Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 54A (31st Legislature, 2nd Session)

31-2-54a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

... - " ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 26 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL. XXVI No. 54A 2:30 p.m. Thursday, June 1, 1978 Printed by P.N. Crosbie - Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

.. I LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, June 1, 1978 Time: 2:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle-Russell): Before we proceed , I should like to direct the honourable members' attention to the gallery where we have 50 students of Grade 5 to 9 standing from the Miniota Junior High under the direction of Barry Cornish , Gayle and Steven Holden and Garth Field . This school is located in the constituency of the Honourab le Memb er for Virden . We have 34 students of Grade 6 standing from Boissevain High under the direct ion of Mrs. Dueck .

This school is located in the cons tituency of the Honourable Min ister of Mines and Natural Resources. We have 25 students of Grade 5 stand ing from Lord Roberts Schoo l und er the direction of Mrs. Stephenson . This school is located in the constitue ncy of the Honou rable Attorn ey-General. We have 14 students of Grade 10 to 12 standing from Portage Collegiate unde r the dire ction of Mr. Dave Froese . This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Portage Ia Prairie. On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon. Present ing Petitions . . .

Reading and Receiving Petitions . .. Present ing Reports by Stand ing and Special Committees . . . Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris) introduced Bill No. 51 , The Metric Conversion Act. HON. GERALD W. J. MERCIER (Osborne) introduced Bill No. 40 ,

An Act to amend The Provincial Judges Act (2); and Bill No. 42 ,

An Act to Amend The Queen's Bench Act. HON. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel) introduced Bill No. 50,

An Act to Amend The Tuberculosis Control Act. MR. D. JAMES WALDING (St. Vital) introduced Bill No. 49,

An Act to Amend The Electoral Divisions Act. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. EDWARD SCHREYER (Rossmere): Well, Mr. Speaker, awaiting the Minister of Health , I have a question for the Minister reporting for the Farmlands Protection Board, and that is to ask the Minister , in the light of the statement made by the Director of the Board, Mr. Muirhead, that there seem to be transactions under way of recent date which, upon consultation with Alberta, Saskatchewan and the Federal Government , would seem to indicate that there are good reasons to look into the matter.

I ask the Minister in light of that , and given that this Board now has no operating staff other than the Director himself , can the Minister indicate how these good reasons for looking into it will, in fact, be followed up on? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture . HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr. Speaker , the Honourable Leader of the Opposition I really am not quite clear on the question that he is asking .

If it 's the fact that there are not enough ... individuals in place to operate the Board, or the Director is unable to, or if there are things - if I could get him to clarify it a little more? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I'd be glad to . My question to the Minister then would be, in light 2999

Thursday, June 1, 1978 of the statement by the Director of the Farmlands Protection Board , that there seem to be good reasons to look into the efforts by legal firms to acquire farmland in this province, and that there seem to be good reasons to check this out based on consultation with two other prairie provinces and the Federal Government , and given the fact that the Board has no operating personnel other than the Director himself , can the Minister give the House the assurance that in fact there will be adequate investigation of all of the facts surrounding the possibility of the large-scale purchase of farmland in this province by persons who may be in contravention of the existing law?

MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure the honourable member opposite is well aware of the job of an appointed board, that they have been appointed to carry out the Act that is now in place and if they are having difficulty with it or with the individual not having enough staff that a recommendation should come to me from the board . I will certainly be having some discussions with the director in regard to this . . ' MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker , taking the Minister 's answer to mean that there will be an ':: investigation as necessary , can the Minister give the assurance that there will be sufficient staff to carry out this function until such time as the legislation is repealed? - that as long as it is on the statute book it will be given adequate enforcement. MR. DOWNEY: Well, as I stated, it is not my intent to act on or be involved in the duties of the appointed board ; if they are having difficulty, then the report should come to me. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question to the Minister of Consumer Affairs . I wonder if the Minister would confirm the dismissal today of the Chief Operating Officer, Director of the Manitoba Rent Review Board, Mrs. Rosenberg , and could he give us the causes and reasons that were given for that dismissal. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs . HON. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, in response to the Member for Fort Rouge, the matter to which he refers was a notice to the executive director that the contract would not be renewed beyond its expiry date of June 30th.

The reasons for this were related to the stage at which we are now in rent control process, and a review generally of the staffing patterns at the Review Agency and board which operates in conjunction therewith . It was noted that the senior staffing pattern in the Review Agency was somewhat heavy and that the organizat ional function that had been performed by the incumbent was largely complete and the operations were becoming a normal and routine matter from here on in. So we felt , Mr.

Speaker, that this executive post could be eliminated and that the function of the Rent Review Agency could continue without difficulty. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister would say that this is now part of his colleagues' policy on volunteer involvement in the administration of the state . But could he explain how the Rent Review Board will . . . will it now be operating without an executive director? Will there be some sort of a collegial or co-operative operation that will be done, or perhaps that Mr.

Silverman might be seconded from his present post to occupy the executive director's office of the Rent Review Board? But more seriously , could he indicate that we will not , therefore , be having an executive director appointed in this very crucial and crit ical time in the operation and maintenance of the Rent Review Program? MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker , I accept the suggestions of the Member for Fort Rouge as to possible replacements .

But I would repeat that we have determined that this position or post can be eliminated and that the senior Rent Review Officer will take over the guiding position and become office manager of the Rent Review Agency . I believe , and I'm advised that the work of the Rent Review Agency can continue on this basis and be effectively done. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker , I have a supplementary in the way of question .

How does the Minister justify, or explain, or can he give some evidence to demonstrate that at a time when he is introducing very complicated de-control measu res that will require innumerable references from 3000 \

• I ... ·. Thursday, June 1, 1978 tenants and landlords on de-control aspects and on problems of dodging the rent de-control measures he's announced, which are already beginning to happen, that we will be without any form of executive head and, in fact, that the Rent Review Board should not be strengthened rather than be weakened, as he seems to be indicating is the case? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. May I suggest to the honourable member that a question of that nature may properly fall under the examination of Estimates . The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Speaker, I will restate the question then , in a very specific way. First, does the Minister have any intention of strengthening or improving the operation of the Rent Review Board at a time when the demand of its work will be increasing exorbitantly; and secondly, does he plan any legislative changes to either the Landlord and Tenant Act or The Rent Review Act in order to cover loopholes which will presently allow landlords to dodge or evade the de-control measures that he's announced? MR. McGILL: Mr.

Speaker, the answer to the first part of the member's question is that, yes, we do believe that we will have the staffing pattern necessary to provide responses to the kind of cases that will be presented to the board; we're preparing for that, and the staff can be augmented as the caseload demands . As to the second part of the member's question, we feel that the work and the way in which the board and the Review Agency will be staffed from now on, will tend to increase its ability to deal with landlord-tenant relationships.

To that end, there will be amendments made to the Rent Stabilization Act and these will be presented to this Session of the Legislature because they are required in order to implement the program that has been already announced. While I'm on my feet , Mr. Speaker , I wonder if I might just correct an answer I gave this morning before the Public Utilieis Board , when I was asked as to the membership of the Advisory Committee in Cabinet with respect to Manitoba Data Services.

I inadvertently missed the name of my colleague, the Minister responsible for the Task Force who I must say is a very regular attender at meetings of the committee and I cannot understand how I could have missed him, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to follow-up the questions asked by the Member for Fort Rouge. Do I take it that the Minister is telling us that the failure to renew this contract had nothing to do with any inadequate performance on the part of the person, had nothing to do with satisfaction as to her performance on the job? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs . MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker , I cannot answer that in a simple one word response. The capabilities and talents of the present Executive Director were, in an organizational way, very important to the beginning and the setting up of this agency. The particular talents that are now required are more of an accounting nature and a routine nature, so it does not reflect on her abilities and the way in which it was set up. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the new position appears to be much less demanding in terms of talents than the previous position, may I ask the Minister whether the former Executive en the option of filling the new position which I Secretary was given the option of filling the new position which I gather would be a less senior position , was she given the option of taking that position? MR. McGILL: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I think the determination was as I said at the beginning, simply that her contract would not be extended beyond its expiry date which was and is June 30th, and that the talents which were now required in the routine day to day operation could properly be filled by the Senior Rent Review Officer and that was the determinition. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, then do I take it that this senior position and this senior person was not given the option of heading the new organizational structure because she happened to be in the unfortunate position of having been promoted before; that she was not given the option of taking this new position, is that what the Minister is telling us? MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker, I can only repeat what I told the House a few moments ago, that the 3001

Thursday, June 1, 1978 Executive Director post was eliminated . The Senior Rent Review Officer was considered to be capable of providing the office managementship and to provide the particular skills that are required in the operation of the agency . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Selkirk. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Attorney-General.

In view of the announcement by the Legal Aid Lawyers' Association to the effect that there have been de facto cutbacks in legal aid due to the fact that the Task Force recommendations pertaining to legal aid have not been finalized, could the Attorney-General advise the House as to which de facto cuts have been made in Legal Aid? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I am not aware of any announcements referred to by the honourable member and as far as I am aware the budget has not yet been approved by the board of Legal Aid and, in any event, I have not yet received a copy of it, so I will have to accept the question as notice . MR. PAWLEY: Would the Attorney-General advise the House whether it is his intention to meet with the board of Legal Aid (Manitoba) in order to ascertain whether there have been cuts over and beyond that which have been already announced. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member is asking me to confirm a course of action which I will be unable to decide on until I receive a copy of the budget that has been approved by the Legal Aid board . MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, to the Attorney-General , in view of the indication that those applying for legal aid will be referred to the Attorney-General in order to lodge their complaints, is the Attorney-General intending to establ ish special machinery to deal with the complaints that will be forthcoming to his office? MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker , as the honourable member is well aware, my office is well equipped and experienced in receiving complaints. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Mr. Speaker , my question today is to the Honourable Minister of Health. Can the Minister confirm that many hospitals in the province are not hiring sufficient nursing and support staff to provide for replacement of employees on sick leave, authorized leave of absence and vacancies created by resignations and that this inadequate staffing is of grave concern to those responsible for front line health care in Manitoba? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health . HON. L. R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): No, I can't , Mr. Speaker . MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Can the Minister then confirm or then deny that nurses in the province, either singularly or through their representatives, have indicated to him their concern in regard to the impact of the government's restraint programs and corresponding staff cutbacks and the effect that staffing shortages will have on their ability to perform their professional responsibilities? MR.

SHERMAN: A group of nurses in, I suppose, a leadership capacity in terms of public demonstration designed to make the profess ion's concerns known in a very forceful and direct way to the government , certainly have indicated to me that they have a number of concerns in the areas to which the Honourable Member for Churc hill has referred but that's the only kind of representation I've had, Mr. Speak er. I would expect that kind of representation during negotiation proceedings which at one juncture seemed to have reached an impasse but now, fortunately , appear to be progressing much more smoothly . MR.

COWAN: Thank you . As a final supplementary, Mr. Speaker , can the Minister then confirm that a number of nurses have signed statements that " as responsible nurses, they are unable to 3002

Thursday, June 1, 1978 guarantee both safe and adequate patient care due to unsafe working conditions and that they are doing so in response to increased patient loads resulting from staff cutbacks in the hospitals"?! MR. SHERMAN: No, I can't, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. NORMA L. PRICE (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, on Tuesday I was asked a question by the Member for Logan regarding ar investigation into the lead poisoning. I had thought he had meant the new safety council that was being formed when in fact he had said the workplace safety .

However , I do have the answer for him and I apologize if there was a misunderstanding. I have a report from the department from Dr. Krywulak: "Medical surveillance is carried out in the workplaces where exposures of lead occur. Part-time physicians affiliated with four Winnipeg foundries and one battery plant submit blood for lead determinations to the indust rial hygiene chem ist on a regular two to three monthly basis. In addition , blood from Hudson Bay Mining and Smelt ing ._ in Flin Flon is also tested .

Most of the results in recent months were w ithin norma l limits with the exception of one small foundry where borderline and a few excessive lead abso rption levels were obtained. About 500 persons were tested in 1977 and about 1,500 tests were done on these affected workers. The results are the early indications of exposure and these are interpreted by the physicians in conjunction with physical examinations . Where necessary, some men are pulled out from exposure and occasionally may receive treatment.

If there are symptoms, prophylactic treatment is not desirable and has not been practised lately . - " For the industrial population at risk of 500, 58 persons showed in 1977 borderline levels of 0.08 milligrams per thousand grams of blood and over . These concentration levels required scrutiny of exposures and in no way were cases of lead poisoning. Anyone who is attempting to interpret them without medical due evaluation of people will err in his estimates . The laboratory results are not diagnosis and the diagnosis are arrived at by physicians slowly and with care.

" Only 10 persons from all jurisdictions in Manitoba in 1977 have been reported by the Workmen's Compensation Board as claims of excessive lead exposures. We compare well with other provinces. The data from other countries using different criteria and/or evaluations are not comparable with Manitoba figures . All in all, our program of the medical surveillance is good and will continue. Efforts are being made to speed up the delivery of written lab reports which in the past were reaching the physicians with some delay." MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, back to the Minister of Agriculture, I would like to ask the Minister if he can indicate if and when legislation will be introduced with respect to The Farmlands Protection Act as it now exists and if he can also indicate whether an effort will be made to ensure that that Act can be adequately applied in the interim, between now and some possible amending or repeal of the legislation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first question is that it's a matter of government policy.

Secondly, if the Act had been drawn properly in the first place , we wouldn't have had the problems that we now have. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, changes in the law, Sir, are a matter of policy no doubt, but to ask as to if and when there will be changes introduced, I ask the Minister if he can at least tell us that much and in doing so, can he also advise how the legislation as it is drafted and existing on the books, what that has to do with the fact that the board has no operating staff, an executive director and no staff? Just the opposite of the Rent Review Board which has staff but no director . MR.

DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I believe The Farmlands Protection Act amendments were mentioned in the Throne Speech and, as I said, it is a matter of government policy and it will be proceeding as we see fit. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister 3003

Thursday, June 1, 1978 of Consumer Affairs . Hearing the Minister earlier on a newscast indicating that he was well satisfied with the performance of the executive director of the Rent Review Board , if those comments were accurate as reported in the radio media, could the Minister indicate why she was not offered the lower position that is made open as a result of the change in staffing? MR. McGILL: Mr . Speaker , to the Member for St.

George , I have attempted to respond to questions in roughly that vein and I feel that I mentioned the particular talents that the executive director possessed and the reason I suspec t for her being placed in this contract position in 1975 when the Rent Review Agency was established. It was a matter of organization and the starting up procedures . We are now at the stage where we foresee a general phasing of the rent control situation.

On the basis of our experience, having adopted a procedure and in recognizing the role now to be played throughout the final stages of the Rent Control Program, we feel that the position can be eliminated and it has been eliminated and that the senior rent review officer can fulfill what functions are necessary in respect to office management, as well as the senior rent review function which he now MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.

In view of the fact that the executive director came from another job within the Civil Service Commission to take on this role in a temporary way on a contract position, in view of that fact was she not then given the opportunity to take on another position within the government, or the position that came upward? MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker, I believe that's a matter that will be dealt with in terms of redeployment and her interest and desire to take on other work within the government as it becomes available. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. RONALD McBRYDE: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Minister of Education, or Continuing Education, in light of his expressed concern about the Inter-Universities North Program . I wonder if the Minister could now confirm that the Inter-Universities North Program will now be restricted to three communities this upcoming year instead of 12 as in the past, and whether the number of courses offered this year will be 8 to 10 courses instead of 27 courses as in the past. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I cannot confirm those particular figures at this time. MR.

McBRYDE: I wonder if the Minister would check into the matter and report back as to what is the present situation and whether he could also confirm that no courses will be offered within the Churchill provincial constituency. MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker , I'll take the question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to address a question to the Minister of Labour and ask her whether her annual report contains official statistics of her department on matters of health conditions and industrial hygiene within the province.

Does this report contain official statistics of her department? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . MRS. PRICE: believe that 's in 8 previous year , Mr. Speaker . MR. EVANS: 1 gath er the answer is positive . I note, Mr. Speaker , and I'd like to ask the Honourable Minister the question whethe r this is accurate that according to her report of December 31st , 1977, for the year 1977, there were 1,761 analyses of lead in blood, of which 142 samples were over the maximum - 142 samples were over the maximum acceptable concentrations and 292 samples approached maximum acceptable concentrations .

In view of that would the 3004 :.:.

Thursday, June 1, 1978 MR. SPEAKER: Order please , order please. May I suggest to the honourable member that if he wants to debate figures perhaps the best place is in the Departmental Estimates . The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that there is a problem of lead poisoning in existence in industry in this province, would the Honourable Minister undertake , through her Health and Safety Advisory Committee, to see to what extent she can upgrade the regulations pertaining to this so that the danger of lead poisoning can be lessened? MRS.

PRICE: I believe, Sir, the bulk of the report there took place in my predecessor 's time. However , if there is any more pertinent information I can get for the member , I will take it as notice. MR. EVANS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. According to a recent report appearing in the Winnipeg Free Press, which is not a quotation from the former director of this division . . . According to the report one company in particular , Canadian Bronze , there is information which indicates that the workers continue to be exposed to levels of lead which would not be tolerated elsewhere.

In view of this, would the Minister undertake to use her office and the autho rity that she has under the Act to allow her staff to obtain information directly from the employees on their health condit ions, rather than have to rely on reports offered by the company? MRS. PRICE: Mr. Speaker , I thought I gave a fairly clear report from Dr. Krywulak , the recognized medical man in our department. However, as I just said , I will see if I can get further information for him, but I think I gave him a pretty thorough answer already . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. HARVEY BOSTROM: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Renewable Resources with respect to the fishermen of the Bloodvein , Princess Harbour area who are starting their fishing season this year. Can he guarantee them that the ferry will be operating to transport their fish, seeing that their fishing season is opening today? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): Mr. Speaker , to the Member for Rupertsland, an agreement in principle has been established and one of our staff is in there today firming up the details of it. Right now, I believe, they are in there . MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland . MR. BOSTROM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Tourism. Can he undertake to table the documents which he and his colleague, the Attorney-General, have referred to in their comments regarding legal opinions received from the Attorney-General's office and from ... outside sources regarding the Jarmoc Development Agreement? And can he also table the letter he and the Attorney-General claim that Jarmoc has written releasing the government from this development agreement? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism . HON.

ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendrye): Mr. Speaker, the legal opinions are ones which we solicited and we have got those legal opinions and I don't think at this time it would serve any purpose to table any such documents. I think that the agreements, or any other agreements that were reached by Mr. Jarmoc or anybody else with the Attorney-General's Department, is a matter between the client and the Attorney-General's Department. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, thank you.

A supplementary to that question, in view of the fact that the Minister has referred to a letter which he has received releasing him from the development agreement , I would think it would only be proper that he table that letter so that honourable members could determine whether or not this is the case. Further to that, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister could table in the House, the name of the members of this task force that is working on the park planning for the Whiteshell and other parks in Manitoba , and their terms of reference in their plan for the future for our parks? 3005

Thursday, June 1, 1978 MR. SPEAKER: Order please . May I suggest to the honourable member that that type of information may better be obtained by an order for return. The Honourable Member for Flin Flon . MR. THOMAS BARROW: I direct my question to the Minister of Health , Mr. Speaker . Would the Honourable Minister please explain to the House exactly what he meant by an alternating system of doctors in the Snow Lake area? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health . MR.

SHERMAN: The system that's been invoked is a rotation system of serving Snow Lake community through other doctors available to go in on assignments that I believe approximate one week at a time, and I believe most of the service to date, Mr. Speaker, has been provided by other doctors in northern Manitoba, not doctors from the south . But I would have to check to identify the precise personnel. MR. BARROW: Is the Minister aware that they've only had a doctor there for one week, and the last doctor, it was several weeks since he had left? So they were four to five weeks without any doctor, even today. MR.

SHERMAN: No, Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware of that. The program is co-ordinated under the Northern Medical Service, under Dr. Jack Hildes, who operates both out of the Health Sciences Centre in Winnipeg and out of various medical facilities in the north. And the assurance that I have is that doctors are being obtained to go in on a weekly rotating basis , succeeding each other .

That program was only instituted within the last couple of weeks, as I indicated when the honourable member brought the subject up ten days or so ago, so I don't know how many doctors have been in on a particular assignment to this date, but I'll check into it further . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I'd like to ask the Minister of Consumer Affairs an additional question or two concerning the Rent Review Board .

When he states that the responsibilities of the board are now to be downgraded to simply a clerical or administrative function, could he tell us then whether the announcement that he made a month or so ago, that there would be a major system of monitoring of the Rent Control program and the behaviour of the landlords and the tenants in this respect, is now to be cancelled? Is there to be some other agency of government undertaking this monitoring function , or, more exactly, who will be responsible for undertaking the monitoring and investigation of the decontrol program? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs . MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker, I firstly, did not say that we were downgrading the function of the Rent Review Agency; I explained the reason for the phasing out of the office of the executive director, but that did not imply that we were downgrading the function . We are prepared to respond to the kind of monitoring activity that we have indicated we would undertake in the coming phases of the Rent Control program.

We plan to do that; the agency is capable of doing that, and we have other changes, perhaps in respect to bringing more of the experience and knowledge that has been accumulated in the Rentalsman 's off ice into play in dealing with matters which some anticipate will be major matters, that of landlord-tenant relationships and the program of decontrol by voluntary vacancy. But Mr. Speaker, I can assure the member, we have given consideration to these special functions and we are making plans to respond accordingly. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr . Speaker .

In respect to the last statement by the Minister, could he explain or tell how this arrangement that he intends to set up will deal with the problem of eviction of tenants under various pretexts by landlords in order to avoid the October 1st cut-off date? Can we expect legislation in this respect? Will there be guidelines set forward to provide for the clear enunciation of, under what circumstances evictions or forced evictions might take place, and may we also expect som e legislative changes to The Landlord and Tenant Act to deal with that particular problem? MR. McGILL: Mr.

Speaker , I think the kind of questions that the member is putting to me now might be more adequately dealt with in my Estimates review , which begins , I expect, this afternoon. 1 can merely say that the kind of responses that the member anticipates will be provided by means 3006 :

Thursday, June 1, 1978 of responding to complaints by tenants who allege that there has been harassment or intimidation or undue pressure in their vacating their suites . I do not anticipate that this will be a major new role for the monitoring agency to perform , but it may well be that there will be a volume of that kind of complaint, and it is with this in mind that we are gearing for the new phase in the Rent Control program . MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker , a supplementary .

Would the Minister then indicate that in this monitoring role that he intends to establish, that there will be proper provision for public information as to the kinds of cases and the kinds of problems encountered on a regular basis , so that there would be full information both to the members of the Assembly and to the public as to how the decontrol program is operating? MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker , I don't know what the member means by "proper provision" or what he would consider to be proper provision.

I can only tell him that we intend to respond in what we consider to be an appropriate manner to the needs of the time. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Before we proceed , I owe an apology to the Honour able Minister of Mines . Earlier today when I introduced a school from Boissevain High , I referred to them as coming from the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Education; it should have been the Honourable Ministe r of Mines and Natural Resources . The time for questions having now elapsed, proceeding with the Orders of the Day, the Honourable Government House Leader . MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Speaker, before calling the Orders of the Day, I would like to announce that the Committee on Public Utilities will be meeting again on Tuesday to further consider the report of the Manitoba Telephone System . A MEMEBER: What time? A MEMBER: 10:00 o'clock. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Ssupply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Health and Social Development and the Honourable Member for Crescentwood in the Chaii for the Department of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services .$ CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - CONSUMER, CORPORATE AND INTERNAL SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Warren Steen: Gentlemen , we have a quorum . We are on Page 19 of the Estimates, Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services . The Honourable Minister. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, and members .

As Minister of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services, it is my pleasure to introduce the Estimates of my department for the fiscal year, 1978-79. The department provides a variety of services to the public and to other government departments . These services range from regulating public utilities, incorporating companies, clearing public offerings of securities, to handling consumer and landlord and tenant complaints.

Services supplied to other departments of government include the supplying of stationery and printing, arranging advertising placement, and the co-ordination and preparation of news releases to keep the public informed of government programs and services . At this point I am not proposing an extenive legislative program for your consideration during th is session . I now have under way a review of the statutes for which the department is responsible and the administration of these statutes and their effectiveness .

My officials inform me that federal initiative, such as a proposed Borrowers and Depositors Protection Act, the proposed development of an electronic payment system, new bankruptcy law, and to some extent, amendments to the Combines Investigation Act, will impact upon the legislation in all provinces . I expect that in due course of time amendments to existing Manitoba laws will be 3007

Thursday, June 1, 1978 advisable . It's premature to draw any firm conclusions as to what changes may be necessary, however , but I can assure members that all the provinces are working closely with the Federal Gove rnment in these developments. The Persona l Investigations Act , which is administered by the Consumers' Bureau , has been under study and amendments to update this statute are being formula ted. Dealing directl y with the Estimates before you, the restraint progra m intro duced by this government has affected certain economi es w ithin the dep artment.

This has resulted in an overall redu ct ion of expenditures of $143 ,900 from the 1977-78 adjust ed vote . Despite this reduction in the expend iture , the depa rtmen t will maintain the level of services of the previou s year , 1977-78. In more deta il, my Corporations Branch inco rporated 2,398 new compan ies in the year ending March 31 , 1977. This susta ined high volume is indicat ive of the continued usefulness of the corporated vehicle for enco uraging business in Manitoba .

An addit ional expenditu re of $18,800 in salaries , is projected for the adm inist rative servi ces and Corporations Branch to maintain the current level of service. This app ropriat ion, in additio n to the Corporations and Business Names Registration Branch, include s the admin istration and central accounting function for the whole department ; and the expenses of my office , except for my salar y as the Minister . The Consumers ' Bureau appropriation provides funds for the administration of the Consumer Protection Act , Landlord and Tenan t Act , and the Personal Invest igations Act.

Demand continued to be heavy this p ast year for the services of the Consumers ' Bureau and the office of the Rentalsman . In 1977, the Consumers ' Bureau received 1,816 formal complaints. As in the past , over 20 percent of these complaints dealt with automotive problems . A further 13 percent were related to home improvements , while anothe r 14 percent were home entertainment and home furnishings complaints. Landlord and tenant complaints rose by 8.5 percent to 3,931. Over 40 percent of these complaints were related to security deposit disputes.

Dealing directly with the Estimates of the Bureau , the increase of $39,600 in the salary app ropr iation is due to the usual salary adjustments of the pay plan . It is intended that their program will continue only to respond to consumer and landlord and tenant complaints. There has been no provision for any expansion of the services . The Manitoba Gazette has experienced a heavy increase in printing costs over the past few years . The printing cost of the Gazette two years ago was $69,600.00. The cost for the past year is anticipa ted to be $81,500.00.

The 1978-79 increase over the 1977-78 voted figure is $36 ,200.00. Each year the printing of the Gazette is tendered and awarded to the low bidder . For the past few years and again in 1978, the low bidder has been and is D. W. Friesen and Son of Altona . It should be noted that revenue from the sale of advertising and subscriptions to the Gazette will offset the anticipated cost of the Gazette . The Securities Commission is the next area of the department that I will deal with.

The Commission is responsible for the admin istration of The Securities Act , The Real Estate Brokers Act , The Mortgage Brokers and Mortgage Dealers Act. In the course of the year 1977, under The Securities Act , the Commission held 50 regular meetings at which the Comm ission dealt with a total of 370 items and applications under this statute . A total of 136 formal orders were issued including three Investigation Orders and 14 Cease Training Orders or extensions thereof .

Under The Real Estate Broke rs Act, as of December 31st , 1977, compared with the previous two year s, the total number of registr ations were as foll ows: For Brokers , in 1975, 560 registrations ; 1976, 618; in 1977, 647. Salesmen registered , in 1975, were 1,842; in 1976, 2,450 ; and in 1977, 2,060 . As of December 31st, 1977, under The Mortgage Brokers and Mortgage Dealers Act , there were 97 mortgage bro kers, 1 1 mortgage dealers and 29 mortgage salesmen registered .

The est imate s of the Commission provide only for an $11,700 increase in salar ies again due to the usual salary adjustments and increased salary costs as a result of the last agreemen t with MGEA . Movin g on to the Public Utilities Board, the overall increase of $46,000 in the appropr iation is largely due to the i ncreased workload of the board . The Publ ic Utilit ies Board is an independent qua si judicial agency which in one for m or anoth er has operated for over 70 years.

The Board administers several Acts pertaining to the regulations of pub lic utilities , both private, munici pal and Crown corporations . Some of the Acts administered by the Board are: The Public Utiliti es Board Act, The Greater Winnip eg Gas Distribution Act , the Gas Pipeline Act and The Cemeteries Act. The Board also administers portions of The Municipa l Act pertaining to wate r and sewer rates, utility revenue deficits , util ity reserve funds , street lighting applications and a portion of the M anitob a 3008

Thursday , June 1, 1978 Act. The Board also has an appeal function under The Highway Protection Act and The Manitoba Hydro Act. A total of 96 board meetings and public hearings were held by the Board in 1977. There were 43 regular board meetings , 49 public hearings and 4 special board meetings; 287 orders were issued in 1977 as compared with 205 the previous year. This increase in work in response to demand has add~d to th~ Board's costs, particularly in the area of professional, legal, engineering and accounting serv1ces wh1ch the board uses to conduct independent investigations of rate increases.

Substantial savings have been effected in the operation of the Rent Stabilization Board. By retaining only a minimum staff throughout the year and increasing staff only in peak periods $122 ,200 has been reduced from the 1977-78 adjusted salary allocation. It has been found that it is not necessary to maintain a large staff when such a staff is required only at certain peak workload periods. Most of the year, adequate service can be provided by only a core staff .

An additional $85,000 has been reduced from Other Expenditures in Rent Stab ilization through the use of personal delivery of notices rather than using certified mail delivery . A reduction in travelling and board expenses, a reduction in the stationery requirements due to on hand stock of forms being adequate to meet the demand anticipated in 1978-79. The Board concerns itself with increases in rents and withdrawal of services from tenants. Where any violation of the provisions of the s tatute occurs, the Board can investigate it by way of a hearing after which orders are issued for compliance .

The following statistics reflect the activity of the agency : Over the Phase I and II period , 1,150 applications were made by landlords to increase rents above the amounts allowed by regulations; 382 landlords made similar application in Phase Ill. Of these applications , 450 (out of 1, 150) and 77 ( out of 382) appealed to the Board for Phase I and II and Phase Ill respectively. To date, tenants from 1,083 different buildings have lodged complaints to the Board . In addition, the Board handles a large volume of telephone and walk-in inquiries.

That these numbers have decreased significantly in the last six months is due to the landlords and the tenants familiarity with the legislation . The Communications Division represents the balance of my department and includes the communications

section under the heading of General Administration, the Public Information Services Branch, the Queen's Printer and the Advertising Audit office . The Telecommunications Development Branch has been combined with the Communications Branch for the 1978-79 fiscal year. The same basic telecommunications branch functions of development and co-ordination of telecommunications policies in Manitoba will be carried out in the communications branch. This combining of functions as well as general expenditure restraint has resulted in a reduction over last year of $72,100.00.

The elimination of funds for two vacant positions yielded a net reduction of $47,000 while such economies as reduced use of outside professional services, reduced travel and the elimination of a formal printed annual report resulted in a further $25 ,100 of savings . The Public Information Services Branch continues to inform the honourable members and the public about government programs, policies, and achievements.

Specifically dealing with the Public Information Services Branch Estimates it should be noted that the salaries for the Citizens' Inquiry Service, which directs telephone inquiries by the public to the proper government offices for them to obtain detailed information, have been transferred from the Other Expenditures appropriation to the Salaries appropriation. This was done to present a more accurate picture to the House of how funds are expended. The increase in total estimated expenditures of $5,400 under Public Information Services is due to general salary adjustments.

The last branch of my department on which I will comment is the Queen's Printers Office. The Queen's Printer is responsible for the supply of printing and stationery to all government departments and agencies . Appropriation ?(

a) provides for the salaries of the senior management and the printing brokerage functions of the Queen's Printer. The increase here is merely to cover annual increments and other general salary adjustments. The Open Ledger operation supplies departments with stationery, reproduction and micrographic services. The departments are then charged for these services. No sums are voted for the open ledger as costs are offset by these charges. The overall decrease in financial authority of $102,400 represents the anticipated reduction in expenditures by the user departments in the 1978-79 fiscal year.

The Advertising Audit Office operates under the general heading of the Queen's Printer. The office operates outside the open ledger but uses a similar recovery system under which all but salaries and operating overhead are charged back to the departments which purchase advertising media through the Advertising Audit Office. As a result of the restraint 8 program operating throughout all departments and agencies, the direct public sector advertising and production has been reduced by $300 from the previous year.

With in this department, outside of the Public Utilities Board and The Gazette, only minor salary increases have been permitted. The Gazette and the Utilities Board must respond to demands and 3009

Thursday, June 1, 1978 have little control over the cost of providing these services . Whereever possible other costs have been held or reduced with the net result that $143,900 has been reduced from the 1977-78 adjusted vote . 1 wish therefore, Mr. Chairman, to recommend to the members the Estimates of the Department of Consumer , Corporate and Internal Services for their consideration . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rossmere , the Leader of the Opposition . MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Chairman, looking at the print format on Page 18, noting that there are nine basic entries , it would seem as though most of them coincide quite clearly with the format of Estimate preparation , which I have before me, with the one exception and that's the very first , General Administration . 1 ask the Minister , in trying to piece this together , whether it's a case of having taken General Adm inistration , as we commonly knew it, and lumping in with it the Telecommunications Development Branch , is that basically what's happened?

Because last year the vote for Genera l Administration was in the order of $568,000 , and we note that in this format here in the Estimates, it shows up at about $120,000 more . I can only reconcile that by noting that Telecommunications Development Branch was roughly that amount, of the difference , $120,000.00 . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. McGILL: Well , Mr. Chairman , I show in my column here for the year ending March 31, 1978, the previous year , $686,700.00 MR. SCHREYER: That's right.

That's exactly what I am saying ' but last year if you look at the format you'll see it was $120,000 less than that , so something 's been lumped in there . MR. McGILL: Yes. Well, telecommunications and communications have been combined in this year 's presentation . Are you aware of that? MR. SCHREYER: Well , that's what I'm asking. MR. McGILL: Yes. MR. CRAIK: Well , it's GSI MR. SCHREYER: GSI, General Salaries , yes, yes. Well , that

part is easy to reconcile . Well , if it's been lumped in, then on that basis for this coming year, taking General Administration plus Telecommunications Branch , we would be looking at an amount of $633,000 .00. Now there must have been some service cut here or some salary , some personnel terminated, because otherwise the combination of the two , you would assume would be somewhere up in the $700,000 plus area , but it's $633,000 .00. So, could the Minister indicate if there has been any discontinuation of a service or services? MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, I can tell the membe r that last year Communications and Telecommunications had a total of seven staff man years . While they still , in their combined form, have a total of seven , funds have been provided only for four and a half staff man years . Of the two and a half staff man years, for which no funds were provided, one staff man year was for the communications ' consultant position . This position was vacant for the two previous years and as there is no reason why the position should be required in 1978-79 , the funds were eliminated. So that made a difference there .

Another one staff man year of the two and a half , was the director of Telecommunications' position , which became vacant through the resignation in December of 1977; and by combining these communications and telecommunications branches and by having the Assistant Deputy Minister of Communications assume the responsibility of the director 's position , it was possible to reduce the funds for this position , for 1978-79. So far this has worked satisfactorily . MR. SCHREYER: That , Mr. Chairman, would account for about $40,000, approximately .

Now there is a differential of about $100,000, I would think; so I'm wondering if there is some third or fourth item of any significance . MR. McGILL: The reduction of outside professional services accounted for a further $16,000; reductions in travel accounted for $4,800 and general reductions for $4,300, so there would be 3010 :

Thursday, June 1, 1978 $25,000 to $26,000.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I want to make sure I'm understanding the Minister. There was a consultant's position - a special consultant - which involved some estimate of expenditures. What was the estimate of expenditures that was there for the consultant's position, which was vacant for two years, and was not included this year? How much was it? MR. McGILL: $25,000.00. MR. GREEN: 1 take it that we didn't spend the money to a vacant position, so that is not a reduction in expenditures. MR.

McGILL: But the money was appropriated . MR. GREEN: All right. So, then what we are saying is, that the reduction that you're referr ing to, is not a reduction in spending, but a reduction from an estimate which may not have been spent. MR. McGILL: I'm trying to reconcile the two figures as they were in which the member . . . ..; MR. GREEN: But, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that. What I don 't appreciate is somebody saying that restraint has resulted in a reduction of $25,000, when it wasn 't spent last year, which is what we are getting in many many areas, and here is a perfect indication of it.

That we cannot refer to restraint for a position which was vacant for two years, which therefore wasn't spent, although there was an item in the Estimates ; and we are now suggesting that this is a result of a restraint exercise. Of course, that would apply to every other figure on the lefthand side. I don't know whether there was a reduction in expenditures in the Consumers' Bureau . Where do you have it? In the Queen's Printer, from $215,700 to $214,800, because I don't know if we spent $215,700 last year. It may be a reduction in Estimates and not a reduction in expenditures. Mr.

Chairman, I don't really want to make a big issue out of it. What I object to is the issue being made on the other side. Because what happens, if you include it in the Estimate, it is possible to expend it and then you don't need a special warrant, and the effective change becomes, if you want the position you put in the special warrant. So if you 're talking about restraint, and when you do I would merely ask the Minister - when he is talking about restraint - let's talk about expenditures this year and estimates this year, not estimates last year and estimates this year.

Because the only way you know whether there is a saving, is not by the fact that you have reduced an estimate, but by the fact that you reduced an expenditure. I would ... MR. URUSKI: An actual. MR. GREEN: That's right. I want to carry it forward because we had this in another department. I would like to know what the total number of staff man years, in this department, has been reduced by virtue of the program, what the staff man year complement was last year and what the staff man year complement was this year. I wonder if I could get those figures readily in the Estimates that we are discussing. MR.

McGILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman, on Mr. Green's earlier point, we 8were attempting to reconcile the figures under (b)(1), I believe that's the item we're on. MR. CHAIRMAN: That's right, we're still on 1.(b). MR. McGILL: And not getting into the debate as to whether this was restraint or not, but to attempt to explain the difference in the figures and I believe that was the question that was put here. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, those composite figures that the Minister is talking about are the figures that he is talking about when he said that through restraint we have been able to reduce the expenditures from $3.6 million to $3.5 million and one of those is moneys that wasn't spent last year . I mean, that wasn't distinguished when the initial comments were made and I now want to try to find out how much money is being saved through efficiencies . There is one that you've indicated that I'd like to go into because I frankly did think that personal service costs more than 3011

Thursday, June 1, 1978 postal service but you're going to convince me that that's not correct and that will be fine . If that's the case, then that's fine . I know that when we have to make personal service on individuals, it certainly costs more than mail service but maybe when you have a whole bunch of them, it's cheaper . However , you'll get to that. What is the total staff complement last year as against this year? Mr. Chairman, 1 recognize that there is some policy change here because when we look at the Rent Stabilization , it has gone down double the amount that the department has alleged to save money .

In other words, if you take out the Rent Stabilization which is $200,000, the rest of the department has gone up by $100,000 and I would suggest that the Rent Stabilization change is largely a change in policy, not in efficiency . MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, if the member's question is in order on this item (b)(1), I'm advised that the staff man years for 1977-78 in the department totalled 189.17 and staff man years for 1978-79 total 192.48 overall. MR. GREEN: All right. So what we have is over this year, I take it . .. 189.17 was this year's or last year's? MR. McGILL: Last year's, 1977-78. MR.

GREEN: And this year it's 192.48. MR. McGILL: That's right , yes. MR. GREEN: For some crazy reason, I calculate there's an addition of between 2 and 3 staff man years through this great exercise of restraint. I'm sorry, but that's what the figures tell me. Perhaps I'm not reading them correctly. But I want to go further . What was the vacancy factor of the 189 last year? What was your vacancy factor last year? How many were the ongoing vacancies in your department? MR. McGILL: We can't give you that figure just . .. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Chairman, we've had it in other departments and we've been told that it's roughly . . . Can you tell me what your existing vacancies are? How many vacancies do you have in the department right now? MR. McGILL: Total? MR. GREEN: Total number of vacancies throughout of these 192 positions that you've got, that you've increased this year over last year in your restraint program. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the Opposition. MR. SCHREYER: While they're checking into that, I would attempt to simplify it by putting it in this fashion.

I asked initially for a reconciliation of the print format which the Minister gave me in large part, not completely but in large part. But it would be useful to know what the actuals are, to use a shorthand expression . The format always consists of the approved requests, monetarily and in terms of staff but what is authorized or approved and what is actually expended and positions actually filled is oftentimes significantly different, significantly lower usually.

Do I understand the Minister to say that he doesn't have that readily at hand or that he does have the actual incumbency and actual expenditures for each of the nine components of his Estimates? MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, first to respond to the Member for Inkster, I am advised that there are 9.5 vacant SMYs in the department. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I wonder then if my leader will let me interrupt and while you're getting that other point which I think is very valid, let's have the actuals .

We were told that the general level of vacancy in other departments and throughout the government - and I'm not sure about this throughout the government but I believe that that was said and if it wasn't , it certainly should apply - was 10 percent. That would mean that there would be normally under last year 's level of employment , 18 vacancies . Well, I'm going to be nice to the Conservatives - 18 vacancies . There are now 9 vacancies which means , Mr. Chairman, that not only have you increased your staff by three staff man years , but you 've accelerated your hiring so 3012 !

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Thursday, June 1, 1978 that you've got 12 extra staff to what was had last year if we assume a vacancy factor of 10 percent which is what they told us occurred in other departments and which I have no reason to believe happens differently here, and which I believe - and it happened in the Department of Mines when we went over those staff figures and these great restraints - which I believe is happening throughout this government, that because the so-called restraint program is on, departments are much quicke r in restaffing positions; they are much quicker in making sure there are no vacancies because there is a terror within the Civil Service that if a position is open , it's going to be eliminated and, therefore, under no circumstances should a position be open .

As a result of that, and it was confirmed by the Minister of Mines, the vacancy feature went from over 100 people to 50 people so there were approximately 61 new people - I can't remember the exact figure, I'm sorry - but there were approximately 50 new people hired to fill up vacancies that probably would not have been filled up except for this so-called restraint program . Therefore, Mr.

Chairman, I'm interested - and we'll have to get more particulars as we go down the line - I rather had expected that the staff complement in this department would have been reduced because there is a reduction in Rent Stabilization administrat ion as there should have been .

I think that the administration would be very heavy at the beginning but it would be reduced and perhaps some of what has occurred - and now I am involuntarily going to help the Minister - is that some of your previous contract people have been put on staff people so that this increase in staff man years may not be an actual increase in bodies but an increase in positions of staff people that were employed last year as well. We'll find that out as we go down the line.

But I say right at the outset , that the picture in this department , and it's a smaller department, is starting to have the same kind of scenario as we got in the Department of Mines, that yes, there has really been a change in spending but it's not business efficiency; it's largely philosophical, a reduction of $200,000 in Rent Stabilization, or the winding down of an initial thrust program, which is not an efficiency , it's a change in direction , and an increase, Mr.

Chairman, an increased rate of hiring, accelerated hiring to fill vacancies, in order to make up for the terror of restra int that exists throughout the Civil Service.$ MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, the member has made a number of observations; in respect to first of all, the 9-112 SMYs vacancy, the figure that was given to him. I don't know of any "terror" that exists in the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, but I believe that over the years, and I am so advised, there is a relatively low turnover rate in the staffing patterns in that department, for whatever reasons .

It may be just that it's a nice place to work . MR. GREEN: Well, you know, I'm sure that your chief of the Rent Stabilization thinks so too, but she is not permitted to work there. MR. McGILL: I was intending to remark on the rent stabilization area and the Rent Review Agency; those are contract people, Mr. Chairman, and they are not part of the figures that we are giving you; they are contracts, they are not SMYs as counted .

So, the fluctuations there the member agrees are necessary because of the volume of work and the number of cases which vary greatly from period to period, within each phase of the rent control. The Rent Review Agency last year had contracts varying between 30 and 35, while this year they 're down to a variation of between 20 and 25 contracts, so there is a fluctuation there that takes place pretty regularly. But the vacancy rate which now exists is more related, I suggest, Mr.

Chairman, to the traditional low turnover pattern of staffing in Consumer Affairs than it is to any allegations of a terror that is stalking the land at the moment. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the Opposition. MR. SCHREYER: To bring this to an arithmetical head, if possible, last year the authorized staffing was 189, and I believe the Minister indicated that there was an average vacancy of 9, if I didn't misunderstand him. MR. GREEN: There was no average; he couldn't give us last year's average. This year . . . MR. SCHREYER: Well, I'm asking him now, then, if he can give us an approximation of average vacancy ...

MR. GREEN: Last year . MR. SCHREYER: Last year. And then, I would just like to get a perspective on it. This year the Minister is recommending to us, in effect, 192. That being so, I come back to ask, what is the, 3013

Thursday, June 1, 1978 at the very present time, vacancy in the department? MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman , 9-112 SMYs is the vacancy at the present time. I am told that it tends to average about 10 percent. I'm sorry, 5 percent. ..:: MR. SCHREYER: Well, I won't dwell on it; the question I'm putting to the Minister is that if the staffing authorization was at 189 last year, it is being requested for 192 this year; at this point in time there is a vacancy of 9, or 9-112, as the case may be. That would seem to indicate that there probably was a vacancy in that same order of magnitude 12 months ago .

That would be a reasonable assumption. MR. McGILL: Well my advice, as I understand it, is that 5 percent seems to be a pretty average vacancy. MR. SCHREYER: Okay ; my last question on this aspect of it is to ask how many positions have been cancelled , then? MR. McGILL: The policy has been to hold vacancies as they occur , not to fill vacancies until the need has been reviewed , and other than the position of Communications Consultant , which became vacant because of resignation , other vacancies are simply allowed to maintain the vacancy until the need is demonstrated. MR. SCHREYER: Well , Mr.

Chairman, that's understood . My only point in asking the question in that way is that I realize that there is justification , oftentimes, for keeping a position on the books, even though it's been vacant for a year or two , and to not fill it unless necessary, but it's there to be filled if necessary . So, it's carried as an authorized staff man year . But, when you do that, Mr. Chairman , then it is necessary , under our financial administration , to provide , to vote the funds for that position as well , even though it may not be filled and the funds may lapse , but it's necessary to vote the funds .

Isn't that correct? So, I'm asking how many cancellations , because that will indicate the approximate amount of funds that have been lapsed and not requested in the new year . Are we talking about two or 10, or somewhere in between, that have been actually cancelled and the funds not requested? MR. McGILL: For this specific appropriation that we're dealing with now, I am advised 2- 112. MR. SCHREYER: 2-'/2 staff man year and funds proportionate thereto? MR. McGILL: Yes. MR. SCHREYER: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Inkster. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Chairman, on the same point , I just want to make clear that I asked the question, "What was your previous vacancy factor?" and I did not get an answer for it; I was told he couldn't answer it. We only got an answer that it approximated 5 percent , when you realized that it's 5 percent this year . And indeed , Mr. Chairman , t hat may be right; I rather suspect that it's not. I rather suspect that last year's vacancy factor was higher than 5 percent and certainly , the administration here was not able to say that it was 5 percent , and I asked him, how much it was this year, we got to 9.8, the previous figure .

In other departments , it was 10 percent. This particularly nice department, where everybody is so happy , and there are no complaints to the Labour Board , no problems associated with it -(Interjection)- I'd like to know , maybe it'll prove out that the 5 percent now estimated is right ; I would like to know, and you will be able to get the figures from last year, what was the vacancy factor at the same time last year? Because that will be a significant feature to how many staff you 're carrying and how many staff you're paying for . MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman , I think we've been responding to, sort of global figures here , under this particular ite m. It migh t be appropr iate and give us an opportunity to get an accurate figure for you if we reserved tha t for salary consideration after we have gone through the various departments . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. 3014

Thursday, June 1, 1978 MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . I'd like to ask the Minister , in his figures and the figu res that he has provided us for the SMYs comparing 1977 to 1978, do those figures include the contract posit ions and any term and casual positions they may have within the department? MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman , not the contract positions . They do not include that. MR. URUSKI: And they do include any term or casual that you might have? MR. McGILL: They do include the term positions. MR.

URUSKI: Could the Minister indicate how many contract posit ions were allocated to the department in 1977-78 and 1978-79 , or how many have been eliminated or increased or what, in the provisions? MR. McGILL: While the staff are researc hing that one I can tell you that in the Rent Review Agency the contracts averaged 30 to 35 in the previous year and between 20 and 25 thi s year. Now , overall, we may have some other figures . Again we're gett ing into the total depa rt mental positions . MR. URUSKI: Yes.

I'd like to ask the Minister as well , if they are having a pro blem dealing with the average vacancy rate within the department for the year ? I will giv e h im then a specific month, say, August or September of 1977. At that point in time , what was the vacancy rate within the department? It may be easier for the Minister and his staff to pin down , at that particular time, what was the vacancy rate within the Department of Consume r and Corporate Affairs? How many SMY 's were vacant? MR.

McGILL: Well, again to the member , that is a total figure for the Department of Consumer Affairs , and we'll be prepared to get that figure for August 31 , 1977, I take it is your precise date? MR. URUSKI: Yes. That's fine. MR. McGILL: We'll attempt to get that for you. MR. URUSKI: That's fine . MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(b)(1)-pass - the Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a question or two on this particular line. I believe the Minister said earlier that communications and telecommunications had been combined for this appropriation. Did I hear him correctly then? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. McGILL: Yes, that's correct . MR. WALDING: Would the Minister indicate to the committee what is or was the difference between communications and telecommunications, and why they are similar enough to be able to be combined? MR. McGILL: Well, the Communications Branch has traditionally dealt with those matters of communicating with the publicthrough the Information Services, through the Citizens ' Inquiry Service, in general , that kind of communications .

Telecommunications dealt specifically with matters relating to telephone systems and matters of that precise type that dealt with the technology , and so forth . These two now have been combined under the .. . MR. WALDING: I wonder if I could get a little more clarification on communications, Mr. Chairman. When the Minister is saying this is a matter of communicating with the pub lic, is he speaking of some form of public relations function of Consumer and Corporate Affairs or of the government. Could he make that a little more clear , please? MR.

McGILL: It involves providing an Information Service for all depa rtments of government and for the communications which take place within that. It includes the services of the Queen's Printer 3015

Thursday, June 1, 1978 and the agency of the Gazette, all come in there, the communications general function . MR. WALDING: I'm still a little puzzled, Mr. Chairman, when I see under different headings, on the next page the Queen's Printer and an appropriation for that; and also on Page 19, at the bottom thereof, a Public Information Services , which I understand is the branch that deals with the public relations of the government in the printing and publishing of news releases, voice clips and the 'like. Is there some split in the funct ion involved here? I don 't understand fully. :MR.

McGILL: Well , these are branches coming under the general heading of Communication and 'it's public information that is being dealt with here. The Gazette , the Information Services Branch and those services , generally , are under the general heading of Communications. MR. WALDING: I'm still not clear from the Minister's remarks, Mr. Chairman, as why there is some appropriation under Communications and some more under Public Information Services . Why are 'the two separated? MR.

McGILL: Well, the appropriations we're dealing with are general administrative functions, regarding communications , and the communications administration has to do with these departments that are listed below. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman , is the Minister saying to us that under this particular appropriation would be the salaries of the ADM who is in charge of Public Information Services , the Queen's Printer , the Gazette , etc.? MR. McGILL: That's correct , yes. MR.

WALDING: Then I would like to move on to the other part having to do with Telecommunications and ask the Minister if there has been any change in government policy, having to do with telecommunications? MR. McGILL: Essentially , no change in policy , except to combine functions and to eliminate the post of the Director of Telecommunications, which that function has been taken on by the Assistant Deputy Minister in charge of Communications . MR.

WALDING: Can the Minister give the committee an assurance that this administration is equally as supportive of the Canada-Manitoba Telecommunications agreement, as the previous government was? MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman , I don't know whether this really comes under the item we're speaking of here. But we have had this kind of debate with respect to cable television and the matters relating to the rural licensees and our position has been in keeping with the terms of the Canada-Manitoba Agreement.

Our position has been, all along , that we would like to see those terms respected by all agencies of the Federal Government. MR. WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . I thank the Minister for his reassurance. The reason for the question arose from remarks by opposition members , previous to the last election , on the subject of cable television and similar matters where the government of the day received the impression that some Conservative members were not at all happy with that arrangement , and would like to see it changed .

I feel reassured to hear the Minister's remarks that they are in fact going along with the previous policy involved there . I'd like to move on to a slightly different question, if I might. It has to do with the interconnection bill that was passed last year. The General Manager and Chairman of the Telephone System told us this morning that the bill has not yet been proclaimed. Does the Minister have any comment on that as to why that has not been proclaimed? Is there some preliminary work to be done or forms to be developed , or regulations to be drawn up?

Or has it been a matter of government policy that that bill has not yet been procla imed? MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman , this was a matter that was under discussion at the Public Utilities meeting this morning when we were dealing with the report of the Manitoba Telephone System and I think the bill really relates to MTS directly rather than to the particula r appropriation that we're dealing with now. MR. CHAIRMAN : Perhaps the Member for St. Vital can ask that question next Tuesday . 3016

Thursday, June 1, 1978 MR. WALDING: No, Mr. Chairman, I asked that question this morning and I received from the chairman of the Manitoba Telephone System almost the opposite answer. When I asked it from the perspective of the Manitoba Telephone System, the answer that was given to the committee was that MTS was prepared to continue the development of interconnection , to draw up its tariff and to make application to the Public Utilities Board following the proclamation of the bill but that was what was in fact stopping the movement at that stage.

I didn't , this morning, ask the Minister representing the government about it but I'm taking that opportunity to do so now and ask the Minister why the bill has not yet been proclaimed and what is the delay or is it a matter of government policy not to proclaim it? MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, the bill to which the member refers, of course, was passed by the previous administration and, for reasons known to that administration , it was not proclaimed . There has been no new policy decisions made with respect to the bill.

There may be some technical problems involved but up to this time, our administration has not seen fit to proce ed with the proclamation of that bill. When that decision has been made, then it will be announced. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman , I am aware that the previous government did not proclaim the bill and I'm not asking this Minister to account for the actions of the previous government. What I am asking for is the policy of his government and since the government has now been in power for six months, I'm asking him the reasons for not having proclaimed that Act.

He says that there may be certain technical reasons or difficulties . Can the Minister tell us what thos e difficulties are, if he is aware of them, or if it's the fact that they have simply not got around to considering the interconnect bill yet, that's another reason . Can he tell us why? MR. McGILL: Well again, Mr.

Chairman , this bill relates specifically to Manitoba Telephone System's operations and the bill deals with the kind of authority that needs to be considered with respect to devices that are manufactured or produced or sold by companies other than the telephone system itself and the circumstances under which an interconnection should be permitted . No decision has been made with respect to that bill up to this time and so I'm not able to give you any further information on the status of the work that is being done in this area. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman, is the matter under consideration by the Minister or the government or the Minister's department? MR. McGILL: The matter has been communicated to me that Manitoba Telephone System is considering this whole matter . The government has not as yet fully reviewed the problems relating to the bill and when it has, of course , i t will be in a position to make further policy announcements. MR. WALDING: I have no further questions at the moment. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Inkster and then St. Johns . MR. GREEN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I want to find out, Communications, whether that would relate to the Information Services Branch, that item. MR. McGILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman MR. McGILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman , the communications here in this area covers the administrative function of the Communications Branch and includes Public Information Services and this will be a separate item that will be covered as we proceed through the Estimates. MR. GREEN: All right, Mr.

Chairman, then that may explain one of the problems I had with Information Services Branch because it appears that salaries have been taken out of the Communications Branch and put into the Public Information Services Branch . At least there is an increase in salaries in Public Information Services from $287,000 to $336,000 which is an increase of roughly $50,000.00. On the other hand , there is a reduction in salaries in Communications from $137,000 to $90,000 and at first blush, it would appear that there has been a shifting around . If I'm wrong, I would like to be told so. MR.

McGILL: Well, the difference in the admin istration figures that we're on now, I guess (b)(1), is some $47,000 and that difference is due to the maintaining of vacancies in the Director of 3017

Thursday, June 1, 1978 position and the Communications Development Officer position. MR. GREEN: Well then I am being much more immediately compensating than I should because then we don't have an explanation, at this point, of the salaries increase in Public Information Services. I think during your opening remarks you touched on it, saying that it is more clearly shown. Perhaps there is a shift from contract positions to staff man year positions but there is a $50,000 increase in Information Services. MR. McGILL: I am advised, Mr.

Chairman, that the salaries of Citizens' Inquiry Service were previously shown under Other Expenditures. I think if the member is looking now at Item 5 down there you will notice that there is quite a difference in Other Expenditures and quite a difference in Salaries. MR. GREEN: Not quite as much as you're looking for. There's a $25,000 difference in Other Expenditures; Salaries, you say, are not related to this increase. We're still short $25,000 increase in salaries in Information Services. MR.

McGILL: Well, part of the difference, part of the increase there is because of the transfer of Information Services salaries from the Other Expenditures to the Salaries line. MR. GREEN: I had that at $25,000 - from $79,000 to $54,000 is $25,000 reduction in Other Expenses; add on the salaries of Information Services and it still leaves you $25,000 to account for . MR. McGILL: Oh, I'm sorry, Mr.

Chairman, we are a little mixed up here and I suppose it's our fault for jumping down to Public Information Services' salaries here but I'm suggesting to you that the reduction of Other Expenditures from $131,600 to $87,400 accounts for a good part of the increase on Salaries, transferring that up to the other. You were looking at the Communications one at the top. Yes. MR. GREEN: That's right; that's right. I see, what you say is that in Other Expenditures under Public Information Services there is a transfer. MR. McGill: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: From (

b) to (a). MR. GREEN: Yes, that's fine. Now, Mr. Chairman, we are now in the field where I can discuss this public expenditures for the propagation of political propaganda on the part of the now Conservative Administration which I think is a valid subject for discussion here. Mr.

Chairman, several weeks ago, or perhaps 10 days ago, I tried in what I thought was a very descriptive and demonstrative fashion, to prevail upon the Minister that he is using public funds for the purpose of selling the programs of the Conservative administration rather than for the purposes of making citizens aware of information which they 11eed for the purpose of having the government services maximized by them which I think has been the traditional rationale for the expenditure of public moneys in this area. It's interesting, Mr.

Chairman , t hat this area has not been subject to the kind of restraint in any event that has been given in other departments. Here is an area, here is a field where moneys could be saved and to , I think, the great satisfaction of every person in the Province of Manitoba and without any reduction in services . We reduced Rent Stabilization , which certainly people are affected by, from $759,000 to $552,000 and perhaps the Minister will do it without reducing services although I find it very difficult to believe.

We've taken this propaganda department and increased it from $418,700 to $424,100 when there could have been an absolute reduction in expenditure with no loss, Mr. Chairman, of services to the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Chairman, this is what we would lose and when I say that I tried to demonstrate just what is happening in this area, I wrote to the Information Services after I read a document published by that department which referred to a speech that Mr. Downey made on how easy it will be to opt out of the Cattle Breeders' Program. Now, Mr. Chairman, this was a speech made by Mr.

Downey; it wasn't even one that was made to the Legislature; it wasn't one that was made on the introduction of a bill. I want to know how the people of Manitoba are better off hearing Mr. Downey's views on how easy it is to opt out as against hearing Mr. Cherniack's views and my views on how terrible the bill is. 1 say, Mr. Speaker, with all respect , that the peop le of the Province of Manitoba are served more - and this is very subject ive but I do it quite deliberately - by hearing how bad that bill is rather than how good it is. Now, I realize that is subjective and therefore it is rather 3018

Thursday, June 1, 1978 self-pleading to say that they are more interested in what I have to say than what Mr. Downey has to say or that they will profit more by hearing what I have to say or what Mr. Cherniack has to say than what Mr. Downey has to say. But, Mr. Chairman, I say that you should publish neither, that the citizens of Manitoba are not being served by the publication of this information, that what is attempted to be served is the Conservative Party of the Province of Manitoba. The Conservative Party should look after its own politics. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I am bringing this up as an individual, I will readily recognize that previous governments have been as guilty as we are - as you are, I should say - MR. MCGILL: As you are. MR. GREEN: As we are, right, right. I acknowledge that. As we are and as you are. But how long do we have to continue this not two wrongs make a right, but ten wrongs make a right. How many wrongs do we have to compound on top of one another in order to correct this situation? I can, in small defence, Mr.

Chairman, in small defence of myself, because I am responsible for everything that the New Democratic Party did , as a member of the Cabinet I accept responsibility for it, but it is well known - and you can check your records - that I did not use Information Services . I used them for taking material that I wrote, had done in my office and sent down to them for distribution or for the arrangement of media press conferences which I am prepared to have them do for anybody . MR.

CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen , in accordance with Rule 19(2), the hour of 4:30 having arrived, I am interrupting the proceedings of the committee for Private Members' Hour and will return at 8:00 p.m . SUPPLY - HEALTH AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT MR. CHAIRMAN: I would draw the honourable members' attention to page 40 under the Estimates of Health and Social Development. We are on Resolution No. 60.(d)-Psychiatric Services,

(1) Salaries. (1)-pass - the Honourable Meer for St. Boniface. MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister would care to break down the staff between Forensic Services, the Winnipeg Psychiatric Institute, Community Services to C thhildren and Eden Mental Health Centre, please. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman , the Winnipeg Psychiatric Institute involves 5 five staff, that is civil servants provincial staff, one psychiatrist, one psychologist, one occupational therapist, and 2 two activities aides.

Eden Mental Health Centre is 4 staff positions, again we're talking about direct civil service provincial staff , 2 psychiatrists , one of whom is Medical Director and one position of which is vacant , one psychologist, and one social worker who is the Director of Social Services. -(Interjection)- No, that's it. Community Services to Children, 18 staff including 9 psychiatrists , 8 eight councillors and one secretary. Of the 9 positions for psychiatrists, 3 are filled on a full-time basis, 5 on a half-time basis and one is vacant. The 8 councillor positions that I gave the Honourable Member for St.

Boniface , 7 are filled with incumbents who are deployed to the various regions: Norman has one, Thompson one, Interlake 2, Central 2 2, and Eastman one, so the other one would be attached to our Regional Office here in Winnipeg . Forensic Servic es 9 staff, Mr. Chairman. In adult Forensic Services, 2 full-time psychiatrists including the Director, one virtually full-time psychiatrist, 4 1f2 days per week who is employed at Headingley Correctional Institution, and one full-time psychologist. Children's Forensic Services one full-time - well I'd better do it this way ...

Children's Forensic Services, 5 psychiatrists but only one of them is full-time, one is two days per week, 2 are 3 1f2 days per week and one is one full day plus 2 1f2 days per week. Children's Forensic Services, Mr. Chairman, still on that point, one full-time psychologist . I guess that's the list, Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. MR. SAUL A. MILLER: Mr.

Chairman, for a number of years the courts have expressed a concern that in dealing with juveniles and others, but juveniles, as I recall, they've always felt there was a severe lack of facilities for emotionally disturbed children who perhaps needed psychiatric care rather than custodial care, and in trying to dispose of the cases before them, they've often referred to the lack of this kind of service within the area because the juvenile in question perhaps needed 3019

Thursday, June 1, 1978 psychiatric attention and should not be simply placed in a correctional atmosphere, or custodial atmosphere . Can the Minister make any comment on that at this time and does he have any plans to meet the concern expressed by the courts in the past? MR. SHERMAN: I don 't know that I can be much more enlightening to the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks than I have been in earlie r remarks that I have expressed on the subject and I leave the determination to him as to whether that was enlightening at all.

I am working with officials in my department on hoped-for solution at the earliest possible time to the need for psychiatric beds for emotionally disturbed juveniles, adolescents . As I indicated in examination of some of the resolutions already covered, we have not moved in terms of construction of a new facility such as the proposed 20-bed adolescent psychiatric facility that was to be adjacent to the Health Sciences Centre.

I've commented on that and the decision to put that project in the same category as all other capital construction projects at the present time, that is in a holding pattern where we have to take them a step at a time as we feel the economy permits . That does not in any way militate against the efforts to find some beds and to locate them in an available facility; there are a number of sites under consideration and a number of subject areas that have been discussed .

They range from efforts being made to free-up some beds in the Health Sciences Centre to full-scale examination of the possibilities of conversion of the old Grace Hospital , or part of the old Grace Hospital, to that kind of use. That is a current and ongoing study project among my officials and me, but I can't provide the honourable member with an answer or a conclusion at this point. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface . MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman , I think that the Minister was kind enough to give us a lot of flexibility , and you also, Mr.

Chairman. for the children, so I think we've We've talked about these 20 beds covered that quite extensively . I don 't think there's any point in rehashing this again . But in the announcement about two years ago, when these 20 beds were announced , there was also another 20 beds for senior people, and I'd like to know where that is. I think at the time it was thought that the 40 beds would be in the Harry Medovy place , and that was changed. We know about 20 beds, but what about the other 20? MR. SHERMAN: That's in the same category, Mr. Chairman .

When I talk about psychiatric beds, I've talked about them for juveniles and for adults ; the honourable member is quite correct. The projections were for 40; 20 for adults , 20 for juveniles ; I would like to get 40, if I can. At the moment, I'll take any that I can get. The kinds of explorations that we're embarked upon at the moment are directed in terms generally of 20 for juveniles in a facility or a site such as the old Grace Hospital, and six, or as many more as we can get, for adults in the Health Sciences Centre. MR. DESJARDINS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, just to save time, because we've spent a lot of time in this department and we're not finished - the same concern that we've had about the 20 psychiatric beds for the youngsters , the children, this institution could be used as a day facility for people coming in for treatment . The same concern that we expressed then, of course, would go for this other part of the service . Before we leave this item though, Mr. Chairman, the Minister told us that the delinquent camp, I think, was proceeded - not necessarily in the same place , but there was another area.

I wonder, in a few words, if the Minister can give us a report on that; how many patients, or clients, whatever? And then, the Minister could maybe tell us if that will help in the reduction of people that have been sent outside the province, also. We've covered that very briefly; I think there was just a mention of it. MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman . That Wilderness Camp - I think the honourable member is correct - perhaps it was cited for some other location, but it's at Elbow Lake, which is north-east of Lac du Bonnet .

Am I correct? -(Interjection)- (Yes) It might have been intended for a different destination at one point , but it's at Elbow Lake now. There are 15 spaces, all occupied, I believe. The impact of that and community work has produced a substantial reduction in the number of out-of-province placements from some -(Interjection)- very close to 100, or 102, a year ago or two years ago -(Interjection)- Two years ago. It was 102, two years ago, to 23 at the present time, Mr. Chairman. Obviously, that's a bigger discrepancy than 15, but that's where 15 of them were. MR. DESJARDINS: That's what I was going to say, Mr.

Chairman. That is one of the parts that has made this possible, but you know , it might be misleading for somebody that really doesn't know 3020

Thursday, June 1, 1978 the details, or doesn't understand the organization, to think that 15 spaces will save 100 spaces out of the province . I think that that should be clarified. MR. CHAIRMAN: (1)-pass; (2)-pass; (d)-pass; (

e) Institutional Mental Health Services,

(1) Salaries-pass; (2) - The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, there have been - unsubstantiated, I know - but there have been stories appearing in the press on and off , about the reduction of care in these institutions, staffing-wise, the quality of the standards, the food, the cut-down in services, even so far as the food is concerned, in the desire to cut expenditures. Although there is an increase here, it's a slight one.

It's not enough to cover normal inflation rates , if you're talking in terms of feeding people in institutions, so that if they haven't got the funds, they're going to have to cut down something , and the concern we have is that they will be cutting down on such things as food. Can the Minister assure the House that that is not the case, and that the concern expressed by people is not based on fact, but on fear that something may occur, but the fact hasn't occurred?

We, on this side, would like that assurance because I think the Minister will have to agree that to try to cut operating costs by reducing the staff ratios, or by reducing the expenditures for food and other services, the maintenance, the housekeeping , that that might indeed save money , but that hardly makes for the kind of institutions where people can and will get the proper treatment, either for long-term stay or for short-term stay. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, the justification for arriving at the particular amount the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks sees in front of him stems is a substantial part from the balance unspent in that appropriation last year, and has nothing, in fact , to do with restraint.

We have, of course, imposed the normal restraints on out-of-province travel, and that type of thing; on institutional programming personnel, the same as we have done within the department, but the appropriation and the level of the appropriation in terms of the food and other services being offered to the populations in the institutions has not been affected by restraint at all.

There was $400,000 unspent out of last year's appropriation, the actual vote of $2.7 million, so we worked on a base of actual spending for 1977-78, which was $2,333,000; that we used as the revised base for developing this year's appropriation which, in those terms, takes into account the normal price increases that we are facing . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister would be kind enough to give us a breakdown of the staff man years, both in the Brandon and Selkirk places, and their occupation; medical, or nursing, whatever?. MR.

SHERMAN : Mr. Chairman , staff man years for Brandon and Selkirk . In the medical category: Brandon 22," Selkirk 18; Nursing: Brandon 336, Selkirk 261; Social Services: Brandon 22, Selkirk 19; Psychology: Brandon 13, Selkirk 9; Other Treatment: Brandon 51 , Selkirk 28; Resource Service Staff : Brandon 182, Selkirk 178; Education: Brandon 10, Selkirk 9; Term and Holiday Relief - that's contingency staff - Brandon 27, Selkirk 10. So let me give the honourable member first the unadjusted totals: Brandon 663 and for Selkirk 532. Now, there have been some personnel transferred to Community Field Operations.

Transfers to Community Field Operations for Brandon were 2 and for Selkirk were 11. So the adjusted totals in staff man years for Brandon 661, Selkirk 521. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman , there is a figure he gave us for Brandon of 51 and the equivalent for Selkirk was 28. I didn't quite catch what that was. Was that a grab bag of all the other . . . ? MR. SHERMAN: That category is shown as Other Treatment and it basically includes physio-therapists and professionals in that category. -(Interjection)- Well, professional therapists, yes. MR. DESJARDINS: The Minister said professionals. Only professionals? MR.

SHERMAN: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. The Honourable Minister. MR. SHERMAN: Well, the figure would include the professionals and their aides, apparently , Mr. Chairman . It wouldn't be all professionals but it would be people either qualified as professionals 3021

Thursday, June 1, 1978 or working as aides in that category of service. MR. DESJARDINS: Would the Minister be kind enough now to give us the population as of the end of 1976 and the end of December 1977, or later if he has it; I'd like to have it now, if at all possible - the latest that he has. MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman. For Brandon the population , December 1976, was 558, and for Selkirk it was 348; December , 1977, for Brandon was 571 and for Selkirk was 326. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, then there was a transfer. The population is roughly the same. I had 568.

My record showed that at the end of December, 1976 Brandon was 568 - not 558. I don 't know if there was an adjustment between that , but there is not that much . MR. SHERMAN: 1975; it was 567; in 1976 it was 558. MR. DESJARDINS: Well, 575; I've got 595 for December and then December 1976, 568 so it has gone down a little bit. It seems to have gone down in Selkirk and gone up in Brandon. If my record is right for 1976, well then it's only three . So therefore that would seem to be that we have approximately the same staff . I know that we weren 't too happy with the medical staff there.

We tried to recruit , especially in Brandon; there is one less on the medical staff, there are 22 instead of 23. But this is the staff. Are there any vacancies at this time? I'd like to know the vacancies that are in this department , broken down as much as possible . MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman . As of May 10th, the vacancy level at Brandon was 55. It included 29 bulletin and 26 non-bulletin, for a total of 55. That was Brandon. The vacancy rate at Selkirk is 48; 27 bulletin and 21 non-bulletin. MR. DESJARDINS: With this explanation , would that be, Mr.

Chairman , to the Minister , that the bulletin position - that the institution is trying to fill , while the others are left vacant at this time , or are they trying to fill all the positions? MR. SHERMAN: We're trying to fill them in order of need or requirement. There is now no restriction on filling bulletin positions. The situation during the winter was that bulletin positions were frozen and non-bulletin positions were tillable, but each bulletin position had to be dealt with and go through the process of individual vetting and individual approval.

That situation has changed; that embargo does not exist and the department has been given the right to work with the two institutions to fill the vacancies as necessary up to a certa in vacancy level, in whatever category - either bulletined or non-bulletined. The total vacancy level for the two institutions is 100, which amounts to nine percent and that is flexible as to the particular numeral to be applied to the individual institution and it's flexible within the institution as to what the numerals should be for bulletin as against non-bulletin . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks . MR.

MILLER: Mr. Chairman, just for clarification, does the Minister know or can he tell us whether the vacancy rate he just indicated - the 100 - how that is comparable with, let's say, a year ago? MR. SHERMAN: My officials tell me that this year, as compared to last year, would show about 30 more vacancies in total - bout 30 more vacancies as compared to the total last year . MR.

MILLER: Because there is no requirement that they remain vacant, is the Minister saying that the 30 more vacancies are simply due to the fact that they can't find staff to fill the vacancies - because there is no embargo on hiri ng, I gather? MR. SHERMAN: No, I'm not saying that , Mr. Chairman. There is an embargo. There is a vacancy level that has been decreed for the two institutions in total , at this point , as 100. Therefore , we are looking at the present time at something slightly more than 100 vacancies.

We are actively in the process of filling five of those vacancies right now , which will bring us down inside the 100 vacancy ceiling. Those five are actually bulletin positions at Brandon that we're in the process of filling which will bring us down inside the 100 vacancy ceiling . If it proves impractical and in any way difficult and unreasonable to operate at that level, well the department , and I, as Minister, will be in communication on an ongoing basis with Management Committee of Cabinet and Cabinet 3022 .. -'

Thursday, June 1, 1978 itself to have that figure adjusted . But the vacancies that are there right now - all of which have developed through attrition - are vacancies that have been allowed to build up to the 100 vacancy ceiling. They have gone slighly beyond it in the last couple of weeks. MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman , then can I ask whether the figure of $16 million for Salaries shown here is based on that kind of vacancy level being maintained all year or whether that $16 million is to reflect the possibility of a full staffing? MR. SHERMAN: At the time the budget was prepared, Mr.

Chairman, it was actually based on a somewhat lower vacancy level than that, so it's possible there could be some residual funds there. But it's also possible that we may need them, as we test the situation month by month in terms of staff. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I'm not quite clear; I think I am; I'm not sure. The Minister said that there were in Brandon 55 vacancies and he broke these down between bulletin and those that were not bulletin - 29 and 26. He did the same thing in Selkirk .

Then I thought he said that they were going ahead and filling the bulletin positions and the others if needed, but they had to come back to the department. Then the Minister told us, though , that there was a vacancy level, in other words, of 100. So that's practically the total. The vacancy is only 103, a nd the Minister said there were five being filled. So that would leave it at this 100. Now, the only change in this is the Minister is saying that this is not frozen solid.

In other words, if the institution can go back and say, " We need these people," and make the case, the Minister will go to Cabinet and Management and let them fill some of these positions. Is that a clea r understanding of what the Minister said? MR. SHERMAN: The honourable member is partially right. The fact is that from this point forward any vacancy occurring now will automatically be filled, no matter which institution or no matter whether bulletined or non-bulletined, because we are at the 100 vacancy level. Well, we are at 103. We are going to fill five positions which would make 98.

There might be a little discrepancy of two vacancies in there but the last figures I was able to give you were May 10th and it's possible that on a current basis , actually this afternoon, that the filling of the five will only bring it down to exactly 100. 1 will check that. When we are at exactly 100, that's as far as I have to go. Any vacancy after that can be filled immediately.

But what I am saying to the honourable members is that if my officals and the administrations of the two hospitals come to me a month from now and say that a level of 100 is too high and were having difficulties , then , yes, I have the right to go back to Cabinet and ask to have that ceiling lowered . MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, again I would like to ask the Minister . . .

And I think I have been more than patient on this - I asked about two months before we started the Estimates, I asked the first day we started the Estimates and I have repeatedly asked - I would like to have the vacancies roughly around November 1st, when there was a change of administration and a change of Minister, of all civil servants and all staff man years, all the vacancies that we had in the department. And I was promised that and, you know , it would come in handy if we had it here . I hope we're going to get it before we finish the Estimates . It's not going to serve me too well if we don't get it then.

Now, Mr. Chairman, I am concerned . I don't want to exaggerate this, but let's look at the difference. The Minister is always saying, "We are maintaining. We are not improving as now, but we are maintaining all the services ." Now, we had restraint last year and we kept the vacancies down, but there is a difference of 30. The Minister also said in this House, gave us his own personal commitment, that the staff-patient ratio would be the same, and it's approximately the same if you add the two that we had last year and this year. Well, no, that 's the end of 1977, there might be more people now.

The Minister gave me the last figure that he seemed to have, because I asked him to give me the latest one that he had; it was the population in these institutions at the end of December, 1977. And I think at the time he said , well, there were less people in the winter, maybe more in the summer; and since then we didn 't have more facilities . I don't think there have been that many deaths and there are more people .

There is a possibility that more people are there, or should be waiting to get in, because we haven't done anything for psychiatric beds in the general hospitals or in the acute care hospitals across the province . We haven't built any personal care beds . So I am concerned that we are slipp ing. It might not be much now. I don 't want to make a 3023

Thursday, June 1, 1978 federal case out of this at this time , but I want to tell the Minister that we're going to watch quite closely because the commitment that we had then is not kept. And as I say, there is not that much that I'm going to make a big case out of , but there are 30 vacancies more . And 30 out of what? A total of 1,000 or so, over 1,000, might not be too much. As I say, at this time I am not going to worry too muc . But that 's not the only thing .

I know the gentleman from Brandon West was quite concerned and my colleague also, the then the Minister of Industry , especially with the medical staff that we had in Brandon . We weren't satisfied . We were trying ; we weren't too successful mind you but we were trying to recruit more for those areas . It was quite difficult but we were trying to get any psychiatrist that we could get. We hired them fast because we needed them all through the system, especially in those areas. My other concern is that there is something that we are supposed to take the Minister's word for .

I'm sure he is sincere but I don't know how this thing works. The Minister said , "If the staff of these institutions tell me we need more, well , I'm going to go back . .. " You know , we need more. The welfare of the patient or the standards will suffer. Then the Minister - and I believe that - will go to his colleagues and then he will go to Management and get more - recruit more . But what guidance or what standards do they measure? Because just about a year or a year and a half ago the people in those institutions weren't too happy and the director wasn't too happy .

I visited the Brandon institution and I was told that they were away down on staff, that they wanted more people , that they had been pretty well robbed . We had sent people; we had taken people there; we had reduced the staff but even then they were short-staffed before that. We had reduced the population ; we were transferring people into the community , some of the staff to the community. In fact , we kind of slowed down on that and they felt that they were short-staffed. Now, it's the same staff .

They told their Minister a little while ago that they needed more staff, that it was starting to be on the danger side as far as they were concerned , and now they are told , "If you need more; if you feel that the standard is going to suffer, come and tell me." I would think that they would come in then immediately when the Minister issued that memo to their director , that they would come the next day and say, " We're in danger.

The standard will suffer because we haven't got the proper staff ." Either that or they feel that they were given other guidance, and maybe the Minister said to keep a certain standard but the standard must have been lowered . If the standard wasn't lowered and if they stayed with the same staff - it was honest then and is honest now and I have no reason to believe that they aren 't as concerned - they would come immediately to the Minister and say, "We need more. We need more staff so you will have to go to your people and ask them to unfreeze that." You know, if that is not the case, then these are empty words.

They don't mean anything and we're going to have to take them with a grain of salt. The standard must have been lowered or it doesn't mean a thing . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. SHERMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I have been back to Management Committee and Cabinet on two occasions and each time my request, which was based on the advice from officals in the institutions, was accepted and adjustments were made . One had to do with the Manitoba School for Retardates in Portage , where the staffing freeze was lifted entirely . The other had to do with the present situation in Brandon and Selkirk.

There was heavy attrition in the month of April. For what reason, I don 't know but the vacancy level in Brandon on March 31st was 38 and on May 10th, as I told the honourable member, it was 55. So there was an attrition of 17 in the month of April and that began to worry my officals and me and we went to Management Comm ittee and Cabinet and got permission to fill five positions right away, which is what we're now in the process of doing. And it was at that juncture that the 100 vacancy level ceiling was set for the two institutions, which works out to a rate of nine percent.

All I can do is assure my honourable friend that if a red light goes on again, I will be back there again and ask that that vacancy level be reduced from 100 to 90, or to 85, or to whatever the professionals tell me they need . I know the previous government was aiming for a vacancy rate of 10 percent, they didn't achieve it. I think they achieved a vacancy rate of about 6 percent but I believe they were aiming for a vacancy rate of 10 percent .

We, in fact, are aiming for a vacancy rate of nine , and at a 100 vacancies in those two institutions, that's what it would be and anything beyond that we can fill immediately . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: It is some explanation but I'm not wholly satisfied . I don't question the sincerity of the Minister in this at all but the fact is . .. This famous red light that the Minister is saying, 3024

Thursday, June 1, 1978 when the red light goes then I'll go back to Cabinet. But the fact is that last year there were 30 less vacancies, 30 people employed out of 103 and the people were still no t satisfied . They felt that because there had been adjustment before when we reduced the population , some of the people had been sent in the field , or you know, by attrition they weren't filled . .. The morale was quite low, to be honest with the Ministe r, and I felt it warranted a trip to Brandon to go and discuss with them.

I met with the whole staff , the senior staff anyway , and they made the poin t quite clear to me that they had a shortage and some of them even came back to see me private ly in the office and were even talking and threatening of leaving because there was no way that they could deliver the service, and that's with 30 more than they have now and the Minister is saying well , we will keep it approximately at this level. Now I'm not debating what the government is trying to do.

If the Minister said the Cabinet has decided, now if I myself feel that that 's not enough, I will go back and get more , but the Minister is more or less putting the blame on the institution, and he is saying . . . I'm not saying that he's trying to hide that's not the point I'm trying to make, but he is saying well when the people in the institution tell me. You know we can have that pattern all through these Estimates - well it's going to be left to the hospital and if the hospital comes back and so on.

But these people - told me that at this time, I mean as professionals they really felt that there was a shortage of staff, quite a shortage of staff and we'll come bac k to the Portage . Portage , we were told there were 200 shortage of staff , you know , by the same people that are there but I don't want to mix things up because the next item is Portage . I want to just talk about Selkirk and Brandon . These people then tell us that there is a shortage although there were 30 people more. The Minster seemed to indicate , well they are satisfied, they 've accepted that.

Well, the civi l servants have to accept whatever the government of the day decides. But , you know, should we question the integrity of these people or should I take it from that that they have been trying to con me when I was there , that all of a sudden they didn 't need these people at all. I hesita te in making th is accusation and I say that this is in danger now, especially if the Minister said that there were 38 in March I think, and it went all the way to 55.

In a month that can come fast and then the Minister froze everything until they got this 100 percent, then they got a little lower than the 100 percent so they said well let's go to the 100 percent. But if you lose that many people a month, even if you try to replace them because you might as well say you know, forget this 100. I don't know why you're budgeting for a 100 more when you say you 're not going to release them, I don't know what this is for. I don't know if it's to indicate later on that you saved money, that it has been better management and money was saved but I think this is false .

This is why in a way I sympathize with the Minister . All through his Estimates he said well we're not finished with our policies , but in the meantime we're asking to approve Estimates . It is practically a guessing game. Now, today my colleague asked if this would represent the whole staff and if I understood the question it would be to pay everybody, the full complement and now ... -(Interjection)- No. Oh, that 's not counting the 100 vacancies, I'm sorry I had it backwards. Then that means that it would go to pay just the complement of people that are hired now.

That might change , there might be more people in one area. If later on he comes back and he wants to fill in any of these 100 positions - I'm not talking about any future vacancies that happen, but these 100, all those 100, then you 'd have to come and ask for more money . MR. SHERMAN: There's some leeway in there, Mr. Chairman , because when the budget was prepared, or when this stage of it was prepared some three months ago, at that point in time we were basing it on a somewhat lower vacancy rate, then attrition took place at a more rapid rate than we had projected, so there is some leeway .

In other words , we could bring that vacancy ... Say we found we had to bring the vacancy level down by 10, 15 or 20, there's enough leeway in """' the budget to pay those salaries . MR. DESJARDINS: There's not enough money to pay the full complement. If tomorrow the 103 positions were filled there wouldn't be enough money , but there is enough to pay a certain percentage if you have to dip in lower than that because - at one time they were lower, even more vacancies than that - that would give you a cushion.

Well then , why is the Minister asking for the same positions if he hasn't got the money to pay for them ? You know, I think that we should look at the cushion , it would be a little easier and it would be more realistic and more, well , I'm not going to say honest because I don't think this is a scheme to lower that but the thing is there 's not enough money to pay them so maybe the Minis ter should say we are reducing 50 and keep a cush ion of 50, maybe tha t should be done. My first concern hasn't changed at all.

As I say, the staff , the same senior staf f that are there now were there when I visited Brandon, some of them were over to visit me privately, they wanted to talk to me privately and they were very concerne d. Some of them threatened to leave because they felt that they were short- staffed and they felt that maybe we were going too fast. That, by 3025

Thursday, June 1, 1978 the way, is also true - and we'll come back to that - of Portage. It was felt that our policy of trying to depopulize these institutions and taking some of that staff, therefore reducing the staff and send them into the communities wasn't quite fair. They felt that you don't necessarily take, let's say the ratio is 1 to 5 or something, you don't necessarily leave 10 people and take 1 staff out. So, they were concerned.

This is my last concern, I understand the rest, but the Minister is saying well if they tell me that this is too low, they're ' not for the welfare of the patient, they cannot operate with this staff. Well, they've already told their Minister that. Sure, there was a change of Minister, a change of government, but they've already said that so if the Minister is saying tell me if you can keep the standards that you have now, that you should have, don't forget that we lost accreditation in Brandon for awhile also, and that was one of the reasons . I don't know if the Minister really understands what I'm saying .

How can he say well, it's up to the institution - I can't guarantee that they haven't - and the minute they tell me that's not sufficient staff, I will immediately and I make a promise that I will go to my colleagues and try to get this vacancy rate lowered. Well, that staff has already made their views known on this, so if this is realistic and if this is really what they understand and if this is really what the Minister means, well then

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-2-54a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 2nd hansardpdf 54a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e9cdb82ab96b0486834cb1a29ddf5075e5f044c3

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