VOL. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY NO. 15 FOR THE PERIOD 3:00p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, JUNE 3, 1982

.Tune 1, 1982 '!'he House met at 3:00 P."I. Mr. Soeaker in the Chair MR. SPEAKER (Russell); Tape No. 866 Order, please! MJ - l Yesterday durinq the Question Period the question was raised, I think by the Opposition House Leac.er (Mr. J. Hodder) or the Leader of the Ooposit ion (Mr. S. �earvl. as to whether or not t�e hon. member for Steohenville {Mr. F. Stagg), I think, would be permi tted to ask a question durinq ouestion Period. It occurred at the end of the Question Period and I said at that time I would hopefully make a ruling on it today.

I have looked at the matter and am satis fied that the leqal entitv of parliamentary secretaries has not been estnhlishcn and �hall not be established until such time as departmental leg isla tion is passed in the House of Assembly. MR. CALLAN: MR. SN'7\KER: Well they will not be paid. And I understand also that the neoole who have been desiqnated as parliamentary secre taries are not heinq remunerated at the present time for the position and therefore until the act becomes leg al, while it is a little unusual oerhaos for government backbenchers to ask questions of ministers,it is certainly permissible. IIIR. W.

"IARSHALL: MR, SPF.AKER: Council. "IR. PJ!All.SHALL: SOMF HON. MEMBERS: S'l'A'l'EMFNTS RY MINISTERS Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Presiden t of the Mr. Speaker, I have a - Hear, hear! 111R. MARSHALL: - I have a statement to make in the absence of the Premier - I spoke wit h t he Premier at lunc htime today and he is aware of this statement - and I make it,as I have indicated. with a qreat deal of reqret . 1045

June 3, 1928 Tape No. 866 MJ - 2 "'1R. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I verv much rcuret Lo advise this House that at 12:00 noon today we were informed the Suprome Court of Canada had set the fpneral reference to the offshore issue for hearing on November 29th, 1982. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame, shame! Mq. MARSHALL: The Feder.11 Pactum must br !rnbmi.t-tcd by November 25th, 1982, the Provinc-ial Factum must be filed fifteen days after that, on November 10th, 1982. Now, Mr.

Speaker, this is obviously a time for measured words and comment. 'rhe Cabinet will be fully assessinq this decision and more detailed comment will follow after qovernment has fully weighed the implications of this decision. However, it does need to be said - 'lnd this, Mr. Speaker,

June 3, 1982 Tape 867 PK - 1 MR. MARSHALL: could prove to be the understatement of the century, and certainly the understatement of the past thirty-three years - that the government of this Province and indeed the people of Newfoundland and Labrador will receive this ~ecision with deep and '.itter disappointment which willensu~e for many years to come. To set a date for the hearing of the federal reference before the Supreme Court of Newfoundland will have had an opportunity to render a considered decision on the issue is a departure from what is the accepted practice.

To those who might state that the High Court of this Province could hear and render a decision before November 29, we would point out that the issues involved are complex and the material to be considered is voluminous. Mr. Speaker, I could add to that by way of example that the reference thut every one is familiar with here in the reference to the Labrador boundary was referred to the courts in 1922, with the Privy Council.

To give you an idea of the complexity of decisions like this, it took four years for the hearing to take pl~ce, November/December 1926, and their decision was not rendered until March of 1927. So that is why I say the issues involved are complex and the material is voluminous. In effect, Mr. Speaker, what this decision does is to apply a stop watch and deadline on the Supreme Court of Newfoundland when it might not be possible to give an opportunity for a fair and comprehensive hearing and treatment of the issues within the time frame let alone render a reasoned decision.The issues involved in this case, Mr.

Speaker, are of vital concern to this Province. Surely the objective must be to afford adequate opportunity for a full and complete hearing and not to have a decision rendered within a specified time. 1 iJ 4 7

June 3, 1982 Tape 867 PK - 2 MR . MARSHALL : I feel quite sure there are many parties ~o court actions who would like matters co~sidered within their own time frame work but this is not available to them . We are advised in this case that no reasons were r~~dered by the court in setting the November 29th deadline . The court has obviously decided that the federal government was not only legally correct but was entitled to be gran ted its wish for early hearing . In our coun~ry what ~he Supreme Court of Canada states to be legal is legal.

However, there is no ~oubt that this action is not ln accord 1~ith cu stoM or prac tice,and we have ~he benefit of weighty and re spected opinion to this effect both within and without this Province. Finally, Mr . Speaker, Yhile we have to acknowledge the supreme court of Con :to<~ mus L m.1kc its deci sion on law, let there be no doubt in anybody's mind that it did not have to make this decision had not the reference and application been made to it by the federal government . To those journalists outside this Province l'lho have the habit and penchants of following the federal line on all matters / 18~ B

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 868 MR. MARSHALL : may I emphasize our referring the matter to the Supreme Court of Newfoundland is not an excuse for Ottawa's action as has been mooted from time to time by them. In fact, we made the provincial reference to attempt to preclude the federal government's bringing the issue to the Supreme Court of Canada and thereby circumventing the Supreme Court of this Province through the SIU case. AN RON. MEMBER: Hear, hear. SD - 1 MR.

MARSHALL: If the matter was to be resolved judicially, and we do not feel that this-we have always said it is the appropriate way to be resolved, but if it had to be resolved judicially, we felt,and we still do that we were entitled to a full hearing of our case by the highest court of this Province in accordance with Canadian practice. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. MARSHALL: Ottawa's attempt through the SIU case to circumvent the court of this Province has failed. It h~s now succeeded though in its actions and its actions will be long remembered by the people of our Province. In the meantime, Mr.

Speaker, let it be understood that this resource belongs to the people of this Province a.nd this administration intends to see that it is secured to them. AN RON. MEMBER: Hear, hear. MR. MARSHALL: Further statements will be made after Cabinet fully assesses the implication of this most regrettable turn of events. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. MARSHALL: I b~ve, Mr. Speaker, - I do not have copies for all members of the House because the statement was prepared over the lunch hour,but I am sure the Page will be able to Xerox them and distribute them. 1048

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 868 so -2 SOME !:!ON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. NEARY: The hon. Leader of the O:;:>position. '1-ihat we just heard, .Z.1r. Speaker, is another communique from the \var Cabinet. The only part of the hon. - SOME HON. MUffiERS: MR. SPEAKER: SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. Order, please! Oh, oh. ~m. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: ?he only part of the hon. c;ent)eman's ministerial statement that I agree with, Mr. Speaker, is the second las_t paragraph in which he said that the resource under the sea off our shores belongs to Newfoundland. That we agree \.,rith.

That is our position, it has al,qays been our position and always will be our position. But w)lat concerns me about the ministe~·s statement, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that they seem to have ruled out a negotiated settlement, they seem to have ruled that out completely. 'l'he hon. gent lcm<Jn in this stoLmncnt is conlimti n<1 1-ht• battle of the words and the battle of the courts. And something else that concerns me about it too, Mr. Speaker, is the tone of the statement, almost a vicious assau1t on the Supreme Court of Canada, close to an attack, Hr. Speaker, on the Supreme Court of Canada which SOME HON.

MEt\ffiERS : Oh, oh. MR. WARREN: That government is used to that. 105n

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 869 NM- l MR. NEARY: could very easily undermine the confidence of the people in the judicial system of this country. MR. WARREN: Yes. Right on. MR. NEARY: And there was also - I would say it was a lecture to the Supreme Court and then there was a condemnation of the journalists, the journalists outside of Newfoundland. This is something new now. Mr. Speaker, they seem now to be looking for somebody else to attack,so now they are going to attack Mainland journalists, journalists outside of the Province. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I can only repeat what we have said so often, is that in the kind of a mugs game that this government is playing nobody can win, Mr. Speaker. The only sane and sensible way to settle this matter is through negotiations. The hon. gentlemen remind me now of the Argentinians in Fort Stanley, they are getting hemmed in, they are getting surrounded, they are getting surrounded, Mr. Speaker. And every day we are going to have a communiqu~ from the war Cabinet. Mr.

Speaker, I repeat what I said yesterday and what I will keep repeating as long as the communiques last and that is let the provincial government withdraw their case from the Newfoundland Court and let the Government of Canada withdraw their case and sit down to the bargaining table and settle this tlhng through peaceful negotiations. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: And let me add one other thing, Mr. Speaker, let me add one other thing,that only today I was looking at the Heritaoe of the Sea, a document that was put out when Mr.

Moores was Premier of this Province; a copy was put in every household in Newfoundland ' telling the people that 1 B 51

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 869 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: we had a strong case, And I happen to think that we do have a strong case. So what are we worried about if we have a strong case? What do we have to fear? Is the hon. gentleman admitting that we have a weak case or is he just playing a little political - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: - is he playing little political games? Is he starting the federal election?

If we have a strong case let us slug it out and let us ?utmanoeuver them and outfox them, and let us fight for Newfoundland, instead of sitting over there day in and day out and whining and moaning and bawling and crying. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am very concerned over this. It seems to me that they have completely ruled out negotiations. MR. WARREN: That is right. Yes. MR. NEARY: And that is the only regrettable thing I see today in this whole affair, Mr. Speaker.

They have got themselves boxed in now and they do not know how to get out of it. MR. WARREN: Yes. They are into it. MR. NEARY: They have a mandate to negotiate. I heard the hon. gentleman yesterday, and I believe it was the Premier, they have a mandate to negotiate. The people of this Province gave them a mandate to negotiate. Now go and negotiate and get the thing settled. MR. WARREN: Hear, hear! Hear, hear! 185/

" June 3, 1982 Tape 870 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell}: Order, please! Before I recognize the hon. the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan}, I would like to welcome to the galleries today, Mr. Francis Corrigan, Principal of Stella Maris Central High, in TreDassey, in the district of St. Mary's -The Capes and twelve student assistants from the school. I welcome you to the galleries today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. SOME !ION. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, the Kirby Task Force, which was appointed by the federal government to look into the problems of the whole fishing industry in the Atlantic Provinces,has now lost substantial credibility with its recent action promoting a $2 million, six month bail out of the fish plant problem in St. Anthony in the district of the federal Cabinet minister, the Minister of Revenue (Mr. Rompkey}. This hand-aid remedy is supposed to be administered in the district of the federal minister, in this case, who made the announcement on )x ~h<tlf of the federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

LeBlanc) , the hon. '•7illiam Rompkey, Newfoundland's reJ?resentati ve in the federal cabinet. ~rr. Speaker, over the past number of months, this federal task force, the Kirby Task Force, has rejected applications for financial assistance from financially troubled Newfoundland fish processing firms. Not only that, Mr. Speaker, but this federal government task force refused to get involved with the specific but major problems in this Province's fishing industry, leaving the provincial government with 1 as .·i

June 3, 1982 Tape 870 EC - 2 MR . MORGJI.N : having to assist on its own twenty Newfoundland fish processing firms by means of $20 million in loan guarantees to enable these twenty fish companies to re -open thirty-seven fish plants all aro~d ~e Province. In other words, Mr. Spea~er, thirty-seve~ fish plants would not now be re-opened in Newfoundland i: it were not !or the Newfoundland Government acting alone . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. HORGAN: The reason whv it acted alone is hecause the Xirby Task Force refused to get involved . SOME HON • MEl-ffiERS : MR. MORGAN: provided this Rear, hear! Now, Mr . Speaker, we 1 n:, ~~

June 3,1982 Tape No. 871 ah-1 MR. MORGAN: financial assistance because as a provincial government we are firmly committed to the maintenance and development of our fi~hing industry for all the people of our Province. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR.MORGAN: We now have to ask is the federal task force and ·the federal government,which also has a large responsibility for fishery development in our Province,saying to the residents of such places as, Greenspond, Rant's Harbour, Salvage, Petty Harbour, Charleston, Triton, Burnt Island, Codroy, Tors Cove, Dildo, Flower's Cove, Chance Cove and other areas around the Province which would have seen their plants close this year if not for the financial a~istance provided by the Newfoundland Government , that thesepeople are not good Canadian citizens( If the federal government and the task force are not saying this well, Mr.Speaker, the question is why the discrimination?

Why the discrimiriation? MR. h~Al<.l'l: ~1R. MORGAN : Politics. Politics. Despite the federal task force refusal, Mr. Speaker, despite the federal government and federal task force refusal to help out other private sector fish processors around the Province,they have now decided to bail out the processing problem at St. Anthony. But they decided to do it in a way that is not acceptable to the Newfoundland qovernment, and over the long-term is not going to be in the best interest of the Newfoundland people and in particular the people of St. Anthony.

Instead of the federal government task force and the federal government helping with the request of the company,Fishery Products Limited- and ,by the way, Mr. Speaker, that company made a very firm request to the federal task force and to the federal minister and the federal government for more fish 1855

' June 3,1982 Tape No . 871 ah-2 MR .MORGAN : to be allocated to the St. Anthony operation. This is what the company has been seeking for the past n~~er of months . The federal government , through the Kirby task .force, is no\" forcing Fishery Products,the largest Ne~"foundland fish company we have in business in Newfoundland, is forcing th<tt company to give UF its plant and their processin g operation in St . ?~thony and pass it over to the federal government through a federal agency - and I use the term forcing without hesitat~on. Mr .

Speaker, the f.cc'lcral government's handling of this ~.o.·hole situation leaves much to be desired . • It leaves much to be desired and raises many concerns with respect to not only the future of the fishery in ~1e St. A.nthony area but the long-term future of the fishery in other areas of the Province . Consequently,we are calling on the federal MiLister of Fisheries , the hon. Romeo LeBlanc .who has yet to make a statement on this matter - ~~ . WARREN: A great job . MR.MORGAN : - we are calling on Mr. Michael Kirby ,the head of the task force appointed by the federal Cabinet, 'I 0 j6

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 872 so - 1 MR. MORGAN: and we are calling upon the hon. William Rompkey, Newfoundland's minister in the federal Cabinet who is directly involved in this situation; as well as, Mr. Speaker, others who are connected with or supporting the federal government on this matter,to provide the answers to the following questions. And, Mr. Speaker, these are important questions. Why is it that the federal government has not complied wjth Fishery Products' request for additional allocations of fish stocks to the St. Anthony plant?

Why is it that the federal government has not complied with the request to have additional fish stocks allocated to the St. Anthony plant? Why is it? MR. NEARY: They qave it already. MR. MORGAN: Well let me answer it, Mr. s~reaker. Is it because, Mr. Speaker, they have been all allocated to foreign fishing fleets? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. MORGAN: Is that the reason, Mr. Speaker? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) if they had a government, a pro\incial govern- ment that they could deal with, and a minister they could deal with. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, number two, why is it the federal government is refusing to directly subsidize a Drivate sector company, Fishery Products, with regard to their losses at St. Anthony? Why is it that they are refusing to directly subsidize the company, the private sector company? Why is it necessary for the federal government and the federal government Task Force to establish a federal agency, a federal Crown corporation, a federal company to take over the operations at St. Anthony? These are questions unanswered. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, why is it that this rather strange scheme - 1 0 57

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 872 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: Because they want to keep them out of the welfare lines. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, could the hon. gentleman - MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! MR. MORGAN: over on the Opposition side who likes to be ah:ays complaining about, when he is speakinq, being heard in silence, could you ask him, Mr. Speaker, to please remain quiet. rather strange scheme - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, why is it that this Oh, oh. A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! A point of order, the hon. Mr.

Speaker, my impression of the standing rules of this House is that a l1inisterial Statement can only be made on an urgent matter, something that is current MR. BARRETT: Sit down, boy . MR. NEARY: - no, a current important matter and it has to convey information. MR. BARRETT: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. 110RGAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN : MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. WARREN: (inaudible) are not important. And it has to convey information, Not important enough? Order, please! Where is your ~olleague for the area? Order, please! Down practicing law again2 Order, please!

And the minister - He is on television. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if the hon. gentleman is aware of it but he is breaking another 18Srl

June 3, 1982 Tape No . 872 so - 3 MR . NEARY: ru~e now, Mr . Speaker . You do not refer to a member 's attendance when you are speaking in this House . SOME HON . MEI'IBERS : MR . NEARY : to st~rt thDt ~arne - SOME HON • MEMBERS : MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : MR . NEARY : MR . SPEAKER: Oh , oh . Well, Mr. Speaker , if they wan t l·That is your point of order . Order , please ! - I will be very glad to - Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) rose on a point of order and the Chair is still waiting to hear that . MR . NEARY : The poi .nt of order, Mr . Speaker , is that the hon . qcntleman is not conveying information in his Ministerial Statement . 185~ ..

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 873 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: He asked a number of questions and I was in the process of giving the hon. gentleman the answer. For instance, one of the questions he put was, Why did the federal - SOME HON. MEMBER: What is your point of order? MR. NEARY: -Why did the federal government put direct funding into the St. Anthony Fish Plant and I said to keep the people cff welfare and to give them some source of employment this Summer. Now, if the hon. gentleman keeps asking questions MR. TOBIN: MR. NEARY: How about Fishery Products? instead of giving the information, Mr.

Speaker, then he is breaking the rules of the House. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition has not raised a valid point of order. The hon. Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) may continue with his statement,but I would ask all hon. members to let him be heard in silence. MR. MORGAN: protection of the Chair. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. MORGAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, ror Ll~ Hear, hear! Now, Mr. Speaker, yesterday in the House of Commons the minister stood on his feet and replied to a question from the Member of Parliament from St. John's East (Mr.

McGrath) and said that he had offered assistance to the Fishery Products company in St. Anthony and they had refused. He had refused to indicate to the House of Commons exactly what kind of assistance it was. It was not financial assistance. There was never any financial assistance offered by the federal government to Fishery Products in St. Anthony. Never, to this date. Never! MR. RIDEOUT: A misleading statement. 18611 "

.June 3, 1982 MR. MORGAN: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. MORGAN: Tape No. 873 What did they offer? Nothing. NM - 2 They offered to arrange for foreign fishing fleets to catch their quota allocated to Fishery Products for turbot off Labrador, and land it and process it in St. Anthony. MR. POWER: Shame: Shame! Shame: MR. MORGAN: What a big deal. What a big deal. MR. POWER: Shame! MR. MORGAN: Part of their own quota allocated to them, to arrange to have foreign countries, and foreign fleets come and catch that quota allocated to a Newfoundland company and land it and process it in St. Anthony.

That is the assistance offered to the company in St. Anthony. MR. STAGG: That is why the member for the Strait of Belle Isle is not here today. MR. POWER: Shame! Shame! Shame! MR. MORGAN: It is too bad the hon. gentleman for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) is. not down - he should be here in the House rahher than down practicing law, Mr. Speaker. He should be here in the House listening to the problems of his own riding. He appears once in a while and makes a big hullabaloo over the problems in St.

Anthony, the rest of the time he is down practicing law on Duckworth Street, not showing too much concern £or the people in St. Anthony. MR. STAGG: MR. MORGAN: A Ministerial Statement. Mr. Speaker, why is it that this new proposed federal agency, or corporation, why is it that this new proposed federal agency or corporation has not yet cont:CJ.cted the Newfoundland Government? We have not yet heard from this new proposed federal agency, this new proposed 1 8 61

June 3, 1982 MR. t~ORGAN : MR . NEARY: MR . MORGAN: the law is the la\~ . MR. SPEAKER (Rus~ell) : MR. MORGAN: Tape No. 873 NM - 3 federal corporation. What are you so sore about? But the fact is, Mr. Speaker, Order, please! Mr . Spe~~er, the law is the law . If you \-laD t to go fishing tomo ,rrow mor!ling you obtain a licence from the federal government . If you want to operate a processinq plant in Newfoundland you ob~in a licence from the Newfoundland Govern:nent . SOME EON. MEMBERS : MR . MORGAN: federal agency to date - MR. NEARY: Servants (inaudible) . MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : MR . MORGAN: Rear, hear!

But, fotr. Speaker, the new (Inaudible) the Public Order, please! Mr . Speaker, to date this new federal agency ~as chosen to ignore the law and ignore the Newfoundland Government. We have not yet heard from this new federal agency and we have not yet received 106/

... June 3, 1982 Tape No. 874 MJ - 1 ""'R . ,J • MORGAN: an application for a processing licence to carry out an oDeration in St. Anthony as of today, riqht now, on the 3rd of June, 1982 at 3:30 in the afternoon. Mr. Speaker, the biq ouestion is, what is the federal qo vcrnment 's plan., if indeed they do have one, to make the St. Anthony Plant viable and remain open after the six month arrangement expires? That is the question . MR. S. NF.AR .Y: He is not ooing to tell you. MR. MORGAN: Not going to tell me. MR. NF.ARY: Why should they tell you? lv!R.

MORGAN: Listen to the hon. gentleman and his good friend from Burnt Island has got a $200,000 loan quarantee from the Ne wfounaland government. MR. NEARY: And the hon. gentleman got a television business. MR. MORGAN: Listen, lv!r. Speaker, to the hon . '\orart over there. M~~- ~T!~IY.R (Russell) : Order, please! MR. MORGAN: Listen to him. MR. NEARY: (inaudiole) do not mind rocking the boat(inaudible) . MR. MORC:AN: Mr. SPeaker, the hon. gentleman does not like the facts and it hurts him. MR. NEARY: Tomorrow he will be wearing another hat. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, the answers to these questions should be provided immediately to the provincial government and to the fishing industry in Newfoundland, esoecially the private sector ~ecause,if not ,what is stopping the federal government from moving in next week or next month and forcing some other orivate sector company out of some other area of the Province who Find themselves in financinl difricultv? MR. NEARY: 1'.1R. MORGAN: Fish ulants in Nel.,.foundland. How about Burnt Island for a beginning? 1 a ~ 'J b ,I

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 874 MJ - 2 r~-q. 1\Jl\7\ ~v: Hear, hear! MR. J. MORGAN: Therefore, Mr. Speaker, as of today - MR. NEARY: You should get dm•m on your 1~.nees and thank them. ~R. MO~GAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman, would you ask him to keep quiet, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, as of today, we will be obtaining the opinions and views of the private sector in the fishing industry of this Province on this very important matter.

We will be obtaining it through resoonsible organizations , the Fish Trades Association, which reoresents all the larqer companies in the private sector,and also the independent fresh fis'h producers , which are the smaller medi urn sized companies involved in the Drocessing medium sector of the Provinr.r., CJ'~ttinq their opinions and views of this kind of action being taken by the federa~ government without consultation with the Newfoundland qovernnent here. H~. lv!A'R.SHALL: Shame, shame! ~R. MORGAN: Now, Mr.

Speaker, J '· 7ill close by saying that this kind of action by the federal government task force is an example of blatant political patronage. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: Blatant political patronage. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Right on, right on. Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: It is blatant political patronu.qe where the people, residents of thirtv-eight communities are not considered to be good Canadian citizens , sufficient enough to warrant federal qovcrnmcnt he1p. 1\ut on the~ nt·hc,r · hand, one community out of the whole Province is and that is an examole of blatant political patronage. 1064

,Tune 3, 1982 AN I-JON . NIEM BER : calJ that . Ml'l.. ,T. MORGAN: Tape No. 874 MJ - 3 Double action,that is what you Now, Mr. Speaker, as of this ~ft e rnoon ,at the time the House ooened~he Department of Pisheries had not received any inquiry, had not received any aoolication for a orocessing licence to carry on an operation at St. Anthony. 'l 0 6 s

June 3, 1982 Tape 875 PK - 1 MR. MORGAN: And, of course, it is clearly under the constitution thnt the proccssin~ sector of" the fishing in~ustry is under the clear jurisdiction and responsibility of t:.,e Provinces. The Provinces have clear jurisdiction with regard to deciding who can obtain a licence to process and operate a processing operation in the province. But to date,as of this afternoon,despite the fact that the announcement was made last Thursday by a federaJ minister, we have not haard from any one inquirin~ ~bout the po~~ibility of obtaining a licence to operate in St. Anthony. HR.

NEARY: Now you can sulk till the roof talls. MR. MORGAN: Now, Mr. Speaker, when and if an application is made, if the application is made later on this afternoon or tomorrow ,we will consider the application through the normal process. But what I am saying right now is that the arrogance - MR. NEARY: The Canadians can do what the PE'~ likes. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the guy is getting annoyed over here. Will you keep that worm quiet over there. MR. SPEAKER: (Russell) : MR. JI'I.ORGAN: MR. DINN: is at it again. MR. MORGAN: Order, please! Keep that little worm quite. The Harbour Le Cou Coo-Coo Mr.

Speaker what we arc sayin~ is that it is an example of pure arrogance on the part of the federal government to ignore -- the Newfoundland Government, sitting here as a government, on behalf of all the people of 1866

.... June 3, 1982 Tape 875 PK - 2 ~!R . MORGAN : Newfoundland, not even to consult us, number one, and number two, to say, • we are going to announce the reopening of the St . Anthony plant next Monday with or without a licence: HR. NEARY: Get to the ooint (inaudible) . MR . MORGAN: With · or without a licence . And we are saying right now, Mr . Speaker, ,~hen an application for a licence - SOME RON . MEl.ffiERS : Oh, oh! ~\R . SPEAKER (Ru ssell ): Order, please! MR . ~10RGJ\N : Mr .

Speaker, when the application is made for a licence , when the application is made and we are fully consulted and given all details we will deal with the application in a normal fashion . SOt-iE RON . MEMBERS : Right on! Right on! MR . ~10HGJ\N : Thank you , M:r: . Speaker . SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . SPEAKER : The hon . member for Terra Nova . MR . LUSH : Mr . Speaker, that has got to be the silliest, the foolishest , the most innocuous, the most ~logical statement I have ever heard in my - Mil. MOI~(;AN: "''ho Ont'!nnd C:h<~rlcston? --- -- -- ~m .

LUSH: I listened to the minister I never said a word, and I expect the minister to listen to me . I know it is going to be difficult . ~~lf'._R~f..!'J_;_ MR. LUSII : difficult . ~H~ . I'I]I'?QF>l : ------ -----· MR . SPE1\KER: He has not got sense enough . I know it is going to be He doss not have sense enough . Order, please ! 1867

June 3, 1982 MR. LOSii : emotion ar.d illogic . MR . NEARY: MR. LUSH: Tape 875 PK - 3 ~'>~r . Soeaker, it \va~ filled with nothing but Poison and venom . ! do not know what thl' point of the state:nent ''as other than another a~tack on Ottawa. ~~- Speaker, to suggest that the whole point of the minister's concern and anger and frustration seems to be because the federa~ government did not do it in the other areas . m~ . "'O~GAN: ~onavista Bav? Ll~ . Lti~P. : SOME HON . MEMBERS: flo•~ .-:ome -=he!_' rlid not do it in CharlP.ston in ?hev did notdo it in Charleston. r-That is wronq with Cl'larlP.ston? HR .

SPEAKER (Russell): Order , please! MR . LUSH : beginning. Mr. Speaker, this might be a r-taybe if the hon . members opposite could negotiate maybe this is the bogL~ing. t>lR . MORGAN: Thev refused Charleston, whv? MR . LUSB: Maybe they will start, Mr . Speaker . Maybe they will s ~ art . But, Mr. Speaker, to refuse the help in St. Anthony because it was not done in the other areas ~a~ to be silly, nothing short of being silly. 186H

J une 3, 1982 Tape 876 EC - 1 MR . LOSH: And when the member talks about political patronage, now that is a matter of the pot calling the kettle smut . MR . ·NEARY : --- · .... -- MR . LUSH: the reason - MR. MORGAN: MR . LUS!i: ~UL MORGAN: MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : MR . LUSH: That is right . Maybe, Mr. Speaker, that is Why did they not assist salvage? .Maybe it is the same - Did they assist salva~e? Order , please ! The minister knows I am making points, Mr . Speaker , and he does not wan·t to hear them .

Maybe it is the same reason why the hospital in Markland is going to be closed down and the one in Old Perlican kept open . MR. NeARY : Right on! Hear , hear! ~1R . LUSH : Maybe that is the reason, Mr . Speaker . Maybe it is the same reason, Mr. Speaker , why tht're is qoing to be no road work in Terra Nova district this year , but road work in districts across the way . Maybe that is the reas on why - MR . MORGAN: The poor member . MR . LUSH: Do not talk so silly , 'poor member '! Do not talk so silly. If I were no more efficient than you, I would pack up and go home . SOME RON . ME~1BERS : Oh, oh! MR .

SPEAKER : Order, please ! Order , please! MR . LUSH : Now that you are exposed,it tells how childish, hO\ol immature the statement was . I have said enough, Mr. Spea ker . I have said e11ough - the most immature, the most - MH . MORGAN: The incompetent member for Terra Nova. 18Gq

June 3, 1982 Tape 876 EC - 2 M~, LUSH: he talked about the member for the Strai~ (Mr. Roberts), Well, I think the member for the Strait has gone down for the official opening. I wonder whether the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) is going to be there? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: We are delighted, Mr. Speaker, that the federal government have moved in to open this plant. It is going to provide jobs for BOO people who otherwise would be on welfare this Summer. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, it is fine as long as this government is doing - p·oli tical patronage is fine as long as the members opposite are doing it but the minute someone else does it, Mr. Speaker, it is not the right thing. MR. MORGAN: Are you agreeing with political patronage? MR. LUSH: No. I admit that it exists here and this is why it is going on. As the Minister of Fisheries says, it is as right for that side as well. Mr. Speaker, I am not at all convinced, but I just wanted to demonstrate that if th2t is the reason, if it is political patronage, then it is a matter of the pot calling the kettle smut.

That is what it is, Mr. Speaker. But we are delighted, even though it is only band-a.id treatment. This government were not even going to apply the band-~id treatment. As a matter of fact, the minister asked in question number eight, What is the federal government's plan, if indeed they have one, to make the St. Anthony plant 1 0 7 11

-""- June 3, 1982 Tape 876 EC - 3 MR . LlJSR : viable and remain open after six months? It is the same question, Mr . Speak~r - ~rn . MORGAN: You need someone to explain it to you that ~s what is \-TTC'>n<T .... ~. -1:1-- vou . r.m. SPEAKER (.Russe ll} : · Order, please! MR. LUSH: It is the same question as the hon . the member fQr the dist rict has asked the Premier and he is waiting for - 'i~hat plans do the provincial government have? He has received no reply yet . Mr.

Speaker, to accuse the - and to make political points out of the fact that the bon . the Minister of Revenue (Mr . ~omnkey} made the announcement, how silly! Ho\o~ silly ,to 1:-..ear this hon . Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan} makes that statemen t ! He \vould like to mak,e statements for every Cabinet minister over there 1 0 i 'l

June 3, 1982 Tape No . 877 ah-1 MR. LUSH : every cay of the week. How silly! How 5illy! t·1R. t<IORGAN: Give away the fish to Russia and Spain and Portugal and then the (inaudible). MR. ;:.usa : childish. So innocuous, so i~~acure, so ~1R. Nt·:I\RV : l'ih<ll .1hout· l:h\' t'l\1h li\:, ·n•· •• 1 11 t.ttlinl.\11: •.' ~m. SPEAKER (RUSSELL): Order, please! ¥.R. NORGA~: Give h . away . MR . LUSH: ~o wonder, ~~. Speaker, when you see that level of performance that we have seen toc!.'ty, ,,., wonder they are not ge-cting on 1dth the federal government.

No wonder we are not getting any better, when \ve see that level of competence, that level of pec~ormanc~, th~t we nave seen here today with that silly,innocuous illogical statement . SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : Order, p~ease! Before I recoqnizc the hon. Minister of Forests, Resources <1nd L.:~nd:; Htr. I'<MCl) I wuuld t ike• l•l welcome to the gallery a delegation from the Point Leamington town council with Mayor Saunders and councillors Thompson, Elliot and Woodworth. I welco~e you to the galleries toJay. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! HR. SPEi\KER: Resources and Lands .

SOME HON . l·lEMBERS : MR . PONER: can play the game too. The han . ~linister of Forests, Oh, oh! Mr . Speaker - that is right. \-le SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh , oh! lofi. SPEAKER: Order, please! 1-!R . POWER: :otr . Speaker, over the luSL tl•n 1f3i/

June 3,1982 Tape No . 877 ah-2 MR . POWER: years the number of applications for Crown land has ris.en from approximately 1,500 to 6, 000 p~r year. This represents :-·1 increase _ of 300 per cent . In terms of the volume, the largest single demand on "1 1" Crown land resource is for recreational cottage lots . Last year the demand ~mounted to approximately 2,000 applications or 36 per cent of all applica t ions recei ved . On any given business day my department res ponds to in excess of 200 enquiries the majority of which concern the avail<Jbi!ity of lots for cottage purpos~s .

The difficulty experienced by the general public in locating suitable and acc eptable land for such a purpo s e is reflected by th.e fact that the approval rate over the past ten years ha$ dropped rrorn 7 5 per cent to 50 per cent . The simple truth of the matter is , Mr . Speaker, that the available supply of accessible and acceptable land for cottage purposes within commuting distance of major urban centers is rapidly diminishing .

I am plea sed t o announce that government is respondi ng to i ts respo nsibi l ity in this regard by undertaking the planning and develop ment t1f 150 lrYts vtithin i'l sev~nty mil~ radius of St . John ' s . The proposed developments are located at Hawco Pond in E>eer Pa.rk , Goulds Pond nea r the Tran s • Canada High\"aY, near nodge water Line , and Peak Pond , which is west of Whitbourne . While government has alloca ·ted S216 , 000 a s seed funding for road construction and ~ot surveys, the full cost of devel opment \•Til l be recovered from the applicants 10i ~

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 878 so -1 MR. POWER: prior to leases being issued. Any subsequent service requested by the leaseholders will only be considered on a cost recovery basis through appropriate rent increases. Under this programme, Mr. Speaker, the lots will be allocated by public draw. Applications will not be accepted until such time as the administrative details have been finalizec and a notice advertised through the media. Upon completion of the programme this year, my department will be evaluating the results,particularly in relation to demand for lots and public acceptance of the project.

In that respect, the project is a pilot effort which could be expanded to other major urban areas of the Province as the reed may arise. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear. The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: '1r. Speaker, I want to respond to that short and sensible ministerial statement, in comparison with the previous one. MR. WARREN: Hear, hear. MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker, the minister just finished saying that the number of applications has increased by 300 per cent and I believe that is true.Because even though the efficiency, I think, has improved considerably in the Division of Crown Lands over the last several years, even though it has improved considerably over the last several years, you know, there is still, I think, some upgrading there to be ~one. Becauseit was only yestcr~ny that I checked on a Crown Land application,on behalf of a town council,that had been sent a month ago.

Apparently it was sitting on somebody's desk without moving for nearly a month, you know, on~ when 1 checked on it, of course, the proper documentation was sent out. I would say that 1 0 i 'I

.14. June 3, 198 2 TApe No. 878 SD-2 MR . CALLAN : for us on this side, at least, that checking on applications for Crown land and so on is among the largest - not the largest, but it is a large number ur the co.lls th.:~t we receive, fl:om especially the rural areas of this Provi nce . Regarding the cottage lots, Mr. Speaker, out around Peak pond, the area that I am quite familiar with, it is right back of my own home town , 1 am not sure if it is the best system to be used or not, this draw system .

It seems to me that, you know, for example, if t wanted to get a cottage lot on the Peak Pond I would prefer to have some of my friends next door rather than somebody from St . John 's or somewhere else that 1 do not know . MR. Bl\RRETT : MR . CALLAN : a lot any\o~ay because Do not be so (inaudible) . I probably will not get a chance to get the St . John 's people, like the member for St . John 's West (Mr . Barrett), will have them all taken up by pork barrelling and everything else before we q~t a chance . nut, Mr . Speaker, that is the only response 1 w.:~nt to make . ~m . YOUNG : Sit down . --- I'm .

CALLAN : I will sit down now, Mr . Speaker, at the request or the />1inister of Public Works (.Hr . Young) \o~ho own s the chairs and the desks and so on, yes . />1R . \'IARREN : Oh , oh! 1 () i ~.

June 3, 1982 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. NEARY: Tape No. 878 so - 3 ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Premier who is a rather infrequent visitor to this House 1 spends a half an hour or so here now on a daily basis, I ., 8 7 fi

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 879 NM ~ 1 MR. NEARY: am forced to direct my question to the hon. Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshall). Mr. Speaker, we have not heard too much about the Lower Churchill Falls Development of late, and I am wondering, Mr. Speaker, if the administration still intends to pursue the development of the Lower Churchill, or is the project in a state of limbo for an indefinite period, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) MR. MARSHALL: The hon. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, we still very much intend to pursue the development of the Lower Churchill. Before the Lower Churchill can be developed, Mr.

Speaker, there has to be the ability to be able to market the power that will be generated there. Now this involves a power corridor. There also has to be the capacity to finance the project, but I assure the hon. member that we are working on it, and we are working on it assiduously. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. Well, Mr. Speaker, one of the obstacles in the way of the development of the Lower Churchill is about to be removed.

As han. members know there is a bill that has gone through second reading, when the matter was debated in principle in the House of Commons, to force the Province of Quebec to give Newfoundland a power corridor across the Province of Quebec. And as soon as that bill is signed, and becomes the law of Canada, which should be very soon, then that obstacle will be removed.

So then will the hon. gentleman tell us now what plans this government are making in anticipation of the Power Corridor Act becoming the law of Canada in the foreseeable future i' When it hecomes law, which should be pretty soon, are we ready to roll then with the development of the Lower Churchill? 1iJ/7

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 879 NM - 2 MR . SPAKER (Russell): The hon. President of the Council. MR . MARSHALL: .t-tr . Speaker, \·then this law is enacted a!'ld we see that there is great pressure beinq brought to bear for the purpose of modifying it or holdinq it back and we have to \'lait to see to/hethcr it is enacted first, and we certainly anticipate - 1-1e not only anticipate we demand that it be put through to give us equal rights as Canadians.

Now ~~hen that is done that is going to give us the right to make an application to the National Energy Board of Canada, which we are in the process of preparinq nov: in anticipation of the bill going through. At that point in time we wi 11 th~"l proceed to make our application, .. .,hen. as I say, the bill is through, But I think that people should understand - the people of the Province should understand as well,that it is not completely through then .

Because under the bill that is here and I read subsection 39 (2) because I happen to have a copy of it, "The board may," it says, .. ,.,.i th the approval of the Governor in Counci 1 , make regulations concerning the design, construction, operation and abandonment of a pipeline and providing for the 1o7fi

June 3, 1982 Tape 880 EC - 1 t-1R . ~1ARSHALL : protection of property and the environment and the safety, etc. The same thing applies with respect to the transmission lines . So really, we have to make an application to the National Energy Board and then that application will have to be approved by the federal Cabinet,or the findings of it . Now , when you come down to matters of environmental protection , legitimate environmental protection , obviously the Province of Quebec has the right, as well as any other province, to voice these .

But we would certainly hope that our efforts to huve a line are not going to be th\-larted, even after the legislation is in place,by spurious questions raised both at the National Energy Board and within the federal Cabinet with respect to these matters of environmental design -and design in the course of the line itself . Because obviou sly , this is an area, as we all know, where under the guise of legitimate concern , the \vill of the people of this Province can be thwarted . But, as I say, we will meet that situation as it occurs .

The present course is, '"hen this bill is enacted - in anS\-'er to the hon. gentleman 's question -we will be making an application to the National Energy Board and, of course, that application will have to be considered by the board and also by the federal Cabinet. we are ready to pursue on but with what speed is going to depend, Mr. Speaker, on the co-operation that we receive from the federal organs of government and their various boards . we trust that the co-operation will be reasonable . 10i::J

June 3, 1982 Tape 880 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman cannot answer a question sensibly without squirting his venom at OttavTa, his poison at Ottawa again. Mr. Speaker, let me ask the hon. gentleman this: Is the administration now in a position to make an application to the ·1 8 8 II

June 3,1982 Tape No. 881 ah-1 MR.NEARY: National Energy Board. Is the first step to discuss this matter with the province of Quebec and then,at the same tjm~, sjmultu.ncously nc<Joliate with the people who are going to buy the power." And these two rounds of negotiations could take months and possibly years. Could the hon. gentleman tell us if all the data and all the information is gathered so that the government,once the power corridor becomes the law of Canada, that this administration here will be ready to move quickly?

Or is it going to take several years before we get around to doing anything with the Lower Churchill? MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Council. MR.MARSHALL: The hon. President of the The answer to it is , yes. The government is preparinq and will be prepared to move very quickly with its application to the National Energy Board. It is being worked on right now and it has been worked on for several months. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : A final supplementary. The hon . Leader of the Opposition.

MR.NEARY: Could the hon. gentleman tell the House how much of the power to be generated on the Lower Churchill and the Muskrat Falls will be for export, and how much will be kept in Newfoundland and Labrador? MR.SPEAKER: MR.MARSHALL: Hon. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, we will use as much .1s we necd.For Ll ccrto.in period of time there will be surplus power and that is why it has been difficult to develop the Lower Churchill, because we cannot use all of its output at the present time for our own purposes.

But suffice it to say the portion that we will . be prepared to sell we will be sellin:q on short-term contracts with escalation clauses on them so that future people in this 10bl

June 3,1982 Tape No . 881 ah-2 MR . MARSHALL : Province and their children will not be deprived of their rightful heritage to their resources. SOME HON.MEMBERS : MR.N:EARY : Speaker . MR.SPEAKER(Ru ssell ): MR.NEARY: Hear, hear! A final supplementary, Mr . The hen . Leader or lhc Opposition . I have ~,y number of supplementaries I want to ask the hon. gentleman but some of my colleagues want to ask other questions on other matters. I want to ask the hon. gentleman to give us an updating on the cost of the construction, the cost of developing the Lower Churchill power and the p01•er on the Huskrat Falls?

The l.:tsL figure we hild, 1 believe, was in the vicinity of S3 billion and that was a couple or three years ago,and with the escalation in the cost and inflation and so forth and the interest rates,could the hon . gentleman nO\~ give us a ballpark figure of \-/hat it \\•ill cost to develop these two soun:·•'!'i of electricity? MR .SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council . MR. MARSAHLL : Mr . Speaker, in the vicinity of the amount that was indicated two or three years ago plus the amount of allowance for inflation and increased interest cos ts. MR.LUS!i: Mr. Speaker . 1aa1

June 3, 1982 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Tape 882 PK - 1 The hon. member for Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn). I want to pursue some questions that I pursued this morning in Committee. However, to give some background to bon. members who might not be familiar with the subject matter , and possibly members of the press,I want to probably just ask a few questions that I asked the minister this morning just to get started.

The questions are relating to the Dust Study Committee or the committee to study the levels of dust in Labrador West some months ago. And just to get the thing started I wonder if the minister could explain to the hon. members how this Committee was structured? And when its study will be completed? And how much it will cost? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. ~IR. DlNN: Mr. Speaker, the dust study in Western Labrador was started approximately September 1979. It was not started in September but negotiations started in September of 1979. In September 1980,1 believe,the team was in place.

An estimate of cost at that time was deter~ined. Before the study qot underway we got tentative approval from the unions in Western Labrador and the companies in Western Labrador to set up a tripartate committee of labour, management, and government. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. DINN: comes down to. Three parts to that ere managed. That is what 'Tri' basically The three parties involved basically agreed that the unions would participate financially, on the basis of a nominal fee,because it was going to be a fairly costly operation , and the companies and the government would come in on the remainaer of the cost.

And by government we had 1 G b :-1

June 3, 1982 Tape 882 PK - 2 MR . DINN : determined that che Workers' Compensation Board.who have funds for the purposes of studies etc. into occupational health and sa fety investigations,woulc provide the government'~ shur~ whatever that was determined by formula. So we have discussed tha t. the tripartite committee. The study was put in place. \•1e had a huge team of experts .probably one of the best groups SOME BON . !-1EMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . DINN : -of experts ever gotten together for a ~tudy or thi~ n~turc. 'l'he sludy '!:> cou•pll'lv.

It concluded about the end of May but it has not been compiled nor has the report been forwarded to government. The report is due-the last estimate of the report was that the report would be due to government or in my hands by about the middle of July. The cost estimates are about the same as they hD d started out to be,about $2.4 million . Since that point in time and I realize I am taking up a lot of time of the Question Period, MR. DOYLE: That is okay. MR. LUSH: He is very (inaudible} . MR. DINN : It is a fairly important subject . Since that point in time the \·iorkers' Compensation 1udL

.Tune 3, 1982 Tape No. 883 MJ - 1 MR. J. n~~~= Board have paid for the cost of the study. r-;re have talked to the unions .. By the nominal fee we meant, .~·:~:he time,about$10,000 per local,but we have whittledthat down to about$5,000 per local and we cannot get an agreement from th0 intcrnCJ.tional neople with the Steel Workers' Union to pay their SS,OOO share. So, we are still negotiating that but we have not qotten much of an agreement there.

The Iron Ore Companv of Canada itself has sent in approximately $250,000 and indicate that when the formula is finalized and when the details are finalized that they will participate as generously as they can. And, vou know, I think it should be noted and I think the government :;llnul <I I h;1nk th<'m for comi n0 to thl' tahl e onc'l neqoti.atinq in that soiri t. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~~R. DINN: Wabush Mines itself has refused to participate financially to this point in time.

I think the hiq point that they make is that they understood that the unions would participate because they have full participation on the triPartite committee and that tripartite commmittee had basicallv controlled what was to be studied in the seven roint nroqram. ~hey feel that the unions should participate, even though it is only a nominal figure. So up to this point in time they have indicated - MR. S. NEARY: (Inaudible) flaunting the rules now . N!R. DTNN : Well, Mr, Speaker, if the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. S. Neary) does not want the answer,then I can sit down. MR. N. DOYLE: Good answer. MR.

DINN: And maybe the hon. the member for 'f'0rra Nova (Mr. T . Lush) does want the answer. MR. SIMMS: Right on. MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. 188:1

June 3, 1982 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Nova. MR. T. LUSH: MR. S. NEARY: ~R. LUSH: Tape No. 883 MJ - 2 The hon. the member for Terra Well, Mr. Speaker, I am shocked and - Dismayed. -dismayed to hear that news, as I was this morning in Committee, that the Wabush Company has refused to pay any ~oney to this point in time. Now the question to the minister is, was there any agreement - when this Committee was set up, was any agreement on the formula then, at th2t point in time,as to how much each group would be required to pay? MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. the Hinister of Labour an<l Manpower. MR. J. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, what the hon. member would know and should know is that at the time no agreement was struck for one basic reason and that is that the two people that were involved - I think that the health and safety of the people in Western Labrador is very important and that the study should have started when it did. It started sixteen years too late. MR. S. NE}\_RY: (Tn<HHlihlo) . MR. DINN: If the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (111r. S.

Neary) had been concerned when the mines were started in Western Labrador,or if the previous, previous, previous administration had been concerned they would not have the dust problems they have down there now, 111r. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Right, on! SOME HON, MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DINN: And I would appreciate beinq able to answer the question without interruptions from the han. the Leader of the Opposition, the in-House Leader. MR. NEARY: Okay Bugs Bunny. 1udfl

June 1, 1982 Tape No. 883 MJ - 3 MR. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker, there was no asreement at the time as to who would participate in the funding. I think the hon. member may be shocked, he was shocked this morninq and he is still in a state of shock. I do not think he should necessarily be too concerned,because basically what is qoinq to haopen is the Workers' Compensation Board will oav for this studv and the mining companies will 1 u d 7

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 884 SD - 1 MR. DINN: pay for it through the backdoor by assessment. So they will pay for the study one way or another. I was hoping that we would get co-operation and we have from the Iron Ore Company of Canada. And we hope to qet co-operation from Wabush Mines,but they will pay for it either by assessment through the Workers' Compensation Board,or they will pay for it up front. I would have hoped that because this is a specific study and it is isolated to two companies in Western Labrador,that those two companies would pay for or assist to pay for that study up front.

Now if they do not pay for the study they will pay for it through assessment. So I do not think the bon. member should get overly concerned or go into a state of shock. There is treatment for that .but I can assure the hon. member that the companies will pay for the study. I congratulate the Iron Ore Company of Canada for coming forward and I hope that Wabush Mines will, over a pr1·iod of time, come forward and pay for their share of the study. An~ of course, the important thing is the health and safety of the people in Western Labrador.

The study will be in, for the hon. member's benefit, it will be in by mid-July and I hope that it will outline not only the problems but the answers to some of the problems so we can get on with fixing up the dust problem in Western Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Hear, hear. Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Final supplementary, the hon. Mr. Speaker, I do not undcrc;t<Jnd this assessment bit. The minister says that he would prefer that the company pay up front.

Well,if that is what the hon. minister prefers,that they pay up front, and I suggest 'I 0 iJ H

June 3, 1982 Tape No . 884 so - 2 MR . LUSH : that is the only way he is going to get his money is if that company pays up front, so can the ministc~ indicate what steps he has taken or what steps he plans to take to ensure that that company pays up front? ~iR. NEARY: Right on . MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : MR . DINN : The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower . Mr. Speaker, obviously the hon . member is in a state of shock and does not understand . I guess it is because of his state of shock.

But the f;~ct of the m«ttor is,thut the Workers ' Compensation Board - there is no money going from government to support the Workers' Compensation Board . I mean, it is not a matter of government paying the Workers' Compensation Board to pay compensation to workers in the Province . What happens is that assessments - companie s are assessed in the Province and they pay into the Workers ' Compensation Board and with those funds the Worker s' Compensation Board do ., 0 d !-!

June 3, 1982 Tape 885 EC - l MR. DINN: certain things. They pay out compensation, they do studies. They started a study, for example, in Baie Verte, and because the mine temporarily closed down, the study was deferred. That study is funded 100 per cent by the Workers'Compensation Board and, of course, .that study will be paid for by the board and, as a result, be paid for by companies in the Province. It will not be paid for by government. So I do not know where the hon. member would have difficulty in understanding that. Hon. members .know that the Workers' Compensation Board is self­ supporting.

They collect money through assessment and they pay out money through compensation and in other ways. MR. NEARY: That is (inaudible) . !1R. DINN: Well, I will give it to the han. the Leader of the Opposition, if he wants, in baby talk, but most other hon. members understand. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: The hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, I was going to ask the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) or the Minister of Health (Mr. House) a question. Neither one of them is here, so let me ask the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Dawe), at what point will the Minister of Transportation be in a position to table the annual roads programme list, as has been done in the past couple of years? I notice, for example, that over the past several weeks there have been a lot of tender calls in various newspapers. 169{1

June 3, 1982 Tape 885 EC - 2 MR. CALLAN: t'lhen will the minister be in a position to table the complete list sho"Yiing the road allocation per district as per at least the previous past three years? MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . the Minister of 'l'ransportation . MR . DAWE: Mr . Speaker , I am very proud of the fact that this year we were able through pre -tendering in the transportation sector to let a lot of contractors star·t t0 work early. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear , hear ! MR . DAWE: As has been done in the past , Mr .

Speaker , as soon as the final allopation of funds and the determination of \-lhere they will be spent has been decided upon , there wil l be a list made and pres ented to this hon . House . SOME liON . MEMBERS: MR. CALLAN : MR . SPEAKER: the member for Belle vue . MR . CALLAN: Bear , hear ! A supplementary, Mr . Speaker . A supplementary , the hon. Mr . Speaker, pending the arrival of that list which will pretend t .o do one thing and obviously do another, could I ask the minister ·1 8 j I

June 3, 1982 Tape 886 PK - 1 MR. CALLAN: then if it is possible for individual members, elected members of this House of Assembly to find out through conversation, telephone or whatever, whether or not there will be any funds expended in their districts this year,while we await the list on paper? MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Transportation. MR. DAWE: Dream on my colleague. The han. Minister of Mr. Speaker, from time to time hon. members of this House come in and present their concerns and we talk about various projects in their districts and whether, in fact,the funding will be forthcoming.

It is very difficult sometimes, but the~atter of a phone call,to find out exactly where the funds are going to be expended. I will certainly welcome an opportunity to speak with the han. gentleman about any concerns he has in his district,as T have with u number of other hon. gentlemen and ladies in this House. MR. CALLAN: MR. DAWE: you go now - MR. SIMMS: they would not know. MR. DAWE: l17here is your office? Well,now, Mr. Speaker, there lie has only been down there four r t'i1 r~;, - the hon. gentleman does not even know where the office is. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

DAWE: So I doubt very much if I can help with some of his other concerns. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. 1892. Hear, hear! A supplementary, I1r. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon.

June 3, 1982 Tape 886 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: The trouble is the hon. gentleman has two offices at taxpayers' expense, Mr. Speaker, and we do not knowwhich one he is using. I would like to ask the hon. gentleman, he just reminded me there when he said han. members should approach his department -· will the people in Grand Bay \rifest who have been approaching the han. gentleman's department now for seven years, seven years religiously and faithfully they have sent - MR. CALLAN: I spent seventeen. MR.

NEARY: petitions, telegrams, I have written the minister every year, sometimes twice a year, th~ee times a year for seven years about the three mile stretch of road leading from the Trans-Canada Highway to Grand Bay West. MR. r.ORGAN: Of Provincial-wide urgency is the question, of Province-wide urgency. MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, this promise was made in 1975 by the Tories,in the e~ection campaign in 1975, and nothing has been done with that road. They have not carried out that promise that was made back in 1975.

Would the hon. gentleman indicate if there will be any paving done on the road to Grand Bay West in this current fiscal year? ~1R. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I have already answered that question. I indicated that as soon as the final list of projects have been determined a list will be made up and presented to this han. House. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my question ;is to the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) also. Yesterday 189:-l

June 3, 1982 •rape 886 PK - 3 MR. WARREN : I asked the minister a question concerning the shorta~e of food along the Labrador Coast. In listening to CBC radio this morning,! understand the minister is waiting for word back from EMO. Has the minister received a report back from EMO? And is the situation in Black Tickle and Port Hope Simpson rectified? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Transportation . t-1R . DAWE : The hon . Minister of Mr.

Speaker, my department received a phone call the day before yesterday, late in the afternoon, and as is the usual case with these requests,it ili referred to r.merqency Measures . !t was determined that there was a possible emergency and this was done . In the meantime, Mr. Speaker, through the good ~races of the ~inist~r of Rur41, Agriculture, and Na=thern Development (Mr . Goudie), his department had already been apprized of the situation, action had been taken, and it is my understanding that food supplies were supplied six o'clocl' yesterday afternoon. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 1884

June 3,1982 MR.WARREN: MR.!>Pf·:/\I<Im (Russell): for Torngat Mountains. MR. SIMMS: Tape No. 887 ah-1 A supplementary. 1\ supplementary. Tho hon. member Just in time for supper. MR. WARREN: Mr. Sneaker, this aov.,rnT{l .ent is noted for band aid treatment. I understand there were so~e 700 pounds of freight taken into Black Tickle, enough for just yesterday evening. In fact today they are still out of milk. so, Mr. Speaker, I am asking the minister now is he going to continue with band aid treatment or is he going to consider this an emergency?

Is he going to consider making arrangements through his department,with two helicopters and aircraft in Goose Bay at the taxpayer's expense, to move some freight into Black Tickle and Port !lope Simpson where the people are in need at the present time? MR. SPEAKER: MR.DAWE: The hon. Minister of Transportation. Mr. Speaker, there is a programme in place. This government through my department has been subsidizing the supply of food supplies to the coastal Labrador communities to the extent of about, I think, $60,000 in the past fiscal year to supplement the cost of shipping in food.

This programme is ongoing and is available. The request for assistance has to come from the suppliers and the various community interest groups which has been done in this case 1and it will be assessed on ~n individuol basis. If there is a need, Mr.Speaker, based on the assessment of government departments that are doing it and we can assist,we certainly will. But the fact that it is a band aid treatment, I think, is a little misnomer. We have been assisting with the subsidy associated with supplying food supplies to those communities for a long period of time and will continue to do do. MR.

SIMMS: Hear, hear! •j 8 8 ~

June 3,1982 Tape No. 887 ah-2 MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for Torngat Mountains, a final supplementary. MR.WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary. Just for

preamble, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Rural Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie) who knew of the situation on May 25th and it was only just yesterday at two o'clock that his department acted,and it was only by a response froJll. Blu.ck Ti ckl,~ and throunh this Opposition in the House that they finally got action. Now, Mr. Speaker, my question to the minister is that for twenty-one days the two businessmen in that community - the two businessmen have had freight in St.

Anthony but due to the fact of break-up where there is no aircraft available on floats to land in Black Tickle ,and due to the fact that the minister does have two helicopters stationed in Goose Bay,surely goodness the minister should consider this an necessity and make the arrangements to get this freight in St. Anthony transferred to Black Tickle for the sake of the people in that community. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: The only thing I find difficult about the questioning, I suppose, Mr.

Speaker, is the fact that it is not being asked by the member responsible for that particular community but I understand he is not - AN HON. MEMBER: Now that is not fair. 1 B 8 6

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 888 SD - 1 rm. !l~_I\RY: ----·- He is in New York. He iq awav on business. MR. DAWE: Yes - so I understand. Mr. Speaker, there are programmes, there are procedures, in place that have been met in this particular situation as have been met in other similar situations in past years - MR. RIDEOUT : He is going to try to rais~ ~ $100 million bond while he is sitting down ther~. MR. DAWE: and this government will continue to honour its obligation to the people of coastal Labrador by providing assistance and emergency service when and if deemed necessary. /\N I! ON.

MI•:MJ3ER: Good answer. r.0od minister. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) is still not in the House perhaps I can ask the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) would he confirm or deny that approximately a year ago un 01 dl~r went out rrom the Department of Social Services to the effect that girls under the age of eighteen living with their parents and not on social assistance would not be helped through the Department of Social Services - pregnant girls under the age of eighteen?

Is that true or false? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: t-1r. Speaker, the answer to that is no. I can neither confirm or deny that. The hon. the Minister of Social Services is obviously - I know he is on very important business because he had to go out and make a telephone call. We will certainly take notice of that question and bring it to the attention of the hon. minister and I know he will be happy to answer it when he comes back into the House. ., 0 9 7

June 3, 1982 l~R. CALLAN : MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : for Bellevue. HR. CALLAN: Tai?e No. 888 so- 2 Supplementary then, Mr. Speaker . Supplementary, the hon. m~~er Mr . Speaker, perhaps in che Nay of a supplementary then the minister can also take note of the situation that is existing now, that apparently there are people who are on or \.;ere being looked after by Social Services prior to this directive from the Department of Social Services even though they may be sixteen or seventeen, and are still being helped.

In other words, they are not considered guardians because they were under the care of Social Services before the directive \.,rent out but anybody coming on new cannot get any help . Perhaps the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) can also ask the minister to explai~ this discrepancy. You know, if you are considered a g~ardian of your parents under the age of eightee~, are ycu or are you not? •j 0 ~ t1

June 3, 1982 Tape 889 EC - 1 MR. CALLAN: How can you treat two different situations - or the same situation completely different? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, again I say, I take notice of it but I just caution the House, I do not necessarily say - the hon. gentlemun has asked a question which may or may not be true. It constitutes also a statement. The only thing I will say to the House is that I will certainly take notice of it but we shall not take the questions "statements" of the hon. member as being the gospel.

They may be the gospel but we will have to look into it and we will respond accordingly. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I am dissatisfied with the answer. I wish to debate it on the Late Show later this afternoon. MR. loUSII: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, taking my lead from the statement made by the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) today where because in certain communities that the federal government did not assist the fish plants and went on to conclude that the government must be considering that these people are not good Canadians - taking my lead from there, I want to ask the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) with whom I have been struggling for the past while to qct roads paved in my district, and indeed for the past seven years with other ministers to get roads paved in my district, I wonder what time the minister 1BS~

June 3, 1982 Tape 889 EC - 2 MR. LUSH; is going to announce projects for the Terra Nova district to let the people there know that they are good Newfoundlanders and that the minister recognizes their contribution to the economy of this Province? SOME HON. MEMBERS ; MR. SPEA.KER (Russell) : Transportation. MR, DAWE: Hear, hear! The hon. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, the constituents in Terra Nova district do not need me or anyone else to tell them that they are good citizens, they already know that themselves. And I am sure they do not need the help of the hon. member to bring that point forward.

I have already answered the question, Mr. Speaker, and indicated that when the lists u.rc ready they wi J l bt' presented to the hon. House. SOME HON. HEHBERS: Hear 1 hear! MR. CALLAN: When? How soon? Tomorrow by leave: MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Terra Nova, a supplementary. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, the minister says 'when the list is ready'. I am reading in the papers now about certain tender calls and this sort of thing, so the list must be ready. Can the minister indicate what is going on? Is the list partially ready?

Can he bring us in a partial list or is he going to wait until all the monies are gone? MR. SPEAKER: Transportation. MR. DAWE: The hon. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, since ahout a couple of months ago now, when the Premier announced the pre-tendering of a number of highroad construction programmes, as well as construction in other departments, 'I~ D n

.June 3, 1982 Tape 889 EC - 3 MR . DAWE : in Ho using and Municipal Affairs, we have been going ahead with some projects that have been prepared through engineering studies and estimates and so on, and we have been continui.ng .,.,i th this progr arr me ,much to the pleasure of the construction industry which has been helped this way and to the people who are employed subsequently by the companies . And we are continuing to do this .

When I indicated that a list is being prepared , there is , of course , a s always , some funding available that has not already been committed through this pre -tendering process, and when that complete list is ready, both the projects that are ongoing now and are being tendered , and the final list , the ones that are not alre ady earmar ked and iron clad , then we will be presenting the full list to this hon . House . 19 ;:;

June 3, 1982 Tape no. 890 NM - l SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Order, please: The time for the Question Period has expired. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Public ~\forks. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Report of the C.A. Pippy Park Commission and in doing so I would like to commend the Chairman and the other members of the Committee for the splendio work they are doinq. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. YOUNG: A good park. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: Order number two, Committee of Supply.

On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please: Head I - Consolidated Punds. Now I wish to bring to everyone's attention before we get started that all of these heads and sub­ heads under this CoLsolidated Funds are statutory except for 105-02 which is non-statutory, which will be the only one actually voted on. DR. COLLINS: The hon. the Minister of Finance. Mr.

Chairman, Consolidated Fund Services - this particular head is concerned mainly with servicing the public debt and also concerned with the retirement situation, employee retirement arrangements. I might just read the note for the benefit of hon. members of Committee as to this particular head. 1 8 Li 2

June 3, l982 Tape No . 890 NM - 2 DR . COLLINS: Expenditures related to the provincial de bt are provided , the major portion of \·lhich is related to interest payments on outstanding debenture debt, treasury bills , Canada Pension Plan loans , and various l oans from the Gover nment of Canada . The expenses of borrowing additional funds, banking and agent fees are also include d . In addition debt payments on various government bu i ldings inclusive of interest and principle payment s on the debt of the Crown building corporations are made .

These expenditures are offset in part by interest navments on the temporary investment of surplus funds and various loans made by qovernment, and, as I sa~ also employee retirement arrangements . 19uJ

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 891 MJ - 1 n~. J. COLLINS: Fundinq is provided forthe operation of the pension fund for all public servants as well as ex gratia payrrents and pensions created bv special acts of the House of Assembly. It also provides for payments forthe Province's pension contributions related to oublic servants, teachers,uniformed services,and members of the House of Assembly to the Newfoundland pool pension fund. Payment of certain other retirement arrangements as well us qovornl1ll'nl' ~' ex gratia payments are provided from these funds as well. ~11 amounts are statutory except for ex gratia payments.

So, Mr. ChainMn, as you pointed out most of the subheads under this head are statutory but, of course,that noes not prevent in any way hon. members of the Committee from commenting on or asking questions about any head whatsoever. I might just make a few preliminary remarks, Mr. Chairman~ The amount in CSF this year is just over $251 million,which is a 7 per cent increase over the revised figure for last year. 'ilow there were some variances between what was actually budgeted for last year and the actual revised amou:1t so, perhaps I could 4 ust cornmro'r.t very briefly on those, j·.1st the major ones.

The first major variance was for treasury bill interest payments and those were up by $1.5 million over the budgeted amount. That was because of righer interest rates paid for those particular borrowings, the averaqe rate there being about 15.4 per cent. We have outstanding at any one time $65 million in treasury bills and ,of course 1, these are rolled over on a very frequent basis. '•Je offer treasury bills every week. The next one, where there was an appreciable variance was on the temporary investment revenue; 1 9 u it

.June 3, 1982 Tape No . 891 MJ - 2 DR . ;t . COLLIN~ : this is where government will qet revenue from the investment of surplus funds . And there HO~ o lC's~c-r amount than budqeted there in the revised estimates of just about $7.5 million . That \>tas due almost totally to the fact that the borrowing programme last year \olaS delayed because of the awk\-,rard market conditions . And, as a matter of fact , we did not do our first borrowing until October of last year . This meant that the re were , For lonq oeriods of time,a lesser amount of surolus funds available for reinvestment than we had anticioated .

SOMP. liON . MEMBERS: ~. COL!.INS : Oh , oh! Mr . Chairman, I do not wish to interruot mv hon . colleagues behind there , but - MR. . CHAIRMAN (AYLWARD) : Order , please! DR . COLLINS : The next major amount was the revenue received from Loans and ctdvances , 'i!here was a variance there, a neqative variance , we received less than was budgeted of $2 .5 million and that due to revenues that we did not receive at the expected time from Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corooration and from the NIDC , Newfoundland Industrial Development Corooration .

There were certain de lays in those, and those funds \>r~re not received in 1981 - '82 , they will be received in 1982 -'83 . 19!.i5

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 892 so -1 DR. COLLINS: So there was an unexpected delay there. The final major variance between the revised 1981-82 and the bu~~eted 1981-82 were contributions to the pension fund. There was an increased amount there of about $1 million and that was just related to the extra amounts that needed to be put in to match the contributions made by a very large group of employees, that is the teachers, and also there was a certain deficit that had to be made up in terms of the uniformed services -policemen, firemen, warders and so on. Mr.

Chairman, uerhaps I could just comment briefly for the benefit of the committee on the major differences between the Budget for 1982-83, that is the new Budget now and the revised figures for '81 and '82. There is a lesser amount this year budgeted for treasury bill interest of $1.5 million.compared to the revised figures for last year1and that is because this year we actually are anticipating that we will be paying lower interest rates with regards to treasury bills than we did last year. Debentures, on the other hand, debenture interest is up by $28 million.

That is a reflection of our new borrowings for last year· They of course, n01v have to be serviced in terms of interest this year and also the fact that some old borrowings are redeemed and, of course, they are rolled over and replaced by new borrowings and the new borrowings are at a higher interest rate. The same applies to a considerable extent in regard to borrowings from-the Canada Pension Fund.

There will be increased interest this year of $8.7 million over what was paid out For t-.l1at particular subhead last Y('ur. and that reflects t~e fact that we borrowed an additional amount of $53 million as part of our borrowing programme from that fund in 1981-82. 19Lif:l

June 3 , 1982 Tape No . 892 SD - 2 DR. COLLINS: In regard to revenue , the temporary investments, vJe are projecting that we will get an additional $15 million this year compared to the amount that \•ms in the revised figures for last year because we do expect that \ole will begin our borrowing programme a·t an earlier date . And also \.;re do have larger opening cash balances that will be available for temporary investments this year than we had last year . So \•Je \-Jill be up by $15 million there . Also on recoveries of loans and advances tha t will be up by $5 mi.llion , vie anticipate .

That is due to the fact that the contract for the Fi s hery Products ' tra\ -J lers 1 the tvro trawlers being buil t or have been built at Marystown, repayments will start on those this year so there \11ill be returns to the Province on that . And as I have already mentioned , we vlill be getting this year, payments from the Housing Corporation and NIDC that \-Je bad expected to get last year but they did not come in at that time, but they \vill be coming in this year. Another variance from last year of about $1 million is on debt management d iscounts and commissions . ., 9 ;j 7

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 893 NM - l DR. COLLINS: That is purely related to two factors really, that is there was a more adverse exchanqe rate_on the US dollar compared to the Canadian dollar, so that will cost us some­ what, and also this year we have been informed we will not be able to borrow from the Alberta Heritage Trust Fund, and that was quite advantageous to us in terms of discounts and commissions.

It was quite a cheap form of borrowing from that point of view and now,of course,with that not beinq available to us,we will have to borrow jn the m.1rketplacc and there will be those additional costs in commissions and discounts. And finally, Mr. Chairman, the contribution to the pension fund will be up by $1.7 million this year compared to last year,and again we match the contributions put in by employees and,of course,their contributions are related to salary levels, as well as to numbers of employees we have.

And there will be a greater amount from contributions of employees and that is what we have to match and ,as I say, will cost us an extra $1.7 million. Mr. Chairma~ I do have notes on many other points here that hon. Committee members may wish to enquire into. T~ose are,shall we say ,major changes both in the revisen figures from the bud~eted figures and between thr budqeteq fiqu~es this year and the revised fiqures of last year that I just wished to bring to hon. members attention. MR. NEARY: Mr . Chai rrnan. MR. CHAI~~ (Aylward) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

NEARY: We just heard the rarnblinqs of a doddlinq, toddling old Minister of Finance. Mr. Chairmun, I would have hoped that the hon. gentleman would have taken advantage of the ten minutes that he just use~ ~ o spell out in detail the financial condition of this Province at the present time. MR. RIDEOUT: It is spelled out. 1 q i; ~

June 3, 1982 Tape No . 893 NM- 2 MR . NEARY: Mr . Speaker, it is not spelled out bccau5c the Minister of f'inance (Dr . Collins) has cleverly cooked the books . ~tr . Speaker, somebody in the Finance Department is cooking the books and I tr7ill show this hon. House before we are finished with the debate - ~IR . BARRETT: Name them . Name them . MR . NEAR'{ : - how they cook the books . Mr . Speaker , fir st of all their budqetinq is unrealistic . The budqeting - when they dra~rr up their estimates - HR . BARRETT : ayway . MR . NEJ\RY : Crosbie 's You do not understand them Mr . Chairm an, I would ask Mr . 190~ ..

June 3, 1992 Tape 894 PK - 1 MR. NEARY : quiet. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : MR. NEARY: he has to say it from his seat. representative to keep Order, please! And if he wants to say something I am talking about a very serious matter. We are talking about the financial debt, the financial con~ition of this Province. Mr. Chairman, the debt is $3.3 billion. In 1972 when the government changed the total direct and indirect debt of this Province was around $700 million- in 1972. Ten years later in 1982 the debt is $3.3 billion and not a single thing to show for it. In other words, Mr.

Chairman, the public debt has more than tripled in ten years under a Tory regime in this P~nvince. And I would suspect, Mr. Chairman, after I get a chance to examine the estimates in a little more detail,that we are not too far from bankruptcy in this Province. The administration have.J~un driven to desperation. When they have to borrow money from their own sinking fund, Mr. Chairman ,that is a si ·~n of desperation on the part of the administration.

And they laid on the table of this House a short time ago three legal opinions to hanq their h<1t 0n ror borrowinq mon('Y r·rnm Lh<· si .nkinq fund that is put aside to amortize the public debt. And I looked at these three legal opinions and hot one of them, Mr. Chairman, not one of these opinions addressed itself to the seriousness of this situation. One of the legal opinion~ which was given by a firm in the United States-I wish I had them with me.

I did not know we were going on these matters today or I would ha ve brought my file UJ= - one of the law firms in the United States gave an opinion and said, 'Well if the' - here was the opinion, '19Hl

June 3, 1982 Tape 894 PK - 2 HR . NEARY : Mr. Chairman, 'I f the Provincial Government of Newfoundland thinks it is right and proper , then that is it, it is right arid proper' . That ,.,as their opinion. I hope they did not charge TOr that. DR . COLLINS : That was not what they said. r-m. NF:. ~ pv • That was. The minister said it was hot. It \vas the opinion of that firm in the United States . That was my

interpretation of it . And I can read , and I can interpret things just as cleverly as the hon. gentleman, What they said was, 'Okay, you are paying us for an opinion, we will give you the opinion you want to hear'. And obviously the opinion they wanted to hear was that as long as Lhl· qovcrnmcnt wanted to do it, then they figured there was nothing wrong with it. That was their legal opinion . . Mr. Chairman , it is the sign of a desperate administration when they set aside money in a sinking fund to amortize the principal and the interest on mo ney already borrowed and then they have 1 9 11

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 895 RA - 1 MR. NEARY: to dig into that sinking fund to borrow that money that they set aside to take care of these emergencies,{.yhen they had to borrow the money from the sinking fund,it is a sign of a desperate government, desperate administration, desperat0-~ DR. COLLINS: You are repeating yours elf. MR. NEARY: Yes I am. I am making sure that some of the l~ttle glassy-eyed, shiny-nosed new mem- hers understand what kind of an administration they are sup- porting.

They are supporting an administration that is on a disaster course as far as the financial management of this Province is concerned. MR. MORGAN: Tell us about that meeting you had last weekend in Gander. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, they have to borrow from their own sinking funds. MR. MORGAN: I hear Stirling is running again. MR. NEARY: Well, let us say it is not illegal, Mr. Chairman, let us say it is not illegal. It is certainly unorthodox and improper. And I would like to hear the Minister of Finance's (Dr. Collins) honest opinion as to whether he thinks it is the riqht thing to do. MR.

WINDSOR: He tabled the answer. MR. NEARY: What answer? illffi. WINDSOR: He tabled the answer to all that. MR. NEARY: No. I am asking the bon. gentle- man to give me his opinion. Of course I know what he will say, he will get up and say ' Well,we did it so I guess it is al- right'. Now let us look at what we are doing here. We arc taking money from consolidated revenue 1 putting it into a sinking fund to take care of money that we already borrowed. As stupid as some bon. gentlemen on the other side look I am sure that that can sink in. They take the money from ·1 9 i?

June 3, 1982 'l'aJ;>c No . 895 RA - 2 MR . NEARY : consolidated revenue , put it in a sinking fund so that they can pay off the interest and the principal on money already borrowed -now that is simple enough is it not? -and then they turn around and borrm.; the money back from the sinking fund . A sign of n dcs1cratc government, Mr. Chairman. And I would hope that it will not continue . It has to stop ! It has to cease' .

If the people who loan us money in the mon .ey markets of the lvorld,whether they be in Euroupe or in the United States, if they hear that we borrow from our own sinking fund , I would sny l·.hcy arc going to look at the matter rather askance . They will be afraid to do business with this government . And, Mr . Chairmen, another example of how this administration is cooking the books : •j 9 i :·1

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 896 NM - ] MR. NEARY: Last year they told us there was a deficit in current account of $60 million, halfway through the financial year. And before the financial year ended they were in the House boasting of a surplus. Mr. Chairman, it is unclear to me, as I am sure it must be to all hon. gentlemen, how they managed to cook the books to bring it from a $60 million deficit to a surplus at the end of the financial year when revenue was down substantially. One of the things they are doing, Mr.

Chairman, in order to cook the books, they are taking items heretofore previously under current account and putting them under capital a9count. 'l'hat is one way th"'Y are cooking the books. Mr. Chairman, there is no w~y that money paid out for salaries should go under capital account. I went through the estimates, I can show you example after example of where this government has taken items that were considered to be current account items and have now put them under capital because they know they Cc\11 borrow the money under capital. Reduce your deficit, that is what they are doing, trying to balance the budget.

Let me give the House an example of what I am talking about. NORDCO, it is called grants and subsidies, NORDCO, it is salaries, Mr. Chuirm~n, salaries to NORDCO camouflaged under capital works. It should be in current account where it always was. Public Works, park development grants and subsidies. Salaries again, Mr. Speaker, included in this amount, $355,000, a lot of it salaries, shifted from current account to capital account to cook the books, to try to make themselves look good. MR. CALLAN: Manipulation. MR. NEARY: Yes, manipulation, you are right on. 1 9 j l1

June 3, 1982 Tape No . 896 NM - 2 r-m . NEARY : Transportation planning and support, planninq and support, how could you put that in the category of capital works, planning and support? It is a current account item . The hon. gentleman must have some clever little devious mind down in his department that is now switching things that should be in current account to capital account, in order to cook the books . Education, listen to this, this is under capital no11, Mr . Chairman, Educa ·tion, this item is under capital 19iS

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 897 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: Native people's education grants and subsidies, a lot of it salaries - $1,692,000 under capital account. And here is one here, on page 129 of the Budget - DR. COLLINS: Do not get tripped up in your figures now. MR. NEARY: No. I will not get tripped up in my figures. And the han. gentleman can try to intirniuate us now all he wants. The han. gentleman is on a sticky wicket . He is on a sticky wicket in the money markets of the world and I hope his prospectuses reflect the true condition of the economy o~ this Province. MR. BARRETT : MR.

NEARY: You would like to see us bankrupt? No, I would not like to see the Province bankrupt. But I remember, Mr. Chairman, being in this House when the present Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshall)., the member for St. John's East said we were bankrupt when we owed $700 million, direct and indirect debt. The present Minister of Energy made that statement in this House. As well as the present Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey), bock in 197l,told the House of Assembly and the people of this Province, when we owed $700 million, that we were bankrupt. Newfoundland was bankrupt. The hon. John C.

Crosbie when he was in this House, how many speeches did he make accusing the administration of bankrupting the Province during these years up to 1971? $700 million, now it is $3.3 billion, and now the member for St. John's West says we are not bankrupt. MR. CALLAN: He wants to have his cake and cat it too. MR. NEARY: That is right. Newfoundland and Labrador Heritage 1 9 j 6

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 897 NM - 2 MIL Nl~i\HY : Vound~tion , listen to this, here is on e here, Debt e xpenses - $870,000, debt expenses. H0''' does the hon . gentleman . what kind of an imagination, \.,rhat kind ox convoluted logic must he use when he says the debt e,xpenses is a capital expendi tur.e and not a current account item t DR. COLLINS: MR. NEARY: OR. COLLINS: ' MR . NEARY: DR. COLLINS: M.R . NEARY: Are you sure you are not looking at the wrong subhead. Pardon? What headinq are you on? It is Consolidated Fund Service . What subhead? It is on page 4, I think, of the estimates .

And here is another one for Public Works, it i .s called ndva nc::c 9lannin~ . Nm.,r what does advance plann i nq involve? It imrolves hiring a group of people to sit do\~n and do a li~tle advance planning . Where would the capital be involved in that? Is it buying a pencil? Would that be the capital? A pe.n or a pencil , or the paper, is that the capital? The hon . gentleman is so smart, . perhaps he can tell me , the member for St. John's \\test (Mr . Barrett), advanced planning, vlhat would it involve? 1 9 l 7

June 3, 1982 Tape 898 TM- 1 MR. NEARY: l''hat would it involve, advance planning? Would it be a capital item, o:r- would it be a current account item? In my opinion, Mr. Chairman, it is a current account item. ~nd T have here in front of me ? list of almost $36 million, listed as capital account items that really belong to current account. DR. COLLINS: Name them. MR. NEARY: I just named them. So, that is another way, Mr. Chairman, it is a very dangerous practise, another way they are cooking the books. And that is almost as serious, by the way, as borrowing from your own si~king fund. And, Mr.

Chairman, the third point I want to raise before I take my seat has to do with a remark made by the hon. gentleman before he took his seat, that this year we will not be able to borrow from Alberta's Heritage Fund. I presume the reason w<~ c.•nnot borroN from Alberta's Heritage Fund is because they arc beginning to feel the pinch in Alberta, and they want to hang on to their hundreds of millions or billions or dollars that they have. They want to keep it there to take care of a rainy day in Alberta they do not want to take any chances on loaning it to the province of Newfoundland.

So that is going to force this administration to borrow in the United States markets. A lot of our borrowing, as hon. members know, I am sure the member for Burin­ Placentia West (Mr. G. Tobin) is aware of this, takes place in the United States markets. Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman referred to the cost to the Province every­ time a change takes place in the exchange on the American dollar. The United States dollar was up marginally yesterday, 1918

·-' June 3, 1982 Tape No. 899 ~S - l MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order please. I have to inform the hon. member that his fifteen minutes has elapsed. MR. NEARY: Yes I know, Sir. And if I might just finish, Mr. Chairman, my trend of thought, then I would say that that little slide in the Canadian dollar yesterday cost this province $2 million on every $100 million that we borrow in the United States markets, and I will have more to say about that, Mr. Chairman, shortly. MR.

CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Before recognizing the hon. minister, I wish to welcome to our galleries forty-one students from Grand Le Pierre in the district of For.tune Hermitage, together with their teacher Mr. Norman Farrell. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): The hon. Minister of Finance. HON. J. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, I get a sense of de ja vu when I start off this. The hon. member makes a speech, particularly on what he claims is the bankruptcy of the Province, and he makes it every year. I have been in the house now since 1975, so this means that I have heard Lhis particular speech seven times.

It has not changed, I do not think, in terms of one word or certainly one thought, it is the same speech every year, that the Province is on the verge of bankruptcy. We seem every year not to be bankrupt. He starts in l975 saying that we are on the verge of bankruptcy, seven years later he is still saying it, we are still not over the verge. I do not know what he means by the verge. I always thought it was on the edge, or very near, and about to topple over, but it just does not seem to happen. I would just like to make an aside on that remark, that I have heard all those remarks before.

I will not say they are boring - they are irrelevant - because they are expective, what one expects the hon. member to come up with, the same sort of thing. I would be very disappointed if he did not. 1 9 j 9

June 3, 1982 Tape No . 899 PS - 2 HON . J. COLLINS : Now he did bring in one or two new items there, not new in terms that they have not been brought up in this House before. For instance, he brought up the one about the sinking fund . That \ias brought up by the Auditor General, it •.;as tabled in this Rouse At the same time we tabled a comment, a departmental comment on it, and the hon . met!ll: ·er either did not read the departmental conu: ent or he chose to igncre it and now presents it as a new item .

Now just to be sure what the sinking fund is: t'lc borrow money for capital works in this Province , and \<le borrow within our means,as is shown by the fact that, bondholders pick up our bonds . Now if someone felt we were on the verge of banl<ruptcy ,obviously they would be crazy if they picked \!"our bonds 1 because we might not be there ten, fifteen, twenty, twenty five years later . when those bonds had to be re9aid . Eo, that is one re!lection that we are not on the verge of bankruptcy . Another point to be l:lade here is that we sell our bonds very readily .

There is no hesitation on the part of bondholders in buying our bonds . The credit rating agencies in 1s2n

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 900 MLeP - 1 DR. ,T. Collins: the United States have not chanqed our credit rating, they have given us indications that our credit ratin" is t"irmer now than it ever was. We would hooe,in the not to distant futur~ that we will get an upgrading • One of the reasons why we have a low rating now is we do have a rather narrow industrial base, economic base in this Province and this government is trying to expand that base by developing our natural resources and we will succeed in doinq so .And when there is evidence that we are expanding our industrial base,we will get an upgrading.

As a matter of facrt I expect that we will get an upgrading before that,because the credit rating agencies, our fiscal agents or the pcoolr who buy our bonds, and people in the business sector of c~n~0<~ and unitP.n ~t<~te~, continually comment on the fiscal integrity, the rinancial management of this aovernment. So, I expect on that basis alone that there will be consideration qiven to the uParadina our credit ratincr So, ~s T snv, w~ borrow money for needy thinq~ . people readily qive us monev for those needy things.

We have to put a certain amount of monev aside in regard to some borrowings, with which we will later partly redeem those bonds, and that is c<~J l.P.n ~ sinkinq fund.Now,when one put money in the sinking fund you iust do not leave it there, you just do not,say, take part of ~ $180 million borrowing, take out of that perhaps $7 or $8 r1 ill inn ~nn iust let it lie around there you invest it, you re- invest that monev. The reason why you do that is because you ~]f'lt a qood return on it. If you did not do that you would be financiallv irresponsible.

Now, when you invest the money you have to make sure it is available when vou are due to redeem your hon0s . rt is no point in havinq a sinkinq fund if You reinvest tne mon2y, your bonds become due but your money is locked into some investment. 1 9 2 'I

June 3, 1982 Tape No . 900 ~1LeP - 2 DR . J. COLLINS : So, we have to make sure that this mon ey is available to us . Now, in some instances , in a relatively small number of instance s we hnve ~ commitment that \ole can see coming up in the near future .

We cannot see another bonr'>, any other investment ,.,.e might make which would become due at that oarticular time, perhaps blo years down the road, oerhaos three, perhaps four or five years down the roan · We can usually see investments that will come due perhaps in the medium to long-term, ~en years,twelve years,fifteen years, but fairly short -term commitments that are coming up, '"here we have to have the mon ey available to us, we could just stick it in a bank account and get a relatively low rate of return on it . . 'Rather than do that ,if \ole cannot on the o~en market find bonds thr.~ will become due at the time and therefore the money will hP readily availabl e to is, we will put it into our own sinkino fund .

We will allo1 • the Province to borrow and wiJ 1 qive provinci;~ I bonds dated for tha~ time so that when that particular time comes up, when the mo~ev is needed the Province will repay the money to the sinking fund related to those special bonds . A very sensible arran~ement . .192?

·J. June 3, 1982 Tape No. 901 IB-1 DR. COLLINS: The response we made to the Auditor General's report was 'That while such transactions have not been and in the future are not intended to be a part of the regular investment programme, of che consolidated sinking fund, not part of the regular investment programme, they are from the sinking fund point of view very useful in carrying out this objective of providing for the orderly redemption of debt issues'. Now the hon. member was answered in a tabled document weeks ago and yet he trots out this old chestnut as though it was something new. Now, Mr.

Chairman,he also made a comment that we seem to have done some underhanded thing or obscure thing when we sought legal advice from our U.S. Counsel. I am not going to read out this whole thing. Again this has been tabled. The hon. member does not read or he chooses to ignore. This is a reply to our debt management division from this Mudge - lawyers have beautiful names there friends - Mudge, Rose, Gutherie and Alexander of 20 Broad Street in New York City. And he starts off, he says, 'You have requested our views'.

Now not to what your own people are telling you or what your own Statute is telling you. 'You have requested our views with respect to the legality under any applicable U.S. federal security laws of the purchase by the consolidated sinking fund of the Province's securities issued by the Province or securities issued by a corporation for the repayment of which is quaranteed by the Province'. Now that is what we asked. We asked, 'Are there any complications under U.S. laws for this?'.

And then it goes on as lawyers do and it finally ends up, 'This is to confirm to you that there is no legal impediment under the security laws of the United States which would restrict purchase by the consolidated sinking fund of 192:=1

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 901 IB-2 DR. COLLINS: securities issued or guaranteed by the Province of Newfoundland'. So, again, the hon. member either does not understand, either does not read or goes off on some tangent, you know, that is completely divorced from the facts of the case and says, 'Here is something the Province is coing that they should not be doing', when in actual fact it has got no relation to the actuality of the case whatever. And that is a prime example. MR. SIMMS: You are not talking about the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) now? MR. DAWE: talking about? DR. COLLINS: MR. SIMMS: and rational. DR.

COLLINS: That is not the fellow you are Well, you see - He is usually fairly fiscally responsibJe Yes, the hon. member far Terra Nova would not lead himself into such a trap as that. MR. SIMMS: That is right. The next Leader of the Opposition. DR. COLLINS: The hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) then said that there are certain amounts of monies that are current and go into capital account. Again the hon. member either does not understand certain processes or he' clo•·~; no~ choo~a· to l nok into 1 h<'lll "~" wll.ll c•v••r. We will fund projects which are capital account projects.

Now during that period of time,until the project is completed,all expenditures, it does not matter what it is on, all 1924

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 902 NM ~ 1 DR. COLLINS: those expenditures are capitalized. They will go into . capital account until such time as the project is completed and at that point in time.any ongoing costs that are not strictly capital, that are not strictly there for the building of structures and so on and so forth, be it interest or whatever, that will then ~o into current account. But until such time as the project itself is completed all expenditures are capitalized. And this is not unusual, this is common accounting practice. There is nothing strange, weird, or wonderful about this.

It has been going on certainly in this Province ever since,ryresumablyrwe have been keeping books. It goes on in all activities, all corporate .H'Livit i<'s, :;o t.lwn~ is nothinq st:ranqc, weird, or wondcrfuJ about it. I think the hon. member just does not know how these things go and this is why he makes these rather misleading, if not rather stupid remarks. Now.then,he mentions something about debt expenses being in current.

Well, you know, I asked him under what heading and he mentioned where it was, ~s far as I can see it is the heading 104-02 and debt expenses are there but they are not under capital, they are under current. They are stotntory. M.R. BARRETT: That is where they should be. DR. COLLINS: Perhaps the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) confuses the meaning of the word statutory with current. 104-02 are debt expenses, they are statutory but they are current account. They are not capital account. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) Order, please! DR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. •j 9 2 ~~~

June 3, 1982 MR. LUS!i. :_ MR . BARRETT: HR. LOSH: MR . CHAiru.!AN (Avl;<~ard) : ~R. LUSH: Tape No. 902 Mr . Chairman. A question? Yes . NM - 2 The han. member for Terra Nova. ~tr. Chair~an, the Minister of Finance (D r. Collins) seems to be aggravated by the fact that the Leader of the Oppos~tion (~tr . Neary) who.in my view.gave a great speech this a=ternoon with respect to the consolidated revenue of this Province and pointed out some clear cases of mismanagement . But, Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) discredits the line used by my han . friend and colleague re the Province on the verge of b.:lnkcupt.cy. Now, Mr. Chairman, who would not make that statement \vhen , if one recalls the operc::rtions of the past governments of this Province, past Oppositions . I recall as a young man, I suppose twenty years ago, twenty years ago hearing members of the Opposition of that day talking about the fact that this Province was on the verge of bankruptcy, talkino about the public debt, the huge public debt. So much so, Mr.

Speaker, as a young man I remember I became quite worried wondering what my status \·muld be if the Province went bankrupt and day in and day cut on the television, in the newspapers. on the radio, that was the cry, that the administration of the day was squandering money and the Province \viiS on the vcrqP of bankruptcy. Well, Mr . Speaker, ·19 2 R

l- June 3, 1982 Tape No. 903 . IB-1 MR. LUSH: the public debt at that time, at the origin of these remarks, the public debt at that time did not equal the amount now that it takes to service the public debt. The public debt back in those times, twenty years ago, did not equal the amount that we are now paying to service our public debt. As a matter of fact, I think in 1971 or 1972,when the administration to which I refer was booted out by the people of this Province,our public debt was somewhere,direct and indirect, was somewhere in the vicinity of $700 million. Today it is $3.3 billion. Now, Mr.

Chairman, there is nobody in this bon. House, the minister included, who can understand, who can comprehend the enormity, the hugeness of that amount of money, $3.3 billion. There is nobody - and I do not mean to make any disparaging remarks about the minister and his knowledge or l"in.:lnccs. ,Jut there is nobody who understands, nobody in this bon. House who understands the enormity and the hugeness of a public debt of $3.3 billion. I remember one time doing a study by a certain mathematician or a scientist who liked playinq around with figures and he capsulizes time of a million years, he capsulizes _ it.

And it is just fanta~tic, he did it with a million. It is just fantastic. I cannot quote the details of it now but it would be something like this, capsulizing a million years, that Columbus discovered America at noon sort of thing and that Christ was born fifteen seconds ago, that kind of thing when we capsulize a million years. So, Mr. Chairman, that demonstrates the enormity and the almost inability of most average people to comprehend was a million is, to say nothing of $3.3 billion. Mr. Chairman, I am not a person to get excited about the public debt.

I am not a person to get excited about $3 billion, about 1927

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 903 IB-2 MR. LUSH: public debt or ministers being overpaid or the Premier being the most expensive Premier in Canada. I am not excited by those things provided, Mr. Chairman, that I can see services for these dollars, provided that 192tl

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 904 RA - 1 MR. LUSH: I can see evidence of the things being put in place for which we have encountered the public debt. Mr. Chairman, the thing that amazes me a- bout the public debt of this Province is that in the last ten years nobody can see any evidence of the monies which the~ qovc' rnmen t h<:~s been spending. Nobody sees any evidence of it. There was a time when we could see roads being built, hospitals being built, schools being built, vocational schools~ all of this sort of thing, all kinds of public buildings. But, Mr.

Chairman, today one can count on one hand these kinds of activities, we can count on one hand the schools that are being built. Vocational schools, not even any improvements to the existing facilities. College of Trades and Technology, t·he fishery college, all of these places crying out for more and expanded facilities, but, the monies just are not coming~ But still, Mr. Chairman,the public debt is increasing and ser­ vices are not increasing accordingly or evidence of public buildinqs and the like.

And that is the disconserting part about this, that we see a public debt escalating and in- creasing year by year,but no corresponding improvement with respect to services, public services to the people of this Province. That is the disconserting part about our public debt. Now, Mr. Chairman, the minister,I think,mentioned some­ where in l]i_s

preamble, in his brief

preamble - MR. KIDEOUT: Hire a student. MR. LUSH: - that we were not able to - they will be back again tomorrow. MR. SIMMS : After this speech by the hon.IT'elllber they will never return again. MR. LUSH: I might say in 14 years no student, not one has ever gotten up to walk out while I have been speaking. 192~

June 3, 1982 Tape No . 904 RA - 2 MR . LUSH : I ju st have that technique, Mr . Chairman, and I let •them understand that ~ny time they got bored , they could go to sleep as long as they did not snore - SOME HON .:-tEz.mERS : Hear, hear! MR . LUSH : and they could tvalk out. They never went to sleep and they never 1"alkcd out: . SOME HON . ME~£ERS : Hear, hear ! MR . LUSH : ~x . Chairman, I continuously get interrupted, it must be that I must be tearing the hide of the government, I must be . They do not \vant to hear the truth . Ml:t . .t<I.!..ll:.OU'f : A dev as tating speech . MR . LUSH: Deva stating speech .

But , ~1r . Chairman, I was intrigued by the utterings from the Minister of Finance(Dr . Collins) to the '19311

June 3, 1982 Tape 905 TM- 1 MR. LUSH: effect that we did not borrow from the Heritage Fund this year. Now,I did not get the reason,or if he said it I did not get it. And that is something I find rather interestino why \ we are not able to borrow from our sister province again this yen~, hoarding money in that Heritaqe Fund, 11R. R~DEOUT: The fed~ral people have all of it. MR. LUSH: and we were able to - I do not expect their broke, and I would like to ~ MR. STAGG: The federal government has got it all. MR. LUSH: Oh the federal government . again.

I do not know what control the federal government qot over thnt lloritaqe Fund. MR . NE ARY: None. MR. LUSH: Because if thev - what? !!R. NEARY: Usually the:• have enough if they (inaudible). MR. LUSH: I do not know what control they got over it, but I find it strange that we were not able to get any money from these magnanimous and generous people. So,Mr. Chairman,mavbe the minister when he speaks again can clarify that situation and find out why we were not able to borrow from that Heritage Fund. MR. _ CHAIRH l\N (AYL\A lARD): Order please. It being 5:00 p.m.

I can inform the House that I have received notice of two motions for debate at 5:30p.m. when a motion for adjournment will be deemed to be before the House. Notice is given by the hon. member for Torngat Mountains. (r-1r. I'Jarren), who was not satisfied with the answer given to him by the Minister of Transportation (Mr. R. Dawe) with respect to the shortage of food in Coastal Labrador. 1 9 ~~ 1

June 3, 1982 Tape 905 T:'>l - 2 li!R . CHAIRMAN (AYLwARD) : And notice is given by the hen. member for Bellevue (Mr . Callan) arising out of the question asked the hon . the President of the council (Mr . Marshall) . The subject matter is pregnant women under the age of eighteen whose parents are not being assisted to qual ify for assistance from the Department of Social Services. Order! The hon. m~~er for Terra Nova (Mr . Lush) . MR. LUSH: Mr . Chairman, I would like for the Min~ster of Finance (Dr.

Collins) to further elucidate on that comment from him, why the Province did not borrow from the Heritage Fund, from a sister province? There should be no reason why we should have to go to the inbernational money markets when we have got ~ sister province that is filt hy rich . And it is only right and proper that we should be able to borrow from that fund within reason . The minister, Nr . Chairman, ~ries to dismiss the fact that the rrovincc borrot•ed fron> the sinking fund . NO'VI, I am sure an awful lot of people throughout 193?

June 3, 1982 Tape No. 906 IB-1 MR. LUSH: the Province do not understand that language and do not understand \.,hat would be irregular about it or what would be improper about it 1 but, Mr. Chairman, the Auditor General of the Province questions that procedure. The Auditor General questions that procedure of borrowing monies from the sinking fund. He is quite concerned about it. MR. CHAIRMAN (AYLWARD): Order, please! I have to inform the hon. member that his time has elapsed. MR. LUSH: Now, Mr. Chairman, I just want - SOME BON. MEMBERS: By leave! By leave! MR. LUSH: That is okay. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No leave!

No leave! MR. LUSH: I do not have leave. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS : Mr. Chairman, the hon. member asked a number of questions and, you know, it was a pleasure to hear him really. He asked some sensible questions. SOME llON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. COLLINS: Nice, sensible questions. MR. TOBIN: Run for the leader over there. MR. RIDEOUT: We will help him out in his lcudcrship campaign. DR. COLLINS: No C<' .nt. MR. HOUSE: Come on boy. Move up. S011E HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! DR. COLLINS: There was no cant, no flustering, no :·;ort of going over old ground and so on.

He showed that he did not have as much L 1J:ormation as he would like. I <lo not know if he ,perhaps,should have a little bit more, because I believe, if I am correct in saying it, he is the financial critic. MR. SIMMS: And there \vas light. "l 9 3:4

June 3, 1982 Tape No . 906 Tl3-2 DR. COLLINS : No, no . I am sorry . The hon . member for Port au Port (Mr . Hodder) is . I am sorry . I take th~t back . But in any case he asked speci£ically and ?articularly about the debt of the Province, the public debt of the Province. And I think it is quite true ~o say that we have a high public debt . l-ie hope that we will reduce that public debt within the lifetime pcrhups or this Assembly, certninly i r not in the lifetim e of this Assembly in the liietimc of an Assembly not too r.~uch in the future .

So ,.;c have u high public debt but I think it would be very, very wrong to give the impress ion that our public debt ls eit her out of control or th at it is increasing at a rate that is insupportable . Now,I can say that from a number of points of view . Firstly, the hon . Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) said that we had a public debt of about $750 million in 1972 . I cannot confirm that figure bu1: I think that is about in the ball park . I accept that figure . He states that at the prcsunt time, ten year