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December 5, 2001

37th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

vol. A

Hansard Transcripts

vol. B

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2001-Dec-05 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Wednesday 5 December 2001 Mercredi 5 décembre 2001

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

RENTAL HOUSING

SCUGOG CHORAL SOCIETY

COMMUNITY CARE ACCESS CENTRES

EVENTS IN SAULT STE MARIE

VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTERS

JAKE LAMOUREUX

DIVERSICARE CANADA

RENTAL HOUSING

RAMADAN

EMERGENCY SERVICES /

SERVICES D'URGENCE

VISITORS

CELEBRATION OF PORTUGUESE

HERITAGE ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LA FÊTE

DU PATRIMOINE PORTUGAIS

VISITOR

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

GOVERNMENT AGENCIES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

JUSTICE AND SOCIAL POLICY

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

REGULATIONS AND PRIVATE BILLS

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

CITY OF OTTAWA ACT

(TAXICABS), 2001

MOTIONS

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

VOLUNTEERS

VISITORS

ERIC BROWN

VISITORS

DEFERRED VOTES

RESPONSIBLE CHOICES FOR GROWTH

AND FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY ACT

(BUDGET MEASURES), 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR DES CHOIX RÉFLÉCHIS

FAVORISANT LA CROISSANCE

ET LA RESPONSABILITÉ FINANCIÈRE

(MESURES BUDGÉTAIRES)

FOOD SAFETY

AND QUALITY ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LA QUALITÉ

ET LA SALUBRITÉ DES ALIMENTS

ORAL QUESTIONS

GOVERNMENT SPENDING

COMMUNITY CARE ACCESS CENTRES

COMPETITIVE ELECTRICITY MARKET

ACADEMIC TESTING

HEALTH CARE FUNDING

SERVICES FOR ABUSED WOMEN

GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY

COMMUNITY CARE ACCESS CENTRES

ONTARIANS WITH

DISABILITIES LEGISLATION

LONDON HEALTH SCIENCES CENTRE

SCHOOL BUSES

ASSISTANCE TO FARMERS

POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION

COLLÈGE DES GRANDS LACS

PETITIONS

PODIATRIC SERVICES

DOCTOR SHORTAGE

LONDON HEALTH SCIENCES CENTRE

LONG-TERM CARE

HOME CARE

EDUCATION FUNDING

CHILD CARE

CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

AUDIOLOGY SERVICES

ADOPTION DISCLOSURE

CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

EDUCATION FUNDING

ACCESS TO LEGISLATIVE BUILDING

ORDERS OF THE DAY

CONCURRENCE IN SUPPLY

ADJOURNMENT DEBATE

COLLÈGE DES GRANDS LACS

Wednesday 5 December 2001 Mercredi 5 décembre 2001

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

RENTAL HOUSING

Mr David Caplan (Don Valley East): Today Toronto tenants celebrate a small victory. For the first time since the proclamation of the so-called

Tenant Protection Act, I am pleased to report that today the city of Toronto has won the right to control the demolition and replacement of its very precious rental stock with the passage of the

private bill, Bill Pr22.

In this era of historically low vacancy rates, it is critical that we make this possible. I'm not the only one who agrees. I've received a letter from Alan

Redway, the former mayor of East York and Conservative housing minister.

On this issue he says, "As the member of Parliament for the federal riding of York East, and as federal Minister of State for Housing, I received innumerable

representations from never-married senior women concerning the possible conversion of their apartment residences on Don Mills Road at Lawrence Avenue. Worse yet, they were also threatened with the

complete demolition of those apartments. Those women were frightened and panicky with no alternative accommodation, given their extremely low pension income. I am sure that your heart, like mine,

would have gone out to them, and that you, like me, would have done everything in your power to allow them to retain their rental apartment homes."

Alan Redway, a high-profile Conservative, is right. Provincial leaders can't just stand back and do nothing. The city of Toronto is unanimous in its conviction

to act, and I am proud that the Liberal caucus, led by the bill's sponsor, Michael Bryant, cared enough to bring this bill forward. It's now up to the government to see it through. Ensure that this

bill receives third reading before the House rises this year. It is simply the right thing to do.

SCUGOG CHORAL SOCIETY

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): I rise in the House today to recognize the Scugog Choral Society on the occasion of its 25th anniversary. This group

came about because citizens in Port Perry wanted to preserve an important part of their heritage.

Back in 1976 there was consideration being given to tearing down the century-old town hall. The Scugog Choral Society held a benefit to rescue this building. The

rest, as they say, is history. Twenty-five years later, the Town Hall 1873 is still standing. In fact it's a focal point of the community. And the Scugog Choral Society is still singing. Grace

Hastings, a popular teacher, both in the schools and in private music instruction, was one of the people who rallied behind the town hall project. She was the founder of the group. Today the Scugog

Choral Society numbers 42 voices, with a membership of 56. A new project this year has been the very successful children's choir.

I would like to pay tribute to all those who have shared their musical gifts with the community in Port Perry. I'd like to mention Alice Lee, past president;

Rick Huntington, president; vice-president Janet Rowland; and second vice Judy Anderson.

The choral society's latest production, which concluded on Saturday night, was a celebration of all the shows since 1976. Musical direction was supplied by

Alissa Smith, with Nina Foxall the artistic director. We're looking forward to further performances in the coming year.

I commend the Scugog Choral Society for its efforts in preserving the Town Hall 1873 and keeping alive the important tradition of community choirs. We wish them

many harmonious years in the future.

COMMUNITY CARE ACCESS CENTRES

Mr Joseph Cordiano (York South-Weston): I want to be very clear today that this government's efforts to bring about Bill 130 to change the

structure with regard to community care access centres is nothing short of this government's effort and attempt to silence its critics.

Today my colleague the member for Windsor West held a press conference. The president of the Ontario Association of Community Care Access Centres called upon

this government to withdraw its Bill 130. It is, as I said, an effort to silence its critics. It's a slap in the face to CCACs across this province. It's a slap in the face to all those volunteers

who sit on those boards. They come from the community they represent. They have done a very noteworthy job against all odds, underfunded by this government to the tune of $175 million. In North

York alone they have been underfunded by $10 million.

It's no wonder that people are saying we have a crisis on our hands when it comes to community care access centres. They are saying out there to the government,

"Listen to us. There is a serious crisis. What you've done with community care access centres is a disgrace." In Ontario today, we have 70-year-olds who are required to care for their 90-year-old

elderly parents. It is nothing short of a disgrace, and this government must take it seriously. This is a crisis. Take it seriously.

EVENTS IN SAULT STE MARIE

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): This is my chance for my annual commercial on behalf of Sault Ste Marie. I want people to know that it's

snowing in the Soo and that the Searchmount Ski Resort is looking forward to a very exciting season of fun and frolic for all. We are inviting everybody to come on up and take advantage of the

wonderful facilities that Sault Ste Marie has, the wonderful opportunity to ski, snow machine, ice fish, or whatever your heart desires.

I'm here today to also say that tonight the media studio is holding their annual Christmas party and charity auction. In the spirit of that and my community, a

number of businesses have come together to offer a package that will be auctioned off tonight of two nights of accommodation, free flights to Sault Ste Marie and free skiing.

I want to read a little poem that my assistant, Susan Walters, wrote for this occasion.

You could visit Rome

or see gay Paree,

But nothing is better

than Sault Ste Marie.

Especially in winter

where skiing is great

And with these two passes

you won't have to wait.

There's two for the airplane

with a two-night stay

And with added lift passes

you'll have a GREAT day.

So come on up to Sault Ste Marie and enjoy the skiing. Go to the auction tonight, bid on this package and have yourself a good time.

VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTERS

Mr Ted Arnott (Waterloo-Wellington): Today I want to recognize the courage of a firefighter from Waterloo-Wellington whose quick thinking and

actions saved a man's life. Lieutenant Joseph Kelly of the Woolwich-Elmira Fire Department was returning from a business trip on Highway 86, east of Elmira, when he came upon a collision between a

car and a truck that resulted in a fireball. Without hesitation, he and another citizen on the scene risked their lives and pulled the driver of the car to safety.

Using a packsack as a shield, Joseph Kelly then attempted to approach the truck, but the heat from the fire was overwhelming and the packsack started to burn in

his hands. Soon after they pulled the man to safety, the car exploded into a firestorm.

These actions earned Joseph Kelly the Ontario Medal for Firefighter Bravery, which was presented to him at Queen's Park on November 13 by the Lieutenant Governor

of Ontario, the Honourable Hilary Weston. Lieutenant Kelly was acknowledged for exceptional courage, and his actions remind us of the courage and sacrifice that firefighters bring to the job in

Ontario. In Waterloo-Wellington, his actions also remind us of the importance of volunteer service, because Lieutenant Kelly is a volunteer firefighter.

I know this Legislature recognizes the great contributions that all of our volunteer firefighters make in our communities. I was honoured to work with my

colleagues here to support their efforts when we passed my private member's bill in 1994 that enabled volunteer firefighters to identify their personal vehicles by using a flashing green light. In

1998, my private member's bill to allow for the maximum compensation for volunteer firefighters if they are injured in the line of duty was adopted into government legislation and passed into law

as well.

Lieutenant Kelly went beyond his duty, and this brave act reminds us why firefighters, especially volunteer firefighters, are an inspiration to us all.

JAKE LAMOUREUX

Mr John C. Cleary (Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh): Yesterday I had the pleasure of joining my constituent Mr Jake Lamoureux as he was awarded

the prestigious Order of Ontario for his many contributions to our community.

Mr Lamoureux's dedication is an inspiration to all those who know him. His commitment to helping others is even more amazing as he was diagnosed with bone cancer

at the age of 19. Despite his disabilities, Jake has dedicated his life to helping others. Over the years he has been involved in over a dozen organizations, including the children's treatment

centre, the United Way, the Agape Centre and the children's aid society. He has been an exceptional fundraiser and has raised in excess of $2 million over the years.

Jake's exceptional volunteerism has not gone unnoticed. He has received numerous community awards, including Citizen of the Year in 1988 by the chamber of

commerce. That same year he was awarded the Ontario Medal for Good Citizenship and, just last year, the Order of Canada.

Now I am proud to say that he can add the Order of Ontario to his outstanding accomplishments. I know the community would not have been the same without Jake's

kindness and generosity. He has made a difference in the lives of many in our area. I know the community as a whole joins me in congratulating Jake for his many contributions to my community over

the years.

DIVERSICARE CANADA

Ms Marilyn Mushinski (Scarborough Centre): With great pleasure I take this opportunity to recognize the Rockcliffe Centre long-term-care

facility, which is in my riding of Scarborough Centre. Rockcliffe is managed by Diversicare Canada Management Services Co. This company operates 14 long-term-care facilities and 23 retirement

residences across Canada.

On October 17 the National Quality Institute presented Diversicare Canada with a Quality Award, for excellence. Diversicare won this award by meeting a very

stringent set of criteria. NQI measures all aspects of a corporation's performance, from leadership and customer service focus to continuous improvement.

Diversicare has an annual conference that promotes the exchange of best practices within their organization around the theme of "I Can Do It Better."

This is the first time a company in the long-term care and retirement industry has received this prestigious award in the NQI's 17-year history.

It is important to take the time to say congratulations. The excellent service that Rockcliffe provides to my community has made an example of how government and

the private sector can work together to provide new solutions for our health care system.

Congratulations to all.

RENTAL HOUSING

Mr Michael Bryant (St Paul's): I am pleased to report to this House that a non-partisan moment took place. Justice prevailed over partisan

politics today in the private bills committee. Thanks to that effort, in the midst of a housing drought we're going to preserve that precious commodity of affordable housing stock.

Congratulations to MPP David Caplan for his bright idea for me to bring this private bill forward to city council in the first place. Congratulations to city

council and their excellent staff who presented before the committee in a way that left the committee with no other choice but to support this private bill.

Congratulations to the councillors who unanimously supported this resolution, without which I don't think this would have happened. Thank you to councillors

Mihevc and Walker in St Paul's for their great support and initiative in this regard. Above all, to the citizens of St Paul's and across Toronto, congratulations for participating in a remarkable

democratic moment, packing the committee room and letting your voice be known. Again, after your voice was heard, there was no other result but victory for tenants in Toronto.

I say to those Tory leadership candidates: reaffirm your commitment to the city of Toronto. Reaffirm your political clout. Make sure no political games are

played to stop this bill from eventually passing. Congratulations to everybody in this House. This is a great day for democracy.

RAMADAN

Mrs Tina R. Molinari (Thornhill): The Muslim community in my riding of Thornhill and throughout the world has been observing a month of fasting

and prayer during Ramadan, which began on November 16 of this year. Muslims regard Ramadan as a time for inner reflection, devotion to Allah and self-control. Ramadan is also a time of intensive

worship, reading of the Koran, giving to charity, doing good deeds and the purifying of one's behaviour.

Ramadan will end with the celebration of the feast of Eid-ul-Fitr, which will fall in mid-December. On the day of Eid, Muslims are encouraged to enjoy a sweet

snack and to express thanks to Allah by means of distributing alms among the poor and by offering special prayers. On this day, gifts are also given to children and loved ones.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the children at As-Sadiq Islamic School in my riding of Thornhill for taking

part in the competition for

designing the Eid-ul-Fitr cards. They were very creative and well done. I will be sending the cards to members of the Muslim community in Thornhill.

I would like to wish members of the Muslim community in my riding of Thornhill and across the province of Ontario a very happy and joyous Eid.

EMERGENCY SERVICES /

SERVICES D'URGENCE

M me Claudette Boyer (Ottawa-Vanier) : En tant que députée dans la nouvelle ville d'Ottawa, je viens déplorer le fait

que les services d'urgence à Ottawa soient compromis.

Ottawa's emergency services are being seriously compromised by the decision of the government of Ontario to operate the Ottawa-area ambulance service dispatch

network independently of the rest of the emergency response operations. Efficiency and common sense dictate that the full coordination of the emergency services must mean full integration of those

services. The mayor and city councillors of Ottawa are adamantly opposed to the current provincial proposal to separate dispatch services from the other components of emergency services.

The voices of the citizens of Ottawa are now also being heard. There is widespread opposition to the proposed changes, and confidence in the viability of

emergency services throughout the nation's capital is rapidly diminishing. Moreover, every expert in the field of community safety advocates the integration of emergency services.

Why is this government refusing to listen to the experts? Why is this government ignoring the wishes of the citizens of Ottawa and their elected leaders? Why is

this government placing the lives of residents of Ottawa at risk? Remember, the safety of the people of Ottawa must come first.

VISITORS

Mr Bill Murdoch (Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Today I introduce Joanna Van Dorp, sitting right beside you there, one

of our pages. Her school is here today to make sure she's working hard: Timothy Christian School in Owen Sound.

By the way, they'd like to thank the House for the tax credits they will be getting; they are a Christian school.

Mr Carl DeFaria (Mississauga East): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I seek unanimous consent of the House to move third reading of Bill 120, An

Act to proclaim a day and a month to celebrate Portuguese heritage in Ontario, and to have the question put immediately, without further debate or amendment.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Mr DeFaria is seeking unanimous consent of the House to move third reading of Bill 120. Is there unanimous consent?

Agreed.

CELEBRATION OF PORTUGUESE

HERITAGE ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LA FÊTE

DU PATRIMOINE PORTUGAIS

Mr DeFaria moved third reading of the following bill:

Bill 120,

An Act to proclaim a day and a month to celebrate Portuguese heritage in Ontario / Projet de loi 120, Loi proclamant un jour et un mois de

fête du patrimoine portugais en Ontario.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

Be it resolved that the bill do now pass and be entitled as in the motion.

VISITOR

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Just before we begin, we have with us today in the Speaker's gallery Danielle Campo, one of last evening's

recipients of the Order of Ontario. Sixteen-year-old Danielle represented Canada at the 2000 Paralympic Games in Sydney, Australia, where she captured three gold medals and one silver, setting a

world record in the women's 100-metre freestyle. Danielle has raised over $1 million for muscular dystrophy. Again, we welcome our honoured guest.

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

GOVERNMENT AGENCIES

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): I beg to inform the House that today the Clerk received the 17th report of the standing committee on government

agencies.

Pursuant to standing order 106(e), the report is deemed to be adopted by the House.

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

JUSTICE AND SOCIAL POLICY

Mr Toby Barrett (Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant): I beg leave -- and given the circumstances yesterday, I am begging -- to present a report from the

standing committee on justice and social policy and move its adoption.

Clerk at the Table (Mr Todd Decker): Your committee begs to report the following bill as amended:

Bill 105,

An Act to amend the Health Protection and Promotion Act to require the taking of blood samples to protect victims of crime, emergency service

workers, good Samaritans and other persons / Projet de loi 105, Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la protection et la promotion de la santé pour exiger le prélèvement d'échantillons

de sang afin de protéger les victimes d'actes criminels, les travailleurs des services d'urgence, les bons samaritains et d'autres personnes.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Shall the report be received and adopted? Agreed.

Pursuant to an order of the House dated November 28, 2001, the bill is ordered for third reading.

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

REGULATIONS AND PRIVATE BILLS

Mr Rosario Marchese (Trinity-Spadina): I beg leave to present a report from the standing committee on regulations and private bills and move

its adoption.

Clerk at the Table (Mr Todd Decker): Your committee begs to report the following bills without amendment:

Bill Pr3,

An Act to revive 1268519 Ontario Inc.

Bill Pr22,

An Act respecting the demolition of rental housing units in the City of Toronto.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Shall the report be received and adopted? Agreed.

Mr Marchese: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I'm asking for unanimous consent from this House. Given that we just passed second reading and

it was almost unanimously supported in committee, I ask that we proceed on third reading of Bill Pr3,

An Act respecting the demolition of rental housing units in the City of Toronto.

Mr Dwight Duncan (Windsor-St Clair): On the same point of order, Mr Speaker: Mr Bryant's bill, Bill Pr22, was introduced by Mr Bryant, and Mr

Bryant took it through the committee process. I believe, though, that the bill is Pr22 in the name of Mr Bryant, the member for St Paul's, a member of the official opposition Liberal caucus.

The Speaker: One little problem. It hasn't had second reading yet. You would need to ask for unanimous consent for second reading, if the

member would like to do that. You asked for third. If you could make it for second reading.

Mr Marchese: I seek unanimous consent for this House to proceed to second reading of Bill Pr22 and hope we would have the support of this

House to do that.

The Speaker: Just so everyone's clear, that bill is

An Act respecting the demolition of rental housing units in the City of Toronto.

Is there unanimous consent? I'm afraid I heard some noes.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

CITY OF OTTAWA ACT

(TAXICABS), 2001

Mr Guzzo moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill Pr24,

An Act respecting the City of Ottawa.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

Pursuant to standing order 84, the bill stands referred to the standing committee on regulations and private bills.

MOTIONS

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

Hon Janet Ecker (Minister of Education, Government House Leader): I seek unanimous consent to put forward a motion regarding private members'

public business.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is there unanimous consent? Agreed.

Hon Mrs Ecker: I move that not withstanding standing order 96(d), the following change be made to the ballot list for private members' public

business: Mr McMeekin and Mr Colle exchange places in order of precedence such that Mr McMeekin assumes ballot item 37 and Mr Colle assumes ballot item 38.

The Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

VOLUNTEERS

Hon Cameron Jackson (Minister of Citizenship, minister responsible for seniors): I am seeking unanimous consent of the House for each caucus

to have some brief comments about the fact that today is International Volunteer Day.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is there unanimous consent? Agreed.

Hon Mr Jackson: In 1985, the United Nations General Assembly designated December 5 as International Volunteer Day, a day dedicated to

recognizing and celebrating volunteers. It is especially significant today, not only because it is also the International Year of Volunteers but because of recent tragedies in the United States.

They remind us of just how valuable volunteers are and what a difference they make to our communities, our province and our country.

In the aftermath of the terrorist attacks, volunteers opened their homes to stranded passengers and organized fundraising activities for victims' families. A

number of volunteers even went to New York to see for themselves the atrocities of September 11 and offer their volunteer services in whatever way they could.

Today we have in the House one of those volunteers who went to ground zero to offer his special skills as well as to offer comfort, solace and encouragement.

He happens also to be from the riding of Burlington. I believe that he, like other volunteers throughout Ontario who went to ground zero, represents the spirit of volunteerism in this province and

exemplifies the compassion and the commitment that make our communities strong.

Terry Clark, the director of family services for the Salvation Army in Burlington, was in Manhattan from October 5 to October 18, where he worked 12- to

18-hour shifts with colleagues dispensing food and refreshments to the emergency service personnel. He told us that the site, the ground, was so hot that people working at ground zero would come

out with their boots literally melting off their feet. Terry and his crew would remove their boots, wash and powder their feet and give them new socks and boots. In referring to his time there in

his own modest way, Terry said that it was a privilege for him to help and to be of service.

There were also four people from the Burlington Red Cross who went to New York to lend a hand to our neighbours: Ella Davidson, Sergio Bollito, Judy Barlett

and Bill Ferris. They couldn't be here with us today because they are in different parts of the world, volunteering. In fact, Bill Ferris is still volunteering his time in New York.

Please join me in honouring and applauding Terry Clark and his many colleagues for their generosity and volunteer spirit.

Applause.

Hon Mr Jackson: Such committed volunteerism has a long-standing tradition in our province, with more than 2.3 million unsung heroes of all

ages helping to keep our communities vibrant and healthy, making this province a much richer place to live.

There is an abundance of stories of dedicated volunteerism across our province, and as I have travelled this province I never cease to be amazed at the efforts

these volunteers give. Just this year alone, 8,124 individuals from across our province received Ontario volunteer service awards to commemorate the International Year of Volunteers, and we added a

new 50-plus-years-of-service pin for seniors who are recognized on our on-line Volunteer Hall of Fame.

I cannot detail the work of all the outstanding volunteers in our province, but I would like to highlight just a few. Erin Beckett, from Amherstburg, was just

12 years old when she organized a successful elementary school Valentine's dance and raised $757 to refurbish the Nazrey African Methodist Episcopal Church, the first black heritage building to be

protected as a national historical site in Canada.

Heather Menzies, l8, of Petrolia, a top academic student and an athlete with four part-time jobs, remains a tireless volunteer as a companion to seniors at

nursing homes, an assistant with mentally handicapped children and a coach for a boys' soccer team.

Twenty very special Ontario citizens received outstanding achievement awards in volunteerism in our province this year, each of them selfless acts of devotion

to the service of others. Wendy Cook, of Orangeville, is typical. Wendy was determined that children with disabilities should have a chance to play in a local park. Her daughter, Hailey, six, could

use the swings, but Keaton, aged three, who had special needs, had to sit on the sidelines -- a heartbreaking sight for any mother. Wendy determined that Orangeville should have a fully accessible

playground, and after months of lobbying for support and funds, Every Kid's Park became a reality in September and all the children in that community can finally go out and play.

Against such a backdrop of dedication from so many volunteers, you can understand why our government has responded by committing more than $22 million to

support and strengthen volunteerism in our province since 1995, with an unprecedented $15-million investment in the International Year of Volunteers. Among the initiatives, we supported the 47

community volunteer summits across the province -- and I want to thank all members of the House for participating -- bringing together local businesses, non-profit organizations and government to

discuss ideas on working together to enhance the community and individual lives.

A new partnership, Ontario's Promise, was launched by Premier Mike Harris, a program that encourages more local businesses, government and volunteer

organizations to work on behalf of children and youth.

This government is also working with high-tech companies to expand the reach and impact of technology to benefit the voluntary sector. In fact, this afternoon

I will be unveiling Making IT Work for Volunteers, a $600,000 partnership program with the Information Technology Association of Canada for Ontario.

We salute Ontario's dedicated army of volunteers. They deserve our utmost respect and our sincere gratitude.

Mr Tony Ruprecht (Davenport): On behalf of Dalton McGuinty and the Liberal caucus, I'm delighted to respond to the minister's statement on the

International Year of Volunteers, 2001.

We're of course honoured by the presence of Terry Clark, who has come today, and the thousands of others, all those volunteers in Ontario. You've made us proud

to be Canadians. We know there can be no higher calling than to help others, and there are a number of organizations in Ontario that should receive special mention because of their yeoman service

in terms of providing volunteer services. The cancer society, the Heart and Stroke Foundation, with 45,000 volunteers, and the March of Dimes all rely extensively on volunteers because they ensure

that funds are raised and education on these issues that are their concern flows to the larger society.

The hospital sector alone relies heavily on volunteers to ensure that all parties and all patients are cared for -- 60,000 men, women and teenagers volunteer

their time and compassion in Ontario hospitals. This provides an estimated four million hours of service to the patients. If they were paid $15 an hour, this would add up to $60 million worth of

free time. Volunteers in hospitals also raise more than $20 million a year for hospital equipment, community services, education and outreach. This is accomplished through sales in the gift shops,

bazaars, antique fairs, lottery ticket sales etc.

In this blessed country, we have a number of volunteer services and a great tradition of selfless service through alliance clubs, Rotarians, Shriners, our

churches, lodges, temples, synagogues. I myself was raised in the tradition of Kiwanis International, whose motto is "To serve with purpose." In the very act of giving, something happens to the

giver. In giving, we ourselves are transformed as well.

While we should encourage any kind of volunteerism, there should exist a special category of volunteers: those who help the poor, the unemployed, the sick and

indeed total strangers. I am reminded of the good Samaritan parable in the Bible. There was a person who picked up a total stranger, cared for him, took him into an inn, paid for him and left

without expecting anything in return.

You say, "People don't care any more. People don't do that any more because it's too dangerous." Well, we're wrong. I used to have a corner office just

underneath the Premier's office in the Whitney Block. Occasionally I would stay late. When I did I saw a number of volunteers who looked after the homeless in their miserable condition, providing

them with coffee, blankets and food. The good Samaritan still lives.

While we celebrate today the achievements of the International Year of Volunteers and all those volunteers in Ontario, I am reminded of the record of this

government. Did you know that presently we're debating a bill that will fire volunteers from our community care access centres? That's an imposition we should not and cannot adhere to. I'm reminded

of a further record. In 1984 there was the International Year of Disabled Persons. As Liberals, we recognized that in 1986. Why did it take that long? Because in 1984 the PC government did not wish

to acknowledge the establishment of the International Year of Disabled Persons.

Today we also have the Advisory Council on Disability Issues eliminated. Why? We don't know. But one thing is for certain: the government has seen the light

and the government has decided, with great fanfare, to get back and say, "We will re-establish the disability office and re-establish disability service."

I am also reminded of the recognition award for volunteers the minister spoke to, the five-year, 10-year, 15-year, 25-year and indeed the 50-year anniversary

pins. What happened when it was established? Liberals and the city of Toronto had to write many letters in order to get this thing organized, in order to get the volunteer services established. We

dragged this government, kicking and screaming, into the 20th century to recognize our volunteers. So there is another record that we can go to.

Let's remember why volunteerism is needed in Ontario today. It is important because the homeless situation in our province has been exacerbated by this

government's contribution to the housing crisis. Volunteers are needed to help feed and shelter the homeless through church organizations such as St Francis Table; further, because our schools are

short on teachers, because parent volunteers are helping now in the classroom to ensure the larger class sizes are manageable.

More volunteers are needed because an increasing number of seniors and working poor are visiting food banks for help. Volunteers are needed to donate and hand

out appropriate food to the working poor. It is clear that this government has introduced some programs which will increase volunteers. We need you. We're proud of you.

One thing is clear. As volunteers are needed in the future, we know that this government must do its part. You too must encourage volunteerism, do more than

simply give out pins. You must open your doors and then try to ensure that volunteers are being looked after and encouraged so that the future of Ontario can be proud of its tradition.

Mr Rosario Marchese (Trinity-Spadina): New Democrats stand proud today to honour on this day, the International Volunteer Day, all those men

and women, young and old, who put in a great deal of time in the service of creating a decent society. We know that volunteerism is the hallmark of democracy. Without them, this democracy would not

be much better. It would not be so great without them.

More and more people are volunteering their time because they need to. They're being taxed because they're working double time and triple time at the job of

volunteerism. Why? Because governments are abdicating responsibilities for Ontarians, for this society. You volunteers, you Ontarians are the real heroes. You contribute billions and billions of

dollars of your time. This government knows that your time is valuable. It's worth money. They call upon you day in and day out to volunteer more and more of your free time so that governments

spend less and less of their tax dollars and responsibilities to do the right thing. That's what I decry. We're not ashamed to recognize the work of volunteers. We recognize them day in and day

out. But they ought not to replace the obligations of government.

More and more volunteers are replacing governments when they shirk their responsibilities. So I have no time for this government or this minister when they

stand here today praising volunteers. I have no time for it because I see more and more of them taxed to death, providing the work that they should be doing. They are tired of filling in the gaps

for this government. Volunteers are tired of picking up your mess. I'm tired of it. If I'm tired, they too must be equally tired of it. They are saying, "What is the obligation of government,

except and if not to do the things that volunteers are doing in so many cases?"

In our school boards, parents are collecting $36 million for basic supplies, something the Minister of Education should provide. Our illustrious Minister of

Finance should be forking out the money for those parents, for those students, yet parents are raising more and more of their money, out of their own pocket, for basic things in the schools. That's

wrong. That is absolutely wrong.

How many out-of-the-cold programs do we have in this society, volunteers helping those who are homeless? We, you especially, can praise these folks for

volunteering their time and their lives to help those people who are homeless. But what is your obligation to them? That responsibility falls more and more on volunteers. People are in shelters in

record numbers. Some shelters simply cannot house those who come in seeking help. They are being kicked out because they have no room. What is the government's response to this? "More and more

volunteers should open their doors to those who seek shelter," as opposed to this illustrious Minister of Finance finding the money to be able to provide for those seeking shelter. He's got $2.3

billion worth of money to give to the corporate sector because they're so needy and so desperate and he has no money for those seeking shelter, no money for the homeless, no money for those parents

who are raising money for basic supplies.

Minister of Finance, you ought to stand up and ask forgiveness from those Ontarians, as opposed to the hubris that you express here day in and day out about

your tax policies and how great they are.

Interjections.

Mr Marchese: The Minister of Finance says I don't understand. I'm glad he understands the plight of those who seek from you the support they

desperately need. I say to the Minister of Finance, I am tired and volunteers are getting awfully tired of filling in the gaps for you and your government. While I recognize volunteers because they

are truly the real heroes, I tell you they don't want to replace you. They want governments to have that obligation, and not have the volunteers bear the burden of filling in the holes for you.

VISITORS

Hon Janet Ecker (Minister of Education, Government House Leader): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I'd like to introduce and welcome several

members of the Ontario Principals' Council who are with us in the gallery today: the president, Martha Foster; the executive director, Mike Benson; president-elect Helen Spence; vice-president Doug

Acton; and executive members-at-large Wendy Fairly and Ian McFarlane. I'd like to welcome them to this Legislature.

ERIC BROWN

Mrs Sandra Pupatello (Windsor West): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I would like the indulgence of the House for a moment to inform the

House that we have a page here from Windsor West, named Eric Brown, who was called home two days ago, and last night, unfortunately, his mother passed away. On behalf of the whole House, we extend

our deepest sympathies to the Brown family while they get through these very difficult and trying days. The funeral will be held on Friday, and we extend and wish our very best to Eric

especially.

VISITORS

Mrs Tina R. Molinari (Thornhill): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: As today is International Volunteer Day, I think it's appropriate to

recognize, in the government members' gallery, Michael LaFlamme, who is a volunteer on the board of directors of the East Metro Youth Services, and Clair Fainer, on the board.

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: On this very important day when we do recognize volunteers, I'd like to

recognize the volunteer who is the chair of the community care access centre in our city, Bob Fera, and he'd like to continue volunteering.

DEFERRED VOTES

RESPONSIBLE CHOICES FOR GROWTH

AND FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY ACT

(BUDGET MEASURES), 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR DES CHOIX RÉFLÉCHIS

FAVORISANT LA CROISSANCE

ET LA RESPONSABILITÉ FINANCIÈRE

(MESURES BUDGÉTAIRES)

Deferred vote on the motion for third reading of Bill 127,

An Act to implement measures contained in the Budget and to implement other initiatives of the

Government / Projet de loi 127, Loi mettant en oeuvre certaines mesures énoncées dans le budget de 2001 ainsi que d'autres initiatives du gouvernement.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Call in the members; this will be a five-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 1417 to 1422.

The Speaker: All those in favour of the motion will please rise one at a time and be recognized by the Clerk.

Ayes

Arnott, Ted

Baird, John R.

Barrett, Toby

Beaubien, Marcel

Chudleigh, Ted

Clark, Brad

Clement, Tony

Coburn, Brian

Cunningham, Dianne

DeFaria, Carl

Dunlop, Garfield

Ecker, Janet

Elliott, Brenda

Flaherty, Jim

Galt, Doug

Gilchrist, Steve

Gill, Raminder

Guzzo, Garry J.

Hardeman, Ernie

Harris, Michael D.

Hodgson, Chris

Hudak, Tim

Jackson, Cameron

Johns, Helen

Kells, Morley

Klees, Frank

Marland, Margaret

Martiniuk, Gerry

Maves, Bart

Mazzilli, Frank

Miller, Norm

Molinari, Tina R.

Munro, Julia

Murdoch, Bill

Mushinski, Marilyn

Newman, Dan

O'Toole, John

Ouellette, Jerry J.

Runciman, Robert W.

Sampson, Rob

Snobelen, John

Spina, Joseph

Sterling, Norman W.

Stewart, R. Gary

Stockwell, Chris

Tascona, Joseph N.

Tilson, David

Tsubouchi, David H.

Turnbull, David

Wettlaufer, Wayne

Wilson, Jim

Witmer, Elizabeth

Wood, Bob

Young, David

The Speaker: All those opposed will please rise one at a time and be recognized by the Clerk.

Nays

Agostino, Dominic

Bartolucci, Rick

Bisson, Gilles

Bountrogianni, Marie

Boyer, Claudette

Bradley, James J.

Brown, Michael A.

Bryant, Michael

Caplan, David

Churley, Marilyn

Cleary, John C.

Colle, Mike

Cordiano, Joseph

Crozier, Bruce

Curling, Alvin

Di Cocco, Caroline

Dombrowsky, Leona

Duncan, Dwight

Gerretsen, John

Gravelle, Michael

Hoy, Pat

Kormos, Peter

Kwinter, Monte

Marchese, Rosario

Martel, Shelley

Martin, Tony

McGuinty, Dalton

McLeod, Lyn

McMeekin, Ted

Parsons, Ernie

Patten, Richard

Peters, Steve

Phillips, Gerry

Prue, Michael

Pupatello, Sandra

Ramsay, David

Ruprecht, Tony

Smitherman, George

Clerk of the House (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 54; the nays are 38.

The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.

Be it resolved that the bill do now pass and be entitled as in the motion.

FOOD SAFETY

AND QUALITY ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LA QUALITÉ

ET LA SALUBRITÉ DES ALIMENTS

Deferred vote on the motion for third reading of Bill 87,

An Act to regulate food quality and safety and to make complementary amendments and repeals to other

Acts / Projet de loi 87, Loi visant à réglementer la qualité et la salubrité des aliments, à apporter des modifications complémentaires à d'autres lois et à

en abroger d'autres.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Call in the members; this will be a five-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 1426 to 1431.

The Speaker: All those in favour will please rise one at a time and be recognized by the Clerk.

Ayes

Arnott, Ted

Baird, John R.

Barrett, Toby

Beaubien, Marcel

Chudleigh, Ted

Clark, Brad

Clement, Tony

Coburn, Brian

Cunningham, Dianne

DeFaria, Carl

Dunlop, Garfield

Ecker, Janet

Elliott, Brenda

Galt, Doug

Gilchrist, Steve

Gill, Raminder

Guzzo, Garry J.

Hardeman, Ernie

Harris, Michael D.

Hodgson, Chris

Hudak, Tim

Jackson, Cameron

Johns, Helen

Kells, Morley

Klees, Frank

Marland, Margaret

Martiniuk, Gerry

Maves, Bart

Mazzilli, Frank

Miller, Norm

Molinari, Tina R.

Munro, Julia

Mushinski, Marilyn

Newman, Dan

O'Toole, John

Ouellette, Jerry J.

Runciman, Robert W.

Sampson, Rob

Snobelen, John

Spina, Joseph

Sterling, Norman W.

Stewart, R. Gary

Stockwell, Chris

Tascona, Joseph N.

Tilson, David

Tsubouchi, David H.

Turnbull, David

Wettlaufer, Wayne

Wilson, Jim

Witmer, Elizabeth

Wood, Bob

Young, David

The Speaker: All those opposed will please rise one at a time and be recognized by the Clerk.

Nays

Agostino, Dominic

Bartolucci, Rick

Bisson, Gilles

Bountrogianni, Marie

Boyer, Claudette

Bradley, James J.

Brown, Michael A.

Bryant, Michael

Caplan, David

Churley, Marilyn

Cleary, John C.

Colle, Mike

Cordiano, Joseph

Crozier, Bruce

Curling, Alvin

Di Cocco, Caroline

Dombrowsky, Leona

Duncan, Dwight

Gerretsen, John

Gravelle, Michael

Hoy, Pat

Kormos, Peter

Kwinter, Monte

Marchese, Rosario

Martel, Shelley

Martin, Tony

McGuinty, Dalton

McLeod, Lyn

McMeekin, Ted

Parsons, Ernie

Patten, Richard

Peters, Steve

Phillips, Gerry

Prue, Michael

Pupatello, Sandra

Ramsay, David

Ruprecht, Tony

Smitherman, George

Sorbara, Greg

Clerk of the House (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 52; the nays are 39.

The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.

Be it resolved that the bill do now pass and be entitled as in the motion.

ORAL QUESTIONS

GOVERNMENT SPENDING

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): My question is for the Chair of Management Board. On November 18, you said that as much as $5

billion would be "immediately" -- that is your word -- "slashed from the budget." Since that time, you've had three full cabinet meetings and you must have had a dozen meetings of the various

cabinet subcommittees. Despite all of this, we have heard absolutely nothing further with respect to your intention regarding cuts. What worries me is that you are keeping the details of these cuts

secret until this Legislature rises so that you might do those and avoid public scrutiny.

You may not believe this, Minister, but I believe that Ontario's families have a right to know what you're thinking of doing when it comes to cuts, and

specifically when those cuts will take effect. I think that's a matter that should be debated in this House. Why don't we begin this debate right now? What exactly are you cutting, and when exactly

will those cuts take effect?

Hon David H. Tsubouchi (Chair of the Management Board of Cabinet): First of all, it would be nice if the Leader of the Opposition would put

things in the proper context. The context I was talking about was the possible worst scenario of about $5 billion. There are a number of projections currently on the economy, as he well knows. I

must say that people tend to forget what bad shape this province was in in 1994, and certainly in 1995, when we came into government. At that time, just to put the context here, previous

governments, the government of the NDP and the government of the Liberals, were spending about $1 million an hour to service the amount of interest owing on the amount the government owed. It's

important for us right now to take a very prudent and cautious approach. We were determined to do this back in 1995, to make sure this government followed this type of prudent and cautious approach

to government. We're doing this type of planning currently.

Mr McGuinty: I wonder if the minister might be able, at some point in time, ideally, to take some responsibility for lending direction to a

fiscal policy for this millennium. You said you were going to immediately cut $5 billion from the budget. You're not telling us what you're looking at.

Let me tell you what we've heard is on the table. Listen to this, Minister: (1) a public sector wage freeze; (2) delisting of podiatry, chiropractic and more

physiotherapy services; (3) a further delay of municipal infrastructure grants to upgrade the safety of our drinking water and highways; (4) $200 million in cuts to child care; and (5) user fees

for our parents and grandparents when it comes to their home care and medication.

Minister, next week this Legislature will rise and likely won't sit again for some four months. That means there will be no questions during that time from the

opposition. That may suit you, but it won't suit our working families. I ask you, can you deny that any or all of those five items which I just listed for you are on the table as part of your

cuts?

Hon Mr Tsubouchi: The Leader of the Opposition has absolutely no idea what he's talking about, absolutely none whatsoever. First of all,

nowhere did I ever say we're looking to cut $5 billion from government. That is blatantly untrue, and he knows full well it is.

What I did indicate was that it is the responsibility of government to look at very responsible and prudent ways to make sure that as we enter next year -- and

I must correct him as well, that this year we'll have a balanced budget; it's very clear we will -- we're doing some planning for the year 2002-03. I think it's very prudent for us to look forward

to doing these things. I was very clear when I spoke about these things: yes, we'll be looking at some expenditure controls; we'll be looking for new revenue streams as well and the possible

privatization of items. It's important for government to examine all these things in order for us to ensure for the people of this province we have a balanced budget and we continue along with

economic --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): The minister's time is up.

Mr McGuinty: Minister, you say that you have to make cuts. We say you could easily cut your $2.2-billion corporate tax cut, you could cut your

private school tax credit and you could finally, once and for all, cut out your partisan political advertising. When it comes to those other things that you feel you have to cut, why don't you come

clean with the people of Ontario? Why don't you tell us exactly what you're looking at? Why do you want to wait until this House recesses and then you have four months, under cover of the

intersession period, to shrink from your responsibility to be accountable for the cuts you want to make? I put five specific things on the table that I've been hearing about. You haven't denied

that a single one of those is in fact not on the table.

I'll give you another opportunity. If these are not on the table, Minister, and you tell us you're looking at upward to $5 billion in cuts, tell me exactly, so

that Ontario families will know, what cuts are you looking at?

Hon Mr Tsubouchi: To the Leader of the Opposition, for the third time, nowhere have I ever said we're looking at $5 billion in cuts. I hope

you understand and appreciate that and listen for a change. We've never said that.

Secondly, this is proper budget planning, something you did not do when you were in government; clearly you did not, because you had a runaway deficit and in

fact you had two sets of books which the NDP had to inherit. We are doing some proper planning. We want to make sure we continue the economic growth. We want to take a prudent and cautious approach

to putting the books of this government in order. We have a commitment to do it, we have done that and we will continue to do that in the future.

COMMUNITY CARE ACCESS CENTRES

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): My question is for the associate minister of health. Minister, your hostile takeover of home

care is wrong, and it's going to hurt our sick, more particularly our parents and our grandparents. I'm not sure how many friends you have when it comes to this legislation, but let me tell you

what I've been hearing. The vice-chair of the Waterloo CCAC calls your legislation "a slap in the face." The board of the Thunder Bay CCAC wonders if you have "lost your mind." The Toronto board

says that this is "nothing short of a gag order." Bob Fera, former PC candidate and founding president of the Ontario CCAC association, spent four hours getting here today to tell you that this is

some of the worst health care planning that he has ever seen.

Minister, the response from around the province from those people who defend the interests of our parents and grandparents is unanimous: it is a resounding no

to your legislation. Will you do the right thing? Withdraw this bill and start over.

Hon Helen Johns (Minister without Portfolio [Health and Long-Term Care]): Let me say that on this side we have heard from the people of

Ontario who are concerned about the community services they are getting. As a result of that, we have moved forward on a number of different fronts to ensure that we can provide the best quality

service to the people of Ontario when it comes to community services. We've looked at the governance model in the legislation. We've looked at management issues and accountability, which we can do

without legislation. We're moving forward to ensure that community health care is the best that it can be in Ontario.

Mr McGuinty: I can see why you may choose to describe it as moving forward, but that's not how our parents and our grandparents and those

volunteers who work for our CCACs see it. They see it as a step backward. They see it as an effort on your part to do nothing more than to take those people who are volunteers in our communities,

who stand up to you and your government's policies and your cuts and your desire to introduce user fees and who defend our parents and our grandparents and their interests when it comes to getting

care in their homes, because you're discharging them quicker and sicker than ever before from hospitals, and you want to take those people and replace them with government appointees. That's what

this legislation is all about. It is nothing more complicated than that. Why don't you do the right thing? Admit that this is really what it's all about and withdraw this bill.

Hon Mrs Johns: Let me say that everyone knows that this government has made a commitment to take volunteers from the community and put them on

the boards. We have made a commitment that there will be community people involved in this. All we're saying is that they're going to be appointed by the Lieutenant Governor in Council.

Let me say that this government has made a commitment to community services. We've moved the budget from approximately $600,000 in 1995 to $1.17 billion

without one red cent from the federal government, and shame on them.

Mr McGuinty: Why don't you just be honest with Ontarians? Tell them that you are discharging people from Ontario hospitals quicker and sicker

than ever before. You have driven up, skyrocketed the demand for CCAC services. In the past, 30% of CCAC clients were coming from the hospital; today 70% of CCAC clients are coming from

hospitals.

If you won't listen to me, listen to Mrs Pauline Ralph. She just sent me a letter to my constituency office. This is what she says about your funding: "My

husband suffers from Alzheimer's disease. I wanted to care for him at home but with all the cutbacks I couldn't get the help I needed. He is now in a long-term-care facility. I still go every day

to help feed him. It is costing me much more in time, health and financially. It is a hardship that at 77 years of age I could do without." You can give me all the gobbledegook and bureaucratese

you want with respect to your additional funding. This is what is happening on the ground.

Your bill is all about shutting down and shutting up community volunteers who work in our CCACs. Do the right thing and withdraw this bill.

Hon Mrs Johns: Not one red cent from the federal government.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): The member for Windsor West, come to order, please. Sorry, Minister.

Hon Mrs Johns: The community recognizes across the province that this government has increased the funding in community care access centres by

72% without one red cent from the federal government. They promised a plan that would give us a national home care program, and where is it? Not one red cent.

This government has had a commitment to community services. We have increased this budget substantially. We're going to use volunteers to make sure this

program continues to run. This government has such a commitment to community services that we're --

The Speaker: The minister's time is up.

COMPETITIVE ELECTRICITY MARKET

Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): I have a question for the Minister of Energy. News reports suggest that the priorities, planning and

communications board of your government will decide tomorrow to set a date for the electricity market opening. You've tried to flog this dirty deal by promising lower rates, but last week Stanley

Hartt, chairman of Salomon Smith Barney, the very company that did the due diligence on your privatization of Bruce power station, said this: "We shouldn't be fixated on keeping prices low." He

said that prices should rise in a free market economy when demand outstrips supply. The question is, do you agree with him, your own adviser on the Bruce deal, that higher electricity rates are

desirable?

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Energy, Science and Technology): I certainly would agree with Mr Hartt to the extent that, yes, if demand does

outstrip supply we would find ourselves in a California-type situation. Thank God this government is planning ahead and we are not California.

The idea is that since the Liberals and NDP left us $38 billion in debt with the old Ontario Hydro monopoly, we can't go to the banks any more to build the new

plants to make sure we always have enough supply to keep our hospitals, our schools and our homes heated and the lights on. We can't go to the banks -- they messed that up for us -- so we have to

go to the private sector. We have to have them take the risk with their money and build the new plants, as they're doing in every other jurisdiction in the western, industrialized world except

Canada and France right now, build the new plants so we never get into the situation like California and have demand outstrip supply.

Ms Churley: So the minister agrees with higher rates. He just admitted that. Salomon Smith Barney also said that the Bruce deal was good for

Ontario. What it appears he meant is that it's a good deal if you want higher rates. The minister should come clean with the public now and admit that privatization will mean much higher rates as

much of our electricity gets sold to the US.

You should also come clean about the Bruce deal, which you said was available to the public. We took you up on your suggestion and we got all the documents

available about that deal. But guess what? OPG refused to release the so-called confidentiality agreement between themselves and Bruce Power. So, Minister, I'm asking you, why are you trying to

hide the Bruce deal from the public?

Hon Mr Wilson: Clearly, I've answered this question several times in this House and in committee. The Ontario auditor has the entire Bruce

deal. I provided your leader with the Bruce deal I don't know how many times. The Bruce deal is available in the local library up near the Bruce community, in Kincardine. It also was the subject of

several weeks of federal hearings with the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission, public hearings, before they gave Bruce Nuclear a licence to operate the plant. The deal has been out there. The only

party, it seems, that can't read in this Legislature and in this province is the NDP.

Secondly, they want to talk about higher rates. One of the reasons we need to change the system is that rates went up 60% during their five years in office. So

higher hydro rates in homes and our businesses' rates went up even more, but the average is 60%.

And they left us $38 billion in debt. We have no lessons to learn from the NDP about the future of the electricity system in this province.

Ms Churley: Minister, you don't have a clue what you're talking about. You should get your facts straight. The bottom line here is that your

dirty deal will mean much higher rates. That is a fact now, and you should admit it. It is also going to mean more pollution, because those coal plants will be burning more of the time to sell

power to the US.

You tried to sell this deal by saying that rates would come down, and so, may I add, did Donald Macdonald, the former Liberal cabinet minister you hired who

said we should take a leap of faith and support deregulation and privatization.

Minister, you are the one who is responsible and accountable here, and I am asking you, will you resign if electricity privatization does not result in the

lower rates you've been promising?

Hon Mr Wilson: What we'll have in this province, like so many other jurisdictions now in the world, will be competitive electricity rates for

the first time in the 93-year history of our electricity system. Competitive rates have brought, in the telecom business, in the natural gas business, even with the bump we saw last year and

earlier this year, overall lower rates than we would have had under the old monopoly system.

The honourable member talks about selling power to the US and she says that somehow deregulation or introducing competition will be bad for the environment.

There's no environmental group in this province today, whether it's the Clean Air Alliance, Pollution Probe etc, that believes the environment will get worse. In fact, for the first time, green

energy and the ability for consumers to buy green energy, like the windmill that's on the top of Blue Mountain -- you'll be able to buy that power and it will no longer be illegal.

Under their system and, God love you, some Tories in the past under previous governments, it was illegal to buy green power. It won't be --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): The minister's time is up.

ACADEMIC TESTING

Mr Rosario Marchese (Trinity-Spadina): My question is to the Minister of Education. Mon amie, it looks like the dog ate your homework again.

Your fumbling Education Quality and Accountability Office lost 2,000 grade 6 tests, and parents and teachers are reeling. Your office doesn't know which schools are affected and when or if these

tests might be found. You've blown it on this $9-million test, and the total of what you have bungled on these tests is about 20 million bucks. Instead of investing in things that really matter,

investing in students, you're throwing away money on an inefficient bureaucracy, something you would know much about. My question to you is, when is it going to stop?

Hon Janet Ecker (Minister of Education, Government House Leader): To the honourable member, I appreciate his concern for my dog, but I don't

have one and there's nothing wrong there. But I would like to assure the honourable member that nothing has been lost. No money has been wasted. There have been some information technology issues,

which EQAO is dealing with, and that is the extent of the problem.

Mr Marchese: Reports from the Hamilton Spectator -- they could be wrong -- and other reports from Ottawa say that 2,000 tests have been lost.

I'm happy to hear the government obviously saying that they haven't been lost when so many reports from the quality and accountability office are saying, "We can't find them. We're working hard,

but we can't find them," and the minister says, "No, they're not lost." It's interesting.

Hundreds of Ontario schools are scrambling to correct mistakes made by your office, after a nightmare of a testing season. Some 2,000 of them lost, data not

recorded, inaccurate student test results, chaos for boards, more paperwork for overworked school staff, and she says nothing has been lost. I don't get it.

When are you going to listen to teachers and let them teach our kids and learn in peace, and finally admit that your testing scheme is a boondoggle? When are

you going to admit that?

Hon Mrs Ecker: I appreciate that the Hamilton Spectator has a very entertaining writing style. I would like to caution the NDP. I thought we

in this Legislature gave them resources for research. I would encourage you to use them, please.

There have been some computer glitches about reading the results. What the EQAO is doing is going back to the original test results and marking them, doing it

manually to ensure all the data are there. It does not affect the province-wide standards. It does not affect the standings of schools. It does not affect the individual outcomes for students. They

are working to ensure the computer glitch is settled.

I appreciate the honourable member's concern. I also am very surprised, given that his government and his party brought in a Royal Commission on Learning that

recommended testing. They supported it. Now he says they don't support it. Flip-flop from the NDP, yet again.

HEALTH CARE FUNDING

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): My question's for the Minister of Health. In his recent report, the Provincial Auditor found

that, despite the fact that Health Canada and your own expert medical panel were approving medications, prescription drugs, the government was refusing, you were refusing, to pay for them. Of the

182 medications recommended by your own expert medical panel, 142 were not included in the provincial drug plan. I'm talking here about drugs that save lives, drugs that heal people, drugs that

treat pain. Minister, isn't making sure that these drugs are available to our families more important than a corporate tax cut?

Hon Tony Clement (Minister of Health and Long-Term Care): As the honourable member is undoubtedly aware, one of the fastest-growing areas of

provincial expenditure -- incidentally, with 100% provincial dollars, no federal dollars whatsoever -- is on the drug formulary and the Ontario drug benefit and Trillium drug plans. This fiscal

year, for instance, the budget has increased by close to 17%. This is something that has happened year over year.

We are very interested in the auditor's findings. I can tell the honourable member that on any potential savings the auditor finds, of course we will follow up

on that. We would like to reinvest those in priority health care areas. You may know that our Premier has taken a leadership role nationally in working with other Premiers to ensure we are looking

at national solutions -- with the federal government, incidentally -- when it comes to the appropriate way to approve additional medications on our drug formularies.

Mr McGuinty: Minister, I'm looking for you to provide some leadership when it comes to championing the cause of health care for all Ontarians.

I expected you to stand up just a minute ago and say, "I will not stand for this $2.2-billion corporate tax cut, because it's coming at the expense of meeting my health care responsibilities."

That's what I expected you to say.

Let's talk about Visudyne for a minute. Visudyne is an important medication that saves vision. Without it, Ontarians are literally going blind. Five provincial

governments -- Alberta, Quebec, Manitoba, Nova Scotia and Saskatchewan -- already insure Visudyne. They cover this disease that affects our parents and our grandparents. We are one of the last

provinces that hasn't added this sight-saving drug to our drug plan.

Tell me again, why is it we can't afford to fund Visudyne in Ontario, but on the other hand we've got $2.2 billion for corporate tax cuts?

Hon Mr Clement: As the honourable member knows, our tax cuts have created jobs and opportunity and economic growth in our province. If the

honourable member were really interested in better health care for Ontarians, he'd ask his federal kissing cousins why we're spending $750 dollars a second on health care, while Ottawa contributes

just $107. He'd ask his federal counterparts, all Liberals, why they are not living up to their responsibilities under the Canada Health Act.

I would like to ask the honourable member, did he agree with Brian Tobin when he was Premier of Newfoundland? Brian Tobin said at the time, "I believe, as do

my fellow Premiers, that an urgent and substantial allocation of federal funding is needed to meet the needs of our health care system. Canadians expect their federal government to be a full

partner in the health care system. This cannot happen when the federal government contributes only 13 cents to every dollar spent on health." Does he agree with Brian Tobin, does he agree with Mike

Harris, or is he sitting on the fence with Jean Chrétien?

SERVICES FOR ABUSED WOMEN

Mr Doug Galt (Northumberland): My question today is for the Minister of Community and Social Services. One of the key announcements from the

May 2001 budget was an increase in government support for violence against women services. I know that in eastern Ontario there has been a long-standing need to increase the services available to

help women who need to flee an abusive situation. This need is especially pressing when children are caught in the middle of domestic violence. Minister, what I'd really like to know is how this

announcement will benefit communities in eastern Ontario and how many long-needed spaces will be added to the violence against women system.

Hon John R. Baird (Minister of Community and Social Services, minister responsible for children, minister responsible for francophone

affairs): Expanding supports to victims of crime is an important priority and an important responsibility, particularly providing supports to women who are seeking to flee violence in the

home. We all look at our homes as a place of sanctuary and I think that, for far too many women, when they put the key in the door is when the fear begins.

We will be making some substantial expansions throughout eastern Ontario, including establishing two new shelters for violence against women in Ottawa, one in

the east end and one in the west end, adding 40 beds to the system. We'll be adding another five beds in the city of Kingston and refurbishing an additional 20 there. In Lindsay and Brockville, we

will be replacing two shelters that were in poor condition and refurbishing an additional 28 beds. This is in addition to the substantial amount of effort my colleague the Attorney General has made

in expanding our domestic violence courts. It demonstrates the strong commitment we have to providing supports at the community level in this important responsibility that we all share, not just

those of us in government but as people in our society.

Mr Galt: Thank you very much, Minister. Those investments are certainly good news. In my own riding, after previous governments refused to

open a shelter for women, we opened one in the winter of 1997, and I know how appreciated it was.

The investments in new and refurbished shelters are certainly a step in the right direction, but this investment is only one part of the approach the

government needs to take to stop domestic violence. We also need a strong network of services and other resources to help women in an abusive relationship. There need to be increased counselling

supports for women and children who are victims of domestic violence. We also need better supports in the justice system to deal with domestic abuse.

Beyond the bricks and mortar of new shelter spaces, what action has the government taken to make sure there are strong services, to make sure there's more than

just a bed?

Hon Mr Baird: There had been some criticism that we've put so much emphasis as a government into expanding the domestic violence courts

through a successive number of Attorneys General. That's why we've increased some support at the community level. In last year's budget we added $10 million to help children who were the victims of

violence and witnesses of violence, $5 million for transitional programs. We've also increased operating supports for shelters by $3 million this year, going to $9 million. We've added a

substantial amount of support.

One of the advantages people in the city of Toronto have compared to people in rural Ontario, like the member for Northumberland's constituency, is benefiting

from the Assaulted Women's Helpline. A group came forward to the government requesting some financial assistance to expand the system right across the province, and we were pleased to provide more

than $4 million of financial support over the next number of years to make that a reality. That also included more than $200,000 to ensure we can expand services and supports to francophone women

who are seeking services and support in French, in their own language.

GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY

Mr John Gerretsen (Kingston and the Islands): My question is to the Premier. I'm sure you will agree with me that the integrity of this

assembly and the proper and effective functioning of its officers and committees are of critical importance in our parliamentary democracy. One of those officers is our Provincial Auditor. His

mission is to assist the assembly in holding the government and its administrators accountable for the quality of the administration's stewardship of public funds, something we're all interested

in.

Premier, as you know, on page 2 of the auditor's report, the auditor felt obligated, for the first time in the nine years that he has been auditor, to actually

indicate that a ministry, the Ministry of Transportation, acted contrary to

section 10 of the Audit Act in that the senior management of the ministry "hindered the audit process" by not giving the

staff of the auditor "full access to pertinent files," and not providing all the necessary information. Do you not agree with me, Premier, that under these circumstances the minister should step

aside until such time as --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): I'm afraid the member's time is up.

Hon Michael D. Harris (Premier): Actually, nothing could be further from the truth. If you understand the purpose of the auditor, he is our

friend -- he is the politician's friend, he is the public's friend -- in holding the bureaucracy accountable.

Interjections.

Hon Mr Harris: To respond to all the interjections too, if you want me to answer all those, quite appropriately it is not something that at

the level of that inquiry involves the minister, nor should it involve the minister, and in fact, it would be inappropriate to involve the minister.

What occurred was, the auditor requested information and the deputy at the time felt she was complying with both the confidentiality of cabinet and the Audit

Act; the auditor disagreed. The deputy did the correct thing, took it to my deputy, and the matter was resolved to the satisfaction of the auditor. The auditor got the documentation that the

auditor requested, and I believe he acknowledges that, yes, the protocol he worked out with my deputy was appropriate.

That's where those requests at that stage --

The Speaker: I'm afraid the Premier's time is up.

Mr Gerretsen: Premier, you know that the minister is ultimately responsible for the goings-on within a department. But it goes much further

than that. I would ask you to look at page 243, where the subsequent minister, in a letter that he wrote to the auditor, states unequivocally, "I appreciate the gravity of the issues you raised and

as I said at our meeting, I am deeply distressed at the matters brought to my attention."

How can you expect us to accept your answer when, in effect, the successor to the then minister completely agrees that those were issues that should have been

dealt with, were of grave importance and were contrary to the Audit Act? How can you allow a minister to function within your cabinet who has contravened

section 10 of the Audit Act and in effect

prevented an officer of this assembly from doing the proper work for all of us?

Interjections.

The Speaker: The Premier's time will start now.

Hon Mr Harris: I know the member opposite doesn't wish to read page 271, and I understand your selective reading. If you understand the way

the process works at the early stage, it involves the bureaucrats. It was resolved by the bureaucrats. However, when you find the auditor is ready to make a report, at that point it would be

brought to the attention of the minister. That would be the first opportunity the minister would have to look at it. The minister made the appropriate response. All the procedures were followed.

The protocol has been done there. It is actually quite a routine matter.

Mr Gerretsen: On a point of order, Speaker: Page 271 --

The Speaker: Don't waste time in question period going back like that. I've said it before: don't waste time in question period doing

that.

COMMUNITY CARE ACCESS CENTRES

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): My question is to the associate minister of health and long-term care. I know I could just step forward and speak to

her directly as I often do, but the importance of asking this question on the public record is to allow the minister to respond and I can send it to my constituents.

Minister, as you might know, the Durham MPPs, Team Durham, recently had the opportunity to meet with Durham Access to Care people, as we do quarterly, just to

keep in touch with their concerns and these volunteer boards.

Laughter.

Mr O'Toole: There's quite a bit of humour going on here just now.

By way of background, this CCAC in Durham has an excellent reputation for assisting residents of Durham riding, and indeed the entire Durham region, in care in

people's homes. Some of their achievements include a five-star rating for hospital-community care access relations on the OHA hospital report card, only one of two --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): The member's time is up.

Mr O'Toole: I seek unanimous consent to finish my question.

The Speaker: No. It was your own members laughing.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. The minister's time is to respond.

Hon Helen Johns (Minister without Portfolio [Health and Long-Term Care]): I'd like to thank the member for Durham for his question. I also

want to say that it's always a pleasure to hear that a community care access centre is running efficiently, running effectively and is serving the people of its area. From that standpoint I'd like

to applaud the CCAC and Durham.

I would like to say, though, that the member raises a very interesting question when he talks about the community advisory council. If the legislation is

approved and it has royal assent, it is our intention to set up a council within each community so that the long-term-care facilities, the community services, the hospitals and the CCACs can come

together to make sure that we keep the continuum of care going within the community, so that we best serve the people of that community.

What will happen in this particular case is that community services such as were talked about by the member would be integrated into the system as they haven't

been before, so that information and referral could be passed on to the people of the community. We believe this will make a better --

The Speaker: The minister's time is up. Supplementary.

Mr O'Toole: Thank you very much for that very detailed response, Minister. I know in responding to my constituents, the attendant care and

hospice care are very important ongoing services that should be coordinated, and I believe that you have the courage to move forward with that coordination.

I also want to be assured that the Durham MPPs are very supportive of the current board and CEO of Durham Access to Care. They are working to budgets. They are

also serving people. I support them, and I support you as minister to do the right thing and to move this legislation forward to provide coordinated services, not just in Durham, but for all the

people of Ontario who need services in their home, closest to where they need them.

Hon Mrs Johns: I missed the question there. Let me just say that when it comes to community care access centres, what we want to do is to

ensure that we have a consistent program across the province; we want to make sure that we have consistent governance models. Hence we're bringing forward Bill 130. We also want to ensure that

there's more accountability within the system, and so we're bringing through a number of initiatives -- in the legislation and outside the legislation -- to ensure that there's a strategic plan,

that it meets the government's vision, and the government's vision is very clear: to ensure that the people of the province get the services where they need them and when they need them.

We also want to develop an evidence-based performance measurement so that we can ensure that people are getting the services they need. We want to also look at

common benchmarks. All of these things will be happening with the Ministry of Health over the ensuing months.

ONTARIANS WITH

DISABILITIES LEGISLATION

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): My question is for the Minister of Citizenship. We're on day four of public hearings on the ODA and the

message is loud and clear: your ODA bill just doesn't cut it.

Yesterday Anna Germain asked, "Is this all that the government can come up with, a planning exercise that may give an illusion of doing good? What a shame.

This bill is a slap in the face of all who waited for real help with dignity and equity."

The Canadian Hearing Society states, "Without amendments this bill is, at best, a missed opportunity. At worst, it will create new barriers and will be costly

in time, money and human dignity."

We will be putting forward significant amendments to this legislation. Minister, will you commit right here and now to making all the changes necessary to make

this a bill worth saving?

Hon Cameron Jackson (Minister of Citizenship, minister responsible for seniors): I have been reading each and every one of the briefs that

have been presented. I have been encouraged by the manner in which so many organizations across Ontario have embraced this legislation and felt that it was a good first step. They want to work with

the government in developing it.

I find it passing strange that the member opposite has yet to indicate to the disabled community of this province what he and his party are prepared to do for

disabled persons. You've made no commitment whatsoever. You made no commitment to Gary Malkowski when he was a member of your caucus. You made no commitment when you ran up a $50-billion deficit in

this province and had no legacy to show for the disabled persons in this province.

Yes, this government is proceeding with this historic legislation because they waited for five or six years of your government, and this government's going to

deliver on its promise for an Ontarians with Disabilities Act.

Mr Martin: Well, Minister, I've been to all the hearings. Even the people you've brought in to speak favourably on the bill can only say,

"Better than nothing." More people say that your legislation will make things worse for people with disabilities. The Multiple Sclerosis Society says, "We regret we must voice our opposition to

this bill unless you are prepared to make major amendments." Will you listen, Minister? Will you make the amendments and fix this bill?

Hon Mr Jackson: The government has indicated clearly that through the process of public consultation we will have opportunities to strengthen

this bill. We will have an opportunity to clarify that there are mandatory provisions in this legislation, unprecedented; that in this legislation, for the first time in Ontario's history, we will

make a legislated, mandated directorate for disabled persons, that they will have a voice. They will be consulted in the construction of the regulations that will govern this bill and the conduct

of municipalities and all government agencies.

The member must be sitting in on the wrong hearings. I have the brief from the Canadian Paraplegic Association Ontario. It clearly says in their brief, "The

CPA Ontario is pleased to lend its support to this historic legislation." They support it. They want to work with the government --

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Order. The member for Prince Edward-Hastings, please come to order.

Sorry for the interruption, Minister. His time was almost done, but I apologize for cutting him off at the end.

LONDON HEALTH SCIENCES CENTRE

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Thunder Bay-Atikokan): My question is for the Minister of Health. I want to refer you to a November 29

article in the Chatham

Daily News in which your spokesperson Gordon Haugh makes it quite clear that you do not intend to reinstate the pediatric cardiac surgery program at the London Health Sciences Centre. Mr Haugh

specifically relates that decision to the coroner's investigation into deaths that resulted from two procedures undertaken in the pediatric cardiac surgery department of the London Health Sciences

Centre.

This is consistent with the attempts of government members to defend the cutting of 18 programs at the London Health Sciences Centre. Your colleagues from the

London area have repeatedly referred to questions of clinical standards, as if concerns about patient safety were the reason for the shutdown of these programs. I suggest to you that this is

clearly an organized line of defence and, whoever has orchestrated it, the result is the same. You have publicly called into question the competence not only of an individual surgeon but of the

entire pediatric cardiac surgical unit of the London Health Sciences Centre. You've exploited personal tragedies and heightened the anxieties of families who have sought treatment for desperately

ill children at that centre. Minister, how can you permit such an inexcusable attack as a defence for a cost-cutting decision?

Hon Tony Clement (Minister of Health and Long-Term Care): I'm a human being and I will do my best not to lower myself to the level of that

question. I'm really quite shocked and disappointed with the allegation that the honourable member has made. I will merely put on to the record one more time that, from our perspective as a

government in Ontario, we wish to ensure that there is clinical efficacy in all of our hospitals, that they meet the standards that we expect for every single patient -- children included, and

especially.

We have evidence that when it comes to these kinds of medical procedures to which the honourable member refers, it is absolutely clear that there has to be a

certain level of frequency and a certain level of volume. This is something the Ontario Hospital Association has agreed to, as well as the deputy chief coroner. We want the best results in our

hospitals, regardless of location. That includes the London hospital and it certainly includes --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Supplementary?

Mrs McLeod: Lower yourself, Minister. That's why I asked the question, because I think it is important finally to put the facts of the

coroner's investigation on the table.

Let's make it clear: there are four categories of risk in pediatric cardiac surgery. In the two higher risk categories, there are 13 specific types of

procedures performed. The coroner investigated concerns related to two specific types of procedures. The concerns of both the coroner and the independent reviewer were with low volumes in those two

procedures and certainly not with the competencies of the surgical team, nor was there any recommendation from the independent reviewer that the pediatric cardiac surgery program should be shut

down.

I suggest to you that concerns with two procedures are not a justification for shutting down the entire pediatric cardiac surgery program. I suggest to you

further that concerns with two procedures in the pediatric cardiac surgical program are not a justification for shutting down 17 other totally unrelated programs.

Minister, these were cuts made to the London Health Sciences Centre because you demanded that the London Health Sciences Centre balance its budgets. Will you

stop perpetuating and stop your members from perpetuating this completely false and inexcusable defence --

The Speaker: The time is up.

Hon Mr Clement: The honourable member knows full well that base funding for this hospital has increased by 25% in the last three years. So it

is not a question of money; it's a question of performance in every single case. We judge performance of every hospital in this province.

The honourable member knows, because I know she was briefed by the deputy chief coroner, that it is not about two procedures; it's about 56 procedures.

Mrs McLeod: No, it's not.

Hon Mr Clement: It is.

The honourable member knows that the two procedures to which she refers have been characterized by the deputy chief coroner as harbingers, as indications that

there are other difficulties in the program. The honourable member knows that because she was briefed by the deputy chief coroner. I encourage her to do what is best for Ontarians and their health

when asking questions the way she asks them.

SCHOOL BUSES

Mr Bill Murdoch (Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound): My question is to the Minister of Education. As she already knows, and a lot of people know, we've

had difficulty in our riding with the Bluewater board of education and funding for our busing. The formula just doesn't seem to work that well in rural and northern Ontario. My board has been

forced into a deficit position.

I would like to ask the minister what she can do this year to help out my board and many other boards in rural Ontario with the busing situation, as there are

many boards facing this problem.

Hon Janet Ecker (Minister of Education, Government House Leader): I certainly appreciate the question from the member from Bruce-Grey-Owen

Sound on this issue. I agree that bus transportation is an area where additional support is required for our bus operators. The government has done this on a one-time basis before. We will be doing

it again this year. Details of that announcement will be coming out within several days.

Mr Murdoch: OK, that sounds like you've solved my problem for this year. It sounds like that, and I'll take your word. That's OK for this

year, Madam Minister. What are we going to do from now on, though? The formula does not work in rural and northern Ontario, so we need to work on this formula. Will you give this House today your

promise that you will sit down --

Interjections.

Mr Murdoch: Are you heckling me? It's bad enough to get heckled from the other side, but when you get your own guys heckling, especially Mr

Stockwell --

Minister, will you commit today to help us work out this formula so we don't have to come begging for money every year to help us out with our busing?

Applause.

Hon Mrs Ecker: I appreciate the question from the honourable member, and I think perhaps I'm getting overshadowed here by the applause for the

honourable member's supplementary. When it comes to fighting for his constituents, he is rarely satisfied. I appreciate that.

There are two issues: remote and rural boards have required additional supports. We have indeed done that in many ways in the last year or two with funding,

given them additional supports. We quite recognize that with declining enrolment, some of these remote rural boards have an additional challenge in transportation. We have pilot projects which are

looking at how best to work out these funding arrangements, and we will indeed be making decisions around how we should move forward. I agree it is not an equitable funding mechanism right now. We

need to change it. We're working to do that.

Mr Murdoch: Point of order, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Stop the clock.

Mr Murdoch: Mr Speaker, do we still have late shows? Is that still on? OK. I was just wondering.

ASSISTANCE TO FARMERS

Mr Ted McMeekin (Ancaster-Dundas-Flamborough-Aldershot): My question is for the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs. Throughout

the highways and byways and in every barn in Ancaster and Flamborough, farmers are raising questions about the long-awaited made-in-Ontario safety net farm program. We know that talks and

consultations have been held for months and that you have been making grandiose statements about the program -- yet still nothing.

Minister, the time for talk is long past and the time for action is now. You've had a proposal on your desk since the spring, but only now have you commenced

negotiation with the federal government. While little has been happening, Agricorp tells us that this year we'll see the highest crop insurance payout ever. Our farmers are worried, and with good

reason. With no market revenue in place for crops to be harvested and low yields, this is a grim scenario, as you know, for our farmers. I ask, will you announce your made-in-Ontario safety net

program? When will you make that announcement for our farmers?

Hon Brian Coburn (Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs): Our concerns for the agricultural community and the contribution they make

to the economic vitality of this province is well understood by this side of the House. We contributed $90 million in the spring when they had some difficulties. After that, we sat down with them

and I'm very pleased to say they did work with us to develop a made-in-Ontario safety net solution which I have now forwarded on and we're negotiating with the federal government. As you know, this

is a tripartite agreement, and as we go through negotiations, I'm hopeful that the federal government understands the severity of this, as we do, and comes forward and signs this agreement very

shortly.

Mr McMeekin: Grain and oilseeds, edible horticulture and others are all having very serious problems, as you know. They've got to be

addressed, and they've got to be addressed now. It's not enough to repeatedly raise expectations and talk about these ongoing negotiations about the made-in-Ontario program. In fact, it's well

beyond time that we put some real substance to what I would concede are some well-meaning promises.

Minister, I'd like to know what you're waiting for. You've had this report since the spring. Will you today, right now in the House, assume the leadership role

we all expect on this side and that side of the House from a Minister of Agriculture? Will you tell Ontario farmers finally and specifically how much money will be allocated and exactly when you

intend to announce our made-in-Ontario program? Will you provide them with the answers they're seeking and deserve?

Hon Mr Coburn: I'm not prepared to announce the funding portion of it today. We're negotiating with the federal government, and you can

appreciate how hard it is to pin them down on anything. I have got the assurance and confidence and support of our caucus here on the made-in-Ontario solution.

Some of the points, in case you missed the press release, Mr Speaker: crop insurance is available for 53 commodities in which premiums are cost-shared by

producers, the federal government and the provincial governments; an income support program for producers of grains and oilseeds, commodities that governments elsewhere subsidize highly and

unfairly; self-directed risk management for our fruit and vegetable growers and maple syrup producers as an alternative to crop insurance; working to enhance the net income stabilization account,

NISA, a national program that allows farmers to better balance income fluctuations; and a disaster assistance program to be used as required by producers faced with circumstances well beyond their

control.

POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION

Ms Marilyn Mushinski (Scarborough Centre): My question is for the Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities. We know that Ontario's

colleges of applied arts and technology have played a vital role in preparing Ontarians for leading-edge careers in our province. Colleges such as Centennial College of Applied Arts and Technology

in my riding of Scarborough Centre are focused on career-oriented and applied education, support a substantial part of our apprenticeship system and are responsive to the needs of their local

communities. Minister, yesterday you introduced legislation that would create a new charter for Ontario colleges and recognize the increasingly important role that they play in our communities and

economy. Could you please tell this House how this new legislation will strengthen Ontario's colleges of applied arts and technology?

Hon Dianne Cunningham (Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities, minister responsible for women's issues): I appreciate the question

from my colleague from Scarborough Centre, who represents her riding, but especially Centennial College.

If passed, the Ontario Colleges of Applied Arts and Technology Act, 2001, will fulfill a commitment made by our government to provide a new charter for

Ontario's colleges, and it will reform the colleges, allowing them to become more flexible, more entrepreneurial, responsive and market-driven, which of course is not only good for students; it's

good for all of Ontario, because we do want to provide trained students to take the jobs, especially within their own local community. So accommodating a greater degree of diversity among the

colleges to address the aspirations of students and the needs of employers and the communities served by colleges is something that I know Centennial will very much appreciate.

I did notice today that the president of the student organization at Centennial College was very pleased with this legislation. Thyagi DeLanerolle, the

president --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): I'm afraid the minister's time is up; she went over the time. Supplementary?

Ms Mushinski: Minister, I met with Thyagi last week, and I know she's particularly pleased with this piece of legislation, which is clearly an

important step in our government's plan to ensure future growth and prosperity in Ontario. If passed, this legislation will recognize the excellent and important work that Ontario's colleges are

doing and give them the tools to play an even more important role. It's clear that as the demands of students and employers change, our post-secondary education system must change too. As in all

developed economies, education and training is becoming an increasingly important factor in economic development in Ontario.

While I'm pleased that our government is increasing autonomy and flexibility for our colleges to respond to these changes, I'd like to ask the minister how the

Ontario Colleges of Applied Arts and Technology Act fits into our government's overall agenda for post-secondary education and training.

Hon Mrs Cunningham: As I was saying, Thyagi DeLanerolle is delighted to see Ontario recognize and bestow legislative rights to student

governments, and that's extremely important, because students do have a say in the operation of their colleges and the programs that will be offered.

The increased capacity in the next few years for our colleges and universities will be there to address the anticipated growth of our students over the next 10

years. With the partners' contributions, we're spending over $1 billion in new buildings: 25 new college buildings, 25 new university buildings and nine for collaborative programs. This is an

exciting time. It's the largest growth period in 30 years in our post-secondary system.

The operating grants will be up by $293 million above 2001 levels. These are more resources so the colleges and universities can plan for this new double

cohort of students.

COLLÈGE DES GRANDS LACS

M. Gilles Bisson (Timmins-Baie James) : Ma question s'adresse à la ministre des Collèges et Universités. Comme vous le

savez, madame la ministre, aujourd'hui la Cour supérieure de l'Ontario a donné sa décision envers le Collège des Grands Lacs. La cour a ordonné que le collège ferme

ses portes aux élèves de première année.

Il y a deux questions qui sont très importantes et vous avez besoin d'y répondre pour les étudiants.

La première question, c'est qu'il y a à peine sept jours avant la fin du semestre d'automne, et les élèves aimeraient savoir s'il est

possible, dans le moindre des moins, s'ils seraient capables de finir leur semestre d'automne pour avoir leurs crédits pour continuer leur prochain semestre à une autre institution.

La deuxième est la question des frais de scolarité. Beaucoup de ces élèves ont payé leurs frais de scolarité au collège,

mais le collège va fermer. Les élèves veulent être rassurés que les frais de scolarité leur seront remboursés et qu'ils peuvent utiliser cet argent pour continuer

leur éducation dans une autre institution. Êtes-vous préparée à répondre à ces deux questions ?

Hon Dianne Cunningham (Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities, minister responsible for women's issues): I'll make every effort to do

so in answering my colleague.

I think it needs to be made very clear that when these things happen across the system, the government remains committed to ensuring that our students get the

high-quality education they expect, and especially our francophone students in southwest and central Ontario.

So in answer to the first question, I'm personally pleased that the court has concluded this uncertainty for the students. The first-year students, in fact,

will be expected to finish their education. Arrangements were made, even before we got into this situation, that they work with Collège Boréal and others. There will be classes right here

in Toronto.

With regard to the fees, I don't have a direct answer, but I will speak to my colleague, upon getting the information. Normally, these kinds of things are

worked out fairly with students. That would be our expectation this time as well.

M. Bisson: Point d'ordre.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Members, the time is up.

Mr Bisson: Point of order.

The Speaker: Oh, point of order. Sorry.

show on that answer.

The Speaker: I didn't know what he was after. You can file the appropriate paper with the table.

PETITIONS

PODIATRIC SERVICES

Mr David Caplan (Don Valley East): I have a petition. It is titled "Foot Care Is Not a Luxury."

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas services delisted by the Harris government now exceed $100 million in total;

"Whereas Ontarians depend on podiatrists for relief from painful foot conditions;

"Whereas new Harris government policy will virtually eliminate access to publicly funded podiatry across vast regions of Ontario;

"Whereas this new Harris government policy is virtually impossible to implement in underserviced areas across Ontario;

"Whereas this policy will lengthen waiting lists for patients, and therefore have a detrimental effect on the health of Ontarians;

"Therefore,

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, petition the Ontario Legislature to demand the Mike Harris government move immediately to cancel the

delisting of podiatric services."

It's an excellent petition. I agree wholeheartedly and I have affixed my signature.

DOCTOR SHORTAGE

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the provincial Durham riding, including Clarington, Scugog township and portions of north and east Oshawa, comprise one of the fastest-growing

communities in Canada; and

"Whereas the residents of Durham riding are experiencing difficulty locating family physicians who are willing to accept new patients; and

"Whereas the good health of Durham riding residents depends on a long-term relationship with a family physician who can provide ongoing care; and

"Whereas the lack of family physicians puts unnecessary demands on walk-in clinics and" hospital "emergency departments;

"We, the undersigned, respectfully petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the government of Ontario will:

"Do everything within its power to immediately assess the needs of Durham riding and the Durham region, and work with the Ontario Medical Association, the

College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario, local health care providers and elected officials to ensure there are enough family physicians available to serve this community;

"Make every effort to recruit doctors to set up practices in underserviced areas, and provide suitable incentives that will encourage them to stay in these

communities;

"Continue its efforts to increase the number of physicians being trained in Ontario medical schools, and also continue its program to enable foreign-trained

doctors to qualify" to practise medicine "in Ontario."

I'm completely in support of this petition. On behalf of my constituents, I'll add my name to the list as well.

LONDON HEALTH SCIENCES CENTRE

Mr Pat Hoy (Chatham-Kent Essex): "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the London Health Sciences Centre is a world-class academic health sciences centre serving people throughout southwestern Ontario; and

"Whereas the Ministry of Health has forced the London Health Sciences Centre to find $17 million in annual savings by 2005; and

"Whereas the London Health Sciences Centre has agreed to cut 18 programs in order to satisfy directions from the provincial Ministry of Health; and

"Whereas these cuts will put the health of the people in southwestern Ontario, and particularly children, at risk; and

"Whereas these cuts will diminish the London Health Sciences Centre's standing as a regional health care resource; and

"Whereas these cuts will worsen the continuing physician shortage in the region;

"Therefore,

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, petition the Ontario Legislature to demand that the Mike Harris government take immediate action to ensure

these important health services are maintained, so that the health and safety of people throughout southwestern Ontario are not put at risk."

I too have signed this petition.

LONG-TERM CARE

Ms Shelley Martel (Nickel Belt): I have a petition sent to me by SEIU local 204. It reads as follows:

"Whereas the Ontario government abandoned the minimum requirement for 2.25 hours per day of nursing care for seniors in nursing homes; and

"Whereas the Ontario government's own study in January 2001 showed Ontario's long-term-care residents receive less nursing, bathing and general care than

elderly people in comparable jurisdictions in Canada, the United States and Europe; and

"Whereas poor management of residents leads to excessive acute care hospital stays and added strain on staffing levels in long-term-care facilities; and

"Whereas Ontario's long-term-care residents now receive an average of only 2.04 hours of care per day, well below the level of care of 4.2 hours that even the

state of Mississippi provides; and

"Whereas US studies have indicated that total nursing care hours for long-term-care residents should be in the range of 4.55 total hours of care per resident

per day;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"We call on the government of Ontario to regulate a minimum requirement of at least 3.5 hours of care per resident per day."

I agree with the petitioners and I have affixed my signature to this petition.

HOME CARE

Mr Gerry Martiniuk (Cambridge): I have a petition signed by close to 500 good citizens of Cambridge, which reads:

"We, the undersigned, wish to express our concerns over the effects of ongoing home care cuts of our most vulnerable citizens."

I affix my name thereto.

EDUCATION FUNDING

Mrs Leona Dombrowsky (Hastings-Frontenac-Lennox and Addington): "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the funding for school boards is now based on student-focused funding legislative grants for the 2001-02 school board fiscal year;

"Whereas the Hastings and Prince Edward District School Board is in a period of declining enrolment, a trend that is projected to continue over the next five

years;

"Whereas applications of the student-focused funding model for 2001-02 does not allow sufficient funding to the Hastings and Prince Edward District School

Board for secretarial support in schools, principals and vice-principals, transportation, or school operations;

"Whereas costs in these areas cannot be reduced at the same rate as the enrolment declines,

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"To reassess the student-focused funding legislative grants for the 2002-03 school board fiscal year to provide additional funding for those areas where

funding is insufficient and to adjust future student-focused funding legislative grants to address the situation of declining enrolments faced by the Hastings and Prince Edward District School

Board and other boards in Ontario."

I sign my signature to this petition.

CHILD CARE

Ms Shelley Martel (Nickel Belt): I have a petition sent to me by my friends at Seneca College. It reads as follows:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas an internal government document indicates the Conservative government is considering cutting the regulated child care budget by at least 40%;

"Whereas the same internal document indicates the government is also considering completely cutting all funding for regulated child care and family resource

programs in Ontario;

"Whereas the Conservative government has already cut funding for regulated child care by 15% between 1995 and 1998 and downloaded 20% of the child care and

family resource program budget on to municipalities;

"Whereas further cuts would run counter to the support identified for regulated child care and family resource centres by Fraser Mustard and Margaret

McCain;

"Whereas the Conservative government received $114 million this year for early childhood development and will receive $844 million from the federal government

over the next five years for the same;

"Whereas Ontario is the only province which didn't spend a cent of this year's federal money on regulated child care;

"Whereas other provinces are implementing innovative, affordable and accessible child care programs such as Quebec's $5-a-day child care program; and

"Whereas the need for affordable, accessible, regulated child care and family resources continues to grow in Ontario,

"Therefore,

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"We demand the Conservative government guarantee the current child care and family resource budget is secure and will not be cut under this government's

mandate; we demand future federal Early Years funding be invested in an expansion of affordable regulated child care."

I agree with these petitioners. I have affixed my signature to this petition.

CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

Ms Marilyn Mushinski (Scarborough Centre): I have a petition addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario that reads as follows:

"Whereas the Criminal Code of Canada considers animal cruelty to be a property offence; and

"Whereas those who commit crimes against animals currently face light sentences upon conviction; and

"Whereas those who operate puppy mills should, upon conviction, face sentences that are appropriate for the torture and inhumane treatment they have inflicted

on puppies under their so-called care;

"Therefore, we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the Ontario provincial government petition the federal government to move forward with amendments to the cruelty of animal provisions in the Criminal

Code as soon as possible."

I'm pleased to affix my signature to this petition.

AUDIOLOGY SERVICES

Mr Ted McMeekin (Ancaster-Dundas-Flamborough-Aldershot): This is the last cluster of a thousand names that I intend to present on the

audiology petition. I present them today on behalf of the following communities: Nepean, Orléans, Ottawa, Gloucester, Waterdown, Burlington, Windsor, Leamington, Kingsville, Belle River,

Essex, Staples, Stoney Point, Osgoode, Grand Valley, Bolton, Coldwater, Bowmanville --

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): Order. It's not necessary to read all the petitioners or places.

Mr McMeekin: They're all listed here.

The Acting Speaker: Well, you don't need to do that. Just the wording of the petition, please.

Mr McMeekin: I was told by the other Speaker that I should do that, but I'll take your word for it, Mr Speaker.

The petition reads as follows:

"Whereas services delisted by the Harris government now exceed $100 million in total;

"Whereas Ontarians depend on audiologists for the provision of qualified hearing assessments and hearing aid prescriptions;

"Whereas the new Harris government policy will virtually eliminate access to publicly funded audiology assessments across vast regions of Ontario;

"Whereas this new Harris government policy makes it virtually impossible to implement services in underserviced areas of Ontario;

"Whereas this policy will lengthen waiting lists for patients and therefore have a detrimental effect on the health of these Ontarians;

"Therefore,

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, petition the Ontario Legislature to demand the Mike Harris government move immediately to permanently fund

audiologists directly for the provision of audiology services."

These petitions in total represent 257 communities and in excess of 12,000 names.

ADOPTION DISCLOSURE

Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): I have yet more thousands of signatures from people across Ontario supporting adoption disclosure

reform. This petition reads:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas in Ontario, adopted adults are denied a right available to all non-adoptees, that is, the unrestricted right to identifying information concerning

their family of origin;

"Whereas Canada has ratified standards of civil and human rights in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the UN Declaration of Human Rights and the UN

Convention on the Rights of the Child;

"Whereas these rights are denied to persons affected by the secrecy provisions in the adoption sections of the Child and Family Services Act and other acts of

the province of Ontario;

"Whereas research in other jurisdictions has demonstrated that disclosure does not cause harm, that access to such information is beneficial to adult adoptees,

adoptive parents and birth parents, and that birth parents rarely requested or were promised anonymity;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislature of Ontario to enact revision of the Child and Family Services Act and other acts to permit adult adoptees

unrestricted access to full personal identifying birth information; permit birth parents, grandparents and siblings access to the adopted person's amended birth certificate when the adopted person

reaches age 18; permit adoptive parents unrestricted access to identifying birth information of their minor children; allow adopted persons and birth relatives to file a no-contact veto restricting

contact by the searching party; and replace mandatory reunion counselling with optional counselling."

I will affix my signature to this petition because I fully support it.

CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

Mr Gerry Martiniuk (Cambridge): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas the Criminal Code of Canada considers animal cruelty to be a property offence; and

"Whereas those who commit crimes against animals currently face light sentences upon conviction; and

"Whereas those who operate puppy mills should, upon conviction, face sentences that are appropriate for the torture and inhumane treatment they have inflicted

on puppies under their so-called care;

"Therefore, we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the Ontario provincial government petition the federal government to move forward with amendments to the cruelty of animal provisions in the Criminal

Code as soon as possible."

I affix my name thereto.

EDUCATION FUNDING

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): My petition reads:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Harris government's rigid education funding formula is forcing the potential closure of neighbourhood schools such as Consolidated, Dalewood,

Lakebreeze, Maplewood and Victoria in the city of St Catharines, and has centralized control for education spending and decision-making at Queen's Park, and will not allow communities the

flexibility to respond to local needs;

"Whereas chronic underfunding and an inflexible funding formula are strangling the system and students are suffering the consequences;

"Whereas there is evidence that larger schools do not automatically translate into cost-effectiveness;

"Whereas smaller, neighbourhood schools have lower incidences of negative social behaviour, much greater and more varied student participation in

extracurricular activities, higher attendance rates and lower dropout rates, and foster strong interpersonal relationships; and

"Whereas small neighbourhood schools in local communities, both rural and urban, serve as important meeting areas for neighbourhood organizations which help

bring individuals together and strengthen neighbourhood ties and the current funding formula does not recognize community use of these schools,

"Be it resolved that the Harris government immediately reconfigure their unyielding funding formula to restore flexibility to local school boards and their

communities which will allow neighbourhood schools in our province to remain open."

I affix my signature. I am in complete agreement.

Mr Gilles Bisson (Timmins-James Bay): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I believe we have agreement among all three parties to move a unanimous

consent motion to move the late show for Mrs Cunningham from Thursday night to this evening. I ask for unanimous consent.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): Mr Bisson has asked to move the late show scheduled for tomorrow evening with the Minister of

Training, Colleges and Universities to this evening. Is that agreed? Agreed.

ACCESS TO LEGISLATIVE BUILDING

Mr Jerry J. Ouellette (Oshawa): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: In accordance with standing orders 132, 138 and 139, I believe there may be

an issue of concern whereby the west stairway appears to be blocked and there could be a safety concern. I think the Clerk, under 132, should look into it, as well as 138 with the Sergeant at Arms.

Not only is it possibly a fire hazard, but I don't believe the hallways of the Legislature should be used as storage facilities.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): Thank you. We will see that the Clerk and the Sergeant at Arms take note of that.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

CONCURRENCE IN SUPPLY

Hon R. Gary Stewart (Minister without Portfolio): Mr Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to call orders 6 to 17 inclusive, so that they may be

moved and debated simultaneously.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): Mr Stewart has asked for unanimous consent to move government orders 6 through 17.

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker: We do not have consent.

Hon Mr Stewart: I call the sixth order.

Clerk Assistant (Ms Deborah Deller): The sixth order, concurrence in supply for the Ministry of Education.

Hon Mr Stewart: I move concurrence in supply for the Ministry of Education.

The Acting Speaker: Mr Stewart has moved concurrence in supply for the Ministry of Education.

Hon Mr Stewart: Excuse me. Sorry, Mr Speaker, I'm learning slowly.

I move concurrence in supply for the following ministries and offices --

The Acting Speaker: No. The order we have before us for debate is concurrence for the Ministry of Education. It is now time to debate

that.

Hon Mr Stewart: For the Ministry of Education.

The Acting Speaker: That's correct. The member for Northumberland.

Interjection.

The Acting Speaker: You had me slightly confused. I'm sorry. The member for Northumberland.

Mr Doug Galt (Northumberland): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

Mr David Caplan (Don Valley East): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Can you ch