during the announcements of the Faneuil deal with the Province of Manitoba and the Manitoba Telephone System, there were some notable details lacking. Following the announcement, we have now received the annual report of the Manitoba Trading Corporation. The Manitoba Trading Corporation reports that part of the deal that was arranged by the government is for $19 million in notes or debt to be transferred from the Manitoba Telephone System to the Manitoba Trading Corporation.

Yet only $16 million in so-called pref erred shares were traded or sent to the Manitoba Trading Corporation. I would like to ask the Premier, why are we $3 million short on this transaction and, secondly, what was the role ofMr. Bessey in all of those transactions? Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I will take that question as notice and attempt to come back with the detail for the member. Role of Michael Bessey Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, that raises the question of whether Mr.

Bessey ever informed the Premier at the press conference he attended about the financial arran gements that were made between the Telephone System, Faneuil ISG corporation and the Manitoba Trading Corporation. The fact that the Premier does not know the answer to that question, the fact that it was not in the press release that was attended by the Premier, raises some serious questions. I would like to ask the Premier, what was the role of Mr. Bessey to negotiate and be the initiating department, according to the Order- in-Council signed by Stef anson and Filmon, on this arrangement?

Also, he is the vice-chair of the Manitoba Trading Corporation and he is now employed by principals of Faneuil ISG, by one of the principals in Stanton Europa. What was the role of Mr. Bessey in financing a deal, initiating a deal in terms of the Province of Manitoba and the $3 million? Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, in response to the

preamble, the member is asking about something, the detail of which obviously I would have had at my disposal some 15 or 16 months ago when the deal was announced. I believe, and I will verify it, that the issue is the present value of the debt instruments that are being transferred because the debt instruments are being taken over time

whereas the shares were given up front on a present-value basis. I will have that

290 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1995 all clarified for him so he understands the issue, and I am sure that he will be satisfied with the information. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, Mr. Bessey negotiates this deal and initiates it for the Industry, Trade and Tourism department. He finances it through the Manitoba Trading Corporation. He is now receiving a tuition fee and a book advance from a company that involves one ofthe principals of the original deal that was negotiated by Mr. Bessey. The Premier is saying that he will have an internal investigation of the Clerk of Cabinet .

Given that these arran gements were across many government departments, Madam Speaker, would it not make more sense for the people of Manitoba and for the ethics of the decisions that were made to have an independent investigation by an individual qualified on ethics rather than having an internal investigation into these questions that we have been raising? Mr.

Filmon: Madam Speaker, with respect to all of the allegations that the member has made consistently for three days now in Question Period, with respect to all of the allegations that have been made by the Winnipeg Free Press in its portrayal of the situation, I have said that I requested the Clerk of the Executive Council go to the Department of Justice and to the Legislative Counsel and request that a review be made. I did not say that the Clerk would be in any way involved in the review. The Department of Justice is taking on the responsibility.

I further suggested that it would be my strong desire to have it done by an outside counsel, and I can confirm that indeed that is what Justice has done. So when that review is done, I will make it public so that the member's allegations can all be responded to. *

(1345) Faneuil ISG Inc. Agreement Preferred Shares Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, Volume 1 of Public Accounts for 1994-95 confirms that there was a $3-million subsidy in effect that is being given by Manitoba Trading Corporation and the Manitoba government to this deal. I refer the Premier to Volume 1, 1994, pages 3-3 and 3-11. Madam Speaker, as part of the deal to develop the Faneuil ISG corporation, Manitoba Trading Corporation received $16 million in convertible preferred shares, the par value of $16 million.

Can the Premier tell the House what was the purpose of the $16-million convertible preferred share purchase on the part of MTC? What was the purpose of that $16 million? Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I want to correct the position that has been put forward and alleged by the member opposite. As I recall, and I said I will get the complete details, the Faneuil corporation does not get the benefit of the transfer of debt instruments immediately.

They do not get 19,000 at once, they get it spread over time, and so the repayment is based on-the asset that they have lodged in its place is the present value of what they will be receiving. But I will confirm that detail because I cannot operate from memory 15 months later. I will take that as notice, and when I have the information I will return here with it for the benefit of the member opposite. Mr.

Sale: Madam Speaker, will the Premier acknowledge that what really happened here was that the Manitoba Trading Corporation gave to Faneuil ISG a long-term licence to use Manitoba Telephone System's data, one of the telecorporation's most valuable assets, for $16 million in convertible preferred shares which have no market value and virtually no assets behind them? It was the data that was transferred, was it not, Mr. Premier? Mr. Filmon: What did happen was that we had a corporation come to Manitoba, make an investment that will see a thousand jobs created. They already have created several hundred.

They are ahead of their target. Mr. Sale: Will the Premier tell the House what was done to obtain a fair and independent valuation of the

December 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 291 worth of the MTS database which was transferred to the Manitoba Trading Corporation for a nominal fee of either a dollar or $1 O-we cannot fmd the transaction­ and was then transferred from MTC to the Faneuil ISG corporation for the convertible preferred shares? What was done to obtain an independent and fair valuation of this asset which was transferred? Mr.

Filmon: I can tell the member opposite that we had more lawyers and more individuals from an economic standpoint, from a valuation standpoint with respect-[interjection] There are investments being made by Vision Capital who did their own due diligence, massive investment-! believe something like $1 1 million-by BCE enterprises. The largest telecommunications corporation in Canada is the major investor in this corporation. There were something like 90 separate agreements that had to be entered into.

The due diligence on this was greater than was done for any other transaction that has ever been conducted in the province of Manitoba. * (135 0) Health Care System Emergency Services Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Yesterday the Minister of Health tried to undo some of the damage that he has created in the health care field with his announcements about the emergency hospitals.

We were very surprised to hear the comments of the Deputy Minister of Health who said yesterday that two of the hospitals, the Misericordia and one other north end hospital, probably the Seven Oaks Hospital, would no longer be acute care facilities. Can the minister today confirm that in fact is government policy, or hopefully deny that it is government policy, and will he table the information that has led to this conclusion that has been made by his Deputy Minister of Health? Bon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker , I will confirm that in response to the emergency services team's recommendations, we announced that in future there would be emergency services delivered at Children's Hospital, two tertiary centres and three community hospitals. That leaves two community hospitals without emergency departments in the future, and I will confirm that work is being undertaken to determine the appropriate use to be made of the two hospitals that will not have full emergency departments. Mr. Chomiak: Can the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) or the Minister of Health, who have no mandate from the population of Manitoba to close hospitals, to shut down acute care facilities, who by the closure of these acute care hospitals will rip the heart out of those communities, be it Misericordia or be it Seven Oaks and areas that serve tens of thousands of people, can they pledge today that prior to making the final decision, they will at least go into the community and listen to what people in the community have to say and present their data, and allow the public to have a say on their hospitals prior to the closures? Mr.

McCrae: Madam Speaker, by his comments the honourable member seems to be suggesting that we do not listen. Madam Speaker, the actions taken in yesterday's announcement and other actions taken by this government indicate precisely the opposite. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Speaker, can the Minister of Health explain why they are going to close emergency hospitals and change acute care facilities in the north end of Winnipeg when at Seven Oaks Hospital, for example, it has a higher emergency room ratio, by the government stats, than some of the hospitals that are being kept open and where, by government stats, we know that it has the largest family practice, 55 family practice physicians at Seven Oaks Hospital, and where-I will table a letter from the psychiatrists saying they serve 3,000 people in regard to their psychiatric outpatient treatment program.

Why are they choosing to close those north end facilities? Mr. McCrae: I hope the honourable member will discontinue his approach, Madam Speaker, of being

292 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1995 very, very selective in his criticism and making policy suggestions. Is he rejecting, for example, or will he be rejecting the advice given by our Urban Health Planning team members who are there to provide advice on the various clinical disciplines in our hospitals? Is he choosing today to reject outright before he even knows what it is, the advice that we are going to be getting? Misericordia General Hospital Emergency Services Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, yesterday our community hospital, the Misericordia, was given a half hour's notice of a press conference which would effectively end its role as a general hospital. As late as December 8, the hospital board had no idea that this was the government's intention, and I think that is a shameful and cynical way to treat that hospital. The minister has had since August a detailed report of Dr.

Reda which documented the increased use of the Misericordia emergency services, which documented the acute care of the many patients who present there for admission and which documented that this is adjacent to one of Manitoba's poorest communities. Let me tell you what that means, Madam Speaker. It means no phones, it means no telephones, and it means none of the family supports that many of us take for granted. I want to ask the minister why he has chosen to cut what is literally one of the few life lines for this community. * (135 5) Bon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the honourable member clearly has neglected to remember the level of consultation that has indeed taken place with the people involved with the Misericordia General Hospital. The honourable member fails to take into account the personal interest that I have taken in Misericordia General Hospital, the work that we have done with the Misericordia General Hospital to establish Winnipeg and Misericordia Hospital as the centre for breast screening in this region of Manitoba, the whole issue of the ophthalmology centre of excellence located at Misericordia Hospital.

The honourable member ignores that and suggests that, I guess, all of those things were all done without any consultation too. The honourable member is just plain wrong about this, Madam Speaker. Our consultations have been extremely extensive. Ms. Friesen: Would the minister acknowledge that Dr. Reda's report on the curre nt use of the Misericordia emergency services has never been seen by his integrated Emergency Services Task Force and that the minister has neither medical nor community consensus on the closing of this emergency ward? Mr.

McCrae: No, I cannot accept what the honourable member is saying, Madam Speaker. We have worked very diligently with health care providers and consumers in coming to the conclusions that have been arrived at and, indeed, this is a recommendation made by the emergency services team which is part of a larger organization which is headed up by Dr. Brock Wright, which is the Urban Health Planning team groups that are looking at all of the different disciplines. So I just cannot accept what the honourable member is saying. We have been extremely careful in arriving at the decisions we announced yesterday. Ms.

Friesen: Madam Speaker, could the minister table for us the cost of sending the 25,000 emergency care patients at the Misericordia to the higher-cost teaching hospitals? Will he table that information? Will he call a community meeting and will he give the community a voice in its future? Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, the honourable member should be reminded, too, that at no point in the process has cost been the bottom line. Madam Speaker, the bottom line is the most appropriate care to provide for people when they find

December 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 293 themselves in serious life-threatening emergent situations, when they find themselves in urgent medical situations and, indeed, when they are involved in nonurgent situations. The honourable members opposite are being foolish if they suggest that we have been using emergency rooms appropriately in the past. It is appropriate that we look at the proper use to be made of the various types of emergency ser vices.

We want to encourage ambulance personnel who come across a life-threatening situation to take people, pref erab ly, to the trauma centres when the services of perhaps neurosurgery are required, because that is where neurosurgery happens, Madam Speaker, is at the tertiary centre s. We want people to understand that Health Links is there, for example, which is another service provided by Misericordia General Hospital which will allow people to speak directly to a nurse on the other end of a telephone and to advise- An Honourable Member: It is a phone serv ice. Mr.

McCrae: The honourable member stre sses, this is a phone service, Madam Speaker. Is she or is she not interested in public education when it comes to health issues? Autopac Rate Increase Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier. It is regarding a topic, if you like, the politics of Autopac and the setting of the rates. Prior to the last provincial election, there was a zero percent increase applied from MPIC to the Public Utilities Board. Now there is a 6.1 percent increa se. This is nothing new.

In fact, it happened when the New Demo crats were in government, when the then­ Leader of the official opposition posed a question about the politics. My question to the Premier, to use his words of Friday, the 12th ofFebruary, 1988, posing the question when he was in opposition, today the Premier: "Is the Minister now going to admit that there was political manipulation involved on the part of his government in setting the Autopac rates?" *

(1400) Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, one of the things that I know is helpful when you quote history is if you learn from it. I would say to the member that the very big difference that occurs today versus what was there in February of 1988 is that we have turned over the rate setting and approval process to the Public Utilities Board. In the days in which I was asking that question, they were able to be manipulated by virtue of government fiat because it was the cabinet that set the rates each and every year.

In this case, since 1989, all of the rates have been set by the Public Utilities Board, and so all that Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation is able to do is apply for an increase and then the Public Utilities Board does its own independent analysis and in some cases, approves, and in other cases, modifies, and in other cases, rej ects the presentation of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. All he need do is look at the decision of the Public Utilities Board with respect to the application on behalf of the motorcycle drivers just a year or so ago.

So they are totally independent of government and they set the rates independent of government and of the MPIC. They have, in fact, changed the rates. The application that is in right now is for 6 percent. It may well not be approved by the Public Utilities Board. That is the basis on which I can assure him that no political manipulation has taken place under this administration in the setting of the rate s. Mr.

Lamoureux: Then maybe the Premier can tell us why, going into an election, there was no request for any increase from this government to the PUB when this gove rnment in fact had a member, a Conse rvative MLA, sitting on the MPIC board. Why was there not any increase requested from PUB going into an election?

294 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1995 Mr. Filmon: The board of MPIC, based on the projections that are provided for by the administration ofMPIC, puts forward a request for an increase that is independently assessed by the Public Utilities Board. They put it out to their own independent economic and actuarial assessment. They have amended it on a number of occasions and, in fact, have rejected the proposal.

So he would have to ask the Public Utilities Board then, why they have approved or not approved particular rate increases or why they have set rate increases that have been inconsistent with the proposals of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. That is not a matt er that is in any way decided upon or influenced by government. Mr.

Lamoureux: Why did this government, through MPIC, not apply for a rate increase in the year leading into an election when the Crown Corporations Council told this government and MPIC that it needs to build up a stabilization fund in which 2 percent of the increase this year could have been saved last year? Mr. Filmon: The point is that in previous years they have made profits. This year they have a $38-million loss. That is the difference between what they have put in for an increase. You do not put in for an increase after you have had consistently high-profit years.

That would be very difficult to justify, so the corporation put in for an increase consistent with the information it had available to it. This year they had increased vehicle damage claims of some $29 million. Manitoba Telephone System Privatization Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, there have been a number of questions raised in this House about deals involving MTS, the sale of the coaxial cable. Serious questions have been raised about the MTS Faneuil deal.

Now, after saying nothing in the election, after in July saying that MTS would remain a Crown corporation despite reorganization, after denying repeatedly in committee that MTS is being considered for privatization, under questioning from the opposition on Friday we learned from the Premier (Mr. Filmon) that in fact the government is now looking at the biggest deal of all, the sale of some or all ofMTS.

I would like to ask the Premier some questions in regard to the news release that was put out after we raised this matter in the House on Friday in which it was indicated that tax regulatory, legal and financial advisers have been engaged to examine the possible privatization ofMTS. I would like to ask the Premier who these advisers are, what the cost is of the contracts and when they will be reporting to government. Bon.

Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the administration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): Madam Speaker, I think the member has been very clearly told that we are in the process of evaluating MTS with $800 million of debt and how we can refinance MTS for the future in terms of making it a competitive telephone company in the Canadian structure." We have, as the member mentioned, given indication that there will be tax regulatory, legal and financial advisers. They are Richardson, Wood Gundy, and RBC Dominion Securities. Mr.

Ashton: We have already heard reference to one former chief official of this government; I am just wondering if another former chief associate employee of this government, one Barb Biggar, has been engaged in any way with contracts either related to privatization or any other matter related to MTS. Mr. Findlay: Madam Speaker, it is my understanding that MTS is engaged in a contract to do communications work for them. Mr.

Ashton: Madam Speaker, I am wondering if the Premier can then indicate to Manitobans, given some of the serious questions that have been raised about former associate Mike Bessey, the clear hiring now of, some would say, the communications chief, chief communicator for this government, whether indeed anyone in this province can trust this government related to dealing with MTS when they have already had two bad deals, when we are now seeing clear politics being imposed in terms of MTS and the

December 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 295 ideological agenda of this government, which is to privatize MTS. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the conflict-of-interest rules that apply to senior officers of government and to each one of us in this Chamber clearly say that people are barred from taking employment with a corporation that they have worked with directly, as part of their responsibility, for one year. The assignment that he is referring to is well beyond the one-year limit and does not apply.

If he is suggesting that a person should be barred from doing work forever, for life, that is not true. He knows full well that the Clerk of the Executive Council for Howard Pawley received a contract the day he left the Clerk of the Executive Council position with the government of the province of Manitoba, a contract that he had designed and in fact went on to fulfill. So he ought not to be so pious and not to make those kinds of indiscriminate accusations. Faneuil ISG Inc. Agreement Preferred Shares Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): While I am on my feet, I have been given some information with respect to the questions of both the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) and the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale). Madam Speaker, indeed, as I had thought I recalled, the difference between the two figures that are put forward is that the $16 million figure is the net present value of the loan capital that is being paid out over five years, $6 million in year one, $5 million in year two, $4 million in year three, $3 million in year four and $1 million in year five. It is a net present value of $1 6 million.

The corporation Faneuil, of course, pays interest on that $16 million and has already made its first annual instalment of interest on that to the government, as is part of the agreement. * (1 410) Hog Industry Marketing System Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, it is hard for anyone to understand why the minister is moving towards dual marketing of hogs when all indications are that it will be the vertical integrators who will have more benefit from this than the independent producers.

One vertical integrator, Elite Swine, has not been following the rules and not been paying the required levy, so in fact has an unfair advantage right now. I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture why he is not directing his department to do their job in collecting the over thousands of dollars that are overdue in levies before he starts to design a new varied levy rate for producers. Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, what the member refers to, of course, is part of the concerns that this government has had, generally speaking, in the hog industry.

Those hogs, regrettably, are not being processed in the province of Manitoba, have for the last year left in their thousands every week to places other than Manitoba, along with the jobs, I might add. The specific issue that she raises is being addressed. There has been contact between Manitoba Pork and the firm in question. The Manitoba Marketing Council, which supervises all marketing boards, has been asked to look into the matter. Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, I hope to see those levies collected soon.

Can the minister explain to independent producers why he would take the advice of one Gerry Moore, co­ author of this report that he so often refers to, when Mr. Moore's business has shares in Interlake Weanlings, which is tied to Puratone which is one of the vertical integrators that has been pushing for dual marketing and stands to gain the most from this move? How can he accept this advice?

296 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, I995 Mr. Enos: Madam Speaker, I and all my colleagues have heard this member for Swan River persistently challenge me that I am supposed to take advice from hog producers. Now she fmds out that one of the advisers has in fact an interest and understanding of hogs, and I am not to take advice from him. Ms.

Wowchuk: Can the minister explain then why his decision just happens to benefit people like Cubby Barrett, who is building three new hog barns but just happens to be on the board of the Manitoba PC fund and who just happened to give $I ,000 to the minister's campaign in the last .. .. Madam Speaker, is this just a coincidence, or are these the people that the minister is trying to help out with this decision? Mr. Enos: Madam Speaker, how long would it take to ask all Tories to stop producing hogs?

I do not know whether they will accept that advice from me, but if that makes her feel any happier, I will undertake that assignment from her. I mean, please- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Enos: Madam Speaker, I apologize. This is a serious issue. The issue is regrettably- Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am experiencing great difficulty hearing the honourable minister's response. The honourable Minister of Agriculture, to complete his response. Mr. Enos: Madam Speaker, there is little to be gained by trying to be divisive in this question of pork production.

It is common knowledge that we have three types of pork producers in the province. Thirty-seven percent of Manitoba pork is produced by one group, the Hutterian Brethren on their large colonies, in their large factory barns. Another 30 percent roughly is produced by the I ,800, I ,900 independent, modest and small­ sized producers. Another 30 percent or 33 percent is produced by what you refer to as the integrators, by what in fact are independently owned farms in the Elite Swine group, and the one more integrated operation that we have is the Puratone group.

So we have three classes of producers, if you like, in the province of Manitoba that constitute and produce the 2.5 million hogs that are currently being produced. Surely she is not suggesting that the Minister of Agriculture of this governm ent should now determine who can and who cannot produce hogs in this province. Department of Highways and Transportation Layoffs Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Madam Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Highways (Mr. Findlay).

Last fall, this minister announced that he was laying off I40 Engineering Aide 2s for the first time in Manitoba history, as a one-time-only temporary layoff because he claimed that the road construction projects had been finished early. Is the minister willing to allow these aides to use up their overtime, rather than big payouts of tax dollars and layoffs? Bon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Trans portation): I think the member is aware that roughly I 50 individuals were identified as not having sufficient work through January, February and March to warrant keeping them on the payroll.

Of the I 50, I5 employees accepted permanent layoff and I6 of those employees are being retained for the winter roads work. That leaves II9 who have received the layoff, and in direct response to the member's question, about half of the savings will be going to the employees in terms of using their banked time, so that reduces the impact on them, so their banked time will be used to reduce the impact during the three-month layoff period and they will be recalled on April I. Mr.

Jennissen: Madam Speaker, my supplementary question: In order to keep these long-serving qualified crews, most of whom have been working for the province in their local communities for well over a decade, will the minister assure the House and rural

December 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 297 Manitobans that these positions will not be turned into seasonal positions? Mr. Findlay: Madam Speaker, the member must realize we all have a limited budget. We have to live within it. My commitment to Manitobans, I will maximize the amount of that budget that I can spend on road capital building, rebuilding, bridge building and maintenance of the roads, and the kinds of decisions that are needed to achieve that will be an ongoing process of the Department of Highways. Highway Construction Projects Delays Mr.

Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, my final supplementary question to the same minister: Can the minister explain why many construction projects such as the main street in Steinbach, PR 303 east of Steinbach and Highway 16 east of Shoal Lake were postponed until next spring when the minister claimed the layoffs were occurring because all work had been completed? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, it is a very basic situation: a very good summer, a lot of projects moved along very, very quickly.

There was not the degree of holdover predicted for the end of the season that one might expect. We have a budget of $103 million for capital expenditures and we are right at that. We could not spend $110 million or $115 million because we were budgeted for $103 million and we live within our budget. So, in a situation where you get close to the end of the year, you have to scale down the jobs in terms of their completion in order to live within your budget. It is a simple, basic fact. Education System School Bus Maintenance Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St.

James): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education. Over the last four years this government has extended the replacement cycle of school buses from 12 to 15.5 years. This has resulted in increased maintenance cost of this elderly fleet to be paid for by local municipal governments. In rural areas, increases average between 20 percent and 25 percent, and in one urban division, over 40 percent.

My question to the minister: Will the minister explain to this House and to the people of Manitoba how her government could extend the use of school buses to transport our children to 15 and a half years when the policy for replacement of provincial government vehicles, cabinet minister vehicles, is between four and five years? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I cannot speak for Government Services. I can speak for Education, and I would indicate that, first of all, you are looking at a specific type of vehicle when you look at a school bus.

A school bus is manufactured in a specific way to the extent that it is identified as such in The Highway Traffic Act as the only kind of vehicle that is deemed safe enough to transport students. It is the only vehicle that is one that is approved for use for students for transportation in the school system. The buses that are being driven are all subject to inspection. No bus is allowed to be on the road if it is not road worthy, if it is not safe. They have . safety inspections and­ [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order, please. *

(1420) Ms. Mihychuk: My final question to the Minister of Education: Will the minister tell this House what percentage of the existing school bus fleet in this province exceeds 12 years and what research was used to justify these extensions? Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, I do not have the percentage here, but I will get it for the member and provide that percentage to her.

I indicate to the member that consultations on school transportation vehicles for students are the subject of a wide variety of experts, of educators, of people who are vitally concerned with the safety of students and the effective transportation of students. As well, Madam Speaker, there are many divisions that choose not to

298 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1995 own bus vehi cles them selves but contract out that ser vice. But I assure the member these decisions are not taken at whim. They are well researched by people expert in the field. Madam Speaker: Time fo r Oral Questions has expired. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the loge to my right where we have with us this afternoon Mr. Clayton Manness, the fo rmer member fo r Morris. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE Emergency Health Care Services­ Community Hospitals Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I move that under Rule 27, the ordinary business of the House be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely, the threat to the health care system posed by the government plans to limit health care services in the city of Winnipeg community hospitals, specifically regarding the closure of Misericordia and Seven Oaks General Hospitals. Madam Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable member fo r Kildonan, seconded by the honourable member fo r Wolseley (Ms.

Friesen), that under Rule 27, the ordinary business of the House be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely, the threat to the health care system posed by the government's plans to limit health care services in the city of Winnipeg community hospitals, specifically regarding the closure of Misericordia and Seven Oaks General Hospitals. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Speaker, perhaps no more important issue is bef ore this Chamber and before the public of Manitoba today than the mishandling of the health care system, the mishandling of the emergency care system and the mishandling of health care that has been perpetrated on the city of Winnipeg and the prov ince of Manitoba by this Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) and by the gov ernment.

Yesterday the Minister of Health and his deputy minister called a press conference to try to deal with the damage as a result of the community hospital emergency room situation, and at that time the Deputy Minister of Health, and today the minister, confirmed that at least two hospitals in the city of Winnipeg are no longer going to be acute care facilities and their emergency wards will not be reopened.

Madam Speaker, this decision affects, in the situation of Seven Oaks, over 50,000 people in the vicinity of Seven Oaks Hospital and a similar group of people in the Misericordia region, all of whom have not been consulted and have had no opportunity to deal with this significant change .

We have public hearings when we construct environmental sites, we have public hearings when we construct roads, but something as integral to the welf are of Manitobans, namely their hospitals, their very fo undation, the very nature of their hospitals, and the government, by executive decree, by the minister's closed little executive body, his troika of committee members, have made decisions to close hospitals. The public has had no opportunity to discuss this issue .

Madam Speaker, this minister and the deputy minister indicated this decision was imminent, that this decis ion would take place in January prior to having any opportunity to deal with this change. The decision has virtually been reached. The government is implem enting it; they will attempt to do it outs ide of the session when they can get less public scrutiny on their policies. They are attempting to change the nature of health care in this city and the province of Manitoba. What is more important, what is more fundamental than the emergency room of a hospital?

What other resources are available than the emergency room of a hospital? What other resources are available, in a government that has cut back community services, than

December 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 299 the very hospitals of Misericordia and Seven Oaks Hospital? Madam Speaker, the decision is imminent, the decision is being made, meetings are going on to direct people as we speak, and we require an opportunity to discuss this. It might be argued that we are in the throne speech debate and there may be an opportunity­ the throne speech which made virtually no mention of this issue.

Imagine, a throne speech came down, made no mention of this issue of a fundamental change in our health care system, and it is not just the hospitals, but it is other health care issues. Madam Speaker, we would even be out of order because we would not even deal, because the matter was not even mentioned in the throne speech debate. I would say shame on the government for not mentioning it in the throne speech debate, shame on the government for implementing this policy. We require an opportunity in this Chamber to discuss this issue. We require an opportunity to voice the opinion .

We require an opportunity to provide the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae ) and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) with an opportunity to listen to what the public have had to say in this regard . We presented petitions; they did not listen. Sixty­ thousand names were presente d; they did not listen. Now we require an opportunity of consultation with the communities, and only through this Chamber and only by having an opportunity to discuss this matter in this Chamber will we be able to do so. Madam Speaker, I cite the fact that there was a previous precedent.

The Liberal Party brought in an emergency debate prior in the prev ious session dealing with the closure of the emergency wards, and the matter was allowed to proceed. This is just as urgent, that is, the closing of the hospitals, the continuing closing of the emergency war ds. The opportunity is limited in throne speech debate. Many members had already used up their opportunity to speak before the government revealed its ill-founded policy. I urge you to consider this of urgent importance and to consider the fact that there are no other opportunities for Manitobans since this House will be adjourning on Friday.

Many members have had an opportunity already to speak on the Throne Speech Debate, and in fact the matter was not even mentioned in the Throne Speech Debate, which makes it difficult to speak about. I urge you to allow us to have an emergency debate on this very crucial matter. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind all honourable members that this indeed is a very important issue. I would request that those members who are carr ying on private conversations to please do so in the loge or outside the Chamber. Hon.

Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, you are quite correct, matters of urgent public importance ought not to be raised on a frivolous basis, but ought to be a very serious matter. But if this motion were rai sed in a courtroom, I am sure any judge would stand up and say that the honourab le member's intentions here are both frivolous and vexatious. On two counts alone, his motion should be out of order. Firstly, the question of urgency.

Ifhe had raised this matter yesterday, if he had raised it last week, if he had raised it two months ago, it would have been a lot more urgent than it is today because yesterday the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) announced that four of the five currently closed emergency wards are now going to be open tomorro w. So the question of urgency and having a debate about it today will change very little, if anything, because four of those five emergency wards will open tomorr ow.

His argument with respect to urgency might have been made a lot more serious yesterday or the day before than it is today because of that announcement by the Minister of Health. So I think, on that ground alone, it should be ruled out of order because he is simply being frivolous and trying to play politics with this particular issue. The second, Madam Speaker, is the question of opportunity. Certainly, they have had an opportunity since last Wednesday to deal with this entire issue, to

300 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1995 talk about it. We have, in fact, talked about it in Question Period virtually every day and many members have raised the issue during their debate on the Speech from the Throne. We also have further opportunity. We have this afternoon until 6 p.m. to talk about this particular issue. Every member on the other side can raise that in his or her debate, and if they will, they can curtail their debates efficiently so that more members can speak with respect to this issue. Certainly, we have tomorrow until 6 p.m. or until 5:30 p.m. tomorrow, the time of the vote, in order to discuss the very same issue, and we have it again on Friday. *

(1430) So, Madam Speaker, there is ample opportunity for members opposite to raise this issue in the debate on the Speech from the Throne. You need not have any emergency debate on this issue because, quite frankly, it is not urgent and there is a lot of opportunity. I think by bringing this forward he is simply being frivolous. Thank you. Madam Speaker: I want to thank all honourable members for their advice as to whether the motion proposed by the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) should be debated today. The honourable member did provide the notice required under our subrule 27.(1).

According to our Rule 27 and Beauchesne Citations 389 and 390, the two tests for a matter of urgent public importance to proceed are (1) is the subject matter so pressing that the ordinary opportunities for debate will not allow it to be brought out early enough, and (2) has it been shown that the public interest will suffer if the matter is not given immediate attention. While the honourable member for Kildonan has spoken to the subamendment to the throne speech motion, he could indeed speak to the amendment and the main motion for an address in reply to the Speech from the Throne.

In my opinion, the scope of that debate is broad enough to allow for the issue of the health care system to be addressed. So, indeed, there are other opportunities for the debate to occ ur. In regard to the second test, while health care services is a matter of great public concern, I do not believe that the public interest will be harmed if the business of the House is not set aside to debate the issue today. Therefore, I am ruling the matter brought forward by the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr.

Chomiak) does not meet the criteria set by our rules and practices, that is, there are other opportunities for the matter to be debated and the subject matter is not so pressing that the public interest will suffer if it is not given immediate attention. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): I challenge your ruling. Voice Vote Madam Speaker: The ruling of the Chair has been challenged. All those in favour of sustaining the ruling of the Chair, please say yea Some Honourable Members: Yea Madam Speaker: All those opposed, please say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay.

Madam Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. Formal Vote Mr. Ashton: Yeas and Nays, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: A recorded vote has been requested. Call in the members. The question before the House is shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained. All those in favour of sustaining the ruling of the Chair, please rise. Division A RECORDED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas Cummings, Derkach, Downey, Driedger, Dyck, Enns, Ernst, Filmon, Findlay, Gilleshammer, Helwer,

December 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 301 Lawendeau, McAlpine, McCrae, Mcintosh, Newman, Pallister, Penner, Pitura, Praznik , Radcliff e, Reimer, Render, Rocan, Sveinson, Toews, Tweed, Vodrey. Nays Ashton, Barr ett, Ceril/i, Chomiak, Dewar, Doer, Evans (Brandon East), Evans (Interlak e), Friese n, Gaudry, Jennissen, Kowalski, Lamoureux, Lath/in, Mackintosh, Martindale, McGiff ord, Mihychuk, Reid, Robinson, Sale, Santos, Struthe rs, Wowchuk. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Yeas 28, Nays 24.

Madam Speaker: The ruling of the Chair is accordingly sustained. * (1 440) NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS St Mary the Protectress Millenium Villa Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, do I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Burrows have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Martindale: On Sunday, October 29, 1995, the Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral of St. Mary the Protectress celebr ated their 70th anniversary and also dedicated and officially opened their new elevator.

This is a progressive parish whose members have worked hard to build their beautiful sanctuary to sponsor Millenium Villa seniors building and recently have acquired an empty building which will be renovated for youth activities, banquets and other parish functions. Their new elevator is particularly important since now the sanctuary and hall are accessible to both seniors and the handicapped so no one is denied the opportunity to worship or participa te in the lif e of the parish. I want to congratulate the Ukrai nian Orthodox Cathedral of St. Mary the Protec tress.

May God's blessing be upon them as they serve God and the community. 1995 Lieutenant Governor's Medal for Literacy Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, I seek leave to make a nonpolitical statement. Madam Speaker: Does the honourab le member for Flin Flon have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Jennissen: A short while ago a resident from Cold Lake-Sherridon, Mr. Blaine Klippenstein received the 1995 Lieutenant Governor's Medal for Literacy for developing a series of books for children. I was privileged to work with Mr.

Klippenstein several years ago when he was first developing culturally relevant reading material for children, specifically aboriginal and northern children. Not only northerners but all Manitobans are justifiably proud of Mr. Klippenstein's latest achievement. On behalf of all members here, I salute a great educator, Mr. Blaine Klippenstein. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (Sixth Day of Debate) Madam Speaker: To resume debate on the proposed motion of the honoura ble member for River Heights (Mr.

Radcliffe) for an address to His Honour the Lieutenant Governor in answer to his speech at the opening of the session, and the prop osed motion of the honourable Leader of the official opposition (Mr. Doer) in amendment thereto , standing in the name of the honourable Minister ofUrban Affairs and Housing who has 13 minutes remaining. Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): It is a pleasure to rise again to put a few more remarks on the record regarding the Speech from the Throne that was delivered the other day.

I would like to spend a little time talking about-just to give some recognition and some words to some of my constituents in the great

302 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13 , 19 95 constituency of Niakwa which I have the pleasure of representing in this Legislature . I would like to just mention a fe w of the community clubs that have been so active in their participation and their delivering of services to the people and the young people in the area of Niakwa, in particular, the community centres ofSo uthdale Community Club and the Winakwa community centre.

I have had the opportunity to go to a lot of their functions and be involved with some of their events there and a lot of the people who have been involved with the community centres and their board of directors. In fact, I have a strong connection with one community centre, Southdale community centre, as I used to at one time sit on the board and as president of that community centre. So I have had the opportunity to see it grow and to expand into a very vibrant and a very fulfilling community centre in the area Winakwa community centre is one of the oldest community centres in Winnipeg.

It has the distinction of being very self -sufficient It has a very strong and outstanding nucleus of volunteers who get involved with the community centre at Winakwa and have continually year after year brought fo rth initiatives and programs to serve the community, not only the youth of the community but various other sectors in the community. It is seni ors-they have programs going on. As minister of seniors, I have attended events there, that is true . The member fo r St. Bon iface (Mr. Gaudry) is right. There are seniors events that I attend as the Minister respo nsible for Seniors.

I fe el that the amount of hours and the amount of effort that is put fo rth by the volunteers in those two community centres should be recognized fo r their strong sense of community and their strong sense of dedi cation to try to help put back what they take from the community. So they have had a lot of initiatives. In fact, just recently with the season that is upon us, they both had very, very successful-one was a bre akfast with Santa and one was a luncheon with Santa which I had the opportunity to attend.

In both events there was a very strong contingent of young people and children who came out to be part of the cele brations, the games, the programs and the treats. Everything that they had fo r the young people was a credit to the volunteers and the parents who got involved. Winakwa has always had a very strong volunteer base. They have had some excellent athletes, and participants come out of there from the younger side of the people.

They have also had some various initiatives in programm ing that have come fo rth through Winakwa in their hockey tournaments, ringette to urnam ents and their baseball and softball, so they are a very active, community-oriented community centre. Southdale is of the same nature. Southdale is in a newer area, and they have become very expansionary in their community centre. They have added on a covered arena, an ice plant They have just recently expanded their club by another 6,000 square fe et to include more change rooms and more common area rooms and meeting rooms for the needs of the community.

Their board has always been very active. They are drawing upon the new areas of Island Lakes and Royal Woods fo r their membership, so there will continue to be an expa nsionary mode in that particular community club. I would like to just mention some other groups that are very actively involved in the constituency of Niakwa, and that is the Island Lakes Residents Associa tion that has always been very active in the community. Another one is the Southland Park Residents Association.

They have also come fo rth with some very strong initiatives in getting their community involved with their area, not only in the gree ning of the area but in the community efforts in that. One of the groups that I had the opportun ity to sit in on was the Prendergast Resource Centre which is an old school that they took over, and they use it as a resource centre fo r various activities. So, Madam Speaker, there are a lot of very strong organizational people, very strong volunteers and committed people in our constituency of Niakwa that I just wanted to put on record as to being very thankful to represent them.

December 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 303 In closing, I would like to just recognize the season to all members of the House, to wish them the best of the season for a very, very merry and a very prosperous New Year in 1996, and as we go forth with legislation and the understanding of what we are trying to do for the betterment of Manitoba, if we can all enjoy the season, so thank you very much, Madam Speaker. *

(1450) Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Madam Speaker, it is my purpose in this Speech from the Throne debate to speak about three topics: government, power and goals. An Honourable Member: I think you have given that speech before, Conrad. Mr. Santos: Well, you do not listen, and until it gets into your head I will repeat it. I will rely primarily on what I accept as the ultimate source of knowledge, learning and wisdom, namely the Bible. On the first topic of government I shall express how governm ent came to be.

What makes it acceptable that some people, through government, can rule over others, and what is the source of their authority to govern? How does the concept of government come about? Although there are many political writings by people who studied society and government, as I have said, I will base my arguments on biblical writings as my primary source, but it will be supplemented by writings of scholars who had studied society and politics.

I believe, and it is documented, that before the institution of monarchy, the initial form of government was what was known as theocracy or direct government of God of his people. In the book Exodus, it is written: Moses went up to God and the Lord called him from the mountain, thus you say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel, now if you indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall to me be a kingdom of priests, a holy nation.

Theocracy is a word consisting of two Greek root words, theos meaning god and krateein meaning rule, so if theocracy has a meaning it is a direct rule by God of his people. It happened this way, Moses came and called for the elders of the people and laid before them the words which the Lord commanded them, and then all the people answered together and said, all that the Lord has spoken, we will do. Thus, in theocracy, the political formula for governing is vox Dei, the voice of the people, vox Dei, the voice of God, and the voice of God came through their spokesman, the priest or prophet Moses.

An Honourable Member: Get me Reverend Blackjack; I want him to hear this service. Mr. Santos: There are people who do not want to hear this word from the Bible. I do not care. How did theocracy last? Did theocracy last for awhile, or how was it replaced by what we call the institution of monarchy? Well, the people of Israel looked at the other heathen nations and they noticed that all of these nations have kings. Being envious of them, they said, no, set a king over us. So the Lord said to Samuel-Samuel is a prophet, a priest-you hear their voice and make a king for them. So God agreed.

When the people demanded that they have a king, God agreed, and he told his prophet Samuel, go ahead. When the prophet Samuel saw the person of Saul, the Lord said to Samuel, here he is, the man of whom I spoke to you. This one shall reign over my people-­ [inteljection] This is the first king, Saul. Thus the new political formula When theocracy was converted into monarchy, the new political formula becomes vox regni, vox Dei, the voice of the king is the voice of God. Now, how should the king govern over his people? An Honourable Member: Like Filmon does here. Mr. Santos: Like Filmon here, like King Herod.

Then some will explain to the people how it will work. He said: I will write the laws in a book, I will show it to the Lord, and then when the king sits on his

304 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13 , 1995 throne in his kingdom, he shall fo r himself have a copy of God's law. It shall be with him, and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fe ar the Lord, his God, and be careful to observe all His words and His laws. So the King is not free to do anything he can or wish to do. He is bound by a set of moral code or law. That is what justifies him being a king. So you see that the first kingdom was not hereditary at all.

In fact, when Saul fe ll from the grace of God because he departed from the book of the Lord, then he was replaced by David as King of Israel. The people said to David, we are your bone and flesh. As the Lord said to you, you shall shepherd my people Israel, and be ruler over Israel. So all the elders of Israel came to the King in Hebron, and King David made a covenant, an agreement, with the people at Hebron before the Lord, and then they anointed him king.

This is the authoritative origin of what later English pol itical philosophers, Thomas Hobbes and John Locke, and the French-Genevan philosopher, Jean Jacques Rousseau called the contrat social, the social contract. That was the covenant. It is an agreement between the ruler and the ruled. Thomas Hobbes was a British conserva tive philo sopher.

He had a pessimistic view of human nature and said that people by nature are self -seeking, they are evil, they are possessive, they look only after themselves, and theref ore when there was yet no law or no state, no society, the life in this state of nature was solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short. It was a war of one against all. That was the state of nature according to Hobbes .

So the people, being rational-they do not like to live in such a chaotic and violent soci ety-they agreed among themselves to fo rm the social contract that they will give up all their rights under the law of nature to someone whom they called a king, who is not a part of this agreement. The king will have absolute power. The only function of the king is to maintain order in that society, and the people are obliged to render complete obedience to him. In contrast, the liberal-minded English philos opher, John Locke, procee ded on a different assumption, saying that men by nature are naturally good.

An Honourable Member: Man by nature, what about women? Mr. Santos: By that phraseology, the old writing includes both. They are naturally good; theref ore, even in the state of nature, they already live in harmony and mutual peace and tolerance of one another. Yet they could not find life fulfilling there because occasionally conflicts sometimes arise between two people seeking the respective- · An Honourable Member: Like a marriage. *

(1500) Mr. Santos: Yes . Ah, yes. So, being rational, they also agreed on a social contract to fo rm society, and society in turn created government to become the arbiter of this agreement among these people. The people also can improve themselves by having culture, developing their ref mements and good quality as human beings, and also in the state of nature some people have already appropriated to themselves part of the common property.

Theref ore, according to law. there is a natural right to property, which is also a reason why they fo rmed this government so that this natural right to property can be pro tected. The third philosopher was Jean Jacques Rousseau from Geneva, a possession of the French at the time, so he was called a French philosopher. I will call him a social democrat. Although he was a radical, I will call him a social democrat. Jean Jacques Rousseau believed that in this state of nature the people were shy and timid.

They would like to have some kind of social interaction and enrich their life to have a fully satisfying life, so they enter into an agreement or social contract. In this state of nature, the property is commonly shared by everyone in the same way that our aboriginal

December 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 305 people have that notion and conception of sharing of all the natural endowments of the earth. It is only after the creation of the civil society that they crea ted laws and then they recognized the right to private property . So private property was not a natural right at all. It is a legal right created under civil government. The greedy people, the aggre ssive people, the self-seeking people in that society, of course, allocated property to themselves, and then they created government so that they could continue to control over these possessions.

They used government to protect their private property. An Honourable Member: How does this relate to the throne speech? Mr. Santos: We will see. This later was appropriated by Karl Marx, this idea that property is an instrument for oppression through the use of government.

According to Karl Marx, the means of production of goods and services divides the people in society into the property-owning class, what they call the capitalists or the bourgeoisie, and the workers who really produce the goods by their labour but yet do not get the profit from that labour because this is appropriated by the owners of the means of production. They are the oppre ssed class; these are called proletariat, according to Marx.

Theref ore, by the use of the institution of property, there is an institutionalized situation of inequality of human beings. [interjection] As long as they are a property­ owning class and they produce it for themselves, that is good. Now let us talk about this variant of government called democracy. Democracy flourished once in ancient Greece, especially during the age of Pericles, but then democracy became a means by which the people, you know, they do not understand what this is all about and they surre nder the right to a tyrant, and so the ancient Greek philosopher Plato does not favour democracy at all.

He does not. He said the society should be governed by philosopher-kings. People who understand society itself, they are best equipped to govern for the welfare of all. His pupil Aristotle, while not opposed to democracy, will tolerate it so long as the many who will rule under democracy will promote the interest of all, but as soon as the many look only after themselves and forget the rest of the people, then he does not favour democracy. Indeed, Aristotle favoured aristocracy .

The people with balance, with skills, with knowledge, the few who are enlightened should be the rulers in society for the benefit of all. Democracy, however, lost its reputa tion. Even in ancient Greece, it started to become a military state and the other forms of government. Democracy did not revive until later on. It revived in England after the Glorious Revolution, that is, after Cromwell, where Parliament emerged as dominant, and although the monarchy was preserved, it became a limited monarchy, limited by the Constitution.

But the British kings still would like to be absolute despite this change, and when the ugly head of absolutism reared its head again in the form of King George, there was the American Revolution. The American Revolution inspired the French Revolution, and the two revolutions inspired the Russian Revolution, and after the three revolutions there was lots of violence and there is a radical change in the structure of governing, and the political system changed and the political formula changed. What used to be the voice of the king is the voice of God, becomes now, vox populi, vox Dei.

It now becomes, the voice of the people is the voice of God. Now, apparently, there are over 17 5 nations with their own respective constitution, each of them saying that they are a democracy. From the most oppressive to the most enlightened, they say they are democrati c. What is democracy all about? Democracy is government with the consent of the governed. It is constitutionally limited government with powers limited by the constitution, and it runs under the rule of the majority, the majority rule, in making decisions. Those are the three distinguishing features of democracy.

It is a government with the peoples concerned. It is a government with limited powers and it is a government that operates under the rule of the majority.

306 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1995 Now, we will find out if you qualify for that. You could see from vox Dei, the voice of God, from the voice of the king interpreted as the voice of God too, from the voice of the people interpreted as the voice of God too, where the source is of all authority to govern. Very clearly, it is only one source, and this is what was declared by the apostle Paul when he said, there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. There is only one source.

I am leaving that first topic, and I hope I have enough time to elaborate on the other one. The second topic is power, a very interesting concept. What is power in essence, especially political power? We can say that political power is a type of relationship that exists whereby the wishes of the powerful, despite opposition in others, can be carried out. How do you operate? Despite opposition, you can carry out your power, your wishes, if you are in the situation of the powerful.

In social relationships between individuals, between individuals and the group, the powerful are able to carry out their wishes despite opposition. Now, what is the source of this power? Why are some people more powerful than oth ers? There are various bases for it. Some have resources that others do not possess, money, property, or special knowledge, expertise, that others do not possess. Scientists are powerful, too, because they have special knowledge. Respect, people who have the respect of the community, people defer to them.

Their voices are heard, they dominate, and they have some kind of social power, too. In other words, whatever the basis of power, it could be based on religion, it could be based on the strength of knowledge, it could be based on professional association, anybody who has some control of resources that others do not have will have some kind of power. * (1510 ) The only trouble with power is that, according to Lord Acton, if you have this, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Therefore, it is not essential that the power to govern, the authority to govern, always resides in the hands of the powerful. That is a legitimate right to be consented to. [interjection] I am talking about government and you are in government. I am talking about political power and you have political power. This is relevant. In our curr ent system of representative parliamentary democracy, the governed, the voter in the community, consented to this government by participating in a general election.

So a political party like the present party in power gets a plurality or a majority of the seats in this House of representatives of the people. Barely, by their promises, whatever they used, they got the consent of the governed. In addition, there are car eer-appointed officials in government, the civil servants, who are always there and they interpret and apply the laws so they govern with the elected people. Also, there are judges who sit there for life, at least for their working lives, and the three groups govern in our society.

Of course, the consent of the governed is limited to the elected people, but there are other people who also govern there who are institutionalized. Now, whatever they are, whether they are elected people or whether they are judges or politicians, what have we learned of the characteristics of a good ruler? First, he who rules must be just, ruling in the fear of God. First, he must be just, and he should rule with fear in his heart. The fear is he should not steal; he should not lie. All of those things that God commanded. Remember that was given to the king. What is the second characteristic?

A good ruler is one who decides righteously after searching out or investigating the matt er thoroughly. You have to investigate. You have to get the facts before you make a decision. For example, if in the decision to close the emergency ward there is a failure to get the facts, then the decision is clearly wrong and is not legitimate, and the value judgment that was exercised being based on the wrong factual premise is also wrong and should be changed. Finally, the third characteristic of a good ruler. A good ruler is truthful, honest, not greedy nor

December 13 , 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 307 oppressive. If you make a rule which says you cannot have physical and medical examinations except once in every five years unless you can pay for this, then that is oppressive of the poor who cannot pay such medical and physical examinations. That is then morally wrong. Madam Speak�r, my time is almost up. I gave my word and my word is my bond, so I will now conclude. I will say morality as principle is the only basis by which we can exercise righteous judgment.

If a decision is morally wrong, no matter how legal it is, it cannot stand, and the ruler will have to be deposed like King Saul. Nonpolitically correct, if it is morally wrong; policies we have to reject, if we are to rule for long. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Bon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I want to first of all today take the opportunity, as this is the first opportunity that I have had since the April 25 election for a response to the speech, of the importance of the throne speech.

I would like to first of all acknowledge your role as Speaker and the support staff, the Pages and all those individuals who are members of the Assembly and making the smooth operation of it be carried out. Let me as well say to the new members of the Legislature, I congratulate those who have taken on the challenge of seeking public office and look forward to many years of their contributions.

Let me as well say to my colleagues, Madam Speaker, whom I have had the opportunity to listen to over the last several months, weeks, as it relates to their performance, I think that the people of Manitoba can be extremely proud of the representation which they have sent to the Manitoba Legislature to represent them on public affairs. I am pleased to sit with many of those individuals as having known them previously but also again compliment them on their decision to proceed into public office and to carry out the duties of the public aff airs of our province.

Of course, it is at a time when it is not getting any easier to do so, Madam Speaker. The challenges of public office continue to grow and the scrutiny which members come under continues to be very challenging. It seems that the longer this government is able to proceed without having any major problems, the narrower the goalposts get to be set by the media, the higher the rail is that we have to jump over.

So I say that with the greatest of sincerity that I think that everyone who is in this Chamber is doing their job with the utmost of care and consideration of carrying out public office, so I am pleased to be part of this team. I want to as well acknowledge and publicly thank the Premier for his confidence in again allowing me to sit in cabinet as Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism and, as Deputy Premier, I am honoured to carry out the responsibility of an Executive Council member.

Not only is it challenging, but I have to say, Madam Speaker, at Industry, Trade and Tourism it is very rewarding and again I am very confident and I have to say quite honestly I am extremely confident about the future of the province of Manitoba and what we will have to contribute to this country. * (1 520) I guess, Madam Speaker, as well, it is important to point out some of the other initiatives that my colleagues have implemented and I guess I have some concerns and I will get to that part of my comments next.

That is a little bit at some times we see the strain towards attack of the individual rather than the policies of the individual and that, I think, there is not any room for in this place. I want to particularly acknowledge the work and effort of our Attorney-General who has introduced many new initiatives as it relates to being tough on crime, trying to make sure that we do have a safer society to live in. Many new initiatives which I think the critic on the other side is very unfair in not recognizing, in fact he gets very close to some very serious personal attacks.

I think an individual who has sat in this Chamber and should have observed and developed a habit that is a little more conducive to a better working relationship in this Chamber. I also want to say, Madam Speaker, that I was pleased to be the co-chair of our campaign last spring and having worked with all of the different areas throughout the province and my colleague the Attorney General who co-chaired the campaign, but particularly I want to again recognize the commitment of our Premier, a man who has continued to allow his name to

308 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 19 95 stand and to lead this province in a way in which I think the majority of Canadians would be proud to have an individual like that lead and carry out the public aff airs in their province. So I say that genuinely. It is a tough job. It is not an easy job, but he has certainly carried it out in a very honourable and, I think, a very capable way. So I am pleased to be part of this government. I am proud of the policies and will continue to be so.

I believe it is an opportunity through a throne speech to touch on some of the philosophies of our approach compared to the philosophies of the opposition, and, of course, the Liberals are yet to determine what theirs will be as we enter the future. But, it is true that I think there is a clear distinction between the opposition New Democratic Party and the governing Conservatives when it comes to many issues.

One would say that the New Democratic Party pretty much perceive themselves as the saviours of health care, but, when it comes to be anything greater than that, Madam Speaker, I think that it falls far short of what the people would expect, and I think they again demonstrated that at the last election.

Without question, they demonstrated that in the last election. · I want to touch briefly, as well, Madam Speaker, because I guess I rise at this particular time at a time when we have seen the country of Canada go through some very challenging times, extremely challenging times, and what one could observe is that we are going to see a different Canada regardless of what happens with Quebec in the ensuing years.

Our country has changed, and I believe it will continue to change, not necessarily because anybody particularly wants it to change, but there are a couple of basic reasons why change is going to come about. One of the fiscal realities that we have to face, we are continuing to see in excess of 30-some-billion-dollars worth of deficits annually being added to the debts of this country, which is horrendous. Again, we continue to say to the federal government, you have to do something about it, but prioritize it, Madam Speaker.

Do not just pick on one particular area, whether it is health care or education or family services. You have to do something on balance to make sure that we still have the kinds of things that we as Canadians have enjoyed through our history to this particular point, but we do have to be realistic, and I think that that is extremely important The other issue that we have to deal with, Madam Speaker, of course, is the question of which Quebec put themselves through with the most recent referendum.

The point I want to make is, regardless of what the outcome of the vote was, I believe we will see a change in the future as it relates to Quebec's relationship with Canada. I think that we are going to have to deal with it whether we like it or not Just to show you that politics are still alive and well in Canada, what happened in the last couple of weeks? Well, we had the Prime Minister of Canada off er veto power to Quebec, to Ontario, and initially to the western provinces, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and B.C.

Then they all at once found out that for the first time since the railroad was delivered and given to B.C. and extended this country, they may have a chance of electing a Liberal government in B.C. Lo and behold, I am sure the Liberal leader from B.C. phoned Mr. Chretien, and he said, hey, Jean, I am about to win this thing. Do not screw it up for me. Jean said, by gosh, that may be right. I do not want to screw up your chance of being a premier of B.C. Point of Order Mr. Neil Gaudry (St.

Boniface): Madam Speaker, I just wanted to advise that there are some Tory members from the year before that are working with the Liberals in B.C. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Boniface does not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, but it just proves that politics are still alive and well in Canada. It really does. That the Prime Minister all at once realized that for the first time in many, many years there may be the opportunity for a Liberal government in B.C. and he better not turn the people of B.C. off when it comes to Liberals.

So I think that is a clear demonstration of

December 13, 19 95 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 309 maybe why B.C. all at once got veto powers that related to the change in our Constitution. Is it right or is it wrong? We will let the people of Canada decide. Well, now, let us get onto what I think is extremely important, and that is dealing with some current issues that are before the Legislature and part of the throne speech, but where are we really going? You know, I guess I am concerned this last two or three days about the attack and the approach that the New Democratic Party have taken on former employees of the Manitoba government.

I think, Madam Speaker, that particularly the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), who is a member of the cloth, I imagine that he goes to church on Sunday and will be able to go next time he goes before his congregation and he says, I did a good job this last week in the Legislative Assembly. I did a good job. I smeared Mike Bessey's name.

I did it because I did not have any fact, I did not have any-I had a lot of allegations, but I thought it was the right thing to do, was to smear a person who, yes, consummated or was part of consummating a deal as it related to bringing 1,000 jobs and new technology to Manitoba (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) That is not any part of the discussion that Mr. Sale or the member for Crescentwood brought to this table, but he said, no, I will smear Mr. Bessey and that is the teaching that I will take to my congregation on Sunday, that that is the right thing he should do.

That is exactly what the member for Crescentwood has done. He has maligned a former employee of the government of Manitoba without any fact, without any fact at all, even after the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of our province said he is going to set up a process to fully investigate and look at the actions and activities of that individual. But they are not satisfied, Mr. Deputy Speaker, with that; they have to continue to bring a few other people to the table.

They today wanted to bring Barbara Biggar to the table, because as a free citizen doing business in this province, they now want to include her and smear that individual as if there is something wrong with getting a job to do something at which she is a professional. Not breaking any law, not doing anything wrong, but again trying to smear an individual. That, I think, is wrong. I think that those individuals who want to throw that stone, that it is for sure that it wil� in fact, come back to haunt them.

So if that is the game that they have decided to play, particularly the new members and the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), who is a member of the cloth, that is the kind of teachings he wants to take forward to his congregation and he is proud that that is what he brings to this Assembly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, he will have to live with that himself.

I tell him, I think it is unfortunate, but that is the kind of integrity that is lacking with that individual. * (1 530) I want to, as well, talk on a couple of other areas that are of major public importance today, and it deals with some of the decisions that this governm ent has made as it relates to the marketing of hogs in this province. You know, I find it strange, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that for some particular reason members of the opposition are so adamantly opposed to producers of hogs in this province that they are opposed to being able to sign a contract with a processor to assure themselves of a return.

That same opposition party likes, when they get a contract or get a job with a company, to make sure they have an employment contract, that they know how much they are going to be paid and that they are now going to have job security. Yet they want to deny the hog producers of that very opportunity to assure themselves of a contract to market hogs to a plant at a price over a period of time.

It is fine for them to sign contracts of that nature for their labour, for their people they represent in labour, but it is not fme for a producer to make sure that they have a fixed price for a fixed quantity over a fixed period of time. An Honourable Member: That is what single-desk selling does. Mr. Downey: No, that is what the member is so wrong about. She said, that is what single-desk selling

310 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1995 did. That is absolutely wrong. Single-desk selling assembles all the hogs, and the marketing board presents those hogs in different ways to the marketplace. That is what it does. They do not have a fixed price. They did have a fixed price, and this is where I take a little bit of an exception to recent actions of the board because I think the board was clearly dem onstrating that they were coming to deal with the requests of the people they were serving. That is when they were able to forwar d-sell a quantity of hogs on behalf of the producers.

That is when they were demonstrating they were getting on with satisfying the needs of the bigger producers and those producers that wanted to get a substantiated price in a fixed manner. Mr. Deputy Speaker, as soon as the dual marketing was introduced, they withdrew that option. I do not think that was a responsible thing to do.

I think they should have continued to demonstrate they were prepared to show us that they could in fact do what we wanted them to do through the contractual arrangements, but they now in fact put the government in a position where we just absolutely, I believe, have to offer what is being presented. That I am pleased to be a strong supporter of ; and I believe that in the long term what we will demonstrate is in the interests of the producers, the processors, and the job crea tion in Manitoba that will in fact happen.

In fact, with the plans that are in place, we talk about jobs; there will be 9,000 new jobs created because of the changes in the increase in the hog production in Manitoba I could get into, Mr. Deputy Speaker, again the smearing that took place here today by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), again trying to go after an individual who is unable to come to this Legislative Assembly and defend them selves, but had to some way attack those individuals for some reason that this was being done because of their own potential personal gain.

Absolutely false, and I would think there is going to have to be some apologies given from the members opposite to those individuals who are in our socie ty doing their best to improve the economy and working on behalf of the people of Manitoba I think they should reconsider some of the things they said today in this Legis lative Assembly because I would think if they are honourable members, they would want to consider an apology to the members that they brought forward accusations that are untrue and unfounded and without any evidence at all. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, it is surprising, the longer a person is in this Legislative Assembly, how quick 40 minutes goes and 30 minutes even goes quicker. I am going to touch on another important subject before I conclude my comments today as to why I am so pumped up about Manitoba and why our whole economy is doing so well. I think there is room to talk a lot about the positive activities. Oh, I had one other reason-1 raised the issue as it related to Mr. Bessey and the actual comments made about Mr. Besse y. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I do not think that in all honesty the members opposite are upset about the fact that he was involved in helping to create a thousand jobs. You know what they are really upset about? They are upset because Mr. Bessey was one of those individuals who was involved in disclosing the whole MTX fiasco. He was an individual that dug out and disclosed a lot of the information that the New Democratic Party were involved in. He was a research person who provided information to the opposition at that time, both the former member for Pembina and also the Premier.

He was the individual that really got at the whole piece of information as to what the MTX aff air was all about. That, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is why the New Democratic Party are so anxious to smear Mr. Mike Bessey. It goes back to that time. So I think members of the Legis lative Assembly should know. Again, the right thing is what the Premier said. Let the proper authorities take a look at the current situation. I will leave that as it is, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but I think it is important that this Legislative Assembly hear that. There is another subject that is troubling a lot of people.

That is why a throne speech is important I say troubling because a lot of things have happened in rural Manitoba particularly and in the city of Winnipeg over the last fe w years.

December 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 311 With what has happened at the federal government level and with the economy of western Canada and Canada, we have seen the federal Liberals make a major change to what has been traditionally a perceived given right of western Canadian grain farmers to have their grain shipped on a subsidized freight rate. That has been a dramatic change to the agricultural picture of western Canada The member said our party supports the abolition of the Crow. I did not support the method and the way in which it was done.

I believe it was inevitable, it had to happen, and when it happened it had to be dealt with. The first thing I would have done is over the last I 0 years I would have paid those millions of dollars to the producers so they would have had some money in their pockets. [interjection] The member is right. The Conservative Party was in office but it was the Pools and the major grain companies that wanted the money paid to the railroads. We have literally dumped $7 billion into the system, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and we still cannot move grain any better. Let me deal with it a little bit more.

Today it takes approximately a third of a bushel of wheat to ship it from the station which I live closest to. If your wheat was worth $3.65 or $4 a bushel, it takes a third of that to ship it, to elevate it and to clean it. There is no guarantee that that price is not going to continue to increase. Okay, so it increases. No subsidy to pay for that. What happens if the wheat market, and it will, starts to come down? So, at some point, we have got increased freight rates, lower prices of grain.

Particularly as it relates to people living closer to the U.S. border, people can actually see a market right today for $8.50 a bushel for durum wheat in the United States and $5 a bushel for their wheat in their home community. Well, it takes them about 30 cents a bushel to haul their grain to the U.S. to get to that $8.50 market. The point I want to make is, I am not against the Canadian Wheat Board. In fact, I am a strong supporter of that system for the marketing of grain into international markets, strongly supportive of it.

But I believe the Canadian Wheat Board have to be more flexible when it comes to the marketing of grain into the United States. [interjection] No, I believe that we need the Wheat Board to do that. I believe that farmers should have to pay for the maintenance of the Canadian Wheat Board. They should have to pay something for the continuation of that, but they should not be held captive and have to pay a higher freight rate to get their market into the grain of the Canadian system and not be allowed in some way, some more flexible way, to get to that higher U.S. market. There has to be flexibility. I say, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, if that does not happen, western Canadians will lose the Wheat Board by default. Farmers will not put up with being forced to use and lose money through the higher Canadian cost system and lower return and be disallowed from getting a higher price out of the U.S. system. They will not tolerate that. Eventually it will destroy the Canadian Wheat Board. So I say, in the interests of saving the Wheat Board, it has to become more flexible. So flexible is the word.

The other point that I think has to be made at this particular time is that, as I said, as we were being subsidized, it was easier to use the Canadian system, but that is gone. So with desubsidization or the loss of subsidization has to come deregulation. People have to be freed up to maximize the return; and, if we do not, we will have done nothing but put our farm people in a straitjacket, which will surely mean the loss of more farmers and of the opportunity to grow and expand. * (1 540) I have, I think, about five or so minutes left, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but there is another thing that I want to talk about.

We are at a time in our government where, after some eight years now, we have worked, my colleagues have worked, extremely hard. We have squeezed the expenditure side year after year after year on the nonessential areas, those which we considered the nonessential areas. We sized down the civil service; we have frozen taxes. In fact, a lot of people forget this. The first year we were elected we lowered

312 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 19 95 the personal tax from 54 percent to 52 percent. I challenge the opposition members to name one other jurisdiction that has done that. We had a 7 percent sales tax, Mr. Deputy Speaker, when we were elected in 1988. What is the sales tax today? What is it today? I ask the members opposite. Seven percent. We have eliminated the payroll tax on 90 percent of the businesses in this province, a tax that the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) says, how come we are not rich? You know what?

We as a nation and a province are a lot richer than we really appreciate and think we are. It all cannot be measured in dollars and cents. It has to be measured in quality of life. I say, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have done a lot of things as it relates to the economy of this province. We have laid the groundwork. We have frozen the taxes for eight consecutive budgets. In fact, we have lowered-[in terjection] The member says there have been in other taxes. I do not mind saying that, yes, there have been other areas in which there has been a broadening of taxes.

I do not mind admitting that, but I will tell you, at the same time we have put $500 million annually into the health care that was not there prior to this government being in office. We have increased our education expenditures over that same period of time, and look at the amount of money we have put into Family Services to support those people who have not been able to look after themselves. Just look at the increase; it has doubled since 19 88..

So we have lived up to the responsibilities, and that, again, is the reason, I believe, the people of this province gave us the mandate on April 25 to return to govern this province. Now I said I would conclude on some positive notes, and I will. I have about two more minutes. I want to conclude by saying that, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have seen our total capital investment rise in Manitoba, particularly in the private sector. Our bankruptcies are down by 14 .5 percent this year versus the national increase of 11 .3 percent.

As I said, our private capital investment rose by 19.7 percent in 19 94, almost double the national increase, and is expected to rise a further 3.4 percent. Our manufacturing capital investment is expected to rise 70.4 percent this year, our manufacturing investment to create jobs in the manufacturing sector. Let us just reiterate some of those investments that have been taking place in Manitoba: The $200-million­ and-some Canadian Agra complex proposed for Ste.

Agathe where a $55-million crushing plant has been put in place; a $200-million fertilizer plant in Brandon, close to Virden I should say, that is going to create tremendous construction jobs; the proposed strawboard plant at Elie, again, creating jobs and helping remove the need for burning of straw out of our system; the $75-million proposed expansion to McCain at Portage Ia Prairie; $40-million for Schneider; $20-million for Nestle-Simplot; and, of course, we cannot forget what is happening in the city of Winnipeg.

Look at the expansion at the Pallister Furniture company where we have seen tremendous amounts of investment taking place. We have seen the window manufacturing and the building manufacturing companies expand. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am proud to stand here as the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism with the record that this government has, the policies that we have introduced and that we have carried through on without fear or favour of anyone but based on solid public interest decisions and in the interests of the public.

I conclude my remarks today by saying, I am disappointed with the old-think, the NDP party who, quite frankly, have nothing new to offer. I believe as I am halfway through my political career at this time, as I am halfway through my life, we are just starting the beginning of a long, long Progressive Conservative governance of this province of Manitoba, and I am proud to be part of it. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I welcome the opportunity of addressing this Chamber and putting on record my view on several aspects of the latest Speech from the Throne.

It is with considerable interest that I have watched the various

interpretations, the various verbal contortions that emerge as one side or the other puts its own spin on the document. But sometimes I feel like saying, will the real throne speech please stand up?

December 13, 19 95 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 313 And sometimes, like Hamlet, I fe el like saying, nothing is good or bad but thinking makes it so. I suppose the widely varying, often contradictory interpretat ions of the throne speech should be expected given that there are at least three factors operating, namely 57 individuals, three political parties, and I will include the Liberals, and one vague document I was going to add "and a partridge in a pear tree" but that would be irreverent, although seasonally appropriate .

The throne speech is a blueprint of what the government intends to do, and the government, like all governmen ts, wishes to portray itself in the best possible light. That is natural, but equally natural is the opposition's role of asking the penetrating questions and highlighting the weaknesses and omissions in the throne speech.

You do your job and we do our job, but even allowing for the vast general izations that come out of throne speeches and allowing for the wide spectrum of interpreta tion due to individual bias or political ideology, there is still a sense that this particular throne speech is lacking in substance. It is great bedtime reading if you suffer from insomnia though. The tone of the throne speech is inconsistent. To give credit where credit is due, parts of it are quite reada ble, other parts resemble a snip-and-paste collage from a dozen different speeches with a dozen different tones and theme s.

The throne speech is short, boring and lacks cohesion. Sometimes the tone is arr ogant and patronizing. Take for example this line near the bottom of page 1 on the recurring motif of prudent fiscal management, and I quote: "Unfortunately, other governments have not been as committed and now find themselves in serious financial circumstance s." . It takes a lot of gall to blame other governments, not JUSt the fe deral government but other provincial governments . Does the virginally pure Filmon government name the other governments who are not as committed? No.

Could they be talking about Ontario, Alber ta, B.C., the so-called have provinces who contribute in the overall equalization transfers to the so-called have-not provinces, including Manitoba? At the very least, it is bad form to lecture provinces that are actually helping you out. A �one speech should present an exciting vision, a bluepnnt of hope. This throne speech does not do that, at least not for me. I was particularly impressed, however, by my colle ague from Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), who put the throne speech in context for us.

He compared this throne speech to other throne speeches, particularly the 1969 throne speech by the Schreyer government. Then there was excitement in the air. Those throne speeches did not make people yawn as they do today over this throne speech.

As the member for Brandon East has pointed out, in those years and later, there were positive initiatives: Autopac, Pharmacare, eliminating medicare premiums, the stay option for young farmers, putting nursing homes under medicare, community clinics, public housing, Main Street Manitoba, affirmative action education programs and job crea tion programs to give work and dignity and hope to our young people and those on social assistance. * (155 0) I remember well how in the 1970s the initiatives of the Schreyer government put seven public housing units in Cranberry Portage .

I was part of that as a representative on the local housing board. There was a crying need for housing in Cranberry Portage in those days and those seven houses alleviated a lot of stresses ' a lot of ten sion, a lot of potential violence. Now, I know that this is the 19 90s, although the members opposite do not often think we know that, not the 1970s. Cranbeey Portage does not need housing now, but Pukatawagan surely does. It is not good enough to say that housing in Pukatawagan is purely a fe deral issue. Overcrowding affects health and education.

The province is well aware of the health problems faced by the people of the Mathias Colomb First Nation at Pukatawagan. The province is aware of the diabetes the TB and the hepatitis. The province is aware of buildings that were erected on sites where the soil was contaminated. There is no doubt that the fe deral government has reneged on some of its commitments to the people of Pukatawagan, but that does not mean that the provincial government can blame all of Pukatawagan's problems on the fe deral government. The teepees in front of the Legis lature should remind us of that every day.

31 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 13, 1995 The people from Pukatawagan were not just demonstrating for the sake of demonstrating. They were drawing attention to the abysmal housing situation in Pukatawagan, and the province does have a role to play. The citizens of Pukatawagan are also citizens of Manitoba and, indeed, after some prodding by the people from Pukatawagan, the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Driedger) and the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Downey) did meet with representatives from the Mathias Colomb First Nation. I was also present at those meetings.

Yes, help was offered by both those ministers, and on behalf of the people ofPukatawagan, I thank them for that. But is it enough help? No. What more could the province do in conjunction with the federal government to address the lack of housing in Pukatawagan? Well, there are 60 townhouses in Leaf Rapids presently boarded up. The power and water is shut off. These units are a headache for the town of Leaf Rapids, because they must be protected from fire and vandalism. It is a fixed cost to the town,

whereas the province has dropped its share of the grants in lieu of taxes for these units from $60,000 annually to $16,000 anriually last year, I believe, and this coming year I believe zero dollars. That is not being fair to Leaf Rapids. Perhaps these 60 units could be moved to Pukatawagan, where there is such a great need for housing. At least the provincial government should study this proposal, and maybe they are, and I thank them if they are.

One should not assume, despite the deal reached between Ottawa and Pukatawagan regarding housing, that there will be enough housing built in Pukatawagan to cover the shortage. Even if 15 0 units were built in Pukatawagan today, they could all be used. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, to get back to the actual wording of the throne speech again, in the third paragraph the Premier states, quote: " ... my ministers will continue to fulfill the commitment they made to the people of Manitoba this spring when they received a strong, renewed mandate for their policies of prudent financial management, innovative approaches to economic development and job creation and programs providing services to citizens of our province."' First of all, a strong, renewed mandate: Yes, over 40 percent of Manitobans who did vote voted for this government, or at least the government they thought they were going to get.

A considerable number voted for the government on the mistaken belief that they would keep the Winnipeg Jets in Manitoba [interjection] They were riding the Jet stream. But 40 percent of the vote is not a strong mandate. If you take into account the number of Manitobans who did not vote, it is even less than a moderate mandate. As for prudent fiscal management, this government has not yet delivered one balanced budget in its almost eight years of being in power. The last time when there was any money left over in the kitty was in 1988 when the New Democrats left you a surplus of almost $60 million.

Prudent financial or fiscal management rolls off the tongue trippingly, but it has never been practised by this government. In fact, in 1992-1 993, this government incurred a deficit of $8 19 million. They talk about not burdening our children with debt, and yet this government in a single year put every Manitoban woman, man and child in hock for over $800. Was that a sample of prudent fiscal management? The whole long, drawn-out soap opera surrounding the future of the Winnipeg Jets, was that another example of prudent financial management? Did anyone ever find out just