Manitoba Hansard — 12 December 1994 (Sitting 8B, 35th Legislature, 6th Session)

35-6-8b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Shth Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authorit] of The Honourttbk Denis C. Rocan Speaker VoL XLIV No. 88 • 8 p.m., Monday, December 12, 1994 c ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLA 11VE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members. Constituencies and Political Affiliation ril.uu: ~ustituen~ ASHTON, Steve Thompson BARRE'IT, Becky Wellington CERILU Marianne Radisson CHOMIAK, Dave Klldonan CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste.Rose DACQUAY, Louise Seine River DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell DEWAR, Gregory Selki.rk DOER, Gary Concordia DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur- Virden DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon. Riel BOW ARDS, Paul St. James ENNS, Har:ry, Hon. Lakeside ERNST, Jim, Hon. Cllarleswood EVANS,Cllf Interlake EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East FILMON,Gary,Hon.

Tuxedo FINDLAY, Olen, Hon. Springfield FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Gll..LESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa GRAY, Avis CZescentwood HEL WER, Edward Gimli IDCKES, George Point Douglas KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples LAMOUREUX, Kevin InkstC2" LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas LAURENDBAU, Marcel St. Norbert MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows McALPINE, Gerry Stmgeon Creek McCORMICK, Norma Osbmte McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assinlboia MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. Rive% Bast ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. Pembina PALLISTER.

Brian Portage la Prairie PENNER, Jack Emerson PWHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK. Dauren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet ' REID, Daryl Transcona REIMER. Jack Niakwa RENDER, Shirley St. Vital ROBINSON, Brie Rupertsland ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Gladstone ·ROSE, Bob 1\n'tle Mountain SANTOS, Conrad Broadway SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park SVEJNSON, Ben La VC2"endrye VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan Rive% Vacant River Heights Vacant Flin Flon fW NDP NDP NDP NDP P.C. P.C. P.C. NDP NDP P.C. P.C. P.C. Ub. P.C. P.C. NDP NDP P.C. P.C. NDP Ub. P.C. Ub. P.C. NDP Ub. Ub. NDP P.C. NDP NDP P.C.

NDP P.C. Ub. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. NDP P.C. NDP P.C. P.C. NDP P.C. P.C. NDP NDP P.C. P.C. P.C. NDP

389 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, December U, 1994 The House met at 8 p.m. ORDERS OF THE DAY (continued) THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (Seventh Day of Debate) Hon. Rosemary V odrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I was speaking about the work of the Women's Directorate and the Status of Women for which I amrespoosible as well. I am very pleased with the initiatives which we have been able to support over the past year. We have offered support to Business Women's Week and also the Farm Women's Conference.

I was very pleased to attend part of the Farm Wonrn's Conference earlier this year and to have the opportunity to speak at that conference. It is the second such conference that I have attended I have just been so impressed by the energy and the vibrancy in that room, and the areas that were covered by the Farm Women's Conference are very important to the women of Manitoba in general. So I CODllllClld the work of the organizers for the Farm Women's Conference. I also thank them for the opportunity that they extended to me to take

part in one of their evenings. But I was pleased too that our Women's Directomte was able to provide a table of brochures during the course of the Farm Women's Conference and to use that as another opportunity to make sure that the women of Manitoba were infomr.d about issues of great importance to them Mr. Speaker, we also partnered with Manitoba school guidance counsellors to support keynote speaker, Heather Jane Robertson last year. Heather Jane addressed the issues of socialization of girls and women.

The importance ofher talk really focuses on one of the Dlljor issues that I think are being dealt with by Ministers for Status of Women across Canada and certainly by the young women of Canada, and that is the whole issue of gender socialization, one in which we have taken very seriously in Manitoba. Our Directorate has taken a lead across Canada in dealing with those issues. We also worked with the Winnipeg School Divisim No. 1 to co-sponsor a school-based anti violence progmm called ASAP.

This was a pilot progmm which tmined teachers but also conummity workers in a progmm developed and presented by the London Family Court Clinic. The importance of this conference was that it dealt with the whole commmity. People who attended the conference said that they were so pleased that it actually would tmin front-line workers, teachers who are front-line workers and other conummity people who are front-line workers. They were very pleased that the community itself could take

part in this progmm, because we know in the whole area of crime prevention dealing with violence within the commuoity that it has to be a comnmity solution, it cannot be a solution offered by a single area, by government alone, by a family alone, by school division alone, that it has to be dealt with jointly by the commmity, and that is exactly what that progmm did. Mr. Speaker, our govemment has Dllde a number of very tough decisions, but they have made those decisions according to the principles.

We have taken a very principled approach in everything that we have done, and I believe that we have in all of those decisions been thoughtful of the people of Manitoba. Our opposition is afraid. They are afraid of the future. The NDP is afraid of the future, and the Liberals are afraid of the future. Mr. Speaker, they are hiding in the pasL They are parties who are looking mly to maintain the status quo, and it is this government who looks to the future and who has provided an action plan. We have a tmck

390 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 12, 1994 record. We have acted on behalf of the people of Manitoba. We as a government have created a stable environment in which people can dream their dreams and also pmsue excellence. We are committed to ~esponsible government. We have brought our province through a country-wide recession without the massive disruptions that are being felt in other provinces of Canada, and I believe that we are positioned well now to adjust and to adapt and also to confront change as a positive of opportunity. That is our ~eeord, and that is also a part of our vision. Mr.

Speaker, Manitoba is strong and all Manitobans are looking fur stability, for safety and for security and for hope for the future. That is exactly what we saw in the throne speech. I certainly look to see that other members of the Legislature will support this government in the throne speech and will vote with this government for the very positive initiatives on behalf of Manitobans that are contained in the throne speech. Thank you veey IIIlch. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr.

Speaker, I look forwaid to participating in debate once again in the Throne Speech Debate, because this is the opportunity we have to talk about not only specific issue~ I will be raising a number of those tonight-but the particular vision that each of us brings to this Olamber about the future of this province.

I think it is particularly opportune, because we are dealing with a situation, as we all know, where an election has to be held within Manitoba within the next 12 mmths, whenever the government of the day can find the courage of its convictions or perhaps the numbers in an opinion poll that may persuade it to go to the people. I would like to begin by noting, Mr. Speaker, that it is interesting to note that this government is now beyond the normal four-year extension of a mandate that has been the practice in this province.

They have indicated theie will not be an election till spring, so we are dealing with this government living essentially on borrowed time. I think as I talk tonight, it will be very apparent why they are living on boaowed time, because this is a government that has run out of ideas. It is running out of steam, and it is definitely running out of political support in this province. It is hanging on by the fingernails. In fact, it reminds me of that poster that one used to see, Mr.

Speaker, of the cat hanging from its claws, except in this case, the question is, how III1ch looger can this governnrnt hang on, because they have run out of ideas. Let us begin by this throne speech. I Iead through the throne speech again. I nmst admit, it was something of a painful experience, because I had to sit through it first. This is a throne speech in which for the first time that I can remember in the years that I have been a member of the l..egislature that a government actually Xeroxed 20 percent of the cum:nt content of this speech from the throne speech they brought in in April. They Xeroxed it.

I do not know, quite frankly, why they did not just Xerox that throne speech and Xerox the one before and Xerox the one before that, because there ~eally is nothing new in this throne speech document, Mr. Speaker. For what better example of how far out of touch this government is, let us look at their legislative agenda. Mr. Speaker, we did not have a lengthy sessim the last session of the Legislature. We did not have a lengthy legislative agenda. Now, I have hea1d a lot of talk from some of the Conservative members. They are hom-again deficit fighters.

They are hom-again education ~eformers, health ~eformers, hom-again job CJ:eation makers. All of a sudden they seem to have discoveied all these areas that they are now going to bring in, major initiatives. At least, that is what you believe if you listen to the tbetoric, but how many bills are aJI'laltly on the Order Paper, Mr. Speaker? What do we have? Fifty? Forty? Thirty? Twenty? Ten? Seven, I believe, Mr. Speaker, seven bills. Seven bills. *

(2010) ~Dlber12,1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 391 Now, this government has not sat since the sUlllDlCI'. They had July, they had August, September, October, and NoveiDber. We are into December, Mr. Speaker, and we have no substantive legislation.

In fact, when I look at the legislation we are dealing with-some important iteDlS, but they are essentially what would be considered housekeeping with very few Dlatters of basic principle, very little affecting job aeation, for example, very little, nothing in terD1s of health care, one bill in terms of education which does not really deal with the IDajor issues that we are dealing with. But, Mr. Speaker, this is the government's agenda? Seven bills?

Well, it is interesting because if you read through the throne speech, you will find that the government has not ally had a very llinited agenda, at least two of the bills are bills that we had been proposing in this Legislature for quite some time. They have actually gone and Xeroxed our agenda. Now, Mr.

Speaker, we expect that from the liberals, but I find it highly unusual when the Cooservative Party, of all parties here, after having been in government for six and a half, going oo seven years, with all the resoun:es that a gove~nn a11 has, has to Xerox some of our bills, to bring tbeD1 in to have any legislative agenda at all. You know, Mr. Speaker, there is one ite01 in here which the Conservatives would have you believe is new, and it is this balanced budget bill. It is not on the Order Paper, but it is referenced in the Speech from the 'lbrone.

I find it very interesting that a government such as this government, which has not yet nm a balanced budget, has not even been close, would talk, after six aod a halt: goiog oo sevm years of its mandate, fully four and a half years now of its IDaodate as a majority govemn mt, why it should now be talldog about this balanced budget ameodmeot. I know a JD.JDM of our OlCDlbers, including our Leader, have suggested it be brought in retroactively, Mr.

Speaker, and I find it very entertaining to listen to the former Minister of Finaoce, who is a bom-again deficit fighter, when he knows that he brought in what was the largest budget deficit in Manitoba history. Mr. Speaker, that was then and this is now. He is goiog to be out there challenging the opposition on the question of the deficit.

Well, I find it absolutely incredible that anyone, especially the menlber for Morris, who is a veteran member of this Legislature--{ioterjection] The member for Point Douglas suggests pelhaps he should have gotten a trophy to mark the occasion of the highest deficit in Manitoba history. Now he is talking about balanced budget. But you know, I suspect it has not finished there, because we are going to see over the next period of time, I bet you that Conservative Xerox machine is going to be working overtime.

I bet you in January aod February and March we are going to see all sorts of announcements, announcements that could not quite happen in 1988 or '89 or '90 or '91 or '92 or '93 or '94 but Dlight just happen in '95 if, God forbid, this government was to be re-elected. There are a lot of areas they could Xerox froJn, aod in fact I would like to suggest that if they waot to get their Xerox operating, they can start with our document, an alteiDative speech from the throne, Working Together, Putting People First, presented by Gary Doer, Leader of the official oppositim. This was read prior to their document.

They have already copied a couple of pages out of it. The Liberals copied pretty well the whole thiog aod brought in the Reader's Digest version within a couple of days. They can take our agenda if they want, but you know, I would just hope they would not just do what they are rurreotly doing, which is sort of this promise, but if they somehow were, as I said, God forbid, to be re-elected, that they D1ight bring in changes in these important areas.

I want to deal with some of the areas, because what I like is the degree to which the public relations people with this government nmst have been workiog overtime to~ up with this throne speech. I aD1 just amazed I will say this on the record, that anybody who is working in commuoications for this goveiDIDCnt should

392 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 12, 1994 deserve a pat on the back, if not a bonus, for having to do the most difficult thing possible. What I like is, the Premier goes and gives the state-of-the-province address just around the same tin:~: as the tabling of the Speech from the Throne. You would think that anyone going in looking at the current circumstances might see some difficulties in Manitoba. Last year, according to Statistics Canada, we were lOth out of 10, dead lasL It is a good thing there were not 11 provinces; we would have been 11th.

We were the worst province in the country in terms of growth. Here is the way, if you are a creative communications person, you work this around. We were not only last in tc:IIm of economic growth last~· We had what some people call negative growth. In other words, our economy shrank. So what happens? We shrank last year, not the first time, by the way, because since this govemment was elected to its ament mandate, there have been two other years where that has been the case. But what you do if you are a comnnmications person is yw tum around and say, there is renewed growth in Manitoba.

That is what the Premier said in his speech outlining the state of the province. Well, ~s, we have been shrinldng. If we got back one tenth of the amount we shrunk in terms of GDP, that would be renewed growth. Then you send the Premier off to the chamber of comn:erce to give the state-of-the-province address, you put it in the throne speech. There is renewed growth. Mr. Speaker, how many people do they think they are going to fool with that? We were dead lasL We have been lagging behind other provinces in terms of growth. Dead last. And now they expect people to buy into this idea that there is renewed growth?

You know it is not only in terms of the overall situation. I look at the many things they could have done and that we have been suggesting they do, like in terms of economic development. You just have to look at what is happening in other provinces. By the way, I say with some interest and some pride that the two provinces that are going to have the highest growth rates this year just happen to be Ontario and British Columbia, both of which have NDP governments. In fact, the province of Saskatchewan, another NDP province, will be exceeding this province in terms of growth.

I think that is important to point to because where NDP governmcus have had the opportunity to put in practice many of the ideas we espouse in this Chamber, we see the results. There have been a lot of dire predictions in Ontario and B.C. about the impact on the economy of a government that has a balanced view of the economy, including such aspects as community economic develop ment. You know, these policies do work and it works because of the partnership you can build I will give you an example on the province right next door to us. We have heard some debate in this Throne Speech Debate about potatoes.

The Liberal Leader is suggesting that the government's programs on economic development are small potatoes. We have heard the Tories suggest they are big potatoes. I would suggest that you cannot live on potatoes alone. In fact, I would go one step further and suggest----and I know this is a line that has been used politically before-but where is the beef! Mr. Speaker, you want to see the beef, you go to Saskatchewan. I will give you one quick example, and I have more information on the kind of things they are doing in Saskatchewan.

They have 300 loan circles which provide funds to microventures -300 loan circles in that province that provide funds up to $5000. They have had a tremendous amount of success working with the cQIDJDimity. Do you know why, Mr. Speaker? Because in this country at the present time 23 percent of homes operate home-based businesses. Many people are increasingly finding themselves self etq>l~ either on a part-time or full-time basis, but a lot of those people cannot get loans from our banking system. Here is the paradox. We have a banking system that is making $4 billion in profits.

We have bank presidents making million dollar-a-year-plus salaries, and people out there

December 12, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 393 with good ideas who need $4000 or $5000, in some cases need $500 or $1000, cannot get it. I know people-I can give you an example of a person in my own constituency. He was laid off. His wife was on unemployment insurance. He said to me, there was a business I pmchased. It cost me about $5000 to take over the inventory of supplies, $45,000 gross per year. He said, I am confident I can build it up to $90,000 with ~ contacts and my knowledge of the comnnmity. Do you know how many banks would even look at this person? Nobody.

He had to go to a family member, and that is fair ball, but the thing he said to me is, what if I did not have family who could give me the $50007 There is a whole revolution that is going on in terms of community economic development It starts from the grassroots up. If this comes as a surprise to the govemment, and I realize that they may not want to look at Saskatchewan or Ontario where commmity economic developmentism is a main plank in that govemmcnt's economic strategy or in British Columbia with B.C. 21, which is building that province towuds the next agenda.

I would suggest they look in their own backyard. 'Ibe Northem Manitoba Economic Development Conmissim, which put a lot of work in consulting throughout the North, came up with many suggestions, and that is one of the suggestions, shifting towanls a balanced approach to economic development which includes commmity economic development. I am sure maybe if the members opposite want to get their Xeroxes warmed up, I have a munber of articles, I have a munber of proposals. If they will not do it, I can also suggest that this New Democratic Party would. The challenge is theirs. That is one example.

I just talked about economic development. 'Ibeie is m.Jch more that can be done as well. I notice the degree to which we have seen a mmber of the govemment members finally catch on to some of the things that ate happening in Asia. I welcome that in terms of growth markets. I would suggest as well though too that they build on our ethnocultural links with Southeast Asia. We have a significant Filipino community, Southeast Asian community genemlly. Some of the growth ecooomies in the world currently are in Southeast Asia. Philippines is beginning to grow significantly. So is India.

We have many people who have connections there, including business connections. Involve them in those discussions. •

(2020) I get to the question of Eastern Europe. We met, members of our caucus met with the Ukrainian ambassador when he was here in Winnipeg. You know, there is a whole region there in Eastern Europe, Mr. Speaker, and we have those COllDCCtions, those edmocultural connections in Winnipeg to Ukraine, to many of the areas of Eastern Europe where the economies are opening up and they are looking desperately to those kinds of connections. We have the language potential. I would say to this government, get beyond the idea that economic development only is the turf of certain select people in society. Mr.

Speaker, I would suggest to you that economic development is everybody's business, all one million-plus. Mr. Speaker, at the risk of giving this tired govemment some more ideas, let us move to the health care side. I am glad that our Health critic is here, because we brought in a mmber of legislative initiatives that deal in terms of health care. But do you know what I find amazing with this government in terms of health care is that we have esscotially seen this minister try and hide the true intentions of this govemment in terms of health care.

I have no doubt what would happen if this govemment was to get a majority government. Look at Alberta. Look what they have done. I will give you a list, in fact, if I had time I could give you a list, but I will start by just mentioning some of the rural hospitals of which ~is inappropriately labelled, the number oflayoffs and cuts which this government has put on hold but has not cancelled. In August of 1993, this government annOWlced ruts to my hospital of 22 positions and 19 hospital

394 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 12, 1994 beds. To the Minister of Health's (Mr. McCrae) credit, the new Minister of Health, be came to Thompson, met with people at the community. I helped arrange the meeting. It was a good ID:eting. The cuts were put on hold. but that was then and this is now. This is December of 1994. What has happened to those cuts? What about the cuts to the Flin Flon Hospital, to The Pas? I am conamod because I have talked to people who are part of some of the internal processes, the committees that were set up. You know what happened? On the first go round.

Thompson went from losing 22 positions to going to 25. What would happen if this government was to form a majority government? Why has this government not cancelled those health care cuts? There are more than a thousand position cuts, a thousand position cuts that are hanging over our beads, and this government has not cancelled them Let us deal with some other issues as well, Mr. Speaker, because I found it interesting earlier that the Minister of Education (Mr.

Manness) who has essentially hem the de facto Minister of Education since be was appointed Minister of Fmance in 1988, he talked about the 15 pillars of education reform in this province. But you know it is interesting, he is talking about 15 pillars, but one thing he never talks about is the No. 1 pillar which is funding for our public school system He does not talk about that, because this government has an our public schools twice in a row, the fHSt time in Manitoba history.

I want to say that if the government wants some ideas in terms of education reform we have again the proposal to establish a strong public school system with stroog cornmmity support and not the kind of education vision of this minister which involves the same kind of confrontation we saw from this minister with other public servants, the kind of confrontation we are seeing now with teachers and school trustees and parents that do not happen to agree with that minister. You know, the bottom line with this government, Mr. Speaker, is six and a half years into its mandate it is now going to reform the education.

Who are they kidding? There are many other areas we can come up with ideas for them I would suggest in terms of social policies, Mr. Speaker, that the provincial government in 1995 has got to be very aware of what is going to happen because of the federal government's attacks on social programs. Let there be no doubts that we have got to be prepared to work with our conmnmittes to provide social services in a community-based approach. Once again, something this government has failed to do as we have seen evidenced by its many cuts to community organizations.

You know, I could get into many other areas, which by the way are all in this as well, some of which are very dear to my heart. I want to talk about northern Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, because I am sick and tired of seeing this government for the past six and a half~ shaft northern Manitobans at every opportunity. That is unacceptable. We have seen this. We have seen this on highways. I could not believe it the other day when the Minister ofHighways (Mr. Findlay) had the nerve to stand there, and when I had the evidence provided by my colleague, the member for Rupertsland (Mr.

Robinson), the Minister of Highways personally took out his pen and crossed out any commitment to a surfaced road between Thompson and Leaf Rapids. This was the same minister, by the way, who could not find time to go up to Leaf Rapids to meet with Northerners last Friday but was at the Conservative nomination one day later.

I find it rather strange that they would send this Minister of Highways, with their pathetic record on northern roads, to speak to a Conservative nomination meeting because I can say, if they are going to campaign on their record on northern roads, good luck to them But, you know, it is not just a question of attitude, it is a question of dollars and cents. 1he northern roads received between 15 percent and 20 percent of the budget when the NDPwas in power. What is itnow-15, 107 Not even 5 percent--4.8 percent, Mr. Speaker.

The average under the NDP was in the 15 percent to 20 percent range, and those are, by the way, figures provided by the Minister of Highways.

December 12, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 395 I go one step fmther because I also have statistics. The minister talked about safety. The Gillam road, 280 accidents since January 1993. Cross Lake, Highway 373, guess how many accidents there have been? Three hundred and seventy-three. I guess we know why it is called provincial road number 373 now, Mr. Speaker, although I think the member from The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) is correct, you have to change it to provincial trail. But, you know, it is not just highways that this government has ignored us on, Mr. Speaker.

It has been other issues where it has cut back northemcrs the most, whether it be in terms of the ACCESS programs that we have seen, whether it be in terms of the F1in Flon Crisis Centre, I mentioned the health care cuts earlier, that is the agenda northern Manitobans have seen. Whether it be in llford or Thicket Portage or Pikwitonei or Wabowden or Nelson House or ~son or Split Lake or York Landing, the eight comnmnities I represent, they know where this Conservative government stands. In concluding, Mr.

Speaker, I want to suggest three visions ahead of us, because I do not want to leave out the Liberals in this. I realize they have no northern plan, so I cannot talk about thaL I realize they have no health plan other than supporting the gOYelm• n11 on most key initiatives. They supported them mostly on education. But I do not want to leave them out of it because their agenda, apart from their positions in this House, are probably best outlined by Paul Martin in the so-called purple document, because the purple document of the Liberal Party goes far beyond anything Brian Mulroney had put out or Michael Wilson.

It blames unemployment on what? On what it calls payroll taxes. What does it mean by payroll taxes? The Canada Pension Plan and unemployment insurance. We note they are cwrently going after unemployment insurance. We will see where they go on pension. An Honourable Member: Workers comp rates. Mr. Ashton: Workers comp rates, as the member from Morris (Mr. Manness) reminds me of. This is what is most interesting. They list workers compensation rates. They list employment standards. They list labour legislation. They even in their document talk about the degree of unionization. Think about it, Mr. Speaker.

The Paul Martin vision, the corporate agenda for this country, most of it focuses on provincial issues, and I would like to know where the provincial Liberals stand I would like to know where they stand on labour relations and employment standards. Do they support the Paul Martin vision, the corporate agenda vision for this country? Because I would suggest that is the one vision. •

(2030) The Tmy vision, Mr. Speaker, I can tell yru what they are going to do in the next election. You will not hear the word ''Tmy." You will not hear the word "PC" You will not hear the word ''Progressive Conservative." You know, I am sure the Premier (Mr. Filmon) has a prepared speech, as he did last time. Does anyone remember the first thing he said when he got his majority? A Tory is a Tmy is a Tory, and a majority is a majority is a majority. If you want to see the vision for this government, look to Alberta, where they are savaging the health care system and the education system That is the vision.

Their federal Leader, Jean Charest, has already said that he wants to see Alberta transplanted to Ottawa. Do not let the warm, fuzzy sweaters that the Premier will don in this upcoming election fool anyone. Mr. Speaker, there is another agenda. It is the New Democratic Party agenda. We have outlined it in the alternative Speech from the Throne. We are concemed about health care, maintaining medicare, not Americanizing our system We are concemed about a public education system that is accessible to all. We are concerned about jobs. The real deficit in this country right now is a deficit of jobs.

The only way to solve the fiscal deficit is to deal with it. We believe in fairness. Faimess, yes, for northerners, for rural· Manitobans, for residents of all areas of this province, all areas of the city ofWinnipeg as well.

396 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 12, 1994 I would suggest to you that there has never been a clearer choice politically, the corporate agenda of the Liberals, the Reform Party agenda of the provincial Conservative Party or the people's agenda that can take us into the 21st Century by involving all Manitobans in the political process. Mr. Bob Rose (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, it is certainly a pleasure and an honour to have the opportunity to contribute to this debate, and I would like to thank our House leader (Mr. Emst) and the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey) for rearranging the speaking

schedule so that I might have the opportunity to participate. It has just occurred to me that it is a good time to quit because another four years and I would probably need six telephone books to be able to see my notes. One of the advantages of advancing years is that you aiC able to withdraw from the political wars without causing too nmch suspicion that the reasons might be not damaging to the governing party. Members of the media tend to be nmch earlier in their careers, in other wolds much younger, so when we put out a news release announcing the decision not to seek ~lection, they were mildly inquisitive.

They were humblingly quick to accept and agree that it is certainly time for someone who is 61 years old to go out to pasture. An Honourable Member: ... Harry Eons. Mr. Rose: Harry may not have any trouble with the media either when his tum comes. But in case there aiC some lingering suspicions remaining, I just want to assure you on the ~eCOid that lit' decision not to seek ~lection in no way expresses dissatisfaction with the direction this govmunent is heading or with the capable people at the helm and in the CJ.ew. Mr.

Speaker, I too add genuine wolds of appreciation to you for your contribution to the functioning of this Assembly. I did not do much research on this, in fact I did not do any tesearch on it, but I suggest to you that no other Speaker has had to deal with a minority situation, a majority situation, a tied House and again a majority situation. If there has been such an individual in the past I am cmfident that he or she could not have gained any mote respect and admiration than you have and you have eamed.

I would also like to welcome the Pages and wish them the very best in this experience and hope that it is useful to them in their future lives. Thank you to the Hansard and the Hansard staff even though they have a habit of recording what I say rather than what I mean. I would like to thank the Clerk and particularly his staff as well. Each of us have diffetent experiences as members of this Legislature. Upper benches m the government side have the opportunity to chair committees. In those capacities we quickly learn to appreciate the capable and helpful people in the Clerk's Office.

Thank you very much for your help. I would also like to thank my family for their unwavering support despite occasional nasty phone calls, nasty letters and newspaper articles. I particularly thank my wife, Lois. I do not need to tell this audience ofhow important the spouses aiC to each of us, particularly to rural members who have the additional travel and accommodation details to deal with. When the 1990 election was called, the ProgJCSsive Conservatives sent out a rather thick manual with an explanation on how to win the election.

I never did get it all read, but there was one part which I thought was particularly interesting, the

section that dealt with how the spouse should treat the candidate. Essentially it said that the spouse should make soothing noises during times of bad temper or sulking and that the candidate should not be bothered with such mundane things as the garbage or fixing the lawnmower. I thought that

section had considerable merit and Lois thought it was the PC's attempt at comic relief. I can tell you, all parties would be well advised to have Lois rewrite that

section of the election

December 12, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 397 manual. She charmed her way across Turtle Mountain and the commmities in Turtle Mountain dming the campaign, and at the election sacrificed her own interests whenever it was necessary and sometimes when it was not. In fact, that was one of the factors in our decision, that next she might have the opportunity to follow some of her own pursuits uninterrupted.

I did not know how good an impression she was really making in the campaign until after the election. 1bere was a letter came addressed to Lois from a disgnmtled constituent who started off by saying, it is easy to see and commonly known that the brains of that marriage is yours, so would you please tell your husband to do such and such. So I thank Lois, my wife, for her support and also for letting me continue to believe that I at least have 50 percent of the brains in the marriage. It has been interesting to watch the dynamics of this 35th Legislature from the viewpoint of a total greenhom.

You will recall the first session began in October of 1990, ending in early winter with a throne speech, a budget, Estimates, legislation, and in March we came back and we did it all over again. In July I emerged into the SJmsbine of Turtle Mountain to be greeted by grumblings of: it sure did not take you long to disappear after you were elected. So I tried to explain that in a gove••" •r.nt with a small majority, or razor thin as the media like to describe it, the House leader and the Whip tend to take the .new members, point them to their seat with simple instructions-sit, stay.

Having a dog at home, I tried their tactics. I barked occasionally in frustration. I snarled once in a while in anger, and I wagged my tail in pleasure in hopes of getting some attention. All those tactics received a similar response. Patience. This will all become clear to you in the fullness of time. And it did, almost, partially at least There are still a number of things about this Assembly and the entire government that I did not begin to understand, and certainly one of them is why when the bells start to ring to call all members in to vote, it is a signal for members to get up and leave. •

(2040) All the MUPis and the points of order and the snap votes and the bell ringings in the first sessioos of this Legislature were a product of three things, I think. An NDP party elevated to a position of official opposition with several feisty new members who thought because they had been elected in their own constituency that they were part of government.

It was the product of the Liberal Party reduced to third party status frantically trying to protect their turf with a notion of iJ:qJottance that was far beyond what Manitoba voters had given them And it was a product of a Progressive Conservative Party finally given a mandate to bring about m~ch-needed fiscal and legislative action. To do that without having to pussyfoot through the perils of minority government-and I am sure that problem will never occur on this side of the House again.

As a matter of fact, all the early mmoeuvrings of this sitting of the Legislature, this 35th, struck me as a little bit childish to begin with, but then partisan politics never has been famous for mature and thoughtful debate, and I suppose when political parties elect their players to perform in the public arena of politics, it is understandable that from time to time we do play the game. Fortunately, the early maneuverings of this Legislature gave way to a better use of our time. Opposition members, I say sincerely, we have enjoyed, my seat mate from St.

Norbert and I, a little bit like the two fellows that used to sit up in the balcony in the Muppet Show and pass coiDIDellt on what was happening on the stage in front of them. I think we both observed that the opposition members have become more and more skilled in the questioning of government actions, and the government members have become more and more skilled in their response. 1be dynamics of this Thirty-fifth Legislature have been interesting, but I think-[interjection] Just as an aside, I would like to recognize the member for SL Norbert (Mr.

Laurendeau) who has been my seat mate for the last four and a half years and starting into the sixth session of this Legislature, given the fact that I was sitting to the

398 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 12, 1994 left of him at one tiire and now I am to the right of him. It is interesting that for two people from totally different backgrowlds, we hold remarkably similar views m m>st issues. I have relied on him to explain urban issues to me and the mysteries of this House from time to time as to what we are doing and why we are doing it, and I hope that I have been able to clarify some rural issues for my friend the member for St. Norbert. I think, Mr.

Speaker, that this has been a most productive period, this Thirty-fifth Legislatme, for the people of Manitoba because we have a government that is not afraid to tackle IWch needed dlange. I think there is also room for even more improvement in the productive use d members' time, and I encourage the continued study of real changes toward that end In fact, petbaps it is time to use the same spirit of co operation that brought about the commission m membets' indemnities.

Use that same spirit of co operation to establish another commission d foiiDer MLAs, with help from the Oerk's Office, to set out new and binding rules for future Legislatures, bearing in mind that the place and its elected inhabitants exist to serve the people d Manitoba, not the other way around. Mr. Speaker, this throne speech deserves the support of all members.

It is a continuatim of a solid and successful path this government has followed, and if that is a Xerox throne speech, then I applaud the Xerox machine, because once yru are m the right path, it is foolish to go hmrying off in all different directions just because of an electim coming up. The frustration of members opposite is understandable when they reali7e that this government is not inclined to follow outdated political manoeuvering in an election year by irresponsibly opening up the goodies bag. Preliminary projected estimates of federal transfer payments were quickly spent by the opposition.

The second opposition was a little more responsible. They said spend half, save half. Fortunately, our Finance minister (Mr. Stefanson) was unmoved by windfall media reporting and opposition spendthrift ways, knowing that he could neither spend nor save a projected estimate of revenue. This basic knowledge of fundamental arithmetic seems to escape the opposition parties and probably partly explains their concern for the education system The NDP in particular must recogni7e the education system failed them in fimdamental arithmetic.

How else can you explain their dogged insistence that a $500-million increase in health-care spending are cuts? We heaitl the previous speaker in his travelogue taking us aaoss the COUDIIy, the other provinces that have NDP governments, and had the nerve to come back to Manitoba and talk about cuts. Fifty-two hospital beds closed in NDP Saskatchewan-52 hospitals, pardon me. Hospitals closed in B.C., hospitals closed in Ontario. Hospitals closed in Manitoba, none. That basic misunderstanding of basic arithmetic also applies to the terms of surplus.

How can you call a $500-million-a-year interest charge as a result of a surplus? It must also be frustrating to be in opposition when the government announces intentions to legislate balanced budgets. One would have thought this ground-breaking proposal would have encouraged some discussion in this debate on the principle behind it. But no, what we hear from benches opposite is huffing and puffing about making it retroactive or suggestions of hypocrisy that a government who has deficit-financed in the past should speak of such things.

I am reminded of OJ¥ agricultural background when even the best of farmers require time to bring neglected land back to full production. An even better analogy occurred after the last world war. We are lucky this current pack d opposition members was not around then.

When countries of the world formed the United Nations to fight the recurrence of armed conflict, would they have accused countries like Great Britain, Canada, the United States, just to mention a few, who had engaged in an all-out military effort for six~ to bring the threatening tyrannies to their knees, would they have accused them, these countries, of hypocrisy for engaging in war and then trying to prevent it afterwards? Because of this government's all-out battle against the tyranny of deficit finance, the window

December 12, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 399 of opportunity to deter such future management is near at band Certainly there are a host of different reasons why it could not or should not be. I have advanced some of those reasons myself, but such legislation should and could profoundly affect the way future governments manage. I have no hesitation, on behalf of the people of 1\utle Mountain, in wholeheartedly supporting the principle of such legislation. Constituencies represented by the opposition are left to wonder where their representatives stand. Mr.

Speaker, I have been fortunate to represent the people of1\utle Mountain. By and large, their interest in politics occurs at election time when they well petfotm their civic duty and opportunity. By and large, between elections they prefer to be left alone to get on with their lives and to be left alone by govemmeDL By and large, they take their responsibily for themselves and for their communities. By and large, they recognize that govemments cannot provide but only promote policies that allow their individual talents and energies to flourish.

Given this kind of a constituency, it has been an honour and a pleasure to work with them and a pleasure to work with them and for them. I look with some satisfaction on things that were not there four years ago, GRIP and NISA, for example, for the agricultural COIDDIDlity; two decentralization projects, one in Killarney, one in Souris; privatization of nual telephone lines, albeit with the accompanying nostalgia for the disappearing party line. It is interesting to note in passing that 50 years ago we had teleconferencing because we had eight or 10 people on the same party line.

It was a simple matter to get a commuoity mceting Rosann will remember those days. By simply tuming a little crank on the side of the telephone a certain number of times, everyone in the community came on the line. •

(2050) We have new cellular towers that bring the cellular telephone service to all of Turtle Mountain, which were not there before. A major project has been completed to divert part of the Pembina River into Pelican Lake, restoring this lake to a pleasant recreational and tourist area and resulting in Pelican Lake being chosen for the sailing site for the 1997 Canada games, headquartered in Brandon.

We have just completed two successful Grow Bond projects, the opportunity to bring natural gas to four Dlljor ronmmities in Turtle Mountain, the designation of two east-west highways with the attendant advantages of increased tourism and heritage recognition. We have had literally dozens of commmity initiative projects completed with the help of various departments of government and their very capable personnel. A partial list and partially responsible for increased optimism despite the fact there was a violent late August storm which really damaged many of the farms and towns in Turtle Mountain.

I invite all Manitobans to visit Turtle Mountain and enjoy the many attractions of historical, recreational and natural drawing can:ls. You will be welcomed by the people who are proud to cootn"bute to the many advantages of our province and who have made me proud to be their MLA. Mr. Speaker, the subject of gun control has been an issue inside and outside the House in the last few weeks. I would like to talk about that for a few minutes, not so much in a confined manner, but as a larger example of the challenges facing future elected officials.

I believe politicians are elected to use their judgnrnt, hired by the people for four or five years to gamer as much information as possible on various issues, to identify problems, judge whether proposed solutions will be positive or negative in the long run or whether they will be effective or noneffective. That is how our government formed our conclusions and sent them to the federal Minister of Justice to try and influence federal legislation.

400 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 12, 1994 Follow the steps. Number one, identify the problem you are tiying to solve, in this case the use of weapons in violent situations. Number two, gather as nmch information as possible, and this turns out to be interesting information because in 1993 ooly 7 percent of violent crimes involved firearms. Broadened to weapons of all kinds, 33 percent of violent crimes involved weapons. Simllady, spousal abuse data indicates that in 90 percent of the cases some weapon other than a gun was used, knives, bottles, baseball bats, cars, ash trays, et cetera.

Step No. 3, does the proposed solution of registering all guns solve the use of weapons in violent situations? Conclusion, well no, because the vast majority of cases do not even involve a firearm in the first placc. In fact, will the proposed registratioo or the proposed solution of registering all firearms have an effect on those violent crimes committed with a firearm? Probably not If someooe is bent on violence with a weapon, the fact that it is registered will not matter or, at the most, will ooly cause the perpetrator to use sOillCtbing else.

It follows then to try and solve the original problem of violent crimes committed with a weapon, it makes more sense to increase the penalties as deterrent for the use of any weapon. Unfortunately, this n:commc:ndation, logical and courageous given the cmrent political corrections of gm coottol, was deemed in some quarters to be a rural victory for the rambles of the world. I resent the ~licatioo that rural people are any less concemed with violence.

There is a different attitude between people that live in the rural area and people that live in the urban centres, but it is silq>ly because rural people are more accustomed to guns. I do not like to generalize because I know that the~e are people in urban centies who enjoy collecting firearms and the recreatiooal use of them, and I know the~e are people in the rural areas that would be quite happy if there we1e no guns at all. But geoerally, in the rural areas we g~ew up with guns.

They were there. 'Ihe:re was the wood stove, the kitch::n table, the coat rack where we hung our outside clothes and the gun rack- An Honourable Member: The teleconfe~encing phone. Mr. Rose: ---and the teleconferencing telephone. Granted that the polls show support for gm ~egistration, but we nmst be conscious in our task of lawmakers that people polled probably do not know the facts. I do not say that in a derogatocy sense. They do not have the time or inclination to get the facts on all issues.

In this case, many are probably not aware that handguns and automatic weapons of war are already ~egistered and controlled and, I might add, still being used in at least some of the crimes earlier described. We even bad the spectacle in this House of a member of the Liberal benches suggesting that registering all weapons would !educe illegal snmggling. My goodness. Reason backed by dozens of actual experiences tells us that whenever you make any commodity more difficult to obtain, the use of the black market increases one way or another.

Sulely he rem::mbers the most ~ecent example of the federal Liberals' courageous stand on cigarette snuggling. How did they solve that? By lowering the tax so domestic production was competitive. Is that the way they will handle the legal il:q)ortation of guns, by making it easier to obtain them in Canada? Just as an aside, I look forward to the provincial Liberals standing up for Manitobans by demanding that we be t~eated the same as other Canadians when it comes to federal taxes on tobacco.

Only in a Liberal Canada would some Canadians be requiied to pay $300 to $400 more annually in federal tax for exactly the same product. Well, if gm Iegistration proceeds, I hope that at least we bile some university students for the task rather than tie up the time of our law enforcement officers in registering the guns of our law abiding citizens while the criminals roam unattended.

December 12, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 401 I hope it works to reduce violence even though I fear it is goveming by political correctness rather than analyzing the problem, assessing the facts and taking action that will work. Responsible gun OWDCl'S will grudgingly register their weapons, but there is a ftmdamental concern beyond that, a concem that registration will lead to coofiscation. Absolutely not, say the proponents, and I believe them, simply because governments do not plan that fin' ahead, but gun owners know it has happened already.

Despite my best efforts on behalf of one of my constituents, under current legislation his automatic weapon was taken and destroyed without compensation. This weapon was legally obtained, legally owned, and the owner had not an ounce of interest or intent to use it for any other purpose than for target shooting. 'Ibco. we had the same Liberal member from the Liberal party telling us that suicides will be reduced if all guns are registeted.

I hope he is right, but I suspect that the suicidal mind will not care if the gun is registered, and some future politician will say, well, that did not work, better take the guns away. A few years ago there was a rabid skunk that entered the porch of a neighbour's home and bit a small boy. A bandy shotgun disposed of the problem 1he boy's cure was long and painful.

Well, you can take away my gun, and I will use an axe; and you can take away my axe, and I will use a club; and you can take away my club, and I will use my bare bands, but I will protect my children, my community and my countiy from the rabid skunks of the world, be they four-legged or two legged. Well, Mr. Speaker, I am sure some members of the opposite benches are thinking, there he goes again, that old white guy, that member of the old boys' club, being insensitive to violence in general and violence against women in particular. In the vemacular of the times, not. Most of us males tend to be macho.

We like sports with body contact. We tend to be a little loutish and aude from time to time, and we often smell badly. Despite these endearing qualities there are many sensitive males, hundreds, thousands, millions of men that are sensitive to the feelings and viewpoints of others. Let there be no mistake. In the minds of many, the greatest increase in violence recently in our land is violence perpetrated by women on the unbom.

It is not my purpose to argue the validity of that viewpoint from either one side or the other, but rather simply to use that example to illustrate that there are incoosistent viewpoints among all of us, depending on whether we view ourselves as victims or, on the other hand, whether we view ourselves as protectors of our rights and the rights of others as individuals to choose freely. •

(2100) I applaud the federal government for attacking the problem of violence with weapons. I fear they have not followed the second and third step of decision making, gathered information, then proposed solutions that may address the problem Instead they are following popular misconceptions. Hopefully, their actions will at least have some effect. Mr. Speaker, let me be the first to congratulate what I am sure are any number of current sitting members who will be successful in the next dection. I hope that you will return to the Thirty sixth Legislature with your new colleagues and govem well.

I ask only that you be aware and be mindful of the awesome power we have as a group of individuals inside this Ownber, the awesome power we have to affect the lives of the people of our province. Be mindful of the awesome responsibility that goes with that. Mr. George Dickes (Point Douglas): First of all, I would like to welcome you back as the Speaker. I have always appreciated your faimess and your guidance that you have given to all members of the House. Also I would like to wel~ back the table officers and the new Pages and also our new interns.

As you know, they are in all of our caucuses, two from each party. I

402 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 12, 1994 know that we appreciate a lot of their work and effort that they do on our behalf. I would like to wish well the outgoing member for Thrtle Mountain (Mr. Rose) and the member for Riel (Mr. Ducharme) and also the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman), who will be leaving us after the next election, and whoever else who may be contemplating leaving. I wish you all the best and I know I have enjoyed my moments whenever we have had the occasion.

I know in this coming campaign and this election a lot of the issues and a lot of the disaJSsions are going to cmtre around health, jobs and education, and rightfully so, because they are very important for all citizens of Manitoba. As some people have said in the past, you can have everything you want, but without your health you have nothing. I think that is so true, so I think we have to make sure that we ensure that we protect our health care system, which is the best in the world, I think.

When you look at the make-up of Manitoba and you look at the inner city, the constituency of Point Douglas, and you look at the make-up of northem Manitoba, and look at how many people are out of wotk right now and how many people would like the opportunity for jobs; I think that is going to be one of the most important tasks of whoever comes into govenmmt the next election, to try and create employment opportunities ·and give people a chance for hope and give people an opportunity to live in dignity and to provide for themselves. So jobs will be very important.

I would like to just touch a minute on education, because that is going to be very crucial for our cbildrm. I have always said that I have absolutely nothing against private schools. The ooly thing that I have always stated is that when my son graduates from the public school system, I want him to have the best education possible, and when he goes in for a job interview or interview to attend a university that he is going in with the same level playing field as someone who has graduated from a private school. That is all I have ever asked and that is all that I would ever ask.

When you look at educatim opportunities, I would like to make sure that our public system always will be maintained to be the best. There is one important issue that is and will be aftecting a lot of the constituents of Point Douglas. I was very disheartened to hear the announcement by the federal Liberals when it came to immigration policies, because there are a lot of immigrants that live in Point Douglas that have made Canada their new home. If you look even in this make-up of the Ownber, most of the m:mbers here or their families were immigrants at one t:iire.

When we look at that, a lot of times we in this Chamber and elsewhere out in public, when yw hear people speaking at diffemnt events, yw always hear, people always mention the importance of family, the importance of being together at occasions, whether it is a birthday or a celebration, how important it is to have family around all the time and to be with family. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Olair) It is no different whether you are a new Canadian or immigrant from another country; it is very important to have your family with you.

A lot of the people, when they immigrate to our great country, they hope at some time in their life that they will have the means or the ability to bring their loved ones to Canada with them So I was very disappointed when I heard the announcement by the federal government. It is really a shame, because we sometimes lose the visim ofhow Canada came to be. When you look at the aboriginal people, it is a given, the aboriginal people were hem, but everyme else wem immigrants to Canada. When you look at that and then all of a sudden now we are seeing the more important aspects, it always comes down to dollars.

If you have the dollars, you can speak Fnglish or French, you can come to Canada. But if you do not have the dollars but you are willing to work hard and at minimun wage and do whatever is possible to give to your new country, whether it is washing dishes or cooking or doing whatever, now a lot of those avenues will be

December 12, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 403 closed for a lot of people that would have made set at 1 percent of Canada's population annually; Canada their h()lre with their families that are here and now. So I am very disappointed to see that and I am very proud that my party, the NDP, has brought resolutions forward hopefully that will deal with that and hopefully will convince the federal government to change their minds.

With that, I would just like to read into the record the Private Members' Resolutions that ~ colleagues have brought forward, and we will be doing what we can to hopefully convince the federal government to reverse their auel choice. So my colleague the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) brougbt forward the resolution in which it states:

WHEREAS Canada is a countty built by immigrants; and

WHEREAS Canadians from all cultures have been able to live together in hatmony and mutual tolerance; and

WHEREAS immigration has a net economic and social benefit for our society by providing labom and investment, purchasing goods and services, attmdiog our universities and stimulating job creation; and

WHEREAS family reunification is a vital compment of immigration policy because family supports allow new Canadians to settle more quickly into the community and because in many rultures there is a strong reliance and emphasis on the extended family; and

WHEREAS immigration to Manitoba has steadily declined over the last four years and now reflects only 1.8 pel'CC2lt of Canada's immigration instead of the 4 percent of Canada's total immigration to which Manitoba is entitled; and

WHEREAS in the 1993 federal election the Liberal Party promised to maintain a fair immigration policy, including immigration levels

WHEREAS the Liberal Party also promised, "a system that balances a strong enforcement and filimess and humanitarian and family values"; and

WHEREAS changes to Canada's immigration policy have been announced which will see the numbers of independent immigrants increased while family reunification is curtailed through changes in categories of immigrants making immigration levels well below the 1 percent of population target; and

WHEREAS family reunification is also threatened by strict new requirements on language and the posting of bonds; and

WHEREAS this culturally insensitive policy will leave many new Canadians with no option to sponsor their close relatives and reunite their families. THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the federal government to consider keeping its promises oo immigratioo, especially as they apply to family reunification; and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this Assembly urge the federal and provincial governments to consider making family reunification a top priority in their ongoing negotiations on immigration objectives in Manitoba; and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this Assembly urge the fi:deral government to enter into an immigration agreement with the provincial gOYeJm nent whidl is comparable to agreements in other provinces; and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this Assembly direct the Oerk of the Assembly to send a copy of this resolution to the federal Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, and to all Manitoba members of Parliament.

404 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 12, 1994 •

(2110) Madam Deputy Speaker, with that you can see how important it is to myself and to my party m supporting immigrants to be reunited with their families and their loved ones to continue on with family values, their cultmes and tradition. Also, m top of that, the federal government has even created another hardship on immigrants that want to make Canada their new home. That is the $500 fee that it is charging immigrants to even apply to immigrate to Canada. So I am very proud that my party and the member for Wellington (Ms.

BIUlett) brought forwaJd this private member's resolution trying to address that problem and, hopefully, would convince the federal Liberal govemment to rescind a auel, cruel action on immigrants and the ability of raising the fees to bring their loved ones to Canada. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would just like to read the private member's resolution on recon:l, and it states:

WHEREAS immigrants face many barriers before miving in Canada; and

WHEREAS the current application fee of $500 limits the ability of the less fortunate to apply to immigrate to Canada; and ·

WHEREAS the application fee of $500 means that immigrants are subsidizing the federal Department of Immigration; and

WHEREAS the~e are extreme differences between average annual incomes in various countries of origin. TifEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the federal government to consider ~eviewing application fees in the country of origin; and BE IT FUR'IHER RESOLVED that this Assembly direct the Oerk of the Assembly to send a copy of this resolution to the federal Minister of . Citizenship and Immigration, and to all Manitoba Members of Parliament. So you can see, Madam: Deputy Speaker, I and my party are very committed to work with the immigration people in Manitoba to try and undo some of the wrongs that the federal govemment has brought forward.

We know that the citizens that it affects will have a lot to say. Also, when new immigrants come to Canada a lot of them bring a lot of skills and a lot of qualifications with them, but what happens in most cases is that the government of Manitoba or the Govemment of Canada do not give recognition to these skills and dcgR:Cs that immigrants bring fOiward. So I am also very proud of my party that has brought forwud a ~esolution dealing with this great injustice. It was brought forwud by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos}, where is states:

WHEREAS human beings, considered as any country's most important resource, are not merely a material factor of production, but are instrumental to achieving nontangible values of filimess, freedom and individual self-actualization; and

WHEREAS recan imnigrants to Canada and to Manitoba tend to possess higher than avemge levels of educatim. and skills that contribute to the enricluncnt of the Canadian diversity essential to seeming a position of competitiveness in a global economy; and

WHEREAS t:bete are some new Canadians who settled in Manitoba and elsewhere in Canada who brought with them professional and technical education, skills and training which they are unable to use in Manitoba or elsewhere in Canada; and

WHEREAS there are institutionalized social structmes in Manitoba and in Canada of vested self-inteiested and self-goveming groups of professional and technical persons who collectively are exercising almost absolute

December 12, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 405 autooomy to the extent that the federal. provincial, municipal levels of government have practically abdicated the inherent public regulatory power of the Crown over the education, training, intemsbip, admissioo. disciplining and other related processes connected with the creation, empowerment and operations of professional and technical associations, societies and organizations; and

WHEREAS the utilization of the professional and tedmical education, skills and training of new Canadians would, without many social costs, be iiTID'rJliately beneficial to Canada in general and to the province of Manitoba in particular. THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly urge the provincial government to consider implementing an enlightened policy of fmmal recognition and accreditation in meritorious cases that the professional and technical education, skills and training brought into Canada by new Canadians. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, we are very concemed and very committed to ensuring that new immigrants and new Canadians that come to Canada are given the opportunity to ensure that they can utilize the skills that they bring here.

Also, Madam Deputy Speaker, there are a lot of other issues that conoem citizens of Point Douglas, and a lot of them I have raised in the past I would like to just briefly address some of the issues. One of the greatest issues that we have facing people in Point Douglas and that we have been trying to get ~cted for at least the four and a half years I have been here is the whole issue of solvent abuse. Madam Deputy Speaker, I was disappointed when the bill that was brought forward by the former member for St.

Johns prior to being proclaim:d was shelved and then watered down to only target minors, and as you know, on the police force, there are no officers who are under 18 years old who could be used to worlc undercover and buy the sniff products or solvent abuse products for evidence in court. Also, when you look at constituents of Point Douglas, I know a lot of them bad been going to the ACCESS program through the Winnipeg Education Centre. A lot of them were in the social worlc area, education area, and I was very disappointed to see the cutbacks to the ACCESS and New Careers program.

When I look at some of the negative issues that have taken place in the constituency of Point Douglas, I do not have to look fmther than the comer of Selkirk and Main. We see the banks maldng record profits, and yet one of the oldest establishments and one of the oldest banks that people have used for years and years was on the comer of Main and Selkirlc, the Royal Bank. They have closed that down, and yet the seniors and the elders that used the bank there and supported that bank, through good times and bad, are now totally deprived of their banking privileges.

Also, another issue that I would like to raise is the whole increase in rents from 26 percent for a me-bedroom to 27 percent. That has hurt a lot of the seniors in Point Douglas who live in seniors blocks, and also for the first time, they have bad to pay :rent on their property tax rebate. That has hurt the seniors, and I think it is totally unfair to take draconian measures such as that. Also, I have requested many times, since I have been elected, on behalf of the seniors at 817 Main Street, they have been trying to get a parking lot since I have been elected in 1990.

I have asked every year for the seniors at 817 if there has been the will of the government to put in a parking lot for them, and I have been told every year, yes, it is coming, it is coming, and I hope this year, it will finally take place, and they will get their parking lot. Also, I had a m:eting with the residents of Lord Selkirk housing, and we had a very pleasant meeting with the Minister of Housing (Mrs. Mcintosh). The residents had made many recommendations, and she said she would look into them after a pilot project had taken place in another area.

I hope that will come to be and that the residents will be given more responsibility and

406 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 12, 1994 more authority that they were hoping to help screen the tenants and be responsible for some of the mainteoaDce work and also look at some of the grass cutting and be responsible for the commmity. So I hope they will get a favourable response from the Housing minister. I look forward to that. •

(2120) Also, we must enswe that we support all the small businesses. It is mly a small climb from 700 and some thousand for the federal, is it not, 740,000. Also, we have to make sure that small businesses in the constituency of Point Douglas and all constituencies, whether they are rural or north, are givm assistance and the support to make them successful.

Also, when we are oo the subject of banks being cut, I would just like to read into the record of some of the contributions to the Liberal Party by the Bank of Nova Scotia, $4,225; Bank of Montreal, $3,500; National Bank of Canada, $1 ,000; Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce, $2,500; Canada Trust Company, $3,000. We go on and on and on, all the banks and the corporations, the Royal Bank of Canada $3,500, Natiaoal Trust, and it just goes on and on and on. So no wonder when the Royal Bank was closed down on Selkirk and Main we did not hear a whimper from the Liberals.

One of the cutbacks that really hmt a lot of the seniors trying to live in their own home was the $75 clawback of the taxes for homeowners and also the cuts to the emergency Home Renovatioo Program that was totally cut out. The emergency Home Renovation Program was used there for low-income individuals. If they ever had to do renovations in their own homes to live in their own homes that money was there for them, but now what they have to do is, they have to get a loan.

It is a pay-back loan and a lot of the individuals would have a hard time getting a loan, but they are trying to maintain their own home and a lot of them are seniors who want to live in their own home. Instead of the emergency home repair program helping low-income earners and seniors, what it was, it was changed to where you had to spend $5,000 to get a thousand back. Well, a lot of the people in Point Douglas do not have $5,000 to fix their house up, so I recoJTIJllf:llded at that time that it would be prorated over the amounts.

If a person spent say a thousand dollars or two thousand, they would get a percentage of that back. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would just like to touch on a few of the aboriginal issues where we have seen this government drastically, drastically cut aboriginal supports and aboriginal programs. A hundred percent of the funding was cut in 1993 and there were forced layoffs at the friendships centres, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, cultural operation grants to native cormmmications, First Natives Cc:nfederacy and MKO.

Also a cutback which was an excellmt program that serviced a lot of the northern people and the aboriginal children was Northern Fly-In Sports Camp, that was cut. Northem Freight Subsidy was cut. Northern Ecooomic Development Agreement with the federal-provincial expired in 1989, nothing was happened from that. Community Places Grants, they were funded 5~50, and it was not equal funding anymore. Also theY outh Justice Committee, Ste. Theresa Point, funding is running out.

I hope the govemmcot will put some of that funding back in, and we have been proposing and supporting the aboriginal comammity for a solvent abuse treatment centre for the North but still no action. Northcm Youth Core has been cut, and it goes on and on and on. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) The Urban Aboriginal Strategy that I have been asking for many, many years-almost every year that I have been here I have asked where is the Urban Aboriginal Strategy. I have heard every year it is coming.

I asked again, I hear it is coming, and now it is 1994 and I am even hesitant to ask because I will probably be told it is coming. And you know that in the Urban Centre and Point

December 12, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 407 Douglas especially we need a very active Urban Aboriginal Strategy to deal with jobs and education opportunities. While I am on the subject of aboriginal issues, I would just like to mention that I was very, very disappointed in our colleagues here to the left, the provincial Liberal Party, who were out there stating that they are for and will be working with aboriginal people in Manitoba. How often have the IDCDlbers travelled up North to show that commitment to aboriginal people?

Aboriginal people have told me that they were very disappointed, and smm of them were supportive of the Liberal Party but will no longer be because they were totally insulted. 'Ihere were great events, there were historical events that happened in the province ofManitoba-[interjection] An Honourable Member: 'Ihey were not there? (Mr. Marcel Lawmdeau, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) Mr. Dickes: No, they were not there.

I was even personally insulted by that, but I should not be because, for instance, the Aboriginal Veterans Day, which was proclaimed on November 8 by the Premier of Manitoba which was a private member's resolution that was brought forwanl, they asked the provincial Liberal Party to lay a wreath. 'Ihere was not one member of the party there to do that in honour of the aboriginal veterans who laid their lives down. 'Ihere was not one m:mber to do thaL 'Ihere was a letter there to be read by the Prime Minister of Canada. Darren, you were there-- The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Older, please. Point of Order Mr.

Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): On a point of order, the member has indicated on the record that the Liberal Party did not send somebody to Veterans Day for First Nations individuals. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Order, please. 1he honourable member does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. • •• Mr. Dickes: You have five other members. You have five other-you have no other caucus members? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) Mr. Speaker: Order, please. 1he committee cbaiiperson has ruled there was no point of order.

The honourable member for Point Douglas, to continue with his remarks. Mr. Dickes: What a cheap way to get out of it. Mr. Speaker: 1he honourable member for Point Douglas, you are on the recOid, sir. Mr. Dickes: To amtinue on with my speech, Mr. Speaker, the member from the Conservative side was there, I was there, the member for 1he Pas was there, and when they announced the laying of the wreath, they did not announce the member for St. Boniface, they announced the member for Cresoentwood, so you look after your own caucus.

On another note, the most historical moment for First Nations people was the signing of the agreement between the federal Liberal Party and the First Nations people. Was there a provincial Liberal member there? No, no, no. So how can you stand and say that? It was not important, I guess, the dismant1ing of Indian Affairs, the two most ilqxntant events in aboriginal communities.

Put actions to your words, do not just say you are going to do thaL That is the kind of politics, that is the kind of action that aboriginal people are fed up with, because you say one thing and yet you tum around and do something else because you do not really mean what you say. That is why. Talk about righteous. You go out there and start putting some

408 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 12, 1994 actions to your words. Damn right That is enough of that crap. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot have it- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I just want to cautim the honourable member for Point Douglas in your choice of words, sir. Some of them are quite unparliamentary. Mr.

Dickes: For me, it was a very important occasion, two very important occasions for aboriginal peoples, very, very important I know some of the leadership and some of the people came to me and said they were totally insulted by it, and I tried to apologize and I should not have dme that I just hope that from now on, they will put some action to their words instead of talking one thing and doing another. With that, I would just like to apologize for my little outburst, because that is not my nmmal behaviour. I apologize to you, Mr. Speaker, not to the Liberal Party. I apologize to you, Mr. Speaker.

You should apologize to the aboriginal community. That is whom you should apologize to. We are not fools anymore, Kevin. So, Mr. Speaker, with that, I wish everyone in the House, and the Liberals, a very Meny Ouistmas and a Happy New Year. Thank you. •

(2130) Mr. Speaker: Pursuant to Rule 35(3), I am interrupting proceedings in Older to put the question on the motioo of the honourable Leader of the official opposition (Mr. Doer), that is, the a••X'Idnm to the motim for an address in :reply to the Speech from the Throne. Do the members wish to have the motion read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: It has 1xm moved by the Leader of the official opposition (Mr.

Doer) in an amendment thereto as follows: That the motion be amended by adding to it the following words: But this House regrets: 1. that there are fewer people worldng today than in September of 1990 when this government received its majority; and 2. that this government has continued to enhance corporate grants and tax breaks while training programs have been cut back, in particular, ACCESS and New Careers programs; and 3. that this government, while awaiting reports from over 100 committees studying health care is reducing its investment in health care by following American consultant Connie Curran's prescription for fewer services to Manitoba patients; and 4. that this government, despite pronnsmg initiatives to address the overall health of children in Manitoba since 1991, has yet to bring forward any specific proposals, but has instead cut important programs aimed at children's health like the Children's Dental Program; and 5. that this government has failed to work in partnership with parents, students and educators in tebuilding the publice ducation system and instead has sought to foster confrontation; and 6. that this government has expanded gaming tevenues in this province, without public consultation or teview, at an unprecedented pace, resulting in an accumulated swplus in the Lotteries accounts of $140 million at the same t~ as health and education programs throughout Manitoba have been cut back; and TIIAT this govemumt has thereby lost the trust and confidence of this House and the people of Manitoba.

Is it the pleasute of the House to adopt the motion?

December 12, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 409 Voice Vote Mr. Speaker: All those in favour of the motion, please say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Speaker: All those opposed, please say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr. Speaker: In my opinion, the Nays have it. Formal Vote Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: A recorded vote bas been requested. Call in the members.

The question before the House is the motion of the honourable Leader of the official opposition, that is, the anrn1nad to the IDltion for an address in reply to the Speech from the Throne as which was mad. Division A RECORDED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas Ashton, Barrett, Cerilli, Chomiak, Dewar, Doer, Edwards, Evans (Brandon East), Evans (Interlake), Friesen, Gray, Hickes, Kowalski, Lamoureux, Lath/in, Mackintosh, Maloway, Martindale, McCormick, Plohman, Reid, Robinson, Santos, Schellenberg, Wowchuk.

Nays Cummings, Dacquay, Derkach, Downey, Driedger, Ducharme, Enns, Ernst, Filmon, Findlay, Gilleshammer, Helwer, Laurendeau, Manness, McAlpine, McCrae, Mcintosh, Mitchelson, Orchard, Pallister, Penner, Praznik, Reimer, Render, Rose, Stefanson, Sveinson, Vodrey. Mr. Oerk (W"illiam Remnant): Yeas 25, Nays 28. Mr. Speaker: I declaie the motion lost. Is it the will of the House to call it ten o'clock? An Honourable Member: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: The hour being 10 p.m, this House now adjourns and stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow (Tuesday).

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA ~onday,~ernber12, 1994 CONTENTS ORDERS OF THE DAY Throne Speech Debate (Fifth Day of Debate) Vodrey Ashton Rose Hickes 389 390 396 401

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-6-8b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 6th hansardpdf 8b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e931a6481592446acc5160d4a2125dc1283d566e

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).