Manitoba Hansard — 10 June 1999 (Sitting 42B, 36th Legislature, 5th Session)

36-5-42b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLIX No. 42B- 1:30 p.m., Thursday, June 10, 1999 ISSN 0542-5492

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James DRIEDGER, Albert DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen FRIESEN, Jean GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LA THLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley, Hon. ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin, Hon. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkficld Park Dauphin La Vcrcndryc Rossmerc Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River St. Boniface Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C.

P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

2591 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, June 10, 1999 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Acting Chairperson): The Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directs me to report progress, and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

Shirley Render (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to ta ble the 1999-2000 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 203-The Graffiti Control and Consequential Amendments Act Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Sp eaker, I move, seconded by the member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford), that leave be given to introduce Bill 203, The Graffiti Control and Consequential Amendments Act;

Loi sur Ia lutte contre les graffitis et modifications correlatives, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the atte ntion of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon twenty Kindergarten to Grade 12 students from Omega School under the direction of Mrs. Gloria Y aremkiewich. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer). Also, seventy Grade 5 students from Southwood School under the direction of Mr. Don Thiessen.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger). Also, nine Grades 7 and 8 students from Philomene Chartrand School under the direction of Mrs. Sophie Ledoux. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Chief Provincial Court Judge Letter Tabling Request Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, retired Justice Monnin stated and I quote: in all my years on the bench, I never encountered more liars in the proceedings as I did in this inquiry. Madam Spea ker, today chief provincial Judge Webster states that the statements made by the Minister of Justice are "misleading and inaccurate" comments. I would like to ask the acting, acting, acting Premier whether he or she will table the letter from the Chief Justice, and why do we again see this pattern of inaccurate information according to the Chief Judge. Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I, too, had occasion to read that

article in the Winnipeg Free Press. Indeed, in response to that article, one of the members of the judicial nominating committee, indeed the individual referenced by

2592 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 10, 1999 the Chief Judge in what are purported to be her comments, phoned me, was extremely agitated and certainly felt his position had been unfairly portrayed. He had confirmed with the office of the Chief Judge that indeed he was the one being referenced by the Chief Judge, and he wanted his position known in respect of the efforts that he had been making in order to ensure that the judicial committee moved along on a very timely basis.

He indicated in his written correspon dence that he made numerous suggestions to Chief Judge Webster to speed up the nomination process and also made a number of changes to his calendar to ensure that the judicial nomi nating process would proceed as quickly as possible. *

(1335) Mr. Doer: I asked the minister or the Acting Premier to tab le the letter, and I would ask the minister again to table the letter. What have you got to hide? The Chief Judge of the province is saying that inaccurate statements had been made by the Minister of Justice. This is a huge issue of trust for the administration of justice in this province, and to sort of deflect away, Madam Speaker, I think the minister should have the integrity to table the letter in this House and make it public.

A year ago the Speaker ruled in this House that there was a series of inconsistencies with the member's statements, the Minister of Justice's statements, between the state ments made in this House on May 7 and May 11 , dealing with the initiation of the nominating process. When will this minister be honest with the people of Manitoba, and why do we have to have the Chief Judge and the Speaker saying that this person is inconsistent and inaccurate with the people of this province? Mr.

Toews: I understand that that particular letter has in fact been released to members of the media, and indeed the court released those letters to members of the media, so the letter is already public. As a result of receiving that letter, which incidentally was received by the media prior to my having an opportunity to read it, I indeed asked my staff to gather toget her certain information which would in fact indicate that my statements are accurate , and I asked my staff to provide that material to me.

I was advised this morning that my staff has been unable to provide that material that they compiled, and they compile it for a number of reasons. Some include on behalf of the Chief Judge, and others they compile on behalf of my department for the appropriate administration of my department. I understand that that material had been removed by one of the Department of Justice officials at the direction of the Chief Judge and that the Chief Judge now holds this material.

So I have written to the Chief Judge, before I can reply in respect of her particular letter, that I would like her to return that material to the office where it was formerly stored so that I can take that material and respond to the letter that in fact she sent to me. I table three copies of the letter that have I sent to the Chief Judge. Mr. Doer: On May 28, 1998, dealing with the requests we made for months about the huge case loads of Crown attorneys, in this House, the Minister of Justice said that this was not an issue raised with me by Mr. Hannon. Mr.

Hannon then subsequently went on to say publicly that he was not misquoted in the media and that he had raised this issue with the minister for over a number of months.

We have a situation now where the Speaker has said that this Minister of Justice has given inconsistent state ments to this House, the Chief Judge has said that inaccurate statements have been made by the Minister of Justice, the Crown attorneys have said that this person gave inaccurate statements about raising this issue with them prior to May 28, and now the Minister of Justice is saying the Chief Judge removed documents in an inappropriate way, and he has asked for them to be returned. How can we have a tenable situation between a Minister of Justice and a Chief Judge in dispute?

Which one, Madam Sp eaker, has lost their credibility with the people of this province and can no longer maintain their position? Mr. Toews: Madam Spea ker, in fact, you heard my response to the last answer. That is not what

June 10 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 2593 I said. The member has misrepresented what I have stated very, very clearly here on the record. Indeed, what I have said to the Chief Judge, I have not indicated that the Chief Judge has taken those documents. I have indicated that those documents are presently in the possession of the Chief Judge. I state in my letter to her that: "those records have been kept, maintained and stored by the Department for years.

I understand that within the past short while, perhaps the last day or so, they have been removed from the possession of the department and have been placed into your possession. At the moment, it is uncl ear to me who made that request, what events have precipitated this removal, and the basis for it. I would like to ... respond to your letter, and the comments that you have made, but find myself in a position of not being able to do so by virtue of the removal of the records from the Department to your office." That is in fact what I have said.

I have not indicated that there was anything untoward about the removal of the records. I am simply suggesting that I require those records to respond to the letter that was distributed by the court to the media. *

(1340) Provincial Court Judge Shortage Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): To the Minister of Justice, who appears to be losing his backers over there, will the min ister- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Acting Premier, on a point of order. Point of Order Hon. James McCrae (Acting Premier): The honourable member for St. Johns and his Leader both- Madam Speaker: Order, please. For clarification, is that an accurate title for the- An Honourable Member: Yes. Madam Speaker: Okay. The honourable Acting Premier, on a point of order. Mr.

McCrae: On a point of order, even now from his seat, the Leader of the Opposition pokes fun at my acting status today. The honourable member for St. Johns refers to members not being in the Chamber. I think that, instead of poking fun at things like that, members of the New Democratic Party would be well advised to keep in mind the plight of farmers and other people in southwestern Manitoba right now who are, as we speak, being visited by members of this House.

I think it does the New Democratic Party no service to be making fun of the plight of the farmers and others in an important region of our province and, at the very least, ought to be called to order for calling to att ention absence of members from the House. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the official opposition, on the same point of order. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): On the same point of order, Madam Speaker, we think the situation is serious, and I asked the Acting Premier a question and never received a response. The Acting Premier could have dealt with that when we asked the question.

Point No. 2, we have raised as lead question the agricultural issue; we have raised it for weeks, and we will continue to raise it today. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Doer: Let me finish. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Doer: Furthermore, we consider a dispute between the Chief Judge of Manitoba and the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) a very serious issue of integrity, and we want it dealt with by members opposite.

Madam Speaker: Recently, in several rulings and to many people stand ing on points of order, I have asked that all members co-operate when speaking to points of order, to speak to the violation of the rule. I would once again remind the honourable Leader of the official opposition to speak to the point of order that was raised, which was reference that was made to members absent. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

2594 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I 0, I 999 Madam Speaker: Order, please. That was the point raised by the honourable Acting Premier. I personally did not hear the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) reference members absent in the House, but that was the point of order raised by the Acting Premier. I will take that point of order under advisement and check with Hansard and report back later. * * * Madam Speaker: Now the honourable government House leader, on a new point of order. Hon.

Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I think you have dealt with the matter at hand in your comments with respect to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer). * * * Mr. Mackintosh: Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Justice and on the issue of his credibility. While the minister had the nerve to tell this House last session that Manitoba was-and I think his words were-among the best when it comes to moving matters to trial quickly, Sta tistics Canada was meanwhile reporting that Manitoba had the worst youth court backlogs of all the provinces in the country.

Now, Madam Spea ker, the Provincial Court, we understand, is in a worse mess because of a shortage of judges. It is putting justice on hold and victimizing victims even more. My question to the minister is: rather than pointing fingers, as this minister does for a living, would he consider the outrage and the words of the Chief Judge of Manitoba and admit that he is a big part of the problem? * (1 345) Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): The member has put erroneous information onto the record, and I wish to correct that.

Indeed, what Statistics Canada indicates in respect of youth court is that variations can be explained in differences by charging practices. For example, Manitoba recorded the highest proportion of cases stayed. High proportions of cases stayed or withdrawn are often indicative of charges set aside pending completion of an alternative measures program. So what we do in the province of Manitoba is when someone has been charged in youth court with a particular offence that is capable of being diverted, that youth then is diverted.

At the end of the entire period, at the end of the diversion period, at the end of the alternative measures program, the case is then stayed. So that accounts to a large degree for the difference in terms of the practices. It does not indicate a problem in the courts. In fact, it indicates that not only do we utilize the regular court system, but in fact we utilize a diversion very effectively. Mr.

Mackintosh: How can this minister, who obviously wants to get onto another topic, Madam Speaker, possibly explain how he can have so little disregard for the functioning of our courts that he took two months to respond to an urgent request from the Chief Judge for more judges. So it took from February until March 3 I to get the applications in, and then he appointed a representative on the nominating committee who could not fulfill his function until mid-July. Was he too busy writing his pre-election announcements? Mr.

Toews: Madam Sp eaker, not only did I move in a very prompt manner in order to meet the judge's request for additional judges, three additional judges, we wanted to ensure that that funding was in place for those three positions. In fact, when I wrote the Chief Judge on that matter, I indicated the manner in which the appointments would have to be staggered in order to meet funding commitments. So that was a very important issue, and I think it was dealt with appropriately and in a prompt manner. In respect of the member for St. Johns criticizing a community member who is volunteering his time, Mr.

MacPherson was very upset by the allegations made against him. Here is a volunteer, a community member wanting to participate in the justice system, and what does

June 10 , 19 99 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2595 he get? Criticism from the member for St. Johns of the worst kind. He has indicated in a document, which I intend to ta ble in this House, the steps that he took in order to ensure that this process would move in a timely fashion. Minister of Justice Public Confidence Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Would the minister, who of course used and manipulated the Chief Judge once before for his own political ends and today accuses her or her of fice of taking documents from his office- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Spea ker, I believe that the member is imputing motives, contrary to the appropriate citation in Beauchesne. Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, on the same point of order, it is not a question of the member for St. Johns imputing motives. The member for St. Johns is simply stating the facts, that the minister will use and does use and is prepared to use his staff and anyone else in order to satisf y his own political purposes. So it is simply a dispute over the facts. It is not a question of motives; it is a question of fact.

Besides, the minister did not cite any rule or citation confirming his position. Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Minister of Justice, I indeed will take the matter under advisement to check the context within which the words were spoken by the honourable member for St. Johns. * * * * (1 35 0) Madam Speaker: Would the honourable member for St. Johns please pose his question. Mr. Mackintosh: How can this minister, who the Chief Judge says made, and I quote, "misleading and inaccurate" statements-she lacks confidence in this minister.

How can such a minister have the confidence of those who work in the justice system and those who rely on it? Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, there were certain statements made in a letter addressed to me that was distributed by the court to members of the media. The content of that letter is well known and well circulated. I have asked for certain information, information that my depart ment regularly compiles, for example, to assess the number of preliminaries in the overall system and the overall impact of the system if there are amendments to be made to the Criminal Code.

What essentially this documentation does-and I have other copies of this type of information that I have received on other occasions. It talks about the commencement of the courts and the termination of the courts on an hourly basis directly attributable to the comments that are under discussion. Those were in the Department of Justice, have been in the Department of Justice for a number of years. For some reason they have been removed into the possession of the Chief Judge. I simply want those documents in order to respond. Minister of Justice Relationship with Judicial System Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I dare say that in all of the history of the province, of all the Attorneys General and Justice ministers, the episode and the character displayed by this Minister of Justice is unprecedented. Madam Speaker, the minister is challenging the very nature of the fundamental relationship between the government and the judicial system.

How does the Minister of Justice explain, because he has been criticized, making public a letter accusing the Chief Judge or the Chief Judge's department of taking records from his department that would allow him to respond to a letter, doing it publicly and using it as a political defence because of criticism that has been levelled at him? That is unprecedented and- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, it is not I

2596 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 10 , 1999 who has stated this alone, but I have indeed a memorandum from one of my departmental staff who also acts as the executive director in respect of Judicial Services. The memo in respect of a request for Provincial Court statistics indicated that the Chief Judge instructed, and a certain clerk is named in here, to deliver the files to the Chief Justice's office as soon as possible on June 10 , 19 99. In fact, they were delivered this morning to the Chief Judge's office. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Spea ker, the mm1ster has not tabled the letter from the Chief Justice, but will he table the letter? You know, the rules clearly indicate that if members should refer and quote from a letter and memo, the member must table it. I am asking the minister to table that correspondence. Mr.

Toews: Madam Speaker, I do not have the appropriate number of copies, but I am prepared to not only table that memorandum which was sent to me by Lavonne Ross, the acting executive director, and Carol Abbott, director of judicial support, Judicial Services, as well as the memorandum from my deputy to the assistant deputy minister of Court Services Division, both dated June 10 . Madam Speaker: The point of order raised by the honourable member for Kildonan has been dealt with. * * * * (1 355 ) Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Kildonan, with a supplementary question. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Spea ker, as a supple mentary, I would like to ask a question of the Acting Premier and the former Justice minister, if perhaps he could explain to me, if he is aware of any instance in the history of Manitoba where a Justice minister has done what this Justice minister did today, by virtue of tabling a letter in the House, accusing the Chief Judge of removing documents from his office, and did not deal with it in private, and in discussions with the Chief Justice rather than trying to make a political issue out of it in order to save his political hide. Can he answer that question?

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Toews: Madam Sp eaker, the member has indicated that I have made some imputation of impropriety against the Chief Judge. I have not done so. I have quoted the letter that I sent in response to a request for certain documentation, and what I indicated is that it is unclear to me who made the request, what events have precipitated this removal and the basis for it. I simply want to know the answer. Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Justice does not have a point of order. I believe the question was put. * * * Mr.

Toews: I think what has to be borne in mind in this par ticular case is that the Chief Judge wrote a letter to me. I respected that confidence until I realized that this letter had been distributed to the entire media. Now it was not indicated on the letter that in fact copies were given to the media, and in order to respond effectively to that, I required some information. I wrote, or I contacted my staff to provide me information which from time to time they do provide me with exactly this information.

In fact, I have a copy of one such document here, and the reply I received was that I was not entitled to material that my department routinely uses in order to do a number of things, and that I was led to believe by the documentation that I have before me, that at the request of the Chief Judge it was removed to her offices. Now I am simply saying I need that information in order to respond to the letter that she sent. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Kildonan, on a new question? Mr. Chomiak: Yes, my final supplementary, Madam Speaker. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

The honour able member for Kildonan, with a final supplementary question.

June 10 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 2597 Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

My final supplementary, again to the Acting Premier or the Minister of Justice, and the question is: does the Acting Premier, a former Justice minister, think it is appropriate for a Justice minister to table a letter, to make public a letter accusing the Chief Justice of the province of Manitoba of taking files and not providing him with files in order to defend their political position, and would it not be more appropriate and would deal with the question of the administration of justice for the Justice minister to not undertake that activity in order to save his own political skin? Mr.

Toews: Madam Speaker, as I had indicated to the newspaper yesterday, I was not prepared to release my response to the Chief Judge because I respected the confidentiality that she placed in writing that letter, and if she wanted to release my letter in response to that letter, that was indeed her choice and I left that open to her. However, when I found out that I could not access the information I required to respond to her-and the member has now asked me to table these letters. I have tabled them.

I have been open with this House, and I will continue to be open with this House. * (14 00) Crop Insurance Unseeded Acres Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Spea ker, for the past several weeks we have raised the issue of the serious flooding situation in the southwest part of the province on behalf of those farmers. But to date, we have not had any answers from this government as to how they are going to deal with this situation. There are things that this government could be doing to help the farmers.

I would like to ask the Acting Minister of Agriculture why we are not looking at the unseeded acreage clause of crop insurance and off ering Manitoba farmers what Saskatchewan farmers have, and that is a payment of $25 per acre for their unseeded acres. It is a standard policy in Saskatchewan . Why do we not have it here? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Acting Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, as the member well knows, this is a situation that is evolving as time goes on in the province of Manitoba.

As we have increased the deadline for seeding dates, we are seeing that the rains continue to fall, and indeed there are more lands that are being impacted by this devastating natural situation. Indeed, it would be far too early for us to jump in and indicate that this is the finite amount of money or this is the finite area that is going to be encompassed in any kind of assistance that is going to be offered. Madam Speaker, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of our province, the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Cummings), ministers from this government are indeed consulting with municipal leaders, with farm leaders, with ordinary farmers and producers in Manitoba, with suppliers of agri cultural products to see just what it is that a government such as ours might be able to do in a situation like this. This is an unprecedented situation.

Madam Speaker, I might also add that we have called upon the federal minister not only to pay some att ention to Manitoba but indeed to pay attention to this geographic region of Canada to see what it is the federal government can do, because they have a serious responsibility in this matter. Ms. Wowchuk: I do not deny that the federal government has a responsibility; they certainly do.

Madam Speaker, given that farmers have complained about the unseeded acres policy under our crop insurance plan for many years, and very few people are taking this program because it is just not very useful, will the government consider changing that clause so we will have a similar program to Saskatchewan where, if they cannot seed, they get a $25-an acre payment after the seeding deadline is finished? That would get money to their hands in June. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

2598 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 10 , 19 99 Mr. Derk ach: There is no way that we can impact the unseeded acreage coverage for this particular economic disaster in rural Manitoba. But let me say that this is a question that is probably more appropriate for the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) to consider in the due course of time as we move through finding solutions to this very serious matter in all of the western side of this province. I will take that part of the question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Agriculture and ensure that the member gets a complete answer to that.

Net Income Stabilization Account U nseeded Acres Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Given that there is such a serious financial crunch for these people, and they have seeded, can the minister indicate whether his government has taken the position that we should be able to access NISA funds for a one-time access without a penalty fee? Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Acting Minister of Agriculture): That is precisely why I indicated in my first response that we have to consider all of the areas of support to agriculture that are available today from the provincial and federal governments and see what kinds of adjustments need to be made in order for producers to be able to access dollars over the course of the next 18 months, because this is not a situation that is going to resolve itself over the course of the next six months or so. This is a situation that we are going to be facing in the next year and a half in this province.

We have to make sure that what ever programs we come up with are going to be able to sustain these people on the farm over the course of that period of time. Madam Speaker, nobody harvests a crop at this time of the year. We are simply putting a crop in, so the impact of all of this natural disaster, if you like, economic disa ster, is not going to be felt in the next six months and could be over the next 18 months or so. Education System Standards Testing Breach Mr.

Kevin Lamour eux (Inkster): Due to questions that I asked yesterday and the day prior, late last night I got a call from a constituent of mine who relayed that the teacher who has been demoted has now been given a gag order and told not to talk to me any longer. The integrity of our standards exams are put at risk. There is a human story that is being missed. The government today is being motivated only because it happens to be the campaign manager for the New Democratic Party. My question for the Department of Education, the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Gilleshammer) is to acknowledge that today more than ever there is in fact a need to have an arm's length investigation. I am asking the Minister of Education to provide- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Any suggestion of a gag order would be of pretty significant concern to myself, and there is indeed not the human dimension of this being missed by myself or anybody on this side of the House. These matters do af fect real live human beings who have families and reputations and those sorts of things, and we do take it seriously.

I do resent a little bit the suggestion on the part of the honourable member for Inkster about political permutations. It was he who raised that matter in his questions yesterday that this whole issue has political implications. It was not me; it was the honourable member for Inkster who made that point yesterday, true though it is. I am not saying that there are not political implications because the person, the wrongdoer, the admitted wrongdoer here, is the campaign manager for the New Democratic Party, one Brian O'Leary, who, after this incident, instead of being- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour able member for Inkster, with a supplementary question. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I believe that the question is very simple and straight forward. Given the comments that the Premier

June 10 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2599 (Mr. Filmon) himself put on the record two days ago, any sort of investigation, whether it is by the school division-and I ask the Minister of Education to acknowledge this. Any investigation by the school division or this department, in my opinion, would be nothing more than a farce. What is needed-and I am asking the Minister of Education to initiate an independent investigation. An Honourable Member: We will pass that on. Mr. Lamoureux: Will he do that today? Please do pass it on. Some Honour able Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr.

McCrae: Other than the profound state ment from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) that this is not China, the silence of the New Democratic Party is perfectly deafening on this particular matter. The silence says maybe more than volumes could say. The honourable member's point is well taken. I read in the Winnipeg Sun today that Seven Oaks Superintendent John Wiens main tains O'Leary's actions did not cause any harm, therefore no action should be taken against him.

It kind of says something about maybe what we can expect in the report coming in a week or so, lending credence to the demand being made here by the honourable member for Inkster. * (1410 ) Nonetheless, out of an abundance of fairness, I think it is appropriate that we await the report from the Seven Oaks Schoo l Division before making such a decision. But given the hint that we have been given by Superintendent Wiens about how he views the situation even before the report is made available to me, I can see why the honourable member for Inkster would be making this request today .

But I repeat: the silence on the part of the New Democrats on this one is deafening, Madam Speaker. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I pose the question to the Minister of Education. The real lack of action by this government is what is really and truly disgraceful. What we want from this government-and I ask for the Minister of Education to acknowledge that the politics, the very politics of this particular issue do not allow for the teacher's best interests to be represented, either the principal or the teacher that has been demoted, and that what is really needed is an independent investigation.

Let us not waste time. Let us act on it today, and I ask the Minister of Education to do what is right. Mr. McCrae: Given the human dimensions involved, the perception that the wrongdoer is rewarded and the perception that the whistle blower is being punished, I can certainly under stand the honourable member's feelings. The handling of the matter by the government is not indeed disgraceful, but there are processes, and we are attem pting to follow those processes.

But, Madam Speaker, I am given reason to be a little bit doubtful about the investigation that is being carried out when we already know the position of the superintendent of Seven Oaks Sc hool Division. I disagree with anybody who says breaching the rules, breaching around security protocols does not do anybody any harm. Madam Speaker, what message does that send to every single teacher in this province, every single student in this province when the principal of a school can breach security, admittedl y, and be found that he has done nothing wrong?

That is a very bad message to be sending out to anybody involved in our school system in Manitoba. I simply say to the honourable member that I think he needs also, as I do, to await that report before moving further at this point. Mining Ind ustry Paper Staking Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Paper staking has proven to be disastrous to many independent and small exploration companies and would have a serious negative economic impact to communities like Bissett, which services many exploration activities.

That is why we have strongly opposed paper staking on this side of the House and have urged the government to learn from other jurisdictions

2600 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June I 0, 19 99 which have proved the paper staking to be a huge mistake. Will the minister immediately commit his government to end his so-called self-regulation and put an end to what is de facto paper staking? Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): Madam Sp eaker, we do not have map staking or paper staking in Manitoba as a technique for setting the boundaries for claims in this province.

With respect to, again, the repetition of the word "self-regulation, " it is substantially the responsibility of the claim stakers, in accordance with the standards expected of those licensed to do a proper job of staking, but there is random inspection to make sure that they do comply legally. But to the extent people want to be fraudulent or people want to avoid self-responsibility, then, from time to time, there will be occasions where people escape responsibility, and then there is punish ment and, hopefully, a deterrent to others to do the same thing. Mines Act Enforcement Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St.

James): For my final supplementary : will the minister acknow ledge that The Mines Act has not been enforced and, in fact, that penalties identified in the act, such as fines up to $10 ,000 and the laying of criminal charges, will not be applied in this case because The Mines Act is unenforceable? Why does this government make laws it is not willing to enforce? Hon.

David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): Madam Speaker, The Mines Act of Manitoba, which is regarded as one of the best in the country, particularly in relation to sustainable development, does have enforcement powers or punitive powers under, as described, and whether or not those can be enforced is a matter that is in the hands of the Justice department right now. The facts of this particular situation that the honourable member for St.

James is ref erring to, with respect to whether or not there has been a violation of the Criminal Code for declaring a false declaration, is another matter that is under consideration, so stay tuned and a decision will be made by the Department of Justice in this respect through its prosecutorial branch. McEvoy Family Apology Request Ms.

Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, the McEvoy family whose daughter and sister, Erica, was killed in front of Club Regent, last May, expressed to me their frustra tion and disappointment at the way the Minister of Justice responded to their complaints about how they experienced the justice system in Manitoba. He brushed aside their questions about the delays and the number of remands, the lack of victim input and assistance by saying that they had no complaints until NDP MLAs got involved. I want to ask the minister if he will apologize to the family. They have asked for an apology.

Will he consider the way that his comments have affected their hope and optimism about justice in their case? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I think that this government has demonstrated not only in word but in deed how we are concerned about victims, and in respect of this particular case, I know that it was a particularly terrible tragedy. I would encourage the McEvoy family, if there is any concern about how the Justice department treated them, I would encourage them to file a complaint, the results of which ultimately are placed before this Legislature in a report.

The strength of the complaint process in our act is unparalleled to any act in Canada. We feel very deeply for the McEvoy family, and we want to ensure that they receive the best possible service from the Department of Justice. Ms. Cerilli: I want to ask the Minister of Justice: how can he assure the McEvoy family that their complaint, which they plan to file, will be viewed impartially and not with the defensive, partisan att itude that he has expressed in the House and in the media. Mr.

Toews: Well, you see, Madam Speaker, they want me to become directly, politically involved in the process that does not allow for that .

June 10 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 260 1 Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Ms. Cerilli: Quickly, on a point of order, the minister should not impute motives, political or otherwise, when I am raising a matter on behalf of my constituents in this House. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind all honourable members to pick and choose their words carefully. *** Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Justice, to complete his response. Mr. Toews: I do not want to get politically involved in the process as is suggested by the New Democratic member.

I want to ensure that there is a fair process in the hearing of any of these complaints because ultimately the result of that process is tabled here in the Legislature. It serves no interest for me to get involved in an inappropriate way. I want that result of that investigation here so that if there is any type of way that we can improve our service, we want to do that. Chief Provincial Court Judge Request for Additional Judges Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): This is a very serious matter before Manitobans in this House today respecting the issue once again of the minister's credibility.

We had the issue of his threate ning a striker. He denied it, and then he expressed regret. He said he was never told of problems in prosecutions. The representative of the prosecutors said he was told many times. He contradicted himself the last time he and the Chief Judge got into a spat. The issue today , and this is my question: would the minister explain to Manitobans if he told the media that he took the request from the Chief Judge for three additional judges immediately to Treasury Board? If that is true, why did it take two months to reply to the Chief Judge? Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): What in fact happened, if my recollection is clear on this, and if I in any way misrepresent anyth ing, I will come back to this House and explain that very fully. But, as I understan d it, when the Chief Judge wrote the request to me for those three additional positions, that request then went through the due process in the department, and it went to cabinet. As a result of discussions in cabinet, I had further discussions with the Minister of Finance.

The discussions with the Minister of Finance resulted in the way the letter was drafted to the Chief Judge in respect of the three appointments and the staggering of the appointments. That is what happened, and I do not think that there was any undue delay on my part. I believe that every time the court has requested judges, we have provided those judges. * (14 20) Letter Tabling Request Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Would the minister, who took two months to respond, now admit that the issue of credibility is directed at him?

That is the issue before Manitobans, and why is he raising this issue of a red herring about the Chief Judge taking documents from his office? Is that just

an act of revenge? I ask him to ta ble the letter from the Chief Judge. Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I find myself in the position that I gave an undertaking that I would not disclose that letter. Now I understand the Chief Judge has disclosed it to members of the media, and I will take it under advisement whether it would be appropriate for me to release that letter in view of the fact that the judge or the court has released that particular letter. This is not an issue of credibility.

This is an issue of my being able to access the documents that were formerly within one of my employee's possession, documents that our department uses for a number of purposes and which are no longer there. I simply need those documents in order to respond to the letter that was made to me.

2602 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 10 , 19 99 Madam Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Mr. Jim Mackay Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Some people may say that the education system does not always do enough to promote the development of musical tal ent and ability. I would like to share with the House today a bit about one teacher in St. James who has proven this wrong. Mr. Jim Mackay spent 21 years as the band teacher at Silver Heights Collegiate.

He has decided to retire, but he will leave a considerable musical legacy behind which I concluded after atte nding an event last night. Many students have entered Silver Heights without necessarily having cultivated their musical ability. They sat in front of Mr. Mackay where he uncovered their skills. Later they graduated from Silver He ights, taking with them awards for their newly developed talent. He has inspired many students to further a career in the music and arts industry. For example, one previous student plays keyboard for Lenny Kravitz.

Another student is currently in Paris working for a national ballet company. Another student, Jim Mair, is in charge of the music program at the University of Idaho. I recently had the pleasure of atte nding his last school concert at Pantages Playhouse. I was very impressed to witness these young students who sounded so professional. The enjoyment they were receiving from playing under Mr. Mackay's direction was readily apparent. Mr. Mackay is truly deserving of the awards he has received during his teaching career, including one for excellence in teaching. Many parents, students and fellow teachers of Mr.

Mackay's have benefited from their friendship and professionalism. His students quickly became like family. It is teachers like Jim Mackay that will continue to develop our students into successful young adults as he passes on the reins to another great teacher, Mr. Blaine Workman. I hope that the many lives Mr. Mackay has touched have truly benefited from the qualities that he carries. Thank you, Madam Speaker, and thank you to Mr. Mackay. Mr. Murray Smith Ms.

Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, on April 27, 19 99, Murray Smith, retired teacher and dedicated community activist, was named the 19 99 Joseph Zuken Citizen Activist. In presenting the award, Professor Carl Ridd compared Murray Smith to Don Quixote whose challenges to established order became his mark of heroism and morality. Murray Smith's professional career and academic record are distinguished, but today I want to celebrate the highlights of his volunteer work.

He served on the University of Manitoba's board of governors for eight years and on the Health Sciences Centre board for 12 years, including three years as chair. He was president of the Manitoba Teachers' Society and has been a long-time advocate for teachers' rights and pension benefits. Murray Smith was a strong advocate for the Status of Women long before it was politically correct for men to champion feminist thinking. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. An Honourable Member: They see your double standard s. They know- Ms.

McGifford: Could you just shut your mouth for one minute, Linda. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour able Leader of the official opposition, on a point of order. Point of Order Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask you to call

June 10 , 19 99 LEGI SLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 2603 the member for Assiniboia (Mrs. Mcintosh) to order. She has been constantly heckling through the state ments. There is a little heckling that goes on between all members, but nobody has been constant through Question Period; we pointed that out two days ago. Now in state ments about people who have contributed a lot to Manitoba, members cannot finish their statements. I think all of us, including myself, should stop our heckling, and the member for Assiniboia should be monitored by the Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Environment, on the same point of order. Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, since I was moved to this particular seat, I have the-1 do not know if it is advantage or disadvantage of having the sound come here from that side. All day long every day that we are in session the members on that side are muttering and heckling and chirping from their seats, and, yes, I respond. Almost everything they hear from me is a response to what either the member for Transcona (Mr.

Reid) has said or somebody over here has said, and the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) is one of the worst, sitting there muttering under his teeth, muttering all the way through . Sometimes I am sitting here reading, and he will say be quiet, and I am reading. Madam Speaker, I do acknowledge that I did indicate that they were honouring someone who is named after an award who was a communist, and that is fine. That is not an insult.

Madam Speaker, I will refrain from heckling, but I do want to point out again this is another example of the double standard of those people who insist that we achieve a standard they find impossible to keep themselves. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Osborne, on the same point of order. Ms.

McGifford: Madam Speaker, I want to take this opportunity to express regret for my intemperate words to the Minister of Environ ment, but the Minister of Environment has been insulting and tossing epithets around about individuals who are here who I am trying to celebrate for community service and who are not here to defend themselves. I think that is quite mean and quite despicable. Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order. Hon.

Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, on the same point of order, I appreciate the difficu lty with which Madam Speaker is att empting to deal with the situation in the House. But I just say, in fairness to the member for Assiniboia, her comments, which I did not hear, I understand were not directed at any of the individuals being honoured by the member for Osborne. Perhaps the lesson for all members is in the banter that goes back and forth across this House. Many times what is intended is not what may appear by those listening.

I think that is a warning I would ask Madam Speaker to make to the members in this House. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would like to ask all members of the House if they would like a five-minute recess to settle the issue once and for all. Is that the will of the House? Some Honourable Members: No. Madam Speaker: No? Order, please, then. Please. I have been standing for almost all of Question Period on and off trying to maintain order. Firstly, let me thank the honourable member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford) for the withdrawal of her intemperate language.

Secondly, on the point of order raised by the honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer), I was attempting to get all members to indeed come to order. I do not know if members in this House recognize, first, how rude you are perceived to be by the public when there is so much disruption, and secondly, when the Speaker stands and asks for order, how very few members pay any attention to the Speaker standing. * (1 430)

2604 LEGI SLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June I 0, 19 99 I would ask for the co-operation of all honourable members in this Chamber. I particularly am very sensitive to the fact that there is a lot of disruption-! have raised it on several occasions-during members' statements. We have only five members' statements a day, and members are allowed two minutes.

That is very important time for all members to make comments, particularly regarding events and individuals in their constituencies who deserve recognition. * * * Madam Speaker: Now the honourable member for Osborne, I believe, has one and a half minutes left to complete her member's state ment, hopefully without interruption. Ms. McGifford: Thank you, Madam Speaker. do not know whether Murray Smith will be pleased or not that his name has caused so much fuss and fervour in the House.

I was speaking about his volunteer record and wanted to point out that more recently he has been a board member of the Manitoba Society of Seniors organization and also president of the Retired Teachers' society. Murray Smith earned the Joseph Zuken Citizenship Activist Award for the range of his volunteer activity but particularly for his recent work in advocating against the federal government's proposed seniors' benefit. Believing that this proposed benefit would indeed be no benefit at all, he took up the issue with great tenacity, organizing and speaking to groups all over Manitoba.

Murray Smith and his colleagues won the battl e, and rightly so. Today, I ask all members of the House to join me in congratulating Murray Smith on this particular victory, on his receiving the Joseph Zuken Citizenship Activist Award and on his long life of dedication to social justice. Order of Sport Excellence Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): On Wednesday, June 9, I had the pleasure of presenting the Sport Manitoba Order of Sport Excellence to the Vincent Massey girls cross country running team for winning the Varsity Girls Cross Country Provincial Championship.

I would like to extend my sincere congratulations to Michelle Carson, Julie Dunford, Tobi Straker, Jill Johnson, Shanna Semler, Sarah Malahias, Janice Rotts, Heather Kirby, Val Carson, Kim Pollock, Jenna Lessak, Christel Johanson, Ellie Lessak, Marie Baffoe and Crystal Wiegner. I would also like to congratulate Michelle Carson who placed second overall in the three kilometre race in a field of 14 0 girls. So congratulations to each one of these very talented and hardworking athletes and par ticu larly how very well they worked as a team. Congratulati ons, Vincent Massey. The Maples Recreation Centre Mr.

Gary Kowalski (The Maples): I rise to speak about a number of organizations in The Maples. As spring arrives, a number of community groups have their windups, their elections, and often these are hardworking volunteers. Quite often in The Maples, as probably in most communities, it is the same people you see serving as volunteers at the parent committees, in the schools, at the community centre, the justice committees, and they do not get anywhere near their recognition.

Recently, I was away from the city to attend a wedding of a niece, and while I was away the annual general meeting of The Maples Recreation Association occurred. From all accounts that I have heard, it was a well-attended meeting. This recreation association in the past couple of years has really expanded its reach. They have gone beyond mere sports programs. There is a lot of work done in hockey and soccer and the baseball programs that they have there, but they also have a seniors' program in the recreation association. They have had a drop-in program there.

They now have The Maples literacy working group having literacy programs in there. In the recent election, they have changed the setup of their board to not only represent the different sports involved, but they have five members-at-large who are going to continue in this direction of making The Maples Recreation Centre a true community place, and I congratulate the board and the volunteers and hope they carry on the good work that they are doing.

June 1 0, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2605 NATO/Yugoslavia Peace Agreement Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I want to rise today to recognize the announcement that NATO has ended the bombing in Kosovo and Yugoslavia. I am sure that all members in the House will join me in my hope that this is the beginning of peace in this region and that there will be further agreements in the removal of Serbian troops. There has been criticism and concern expressed in the local media today that not a lot has been said here in this House over the last 79 days of the military action of NATO in Yugoslavia.

I know myself I have often felt that the debates we have been having in this House over this period have paled in comparison to Canadian forces involved in this NATO action. I want to assure members, as well as on our side, that I am sure there has been a lot of concern. I know that I and others have been in contact with our federal colleagues who do, at the federal level, have the majority of the responsibilities legislatively in parliament over these matters.

But we have all watched with horror at the failed bombing attempts, at the errors made, and now the humanitarian disaster that still is occurring with hundreds of thousands of people who are forced to be refugees. We know that these people have been forced to live in appalling circumstances, that they have been separated from their families, that they have had inadequate food, shelter. They have survived flooding as well as the bombings and the loss of their homes and possessions. We know that there are 5,000 that are coming to Canada and 350 are coming to Manitoba, and I know from the Minister of Housing (Mr.

Reimer) that some of these families are indeed going to be housed in Manitoba Housing properties. I also want to recognize, though, the lack of forethought in planning for the obvious humanitarian refugee needs that were going to be occurring when the bombing was first initiated.

I also want to recognize that the horror is going to continue as we now have to replace the infrastructure and deal particularly with the fact that depleted uranium shells were used in the bombing of Kosovo and that the radiation from these shells, as it did in Iraq, will continue to have environmental and human health con sequences for many, many years to come. ORDERS OF THE DA Y Committee Changes Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: Selkirk (Mr.

Dewar) for Transcona (Mr. Reid) for Tuesday, June 15 , 19 99, for 10 a.m. Motion agreed to. House Business Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, given some changes in the availability of ministers and critics, my colleagues in the House leadership in the opposition, we have been attempting to accom modate as much as possible, and I hope members do bear with us in accommodating so many interests as one has to.

The first thing I would like to do is ask today, given that we had our private members' session this morning-I believe if you canvass the House, there will be a willingness to waive private members' hour. Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to waive private members' hour scheduled for this afternoon? [agreed] Mr. Praznik: Secondly, Madam Speaker, we have some changes to make in the order of Estimates, again to accommodate a variety of members. The first one, and I would seek approval of the House to make these changes, is that the

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in the Chamber will consider the Estimates of the Department of Energy and Mines today, and I look to my colleague if we could agree for Monday as well, understanding that we will be likely back in with Executive Council in the Chamber on Tuesday. As the member is aware, I belie ve the Premier (Mr. Filmon) is attending a particular function. That

2606 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I 0, 19 99 will have to be confinned with respect to Monday. We will do that on Monday. I look to my colleague. I believe some confinnation is required, but I wanted to mention it today to give notice to members as much as possible. So for today I will be seeking leave to move the Department of Energy and Mines into the Chamber for today, and we will report back to the House on Monday with respect to Monday. * (1 440) Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to penn it the

section of Committee of Supply of the Estimates for Energy and Mines to meet in the Chamber? [agreed] Mr. Praznik: We have moved the Depar tment of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, now in consideration in Room 255, I believe. That will continue today. I just look to my colleague whether or not there is agreement for Consumer and Corpor ate Affairs just today or to continue in there until it is completed in the order of Estimates. Well, then, we will ask simply for leave for today.

Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House for today to pennit the Estimates of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs to meet in Room 255? [agreed] Mr. Praznik: Madam Spea ker, this does not require consent of the House. The Department of Labour is continuing in its Estimates in Room 254. Just for, again, infonnation, it is my under standing that those Estimates may perhaps be completed today, in which case it is the Civil Service Commission which is next on that order. I just only say that so that all concerned are aware that that may be called later on today.

Madam Speaker: We do not need unanimous consent for that, but I will reiterate the statement if you so desire. Department of Labour Estimates will continue to be dealt with in Room 254, and upon conclusion of the Estimates of the Department of Labour, the Civil Service will be dealt with in Room 254. Mr. Praznik: I would therefore move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Environment (Mrs. Mcintosh), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and that this House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Most Gracious Majesty.

Motion agreed to. * (1 450) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) LABOUR Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume the Estimates of the De partment of Labour. When the committee last sat, it was considering item 11 .2. Labour Programs (

k) Worker Advisor Office

(2) Other Expenditures, on page 11 6 of the Main Estimates book. Shall the item pass? Mr. Da ryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Chairperson, I have had a chance to collect my thoughts. When we ran out of time yesterday afternoon, of course, I was somewhat hesitant in that regard. You had indicated with respect to the Worker Advisor Office that each of the worker advisors has a caseload of approximately 50 Workers Comp case files and that there are no waiting times for individuals who call in at the present time.

Can you give me an indication of the fluctuation in the number of cases that the individu al caseworker might face? I am sure there must be some fluctuation throughout the course of the year in what has been the experience of the Advisor Office? Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Labour): Mr. Chainnan, in response to my honourable colleague's question, the fluctuation in each worker's caseload would be as low as 35 individuals as open files, and it could go even as high as 55.

I mentioned 50 as an average case load yesterday, but, in fact, sometimes the burden does ebb and flow depending on the exigencies of the moment, but it would be as

June 10 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2607 high as 55 open files at any given time. The mean average of the number of files processed or handled in a given year of clients or files would be about 14 0 per person. Mr. Reid: If the average caseload is 50 per advisor-and I know you say it fluctuates in there-how often would we be communicating with the claimant, the Workers Compensation claimant in that regard? So if you are doing 50, would you get to one claimant every month and a half, for example?

How do you prioritize the communication there and the workload with respect-do you do it based on when the appeals are coming up? I am looking here in the sense of service or level of service to the individuals and the com munication that would take place, considering if you do one every working day it would be nearly two months before you would get back to a claimant again. Mr. Radcliffe: There is a standing protocol, I guess, in the department that each officer must respond within 24 hours to a call from any individual claimant who is seeking assistance or help.

Beyond that, I cannot really comment because there is no monitoring or hands-on supervision or looking over the shoulder of each individual worker. So, therefore, the contacts with the individual claimants vary as is required by the individ ual clients from time to time. If they need a lot of care, they get that. If they need sporadic or intermittent care, they also get that. So it is not something that is mechanized or minimal standards that, you know, you must call through your lists once a month and talk to everybody.

You talk to them and you do the job as required, when required, and if it is intense, you work through the intense period, and if it is somebody who is less intense, well, then, you deal with that accordingly. Mr. Reid: I am sure, at least this was my experience from last year, that there is some turnover in the Worker Advisor Office with respect to staff, and I am wondering if you have a list of the names of the advisors, not necessarily put on the record, but just a list of those individuals available so that I might see whether there has been turnover in the last year.

If that information is not available here today, it is not crucial, and perhaps you could supply it with other information that may be coming forward. Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, I do undertake to supply my honourable colleague with a list of staff in this capacity. For the purposes of this discussion, I would advise my honourable colleague that there are two new employees who are worker advisors at this point in time that were replaced between now and this time last year in the existing complement. Mr. Reid: Can the minister give me an indication of where these two new employees may have come from?

In past experience, some have come from outside of any involvement in any government agencies or departments. Last year there was one, I believe, who came from Justice, and one has come from within the Workers Compensation Board. There have been shifts of staff internal to government operations, so I am trying to get an understanding here of where these two individuals would have come from. Mr. Radcliffe: One individu al came from Workers Comp, and the other person came from the Alzheimer's Socie ty. The one position was filled by way of secondment and then an infill of a vacant position.

That was the Workers Comp person. Then the second position required bulletining. That was done, and this person responded to the request. Mr. Reid: I am not quite clear. You said one was seconded and came from the Workers Compensation Board.

If that is accurate, then, can you tell me, because the Worker Advisor Office is supposed to be viewed and separate from the functions of the Compensation Board, how would the Worker Advisor Office handle a situation if the person came from the Compen sation Board then and had dealt with the files or had some contact or knowledge of the files for which in the cases now they are in a position of having to be acting as an advocate on behalf of that claimant? * (1 500)

2608 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 10 , 1999 Mr. Radcliffe: I am told that the department has basically what is tantamount to a conflict-of interest protocol whereby the Workers Comp person self-declared if in fact this worker had a face-to-face communication or any file know ledge even, however remote, not even a hands on file management, but even a knowledge of a file, and that person withdrew and had nothing to do with that particular application or situation as a worker advisor.

Further to show that in fact this protocol was effective, there have been no complaints, no comments, no feedback to the Worker Advisor Office that anybody felt aggrieved or had any problems with the individual person. Mr. Reid: In that regard, I do not believe I have had any claimants contact me with respect to that individual either. When you mention seconded from the Workers Compensation Board, I am just wondering: is that the appropriate term to use?

Did the worker advisor or the deputy minister perhaps go to the Workers Comp looking for people, or did that individual actually make application to transfer over, because seconded looks like we are searching instead of bulletining out for job vacancies? Mr. Radcliffe: The department, Mr. Chairman, did issue a request to the Workers Comp Board to determine whether there were any individuals who were interested in working over at the Worker Advisor Office. There were 12 applica tions that were submitted. All 12 applications were screened, interviewed, their qualifications reviewed, and one person was chosen.

The placement was to be for one year, and that was how this person came to be placed in the depart ment at that point in time. Once the person was there, a job vacancy came up and they filled that job vacancy. Mr. Reid: The minis ter mentioned it was for a one-year placement for that particular advisor. Why would it be for one year? I do not under stand the functioning of why you would bring someone in for a year. I mean there must be some level of training that is involved in that. Is there a condition or a reason that it was only for the year? Mr.

Radcliffe: Basically, this was a managerial or administrative undertaking or arrangement between the Workers Comp and the Worker Advisor Office that the person would come for one year, be placed with the department for that particular year, and, at the end of that year, would be reviewed with regards to the success of the placement, I would presume, and further decisions made. Mr.

Reid: So at the end of that year then the individu al would be sent back to their original employment, original position, and that we would have to then seek out another person, or am I misunderstanding the process that you have in place? Mr. Radcliffe: The whole basis for this movement of staff, Mr. Chair, was a matter of partnering or facilitating communication and comprehension of the different environments. So the department wanted to foster a degree of understanding amongst the staff of what the Worker Advisor environment was like.

On the other hand, when a Workers Comp person comes over, worker advisor colleagues would understand some of the attitudes, some of the principles, goals, and reality of the Workers Comp Board. So the idea, the concept, was that the person would come over from Workers Comp in order to foster greater communication and understanding. At the end of the year, that person would be reviewed with regard to whether that person would stay on or not, and, before the year expired, a vacancy came up in the Worker Advisor Office. So that person who came from Workers Comp then moved into the vacant position.

There may well be opportunities in the future for Worker Advisor people to move over to Workers Comp Board to facilitate greater understanding between both sides, so that one is not looking at an adversarial abyss with two isolations but rather a working partnership, and an issue more of conciliation and facilitation between the two arms of administration. So that is sort of the general vision; that is the purpose. In fact, in this particular case, the scheme was never fulfilled, because in fact the person was permanently placed.

But who knows, I mean, there might be further administrative changes in the future of this type.

June 10 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 2609 Mr. Reid: So is the Worker Advisor Office or the ministry considering other secondments to come in for training purposes to further that objective that you indicate of trying to provide for some cross-understanding between the functioning of the two operations, the Worker Advisor Office and the Workers Compensation Board? Is that part of your plan for this year? Mr. Radcliffe: Right now, Mr.

Chairman, there is no forethought of extending the participation to the Workers Comp Board, but, in fact, the department is looking at almost a clerkship or internship situation with employees from the Manitoba Federation of Labour or the MGEU. There is a training component that goes on where the worker advisory does assist in training some of the people from these other organi zations, and this would be an extension or a complement to their academic training. So this is what is anticipated may very well happen. Mr. Reid: I look at this from the point of view of the claimant.

As a claimant, there is often-at least the calls that I get to my office, and I am sure that my office is not much different than what other MLAs have with respect to the caseload involving the Workers Compensation Board. But how does this further the under standing or the perception of the public, the claimant in these cases, when this information is no doubt public to some degree? I mean, it is not that big a secret.

Friends and neighbours and relatives talk to each other about where they work, and there is word of mouth. * (1510 ) If a claimant becomes knowledgeable of someone who was working in the Compensation Board in what many view to be an adversarial relationship for at least 15 percent of the claimants of the Compensation Board, judged by the survey numbers, the raw numbers that were given to us some time ago, and yet the individual then could be transferred over to the Worker Advisor Office where we are trying to build the understanding that the Worker Advisor Office is for the benefit, acting as an advocate on behalf of the claimant, how do we maintain that separation between the two functions?

I understand that they are dealing with the same legislation and the

interpretation of it in many cases, but how do we continue to build the public perception or not do anything to under mine that belief that there is a separation between the Worker Advisor Office and the Workers Compensation Board if we bring people and we actively seek people from the Compensation Board's side and bring them onto the Worker Advisor Office side?

Now, I understand that there may be a benefit to doing that with respect to the limitations on training time required, because if you are working with the act on the Workers Compensation Board side, of course you would have knowledge that you would carry over and you would be able to put that to good use, obviously, but I am looking here at how we are in the best interests of the claimant who would come to the Worker Advisor Office. Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, I guess I can cast myself in a litigant role for a moment because I did spend 25 years of my life being an advocate for litigants.

What one does when one enters this sort of a role as an advocate is that one espouses and presents the interests and the concerns of your client of that moment. That clientele can change from time to time. It is very important to maintain an objectivity.

It is very important to have an understanding of the other side of the coin, and so I can share with my honourable colleague that for years I was a def ence attorney, but it was very important for me when litigating in the criminal courts to have an understanding of the mentality of the Crown, how the Crown works structurally, what their value structure was, the priorities under which they dealt. One often finds, and I can look around the def ence bar today in Winnipeg and I can point to some leading defence attorneys today who started out their life as Crown prosecutors.

So it is very important that if one is going to be effective in this sort of an environment, that one have a working knowledge, a real internal understanding, of both sides of the line, that in addition to the fact that this is not a court of law but rather a matter much more of concil iation. One does not sacrifice claimants' views or claimants' interests, and I think the proof of that is that there have been no compla ints and no comments made to the Workers Advisor Board

26 10 LEGIS LATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June I 0, 19 99 over the past year with regard to this individual is the proof of the pudding, that nobody has perceived that there has been a conflict of interest. I think, in addition, the protocol that has been set out and followed vis-a-vis a conflict of interest has also been effective. Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair I would look again as an example to try and illustrate the point for my honourable colleague, Mr.

Chairman, that when a judge is appointed from the private bar or from the Crown in our province, the bar in Manitoba is a very small community, and it is a very intimate community. The people who are often active in the courts system are a very small select few, and judges are able and capable very quickly of obtaining an obje ctivity, even though they may have at one point in time been an insurance attorney, or they may have been a plaintiffs lawyer, or they may have had a particular bent to their private practice.

They are able to tum the comer on that and deal with cases not in a conflict of interest, because, obviously, there is a waiting period within which one does not receive cases when one is on the bench from one's former firm for I think it is a period of at least five years. There is a cooling-off period. What I am trying to do is to explain to my honourable colleague that from the employee's side, that I am sure that the employee has travelled this road of ob jectivity, of assuming a new identity, of assuming a new role, while at the same time bringing a wealth of knowledge from the other side of the fence.

The public, obviously, has not been concerned with this, and I am sure that management being whom they are and aware of legal principles and aware of natural justice, that if even there was a scintilla of a doubt of inf ringing, these precepts of administrative law would interpose themselves immediately if, in fact, any function would be jeopardized within the Worker Advisor Office. Mr. Reid: I can only give you anecdotal information here. I cannot say that I am know ledgeable of any complaints that have gone to the Worker Advisor Office or to the ministry in this regard.

I know that each of us who deal with these cases sometimes have to take them with a grain of salt, and you have to kind of put your own test to the cases or the information that is brought to your attention. There are cases where I have had people tell me that they have tried to use the services of the Worker Advisor Office-and I am not saying they do not do a good job because I think by a very large part they do. But there are the occasional cases that come along of individuals who say that they have tried, and, of course, there has been no success or they were not 1 00 percent satisfied.

I will not say they were totally dissatisfied, but they were not I 00 percent satisfied, and they have gone on and then come to our office seeking assistance in that regard. I am trying to preserve at least the perception of the independence between the two bodies, and if the actions of seconding services from the Workers Compensation Board under mines the public perception that I think exists of the good work that the Worker Advisor Office does, I think that that would do a disser vice to the Worker Advisor Office and to the overall advocacy role that they have played on behalf of claimants.

That is what I am worried about when I raise the matter from that point of view. In the Supplem entary Estimates, it indicates over a thousand cases, and I know the annual report talks of actual results of last year; I am talking '97 -98, 1 ,235 cases. Can you tell me what the total number of cases was for 19 98-99? Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, 1, 352 cases. * (1 520) Mr. Reid: So we have seen about a 11 8 or 11 5 case increase year over year. Can you tell me what is your success rate in the handling of those I ,352 cases?

I would imagine that some of them are still perhaps outstanding and unresolved, but perhaps you can indicate how many of those in that case and how many of them were resolved at various stages, whether through the process of going back to initial adjudication or the numbers through appeals or the numbers that were

June 10 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 261 1 disbanded or perhaps moved on to final levels appeal, including MRP. Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, I am told that the successfully appealed cases at a primary adjudication level by the Worker Advisor Office is 70 percent. Then the percentage of cases successfully appealed at the final Appeal Commission level is 38 percent. Then there is an interim level of resolution which is more formal than the primary level that I have discussed and that is the review office, and 49 percent of those cases are resolved to the claimant's satisfaction. Mr.

Reid: Could you give me a breakdown on those numbers? I mean the percentages obviously do not add up to 10 0, for obvious reasons, but I am looking for the number of cases that would move to those different levels. So, in primary adjudication, if you had all 1, 352 moving to that level first seeking some resolution, how many would move on to the review office and then the number that would actually be moving to the Appeal Commission for some resolution? Mr. Radcliffe: We do not have those actual numbers here today, Mr. Chairman. We will undertake to supply them to my honourable colleague. Mr.

Reid: Can you tell me how many of the cases would normaJly carry over from year to year so I have an understanding? Mr. Radcliffe: The carry-over from fiscal year '98 to '99 to '99-2000 was 13 2. Mr. Reid: Going back to my question of first contact. I think it was indicated that first contact is made within 24 hours. I think that was the information the minis ter supplied. In your report here, it talks about case assignment, in the Supplem entary Estimates, and then first contact with the client occurring within four weeks, 80 percent of the time.

Can you give me an under standing of-I mean, four weeks if someone has just received a letter of benefit termination from the Compensation Board, which is usually the precipitating factor for someone to pick up the phone and caJI the Worker Advisor Office or an advocate. I am trying to get an understanding here of what is the accurate picture. Is it 24 hours when someone calls the office with respect to that or do they have to wait four weeks for an appointment with that worker advisor after it is assigned, and that is after the 24-hour contact period, or give me some indication of how that functions? Mr.

Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, the process of induction or intake is approximately as follows, and this is a generalization so there are always exceptions to the rule, but normally what happens when someone contacts the Worker Advisor Office, the Worker Advisor Office will, if the person has not come in directly to the office but rather contacted the office by mail, an authorization form wilJ go out to the claimant, the claimant wilJ sign the authorization and that wilJ be returned to the office. That is an authorization permitting the Worker Advisor Office to have access to the WCB file.

So as a general rule, and again, I caution my remarks, there can be shorter times and longer times, this usually takes about a week in the experience of the office. Then the office sends for the physical file from the WCB. So by the time the correspondence is generated, mailed over or transported over to WCB, the file located and transported back to the Worker Advisor Office, that is a seven to 1 0-day process.

Then as a working guideline, the Worker Advisor Office allows the particular worker advisor a five-day opportunity to review the file, become familiar with the material, digest it and internalize it so that they have a working familiarity with the material that is on the existing file. At that point then the advocacy roJls forward. At any time, either during the intake process or through the active management of the file, if the claimant should phone the officer, the working rule is that it is a 24-hour turnaround time to respond to the person's phone call. Mr.

Reid: What happens in the other 20 percent of the time if your results here are first contact in four weeks 80 percent of the time? What happens in the other 20 percent? Mr. Radcliffe: That other 20 percent of the time represents the obvious and human situation where perhaps the claimant takes their time in

26 12 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 10 , 19 99 returning the authorization, does not understand it, does not sign it, has to follow up on it. It could be that there would be delay at the Workers Comp Board on retrieving all the parts of the file and making sure that it is reproduced and sent over. It could be that the file is of such a voluminous nature that the advisory person needs more than five days to wade through all the minutia of the file.

Obviously, you know, some of these are very straightforward, and sometimes when you get into very complex medical matters that have been ongoing for some particular time, with a lot of technical medical evidence that has been submitted, they do take a significant length of time and you have got to be sitting there with either your medical dictionary or other source books in order to wade through and understand really what the issues are.

I can attest to that from some of the material that I have received in my office where I too get claimants who contact the minister's office thinking that I am an office of ultimate appeal. I am afraid not and do not want to disabuse my honourable colleague of that fact. In fact, again as I have said publicly, I am the keeper of the process. * (1 530 ) My concern is to make sure that there is expeditious response, that files do not get lost, that people are treated with courtesy and dignity, that the process is working.

But it would be very, very, improper for me as a political person to interfere with the substance of the files and interpose myself as a medical officer, which I am not, or interpose myself as an adjudicatory person when I am not. My role is to see that the process itself runs in an appropriate, humane and compassionate manner.

But I can assure my honourable colleague, and I am sure you have had the same experience, that when you get a three-page detailed letter of a tale of woe from some claimant who is angry and frustrated and obviously sincerely hurting and has had three years of experience at battling, there is a lot of detail that you have to absorb in order to understand it in order to react intelligently.

Then I have an assistant who goes back and relates to the Workers Comp Board, and often I will ask questions to satisfy myself that the process has worked properly and if not, draw it to the attention of the appropriate manager that I would like a response given or I would like somebody's file brought forward and considered. Sometimes files get lost and that has happened. That is my role as watchdog to make sure that the system works and works well for these people. But sometimes, in order to talk intelligently, you have to absorb the stuff and it can take a number of days to work through it. Mr.

Reid: Well, I think when we were having our earlier discussions with respect to staffing, I had asked about individuals that the minister has for his staff, and he has indicated that he has a person who works on compensation cases that would come to his of fice. I think it would be probably the best way of describing that. So what role does that individual play then in his or her, I guess it is his in this case, capacity when the minister's office obviously does get cases dealing with the compensation act?

The process between the minister, his staffperson, the work advisor and the Workers Compensation Board, how do those pieces all function together? What is the role of that individual then? Do they communicate with the Worker Advisor Office and let the worker advisor do that advocacy work, or does that individual that the minister has on staff communicate with the Compen sation Board and deal with those matters, and what advice do you provide to that individual doing that work? Mr.

Radcliffe: It is a problem-solving tech nique of a general nature and so the employee in my office would either contact the point person who is the liaison with the Workers Comp Board or managerial level of the Worker Advisor Office or in fact even sometimes the individual worker advisor, depending on where the issue may lie, obtain the facts, obtain the perspective from the Workers Comp side.

Having been a professi onal of some 25 years, I have learned, I guess, to be able to read between the lines often on different explanations as to when something has the patina of fairness and reasonableness and when in fact something may have fallen apart. If something has fallen apart, then that is obviously brought to the attention of management, and it is rectified. So that is the general overall relationship.

June 10 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 2613 The mini ster does not ring up the general manager of the Workers Comp Board or the chair of the board of directors because that then smacks of interference. This way removing oneself a step or two away from the function, you get the opportunity to overview the function and still keep oneself out of the issues of substance and the of trying to exchange oneself for making indiv idual hands-on decisions, which one should not do as a minister. Mr. Reid: Well, then, what direction does the minister or deputy minister provide? I think it is Mr.

Robinson who does, as the minister's assistant involved in the handling of Workers Compensation cases. What guidance do the mini ster or the deputy minister provide to Mr. Robinson? Do they leave it to his sole discretion to decide on what needs to be done with respect to cases that may come to the minister's office seeking attention? Mr. Radcliffe: Well, I have a number of standing orders, I guess, or principles that I employ in communicating with members of the public.

Whenever a letter comes in from a member of the public, my staffperson would immediately respond, acknowledge receipt of the letter and saying this matter is under review and we will be back to you shortly. Then, as a general rule, unless there is some good reason why not, I like to have a response back from the bureaucratic level or the management level or the actual working level of the file within seven to 10 days. I like a response back in my office with an explanation as to what has happened.

Generally speaking, I have found that there are often matters of communication, and you have to understand, which I am sure my honour able colleague does, Mr. Chairman, that often these people are emotionally involved. They are not people of a high education level. They are people who are feeling threatened and vulnerable, and you have to take that all into account when you are making these inquiries and dealing with their matters. You have to deal with them very sensitively.

Then a letter will be prepared in my office by my staffperson, either summarizing the inquiry that we have had or presenting the material that we found in a clear, concise, simple and direct manner. There can be often a follow-up with a ref erence for that person to contact a worker advisory person so that there is some remedy that the claimant can follow. So the person is not just left dangling, with a shallow piece of paper in their hand, but rather that there is a course of action that is being recommended so that the claimant can follow up with a human being, and they are redirected at an appropriate level.

Often, I have found that people sometimes become frustrated with the maze of government or the maze of administration because there are so many people, and you have to tell your story so many times and you are never sure which is the right person you should be speaking to. So part of our role is to focus the question, focus the direction, come up with the right level and the most effective person that the claimant should be speaking to so that they can get a hands-on answer. We make it very clear in my office that, in fact, I am not an appeal court of last resort because that is a common difficulty.

For example, sometimes I do take people into the office and interview them just to get a feel for what is happening, because I think that is important as well that you actually get a chance to meet the real people and they are not just pieces of paper crossing your desk. I can recount to my honourable colleague that one Friday afternoon, I was pushing paper across my desk and this woman came storming into the office. She had a very thick European accent and was very distressed. She wanted to speak to the minister, so I said, fine, you are speaking to him, sit down, have a cup of coffee.

I put her in my armchair and poured her a cup of coffee, and I listened to her story. The conclusion I came to was that she had come from another culture and, obviously, another country in middle Europe. She had been used to a different system of justice and almost a different rationale for problem solving. So I took it upon myself at that point to find a co nationalist, a co-ethnic person as a social worker who could go and speak to her from her own community in her own language, and through my own personal contacts I located that type of a person.

I then shared the social worker's name with the claimant, and the claimant then went on her way and decided her case and her remedies for herself.

26 14 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 10 , 19 99 That gives you a flavour. I like promptness, I like direction, I like clarity in communi cation with members of the public, with members of the board. I also like to have an open door for individuals so that if they feel that they have to come and tell me their problems, I am there to listen. I will listen, sometimes much to the chagrin of my staff, but I feel it is important that one do this as long as you can still function and until they consume you, which often does happen. Then sometimes there are the people who are-how should you say it?

They are the chronic attenders. They are part of the backdrop, like the Greek chorus in a- [interjection] I am sorry. An Honourable Member: I have a few to send you. * (1 540) Mr. Radcliffe: Oh, you have a few to send me. Yes, they are the regulars. There is the gentleman who camps on the front doorstep from time to time. I have had some in-depth conversations with him and got to know him personally and, in fact, greet him warmly when I see him on steps.

I am not sure if he knows who I am yet, but I have certainly talked to him and am aware of his personal situation and satisfied myself that he, in fact, is receiving a disabili ty income at this point in time. This is all part of the backdrop of the responsibility for this position. So it is a mix. I want efficiency, I want clarity, I want directness, and yet you still have to have the open door and the soft, compassionate touch in order to deal with the members of the public who understandably are often in positions of grieving. Mr. Reid: Well, I am just trying to get an understanding here for my colleague.

When she becomes the Minister of Labour she knows how the previous Minister of Labour would have handled the functioning of the office. Can you tell me, then, is there a practice in the office dealing with cases that come in? Because I am sure Mr. Robinson in handling these cases is going to need some direction from time to time. Does the minister actually sit down and talk with his assistant or with the deputy with respect to the handling of these cases and how best to resolve these, or do we leave this to Mr. Robinson to handle himself ?

In other words, I am looking here to see if the minister is providing some guidance and some advice into these cases and how best they can be resolved, and perhaps where Mr. Robinson should go seeking out the support necessary or providing some direction on a case file. Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Robinson, and I can say this for all members of my staff who handle any of these Workers Compensation files, they are very well trained, I would say, in the role of what the minister does, what the minister's jurisdiction is and how the system works, who the cast of characters are within the system to speak to.

They have been well trained to know that the minister does not get in and manage the Workers Compensation Board, and so from that perspec tive there is that ministerial line beyond which a minister does not transgress. That is very clear. As to daily or weekly communication on the particular issues, yes, there is communication that goes on back and forth over a particular letter. I will want to know: is the person somebody who is su ffering from an intellectual disability or an emotional disability?

I can think of one person right now who gives me some considerable concern, because just in the short time that I have sat in the chair and been on watch, I have seen a series of letters come in of an increasingly emotional rancour which, in my eyes, as a professio nal and having been trained for 25 years in dealing with members of the public, you can see a pattern developing. I am on the verge of referring this matter to the City of Winnipeg police. Mr. Reid: For psych services. Mr. Radcliffe: Yes. Or psychological services. That is right.

One gets to know the people whose anger is getting out of control, and so we sit and discuss these matters. Sometimes there are people who are just plain frustrated with too many phone numbers, too many files, too many pieces of paper, too many Latin terms in medicine. Sometimes it is a matter of people who feel that they have not been heard. Part of my experience that I guess I have learned in this political process is that very, very often a politician- and, in some cases, a minis ter-

June 10 , 19 99 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 26 15 performs a very useful function to the public by just listening. Often that is all people will want, to come and vent and tell the minister what their frustrations are. They are not looking for you to fix anything. They just want to come and talk. So we will review that on the correspon dence and discern whether in fact that is part of what is going on and what the need is for the particular claimant. You have got to look at it on a very sensitive basis.

There is frequent communication over the par ticular correspon dence that comes into my office and the individuals that come into my office. Mr. Reid: I understand that there has to be, or at least the government and the minis ter and his predecessors have always taken the role of separation between church and state, so to speak in this regard. Mr. Radcliffe: Am I the church or the state? Mr. Reid: No, I think you are the state. I have always found it very frustrating in the cases that have come to me and the claimants that come to me asking me to be the advocate on their behalf.

I assure the minister I look at the case on the merits of the case. I do not just take everyone that comes to my doorstep, because I think there are cases from time to time for which an individual has been through every conceivable appeal process level. The final result is still the same. There is little likely that I would be able to do in that regard, but from time to time we need to have the ability to have perhaps some common and reasoned thought given to some of the cases that come along.

Has the minister ever had occasion to be involved with any of the cases on a direct basis whether from within his own constituency or from outside of the constituency and other parts of the province, perhaps for which he may have had to play a role or involve himself directly in the resolution of some of those cases? Mr. Radcliffe: First of all, my legal practice did not take me to the Workers Compensation milieu, so I can say from a professional basis that I have never had any connection with the Workers Comp Board, at least in the last 10 years of my practice.

I think maybe early on I did consider some Workers Compensation matters, but that would have been more than 25 years ago. One thing I guess I want to put on the record right now is that I find sometimes the correspon dence that is prepared for me expresses principles in a general nature which I choose sometimes to interpret may not be particularly responsive to the inquiry which another colleague has sent me. I sometimes redirect correspondence for redrafting, so that the particular issue that my colleague has raised with me is responded to because I feel that is important.

I try to put myself in the position of either my critic or a member on the opposite bench of receiving a letter from the minister. So I want the particular member to know that the points that that member has raised had been received, had been considered, had been understood, and there is a response. Whether the person likes the response or not is a wholly different issue. But it is very important for me in the correspondence to know that there is substance to the correspondence. Have I been personally involved in the prosecution of any case? No recently as minister.

What I have done is taken it upon myself to ensure that there has been timeliness, and if there has been untimeliness in some responses, I have sent the message along that I want immediate attention and I want something fast-tracked, if say something like 30 days has gone by and there has not been. There are exceptions to the rule, we are all human. With the number of cases that come before the board and are conside red at the Worker Advisor Office, sometimes a file will get stuck and that does happen.

I know of two or three cases where I have come across issues where people have come and complained, and I have actually done a paper search or done a search of the correspondence and looked at it. On the face of the record there has been an unusual length of time, so that has been through staff. That has been drawn to the attention of management, and it has been rectified forthwith, and the appropriate responses have been given to the claimant or person involved. So I do not look on that as personal management or personal prosecution of a file,

26 16 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I 0, 19 99 personal handling of a file. Again that goes more to process. I deliberately try to stay out of substance because I think it is wrong. I do not think that a politically elected person should be involved either from a constituency level because, of course, to me that would smack of being a classic conflict of interest, that some body to whom I am responsible as a duly elected member and then on the other hand being the minister responsible for an arm of government would be putting me then in the classic conflict of interest case.

That has not happened, and I would hopefully be on guard to make sure it did not happen. * (1 550) Mr. Reid: I know the minister is fairly new in his responsibilities, but is there any knowledge within the department of perhaps previous ministers or deputies being involved in resolution of some of the cases directly instead of leaving that to other staff, perhaps referring them on to the Worker Advisor Office. Is there any knowledge in that regard of predecessors? Mr. Radcliffe: Mr.

Chairman, no, there is nothing from the deputy minister's level, the minister's level or any other administrative level, any knowledge of any cases that have been hands-on interference or management or dispute resolution from the minister's office at the deputy's office. Mr. Reid: The Worker Advisor Office obviously has a great deal of experience in what I would consider probably some of the more difficult cases involving The Workers Compen sation Act.

Does the Worker Advisor Office provide any feedback to the deputy minister, the minister or other members of the department with respect to shortcomings of The Workers Compensation Act? In other words, because they get an overall view of what is happening, they can see where there are stumbling blocks within the system or bottlenecks in the process, in the legislation. I am wondering if there is any feedback of communication that occurs between the worker advisors and the minis try. Mr. Chairperson in the Chair Mr.

Radcliffe: In response to my honourable colleague, the Worker Advisor Office is from time to time in communication from the board, the nature of the request being to comment on either practice or policy of the board, and they do respond on some of the operational side. That sometimes could possibly go as high as the deputy, but there is nothing that comes to the minister's office on that.

However, what I do and I am perpetuating a practice that my predecessor had was that once a quarter I do sit down for an informal meeting with the three citizen representatives on the board of the Workers Comp and just talk about issues of a general nature, a policy that they might see going by that are matters of concern to them, service levels, something of that nature, that would require legis lative change or regulatory change or hot spots that are potentially happening just so I am kept aware of the progress of the administration. It is almost like as minister you have the right to be advised.

You have got to be scrupulous then not to get your fingers into the pudding. Mr. Reid: So then the Worker Advisor Office will communicate with the Compensation Board and we leave it to the Compensation Board to assume the role of an advisory council or committee to the ministry on any problem areas within The Compensation Act or any short comings of the act itself. Is that the process that occurs here?

If that is the case, would it not be more appropriate to have perhaps the director or staff of the Worker Advisor Office having the ability to communicate directly with the ministry, because they act as an advocate on behalf of the claimant? They see the problems from that side of the issue, where the Compensation Board looks at it from the other side, and they have a certain interest that they have to protect from the other side as we ll. I know they try to do it fairly in most cases, but the two roles are slightly diff erent.

I am wondering if the Worker Advisor Office does not have that communication role directly with the ministry, why would that not be the case? Would there not be some advantage to having that occur? Mr. Radcliffe: I have no doubt but that if there were something of a legis lative or a regulatory nature that needed attending to, it would be brought to my attention, but the level of communication that I was trying to express is

June 10 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 26 17 more of practical operational feedback from a day-to-day level of people who are mixed up in the system, and that is not something that the minister should be involved with. If the matter is working well, then, you know, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Do not look for a problem to fix.

But I have every confidence that should, as I say, a legislative or a regulatory or a policy matter come to the attention of the Worker Advisor Office, I pride myself that I do run an office with an open door, that they would feel welcome and they are welcome, and by virtue of putting this on the record today, I am making the statement that they are welcome to come forward to my office, if it is a matter of a legislative issue. But if it is a matter of an operational level, then that should be handled by the general manager.

If the general manager does not solve the issue, then the recourse, as I see boardsman ship, is that somebody has recourse then to the board of directors. But there again, you see, the board of directors, I would suggest, has one employee, and that is the general manager. If the general manager does not do a good job, then you have a career decision to make. But the board of directors, a board itself, ought not to be involving itself in the everyday tinkering of a department or of a board.

I am not sure if my honourable colleague has had occasion to go to any semi nars or do any reading on the Carver principle of boardsmanship, but I am a devotee of that, and I found it to be a very effective method of boardsmanship. Okay. Carver is an American and has a concept or policy, and you could even apply this to government which is actually very applicable, but it is applicable to volunteer boards, not-for profit boards, and even public boards, that a board of directors, and Carver comes out with the pie-shaped chart, and he says that the board concerns itself with policy.

Policy is the outer rim, and then as you go deeper into the circle, there will be principles that a board will deal with, for example, that there should be fiscal responsibil ity, there should be accountability, there should be transparency, there should be, oh, I do not know, principles as to revenue source and all these sort of things. But the actual management of the person at the computer or answering the machinery or dealing with the public is left to the chief executive officer.

It is a grave mistake of protocol for a board person to step over that line and interfere with the work of the chief executive officer, so you can liken that, in this case, to government that the Cabinet is the board of directors of the operation, the manager or, in this case, many managers are your deputies, and the deputies have the hands-on responsibili ty from day to day of the management of the department. If they do not do a satisfactory job, it is not up to the board to go in and rectify the problem and start running their departments.

You go and get a new deputy who can do the job. * (1 600) So that is what Carver proposes. He has written some quite extensive material on it and has come up here. I went to a two-day workshop that he did for MAST a couple of years ago, and we employed a lot of these board policies in a not-for-profit, I think it was the Museum of Man and Nature that I was involved with at that point in time. My wife was with me and she ended up as a chair of an independent school and applied that concept of boardsmanship to the indepen dent school and found it very successful. It really works, it is very effective.

Then staff know their limits. Managers know their limits, and board know their limits, and you do not cross over and do the other fellow's job. Mr. Reid: I stand corrected here. A person's job, I think, is the more appropriate term of reference. I appreciate the minister sharing that information with me. It perhaps would be some good reading material for a time when perhaps we are not in this building on a full-time basis.

With respect to meetings that you have, I would expect that there would be some communication that would occur, and I think it would be desirable to have that occur, between the minister responsible for his overall depart ment or his deputy would meet with these people. The minister has indicated that he has met with some people involved with the

26 18 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA June 10 , 19 99 Compensation Board. I mean, the Appeal Com mission has to handle cases utilizing-! mean, the Worker Advisor's staff go and attend, I think they attend Appeal Commission hearings. Because Appeal Commiss ioners also have knowledge of the process as well and can provide feedback, do you meet with Appeal Commissioners as well to get some feedback on what is happening with the Compensation Act as well? Mr.

Radcliffe: My relationship is with the chair of the Appeal Commission, and I have done a cursory-! will not say particularly in-depth, but I have done a cursory review of the annual report of the Appeal Commission. I had some questions on volume capacity with the chair of the commission. I was looking at issues of timeliness, and I wanted a response which I got. Here, again, my concern as minister responsible is that the chair of the Appeal Commission has the resources with which to do her work. In other words, are there skilled individuals, trained individuals that she has access to to form her commission?

That is my job. I have to supply her with the resources. I am concerned the appropriate training be given and that they be handling their appropriate volumes. Again, the timeliness and the quality of the adjudication from a professional point of view is a matter of concern, and that there be clear, unequivocal, under standable decisions being delivered from the commission. What the merits of each individual judgment are is not something that I should be involved with as minister responsible.

But I do communicate with the head of the commission with regard to the overall management and are the tools there to do the job; is there a satisfac tion level; is there an area for improvement; what are the goals, visions, objectives-tho se are the sort of things that I feel are properly the purview of the minister. Mr. Reid: The minis ter talked about overall satisfaction level of the clients. Does the Worker Advisor Office survey its clients to find out-because it ind icates here four to five client satisfaction rating. How do you determine that you have a satisfaction rating?

Is there some information, do you have a survey that perhaps you can share with us or some statistical data that I might be able to see the questions that were asked and the results of that particular survey if one exists? Mr. Radcliffe: I have for sharing with my honourable colleague a 19 97 clie nt satisfaction report for the Worker Advisor Office prepared by Outlook Market Research and Consulting, February 16 , 19 98. The client survey question naire is included, and the executive

summary consists of scaling of the questions, general trends, next survey, performance indicators. The exhibits include statistics, bar charts, corre lations, T-tests and cover letter and survey. I would ask the Clerk if they could reproduce this because in fact we just have one copy, but I would like my honourable colleague to have a copy ofthis. Mr. Reid: I thank the minister for the information. I will read through it. Mr. Radcliffe: Mr.

Chairman, I just wanted to add for purposes of the record, when my honourable colleague said client satisfaction, there is also, I bel ieve, an issue in administration of the satisfaction of the employees, the satisfaction of the adjudicator. Do they see that they are fulfilling their mandate and their function, or are they unhappy? That is also, I think, a very important issue that a minister responsible should be aware of.

If somebody is not right for the job or has changed or does not have the goals, you have to keep in touch with these people to make sure that the job they are fulfilling really fulfills their needs in their life at that particular point in time. If it is not, then you have to be aware and flexible and react. * (1610 ) Mr. Reid: I think the minister must be reading my mind because that is the direction I was heading in. I dealt with the Worker Advisor Office, and they provided me with good advice and guidance on the occasions I needed to tum to them for some direction.

When cases do come to my office that I think, perhaps having utilized the service of worker advisors, or would be best served, I do refer cases to the Worker Advisor Office for assistance. There would be no way individual MLAs can handle the number

June 10 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 26 19 or the volume of cases that would come in, so we do refer our cases there. I know, from time to time in talking with worker advisors, that there are frustrations that happen. Some of the cases, if you get case files that are six inches or eig ht inches thick-perhaps some of them are larger-[inter jection] Yes, a shopping cart would be a good way to describe how you would transport the case files.

It can become a very long and very onerous process, very frustrating to have to have to deal with those in circumstances where perhaps appeals have been tried and failed previously. Do we have some kind of a debriefing process that would allow for the ability of the worker advisors to sound off, to have some ability to influence some of the changes that they see as being stumbling points within the system? This goes back to my earlier question with respect to communication between the worker advisors and the ministry.

I am looking to have a channel of communication that would allow for a free flow of the frustrations and where they see problems within the system here. I do not know the relationship that exists between the director and the ministry, but I am wondering how that free flow of information would go from the advisors who do the groundwork, the day-to day work, to make sure that their thoughts are being heard as well. Mr. Radcliffe: I am told, Mr. Chairman, that internally there is good communication between front-line staff and administration and that there is frequent internal review as the case needs arise.

Also, management has a human relations policy where they try to ensure that the individual case advisors do obtain a general broad body of knowledge, so that nobody gets stuck and goes stale in one particular type of work, that they get a cross-section and a variety so that it keeps life interesting for them. Also, they obtain a wider cross-section of skills themselves of dealing with different cases, different people, different situations. As I am sure my honourable colleague can appreciate, this often can be a very emotional business.

You are dealing with pain and you are dealing with that very powerful Anglo-Sa xon word which is two letters and begins with N and ends with 0, and often, that is very difficult for people to reconcile. So it is something that has to be dealt with with compassion. Management are aware of these sorts of difficulties and are supportive of the front-line workers in this respect. Mr. Reid: Well, I know of at least two situations, and I am sure there are more, where the worker advisor had done all the groundwork and there were others who acted as advocates and got the credit.

One was dealing with the Falzarano case, which I am sure the ministry is aware of. A few years ago Mr. Falzarano, unfortunately, took his own life, was a claimant of the board, and also the one dealing with the survivors of the Federal Pioneer Electric firm, and the Worker Advisor Office, I believe, did the groundwork in those cases as well. Unfortunately, they did not get credit for the work that was done and the success that was gained out of that process, but I do pass on my best regards and respect for the work that they do on behalf of the claimants who come, and I know them.

Some of them are long-standing cases, and they have had success in regard to some of them. I know it is sometimes just a few victories as shining moments in amongst a whole bunch of other black space, but I would hope that we would have a process in place that would be able to recognize their efforts and to kind of keep up the morale, so to speak, in the performance of their job. Another question that I ha

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-5-42b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 5th hansardpdf 42b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e86e7b35b34cfc2134365dd978e41747f4863105

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