THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEJ1.1BLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o' clock, Thursday, No vember 6th, 1958. Opening prayer read by Mr. Sp eaker� MR. SP EAKER: Pr esent ing Pet itions . Reading and Rec eiving Pet itio ns . Presenti ng rep ort� of St anding and Select Comnittees. N ot ice of Mot io n. Int roduct ion of Bills . Orders of the Day. HONOURABLE GURNEY EVANS (Mi nist er of Mi nes and Natu ral Re- . so�rces): Mr .

Sp eaker, before proceed ing with the Orders of the Day, I would like to draw attention to one co rrection in Hansard for Nove mber 3rd, Vo lume 1, Number 8, Page 3, on the top line there is one fi gure which reads as follows: '' indicated a yield of 9.73 cubic fee t", that fi gure should read 0.73. I t hought it was wort hwhile to make that correct ion . MR . E. GUTTORlviSON ( St . Ge orge ): Mr . Speaker, to day I would li' ke to di rect a quest ion to the Mi nist. ::r of Mi nes and Natural Resourc es ; could he indicate when my Order for Return will be availa ble . MR . EV ANS : Yes, Mr .

Speake r, I had hoped it would be ready today. I think I can pro mise the Honoura ble 1-1ember it will be ready tomorrow. HR. SPEAKEi:l: Committee of SupDly . HONOURABLE DUFF ROBLIN (Premier ): Mr. Spea ker, I would beg to move, seco nded by the Honourable the Mi nister of Agr icult ure, that Mr •• Speak e r do now leave the cha ir and the House reso lve it­ self' in t o a Committee to cons ider the· supply to be granted to Her Ma jesty . Mr. Speaker read the moti on and af ter a vo ice vote decla red the motion carr ied. MR . SP EAK ER : I would ask the Honour able Member for St. Ma tthews to take the cha ir.

MR. CHAIRMAN : Co ncerning ad jour ned debates ' on resolution 3, Capital Sup1-:>ly . HONOURABLE ERRICK \'JILLIS, Q. C. (Acting :tvlinister of Pu bl ic \\f orks ) : .M r. Cha irman , I should like to give so me att ent ion to th e que st ions which were asked just bef ore dinner, par t icula rly the que st ion of complet ion of the project s. It is true that a nwn�9r of the111 l

�R. WILLIS ( Continu �

d) ap;:::>ear in this esti:nate which ap:Jeared previously in the previous estimate. They were not completed and therefore they appear again. The money v1hich was appropriated for these items was transferred to other items of which I have the list with me, and spent on those and that 1 s why in some cases you q;et a repeat in regards to them. And that'� as I say, is why they are appearing both one and the other. But they were not completed and this is for completion and the amounts which were appropriated for this purpose \·vere trans­ ferred to other roads of v1hich I have a list.

I would be glad to give it to Committee if they would like to have it. And then again, in regard to Government equipment, having been away from the department for awhile, I didn't know all the answers but all the equipment which the Government has, appears in the annual report which each Member probably has with all the details in regard to it. This is the statemen t from the Chief , Eng ineer in regard to the equipment - 11After \vorld War II, the Province had number one priority in the allocation of road machin­ ery, several pieces of grading equipment -- mainly crawlers and scrapers were purchased.

As equipment became available to con­ tractors they started buying a lot of rubber-type equipment in much larger sizes than the crawler -type models that we had. The pric e was reduced below what the department would carry out the work. 11 This is the important

part I would like to emphasize - 11L�§lther than replace our grading e::::J.uipment for modern equipment, we tr aded crawlers and scrapers for maintenan·ce and snow removal equipment, draglines and loading equipment, cabooses, water -t anks were set up as heavy maintenance crews to accompany our gravel crushers, mobile asphalt planks for patching and asphalt road mix works •11 The value of the equipment is .�J, 30 0,0 00 .0 0 as shown in the 1956 - 157 annual report al-JLg v1ith the types and quantities of each type as shown in the department 1 s annual report for 1956 and 1957.

In other words, the department has now practically no dirt moving equipment. It was traded in on this equipment which has been indicated and they have none now, and that was apparently a change in policy. In regard to the perirneter route HR. D. L. CAMPBELL . ( Leader of the Opposition ) : }.tJ.r. Chairman, if I may interrupt rny honourable friend right there, I think it is mentioned in the report though that they have some other equipment such as even surface laying. MR.

WILLIS: I understand very little of that, although they have, of course, a vast quantity of maintenance equipment which is all listed here and in the annual report. But you won't find there, and they tell me there is practically no dirt moving equipment which is left. Therefore, at the moment they are not able to build the ordinary type of road. Nor, of course, do they have any equipment in regard to concrete and as far as asphalt is concerned, their equipment is for patching. MR. CAr1PBELL: •••• Now, 1'1r. Chairman, that's not all, I think, that they have of asphalt equipment. 2

:tviR. WILLIS : No, they left this here. It 1 s a very long list . I would be very· gl ad to turn it over to you and have you look at it but it 's in the annual repor t . In rega rd to the perimeter route - Waverley to Oak Bluf f - when these es t imates were prep ared it was thought that we would have to stop concrete work prior to No vember, but due to fav ourable weather it ap pears the concre:te may be fi nished . But it is alrno's t CE;Jrta in that the shoulders will not be completed this season. :MR. CA:tvl.PBELL: What one was that ? :tviR. 'i'/ILLIS: That's Waverley to Oak Bluff on the perimeter route .

Then on the Trans-Ca nada - Se ine River we had qu est ions in regard to that. This item is in the current year 's est imates that delays were incurred pend ing fi nal negot ions with the C.N .R. with respect to the Symingt on yards. However, grad ing is now being do ne in the vicinity of th e Seine Rive r, the Seine Rive r br idge is tc{ be built this winter. Consult ant s are designing the C .N .R. overp ass, depend ing upon them, the contract will be let for its construction . MR . CAM PBELL : Is it in this year' s appropr iat ion? MR. vVILLIS: Yes, it 1 s in there.

Quest ion fr om the Member fro m :tvlinnedo sa as to the Oak River bridge, P.R .H . No . 24. The actua l const ruct ion of th is double- barrelled culvert which is the same thing as a bridge is prov ided for in the 1958-159 est linate s. It will be built this winter under our winter works progr an1. It will be necessar y to reconstruct the appr oaches one qua rter of a mile on each side of th e new structure with a high fi ll over the culvert . This cannot be graded and gravelled until the frost is out of the ground which will be in the fi scal year 1959-1960.

Question fro m the lionourable Member for Lac du Bon net, re P.T . H. No . 4 east of Vi ctoria Beach - seal coat ing. The actu al mile age according to the highway map is 47 miles. The mileage shown in the es timate is fro m Beaus e jour into the par king lot at Vi ctor ia Beach plus the mileage from Vi ctoria Bea ch corner int o Grand Bea ch. To av oid increa sing the deta ils on this list, thes e two items were consoli dated but it must be well known that the por t ion fro m Beause jour to Stea d Corner was paved this year.

The por t ion fro m Grand Beach corner was not in this year 's prog ram, but in order to have a cont inuous pavement into both of these im­ portan t beaches I author ized the pav ing of the road into Vi ctori a Beach� The nature of the work is seal coat ing, which I am sure the Honourable Me mbers know that seal coa t ing is an appl icat ion of asphalt oi l with th e sand cover to seal up any shrinkage cracks that inevitably oc cur af ter lay ing hot mix bitum inous base. The road to Grand Beach was la id abo ut four years ag o.

It will be given a new seal coat at the same t liue as the ot her po rt ions of the highway are being done . Member fo r Ethel bert asked in regard to P.T .H. warren to Resto n - complet ion of th e bituminous mat. is under contract to the Nelso n Ri ver Cons truct ion 3 No . 4 - Fo x­ This wor k C om:pany. The

MR. WILLIS ( Cont inued) item on the est imat e shows the identical mileage of the co nt ract and is shown as complet ion of bituminous mass. Te rms of the con­ tract pro v ide that the black top shall not be la id unt il aft er October 1 5th without the appr oval of the eng ineer. MRo M.N � HRYHORCZUK , Q. C. ( Ethelbert Plains): Could the Ho nourable Mi nister tel l me how much of the 24 - - 21 miles has been co mpleted - mat la id? MR. WILLIS: This says that due to - they are st ill lay ing now the fi rst lift of the mat.

It is ••••••• lo nger this fa ll , the balance of the work will have to be done next sp ring. All ow­ ance of the balance of the allo cated money for this job which will not be reco rded this fi sc al year was transf erred to pay for the pav ement from Gran d Be ach co rner int o Vi ct oria Beach , the money be ing as ked for in this vot e is for the complet ion of next year 's pav ing, shoulders and the seal coa t which may be appl ied early next fall • MR . HRYHORCZUK: Hr. Chairman, I as ked another quest ion. I guess the Ho nourable the Mi nister overlook ed it - the one on access roads. MR.

HILL IS: Yes ••• MR . HRYHORCZUK: That 's what I pr efer to call them. lv�R. ·wiLL IS: The quest ion in regard to access roads , that is now our poli cy , to build fro m the highways into various to wns along the route and there is , as one would expect , a var iation in it, the type of road which was built is what is adequat e for that si tuat ion depend ing on the si ze of the to wn, to a degree up on the distan ce offth e highway. The access roads are normally a 30 foo t top and depe nding upon the road from which it came, they vary , normally if it is fro m black top, it is blac k topp ed.

If it is fro m the ord inary highway , a gravel highway , it becomes that as well. There is no defi ni te decisi on as to the exact mileage which will be included, depen ds up on the local si tuat ion and the amount of traff ic which - ar ound three miles which has been the furt hest that we have ever appr oved. MR. HRYHO�CZUK: Mr. Chairman, foll owing that up , before I name the roads I have in mind , lv!r.

Chairman, I would like to as k the Honourable the .1:-Hn ist er one quest ion. ·He tol d us this af ter­ noon that this was a new prog ram and it is to so me extent , but I fi nd out that he actually had two new progr ams; one which app ears in the list that he handed to all Members in the Ho us e and the other that app ears in the newsp ap ers. And I have here , Hr. Chair­ man, a copy of the lat est Winn ipeg Tr ibune, and I fi nd that the prog ram listed in the Tribune does not corresp ond with the pro ­ gran that is shown on the list that was handed ar ound to the lvlem­ bers. 4

MR. WILLIS: There is one extra it em, I explained that this af ternoon. I will do it again if you like. MR. HRYHORCZUK: planat i on. I didn 't hear the Honourable Min ist er's ex- MR . WILLIS: Oh, yes l MR . HRYHORCZUK: I did hear the Honourable 1'-'linis ter of l'-1unicipal Af fai rs get up and thank the First Mi nister for having this pi ece of road put in which was added af ter this pr ogram was distributed --- the Provincial Secreta ry, :t 'm so rry --- the Ho nourable Prov incial Secretary this after noon got up and thanked the First Mi nister for that additi on. A ME MBER : Ho w true. MR .

HRYHORCZUK: And it 's in con nection with that addition, I would like to know where that comes int o the prog ram. That ad­ dition is not a part of our highway trunk syst em. It is not on the highway. Is it not the Ho nourable Mi nister 's int ention to declare that a highway? No . 2 quest ion : He mentioned that these access. roads wo uld be about three miles lo ng. In the co nstit uency of the Ho nourable Minist er of Education, I see a road on the seco nd last page of this program - Sift on - fi ve miles - Sifton to P. T. H. No . 2. That is not a highway.

Will the Honour aqle Mi nist er tell us whether he int ends to declare that fi ve miles a prov incia l trunk highway. MR. WILLIS: In regard to the road through No . 2 to Not re Dame de Lourdes, as I have said to day that has been on the pro­ gram. If the Member for Ethelbert doubts that , he co uld speak to the Deputy Miilis ter, but in the typing it was not includ ed. It was pass ed.

Everything \vas ap proved in regard to th,e ro ad of fic­ ially by the engineering department, also by, the Cabinet, anci then we fo und out that due to a typing error, I do n't know whose it was but one gi rl typed it - it was omitt ed. It 's always been on the progr am - it wasn 't a new idea and it 's there and it 's go ing to be approved by the Hou se, I hope, and it has the fu ll notice of the Hous e as well. It will be a lOO% road and it will be the commencement of a highv.ray which will go across there. Until it is built it will not be de clared a highway.

We do not ap pr ove of the po licy of declaring highways and building them af te rwards because if you do so then they app ear on the road map and peop le think they 'v e got a high�Jay and when they get there, they go int o the mud,w hich is direct ly contrary to our po licy.

Conseque ntly, whil e you have highway const ruction you don 't have it list ed as· a trunk highway because in the past that has been done and I'v e al­ ways been op po sed to it and I' m still op posed to it •• As far as the road through Sift on is co ncerned, it will be built to highway stan dards lOO% by the Gove rnn1ent, and after it has been' built it will be declared a trunk highway. It is just as simple as that . MR . vJ .C. MI LLER ( Rhineland ): In view of the expla nati on given 5

MR. MILLER (Continued) by the Minister that one item w�s not on our list, I would like to ask him if possibly trunk highway No. 32 bituminous mat might also be in that category and I wonder if he wants to surprise me at some later date •• • MR. WILLIS: I think maybe a double surprise would be too much. MR. R.W. BEND (Rockwood-Iber ville): Mr. Chairman, I haven't taken any

part in this most interesting debate thus far. The main reason that prompts me now is that very early on yesterda y, I asked three quest ions and one of those questions was - was thi_s program an entirely new program or was there anything on it that had been on the program that had been announced at the last Session. Now I know the Minister quite well and I know that when he answered­ with a straight "No'', that he really believed that that was the situation at that time and I am not being critical of that.

But then, Iv'Ir. ·Chairman, when the same question was asked again today and when a specific instance was pointed out, then the Minister was quite frank in saying,· "Well, it 1 s possible that there is11• And if anyone is wondering why this debate is going on, you have all kinds of examples why, because you just cannot seem to get the clear picture.

Now then, I want to make it clear right at the outset that we are not arguing about the program as such, neither are we offerring opposition on this side, to the Govern­ ment policy, but I am certain if any of us on this side have a responsibility it is one of finding out exactly what this program is and we have now been sitting for three sessions in here and we haven't been able to find out. Now then first of all, of course I admit that I wasn't at all surprised to find that the newspapers had the infonMtion before us, because that is not new.

I know that when I wanted to find out anything about the Gas Commission I could find it out much quicker in the paper than I was able to find out through any means of conununicat ion to us. And then, of course, when I was interested in the interim report on education, again I found that the quickest way to do that was to look in the papers.

And so it vJas no surprise to me tha,t in order to find out what the road program was, I looked in the papers and again it was no surprise to me, today, that when the Provincial Secre tary pointed out that all we needed to do was look in the papers, we would find the program there again. Now, I have one simple request of the Minister in this connection and it has nothing to do with asking for a new road, but could I get on the same mailing list as the Winnipeg Tribune? Now then, last night as the debate wore on some of the Members on that side got a little impatient and I can understand that.

It 1 s awkward to sit back and not take

part in a debate and it gets very aggravating to see us getting up all the time. I know. But I'm going to tell the Committee this, l·Ir. Chairman, any time that this House is faced with a program that entails the spending of $JJ,000,000.001s of dollars and nobody on this side asks questions, then as far as I'm concerned, whoever happens to be there certainly are not carrying out their responsibility. And what is this delay? 6

H .. i.. BEN D ' (Cant inued ) This was spe c ifica lly mentioned by the Honourab le the Mi nist er of Health and Welf ar e last night - the del ay, of co urse it 's qu ite a delay . I mean it 's a day so far , or a half a day for the spending of $33,0 00,000. 00. And so I have shown that if we go so fa r as to tr y to as k so me quest ions and to try to get so me infor mation and to try to make perfe ctly clear what this program really is, then of course we 'r e caus ing a del ay .

Now let 's take and I know that the Honourable Mi nist er knows this, that we have been goo d fr iends all this time and I do n't in­ tend this spe ech to change it., but let 's just go over what occurred here yester day . The fi rst spee ch that the Honour able the Mi nist er made was announcing a brand new prog ram, a new progra m of highway const ruction, a new type of highway co nstruct ion. Th is was go ing to be differen t . Now you loo k over the miles that are here, and I haven 't to talled them up, but what is the n ew type of constr uct ion.

Well I know he po inted ou.t what a great road No . 75 was, nobody has argued that po int; I know that he po inted out that in certai n areas certa in heavier co nstr uct ion had to be us ed, but in this whole progra m,' what is the. evidence of it? There 's no change in what has been· . do ne bef ore . There are some 30 miles of concret e in ce rtain areas where prev ious pol ic ies would have ' put concrete.

Now in the sec ond spe ech, when the Honou rable Mi nist er spo ke, he admitted qu ite frank ly, and I give him credit for this, that this was nothing more or less than an extens ion, in many cas es, because he sa id, and I think this was go od, that we fo und that we had a go od year for building and although we had completed the amount that was set out in the ori g inal est imat es, we co ntinued on .

But that was noth ing new, that was simply co ntinuing on what had already been plan ned fo r and so when you look at this new program, and as fa r as I am co ncerned I give cred it where cred it is due - we do need highways and certa inly nobody else, I' m sure, is goi ng to get up and argue in this House aga inst them, but what we 'v e been trying to do all through this period is to sift out and fi nd out what this plan really means . Now wouldn 't we have been gu ilty, Mr.

Chairman, of negl igence of duty if we had st op ped the discus ­ si ons yeste rday at the po int at which the Mi nister sa id 11Th is is a brand new pr ogram, there is not hing on it tha t was on the prev ious one. " Now that was the odds, and we had gone and sa id the progra m is a co mpletely new program. When, Mr . Chairman, such was not the case and this quest ioning has brought that po int out . Now then, we co me to this, too .

Quest ions have been asked and the Mi nist er has sa id well, if you go to the Deputy Minist er, or if you go to the Chief Eng ineer or if you run aro und all over the building, you 'l l fi nd so mebody who will give you the info rma­ ti on. Now, Mr. Chairman, we haven 't got that kind of time.

Surely this is the pla ce where we get the infor mat ion and I slinply, and I'm certa inly making a deduct ion here I'l l admit, but I think on fa irly so und grou nd - if the argument in answe r to our qu estion had been good , had been a very goo d one that would have given good marks, well, surely we would have had the answer. But when you fi nd you 'r e unable to get this answer, when you fi nd that the an­ swer is differen t, t·hen of co urs e, what can you do? Yo u can only 7

M�. BEND ( Continued) remain as we are over here, confused to find out exactly what this program is. The Honourable Member from B rokenhead asked two quest ions last night, and I understand he is going to get his answers by letter. Well, that's good, but they were of interest to more than the Honourable J.l'lember. We had a simple straight forward question here, a simple question, four miles of road that the Honourable Member from Lac du Bonnet asked, he was accused of gi ving the same speech twice, three times and he has yet to get his answer.

Does this four miles of road or does it not parallel an existing high­ way? Now surely that's a s�nple question and surely the Honourab le Member from Lac du Bonnet shouldn 1 t have to answer it three times and then -- ask it three times and th.en not get the answer. He Is got me furious now tdo, because I'd like to know if this four miles of road parallels a highway or not.

And so I'm asking that ques­ tion and I'm sure the Minister will be able to tell me and I1m sure he'll be able to tell me why, because I can remember discus­ sing with the Honourable Minister on another occasion a request for a road and the answer was 11how can we give you that road when yo u're so close to another highway, and the answer is no." So I'm interested about this four mile piece of road. I would like to get the answer, if it exists - why it exists. Now then, there· are one or two other points that I might as well make and I don't intend to make another speech on this.

But I want to make it perfectly clear that so far we have been unable to determine how new this program is. Now then, the next question that I would like to bring up is respect to the federal sharing of roads. Now the Honourable the Minister spoke perfectly true when he said he had re sol ut ion here requesting this, that that particular time the Government was in the centre of an extensive building program jointly with the Federal with respect to the Trans-Canada.

There is one point, and I do say this most kindly, in fact, I'm not intending to be any­ thing else but kind here, because really I haven't been able to figure out yet whether this is an extension of the old, half old, whc.,le old, half new or where the division comes - but I remember in one of the speeches given by the Honourable the Minister that I was impressed with this - he said - I believe the t irne is come - and this is not quoting him directly, when we should try in this Province to get on somewhat the same basis as the States of the Union are, and I believe at that time that he used as an example the State of l,Unnesota and their program is something on the basis of so many dollars of federal help from Washington on the basis of miles of accepted trunk highway and population.

Now then, I simply ask if he still feels that that is a good idea because, I'll be quite frank, I thought it was, at the time he menti oned it. Now I knovJ" the Honourable 1v1inister has said, well vv'e think that as a result of our pressuring Ottawa that we've got this road to the north. VJell, if my memory serves me correctly that road came out as a special project that Ottawa would be willing to share in and really does not fall at all under the subject material that was passed here u�animously in the House requesting that the Federal share on a fifty-fifty basis with further roads. And, I $

�r . Ben d ( Cont in ued ) wou ld be fur ther inte rested to know if the mini ster st ill thin ks there would be some cha nce of co nvinc ing OttA wa nor , or at some fut ure date , of an over -a ll basis of fi na ncial help similar to th e St ates, th at he men t ioned at the ti me . No"''' Mr . Cha irman, I fi nish up then \·.Tith on ly , with two re­ qu ests , one: to be put on the same ma il inc:; list as the Win nip eg Trib une an d Uo . 2: to fi nd out if this fo ur mil es of road does really parallel ano ther highway . MR . S .

JUBA ( Logan): Wou ld the honoura ble memb er fro m Rock­ wood-Iberv il le perm it a que st ion? He had made some mention re­ garding the report of th e Royal Commi ssion . Vfas it your inten­ ti on to cast a refle ction on th e mem bers of th e Royal Commiss ion? ltlR. BEND: l'-'lr. Chairman , how far can you get away fro m an y possible log ical deduct ion? I simply read in the Trib une an d · ver y glad to read it , of the report of the int erim co mmis sion. I did not say how it cot there . I simply th ought th at it would be good if I could get on th at ma ili ng list .

I casted no refle ct­ ion on an yon e . JvlR. JUBA: It was your in ten tio n_ . JvU"\.. Bt.ND: Wha t did you say? MR . JUBA: I see. You don' t den y that it wa s your int en ti on to cast a reflect ion on the mem bers of the ER . BEND: Certa in ly I den y it . !viR. JUBA: Wel l, th at 1 s all I \'rant ed to get straig ht. hR . B.t:ND: ',Jell, alr ight . MR. ROBLIN: Mr . Cha irman, I am in terest ed in th e "Tr ibune" . ci rc ulation . I am just tr ying to ma ke up , tr ying to remember whether it 's, let me see, :;�2.50 a month .

What ev er, l1m sure I can put my hono ura ble fr ien d on the "Tr ibune" ci r culation list wit hout mu ch tro ubl e an d if he reall y is serious 1n that respect , I will be gl ad to do so. 1'1R. BEND: You mi su n derstoo d me . I wanted to be on the ma ilin g list for in fo rmat ion . MR. ROBLI N: Yes, well, ac cor ding to my hono urabl e frien d , he 's .sati sfied with what he read s in th e "Tr ibunen so I'l l put him on that ma il in g list . I just want ed to ma ke this observ ation, Lr . Cha irman , an d I mu st co ngr atu late the honour able mem ber. He �aised th e point in an amus ing way .

I got a ch uck l e out of it , an d it's a r>:ood littl e dig, an d I don 't hold it against him . But I mu st conf ess th at I'm jus t as an no yed as he is that both th ose

part icular articles appeared in the Winnipeg Tribune . I mu st co ngr at ul ate somebody on the ir sta ff bec ause they cer- 9

hr . Robl in (C on t inued) tain ly sc ooped us comp let el y . Be :fore the report was on my de sk, they knew what was in it. How I don't want th e honoura ble mem ber :from Loga n to ta ke any o:f:fense at this but in th e case o:f th e gas issue, :for ex­ ampl e, we did tr y an d :find out what happened an d I mu st co nfe ss that we weren 't succ essf ul ; all we kn ew is th at the on ly copies we had were all wrapped up in. a vault ,.,hen th e new s appeared in the paper and they hnd only been seen by my self and one other .

Now, th at 's no explan at ion , - no excus e, - it 's one or th ose th ings, I rath er :fancy th at an en erget icreporter vr ho talked to th e people int erested , not on the Commi ssion it self , I don't mean th at, but oth er :folks th at had an in terest in th e ga s issue or in th e educ at ion issue, co uld probably come prett y darn clo se to the ma rk if th ey were speculat ing ••• (in terjec t ion ) Pardon? Yes, some o:f it in the educat ion report was ver batim, but with this in te resti ng peculia rity thnt it was not ve rbati m ·o:f the :final draft whic h \'ll'as present ed to the govern ment .

Th ere was a slig ht dift"e ren ce, which we not iced , which apparen tl y was in a prev ious drc,:ft. Novr, again , I 'm not ma king any comment s about how th at happened becaus e I simply don 1 t know . The co rrunission ers in both ca ses gave me the ir ns su rance th at it was done certa inly wit hout their kn owl edge and I accep t thei r word :for it co mpletel y an d un reserve dly .

I can say to th e honou rable member th at un­ :fortanel y I ca n't explain what happened ; all I know is th at no­ body in the govern ment, as :far as I have been nb le to ascert a in , cer tain ly nobod y amo ng the mini ste rs, disclosed an y in for mation in th at way . And I'm assur ed that none o:f the Royal Commi ssion ers did .

But I th in k th at we have to appreci ated the :fact th at an importan t report li ke that probabl y goes th rough several draft s, - there 's a good many people in on it, and with no ma lic ious in­ te nt , cer ta in :facts about the report can ce rta inl y beco me publ ic know led ge. I su ppos.e the com miss ioner s disc uss what th ey' re ta lk ing about with some 'people who might be in teres ted in th e a:f:fair an d to as certain th eir opinion or get th eir view s ; and in all inno cence th at sort o:f thin g mi ght happen .

But I 1m reall y not in tereste d in con du ct ing a post- mo rtem into th e a:f:fair . I can 't su pply the hono urable memb er with th e answ er. I can on ly give him my assura nce th at, to th e best o:f my kn owl edge, the leak did not co me :from eit her the Royal Commi­ ssioners or :from the goverr u;1ent . NO\v, I c an't expl ain it . I apolog iz e to th e Hous e :for it becau se it certai nly shouldn't happen an d I re gret it, an d I was a li ttle bit annoy ed when it did happen , but th ere it is. Tha t's th e best I can do :for my honourable :frien d . HR. BEND : .Mr .

Cha irman, th at 1 s sa ti s:fact ory to me . l'·1R. JUBA : Honourabl e, the First 1-l inist er, on ly rec ent ly we read in th e ne\ ·lSpaper where one of th e mem bers o:f th e Royal Conmlission , th at is th e Greater l.fin nipeg In ve st igat ing Commis sion, had voic ed his opinion on a certai n ma tter vrhich was un der dis­ cu ssion by th e Commi ssion. I �rrond ered i:f it is not in our power in this legis lature to sort o:f la y dO\m some sort o:f a poli cy as :far as mem bers o:f an y Commi ssion is co nc ern ed. And I'm �e:ferring 10

Lr . Ju ba (C ont in u ed ) to the on e on ama l gama ti on which was recen tl y made where one member stu dyin g the problem has co me out publ icl y an d has stated his vie ws of the ma tte r .

In my opinion, I thin k it 's vrrong CJ nd possibly the members of this House could do somethin g about it� And as far as th e Royal Gas Commis sion is concer ne d, I could assu re you that the members of the Commi ssion were extremely ca ut ious not to speak to an yon e in order to vo ice an opinion one way or anot her . vie felt that we did not want to preju dge th e case an d we waited unt il such ti me as we got all th e :facts to­ geth er . And when we got th e facts to geth er, we com pil ed it int o a for mal report which was deli ver e d to the gov ernment . MR. R. T EILLET (S t . Bonif ace) : Mr .

Cha irman, I fin d my self in a posit ion th at I mu st co me to the defence of the lvlayor of my ci ty . And I admired that car toon in the Free Press th at I th ink was qu ite apt . MR. ROBLIN : lvlr. Cha irman, I reall y th in k probabl y we shou ldn 't follo w th is too fa r. Let's get back to the issue th at is be fore us . MR. TEI LLET: I do want to sp eak of leaks , and my an swer was this . There was no diff ic ulty in that instan ce ,-- no tro ubl e at all in fi nding out who had talked to the Press . He had no hesitat ion in givin g th em his name. He gave the st at ement qu ite cle arly .

There was no que sti on of leaks or an ythin G else . His Wor ship stood up in front of the en ti re pub lic with th at que stion so that I do th ink that we should go easy on ref lecti ons of this kind . lviR. BEND : I 'm on ly goin g to finish this once and for a 11 . I simply made a simpl e reque st and here this gets int o people having to defen d somebody else and all this . Tha t was not my in ­ tention, Mr. Chairm an .

I made a simple reque st th at I would li k,.e to be where I could get this infor mat ion an d I .cs su re you that if I had been tr ying to hlame an ybody, -- I would have us ed an en ti rel y differe nt to ne of voi ce . lv:.R. JU BA: The honour able member has no int en tion s of em­ barra ssing an yone ? HR. BEND : Mr . Chairm an , I ,,,ant to mRke it perfr: �t ly clea r th at I had no int ent ions of cast ing refle ct ions on anybod y . MR . F.L. JO BIN · (F li n Flon) : Mr .

Chairman , the Min iste r of Pu blic Works a while ago , vol unt eered to su pply th e Comrnittee a li st of trans f erred appropriati ons . Could we have tha t pl ease? �1R. G. MOLGAT (S te . Rose): lvir. Cha irman , before we leave this ma tter of lea ks , due to the fa ct tha t the First Min ister is prepared to give us some in for mati on in this regard , I wonder if you CO,l,l.�,d also explain to the Committee how the con ver sat ion be­ twe en � • • 'fOm Kent , th e Edito r of' the Free Press, and the Jv:inis­ ter of' r�q].y.c ation fell into th e hands of' th e other ver y g9od new �:- 11

Mr . Mo lg a t ( con t in ued ) pape r in Win nip eg, the Tr ibune , as report ed. MR . ROBLIN: I don't want to fo llow this too fa r afield . I can on ly say th is, Mr . Chairm an , because I know of that ma tter and I reall y am surp rised th at my honou rable fr ien d is so in­ discreet as to ment ion it for a nu mber of reasons , beca us e �ha t ma tter was thorou ghly in vest igated and the sour ce of th e inf orma­ ti on was discovered . And T th ink th at if you ask Mr .

To m Kent , I thin k he will be able to tell , and I thin k will also be able to tell you that he is perfe c tly sat isfied with th e expl anat ion tha t was provided to him . I certa in ly have no in te nt ion of men­ ti oning name s. hR . 1-iOLGAT : I wonde red in vie w of the fact that this was again in the papers unkno'-' m to us . ,t-,R. \'JI: LLIS: Hr . Cha irman, I thin k the honou rabl e memb er for Rock wood · did get hims elf in tr oubl e by asking all th ese que st­ ions . However , as he asked them with a smile on his fa ce , vrhy, that helps a good deal .

In reg ard to th e program , I my self dis covered on ly at dinner time th at all of it wasn 't en ti rel y ne w. Only about 98% is new so that I'm sorry th at tha t is so . And th e reasons for it are obvious that some of the work which \va s prev iousl y projected was not able to be finish ed, and as a con sequen ce , th ey tr ansferred the mo nie s to the se other roads an d con t inue d th em which were not on th e prev ious program. And that 's the way it all oc cur red . I'm sorry that I did say , it 's qu ite tr ue , th at the program was new because I was so inf orme d.

I'm "Joh nny come latel y" to an old job; I did come here th e first of July but the re ha s been qu ite a bit to do in the meant ime, so I hav en 't got eve rything co mpletel y und er co ntr ol . The respons ibil ity , of cou rse , on the Opposit ion , is to cri tici ze . Uh en I was the re I did . And I th ink you ge t a better govern ment by having such cri ticis ms so we thin k th at 's th e pro­ per th in g to do . The hon oura ble memb er said they couldn 't fi nd out . I should li ke to te ll him th at in mo st , th e legis latu res in Can ada, th ey don't brin g down a cteta ile d report .

All they say is : Roads - $11 5, 000,0 00 .0 0 - an d the n later on th ey tr y to find out what th e roads are going to be. But here , we brin g down a compl ete and deta iled sta teme nt in reg ard to all of th e roads . Now, the minis ter has said that new spap er got it fi rst . We follo w here th e tr adit ion a l system which has been foll owed, I th ink , ce rta in ly in the House of Comm ons , an d certa inl y in mo st of th e leg isla tu res in Canada - th at you have your cop y - when you sta rt to read it - it 1s relea sed to the Press - not befo re .

I had several reque sts for it to be released to the Press but I al ways remember that one of your mi niste rs, on e ti me , had a great misfor tu ne . Come Fr iday, he was on the program for th at aftern oon , so he released th e program to the Press . His na me happens to be l-1r . Bell . He relea sed it on Friday and in Sa tur­ day's paper it appeared in th e ne wspaper in great detail , and it wasn 't me nt ioned in the Hous e unt il Mo nday . So th at I remem bered 12

l'ir. Vlil lis (Cont in ue

d) th at well and tri ed to avo id it - beca use when th e new spapers came to ine and said 11Can 't you give us your program so th at we can ana ly ze it or st art print ing it or som et hing? " I said, "No , I remember what his program appeared two days in the ne wspaper before it ever was in the House at all .' ' That was un derst anda ble . I don't bla me him at all beca use one can easily drop into a diffi cult y li ke th at an d he dropped �n to it .

As far as th e Winni peg Tr ibune is co ncerne d, all th is infor­ mat ion was rele ased to the Free Press , the Tr ibune and ever ybody else at th e same ti me. Now in regard to th e qu estion of a new ty pe of co ns truct ion , as I pointed out at the time , and I wi ll repeat again , in regard to the heav ier roads there will be a new ty pe of co ns truct ion . When the esti ma tes came in, I asked them to go back and make su re th at they had en ough base in it . With the resu lts that th ey went back and the esti ma tes rose, in ac cor dance with th em .

It 's en � ti rely true that some of the roads will be just the ord inary con­ str uc tion because th ey just have ordin ary tr affic • But where you have ·heavy tra ffic , this ti me you wil l have heavie r roads in 1959 than you had in 1958� I su ggest that it 's inco rrect to say th at the re is no change beca use on the numb er of roads ther e will be that chan ge, and I tru st th at it will be not icea ble as well. I 'm glad the mem ber brought up the que st ion - he said th at this was merel y an extensi on and it was not new .

Eac h year , we car ry out a program here, mo st of which is extens ion , bu t new, but new . In ot her words , if you'r e working on a road which is 200 mil es long , you may do ten or 20 mile s a year . But each time you do th at , it 's an extens ion of the program but it 's en ­ tirel y new cons truct ion . MR. BEND: lvlr. Chairm an , I kno w the hono ura ble the min ister would want to unde rst and what I mean t when I said th at , and may ­ be I wa sn 't cl ear . I meant th at it wasn 't new in the ty pe of co nstr uct ion , not a new piece of road.

Obvi ously , it 's a new co ns tr uct ion as was or igin ally cont empla ted, but I was sayin g ·it 'ltvas no thing new in the type of co nstruct ion since it was ex­ ten ding th e road alr eady bu ilt . That was what I meant by "n ew" in that con ne cti on . MR. WILLIS: Well , I thin k you and I have it st raight but I read it in th e ne wspapers and they didn 't have it st raight so I'm gl ad to drag in this disc us sion at this ti me , beca use it is an extens ion ·a nd it is new.

Vlell , I don' t pla y any fa vour it es th ere an d some ti me s I li ke what the y said about me in the Free Press better th an th e Tr ibune . And sometime s in th e Trib une better th an the Free Press . Now, I th ought it was a little unkind for the memb er to say th at they have to run al l around the build in g to get this in for� mat ion . It 's in prett y good det ail in th e sta temen t whic h is there and I think it can be glea ne d fro m that prett y we ll .

But the member got in a hurry and I didn' t have time to sit down with him and draw it out on a map , and I was afraid it m·ight become an epidemic and the re might be 25 peopl e wanting to do th at . If th at were th e cas e, I wou l dn 't be able to co me into th e House 13

Mr. Vlillis (Continued) tonight to explain these details in regard to this pro�ram. Now, as far as the road is concerned, it was in doubt, in regard to this parallel road, if we might come to tlu t. There is to be - if it's the same road and I think it is, - from Beause jour strai:sht v·mst to connect with highway No. 22, the re will be a road built there, a 'e;r::t vel road, by the ;,:sovernment, connected with 22.

When No. 4 was built through Beausejour, to a d e gree th ey seemed to think that it left them a deserted town. i had the whole Chamber of Commerce of the town in here, asking that this road be built so that when people came there fr om the East, from Kenora, they could go straight Vvest and go do wn 22 without get­ ting into the heavy traffic. They complained that they had been by-passed by the previous government; that they had built No. 4, but connected it with the Grand Beach road, without going into Beausejour at all.

And that, as a consequence, they were - tha't businessmen were finding that they were getting a bout half the business that they had before. There was still heavy traffic and we thought by building this short piece of road, we could siphon it off on to hi��hway No. 22.

Nothing has been done in regard to this but it is in the program; it is now th e intention to build that type of road in that location, whereby, they will, without too much dust, but with some, be able to go over to No. 22, without being on No. 4 highway .and clutterin':!: it up to get to 22, whic h will become, in my opinion, a very important high­ way in the Province of Manit oba. So, for v;hat 1s it worth - that is the story with regard to that road itself; it will be built. Now, in regard to federal aid, I think that W3.S the last item which was spoken to by the member from Rockwood.

I have not changed my opinion in regard to federal aid. And, since I assumed this office, ·I talked to the government at Ottawa, two or three times, in regard to it. I 'Nill be there next week. I will talk federal aid a bit more, because sometimes it takes a little convincing. But we have been able to interest them in northern roads for one reason particularly. Years ago, the Federal Government was convinced that they should do some federal aid and they built the Trans-Ganada when I was in this job before. That was helpful, but it Vlras helpful more than it apoeared at that time.

It was helpful because, in order to supervise th e building of the Trans-Canada Highway, the Federal Gov ernment had to have a large staff of engineers; and having a large staff of engineers, in regard to the Trans-Canada, they were not liable, and didn 1 t overnight, let those en,:=<ineers go elsewhere. So you have them novJ working on these nor thern roads, which for lvlanitoba, mean 15 billion dollars, split two ways.

So that we have not yet got the Federal Government to agree to the United States system, in which, I believe, in which I mov ed motions here I think, on three or four occasions, ang got endorsement s, finally. The member from Russell ':Sot in my hair a couple of times. He broke it up, but , I fina :_ly got, one night when he was away, I think, we put it through here, unanimously, in this House, and we had one seeking federal aid. · Federal aid will continue to be 3. problem in this country - and a great one - and a very useful one - and no one in this 14

Hr. vJillis (continued) Chamber should forget that that is a matter which should be taken strenuously to Ottawa and this government will take it stren­ uously to Ottawa. In the United Sta.tes, in l'iontana, through there, and Texas, particularly 1'-Iontana, which is a poor state, they h3. ven 1 t got the money to build proper roads through there, but th ey have proper roads, built by federal aid and they pay 50% of the cost.

And so it is, with us, in many of t he provinc es if not all, in Canada; that because of the revenues 1tThich .3.re obta .i.ned by the Federal Government from :;-as tax; from tax on m3.chinery; from tariffs and the rest, in my opinion, they have a duty to perform in giving us federal aid for our highways . I've believed that :for years. I shall believe it until I'm here no more. Therefore, as far as we are concerned, we agree entirely , as far as federal aid is con­ cerned, we believe that our foot is now in the door, and we're ' not going to remove it.

And if, through the C:inadian Good Roads Association, and others, we can give help and influen ce, then that will·be a great step in the right direction. It is just a little unfortunate that as far as fe deral aid is concerned, the Provinc e of Quebec will not join with the other provinces, to seek federal aid because th ey are suspicious of federal influence. They want to keep a1vay from it as muc h as possibl e. It is their traditional policy and, as a consequence, \ve are not ,getting their assistance in regard to seeking federal aid from the Federal Gover nment, either novv or ten years ago.

And, consequently, that is one deterent. But, I think that even itself, can probably be overcome, and that event ually, in this country, I would be amazed if we do not have a proper system of federal aid for highways, similar to the one in the United States. Because, in Canada, we deserve it. 1'-'I.t-:z. BEND: Ivir. Chairman, I 11 1 only be a moment. I am grate­ ful to get the information, but 'rJith respect to the dis tributing of copies, I haven't intended to ge t into that part.

However,- I would like to just point this flct out: That while it •.vas quite true that the release would be given to the papers in order that they could publish it that night. While we were dis cussing it here in the afternoon, I remember quite well, (in 149 and 150) when the honourable minister mentioned, the other day, that it had not been his custom to circulat e such a thing as this at the time, -- tha t 1 s quite true.

But towards the l:1ter years, and I knov,; at least the last three years, that at the time the minister was pre­ senting his estirrHtes -- "'rhile it is quite true that he had re­ leased those to the Press -- we were provided here wit h a c opy at the same tim e as the minister was provid ing his :J.ddress, as the honourable member from Springfield mentioned when he pointed out the type of thing we h3.d the other night, in his speech -- last night. :MI-Z. WILLIS: I made enquiries in regard to this, ."l.nd so far as I can find out, it vn.s inaugurated by Nr.

Robertson, when he was minister; for the distribution to the members at the same time as the distribution to the Pre ss. That's the first time it vas 15

lv'r. VJillis (conti nued ) done here, so I am informed, and I remember, fo r instance, th at when my good fr iend, Hr. Morton, was here, I had great dif 'riculty in getting deta ils of the ro ads and he gave them to me the next day as a special favour - a copy of the one which he had read from hi mself. Conseque ntly, the system was inaugurated by Mr. Robert­ son. There is no reason why it should n't be, in the futu.r e, -as I say,-I del ivered it ten ti mes, without having done so.

All I did was exactly the same as before and I did n 1 t rea lize that I would get these severe criticis ms for doing what has been done here, year af ter year, and for twelve years in succe ssi on, anyway. HR. GUTTORMSON : �1r. Chair man, last ni ght I di re cted a question to the honoura.ble minis ter. I asked him if he intended to ex pand the present road program to the spr ing sessi on, if and when it was held, and he replied "there wi ll be other roads built" . \Jfuat I meant was, wi ll there be any other P.T .H . hig h­ ways in the spring program ? lvlR. WILLIS: There will • .tv�.

JO BIN : Could we have that list of trans ferred road appropriat ions, please? lvJR. WILLIS : Why, sure • .tvffi. BEND : Wou ld the honoura ble, the min ister read them, Mr. Chairman? MR. WILLIS: That's what I had in mind. MR. WILLIS:. . . . . . • . . As against the apparent sav ing by not havi ng completed the other roads, addi tio nal pro je cts were aut horized and completed. Here they are: Poplar Field to Broad Valley - gradi n,s; P.T .H . No. 22 to Grand Beach Corner to Victoria Beach - paving; P. T.H. No. 31 Pe mbina Valley to P. T. H. No. 3 - gradi ng; P. T.H . No. 59M extens ion of P. T.

H. 59 to Libau - grad ing; Roblin Bouleva rd access road - gradi ng; P. T. H. No. 5 Eden South - bituminous recap mat; P. T. H. No. 8 Gi mli to Camp Ivlorton - gr ad­ ing; P. T. H. No. 34 to P. T. H. No. 3 to No. 23 - dou ble pr ime; access roads Bir ch River to P. T. H. No. 10 to Bowsman to P.T .H . No. 10 . That is the list. A member: How much money involved? .MR. WILLIS: Just under tpl, 000 ,000.00. Just under $1, 0001000.00. JviR. CANPBELL : Could we have a copy of that list, :tvlr. Chair­ man? I mean copies for all of the min ister, members. H.�. ·wiLLIS: I' 11 get them for you. Hl{.

CAI'-IPBELL : And could we also have the ones that were listed as not completed fr om which th is $1 ,000 ,000.00 arose? 1 6

IviR. WI LLIS : The repeat s, as it we re? !viR. CAHPBELL : No! No! I understand th at th is amount, $1 ,000 ,000. 00 , �rJas made avai lable because of the fact th at some oth er roads v.rere not going to be finished this year. Could vre get a list of tho se roads as .well? The ones th at we re not •••• :tvlR. WI LLIS : I don 't have it but I th ink I can certai nly get it. The fact s are th at th ey were una ble to be complete d. Those monies were used on th ese roads which I have out lined to you ; s,ome of th em aut hori ze d by your governm ent; some of th em author­ iz ed by this government .

But th ey were completed th er e and th ose monies were used in th at way, so th ere wasn 't a saving but th ere was a tr ansfer of expendi tur e from th ose to the othe rs . There­ fore, you get a repeat in th e roads, which a re on th is program, ' and on th e previous one because the y were not complet ed. MR . W.C. lv'IILLER (Rhineland) : Would you care to predict how much of th e $33 ,000 ,00 0. 00 in th e next year 's program, might be dive rt ed to other pro je cts not ment ioned in th e submission to us? MR. WI LLIS : Well, I could not estim ate th e divers ion, if any.

I would hope th at the se would be complet ed ent irel y, and that th ere wouldn't be a diversi on ; but in th e wi nt ert ime , th ere wi ll come anot her program � I hope and expect - and while the re's life, -t here 's hope . 1'-Ltz . JO BIN : lv'Ir. Chai rman , first I would ju st like to de al wi th a st ate ment th e Honourable th e Minis ter of Public Vvorks made just a few minutes ago, when he said th at we have been ab le to interest th em , (t hat t s th e Federal Gover mnent ) in nort hern roads . There has been some ta lk about $1 5,0 00 ,000.0 0 joint eo- operat ions spread over five years .

I think th at th is House should refresh it 's mind th at th is

part icu iar vent ure was starte d at th e ti me· of th e old government . This was part of Diefenbaker 1 s vision , and we co-operate d ••..• lv'IR. WI LLIS : I th ink th at 1s entir ely tr ue . Not in doubt . :MR. JOBI N: That 's fin e . But I ju st resen t th is stat ement ­ "we have been able to int erest th em in northern roadsn .

Now, it 's tr ue t,he minist er has , to some degree , answered some of th e quest ­ ions th at were raised here yest erday and to da y, - some remain un­ answ ered , - and I don't want to be accused of making a speech th e second ti me , although I, perhaps, wi ll; but it wi ll be ve ry br ief. But , yest erda y, in th e House , I said th at if it \vas wi thin my rig ht s as a member of th is legisla tu re, a member of this commit te e, that I would like to see some proof of th e engin eer ing and of th e planning done on th e road bet ween Mafe king and The Pas. I-'iR. WILLIS : Here it is right here . M.�.tz.

JOBIN : vve were offe red by th e minist er , in a form of 17

Mr . Jobi n (conti nued) je st, and now by the member fr om Morris surely in anot her fo rm of jest, that our proof is a member of this legislatu re. With all due respects to the member from Swan Ri v er, who knows the cou ntry and knows the roads - certa inly neither the minis ter nor the member from Morris says that that is my proof. The minis ter did say HON. JOHN CARROLL (Minis ter of Pu blic Uti litie s) : I under ­ stand, and this was only a few months ago, that you people were going to have that road completed by 1960 .

How could you poss i­ bly do it if you did n't complete the grad ing and gravel ling in one year ? IvlR. JOB IN: O. K. As soon as I fi nish wit h this. The minis ­ ter did say, though, that they pre sented the f-3.cts and figures ' to me at my desk and I said "go ahead ". I think those were , roughly, his words. And so, yes terday, I said that if it's wit hin my rights, I'd like to see some of that planning and some of that engine er ing. Because, personal ly, I don't think it has been done.

In regard to the ques tio n of the Minis ter of Pu blic Ut ilit­ ies, it is true that the the n-Pre mie r of the Prov ince of l'-1anito ba, in The Pas and, I think, in Flin Flan, sa id that No. 10 would be black-topped in 19 60 . When he made the statement, I shuddered, because I felt sure th at he \!lras making a mis take. Because, and as pr oof of that, if we take the tape of the progra mming, the planning of the former Min ister of Publ ic Vlorks, he told us, (and you can go back to it fo r proof) th3.t No. 10 would be hard- top ped by 1961 .

And you know, as well as I kn ow, that you can't black­ top it un til the completio n in 1961 . The Premier made a mistake. I never followed that up . You never hea rd me say that we would have black-top by 19 60 . In the speech that he made, he made a mis take. Nobody cnecked him there and it was .ust left un notice d • . Now the reason I asked, yesterday, for some proof of the en­ .'sineer ing and some proof of the planning, wa s because \ve 3.re con­ cerned with the $33 ,0 00 ,000 .0 0 - and I am repe3.t ing what I said yes terday - we are concerned wit h the ;$33 ,0 00,0 00 .0 0 road ex pend­ iture.

The work that is envisaged fr om Mafek ing to The Pas - (I '1 1 be critici ze d from a cr oss the way for givin g this figu re ) - but the grad in.g and the gr.3.vel ling v.rill, \·Jhen it's completed , cost pretty close to $5 ,000 ,000 .0 0. $5 ,0 00 ,000 .0 0 is one-si xth of the budget th'lt we are asked to pass. Now if , as proof, we have the word of the member :from Swan River - is that suff icie nt pr oof? On one-six th of the bud get, sh ould we aD prove the whole bud get , when that's all the informa tio n that we are able to get ?

Now, - I 'm so conv inced, I say this again and I re peat, .'3:0 ahead - giv e her ful l blast ; bu ild that hund red miles if you can do it. As a matter of fact , I have had people from the north congratulating me to day sayin g nwell, at least the gov ernment wi ll move Heave n and Hell to ge t that hundred miles done ", and I'm sur e that's true, to o. But I am so convi nced th 3.t it is a �hysical imposs­ ibil ity to bu ild that hundred mi les, Mr . Chai rman, - consid er rebuil di n� lOO miles of road on a st raight stretch on the Prai rie s? 18

Mr . Jobi n (cont inu ed ) Has it ever been heard of - let alone up north? I am so conv inced th at th ey can't do it in one year - and I am so convinc ed th at the y can't do any more th an roug hly 50 miles of it, that I would be prep ared to au to-ski over that amount tha t they coaplete - over th e 50 mil es, prov ided th at the Minister of Pub lic Works would make the sam e und ertak ing, - to au to -sk i over tha t amount th at they do n't finish withi n the next year - betw een now . and next De cember .

I say it can't be do ne and I am wi lling to make th at challenge th at I' ll sk i over ev eryt hing . in excess of 50 mi les th ey do, if he'll aut o-ski over th at in less th an lOO mi les th at they do n't do . MR. B. CORBE TT (Swan Rive r) : Mr. Chai rman, my name has been ment ioned here and if th e Minis t er of Pu blic Works will excuse me, I would like to say a word , re g3.rding th e impossibi lity of ' bu ild ing lOO mi les of road in one pie ce .

I have n't got the fig ­ ures, but I am qu it e sure th at, in th e last se ason, th ere has probably bee n tw o or th ree hund red mi les of new grading and grave lling done in th e prov ince. I cannot see :... th is was do ne in smaller se cti ons in va ri ous part s of th e cou nt ry, but I cannot see any more dif fi culty in build ing lOO mi les of road di vid ed int o fi ve or six dif ferent contr act s by cont ra ct ors, th an bui lding a greater num ber of mi les of road in vari ous parts of th e country. Reg· :trding th e surv eyin g - I have no offi cial inf oriTL'l.tion on th is.

It is just what I fou nd out from my own observ ation s, bei ng up on th e road . I don't kn ow wheth er the honourab le memb er for Flin Flon - he can't go home or he doe sn't tr ave l th at road - because th ere have been survey

part ies work ing up in th at cou nt ry, I beli eve, for the last tw o months or so . But I cannot swe ar to th at because I have no official inform at ion, except what I learned from my personal observ at ions . And I vm uld like to just men tio n another thing on th is est irrate here ; on th at point brought up by the honourable member for Ethe lbert ; on th at 20 .1 mi les of road. I th ink he wou ld see on th at it em there - it 1 s completio n of vmrk on there - wh ich is necess arily a job th at wasn't completed this sea son, the cont ract was let and natur ally they are going to complete it next ye ar.

And possibl y th e rea son it wasn't completed was the fa ct th at a great numb er of the cont racts were nqt let unt il so late in th e se ason th is year th at it was impossible for the m to fi nish their jobs th is year un der th is ye ar's appropri at ion .

I have not hing fu rther to say, but I am qu ite conf id ent th at I would like to have th e job of su pervising th at lOO mi les of road, . with all the hungry cont ract ors in the count ry sit t ing, tw iddl ing the ir th umbs, half the summer - a lot of the summer ; I am qu ite sure I would like to have the job of sup ervi sing the road, and I would assure the honou rable member I would make a sm all bet wit h him rig ht now, that it can be done and will be done. MR. M. N. Hi\.YHORCUK, Q. C. (Et helbert Plains) : Mr. Chairman, re lat ive to th at Foxwarr en-R us se ll road th at has been just 19

Mr . Hryhorc zuk (c ont inue

d) referred to by the honou rabl e mem ber fro m Swan River . The reas­ on I ra ised it , th e reason I am going to ta lk about it again ver y �hortl y becau se, referri ng to th e Winnipeg Trib une again, the fi nal edit ion of tod ay , if you lo ok on page 14, you'l l fi nd this , an d I qu ote fr om the pap er, "T he nev- r program inclu des pl ans for 38 mile s of concrete highway and 437 mi les of bitu min ous mat surf ac e". 43 7 mi les .

Dur in g the rec ess, I went to th e trou ble of going th rough this program to fi nd how mu ch mat was promise d in th e pr o gram , and I fi nd th ere was 43 7 .7 mil es . The news paper , an ybody reading that news paper, would take it for gran t ed that that 's 43 7 mi les of new mat . And I wan t to repeat , Mr . Cha irman, I have in for m ation , fro m ver y re li able sou rces , that at this mom ent , there are 14 mile s of th at road corapleted and thnt the bala nce will be comp leted within th e next few da ys .

Now this is only one ins tance of where we have been able bo obta in ac cur ate infor mat ion . The Honoura ble the l·Hni ster of Agricultu re , act ing as Mini ster of Pu blic Works , an ticip at ing that more · of this natu r e would be uncov ered, ca me in ton ight an d gave us a stat ement in general te rms . Yes , th ere were programs-- 1958 were ti ed int o this so- called new pr ogram . Now that is the point th at I wan t to ma ke, and I thin k it has been made .

Now insofar as my honoura ble frien d , the memb er fr om Swan River is concern ed, I'v e known the honou rable gent le man fo r a great many years -- in fact , I cons ider him one of my ver y close an d int imate frien ds . I th ink the first ti me we met is when he got int o govern me nt serv ice , wa y back in the earl y '20s -- I used to drive him .

And he made a gr eat reput atio n for hims el f in th e early '20s, because he did build roads th rou gh what wa.s considered impossible ter rain in th ose days , an d th e fi rst road tha t he built was a part of No . 10 , north of what we call th e to wn site of Powel l . Now, it also happens that th e honou rable member fro m Swan River was in ch arge of th e build in g of th e present No . 10 fro m Ma fek ing nor th . And the reason I know th at, lv.ir.

Chairman , is, back in th e '30s , we \ve re hunt ing cari bou up in tha t co untry , an d we ran across qu ite a numb er of t� l li nes that lo oked as if th ey had been run by en gine ering cr ews, any numb er of the m. Even tua ll y , we ca me to what is now P. T.H. No . 10 , and lo and be­ hold, there were hundr eds of men with wheel barrows , bu ildi ng the grade .

It was qu ite all right to put that gradeth roug h at th at time in th at fashion , but I, li ke the hono urabl e member fro m Fli n Flon, am ver y skept ic al whether to day, wit h the tr aff ic that we have , (t here was no traffic on th at road at th at ti me ) with the traff ic we have , th at he can do it . And if the honour able mem ber fro m Swan River ·will see me aft er we ad jour n, I'l l acc omm odate him wit h a little bet , if that is what he 's look ing fo r. MR . WILLIS : lv�r. Chairman , I th ink probabl y th ese gentle me n are not going to bet at all . I don' t th ink so .

I don' t thi nk there are going to be. an y bets in regard to it . I rise now on ly to say that th ese two honou rabl e gen tle men over ac ross the way , one a fi na nci al man and th e other a la V�ryer ; I on ly sugge st to the legislat ure tha t possibly a gr adu ate en gin­ eer, who has spent his lifeti me , prett y >,vell , on th is road, mig ht 20

well be cons idered to know more about it th an th e two hon our able memb ers who have spoken , and I have been at dif feren t gath erin gs , parti cularl y on e at T he Pas at the open ing of this highway, when it was stated by no less an aut hor ity than the then- Premier Bra cken , th at in his opi nion : Bert Corbett was the greatest road buil der th rough diffic ult ter rain that th ere had been up to then. And he put Mr . Barney Campbell , who assisted .o n it , as a close sec on d .

So that on that aut hority , I say to you that here is a man who thin ks it can be bu ilt? probably who has mo re experience in buildi ng roads in th at area th an an yone li vi ng , t l'a t he has bu ilt them , an d he says he would li ke to build this one .

J And I, for my part , wit hout fur th e r discus sion, am willing to accep t his word in regard to the probabil ities of it rather th an th e two gentle men who sit opposite o And , as far as it<le are concer ned , we rec ogni ze the re is a risk ; we are taking that risk , knowine; what it is, and it 's a calc ul ated risk, an d we have lOO mi les to build the re , and if we get a ver y wet season� we're in tr oub le . If we get a dry season, we have a good ch ance to finish it . And so we 1r e go ing ahead . MR. 'JOBIN : Jus t one observ ation . Somewhere along th e li ne , the mini ster has missed my poin t .

He says tha t this is a cal­ cul ated risk . He is rig ht . I agree with him . I co ngra tu late him for taki ng this cal cul ated risk . Ny con t ention has been, an d is, this is roughly , this job is roughly , one- sixt h of th e to tal bu dget for road s . My clai fu is that you have not had suffi ci en t en gine ering , nor given it suffici en t planning to say th at yo u' re going to do it . An d if this is the , the ca se here , then I sug gest may be it exists all the way th rough th is budge to I have one oth er que stion an d th at is "to ski or not to ski" th at is the qu estion . !-'lR .

WI LLIS : I have heard t. he honour able member make so many speeches in this legi sl ature in regard to th e neg lected nor th th at I th ought we would get no th in g but praise fro m him in regard to this road , instea d of crit icis m, an d I am just a li ttle sur­ prised th at he is thro wing road blocks in the way of it and that to a degree, he says it ca n' t be don e . Th ereby, he probably tri e s to fr ight en us in regard to it . But I assu re him th at for the ben efit 0f him and t.he people fro m the no rth, we will go ahead with it, no ma tter . MR .

JUBA : Th ere is an awful lot of bett ing here in th e House and I '.'.ras ver y su rpr ised when I heard of th e honoura ble memb er fro m Et helbert make an offer to th e gen tle ma n fro m th e north here , regardinG th e road program . It st ruck me as kin d of amusin g be­ caus e only a year or two ago , when he 'ovas th e Honou rable Atto rn ey­ General , I had asked him if he wou ld make a draw on a marg ar ine con test , an d he th ought it was just awful and he wouldn 't make the draw. Now he is bett ing . I won der , Mr .

Cha irman, if it would be in order for me to ask a que st ion of the min ority govern me nt , · if th ey have a lo ng ra ng e road program . The reason I say th at if it 's in order , because I have heard a lot of disc us sion here about 11 is th is a ne v.r program." 21

It remin ds me of my va rious trips int o the Provin c e of Que bec . On e gove rn ment that was in con trol of the province an d th e road build ing program at that time ha d deci ded to bui ld certain high­ ways . We happen ed to be going down th is highway. It was a beaut if ul con crete highway - and then we came up to th is big ch ecke rboard - that was th e en d of the highway. I had asked this manufa ct urer what happened to the highway .c nd he said th at govern ment was defeated an d th e follo wing gove rnment did no t have any int ention of co mpl et ing that highway .

Now I \,vas just won der­ ing if th e mem bers on this side of the House expected a program of that natu re ; that th e program th at was started by Liberals should be ended wit h a ch eckerb oard ; an d then this govern ment bring in an en ti rel y new type of progran and start roads else­ where . It is kind of con fus in g, Hr . Chairman ••••• pardon? •••• • to ta ke adva ntag e of my han dica p an d am goin g to have to be qu ic k and get the microp hon es . So the y did noth ing to be applied here as far as co nt in ui ng a program.

Yet , these programs , the pro­ gram of the Li beral Govern ment was fin e -- but it 's li ke yeste r­ day's ne wspaper . They have no control , so it 1s yesterd ay's news ­ paper - it was the old program - so this gove rn ment broug ht in a new program or a revised li st of what th ey in ten d to do . May it be on the same high\r�ay, or not , it doesn 't ma ke any di fferen ce . I th in k that is ver y import ant th at they co nt inue th e program and th ey just const itu te a ne w program 1 ca use it 1 s a nEilw govern ­ me nt . We 'v e got to fa ce real ity . Now, my explan at ion .

As I said before , alth oug h I sit on this side of th e Hou se, does not ne cessa rily express th e vi ews of the manage men t on this side. But I jus t won dered, gett ing back to the que sti on I want to ask . Does th e gov ern me nt have a lo ng- ra�1ce program , an d what I mean by th at is this ; will certa in rev en ue , th a t is your sale s ta x; your gasol ine tax ; be earma rked for highway co ns tr uctio n?

We have heard this argu me nt in the House some ti me ago , an d I just won dered if that wou ld const itute a long range program , bec aus e , in my opinion , I th ink it is a good program to un dertak e - highway co nstruct ion, based on ce rta in ty pes of reven ue . Now, I ca n' t give you det ails of what pm·t ic­ ular type s of reven ue - but ba sed on some sort of a Pormu la , in add1t 1on to grant s fro m the Federal Gove rnm ent .

Now, I don't know , it may not be a fair qu esti on to ask a minor ity govern ment , and I kn ovr th at possibly th ey Are not ma king long- range programs , not kno wing what the out come wiLL be. Ana if th at side of the Hous e seems , by some st range coincidenc e, a sort of get to gether of some natu re , to th r ow th em out ; but I just won dered if th at is not what they have in mind . And if so, I th ink it wou ld be a ver y v.relco me sort of a program . MR . R. TE ILLET ( St . Bon ifa ce ): I th ink there is one more que st ion here .

By this que st ioni ng , we have brought out qu ite a numb er of fa cts . Vle have disco vered on e poten ti al new highway in the const ituenc y of th e Honou rable Prov inci al Secretar y . I wo uld li ke to ask , under the items 'misce llaneo us '. Here you have about six or seven other ch unks of roads in oth e r ca bine t mini sters ' const itue nc ies with on e , I bel ieve , in th e whip's const itu ency . Are th ese al so pote nt ial new highways? An d , if the mini ster would 22

tel l us where the re might be oth er pot ential new highways devel­ oping in th e provinc e. MR . VV. LUCKO (S prin gf iel d ): Mr . Chairman , I ri se to def en d th e Hon ou rabl e Mini ster of Pu blic Works . MR . JUBA : That 's the reason I lef t it to th e ver y last . MR . LUCKO : Mr . Chairm an , I noted the re wa s so much con fus ion about ce rtai n mi les of road . One fello w sta tes fi ve ; one sta t es fou r ; <''nd in fa ct , my hono urable fr ien d fro m Beause jour says six,­ I had better ma ke this whole th ing clear .

Now, if you get th e program th at reads 1957 and 15 $, (a nd I will give you th e whole reason for th at ) an d vve ' 11 make a pretty good case out of it . Thi rteen mi les o� gra6ing �rom Anola to Provin ci al Tr unk Highway No . 1 East - th a t vms on th e 1957-5$ program . All right . Now, we go along to 1958-59 - th is ver y same road , fro m Ano la to Prov inc ial Trunk Highway No . 4 East, - gr av el. .L­ ed, calc ium an d chloride . Fine , we co me to th e new program '5 9, ­ just presented by Hon ou rabl e l-'linister of Highways to day .

He co me s alon g wit h this road , Fine , because I want ed to ma ke this qu ite clea r . I don't ��nt to be acc used that somebody may th ink why didn' t you do it an d when didn' t you do it . It 's just possibly -- it jus t cou ldn 't be done . Follo w here the se programs : 1. That 's the fir st year ; tha t 's th e secon d , an d I see you'r e doing the right th ing to sta y here . Now, the reason for th at five mi les of road con ne cti on is, you ta ke all th e traff ic th at is co ming fro m the East . We have heavy traff ic fro m th e Nort h, fro m Grand Beach .

Now, theypile into Beaus ejour an d you get th at bottl ene ck in there . The vmy we feel about this whole th ing is if you can break th e North tra ffic on the by-p ass of Beau sejour , and ta ke th em on th e No . 4, back into Winni peg, and if you can divide th e tr aff ic , sen d th em right to No . 22 , th at ha s to go to St . Bonif ace . And here , th at is th e logical solut ion, and I want to con gratulat e th e mi nister upon th at .

I fi le , if you no t­ ice my "for return" , beca use I perso n all y fo und th at th at shouldn 't be bu ilt as a ma rket road, an d I want to advise you ri ght now, you procee d with it an d get th at road built to the highway stan dard an d don' t be afraid ••.. • defend you on it . I can ass ur e you of that . :Mn .• JUBA : Would th e gen tle man li ke to ch ange seats wit h me? MR . LUCKO : Not with you . I'v e never been an Indepen dent , an d never will in my li fe . Mr . Chairm an, I am sur e that the whole travell ing publ ic in th e East will ap preci ate that that is the right solut ion .

Now, it may look to some honour able memb ers in this House, th at it is on ly withi n a mile 's differ ence . I �.vant to be fran k . I live withi n th ree mil es of th at road . Nobody knows it better , and it mig ht loo k to some of the fello ws , (n o, I am not talkin g for my self ) it mig ht look to some of the honou rabl e mem bers in th is House - how can you go an d bu ild an other road withi n a mil e's distan ce , when th e other one is fi ne? But that case th ere is 23

ent irel y differ en t th an you worild th ink •••• •• The re is just no qu est ion ove r th at . We mus t divide our tr affic back on to 22 . Onl y I feel sorry th at you went with your ne w program th is year, an d that th ey'd been as far as Anola , but you nev er went on 22 . You vvo uld have sol ved your pr oble m comp letel y for traf fic if you gave the m a du st-p roof roi"�d. I am not goin g to stress for that or an yt hing . An other program , I person all y feel , th at th e shou lde rs on No . 4, fro m Bea�sejour should be widened as fast as th ey can , to reach No . ll at Whitemou th .

This is a ver y heav y road , and I am satis fied that th e min ister , with his . spring pro­ gram , will co me alon g and he 'l l cons ider that . You'v e taken care of No . 15 ; you 'v e taken ca re of all other roads ; there is on ly one lef t and th at 's not a tr unk highway, it 's not a tr unk high­ way system, and th ere is qu ite a con f usion over it . And I am sure th e Honou rable Mini ster of Highv; ays has been approa ched by it . That is the road when the Trans -Can ada Highv;ay was built ' and the old Dawson road was turn e d back to the mun ic ipality .

Now, I don' t know what your opinion is, whether your int en t ion is to ta ke th at back as a tr unk highvt ay--I doubt ver y mu ch, but I would advise th e min ister with the traffic and th e old road th at it is, th at_ at least if you ca n't take it back to the trunk high­ way system, th at you vvi ll cons ider the mu ch higher percen tage so we can get th at road rebuilt in the highi,.ray st an dard . It is shar­ ing th e traff ic and th ere is no que sti on ove r th at . The se people should deserve th at .

Now, I will come back , bu t I'm not going to be good now . (N o, not you1 } -- I am co ming back to the Honour able th e Fir st Min ister now . I'l l st ill co me back to my days that we both were at the great open ing of th e water works at Beaus ejour on the 24th of Septe m ber. The Hon ou rable First Minister 'lrTas asked to speak and I list ened ver y caref ully .

And here is the words he had been us ing when he got up he sai d : 11I see what a gr eat ne ces- sity there is for you 'tlld.G you need th at No . 4 road to be rebuilt ." We are building the shoul ders for you . it/ell , I would adv ise," Oh, now wait a min u te . I list ened ver y care full y to th at . He said , 1 1We see th at it 's such a great nece ssity to th e people of the East and we are bu ild ing the shoulder for you on No . 4 high­ way" . Yes , Sir 1 lviR . ROBLIN : •• ••• my honou rable fr ien d talk s about shoul d ­ ers and th ings li ke that . MR . LUCKO : You spoke on th at .

Now, here is the th ird year 's program . It 's right here . What does this program say? Eight ­ een mile s fro m Lockport to Beaus ejour , - wideni ng , grade , st ruct­ ure and base. Now, did th e Honourable th e First Min ister have an ything •••• to do with it ; he was st ill in the poSit ion when th e work was aut hor ized . And a year la ter , yet , we got fro m Beaus e­ jour to Ty nd al , a year before we did the shou l de:r-s. 1JJe fu ll y rec­ ogni ze th at . vJe knew th at woul d be it . The re is no que st ion at all . 1i/e rec ogniz ed that . We did it . lJow, th at \oTaS on Septe mber the 24th.

A mo nth later , the Honourable the Mi riister of Publ ic Works come s with this press cli ppinr;. Nm or, I \'rant to read it again because I don't ,want to hear say the mi nister never read it , 24

never saw it . Here is what that press repor;t says : "T he Honou r­ able Errick Vlilli s , IYiini ster of Publ ic v.Jo rks an nounc ed Honday that his depart men t has starteu cn nstr uc�i on of four�lane high­ way east fro m Lockport to the point at Beaus ejour . This four­ lane highway road will con ne ct with the Lockport and with fo ur ­ lane s south of Winnip eg" . And th e min ister goes fur th er . The mi nister says , howev er , tha t he co uld not give no details as yet , on li kel y projec ts to b� paid out of the speci al $24, 000,0 00 .0 0 appropriat ion going before the sp ecial leg isl atu re .

Well , alr ight . To shoul der the expenditure of the mo ney , an d all of l<S , the mem bers of th e House , voted for it at this cu rren t L��­ islat ure . The state me nt li ke th at I said an d I was approache d by th e people from Beaus ejour ; th ey are st ill in doubt whether it 's a fo ur -l ane highway . Well , I am sati sfied I can make that state me nt . It is not a tr avell ing four -l ane highway. It is a 24-f oot blackt op road and an ei ght- foot shoulde r, an d I am su re the min ister will go al ong with me . I am not acc us ing h m on th at , but let it be clea r to th e people what it is .

I h�ve been telli ng that right along . They tol d me , well , we mu st beli ev e the mi nister for th at . I don't acc use th e minis ter, but I'm goin g to tel l you (I'l l be right in the lon g ru n) , th at it 's go ing to be a 24-foo t road an d eight -foot shoulde rs . Now, you have on your pr ogram here , I have not iced on th e new program , you have 6.1 mi les fr om Seddon 1s Corner to th e radar stat ion . Now, I hope th at you :vTill be mu ch more suc ces sf ul than we were in the last two or th ree years .

This six r.1iles of road in there , ('we have a lot of people tr ave ll ing there day and nig ht ) an d th e main reason of this whole th ing is that 's a radar st at ion ; that 's a na ti on al defen ce ; - not only Can adian , but joint-A me ri� can, - and the Highways Branch fully felt th at we should get some contr ibut ion fro m th e Federal Govern men t , or even fr om the United State s, bec ause this road is goin g to be bu ilt for th eir pur pose .

Now, th at is the que stion, I would li ke to know whethe r the Hon ­ oura ble Mini ster of Publ ic Works was succe ssf ul , rmd much more su ccessf ul th an we were, to get an y contr ibut ion to wards th e co n­ structi on of that road . I also co ngra tul ate him on it . That road is ver y badly needed to be put in there ,- -v ery badly ne eded. I hope th at the program that we have , th e new program , \ITill not be chang ed. I just want to ma ke a li ttle state ment .

Dur ing my time in the Hou se, when I ca me , - an d I1m speakin g of my own bou nd aries, of my own const itue ncy , \ITe on ly had 93 mile s of Provinc ial Tru nk Highways System, that is the old No . 1, what :vre call . With th e new ma p tha t will co me out next year , we will have 247 mil es of tr unk highway, an d I hope when th e mi J;lister will re­ ma in in that depart ment an d , carr y th e way I carr y , Ne will have mu ch,. many mor e mil es. He hav en 't got too many more to bu ild ; we'l l need mor e blacktop to finish the se roads .

And I co me back , again, an d I want to congra tulate him on th at extens ion of fi ve mil es to Beau sejour . I'm su re , I will help him , we 'l l defen d that . MR . SHUT TL LVJCR TH : rv:;r. Chairm an , I would just li ke to persue this new highway, beca us e, apparen tl y , the on ly new highway th at there is in th e program, is th e one th � t is lef t out . And th at 's 25

the road fro m Rath well , down to Notr.e Dame . Apparen tly , th at is th e beginning of a brand- new highway . It 's rather odd to me , Sir , tha t if th ere 's a new planning divisi on , that that step mig htn 't have been lef t unt il we have th e fu ll pl ans of a ne w highway an d that be in it . So I would li ke to ask the min ister if th at had been a tw o- th irds road previ ous to that , or on what basis it had been bu ilt . And we'v e also heard th is eve ning an d to day , Hr .

Chairm an, a lot about seeking infor m ation, an d I don't th in k I should let this opportu nit y go by without put ti ng the Hous e in on a li ttle experience that I had over the dinne r-h our . I deci ded I would seek a li ttle infor ma tion on my own , so, aft er dinner - we li ve out in th e , in th at area south of Corydon , on Lock wood - � ju mpe d in my car and I drove ou t Waverle y do\m to the perime te r rout e , just to see wha t had been done fro m VJave rley to Oak Bluff , be­ ca use I'd been over it a month or so bef ore .

I knew the co ncre te was started so I th ought I would sli p out an d see what vm s don e . And as I drove up unt o the road there vm s a fot'eman , who I took for a fore m an , being the re , he held a fl ash l ight . I stop ped an d wound the wind ow down an d I said to him , "my name is Sh ut tle­ worth, a memb er of the legislature , and I ·was in teres ted in see­ ing how this road was done ." "O h, " he says , "y our name 's Shut tle­ worth? C. L. Shut tl eworth?

Well , I 1:Jork for your Opposit ion , -­ you'l l get no infor m at ion out of me ." And , I felt like coming back and sugge st ing to the minis ter that he cer tai nly had his staff well trai ned . Howev er, I didn 't let th at stop me right there . I wen t on talki ng to him, and before I lef t , I'd fo und out qu ite a bit of info rm atio n . In fact J I fo und out th at two lanes of concrete had been co mp leted right fro m Wa ve rle y to Oak Blu ff , so not ta king th at as a co mp lete answ er, I drove it my self , an d ca me back in ar ou nd on No . 2, and back in again .

And certa in ly that 's goin g to be a ver y beaut if ul road when It 's comp leted , but I really got a great kick out of this , 11you 'l l not get an y inf ormati on out of me , I work for your Oppositi on ." I would li ke the minister to in dic ate to me whether the road fro m Rath well to Notre Dame has been a tw o-th irds road . MR . RI DLEY : Mr . Chairma n, I didn 't int en d to ge t dravJ1 int o this debate , but I am sur prised and alar med th at th e memb er fr om Ivlinne dosa said th is is a new road, --this boad fro m Rath well to Not re Dam e .

This is not a new proposed road , and I'm surp r ised th at you , bein g a member of the gove rn men t , ':hat it hasn 't been sugge sted someway , beca use we 'v e had , Oh, th ree, fou r , fi ve years ago , - th ree years in a row. I \va s ca lled over to Notre Dame de Lourd .es 1/ it h represen tatives from Portag e la Prairie . lv.r . Christie :, if I recall , was th ere th en, 'r as the mem ber fro m Cypress , I believe , an d th at road wa s proposed to be bu ilt fro m Rath well right thr oug h to No . 3 highway . It 's a stra ight road. There 's not a turn in it . So , it 's no ne\ r.r affa ir .

We 'v e been '.·mrkint:; on this for years . I went over \v it h th e late mem ber, Mr . Hugh ho rrison, an d, of cou rse, we were all vJe ll sat isfi ed to have it down on our en d . We were hoping for it . "1· t that 's as :'ar as it 's eve� gon e . And 26

I mu st co mm en d th e Prov incial Sec retar y fo r taki ng acti on and gettin g some work don e on it . So , talking about th ose ki nd of roads , I'm incl ined to beli eve the hono urabl e mer:1ber fro m Flin Flon , - that there 's going to be mo re Tor y gain s . If you keep talking about that kind of stuff , - th ere will be mo re Tor y gains . 1·�1<.. SHUT TLEWORTH : •••• � It 1 s not a. new road . I certai nly know the road qu ite well , but it 's a. new highway . That 1. s th e point I point ed out , - th at it 's apparen tly a. new hi ghway. HR . JUBA : Mr .

Chairm an, list enin g to the honour able mem ber fro m Minnedo sa, an d his tactics in approa ching the empl oyees, the civic 1empl oyees , the provi nc ial emplo yees, it was on ly a ma tter of a few years ago, th at I was crit icized an d co ndemned by th e same honou rabl e mem ber, when he .w as the Mi nister of Uti liti es, for talki ng to provi nci al memb ers , seeking some infor mat ion , an d I am ver y mu ch surp rised th at he should get up at this :time an d apply the same tact ics whic h he did not approve of sev eral years ago .

And I am ver y mu ch surp rised that th e mem ber adopt ed th em ta c tics . :tvffi.. SHUTT LEWORTH : Mr . Chairm an, on that parti cular occ asion, I un derstood th at th e honourable mem ber for Log an never said who he \v as . He went up and didn 1 t. ind icate who he \r.ras . MR . JUBA : I beg you r - pardon? I beg your pardon ; as such was not the case and you have had an awful qu ic k laps e of memo ry to even sugge st th at . And I thin k it is totall y wrong . And , I th ink , Mr .

Cha irma n, th at th e honoura ble memb er shou ld not have said th at , when he cri ticized and co ndem ned me on ly a ma tter of a year or two ago . To come before this Hou se, when he is sitt ing on th at side of the Hou se, an d apply the same tacti cs , it 's hard to un derst and , I can assure you. MR . TEIL LET : I didn't me an, I didn 't in ten d my que sti on · qu ite seriously . The it emsspeci fic al ly referred to ar e: Broad Vall ey; Fisher Branch ; Fraserwood ; Arborg. I th ink th e mini ster gave us th e in fo rma ti on on this Sifton P.T.

H. to 20 , Riverton West to Ferry Lan din g, Fish er Bra nch East , an d La Riviere South to U.S .A. Is it in tend ed that th ose roads will beco me part of the P.T.H. system? It 's pur ely a ma tter of inform at ion. MR . BOULIC : I may give , possibly , a li ttle bit of infor ma ­ ti on to the honour able memb er fro m �d nn edosa , abou t the proposed road fro m Rath well to Mani to u, ev en t. ua lly .

Tha t road has been tosse d arou nd for many , man y years , and it seeme d th a t ev ery ti me the Liberal s unfu rled th eir road program; ever y year th ey seeme d to run out of money at th at parti cular point , an d I must add , th at after ·look ing on the list th at was given to us yesterd ay , I vJa s won­ derin g whether the Con servat ive s weren 't running short of money , too . MR. GUTTO I�1SON : The minister has ' infor med us th at he intends to build ot her P.T.H. roads an d said he will an noun ce th em at th e 27

next session . I'm goin g to ask him . I'm inter ested in knowing whether any other plans are cons idered for No . 6 an d th e reason for me asking th is que st ion is in vie w .o f a st ate men t wh ic h was made by the Hon ou rable the First IUni ster in my presence . MR . CLEr-'IENT : hr • Cha irma n, in vie w of th e road dev elop men t th at is comin g alo ng , I mig ht sugge st th a t the Hon ou� able Deputy l'<inis ter , or mini ster , or Act ing r-. ini ster of Publ ic Wo rks , not forget th e one rema ining road in my const it ue nc y that he ha s over­ loo ked and tha t is No . 41 fro m St .

Lazare ac ross th e pla ins , an d I hope he wj ll bring it in in his future •••.• (I nt erject ion ) •••• • lis ten here , I have been try inc; to help you an d boy , if I ever . turn on you ! The on ly road left in my corst itue ncy that I th ink he should take into att ent ion and I reques tfull y sub mit th a t he give it co ns iderat ion at his next program , which I e;rpect he will brin g down later on this win ter . l"'lR.

ALEXANDER: ••..• compl inlent th e honourab le memb er fr om Birtle- Rus sell of being one of th e fev v Liberal s tha t wa sn 1 t com­ plaini ng about this road program and now he 's disappbint ed me . A Mem ber: Don' t you disappoint me . l'-,.t. GUTTORivlS ON : Mr . Cha irman, the Fir st Jvlinister ha s asked me to repeat what his stat emen t was.

Some two months ago , we both had the privileg e of atten ding a dinner in Ashern wh ich was ten dered by the mu nic ipal ity of Siglune s an d at th e dinne r ta ble , the First Minister ment ioned th e deplorable co nd it ion of No . 6 · highway , south of Lu ndar an d said at that ti me , he woul d brin g it to th e att ention of th e Min ister of Public Vlorks , whic h I \.Yas pl eased to hear an d I wa s wonder ing why it wasn' t on this program which has been shovm me , or shown th e Hou se .

A su bsequen t que st­ ion I �o uld just li ke for clar ific at ion ; I wou ld li ke to �sk the mi nister on th ese access roads ; where a road by-p asses a vill age , will it he one road , I me an � I'm speakitig of , for ins tan ce , th e tm m of Va rren, where th e highway ci rcles right around , - will th ere be one road leadi n::; into it and how Hill th ey deci de fro m whic h en d will th e road go int o the , th e acc ess will go into th e to wn? lVlR. £ .. ;.

E .l 'lcKE LLAR ( Sou ris- Lansdo wne ) : I \•Tould li ke to say a few words . �le have heard fro m pra ctica lly every part of th e pro­ vin ce , but I mu st con fe ss, the re has been ver y few remarks fro m the soli d sou th. But , I wou ld li ke to me nt ion th at we heard so mu ch about th e roads , the road bu ild ing up in the no rth - I wond er how man y mem bers ever to ok a trip t. o Fl orida . Did th ey th ink , may be, th e co nd it ions are te rrible?

In 19 27 -- If you go to Flor ida, you go down , take a tr ip across th e ev ergl ades which is in the ne ighbou rhood 6f 150 mi les , bu ilt th rough soli d mu skeg an d (}bout four or fiv e feet of water . "rhey have a ca nal up the one side, you can use for boati ng , an d I th in k , ,,,ith th e en gine er­ ing to day , we should have improved a co nside rabl e amount . If th ey could build th at in 1927 , th en su rel y 0e can build this road th roug h bog at th e presen t ti me . 28

JviR. CAJI.1PBELL : I 'm go ing to start of f my sp e e·ch by saying that I hadn 't ex pe cted to ta ke

part in this deb ate , but I will admit that th ere is one matter that I had not inte nde d to dis- cu ss in con ne ctio n with it unt il some att �nt ion ha s been made to th e road of interest to my honour able fr ien d , the Minister of, Pro vinc ial Se cre tary .

I, too , have had a gr eat deal of inter e st in th at road , be cause at one time , the proj ecte d road fr om, you begi n at No . 2 at Rathwell , go so uth to Not re D ame on to Manitou , and then go ing the other way from No . 2, acr oss to Porta ge la Prai rie, was of great in'terest to me and I wa s on those de leg a­ ti ons that , before th e time that my hon ou rable frien d sp oke of, for many yea rs .

And , I was even part of a deleg ation that came and called upon my then- colleag ue , who is Minister of Publ ic Wod· .s , who is now Act ing Minister of Publ ic Wor ks , again ; trie d hard to ge t him, at that time , to build that road . and being,; his colleag ue , in th ose days , I th oug ht tha t perh�ps I could use some infl uence with hi m. But his de ci s ion was made . I never comp la ine d too much about it . The decis ion was made back so me ye ars ag o , if n9t in my ho noura ble f rien d1s time , 1:>ut if not , then v ery so on aft erwards .

The decis ion was made to put the first so-c alled north - south high way in a loca t ion, I th ink it is appr oximat ely 14 mil es we st of th ere -- that is the so-c alled Gla dst one -Aust in-Ho llan d road , going on down to Swan Lake and so on sou th. The de cis ion was made , I mig ht say , in thos e times, ce rtai nly agai nst my small , in­ fluence , bec aus e, I, too , was a member of those de leg at ions and we tr ied to get that ro ut e accep ted .

The oth er one was ac cep ted, as I unde rs tand it , as an altern ati ve , at least fo r that time , and as the fi rst of th e Pro vinc ial Tr unk Highway s nor th and so uth . Now, I' m not complain ing . Wh en other pe op le sugge st th at we are co mplaini ng on th is si de of the Hou se , this is no t a co mpla int . Mine are not co mplaint s. 'Jie'r e simply se ek ing infor mat ion . But I woul d li ke to as k th e minis ter , is it nm., deci ded that '.ve are go ing to have nort h- s out h hi ghways, as close as l4 mil es ap art ?

I must con fess that I'd sti ll be glad to see that road pr ojec ted to the north si de . Oddly en ough , with th e re -distr ibuti on, the oth er road is now in my const itu enc y as well so ; if I d5 dn't have it at th at timP , I acq uired it la ter on .

This one , I th�nk , is a good ro ad if --- good loc at ion '"'"--if it is de ci ded th at thes e north- so uth roads to hi gh,vay st andard s, r-an be built as closel y as 14 miles to one anoth er , and I think that 's th e po int of in­ terest to us bec au se if the hi ghway pro gram is be ing exp anded to that exten t , that we can have now ins tea d of one trunk hi ghv-ray north and so uth bet we en Port ag e 1� Pra irie and Bran don ; if we can adop t the pr incip le of having one ever y 14 mile s or so , it rea lly will .make quite a differen ce .

I doubt that that po lic y w ill be en dorsed whol el y by the presen t govern ment . I rem ind my honou rable fri end , th at he was not to o inc li ned to tha t

part ic ul ar road years ag o , when he '\ras the mini ster . Vvell, time s chan £1:e. Pe rha ps it 's a c;ood plan . But th e qu est ion I have been �B it ing to as k to r a con s ider� able len gth of time . Again I'm see k:W).g infor mation that is ce r­ ta inly not crit icis m. I am in terested 'i n th e remarks of the hon­ ourabl e the minis ter , with reg ard to what he ter ms heavier roa ds , 29

and he ins ists that heavier roa ds ar e go ing to be bui lt . Now, I, in fa ct 1 understo od him to say that he had instruc ted the en ­ gine ers to go back and re-a ssess the plans that th ey had made so as to be sure and they brought in he avier , stron ger plans fo r him . No\ •T, the que st ion I ask or him, ar e these roa ds go ing t.o be hea vier than this one - my coll ea gue says th ey :i.ns pected· · ton. tght - the Waverley to Oak Bluff road? Are the y go ing to be heavi er , if th at 's the proper ter m, than tha t roa d? Are they going to be hea vier than 75?

Are they go ing to be hea vier than the new Trans -Can ada betwe en Winnipeg and Porta ge la Pra irie ? And if the y are go ing to be heavier than th o se, where is the locati on of those heavier ro ads? I would be interested to kn ow th at . The n to co me back to this po int that we have been try ing to make , and we 'r e not trying to make it with any carp ing cr iti­ ci sm , we ' re trying to make it be ca use we re all y want to know hm v much of this progra m is dup licati on .

Because whe n the raini ster says that in some cases money \vas transferred fro m work that wasn 't going to be done th is year , to some other work that was done , sur el y the money was not transferred fr om this secti on down here li ke the member fr om Minne dosa refers to as be ing co mpleted now, so far as th e paving is co ncern ed . The money would n't be tra nsferred fro m th er e . That job is done as far as th e ma jor expen dit ur es are co nc erned and yet , we have a 6.7 miles , sh owing on this sh eet .

Now, that 's the same kind of a po int that the honourable member for Et helbert Pl ai ns ha s been ment ioni ng with reg ard to the 20 mi les . We 'r e not arg uing about th e mil eag e that 's shown but we are sayi ng that it sh ould not be esti mated that all of that cons truct ion is to be done . Now , I know that .t he exp la nat ory note says co mpl et ion of conc rete paving . In this case , I think as of the date tha t it is laid on our desk , it is alread y co mpleted .

But my point is th at the mileag e 6.7 is sh own over here in to tal and , natura lly , I would th ink th at .6 7 will be the fi gure that 's used in add ing up th e con c�ete mil eag e that 's be ing don e , is to be done , in this so- called new prog ram . And us ing that 6.7 mil es as an ex ample , that 6.7 miles is alre ady done l Now, I vvo uld like to know how many other cases there are of th at same kind of thing , beca use that real ly th rows th e cal­ cula tion co mpl etel y out of balance as far as I can see . JllR. E. J.

WI LLIAMS ( Chur chill ) : ••.• heart wringing ef fort I have heard in the last two days . It is ironi cal th at I should co me fro m the larg est land are a in th e Province and have the least mil es of roads and st ill noth ing in this for me . I feel somewhat li ke Ci nderel la . I feel in similDr circums tance s as th e honourab le member fro m Rhi nelan d , that the only dif feren ce is that .th e Fa iry Godmother ha s not visited my area yet , but I under­ st and th<it sh e ha s been ve ry good to him in the past ,. MR . WILLIS : Fir st , the Leader of the Op pos iti on .

I would be glad at a subseq uen t date , to sh ovv him where the he avier con ­ str uct ion is to be . He will know as well as anyone that constr uct­ ion will be in ac co rdan c e wit h the soi l and in �cco rdance with the traff ic whic h it is to carr y . Theref ore , el l will not be .h eavier but consider able will be heavie r, and that re visi on was 30

made so that it would be heav ier in that way . Now, th e Honoura ble the Leader of the Oppos ition, ha s spoken about the hi ghway (w hat I li ke to call th e Hol land road ) and I think I v1a s on the jo b when they sta rted that . 34 ? Be cause the fir st th ing that was done was to build the bri dge s and once the bridge '"'as built , the hi ghway foll owed .

And in reg ard to the planning the re , I thi nk if you 1 d take a ru ler , yo u 1 d fi nd out that High�.,ray No . 34 is almo st in the ex act cen tr e between the nex t hi ghway s which run fro m No . so ut h, (a lmost exac tly in the cen tre ) that is betwee n No . 13 , which runs sout h fro m Oakvi lle , and th e No . 10 so uth from Bran don . This is almo st exac tly in the cen tre and that was the pur po se of that loc atio n .

The n, vvhen you sp lit th at agai n, you have No . 4, which I would hope would co me direc tly so uth, directl y so uth ac rC>ss th e Trans-C anada and down to a po int be­ tween Rathwell and St . Cla ude , as I see it on the map, and th at again , is almo st ex a ctl y in the cen tre between the ne xt two hi ghways , namely No . 13 and No . 34 . That would ap pear to be a logical locati on for the next north - south hi ghway in that area , - almo st exac tly in th� ge og rap hi cal cen tre . The ref ore , I su gge st a reason able pla ce .

Then when you , you do have to , fro m No . 2, you do have to move we st sl ightl y to Rathwell , and where we would co me down aga in to, probably ; Alta mont , and th ro ugh th ere . And as far as that is co ncern ed , it 's almo st ex actl y hal f-way again , betwe en th e next north-s out h high way . In my office one day , some ye ars ago , a ver y nice -loo king yo ung lady ca me in and she wanted to see me . She ca me in an d said : "I 'v e just one que sti on to ask, and th en I'l l le ave .

Is there any law in Man itoba agai nst build ing a hi ghway north and so uth?" I 111 ah vay s r emember that , and I think sh e was ex actl y rig ht that while we had east and we st hi ghway s by the doz ens , we had ve ry few nC>rth and so uth hi ghways. And , therefo re , th is , I th ink , is reCJ_so nably i!,O od plan ning , so fa r as the hi ghway is conc erned . The honou rable member for Chur ch ill has sp oken , and I th ink he knows that we have plans for Churc hill roads as well as other s. In fa ct , ,..,e have so me of them under cons truct ion at the mome nt .

And while th ey 'r e not tru nk hi ghways, they \d ll se rve Churchill in a way that Churchill was not se rved prev iousl y . The member for Log an , was as king in reg ard to a lo ng-ran ge prog ram . May I sa y to him that we exp ec t , this winter , to se t up our pl anning divisio n and fro m that will co me largel y our lon g-ra nge plan ning , at that time . Under the Ontario sy ste m, the y plan to plan in adva nce , at lea st fi ve years . Wh en I wa s last there , they had co mpl ete d the three ye ars under a plan which we will follo w fa irly clos el y in the Pr ovince of l·lani to ba .

The member for Logan asked if we were going to ea rmark our ga soli ne tax , an d may I say that th ere is no pr es ent plan in th at reg ard . The member fo r Sp ri ngfield has as ked if th at was a fou r- lane hi ghway . 1-,ay I say to him , it was never :i_ntende d to be a fo ur ­ lane hi ghway . I is sue d no state men t that it ever wou ld be a fou r-la ne hi ghway and it is ex actl y as he ha s indi cat ed, a 24- foot top. The member for Mi nnedosa sai d we 1 d better get our new plan­ ning divi si on go ing , be caus e he did n' t li ke the plans , and , I 31

Hr . Willis (c ontinued ) th ink I ha ve co vered that be ca use it will be don e ve ry soon . Now, there 's just one other matter that I would li ke to me ntion . I think the member for Minne dosa had a kind of an amus ing ex­ pe rience to nig ht , when he ran across a man who sai d he was a supp orter of this gove rnment . May I tel l him that there are get­ ti ng to be more of them all the time . But I we ll remember , a fe w years ago , when I was Leader of the Op pos ition .

I we nt to La c du Bonne t and I ,.,rent down to whe re the pla ne s we re , there , an d I sa id to him , the man in ch ar ge , there , I sai d "My name is Errick Will is . I ha ppen to be Leader of the Op pos ition . Is . there any ch ance of me getti ng a ri de on one of these pla nce s? 11 He said , 11N o , Sir . Nothing but gove rnme nt big-sh ot s". MR . TEIL LE T: I st ill hav en 1 t had a que sti on to my an swer - an answe r to my que stion, even Itm ge tt ing befu ddled he re . I st ill haven 't had an answer , and I do mean - I did int end th at · que st ion se ri ously .

The min ister just now indi cat ed a new ro ut ing of a po ten ti al hi ghway between 13 and 34, and I think it 's of intere st to al l of us to kn ow if this La Riviere so uth to U. S. A. con ne ct ion is part of it . I do - I wo uld li ke to know if thes e miscella neous ite ms ar e inten ded to be co me part of the trunk hi ghway sy ste m? MR . VHLLI S: I' m so rry that I omitt ed that , beca use I ·d idn' t do it on purpose . Whe n you loo k at th ese , yo u' ll fi nd in the mi sc el laneous ; many impo rtant roads ; so me of them are lO O% roa ds .

And as far as that is co ncern ed, te ch nicall y , I suppo 13e so mebod y mig ht catc h me up and say th ey 'r e not defi nitel y trunk hi ghways. In addition to that , th ere are a fe\v in th ere whic h st art , or sta rt ing of a trunk hi ghway , and this time ., for instq.n ce , the road thro ugh Si fton ; it is one of those 1vhere it 1 s not yet a trunk hi ghway beca use we are ag ai ns t th e policy of call ing it a trunk hi ghway before it is . Jirmny Gar diner di d that in Sask at­ chew an ; th ey demanded that he have more trunk hig hv.rays; he gave them 5,0 00 mil es one day and had th e si gns put up .

They st ill have the m , and they 'r e st ill mud t And so , we want to ke ep as fa r c.s po ssi ble away f'rom th at plan, and larg e ly the se are trunk highways, but in a few instance s, you "�trill fi nd that th ey 1 re just 10 0�6 roads . NR . TE ILLET : The answer then would be that the se ite ms ha d not at this mome nt , inte nded to be a part of yo ur pl an to ex­ ten d th e trunk syste m, at this moment . lv�R. WIL LIS : They hav e an excellent ch ance of be ing - le t 1 s put it that wl'1.y. In reg ard to the by-pass a:t \rlarren, I 1m so rry that I by­ pa ssed that myself .

In ge neral , there will not be a ro ad in and another road out . Th ere will ju st be the roa d in � There pro bably will not be ex cep ti on to that ; I know the lo .c ation at '11/arr en ; I'v e driven in th ere many times . I have one ver y good frien d there whom I call on freq ue ntly , and th ere I unders tand, of cou rse , it 's a slant ing road , and it would be probably lo gical to go in on the angl e that ••• I do n't thi nk that wotild beco me 32

Mr . Willis ( co nt inued ) th e govern ment 's pol ic y , bec ause if we di d , there ' d be no en d to it . I think it will be one ro ad in and yo u' ll hav e to come out on the same road . t-·1R. GUTTO ID1SON : The state ment made by the First Nini st er .· to th e Counc il . Is there an y c ons ider at ion give n to put ti ng a· b ituminous mat on the No . 6 liightV'ay south of .Lun dar? A member : The darn thin g' s fall ing ap art . JvlR. GUTTORlv J:SON: Are you suggest ing that ••••• MR . WILLIS : It mig ht have a chance . on the winter program? MR . CAMPBELL : Mr .

Chai rma n , I would li ke to get a li ttle further infor mation with reg ard to the so- call ed hea vier roa ds . I know that my ho nourable fr iend, the minister , would not be , cons idered it a c ompl iment if I co mp ared him to so me ex tent to Ji mmy Gardin er , whom he ha s ment ioned . Be caus e if Ji mrny Gar diner created 5, 000 mi les of trunk highway s all in on e day, 1 think my honourable fr ien d ha s a ten dency - an admirable ten dency , to make a pro gram so und , ver y int erest ing and use pretty expressive words to de fi ne it .

And , he has talked so muc h about these heavi er road s , the se better roads , these st� onger ro�ds - th at th ey 're going to build under this new re gime , th at I' ve be en . trying to fin d out where they are and what t hey a re . Now, in answer to my que st ion, th e honourab le t he mi nister sai d that, as I \·Joul d rea li ze, that th ey dep end upon the soi l con ditio ns and the tr af f ic . Now, that 's 'l.vhy I as ke d; that ' s why I used for illust rat ion the th ree ro ads that I did .

Can yo u get a roa d where th e traffic and the soil co nd it ions both req uire the he avy typ e of road mo re th an this one dovm south fro m tiave rle y Street to O ak eluff , or a large portion of 75 highway ; or a l arge port ion of the one be twee n he re and , bet ween �llinnipeg and Porta ge l a Prairie . Th ose are the heavy land sect ions <' nd heav ily tra velled roads . Now, what I wo uld li ke to ask him , is there there anyt hing the matt er wit h th ose road s? I s t here any th ing wrong w:Lth th e con­ str uct ion ? Are they going to bu ild heavier roads than th at ki nd , and if so, where? MR .

WILL IS: I th ink it 's tr 1.�e that a number of th em have stood up ver y wel l , and th ere 'l l be a. lot more roads built to that same st andar d. Let me decla re , we're not go ing to build any roads better th an 75 . Ju st no roads , be cause tha t 's now the st ro nge st road in Can a da , and we will not be build ing be tter roads than th at . l\!R. CANPBELL : Is 75 any s tro nger than th es e ot he r roads i menti oned? .MR. \v iLLIS: Yes , def init el y . HR . CAl,'iPBELL : No, I do n't thin k so . I di sa gr ee . 33

l1 ,R . WILLIS : I co uld prove it to you . }t:Z . CAlWBEL L: I'd li ke to have the proof . l·d:Z. v!I LL IS : I'l l give it to you now . I said to the Chief Eng ine er' of Cana da Cemen t Compan y , nwhy do you say this is th e best road in Can ada?" I said, "I doubt it" .

He sRid, ""�:Jell , it 's fa irl y simple ," he said, TTp oint Ho . 1," he said, "you have mo re steel in this road than an y road in Can ada ; you'v e Got heavier steel in this than an y road in Canada; in addi ti on tto that , when you ma de your cement , . your mix "�·'!aS cr ush ed rock to a heavier exten t than an y other road in Can ada". He said, "f or that rea­ son" , he said "I ,.vould say to you - this is the heaviest road in Can ada , 'and th e best built r'oad in Can ada" .

And th is is th e Chief Engin eer of th e Can ada Cement Compa ny , who is th eir top ma n as far as planning is conce rne d who tol d me th at . And he has repeated it sev eral ti m es, incl udin g in Mont real at th e last me et ing of th e Cana dian Good Roads Associ at ion . So , it 's be­ cause it 's got more steel in it ; mo re reinfor ci ng steel ; 5/ 8 steel \•rhic h is an un usual size , an d it 1 s got mor e crushed rock in the cement . For th ose two reasons , in his opinio n , th e man, probably better able to say than anyone el se, ha s said th at is the st rong est road . l•.R .

CAlv �P BELL : But I wouldn 1 t pose as an expert on the roads , but I th ink my honoura ble fr ien d would agree that the base has perhaps more to do with the rOad th an even the st ·eel; and the cem en t, and th e cru shed rock , cmd I su ggest to him th at the base th at 's put in th ese new roads have been bett er th an the one in 75 . However , I1d like to hear some oth er expert 's opinion on it . But wou ld th e honou rabl e th e mi nister tel l us where the se other str on ger roads are goi..ng to '!-_;e bu ilt? MR . WILLIS : It 's a simple ma tt er, Mr .

Cha irm an, th at I have had a talk with our top en gin eers, an d I 'v e said to th em th at I think probably in pla ces where you have plan ned t hese roads , you would be of the opinion tha t probabl y you should have spen t a li tt le more ort th em an � tha t you should have had a better fo unda­ tio n on th e road than you have . They said , "y es , th at 's probably true • But there 's some of th em th at \,rere doubt ful about � as to whether th ey will stan d up" . And I said , "f or goodne ss sakes, make them so th ey will st and up , whatever is need ed" .

And the y said , "w ell , it 's mo stl y a que st ion of base co nr se" . An d I sa id to th em , 11well , ma ke the b8.Se COUr Se thicker th en, more SUQ­ sta nt ial , even th oug h it may cost some more money ," but I said 11on t.ho se roads , on any road which you 1 re in doubt , increa, se the spec ific at ions .for better roads , so th ey will last lon ger, be­ cau se I am .sti ll of th e opinio n , th e cheap est roads in Ma nitob a to bu ild , in th e en d, have been the most expens ive , because of up keep" . · IYIR.

CAl'IPBEL L : Jl.'ly honoura ble fri en d , I th ihk would · ha. ve a li st of the one s that he 's goin g to do because su r el y he 's not goin g to do th at with all th e roads . He 's not going to bu ild 34

Mr . Campbell (c on t in u ed) that kind of a road wit h this , - on this one projec ted ac ros s the north and sou th road . And , i'lr. ChairEJan, does my honou rable fr ien d really .'WY that he 's going out on a larg e part of this program to bu ild better roads th an thP. Tran s-C ana da? Does he sugge st that th e en gine ers of the depart men t here have not been to ld all the ti me to build the best roads they can ?

Does he ' . su ggest that the Trans -Cana da Highvmy , wit h the feder al en gine ers as wel l, with Jerr y Will iams , who lef t here , an d he hi ms elf to ld us th at we lost ou r best engin eer when Jer ry Will iams \ve nt away ; an d Jerr y \'Jill iams has been in to uch , - in ch arge of th is job , - does he su ggest that isn' t a go od road , an d tha t he 's goin g to build better? I don' t thin :k so, and Mr .

Cha irman , th e th ing tha t I object to is my honou rable fr ien d going a round tal king about what th ey 're going to , - no vT th at th ey're in here , - bu ild th ese good roads , th ese st ron g roads , as th oug h the ones th a t were built bef ore weren 't good roads . He 's tr ying to su ggest th at th ere 's some th in g th at has been lack ing in the road pro­ gram bef ore , an d I say , an d so has my honou rable frien d the FirR t hi nister ••••• JVlT-t. RO BLIN : Su re, and I'l l say it again .. MR .

CAlv1PBELL : Yes , you 'l l say it again, and you won 't be right when you say it , an d you 're not right right now . MR . ROBLI N: Oh , yes I am . Ivffi. . CAJVlPBELL : Oh, no , you' re not . !'viR . RO BLIN : Oh, certa in ly I am ! l-iR . 0\MPBELL : You'v e been saying it. bec au se you th ink it sounds popular an d mak es a big-sh ot out of my honoura bl e fr ien d himse lf to be talkin g about it .

The road program here has been one that nobod y needs to be ashamed of an d I object to th e ten d­ enc y th at my honou rable frien d th e min ister has of ta lk ing a whole lot of high- sound ing phrasm•r about what th ey 1 re going to do \•The n th ey hav e no plans to do th em at all . MR . ROBLIN : Tell it to th e vote rs . HR. CAHPB E LL: I'm te lli ng it to you . l'JiR. RO BLIN : th ey 'l l give you the answ er . hR . CAiv.PB EL L : I 'm telling it to you and you tell it to the vot ers and ••••• l-lR. RO BLIN : We vvi ll . IviR.

CAl'-IPB ELL : An d if th e vot ers knew how badly you 1 re blu ffin g th em on this road program , the voters would take approp­ riate mea sure s. This .p rogram of th e new roads is a bl uff , Mr . 3 5

Mr . Campbell (c on t in u ed) Cha irm an; it 's a bluff . That 's what it is a blu ff t J.,lR. ROBLIN : You wouldn 't be so "h ot" if it ,,,as a bluff . lvlR. C.Al'-iPBELL : Look , I'm huff ed beca use I don' t li ke bluffe rs . :t-m. ROBLIN : Oh t Go on . and sit down . 1-.m. WILLIS : l--1r. Cha irman, if we co uld just get a little orde r in here , I wo uld like to say a very few words .

The First hini ster has said that he doesn 't th in k our program will be better th an th e predec essor . \'le' re going ahead an d we ' re going to bu ild our roads a little thic ker an d a li ttle heavier th an before an d we ' re not goin g to build any mo re high\,ray s li ke No . 6 highway and several oth ers. But we 're going to bu ild th em just a little heavier , an d on ly the futur e \vi ll be able to show as to whether th e Leader, of th e Opposit ion is right or I 'm right .

But I should li ke to point to him, alt hough he won 't li ke me doing so, I should li ke to poin t , if I may , again, to highway No . 75 , which was built properly an d is stan ding up well . I woul d li l�e to point again , in spite of th e jeers and ch eers, to highway No . 10 on which th e up keep has been just cu tt ing the grass. MR . CAMPBELL : And does my honou rable fr ien d say , (I kno w what he says about 75) , does he say that No . 10 is a better high­ way th an th e Trans -Can ada? And does he say th at he 's going to build that type of road all over Ma nit oba? MR . WILLIS : No ! MR .

MILLER : Well , where is he go ing to build th em? MR . WI LLIS : In other cas� th e Leader of th e Op posit ion al­ way s says "do es he say?" -- al ways th in ks th at I'v e never said it . And we're goin g to build better roads where better ro ads are need ed, an d th e engine ers will dec ide where th ey are going to be bu ilt an d also th ey will deci de th e qu alit y of th e road , depend­ ing upon th e lo cation ,- -a simple en gine ering proble m . We have instru cted th em, - th ey are cap able , - th ey will do it . Th ose roads will be bui lt .

An d bec ause , su ddenl y , ·�e raise th e st and - . ard above th at 'ltThich ha s been ordina ril y th e ca se, th at is not a cri me . People who drive aut omobiles in Manit oba, will not co n­ sider it a cr ime . People here will say th at is th e right point of view. Th ey will say it fro m th e point of vie w of the ta xpayer, th at will save us mo ney , as it has on 75 , an d as it ha s on 10 .

And in each location, we'l l build the appropr iate type of road for th at loc ati on, depen ding upon th e soil ; depen ding upon th e traf fic which it carr ies; depen din g upon th e planning divisi on an d th e �ngine ers ' advice ,- -as simple as th at . l\lR. CAl'·lPBELL: Mr . Chairma n, may I ask \·!hat dif fer ence th at is to what 's been don e all th e \vay alon g? Just exactl y the same 36

Mr . Camp bell (c on t�n ued ) program th at's been follo wed right alon g . v:Te' ,.-e built some roads , of cou rse , th < " t are not of this st and­ ard, --of ca us e we have . If we had bu ilt all th e roads to th e sta ndard th at my honour able fri en d like s to talk about , we wouldn 't have had an ything like the hard-su rf ace roads as we have in Ma nitob a to day .

Becau se no le gisl at ure that has ever me t here , - no leg islat ure th at has ever met here , wou ld have approp­ riated th e money to do th at kind of a job, an d there ,�rou ldn ' t have been th e equip ment avai lable to do it even if we had th e money .

And you have to have a program th at give s th e mo st value for th e money th at you have availa bl e. .f\'iy honou rabl e frien d , I repeat , that he 's got a program he.r e that's ju st exac tl y th e same as has been put into effect in year s gone by, whic h is graduall y build in g bette r roads as mo re money is ava ila ble , an d he 's just · trying to make it out th at it 's somet hin g new. I repeat , there 's a lot of bluff in it . l'-'lR. HRYHORCZUK : Mr .

Cha�rma n, . f I un derstood the honour­ able min ister co rrec tl y, when he asked as to where th ese better an d bigger roads are going to be bui lt , his answer was th at the en gine ers will fig ur e out where th ey are needed and th at th ey will bu ild the typ e of a road that 's needed in th at

part ic ular area . I'd li ke to ask the honou rabl e min ister how he arrived at th e fig ure of 33 mil li on doll ars , when he doesn 't know, and ad­ mit s he doesn' t, what kind of roads are going to be built where? MR . WILLIS : That 's str ictl y nons en se. The an swer is ve ry simp le .

The en gine e�s sit dov m, an d th ey say, well , fo r this locat ion , for the tra ffic whic h is th ere, we require th is ty pe of road, th at type of road � Judging by th e experien ce of th e past years , will co st us so ma ny doll ars per mile ; put the fi g­ ures opposite and then when they 're th roug h, it is 33 mil lion dolla rs , - a simpl e en gine ering ca lc ulat ion done after wards on an adding ma chine • .tvlR.. PREFO NTA INE : Mr .

Chairman, it seems to me th at th e min ister gives a lot of cr edit to the en gine ers fo r the type of roads th at are bu ilt , but he seems to th in k that the en gine ers are not qu ite so good when it 's not himself th at 1 s the Jliinister of Publ ic Works . It seems to me th at th ese me n are good me n you have in th e depart m en t , c;md we ha d in the depart ment . They ' re good road build ers � Ivlr. George Col l ins , and I believ e he built good roads un der Mr . Will is, the presen t min ister ; and he buil t good roads und er Mr . Mort on, un der Mr . Bell an d und er Mr .

Robert­ son ; - ca rried on ·with th e same pol ic y just a bout . I don' t thin k there vva s mu ch inte rfe rence with his work . He has ma de reco rnm.enda­ ti ons . He bu ilt good roads . We have a good system of roads in this provin ce , an d if I had th e ma p here th at �;ve had ten years ago , an d the one th a t we have to day , you wou ld see how man y mor e mi les off airl y good roads , good roads better th an they ha ve in Saskatch ewan , - I've trav elled there qu ite a bi·t , -m uch better .

And I say th at th ese men are th e same und er a min ister or und er anot her one , an d th at we have had th e ro ads mu ch bett er th an th e 37

(M r . Pre fo nt aine - co nt inu ed) Oppositi on, as the Premier an d th e liinister of Publ ic Wor ks has tried to lead th e people of Ma nit oba to bel ieve . Hi :Z . GUTTO RI1ISON: Hr . Cha irman , a few mome nt s ago , th e minister said "we won 't be building an y more road li ke No . 6" . Mr . Cha irman , I1 rn not an expert on roads , but en gin eers, a numb er of th em , have told me 'th at th e soil conditions in th e in ter- lake are the fi ne st in th e provinc e for building roads and th at Uo . 6 highway is one of th e best in the provin ce .

They say all we need , all you need on the road now , north of St . Laur en t to Ashern, is a bitum inous mat . The .onou rable the First l·iinis­ t�r , has just said it 's fall ing apart . It 's true th at some of the doubl e prime has crack ed, but it was on ly designed and on ly put on there temp orari.J y to les sen th e dust and it 's novv in a positi on that you can lay a bitu minous mat . Yo u' d have the fin est road in th e provi nce . Put the bittooino us mat on the re , - there 1 s nothing vvr on g with th e No . 6 highway . MR. LUCKO : Hr . Chairm an, all that argum en t go ing on .

I would just li ke to give a li ttle stat istic of the highway bran ch, and here it is . The follo wing table shows th at great growth in the var ious types of tr unk highway systems between 19 45 and '57, th a t is last year . All right , in 19 45 we had a tru nk highway system 1,9 75 mile s. In 1957 ••••. MR. ROB LIN: You know you' ll have to table that . You had better be ca ref ul what you'r e