LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 9 March, 1981 Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURR ENT COMM ITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): Civil Service 1. (a). The Member for Kildonan. MR. PETER FOX: Yes. Just before we went into Private Members' Hour I was asking in respect to the amount of change that was taking place within the Civil Service and, I believe, I was asking whether the rate of turnover was something that is normal or whether it was greater or lesser this past year?

The other question in respect to that was, from the charts that the Minister has given us, because there's been a transfer from various departments it's very hard to determine as to whether any particular department has had a greater increase or a lesser increase so I'd also like to ask the Minister to report on which departments have had greater losses and so on. And secondly, to ask whether the attrition rate has been fluctuating very much.

I know that in some industries there are periods when you have many more people who reach retirement age than you have in other years, and whether we could get a brief explanation of that as well from the Minister. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): Mr . Chairman, the annual attrition rate or the annual turnover rate has basically been somewhere between 8 and the mid-9 percent for a large number of years. There is nothing dramatic has happened in the last year or two or three or four or five or six; it's been generally that.

In addition to that the members had asked a couple of questions before supper and I think it was the Member for Kildonan. During 19 79 three educational leaves were granted by the comm ission and all have returned following the leave - that was one of the questions. During 19 80 nine educational leaves were granted by the commission, two are still on leave and seven have returned, so that was another one of the questions. I have some numbers, I think it's for the Member for Logan.

The numb er of compet itions and the numbers that were audited in the first six months and the numbers that were audited after six months.

Municipal Affairs, there were 23 competitions and 15 were audited within the first six months and six after; Agricultur e, there were 67 competitions in the department, 25 were audited within the first six months and six were aud ite d after; in Co-op Development there were five competitions, two were audited within the first two months and two were audited after the six months; Fitness, Recreation, six competitions, four were audited within the first six months and two were audite d following the six months. Now those, Mr.

Chairman, through you to the Member for Logan, are the only four that have comple ted 12 months. In Labour and Manpower I can give you five of the other departments and give you an idea what has taken place there.

There were 58 competitions in Labour and Manpower and in the first six months there were 31 audits; Community Services and Corrections 18 8 competitions and in the first six months there were 68 audits; Northern Affairs there were 30 competitions, in the first six months there were 14 aud its; Educa tion, 11 5 competitions, 39 in the first six months; and Health there were 71 competitions, and 17 in the first six months. I think that basically answers the members question. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kildonan. MR. MacMASTER: I haven't finished yet. MR. FOX: Let him finish, give him time. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. MacMASTER: Okay, the member asked and I don't know which one, it doesn't matterm somebody asked how many people over age 65 presently on staff. There are 21 and the breakdown of the 21, there are seven that are presently training somebody or completing their project, that's seven; there's eight that we were unable, I gave the criteria before, unable to fill, just at the moment for sure, five are on a temporary basis, one is a special appointment and that's the Ombudsman. Now the member asked about the departments. If the Member for Kildonan would look at Page 21.

Now there are the December, 77; December, 78; December, 79; and Decem ber, 19 80; the major changes, if he would look after, for example, Agriculture has a (1) after it; Attorney-General is a (2); Committee Services a (3); Consumer Incorporate has a (4); Cultural Affairs Historical Resources has a (5), Economic Development and Tourism has a (5) which ties in with it; (6) is Energy and Mines and then you get back to the (3s) with Health and Mental Health; then you get another (6) at Mines Natural Resou rces and you get a (6) again at Natural Resources; then you get a (7) with Urban Affairs.

I'm wondering if the Member from Kildonan could look at Page 22 and if he took those numbers and related them directly to the previous page. I think that it's pretty self-explanatory. Now if he relates them back and forth and finds that there's still - I don't think there'd ever be more than maybe one that wasn't quite well-explained. I'd be very happy to try and deal into that but that's precisely why we put the numbers there, that's why we have the information on the far side to probably alleviate that. Maybe he hasn't had time to put that together yet, but I think it's pretty self-explanatory. MR.

FOX: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister for his answer. I want to indicate to him I read both Page 21 and 22, but nevertheless it just indicates transfers and the reasons why. What it doesn't tell is that there's been an increase from 79 to 80 of some 400, or a little better than that, and where those took place. 1479

Monday, 9 March, 1981 MR. ,.. acMASTER: Mr. Chairman, No. 1 for example. and I'm not leafing back and forth, says an increase in the Department of Agriculture occurred mainly due to the Hay Incentive Program in which 80 employees are currently on staff on a temporary basis. 2. Increase in the Department of the Attorney­ General occurred mainly in Legal Services in the Law Courts. These increases are an attempt to fulfil the backlog in the current court services.

Jump down to No. 6, in 1980 functions of the Department of Mines and Natural Resources and Environment was transferred to the newly formed Department of Energy and Mines and the Department of Natural Resources. On No. 3, for example, it says primary areas of growth in the combined employment was in the newly established child-related income support program, income security day care programs, plus an increase in shift employment. Increase in casual employment occurred in Brandon Health.

I'm not trying to evade any of your further questions, but it seems to me it answers it and at the same time, while I've got the mike, Mr. Chairman, here's a brochure that is given to employees explaining the pension plan options on retirement which was asked for by the members opposite. We have pre-retirement courses and seminars which we put on; this is another brochure that we said we'd provide. That's the two that were asked for as relates to that six-month pre-retirement. MR. FOX: I thank the Minister again for trying to explain it to me.

But I would like to point out to him that in respect to these numbers, they still don't tell me specifically, outside of the 80 that are mentioned in the Hay plan, where the increases took place and what really happened, because if you take Municipal Affairs and Urban Affairs, Municipal Affairs lost seven and Urban Affairs only has two, so five disappeared. Five must have gone someplace else. I'd have to start evaluating each one of these separately. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. MR. FOX: Thank you, Mr. Chairman .... including the transfers that took place and then 1 wouldn't know as to exactly.

I thought possibly the Minister or his staff could just give us a brief rundown, 50 went into Attorney-General, 60 went into one other area whatever it is, without us having to go through all the arithmetic and then finding out that we don't know where the other five that are left, or whatever, disappeared or increased, because there has been an increase over '79 to '80 by about 410 totally. Now, that's my question. Maybe it's too detailed for the Minister to give it to me at the present time. I have no objection to the fact that he takes it as notice and let's us know.

Now other years what we have done, and if the Minister wishes we can go through the same procedure again, we have put in Orders for Return for every department, who came on staff and who went off staff over a period of time and how many vacancies were filled; because this too, it may be that some of these vacancies are just vacancies that are being filled, on the other hand they may be new jobs. But there is a total increase of 410 over the 12 months and I was just interested in knowing how it was distributed.

Aside from the notations which are in the side of 19 80 which indicate they went from one department to another, there were also some increases some place. MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, if the Member for Kildonan at this moment can pick out the precise departments, just name them so they'll be in Hansard, I tell him I'll take that from Hansard and I will detail as precisely as I can in more detail than is in the book, or if the member wishes to write down at his leisure after he's studied this book and found that it just isn't giving him the answer on X, Y and Z department, that he wants that more detailed, if he would give that to me verbally or in writing I will get our people to rip her apart and put her together. If he'd like that I'm very willing to do that. MR.

FOX: You're interested in me getting out my computer and doing all your computing and then if I find a discrepancy you want me to tell you, is that the suggestion? No, I'm not trying to be facetious. I'm just trying to indicate to him, there are 410 new positions between last year and between '79 and '80.

There have been notations that there have been transfers between departments and I really can't tell unless I start taking each one of these between '79 and '80 apart, to see whether it tallies and then I find out I'm short in so many departments that add up to 410 and I thought possibly the Minister had that information. I don't expect it tonight but if it's there, if it's available, I'd like to see it.

If not, well as I say certainly I can sit down and spend three or four hours computing this and finding out that maybe someone made an error but I would still come up with the same answer which I'm discussing at the moment, Mr. Chairman, and that is the fact that there has been an addition of 410 . I don't know where they are and how many there were because I'd have to check every transfer against '79 versus '80 and determine the differences between each of those transfers and the year previous. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, we've located approximately what we suspect to be 320.

Okay, we've got more than that; we've got 80 in the Department of Agriculture; we've got 40 in the Department of the Attorney-General; we think there's very close to 200 in Community Services and Health with those variety of areas on Page 22 that we have outlined; we've got 40 additional on New Careers within my department; so that's 360 and 14 in Legislation is 374, seven in Municipal Affairs and seven in Co-op Development; we're getting very close to the 400. Now we still may be short a few there someplace.

I think what I'll try and do for the member is break it down and document it and give him a piece of paper at a later date. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1 (

a) the Member from Kildonan. MR. FOX: I appreciate the Minister's efforts and I'm sure that it'll help clarify what happened to who and to where. Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the Minister for getting me two pamphlets that 1480

Monday, 9 March, 1981 the Memb er for St. Johns had requ ested th is afte rnoon.

I also want to thank the Minis ter for the promptne ss in which his commission staff has been able to get up with the fig ures that I asked this morning which was the delegation of recruitment and selection to the departments and I note with int erest that in the main, in the first six months when you apply it to the remainder of the time, th at approximately, well not all the cases but nearly most of the cases, half of them were analy zed by the Civil Service Commission and of course it's suspected that there will be less as the six months probatio nary period has expired.

With regard to the question that the Memb er for Kild onan raised whic h was th e attrition rate; does the attrition rate also include resigna t ion from th e Civil Se rvice and wha t percentage, is the majority of the people that we are losing by attrition by retirement, or you know, ill health or resignations? I would imagine the ma jority would be by retirement but just for confirma tion, can the Mi nister confirm? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, the numbers are made up, th e percentages are made up from resignations, deaths and retirements and we just haven't got that broken down.

But if the member wants that we'll get that at a future date. But, by and large, that's what makes up your ... MR. JENKINS: Well, I suppose it would be of some interest. I quite realize at this short notice that the Mini ster is not able to get that. I would just surmise myself that the majority of them would be retirement. lt would be hoped that it's not de aths and resig nations that would form the majority. I now would like to move on, Mr. Chairman, to another page in the report dealing with the equal emp loyment opportunity on Page 12, about the fourth paragraph on Page 12, Mr.

Chairman, as of the end of the year approximately 200 clients had been referred to the Equal Opp ortunity Office; 66 percent of the clients were female and 34 percent male; and of the total 41 percent were handicapped; 12 percent Native; 10 percent were over the age of 45. Through the process of counselling these clients it has been found that approximately 24 percent are not currently employable, as it goes on. What would be the percentage of those 200? Is the figure that we read at the bottom about 34 percent of those 200 were em ployed, is that correct? In other words, about 68 people? MR.

MacMASTER: I've got so many percentages running around in my head here, could you repeat the precise one you wanted? MR. JENKINS: I'm beginning to think I'm getting the pict ure now. Maybe the Min ister can correct me if I am wrong. Of the 200 that applied, approximately 24 percent were not currently employable, that takes away 48. MR. MacMASTER: That's 50. MR. JENKINS: lt brings us down to 152. Of the 152, 34 percent were employed and I haven't quite worked that out. MR. MacMASTER: That's 51 or 52 people. MR. JENKINS: No, 34 times 2 is 68. lt should be around 68 to 70, wouldn't it be? MR.

MacMASTER: No, it's 34 percent of 152. MR. JENKINS: Yes, 52. MR. MacMASTER: Yes, 51 or 52. MR. JENKINS: Yes, 51 or 52. MR. MacMASTER: Yes. MR. JENKINS: Yes. Are these people that were not currently em ployable, was it th rough lack of educa tion, la ck of ski lls, th at th ey were not employable at the present time or was it through the fact that writing Civil Service examinations, they placed that far down on the list that there weren't sufficient positions available for the hiring of 48, or were not even considered? MR. MacMASTER: 24 percent. MR. JENKINS: Which would be about 48? MR.

MacMASTER: Yet you can't tell at all but I think we used the words here that says, "are not current ly empl oyable within the Ma nitoba Civil Service because of the nature of the jobs they were seeking, the lack of required skills or their own personal problems and attitudes", and I would ask the members to take that for what that is worth. MR. JENKINS: What pro cess do we use for recruiting th ese people? Are they referred from agencies . . . or are they referred by agencies that are looking for people to make this program feasible and workable? MR. MacMASTER: By and large, Mr.

Chairman, they are referred to us from - if the Member for Logan would look at the second paragraph on Page 12 - the agencies that we've been dealing with the Canadian Na ti onal In stitute for the Blind, th e Canadian Par ap leg ic Associati on, Equality Employment Society, Crippled Chil dren and Adults, Winnipeg Native Pathfinders, Women's Employment Counseling, Mennonite Central Church and others, but we have built up a fantastic rapport with all the agencies within the city and the province and it's working extremely well and tho se agencies are bringing people to us.

Now that doesn't say that there ar en't some tha t just contact a Min ister, contact a department, conta ct a Member of the Opposition and say, "I unde rstand you have a program; can I get in to talk to somebody"? We have some like that but, by and large, the majority are referred from these agencies. MR. JENKINS: I thank the Mi ni ster for th at information and I think that's a worthy program. I wish the Mini ster well. I wish the people well that are applying for that program.

Does the department or the comm ission or the hiring agency, which ever it migh t be, the case wh ere the dele gation of recruitment and selection ha s been delegated to the various departments, for those who are unable to qualify, th rough the various lack of skills or personal problems and attitudes, do they recommend to the 1481

Monday, 9 March, 1981 recomm ending agenc y that th ese people seek professional help if they have personal problems? If it's lack of education and job skills, are they referred back to the agency and in turn told where they can maybe upgrade th emselves, get them selves straightened around so that they will become employable within the forseeable future? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, in our opinion, those that got jobs were capable of doing those jobs.

That's the statement that we have to keep in mind that sometimes a job can be varied slightly, but the phi losophy that the organizations we are dealing with happens to be so perfectly suited to myself that phil osophically they want people to have meaningful jobs, jobs that they are in fact, doing some thing me aningful. We haven't run into an agency that said just hire people for the sake of hiring them and put them in a corner. They have said surely to goodness there's some way that you can get a meaningful job and that's the kind of jobs that we've been getting these people. So the 52 have those type of jobs.

The others are receiving some counselling from ourselves and some we refer to other agencies for additional counselling, but the ones that have jobs are doing meaningful jobs. it's just not a tokenism sort of a thing, they're contributing very very adequately. MR. JENKINS: I would hope that was, and I don't want the Min ister to get the wrong impression, I was not suggesting that we were just hiring these people in order to make the program look good.

I think that advert that you hear on radio, which I think is a very good one, where this gentleman is speaking and he said, "When you hear me on the airwaves, you would think I was blue-eyed or brown-eyed or some thing, but you wouldn't if you saw me. I am perhaps a quadraplegic, a paraplegic, in a wheelchair, would you still look at me in the same light as what you hear me"? I agree. I think that's the way we have to hire these people who have these handicaps. I'm not suggesting for a moment that the 24 percent that are not currently employable.

What I was hoping was that the commission or the depa rtm ent, the Minis ter's office, would not close the door on them. There is an opportunity for these people to upgrade themselves with education, job skills; unfortunately when people were handicapp ed many years ago families in many respects kept them out of the public sight; they were out of sight, they were out of mind. I'm glad to say that is not the situation today. I'm pleased to see that we have been able to recruit people with various hand icaps, to give th em an opportunity to do meaningful work.

I think that is a great boost to their ego, because if we were just supplying them with a job for the sake of supplying them with jobs, then the program, as we're dealing with it, certainly shouldn't be continued. I'm glad to hear tha t the commission and th e de partments inv olved are certainly doing and hiring people because these people can supply a particular job skill that is required. The fact that they have a handicap is really no handicap to them doing that type of work. I think it's a commendable program and I hope that it will be one that we will carry on for many years to come. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona. MR. WI LSON PARASIUK: I'd like to ask the Mini ster if they've been able to identify any physical constraints to equal emplo yment oppo rtunity, especially with respect to space. Is there office space that is either owned by the government or rented by the government, which does not provide easy access to, say, physically handicapped people? MR. Ma cMASTER: We suspect th at th ere is certai nly some prob lem some pla ces.

The government has been in business for a long long time in the Province of Manitoba and I would suspect that every bit of rental space that we have within the province isn't completely adeq uate for some of the needs of some of the people that may, and I say may, be employed there. lt hasn't been a barrier yet to any of the jobs and job placements that we've managed to make. We have done some counselling in some areas.

I'm not going to go into details, I don't think the member expects me to, but we have done some counselling with some of the managers within government, as to the needs of the people that will be working within their immediate work area. MR. PARASIUK: Is the Department of Government Services doing a review of what I call the major office space configurations of the government just to determine if th ere still are any constrai nts or bottlenecks. I can think of some major space that exists here in the Legislative Building, the Norq uay Building, the Woodsworth Building.

I assume that those wouldn't have any constraints. Eaton Place is one where the government has made a major rental there. You have Fort Osborne Barracks. Is that space sufficient or does there have to be more done? Is this a function of Government Services to monitor or is it something the Civil Service Commission should be overseeing? MR. MacMASTER: Government Services are in fact reconstruct ing certain areas, putting in ramps in some areas and it 's an ongoing function of Government Services somet im es with our dir ect input into suggestions that need done in certain areas. MR.

PARASIUK: Is it the Civil Service Commission or the Depar tment of Labou r, or a Cabi net Committe e or wha t , th at mon itor s the Gene ral Affirmative Action Program, or has that program been changed? There really Is a di fference between Equal Employ ment Op portunity and affirmative action, there is a substantive difference between those two terms and between those two concepts and I'd like to ask the Mini ster whether by putting in here this heading - Equal Employment Opportunity - that means that they do not have and do not believe in what I would call an Affirmative Action Program. MR.

MacMASTER: The member's

interpretation of Affirmative Action and mine of Equal Employment Opportunity are probably quite similar. The word Affirmative Action Program hasn't been itemized and if the member is saying that by putting that heading in, Equal Employment Opp ortunity, that heading has been in one way or the other ever since I became Mi nister of Labour and Man power and the Mini ster responsible for the Civil Service Commission. MR. PARASIUK: Yes again, I think perhaps we are agreeing. If by Equal Employment Opportunity the 1482

Monday, 9 March, 1981 Minis ter is saying th at government ha s to do some thing extra to ensure that because of a whole set of attitudes that probably aren't intentional but have developed in part through custom, possibly without even thinking about a num ber of th ese things, the lnternation Labou r Organization ha s called this institu tionalized discrimination, that is you aren't doing it directly, it's just there. lt's just a whole set of attitudinal changes so that what traditionally has been called Equal Opportunity isn't sufficient, that you need something a bit more than that if you use the analogy with education.

What you should do then is sort of provide free tuition for students which was done some years ago and people would then go on to school on the basis of their ability and it would have nothing to do with whether in fact th ey needed some extra incentive in the sense of some extra effort done, to take account of the fact that they might have grown up in a culture of poverty and that perhaps you needed some extra things. Is that the Mi nister's perception of Equal Op portunity as he sees it, tha t the government should do some extra things to ensure that these people do have a better chance? MR. MacMASTER: Mr .

Chairman, it's virtu ally exactly what we're doing and in addition to that we are having sessions with departments thr oughout governm ent on an ongoing basis; talking about attitudes; talking about accommodation, if you wish, by managers, supervisors, di rectors, ADMs and the rest of them as it rela tes to people who are somewhat less fortunate for whatever reason, than some others. MR. PARASIUK: I just had one final point in this connection. The government th rough the Civil Service Commi ssion would be doing that with respect to civil servants.

I'm ask ing this of the Mi ni ster, as someone who is a member of Cabinet, someone who has raised some int erest in this particular topic. Whi ch branch of the government would be raising this whole concept with Crown corporations and with private sector at large and with other public in stitut ions, like ho spitals, municipalities, municipal corporations, school boards, etc.? MR. MacMASTER: By and large we have had some meetings, Mr. Chairman, and di scussions, prelimin ary ones with some of the Crown corporations.

I'm a great belie ver in the fact that you have to have your own ship in shape before you go out and start thumping somebody else. We think that if any member wishes to talk to any of the organizations listed on Page 12, for example, I think th e members would be delighted at the attitudes of those organizations towards our Equal Opportunity people. The individu als we have working for us. the attitudes, I think we have not only say, turne d the corner, but we're certainly making prog ress; we're making tremendo us pr ogre ss.

Because everybody hasn 't been emplo yed at this moment doesn't mean that counselling isn't taking place. A lot of the people th at were deemed to be unemployable now or just didn't fit right now for wha tever reas on, a tr eme ndous am ount of counselling is taking place - some we do ourselves - but a lot of it they're referred back to the agency on a goodwill basis. it's not take this person back, they just don't fit; that attitude isn't there at all.

We work it out and talk it out with them and say that this individual was close but at least she or he needs more of this or more of that or we must upgrade in this area, upgrade in another area.

There has been built by the civil servants, not by me, I've just projected it as a Mi nister because I belie ve in it, but the people we've had employed have just done an absolutely excellent job accordingly to the agencies who I talk to, because I trust the civil servants when they tell me that but I also have some rapport with some of the other agencies menti oned on that particular page and they tell me that they are very very ple ased with the attitude, the pr ogres s. I suppose none of us are pleased with the numbers but it's the kind of thing that you must continue to work at. MR.

PARASIUK: That's why I raised the prior question about who would be the spur with the Crown corporations and that's the Civil Service Commi ssion then who's going to be that, possibly yourself as the Mi nister because the Civil Service Commission, as such, doesn't have any direct role in responsi bility with respect to the Crown corporations. At the same time I think you can show leadership in this respect, especially since a number of the Crown corporations, it strikes me, have sets of categories of jobs which possibly could lend th emselves to the people of Manitoba achieving greater numbers in this respect.

You know, if you can look at Hydro, The Manitoba Telephone System, The Manitoba Liquor Control Commission, you have a number of areas where I think it's possible for us to push this type of progr am and come back next year or in a subsequent year, with much greater numbers, so I'll be looking at this in future years. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kildonan. MR. FOX: In this regard, I just wanted to ask my perennial question, whether we're moving in the right dir ection.

I appr eciate the Minis ter's in tent and especially when he ind icated that they were having conferences and di scussions at the departmental level and various other areas.

What I'd like to ask is - I know we ha ve made an empha sis on Equal Employment Opportunity for handicapped and for others who are disadvantaged for one reason or another - but the Civil Service being what it is and mainly we have, over the years, accepted as a stereotype area for women's jobs; I'm just wondering whether the Min ister in his di scussion is also looking at whether we can't get to a more egalitarian society and have more men in the particular areas that have been stereotyped because I'm sure that not every male just wants to go out and do what was at one time a stereotype male job.

Since women are coming into the men's field, are we doing anything in a positive way to reverse the procedure in the Civil Service which is the one area where I think we can show an example of doing this? MR. DEPUT Y CHAIRM AN, Jim Ga lbraith (Dauphin): The Honourable Mini ster. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, we did a survey, sent out 7,000 questionnaires. We were surprised in 1483

Monday, 9 March, 1981 some qSpects of those that felt that they were being denied opportunity, both male and female. When we couple that with the extremely large number of course that were available we think we can do a better job in the future of giving people the opportunity for training in a whole variety of jobs. In addition to that, on the other side, I mentioned when we were talking about the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, we've asked them to also look at the courses that we're running to give another perspective on it as to whether they really think those are meaningful courses.

So between the survey that we did which was, by the way, a confidential one we had a 52 or 53 percent return which was excellent; had some tremendous ideas put forward both by male and female. We coupled that with the kind o! ·�qwses that were running and we can change them around to accommodate some qf the thoughts that people put forward to us, plus the Advisory Council on the Status of women from their viewpoints looking at the courses, I think that we're making reasonable progress in the past and we can only make better progress in the future. MR. FQ�: Mr.

Chairman, I appreciate that the Minister is working in that direction. Can he indicate any specific thrust to making the departmental supervisors aware that possibly they should be looking at a potential in reverse areas in respect to stereotype jobs that used to be women's to see whether any of their male employees are interested, or others that would like to apply from without? Has the Minister done any direct counselling in that regard or is he just leaving it to the training programs and I would imagine those would include supervisory training programs as well as employee training programs? MR.

MacMASTER: Well, something that we found that we didn't think existed but I suppose we knew there would be some of it, in history a lot of courses have been available right back to the days when the two members were in government, I'm sure they were aware that courses were being made available.

We've enlarged on that substantially and we thought we were doing very well but one of the things that we found out, and we're going to have to work at it and we are working at it, is a lot of people, I think the kindest word is, were discouraged from taking those courses; certainly weren't encouraged and in some qreas we found that there was, not major roadblocks put in the way but there are always ways that you can suggest that a person is very valuable and they shouldn't take a Tuesday afternoon off qr they shouldn't bother, they just weren't being encouraged to upgrade themselves.

We're letting the departments know now pretty clearly, right from eye level at tile Cabinet table, that these courses that are put OI"J R¥ ftle Civil Service Commission and others and th� availability of training and upgrading are dam11 well to be allowt':ld to people to take, period. You know, one arm isn't going to work like hell trying to put all this together to have, for whatever reason, some place down within the system, people who are really desirous of getting some of these courses and not be!rg too encouraged to take them. So I think we've gpl thf!t certainly cleared up at my level and the Civf!

Service Commission people, from the survey again, found a little bit of that. We're clearing away the hurdles gradually; Wt':l're getting a better variety of courses available; more p.eople are taking advantage of them anp ttte response that we get from those that are t<!l<i!lg advantage of them and that people personally tell me that they now feel they are better qualified al"]q the next time one of those come up, we now feel 'fl!e qre ready for it. lt's pretty good; it's coming along r�l:lfit::mably well. MR. FOX: I appreciate the Minister's words.

Let me ask him, how is this related to the Crown corpor ations and the other ar eas that do not fall directly under the Civil Service? Are these training programs available for those people or do they carry their own and how is the message being passed on there? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Gh�irrnan, one of the main thrusts that we're going to take in the fortnqoming year, particularly in the rural and the northern areas, is to combine Manitoba Telephone, Manitoba Hydro, the Federal Government and ourselves in putting on some of these courses for groups in the northern part and the rural part of our province.

The member can appreciate that there might be three people in, we'll just Winkler, Manitoba employees, if two of them "'!anted to take a cour!:le, you know, just what really do you do? lt bt':lcqrnes so economically unviable that really you just don't put it on. I suppose that's what happens, so we're saying this year and we are starting preliminary discussions with Hydro, with Telephones and with the Federal Government saying, look, we have some what we consider are tremendous courses for people within government or government services.

Why don't we all get together, the four of I..!S and cost-share a major program in Flin Flon? If four or five from Hydro come and three or four from Telephones come and half-a-dozen from the Feds come and three or four out of the Provincial Government comes, now you've got a course of 20 people and it's really meaningful, really worthwhile and it makes it economically sensible to be able to send a person or two up there to run a good course for those people. So, yes, we are working with the other agencies now and that's going to be a pretty major thrust of ours in the forthcoming year. MR.

FOX: Certainly it can be appreciated that where there are small grOHP,S. pf employees it would be difficult to let too marty qf them go away at one time but, of course, there is also the possibility of using weekend courses and naturally there may have to be some kind of incentive to have them come on a Saturday and Sunday but that's two days that could sometimes be utilized to cover those areas where you can't al!o\11! tqo many t';lmployees off at one time.

I think that the Minister has really made a very good proposal in respect to combining it with Manitoba Telephone, Hydro and the Federal Governr]lent employees f!S well. I think it's really necessary because, especially Manitoba Telephones, again we have that, what I call, a stereotyping in a particular area, to a great extent where we have a concentration of III(Omen in particular jobs and yet I know that some of those jobs are fairly well-paying jobs and possibly if there was some encouragement some men would be prepared to participate in them.

So I wish the Minister success in his endeavours because as I say I, like he, look forward to an 1484

Monday, 9 March, 1981 egalitarian society. If we're going to have equality we should have it both ways, not just one way. MR. JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We seem to have drifted over into the next department or the next

section of the Minister's Report and I do have some questions. One, I think that the involvement of the federal, provincial, municipal governments and the MTS and Manitoba Hydro is a good one but I don't know if they have forgotten or what but we have another branch of government that in many cases has em ployees that perhaps could fill some of these places, and I'm talking about the school boards in the Province of Manitoba.

Would the Minister consider getting in touch with the school divisions because they may have empl oyees that would be willing to take some of the courses that are being made available through a tripartite sort of agreement right now between the federal, provincial and municipal government and of course the two Crown corporations. I would also extend it to any other Crown corporation that we have, MPIC or that. But I do feel that some boards are not operating on large budgets and they may not be able to get access to some of the excellent programs that have been set up.

I just hope that the Minister and the department would include school boards as well. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, it was an oversight on my part. We have in fact put on some of our courses for the Manitoba Association of School Trustees who have asked us to put it on for some of their emp loyees and their emp loyees are teachers. They have had a look at some of the courses that we have; they've talked to our people; they've picked out the odd one they thought was very meaningful and they've had in-services at which our staff have been the instructors. MR.

JENKINS: I thank the Minister for that and I really didn't think that they would have excluded the people from the school division. I hope also that it would be made available to emp loyees other than school teachers as wel l becaus e you have adminis tr ative staff, you have other perso nnel employed by school divisions so I would imagine that the offering of this type of program is one that is all encompassing to all segments of the society as it is emp loyed within the empl oying agency. So that makes a lot of sense and I think it's a good one.

If we 're going to be dealing with this depart ment perhaps we should turn to Page 23 where I think some of the courses are listed. I would like to perhaps raise a few questions with regard to some of the programs that are being offered here. In the Human Resource Development; in the main these are programs dealing with Labour Legislation, Life/Work Planning, Human Rights Legislation and I see that we have had 280, the biggest response we had, seems to be Management Under A Collective Agr eeme nt. Who cond ucts this course?

Is it conduc ted by mem bers of the Department of Labour, federal and provincial, universities or just where are these types of courses and where are the resource personnel recruited from? MR. MacMASTER: It's our own staff within the Civil Service Commission in conjunction with some of the departmental people. MR. JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, the y would be just the people from the Civil Service Commission; you would not recruit people from your own deparment, Department of Labour, people who have had experience in conci liation services, arbitration services.

Could you gi ve me a bri ef description of what this type of a course would entail? MR. MacMASTER: If the member would look at the booklet that I gave him, it's course calendar and it's got a breakdown generally of what the courses are about. It might be simpler if . . . MR. JENKINS: Yes, okay that's fine. MR. MacMASTER: Okay. MR. JENKIN S: Mr. Chairman, that's fine apologize, I just got it, I looked at it and I thought it was dealing with some of the requests that had been made by the Member for St. Johns this afternoon. MR. FOX: We need a word processor to help us out. MR.

JENKINS: Perhaps as the Member for Kildonan says we need a word processor plugged into one ear while we're listening to the Minister with the other and perhaps we could digest some of it. But, of the people that are attending here, these are just people from the provincial Civil Service, these are not including people from other various branches of government, these are just own people? MR. MacMASTER: These are numbers that relate to the Civil Service. These are numbers of people within government; that's what these numbers are; that's Civil Service Commi ssion Report of services we provide. MR.

JENKINS: Emp loyees coming under the Civil Service Commission, not empl oyees emplo yed by MTS, the Manitoba Hydro or that, it would just be members of our Civil Service; is that correct? MR. MacMASTER: Yes. We put one on for the Liquor Commission under that particular heading, but then that's the Manitoba Government Emplo yees Associat ion but it's a separate unit. But those numbers there are within the MGEA and within Civil Service, within government. MR. JENKIN S: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. These would cover people covered by the col lectiv e agreement with th e Manitoba Go vernment Emplo yees Associaton? MR.

MacMASTER: Yes, yes. MR. JENK INS: No t members of the Crown corporations who would be covered under a different col lective agree ment, perhaps with a di fferent bargaining agency? I thank the Minister for that information. I think the program is worthwhile. Now the Summer Workshop Program. Does this operate in the same manner as the other programs that are developed? Is this a joint tripartite type of program that is being offered to emp loyees of the fe deral, provi ncial, municipal and school board, 1485

Monday, 9 March, 1981 hydro, other departments of government or is this strictly a pr ovincial program for pr ovincial emp loyees? MR. MacM ASTER: Mr . Chairman, th ese are primarily in -service courses for government emplo yees. MR. JENKINS: Who would conduct these courses? Would some of the courses relate in some respect, because I can see that some of them here possibly could relate to some of the programs that are under the deve lopment and tra inin g courses.

In other words, are we tra inin g people to do on-the-job training in our own department, from people who have attended various programs under which we have been discussing? MR. MacM ASTER: Mr. Chairman, the course headings are put on and relate to issues that are felt necessary for emp loyees of the government and they are put on by very talen ted emp loy ees within government.

We have a tremendous reservoir of talent and expertise in many numerable fields and that's the people we call on; and, yes, during courses you run into a right male or female who has latched onto it and has a heck of a lot of expertise and picks it up and wants to go further in it, and we do, in fact, tend to bring those who desire further training in that particular area, bring them along and they in turn, in time will become instructors of their own. MR. JENKINS: I'd like to now deal with Page 15 and Page 25. This deals with Emplo yee Health and Counselling Services.

I think that this is a good program but the seeming inc rease of referrals seems to starting with 19 76 where we had 83 total referrals going up to 19 80 where we have 249. We seem to have an in crease every year of total referrals and I wonder if this is comparable to the private sector where th ere seems to be more stress in the workpla ce and it man ifests itself in various categories; especially when we look at alcoholism. While the percentage hasn't in creased or decreased that significantly, th e actual num bers, which are again of course because we have a la rger total referral.

What I'm trying to get across to the Mins ter, are we doing a better job of isolating and finding out these problems? Emotional and Mental Health is another one which in the past three years, while there seems to be a steadily increasing number, well it's in all of the categories, Stroke, Heart, etc., that has incr eased dramatically from 19 79 to 19 80, almost doubling itself. Then there are others, Family, Legal, etc., almost, well in fact four times as much as it was in 19 78.

I wonder if the Mi nister can enlighten us; is it because we are being able to diagnos e these things much more successfully than we had in the past or js it because the emotional stress and strain of the modern day workplace, be it in a factory or be it in the Civil Service Commi ssion; are there any comparable figures tha t we can apply this increase of the amount of people that are total referrals, as a benchmark against something in the private sector, that we are not alone in this field.

I quite realize that the stress and strain of the modern workplace, in many cases, causes many of the problems that we see listed here today and if the Mi nister and the commission have done any research into this matter. MR. MacMASTER: Well there are several points, Mr. Chairman, that have to be made. First of all, if you look down at (

d) Supervisory Training Program, there's jus t dozens of seminars been put on in hundreds, in fact, thousands of supervisors have been trained over the course of years, at the first point. The second point that we have to consider, and I'm relating to the higher num bers, so now you have supervisor s and people in management positions who understand that there is a program and in fact th ere is a way to help people, conseq uently th ey are util izing it better and appreciating it and understanding it.

Various things may have happened to them previously, now they are being referred becaus e the supervisors and managers are being trained that in fact there is a program here and people can be helped; that's the first point. Secondly, we've inc reased the staff over the last couple of years from one up to three. In addition to that we have done some tremendous training as (

d) says with dep artments putting on seminars for supervisors; but in addition to that there are some departments now who have specific people who deal with that type of problem within th eir own departments. So the reason that number has gone up is, in my opinion, a sign of success of the program. If we had been standing still with one person, no seminars, no training, no pushing, and it happens to be one of my very pet programs, as the Mem ber from Logan probably knows; I've been involved in the kind of program for many years now.

So I guess it's because I, as the Mini ster, said it shall go and I convinced my Cabinet colleagues that we'd better get on with it and start saving people rather than tie the can to their rear end and chase them down the road, as has so often been the case in the past within society. So now the success rate is tremendous; the referrals are great. I'm constantly hearing of managers, dir ectors, ADMs and DMs , Minis ters that come to me and say, you know that damn things working.

We had a guy or girl where there was just really now way, should have gone down the road, lo and behold, three months later that person's turned into a heck of an employee; thank you. So I want it on the record that I want to thank the people within the Civil Service Commission who concurred with my feelin gs on it and tha t worked so damned hard at putting it together. Also the departments; the Min isters are making sure their staff go to these seminars; the Mini sters are making sure now, I guess it's like anything it's experience, trial and error and now they're seeing it work.

I knew it would work but it 's like so many other things; you have to sell it; you have to prove it; you have to establish it and it's well established now. There's really no question that this is a heck of a good progam, it's working well, it's being appreciated by us, as Minis ters, because our departmental people, the morals better, the directors, the ADMs are now saying, boy, it's very wort hwhile. it's no long er something that is sort of looked at a little skeptically; no longer is that the case. MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor: The Memb er for Logan. MR.

JENKINS: I thank the Mini ster, and what the Mini ster is basically saying is that we have had the se 1486

Monday, 9 March, 1981 proble ms all the time but they have not been identified in the past and that we are now being able to identify them. Is there anything of a similar scale being done in the private sector? Is the Minister aware of anything, or the Commission itself? What I would say to the Minister is, that our ratio as in comparison to the amount of emp loyees that we employ would not be out of line with a similar private sector firm that would be operating if they had such a program in place.

In other words, there wouldn't be more stress and strain within the Civil Service to cause the problems that are manifesting themselves here any more in the Civil Service than they would be, say, in any other type of employment? MR. MacMASTER: Mr . Chairman, it's virtually impossible to compare one program with the other. I have worked with CNR people; I've worked with the RCMP; I've worked with the mining companies; over the years I've worked with other companies that I'm not going to get into at the moment but they all have a different way of approaching the problem but, by and large, it's generally the same.

I can only say to the member that a program such as in Emp loyee Health and Counselling Services or an Alcohol and Drug Program that you have with companies, with governments, with agencies across our country, they are only as good as a commitment from the people at the top. It doesn't matter a damn whether the shift bosses or the foremen thinks it's a great thing or the ADMs think it's a good think, if you don't have total absolute commitment right from, in our case, from the Premier to the Cabinet down, it ain't going to work and the same applies with companies.

I worked at lnco for many many years and we tried to establish this program and we couldn't get it; they have now got it within the last two or three years. The Steelworke rs help ed push it; the Alcohol Foundation helped push it; I, both on the union side and the staffwise helped pushed it. They finally got a group of people at the top who said it shall be and now it's working and I suppose we all look back with regrets at the value of a resource called "people" that we lost over the course of the years.

The CNR has a tremendous program going across this country; I like to talk to some of their top people who really promote it. It's a great program but somewhere, some place - and I'm guessing - I think it was 12 years ago I remember talking to people a long time ago; they got committed at the top, they were going to do something about it. They were just losing too many good people and somebody somewhere twigged to it and got some vice-president or something and down it came from the top, that it's going to work. But they all work in different ways and I am pleased that they are working.

I'm not going to run around telling Eaton's how to run their program but I've talked to an awful lot of companies and talked to people who have said, you know, we hear good things about this. A couple of the mining companies have good programs going, how in the hell do they work? So you talk to them and you tell them. So really to the Member for Logan, I'm not running away from your question. It's just virtually impossible to give you a comparison.

In my particular situation on several occasions I have said, give the person the third chance or the second chance or the fourth chance or whatever, because it's dicey when you finally say that this guy or gal just doesn't really want any help. So I take a pretty personal interest in this and I have personally sat down with some of the people involved and we reviewed some cases - well, there's one now where it's about the fourth instant - but we really think there's a chance. So you can't set a guideline and you can't set a comparison, it's difficult to. MR.

JENKINS: I thank the Minister for that answer and I realize it is difficult to compare. Is the Minister aware of any other provinces that are utilizing this type of program, what other provinces are at the present time? I realize it's maybe an unfair question, I don't know, but it would seem that this is one of the Minister's pet projects. I feel free to ask the question because I think he would be interested in seeing how his program is stacking up in comparison with other jurisdictions. MR. MacMASTER: We know, Mr.

Chairman, of two jurisdictions that work very hard at it - we're not saying that others don't - but two that are pretty well known across Canada besides ourself, I might add, because we're known to be running a pretty good program and people are pretty impressed but the Go vernment of British Columbia and the Go vernment of Al berta, particularly the Britis h Columbia Government, they have been at it for a long time for whatever reason.

Somebody some place in the past said, there shall be, and they've been at it for a long time and I think they are probably in numbers, staff, farther into it than any other jurisdiction in Canada. Alberta and ourselves are maybe similar, not in numbers, because they have a heck of a lot more employ ees. MR. JENKINS: I thank the Minister for that answer. Does the Minister envisage an enlargement of this program in the future or do you feel that it is adequate to deal with the amount of staff that we have at the present time? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, it's hard to say whether we're going to expand.

With the seminars that we've put on and the now very very sincere interest of all departments and an awful lot of key people within - I don't think it is the department that hasn't got some pretty keen people on it. The service will be greater utilized, there is no question to it. If the member would turn to Page 15 , I was struggling here trying to find which page it was, the last paragraph. It says, "Since the prevention of illness is an important factor in reducing absenteeism and increasing prod uctivity, an emplo yee health im provement program is being dev elop ed .

Communi ty-based health agencies such as the Canadian Cancer Society, the Heart Association, the Lung Associ ation and others will be invited to provide educational pr es entations to Pr ovincial Government emplo yees. A random survey of civil servants in all areas of the provi nce has been conducted as a means of priorizing preventative health needs. The first presentation should take place early in 19 81". This is an extension of it; it's not the practical daily counselling of a person who has a drug problem. It's not the daily practical thing that you can see where 1487

Monday, 9 March, 1981 the fami ly is breaking up because there's problems with the teenager or whatever. This is getting into another arm of it where we think these associations can in fact start talking to our emplo yees telling us of some of the pitfalls, if you wish, down the road if in fact they don't start looking after thems elves both mentally and physically. So that's an extension to it, if you wish. MR. JENKINS: I thank the Min ister.

I wish him well in his program and I think that it's something that we all wish to see as it's just as much as people not having accidents, not to get involved - thank you - not to get invo lved in drugs, alcohol, other problems and the big factor and the feature is the early di agnosis of a problem tha t a pa rticular emp loyee might have. I do ci:ltii mend the Mini ster because I think it is a worthwhile program and if I can just return back to Page 15 and if I go to (

b) of the total referrals, of that 249 in 19 80, 14 7 are still working, considering that they have had severe problems of one nature or another. So I think that the Mi ni ster can take heart, it's well over 50 percent are still working and that in itself is Worth noting. I think that the people that are working in this partic ular Empl oyee Health and Counselling Services and the supervisors and others are to be congratula ted because I think we want to retain our employees. I think that is the . . . MR. MacMASTER: Just a point to the Member for Logan. You must add the num bers, 14 7 - have you got that? MR.

JENKINS: Yes. MR. MacMASTER: And 56 at the bottom. MR. JENKINS: Oh, those 56 are still working. MR. MacMASTER: Yes. MR. JENKINS: Oh, I see. MR. MacMASTER: They are current cases that we're working with. MR. JENKINS: That's out of the 249, so then the figures are much better. MR. MacMASTER: So you really have 203. MR. JE NKINS: Yes, the figures then are much better. MR. MacMASTER: You bet they are. MR. JENKINS: misund erstanding. apo logiz e to the M iti ister t or MR. MiicMASTER: No, it's just tha t you didn't follow it down, sorry. MR.

JENKINS: I would say then that the program and the people - what I said before - should be commended and the supervisor of personnel that are working \6 make this program really work, deserve all the IWtld§ th at we. as legislators, can give them. I think i t 's a well worth program and it's well worth the time that we spent discussing it and I thank the Mi nister for the informatidi1 that has come forward at the Comm ittee at this time. MR. CHAI RMAN: 1. (a) � pass - the Member for Kildonan. MR. FOX: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

I would just like to ask the Mini ster in this regard, Empl oyee Health and Couns elling Service, whet h er th ere are any Workplace, Safety and Healt h Comm ittees in the various departments set up and could he inform us how they are functioning? I know that they wouldn't apply to all departments but certainly they would apply to some where this would be pertinent. So could he tell us where and how many and how they are functioning? MR.

MacMASTER: Yes, we have several going, I don't have a list of them with tfte, but the MGE A just recently complim ented us on some of the assistance we were giving them on particular seminars that they had requested. For example, stress, we put on a seminar just recently for one of the Workp lace, Safety Comm ittees in Northern Manitoba which was extremely well received. Now it's a Workplace, Safety Committee but it dealt with Emplo yee Health and Counselling Services and they sort of interwove.

So, yes, we work very closely wi th the union and the Workplace, Safety Comm ittees who may in fact want this type of assistance or this type of support or this type of programming that we quite readily put on for them. MR. FOX: I appr eciate the Minis ter indicating that there is work and I know he ma y not have the figures or the de partments before him, but I would appreciate if he could tell us which departments have Workplace; Safety and Health Committees. I would suspect that the Hi ghways Department probably would be one of them; the Government Services would be another.

Possibly ill the health field where there are workers involved in particular institutions that may be another but I'm not aware, so I ask for the in formation of the Min ister. Certainly it's commendable that the seminars in respect to Health and Counselling Services include safety seminars as well but specifically, I just wanted to know whether the safety comm ittees in whatever departments, how they were functioning asi de from the assistance they were getting in respect to special training courses. MR. MacMASTER: At the moment, Mr.

Chairman, we have the Hig hways Department, the Health Department, Government Services and we've tried some thing di fferent in Northern Ma ni toba in the Thompson area; td see how it would work and it's wotkii1g with a fa ir degree of success arid tHat 's ati int erde partmental Commit tee of all departments within government in the Thompson region. They just requested a major seminar be put on which in fact we put on for them; so we're making some progress. MR. JENKINS: Yes, I apologize to the Minis ter. I just want to go back to Page 15 .

There were one or two questions that I had on the Public Adminis tration and it slipped my mind and it deals with the 10 provincial emp loyees that gradua ted from the three­ year certificate program in Public Admin istration at the university; the branch was in volved in the revision 1488

Monday, 9 March, 1981 of the course. This course is now being offered under the title, Public Sector Management. Is that course being offered as part of the courses that are being developed under Development and Training Courses or is it a course that is still being offered at the univ ersity? Ho w are we utilizing these 10 provincial emp loyees that have graduated from that program, that thr ee-year certificate program? MR. MacMASTER: it's a course, Mr. Chairma n, that's being offered at the university and upon successful completion we pay the tuition for our people who go through it. MR.

JENKINS: How do we util ize these people now that they have come back to the service? Are we utilizing them in their field that they have received their certificate in? Are we also using them as personnel for training people, other than those in the Public Admin istation at a junior level in in-service training in any way, shape or form? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, we use them in a variety of ways but it's similar, only a much larger scale, where an individual takes a two-month course or a six-month course or a weekend course that better qualifies them to get ahead within the system.

These people once they've completed that course are certainly extremely well qualified to then bid on jobs that become available. MR. JENKINS: Yes, I thank the Mini ster. Tha t answers my question as far as that particular . . . On Page 16 we are dealing with Personnel Records and Administration and the Personnel Trainee Program. According to the report here the Mi nister in the department had some problems. How long have we had the two people that have been graduated? How long have they been with the department now? MR. MacMASTER: Approxima tely one year, Mr. Chairman. MR. JENKINS: Thank you.

We're going to utilize these people for Personnel Trainee Program within the government service, is that correct? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Page 17 the Staff Relations Division, Mr. Chairman, dealing with negotia t ions and grievance and arbitr ation services. I just don't quite get what this service does. Is this within government services or is it for ... ? MR. MacMASTER: Within government. MR. JENKINS: it's in government services. How would we utilize these people in our negotiations with the Manitoba Government Emp loyees Association?

How would we work with the arbitration services or is that just on grievances? That would not be on arbitration. if we came to arbitration, the arbitration service. Supposing I give the Mini ster an example; th ere was an in abili ty between the Negotiating Comm ittee of Cabi net which is, I imagine, operating under this with the personnel that are attached, and an inability to come to an agreement and arbitration was, say, brought in, then the Arbitration Services then would be supplied by the Department of Labour or from the people that are available to the Mini ster for that type of service. Is that correct?

MR. Ma cMASTER: Yes. They would assis t in preparing an arbitration case from the employer's side. MR. JENKINS: On the employer's side. MR. MacMASTER: Oh yes. The MGE A looks after theirs on the union side. MR. JENKINS: I see. But that would only be for a grievance, not for a wage dispute. MR. MacMASTER: Yes. MR. JENKINS: know it's a di fficult situation because the Mi nister is the Mi nister of Labour and he's also the Min ister responsible for the Civil Service Commission.

If a dispute, and you can say it's hypothetical and refuse to answer it if you li ke, but what I throw out for the Mini ster's consideration; if, by some ch ance, arbitration was necessary between the negotiating com mi ttee of government, th e negotiating arm of go vernment, and the negotiation arm of the Civil Service, these people would work on behalf of the government in preparing its case going to arbitration, is that correct, as well as grievance procedure? MR. MacMASTER: Yes. MR. JENKI NS: Right, fine. Th at ans wers th e question There are really no other questions, Mr.

Chairman, that I have unless the Member for Kildonan has on the Civil Service Commission. I wish to thank the Mi nister for his answers. I think we've had a fairly good dialogue. I think we have got all the answers to all the questions. I can't recall any I have asked that we haven't had a reply to unless the Member for Kildonan has any but I think as far as I'm concerned I am prepared to deal with the Salaries now. Is there an incr ease in the SMYs here or is this just a built-in since we have increased by approximately $320- some thousand in salaries?

Would this be looking after some of the increments or would it be for extra SMYs within this .. MR. MacMASTER: Yes. There's a request for three additional staff; half a staff man year for Staff Training and Development; one-and-a-half to expand Career Counselling and Training capabilities of the Equal Emplo yment Opportun ity, I menti oned that before; one for Admin istrative Support to Process Documentation relating to the Dental Plan. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (a) - pass; 1. (b) - pass. The Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Could we just get a brief explanation of the increa se in the appr opriation here, Mr.

Chairman, the Other Expen dit ures, appr oxi mately $121 ,000.00. MR. MacMASTER: $28,000 major increa ses in the operating cost include $28, 000 for Equal Opportunity; $77,000 for Staff Develop ment and Training; $6 1 ,000 for the Exluded Ma nagement 1489

Monday, 9 March, 1981 Compen sation Plan im plementation and $40,000 for Personal Records Syst ems and 1. 6 mi llion is projected cost of claims under the Dental Plan. MR. JENKINS: That would be down in ... MR. MacMASTER: Yes, that's down farther. MR. JENKINS : That would be down in the next item. MR. MacMASTER: I did it on the same sheet so I just kept reading. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 1. (b) - pass.

Be it resolved that there be granted to Her Ma jesty a sum not exceeding $2,605,000 for the Civil Service - pass. 2.(a) - pass - the Member for Logan. MR. JE NKINS: Could we just have a brief explanation. since we don't seem to have that large of an increase of total emp loyees, why there is the increase in this; is it increased wages that makes for the . Is this the governme nt's share of the pension plan, in cluding people that are alr eady retired. since we're not com pletely in a compl etely funded plan? We're not matching emp loyees dollar for dollar.

I understand that there is a certain payment towards the plan and then there is a picking up of part of the pension payments for emp loyees after they have retired. Of that 5.7 milli on what proportion goes to the plan; what proportion goes towards the portion that the Manitoba government pays towards emp loyees that are retired? MR. MacMASTER: I'll run through the different head ing.

Civil Service Superannuation went from $4.900.000 to $5,700,000; the Canadian Pension Plan went from $3,097,000 up to $3,250,000; Civil Service Group Life Insurance inc reased from $1 million -plus to $1 .67 million, about an increase of $50.000; Workers Compensation stayed the same, $.5 mill ion, $.5 million; Unempl oyment Ins urance went from $3 .15 0 million to $3.307 million and the big incr ease is the Dental Plan, $1 .641 mill ion. MR. JENKINS: I don't know if the Min ister and I are on the same wavelength.

What I'm talking about is The Civil Service Superannua tion Act and the amount of money that is put into the appropriation for this year. Of that to tal $5,646,000, what proportion is going to the Civil Ser vice Superannuation Pension Plan and what proportion of that is going to the payment of emplo yees that are already retired? Since we are not a com pletely funded plan. tha t's my knowledge of the plan. If we were matching dollar for dollar in the plan from its initiation then there would not be a requirement uniess there was something else that would be covered for an appropriation of $5.7 million. MR.

MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, the entire $5.7 46 million goes to retired employees in the Province of Manitoba. MR. JENKINS: Then the entire amount is for those emplo yees who are already retired? MR. MacMASTER: Just so I can correct as we go, or are projected to be retiring in the forthcoming year. MR. JENKINS: Yes. Where, under what appropriation, perhaps it's in another department, does the government make its contribution to the pension plan as it stands now? MR. MacMASTER: That isn't the process. The process is that we pay as the pension is drawn down.

As the emp loyeefi f!3tire we budget the funds to carry all those that retire find we carry for the forthcomin g year the projected num bers of those that will pension ecj and it's a continuous, evergrowing numb er. MR. JENKINS : What proportion would the Superannuation Fund pay in comparison. Are they paying from the fund? Is that an equal matching sum, or what would be the matching sum from the empl oyees' fund? MR. MacMASTER: The plan works, 7 percent emp loyees, 7 percent employer and that is paid out when the em ployees retire.

Last year's figure to cover all of those that were reti red and were projected to retire was $4.9 million and this year to cover those that are now in the system and retired and the projected retirements will be $5.746 million. MR. JENKINS: Then a matching $5 .746 mil lion would be coming from the empl oyeees' pension fund. Is that correct? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, that's correct. MR. JE NKIN S: Thank you, that ans wers my question. MR. CHAIRMAN: (2)(a) - pass; (2)(b) - pass; (2)(

c) pass; (2)(d) - pass. The Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Just a brief question here to the Mini ster. Ju st how do we pay to the Workers Comp ensation fund? Do we pay on our safety record, or is it just a fixed amount of money paid in by the amount of employ ees we have under emplo yment? This wouldn't include empl oyees working for Crown Corporations or anything like that. MR. MacMAS TER: The gov ernment, as an empl oyer, pays on the sarne system as all empl oyers in the province and that's on your experience. Last year our cost was half-a -million and this year it's half-a -million.

The experience rating has not declined or inc reased significantly enough to change our rate. MR. CHAIRMAN: (2)(d) - pass; (2)(e) - pass; (2)(f) -p ass. The Member for Kildonan. MR. FOX : On the dental plan, I wonder if the Minis ter could give us a brief outline the kind of areas it covers. I kn ow it wouldn't be a total covera ge, because mo st dental plans are fairly expensi ve, but the pa ramet ers within which it operates? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, I have a book with all the details in it, but basically it's 70 percent basic and it's 50 percent restorat ive up to a maximum of $700 in the first year.

I am surprised, I 1490

Monday, 9 March, 1981 don't know whether the Members of the Opposition have ever received it, I certainly would hope so. - (Interjection)- Okay. I would hope they had received copies of it. MR. FOX: And it's non-contributo ry by the emplo yees? MR. MacMASTER: That's right, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: (2Xf) - pass. MR. FOX: Before we pass the whole department, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to thank the Minister for his cooperation. I think we'll close off when we pass the total Civil Service item.

I should just like to say that we did leave a number of questions with him and I'm sure that his staff will get the information for him later and compile it and he'll ship it on to us. I think that's all that I have to say at the present time. MR. JENK INS: I'd just like to reiterate what the Member for Kildonan said. I thank the Minister for his frankness in his answers. We've had a good look at the Civil Service Commis sion and we' ll look forward to seeing the Minister when he presents his Estimates again.

If there are any questions that are left unanswered, I can't recall any that I have asked, but if there are I imagine the Minister's staff will look. I know that last year when I asked questions and they were left that the Minister's staff and department did check Hansard and I want to thank the Minister for the answers to the questions that I subsequently received. MR. FOX: Just one more item. I believe in past years we have received an update on the status of the Superannuation Fund, if my memory serves me correctly. I don't recall having one this year.

Maybe I'm not totally correct but I do belie ve that we used to get an update on that every so often and I'd just like to suggest to the Minister if it's going to be available we certainly look forward to receiving it. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, I'll be tabling The Superannuation Act Report in the House when it's available. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 5,51 4,700 for Civil Service - pass. Committe e rise. SUPPLY - CONSUMER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS AND ENVIRON MEN T MR. CH AIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (R adisson): This Commit tee will come to order.

I would direct the honourable members' attention to Page 32 of the Main Es tima tes, Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and Environment, Resolution No. 38. The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I just wonder whether the Minister has the information, the answers to the questions I'd asked this afternoon in order that we can continue with this area. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. GARY FILMON (R iver .Heights): Mr.

Chairman, the Chairman of the Public Utilities Board was with me this afternoon and he said that the information would be available but he would have to go back to the office to obtain it all and put it in a form that would be easily accessible for the member and I don't think that he felt that it could be done over the supper hour, certainly. In fact it might be a day or two before he has that information all provided. MR. CH AIRMAN: The Ho nour able Mem ber for Rossmere. MR.

SCHROEDER: I take it then that we can postpone that portion to the end of the Estimates of this particular department and while I'm up I'm just wondering whether the Minister can advise as to whether the interest charges, if any, being paid out by Greater Winnipeg Gas, first of all, whether any of that interest is payable to Noreen; and secondly, as to whether it pays out any interest on any loans or debentures, any long-term debt or short-term debt, for that matter, whether those carrying charges are considered as a cost of doing business in the same fashion as wages and property taxes and gasoline are. MR.

FILMON: Mr. Chairman, as far as I'm aware they are. Getting back to the matter of the questions that were raised, my understan ding is that the answers are a matter of publi c record. They are contained within the annual reports of the Public Utilities Board and it's a matter of putting them in a sort of

summary form comparing year after year, so it isn't anything that hasn't been available to the member s before or anything upon which I can foresee that there would be a debate, because the information is simply reported through me to the House and has been a matter of public record in each of the successive reports. I'm advised as well that I will have the original of this year's report to table in the House tomorrow with the additional copies being available as soon as the Queen's Printer has printed them, so that is all available to the member.

We were prepared to have the summ ary put together for the member, but I don't see any reason to postpone the debate on this particular item until we are able to put it in that sort of form for the member. MR. SCHROEDER: In that case if we're not going to have this postponed, I'd just like to make a couple of comments about what has transpired this afternoon. We had the Minister standing and talking about the 6 percent that the poor shareholders receive and he just left it at that as an indication that that is the kind of return on investment that the investors are receiving.

I would suggest that was only part of the truth; it was only part of the situation. He didn't tell us that, in fact, the shareholder of apparently 10 0 percent of the stock, is NorSen Energy. He forgot to tell us that; he forgot to tell us about how you work out .. MR. CH AIRMAN: The Ho nourable Minister on a point of order. MR. FILMON: Point of order. gave that information before the member even had arrived. I 1491

Monday, 9 March, 1981 put that matter on the record for a previous speaker and he's im plying that I with held the information and 1t's simply not true -(I nterjection)- MR. SCHROEDER: Yes. Mr. Chairman, obviously I mi ssed that and I apolog ize and withd raw that particular statement. The matter about the 6 percent however. when we ask the Mi nis ter whether the inte rest pa yable is deducted, whether ther e is interest payable to the head office, whether that is net after deducting head office costs and how much, we don't have the answer.

We don't have the answer in terms of whether this is 6 percent based on the actual in vestment, that is inv ested funds as opposed to total in vest ment, so we can have di ffe rent calculations coming up and the answers given are not necessarily, in total, accurate in terms of what the shareho lders are receiv ing on their actual inves tment. I say that because the Mi nister started off with the 6 percent.

If he hadn't mentioned the 6 percent I wouldn't be talking about the rest of it, but once you use one figure, then we must find out where you get the rest of your figures from in order that you arrive at that 6 percent calculation. MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, I did not start out with 6 percent. Unfortunately the member wasn't here when I responded originally to the Member for St. Johns.

I said the actual rate of return, as contained within the information that is provided in the Annual Reports of the PUB, in dicated that over a period of years the normal return had been in the range of 8 to 9 percent, normal actual return, but that it had been as low as the range of 6 percent.

I mig ht also ind icate that I am only reporting to the House on behalf of the board the decisions taken as to the acceptable rate of return upon which their rates are structured, the allowable rates are structured, is a decision of the board. it's a decision that's not taken by me, as Minister, it's not a decision of government policy; it's a decision of the board. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Vital . MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Mr. Chai rman, there were a couple of matters I wanted to bring up with the Mi nister, both ha ving to do with the Publ ic Utiliti es Board.

The first one has to do with the matter of the Greater Winnip eg Gas Company and foll ows questions that were rais ed earlier. Mr.

Ch airman. it's my understan ding that it's the responsibility of the Greater Winn ipeg Gas Company to be responsible for it's delivery of natural gas as far as the entrance to a home is concerned - I belie ve entrance is a technical term, the Mini ster mentioned the meter and I'm not sure whether those two things mean the same or not - and that technically it's the responsibility of the homeowner, consumer, for that part of the distribution system which is within his home, inward of the meter, as it were.

The Minis ter has explained to us that there is no contractual obligation there, no legal requirement, and that it has been solely as a matter of public relations or corporate relations, or whatever the expression was that he used, that there has been some service provided by the gas company. I would like to ask the Mini ster; can he confirm for me that it was only as a matter of public relations, or is there something more than that that has requir ed the Greater Winnip eg Gas Company to provide those sorts of services to the consumer? MR. FILMON: Mr.

Chairman, other than on matters of safety, in which the board does not take any discretion whatsoever, the gas company is required to ensure that safety to customers is always being adhered to and that means that if there 's a suspicion of a leak or some sort of a faulty connection within the dwelling then the gas company does go in and is put in the position of rectifying that matter; but outside of that the matter of service to appl iances and other incide ntal types of services that were provided is not a legal requirement as far as the Public Utilities Board is concerned. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman, I asked the Mini ster whether there was some other requirement other than public relations or good corporate relations and the Mi nister answered me specifically in the matter of legal requirement by the company. My question was a little bit wider than that. I asked him whether there was any other req uirement or ind ication or - perhaps requirement is the best word - on the part of the gas company to provide service inward of the gas meter. MR.

FILMON: If the mem ber is referring to an obligation on their part then it has only to do with ensuring safety where the use of gas is concerned within the home. If the memb er is referring to whether they have in the past performed other functions within homes beyond the meter, then it apparently has been done in the past in a variety of ways on, as I said, a public relations or customer relations policy. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairm an, my question to the Mini ster is whether those servic es have been provided only because of a public relations gesture on the part of the company or was there some other in ducement or requirement for them to do so? MR. FILMON: No, Mr. Chairman. For example, during the 19 74 Victoria Day floodings the company went to a great deal of expense in fact, to hire additional staff from as far away as the Lakehead , to pr ovide service within homes, to repa i r and maintenance equipment, gas appliances that were damaged as a result of the widespr ead basement flood ing that occurred in Winn ip eg.

The board specifically did not allow the gas company to expense that with respect to their rate base for calculations for future years and took the position that that was not a normal occurrence or that it was not something they were obliged to do, and therefore it could not form a part of the rate base for future years' calculations. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chai rman, let me be more specific to the Mini ster and I ask him this because I don't know the answer. Mr .

Chairman, I've been told that at the time that the Greater Winn ipeg Ga s Company was making its application for its exclusive franchise, that there was a letter or a document of some form from the company to whomever they were applying to, whether it was the government or the board of the day, in which they ind icated that 1492

Monday, 9 March, 1981 they were prepared as a condition of service to provide some measure of service inside the home in­ board of the meter, and that it was because of this letter they offered to provide this additional service that they obtained this exclusive franchise rather than some other group who were making application. Now this would appear to go back to 19 58 and that's before my time and before the Minister's time.

I wonder if he can enquire of his staff whether they have any knowledge of, or recor d of such a document or a letter or a contract or some indication on the part of the Greater Winnipeg Gas Company, that they were prepared to provide service of this type in a consumer's home. MR. FILMON: I'm advised by the Chairman of the Public Utilities Board, Mr. Chairman, that they have no such information or document and that they had searched their files in an effort to find out if there was any precedence or any indication of this and it is not within the files or the information of the Public Utilities Board. MR.

WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minis ter would be pr epared to gi ve us an undertak ing that he would go back to the departmental files of the government in whichever department it happened to be at that time, to see whether there was a letter add ressed to the government of the day or the Minister involved of the day to ascertain whether or not there was such a letter, a document or undertaking. Would he give us that undertaking that he will make the search? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Mem ber for Seven Oaks. The Honourable Minister. MR.

FILMON: Sorry, can I just respond that I, obviously being new to the portfolio and in fact new to the ways of government, would not know where to start but I will undertake to start the search and see if I can find it, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman, I'd now like to ask the Minister a couple of qu estions on the transmission of natural gas to a residence outside of the meter, in other words, from the main distribution system, the line to the house and from there through the wall to the meter; in other words, the provision of service up to the entrance as I believe it's called, which I understand is quite clearly the responsibility of the gas company and that there is no argument in that at all.

It's my understanding that the Greater Winnipeg Gas Company has a fairly steady stream of calls from consumers concerning breaks in the line, or possible leaks in the gas line outside of the service of a residence. I'd now like to ask the Minister whether the Greater Winnipeg Gas Company is responding to those calls and, if so, are they using their own management personnel to check out this perceived danger; are they using private contractors or are they not responding to the calls at all?

The reason I mention the word danger is that, particularly at this time of the year when the ground is starting to thaw out and it's starting to heave up and down a little bit, it is quite possible for a leak to occur immediately outside a residence and that this escape of gas can, under certain circumstances, enter a residence through a laundry exhaust, through an open window or through a cold air entrance to a fan; there is a danger there. Is the gas company taking the required steps to deal with it?

Or, to put it briefly, can the Minister assure everyone who is a user of natural gas that they are being protected from breaches in the gas line? MR. FILMON: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I can advise consumers that this response to per ceived emergencies such as leaks or breaks in the line, or even in response to a fire in a residence or a dwelling or a building in which there is a gas service, is continuing to be done.

The gas company has a 10 min ute response time limi t on any of th ese emergency calls and I'm advised that they are able to meet this, utilizing supervisory and management staff, and they are able to meet this 10 minute response to all emergency situations.

In fact the time I solicited some information, about 10 days ago, on this particular matter because I know the board is extremely concerned to ensure everybody that the matter of safety is not at all being diminished, in terms of response by the gas company; when I looked into it there had been a total of 13 fires during the period from which the strike had started to the period in which I enquired and I was assured that the gas company responded to shut off the valve to the service to the building in all cases within the 10 minute limit and, in fact, in three of the 13 calls they had arrived before the Winnipeg Fire Depart ment , so the y were in fact making their response very very quickly as they are required to.

MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I am very pleased to hear the Minister's concern; very pleased to hear also that the supe rvisor y personnel at Gr eater Winnipeg Gas are able to respond so quickly to switch off the gas at the main when there is such a problem. A question arises from that; what happens in the event of a breakage in a pipe after the gas has been switched off? Who comes along to fix it or does the consumer have to wait until the end of strike before empl oyees of the gas company will come around and restore gas service? MR.

FILMON: That continues to be a responsibility of the gas company and it would be incumbent upon them to repair that sort of situation. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I'm not questioning the responsibility of the gas company to make those repairs. The question I raise with the Minister is who is making the repairs; is it the supervisory personnel at the gas company who are doing this or does the company contract or call in an outside serviceman to repair the damage? MR. FILMON: They are responsible to make the repairs whether it be with their own supervisory staff or with contractors.

I know that the installation of lines, for instance, is contracted out traditionally, even under normal circumstances not including a strike situation, so they do have this workforce available to them even at the present time and we are not aware, through the Public Utilities Board, of any instance in which they have not fulfilled their responsibilities in this regard. 14 93

Monday, 9 March, 1981 MR. WA'"PING: Mr. Chairman. I wonder if I could move on to a slightly di fferent area of the Public Utilities Board and raise the matter of the Manitoba Telephone System and its rather unusual loan to a company by the name of lnterdiscom Systems Ltd. I know that when the Manitoba Telephone System applies to the Public Ut il ities Board for a rate mcrease that the Board does probe very closely into many of the activities of its telephone system and in deed requires the system to provide details of its plans over the forthcoming year.

My understanding of the situation with lnterdiscom was that the original financial dealings with the com pany came about by means of lnterd is com replying to a tender call and were given an original contra r::t IA{hich was subsequently increased in a couple of steps, I belie ve the Auditor reported to us, and subsequent to that Ma nitoba Telephone Sysl@m had advanced $1 .5 mill ion to lnterdiscom in the form of a loan which was, to my knowledge, the first time that something like this had ever happened. My question to the Min ister is, was this matter referred to the Public Utilities Board?

Did the Public Utilities !3oard learn of it in advance of a loan being made? What enquiries were made by the Public Utilities Board into the circumst ances surrt!lunding the loan? Did the PUB make any response, either to MTS or to the government, as to the propriety or the safety of the loan? MR. FILMON: The lnterdiscom loan was a decision of the MTS Board of Directors, Mr. Chairman, after the last rate increase had been granted.

The only way in which the Public Utilities Board might or might not become involved post facto would be dependent on whether or not it resulted in an application by the MTS board for a rate adjustment, but at the present time we don't envisage any way in which the PUB would become involved in making any judgment on the advisability of this loan. MR. WALDING: I'd like to ask the Minister whether the Public Utilities Board was advised or approached by the Manitoba Telephone System in regard to this particular loan in an endeavour to get an opinion from the Public Utilities Board.

Did MTS approach the Board in advance of making this move? MR. FILMON: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minis ter whether the board had consider eq the matter after learning that such a loan had been made, whether it was by reading the newspaper or through some other means. Did it come to the notice of the board and di d the board consider it of sufficient imp ortance or unusualness that it should consider the matter? MR. F!!.,IVION: After becoming aware of it through the media, I'm informed that the Board asked for the information from the Manitoba Telephone System. MR.

WALDING: Mr. Chairman, the Minister tells us only half the story. After th ey had received the information, IA!hat happened? MR. FILIVION: Mr. Chairman, the Board has had no occasion to make a judgme nt on the loan decision. it's a day-to-da y management decision which the MTS Board is entitled to make and the PUB will not become involved unless qnd until the Telephone System applies for a rate acljustment. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chqirman, I think what the Minister is telling me i!l that the Board was sufficiently concerned Wh!':ln they read about it in the paper tha t they asked for the information and they discussed it and then nothing. Can I assume from th at that the Pllblic Utilities Board had reviewed the matter and had not found anything sufficiently alarming or disturbing to them th at they felt necessary to report either dir ectly to their Minister or to the Mi nister reporting for Telephones via their Minister? MR. CH AIRMAN: The Hono urable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr.

Chairman, perhaps as the former Mi nister respons ible for Telephones, I can recall and refresh the honourable member's memory that the issue was raised in the Chamber by, I believe, the Member for lnkster during the last session at the time the loan in question was bein g made. I can indic ate to the ho nourable member and to Memb ers of the House that the m&tter was looked into and was judged to be an approp riate expendi tur e of funds by Manitoba Telephones, appropria te that is, within the authority vested in t h e corpor ation in The Manitoba Telephones Act.

They are cooperating with the firm in qu estion in a very signific ant research and development program and indeed it was taken one step further.

The Atto rney-General's Department was asked for an opm1o n with respect to the appropria teness of the loan in ql.lestion, again on the same basis, was the Telep hone Board of Comm issioners acting within thejr scope of authority in making and approving such a loan, was deemed by the Attorney-General's Department and others looking at The Manitoba Telephone Act that this was a legitimate research and development expenditure of funds undertaken by Manitoba Telephones at that time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Hof1ourable Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman, I realize that we're on the Estima tes of the Minister in Consumer and Corporate Affairs and this Minister doesn't report for the Manitoba Telephone System. We will get to the Public Utili ties Comm ittee at a la ter date and ppssibly hav13 an oppprtunity tp ask the Minister reporting for telephones a few questions at the appropria te time, but I do appreciate the remarks that were made by the Mi nis ter of Na tu ral Resources. I raised the matter in the way that I did and phrased the questions in the way that I did to try to find out the involvement of the Public Utilities Board itself.

The Minister of Natural Resources told us in his remarks that the matter was looked into. Now I know tha t the Minister involved was concerned, the government itself was concerned, anq he tells me that the Attorney-General was. When he said the matter was looked into, is it a governmental looking- 1494

Monday, 9 March, 1981 into that he was referring to or does he imply that it was the Public Utilities Board itself that looked into the matter at that time? He is shaking his head in the negative, Mr. Chairman. But the Mini ster of Consumer Affairs h9s tpld LJI> that the Public Utili ties Board did consid er th e matter but that there was no report made to thE! Mi nister or concern raised.

Let me ask the Mi nister, if the Public Utilities Board considered the matter of the security of the loan to lnterdiscom, the Provincial Auditor has indicated to us that part of the security for that loan was the assets of lnterdiscom and in particular a num ber of patents that it holds on some rather technical electronic or tele communi cations equipment, which I understand have the potential to be extremely valuable.

I want to ask the Minister now if the Public Utilities Board considered that security and whether they were satisfied that in the event of lnterdiscom being unable to repay it's debt, that title to those patents would in fact and beyond any shadow of a doub t revert, either to Ma ni toba Telephone System or to the public domain generally? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister. MR. FILMON: Well, as I indi cated previously, Mr.

Chairman, the board only looked at it on an informal basis to acquire the information, that is the Public Util ities Board , because there were some media reports of it; and that is not because any alarm was exhibited by the board but only because it's always concerned on any matter which relates to the day-to­ day financial position of a utility under it's purview; but it did not issue any order as a result of its review of the matter; it made no judgment as to the security of the loan or the details of the transaction or anyth ing of that nature; it merely asked for the information which it acquired and did not go into any detail on it.

As I said, it would not become involved with that particular loan unless it resulted in an application for a rate in crease and will not be involved until and unless there is a future application for a rate increase by the utility. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I find th e Min ister's last remarks somewhat odd. He is telling us that the Public Utilities Board asked for some information and having received it, looked into the matter on an informal basis and made no order. Mr.

Chairman, having asked for the material, how would the Public Utilities Boarq do anything other than consider the material that it asked for? it would be inconceivable to me, Mr. Chairman, if the Public Utilities Board had found something that concerned it or gave it grounds for alarm or found some reason to alert the Mini ster, or the government, or Manitoba Telephone System generally and not say anything about it. The Min ister says that they didn't issue an order, fair enough, I accept that the Public Utilities Board had found no reason to issue an order.

All that I'm asking the Min ister for is that assurance that the Public Utiliti es Board looked at the matter, however informally, and were satisfied in their own mind that there were no red flags to run up; no reason to phone the Min ister in great panic and say, you've got to do something about this. Why is he so shy about adm itting that? MR. FILMON: Mr.

Chairman, the PUB was satisfied having regard to the questions that were asked in the Legislature, the debate that arose in the House as a result of the matter, that surely the Provincial Auditor and the Attorney-General were providing the House with adequate information on the matter and that it was not something which required the Public Utilities Board's intervent ion. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman, I never ha d suggested that the Public Utili ties Board had a duty to do this or that it was a requirement that they should have reviewed it; we do have a public auditor, and the Mi nister has mentioned that the Attorney­ General reviewed it as well, and we have a Min ister that reports for the department. So all I wanted to know was, had the Public Util ities Board in its wisdon, appris ed itself of the matter? The Mi nister tells us that it asked for the information, that it rf)viewed it and it didn't ind icate that there was any urgent action required. That's all I wantfld to know. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Ho nourable Member for Seven Oaks. MR. SAUL A. MILLER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I have been listening to th e Minis ter earlier this afternoon and this evening as well.

With regard to the question of the gas utility, the Minis ter I gather, and if I'm wrong he 'll correct me, imp li ed that although he was Mi nister in the sense that he was responsi ble for the Utilities Board, responsible in the sense of fielding any questions in the House that may be asked of him, relaying that question to th e Utilities Board and then bringing back the answer that the board conveys to him, and that basically the board is at arm's length from government; it's an established board; it holds hearings, etc., etc. He nods his head so I assume that's how he perceives his role.

As well, that the board gets involved when there is an application for a rate increase, the gas utility, or the Telephone System or any utility that wants to raise it's rates then they make application to the Utilities Board; thfl Utilities Board orders hearings, has its own consultants on hand; they examine it; they look into all the cost factors which are put them; examine them, sati sfy thems elves that in fact, the facts as presented by the company are in order and then allow or disallow a rate increase. lt could be at a substantial rate increase or a minor rate increase, they have that power.

But the feeling I got was that generally the Board's attitude, it's relationship with the compa nies, is sort of the company is saying, don't call us, we'll call you. lt was the Board sort of is passive and the Mini ster certainl y is passive because his view is that he simply is a conveyor of requests, in formation and me ssages from the Legislature to the Utilities Board. Mr. Chairman , I've been looking at The Public Utilities Board Act and I find that Clause 64( 1) it says Investigation of Excess Charges.

We have a situation here where a particular utility is now in a position where some of its emplo yees have withd rawn services. They have ther efore notified their customers that they cannot provide th ose services and if something goes wrong with their gas-firing units, whether it be a furnace or heater of some kind or other, or a stove, that they should call in a private contractor and have it repai red or looked after, as the case may be. Now the Minister, in responding to 1495

Monday, 9 March, 1981 questions in the House and this afternoon, seemed to imp ly, well, he's not going to get involved in that.

When the company comes back in the future, if they do for an increase in the rates, at that 1 ime of course the Board will look into what has occurred; they will look at the cash flow that's occurred in these intervening months, the fact that they haven 't paid out - I don't know whether there's 40 emplo yees, I might say there's $1 5,000 average per emplo yee, that 's $600 ,000 per annum that they haven 't paid out hundreds of thousands of dollars in wages - that the Board may say, well, look, you didn't really pay those wages, therefore, the incr ease you're requesting is too high, we're not going to give it you; we're going to cut it down and recapture what you gained last time around which is, in my view, the wrong way of going about it.

The Mini ster has a reluctance to involve himself in a strike. Fine, that's fair game and he's correct. But the Min ister I'm sure does recognize that the rate that was establ ished had to take into account all the cost factors faced by the Greater Winnip eg Gas Com pany; whether it was wages; whether it was material; whether it was the price of natural gas that they were buying from Alberta; whatever it was. All these factors are put in to the hopper, they 're examined I'm sure by accountants, by engi neers who will challenge the gas company.

But in the final analysis they are examined and it's determined that in fact the company is entitled to 8 percent in crease or whatever the increase happens to be. So that's built into their rate, it's built into the toll that they charge to cover all these costs. At this point they are not paying out certain mo neys by virtue of the withd rawal of services that has taken place; they aren't paying it out. I maintain, Mr. Chairman, and I'm wondering really whether in fact it's proper for the Minis ter to say, well, you know, I don't get involved.

As I say, the Act, under Investigation of Excess Charges it says "where requested to do so by the Mi nister or in the opinion of the board it is expedient to do so, then the board may proceed to hold investigations as it sees fit into all matters relating to the nature and quality of the service of the commodity in question or to the performance of this service and the toll s or charges demande d therefore". Now, surely, if they have not decreased their rates to reflect the savings in their costs then they are overcha rging, Mr .

Chairman, and they are overcharging it and the Mini sters says next time around, when they come for an increase we'll look at it. The time to look at it is when they are in fact benefiting from this strike because they are benefiting. As I said, I don't know how many people are on strike. I'm guessing, perhaps 40; I'm guessing that the average wage may be $1 5,000, tha t's $600.000 per annum. That 's a good reason to continue that strike, let me tell you, it's a nice cash flow. Further, I find that the general powers of the Board.

"they may investigate on their own init iative". lt says so, "upon its own init iative or upon the request of the Mi nister or the Lieutenant-Governor­ in-Council" and they may undersee, look again, at the tolls, the fares, the charges made, etc., etc., or for any products supplied or service rendered. So, Mr. Chairman, I find it very strange that the Min ister (

a) adopts the position that it's not me, now don't look to me to act on this matter; I can only act through the Utilities Board and the Utilities Board will do it next time they are faced with a rate hearing. Instead of the Utilities Board, which I think the Act giv es them authorit y to act on their initia tive, certainly it's very clear that where they are requested to do so by the Mini ster, it says very clear, then all matters relating to the nature and quality of service and the tolls or charges demanded therefore can be investigated.

Now if the Minis ter wants to get up and say that's the way I want it, well, that's his prerogative; that's his prerogative, that's fine. If he says I do not want to launch an investigat ion; I don't want another inquiry made; let the rates be as they are, we'll get them later on; if that's his position and he wants to say so, then I'll accept that. He stands or falls on that posi tion.

I would dep lore it, as I think the customers of Greater Winnip eg Gas are going to deplore it, as well they should, because there's no question that so long as they are saving the kind of money they are saving, there is very little, I'll use the word "in centive" to the company, to settle that strike. it's a beautiful situation to be in. They just had a hearing; they just had a rate increase, it's set to go and it's introduced and then comes a strike.

They are not going to hear from the Utilities Board again, and they 're not go ing to hear from the Minis ter again through the Utilities Board until the next rate hearing which may be two months from now, maybe six months from now, we don't know. I'll pose a hypothetical question to the Mi nister.

Just supposing, by some remote fluke, inconceivable perhaps, that the Alberta or the pipeline, suddenly lowered its natural gas per unit costs, per cubic foot costs or however they measure it, they lower their price by 25 percent, would the Mi nister then take the position that he is going to nothing about it and wait until the Greater Winnip eg Gas applies for a rate decrease or a review of the rates? No way.

I'm quite sure the Mini ster would expect that the Uti lities Board will convene immedia tely to look at the rates to determine what the new rate should be, since there's a hypothetical, as I say, a theoretical drop in the price which the Greater Winnipeg Gas would pay for the natural gas it buys from the pipeline. So I put those in the same category in my mind.

If there were a drop in the price of natural gas to the gas company, I would expect the rate to drop after a hearing; if there is an increase in revenues to the gas company, because of a strike, because of money they are not paying out, and yet those mone ys I'm sure were calcula ted in the rate from the very begi nning and are still calculated in the rate, that in fact the Min ister has an obligation.

If the board doesn't do it, although they too have the authority to do it on their own, but if the board doesn't do it the Minister can request, he doesn't have to order, he can request the Board to look into the rates. Are the rates fair in the li ght of the payout of the ga s company, of the gas utility? Are they making money on this strike? Is it conceivable that in fact there's an incentive to the company to take its time about settling the strike?

Because the idea that somehow we'll catch up to them later, that later never comes about, because at the next hearing there'll be so many new factors and so many new inc reases in costs that it never quite evens out. 1496

Monday, 9 March, 1981 it's like the days when we had the wage and price controls here and the companies were required to roll back prices and some were ordered to roll back prices. But the fact is, on later investigation, it was shown that what they had to roll back was far less than what they actually made by exceeding the threshold that they were permitted, the profits th ey were permitted.

The same will happen here so I'm curious to hear from the Min ister whether, in fact, he realizes the position he's taking of hands-off is not something, and I got the impr ession when he was speaking and I accepted what he said, that that's what the Act says it's really not him it's the board. But the Act, as I see it, specifically says the Mi nister can do it as well as the Board and I am surprised that he hasn't asked the Board to do it.

I won't ask the Board why they hav en't done it on their own because I'm not speaking to them, I'm speaking to the Mi nister who answers for them, and wondering why the Mi nister hasn 't gone through the logical step of saying, hey, there's been a change in the profits that the company is going to be able to make; let's review the rates and see what has changed since last time and if, in fact, there's a change, they're making more money or they're having less expenditures than they indicated they would have, then the rate has to be adjusted imme diately after the hearing, like now, not a year from now or six months from now.

MR. FILMON: Mr . Ch airman, the total revenue requirements for the Greater Winnip eg Gas Company for this year are establ ished at $1 36,625,000 which if my calculations are correct is some where in the range of about $2.5 million a week. The 40 people that the memb er refers to who are not being required, however many they are, if they're earning something in the range of $500 a week that would be something like $20,000 a week. You're looking at a very very small possible dim inution of the total costs that the gas comp any might in cur.

You're not factoring into it the fact that they now have to pay overtime to get supervisory personnel to do the job that these people are not. I also kno w from information received from the Board that the gas com pany is probably putting on greater security personnel in a variety of locations during the course of the strike, and they have inc reased costs in that respect.

They ma y have a variety of di ffe rent in creased costs in the course of the Public Utilities Board 's investigation and di scussion through its consultants with the gas company; there appear to be indications of a variety of areas in which there may be increased costs. So the net effect, whether it's plus or minus, is not very large in the overall total with respect to its revenues.

In order to change a rate, either up or down, the Public Utiliti es Board would have to convene a public hearing and to do so in the course of a strike, without knowing what the net effect or the di fference is in costs in order to achieve this, it just seems not rational to say that in the midst of the strike, without knowing what the pluses and minus es all add up to in terms of a differential a cost base for the gas company, it seems to me as though I'm being asked simply to intervene to put pressure on one side in the course of an indus trial relations viewp oint.

I cannot perceive it as anything else because there doesn't ap pe ar to be any cle ar justification, any clear evidence, that there are large amounts of money being changed as a result of the strike, large amounts of savings.

There may be and there may not be because on the one hand we're being made aware that they have inc reased costs; on the other hand we're being made aware that there may be some savings in salaries not pa id; but the net effect surely can't be judged in a period of time of three or four weeks in the midst of a strike when all of the factors can't be brought to bear. it seems to me that it's the perfect kind of information that should be brought out in a public hearing, in a short period of time from now, I belie ve it's around April or May that they will be coming forward for a rate in crease, and that kind of information can more properly be brought out.

I hope that the strike is over by that time so that we will know exactly what the total effects are on the plus and minus side. If the total effects are that there has been a savings on the part of the gas company then the customer will save and that is, after all, the concern of the Publi c Utili ties Board and my concern, as Mini ster, is that the customer will save by this whole process.

At the same time, if they have had to plug in some costs that aren't ongoing normal costs, such as this extra security and that, it won't even be allowed for them in th.e base rate upon which their next rate will be calculated. So it seems to me that there isn't any sort of a case that can be built for my intervention at the present time. MR. MILLER: The Min ister started off this whole dia logue I think a week ago, the last few days and certainly today, taking the position that he should not intervene. What I've heard today is an intervention. He has inter vened and he's judged.

He's decided that the amount is negligible out of an entire total budget; he's decided that the amount is so small that it may not be - really out of a budget of $1 36 million how much is about $600,000.00. He said it may run 10 0,000, wages may be annualiz ed at $1 00,000, 20,000 at 50 weeks - $1 million - I'm saying it was 600,000.00. But on the one hand he's saying, don't look to me; on the other hand he's now gotten up and explained to us why he's not doing it because he can't see, he's already judged the situation and decided that the savings are so small. Mr.

Chairman, whether they're small or large the rate we assume is establis hed based on known costs. Those costs that the Greater Winnip eg Gas adm itted and were proven, I assume by the accountants, to be valid have not materialized. it's now two months, it may be another two months, that's a third of a year; it's not a matter of whether it's 1 percent of $13 6 million or it's 10 percent of $13 6 million; the fact is there's a substantial savings to the company and their rates do not now reflect that sav ing. Cer tainly it's an in cent ive to the company to continue as they are maybe till the hearings in May.

I can assure the Mini ster that they'll have a lot of reasons of why they don't have to recover any of these savings; ther e'll be other factors coming along; there'll be new in creases in the price of gasoline, the per cubic feet from Alberta and the thing will simply disappear. So, Mr. Chairman, I can't accept the Mi nister's position and I think he's wrong in now arguing that the position he's taking is not as he did before saying you know, that's the Utility Board, I simply respond to questions about them, I don't int ervene. 1497

Monday, 9 March, 1981 Now he's saying, yes, he has a right to in tervene to the extent of requesting a hearing by the Utility Board. He doesn't want to do that because he has prejudged it. He has decided that they may have other costs, security costs, because they have to secure their premises because of the strike. Maybe they're paying overtime to management personnel, although much of management personnel is on a weekly or a monthly salary, they're not on an hourly basis. Maybe they're going to be given a bonus, maybe they're not, I don't know.

These are things I don't know and he doesn't know, unless he has already spoken to the Gas Company. That may be, I don't know what he's done, but he has stated certain assumptions and then pr oceeded to ju stify his actions or inactions based on those assumptions. I don't think this is a service to the public.

The suggestion that in the final analysis it's the consumer he's concerned about, I ha ve to say to him that I don't believe the consumers will view hi s inaction as a service. that the so-called savings that are going to pass on to the consumer in June or July, whenever they're going to pass on, are never going to materialize. You're never going to see them, but they do know that today they have to phone Furnasman, or - who are the other companies - Great West, and pay them their $35 per call even though all he does is turn a little switch because he knows where the switch is located.

The consumer who is doing that is not going to be convinced by the Mi nister who's saying, "Yeah, come May or June, your rate may drop, mayb e". That's a dis service and frankly, in my view, it is not - since you're dealing with a monopoly, a company that's guaranteed by law that they must make a profit, whether it's 6 percent as the Min ister says, or 11 percent as I suspect, doesn't matter.

They ha ve a mo nopoly; they're the only show in town; they set the ground rules and now they've taken one ground rule and changed it uni laterally and said, "you, the consumer, you don't like it, switch to oil; get an electric stove, get an electric water heater, but that's the way it is" . In my view that is inadequate. it's not a position that a government whose concern is the public generally, the consumer, it's an attitude that I find appalling.

In the light of the Min ister's comme nts, I'm surprised that this Mini ster would take that kind of attitude and then try to justify it as he has done all day today and last week during Question Period. MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, I want to respond by saying firstly, that there is no guarantee that the Gas Company will make any rate of return, much less the allowable rate of return on their investment.

That is not within anything that the Public Utilities Board does. (In terjection)- I said there's no guarantee the y'd make any rate of return, much less the allowable rate. (In terject ion)- Well, because they can get the rates adjusted the following year, - (I nterjection)- but there's no guarantee that they will make the