Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 16 (30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-16

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o' cl ock, Thursday, February 14, 19 74 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTROD UCT I ON OF GUESTS 375 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honour able members to the gallery where we have 55 students of Grades 6, 7, and 8 standing of the St. Andrews, Sel kirk Juni or High and Happy Thou ght Schools. These students are under the di rection of Mr. Rathgeber. This school is located in the constituency of the Honour able Member for Sel kirk, the Attorney-General.

We also have 30 students of Grade 9 standing of the Bel iveau Junior High School. These students are under the direction of Miss McCoubrey. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Radisson. On behal f of al l the honourable members I wel come you here toda y. Presenting Petition s; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committ ees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports. The Honourable House Leader. TABLING OF REP ORTS HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Manage ment) (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to table the annual report of the Department of Mines and Re sources and Environmental Management. Mr. Speaker, I'd also like to table the annual report of the Communiti es Economic Development Fund. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Ed ucation. HON. BEN HANUSCHAK (M inister of Education) (Burrows): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to table the annual reports of the Departme nt of Ed ucation for the year 19 72/73, the annual financial report of the Board of Governors, the Lieutenant-Governor-in-C ouncil, for the year ended March 31, 19 73 of the University of Manitoba; the annual report of the Universities Grants Commission for the year ending March 31, 19 73; the President's report of Brandon University for the year 19 72/73; and the report of the University of Winnipeg for tte year ended March 31 ) 1973 . MR. SPEAKER: Any other reports? The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recre ation. HON . RENE E.

TOUPIN (M inister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs) (Spring field): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the report of the Manitoba Arts Council, year ending March 31, 19 73, including the Auditor's report and financial stateme nts, year ending March 31, 19 73. MR. SPEAKER: Any other reports or Ministerial St atement s? Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills. The Honourable Member for Morris. INTRODUC TION OF BILLS MR. WARNER H. JORG ENSON (Morris) introduced Bill No. 23,

an Act to amend the Liquor Control Act. MR. SPEAKER: Questio ns. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. ORAL QUE STIONS MR. SIDNE Y SPIVAK, Q. C. (Leader of the O fficial Opposition) (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question is to one of the three, four, five, six, seven members of the Executive Council who are here, but really to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, and it re lates to the series of questions and the explanations given yesterda y in connection with the Manitoba Development Co rporation.

I wonder if the Minister can now confirm as a result of the guid elines that have been established that the policy of the government with respect to the Manitoba Development Corporation is that any ext ension or additional to an existing loan, or any ext ension or addition to the purchase of equity of a company, cannot be finalized by the Board of the Manitoba Development Corporation without the political approval of tl e Min ister or the Cabinet . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minist er.

376 February 14, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I enunciated the policy yesterday and I prefer my language to the language of the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Well, Mr. Speaker, then I take it that it is the policy. I would now ask the Minister, and I'm sorry the First Minister is not present now, to indicate how the Order in-Council or why the Order-in-Council 708 was passed on July 4, 1973 for $37, 500 for Special Emergency and Assistance and was credited to Misawa Homes. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd have to look at the Order-in-Council that the honourable member is referring to. MR. SPIVAK: Well, Mr. Speaker, then I will forward the Order-in-Council to the Minister. I would want by way of supplementary to know whether this amount was by way of loan or by way of a grant. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'd have to look at the particular Order-in-Council and review what the reason for it was, and I am not going to do so on my feet at the moment. I'll look at it and I'll give the honourable member an answer. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. I.

H. (IZZY) ASPER (Leader of the Liberal Party) (Wolseley): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question's to the Minister of Labour. Is it a fact that the Provincial Department of Labour, or other departments of the Provincial government, approved the plans and in spected the Powerview Arena prior to its construction, and its roof collapsed last night. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): I'm not sure, Mr.

Speaker, whether we were involved in that, but I will take the question as notice and I'll give an answer to my honourable fr iend as quickly as possible. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. Perhaps I could rephrase the question. Is it normally the practice for public buildings such as this to be, prior to construction, approved by your department and inspected during the course of construction? MR. PAULLEY: No, Mr. Speaker, it's not normal. It is by request of the municipalities and we do have certain jurisdictions in some municipalities. Upon request, and if memory serves me correctly, Mr.

Speaker, any community of 5, 000 or over must have their own in spection personnel and of course Powerview is not 5, 000 or over, but as I say, Mr. Speaker, I'll be glad to look into the matter. MR. ASPER: To the same Minister, I wonder if he would undertake in view of the near tragic event where the roof collapsed, I wonder if he would undertake to have his department investigate the causes of the problem, the collapse, and report to the public or to this House. MR. PAULLEY: I repeat, Mr. Speaker, I will ask the questions of the department and make a report to the House. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, if the honourable member will permit me, I am now able to answer the question which the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition put, which I suspect ed but I've now confirmed it with the First Minister.

I don't believe the Order-in-Council mentions Misawa Homes but that was for the purchase of a home and the facilities for - or several homes for Iceland, a gift by the Government of Manitoba and Misawa (Japan) Limited and Canada because of what had occurred, the disaster which had occurred in that country, and had nothing to do with Manitoba Development Corporation advances to Misawa Homes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIV AK: I thank the Minister for his explanation.

I wonder if the Minister can in dicate to the House with respect to the policy announcement that he made yesterday, which we've already questioned him on, on what authority, that is under what authority of the Man itoba Development Corporation, the Manitoba Development Corporation Board must seek approval of the Cabinet or its Minister with respect to the extension of a loan or the purchase of equity. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, the guidelines that have been worked out between myself and the board were worked out as a result of the previous situations with respect to the Man itoba Development Corporation, particularly the situation for instance where the Government of Manitoba in 1966 threw down before the Manitoba Development Corporation an agreement requiring the financing of 19.2 millions of dollars and said, "Go ahead and do it." The question

February 14, 197 4 377 ORAL QUE STIONS (MR. GREEN cont'd) .. . has arisen from time to time as to responsibility of the government and responsibility of the Fund; the guidelines that have been worked out with the Board and with myself, representing the government, which have not yet been finalized, have been worked out so that there be an understanding as to the relationship of government with the Manitoba Development Co rporation Board - which by the way, Mr. Speaker, was not in existence during the term of office of the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I wonder then if the Minister could confirm that the guidelines that he's discussing are not in fact contained within the legislation, we're dealing with the Manitoba Development Corporation, are in fact an addition and will require an amend ment to the Act. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I deny, I deny that there is a required change in the Act. The guidelines that we are working out tog ether are guidelines that have been agreed to between the Members of the Manitoba Development Corporation Board and the Minister. They are not legislative, they are a matter of policy. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister can indicate whether there has ever been a case in which the government has directed the Board to loan money, or extend a loan by equity, that the Board itself had not approved. MR . GREE N: Mr. Speaker, this is possible under

Part 2 and has been done, to my knowledge, under the previous administration. I am not able to conf irm every single arrange ment that was made prior to my becoming the Minister to whom the Board reports . I know that in a very recent case the government because the Board is not involved in the supervision of McKenzie Seeds in the same way as it is with other companies under their jurisdiction, accepted responsibility for the Board advancing money to McKenzie Seeds very recently. MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if the Minister would confirm that in that case the Board refused the request for the extension of money. MR.

GREEN : Mr. Speaker, the Board took the position that the responsibility for the advancing of this money should be at the request of the government . It did not refuse, it took the position that I am now stating, and that was clarified with the Board. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (R oblin): Mr. Speaker, I have a question through the medium of the Proclamat ion which has been sent to the Honourable the Premier from the City Clerk, Mr.

Quayle, regarding the Great Hockey Game that's scheduled, and I wonder if the govern,. ment or the Minister has received authority from the Charities Endorsement Bureau regarding the sale of these tick ets. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. Order please. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge the Golden Boys are invited by the City Fathers. MR. McKENZIE: Well, Mr.

Speaker, for clarification, and the question has been raised by that group today through a telephone call from the Charities Endorsement Bureau - can I assume now tl at we pass the ball to the Mayor and the City Coun cil, or is the government going to be .. .. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Tt-e Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation wish to answer? MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, I don't believe it's a question of passing the ball or throw ing it into their court. They have the puck in their court. Trey have invited us and they are taking the initiative . MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

Before we get further involved, let me assure the Assembly that on your betalf, as Speaker, I have accepted the invitation, and there was a letter to the effect asking the members to come; so there is no argu•nent about that --( Inter jection)-- I'll be behind th•3 goal line. Any other questions, The Honourable Member for Hoblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr, Speaker, I have another question for the Honourable the Minister of Tourism and Recreation and Cultural Affairs. I wonder if the government intend to pu rchase tickets on the same formula for this game as they do for the Jets games? MR. TOU PIN: Mr.

Speaker, we'll take it under advisemenL MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry.

378 February 14, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. L. R. SHERMAN (F ort Garry): Mr. Speaker, with reference to the earlier sequence of questions asked, the Minister said that he believes the City now has the puck in their court and I wonder if that can be converted into a touchdown. The question really is - the question is, Sir, whether there is a Civic Charities Endorsement Bureau permit and number issued to the committee convening this game. The tickets have been printed without any such number on them which is in contravention, Sir, of the regulations. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

I fail to see the relevancy of that question to the pro cedures of this House. I believe it belongs to another jurisdiction, which is a municipal jurisdiction. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Well could I ask a different question on the same subject then? MR. SPEAKER: Very well. MR. SHERMAN: Can the Minister advise what committee is arranging - what committee under the Statutes of the City of Winnipeg is arranging for this particular - this charitable hockey game? MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, I don't know.

It's under the authority of City Council and, you know, what measures they have taken I am not aware. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Highways. I will have to preface my question, Mr. Speaker. In view of the position taken by the Provincial Health Ministers at the Federal Conference in respect to mandatory use of seatbelts, will the Minister of Highways be introducing legislation this session for mandatory use of seatbelts? MR. SPEAKER: It's a policy question. MR. PATRICK: Well, Mr.

Speaker, if t1 e Minister wants to answer, I believe it's his prerogative to answer. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. PETER BURTNIAK (Minister of Highways) (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, I would be pleased to answer the honourable member. This I might say has been discussed for quite some time. Just to give, if I may, Mr.

Speaker, give the honourable member a little bit of background on this whole question: he probably is aware that there is such a thing as the West ern Highways Ministers Conference, which we've had the last two years, and also dealing with the minister responsible for the Motor Vehicle Branch Safety in general, a meeting was held last October, I believe, or early November, in Charlottetown and these kind of things were discussed.

It has been presented by the various provinces and discussed to see whether or not this is the kind of thing that the provinces wisl ed to adopt for the safety of the travel ling public and particularly the drivers and also the passengers, and this has been pretty well agreed upon, and I must say to the Honourable Member that I hope to be able to bring something along that regard as far as safety is concerned ... MR. PATRICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Can the Minister advise or tell the members if his department of the Highways Branch has any statistics reflecting the 15 percent reduction in fatal accidents or serious accidents where seat belts are used? MR. BURTNIAK: No, Mr. Speaker, I couldn't say that off the cuff, on top of my head, I don't know, but I would suspect that we have some sort of statistics that may indicate just that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.

Perhaps he may want to refer it to the -I don't see him in the House anywhere- I'll put the question to the First Minister or the Minister of Agriculture who might answer in his place. Does the government support the view of the Canadian Egg Marketing Agency that the price of eggs in this country, and Manitoba included in the statement, is too low and ought to be increased? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, I am not sure what the Honourable Member is alluding to but let me point out to him that we have a National Egg Marketing Board which governs the affairs of the egg producers, and therefore the information that they provide to us is available to himself as well as to myself.

February 14, 1974 379 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. The question is: does the Govern ment of Manitoba support the idea that the price of eggs should be increased as recommended by the Canadian Egg ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The question has already been asked and it's already been answered. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party have a supplementary? MR. ASPER: I have another question to the same Minister, Mr. Speaker.

Does the government support the Sl'.ggestion, or report, of the Chairman, of the Manitoba Milk Board chairman to the effect that, and I'm quoting, "further price adjustments in the price of milk will be necessary." - increa ses in price of milk in Manitoba. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member would recall that about ten days ago, or somewhere thereabouts. There was a report in the media all across Canada, a un animous report on the part of all Ministers of Canada, including the Government of Canada, that we view the situation as requiring an adjustment in the milk price upward. MR. ASPER: Then, Mr.

Speaker, to the same Minister. Is it a statement of his that the government intends to take no steps to prevent that price increase? MR. USKIW: The Milk Control Board of Manitoba has been long in operation and intro duced, I believe, by the Liberal Government of this province many many years ago, and the mode of operation has not changed. They have a responsibility to do two things in particular: satisfy the requirements of the producer as to costs of production and return on investment, and to satisfy the consumer demand as to quantity.

And so if it does require that a price in crease be brought about to satisfy those two demands of the Act, then that will be done so, Mr. Speaker. MR. ASPER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the last part of the question perhaps then can best be answered by the Minister of Labour. In view of the report by the Chairman of the Milk Control Board that rising prices are influenced by "the tight labour situation", I wonder if he plans any activities to help direct the 20, 000 unemployed of Manitoba into relieving that tight labour situation in the milk industry? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR.

PAULLEY: The Minister of Labour constantly is doing whatever he can in order to obtain persons for employment in any industry, be it milk, rum, or anything else. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for SL James. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. Earlier the Speaker indicated guidelines had been worked out with the MDC and I was wondering has the Cabinet or the Minister given any instructions to the MDC Board in regards to the restrictions of loans or the way in which loans may be given? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources. MR.

GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the indications that I made were relative to the statements that I made yesterday. The guidelines generally discuss the relationship that exists between the government and the Development Corporation which is an agency of the Crown for the carrying out of certain functions.

I indicated yesterday certain restrictions, or certain un derstandings that existed, that the Development Corporation would not proceed with a second advance on a single project without first advising the government that it was doing so and obtaining that concurrence, and the reason for that is to make sure that the Development Corporation is - for which the government has to accept responsibility - is not advancing funds for the purpose of merely trying to salvage a previous loan. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, another question to the Minister. In the guidelines are there any restrictions to categories of loans? MR.

GREEN: The general natures of the kinds of activities that can be processed by the Corporation as are now being done, and as have been revealed to the House through the statement and through the appearance before the Chairman of that Commission, are the kinds of things that are discussed. There's no change in that respect. Let me put it that way. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, another question. Are there any restrictions to groups of people or types of business in these guidelines? MR. GREEN: Nothing that is different, Mr. Speaker, to my recollection than has al ready been dealt with by the House. MR. MINAKER: Mr.

Speaker, my last question. Are there any restrictions in the guidelines to specific areas of Manitoba where loans can be granted to businesses?

380 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. GREEN: No, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. February 14, 1974 MR . J. PAUL MARION (St. Boniface): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct my question to the Honourable the Minister of Health and Social Development. Is it a fact that the Dauphin Health Unit has been without the services of a medical director for the past five months? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. SAUL A. MILLER (Minister of Health and Social Development) (Seven Oaks) : Mr. Speaker, I'll have to take that question as notice. And, Mr.

Speaker, while I'm on my feet I wonder if I could answer questions asked by the Leader of the Opposition a few days ago. And this was with regard to the new prescrip tion drug product selection program which came into effect at the end of January. I tried to reply to some of his questions but there were quite a number and I think I took some as notice. The problem which the Leader of the Opposition claimed existed relative to sufficient quantity of interchangeable drugs being supplied by wholesalers and manufacturers to retail pharmacists has been somewhat exaggerated.

I'm advised that sufficient quantities of all drugs listed in the formulary are now available for consumption in this province and my officials are meeting tomorrow with the general management staff on one company which had been criticized, or had been named, because it had not made available in time its products. That meeting will include the company representatives as well as members of the Executive of the Manitoba Pharmaceutical Association, representatives of the drug wholesalers of Manitoba, and members of the Manitoba Drug Standards and Therapeutics Committee.

The Leader also asked the question regarding advance notice to the Pharmaceutical Association. The Association -that's the Pharmaceutical Association - was sent a copy of the formulary September 20 th, 1973, for circulation to its membership. So it's therefore I think safe to assume that they had advance notice.

Furthermore all medical doctors registered with the College of Physicians and Surgeons and all pharmacists registered with the Manitoba Pharmaceutical Association, all dentists registered with the Manitoba Dental Association and all pharmacies in Manitoba, were sent a copy of the final formulary in its printed form, which included the amended Pharmaceutical Act, by first class mail on January 11th, 1974.

And a general letter was dispatched to all pharmacists in the province on January 16th in which 12 specific questions were posed ar1d answered for the information of dispensing pharmacists, and in that letter one of the questions asked and answered was the one that I think was posed by the Leader of the Opposition, if I understood the question correctly, namely that all prescriptions dispensed prior to the date the formulary went into effect are not subject to substitution under the new Act and conse quently all refills of the same prescription made subsequent to January 28th also do not fall into the new statute.

I would like to add, Mr. Speaker, finally that the quantities which are to be purchased in order for pharmacies to meet the prices which are shown in the formulary were arrived at following discussions with the Committee of Pharmacists selected by the Manitoba Pharma ceutical Association; and I think I can give assurances that both quantities and prices listed in the formulary are such that they should pose little problem to any druggist in Manitoba in being able to dispense the products listed in the formulary at the prices shown. MR. MARION: Mr.

Speaker, I can understand that the Minister has taken it under advisement but with your permission might I redirect it then to the former Minister of Health? --(Interjection)--All right. Inasmuch then, Mr. Speaker, as the Minister is taking it under advisement, might I add two questions that he could also take under advisement at the same time? The next one being: is it a fact that the present Minister and his predecessor have been attempting to obtain a replacement for the Dauphin area without any success? Can that be added?

And also are there any other Manitoba centres suffering from the same medical director shortages? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, in direct answer to the first question- I took it as notice. The second one, I can advise the member that I have not been aware of this situation and therefore, I therefore could not have been actively pursuing in any an attempt to fill that position, because I wasn't even aware it was vacant. I'm not also aware of any other positions in a similar category that the honourable member may have knowledge of.

February 14, 1974 381 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. The Honourable Member fo r St. Boniface have one more? MR. MARION: Mr. Speaker, I have a point to make. Inasmuch as we have a copy of correspondence. . . MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR. MARION: My question is to the Minister of Tourism and Recreation. I have a letter stating that he was concerned about the medical shortage in Dauphin. Has he had any indication that this position has been filled? MR. SPEAKER: The question is out of order to that Minister. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BOB.

BANMAN (La Verendrye): I would like to ask a question of which I have given notice to the Honourable Minister of Agriculture. Is the government going into the dead animal rendering business, either pickup or disposal? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, there have been negotiations with a private company, or a number of them, over the last couple of years in that respect and we have I believe, if not completely at least tentatively concluded an agreement to bring about the cleaning up the environment with respect to dead animals in this province. MR.

BANMAN: Will this be a monopoly or will private pickups and rendering still be allowed? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, that is a matter for the private entrepreneur in question. We are not involved in the rendering business in this province as a government. MR. BANMAN: Is the government intending to sign an agreement with any company? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, the negotiations that have been held have been centered on the question of delivery of dead animals to a plant, or plants. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River): Mr.

Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Health and Welfare. When will a health officer be reappointed for Swan River? He tasn't been there now for some six months. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I'll have to take that question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour. Considering that this is St. Valentine's Day and it's a day been chosen to .. . MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR.

AXWORTHY: Is the Minister taking into account the fact that because it is St. Valentine's Day and that this is a day chosen by public -- female public servants to highlight the discriminatory practices of government, is the government immediately considering an end to the practice of rug ranking or the practice, as it's otherwise known, of typing in the position of salary and promotion of female clerical help to the administrative and executive people they work for? Are you considering an end to this practice immediately? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: I must admit, Mr.

Speaker, that that's a relatively hard question to answer, particularly on Sweethearts' Day. I was asked to recommend a holiday for Valentine's Day and made the suggestion that possibly it should be called Sweethearts' Day in recognition of women and their contribution to all of mankind, particularly the Minister of Labour. However, I haven•.t really given much consideration to the point raised by my honourable friend from Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Well a supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

While he's considering that, would the Minister also consider the establishment of guidelines to improve the salary pos ition of the 60 percent of the female employees of this government who are in the lowest echelons of the public service? MR. PAULLEY: I don't know where my honourable friend has been over the number of years, possibly in the wilderness, but surely he is aware of the fact that we have a collective agreement entered into between the representatives of the employees and the government, and I hope to be able to sign that agreement next Wednesday which establishes the wage rates as negotiated.

382 February 14, 197 4 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. Last supplementary. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, that really wasn't an answer to the question. I'm saying, is the government intending to take any special action to redress the present inequities MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The honourable member is arguing the question. He's also repeating it in another form. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development for . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR.

SPIVAK: My question is to the Minister of Health and Social Development. I thank him for the answer in connection with the drug substitution program.

I wonder in connection with that whether he will indicate whether the situation now exists under the law, that if a person goes with a prescription, a new prescription, unknown prescription, a new prescription to the druggist which is in the category of those to be substituted, and the pres cription does not provide that no substitution can take place, can he pay the difference - is he allowed the freedom to be able to buy the drug that is prescribed or will the druggist be under a legal obligation to provide him the drug substitute, and will it be against the law for the druggist to provide him the drug that was specified by the physician?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, that's an interesting point. I'll have to take that as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture. Could he indicate to us how much longer we have to wait for the report of the committee that he established last year dealing with the problems of fertilizer, supplies and price, etc. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Not very much longer, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Highways in his cap acity as Minister responsible for the Motor Vehicle Branch. Can the Mk:1ister assure oper ators of private driver training schools in the province that they will have the opportunity to participate in any program of compulsory driver training to be introduced? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. MR . BURTNIAK: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure whether definitely it is a case where we are prepared to definitely introduce compulsory driving testing.

Once that is resolved, then we have to lookatthe problem. MR. SHERMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, can the Minister - a supplementary- Can the Minister assure the House and the operators referred to then that the look that's being taken at such a program is not at this time being confined to a program that would be government run exclusively? MR. BURTNIAK: I would say yes to that question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Health.

In view of the fact that at least two health units in Manitoba, Dauphin and Swan River, do not have a health officer, could he indicate whether the government has any program of incentives to encourage graduating doc tors to locate in rural or less settled communi ties ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, there is a program there has been for some years, of an incentive grant to doctors who would like to set up practice outside of the City of Winnipeg or in rural isolated communities.

There's also a program of bursary assistance whereby the students on graduation can, instead of repaying the amount advanced, which is substantial, by serving in an area outside of city that is approved by the Minister will have loan forgiveness made for every month they spend in practice in that area. MR. ASPER: To the same Minister, in view of the acknowledged difficulty in general in Manitoba rural communities as stated in Guidelines for the 19 70s of attracting or main taining doctors ...

February 14, 197 4 ORA L QUE STIONS MR. SPEAKER: Question please. 383 MR. ASPER: Well, I'm stating the question, Sir - maintaining doctors in those rural communities, does the Health Minister consider that further incentives or increased program ming to achieve this result will be necessa ry from his department? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, this is not a new problem; it's a problem to which we are addressing ourselves to; we have acknowledged the problem exists, and certainly we'll do ev erything possible to make sure that the supply of doctors is more equitably dis tributed across Manitoba. MR. ASPER: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, a final supplementary. In view of the- to the same Minister. In view of the fact that a very significant number of doctors graduating fro m the medical school are not staying in Manitoba, could he indicate of the approximately 1, 000 doctors, foreign doctors, who come to Canada each year, what percentage are coming to Manitoba ? MR. MILLER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I wouldn't have the figures on the immigration on the total immigration. I do know that the number that are remaining, Manitoba graduates that are remaining in Manitoba, is growing and we hope it will continue to do so. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liber Party. Oh, I'm sorry, the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I'm not that unlucky. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Consumer Affairs. I wonder if he can indicate whether a study was completed by his department as indicated on May 2nd of last year, dealing with pricing in the communit ies in northern Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs. HON . IAN TURNBULL (Minister of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services) (Os borne): Mr.

Speaker, the department in co-operation with other agencies of the Provincial Government, other departments of the Provincial Government, is continually monitoring prices in Manitoba. It's monitoring, Sir, by way of checking for specific purpose .... MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, this was a specific study to be undertaken to determine whether in fact there are any sav ings to the remote communities in northern Manitoba as a result of the government programs.

I wonder if the Minister is in a position to confirm that such a study was undertaken and that it's completed and there is information on last year, or whether in fact that study was never undertaken. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, I will take as notice the question as to whether or not my department was involved in such a study. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr. Speaker, I regret I haven't informed the Attorney-General of the question I'm going to ask. However, it seems important to me. I'd like to ask him, Mr.

Speaker: has the government withdrawn financial support to the Provincial Police Training Academy ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON . HOWARD PAWLEY (Attorney-General) (Selkirk): There has been no change in policy in any respect pertaining to Police Training Aca demy. MR. BILTON: A supplementary. I wonder if the Minister in considering that question later on could advi se me as to whether or not the government intends to assist the academy toward training rural constables. MR. PA WLEY: Mr.

Speaker, there is a study presently under way analyzing that entire area of problems, the training of rural constables as to what input or direction the government ought to proceed, and the Manitoba Police Commission is a participant in that study at the present time. MR. BIL TON: I wonder if the Minister in his wisdom is considering the facilities of the RCMP in Regina for this particular purpose in the public interest of saving money. MR. PA WLEY: Well, it'll be only part of a general overall evaluation as to the proper direction to proceed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE : Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources and Environmental Management. I wonder if the Honourable Minister or his department has been alerted to the reported serious shortage of food and habitat for

384 February 14, 1974 ORAL QUE STIONS (MR. McKENZIE cont'd) •.. wildlife in the Duck Mountains area of the province. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'll take the question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister.

Considering that he is the Minister responsible for Hydro and for urban affairs, and considering that he has told this House that we can expect a surplus of electrical power in the province, would he or the government consider proposing to the City of Winnipeg jointly looking at the feasibility of undertaking electrified public transit in the City of Winnipeg? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Mr. Spea�er, that is an excellent suggestion and one which has been posed to representatives of the city repeated ly over some period of time.

I believe that there is a reciprocal interest on the part of doing just that on the part of certain of the city leaders and we expect that this will bear results. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, being more specific, would the Minister and the government consider supporting a trial experiment in electrified public transit on the CNR railway between Fort Garry and the downtown as that space has now been made available for mass transit purposes by the CNR. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, that too is an excellent suggestion and it has already been put forward by way of suggestion to the City Fathers. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. MARION: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Honourable the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Development Corporation. Can the Minister confirm the bankruptcy of St. Jean Sportswear Incorporated in St. Jean Baptiste ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I would say that that's - and I'm taking a chance now, and I'll be very conservative - at least a year ago, and I think much more than that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the same Minister.

If the answer he's just given is correct, will he please explain to this House why the financial statement of the Manitoba Development Corporation a year ago does not reflect that situation? MR. GRE EN: Mr.

Speaker, I believe that the corporation was put into receiversh ip and if it was in receiv ership there could be a question, a technical question, as to whether it has gone into bankruptcy by either making an assignment or taken into bankruptcy by its cred itors, but I believe that the facts of it not operating as a concern but being in the process of either being liquidated by its creditors or received by its creditors is over a year old. As to why it doesn't appear on the particular statement - well, Mr.

Speaker, I indicated that I am taking a chance as to dates; secondly, the statement, as the honourable member knows, is a statement which reflects a date which precedes the date on which the statement is issued. But I don't. .. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I tried to answer my honourable friend that I believe that it' s at least a year ago that the state of that corporation not operating as a solvent organiza tion was at least a year ago. MR. ASPER: Well, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister.

The statement of the Manitoba Deve lopment Corporation of March 31, 1973 - March 31, 1973, does not reflect even a reserve for potential loss. Can he explain that, when if he is correct in saying that over a year ago the fact was that the company was broke? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The Honourable Member is arguing the question. The Honourable Minister. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, the fact- you know, there are many explanations to the honourable member's question, which I am sure he is well aware, and I am not able to give him the precise details at this point, but trere might not be a loss because it has been taken into receiversh ip. And I'm not saying that there isn't a loss, but the fact that an organization has been taken into receivership by a debenture holder does not mean that there is a loss, and the honourable member knows that -- (Interjection)--. Well, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member knows that if you are secured and you have to ...

February 14, 1974 385 ORAL QUE STIONS MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please. Let me indicate .. .. order, please. Let me indicate the question period is not an argumentative or debating time and all members should be aware of that, those who are asking the questions and those who are answering; and I do believe that the members who make statements from their seats after they'v e been given the privilege of asking a question ar e being unfair. The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I propose to proceed with condolence motion, so if the Lea der of the Liberal Party has questions I'l l defer. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, it's my final supplementary, but I would preface it in the light of your ruling or your comment, that that ruling should apply to both sides of the House, and Pm sure you meant it that way. MR. SPEAKER: I indicated for all sides. MR. ASPER: Thank you, Mr . Speaker.

Is it not sound accounting principle as practiced by the Manitoba Deve lopment Corporation that at the end of a year it reports in its statement its investments and those which at the date of issue of that statement it knows should be reser ved for loss agains t. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I believe that that is the fact. I believe that that is the fact . The previous question that the honourable member asked was: if the organization was in receiver ship a year ago, why is there not a loss reflected on the stateme nt?

I indicated that because an asset has been taken into receivership does not neces sarily mean that there has to be an allowance made for a loss, and the honourable member knows that. Now, I --(In terjection)-- well, Mr. Speaker, if you receive an asset that is worth a million dollars and your debenture is for $500, 000, then you would be misleading if you showed a loss on that asset. Now, I'm not saying that that is the case for St.

Jean's Sportswear, and I am sure that the particulars with regards to what my honourable friend wishes will be available to him when the chairman of the corportion appears before committee. In the meantime, the answer to the question which I intended to give to the Honourable M ember for St. Boniface was that St. Jean Sportswear has been in a position of receiversh ip - he described it as bank ruptcy, Pm not sure that that is the case - for some period of time. If I am wrong as to the dates I apologize profusely to my honourable friend. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable First Minister.

ORDERS OF THE DAY - MOTIONS OF CO NDO LENCES MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, we now come to a point in this Chamber's deliberation where we pause to recall to memory those who have served in former times in this Ass embly and who have passed on, pas sed away since the last session. For all I know this long standing custom and practice of this Asse mbly which I unders tand is unique to this Ass embly, has prob ably existed as a practice since its inception as a Legislature. Today, I would like to refer in the first instance to the late Honourable Member, J. C.

Donaldson, or Cam Donaldson as he was known to those in the Brandon area, and all those of course who knew him well. As sometimes is the case there are previous members of this Asse mbly who served here so many years ago that they may not be known, have been known in a personal way by anyone in this Chamber. In the case of the late Mr. Donaldson I suspect that he was known personally by a number of honourable members opposite and per haps my colleague the Honourable Minister of Labour.

Pm not in a position, Sir, to relate to honourable members in any intimate way therefore anything of the early life history and life background of the late Cam Donaldson, other than to say that he was one who was the son of very early pioneer residents of the Brandon and southwestern Manitoba region of the province, and in his earlier years he worked in the meat packing business, I would assume as an apprentice or journeyman or helper, progressing over the years to positions of higher responsibility, both with companies local to the scene here, in the United States, returning back to Brandon right in the midst of the terrible depression years which left such a scar on so many peoples' memories.

Having returned in the depres sion years he did take the initiat ive to enter into business and I am told was very much involved with innovation, bringing innovation to the meat packing industry even those days including specifically, the bringing of innovation to packing and presenting of packages of meat in a way that is attractive to con sumers, something that is very much a part of our life these days.

386 February 14, 1974 MOTIONS OF CONDOLE NCES (MR. SCHREYER cont'

d) He certainly also was one active in his community having been a past president of the Royal Manitoba Winter Fair, active in the early days of the 4H movement, and was also a renowned exhibitor of purebred cattle and horses. He is survived by three daughters and three grandchildren. Accordingly, Sir, I move, seconded by the lhnourable the Member for B randon West, that this House convey to the family of the late Jospeh C.

Donaldson, wro served as a member of the Legislative Ass embly of Manitoba its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service, and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this res olution to the family. Motion presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, the late Mr. J. C. Donaldson was a big man, not only in physique but in terms of his contribution to the province and to his community, his birthplace the City of Brandon.

Those who knew him, as I was privileged to do, will recall him as a jovial hearty person and he had indeed a deep and abiding interest in the growth of the Brandon district community and in making a major contribution to that end. The First Minister has mentioned his principal contribution that of the developing and founding the meat packing business in the Brandon area, an industry that continues to grow, and also to his contribution to the Manitoba Winter Fair, now the Royal Manitoba Winter Fair. He was also active in the Manitoba Provincial Exhibition during his active years in Brandon.

He was also one who took a principal

part in the creation of an industrial commis sion in the Brandon area. Cam Donaldson was active in almost every walk of life, and it might be an insight into his character to recall that back in 1909 as a young man of 18 or 19 years of age, he won a competition in the Brandon Fire Department called the Ladder and Hose Competition, and was awarded a medal for being the man who could climb to the top of the ladder at the greatest speed. It was shortly thereafter that a fire occurred in Brandon to the P •. E.

McKenzie Seed Plant and during the height of that blaze the senior member of the Donaldson family, his father, happened to come by and noticed young Cam at the top of the ladder with the hose in a very dangerous position. The next day Cam Donaldson was separated from the Brandon Fire Department by parental edict at a time when parents had a little more control than they have now, so perhaps a promising career as a fireman was nipped in the bud. Cam Donaldson made a great contribution to Brandon.

While his term in the Legislature was relative ly short, his active years in his community were long and very productive. Mr. Speaker, it is an honour to join with the First Minister in a mess age of condolence from this House to the members of his family. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Party wishes to record its endorsement and its association with the First Minister's resolution. I knew Cam Donaldson; I come from the same part of the country and grew up in western Manitoba.

Remembering him - of course I was a small boy, but I certainly remember him as the Honourable Member from Brandon descr ibes him. He was a very colorful man, extremely colorful, and when they convinced him to enter public life in 1949 I remember, being in high school at the time, being very amazed that he had been persuaded to give up a very active community involvement to enter public life, and it was some disa ppointment to all of us from that part of Manitoba when two years later over a principle he decided to retire from public life.

He was a very colorful man both in his community, as well as when he was in the Legislature and even in the very, very historically interesting dispute that followed the years after he left the Legislature when there was a Royal Commission and a number of things involving the whole meat packing issue out in western Manitoba. I don't know if anybody said it, but as I say, I remember studying in Brandon at the Univers ity, what is now the University of Brandon, for a few years and seeing this tall giant of a man all the time, and he kept us all in awe. I unders tand he did that in. this Chamber too, Mr. Speaker.

So for a man who led an exemplary economic, social, and cultural life,

February 14, 1974 387 MOTIONS OF CONDO LEN CES (MR. ASPER cont'd) .. . and a man who did spend some time in public life, it's with no hes itation that we on the Liberal side of this House join the First Minister in his motion of con dolence to the family. MR. SPEAKER: In acce pting and agreeing to the motion of condolence would the Hon- ourable Members please rise for a moment of silence. Motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I now refer honourable members to the life and work in this Chamber of the late George William Johnson who was a member in this Asse mbly between May of 1959 and December of 1962. He represented the area known as As siniboia at that time and still known by that name in this House today. He represented the Progressive Conservative Party, and like the late Cam Donaldson, we have just spoken of, the late George William Johnson also was one whose early life, earlier years that is, was involved with that of local business and industry.

It is my unders tanding that in his younger years he was in volved with a neighbourhood grocery business and eventually working his way by promotion and industry to a position of more senior responsibility with one of the larger Canadian gro cery companies. He retired in 1959 and presumably moved directly into a career of interest and activity in politics on behalf of the residents of his area. He too was active in his community in amateur sport promotion and in volunteer effort involving the Masonic Lodge, in which he was a member, and his church.

I of course do recall the late George William Johnson personally, having sat here for the three or four years that he was an MLA and one characteristic of him that I remember quite well, Sir, is that he was one who didn't necessa rily intervene in debate in the sense of going on the attack , but certa inly he was one who could work up genuine righteous indignation in defense of a cause and of a given course of action. In that respect, if I might be permitted a personal observation, I would think that he and I share a common trait, indigation in defense of something he believes in.

Certainly we can all agree that his life of service to the com munity, and for that we all wish to remember him. Accordingly, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Member for Assiniboia, that this House convey to the family of the late George William Johnson who served as a member of the Legislative Ass embly of Manitoba its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service, and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. Motion presented. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRIC K: Mr. Speaker, I thank the First Minister for giving me the opportunity to second this condolence motion. I also wish to speak on behalf of our group, on behalf of the Liberal Party, on this motion. Mr. Speaker, it was my pleasure to know the late Mr. Johnson on a personal basis. He was a neighbour of mine for several years and I have always admired this gentleman. I got to know him much better after the 1962 election because it was in that election that I did win the election from the late Mr.

Johnson and after that time we became much better friends on .many social occasions or certain functions that we used to meet, and he wouldn't waste any time walking across the floor and sit at our table, which is sometimes unusual to politicians of different political affiliations sitting at the same table at a large function, and this is the kind of qualities that the late Mr. Johnson had. His record is certainly a remar kable one in this province, Mr. Speaker. He served as an MLA; he served on the City Council of St. Jam es; he also served on the St.

James School Board for some 20 years and I believe this is a record - it must be. He was very active in the Chamber of Commerce work, and he was also very active in amateur sports, particularly in hockey, for many years in the St. James area. So, Mr. Speaker, I wish to second this motion and asso ciate our group with this condol ence motion, and that it be sent to the members of his family. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, it's a privilege to speak on behalf of the Conservative Party for George Johnson. I grew up in St.

James-As siniboia and our family, my brother and sister aged with Mr. Johnson's daughters, went to school with them and their parents, Mr. and Mrs. Johnson and my parents were quite close friends, and

388 February 14, 1974 MOTIONS OF CONDO LENCE S (MR. J OHNSTON cont'd) ... . it was not uncommon to hear his name many times around our home. But, Sir, it also was not uncommon for any young boy growing up in St. James, or girl, to hear the name George Johnson. As the Premier has mentioned and the Member for Ass iniboia has mentioned, he was very active in sporting activities and you couldn't attend any community club without sometimes seeing him there and certainly you knew he was very responsible for many of the activities that went on as far as sports were concerned in St. James-A ssiniboia.

As I grew up and became part of the St. James Council I realized that Mr. Johnson was always - was part of the St. James Council which brought the City of St. James to the standard that it did become, and he was one of those members of the Council at that time that was res ponsible for the policies that were put forth to help that city so much. Mr. Johnson on the school board was also one of the members of the school board that started the education policy of St. James-Assiniboia. He had a very sound thinking, as the Premier has mentioned.

He certainly worked very hard in every facet of the community and he is well remembered by the whole community of people who have lived there a long time, and it is my pleasure to associate our party with the motion, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: In accepting and agreeing to the motion of condolence would the Honourable Members please rise for a moment's silence. Motion carried .. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the third of the condolence motions which we have agreed to speak to today, is with respect to the memory of the late Dr. W. G.

Martin who passed away two months ago at the grand old age of 87. Dr. Martin's life and career - it would be no exaggeration to say must surely have been very active and very interesting, and in some ways I believe unique in that he served for eight years as a member of the Legislative Ass embly of the Province of Ontario, and then quite some considerable numbers of years later he served in tlis Chamber, also for eight years, retiring in 1966 .

So in his sixteen years of service as a legislator, in one sister province and here, he must have no doubt bad to re late his thinking and his values and his desire to cope with human problems to a large number of bills of law, proposed bills of law, and resolutions, and the like. He came to Canada as a relativ ely young man of 26 , from England in the year 1910. He was educated in a number of various Methodist schools and colleges and won a gold medal in oratory, at or near the time of his graduation.

He served here in Winnipeg as Minister to Grace United Church from 1936 to 1955, and then in somewhat later years served in an ancillary capacity at St. Stephens Broadway in a supporting role. When I said earlier, Sir, that he surely must have led an interesting and active life, one need only note for example that among other things, among other things I have already mentioned, he served as historian and observer for the Canadian Government Ea stern Arctic Expedition. In 1939 he was requested to make a tour of the entire British Empire at that time by air.

One need only let his mind drift back to those days of yesteryear when a world tour by aircraft of those days must indeed have been adventuresome indeed. In addition to all that, and I have already indicated he served in the Asse mbly of Ontario and for a period of some years served as Minister of Public Welfare including, I should think a very trying period for any Minister of Welfare, the early 1930's. In 1958 he was elec ted here to this Chamber and acted for some period of time as Deputy Speaker of this House. He too was active in the Masonic Order and the volunteer effort that is associated with that order.

I can say, Sir, that having known him personally over a period of eight years and more that I do indeed regard him as having been a very fine gentleman indeed, a gentleman which some might describe as a man of great Victorian virtue but which I think could properly be said as well, a man of virtue, the kind of virtue that is essentially eternal, or so we hope. I consider myself fortunate to have known him as well as I did . Sir, I would like to move, seconded by the Honourable the Member for St.

Matthews, that this House convey to the family of the late William George Martin, who served as a Member of the Legislative Ass embly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family.

February 14, 19 74 389 MOTIONS OF CO NDO LENCES MO TION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Matthews. MR. WALLY J OHANNSON (St. Matthews): Thank you, Mr . Speaker. It is an honour for me to second this condolence motion. Dr. Martin was of course the first member, the first MLA for St. Matthews which was created as a separate constituency in 1957 . He served three successive terms up till 1966 when he retired. He began serving at an age when most of us will probably have departed this mortal sphere and served it well. I never had the opportunity to meet Dr.

Martin; I became active in politics in St. Matthews after he had re tired and I only got an opportunity to meet his successor. I would imagine that several mem bers of the Legislature, including the Minister of Labour and opposition members knew him very well. He had a very long record of public service. He was active as Chairman of the Mani toba Division and Nat ional Vice- President of the Save the Children Fund. He, as the First Minister mentioned, served in the Ontario Legislature in the '20s and early '3 0s before serving in the Manitoba Legislature. So his connection with Canadian history is a long one.

He came out of the background of the United Church of Canada which has produced a large number of outstanding Canadians, including some of the finest leaders of our movement. So in conclusion I would like to extend my condolences to his family and my tribute to his long record of fine public service to this province. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, it is with a mixture of regret and pride that I rise on the m(ltion of condolence introduced by the Premier and seconded by the Honourable Member from St. Ma tthews. We regret because on the death of Dr.

Martin there has passed from amongst us a generous and noble human being, whose life was an inspiration and whose presence was a source of joy to so many. Mr. Speaker, I say pride because I had the privilege enjoyed by many in this House and in public life, and by countless thousands in a large community of which we are a part, of knowing him as a respected public figure, a distinguished churchman, and a tireless humanitarian. Dr. Martin was one of the most prominent and active churchmen of his generation.

As the Free Press commented editorially after his death in December, he was perhaps the last of the great popular preachers in this city. And beyond question his name and his fame as a clergyman extended far beyond the congregation of Grace United Church, for which he was for so many years pastor. Now as a humanitarian he worked tirelessly and with international recognition in the interests of children. He was the first Manitoba Chairman of the Canadian Save the Children Fund, and he was honoured for his work by the International Union for Child Welfare in Geneva.

To the members of this community and to several others in Ontario and Alberta Dr. Mar tin's memory will long be enshrined for these pas toral and humanitarian works and that is no less true here. But in this Chamber, Mr. Speaker, and I daresay in Queen's Park, he will be especially remembered for his public service. As the Premier has already indicated he was one of the very select company that have served in the Legislature of two provinces, those of Ontario and in Manitoba. Now the even more select company to serve in both with distinction. Mr.

Speaker, he was a Progressive conservative, and I use that characterizat ion in no-party sense, and forty years ago he became the first man in Ontario and indeed in Canada to serve the Crown as a Minister of Welfare, and at a time when so many men are passing the age of retirement Dr. Martin then embarked on a second political career in Manitoba representing St. Matt hews, and that' s already been pointed out, in this House for eight years and for six of those as Deputy Speaker of this House. Unlike a number of members here today, I did not have the fortune to serve in this place while Dr. Martin was a member.

But I am happy that shared political attitudes provided me with opportunities to come to know him, and to know and appreciate his great qualities. Dr. Martin died in the 88th year of his life. He died as the Bible says in a good old age full of days' riches and honour. I visi ted Dr. Martin a week before his death. I saw him in the hospital and I must say that he exhibited the quality and the characteristic then as he had for all the time that I knew him, and I•m sure for all the time that all those in this

390 February 14, 1974 MOTIONS OF CONDOLENCES (MR. SPIVAK Cont'd) ..... Chamber knew him, of that zest for life and that twinkle and sparkle in his eye and his interest and concern for others. This province can rejoice at his having lived with us and at his having shared his gifts with us. This House may rejoice in the memory of a man who brought humour, compassion arid honour to its councils. I join with the Premier and the other members of the Progressive Conservative caucus, and all the honourable members of this House in expressing our sincere condolence to the family of the late Dr. W. G. Martin. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Praire. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I rise to associate the Liberal group with the message of condolence to the family of the late Dr. William George Martin. I was fortunate enough to have sat in this House for, I believe, four years with the late Dr. Martin and I think he was one of the most popular members in the House. He never . had any unkind criticisms to make like some of us do sometimes.

He was actually a very gentle person, and I know on one occasion when members of the House were facing a vote - I believe it was to do with opening up Sunday activities more than they had in the past - I was first surprised and then made to feel very humble when I came up behind Dr. Martin in the Members' Lounge and he was praying for guidance. Perhaps something like that might teach some of our more aggressive members of which perhaps I am one, a bit of a lesson.

In any case I say that I was very proud to have known this man and I think he was able to teach me a little, although I was not that close to him, and I appreciated the opportunity and the honour to have sat with Dr. Martin. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR (Virden): Mr. Speaker, I would like to add my support to this condolence motion. I sat with the late Dr. Martin in this Chamber and his booming voice here needed no loudspeaker system. I served with Dr. Martin in the Masonic Order of Free Masonry, and also as a fellow noble in Khartum Temple of the Shrine.

His tremendous voice will be greatly missed at Shrine ceremonials and society generally. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, the words that have been said today impel me to rise at this time in that it was my privilege too, Sir, to sit with Dr. Martin in this House and I remember as a tenderfoot, insofar as politics are concerned, it was my privilege to go to him from time to time for guidance and was the cause, I feel now in saying, preventing me from making some errors that we see from time to time these days.

Sir, I couldn't help but rise at this time and remind the House that Dr. Martin's r·espect for the Chair and traditions and the tapestries of this Chamber were at all times paramount. He believed, Sir, to the utmost and defended our democratic principles of our parliamentary system, and those of us that are here now, and those that may follow in the future, I would hope would defend those principles as he did for so long. And finally, Mr. Speaker, I would say that this Chamber is the better for him having passed this way. MR.

SPEAKER: In accepting and agreeing with the motion of condolence would the honourable members please rise for a moment of silence. MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I would merely like to indicate to honourable members that the two condolence motions relating to the late George Olive and the late Mr. Pratt will be dealt with.tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I was going to ask you to now proceed with second reading of government bilis which have already been introduced and which are held-for adjournment.

Before the Leader of the Liberal Party leaves, Mr. Speaker, I just want to apologize to the House that it apparently is my oversight that the St. Jean's Sportswear Limited is con tained in the 1973 statement under "L oans and Equity Investments in Receivership" with an allowance for estimated losses. So I apologize for not noting that the honourable member was telling me that it was in there and it was not correct. It is in the statement. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party.

February 1 4, 1974 MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I don't think it' s appropriate that I deal with what the Minister has said now. I'll leave it until tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. SECO ND READING - GOVERNM ENT BILLS MR. GRE EN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like you then to call Bill No. 6, etc. Excuse me. Bill No. 2, and down the line, and then Bill No. 6. MR. SPEAKER: Very well. BILL NO. 2 MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs, the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the indulgence of the House to have this bill stand . MR. SPEAKER: Agreed ? (Agreed) On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs, Bill No. 3. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. BILL NO. 3 MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. S peaker, I listened with interest to the Minister's remarks on Bill No . 3 yesterday and I would like to say that the general sections of the bill from the first part on are certainly to our agreeme nt.

In fact it's a desirable thing and was rec ommended by the Municipal Committee that met after our tours and visits to many of the local government districts. In fact it is a mandatory - it will be mandatory for the administrator or the committee to hold meetings regularly as many councils are required to do in other areas of the province, showing the financial statements and the status generally of the area to the people who are living in the area and the wards of the area. Mr.

Speaker, the main part of this bill though, I think the one that we have to be very concerned with, is the granting of the Lieutenant�Governor-in-Council, the Minister through Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council, to have sort of a carte blanchem ove ast owhowill have authority within these communities, within the local government districts.

I know as my colleague mentioned yesterday there have been problems in the local government district areas with the idea that the administrator is the man who is God and whatever he says will go, will have to be done, and that the people in their areas do not have control over their own destiny. These problems were there and are there today some of them, but they have been improving; in many areas committees have been brought forward; and in many areas the committees are functioning very well with the administrator.

I believe that it's not impossible to have the committee making the decisions and the administrator there as a manager to ca rry out these decisions, but I also don' t really believe that the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council to the Minister just would be able to make the decisions as to what power the committees have and what power the administrators have. I would like to see, Mr.

Speaker, and I think it's only fair to those people that we take a closer look at the bill from this point of view, and nobody knows better than I that there are problems here, but people do have the right to know their rules and their regulations from the Legislature at any one time. I think that they can expect that they have a bill to work under and that they have to work to the rules, if you want to call them, of that bill that is passed. If they are not in agreement with them, they certainly make presentation as we get presentation on many bills that we have in operation at the time.

And I know the feelings of the people in the Local Government Districts but I also believe it's fair to them to know where they stand at all times instead of it being changed at any time by O rder-in-Council, in other words in Cabinet, without even being discussed by the Legislature. Really, Mr. Speaker, I would hope that when we get to Law Amendments that we can have a much further discussion on this.

I would like to think that we might as a group come up with something a little more positive for those people other than the decision being made as to what powers they will have and what powers somebody else will have, by the

392 February 14, 197 4 BILL NO. 3 (MR. F. JOHNSTON Cont'd) ..... Minister in Order-in-Council. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr.

Speaker, I rise on this occasion to give support to Bill 3 on second reading, and may I also say that I had the opportunity to serve on the Municipal Committee when we travelled through northern Manitoba, and I am sure that wh:at .came through clear to most of the members of that committee, that where the administrator had called meetings in every ward in a certain LGD it seems the people were much better informed and were quite satisfied to some extent with their administration, but what happened in most LGD areas this has not been the case, that in some wards there has never been any meetings by the officers with the exception of the election of a member to that particular ward.

I know the Minister introducing this bill on second reading stated that this is almost the same, what the committee recommended in its report, and he's correct, and I feel that one of the principles involved, it now makes it mandatory or asks the. administrator to hold a meeting in every ward so that the people can be informed, not only of the statements, financial statements and expenditures, what has happened in any particular ward in that local district, and this is what the people, that most of them are concerned, that this has not been taking place, and I understand in this bill that the Minister is making it mandatory that an administrator does this and does hold a meeting once a year, or at least once a year in every ward, and if this is the case, I think this will certainly improve to a great extent what has been the practice before.

But, Mr.

Speaker, the question that I would like to ask the Minister at this time, there was some concern that most of these members of the advisory council had no power - no authority as such - and they were asking for some power so they can levy some small -- make some small levies, for instance in case of emergencies for a bridge or a culvert or in case of a heavy rain that they would need a couple of truck loads of gravel for a certain road that a school bus can get through in certain LGDs, and I wonder if the Minister has made it available, and to what I see I don't think it's available in this bill but perhaps this is something that he has given some consideration that some of these advisory members, have they got any power within this bill to make any levies?

Ttis is the question I would like to pose to the Minister. Aside from that, Mr.

Speaker, one of the principles involved, I think it's very important and I certainly agree that a meeting will be called of the electors of the Local Government District and that everything will be discussed, the revenue, the expenditures and the ledger balances, and this is the kind of information that the people are asking for when we held our meetings and I agree that it should be the right of the people in that local district, the right to see the government or the expenditures, and it certainly is a public concern and they have the right to discuss these matters and I think it's a great improvement to what we had before.

So I certainly concur with this bill, but I do hope the Minister will answer my question in respect: have they gut any power to make any levies? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. James. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Gladstone, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Proposed motion, Bill 4. The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. FRANK JOHNSTON: May I ask the indulgence of the House to have this bill stand? (Agreed) MR.

SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs, Bill No. 5. The Honourable Member for Birtle- Russell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Russell): Mr. Speaker I would ask the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand. (Agreed) MR. SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation, Bill No. 14. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. MCKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, I rise today in support of most of the concept of this Bill No. 14, which removes some of the problems which the Classification Board has experienced in its first year of operation and some of the housecleaning problems that are mentioned in the bill. There is one

section of the bill that I will be asked several questions in when we arrive at Committee, but Mr. Speaker, we are prepared to move the bill along today and support the concept.

February 14 , 1974 393 BILL NO. 14 QUESTION put. MOTI ON carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 6. The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. BILL NO . 6 MR. PAWLEY presented Bill No. 6,

an Act to amend the Surrogate Court Act, for second readi ng. MR. SP EAKER presented the motion, MR. P.�WLEY: Mr. Speaker, this bill comes about as a re sult of communication with the judges of the county courts of the province in respect to the need for some changes in the County Court Act. The changes are really ones which are pretty self-obvious, particularly in view of the ap}•Ointment in the province of Ma nitoba of a Chief County Court judge. This took place only this past year. As a re sult of the appointment of a Chief County Court judge, there are some obvious by -products of such an office.

One is included in the bill to the effect that the Chief County Court judge is to be a judge of all Surrogate Courts of the province. Another change allows the Surrogate Court judge from the Eas tern Judicial District to sit in any judicial district on being requested by the Chief County Court judge - a very self-vbvious change. Strangely enough, it isn't the case at the present time, and a Surrogate Court judge can only serve in that district in which he presides. Here the Chief County Court judge can request a Surrogate Court judge from the Eas tern District to sit in any judicial district of the province.

There have been some inconveniences caused over the last little while because this provision has not been included in the present Act and this will assis t in rectifying the situation.

For example, in the northern judicial district it's been particulary a problem because of the heavy involvement by County Court Ju dge Terg in his heavy involvement in respect to, for instance the CFI Mechanics Liens Actions which involved him very heavily and thus has made it diffi cult to have matters dealt during that period of heavy involvement by a judge in one field to be able to deal in another area, Furthermore, the Queen' s Bench Act prese ntly relates to constitutional questions which requires notice to be given to the Attorney-General of Ca nada from the Attorney-General of Ma nitoba with the constitutional validity of any provision of any Act that is brought into question.

It gives the Attorney-G eneral of Canada and the Attorney-G eneral of Ma nitoba the right to be heard. Furthermore, there is a small technical change in respect to the County Court of St. Boniface relating to a specific area, but that is only purely a tidying up amendment in the bill. That in general , Mr. Speaker , covers the main provisions of this bill. . . . continued on next page.

394 BILL N0.6 February 14, 1974 MR. SP EAKER : The H onourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR . GRAHAM: Mr. Speaker , I want to thank the Attorney-G eneral for the comments he has made and the reasons that he has given for opening up the Surrogate Court legislation.

Quite often we find that affairs of the deceased become drawn out and lengthy, and those estates and the beneficiaries of the estates become somewhat confused and frustrated , I am sure, on many occasions when they find that they have , especia lly in contested cas es, where it may take months and in some ca ses even years to get affairs finally completed. So any action that can be taken by government to speed up and make even by , for instance, the

section that the Minister mentioned, where he can now move a judge from one jurisdiction to another to hear Surrogate action, I am sure will assist and make court more readily av ailable to those that want to use it. But when the Minister opens up this particular act, Mr. Speaker , I notice some other facets in that Act that he has not made any reference to, and I just wonder whether at this time maybe we should take a look at some other things that in my opinion, and I'm not a legal man at all, Mr.

Speaker , but I think there are some things that we could quite conceivably look at even to a greater degree facilitating actions in respect to the affairs of deceased people. One of the things that I was somew hat intrigued by when looking at the Act was the fact that the salaries paid to the judges were last set in 1963 and they haven't been changed since. Now I realize that the salary of a County Court judge has been changed , but a Surrogate Court judge , his salary is very minor; it's just an additional fee, really, but under the existing legis lation - I can't name the

section - but the Minister of Finance shall pay each judge annually the sum of $2, 500. 00, and that was in 1963. We know the esca lating costs that have occurred since that time and, while I am not making an issue of it , I think that I should point out to the Minister that when we are opening up the Act maybe we should take a look at making a change in this, either tying it in to the County Court judge increments that he receives; whenever he gets a raise under the County Court judge, maybe we should have a corresponding proportional in crease in the Surrogate Court.

That's just a sug gestion to the Minister , it's an idea that I think the Minister would entertain, and I'm sure that he wants to be fair to those that administer justice in this province and administer justice as quickly as possible. There is another area that did concern me though, Mr. Speaker; that is an area where we come to the estates of small value, and at the present time Mr. Speaker, we find that under a

section in the Surrogate Courts Act, that we have to probate any "where it appears to. a Surrogate Court that the total value of all the property of a deceased does not exceed $1 , 000 so far as can be reasonably asce rtained, the Court , without the Grant of Probate or Letters of Administrat ion, may order that the personal property be paid or delivered to such persons as the Court directs. " And that means that they do not have to fill out all the forms that are neces sary when an estate does have to go under the Surrogate Court. I have here, Mr.

Speaker , a copy of the application for probate, and I'm sure that any individual if they picked up this application, un less they had extensiv e legal knowledge , would not be able to fill it out in a manner that would be consistent with the form. One of the other things is the estate tax return. And I just want to read to you for example, Mr. Speaker , how - and I would ask you how you would answer this question.

Section No. 8: Did the deceased have the right to income or periodic payments from a trust or settlement created by a spouse of the deceased, and which trust or settlement is included in the property pas sing on the death of the deceased by

Section 3 (1)(

a) of the Estate Ta x Act where such trust or settlement was exempt by

Section 7 (1)(

b) of the Estate Ta x Act, or

Section 112 (1)(

e) of The Income Ta x Act. Now this clearly indicates . Mr. Speaker , that there is need for legal advice for anybody in the estate settlement. Now we have given exemptions of estates under $1 , 000 here , and I would ask the Minister if that figure should not be updated to a more real istic figure today. And I would suggest to the Mini ster probably we should be looking at ex emption for estates under $1 0,000 rather than $1, 000. 00, I make these suggestions to the Minister at this time because I know that he will want to investigate and if my suggestions are valid at all, Mr.

Speaker, I'm sure that when this bill comes into Committee I would sincerely hope that he would deal with the suggestions I make at that timf). ,T hank you very much. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR . PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Member from

Febr uary 14 , 1974 395 BILL NO. 6 (MR o PATRICK cont' d) .... Portage that the debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. BILL NO O 7 MR o SPEAK ER: Th e Honourable Minister of Labour. MR . PAULLE Y presented Bill No. 7,

an Act to amend The Ci vil Service Act, for second reading. MR o SPEAKER presented the motion. MR o SP EAKER : The Honourable Mi nister . MR 0 P A ULLEY: Mr. Speaker, this is a bill that was iri�roduced at the last session of the Legislature and was not proceeded with due to dis solution of the House. We had quite a discus sion on many points of the bill at that particular time and basically the discussions were centred around one of the contents of the bill dealing with political acti vity of the civil service. Apart from that , Mr. Ch airman, and I will refer to that particular

section in a moment or two , the Act makes certain provisions for change of a sort of a house keeping basis to clarify some of the points contained in the present Ci vil Service Act by deletion of references to casual employees and a few other clarifications in the definition sections of the Act. At the present time , Mr. Speaker, it appears as though the remuneration and expenses of the commissioners is not spelled out clear enough so that we might pay ou t- of-pocket ex penses to the commissioners for the normal operation of the Ci vil Service Commission. Also contained within the Act, Mr.

Speaker, is a provision that no person shall serve as commissioner after he has attained the age of 65 unle ss an ext ension is approved by the Lieu te nant-Go vernor- in-C ouncil. Th is brings this

section of the Civil Service Act in line with the general approach that we have in our Ci vil Service Superannuation Act and brings about more uniformity and also gives the Lieu tenant -Gove rnor-in-C ouncil an opportunity without referral to the House itself , as is the present

section in the Act. I have known in the past histor y, Mr. Speaker, that some commissioners have been commissioners almost bordering on the age of 80 or 85 , and we feel that it is desirable to be able to have a retirement at the age of 65. Subject of cour se to the Lieu ten ant- Governor-in-Council having the opportunity of further exte nsions, as indeed they have at the present time under The Civil Service Super annuation Act which members will recall, and I'm su re, Mr. Speaker, that we made amend ments in that Act to make it possible for voluntary retire ment at age 60 without penalty.

A further amendment of a tid ying- up natur e, that is a clarification of the categories of employment and th ese are to be designed in the proposed amendments to the Act. Also there is a provision in the suggested amendments clarifying the position of an employee whose classification is changed and hi s rate of pay. Fu rther , Mr. Speaker , in the pre sent Act there isn't really any clear-cu t declaration as to what happens to an employee who may be demoted for other than disciplinary reasons and it is intended that the Act will tidy that up.

And again the re's no real body in the Act at the present time concerning the appointment of tempor ary employees. We intend to clarify that

section so that it' s more clearly delineated that where there is no pe rson who is qualified or su itable for a position that the commission may appoint a person on a temporary basis to fill that position. And also, Mr. Speaker , the re's an addition to the appeal

section that where an unsuc cessful candidate for a position who has been appointed on other than merit that they will have the right of appeal to the commission in respect of their particular situation. Further amendments as suggested in the Act , Mr. Speaker, deals with the general right of appeal. We're trying to tidy up the Act to the degree that there will be more latitude in the general area of the right of appeal, either to the Mi nister or to the commission, depending on the area which is of immediate concern at the time. The more important aspect of this bill, Mr.

Speaker, is one that caused quite a debate last year, and that is the sugsestion in the Act that would give to the civil service personnel the right to participate in political affairs. At the present time, Mr. Speaker, the Act says that no person employed under the government, or under any agency of the government, i,s debarred from voting at an election. It' s really nice isn't it , Mr. Speaker, when you have a piece of legislation that says to a civil servant, well we don't mind you voting at an election,

396 February 14, 1974 BILL NO, 7 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) . . . this is your right, so we spell this out in legislation that you can vote at an election. And then, Mr. Speaker , the present

section goes on to say, that no member of the civil service shall engage in any manner whatever in partis'an work in connection with the election of a member of the House of Commons of Canada or of the legislative asse mbly of any province in Ca nada. You know we are very generous aren't we with our civil servants. We tell them that they can vote in a federal election, providing they qualify; we tell them that they can vote in a provincial election, providing they qualify; and in our present legislation we say to them, ha ha ha but you ca n't take any

part in the election of a member of the House of Commons during an election for a ca ndidate on a partisan political stance, and not only, not only, M r. Speaker, is a member of the civil service in the Province of Ma nitoba debarred from taking part, truly taking

part in federal elections, if he was requested to go into Saskatchewan or On tario during an election there to give an expres sion of personal opinion in an election that is beyond the boundaries of Ma nitoba, the Act as it says at the present time that he cannot take any -- shall not engage in any manner whatever in partisan work in connection with the election of a member of any legislative ass embly in Canada. --(Interjection)-- I don't know.

My colleague-- Other than "partis an" I imagine that the Conserv ative Party of say On tario would be glad to have the Minister of Mines and Natur al Res ources, although he's not a civil servant but if he were a civil servant , I would imagine that they would appreciate the value of the wisdom that that particular individual posses ses and I would suggest, I would suggest too that his deputy minister or anybcdy else within the department could materially assis t during an election in any other jurisdiction to let them know what is happening in Ma nitoba. But if it were a civil ser vant , Mr.

Speaker, that was to do that he would be in violation of the Civil Service Act. In other words, he's not only a second-class citizen within the Province of Ma nitoba, he' s considered as a second-class citizen insofar as federal jurisdiction, and also provincial jurisdiction in any province in the whole of the Dominion of Canada, and the only difference that they make here - and maybe my honourable friend from Swan River would like to add in addition to that - "a ny of the territories" , so that they couldn't go to the Yukon or to participate in the Northwest Territories in any election there. I think, Mr.

Speaker , that there is no question of doubt, there is no question of doubt that it is time that we in Ma nitoba should recognize the rights of the civil service personnel to be free citizens and to participate in activities during an election. It's long overdue. We have advocated this for some time - in opposition and now in government. We're being con sistent in trying to make, or to give the opportunity to the civil servants in Ma nitoba the same rights, Mr. Speaker --(I nterjection)-- Yes, they have and I'l l come to that in a minute. Mr.

Speaker, we want -- or at least we on this side, and I did have some support last year from the Honourable Member for Assiniboia -- all we say is basically that the civil service in Ma nitoba should have the same rights as the 57 members that are seated around this Asse mbly this afternoon. And it's most important. The opposition continuously talks about the question of open government. They condemn us because in their opinion, erroneously of course, that we are not carrying through our pledge of open government.

Now how the heck can you have open government if you have a block of Ma nitoba citizens of somewhere in the neighbourhood of 12, 000 employees in the civil service being debarred on the threat of being fired for taking

part in an election. It's time we became adults in the field of the activities of our civil servants and remove from them the restrictions. The Act proposes that first of all that all the civil servants should have the rights and the opportunities of participation in an election campaign. It also provides, Mr. Speaker, for the question of reinstatement of a civil serv ant who may be unsuccess ful in an election camp aign so that he can come back into the employment of the government. Now my honourable friend from Swan Riv er as ks me if the government civil service had asked for this right.

Well I must say to my honourable friend that by a re solution at one of the conventions of the Ma nitoba Government Employees' As sociation a re solution was presented to that convention in December of 1972, and the resolution pas sed , Mr. Speaker. True, not by a great majority. The vote actually was, as I understand it, Mr. Speaker, a vote of 98 to 91 with 37 abstentions. --(I nterjection)-- I bet you didn't get any greater a majority on a per centage basi s or a per vote percentage. Ma ny members, Mr.

Speaker, in this House at the present time are only here by suffrance of one or two or three or four votes and -- (Interj ection)--

February 14, 1974 397 BILL NO. 7 (MR . PAULLEY cont'd) . Pa rdon ? -- (Interjection)-- No. That's right. You were one of the more succe ssful -- (lnterjection)-- Oh yes but I doubt if you reached 51 percent. I doubt if you reached -- (Interjection)-- Yes. Yes and I'm not going to comment on what I said at that time. Mr. Speaker, that Swan 'River may have been better served if they had of defeated the present Member for Swan River , I leave that to him. I leave that to him, Mr. Speaker, and to his conscience and I may be a little presumptive when I suggest that my honourable friend has such a conscience.

However he did ask me, Mr. Speaker whether this was asked for and whether or not it was approved, and I say that notwithstanding the slimness of the majority, it was approved at a convention of the Ma nitoba Government Employees Association in December of 1972. Of course there was argument , pro and con, but I reca ll many a debate in this House, Mr. Speaker, when legislation has been adopted by a slimmer majority than 98 to 91 .

I recall having to, when my honourable friend from Swan Riv er attempted to scuttle this administration when we were bringing in the matter of automobile insurance, the vote then, I believe, Mr. Speaker was pr etty close to being a tie. But it be came a fact in the res olution adopting .. MR . SPEAKER: Or der, please. MR . PAULL EY: --(Interjection)-- That' s right. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please. MR .

PAULLEY: But the resolution was passe d in this House by a very narrow majority and it became the law of the country, and it is here now and people are satisfied , people are satisfied except the continuous heckling from across the other side of the House, but people are now satisfied in the vast majority that a very slim majority of members of this As sembly brought about the enactment of the automobile insuranc e plan; they're satisfied; nobody worries about whether the vote was very close or whether it wasn't. And that' s the situation, Mr. Chairman, in respect of this resolution.

Now, I will say this, that following the adoption of the resolution in a convention of the Ma nitoba Governm ent Employees Association, the executive of that associa tion said, "Well the majority isn't big enough; we want to take it back for further consideration ." Now where it stands I don't really know, except, excep t--(Interjection)-- because I think . MR . ENNS: You're going to ram it through. MR . SPEAKE R : Or der, please. MR .

PAULLEY: No , I'm not going to ram it through, and I'l l bet you a cotton-pickin' dollar that if my honourable friend would use hi s conscience, if he' s got one, he would support the advancemen t of such progress ive legislation that would give to the stenographers, the floor sweepers and all ether categories of civil servants the same rights and privileges that he has, and to deny them, Mr. Speaker, is a travesty of justice; it's almost tantamount to being in human. But -- (lnterjection)-- MR . SPEAKER: Order , please. Order, please. MR. PAULLEY: My honourable friend says you can't serve two ma sters.

I'd like to think of myself as the administrative head of the Department of Labour, not as a ma ster but one who with the co-operation of the staff attempts to bring about better understanding and privileges of all peoples in the Province of Ma nitoba in the area of my responsibility. I don't consider myself a master , but I do believe , I do believe , Mr. Speaker , that those who work with me should have the same rights and privileges and opportunities that I have in the selection and in, during an election, attempting to bring about an election. I wouldn't be a darn bit surprised, Mr.

Speaker, that even up in that great country called Swan River Valley area, that there were some civil servants that did go out and say, "I like Jim". MR . BILTON: They all said it. MR . PAULLEY: They all said it? Mr. Speaker, here is what I'm trying to get at. My honourable friend the Member for Swan Riv er says they all said it. It wa s illegal for them to say it. I want to legalize it so that they can say it. -- (Interjection)-- Of course. That' s the same way with my honourable friend there from ... MR . SPEAKER: The honourable member state his point of privilege. MR .

ENNS: I really believe it's not the Minister 's intention to deliberately distort the purpose of the bill in the manner that he has just done. There' s nothing in the bill or nothing in the old bill that permits the civil servants ... MR . SPEAKER: Orde r please. The honourable gentleman is debating the bill and not

398 February 14 , 1974 BILL NO . 7 (MR . SPEAKER cont'd) ...• stating a matter of principle. The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, it seems that in this instance as in so many other in stances, my honourable friend--and he's not a bad sort of a guy except that he hasn't come through with a suckling pig yet, but he is a nice sort of a fellow, but it's so obvious, Mr.

Speaker, that my honourable friend from Lakeside couldn't have taken time out to read the contents of the present bill, and if what the Honourable Member for Swan Ri ver said is correct, then all of the civil servants that said, "We like Jim; we're going for him, " and he admitted that they did, are in violation of this act. And maybe the Minister responsible for the civil service could cause an investigation to be made into this and fire them all, because they violated the law. -- (Interjection)-- No, I was deferring to my friend from Lakeside . MR. ENNS: Go ahead. MR.

PA ULLEY: I said first -- no I won't .•• MR. SP EAKER: Order, please. MR. PAULLEY: Bu t, Mr. Speaker, for the edification, if it's possible to penetrate as well as educate, I suggest to my honourable friend that he listen for a moment to what the act at the present time says,''that no member of the Civil Service shall engage in any manner whatever in the partisan work in connection with an election of a member of the House of Commons of Canada or to the Legislative Assembly of any province in Canada.'' That's what the act says. And my honourable friend from Lakeside has the --(lnterjection)-- MR .

SP EAKER: Order, please. MR. PAULLEY: You know, sometimes, Mr. Speaker, penetrating the mind of my honourable friend from Lakesi de is an arduous task. I'v e tried it on innumerable occasions before; on some occasions I'v e been successful, but there are times then when my honourable friend seems to put a steel wall around his cranium and penetration is not possible. But I do suggest to my honourable friend that he take a look at the act at the present time. I do suggest to my honourable friend from Swan Ri ver that his statement that the civil servants in Swan Ri ver went out and openly supported him. _. MR .

BILTON : I didn't say that. MR. PAULLEY: You did. You read Hansard. You see, my ... MR. SP EAKER: Order, please. MR . PAULLEY: You know, Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend on many occasions doesn't know what he speaks of or what he speaks, and I would suggest to my honourable friend that he read Hansard to see whether or not he did not say that they all went out and supported him. So I say, Mr. Speaker, that this is not a bill imposing conditions, it's removing con ditions that have been imposed on our civil servants.

We talk about belonging to a free society we talk about the rights and privileges of all of our citizens, and I as the Mi nister responsible to this House for the civil service, recommend very highly that we should bring about equality in the political field, in the voting field. You know, Mr. Speaker, just recently , and even today, even today the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge raised the question about equality of the rights of women, equality of the pay rates. This is a very popular thing: the equality of equal opportunities in employ ment. You know, Mr .

Speaker, if a person works for Eaton's, the Hudson's Bay, or any other employer, they have the right of participation. We talk about equal employment opportunities, equality of the human factor, and yet here, Mr. Speaker, with this piece of legislation that we're dealing with at the present time, we have the archaic situation that we deprive our own 12 or more thousand civil servants from the right of being citizens of Canada and citizens of this province. This isn' t something new that I am advocating today, Mr. Speaker, it's something that other provinces have adopted thus far.

All I am trying to do is to drag my honourable friends opposite out of the last centruy into an area of reality. There's one other point within the act, Mr . Speaker, that I would like to refer to, and that is the composition of the Civil Service Commission. At the present time, the act in dicates that the Civil Service Commission shall be comprised of three, and there is a pro vision in the act - a suggested amendment, Mr. Speaker- to remove that restriction of three, to indicate that there will be no less then three members of the commission.

This would give an opportunity of appointing additional members to the Civil Service Commission

February 14, 1974 399 BILL NO. 7 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd ) .... who basic ally are only paid a minimum amount of re numeration, and I might say my own indication is at the pres ent time that if we have the authority to go beyond the three, in view of the agitation, in view of the positive approach that is being taken at the pres ent time, I would be more than prepared to consider an addition of a woman to the present commi ssion in order that they would be involved with the Civil Service through the Civil Service Commission.

I raise that point, I raise that point because I believe in equalityJ I believe in the equality of the opportunities of people, I believe in the equality of our civil servants with all the rest of us insofar as their participation in politics ar e concerned, and I guess we have to recognize the day, Mr. Speaker-- maybe it's because it's Va lentine' s Day- we should recognize that there should be an opportunity for women to belong to the Civil Service Commission and assist the government of today in its policies directed towards the Civil Service. MR . SHERMAN: ... tomorrow. MR .

PAULLEY: Yes and the government tomorrow, and my honourable friend from Fort Garry is quite correct, and the government of tomorrow, and I v:ant to assure my hon ourable friend that while I may not be a member of the next As sembly I am sure that my colleagues of the New Democratic Pa rty will be the government of tomorrow and we'll have no hang-up, we'll have no hang-up, Mr. Speaker , we'l l have no hang-up with this type of legislation. I think it' s a good legislation. Last year when it was under discussion, Mr.

Speaker, there was some question as to exclu sions of Deputy Ministers and certain other personnel. I would be quite prepared, when the bill goes to Law Amendments Committee, to hear repr esentations from members of the House, of course , or anybody else , as to how that clause should be fabricated in order to be fair; because some said, some said, well, why do you have an exclusion of a Deputy Minister ? Re ally basically there was that ·in the proposal that was made, but I'm prepared, Mr.

Speaker , to consider amendments when the bill goes to committee, as I believe it will, to consider the exceptions or exemptions of clauses contained within the amendment being proposed this afternoon. So I say in conclusion, Mr. Speaker , let' s be fair. Let us treat our civil servants as we ourselve s are treated, and give them the opportunity to participate.

And if there's any fear at all, if there 's any fear at all of upset, changes of civil servan ts , it could have happened as my colleague and my Pr emier indicated the other day , there was no major upheaval in the Civil Servic e of Ma nitoba, although some are crying because we didn't. I suggest that we don't need to, I suggest that we should give: our people an opportunity to be full citizens of the Pr ovince of Ma nitoba and of the Dominion of Ca nada, and they're debarred from that as far as the Civil Service is concerned under our present act. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan Ri ver. MR .

BILTON: Mr. Speaker , I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Roblin, that the debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR . SPEAKER: Bill No. 9, The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR . USKIW: Mr. Speaker , may we ask the House to allow that matter to stand ? (Agreed) BILL NO. 10 MR . SPEAKER: Bill No. 10. The Honourable Minister again. MR . USKIW presented Bill No. 10,

an Act to amend The Ma rgarine Act for second reading. MOTION presented. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR . USKIW: Mr. Speaker , I'm sure it doesn't require a great deal of explanation because the bill is a one-page document. What it does do, however , is fairly significant and one has to wonder whether one should hesitate in its introduction, keeping in mind, Mr. Speaker, the lengthy debate that not too many of us in this House presently would recall but which some of us may very well do.

I am advised by some of my colleagues that that partic ular legislation which put the colour requirement into the Margarine Act, or the colour bar is a better word to use , Mr. Speaker , was one that created a lot of debate in this House, prob ably a debate that lasted for more days than most pieces of legislation of greater importance. Let me say, Mr. Speaker , that I have never been one personally to support the idea of

400 February 14 , 1974 BILL NO. 10 (MR. USKIW cont'd) .•.. restriction against the consuming public in the way in which the present act now provides. I think that the climate of the day is much different today than it was in the year s when the Margarine Act was int roduced; that people have greater reco gnition for the wishes of the consumer and for the consumer preference.

This bill will remove the colour re str iction and allow the kind of competition that should always have been allowed in the past, and will also allow for the manufacturing and di str ibution and marketing of diet marg arine, which is: not now permissible under the present legislation. So , with tho se few comments, I recommend the bill to the House, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ro ck Lake. MR. EINARSON: Well, Mr . Speaker, I thank the Minis ter of Agricu ltur e for his few words on Bill No. 10, namely

an Act to amend The Margarine Act. I too was not here when the long debate I guess was pursued in thi s particular subject, and should agree with the Mini ster , Mr. Speaker, that probably in that day it was a su bject of much greater importanc e than we find it today. We didn't have the problem of pro viding the people of Mani toba with butter SUPplies such as we do today, and I think that the way in which our dairy polic ies have been conducted has a great deal to be desired when we talk about the production of a co mmodity I think that is important to the health and diet of all our consumers in thi s province.

I think I'm correct, Mr. Speaker, in saying that our present situation insofar as the but ter industry is concerned, we are probably importing somewhat in the neighbourhood of six million pounds into the Province of Manitoba per year , and I am given to understand, Mr. Speaker, that the dairy produc ers of this province don't have the objections to the amendment of this Act as they did a number of years ago. And I think , Mr.

Speaker, and I hope I'm correct when I have said this, that ther e won't be any repercussions in the days to follow when probably many of them are not ju st aware of what is taking place insofar as this Act is concerned But the fact remains that our dairy situa tion is completely changed now to what it was , and I repeat that , and as a result it does not have the impact. There's one aspect of this short amendment , Mr. Speaker, that the Mini ster mentions the fact that th ey're now going to produce a diet margarine, but the re's a percentage of an ingredient here, Mr.

Speaker , that when they talk about the diet margarine co ntains less than 40 percent of fat and is labelled "diet margari ne" or "d iet spread" , the Min is ter didn't indic ate what is the balance of the co ntent of that product that will go into the makings of a pound of that kind of margarine , namely for people who are on diets and wish to consume that kind of margarine. I think, Mr. Speaker, this is important that we know , because I think this involves the Departm ent of Health and probably the Food and Drug Act insofar as this Act is concerned.

Now I don't know whether there are other members in my group that may' want to make some comme nt s on this matter . We will acc ept it for face value as we know it right now and will look forward to the probable discussions, if ther e are any, to be heard in Co mmittee before it has th ird reading. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR . G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker , we accept the Mi niste r's explanation at its face value; it 's rather str aightf orward and we have no disagreeme nt with the bill.

But I would say on speaking about the regulation that calls for a certain percentag e of water not to be exceeded, I believe it' s sixte en, and also the fat content must not be below 80 percent, I would think that it would be a part of the regulations that the content would have to be printed on packages so people would know what they were buying. I wish the Min ister of Cons umer Affairs was here so that I could suggest to him that some regulations should be looked at with regard to the baking of bread.

I don't know if members know it but in certain countr ies such as Holland there are very str ict regulations with regard to the manufacture of bread in the commercial bakeries. In our countr y, manufactur ers add to the flour, they add whitener s, they add chemicals to keep the bread with a longer shelf life, which is an anti- mold chemical which may or may not be harmful. Other chemicals are added or other additives are made, I should say, to make the flour retain and hold more moi stur e so ·· that they can str etch a hundred pound bag of flour into another five or ten loaves of bread.

Well, I think most people regard the manufactured white bread today as almost being a diet bread because a lot of the good has been either watered down or changed or milled out of it or the flour is poli shed or som ething of that natur e. I should say the grain is poli shed. So I would SUPport some regulation with respect to the co mmercial manufacturing of bread for sale to the public. What a person does

February 14, 1974 401 BILL NO, 10 (MR. G. JOHNSTON cont'd ) . • in his own home , well that' s their business how they manu facture it. I do know , having been in the supermarket busi ness, how a loaf of white bread is put together, and I'll tell you it's not anything that I ever recommended to my chi ldren to eat as it was not the true grain product coming in its best natur al form. So I hope that the Mi nister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs will read my few remarks in this regard and perhaps examine this problem also. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I have a few comments or questions to ask the Honour able the Min ister regarding this bill and I'm wondering, when he closes debate on it, if he can give me some information as to what contact he' s made with the food industry in relation to this bill. And also, in fact, has he been in conference with the Min ister of Agri culture in the other provinces of Ca nada , because if we're going to move and use these percenta ges, then I think we should move and make it a standard all across Ca nada , not only for the percentages but I think for the colour as well.

I happen to be a co untr y storekeeper and there are ladies today that will go into Sa skatc hewan and come back with a kind of a margarine tha t's a different colour , and they keep buggin me why haven't I got that particular colour. And I would think, you know, onc e we do move with this type of legislation, let's try and at least move as a block, at least four or five . . . and I hope in the Minis ter's reply to him he'll give some of the information as to --the wholesale level of the food industry have expressed some concerns because the y're asked again for six or seven different colours of margarine.

I don't want to get into a can of worms again but I'm looking for some uniformity with the other provinces with this type of legislat ion. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR . ENNS: Mr. Speaker, lb eg to move, seconded by tre Honour able Member for Fo rt Garry, that debate on this bill be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bi ll No. 11. The Honourable Minis ter of Agriculture. There' s no one here. MR. GREEN: We ask the indulgence of the House to have Bi ll 11 stand. (Agreed) MR. SPEAKER: BILL No. 12. The Honourable Min ister of Agric ultu re. BILL NO. 12 MR.

USKIW presented Bi ll No. 12,

an Act to amend the Veterinary Services Act , for second reading. MR. SPEAKE R : pres ent ed the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister . MR . US KIW: Mr. Speaker, the bill before us is by and large one of housekeeping in nature with the exceptio n of one provision where it has some implication on budget.

But essent ially the bill will provide for - or does provide amendments in the area of the cost of the operation of the district boards allowing for an upward revision, and it provides for the renaming of veterinary clinics to animal hospital facili ties, and that is because of the rep res entati ons that have been made to us by people in the pri vate sector who have long used the term "veterinary clinics" who feel that they would like to be identified separately from the government clinic s, and we have agreed to faci litate that kind of a change for them .

The importan t aspect of thi s bill has to do with the increase of governm ent support to the Vet Services Dis tricts, and I should like to reflect on the program for a moment or two , Mr. Speaker , because we do have a very succes sful program in the veterinary field in this provinc e, and much more success ful as we are procee ding to develop more veterinary hospital facilities. We have brought back into Manitoba a number of veter inarians.

A number of stud ents that have been going to Veterinary Co llege have come to practice in Manitoba because of the new program , the aggressiv e program that we have launched three years ago. The new provision provides for grants from the province to the di str ict of $5, 000 per veterinarian as opposed to $5, 000 to a district as contained in the present legisl ation. It does, in other words, Mr. Speaker, allow for multiple practice which does reflect in fact in many communities because of the new uses made of veterinary services due to the program that we have brought into being thr ee years ago.

There's not much more I can add to th at, Mr. Speaker, other than I wish to recommend

402 February 14, 1974 BILL NO, 12 (MR . USKIW cont' d) . . the bill to the House and hopefully to get the support of members opposite. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. JAM ES R. FERGUSON (Gladstone) : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We haven't a great deal to say, or I haven't a great deal to say on this bill, Mr. Speaker, Clause 9 (1) to do with the maximum amount rais ed from $3 00 to $1 ,2 00, I would expect that this would be on a pro portional scale; this would be from thr ee to twelve , rais ing the ceiling that can be collected from each individual district.

And the other wast he $5,000 per veterinary, or vet, and I would like to ask the Minis ter how many clinics would qualify under this particular clause, if ther e are th ree, four or how many are in the province: at the present time. I see by the agricultural reports that ther e are 21 districts establi shed , ther e are 1

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-16
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 16.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e9892fb3ac551b124c6fa15ef2f0ab48fa8be611

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