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June 2, 1987

33rd Parliament, 3rd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

L020 - Tue 2 Jun 1987 / Mar 2 jun 1987

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

TABLING OF INFORMATION

RETAIL STORE HOURS

WEST PARK SECONDARY SCHOOL

BUDGET

EDUCATION FUNDING

VICTORIA COLLEGE

NURSING HOMES

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

CONSUMER PROTECTION

SENIOR CITIZENS MONTH

RESPONSES

SENIOR CITIZENS MONTH

CONSUMER PROTECTION

SENIOR CITIZENS MONTH

ITALIAN NATIONAL REPUBLIC DAY

ORAL QUESTIONS

CONSTITUTIONAL DISCUSSIONS

FUND-RAISING

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

ASSISTANCE FOR THE DISABLED

CONSTITUTIONAL DISCUSSIONS

WORKERS' COMPENSATION

FUND-RAISING

GOVERNMENT PROCUREMENT

DELAY IN SENTENCING

DOCTORS' BILLING PRACTICES

ACID RAIN

ONTARIO HYDRO RATES IN NORTHERN ONTARIO

RAILCAR INDUSTRY

TRANSIT SERVICES

WESTERN COAL

PETITION

SCHOOL RENOVATION

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

CITY OF TORONTO ACT

CITY OF TORONTO ACT

YORK FIRE AND CASUALTY INSURANCE COMPANY ACT

TABLING OF INFORMATION

ORDERS OF THE DAY

MEMBERS' CONFLICT OF INTEREST ACT (CONTINUED) / LOI DE 1987 SUR LES CONFLITS D'INTÉRÊTS DES MEMBRES DE L'ASSEMBLÉE (CONTINUÉ

E) REGIONAL MUNICIPALITIES AMENDMENT ACT

WINE CONTENT AMENDMENT ACT

RETAIL SALES TAX AMENDMENT ACT

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

Prayers.

Mr. Speaker: Members' statements.

Hon. Mr. Ruprecht: Mr. Speaker --

Mr. Speaker: The member for Simcoe East (Mr. McLean).

Hon. Mr. Ruprecht: Mr. Speaker, if I could be recognized, please.

Mr. McLean: My statement is for the acting Minister of Government Services (Mr. Conway).

Hon. Mr. Nixon: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: I do not want to interrupt the honourable gentleman, but my colleague the member for Parkdale (Mr. Ruprecht) was going to ask for unanimous consent to recognize --

Hon. Mr. Ruprecht: I rise to ask for unanimous consent in order to pay tribute and recognize a special event that took place in Italy and in order to honour the Italo-Canadian community today.

Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?

Mr. Harris: Maybe I could suggest it is news to me. I want to give unanimous consent, and it might be more appropriate if I did that before ministerial statements.

Hon. Mr. Nixon: On the point of order, it is news to me that it is news to the honourable member, and on that basis I must apologize. If this has not been properly ordered, then it is a very serious matter and I apologize for it.

Mr. Harris: Could we have unanimous consent right before question period?

Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent at the moment?

Mr. Shymko: Before question period.

Agreed to.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

TABLING OF INFORMATION

Mr. McLean: My statement is for the acting Minister of Government Services (Mr. Conway). As the minister is well aware, I originally asked him on October 14, 1986, to provide me with a list of ministers, members and their staff who have been using government-assigned automobiles since June 26, 1985. My original notice was served on October 14, 1986. The interim answer was tabled on November 13, 1986.

I was then informed the approximate date the information would be made available was January 15, 1987. A revised interim answer was tabled on January 22. I was then told the approximate date the information would be made available would be in February 1987. I was then told I could expect to receive this information by April 29, 1987.

We are now in the first week of June, approximately eight months after I originally made my request. I have been told that additional time is required to obtain and assemble the data for all government ministries. The latest date I have been given for receiving the list requested last year is now August 31.

The question I originally asked last year was a relatively simple one: How many civil servants and members of the Legislature have cars assigned to them? The people of Ontario have the right to know where their tax dollars are being spent. It is rather odd that the minister cannot seem to get his hands on a list of such major assets as government-assigned automobiles or the names of the ministers, members and civil servants who are using these vehicles. The time has come to answer these questions.

RETAIL STORE HOURS

Mr. Philip: It was fairly clear earlier this year that the Liberal government had no idea what to do concerning the issues related to retail store hours, in particular whether there should be Sunday shopping, and if so, to what degree.

Although members of one party had held extensive hearings across the province and prepared a report, the government established yet another group, an all-party select committee, to travel around the province, at considerable expense to the taxpayers, and prepare yet another report. This report, which had the support of members of all three parties on the committee, was tabled on May 21.

We now understand the cabinet is greatly divided on certain recommendations contained in this all-party report. Among the various issues addressed in the report are the designation of tourist areas and the exemption of small bookstores and art galleries from the Sunday-closing requirement. With reference to the latter, there is a bill before the House which could easily be amended in committee to conform to the committee's report. Unfortunately, the government has refused to call the bill.

The tourist season is upon us, businesses are losing money and, in some cases, businessmen are being harassed as a result of the indecision of the government. It is time for the government to stop sitting on the fence and show leadership in this matter. The issues and recommendations raised by the select committee will not go away until after the election. It is time for the Premier (Mr. Peterson) and the Attorney General (Mr. Scott) to bite the bullet and tell us where they stand on the report and bring forth the legislation.

WEST PARK SECONDARY SCHOOL

Mr. Reycraft: I would like to rise today and voice my great satisfaction at the recent announcement by the Metropolitan Separate School Board and the Toronto Board of Education regarding their leasing agreement to share West Park Secondary School.

As a member of the standing committee on social development who participated in the construction of Bill 30, the extension of separate school funding, I must say this is the essence of the type of local board co-operation we envisioned as we worked long and hard drafting that legislation.

I want to congratulate the members of the joint planning committee for their successful resolution of the negotiation process. I would like to particularly mention Ann Vanstone, chairperson of the Metropolitan Toronto School Board, Nola Crewe, chairperson of the Toronto Board of Education, and Caroline DiGiovanni, chairperson of the Metropolitan Separate School Board, for their efforts in this process.

I say to my friends in opposition who were members of the social development committee, especially the member for Scarborough Centre (Mr. Davis) and the member for Hamilton West (Mr. Allen), that joint committees do indeed work for the best interests of all students and I do acknowledge their active participation in the development of this subsection of Bill 30.

This is not the first example of local board co-operation in the negotiation and the sharing of facilities. Others include Essex and Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry. I think we should all be proud of the efforts of our boards in co-operating in the implementation of this important piece of legislation for the benefit of all our students.

BUDGET

Mr. Harris: Today I would like to put on the record some of the basic information in the budget that should have been shared with Ontarians.

Since the Liberals took office, they have increased personal income tax by $4 billion. That is a $1,000 increase for every Ontario taxpayer. Other revenues, taxes and user fees are up another $1,000 or so per taxpayer. There is no chart in the budget showing that the average taxpayer now is paying about $2,000 more per year in taxes.

Some of this money is from growth in the economy, but where is the chart showing the large portion of it that is from tax increases in the last two budgets? Where is the chart showing that inflation on government spending is up $3 billion? Well, the Trudeau-style, Peterson-style, Nixon Liberal-style spending is up $8 billion, a level of $5 billion over inflation. There is no chart showing the cumulative inflation for their three budgets, up 13 per cent, versus cumulative spending for their three budgets, up 30 per cent.

What there is in the budget is some fast-handed chicanery that improperly shows the deficit going down, but in fact it is going up to $1.3 billion. There is some more chicanery in the education funding that shows either school board transfers are down or the deficit is up to $1.6 billion. The Treasurer (Mr. Nixon) refuses to tell us which.

Surely, the Treasurer should fess up today or resign before it is too late for Ontario ever to recover from the savage attack and damage he is doing to the economy of Ontario.

EDUCATION FUNDING

Mr. Allen: It was a great disappointment when the Treasurer (Mr. Nixon) and the Minister of Education (Mr. Conway) could not combine to tackle the over-ceiling spending of school boards, the problem of the disproportion of commitment to education expenditures between the province and the boards and in particular to tackle in some measure the gap between elementary and secondary school grants in the system.

Those grants, if I may refer to the latter, moved from $476 a decade ago to $911 this past year. While the government has spoken a great deal -- indeed all of us have -- about the importance of improving elementary education for a number of reasons, not least of all to provide a better base for secondary education and to tackle the drop-out rates, and the early primary education review has indicated the importance of that whole period of education for children, the government has not moved or provided the funds to make it possible for boards to move to more adequately confront that issue.

It is, for example, a major scandal that in the elementary schools the rate of textbook spending is far below the national average. There is a major problem, for example, in the expenditures necessary to acquire the computer capacity to give each child computer experience in the classroom and so on.

It is time for the minister and the Treasurer to move to begin to eliminate this gap in our education expenditures.

VICTORIA COLLEGE

Mr. Sheppard: I am very pleased to rise today to announce that the Victoria College site on University Avenue in Cobourg has been sold to a private firm that plans to convert it to a retirement community. I have always maintained that the historic building should again become a functioning part of our community and I am extremely happy that Victoria College will finally be restored and made use of.

There were four responses to the tender call last February for the sale and development of the property. The site has been sold for $530,000 to a Brockville firm, Wachfree Construction. The Wachfree Construction proposal includes a retirement community of 85 rental units in a mix of bachelor, one-bedroom and two-bedroom units in existing buildings. The balance of the site will accommodate detached and semi-detached homes as well as townhouses designed for seniors. In addition, the former auditorium will be restored as a community centre for the complex.

Not only will this project provide very much needed rental accommodation for seniors, but it will also create long-term employment for the community.

Wachfree will begin engineering studies immediately and primary work on the project will start once the transaction is finalized.

NURSING HOMES

Mr. Warner: I think there is a new accord afoot here. Accords are really popular these days. It is between the member for St. Andrew-St. Patrick (Mr. Grossman) and the Liberal Party. This is a really strange one. I sent away for a booklet about nursing homes in Ontario. I received back a booklet from the government two days ago. It has "Minister of Health, Larry Grossman" on the back of it, which tells me this government has done absolutely nothing about nursing homes in Ontario since the present Leader of the Opposition was the minister.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

CONSUMER PROTECTION

Hon. Mr. Kwinter: I would like to announce today that I have appointed a 14-member Advisory Committee on Consumer Protection, which is holding its first meeting today.

Last summer, the Ministry of Consumer and Commercial Relations began a review of all existing consumer protection legislation. This review encompasses 20 pieces of legislation and a number of consumer issues, such as warranties, contracts, dispute resolution and complaint remedies. Since we will soon be drafting legislation, I have appointed this committee to review the work done so far and to continue to work with us.

The 14 representatives of consumer, business and other interest groups will be advising me on the changes that are needed to bring our consumer protection laws up to date.

As all members are aware, the world of the consumer is changing dramatically. Much of the existing legislation is a generation out of date and was haphazardly developed. We have seen vulnerable consumers left unprotected in the marketplace and we are seeing new services, technologies and other trends reshape our marketplace.

Our goal is comprehensive and concise legislation which will also give us the flexibility to respond to problems as they emerge during this century and well into the next.

The consumer legislative review project is aimed at developing a simplified yet comprehensive approach to consumer protection. Basic consumer protection and fair business practice measures will be included in one piece of legislation accompanied by separate laws dealing with specific industries.

The advisory committee will be overseeing the proposals of the legislative review project to ensure that they are comprehensive yet responsive to a broad range of perspectives and interests. The advisory committee will advise the ministry project team and myself as its work progresses.

This consumer legislative review project is working to build a marketplace where fairness is assured to all consumers and where honest business people prosper. The advisory committee's broad representation will serve us well in reaching this goal.

It is an ambitious project but one we want to accomplish to meet our responsibilities to Ontario's consumers.

SENIOR CITIZENS MONTH

Hon. Mr. Van Horn

e: It is a pleasure for me to announce that once again, June has been proclaimed Senior Citizens Month in Ontario, a time to honour the role of seniors in our society, to celebrate their achievements and to encourage their continuing active involvement in the life of our province.

This year's Senior Citizens Month theme, "Ageing is a lifelong affair," recognizes that ageing is an ongoing process, an accumulation of knowledge and experiences. We do not suddenly become old at 65; many of the plans, hopes and aspirations that are common during our youth remain with us throughout life.

The focus of the province's tribute to seniors will be the presentation of the Ontario Senior Achievement Awards by the Premier (Mr. Peterson) at 6 p.m. on Tuesday, June 23, 1987, in the main foyer of the Legislative Building.

The purpose of these awards is to recognize some of the outstanding contributions individual senior citizens have made to our communities and to the quality of life in Ontario.

In April, requests for nominations were forwarded to senior citizens and community organizations and were made available to the public at large upon request. The external nomination process conducted this year resulted in well over 400 individual seniors being nominated.

It was a most difficult task for the selection committee to choose the most outstanding individuals from those who were nominated. However, with the assistance of Mrs. Ivy St. Lawrence, chairman of the Ontario Advisory Council on Senior Citizens, and two of our colleagues, the member for Mississauga South (Mrs. Marland), representing the Conservative caucus, and the member for Scarborough-Ellesmere (Mr. Warner), representing the New Democratic Party caucus, 21 recipients of this year's award have been chosen.

I am pleased to announce these winners today. They are: Rev. Joseph Brown, Toronto; Paul Emile Boileau, Sturgeon Falls; Mrs. Maude Cochrane, Deseronto; Mrs. Mary Dwyer, Wawa; Miss Margaret Griffiths, Ottawa; Mrs. Mabel Harvey, Kenora; Art Hill, Deseronto; Dr. Arnold Iscove, Toronto; Mrs. Dorthea Knights, Windsor; Mrs. Anita Lapointe, Port Colborne; Mrs. Mrytle MacLeod, Kirkland Lake; Mrs. Thora Mills, Toronto; J. D. Mohan, Brampton; Grant Palmer, Peterborough; Ernest and Dulcie Pink, St. Catharines; Gus Ryder, Toronto; W. Bev Shouldice, Shallow Lake; James Spark, Guelph; Mrs. Lucy Turnbull, Mississauga; and Herb Wittich, Waterloo.

Each of this year's recipients has continued in his or her own unique way to contribute his or her skills and talents to society. Through honouring these individuals with the 1987 Ontario Senior Achievement Award, the government of Ontario expresses its appreciation to those people who have continued to use their talents and energies for the benefit of their communities and for society as a whole.

I hope all members will join me in this tribute to Ontario's seniors by recognizing the many contributions seniors make to the quality of life in their area and by celebrating this very special month at local events in their own communities.

I want to invite all members of this House to attend the presentation of the awards on June 23, 1987, at 6 p.m. in the main foyer of the Legislative Building, and also to wear one of these buttons remembering the occasion of this month as Senior Citizens Month.

RESPONSES

SENIOR CITIZENS MONTH

Mrs. Marland: It is a pleasure for me to join in the recognition of the seniors of our province today. I must say that there is some humour in the statement by the minister, that being that perhaps for the first time in the history of this Legislature, the members will now know there is a legitimate lifelong affair, that of ageing.

The other statement refers to the fact that ageing is an ongoing process, and I think that will be a great benefit for people who have not known what the biologists, the scientists and the pre-dinner beverage manufacturers have known for some time.

I must say it was indeed a pleasure for me, on behalf of our caucus, to sit on the committee, because if all members had the opportunity we had to look through in excess of 400 nominations, they would be able to appreciate at first hand just how rich our province is in terms of the work, dedication and commitment of the senior citizens of Ontario. It would give all members a great deal of pride to know personally of people outside their immediate ridings and their involvement and tremendous dedication.

In particular today, I am of course very proud of the fact that one of the recipients is a lady in Mississauga, Lucy Turnbull, who is 84 years of age. In her case, she would perhaps be best described as the founder of senior citizens' organizations and programs within the city of Mississauga. She has in excess of a 20-year involvement.

In recognizing her, it is only because she is the only one I know personally. All these recipients are equally as tremendous in their contribution and in their work, and I think the recognition of our seniors through this program of the Ontario Senior Achievement Awards is one in which we should all take pride, joy and gratitude.

Mr. Cousens: We have more words from the minister. I believe every day is seniors' day. Certainly, the background of our province has been built by those people. When we start looking at the grey hair and the age of some of us, we realize we have a vested interest in being interested in seniors. The fact is that many of us should be far more involved in the work of seniors.

In compliment to our own leader, the member for St. Andrew-St. Patrick (Mr. (Grossman), and to the people of our party, we have had a task force going for the last year on care for the elderly, on human and social issues in the province. We have just come out with a new paper on seniors, "Senior Wise," a report on services for seniors. The government is sitting over there doing a lot of talking, but as far as real action is concerned it is not doing any. They talk about putting their money where their mouth is, but they are not doing it. When we look at the home care and home support services which should be significantly expanded, we do not see the dollars going into those services.

The fact of the matter is that our seniors are getting words. What they really want from this government is action. I have to say the government will stand judged for its lack of action for seniors. The seniors are not fools. When this government starts saying it will do something for them, it should do it, not just put the words out there. The dollars are not going out in the budget. It is time the government started to do something instead of just saying nice things.

Mr. Andrewes: The minister has now discovered that ageing is an ongoing process, something that was discovered many years ago, almost centuries ago, by scientists, by psychologists, by biologists and by those who manufacture pre-dinner refreshments. What this minister needs to do now is to say that when it comes to caring for elderly people in Ontario, we will treat them all the same. We will provide the same level of service under one statute called an extended services act. When the minister brings in that kind of an announcement, we will thank him and congratulate him.

CONSUMER PROTECTION

Mr. Swart: I would like to respond to the statement of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations (Mr. Kwinter). First, I would like to say that if consumer protection was based on the number of committees and the number of committee members that any government had, it should have the greatest consumer protection in this nation, especially when it has a bunch of committees sitting around this province dealing with 20 different pieces of legislation.

Now they have 14 more members, and many of those members are very competent people. I would like to think it was real, but I know from experience in the two years this government has been there that it is not.

For instance, the minister says in this report, "We have seen vulnerable consumers left unprotected in the marketplace." That is no understatement, by any means. What has the minister done with regard to natural gas prices when hearings have been held? He has left them loaded against the consumers. What has he done with gasoline prices in the north, even after his government made a promise? What has he done with the Ontario Hydro hearings to protect the consumers? What has he done with insurance rates over the last two years? Nothing; absolutely nothing.

It is true that in this nation we need real consumer protection. It is true that we have the highest concentration of corporations of any democracy in the world and we have the poorest competition legislation of any democracy in the world. The best the minister has been able to do so far, as the Conservatives did before him, was to form what they call self-policing agencies. They do not work.

If the minister was really sincere about consumer protection when he divided the Ministry of Consumer and Commercial Relations, instead of separating out financial institutions and leaving consumer and commercial relations together he would have had a full ministry of consumer protection and put the rest of the commercial enterprise in with the other ministry.

If he is really sincere about this, he would appoint a public advocate on behalf of the consumers, as they have done in the United States, to fight for them on every issue. Simply, what he has done today is just another measure of election posturing, like he has done on the insurance issue.

Mr. Speaker: Any further responses? The member for Welland-Thorold -- I am sorry, the member for Scarborough-Ellesmere.

Mr. Warner: No one forgets the member for Welland-Thorold.

SENIOR CITIZENS MONTH

Mr. Warner: I am pleased to respond on behalf of my party in offering congratulations to the recipients of the Ontario Senior Achievement Awards this year. I am very pleased that these individuals will be honoured.

I am sure the recipients themselves, along with our party, might also wish to deliver a message to this government that platitudes are not enough. It is one thing to honour recipients of awards each year. That is important and we appreciate it, but it is not enough.

A full year ago, this assembly unanimously passed the Seniors' Independence Act. The government has managed to stall that legislation, as it has stalled any form of revamping our system. If this government truly believes that community-based care is important and that it is important to give seniors the opportunity to remain in their own homes, then it should do something about it and not simply talk about it.

For example, in the last budget, the Treasurer (Mr. Nixon) had the opportunity to ensure that the property tax credit would accurately reflect the approximate amount of the education tax, and he failed to do so. This government has not addressed, in a serious way, trying to come up with decent wages for the community care workers. In that measure alone, the message is still that the institutions and the institutional approach are more important than community-based care. We categorically reject that.

Finally, it is with some amusement that I listen to the Conservatives as they do a little jumping up and down when reminded that they received approximately $90,000 a year from nursing home operators. That is perhaps what blocked any real reform to nursing home care in this province.

Hon. Mr. Ruprecht: I rise to ask unanimous consent of the House to mark a special event which is of great significance to the Italian community.

Mr. Speaker: Unanimous consent has been given.

ITALIAN NATIONAL REPUBLIC DAY

Hon. Mr. Ruprecht: On behalf of the Premier (Mr. Peterson) and the government of Ontario, I rise for the purpose of recognizing an important event that took place on this day 41 years ago, June 2, 1946, the establishment of the Democratic Republic of Italy.

To celebrate this day, I am honoured to recognize in the gallery representatives of the Italian government and leaders of the Italian-Canadian community, Dr. Massimo Machia, the Consul General of Italy; Dr. Gregory Grande, the president of the National Congress of Italian Canadians, Toronto district; Manlio d'Ambrosio, the president of the Ontario region of the national congress; Angelo Delfino, first vice-president of the national congress; and other distinguished leaders.

[Remarks in Italian]

That day, June 2, 1946, is of great significance and sentimental value to our citizens of Italian heritage and to the people of Italy, a country not only of monumental buildings, famous explorers and noted scientists, but also a trusted friend and ally, a loyal trading partner and a committed supporter of democratic and civil rights around the world.

We recognize the valuable contribution Italo-Canadians have made to the cultural and economic development of Ontario and Canada. Our province has become enriched because our Italian friends, on coming here, have brought with them their love of art, music, architecture and education. More than that, they have strengthened the pillars of our multicultural society by adding their traditional respect for hard work and family life.

We have benefited greatly from their participation in sports, business, the professions and, more recently, government and law. Therefore, I invite the members of this House to join me in congratulating the worldwide Italian community on this very special day. Thank you very much.

I would appreciate that maybe some time in the future we may review the standing orders which in the past have allowed us to address the House in various languages, so that this be reviewed. If it means providing more money for Hansard, I think it should be provided.

I welcome Greg Grande, the Toronto president of the National Congress of Italian Canadians; Manlio d'Ambrosio, the president of the Ontario region; Angelo Delfino, the national vice-president; the consul general and all the members of the delegation representing various organizations federated with the National Congress of Italian Canadians.

I would like to point out that it is on occasions such as these that we also point out the vast contribution of Canadians of Italian origin to the prosperity of our country.

I would like to bring to the attention of the honourable members that perhaps there could be a three-party agreement some time in the very near future to give consideration to the passage of a resolution under item 12 in Orders and Notices which would recognize the Italian community's immeasurable contribution, as I have said, to the development, growth and prosperity of Ontario in a very symbolic and concrete way by allowing for the erection of a statue of Giovanni Caboto, whose 500th anniversary will be celebrated very soon, on the grounds of the parliament of Ontario as recognition of the fact that Canada is a land of immigrants that we respect and will continue to be one for centuries to come, as it began with the discovery by someone who represents the best of civilization and the contribution of the Italian nation.

I thank you, Mr. Speaker, for the opportunity of addressing these few words and I hope that on June 24, when we celebrate the anniversary of 490 years of the landing of Giovanni Caboto, this resolution will be given some consideration.

Hon. Mr. Nixon: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: I do not recall the exact words that the honourable member used, but my understanding was that he indicated the Italian language was unworthy of being reproduced in our Hansard. I would say to the member for High Park-Swansea that his comments are totally unworthy and that no member of this House except perhaps the honourable member would ever say such a thing.

Mr. Brandt: That isn't what he said at all. You know that as well as I do. You're taking a cheap shot.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order. I do not know if that was a point of order or not.

Interjection.

Mr. Speaker: On a point of order -- is it the same point?

Mr. Harris: Mr. Speaker, you ruled that was not a point of order, so I assumed I had to --

Mr. Speaker: No, I asked him if he was standing on a point of order.

Mr. Harris: I will stand on a point of privilege then and try it that way, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if you think the term "dipstick" is parliamentary and if not, would you ask the Treasurer to withdraw it.

Hon. Mr. Nixon: Without being asked, I certainly withdraw my view that the honourable member is a dipstick.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order. There appears to be an unnecessary discussion.

Mr. Rae: I do not know whether there is an Italian translation for that, but I am sure we will find one.

Mr. Cordiano: Try it.

Mr. Rae: I will in a moment. First of all, I want to say that any political system in which the leader of the third party becomes Prime Minister is one that has much to commend it and certainly would win support on this side of the House --

Interjections.

Mr. Rae: -- to say nothing of President Pertini. But let me say in a serious moment that when we celebrate this particular day we are of course celebrating not only the 40th anniversary of the declaration of the Italian republic but also -- and I think I can speak for a great many citizens of this province -- the extraordinary contribution the Italian community has made to the life of our great country.

I can honestly say my own life and my own party have been completely enriched by the presence of the Italian community in our midst. It would be impossible for us to think of Ontario and Toronto, and indeed Canada, without also thinking of the enormous contribution Italian men and women have made to the quality of life in our country and in our family.

I want to say how very delighted I am to be able to say a few words in a language that perhaps one day can be translated in Hansard but which I know will be understood by all those who have an Italian heart, which I hope is the vast majority of us here.

[Remarks in Italian]

ORAL QUESTIONS

CONSTITUTIONAL DISCUSSIONS

Mr. Grossman: I have a question for the Minister of Citizenship and Culture. I wonder if the minister could tell us by what number Quebec's share of total Canadian immigration would have to be increased to honour the guarantees the Premier (Mr. Peterson) agreed to in the Meech Lake accord?

Hon. Ms. Munro: I think it is quite inappropriate for me to speak up on the occasion on which the Premier is taking

part in the Meech Lake accord debates. I can tell the honourable member I have had very good discussions with the Minister of State for Immigration, however, and would prefer to wait until the Premier comes back to answer that question.

Mr. Grossman: I did not go so far as to ask the minister actually to have an opinion, heaven forbid, on the accord or its impact on the multicultural community which she is supposed to serve. I am only asking her for the basic information flowing out of the Meech Lake accord, as already signed by her Premier a couple of weeks ago.

My question to the minister, whose responsibility it is to oversee multiculturalism and citizenship and to ensure there is an ability for families to reunite, is by how many people Quebec's share of total Canadian immigration would have to increase in order to honour the guarantee her Premier has already agreed to. How many people?

Hon. Ms. Munro: I am sorry I cannot give the member that accurate information, but if he is worrying about whether I have any opinions, God forbid, I can tell him I do.

Mr. Grossman: Well then, we will wonder about the impact those opinions might have.

Yesterday in this House we offered the figure. Had the minister even been kind enough or interested enough to follow up on the questions we raised yesterday in this House, she would know that the impact of the Meech Lake accord would mean that 8,000 persons who were allowed to immigrate into Canada, outside of Quebec, would not be allowed to do that under the Meech Lake accord and therefore would have to be sent to and required to live in Quebec.

Given that fact, my question to the minister is this: how can she defend the interests of, say, the Chinese and Portuguese communities, to name just two, and the Italian community, whose representatives have just left the chamber, acknowledging the fact that the Meech Lake accord will have the impact of denying the opportunity for perhaps as many as 8,000 of their relatives to reunite in Ontario and force them instead to go to Quebec? How can she justify her position and her government's position defending multiculturalism when that will be one of the impacts of the Meech Lake accord?

Hon. Ms. Munro: I think the honourable member knows that the Premier has answered those questions, and I think his answers are accurate.

Mr. Grossman: He certainly has not.

Hon. Ms. Munro: All right then; that is all the information he feels he is allowed to divulge to the member at this moment.

Mr. Grossman: He did not even know the information.

Hon. Ms. Munro: Listen, if the member wants an answer, I will give it to him. As far as I am concerned, when Quebec enters into those kinds of special requests, it does not stop any immigrant from having any of his rights and being transferred to other provinces or from wanting to access other provinces.

Interjections.

Hon. Ms. Munro: I do not know what else he means in terms of equal rights to other multicultural groups. Maybe he would like to continue that question.

FUND-RAISING

Mr. Pope: Since the Premier (Mr. Peterson) on matters governing the conduct of his cabinet and his ministers and matters of ethics, has again refused to accept any responsibility for the conduct of his ministers, refused to set standards and refused to indicate any kind of knowledge on his part --

Mr. Speaker: Which minister are you asking?

Mr. Pope: -- when some of these difficult matters come to pass, I have a question for the Minister of Health concerning the details of his fund-raiser scheduled for June 15.

There are a number of issues that arise from this whole matter, such as: who prepared the invitations and who sent them out, where were they sent from and by whom; how many people in the health care field were invited; and where did the mailing list come from? I think the members of this chamber and the people of Ontario are entitled to an explanation. Can the minister give an explanation for this?

Hon. Mr. Elston: With respect to the fund-raiser, which is indeed being held on June 15, the actual list of names of people who have been invited is not known to me. I did not participate in selecting them. However, they were prepared by people who work in my office and by people who are in my constituency. More people, who wish to be invited, have contacted my office requesting extra invitations and we are mailing them out. I have looked at where those things were prepared. They were prepared by people who work with me in my constituency and in my Toronto office. They were mailed out to a lot of people around Ontario.

Mr. Pope: It is clear that we now have a Premier with no knowledge of this matter and a minister, in whose name the invitations were sent, with no knowledge of this matter. That is the strategy of the Liberal government of the day. No one knows anything about it, but it was done. That is the responsibility of the Premier and this cabinet on this matter.

Mr. Speaker: Supplementary.

Mr. Pope: The minister spent $30,000 in his election campaign. He has $11,000 in his own constituency funds. He is entitled to over $8,000 in public subsidies already. When he needs at the most $20,000 for the next election campaign, if it were called today, why did he set a target of $200,000 if it is only for his use? Why did he set a target of $200,000 for fund-raising for his own riding association if it was not part of a Liberal scheme?

Hon. Mr. Elston: The role of the member, in addition to being a member of the cabinet, is to work on behalf of the party for the reselection of his colleagues and himself. I can tell the honourable gentleman that in terms of preparing for another election, which is probably going to come soon, finances are needed throughout the party structure and throughout my constituency to ensure that an adequate election campaign is run. It is part of the system.

I take my responsibilities as a cabinet member, as a member of this party and as a member of the political system as being to do what is required to gain reselection for a party that has shown it can provide progressive reform for the people of this province. I will wish to maintain that position and we will wish to continue to ensure that more reform is provided for our system in Ontario.

Mr. Pope: Now we have a clear view of the Liberal concept of open government. First, they had the Liberal Economic Advisory Forum, which sold access to the Premier for $1,000. They had the then Chairman of Management Board selling access for $250 a person for a breakfast. They had the Attorney General (Mr. Scott) inviting lawyers in the Ottawa region to have a glass of wine with him for $200. Now we have the Minister of Health sending invitations to those involved in the health care field for $200.

Mr. Speaker: And the question?

Mr. Pope: We now know that publicly paid employees of his ministry were involved. We now have the Queen's Park frank on invitations being sent out. We have invitations on government letterhead, not Ontario Liberal letterhead. We have references to the Minister of Health as sending the invitation; MPP and nothing else in there about his riding association. When are they, as Liberals, going to clean up their act?

Hon. Mr. Elston: The honourable gentleman has pointed out several pieces of information that I am sure he would like the public to have clarification on. That is not, of course, government letterhead. He knows that as well as I do. People use the crest of Ontario for a number of their mailings. The member knows that is true and the people of Ontario know it is true.

People would also like to know, when the member talks about the invitations having been franked, that I did discover that had occurred and that the very day it happened I reimbursed the people for the error that had been made. I take great exception to the implication that is being left by that gentleman that there is something improper with respect to fund-raising. This particular man has put aside for these purposes a very big amount of money to do stuff like running for leadership of his own party.

I am not running for leadership of my party. We have the best leader in this House. We have a leader who needs to be retained in Ontario to provide the very strong and very reform-minded policies which are moving this province well ahead of any other jurisdictions in this country. I will match this party against those other two parties at any time, but I am going to be prepared to do that on the basis of a very sound program and policies which we can put in front of the people of this province.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

Mr. Rae: I have a question for the Minister of Labour. The minister may be aware that on May 13 a young man by the name of Anthony Medeiros was working on a demolition site at 700 Lawrence Avenue here in Toronto. He was apparently told by the company to strip completely the walls of a particular part of the site.

He had removed a number of electrical wiring boxes; when he removed the last one, he discovered the power had not been cut. He received a shock of about 600 volts to 700 volts which threw him to the floor. Our information is that those around him, including his foreman, did not know how to turn off the electrical unit and that there was a delay of somewhere between 15 and 20 minutes before emergency arrived. The other workers were unable to disconnect the wiring that Mr. Medeiros was holding, and Mr. Medeiros died.

My question to the minister is this. This is, alas, not an exceptional event in Toronto today. We know of another instance where a worker magically survived a shock of 27,000 volts because he was sitting in a forklift truck. I wonder if the minister can explain how this is happening today in Toronto and precisely what kind of prosecutorial action his ministry is taking with respect to this particular accident.

Hon. Mr. Wrye: I would have to check into the specifics of the point our investigation is at. I am not familiar offhand. There are a great number of these incidents and I can remember most of them, but quite candidly I say to the member, while it is vaguely familiar to me, I am not aware of the specifics.

I do not have any report for him, other than that the matter is under investigation, but I would expect that out of this case there would be an inquest called into this fatality and arising out of that inquest, once that inquest was completed, a determination would be made by the ministry. There would be recommendations as to whether to prosecute, which would begin with the construction health and safety branch and eventually would find their way to the legal services branch and would indeed be reviewed by senior officials up to and including the Deputy Minister of Labour.

That is the normal course of events whenever there is a fatality. Those matters go through that kind of very serious and senior scrutiny even if the recommendation is against prosecution. I can say to the honourable member that certainly any fatality is a very tragic case, and very clearly we have to do more. We have to do better than we have done before in terms of ensuring that the kind of training that might have prevented this tragedy, and indeed would have prevented this tragedy, is the kind of training given to each and every worker.

I can assure the House and the honourable member that if prosecution in this case or any other is warranted, that prosecution will be undertaken without any qualms at all.

Mr. Rae: It is interesting that the minister would describe a normal course of events which only yesterday his colleague the Attorney General (Mr. Scott) said was not going to be what was going to take place in Sudbury with respect to Joe Kuhle. We seem to have a clear double standard here when it comes to prosecutions and a clear double standard in terms of justice for ordinary workers in this province.

I am surprised the minister would not be better informed about this accident for the simple reason that on May 22, 1987, he received a letter from the secretary-treasurer of Local 506 of the Labourers' International Union of North America, Mr. Barbieri, who says:

"Representing 300 demolition workers, we are concerned with the number of accidents occurring within the industry. The basis of our concern is the apparent lack of safety regard coupled with a high number of serious accidents. We are also unsatisfied with the infrequent safety inspections of job sites." He goes on to say: "More recently, we are appalled at the bizarre and unfortunate death of Mr. Medeiros, an employee in this industry working at a demolition site at 700 Lawrence Avenue, Toronto."

If this letter was sent out on May 22, can the minister explain why he is so blissfully and abysmally ignorant of this situation when I ask him today, some 10 days after the letter was sent?

Hon. Mr. Wrye: First, I get just a little tired at the suggestions which emanate from over there that somehow over on this side there is a double standard and the suggestion is left that there is some responsibility over here, whether it is with me or with my colleague the Attorney General, for some so-called double standard. I would have expected from the leader of the third party, who is himself a lawyer, some greater degree of understanding of the differences and the intricacies of the criminal justice system than I have heard in the last couple of days. I really would have expected that.

I can say to the honourable gentleman that the letter has not been brought to my attention. Undoubtedly it will be. I regret that yesterday, as the honourable member knows, I left question period a little early and returned home. It may well now be sitting on my desk but I did not get to it last night. I will get to all of the mail that is on my desk but undoubtedly, if the letter has been received, it has already been sent out to two senior officials for their review, and not only will I expect to be able to see the letter tonight but a preliminary observation from my senior officials. So action has been ongoing ever since the letter was received.

Mr. Rae: I do not really care whether the minister is tired of something or not. It is the workers who are getting killed, not the minister, and it is time he started to recognize that he has a problem on his hands and he is not on top of it.

What I want to know is why, as soon as he heard about that particular incident, the minister did not demand an immediate report with respect not only to this accident but to the other accidents that are taking place on demolition sites and make sure that every step was taken and that every step will be taken? Does the minister know whether the same practice is going on today? Does he know whether the workers are informed? Does he know whether the company is doing anything? He does not know anything about it. He just gets up and says he is tired because people are asking him questions he does not want to answer. That is his problem.

Hon. Mr. Wrye: That is exactly what the senior officials of the ministry will be asking and demanding, not only from the inspector but also from the manager of the region, from the head of the construction health and safety branch and indeed from the executive director of the division. This government, through the generosity of the Treasurer (Mr. Nixon), has placed more resources at my disposal than we have ever had before. We are hiring --

Mr. Rae: You have fewer construction inspectors than you had in 1981.

Hon. Mr. Wrye: Pipe down for a minute.

Frankly, the ridiculous lectures from over on that side of the House really get a little tiring after a while. We are making every effort to reduce the number of injuries and to eliminate the fatalities in the work place. There is nothing about a fatality or indeed about any kind of an injury that makes me or any member on this side of the House happy. We have taken as much action as we can and will take more to attempt to eliminate that problem. I rather resent the suggestion we are not doing our job.

ASSISTANCE FOR THE DISABLED

Mr. R. F. Johnston: I have a question for the Minister of Community and Social Services. Can the minister confirm that the following facts are true: that by the end of this year there will still be a $286-a-month difference between the income of a disabled person living at home with family and an elderly person living at home with family in this province, and that in fact the annual income of that disabled person this year will be $5,328 -- one half of the 1986 poverty line?

Hon. Mr. Sweeney: The honourable member will know that the amount of money that is made available to disabled people depends upon their needs. Obviously, those living at home have fewer needs than those living out in subsidized housing or the private market. There is a range of pension ceilings. I cannot confirm the exact figure, but the member is very close to the right answer.

Mr. R. F. Johnston: I am trying to point out that we deal with disabled people very differently than we deal with the elderly, whom we do not treat in that discriminatory fashion.

Can the minister confirm that by the end of this year he will have closed the gap between the disabled person and the elderly person by only $22, given the fact that there is indexing of the seniors' incomes and that the total cost to the provincial Treasury will be only $10.5 million this year when we have this huge surplus? Can the minister tell me what he will say to people like Gino and Susan Adamo, who are living on $419 a month at this point, or Jean Newson, who is in subsidized housing living on $458 a month?

Hon. Mr. Sweeney: The recent announcement by the Treasurer (Mr. Nixon) that all disabled people in the province would get an additional $50 a month would indicate that, in fact, it would be more than what the member suggested.

I would also point out to him that there are other services available to disabled people that are not available to the elderly and that has to be factored into the question as well. The member knows that vocational rehabilitation services are available. The member knows that the disabled person is able to earn income that is not deducted from his pension, which is not the case with the elderly. He has to take the total package into consideration.

Mr. R. F. Johnston: The minister also knows that the elderly get a property tax break and other breaks that the disabled do not get, if he wants to compare lists.

Does he not think it is maybe even counter to the Charter of Rights that a permanently disabled person who is 64 years of age this June will receive $419 a month, and when he turns 65 this July he will be eligible for $740?

Hon. Mr. Sweeney: The member should also keep in mind that the eligibility for seniors is part of the federal program. It is not just the provincial program. The member will be aware of the fact that once a person turns 65, in the provincial program for seniors the additional benefits are available only to those who cannot qualify for the federal programs. He is talking on two different bases.

Mr. Speaker: New question. The Leader of the Opposition.

Mr. Grossman: The fact is this minister funded that with the cheques taken out of the pockets of 13,000 other disabled people in the province. What he did is a disgrace.

Mr. Speaker: Order. You have a question to which minister?

CONSTITUTIONAL DISCUSSIONS

Mr. Grossman: My question is to the Minister of Citizenship and Culture, once again.

How does the minister feel about the Meech Lake accord, which will end up, as one reads the document, in having the province of Quebec go out and find immigrants in countries that will be more compatible with the environment in Quebec and thus mean that fewer people will be invited or allowed to come to Canada from Italy, China, Hong Kong and Portugal?

Hon. Ms. Munro: I do not read the implications the way the Leader of the Opposition does. In fact, various people who decide to immigrate, or for whom Quebec reaches out, come to Quebec and are welcome to stay there but are also welcome to transfer to other provinces.

The member will know that Quebec has already entered into different kinds of policy arrangements with the federal government, so I think to compare that with the implications of the Meech Lake accord is quite inaccurate at this point.

Mr. Grossman: The minister does not know what she is talking about.

Hon. Ms. Munro: The member does not understand that? No? That is unfortunate. Maybe I should just sit down.

Finally, I would like to impress on the member that the Premier (Mr. Peterson) and other Premiers are entering into confidential discussions today. It would be quite inappropriate for me to comment any further on that question.

Mr. Grossman: In part because of the signature of one of the architects of the accord, the Premier of Ontario, there is no question but that family reunification in the Portuguese, Italian and Chinese communities is going to be inhibited on the basis of the admitted accord provisions signed by the member's Premier.

Mr. Cordiano: Oh, come on. There is nothing there that was not there before.

Mr. Grossman: The member for Downsview (Mr. Cordiano) should go and explain to the Italian community where those 8,000 immigrants are going to come from. Why does the member not do his job for once and stand up to his Premier on behalf of his constituents?

My question to the minister is this. Given that Quebec, under this agreement, will be given the opportunity to go out and locate immigrants more compatible to Quebec's environment than to that of Ontario and the rest of the country, is she going to contemplate entering into a similar arrangement with the federal government, as the Meech Lake accord allows her to do, to ensure that Ontario maintains its current level of immigration into Ontario? Is she going to do that to protect the immigrants here?

Hon. Ms. Munro: I would like to repeat myself on three things. Right now Quebec has already entered into different kinds of policy arrangements with the federal government on issues of immigration policy and procedures. Second, the question of reunification is being addressed in the current legislation of the federal government before the House now, and this government has already advised and is taking issue with certain of those considerations. Third, I will say to the member again --

Mr. Grossman: You have cut off thousands of families.

Hon. Ms. Munro: Does he want the answer? The Premiers, in consultation with the Prime Minister of the country, are looking at the Meech Lake accord as a way in which constitutional rights can be accorded to Quebec in a way in which we, as provinces, can look more sensitively at the whole question of immigration and refugee determination.

Mr. Grossman: They give away 8,000 immigrants a year. Wave them goodbye.

Mr. Speaker: Order. The Leader of the Opposition has asked his question.

WORKERS' COMPENSATION

Mr. McClellan: I have a question of the Minister of Labour. I have here a copy of a decision of the Workers' Compensation Appeals Tribunal. It is decision 12, dated October 3, 1986. It involves a 50-year-old Italian-Canadian woman who worked as a cashier in a grocery store. The tribunal ruled as follows: "The appeal is allowed. The WCB is directed to recognize the worker's disability and assess the worker for a permanent disability award to be made retroactive."

Can the minister explain to us why the Workers' Compensation Board has indicated that because it does not like this decision and because it does not agree with the decision of the tribunal, it has held up the payment of this award for eight months now?

Hon. Mr. Wrye: I think the honourable member will understand that I do not have that information immediately at hand. I was not aware that the WCB had held up that decision. I will look into the matter immediately and report back to him.

Mr. McClellan: Yesterday, I raised the case of decision 72 involving the definition of "injury by accident," which the Workers' Compensation Board does not like either and which it now is planning to try to overturn by means of its own kangaroo court that I believe starts tomorrow.

Is the minister going to continue to sit by and do nothing while the Workers' Compensation Board systematically tries to destroy the integrity and independence of the appeals tribunal? Is he going to take action? If so, what action is he going to take to protect the tribunal and to prevent the Workers' Compensation Board from destroying it?

Hon. Mr. Wrye: Let us separate the two issues. The matter of an appeal --

Mr. McClellan: They are exactly the same issue.

Hon. Mr. Wrye: The honourable gentleman suggests they are the same. With respect, they are not. For members who do not know, on decision 72 the independent board has chosen to review that matter and has voted to do so. That review will begin on Thursday and continue on Friday of this week. That is entirely within the rights of the board as contemplated by this Legislature in the passage of

section 86n of the Workers' Compensation Act.

In terms of decision 12, the honourable member raises what I consider and what I take to be a very serious question. He has raised with me and with this House the question of an apparent decision ordering the board to assess an injured worker for a permanent partial disability and, according to the honourable gentleman, action has not been taken for more than eight months.

I am going to look into that matter on a most urgent basis because, as far as I know, while that decision was considered to be a fairly controversial one, and I remember it by number as a very controversial one, there has been no decision by the board of directors of the WCB to review that decision in any way. On the face of it, it seems to me they should be getting on with doing exactly what the tribunal asked them to do several months ago.

FUND-RAISING

Mr. Pope: My question is back to the Minister of Health with respect to his fund-raising activities that are being arranged by publicly paid staff, using the franking privileges of Queen's Park and using government logos on the invitation.

In the light of the minister's earlier answers, I would like him to explain how this invitation, which I have in my hand, was sent to Bernard Reynolds, chairman of the board of Huntsville District Memorial Hospital, unless it was taken from a Ministry of Health list?

Hon. Mr. Elston: I do not know to whom that letter was sent. I do not know the names of all the people who received letters. I will check into it, if the member wishes to send it over, and I can find out how the letter was sent out.

At this stage, I wish to say I already commented on the question of the franking. I did find out about that and reimbursed the public. That was not appropriate and, in fact, I reimbursed the people when I found out the franking had been done.

Mr. Pope: It is clear that the Liberals have looted the mailing lists of every ministry in this government and are using them for partisan purposes. They are abusing government privileges. They are using government logos. They are using government franking privileges. They are using publicly paid government staff.

Just to help the minister with his explanation, Bernard Reynolds is not only chairman of the board of Huntsville hospital, for 15 years he has been the chief financial officer for the member for Muskoka (Mr. F. S. Miller). There is no way he was on a Liberal list. Now we want an explanation as to what the minister is doing.

Hon. Mr. Elston: I have found that the people in Ontario have been very open to our reform- minded policies and programs and people from all across the province are wishing to come and support a party which is in fact providing leadership, which they had not had for a long time. It may be that particular people in Muskoka are much less happy with the current leadership of the Tory party. In fact, they may even be leaving, in droves, those people across the way who used to be in government.

In my mind, our party will be open to all people to participate in programs, whatever they may be. I hold meetings on all occasions. People request meetings. In fact, I will entertain requests from all people who wish to attend my meetings. I will not discriminate on political allegiances or alliances. Anybody is welcome.

If the gentleman whom you mentioned was working with the gentleman from Muskoka who is retiring and who is, unfortunately, no longer required by that party or whatever, he is welcome to attend, as anybody is. Just to repeat something that was also said, anybody who has received an invitation is likewise free not to attend.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. Pope: On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker: I would ask you to review the comments of the Minister of Health (Mr. Elston) today in question period to determine their veracity.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Hon. Mr. Riddell: There is a court jester in every crowd.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Sometimes we get a little overexcited.

GOVERNMENT PROCUREMENT

Mr. Laughren: I have a question for the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology concerning the government policy of purchasing imported goods, rather than domestically produced goods, a policy which is costing Ontario approximately 150,000 jobs a year.

I wonder if the minister can recall the policy that his party had when in opposition. If he cannot, I will try to prod his memory. It went as follows: "A Liberal government in Ontario would undertake all of its purchasing, wherever possible and reasonable, from Canadian-controlled firms. These firms would receive preferential treatment as to price. This preference could extend to as much as 40 per cent."

Could the minister tell us why that was a policy when in opposition and why now there appears to be no policy at all in this regard?

Hon. Mr. O'Neil: I might say to the member I realize a question like that was asked last week. At the time the question was asked I was attending a procurement ministers' meeting in Ottawa, and I can tell the member that it is still our aim to procure more of those supplies from within Canada, rather than outside.

Mr. Laughren: I wonder if I could repeat part of my question and ask the minister why it is that it was a policy when in opposition and it is not a policy when in government. At the conference the minister was at, one of the background papers he released when he went to that conference stated that out of 55,000 suppliers on the list for government purchasing, the 10 per cent preferential treatment given to domestic suppliers was used in only 20 cases.

How in the world can he claim that he has any kind of government procurement policy when he knows that, according to his own reports, this is the only industrialized country that does not use government procurement as an economic development policy. Why is that?

Hon. Mr. O'Neil: The member is not totally correct, because we do use government purchases as part of that program.

I can assure him besides that in the procurement area, my ministry is very interested in doing some of the things he has mentioned. We run such things as reverse trade shows where we identify products that can or should be purchased here in the province and in Canada, rather than outside. We are working towards those aims, which are excellent aims.

DELAY IN SENTENCING

Mr. Andrewes: My question is to the Solicitor General. It concerns a North York man who seriously injured a young woman in a car accident and subsequently pleaded guilty to charges of impaired driving and leaving the scene of the accident.

When this gentleman appeared in court, Judge Frank Dunlap, we understand, delayed sentencing him to convenience his recreational plans. I wonder how this affects the credibility of the government's drinking and driving program, when members of the Ontario judiciary treat a very serious breach of the law so frivolously.

Hon. Mr. Keyes: May I simply suggest that the issue is one more appropriately directed to the Attorney General (Mr. Scott)? If I may be permitted to comment -- the minister is not here today; he is in Ottawa -- but he has asked to see a transcript of the remarks from the judge with regard to that delay in sentencing and he has expressed his concern about the effect it does have on the drinking and driving program.

Mr. Andrewes: With respect, I would have been delighted to address this question to the Attorney General but there is someone else in his seat. That is not him.

I have constituents coming into my office who are asking for a stay in the suspension of a driver's licence so they can complete their harvest -- the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Riddell) will understand that -- so they can carry on their business, so they can put bread on the table, so they can support their families. We have a man who now wants a stay in his sentencing and a judge who has assented to that stay so he can go to a ball game.

Does the Solicitor General think that is fair? Does he think it is reasonable? Does he think it is equitable?

Mr. Brandt: It is ludicrous, that is what it is.

Hon. Mr. Keyes: I am quite happy to concur with the remarks from the member for Lincoln (Mr. Andrewes) that it does throw some rather difficult views on the whole enforcement of the drinking and driving program we have had in the province. I can assure him that when the Attorney General returns and he has reviewed the transcript from the judge, potentially, further action may well be taken.

DOCTORS' BILLING PRACTICES

Mr. D. S. Cooke: I have a question of the Minister of Health. In view of the fact it is almost a year since we passed Bill 94, a bill that was supposed to ban extra billing in Ontario, why is it that the minister has reimbursed patients $17,055, where 247 patients have clearly been extra billed or he would not have reimbursed them, yet at the same time not one doctor has been charged by his ministry for breaking the law, Bill 94? Does he have a double standard in this province that doctors can get away with breaking the law and others cannot?

Hon. Mr. Elston: The primary goal of Bill 94, of course, was to provide us with mechanisms whereby people who were disadvantaged by extra billing could be reimbursed, and in fact we are doing that. We then seek to recover from those people the money where they did extra bill. We are proceeding to do that, and in many of those cases we are clearing up some misunderstandings as to what are problems under the legislation.

Mr. D. S. Cooke: It is a pretty stupid system when the minister says if you break the law the most you are going to have to pay is exactly what you have extra billed. Where is the deterrent?

I would like to ask the minister how he can possibly say this process is working when Dr. Marshall Barkin at Mount Sinai is charging a $500 standby fee and when Dr. Sheldon Herzig is charging a $200 administrative fee for the eye surgery that he carries out, for such things as documentation to arrange the surgery with the hospital, a pre-operative report, an operative report and a post-operative communication with the family doctor? He is charging a $200 administrative fee for all these things.

When is the minister going to get serious and start charging the doctors who are breaking this law in the province?

Hon. Mr. Elston: The honourable gentleman knows that when situations or specifics of charges are made available to us, we make determinations with respect to whether there are extra billings being made. We then make a decision about how a declaration received from the patient is reviewed and perceived, and then we reimburse a patient if in fact those charges are extra billing. We are doing that.

We then proceed to recover from the physician and charge an administrative cost for our work in terms of pursuing, and sometimes we are able to clarify the administration under the act and solve some problems for the profession, that then are not repeated.

ACID RAIN

Mr. Polsinelli: According to public reports filed recently in the United States, a lobby group called Citizens for Sensible Control of Acid Rain spent more than $3 million last year in fighting proposed acid rain controls in the US Congress. Can the minister tell us what effect this effort has had on the evolution of stricter emission controls in the United States and if it has had any effect on the minister's efforts to achieve, in co-operation with his American counterparts, more effective controls on acid rain?

Hon. Mr. Bradley: The question, I think, related to acid rain?

Interjections.

Hon. Mr. Bradley: I know the question did not relate to the $15,000 that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Grossman), when he was a minister, provided to Moe Carter to race in Europe, but it did relate to acid rain, and the honourable member said there was a major lobbying effort in the United States.

Mr. Martel: You are on thin ice. I can tell by the way you started.

Hon. Mr. Bradley: They fire these things over here and they expect nothing is coming back.

Mr. Andrewes: Tell us about Abe Schwartz before you get started. Remember the guy? Tell us about Murray's party.

Hon. Mr. Bradley: I know that is old news.

Mr. Andrewes: What are they serving at Murray's party?

Mr. Rowe: Is René going to fly in?

Mr. Speaker: Order. I believe the member for Yorkview (Mr. Polsinelli) had asked a question. You could probably direct your remarks through the chair.

Hon. Mr. Bradley: Yes, I will try to answer the question. I think it was related to the coal lobby within the United States and others who were in opposition to that.

The counteraction comes from two particular sources. First, it comes from Environment Canada and the national government, which undertake a communication through diplomatic channels with those in the United States in an attempt to counteract this kind of information. It is usually funnelled through the embassy in Washington and through the ambassador.

In addition to that, we as a provincial ministry are represented on a number of occasions in the United States to present the case for the province of Ontario as to what we have done and what we would like the Americans to do.

Mr. Grossman: Claudio, tell him that is tomorrow's question he is answering.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. Polsinelli: I think the minister has perhaps failed to address the crux of my question. Perhaps I could read to him, as a supplementary --

Ms. Fish: Send him the right note, will you. Turn the page.

Mr. Grossman: He got the wrong envelope.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. Polsinelli: I would like to read to the minister the first and last paragraphs of the Globe and Mail article. The first paragraph is, "An industry-supported group spent more than $3 million" -- and this is US dollars -- "lobbying against proposed acid rain controls in the United States Congress last year." The last paragraph is, "Pollution controls bills were stalled in congressional debates last year."

Can the minister tell me what effect this $3 million in lobbying efforts from industry-sponsored lobbyists in the United States had on our controls and on the effort he has been making with his American counterparts to have more effective controls?

Hon. Mr. Bradley: I must say the supplementary was as good as the original question; excellent supplementary, excellent original question.

Of course, we are optimistic that there are a number of people within the United States Congress, both on the House side and on the Senate side, who are desirous of acid rain abatement legislation. Despite the efforts of those who are opposed to it, the coal industry and others, we have found people have been spurred on by the kind of support they have had, both in the United States and here in Canada, particularly in Ontario.

Of course, when we were represented at the National Sportsmen's Show in New York City, that was widely covered in the United States. There have been a number of opportunities for those of us in the province of Ontario from the Ministry of the Environment to make the case and in every instance, rather than a resentment on the part of our American friends, what we have found was that there was encouragement from them to continue our activities and to explain our programs south of the border.

We invite our American friends to undertake activities that are as environmentally desirable as those we are undertaking. We look forward to the assistance of the federal government in this, and I am assured that in fact it has been pleased to offer that assistance to us whenever we have inquired.

ONTARIO HYDRO RATES IN NORTHERN ONTARIO

Mr. Gordon: I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Energy. When is the minister going to put bread back into the mouths of people who live in northern Ontario? At the present time we have 20,000 workers who have lost their jobs over the past couple of years. In Sudbury we are looking at anywhere from 700 to 1,000 jobs being lost from Inco by 1990, and yet the minister is not willing to lower hydro rates in northern Ontario to produce more jobs. When is he going to act?

Hon. Mr. Kerrio: We certainly are acting and we are acting in a very positive way. We have set up a board to examine the possibilities of using hydro rates as an economic benefit tool in northern Ontario. We have set up a board that is going to react to the kind of questions the member is raising.

It is very odd that this is the first time this has ever happened, after 40 years of the Conservatives governing without ever responding to the problems in northern Ontario. Believe me, it is happening now and we are doing many other things. We are moving my forestry department north. We are going to move 1,200 jobs north. We are doing all kinds of things that are going to benefit northern Ontario.

In fact, there is a great feeling in northern Ontario now that they are going to play a full role in the province. They are not going to be considered very remote, but they are going to play a full role in the economic benefits that are flowing from the Nixon boom.

Mr. Gordon: Perhaps we do not have as many farms as they do down in southern Ontario, but I think even in the north we would call that manure. Where was the minister when it came to lowering gas prices in northern Ontario? It seems to me that he is the minister who is responsible for those high gas prices and he has done nothing. When is he going to do something about that?

More important and to the point, the minister says he is for the north. Where is that treatment centre for prisoners that was promised to Sudbury? We do not see that. More important -- and what we are talking about is energy -- when is the minister going to act to lower hydro rates in northern Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Kerrio: I have already answered the question. The member asked two or three that should have been directed to other ministers.

As the Minister of Energy and the Minister of Natural Resources, I want to share something with the member. The fact of the matter is that for the first time we have opened two hydraulic plants in northern Ontario. That has not happened in many years. We are going to open many more hydraulic plants across northern Ontario. We are going to build roads there with money that the Treasurer (Mr. Nixon) is flowing to Ontario. We are going to move things to northern Ontario. We are doing things that have never been done before.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Hon. Mr. Kerrio: Mr. Speaker, the man is badly informed.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order. I would like to remind all members that the members of this House are responsible for their standing orders. They are the ones who set the standing orders. I have said that one member should be recognized to speak each time and one only. I think quite a few members have been speaking recently.

Mr. Gordon: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: I want to make this point of order very clear to you. It is on standing order 36, and that is the one that says you cannot charge higher gas prices and say you are paying for the roads.

Mr. Speaker: I would suggest that your House leader probably show you the book.

RAILCAR INDUSTRY

Mr. Mackenzie: I have a question of the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology. Is the minister aware of the very real concerns of the steelworkers in Hamilton at National Steel Car, and in Trenton and Montreal, concerning the future of the railcar industry in Canada and whether the remaining greatly reduced work force, as well as the very future of the industry itself, will survive? Is he aware that in their meetings with the federal government recently, the very clear impression was left with the workers that their industry was one of the chips in the free trade talks that are going on right now?

Hon. Mr. O'Neil: I know of the member's concern in this matter. I can say to him that it is also a concern of ours. We are keeping a very close watch on what is happening with this. We are in very close touch with the federal government concerning these matters and the protection of those jobs.

Mr. Mackenzie: I might wonder what effect the minister is having then on the federal government.

Does the minister not realize that it is cheaper to bring a railcar into the country, keep it for the 90 days allowed under the permit and pay a $40-a-month rental fee from then on if one wants to keep the car here -- a similar circumstance which does exist if we send our cars out of the country -- and that this is preventing the building of new cars, along with a number of other things?

Can the minister tell us what he is prepared to do in the way of interventions with his federal colleagues to see that this industry does remain a viable one, given the importance of rail in Canada?

Hon. Mr. O'Neil: Of course it is a very important industry in Ontario and, again, I can assure the member that we are having discussions with the federal government, the people and the industry within the province, and doing what we can to make sure that those jobs are maintained.

TRANSIT SERVICES

Mr. Davis: I have a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications.

Two weeks ago, the member for Oriole (Ms. Caplan) urged the Treasurer (Mr. Nixon) to provide funds for the Sheppard line. Two days ago, the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Grandmaître) practically announced the construction of this crucial transportation project. When will the minister announce to this House the approval of the Sheppard line, its costs and its date of construction?

Hon. Mr. Fulton: I am meeting with the member later this week to discuss other matters of transit, so he may want some funding for that issue perhaps as a priority. But I am surprised that the member, in this business and in the previous business, would have taken a very small

article in one of the local papers as gospel.

The Minister for Municipal Affairs has not said anything that was not said in the statement here, I think on May 7.

Mr. Davis: It is obvious that the Minister of Transportation and Communication's colleagues know more about the transportation policy than he does, and understand its importance and crucial need to the northern part of Scarborough and North York. Metro council has agreed that the Sheppard line is a priority and must be built now.

The Toronto Transit Commission has also indicated that it is their top priority. Thousands of people in cars and in buses are anxiously awaiting some indication from the Minister of Transportation and Communications.

The Minister of Municipal Affairs is quoted as saying that there is still a chance for the line to be built. Why are these indications coming from the Minister of Transportation and Communication's colleagues, and why will he not show any leadership and approve the funding for that transportation system?

Hon. Mr. Fulton: I cannot stand here and deny that we have shown leadership. The announcement of the greater Toronto area two weeks ago took more leadership, more initiative, and thankfully more money from the provincial Treasurer, than these guys did in 40 years for this province.

WESTERN COAL

Mr. Charlton: I have a question for the Minister of Energy.

The minister is aware that there is a committee here today from western Canada to discuss questions of low sulphur western Canadian coal and I believe he or his staff are probably meeting with the committee this afternoon. The minister is also aware that as a result of the Minister of the Environment's (Mr. Bradley) announcement that Ontario Hydro will no longer have access to the banking provision of the Countdown Acid Rain program, there is going to be additional pressure for Hydro to start to firm up its plans for how it proposes to reduce acid gas emissions in Ontario.

Can the minister tell us whether he is prepared to tell this House that low sulphur coal is a reasonable part of that mix and that as his present contracts run out he will replace his coal needs with low sulphur coal from western Canada?

Hon. Mr. Kerrio: I am very pleased to answer a question relating to the burning of western coal. I am very disappointed, in fact, that a federal minister at one time made some comment about us buying some western coal. He was obviously not aware of the fact that Ontario Hydro is at the present time buying three million tons of western coal and paying a $70 premium to do that.

The fact of the matter is that we certainly are very willing to buy western coal and use it in a way that is going to be to the advantage of reducing the acid rain emissions. The problem, of course, is that there has to be a very large component of shipping to get it down here. I will be talking to Ontario Hydro as to how they are going to meet the commitment that they have to in order to comply with the Minister of the Environment's very fine regulations to prove to the Americans that we really mean to cut back on acid rain emissions.

The fact of the matter is that these discussions have been ongoing for a good long time. I met with Tony Brummet from British Columbia, who is two ministers removed, in fact, from the present minister, so this is not something new to Ontario. We are very willing to enter agreements with our sister provinces in the west to be able to share the buoyancy of this economy, but of course it means we also have to take into account the cost that is going to be put to the consumers in Ontario. If we are going to protect our manufacturing base, we have to be certain that Ontario buys power at the best possible price, which is precisely what this minister is going to do.

PETITION

SCHOOL RENOVATION

Mr. Shymko: I would like to present the following urgent petition:

"To the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor and the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"We, the undersigned, beg leave to petition the parliament of Ontario as follows:

"Whereas we, the Home and School Association of Howard public school and the Howard school community, hereby state the seriousness of our commitment and concern regarding the need for the renovations of the Howard public school building;

"And

whereas, for the sake of our children and future students at Howard, we look to you now for swift and efficient action which this matter so urgently requires;

"We petition the Ontario Legislature to call on the government and in particular the Minister of Education to:

"State that they will ensure financial support to the city of Toronto Board of Education in a period of time less than two years, that renovations necessary to the physical health and the proper educational environment of children may be expeditiously carried out.

"We, the members of the Howard Park public school community, hereby state the seriousness of our commitment and concern regarding the need for the renovations of Howard public school building. For the sake of our children and future students of Howard, we look to you now for swift and efficient action, which this matter so urgently requires."

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

CITY OF TORONTO ACT

Mr. Offer moved first reading of Bill Pr17,

An Act respecting the City of Toronto.

Motion agreed to.

CITY OF TORONTO ACT

Mr. Offer moved first reading of Bill Pr56,

An Act respecting the City of Toronto.

Motion agreed to.

YORK FIRE AND CASUALTY INSURANCE COMPANY ACT

Mr. Cousens moved first reading of Bill Pr14,

An Act respecting York Fire and Casualty Insurance Company.

Motion agreed to.

TABLING OF INFORMATION

Mr. Martel: Mr. Speaker, last week I requested under two standing orders that you assist me in obtaining both written and oral answers from the Minister of Labour (Mr. Wrye). That is approximately a week ago. I gave you a list; I could give you a much longer list. Those answers are still not forthcoming. I am wondering when Mr. Speaker is going to be able to ensure that the standing orders are lived up to by the Minister of Labour and those answers are going to be forthcoming.

Mr. Speaker: As the honourable member knows, I am very keenly interested and involved in making certain the rules are upheld. I do not see the Minister of Labour here but I am certain the government House leader will take note and make certain the Minister of Labour will respond.

Orders of the day.

Hon. Mr. Nixon: I would like to call order 35. The Minister of Health (Mr. Elston) is about to come and move this thing.

Mr. McClellan: My understanding was that we were going to do the 35th order tomorrow because the standing orders do not permit us to do bills in the same policy field on the same day.

Hon. Mr. Nixon: As a matter of fact, that is correct. The committee is willing to postpone its deliberations for the brief time Bill 78 will take, but the honourable member is entirely correct and I would like to call order 17.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

MEMBERS' CONFLICT OF INTEREST ACT (CONTINUED) / LOI DE 1987 SUR LES CONFLITS D'INTÉRÊTS DES MEMBRES DE L'ASSEMBLÉE (CONTINUÉ

E) Resuming the adjourned debate on the motion for second reading of Bill 23,

An Act to provide for greater Certainty in the Reconciliation of the Personal Interests of Members of the Assembly and the Executive Council with their Duties of Office.

Suite du débat ajourné sur la motion de deuxième lecture du projet de loi 23, Loi assurant une plus grande certitude quant au rapprochement des intérêts personnels des membres de l'Assemblée et du Conseil des ministres avec les devoirs de leurs fonctions.

Mr. Cousens: When the Clerk read off the title, it is too bad he did not go to the back of the bill in

section 19 where the

short title says Members' Conflict of Interest Act. It would make an awful lot more sense. I also like the title that was given by the member for Durham West (Mr. Ashe):

An act for the Premier to cop out of conflict-of-interest enforcement on members of his cabinet. That is really what we are dealing with. We are dealing with

an act that is full of problems. It is going to create problems for this Legislature in the future because it does not address the whole real question of conflict of interest.

It has the words, the public imagery of being

an act that deals with a very important issue that, quite candidly, came to the fore because of the member for Brantford (Mr. Gillies) and the member for Sarnia (Mr. Brandt) who were able to highlight problems of conflict of interest within the government. It has been through their research and their direct questions that members of the government have had to reassess their own positions, and through that assessment, ministers have had to resign.

This is an important bill that affects the future of government in this province. It is time for us to give good leadership and to deal with more than just the form and get to the substance of it. What I see here are words that do not necessarily go to the root of the problem or deal with the issue as it really is.

We will deal with it as it is called. It is really Bill 23 and started out as Bill 160. May I suggest that I hope the government will possibly take it back under further advisement after a number of our members have discussed it further, members who share with me the common concern that we are dealing with a fundamental issue in society; that is, the whole process of selecting and choosing people to represent the people in the House that we are addressing right now.

It is an important bill. Yesterday, I was speaking on one particular section. I would like to back off and correct a certain direction I was taking because in

section 12 it indicates that members are to provide certain data to the commissioner. There is an "except" that excludes the public release of certain parts of those data. May I say that my intent was still correct and I will go back just to apprise honourable members of what I was saying at that time.

In my remarks yesterday, I was indicating that clauses (

a) through (

l) would all become public information, except that I was not including the very important word prefacing the beginning of those subsections. Therefore, I apologize to the House that I became somewhat carried away in my analysis.

I come back, none the less, and point to subsection 12(3) of this same bill. Subsection 3 virtually does what I was afraid would happen under

section 12.

What subsection 3 does say is, "The public disclosure statement shall contain a statement of the nature of the assets referred to in clauses (1)(

f) to (

l) and the name and location of persons or institutions against whom the assets are held."

What we are talking about is that the public disclosure statement can contain information about the nature of "the amount of cash on hand or on deposit with a chartered bank, trust company or other financial institution in Ontario that is lawfully entitled to accept deposits."

What is the government really talking about? If in fact the public disclosure statement can start talking about the nature of a member's assets, not just a cabinet minister but all members' assets, the nature of those can be made public.

I begin to say this becomes a concern, because when one starts having not only the cash on hand or the financial institution in which it is located -- mind you, the amount does not have to be listed, but everything else will be, "the amount of Canada savings bonds and other investments or securities" -- may I suggest that it is an intrusion on the privacy of a member to have all this information made public so that his whole financial status becomes public knowledge?

I believe the Quebec system certainly has merits. In Quebec, there is a commissioner, and the commissioner has the right to gather information about members of the National Assembly. This commissioner knows the background of each member. This information is shared with him. It is open. It is signed. It is authorized. It is a sense in which there is a sharing of data with that commissioner.

But may I suggest to the members, there is only one person who has it? There is only one person with whom it is shared. It is not necessarily going to come back in and out of the House. Members in that assembly in Quebec are able to rely on the decision of that commissioner. He has an awful lot of power, but that power, when exercised properly and fairly, as I am sure it would be, is sufficient to allow members to know their public trust is being upheld.

Under these guidelines, members who will agree to have that information made public are now going to have things known about them that otherwise is not anyone else's business.

When I said yesterday, why do we not require members of this Legislature to have medical examination; why do we not require them to have mental examinations --

Hon. Mr. Nixon: That is a good idea.

Mr. Cousens: I would agree. See there? It is just the inroads of the whole thing, and some might not pass those exams. There might be some honourable members who would find out they do not have what it takes.

I do not think that is important, because the public, when it elects a member -- the member for Brant-Oxford-Norfolk (Mr. Nixon) has been to the polls more times than any other member in this House except maybe the member for Elgin (Mr. McNeil). The fact is, people have accepted him for what he is, who he is; they are not interested in knowing his mental background, his medical background or his financial background, because they have established a sense of trust in him.

Mr. Martel: Anybody who tries to pass phoney money --

Mr. Cousens: I do not think he has done that with provincial money, though; it has only been with his own currency. What he will do is water down our currency so it is worth nothing anyway because it will drive inflation up and the deficit will increase. There are other ways in which he will make our currency less than what it should be and what it is.

My point is that this bill has problems within it. For us to quickly come along and say, "It is just another simple bill" -- it is not.

I was going through the bill further. I would like to comment on

section 2. In

section 2, it indicates just who is involved with a conflict of interest. There is no reference in

section 2 to a member's spouse or the person with whom he is living or has a special relationship as defined under

section 1.

May I suggest that there is a real concern, if you are dealing with conflict of interest, about having an understanding of the total relationship of a member of the provincial Legislature with another person. In fact, what could be happening is that a member of this House might well be living with someone, his or her own spouse, and doing things in his or her favour. There is nothing within this definition or this bill, except for the declaration or filing of a statement, which will force us to have any understanding of another relationship.

I believe that is a failure of this bill, not to address that relationship that members would have either with their spouse or with someone else. Therefore,

section 2 of the bill should be redefined to include spousal involvement of some kind. It should have some reference to any spousal interference or action taken by a member of this Legislature for another person with whom he is living.

Section 3 of the bill indicates that each member of this House who has any special access to information and acts upon it in any way can be found guilty under the penalties

section of

section 16. I believe in the intent of these sections. I think the intent is saying quite honestly that we, as members of the Legislature, have to treat the information we are given as members honourably and correctly and in the service of our constituents. But since this province does not have an access-to-information act, there is an awful lot of information that flows through our offices that is not public information. What is public and what is private?

Therefore, I believe that coincident with the development of this bill, there should be an acceleration by the government to introduce the access-to-information act, so there can be more sharing of information of what is going on within government.

That is not just of slight passing moment. It says here, "A member shall not use information that is gained in the execution of his or her office and is not available to the general public...." Quite candidly, a lot of the information that passes across our desks is not generally available. There are times when we have committees in camera and there are other data that go through. Somehow or other, I think that should be clarified.

I am worried about

section 6, which talks about people who are going to be affected by this bill. I am reading, "The executive council, a member of the executive council or an employee of a ministry (other than an employee of an agency, board or commission) shall not knowingly...." It identifies the people who will be impacted by this legislation. Why then does the bill not deal with the impact of those people not fulfilling the terms of this legislation?

In the penalties section, where it is going to come along with the hard hand of the law and cause members to be reprimanded or fined or to pay compensation or lose their seats, there is absolutely no reference to any penalty for any other person who has dealt in conflict of interest with matters dealing with the provincial government. Why not? This act does not touch upon it except by saying they shall be included. If they are not going to have a penalty, if there is no sense in which they are going to be monitored, then I am saying this bill has a serious problem to it.

It should have some way in which every person who is doing business in the public service is going to be accountable to the people of Ontario for what he is doing, for how and why he is doing it and that his intentions are honourable. If in fact there are senior civil servants who are close to the executive council, who have private companies or private businesses, are they not going to be under the restriction of the executive council too? Are they not also going to be challenged and is there not also some penalty that can be levied upon them?

I believe that is a serious shortfall in this bill. It should go further than just saying, "We are going to deal with all these people," and then, by virtue of the fact that it does not talk about them later on in the bill, fail to address a much greater problem.

Through the questions that were raised in this House about members who had conflict of interest, or perceived conflict of interest and whose conflict of interest was later found, we have found in this House that there is a problem. That is why our party would support an honest resolution to the problems associated with conflict of interest. Deal with it more so, though; do not just say it is being dealt with. The honourable Attorney General (Mr. Scott) has mentioned it, but he has not begun to address it fully.

We cannot accept that. The people of Ontario expect more of us than that. They expect this House and those who are civil servants within our government and from the province to be honourable in all their dealings. Therefore, let us go a step further and make sure they are accountable. Let us make sure that there are going to be some teeth in this and that it is not just having words to it. It has got to have a follow-through so that every person can be truly and fully accountable, as they should be.

There are sections of the bill that begin to deal with certain aspects of conflict of interest that I believe take the right direction. In having open trust, it accepts the fact that there are going to be some members who will have businesses they can carry on through an arm's-length relationship and indeed recognizes there will be some dealings that take place. I believe there is a lot of sensitivity shown in

section 7.

I am concerned with the appointment of the commissioner. The commissioner has a very, very large responsibility. I wonder what would happen in a few years if the government decides to appoint the member for Cochrane North (Mr. Fontaine) or the member for Oriole (Ms. Caplan) as the commissioners for the Members' Conflict of Interest act. Who knows who is going to be made the commissioner for this very important office? They are good people. I respect them, but they probably have more experience in this special area than many of us do. I wonder what the attributes would be to appoint any such person to this office.

In Ottawa, not too long ago, there was the McGrath report. The McGrath report was an approach to trying to open up government so that all members of the federal House would somehow be more involved in its processes and members of the opposition would again have some input to appointments at high levels of government.

It was through the McGrath report that a new process was established for the election of a Speaker, and the present Speaker in the federal House was elected by all the members of the House, through ballot. This was a way in which every member of that House had a chance to truly participate in the democratic process. It was not something, as has been the case in the past, where the Prime Minister would make a selection.

What happens now in the appointment of a commissioner, a commissioner who could be any person selected by the Lieutenant Governor in Council, who "shall appoint a person" to the role of commissioner? That very same person may have some special prejudices that are not in keeping with the thinking and feelings of other members of the House, and yet what act or what way do other members have of raising that for discussion?

I have to say that this office of commissioner is a very important officer. I think it is incumbent upon the government which makes the appointment to ensure that, whoever it is, it is going to be someone acceptable to all members of this House. If in fact someone is selected who is not acceptable to all members of the House, then that very same person could be undermining the rights, the freedoms, the privileges, the honour, the integrity and all the characteristics that make up the members of this House.

I would like very, very much to see the commissioner have a special appointment process that goes beyond it, so that those who are members of other parties in the government will have some input in the selection of that person. Something like the McGrath report in Ottawa, which gave an opportunity for all members to be more actively involved in the running of government, could also be brought to bear in the selection of this commissioner.

I am concerned as well, in

section 9, that this commissioner, whose responsibilities it will be to police all members of this House to see that they have submitted their financial data and maybe eventually their medical and mental data and other things, is going to have a term of five years. I believe that is too long a term. Maybe we should be looking at a much shorter term, subject to renewal, to allow that person to be reviewed and to be watched so we can make sure no prejudice is being shown by his actions. I do not think this has been thought out deeply enough.

I am concerned as well in the whole disclosure process that is taking place. Every person is going to be treated very much the same as to what has to be disclosed, how much and so on. As I have gone through

section 12 again where it asks for full financial disclosure by all members of the House, I question whether, if a person has any asset value in any situation, that in itself should show there is going to be an opportunity for some conflict.

Why are the amounts and values so important? What they are asking for in this bill is the amount of cash on hand or on deposit with a certain chartered bank, the amount of Canada savings bonds, the value of registered retirement savings plans, the amount invested in open-ended mutual funds, the value of guaranteed investment certificates, the value of annuities and the value of pension rights. If a person has any pension rights, it will be relative to his own needs and his own importance whether he has them. Is it germane to this bill that the value and the amount be given such an importance? I question that.

I believe that if we are going to have all this made public, we should remove the values and the amounts of anyone who has any investment and let it just indicate that he has them. My real fallback position is that I hope we will not get into this whole public disclosure of all the assets and all the values that every person has.

I am concerned about

section 14 and how public the process will be in making public and sharing with everybody in the province what each individual person has. I think it touches upon the rights and freedoms of members of this House and of people who will be running for public office.

There are a number of aspects to this bill that make it objectionable to me. It says to the public that Ontario is dealing with conflict of interest. It does not do that. It does not do that because it does not deal with the whole circumstances that surround conflict of interest. It does not deal with the spousal relationships. It does not deal with the civil service. It does not deal with the total circumstances that can be involved in conflict of interest.

First, this bill should go further to enunciate and define clearly what those relationships are. Second, I believe this bill will undermine the very foundations that cause people to want to serve. When people offer themselves to serve in any of our three parties or in the fourth party that is about to be formed, people do so with the sense of wanting to serve their community. Do we want to put in front of them a disincentive for service, some reason or rationale why they may not want their name to stand before the public?

By asking for all this information to become public, are we then giving people a reason not to become involved? We want a whole cross-section of the public to be involved in a very significant way in the electoral, political and democratic process that has made our province as strong as it is. To remove that opportunity by virtue of excluding certain people is going to be a very large negative to the future of government.

I hope this bill is defeated. I hope the government reconsiders and comes back with a far more intelligent view of the needs of Ontario to ensure that the people are protected from anyone who is going to be in office for the wrong reasons. I believe that purpose is honourable and valid, that no person in this House should be here for other than the primary reason of making this province a better one and to serve the people.

If members are here to serve themselves, then I believe the system has to find a way of exposing them. But let us not just have an exposé of all the attributes and all the characteristics at the whim and fancy of a commissioner who can deal with these matters in a far too open way and who can remove some of the privacy that I think is paramount to a human being, a human being who has a desire to retain that sense of self-respect and dignity and that sense of privacy that is his.

Yesterday I talked about the governor of New York, Mario Cuomo, who was considered probably one of the best candidates for President of the United States. He is purposely withdrawing himself because he does not want to have himself exposed.

Mr. McGuigan: He says he will take a draft.

Mr. Cousens: He just might be drafted, but then along comes all that opening up of everything else that is part and parcel of what he is all about.

This is an important bill. It does not just affect the members of the Legislature of Ontario; it affects all the people of Ontario, because whom the people elect and whom they place in trust is going to be affected by how this bill is implemented, how it is followed and how people are going to interpret it in the future. I am concerned about that and I think therefore this bill should be defeated to allow the government to go back to work and rethink it and make sure it covers the whole ground far more intelligently than it has to date.

Mr. Baetz: I am pleased to speak to this bill. It is rather strange that about two years ago, when the question of possible cabinet conflict of interest was first raised, as all members in this Legislature remember very vividly, the Premier (Mr. Peterson) stood in his place and proudly claimed to the world that, "My cabinet is not only clean, not only cleaner than clean, not only 99.44 per cent clean, but squeaky clean."

Mr. Bernier: Squeakily clean.

Mr. Baetz: A bunch of mice.

Perhaps even at that time we should have suspected he might be protesting a bit too much, I do not know, but I do remember very clearly, and all of us do, his claims about his squeaky clean cabinet.

What has happened in the meantime, of course -- and here today we are debating a bill to deal with conflict of interest -- is there has been a report from the standing committee on public accounts, Report on the Allegation of Conflict of Interest Concerning Elinor Caplan, MPP, the Aird report, the Report on Allegation of Conflict of Interest Concerning René Fontaine, MPP, and so on.

So why this enormous, unprecedented interest and activity in this question of conflict of interest when indeed we have the privilege of having in this province not a clean cabinet or a clean-clean cabinet but a squeaky clean cabinet? We all know why. The Premier had no sooner uttered those words when serious conflict-of-interest charges were levelled and were made to stick.

I am not going to go into all the details of what happened in these particular cases; my colleagues have already expanded on them and they are a matter of public record. The thing that concerns me more than anything else about all of this is the attitude of the Premier in this.

I would like to confine my remarks pretty well to the role of the first minister, whether it is the Premier or the Prime Minister, in setting the style and setting the value systems on matters of conflict of interest, and also the role of the cabinet ministers.

Obviously, this bill will also be dealing with the conflict-of-interest questions for private members, but I would like to concentrate on the first minister and on cabinet. It seems to me there is a relationship that is indeed unique in all of society; the relationship between the first minister and his or her cabinet ministers. This is a very unique relationship. It is not a normal employer-employee relationship. It is not a normal managerial relationship to the people he or she is responsible for or to whom they are accountable. It is a very different relationship.

So much of that relationship is not set down. It cannot be set down in words and rules and regulations. There are some general guidelines, but so much of that relationship depends on a nonverbal, a nonwritten, full communication between that all-powerful first minister and his or her cabinet ministers.

I suppose it is very hard to really understand this relationship until one has served in that situation, as I had the privilege of doing for some eight years for Premier William Davis and later, for a short time, for Premier Miller.

During all that time, I do not recall Premier Davis ever saying to me, "Thou shalt" and "Thou shalt not," when it came to matters of conflict of interest, or giving me long memos or long sermons on how I should conduct myself or how I should avoid conflict of interest. But I knew, and I think every one of our members and ministers in cabinet knew, precisely where Premier Davis stood on the matter of conflict of interest. He conveyed that to us without having to set out the relationship in so many written words or so many legal documents.

We knew what he expected of us and I think we knew what the consequence would be if we disregarded his value system. So we were free of conflict-of-interest charges, certainly during my years.

Today we have a new government, a new Premier, and a Premier who, I get the very disconcerting sense, is like the three monkeys, "Hear no evil; see no evil; speak no evil." Is that not the case? Is it not a matter of interest that in every one of these conflict-of-interest cases that was eventually made to stick, the initial reaction by the Premier was: "Nothing is wrong. I know of nothing. I do not know. I have not heard about that. I did not see anything."

We had it again yesterday when there was a very obviously inappropriate invitation extended by the Minister of Health (Mr. Elston) to his famous cocktail party. Yesterday the Premier came in here and said: "I think everything is fine. I have heard of nothing. I have seen nothing. I know of nothing that is questionable about my Minister of Health."

Then of course, the Minister of Health, taking his cue from the Premier, taking the value system -- no memo, I am sure; maybe the minister did get a memo from the Premier, though I doubt it, but he takes his cue from the Premier -- stands up here today in what had to be the greatest charade of smugness, of arrogance, of naiveté, and said, "There is nothing wrong with what I did."

Now we are getting into value systems. All the rules and all the regulations are not going to change that minister's attitude towards what he did or, God knows, what else he does. The whole question of conflict of interest rests ultimately and essentially on value systems, as it did yesterday and does again today.

Really, I feel that we can, as is proposed in the bill here, establish a commissioner. We can establish a policeman. We can give him or her all kinds of powers. We can set down modus operandi as to how this commissioner is going to act and what kind of punishment the commissioner will hand out to any minister who has been caught in conflict.

We can go into all of this, and I suppose this is necessary. We have to have some conflict-of-interest guidelines, some conflict-of-interest legislation. We have to have some modus operandi set out in legislation, but I cannot help but feel that unless and until the Premier, the first minister, sets the pace, sets the level, establishes the social and the moral environment and deals firmly with ministers who do not comply with that high value system, most of these guidelines and regulations will not amount to a great deal and will not provide the people of this province with the kind of protection they require.

As I say, it is not asking too much of a Premier to deal harshly with ministers who fall short of his or her standards. It should not be hard at all, because the relationship between a Premier and a minister is unique. He does not have to spell out all the reasons in the world he is going to drop this minister or that minister. He simply says, "I do not expect you to serve in my cabinet any more." There is probably not another employer-employee relationship in the whole, wide world today where the employer, the boss or the manager has that kind of power, but the Premier certainly has it in cabinet.

Hon. Mr. Nixon: Can't even get to court.

Mr. Baetz: It might go to court all right, but it would not get him very far.

That is the kind of powerful relationship the first minister has over his cabinet ministers. Therefore, I think it is not expecting too much for us to turn to the first minister and expect him to set the value systems and his ministers to follow. Quite frankly, that is my deepest point of concern with the present government.

I am not saying for one minute that the first minister is immoral or that he is guilty of this crime or that crime; not at all. But I have a feeling that this first minister views this conflict-of-interest question not as being a moral question or an immoral question, but as an amoral question. It is not very important in the value system at all. Certainly, the same applies to the individual ministers.

Frankly, I think the best guideline will be the ministers' own value systems. If individual elected members who are charged with cabinet responsibility personally believe there is nothing wrong with using their position of power to assist themselves and their friends and relatives, all the guidelines are not likely to deter them in every instance. They will regard these acts of self-help as neither moral nor immoral but as amoral and something that naturally comes with the terrain.

If, on the other hand, an elected representative regards his appointment as a cabinet minister as a trust placed upon him to work only for the best interests of the public, there will be little need for him to study conflict-of-interest guidelines. He will know instinctively and intuitively what is right and in the best interests of the public and what is wrongful self-aggrandizement.

I read that because I rather like those lines. They happen to be my own, in my last newsletter.

Mr. Wildman: You are quoting yourself?

Mr. Baetz: I am quoting myself because a few months after I had written those lines, I looked at them again and thought they were still pretty good. That is always the test: when you have said something that is pretty good, read it a year later. Some of it you will throw away, some of it will stick. This I like and I will repeat it from here on in.

If the Minister of Health is really convinced today that he did nothing wrong, if his value system convinces him that he did nothing wrong, then all the guidelines in the world are not going to help one iota.

To get back to one of the main features of this present legislation, which is to establish a commissioner who is going to police us and who is going to punish us if we are caught in conflict of interest, I feel we can pass the bill or we can defeat it, we can establish this person; it does not matter a heck of a lot. The world is going to go on essentially the way it is right now unless and until the first minister here takes seriously the whole issue of conflict of interest and deals with his cabinet in a very stern manner. The message will very quickly get through and I think we will begin to see some changes.

In a sense, it is simple to say our duty is now done; we have passed this legislation, we have set up the commissioner, we have spelled out a few more guidelines to indicate when one is in conflict and when one is not; now our job is done and we wash our hands of the whole issue and the world will go on in a much better way than it has in the past and the government of Ontario will once again return to the very high moral standards it did enjoy for so many years under the Progressive Conservative administration.

But unless and until we see some changes of attitude -- of course, changes of attitude can come with changes in parties. When we return to power and we have our own first minister in place with cabinet, then perhaps there will be a return to different standards and different mores as far as conflict of interest is concerned.

I can take or leave this bill.

Mr. Hennessy: Leave it.

Mr. Baetz: My very distinguished friend the member for Fort William (Mr. Hennessy) wants me to leave it. I will be prepared. He wants to leave it; people ought to take seriously what he says.

That is my central theme, my central thesis. There is an old saying -- I think it is European; it does not matter