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December 16,1983 The House met at 10:00 am. MR. Speaker in the Chair. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Tape No. 4065 Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS ah-1 MR. SPEAKER: the Council. The hon. President of SO'::~ HON. HEHBERS : Hear, hear! MR.MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I have a statement relating to government policy with respect to the very important subject of the 1984 Winter drilling operations. Over the past several months,government,through the Petroleum Directorate,had been meeting with federal government officials and operators concerning Winter drilling operations on the Province's offshore.

It was our desire to arrive at a joint position on this important matter. Substantial progress was made,and towards the end of November it became evident the major outstanding concern was the absence of an adequate presence of search and rescue in closest proximity to operations. With a final meeting being scheduled for December 8th, I wrote and telexed the Honourable John Chretien on November 29th, requesting he prevail upon the Minister of National Defence to see that his officials came to that meeting prepared to assure the necessary search and rescue support.

No answer was received before that meeting on December 8th. The first response came in a hastily convened press conference by COGLA. 9075

December 16,1983 Tape No. 4065 ah-2 MR.MARSHALL .: This was called after it became apparent that we remained steadfast in our requirement :for search and rescue. It must be apparent the response was made in that manner in an attempt to obscure this inexcusable deficiency and failure to provide search and rescue. It needs to be noted that our officials openly provided GOGLA and industry with the Province's guidelines formulated last year and also, Mr. Speaker, revisions government were contemplating as a result of events that occured last Winter. On the other hand, we only received 9076

December 16, 1983 Tape 4066 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: the federal guidelines for the first time shortly before the press conference. The fact these guidelines incor­ porate in general terms the material and information we freely and gladly communicated to federal officials provides little solace in view of Ottawa's unilateral act which destroyed our aim- and attempt to ach-ieve a reasonable joint approach on this vital subject of off­ shore safety. It needs to be noted, Mr. Speaker, that eventually a reply was received from Mr. Chretien.

It arrived after business hours on December 8th and after the - in the statement here it says 'telex' - after the press conference. The timing of the response after the press conference was obviously deliberate. Regrettably, it contained no information different from that stated at the press conference. Now, ~x. Speaker, government has very carefully and deliberately weighed the situation. We have concluded .. ·without an adequate presence of search and rescue we cannot sanction Winter drilling being held this Winter.

Our position is clearly stated in a detailed statement concerning the matter which, with detailed appendices gives necessary background data, I will be tabling this at the end of my statement, Mr. Speaker, and there are copies that will be available for members of the House, not, unfortunately, right now enough for all members, but there will be in the course of the day. But I would recommend that all members, indeed all ~embers of the press, read this material very carefully. Now, I will not, obviously, read the entire document, but I do wish to refer to and 9077

December 16, 1983 Tape 4066 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL: read from page 13 of my statement onwards to the end of the statement itself, which gives the provincial position on Winter drilling and it reads as follows: rhe Province, as I said, has carefully weighed whether Winter drilling should take place at all. Even with every conceivable precaution being taken there will be risks involved. No Canadians are more aware of the risks involved in exploiting marine resources than Newfoundlanders. Fully recognizing this, we have concluded it is possible to conduct Winter drilling.

However, no responsible body could surely endorse this activity if it was not confident that every possible and known measure, procedure ar technique was being employed to ensure the lives and safety of workers to the greatest extent. With the federal position on search and rescue proven inaaequate from sober experience, who can honestly say everything possible is being done to fully protect lives? Since there is an obvious deficiency in the overall system required to ensure the requisite level of safety, the Province has a duty to withhold approval for Winter drilling until this deficiency is repaired.

We therefore put companies upon notice that from January 15, 1984 1 or such earlier period which ice and weather forecasts signal the beginning of Winter drilling conditions until 9078

December 16. 1983 Tape No. 4067 HJ - 1 MR. MARSHALL: the end of the Winter drilling season,w~ shall issue an order to cease operations. In theevent that adequate search and rescue is provided in the meantime,we would be prepared to reconsider our decision. If not, the order will remain in effect, since no rational regulatory agency could tolerate dangers to workers being aggravated by inadequate search and resue. Given that there are risks attendant in offshore operations anyway, no responsible government, Mr.

Speaker,could in all conscience agree with Winter drilling unless every safety measure known was employed to provide the fullest possible protection for human life. In conclusion, it should be noted that government has taken this decision only after much thought and carefully weighing all inplications. In particular,we have taken it knowing that it will result in a confrontation similar to that of last Winter unless common sense prevails in Ottawa and the federal government responds to its responsibility through the recitation of relevant facts contained in this document and in the statement in it.

We have shown how we have sought at every turn,and, Mr. Speaker, we continue to seek to avoid another kind of a confrontation. However, our prime concern and responsibility is for the safety of offshore operations and thus we have acted and are acting accordingly. SOME HON. ~iEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, first of all let me say that we have not had time to read the bock just tabled in the House by the hon. gentleman 1although the hon. gentleman did have the courtesy to send me the report half 9079

December 16 ., 19 93 Tape No . 4067 MJ - 2 MR . NEARY : an hour before the House met .I am sure that all hon. members will appreciate the fact that it is vir~ually impossible for us on this side have studied the document. I did have a chance to bro..,.7se . ··- _ .. through it 1 so therefore, Mr. Speaker, my comments will be very brief and to the point, I hope. We note with great concern that we now again for the second time have two sets of Winter drilling regulations and, Mr. Speaker, we feel this will lead to chaos among the operators. MR. DINN: Who has the best ones? MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I did not interrupt the hon. gentleman when he \-tas speaking. It is tragic indeed that both levels of government could not put aside their di fferences long enough in the interest of protecting the lives of our workers offshore. 9080

December 16, 1983 Tape 4068 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Party of Newfoundland and Labrapor's policy is clear on this matter of Winter drilling .

And to illustrate that banning Winter drilling until safety can be assured has been the concern of our party for sometime past, let me read a resolution we presented to the National Liberal Party Conference in November 1982 which was passed unanimously. 'WHEREAS the Ocean Ranger disaster in February 1982 proved the inadequacy of safety and inspection procedures on offshore drilling rigs in the Winter season on the Continental Shelf of Eastern Canada; and 'WHEREAS a joint federal provincial commission has been created to enquire into circumstances of that disaster and make appropriate recommendations with respect to safety and other matters; 'THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that all drilling activity be suspended on Canada's Eastern Continental Shelf in the months of January, February and March until the said federal provincial coBmission of enquiry produces its recommendations on safety procedures on the offshore.' As I said, Mr. Speaker, that resolution was passed unanimously by the National Liberal Policy Conference. If Mr. Chretien and others in the __ , ··- ... . Parliament of Canada choose to ignore it, then in my opinion they do so at their own peril.

Because this was passed unanimously at a National Liberal Party Conference and we had fully intended it ~·; ould become a part of the policy of the National Liberal Party. The thing that bothers me about the han. gentleman's statement is once again we have two sets of 9081

December 16, 1983 Tape 4068 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: regulations. And what I want to ask the han. gentleman is , Will ~<~e have a repeat of what happened last \Hnter? \olill the provincial government be able to enforce their orders to halt drilling? This is the part that concerns me very much , Mr. Speaker, and perhaps the han. gentleman might be able to indicate to us,either now or sometime in the foreseeable future in this House,what will happen. \·lill we have a repeat of last Winter when the companies just thumbed their noses 9082

December 16,1983 Tape No. 4069 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: at the administration? The federal government ignored the stop order. Now >.;hat legal recourse do we have as a Province if the companies repeat their performance of last 1i'linter, just thumb their noses at the hon. gentlemen and at the administration,and the ~overnment of Canada ignore the policy of this administration? Apparently now both sides of the House agree that Ninter drilling should be banned, but what recourse does the hon. gentleman have if the stop drilling order is ignored as it was last li7inter? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon.

Minister of Social Services. ~R. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I "'ish to make a statement today concerning the issuing of the December social assistance cheques as some misunderstandings have been created by the manner in which this matter has been dealt with in the media. Long term social assistance recipients receive two cheques monthly - one on ·t",_·"! 15th of the month and the other at the end of the month. The mid- month December social assistance cheque was therefore issued yesterday.

The end of the month cheque for December will be dated December 28th, three days earlier than is normally the case,and will be mailed on December 22nd,before Christmas. This is being done to ensure that social assistance recipients will receive the second monthly cheque and have an opportunity to cash it and make their required purchases prior to the long New Year's holiday weekend. Social assistance recipients must clearly understand that they cannot receive any further social assistance payments other than the cheque which was issued yesterday prior to Christmas.

However, the second monthly cheque will be available to them earlier 1 as I have previously explained. 9083

December 16, 1983 Tape Uo. 4069 so - 2 MR. HICKEY: Mr . Speaker, I felt it necessary to make this statement as my previous comments respecting the matter ,addressed to the early mailing of the second monthly cheque , that is prior to Ch ri stmas, was somehow misint er preted to mean that funds would actually .be available to recipients prior to Christmas . ~-SPEAKER (Russell) : The bon . Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY : Mr . Speaker , this is a very great disappointment indeed . The hon . gentleman has given the ,.,.elfare recipients no concession at all . At least the Governm .ent of Canada send 9084

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4070 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: out the family allowances, the old age pensions, veterans allowances, they all get their cheques before Christmas. Now what the hon. gentleman is doing is sticking to his rigid schedule. He has adopted a cold and callous attitude towards welfare recipients. He does not trust the recipients. He does not think they can spend their money wisely. MR. HICKEY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! Order, please! The hon. Minister of Social Services on a point of order. MR.

HICKEY: I know he cannot read because he does not have the statement yet. I passed it along to my shadow over there. I do not believe he has seen it. MR. HODDER: No, we did not get one over here. That is typical of you. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, to that point,I gave the page a copy of my statement while my colleague, the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall),was reading his, and she delivered it on Mr. Warren's desk. MR. HODDER: She just delivered it now. MR. HICKEY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKEY: She did not just deliver it now. Order, please! Mr.

Speaker, the young lady is sitting right here and she delivered it, I watched her, while the President of the Council was making his Ministerial Statement. MR. HODDER: On whose desk? MR. HICKEY: The hon. gentleman got up before his breakfast this morning. He has not seen it. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary), Mr. Speaker, as usual jumps the gun. He does not see the statement. He did not read it. And of course he does not listen to what ministers and members on this side of the House say anyway. My point is, Mr. Speaker, we have made concessions. We have made 9085

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4070 NM - 2 MR. HICKEY: concessions over the last number of years. It is just not made on the Christmas holiday, it is made on the New Year's holiday, three days early, and in fact we work very hard to get the cheques in the mail December 22 in order to affect that change of making the cheques available three days early. The han. gentleman, as usual, does not know what he is talking about. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. the Leader of the Opposition, to that point of order. MR. NEARY: It is not a point of order, Mr. Speaker, as Your Honour is aware. ·- ' MR.

STEWART: The Speaker has to rule on that. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair recognized the han. Minister of Social Services on a point of order which appeared to be more a matter of clarification or at a difference of opinion between two han. members. MR. NEARY: So, Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, the concession is that the han. gentleman is going to send out the cheques three days early.Because of the Christmas holidays and the New Year's holidays he would have had to have done that anyway, Mr. Speaker.

There is indeed no concession and the han. gentleman does not trust the welfare recipients, he does not think they can spend their money wisely, he does not think they can budget. He has adopted a cold and callous attitude, unlike the Liberal Government of Canada, Mr. Speaker, who send out their cheques before 9086

December 16,1983 Tape No. 4071 ah-1 MR.NEARY: Christmas so that people at least can enjoy the holiday season, that they can at least enjoy the Christmas holidays, Old Scrooge over there elects not to do that. ORAL QUESTIONS MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan). Some time ago the minister advised the hon. House that he would be having negotiations with federal authorities, with the Unemployment Insurance Commission and with Revenue Canada concerning 123 fishermen in my district.

Can the minister advise if there have been any conclusions from those meetings to date? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR.MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, on that matter,which is an important matter 1involving 123 fishermen along the Labrador Coast, as a result of the debate in the House some time ago on a resolution put forward by the hon. gentleman who asked the question- and,of course,the government side supported the resolution, it was passed unanimously- we indeed arranged to have the officials of the Department of Fisheries, the Deputy Minister and others, sit down with the senior officials of the federal department responsible for the Unemployment Insurance Commission and Revenue Canada.

As a result of these meetings 1I am pleased to inform the House and the hon. gentleman that the meetings were very successful, successful to the point of getting a thorough analysis and breakdown of the situation, 9087

December 16,1983 Tape No . 4071 ah -2 MR.MORGAN: Of the total 123 fishermen, 63 had paid back the overpayment on their unemployment insurance benefits to the Unemployment Insurance Commission through the means of a collection system; in other words,taking it off their benefits. A further eight of these are in the process of having their overpayments recovered or repaid,again through a payment system , and a further 52 are now appealing the decision of UIC, and rightly so. What we call a Tax Court in Revenu e Canada will make a decision on that appeal sometime between now and the end of March, the 9088

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4072 MJ - 1 MR. MORGAN: end of the fiscal year. So what we intend to do, Mr. Speaker, is to reimburse those fishermen, reimburse the sixty-three fishermen who have alrean .v paid in amounts ranging from $100 to as hiqh as $500 or $600. So we now are goinq to repay those fishermen. We are going to have the payment sent directly to these fishermen by the Department of Fisheries under the division responsible for the Labrador plants, ~,rhich we own and operate.

As for the other eight who are now in the process of paying,we are going to arrange with the Unemployment Insurance Commission either for us to pay the Commission directly what is owed by the fishermen,or for us to pay the fishermen and then they will pay the Unemployment Insurance Commission. And the further number that is under appeal, under the law apparently we have - . ·- ·- no choice but await the decision of the tax court and the appeal procedure.

I would not want to jeopardize any decision because I am hoping they will win their case 1in fact I am going to support their appeal case with the hon. gentleman opposite, but if we together lose that appeal the fishermen will not suffer. We will arrange to reimburse these fishermen as well. MR. WARREN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, first I would like to say that I am pleased that the ministe~ after a year and a half of debate and resolution in this House has finally seen the light and has admitted that mistakes were made but not by the fishermen. So my supplementary to the 9089

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4072 MJ - 2 V.R. N~ .RREN : Hinister of Fisheries (Mr . Morgan) is: Is it possible that these sixty-three fishermen, who have paid back amount ~ ranging anywhere from $74 up to $1,323 will receive their cheques by the end of this month? MR. SPE.AI<ER (Russell) : The hon. the Ministe~ of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN : Mr . Speaker, I want to say , first of all,in reference to the

preamble to the supplementary question ·;, that we recognized our responsibility a long .. -. ... time ago,but unfortunatel y we could not get the federal authorities to recognize theirs and we could not get them to be reasonable on this important matter. I think now, somewhat as a result of pressure from this Assembly and rightly so; if Ne are to inf.luence oeople in author itv that is the wav to do it, through the House of Assembly, and that was done - ~1e bad influen ce on those people in authority with the federal government and that resulted in these recent successful meetings .

As for the payments, if at all poss ible , Mr . Speaker, t.hose cheques wi 11 be in the hands of L~e fisQermen before Christmas . . MR . WARREN : ~.r . Speaker. ~ffi . SPEAKER: Mountains. MR . WAR.~N: The bon . the m.ember for Torngat Thank you, t1r. Speaker. 9090

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4073 PK-1 MR. WARREN: So at least sixty-three fishermen and their families in my district will be excited to know that they were unjustly treated some two years ago. I have a new question for the minister. In view of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that the Atlantic Salmon Federation has made a request, or is contemplating making a request to have a ban an commercial salmon fishing in Atlantic Canada, would the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) advise this House if he has given it any consideration and if he will go along with the Atlantic Salmon Federation plan to ban the commercial salmon fishery? MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : MR. MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. gentleman for asking that question, because I do intend this morning, in about an hour from now, to address the Fishermen's Conference ongoing in St. John's here and that will be one topic that I will be mentioning and discussing, the commercial salmon fishery.

It seems there is a very heavy lobby on the part of the sports sector of the Atlantic salmon fishery, and they consist of a group that now call them­ selves the Atlantic Salmon Federation. I checked out that group to see what they consisted of. Indeed, the total representation in the Atlantic Salmon Federation is sports fishermen. That group first of all advocated a curtailment of some aspects of the commercial salmon fishery, and now of course they are advocating a ban for five years.

The news that came out Wednesday from the Atlantic Salmon Advisory Board - whose chairman, by the way, is a Newfoundlander, in fact, he preceeded me in this position- was annoying, to say the least. I sent my assistant deputy minister to that Atlantic Salmon Board 9091

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4073 PK-2 MR. MORGAN: meeting in Halifax on ~7ednesday. The Atlantic Salmon Advisory Board consists of representatives from all different sectors, the fishermen's or gani zations, the commercial operators, the sports operators, everybody concerned . However, at that meeting the Atlantic Salmon Federation, which is part of the Atlantic Salmon Advisory Board, chose to break off from the meeting, call a press conference and take their own position, their own stand without waiting for the Board to make its decision and make its recommendation to the Federal Minister (Mr. De Bane).

Well, our position is quite clear; we are going to lean heavily on the side of tbe commercial fishery . we · have 4,030 fishermen licenced to fish salmon out of a total of 15,000 full -t ime fishermen, and it is too important to enes .e fishermen at this time to consider any further curtailment. We are not convinced,there is not sufficient evidence to show us that the problem with the Atlantic salmon stocks is because of the interception by these commercial fishermen in Newfou .ndland of salmon going into the rivers 9092

0:. December 16, 1933 Tape No. 4074 SD - 1 MR. MORGAN: The Greenland fishery last yea~ we call it the International Water Fishery in Greenland- . MR.NEARY: Brief answers, Mr. Speaker. Brief answers . MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the gentleman \vho asked the question is concerned because the salmon fishery is very important to the hon . gentleman's riding in Labrador. It is very, very important , In fact, half of the income of the Labrador fishermen is derived from the salmon fishery. MR. POWER: 'Neary' wants to ask all the questions. MR. MORGll .l\!: Mr.

Speaker, o f course, if the Leader of the Opposition wants to ask the Premier a question of the ~P.~~v operations, I will sit down. If that is the caset I will sit down. SOME HON . ME~ffiERS : Oh, oh! -···--- ····· MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order. please! t-1R. MORGA..l\1: ~ r.

Speaker, the situation is that the Greenland salmon fishery is greater than our own fisher y here in Newfoundland with 4,000 fishermen,and until we see some curtailment in the Greenland fishery, until we see measures ta~en bv the federal government with regards tc aquaculture and salmon farming, until we see measures to stop poaching on the rivers, etc., until we see these kind of programmes put in place we are not going to support, in any way or form, any curtailment or ban of the commercial salmon fishery. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. Z.1R. NEli...RY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Leader of the Opposition. 9093

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4074 SD-2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Premier has been waiting now for two days for me to put a question to him and I am goinq to put a question to him now about a matter that involves ships. Did the hon. gentleman receive this morning from the Marystown Shipyard a telegram pointing out that the shipyard is at a crisis stage, that thirty-five men are due to be laid off in January, and, with no more new construction contracts in sight, more lay-off notices were given out today, which includes thirteen senior employees of that yard?

And would the hon. gentleman indicate to the House his response to that urgent request from the secretary of the union in Marystown and what the administration intends to do about it? MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL): The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, did you ever see the like? Did you ever see the like? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: I will tell you, Mr. Speaker, here is the great Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary), who for the last couple of days tried to discredit me personally by using words and phrases that somehow cast a shadow over the deals that were done on the Green Bay ferry - MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the bon. Leader of the Opposition. M...~. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if the hon. gentleman was listening or if he understands the r rules of the House, but the question had to do with an emergency, 9094

December 16-, 1983 Tape No, 4074 SD - 3 MR. NEARY: a crisis, at the Marystown Shipyard. And I believe 1 1-ir. Speaker, that Your Honour should direct the hon. gentleman to answer the question. 9095

December 16, 1983 Tape 4075 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: If he does not want to answer the question, perhaps he can pass it off to the Minister of Development (¥~.Windsor). The han. gentleman has been itching over there for two days to talk about ships and here is his opportunity now to talk about building a couple of trawlers at Marystown Shipyard on speculation to save the jobs of the workers at Marystown •. PREMIER PECKFORD: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : point of order.

PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Pra~ier to that I am just trying to point out that the Leader of the Opposition (~~-Neary), once he starts an issue, how quickly he moves away from it when he finds that he is in trouble, Mr. Speaker. SOME " HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, I would remind hon. members that answers to questions should be brief and precise to the question asked. PREMIER PECKFORD: Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: ~rr. Speaker, we will get back to the ferry system before the morning is out.

Before the morning is out, we will show what the Leader of the Opposition had to do with the ferry in Green Bay and what some of his colleagues did in 1~71. We will get back to that. Now, to answer the Leader of the Opposition's question so that I arn relevant and following the rules of the Eouse, ~. Speaker, which I will do, and which I will respect, not only because I have to, but because I want to, the question of the Marystown Shipyard, 9096

December 16, 1983 Tape 4075 EC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: I am really glad that the Leader of the Opposition (~tr. Neary) asked that question as well this morning. The Marystown Shipyard showed a profit last year for the first time since the ~~rystown Shipyard began. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PRRMIER PECKFORD: It was under this administration that it showed a profit for the first time! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, we have turned that shipyard around and made it into a viable enterprise- SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, :nlease!

PRRMIER PECKFORD: the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) especially. We have,over the last year or two, provided ships on speculation to keep the labour force at a pretty high level down there. Last year we built quite a few ships on speculation and got them sold 1and we are working very hard, the Minister of Development and other people and Mr. T~elan, the head of the shipyard, to continue to provide work for the Marystown Shipyard.

So, you know, I have not seen the telex to which the hon. the Leader of the Opposition refers this morning but I can assure the Leader of the Opposition and all members of this House that we are going to do everything we can to ensure that the J1arystm-m Shipyard remains a viable enterprise and is very much a part of our whole economic philosophy as it relates to the offshore with the development of Cow Head near Marystown to be a link with the shipyard which we hope to get underway next year. But I will refer to the Minister of Development for any more details that the Leader of the Opposition might want. 9097

December 16, 1983 HR. NEARY: HR. SPEAKER (Russell} : Opposition. MR. NEARY: Tape 4075 EC - 3 Mr. Speaker. The hen. the Leader of the I can 9098

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4076 NM- 1 MR. NEARY: understand why the han. gentleman has not seen the telegrarn 1 he is under such pressure and such strain since the Auditor General's Report surfaced. Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman evaded the question that I put to him. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! MR. NEARY: The secretary of the union and the people in Marystown feel that the survival of the yard depends on new construction orders and what they are asking the han. gentleman's administration to do is to bulld a co~ple of trawlers on speculation.

Now would the han. the Premier tell the House if it is the intention - MR. TOBIN: (inaudible) Marystown. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: That is what De Bane Order, please! Mr. Speaker, I am only quoting a telegram from the secretary of the union down there. Of course, the han. gentleman, the only thing he is interested in is taking trips overseas compliments of the shipyard. PREMIER PECKFORD: Another little bit of innuendo. <~-· NEARY: No, it is not a bit of innuendo, it is a fact. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker, a point of order. 7 Order, please!

The han. the President of the Council Mr. Speaker, it is obvious the han. the Leader of the Opposition has been smarting since Terra Nova and he has been testier than normal as a result of it. This is Question Period, the han. gentleman is on a supplementary question, has a right to pose a question but not to make remarks. 9099

December lS, 1983 Tape No . 4076 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: He is making remarks, Mr. Speaker, that are geared to illicit responses,which he is getting, and which it would be normal to get from this side of the House. I think he should be called to order. MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition to that point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, of course,there are not two sets of rules in this Rouse . Your Honour knows that I have been rudely interrupted by hon . gentlemen there opposite, Mr.

Speaker, and if I strayed fro m the rules it was only because I was answering and replying to hon. gentlemen who rudely interrupted me. So the same rules apply to that side of the House as apply to this side of the Bouse, Mr. Speaker. And when I am asking a question I have the right to ask my question in silence. And I believe that is the important matter. Your Honour will realize,observing what is baP.oeninn in the Bouse,that that is what happened, that I was interrupted by h.on. gentlemen there opposite. 9100

December 16,1983 Tape No.4077 ah-1 MR.SPEAKER (Russell): To the point of order raised~ The hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary) was posing a question to the han. the Premier. He said he was interrupted by other hon. members. MR. NEARY: The rules (inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: That is still no reason for him to respond to other hon. members. At the same time,I must say that there a couple of han. members to my left and to my right who seem to insist and persist in interrupting 1 and if that continues I will have no choice but to name them. MR.NEARY: So, Mr.

Speaker, my supplementary to the han. the Premier is will the hon. gentleman's administration undertake to build a couple of trawlers on speculation as requested by the union in order 1 as he puts it, for the crisis to be overcome, the emergency to be overcome and for the shipyard to survive? MR.SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, in the Leader of the Opposition's

preamble before the point of order he mentioned something about the Auditor General's Report. we will deal with the Green Bay ferry service later on this morning, but I want the Leader of the Opposition to know and I want the press in this Province to know that the hon. gentleman opposite was a part of an administration that would not call the Public Accounts Committee together and would not have an Opposition member as Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee. MR.NEARY: Is that so? 9101

December 16,1983 Tape No. 4077 ah-2 PREMIER PECKFORD: This is the''holier than thou'Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary), Mr. Speaker. MR.NEARY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear,hear! MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! The Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we realize that the hon. gentleman is smarting under the report of the Auditor General, we understand that. But the hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, should restrain himself; he is the head of the administration and the business of the Province must go on. So, Mr. Speaker, I put a question to the hon. gentleman, a supplementary question. PREMIER PECKFORD: A

preamble. MR.NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, because Your Honour told me the

preamble was out of order. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.NEARY: I put a question to the hon. gentleman. Mr. Speaker, this is an emergency situation, there is a crisis in Marystown. The hon. gentleman is smarting under the Auditor General's Report. He shou~d put that out off his mind temporarily and deal with the emergency, with the crisis in Marystown and tell us whether or not his administration is going to build two draggers on speculation• PREMIER PECKFORD: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. Premier to that point of order. 9102

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4078 MJ - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: Hr. Speaker, there is no crisis in Marystown. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is trying to camouflage the whole question of his involvement, and the government that he was a

part in,in how they started the Green Bay ferry service. Now he is trying to do it by covering it up and talking about a crisis in Marystown. The Leader of the Opposition will not get away with it because I will release the information this morning. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Fogo. Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! A few moments ago the Chair indicated that if hon. members persist in interrupting we would have no choice but to name them.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition completely disregarded the Chair's call to order and I would ask him to observe the rules. MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, what about the Premier? He disregarded the rules of the House ,too. ~7hat about him, Mr. Speaker? Does he get a'vay scot-free, take the House on his back whenever he feels like it and get away with it? MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council. 9103

December 16, 1983 MR. MARSHALL: SOME HON. MEMBERS: PREMIER PECKFORD: run now. Tape No. 4078 The hon. gentleman cannot - Oh, oh! Mj-2 You are hurting now. We got you on the MR. NEARY: You cannot play the referee (inaudible). MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL): Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman, when you are making a ruling, cannot get up on his feet, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: about the o~her side?' MR. PECKFORD: MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Oh, oh!

Order, please! - and say to Your Honour, 'What We got you in the corner now. We cannot play the referee. Oh, oh! Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: I mean, Your Honour has made a ruling and that is a direct innuendo to Your Honour questioning Your Honour's impartiality. Now, Mr. Speaker, we cannot have that without immediate withdrawal.

I do not know whether the hon. gentleman is engineering himself, as he has from time to time, to get named by the Chair, to get dismissed so he can ' go and say he did not want the House to close or he wanted the House to continue on and all the rest of it, and go through his other little threatrical shenanigans that he goes through from time to time, but whether the does or does not, we do not care, Mr. Speaker. The fact of the matter is that Your Honour represents in this House the authority of the people of Newfoundland before the elected representatives of the people of Newfoundland.

No member of this House, on that side or this side or any , side, has the right to get up and make that kind of innuendo the the hon. gentleman has made. I submit, Your Honour, that the Leader of the Opposition should be required to withdraw 9104

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4078 MJ - 3 MR. MARSHALL: the obvious innuendo that the Leader of the Opposition (Hr. Neary) was casting when he got up and made those remarks to Your Honour. 9105

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4079 PK-1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL): Order, please! Port. MR. HODDER: point of privilege. AN HON. MEMBER: order. MR. HODDER: The hon. member for Port au Mr. Speaker, in reply to the A point of order. A point of Mr. Speaker, it was a point of privilege, I am sorry. And it should not have been a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, because there is no point of privilege here. Mr. Speaker, we all realize that the Speaker is supreme in this House of Assembly. MR. BAIRD: boy. You are in the House too long, MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. HODDER: But, Mr.

Speaker, a question was asked on Marystown Shipyard by the Leader of the Opposition. The answer was not given by the Premier, who referred to something that happened yesterday, questions that were asked yesterday, and I have no doubt questions which will be asked on Monday. But, Mr. Speaker, we on this side have as much right to reply to provocative remarks by the Premier as the Premier has to reply to provocative remarks here. And, Mr. Speaker, both yesterday and today the whole rowdy atmosphere in the House of Assembly was sparked by the Premier's provocative remarks. MR. NEARY: He is going off his head. 9106

December 16, 1983 Tape 4079 PK - 2 MR. HODDER: We will stand by the Speaker's ruling, but, Mr. Speaker, we cannot stand by the Speaker's ruling and allow the Premier to break it. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Rus sell): MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Let me say,first of all,tbat when I raised the point of order,that was my right under the rules , Mr. Speaker. I asked Your Honour a question. I did not insult the Chair in any way,through innunendo or otherwise. But, Mr.

Speaker, let me point out,and Hansard will bear m~ out .,that the rowdyism that started in this House this morning and yesterday was started by the Premier arm waving and frothing at the mouth. So,therefore,we resent it when one is singled out on this side _and the other forty-five on that side, Mr. Speaker, get away scot-free. And if Your Honour will check Hansard, I believe Your Honour will report back to the House that my question was a sensible question. It was not an attack on the Chair. It was merely for clarification purposes. And, Mr.

Speaker, I hope that Your Honour will accept it in the spirit in which it was asked. Because the same rules, I cannot help but repeatin~ that the same rules apply to that side of the House that apply to this side of the House. And, M~. Speaker, whether hon. gentlemen like it or not - I know they would like to bully the Chair. They have been bullying everybody else in this Province, they would like to bully the Chair - they take the House on their backswheneverthey feel like it 9107

December 16, 1983 Tape 4080 EC - 1 ~m .. NEARY: and then they ask for the protection of the Chair. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is a game of give and take and,if they do not like the heat, my suggestion to them is to get out of the kitchen. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: I say, Hr. Speaker, that is not the point.

S~re, there is heat on both sides of the House, there is no doubt about it, from time to time, but what we are concerned with is not the heat going back and forth on both sides of the House,which there is always qoinq to be when there is debate on matters, but what I am concerned about, Mr. Speaker, is Your Honour's authority. And when any member of this House, whether he is a Cabinet minister or a government backbencher or a member on that side, gets up and questions Your Honour's ruling - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: - now that is the point, ~x.

Speaker, and that is the distinction. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! Earlier this morning, I indicated that there were some members to my left and to my right who seemad to insist on interrupting and yelling across the floor of the House and I requested them to adhere to the rules. And those rules apply to both sides of the House. The han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) certainly has the right to rise on a point of order and to ask a question, which he did. The point that the Chair rose on was the fact that the han. the Premier was attempting to 9108

, .. December 16, 1983 Tape 4080 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): answer a question, the Chair tried two or three times to call order and the han. the Leader of the Opposition (Hr. Neary) continued to disregard the Chair's call for order. I think that is certainly not correct and I would ask the han. the Leader .of the Opposition to withdraw his aspersions on the Chair. MR. NEARY: What were the asp~rsions, Hr. Speaker? Your Honour just said that it was in the form of a question. What were the aspersions, Hr. Speaker? I would like to know what I am withdrawing before I agree to withdraw it. What is it?

What is it Your Honour wants me to withdraw? Because if I cast any aspersions on the Chair, I would like to know what the words are,and obviously I will withdraw them, but I would like to know what they were. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition, when the Chair was trying to maintain order and to get the attention of the members, continued to interject and disregarded the call of the Chair, which I think is in violation of the rule that Hhen the Speaker rises then every other member in this Legislature is supposed to remain silent. And the rule does apply to both sides of this House.

I am asking the han. the Leader of the Opposition to withdraw the remarks with which he continued to interrupt the Chair when the Chair was trying to get order in this House. MR. NEARY: If that is what Your Honour is concerned about, of course, I apologize to the Chair if Your Honour called me to order 9109

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4081 so - 1 MR. NEARY: and I did not observe the direction of the Chair . But, !1r. Speaker, on another point of order 1 I have to point out to the Chair that the hon. Premier was in his seat when the ruckus took place and the hon. Premier started shouting and howling and bawling,as he did yesterday,across the House. Now Your Honour should get Hansard and check it 'and perhaps Your Honour and I can get together privately and go over Hansard and see who starts the ruckus in this House. It was started by the hon. gentleman yesterday. Nobody is worried about his threats, Mr.

Speaker, or his silly trickery and game playing, nobody is worried about that. But I am worried about the rules of thi.s House, Hr. Speaker, applying to one side and not the other. That worried me very much - SOME RON. ME1'1BERS : Oh, oh. MR. NEARY: - at least it would appear that wa y . So I believe we should get Hansard. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Russelli: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I believe that you and I should get Hansard out and go over it and just see precisely what happened in the interest of maintaining a high level of decorum in this House.

PREHIER PECKFORD: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, now I do not know what the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Nearyt is up to on that point of order, but once again he is questioning the Chair and the authority of the Chair. It so happened at that point in time,when I was trying to speak and the Leader of the Opposition was interferring and interrupting ,Your Honour requested silence . sa that I could give my answer. Now it was on that 9110

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4081 SD - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: incident that the whole matter arose. On a number of other occasions in this House,when the Leader of the Opposition (.Mr. Neary) was speaking and the Speaker ordered silence of me and other people on this side ,I went silent. Now that was the difference, Mr. Speaker . And now we find the Leader of the Opposition,on the one hand withdrawing anything he said,but t~en going on on another point of order - SOl-1E HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Russell } : Order, please!

PREMIER PECKFORD: - and questioning the authority of the Chair and asking for a secret meeting. I mean, the Leader of the Opposition cannot withdraw and then get up on another point of order and start questioning the authority of the Chair again. There is no question that both sides are guilty from time to time,but on th~s particular incident the Speaker asked the Leader of the Opposition to be silent and the Leader of the Opposition would not be silent. On other incidents · where the Speaker called for silence from me, r \>TaS silent, therefore there was no need for me to wi tl::draw anything.

So the Leader of the Opposition violated the rules of this House. He withdrew,~and as soon as he 9111

December 15, 1983 Tape No. 4082 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: withdrew he got up on another point of order questioning the authority of the Chair and having a secret meeting with the Speaker to see whether the rules of the House are being carried out properly or not. That is up to the Speaker.And that point of order is questioning the authority of the Chair. MR. NEARY: of order. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition to that point of order. Mr. Speaker, to that point The hon. the Leader of the MR.

NEARY: Let me remind hon. gentlemen that it would not be the first time,and it will not be the last, when members of this House get together with the Speaker to talk over certain. rulinqs that are made. in the ~=o.use, to tg.lk over matters relating to the House. It is not the first time. I had occasion recently, if Your Honour will remember, to go to Your Honour about a ruling and we both came to a conclusion; and I would not want to embarrass the Chair by saying what it is,but we have that right.

It is our privilege and it is our duty to go to the Speaker whenever we think there is something not going right in the House or we want to question something. That is our right and privilege. It is not a secret meeting,. it is a matter of courtesy. These matters are held confidential because nobody wants to embarrass the Chair, Thatis why I am suggesting to Your Honour that we get Hansard and that Your Honour and I sit down in the office and go over the events of what happened today.

And I believe the Hansard will show that the han. gentleman had finished his question, was sitting in his seat, sniping and threateninq the Opposition, Mr. Speaker. MR •. HODDER: That is right. MR. NEARY: And that is what caused me to get up on my first point of order. g 11 2

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4082 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The point of order originally raised by the han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is not a valid point of order as such. Certainly all members of this han. House,if they need to consult with the Speaker for anything,that is their right and their privilege. If after examining the Hansardof today I feel there is a need to get together with the han. Leader of the Opposition,or any other member for that matter 1 pertainly the Chair will be prepared to do that. Having said all that, the time for the Question Period is now over.

PRESENTING REPORTS OF STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han.· the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, in accordance with

section 18 of the Public service Commission Act 1I have the pleasure of tabling the annual report of the Commission for the period endinq April 1, 1982 to March 31, 1983. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! The han. the Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, Your Honour just finished ruling that the same rules apply to that side of the House that apply to this side. The han. Premier is making threats across the floor of the House, 9113

December 16, 1983 Tape 4083 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, making veiled threats. Now, I ask Your Honour to enforce the rules as far as that side of the House is concerned. PREMIER PECKFORD: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russ ell) : The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I did not make any threats across the House~ I just said to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) that he was scared and afraid to ask a question on the ferry service this morning during Question Period, and that is true, Mr. Speaker, he is afraid. SOME HON. MELV'.BERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Oh, oh!

Is that in order, Mr. Speaker? Order, please! Order, please! To that point of order, as I have said a few times this morning, the members to my right and to my left do not have the right to interrupt an han. member when he is speaking. The Chair was in the process of going down through the routine business of the day, called for reports being presented and was tr ying to recognize if any han. minister had a report to present, and certainly did not hear,the han. the Premier or anyone else, any specific remarks that were made. 0 0 0 MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Public Works. MR.

YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, before you go into Orders of the Day, yesterday - MR. NEARY : On a point of order, ~x. Speaker. 9114

December 16, 1983 Tape 4083 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! The hen. the Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is the hon. gentleman making a point of order or is he making a Ministerial Statement or - MR. YOUNG: MR. SPEAKER: Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: No, no. I recognized the qon. the Mr. Speaker, yesterday while I was absent from the House, the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) raised a point of order that I made an unparliamentary remark about the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I did say, Mr.

Speaker, that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was a crook 1and he admitted it, but I withdraw the remark, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: No, !o'!...r. Speaker, that is not a withdrawal. Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman said that he said I was a crook and I admitted it. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is not a withdrawal. The hon. gentleman should be directed to withdraw, Mr. Speaker, and apologize to the House for his unparliamentary language. MR. HICKEY: He apologized! 1<7hat do you want? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. YOUNG: ~tr. Speaker, I said I would withdraw and apologize but, Mr.

Speaker, Hansard reads : "Mr. Young: You were a crook then and you are a crook now. Mr. Neary: Yes, andthe hon. gentleman used to come over to Bell Island scrounging. " SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. YOUNG: I withdraw these remarks, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! 9115

December l6, 1983 Tape 4083 EC - 3 MR . NEARY : What a crowd of clowns ! The Muppet Show! MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please ! Order, please ! Before ,.,e proceed , I would like to welcome to the galleries a group of thirty-five Grade XI students from Roncalli Central High School with their teachers, Mr. Tom Moore and Mr . Paul Stacey . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear , hear ! 9116

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4084 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Before we proceed 1 yesterday aternoon the han. Leader of the Opposition (~r. Neary) raised a point of order respecting the hon. President of the Council's (Mr. Marshall) distinction between House privileges and personal privileges. In order to set the record straight 1 I have examined the authorities and have determined that the matter relating to privilege is succinctly set forth in Beauchesne, paragraph 16, page 11, and it is further borne out in Erskine May, the 19th edition, pages 346 and 347~ I think that one sentence in that

section is worth reading: "The right of making complaint of a breach of privilege is open to any member of -the House 1and 1even if an individual member alone is affected 1 it is not confined to that member". It follows from the statements of these authorities that,when a member rise~"on a point of privilege, no other member may rise on any matter that claims to supersede that point of privilege.

The Chair may only entertain one point of privilege at a time, only the Speaker may intervene in a member's presentation when he is of the opinion that he has heard sufficient to rule whether a prima facie case has been establishe0 ORDERS OF THE DAY On motion, the following bills read a third time, ordered passed and their titles be as on the Order Paper: Control Act, 1973". "An Act To Amend The Liquor (.Bill No. 58)_. ''An Act To Amend Th_e Income Tax Act", (.Bill No._ 55)_.

"An Act To Amend The Gasoline Tax Act,_ 19_78 (No. 21". (Bill No. 84L "An Act To Amend The Income Tax Savings Plans Act". (_Bill No. 61). 9117 "

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 41J84 SD - 2 "An Act To Amend The Solemnization Of t-1arriage Act". (Bill No. 78) . "An Act To Amend The Regulations Of Mines Act" . (Bill No. 17). "An Act To Amend The Occupationa l Health And Safety Act". lBill No . 16) . "l>.n Act To Amend The Labour Relations Act, 1977". (Bill No . 15). "An Act To Repeal Certain Obsolete And Spent Statutes". (Bill No . 27). "An Act To Amend The Newfo undland Human Rights Code". (Bill No . 79) . "An Act Respecting Defamation". (.Bill No. 70) . "An Act To .ll.mend The Ne \o~foundland And Labrador Housing Corporation Act" . (~ill No. 4). "An Act To Amend The Livestock (Health) Act". ~ill No . 22). g 11 8

December 16, 1983 Tape 4085 PK - 1 A bill, "An Act To Amend The Natural Products Marketing Act, 1973". (Bill No. 23). "' A bill, "An Act To Amend The Newfoutidland Public Service Commission Act, 1973". (Bill No. 21). A bill, "An Act To Amend The Fishing Ships (Bounties) Act". (Bill No. 8)·. A bill, "An Act To Amend The Status Of Women Advisory Council Act". (Bill No. 20). City Of Corner Brook Act". St. John's Assessment Act". A bill, "An Act To Amend The (Bill No. 19). A bill, "An Act To Amend The (Bill No. 20). A bill, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Public Works And Services Act, 1973". (Bill No. 32).

The Municipal Grants Act". A bill, "An Act To Amend (Bill No. 52) On motion, second reading, a bill, "An Act To Amend Certain Acts Respecting Government Departments To Provide The Power For Ministers To Enter Into Agreements Subject To Specified Terms And Conditions". (Bill No. 19). MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Well, Mr. Speaker, this bill says it all in the title. There is no need for me to go into it in any great detail.

I think the hon. members of the Opposition who had a chance to puruse this act will see what we are trying to do is streamline and make government a bit more efficient. And what we are saying is that on certain terms and conditions the ministers may enter into an agreement, and that is all it says,rather than have everything come to the Lieutenant- 9119

December 16, 1983 Tape 4085 PK - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Governor in Council or to Cabinet. What is proposed here is to introduce this piece of legislation amending a number of other acts deali ng with the various departments of government so that ministers will be able to now enter into certain agreements subje ct to terms and conditions that would be laid down by the Lieutenant -Governor in Council . So, Mr. Speaker, it is a pretty straightforward housekeeping bill \"hich tries to streamline the operations of the government, I move second reading. MR . SPEAI<ER (Aylward): The hon . Leader of the Opposition . MR .

NEARY : Mr. Speaker, no wonder the ministers get up and in a casual manner introduce second reading of bills and are very brief and do not give the Bouse satisfactory explanations as to 9120

December 16,1983 Tape No. 4086 ah-1 MR.NEARY: why amendments and changes are being made. No wonder they do that when the Premier himself just did the same thing. This is breaking new ground,but the hon. gentleman bushes it off and says it is meant to make government more efficient and merely of a housekeeping nature. Well,we are for any~hing that will make that crowd over there more efficient but this is certainly not going to do it, Mr. Speaker, this bill we have before us here.

Here we are a few days before Christmas, no word on the economy, no social assistance cheques, one of the few provinces in Canada with user-pay fees; nothing on - - . Labrador and the task force, nothing about Bowater, chaos in the fisheries, and here we are forced to debate a bill that will give ministers more authority,within certain guidelines, than they have at the present time. Mr. Speaker, perhaps the hon. Premier did not take the time to read the bill, perhaps he does not understand what it is all about.

What he is doing is putting authority in the hands of people who could not run a bull's-eye shop,let alone run a department of government. At least when decisions entering into agreements and contracts were kept within the privacy of the Cabinet room on the eight floor , Mr. Speaker, you could rely on somebody around the table having a bit of common sense.

You could rely on somebody saying to this minister or that minister or to the Premier,"Look you cannot do this boy, you cannot make that political appointment, it is too blatant.' Or/'You cannot enter into an agreement with this one because it is not right, he was not the lowest bidder.' At least, Mr. Speaker, collectively 9121

December 16,1983 Tape No. 4086 ah-2 MR.NEARY: the taxpayers do have a fighting chance that there may be one or two around the Cabinet table who could act as watchdogs over what the other ministers are doing. But what this bill is doing is taking authority away from the Cabinet and putting it in the hands of the minister within certain guidelines, the guidelines , no doubt, will be laid down by the Cabinet and say1 'Never again will these matters be brought before Cabinet. You, Mr. Minister, can make the decisions.' Now, Mr.

Speaker, I fail to see how that1in the first place,is going to make government more efficient. All it will do is make government more- MR. HODDER: Arrogant. MR.NEARY: Well, arrogant, yes. It will do that if it is possible to make this government more arrogant. But it will give the ministers more leeway for political patronage and for political pork­ barreling and for making political appointments. Now, Mr.

Speaker, over the past few years in this House we have seen the administration there opposite chipping away at the authority of the House, taking this power and this authority aw~y from the House, removing the estimates off the floor of the House of Assembly. Mr. Speaker, we are getting closer all the time to a full dictatorship. We have one-man rule now in the Province. And , Mr. Speaker, they are chipping away at the authority of the Cabinet and the House of Assembly and they are putting authority in the hands of a crowd who would not run a bull's-eye shop.

I will not go up and down the ranks and name them, but it is so obvious to the people of this Province 9122

December 16,1983 MR.NEARY: MR.HOUSE: (inaudible) MR.NEARY: Tape No. 4086 ah-3 Mr. Speaker, how the - Not many of them Especially the Minister of Health (Mr.House) ,who mismanages, who is a complete and utter incompetent 9123

December 16. 1983 Tape No. 4087 MJ-1 MR. HOUSE: But no scandals. MR. NEARY: The hon. qentlernan does not do anything to get involved in any scandals. Only people who do anything get involved in scandals. MR-. DINN: You did something. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, at least I had the courage - MR. HOUSE: You did not have the courage to resign. MR. NEARY: I carne into this House and I asked for a Royal Commission of Enquiry.

I was the one who asked for that commission and that took more courage than we see today about people appointing Commission of Enquiries or having police investigations into things th.at are reported by the Auditor General. Mr. Speaker, the administration of that day, I believe has paidthe price for its mistakes. Itislong gone, it is ancient history. It is long gone, long departed like the Moores administration that this crowd over . here will not acknowledge and they were senior ministers in the Moores administration, the most corrupt administration in our whole history. Mr.

Speaker, I am very concerned and we are very concerned about this bill, about changing the procedure and changing the authority. I know that things cannot stand still, I know that changes have to be made, but, Mr. Speaker, let us realize in this House what it is the hon. gentleman is doing. He is taking authority away from the Cabinet that has been there for hundreds of years. Now he may call entering into agreements and political appointments trivial matters; he may say, 'Well they use up a lot of time in the Cabinet,' and I say to that, so what as long as the taxpayers and the people are being protected?

But under this system they will have no protection. Can you imagine, Mr. Speaker, giving that authority to the likes of the Minister of Public Works 9124

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4087 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: and Services (Mr. Young) or the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) or the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey), Mr. Speaker, just to take these three ministers? Can you imagine giving that authority to the likes of them? Mr. Speaker, I think the han. gentlemen, the administration should reconsider this matter.

I have said so often in this House that they are the ones who wrote the book when it comes to pork barrelling and political appointments and they do it with a straight face, they do it with their halo, they try to portray the halo over their head while they do it,and that is the amusing part of it. They think the people of this Province are swallowing that. Honesty and integrity! We found out all about honesty and integrity in the Auditor General's report and in the Ombudsman's report and all the other reports that have come before this House in the last couple or three years. Mr.

Speaker, this is the most treacherous and dangerous piece of legislation to come before this House in a long time. As I indicated, collectively the taxpayers might have a fighting chance, that one or two ministers may say, 'Hold it, cool it there. Minister, you cannot do that; that is too political, it is too blatant. You are violating the Public Tendering Act .' But now ministers collectively will not know what is going on, the only one who will know what is going on is the Premier. One man rule. Full dictatorship, Mr. Speaker. So, Mr. Speaker, I ask the hon. gentleman to reconsider this move.

I realize it takes a little time of Cabinet to deal with these matters but we aredealing with taxpayer money. MR. HODDER: He would rather go to the Super Bowl. MR. NEARY: Well 1 the Super Bowl is another 9125

December 16, 1983 Tape No . 4087 MJ - 3 MR. l\"EARY : story . Baseball now is the latest n~t the Supe= Bowl . MR. PECKFORD : ----- I like hockey, then baseball, football - MR. TOLl<: -- ·-- In other words you are a sports fan. MR. NEARY: And the ho n. gent lema n likes rabbit hunting and fishing. PREMIER PECKFORD : MR. NEARY : And I will be in hunting rabbits . And the hon. gentleman will be hunting rabbits, that is right. I heard a man last ni ght, I was watching him on television, down at the conference of 9126

December 16, 1983 Tape no. 4088 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: the small boat owners in this Province 1 who are also in a crisis situation.He said, 'The Premier did not turn up to our conference 1 obviously he is not interested. He is only interested in snaring rabbits. He is not interested in the problems of the small boats owners in this Province.' MR. PECKFORD: Oh, of course not. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I did not say it. The hon. gentleman cannot say that I am the one who is saying it. It is Mr. Cashin and the people who attended that conference. PREMIER PECKFORD: Terra Nova knows. MR.

BARRETT: Cashin did not say that. MR. NEARY: Cashin said that he has not seen an administration elected in this Province in nis lifetime that understands the fishery. DR. COLLINS: MR. NEARY: When did his lifetime start? Well, I do not know. The han. gentleman perhaps is better equipped to comment on that than ~_ ! am. Mr. Speaker, this bill is a very dangerous and treacherous piece of legislation.

Now the han. gentleman will get up after I take my seat and he will argue that, "Well, we have more important matters," he will say, "to deal with in Cabinet than talking about appointments and talking about contracts and this matter and that matter." Well, Mr. Speaker, we used to have a system when I was in Cabinet that you would have certain days set aside for the major items~ could we have a quorum call, Mr. Speaker? I would like to be heard. MR. SPEAKER (Ayl ward ) : Call in the members. QUORUM CALL: 9127

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4088 NM- 2 MR. SPEAKER (Ayh1ard): Order, please ! Three minutes have passed. There is a quorum present. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR . NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not know who put this idea in the Premier 's mind, I do not know who talked him into it,but I would suggest that the hon. gentleman reconsider, Becaus:,l1r .Speaker, the hon. gentleman has a great flaw in his own character in that he cannot negotiate, he can .not deal with people, he flies off the handle too quickly, he is too big for his breaches , too big for his boots.

Everybody in the Province will tell you that the Premier is getti ng too big for his boots. He is cocky and arrogant, Mr. Speaker, and he would rather fight than eat. Most Newfoundlanders will tell you that, that he would rather fiaht than eat. MR . ANDREWS : He would rather work. MR . CALLAN: No, he does not fight . MR. NEARY: Not work, he would rather fight than eat. And he is too big for his breaches, and he is too stuck up . Most people are saying the hon. gentleman is too stuck up,to put it bluntly, Mr . Speaker.

With all his flaws, we =eel sorry for the hon . gentleman that he cannot handle the job, he cannot 9128

December 16, 1983 Tape 4089 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: cope with it. Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman sometimes, I believe, gets the feeling that we despise him or are jealous of him or we hate him. Mr. Speaker, nothing could be further from the truth. Our position is that we feel sorry for the hon. gentleman, we pity him. MR. TULK: That is right.(Inaudible). . . . MR SIMMS: Talk about the legislation. MR. NEARY : Yes, that is what I am talking about. We are talking about competency and running the sho-vr. MR. SIM.l\iS: li<!.R. NEARY: Talk about the legislation. ~vell, that is what I am talking about.

These are sweeping changes. And, Mr. Speaker, we pity the hon. gentleman, we feel sorry for him. He is unable to cope, the job is too big for him, he cannot handle it. And, Mr. Speaker, rather than my colleagues being jealous or envious or hating the han. gentleman, we pity him, we feel sorry for him, as most Newfoundlanders do, because the hon. gentleman just cannot do the job. Now, Mr. Speaker, if that is true about the Premier, as hard as he tries, then, Mr. Speaker, what about his ministers to whom he is delegating this authority? The han. gentleman cannot cope himself. He gets more pity.

People do not blame him. They say, 'We pity him, \<Te feel sorry for him.' MR. HODDER: There is the noose corning for him. MR. NEARY: Oh-oh! Is there a hanging going on outside? Are they building the scaffold there, Mr. Speaker? I notice the rope is going down, the scaffold is being built. I would hate to see them take the hon. gentleman out and stand him on the scaffold with a hood over his head and weights on his feet. I would hate to see that happen to the hon. gentleman. But there 9129

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4089 EC-2 MR NEARY: is a rope going down there, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMS: I wonder what is going on outside the window? Make your point now! MR NEAR Y: I hope I made my point. I will repeat it again. Just in case the member for Grand Falls did not get the point, let me make it again, Mr. Speaker. Let it be recorded from this day forth, from now on, that nobody on this side of the House, and I do not believe ver}.' many people in Newfoundland, despise or hate the Premier, they feel sorry for him because he cannot do his job. Nobody is jealous of him, it is more pity than anything else.

We .pity the hon. gentleman, Mr . Speaker. We pity him and feel sorry for him, and most of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, I think, feel the same way that we do. So I hope that nobody will get the impression inside or outside of this House that there is any hatred or animosity between the han. gentleman and myself or the hon. members of the Opposition and the hon. gentleman. We look at him every day in this House with pity. And sometimes he should see the look of pain on the faces of' his own crowd over there when he goes berserk and foams at the mouth like he did yesterday.

He is great at that, arm waving and fighting! He would rather fight than eat, howl and bawl and screech and yell, rather do that than eat. But, Mr. Speaker, that is 9130

it!. December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4090 SD-1 MR. NEARY: not running the Province. It is play acting, that is all it is. Now if we feel sorry for the hon. gentleman in that regard, Mr. Speaker, how much more do we pity the poor old ministers whom he has under his care, under his wing, the group of ignorant incompetents that he has around him who would not run a hull's eye shop, the most of them? Mr. Speaker, would you, if you .were Premier of this Province, delegate the kind of authority we are delegating in this bill to the present Minister of Health (Mr.

Hous~, a man who has practically ruined the delivery of health care in this Province? Would you delegate to him more authority to make decisions on his own? Would you, Mr. Speaker, if you had the opportunity if you were Premier? MR BAIRD: MR NEARY: I would certainly take him over you. Would you delegate authority to the hon. gentleman and he cannot even make up his mind on user pay fees, hospital fees, even though the Tory Party of Canada has now gotten aboard the bankwagon?

If there was ever an example of an hon. gentleman who straddles the fence, who has one foot down there on that rail and another foot up there on the window sill, it is the hon. Minister of Health. But when it comes to towing the party line on political patronage and on political appointments, Mr. Speaker,they are all experts, including the Minister of Health. So here they are they are going to put more authority in the hands of that hon. gentleman so he can make more blunders and more mistakes. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is only one example, let us come up the line. The Minister of Environment (Mr.

Andrews} - now there is a dandy, Mr. Speaker, there is a dandy to give more authority to . That is a beaut, let him loose to make appointments and enter into agreements 9131

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4090 so - 2 MR . NEARY : with people without bringing the matters to Cabinet . Mr. Speaker, have we gone completel y mad in this Province to turn that gentleman loose with that kind of authorit y? Have we lost our marbles a~l together? The Minister of the Environment UMr. Andrews)~ The Pre mier is saying to him, 'Look, go out and enter into agreements and ma!<e political appointments '. he is s-'tying to the Minister of the Environment. I mean , has the hon. gentl eman gone completely cracked all toqetber to delegat ~ that kind of authority to such an ignorant incompetent? 913 2

December 16, 1983 Tape 4091 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, what a source of embarrassment to the administration that han. gentleman has turned out to be. Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman now can react all he wants. He can be as jumpy now and as jittery and he can chew on whatever he is chewing over there, unfortunately it is not sticky enough to keep his jaws together. Too bad it is not. The han. gentleman has been a source of embarrassment to the administration. Now the Premier is going to delegate more authority to that han. gentleman. Mr. Speaker, how silly can you get. MR. SIMMS: A wise man! MR.

NEARY: A wise man! Instead of delegating authority to the han. gentleman what he should do is give him the flick. It is time the Premier reshuffled the Cabinet anyway. MR. TULK: He has done that. MR. NEARY: No, he has not done that for a long time. He is afraid he might stir up a hornet's nest. If he just reshuffles them like an old deck of cards and does not bring in some of the backbenchers who are becoming disgruntled and disillusioned, who are ambitious and want to claw their way into the Cabinet, if he did not bring them in he would have palace revolt on his hands. MR.

TULK: Describe some of the people that are sitting there. MR. NEARY: There are some good people sitting in the backbenches, by the way. For instance, Mr. Speaker, if I was the Premier I would go and buy a number twelve boot with an iron nose in it, a safety boot, and I would give the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Andrews) the royal order of the boot. Then I would invite the member for 9133

December 16, 1983 Tape 4091 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: St. Mary's-The Capes {Mr. Hearn) to come into the Cabinet. Now there is a little suggestion for the hon. gentleman. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook): I believe yesterday I told the House about my affection for the hon. minister, how truthful and honest the hon. minister is. And that is why, by the way, that we need these matters kept around the Cabinet table, so that at least the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) could say to the l'ikes of the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Andrews) or the Minister of Public Works (Mr.

Young), 'Look, holdit. Hold it. I am in politics, I am in public life to do a job and I want to do it clean and honestly and intelligently.' And I would have to rely on ministers like the Minister of Municipal Affairs to keep some of the other ministers straightened out. So that is why, Mr. Speaker, I believe that these matters should be kept in the Cabinet room, that these decisions should be made collectively and not by individual ministers. I mean, just let us come up the line again, move up the line a little bit to the right of the Minister of Municipal Affaris. Now, Mr.

Speaker, let me ask you in all frankness and all honesty, and I know Your Honour cannot answer me because if Your Honour could in all British fair play, Your Honour would have to say, 'Do not give that Minister of Public Works and Services any more authority.' He is out of his element now. He is out of his depth now. 9134

December 16,1983 Tape No. 4092 ah-1 MR.NEARY: He may be good with the embalming fluid but he certainly cannot run a department of government. He may be the last person in the world to let you down and he may be a little bit witty , Mr. Speaker, but can the han. gentleman run a government department? Can he? I ask you in all fair play 1 do you think that han. gentleman is capable of running-a government department? And yet the Premier comes into the House with a bill to delegate more authority to the likes of him. 1:-lR. WARREN: He must be going to change. MR.NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, my suggestion regarding that han. gentleman is that the Premier make further use of his number twelve steel-nose boot and call the Minister of Public Works and Services (Mr.Young) into his office on the eight floor and line him up towards the elevator , make sure the doors are open, and then draw back, haul back and let go as hard as he can with a good swift kick from the number twelve safety boot. 1-!:S. • HODDER: And he should have the Coat of Arms of Newfoundland on the bottom of his boat.

MR.NEARY: And what he should have on the nose of the boot is the Newfoundland Coat of Arms, God Guard Thee Newfoundland on the nose of the boot, so as the Minister of Public Works and Services tumbles into the elevator you will be able to see on the bottom of his pants God Guard Thee Newfoundland. MR.YOUNG: And you can kiss the part that says God Guard Thee Newfoundland. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that is the proper thing to do with the hon. gentleman. And then my 9135

December 16,1983 Tape No. 4092 ah-2 MR.NEARY: suggestion to the Premier is to invite the member for Carbonear (Mr.Peach) into the Cabinet. MR. WARREN: Baie Verte-White.Bay. MR.NEARY: No, the member for Baie-Verte- White Bay (Mr. Rideout) is being punished because he was a Liberal for so long. The Premier does not want to take him into the Cabinet, he is going to upset too many people. Because they will go and say, well,he was a Liberal and he carne across the House, is that why you are rewarding him? But I would bring the member for Carbonear into the Cabinet. Now, Mr.

Speaker, there is no harm to say that birds of a feather flock togethe~ because now right next to the Hinister of Public Works and Services (Mr.Young) we have the Minister of Social Services (Mr.Hickey), another beaut to give authority to. He will not even give the poor old welfare recipients their cheques for Christmas. Mr. Speaker, we have five ministers in the centre row there, five in a row, and I would say that the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs Newhook) is the rose between four thorns. ~L"I.. ANDRE'\<7S : She certainly is a =se but ~-~e are no t..'1.oms.

MR.NEARY: The Minister of Social Services, as he stumbles towards the elevator1as the Premier up with his boot to send the Minister of Social Services packing,on his way with the Newfoundland Coat of Arms on the seat of his trousers, God Guard Thee Newfoundland - ~1..."1.. HODDER: MR.NEARY: his trousers And the Coat of Arms. And the Coat of Arms on as he is going down in the elevator 9136

Dec~er 16,1983 Tape No. 4092 ah- 3 MR.NEARY: coming up in the private elevator over here in the corner will be a new minister to be sworn in in the person of the member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Butt). The hon. gentleman has been so close to it that he can taste it. He rebelled once but then the hon. gentleman backed down. He had it within his grasp but he backed away for a ·little insignificant parliamentary secretary's job. MR. WARREN: He was so close. MR.NEARY: That is right. He was so close he could taste it. So, Mr. Speaker, these are just a few suggestions.

All the ministers are not in their places today· t think the- Minister- of Forest, Resource .s and Lands (Mr.Power) is not a bad fellow, not a bad fellow. MR. HODDER: He is not excellent. MR. NEARY: In many ways the hon. gentleman has been a disappointment to us. 9137

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4093 SD - l MR. NEARY: But the han. gentleman is not a bad fellow and I believe that if ministers came into the Cabinet with things that he thought were improper, if they were improper and he could detect improper spending of public money, mismanagement and extravang:mce and ~vaste, that he might just raise his voice in protest. And that is why these matters have to be kept around the table, Mr. Speaker, and not farmed out to the individual ministers. MR. WARREN: What about the Minister of Fisheries. MR. NEARY: The Minister of Fisheries ('~r.

Morgan), well, he was not in his seat and t.."lat is Nhv I fo:rqot hirl. Out of sight out of mind. We never know who the Minister of Fisheries is until we see him. -MR. HODDER: He is easy to forget. MR. NEARY: He is easy to forget. If he ever goes back yodelling and singing again as Chubby Charlie, the first song r.e shoula sing :is 1 Am I T):lat Easy To Forget 1 • Mr.

Speaker, so that han. gentleman, of course, not only because of this bill that we are debating here, giving more authority to the ministers, not only on the grounds that the han. gentleman is unable to handle such authority, but that han. gentleman should have gotten the royal order of the boot a long time ago. We have asked the question many times in this House, why is the Premier protecting the Minister of Fisheries? We know about the special Ombudsman Report, we know about the racist jokes - what else do we know? -we know how he interferred with the operations of the court.

Any one of these three and there are others - there are five examples - but any one of these three would have been enough in any other jurisdiction to bring about a minister's resignation. l-1..~. WARREN: In fact I think the member for Burin - Placentia West (!!r. Tobin) should be in the Cabinet. 9138

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4093 SO - 2 MR. NEARY: No, no, no, my God, no. No, a thousand times no. From my dealings with Your Honour, and I do not want to embarrass the Chair, but I believe Your Honour would certainly make a better minister than the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan). MR. WARREN: Hear, hear. MR. NEARY: And, of course, Mr. Speaker, the gross, the greatest ignorant incompetent of all the incompetents,who puts up a gigantic bluff, a good front, but all you have to do is follow the thinkinq, just follow the logic or illogic, I am thinking about the _Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn).

You talk about arrogance- IIR. DINN: MR. SPEAKER (A ylward) : A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! A point of order the hon. Minister of Labour and ~anpower. MR. DINN: There is nothing in this bill relatinq to the !)epartment of Labour and 11anpo• ,7er and I would ask the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr, Neary), if he could, to be a little more relevant. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order, the han. Minister of Labour and Manpower is correct,that there is not any reference to his department in this bill. I would remind the hon. Leader of the Opposition of our rule of relevancy.

The hon, Leader of the Opposition. MR.' NEARY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I was about to point. out to the House that that is the reason . they left the non. gentleman off the list,because he is such a gross incompetent. And 1 of course, there is no question about it tha:t there are other hon. gentlemen there opposite, What about the member for the Bay of Islands ·(Mr, WoodrowL? The member for the Bay of Islands has been looking at the Premier now 9i39

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4093 SD - 3 MR. NEARY: with calf's eyes for the last three or four years, drooling, sacrificing his principles to toe the party line, 9140

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4094 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: bowing and scraping and crawling, Mr ;_ Speaker, trying to get into the Cabinet. DR. COLLINS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : A point of order, the hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, it is not in order for a member of this House to ridicule or to seem to ridicule any other member of this House in the performance of his duties as an MHA, and I would ask you to remind the han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) of that fact. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the han. the member for Port au Port. MR.

HODDER: No, Mr. Speaker, the debate is quite in order. There is nothing in the Standing Orders or in Beauchesne which says the hon. Hous ·e Leader cannot criticize a member of the Cabinet in any which way he wants , as long as he uses parlia?.e!ltary lanquacte, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, I would once again remind the hon. Leader of the Opposition of our rule of relevancy,and there is not a valid point of order. The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In the interest of the taxpayers and the voters of this Province being reassured that decisions are being made around the Cabinet table in a competent and efficient manner without prejudice, without partisan politics, I would certainly recommend that the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) be top on the list of priorities when it comes to a Cabinet reshuffle. As I said, Mr.

Speaker, the han. gentleman has been - -- . --- --- .. - -·- bowing and scraping for the last couple of years, leaving the House !:leartsick, heartbro ken over the fact that he has been by-passed so often,and they dropped him as a parliamentary secretary. He used to be a parliamentary secretary in Corner Brook 9141

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4094 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: to the former premier. They even kicked him out of that, Mr. Speaker. But that han. gentleman, of all the ones that I have named as potential ministers,! think the hon. member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) should head the list. He is my number one choice. He is my favourite. MR. TULK: Who is this? MR. NEARY: The member for the Bay of Islands. MR. TULK: A gentleman. MR. NEARY: A gentleman and a scholar,and he is my favourite.

I would put him on the top of the list when the Premier does his Cabinet r~shuffle which,we understand, is going to be sometime in the ~ew Year 1 if he can get up the courage to do it before the next session of the House. MR. TULK: He is going to shuffle the Cabinet? MR. NEARY: He is going to shuffle the Cabinet, so we are told,in 1984. That will be the New Year's present to the people of this Province, a Cabinet reshuffle And so we look fonrccrd Mr. Speaker, to hearing the name of the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) read off the top of the list.

The Premier will come out and say, "This morning I went down to His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor, accompanied by the member for the Bay of Islands, and I had him sworn in the Cabinet as Minister of Finance." MR. TULK: Who? The member for the Bay of Islands? MR. NEARY: The member for Bay of Islands as Minister of Finance. Because any man who can move a whole community without 9142

December 16, 1983 Tape 4095 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: perrnission,and buy bulldozers and trucks to do it and then send the bill in to the government and get it paid,deserves to be Minister of Finance in this Province. I remember sitting at the Cabinet table struggling with a bill from the han. gentleman the time they moved the population off t'loods Island, no permission, no authority, no approval, nothing - move them and send the bill to the government! Now, a man who can do that, Mr. Speaker, is high on my list of people to be admitted to the Cabinet. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Dr.

McNicholas): the hon. the Premier. On a point of order, PREMIER PECKFORD: On a nQmber of occasions in the hon. gentleman's speech, and now he is doing it again for an han. member here - I refer him to Beauchesne, page 103 and page 104. The hon. gentleman is completely out of order in imputing motives, bad motives or motives different from those acknowledged to a member on pages 103 and 104, paragraph 319, section (3): "to impute to any member or members unworthy motives for their actions in a particular case".

Obviously the Leader of the Opposition (~~- Neary) is doing that now and I would ask the han. the Leader of the Opposition to adhere to the rules of the House. I do not think the comments that he is now making are at all becoming of an han. member of this House, and it is clear in Beauchesne, page 103, paragraph 316 and page 104 paragraph 319 that these statements that he is now making are violating those rules set down in Beauchesne. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. 9143

December 16, 1983 Tape 4095 EC ~ 2 MR. SPEAKER (Dr. McNicholas): To that point of order, the han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: The han. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, obviously is still on his 'downer' since the Auditor General's report was tabled in this House. The fact of the matter is, what I was doing, Mr. Speaker, was praising the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow). I was not attributing any motives. I noticed the han. gentleman was rather drm•Tsy over there, was falling asleep. Perhaps the han. gentleman, now that he has awakened, will listen to what I am saying.

I am praising the han. ~he member for Bay of Islands and asking the Premier to invite him into his Cabinet, Mr. Speaker, not attributing motives to anything the hon. gentleman does or says. PREMIER PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Just one more point on that. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition is really not fair and it should not be allowed to go unchallenged. The Leader of the Opposition has made certain statements about the member for Bay of Islands for actions that he took in moving a community and then having the bill come in.

The Leader of the Opposition has made a number of statements which impute motives to the hon. the member for Bay of Islands. There is no question about that, and Hansard will show it, and I think, Mr. Speaker, that action has to be taken to see that the Leader of the Opposition refrains from doing this. You know, it is not fair . MR. NEARY: Sit down, boy, and learn the rules. Learn the rules, boy. MR. HODDER: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the member for Port au Port (~~. Hodder) . 9144

December 16, 1983 Tape 4095 EC ..- 3 MR. HODDER: Hr. Speaker, the Premier should have his Rouse Leader (~x. ~~shall) come back in again and advise him on Beauchesne . Obviously, neither he nor the House Leader were right yesterday about their spurious point of privilege, and, Mr . Speaker, neither one of those sections, particularly page 104,

section 320 or

section 319, deals with unparliamentary language. Mr . Speaker, in actual fact, any member can stand up in this House and praise another member for actions which they took, which is all that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) was doing, and I see nothing for the Premier to mumble about. 9145

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4096 MJ - 1 MR. HODDER: On many occasions I have heard members on both sides of the House either take members to task for things they have done or praise them for things they have done. I think in this case . the very fact the member for - whatever the district is down there? - MR. NEARY: Bay of Islands. M..~. HODDER: - Bav of Islands (Mr. ~Toodrow) had been re-elected shows that many of the people of Woods · Island are very grateful for what he did. I understand that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) certainly knows that and compliments 11im, because these are some of the member for the Bay of Islands' strongest supnorters. I am very familiar myself with that particular episode,and I see no aspersions, allusions or anything else being pointed at the member. PREMIER PECKFOPn: Mr. Speaker, just one final comment. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition made comments about moving people from one pla~~ to another I•1R. NEARY : Yes, and praised him for it.

PREMIER PECKFORD: No,the Leader of the Opposition did not. - and in a very backhanded way was saying- and look, it is on page 104,paragraph 319, it is quite clear, 'or to impute to any member or members unworthy motives for their actions in a particular case'. And the Leader of the Opposition did that in ~his case MR. NEARY: Sit down, boy. Ne kno:o1 the .Puditor General's report is tabled in the House. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : To that point of order, the hon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, if there were 9146

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4096 ,r.f_J - 2 HR. HODDER: um.,orthy mot1ves imputed then they must be in the mind of the Premier, they certainly were not in the mind of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) • MR. :MARSHALL: It was quite clear. It is in the record. MR. NEARY: l·1R. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : Sure. Order,please! There appears to be two points of order here. The first is the one raised by the han. the Premier which dealt with the second reading and relevancy and I would remind the Leader of the Opposition that he should confine his remarks to that bill.

As ' to the second point, I think .it is a difference of opinion between two han. members. Opposition. MR. NEARY: The han. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, we know that the han. gentleman is testy and he is on a downer because of what the Auditor General said about his administration, we understand that. But, Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman should not take it out on others, ha should look in the mirror and say to himself,'I have done something wrong, my administration has done something wrong and improper and we have squandered and wasted $l. 6 million. I'le cannot blame it on Mr.

Smallwood, we cannot blame it on Mr. Moores, we did it and we are the ones who are going to have to live with it and face the music.' Now,that is what the han. gentleman should be doing instead of sulking and trying to take it out on others. PRE~1IER PECKFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. the Premier. 9147

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4096 MJ - 3 PRF.MIER PECI<FORD : Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (1-tr . Neary) has been on his feet now for the last thirty or forty seconds and he has been saying nothing about the bill that is before the House, be has been completel y irrelevant. Every single syllable that the Le ~der of the Opposition has just uttered is carpletely irrelevant to this bill and he has been allowed to do this, ~tr. Speaker, and that is against the rules of the House and the Leader of the Opposition knows that. MR . NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR .

SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: You know, !-!r. Speaker , that is a valid point of order. Because for the thirty or forty seconds I did not say anything about the bill and that is a valid point of order. 9148

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4097 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: Nm.,r I hope Your Honour will rule that it is a valid point of order. MR. SPEAKER (~cNicholasl: To that point of order, I did remind the hon. Leader of the Opposition (~r. Neary) just a few minutes ago that he should confine his remarks to the bill we are discussing. r.m. NEARY: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. 11r. Speaker, my recommendation, rather than give more authority to ministers, is~that the member for the Bay of Islands (J1r.

Woodrow)_ be appointed Minister of Finance and that the number twelve boot that I recommended to'the hon. gentlman be put on again, the Minister of Finance CDr. Collinsl be called into the Cabinet room, this time right across the nose of the boot deficit financing, misrnangement, incompetence, deficit, 12 per cent sales tax, right on the nose, and then give him the boot right into the private elevator, whether it is there or not - put the elevator down on the ground floor and open the doors and let him go before he ruins the Province.

He has brought us now to the brink of ~inancial ruin in this Province through his incompetence and his arrogance and stupidity, Mr. Speaker, the likes of which we have never seen in our whole history. If the Minister of Finance in any other jurisdiction did what th .e Minister of Finance did in this Province, out the door! Kere they brazen it out. It is a new technique now, brazen it out. Ruin the Province, \>Treck the. economy and bring the Province to the brink of bankruptcy _ -~~c1- that is t~e ne•·r techniq\}e, brazen it out~ The voters will forget, the teachers will not remember, so ride out the storm.

Close the windows when the storm is raging outside, close the windows and let her rage; keep your head down so you will not get hit with the criticism of the people, keep your head down, close the t·rindm>Ts and let the storm rage on and it will blow over and it will all be 9149

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4097 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: forgotten when the next election is called, nobody will think about the poor old teachers who have been ridiculed by this administration. Mr. Speaker, they will remember, there is no doubt about that, they will remember. ~1r. Speaker, so my recommendation to the hon. gentleman, rather than start deleqatinq more authority to the likes of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) who is in the top three, I would say, of the most incompetent - I hate to be using that term ignorant incompetent but it is the only way I can describe the hon. gentleman, r1r. Speaker. DR.

COLLINS: MR. NEARY: DR. COI~LINS : MR. NEARY: It is unparliamentary. And it is parliamentary. No,it is not. Oh, yes , it is. He does not know the difference. The unfortunate and tragic part of it is - DR. COLLINS: MR. SPEAKER (McNicho las) : Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: A point of order Mro Speaker. A point of order the hon. In our Standing Orders, as a matter of fact, there is a clause in there which actually should prevent the non. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) from rising to his feet and making those remarks. In Standing Order 52 in

part it says: "Nor use offensive language against any member of this· House". Now, some of the words that the hon. Leader of the Opposition has used towards various ministers in government,and they are members of this House, have been offensive in the extreme. ,we have been, up to now, really too polite to make much of an issue about it,and in actual fact,we have not made an issue about it 9150

December 16, 1983 Tape 4098 PK - 1 DR. COLLINS: because most-things that the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) says, is as water off a duck's back 1 no one pays any attention anyway. But after you go to a certain extreme,just so they do not become a precedent in the House one has to make some sort of a gentle objection to them. And,as I say, it is clearly written in our Standing Orders, you do not have to go to Beauchesne, it is clearly in our Standing Orders the point I made, part of Section (52). MR. HODDER: Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): hon. member for Port au Port. MR.

HODDER: To that point of order, Mr. To that point of order, the Mr. Speaker, in our Standing Orders there is a reference to offensive language, but offensive language is not defined, so we have to go to Beauchesne for what is offensive and what is not offensive. In Beauchesne, page lOS, there is nothing that refers to any of the wprds that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) was using. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, the Mr.

Speaker, the term ignorant incompetent has -been used in every jurisdiction throughout the world for hundreds of years. Now the hon. gentleman may not like that description of himself 1 but it is parliamentary, Mr. Speaker. It has been used.in this House on numerous occasions. Your Honour probably was __ not sitting in the Chair. There were others sitting in the Chair. Hansard will bearoutwhat I am saying. It is true. And I would say that the only thing that is bothering the hon. gentleman , Mr. Speaker, 9151

December 16, 1983 Tape 4098 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: is that he does not like to be described that way. There are two or three members over there who are upper-class, who are snobs and aristocrats and they do not like the scruff, the lower echelon to dare criticize them.· And I would say that is all that is wrong with the hon. gentleman. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): We are all equals, Mr. Speaker. To that point of order. I will check Hansard over the weekend and rule on that matter on Monday. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. You were jus~ about to have input from the self-appointed expert. So, Mr. Speaker - · ~-2.

HODDER: Who is also an ina:Jlt~Petent. MR. NEARY: - let me dispose of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) quickly, get rid of him, dispose of him quickly because he is a sick man, he is sick, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. TOBIN: Boys, stop wasting the tir.e of the House. I-JR. NEARY: So the thing is for tiE Premier rather than to start - !1R. 'IDBIN: Get up and say something 'Garf' that makes sorre sense. 11R. HOUSE: The Leader e-f the Opposition is showing how paralyzingly stupid he is. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I thought I already dealt with the Minister of Health (Mr. House).

You will notice the ones who are reacting, Mr. Speaker, are the ones that I dealt with severely,the Minister of Health, the Minister of Public Works and Services (Mr. Young), the Minister of Finance. You do not hear any rude remarks from the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook). MR. HODDE .R: The member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) is just waiting. MR. NEARY: Now, the member for Burin- Placentia West can wait all he wants. He can wait all he wants. 9152

December 16, 1983 Tape 4098 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: He just has not got it. He is not heavy enough. MR. HODDER: I disagree. I think he is a good guy. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the member is not heavy enough. He is only small potatoes. MR. HODDER: I think the member for Fortune- Hermitage (Mr. Stewart), too, should be in the Cabinet. MR. NEARY: He is not willing to listen and learn, Mr. Speaker. That is his problem. MR. HOUSE: Terra Nova s~ how good you are over there. SOME HON. ~~ER ): Oh, oh! MR. NEARY : Tl:iere they are. MR. SPEAKER (McNi chol as ) : Order, please! MR.

TOBIN: I am heavy enough to knock off one of your heavies. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, he is only a light- "Weight. The han. gentleman is what I would consider to be a light- weight and I would advise the Premier not to bring him into the Cabinet during his reshuffle. MR. TULK: What about Fortune-Hermitage? He will be all right. MR. NEARY: I know the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) is waiting for her assessment. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: No, this is Christmas, Mr. Speaker, ·I have to be kind. It is Christmastime, and the only thing I can say is that I like her pretty dress she has on today.

I will be kind with the hon. minister , Mr. Speaker, and plow on and advise the Premier to reconsider these matters. 9153

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4099 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is not a move to make the adminis~ration more efficient, it is a move to make the administration more open to political abuse and political patronage. Mr. Speaker, that is what this will do. Now,if the han. gentleman does not like')ringing '\<·hat he considers to be trivial matters, miscellaneous matters before the Cabinet,the han. gentleman does not have to go on those days.

When we were there we used to have a Cabinet meeting for the important things, for the major items, and we would have a day or two a week set aside to deal with the less important matters, Mr. Speaker, and some days there was quite an agenda of so-called trivial matters. Mr. Speaker, I cannot remember a day when there was nothing on the agenda of Cabinet. PREMIER PECKFORD: There were things that were not on the agenda that ~at approved verbally without any research or any study, done for political reasons without any documentation or planning,done for little political deals. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, when I was in the Cabinet I do not know of one example 1 was made without Cabinet approval. SOME HON. MEl<lBERS : Oh, oh! where any deal MR. NEARY: Now,that is more than I can say about the Cabinet that the han. gentleman was a member of. The han. gentleman was a member of a Cabinet that did all kinds of wheeling and dealing and made all kinds of decisions - and the han. gentleman,by the way,had to reverse some of these decisions when he became Premier, for instance, giving the former Premier back his house. The previous administration had taken a decisior. to give Mr.

Smallwood back his house for the same price that he sold it to the government, for one dollar. ~·r. r~oores decided to do that. MR. TOBIN: Tell us abou the day (inaudible) . 9154

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4099 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, at least he owned it. The present Premier could not do that,but he gave himself a rent-free apartment but he would not give the former Premier back his house for one dollar, Mr. Speaker, he reversed that decision. So you talk about making decisions, Cabinet decisions, Mr. Speaker. PREMIER PECKFORD: Do you want to get into the hol.·se bit? 11R. l'TEARY: Yes, I would be glad to. If the han. _gentlemm wants to, trot it all rmt. You know, if the hon. gentle!!lffil \'lailts to go back over the Smallwood years let us go back over them.

PPBMIER PECKFOP-D: lfR. NEARY: MR. CARTER: You are the one who is talking about them. No, I am talking about decisions you trade. ~x. Speaker, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER (HcNicholas) : Order, please! The han. the member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: ·I think this is a fairly important point of order. I would like the Leader of the Opposition (Hr. Neary) to explain if he can how Premier Smallwood managed to build such a luxurious house upon his stated income as Premier of this Province which,if my memory serves me correctly,was something around $20,000 per year.

Would he care to answer that while he is on that subject? MR. ANDREWS: on Roaches Line. MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: And how he got all that land The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman wants the answer, what he should do is go down in the Registry Office, search the registry and he will find out for himself if,indeed,it is any of his business. But the fact of the matter is, that house was turned over . 915 5

December 16, 1983 Tape No . 4099 !1.1 - 3 M..~. NEARY : to the 9eople of the Province for one dollar. MR. CARTER : t-ffi. t·7AR?~l : But hot., was it built? !·7i th hammers and nails. l>lR. NEARY: It was built with hammers and nails and sa;.Ts and chisels and planes and levels, l1r . Speaker, and brick and mortar and cement and felt . ?1R. ANDRENS : MR. SP EAKER (McNicholas) : of order? MR. NEARY: Speaker. HR . SP~R: ~·7here did it come from? Order, J?lease ! Are you speaking on this point No, you had better rule on it, rr. I must rule there is no 90i nt of order . It is a matter of a difference of opinion.

Opposition . ~tR. NEARY: The hon . the Leader of the So, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman can sni pe all he wants about 9156

December 16, 1983 Tape 4100 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: Cabinet decisions being made, no documentation, but ~.,rhat about that one made by the previous administration to give Mr. Smallwood back his house for one dollar? - and in comes the brave Horatio, the White Knight, and says, 'No, hold it now, reverse that decision. I will give myself a house,and a rent-free apartment', the first time in Newfoundland's history, 'but I do not want Mr. Smallwood, the former Premier, to own his own horne'. PREMIER PECKFORD: I will do it up front, I will not go through the back door. MR. NEARY: I see, do it up front, is that so?

PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. NEARY: was. PREMIER PECKFORD: Honest and O!.'en l'l'Overnment. Yes, we know how up front that Yes. MR. NEARY: As long as you come out and announce that it is supposed to be right, that is supposed to portray honesty and integrity._ PREMIER PECKFORD: ~ honesty. MR. NEARY: Yes. r.·Jhat the Premier is saying about this bill is, 'As long as the ministers come and tell me they are entering into agreements for political purposes - PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. NEARY: That you cannot deny. Cannot deny what? Open and honest anc straightforward. Open and honest.

You cannot be any more open and honest than to give a house to the people of the Province, at least he did not take one away or did not give himself a rent-free apartment. 9157

December 16, 1983 Tape 4100 EC - 2 MR. TOBIN: You had better be careful now while you are up there talking about houses. MR. NEARY: about houses. HR. YOUNG: MR. NEARY: l1.R. YOUNG: MR. NEARY: MR. YOUNG: M..tz. HOUSE: Yes, do not worry, I can talk Tell us h0\-7 the labour Nas done en yours. Yes, do you want to know? Yes. Dollars and cents. Tell us who did it. Tell us all about it. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. McNicholas): Order, please! MR. NEARY: The Premier is the one who talks about innuendo and libel and slander. I hope the han. gentle­ man is listening to what is coming from the lips of his ministers. l.ffi..

YOUNG: It is true what I am saying. MR. NEARY: It is not true, }rr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it could only come from the lips of somebody who was seriously ill, sick, Hr. Speaker, someone who has been sniffing too much embalming fluid. MR. SIMMS: MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. On a point of order, the han. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I regret very much having to rise on this point of order. I think we are all going to be seriously ill and sick if we have to listen to much more of what the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) has had to say in the last hour.

And I think as a privilege to members of this House, we have every right to know how much time the han. the Leader of the Opposition has remaining in his speaking time, because if we have to put up with any more of that, maybe we have time to leave. 9158

December 16, 1983 Tape 4100 EC - 3 MR. HODDER: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. McNicholas): To that point of order, the han. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: I am not sure that I want to sit in this Legislature very much longer when I hear members on the other side asking the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) about his own personal horne. I mean, if that is the kind of dirt that is going to be thrown back and forth, I have some dirt to throw. I know things about every member over there as perhaps they know about me.

Questions were asked in this House about the Auditor General's report and the Premier reached down to - if he has the dirt, throw it out. He has been threatening to throw it out, throw it out! MR. SIMMS: That has nothing to do with the point of order! The point fa order is how much time is left? MR. HODDER: Because, Hr. Speaker, the level of debate in this House has been so low that when we start casting personal aspers .ions - you know, are we going to go back to the days of Sir Richard Squires? Are we going to go back to the days of Sir Robert Bond?

Or do we go back to the Tories who voted away democracy in this Province and put us into the 'dirty thirties'? Is that the type of debate we are having here, when we ask questions of the government about the Green Bay ferry? Are those the tactics? MR. NEARY: Right on! MR. HODDER: And the press are so stupid, Mr. Speaker, as to play it up, something that happened twelve years ago. SOME HON. .MEMBERS : Oh, oh! 9159

necemBer 16 1 1gs3 Tape 4100 EC ~ 4 ·.MR. SPEAKER CDr. McNicholas}_: Order, please! -.MR. YOUNG: Mr . Speaker. -.MR. SPE1\.KER; Public Works. MR. YOUNG: The hon. the Minister of I would like to speak also to that point of order, especially the point raised by the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder). Mr. Speaker, I can sit here and the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) can attack my private business, attack me personally, and when I slap something across the floor which I know is true, Mr. Speaker, he gets upset. If he is living in a "glass house, I do not think, Hr. Speaker, he should throw stones.

Because he is going to get dirt from me, and lots of it! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, to that point of .order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, in the first instance, the hon. gentleman is wrong, because I did not attack his personal life. AN HON. MEHBER: Yes, you did. MR. NEARY: And, Mr. Speaker, in the second place, what I was talking about was the Premier's apartment and the Premier's house, whichare being paid for out of taxpayer money. PREMIER PECKFORD: Honestly and up front. MR.

NEARY: Honestly, U:r? front! As long as you announce it, the hon. gentleman thinks that is okay. 9160

December 16, 1983 Tape No.4101 SD - 1 ~1R. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, let me say this to hon. gentlemen, if I was the hon. the Premier I would make a note of where the dirt started to come from this morning across the House. Now,if the han. gentleman wants his ministers - PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. NEARY: gentleman's - You ~11ere up speaking- and - I ·was talking about the hon.

PREMIER PECKFORD: - accusinq evervbody. ~-~- NEARY: Now if the hon. gentleman wants that level of debate to continue let him say so and I guarantee you that we ~-.ill shovel it acroos the House, ~·!r. ~peaker, like he never saw before in his life. SOME HON. MEMBERS: ~m. SPEAKER (McNicholast: MR. HODDER: I:L~. S~El!.KE?. (Ayhrard) : MR. HODDER: Oh, oh. Order, please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Port au Port. l-1r. Speaker, I just have a couple of questions to ask the Premier.

When the Premier introduced the bill he introduced it with very few words, almost to imply it is a housekeeping bill. But I would like to ask the Premier ,and I would like for him to respond \'Then he gets up, why is it that the Premier would give his ministers or certain ministers the right to enter into contract agreements without approval of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council? Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that the Ca!)inet, once a government is formed, runs the Province subject to certain lirni.t.ations, a!? ~f they were a di'Ctatorship, in a sense, they run the government.

The only thing they have to keep in mind is that they must sit in this House of Assembly once or twice a year and answer questions from the Opposition. And the other restriction on the Cabinet's authority is the fact that 9161

December 16 1 1983 Tape No. 4101 SD - 2 MR. HODDER: they must look to a general election now under the Constitution,but normally, traditionally, every five years there must be an election - five years from the day that the H.ouse sits. So I would like to ask the Premier, wh~ch he did not explain when he got up, why it is that h.e did not tell us Ttrhy he is making those particular moves in those different departments? This particular bill changes the system of government.

It means that decisions that were normally made in Cabinet will not be made in Cabinet from now on, they will be made by individual ministers which seems to . me, Mr. Speaker, !o be a w·atering dmm of the Cabinet system of government ,where the Cabinet is h.eld responsible, \ve heard the Pre...rnier - I did not hear it, but it was reported to me that_ on the public airwa ys last night h.e said something about- it was a Cabinet minister and he did not know what went on in every department.

Mr. speaker f ~rom what I can gather from this bill he 1..rill know less of what goes on in departments if ministers are al.lowed to join into contracts and into certain agreements which they heretofore could not do.

And I would like to hear the Premier when he stands · give us . reasons. why each dep<:rtment, not in a general way but r would like to hear 1.,hy in each department which he has spelled outr he has spell.ed out the Department of Development, the Department of Educa .tion, the Department of the Environment, Fisheries f· Forest Resources and Lands, Mines and Energy, I>Iunici:pal Affairs~ Public Narks and Services, Rural, Agricultural < and Northern DevelOT?ment and Social Services-, 1·1hv these departments are beinq given this special aut~ority which they did not before have, and why is it that I·Te vmuld make this particular move? -- .... - - I would feel much sa fer, Mr.

Speaker, i.f the Cabinet itself is responsible for acts that take place in various departments and that these decisions are made in Cabinet. Then, Mr. Speaker, you knowf the people who were elected to govern this Province 9162

December 16, 1983 Tape No. 4101 MR . HODDER : collectively \olhich is the Cabinet,because the backbenchers do not govern this Province, not as much as Ne do here, they sit and wait. They may have a su qg estive so - 3 role to the Cabinet, perhaps moreso than those in the Opposition ,but at least we can voice ours publicly. But I wonder why it is that he would take awa y from the authority of Cabinet and put it into the hands of ministers? It just do es not make sense to me . I feel that it is in the public interest that when Cabinet makes a decision it is th e govern.'t\ent who made the decision and the govern.'!lent \-Jl:\o ~uc; t lit -'\nd by it, it cannot be 9163

December 16,1983 Tape No. 4102 ah-1 MR.HODDER: minister, sloughed off on a sloughed off on a department. I ·think that is a very serious question and I would like the Premier, when he stands, to explain to us why this is happening and why it is happening in these departments and not in other departments? MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): now he will close the debate. PREMIER PECKFORD: If the han. Premier speaks The han. the Premier. Mr. Speaker, it is really extremely unfortunate that we have to, as the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (~tr.

Simms) said just a few minutes ago,put up with what we have heard in the last hour or so. The debate and the decorum in this House has hit a new low, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary) up swinging his arms and being irrelevant just about all the time on the bill, an unbelievable exercise or misuse of the way this House should be operated. It is just an awful examFle of v;hy, I suppose, they are over there and we are over here. It is just terrible!

He said very little that was relevant to the bill, He never talked about the principle of the bill as you are supposed to do in second reading, but , you know, that is quite allright, that is the way the Leader of the Opposition wants to operate. I guess he can operate that way but it is just a v<aste of the time of the House, that is the only problem,when we could be getting on to more substantial and meaningful matters. The member for Port Au Port (Mr. Hodder) did raise them, so any more comments on the speech by the Leader of the Oppos