Manitoba Hansard — 30 April 1979 (Sitting 50A, 31st Legislature, 3rd Session)

31-3-50a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

... .. ,.. .. ... .. ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 28 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL XXVII No. SOA 2:30 P.M. Monday, April 30, 1979 Office of the Queen 's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

... .. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, April 30, 1979 Time: 2:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle-Russell): Before we proceed , I should like to draw the honourable members attention to the gallery, where we have 45 students of Grades 10, 11 and 12 standing from the A.D. Parker Collegiate in Thompson. These students are under the direction of Mr. Doug Reimer; and this school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Thompson, the Honourable Minister of LabOur .

We also have 22 students of Grade 11 standing from the Nelson Mcintyre Collegiate , under the direction of Mr. Koth . This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Vital. On behalf of all the honourable members , we welcome you here this afternoon . Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions ... Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education . HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli): Mr.

Speaker , I beg leave to present the Annual Report of the Publ ic Schools ' Finance Board for the year ending December 31, 1978. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Education. ~ MR. COSENS: And also , Mr. Speaker , I beg leave to present Order for Return No. 57. .. • .. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines , Resources and the Environment. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker , I have the April 30th flood report prepared by the Water Resources Division .

Weather reports indicate that from 5 to 10 millimeters of precipitation has fallen in the Manitoba portion of the Red River Valley during the past 24 hours . Less than 5 millimeters have fallen in the United States portion of the Red River Basin. Precipitation totals in the Red River Valley for the past few days now average about 10 millimeters , with greater amounts in the western tributar ies, and lesser amounts in the eastern tributaries and in the United States . This precipitation will not increase predicted peak levels on the Red River .

The Red River crested at Emerson late on Apr il 29th at a stage of 791.16, which is 0.84 feet below the predicted peak of 792. Accordingly, peak stages will be somewhat lower than expected at downstream points . During the last 24 hours, water levels have risen by 0.26 feet at Letellier , 0.33 feet at St. Jean , 0.61 feet at Morris, 0.43 feet at St. Agathe, and by 0.34 feet at St. Adolphe. Stages upstream of the Red River Floodway Inlet Structure have decreased by 0.05 feet.

Water levels in the City of Winnipeg have risen by 0.3 feet since yesterday . · The water level at Windygates has increased by about two feet since yesterday - that's on the Pembina River - water levels downstream of Windygates are also increasing as the second crest approaches . The Pembina River is expected to crest near Neche in early May at a stage approx imately three feet below that which occurred on April 21st . On the Assiniboine River , water levels in the Shellmouth Reservoir have risen by 1.11 feet in the last 24 hours .

All inflow into the Shellmouth Reservoir continues to be stored , thereby reducing flows downstream . Water levels are declining along the Assinibo ine River upstream of Griswold . The River is near peak at Griswold . Stages at this location have increased by 0.17 feet since yesterday . At Brandon water levels have not changed since April 29th . Wate r levels at . Portage Ia Prairie have risen by 3351

Monday, April 30, 1979 0.64 feet since yesterday. At the present time, approximately 12,200 cubic feet per second is being diverted into the Portage Diversion in order to reduce downstream flows . Below Portage Ia Prairie, water levels have decreased by 1.2 feet at Baie St. Paul and by 1.57 feet at Headingley since yesterday. The flow at Headingley is 8,400 cubic feet per second. Water levels along the Sour is River in the Melita Area have risen by about 0.2 feet in the last 24 hours . At Souris , water levels are unchanged from yesterday , while stages at Wawanesa have decreased by 0.16 feet.

The Souris River is expected to crest in Manitoba during the second week of May. Thank you . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker , the news which the Minister has brought to us today pertaining to the earlier-than-expected stage of crest , and the fact that the peak stages will be lower at the downstream points than had earl ier been anticipated , is I believe information that all Manitobans will be pleased to hear, and of course in parti cular those Manitobans that have been affected in the Red River Basin itself.

So I wish to, on behal f of our group , thank the Minister for this welcome news. I believe we must still be cautious in the event of an unfavourable turn insofar as the elements are concerned , but at this point I believe that we have much to be thankful for. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways . HON. HARRY J. ENNS (lakeside): Thank you, Mr. Speaker . A brief

summary of the activities of the Emergency Measures Organization and their flood fighting efforts : Mr. Speaker , once again I do not have the papers, this is a

summary of a rather big report. I will see to it that the Leader of the Opposition has a copy of the same within minutes , Sir. Do I have leave to give a brief report? (Agreed) I wish to simply indicate, Mr. Speaker, that the principal job of the people in the field is now to search out and to identify any isolated people who may still be in the general area - that is proceeding well.

The arrangements have been made for mail service for the some 7,000 people who have been evacuated from the Red River Valley, they can pick up their mail at the General Post Office or indeed the Post Office encourages them to send in Change of Address cards if indeed they want their mail redirected . The additional members of the militia , some 60 men in total , have been sent into the ring dike areas to assist those Armed Forces personnel that are already there to help with the ongoing dike watch and/or diking activity that may indeed still be required . As I mentioned , Mr.

Speaker, in total, some 7,000 people have evacuated the Valley at this time , with some 1,500 requiring attention through our reception centres, some 1,500 that have registered, which indicates that a large number of the majority of them are making indeed their own arrangements . We have received many donations of food and services from different commercial organizations that have supplied and kept the reception areas in such things as coffee, doughnuts, pizzas.

The only other principle announcement that I would have, a measure taken by the Emergency Measures at this time was to restrict flying of aircraft in the general area to those that are flying below 3,000 feet. There has been, Mr. Speaker, understandably , a great deal of interest by all kinds of persons who wish to view or travel through the area and as of today , Emergency Measures Organizations has requested the limitation to flying below 3,000 feet in that general area to the military aircraft and to the Midwes t Aircraft that are leased to the government on this occasion and one other carrier.

But other than that, the general public is asked to take heed and take note of the restriction because there is understandably a heightened amount of flying that's taking place over the Valley at this time and we wish to avoid any possibility of accidents. Thank you , Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, speaking from the brief

summary which the Minister provided to us of his statement , and I gather it is only part of the total report, and I would trust and hope that the Minister would expeditiously forward to us a copy of his total report , so that we could better revaluate the work of EMO falling under the auspices of his department. We do, however , appreciate the information provided to us and I believe that again , it indicates that Manitobans, whether it is in the category of volunteers or in their municipal responsibility as trustees of the affairs of the ratepayers that they represent , or whether it be the provincial government through the agency of 3352 .. ...

.,- • • .. Monday, April 30, 1979 EMO, have reacted as one would wish them to react in a critical situation such as this, and particularly I believe that our feelings must go out to all those Manitobans that have sacrificed and con tri buted many many hours in manning the dikes , in building those dikes. Some I know have put in 12, 14, 18 hours a day and certainly it is to those Manitobans that our fondest appreciation must be extended to under these circumstances . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to table a Department of Labour and Manpower Status Report on the Lead-in-Blood Survey of School Children . Arrangements to conduct the lead-in-blood survey in children in Weston School and Lord Nelson School are now complete . The implementation phase of this survey has been greatly assisted by the full co-operation of several concerned agencies and departments .

At the provincial level the Departments of Health and Community Services , Education, Mines , Natural Resources and Environment and Labour and Manpower, have participated in conjunction with the City of Winnipeg Health Department , the School Board of the Winnipeg School Division No. 1 and the principals of Weston and Lord Nelson Schools . The basic organizational status of the Planned School Children Survey may be stated as follows:

(1) An approach was made to the Winnipeg School Division seeking permission to conduct the survey . Permission was granted by the school board .

(2) A letter has, today , been sent to the parents of children attending Weston and Lord Nelson Schools, explaining the details of the survey and requesting permission to remove a 10 mi. (1/3 oz.) blood sample from each child.

(3) Arrangements have been made with the school principals to conduct the sampling on May 7th at Weston School and May 8th at Lord Nelson School.

(4) Staff for the sampling team have been provided through the co-operation of the City of Winnipeg Health Department and the Department of Health and Community Services . The city will provide a nurse for each sampling team and the provincial department will provide a steno and a medical technologist. Arrangements have been made to have a medical officer to be in attendance at all times .

(5) Laboratory analysis of the samp les will be conducted by chemists of the Department of Labour and Manpower, utilizing facilities and equipment provided by both the Departments of Mines, Natural Resources and Environment and Labour and Manpower . The same rigid quality control procedures that apply to the industrial samples will be maintained for the school children's samples. While our letter to the parents states results will be reported in four to six weeks , we truly expect to complete the analysis within four weeks .

(6) The exact test results will be mailed directly to parents along with an explanation of the significance of the results. Parents will be advised if any treatment is necessary .

(7) The provinc ial Department of Health will medically follow up on any child who displays an abnormal result. All participating departments and agencies will co-operate in attempting to identify the source of contamination of any child with an abnormal result. While we fully expect the lead-in-blood levels will be somewhat lower than the prev ious survey conducted in 1976, due to improved industrial pollution control measures and the more extensive use of unleaded gasoline , the question of our children's health is too important to be left to such assumptions.

We have, therefore , proceeded in earnest with this survey , so the parents of these children will be assured . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you , Mr. Speaker. We thank the Min ister very kindly for the information that he has provided us today.

We, on this side of the House, who have been cognizant of the problems involved with the lead-using indust ries in the province o.f Manitoba for some time now, are pleased to see that this study of the school children is going ahead and are pleased to see that it's being done with some dispatch, so that the testing can be completed before the school year is over this year .

We, as I'm certain the parents in the area, look forward to the results, and we would hope that the Minister would also tab le the general results, the statistical results in the House , so that we may have opportunity also to appraise ourselves of the effectiveness of the pollution control devices that have been put in, in recent years and the effectiveness of their testing methods . Until such a time that those results are available, I think it is best now to simply conclude by saying that we do appreciate the effort that is being made and we hope that it is a signal of 3353

Monday, April 30, 1979 many more come in from different people efforts that will be made as the requests and different agencies within the province for testing so that we once and for all can get a truly complete picture of the lead poisoning crisis in the Province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills. . . Oral Questions . . . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker , I would like to, as a matter of privilege of the House, raise an item of deep concern to me and that is: last Monday , April 23, 1979, I enquired from the Minister of Finance as to whether or not he had an announcement that date as to the presentation to the House of the 1979 Budget. The Minister of Finance answered and indicated that he expected to provide us with an answer by the end of that week. This morning , Mr. Speaker , I heard a report to the effect that the Minister of Finance had announced outside the House that the budget would not be presented for some weeks .

I find this most discomfor ting and distressing , Mr. Speaker, that in fact while we awaited an announcement from the Minister of Finance last week as to the date of the presentation of the Budget, that a report should reach our ears this morning that there will be a delay of some weeks prior to the presentation of the Budge t d ue to the flooding situation in the Province of Manitoba . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader . HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Speaker , the Honourable Member 's rising on a question of privilege. I should like to comment on that.

I am simply referr ing him to our new rule book which is the rule book that we are now following Beauchesne 's fifth edition and if he would check the Citation 264 on Page 87 of that copy of Beauchesne 's there appears this item : " The option of the Minister to make a statement either in the House or outside it may be the subject of comment, but it is not the subject of a question of privilege ." MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan on the same question of privilege. MR. PETER FOX: Yes, Mr.

Speaker , in respect to the procedure on this matter , I recall that one of the criteria by which we govern ourselves in this House as usage and I do recall the Honourable House Leader raising the same particular question when he was in opposition in respect to these ... particular statements outside of the House or within the House and so therefore I do believe that irrespective of what Beauchesne says, it's what this House is used to and what it uses as it 's precedents that counts and therefore the Honourable House Leader cannot say that this is not a matter of privilege of the House . MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader on the same . . . MR. JORGENSON: My honourable friend raises a very interesing point and that point is to whether or not, now that we do have a most recent copy of Beauchesne 's, whether we set that copy aside or whether we use it as it was intended . My suggestion , Sir, is that that is the rule book that you 're asked to follow and I don't think that you have any alternative but observe that particular citation or any other citation that appears in our present rule book . MR. FOX: I do believe , Mr.

Speaker, that in this regard it's a guide and it's a usage which we are accustomed to and there were no firm rules and there still are no firm rules in that regard . The House makes its own rules and it's the House Leader who previously complained about that and that's all that I am pointing out to you, Sir, that what this House is accustomed to and that is what I am asking that we now ascribe to. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. DONALD W. CRAIK Mr. Speaker, not on the point of privilege (Riel): but if I might address myself to the question raised last week by ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please .

May I point out to the honourable member we can only deal one subject matter at the time. The question before the House now is a matter of privilege that was raised by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, and until we clear up that matter I would ask all members if they wish to make any contribution at all that it be clearly within the matter of privilege 3354 ....

- . .... • .. .. • • .... .. Monday, April 30, 1979 that has been raised by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. TheHonourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't wish to overdwell except to emphasize the point that there was a commitment, I do believe, that the Minister of Finance made in the House on April 23rd, a commitment which was made to this side of the House, that informat ion would be forthcoming pertaining to the presentation of the Budget.

That that information would be presented prior to the conclusion of last week, and it certainly is unsettling and I believe discourteous to this House, Mr. Speaker, that the report says to the Minister's announcement should ensue on a matter so fundamental and so important as the Budget on the morning news, and the reason being given, Mr. Speaker, which may be valid and may not be valid - it was the present flooding situation - in view of the Minister of Natural Resources' announcement earlier this morning.

If that is the case, then possibly the Minister of Finance wants to revise that reason, which was apparently given by the Minister of Finance to the media earlier today . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance on the point of privilege . MR. CRAIK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege, on the same point of privilege, as a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker. I heard the comment on the radio this morning, and it was somewhat interpretive but I wasn't really surprised by the conclusion that was drawn.

The comment that I made was that the flood of last week had revised our planning somewhat with regard to the Budget, that the budget would not be in the House this week at least , because it would appear to be folly to plan the Budget to arrive at approximately the same date as the crest is scheduled to arrive throughout most of southern Manitoba, and that comment was made outside the House, Mr. Speaker, as a very rol:lgh indication of the rationale for the date of the Budget . However, Mr. Speaker, I don't recall saying that it would be several weeks before the budget would be brought in.

The only comment that I've made to the Leader of the Opposition , as a matter of fact, was to indicate a date . He asked me whether or not we expected to bring it in before the May 22nd Federal election , and I said that I would trust that the House might even be prorogued by that time, Sir, and that of course would indicate that the Budget would very likely be dealt with before the House prorogued. MR. SPEAKER: I have listened to the comments of all the various members on this particular matter . I do have an empathy for the feelings of the Leader of the Opposition.

I feel in my own mind that it is very important that statements with a significant impact on this Chamber should be made in this Chamber itself. However , if what I have heard from the comments of the various members here, we're actually dealing with a non-statement , as far as I'm concerned and I would have to rule that there was no matter of privilege . QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member of the Opposition . MR.

PAWLEY: I wonder if the Minister is in a position this afternoon to elaborate on the non-statement, which apparently was issued earlier today, dealing with the forecast as to the presentation of the Budget to the Assembly . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance . MR. CRAIK: Well , Mr.

Speaker , I can certainly give the member the very definitive answer that it will be a lot sooner than it would have been a week ago and that I expect there is absolutely no doubt that we're much closer to the date of the Budget than we were then and - I will again attempt to advise the member as shortly after the crest of the flood arrives at the outside of the gates of my constituency - than I am right now . MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Attorney-General.

I would like to inquire from • the Attorney-General as to whether he can advise the House as to the contents of the judgment pertaining to one, Borowski, and a "gag-rule" pertaining to the press in any interviews that the press might have with one, Borowski , subsequent to a judgment by Provincial Judge Dubienski? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. 3355

Monday, April 30, 1979 HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osborne): I am aware of the Order , Mr. Speaker . MR. PAWLEY: Well, Mr. Speaker, if the chief administrator of our laws is aware of the Order , I wonder if he could advise the House as to whether or not the Order does in fact prevent the media from interviewing and discussing the matters perta ining to this case with one, Borowski. MR. MERCIER: The Order does , Mr. Speaker . MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, then I wonder if the Attorney-General , as the administrator of the laws of the Province of Manitoba, and to whom we look to for guidance in respect to such matters, could advise the Chamber as to his policy position pertaining to such judgments of this nature pertaining to restrictions insofar as the press are concerned in regard to interviews with convicted parties . MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, the policy is clearly set out in the provisions of the Criminal Code .

I would refer the Honourable Leader of the Opposition to the Criminal Code and the powers of a judge to make such Orders and upon reading same , the answer will become very evident to him . MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , do those prov1s1ons in the Code not relate to the party convicted rather than relating to the media itself? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, the provisions of the Criminal Code would appear to relate only to an Order against the accused , but the circumstances of any action would have to be considered as to whether or not there was a breach of the Order . MR.

PAWLEY: Is the Minister then prepared to share with the Assembly his position as administrator of the laws of the Province of Manitoba pertaining to Orders that exceed or go beyond those provisions of the Code? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, last week I asked the Honourable Minister of Health, but he diverted me towards the Minister of Labour and Manpower , regarding the program of the Summer Day Care and Recreation for the multi ple-handicapped teenagers in the north Winnipeg YMCA.

Could the Honourable the Minister of Labour indicate any progress in this connection? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Yes, Mr. Speaker , progress is being made rather rapidly. It was a matter of failure by somebody someplace through the system of filling out an appropriate application . I understand the application has now been filled out and on its way. The approval for the total program has been concurred with by both the Honourable Minister of Health and myself , and the Member for St . Johns can be assured that program will be in place this summer. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, I want to thank the Honourable Minister and also for the fact that during last week he took the trouble to call me and tell me that they were actively reviewing it. So I want to thank him on that. Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Honourable Attorney-General , who indicated last week or so, that he would be holding meetings with representatives of the Manitoba Bar Association and the Manitoba Lawyers Association , the group dealing with the Crim inal Law, and he said that he would be meeting with them in order to discuss the notice which the Chief of Police of Winnipeg had instructed his staff to review when dealing with people in custody and their right to legal counsel and to see them . I wonder if the Honourable the Attorney-General can inform us as to progress in that regard? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourab le Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: The meeting date has been set , Mr. Speaker. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker , I'm glad to know the meeting date has been set. Would the Honourable the Minister please indicate to us when he expects to meet with them? 3356

• .. • .. "' • Monday, April 30, 1979 MR. MERCIER: I believe the date is some time next week , Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR. RUSSELL DOERN: I would like to direct a question to the First Minister and ask him when the flood fighting is over , whether the government has any plan to specifically study the flood forecasting committee's performance in an attempt to improve the early warning system so that there would be more lead time provided? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. STERLING R. LYON (Charleswood): Well, Mr.

Speaker , all aspects of emergency operations are looked at in a normal way after each one of these experiences that we have had since , in my . experience , 1950, and I am sure that every aspect of the operation learns a little bit more after the unfortunate experience that we have had. To say that there will be special attention paid to flood forecasting would be wrong , but to say that there will be information sought as to what, not only in Canada but in the United States , could be done to improve flood forecasting which is an art, not a science, would be fair comment. And I would not want in any way, Mr.

Speaker , to be critical of the flood forecasters in the presen t spring runoff situation that we have faced, because I am not critical of them . MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker , I would ask the Minister whether he has received any criticisms or comments concerning what has been described as people being lulled by a lack of official concern in relation to possible earlier removal of livestock and grain or in regard to flood preparedness? MR. LYON: The answer in short to the question, Mr. Speaker , is no.

My honourable friend, the Minister of Agriculture , advises me that early in April as a routine matter , all municipalities in the Valley were warned, and their offices were warned of the advisability . I don 't have the document, obviously, in front of me - but of the advisability for people in the Valley to remove stock. That is standard procedure , and the bulk of the peop le in the Valley responded, and responded quite well to that. There are always some people who do not ; but the vast majority of people responded very very well to it. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood with a final supplementary. MR. DOERN: A final question: Is the First Minister satisfied with the Manitoba Flood Forecasting Committee's performance, in that it has been indicated by some people that a warning could have been given in mid -March . MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker , I think it would be wrong for any government tO say, with respect to an emergency situation such as we are going through, that you're totally satisfied with all aspects of the operations .

Obviously , and th is comes from the officials involved themselves, there are soft spots which occur here and there in all parts of an emergency situation. However, with respect to the flood forecasting , and that is a joint responsibility between the federal and the provincial governments , and the American authorities , who are tuned in on it, as I have indicated before, if there are measures that can be taken that we have learned from this experience that would improve the forecasting system , I'm sure the officials would be the first to tell us. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR.

COWAN: Thank you , Mr. Speaker . My question is to the First Minister. Can the First Minister , as Premier of the ProvinCe of Manitoba , and as leader of the Progressive Conservative Party of Manitoba, indicate how many private sector jobs were created by the P.C. Association of Manitoba during the year 1978? MR. SPEAKER: Order please . I suggest to the honourable member that a question of that nature may properly be handled by an Order for Return . MR. LYON: No, Mr. Speaker , with respect , it couldn't be, because we're in the House to answer for the Government of Manitoba , not the P.C.

Association of Manitoba . However, if my honourable 3357

Monday, April 30, 1979 friend wishes that information, I'll gladly sell him membership in the Party, and ... MEMBERS: No, no. MR. LYON: Well , I'm being overruled by my caucus, Mr. Speaker , so I can 't make that offer . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Thank you , Mr. Speaker . Well , the First Min ister should be careful ; that 's the first time I've heard of him being overruled by his caucus . A MEMBER: It happens every day. MR.

COWAN: Further to the government's side , I'd like to ask the Minister of Education if the Minister can confirm that according to Page 25, Grant 0319 of the doc ument tabled under Order .. for Return No. 57, that the P.C.

Association, located at 23 Kennedy Street, received public moneys 1-' last year from the Progressive Conservative Government of Manitoba , for the purpose of creating private sector jobs under the Private Sector Youth Employment Program , and can he further indicate if any other political parties have received moneys under this provision ; and can he further indicate what specifically the job descriptions that were subsidized under this Program were? MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Education . MR. COSENS: Mr.

Speaker, to the Member for Churchill , I am not aware that there was anything barring political parties from employing young people in this particular Program . MR COWAN: Thank you , Mr. Speaker . Then I would ask the Minister of Labour , who I understand is currently responsible for this Program , to indicate how many grants have been allocated to the P.C. Association of Manitoba during this year's program , and if those grants are being used to subsidize election workers during the federal election . MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Speaker, I am not aware of any grants to the P.C. Association in the year 1979. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member of Churchill with a fourth question . MR. COWAN: Yes, thank you . To the Minister of Education , further to his previous question: Can he indicate if any other political parties received moneys under this program for the purpose of subsid izing job creation activities? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker , I'll take the question as notice, and check into that particular information . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill with a fifth question. MR. COWAN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker , I'm just trying to clear up the prev ious question to the Minister of Education. Can the Minister then indicate what the job descriptions were of the people who were subsid ized by pub lic mone ys for the purpose of putting forth the Progressive Conservative Association of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education . MR. COSENS: Once again, Mr. Speaker, I'd have to take that question as notice . I don 't remember the particular job description of the thousands of people who were employed under that plan .

I would suggest that they were perhaps clerical , but again I would like to check into it.and I'll provide that information to the member. MR. COWAN : Yes, thank you , Mr. Speaker. A final question to the Minister of Labour . Can the Minister then confirm that under this year's program , they will be accepting applications and that they will be offering subsidies to any political parties that apply to the program for the purposes 3358

... .. • Monday, April 30, 1979 of job creation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker , I can't confirm or deny it. I haven't reviewed any of those specific applications; it's the staff that reviews them. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wellington . MR. BRIAN CORRIN: Mr.

Speaker , my question is for the Minister responsible for Corrections: I would ask whether the Honourable Minister could confirm news reports of yesterday afternoon and evening, that inmates of a provincial institution who had been deployed to work on dike reinforcement within the boundaries of the City of Winnipeg had refused to continue thei r work until such times as they were transferred from their location, which was the Wildwood Golf and Country Club , to a residential situation . Could the Minister confirm that for the Assembly? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Health . HON.

L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker , I can 't confirm that . I can say that inmates from some provincial institutions , notably Headingley , are working as dike workers and flood fighters , and in 95 percent of the instances , we are receiving excellent co-operation and work from them. I'll have to check the spec ific raised by the Member for Wellington . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: Yes, I'd be interested in knowing if, in fact, that were the case , Mr. Speaker.

I'd be interested to know why the inmates in question were priorized for the purpose of dike work at a club of that nature, as opposed to residential circumstances . I would ask why we could not follow the ir wishes , and send them to, perhaps , more purposeful and more useful work in reinforcing dikes that would protect peoples ' houses in our city . MR. SHERMAN: Well , Mr.

Speaker , t he only thing I can say is that the diking program is organized and adm inistered by peop le who mak e the decisions and select the crews , and when you're dealing with inmates from a penal institut ion, I think it should be remembered that the administrator of the diking program gives the orders , i t's not the prisoners who give the orders . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways . MR. ENNS: Perhaps just a further clarification on that item.

No. 1: The question of where to dike , of course, is, as indicated by my colleague , comes under the administration, in this case, of the City of Winnipeg and the administra tive people that are responsible for that protection . But Sir , in a more general way, it does indicate the security and the safety that the City of Winnipeg residents enjoy, that it can be considered , and we have the time , to do such secondary and agree to extend that protection to such ancilldry areas, or non-essential areas, such as he mentions .

It's a pretty clear indication that all residential areas are being protected ; the city itself is fully protected; and then why not , if we have the time , and we have the voluntee rs, to go out and do some additional diking work of a secondary nature . MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the day. The Honourable Mem ber for St. Johns . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker , I would request further clarificat ion from the Minister of Education , who was respons ible for Private Secto r Yout h Employment Programs last year , whether it is accepted that a political party is doing anything which the Government of Manitoba considers as private sector • employment , and is the government prepared to encourage by grants from the taxpayers ' moneys fur ther activ ities of any kind by a political party? Does it fall within the cr iteria established by this -. government on the Private Sector Employment? MR. COSENS: Mr.

Speaker , I'm quite prepared to take that question as notice also, and check out and make sure that this met the criter ia. I'm sure that it was checked at the time , uut I will further check and report back to the Chamber. MR. CMERNIACK: Mr. Speaker , in view of the Minister 's assurance that he believes that it was 3359

Monday, April 30, 1979 checked out, then would he accept full responsibility for this having been done, or does he want to leave the question open as to whether or not it was an error due to lack of proper review or surveillance before it was granted? MR. COSENS: Once again, Mr . Speaker, without checking this over carefully , I'll take that particular question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, my question to the First Min ister .

Can the First Minister advise the House whether or not he, as First Minister, condones the providing of public funds to a political party under the guise of a Youth Job Creation Program? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . -~ . MR. LYONS: Mr. Speaker , this being the first that I have heard of the matter , I would have to !--' say in general hypothetical terms that it was not my impression that this was the purpose of the program.

The Honourable the Minister has taken the question as notice ; we'll check into it; and if it is found that this was the case , then I can assure my honOurable friend that it will be stopped . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker , may I request of the First Minister and of the Minister of Education , that when the report is ready, and I'm sure it will be quickly , that it be brought to this House and not ammatter of Press statements? MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker , we have a tendency to observe the proprieties of the House , reasonably well - we're not perfect , we're not any more perfect than my honourable friends - and my honourable friend seems to be preoccupied with the Youth Employment Program. I merely remind him that the Youth Employment Program of the NDP, when they were in government , was to appoint people directly to the payroll. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker , I wonder if the First Minister would agree that , when appointments are made to the Civil Service for anybody working for the Government of Manitoba , either as an Executive Assistant or any where within the Program , that that is straightforward and not under any subterfuge , as any other sort of subsidy to a political party? MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker , that has been the case for the last eighteen months , it wasn 't before . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker , now on a matter of privilege , may I say that the Honourable First Minister is very quick to make accusations without backing them up.

He keeps throwing suggestions that he's going to do it, and doesn't do it , and I think it ill-behooves his office and his leadership of that political party to make that kind of reference without being prepared to support with proper statements and proper action on his part . MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker , I can think of no Member of the House , who is less capable of speaking about the privileges of this House , than the Member for St. Johns. MR. CMERNIACK: On the matter of privilege , I knew that we would end up with that kind of response from the First Minister .

We can count on his backing away from the problem by making that kind of insulting re, and I accept it from the person who delivered it in that fashion . mark MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Rupertsland . MR. HARVEY BOSTROM : Thank you , Mr. Speaker . On the same issue and to the First Minister , can the First Minister assure this House that whatever funds that have been granted to the Progressive Conservative Party by the Government of Manitoba , taxpayers ' funds , that these funds will will be returned to the Government of Manitoba if it is found that this should not have been done?

I believe that he has already said that this should not have been done . 3360

- • .. .. Monday, April 30, 1979 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I said that we were looking into the matter, and as soon as we get notice of the matter we'll advise the Honourable Member, and the Members of the Official Opposition as to what the status of it is. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, last week the Honourable the Member for Transcona asked me whether 19 an esthetists at the Health Sciences Centre would be opting out of Medicare as of May 1st.

I'm pleased to report to him and the House today, that my information up to the moment is that they are not opting out . They have agreed to a contract arrangement that keeps them in. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Education. Can the Minister indicate what system of evaluation was used to assure that the program was being used as it was determined to be used in the beginn ing?

Can he indicate if the program was evaluated and can he indicate what form of evaluation was used to make sure that the moneys were going where they were intended to go, and being used for the purposes that they were intended to be used for? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, the application forms that were filled out by job applicants provided the information on the particular job , they were signed by the employers. That particular signature implied on the part of the employer that a new job was, in fact, being created.

In many of the cases we were able to check these out. Of course, again , when you are considering the thousands of jobs that were created by this program, there may have been some that were not checked out . At this time, I cannot give him the exact figure on how many of these particular situations were checked . MR. COWAN: Yes, thank you , Mr. Speaker. Then I would ask the Minister if he could undertake to provide that information as to the exact number of applications that underwent some form of evaluation, and the exact number that did not . I wonder if he'd undertake to do that for House and report back. MR.

COSENS: Mr. Speaker, I will certainly undertake to provide that information as well as the other information that has been requested . MR. SPEAKER: The Member for Churchill with a final Supplementary . Mr. Cowan: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd ask the Minister then if he would undertake to table a sample Application Form and also if he would undertake to table his government's Evaluation Report of the entire Private Sector Program for the first year? MR. COSENS: Mr.

Speaker , I did provide an Application Form I think to every Member of this House a year ago, and I believe as little as two months ago , I provided an extra form to the Member for Brandon East. However, I will endeavour to get another form for the Member for Churchill. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill with a fourth question . ., MR. COWAN: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Well, pursuant to my previous question, would the Minister be prepared to table the specific Progressive Conservative Application or any and all Progressive Conservative Applications for moneys under this fund; and would the Minister also be prepared to table specifically the evaluation done on the Progressive Conservative Job Creation Program last year; and would he be prepared to table - which he hasn 't answered yet - would he be prepared to table the general evaluation of the program that he indicates has been done by his government? MR. COSENS: Certainly , Mr.

Speaker, I'll be prepared to table any information pertaining to this 3361

Monday, April 30, 1979 particular question . MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Honourable Minister of Health. -(Interjection)- Yes, if the First Minister has completed his remarks , Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Honourable Minister of Health.

I would ask whether the Honourable Minister could apprise the House of the particulars of the contract between the Anesthetists Association at the Health Sciences Centre and the Health Sciences Centre Board or it may be the case between the anesthestists and the Province of Manitoba . Could he advise us of the nature of the contractual agreement? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health . MR. SHERMAN: Not precisely at the juncture , Mr. Speaker , althoug h I probably can do that later this week.

But at issue was the shift , particularly from midnight to 8:00 a.m., on whic h anesthestis ts, who of course provide a service that is required on a 24 hour basis , did not have the volume of patient care to justify the job that they do or to provide them with what they construed to be suff icient income under the fee schedule. So adjustments have always been made between the Health Sciences Centre and the anesthestists, particularly for Obstetrics and Gynaecology , and the present settlement is that kind of an adjustment. MR. CORRIN: As a matter of interest , Mr.

Speaker , and it is no longe r hypothet ical , very much a question to the point today , would the Honourable Minister be able to tell us whether or not he now would reconsider the fee for service situation regarding anesthestists at such vital health centres as the Health Sciences Complex and would he now be able to indicate whether or not he believes that such medical specialists should be put on special contracts serving the Boards of such centres? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The question posed by the Honourable Member for Wellington , in my opinion, appears to be somewhat hypothetical.

If he cares to rephrase his question ... MR. CORRIN: Well, Mr. Speaker, with respect, on a point of order I don 't understand how it can be construed by you to be hypothetical in as much as the matter is quite topical. We've been confronting this particular situation for some number of days , as you are aware of course, and as the Honourable Minister has indicated there has been a contractual arrangement arrived at and now we're trying to ascertain for the members of the House and the House's understanding the nature of the specific terms and conditions of the contracts in question .

And so what I have simply asked the Minister is whether or not in light of the fact that there is now a contractual arrangement in existence , whether or not he app roves of such contractual arrangements and whether he considers these superior or more beneficial in terms of the public interest and public policy then the fee for service system usually ascribed to in this regard. Mr. Speaker, I beg to differ . As I said , I don 't understand how that is hypothetical and I would ask that you reconsider your ruling in that respect. MR. SPEAKER: Order please .

I will point to the Honourable Member that I only made a suggestion to him . I understood that he was asking questions on something that might have occurred and did not occur . The Honourable Minister of Health . MR. SHERMAN: No, Mr. Speaker , it doesn 't change my opinion. If we were in an insoluble situation it might change my opin ion, but the situation was not insoluble . A contract arrangement of this kind is not unique or unusual. There has been one for some time and they frequently occur at major referral facilities such as the Health Sciences Centre.

The anesthestists in Manitoba were , in their view at least and I think that it had some legitimacy, underpaid in competitive standards in comparison with their counterparts across the country . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for land use planning in the Province, I believe that's the Minister of Consumer Affairs. I would like to ask if the City of Winnipeg required approval from the Province of Manitoba to empty storm drainage from the Transcona Storm Sewer System into the floodway? 3362 .. -· _ ..

Monday, April 30, 1979 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Transportation . MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker , the City of Transcona at that time did in fact require authorization from the provincial authorities , from the Water Resources Branch , to use the floodway for that purpose .

At that time the Water Resources people clearly indicated to the engineers and the authorit ies in the City of Transcona that , yes, they could use the facilit y for that purpose, emptying the storm sewer into the floodway, but that of course during the times that the floodway would be in operation the storm sewers would be inoperable in terms of gravity flow and that gates had to be installed and standby pumping systems had to be installed. That advice that was given to the City of Transcona in late 1969, I believe , when the installations were in effect installed .

To date unfortunately the City of Transcona ignored that advice , had not installed the pumps and have just last week requested assistance in providing for emergency pumps so that the storm sewers can be operable . I can inform the honourable member that the Emergency Measures Organization is airfreighting for 4 pumping units in from Montreal. They will be delivered to the City of Transcona some time • shortly after midnight tonight for installation .

I am further informed that the delivery date is suitable to city authorities to help alleviate the situation that Transcona residents were facing in the danger of sewer backups in that area . • MR. PARASIUK: I would like to thank the Minister for his answer. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker , I move , seconded by the Minister of Highways that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty .

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Education and the Honourable Member for Emerson in the Chair for Economic Development. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Albert Driedger (Emerson): Committee come to order. I refer members of the committee to Page 24, Economic Development, Resolution 36: 1.(b)(1)-pass - the Member for Transcona . MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Yes, Mr.

Chairperson, in light of the revelations in the House this morning , I can 't avoid this question . Can the Minister assure us that the P.C. Association in Manitoba will not be eligible for incentives from the Province of Manitoba under its Private Sector Incentives Program, seeing as how it was eliglible for provincial assistance under the government's Private Sector Employment Program? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): The P.C.

Party is not a manufacturer , nor do they develop manufacturing processing industries . -(Interjection)- Well , that's the type of comment we usually expect from that member . MR. PARASIUK: I just haven't received the assurance yet. Can I infer from the Minister's comment that P.C. Association of Manitoba isn't a manufacturer, isn't in a sense a private profit-making entity ? Can I infer from that, that it will not be eligible for Private Sector Incentives rants from the province of Manitoba , at least under his department? MR.

JOHNSTON: The Rural Small Enterprise Incentive Program is exactly that, rural small enterprise , and it is to support new manufacturing industries or expand present manufacturing industries . I don't see how the Progressive Conservative Party , or any other party would qualify . 3363

Monday, April 30, 1979 MR. PARASIUK: Yes, I'd like to thank the Minister for his clear , forthright answer on that, and I hope that he would communicate that information to his colleague , the Minister of Education , who is administering the Private Sector Employment Program that his deaartment used to administer in the past. Apparently the guide lines for that program seem to have changed somewhat, in the transfer of responsibility from this department to the Department of Education . So I hope he would pass that information on to his colleague , the Minister of Education.

I would like to ask the Minister one specific question , regarding 1.(bX1) that - and perhaps it was asked last week - but you know when you run back and forth between the committees, sometimes you miss some of the questions. There 's an increase of $20,000, specifically what's that for? MR. JOHNSTON: The total increase of $20,000 is due to the effect of the provision for general sala ry increase in shortfall of annual increments, provision of salary for executive assistant to the Minister. The salary is the first step of an Executive Assistant I. MR.

PARASIUK: Is there an extra staff then , on the Minister 's executive payroll then? MR. JOHNSTON: I present ly do not have an executive assistant. MR. PARASIUK: So that money is being put in place so that in this fiscal year you can hire an executive assistant , is that correct? MR. JOHNSTON: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: (bX1)-pass - the Member for Transcona . MR. PARASIUK: Just for clarification, Mr. Chairperson, that means that the Minister says he doesn 't have an executive assistant.

Is that in either capacity , that as Minister responsible for the Man itoba Housing and Renewal Corporation and Minister of Economic Developm ent? Under this item Economic Development, we have both appropriations , that for the Department of Economic Development and that for the Man itoba Housing and Renewal Corporation . MR. JOHNSTON: I presen tly don 't have an executive assistant for Housing or for Economic Development. If I have one or if I attain an executive assistant, he will handle both . The Executive Assistant is my executive assistant ; he's not Housing or Economic Development . MR.

PARASIUK: I thank the Minister for that answer and I have no further questions on 1.(bX1). MR. CHAIRMAN: (bX1)-pass; (bX2)-pass; (b)-pass; (cX1)-pass ; (cX2)-pass; (c)-pass; -(Interjection)- Could the Member for Transcona indicate which item he wants to speak to? MR. PARASIUK : I want to speak on 1.(c)Administration . MR. CHAIRMAN : 1.(cX1) - the Honourable Member for Transcona . MR. PARASIU K: Thank you .

In the material handed out last week by the department , there seemed to be a fairly large reduction in Administration from 46 to 19 if I'm reading it correctly , and there was an abolishing of 6 positions in Administration and a transferring out of 22 people , which left 19 people in the staff man years under Administration , and yet, when I look at the reduction , there has just been a minor reduct ion of $8,000 .00. Can the Minister indicate why there is this big apparent reduction in staff man years in Administration, and yet a very trivial reduction in money spent? MR.

JOHNSTON: The Administrative and Correspondence secretaries were at one time all on this appropriation . The secretaries that were in this appropriation before have been moved under the item that they are presently serving . So the reduction in the staff is the secretaries; their salaries have been moved to be taken in to, say, the Transportat ion, or Technology , or Small Business , whatever part of the organization that they are serving . And the $8,000 difference , basically , the reason for the $8,000 drop is the increase of salaries , approximately , that took place with all the Civil Service .

So the total numbe r that went out were 21 staff man years were redeployed to other 3364 .. .. _,

.. .. Monday, April 30, 1979 branches. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona . MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairperson , my problem with that answer- and perhaps it's just my problem - is that there were 22 staff man years transferred out , which is a very significant number , and it ooesn't indicate where in the department they were transferred out. I looked at the Reconciliation Statement, which is on Page 23, and I really couldn't gather much from that in terms of transferring out to other departments; because the implication of that heading "Transferred Out", is that those were transferred out of the department .

And it gives the impression that the number of staff man years , say for the Executive Section, was reduced from 77 to 48, and that was largely because of the transferring out from the department of 22 staff man years . MR. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Chairman, I can read these 13.1, to all out : The transfer out was ADO 22, Clerk IV, G. Stewart , Small Enterprise Development; ADO 38, AY3, L. Gregash, 10.8 staff man years , to the EDG Administration Program , Development and Technical Services; ADO 48, Mr. I. Martin, 11 .3, to Small Enterprise Development ; ADO 49, AY3, C.

Cheyne, 10.9 staff man years, to Administrative Program Development ; ADO 26, AY3, D. Watters to 10.7 staff man years , Marketing Distribution; EPO 05, AY4, E. Weiss, to Industrial Design; ADO 23 CT3, C. Bardal , to S ED, Small Enterprise Development Program ; ADO 32 CT3, S. Walton , 11.1 to Small Enterprise Development program; ADO 35, CT2, L. Chomynec, 9.3 to Labour and Manpower ; ADO 46, AY3, E. Hardinge , 11.3 to Small Enterprise Development Program ; ADO 29, CT3, N. Malco , 9.3 staff man years to Business Development; ADO 42, AY4, S. Nelson, 12.0 to Business Development; ADO 30, AY2, L.

Henderson , 9.6 staff man years to Transportation ; ADO 37, AY3 . . . MR. PARASIUK: I don 't think the Minister has to read that list out. I understand what has taken place with respect to the transferr ing out. I just inferred from the statement transferred out, transferred in, that that was out or in of the department , and this is within the department and transferring out of sections . MR. PARASIUK: I'd like to ask if in fact the central accounting payroll personnel; central registry , reference library and support services, is that all housed in one

part icular section, physically , within the department now? MR. JOHNSTON: Yes it is. MR. PARASIUK: Yes, where is that? Is that in the Lakeview Centre? MR. JOHNSTON: Yes. The staff is all in the Lakeview Centre . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to deal with, under this

section which is Research, the question of metricat ion in the province , and in

part icular in the manufacturing sector and the construction sector, etc. , etc . I assume that some work is being done and that the government has a commitment , either one that they are voluntarily rising to, or else one that has been imposed upon them by the actions of the Federal government. Now , the Minister himself , in the House , continually says that to us, but I believe it is equally correct , Mr. Chairman , to say that the private sector itself has been calling for metric conversion and asking for metric conversion .

I want to mention to him that when our administrat ion was in power that we had a number of plans and were attempting to meet some of the limits of the Federal government . For example, I asked him a question once about housing and public works and he answered me in regard to MHRC , but he did not comment on the Government Services aspect , wherein we had issued a directive that , I believe in 1979, any buildings to be built in 1979 were to be designed on the metric scale and so on. And there are also Federal funds available that I assume would either come through him or would be available to other department s.

I recall discuss ing with one of my top officials the fact that there was some $40,000 or $50,000 available for sort of a public education promotion or project , and we were look ing into this. I also noticed in the Tribune on the weekend an ad under the Civil Service Commission of Manitoba for a Metrication Engineer , Department of Highways and Transportation presumably charged with implementing the metric system . There 's also been concern expressed by a Mr. West , Dick West, Chairman of the Intergovernmental Design and Construction Committee , which is organizing metr ic conversion within 3365

Monday, April 30, 1979 the Federal government. He said that higher prices will soon be charged for building materials manufactured in the inch-pound system when Canada converts to the metric system . Also quotes an official of the Department of Government Services, who says, of our government services , that we're far behind other provinces in plans for metric conversion . I then refer to a report by a Mr. Lowell Campbell , who is the chairman of the Executive Steering Committee on Metric Conversion for the city of Winnipeg .

He says that the province is acting like a metric ostrich and while other provinces are rapidly converting, we're clinging tenaciously to the old Imperial units . He mentions that the building code hasn't been converted and so on and so on, and he says that there's going to be a Federal-provincial collision and that the victims will be Manitoba consumers, would-be homeowners and businesses . Manitoba producers of products , services and employment will be left out of the national economy, and Manitobans will pay premium prices for non-metric products .

And the final comment here , to give the Minister a chance to answer , he says it's difficult to understand how the provincial Cabinet, and of course they are first and foremost businessmen or pride themselves of being businessmen, he finds it hard to understand how the Cabinet can take so little interest in the matter , given that the provincial economy must remain in step with the national economy in metric conversion to compete . It would appear the government has chosen to ignore its inherent obligation and interest in promoting the Manitoba economy .

Well, of course, when it comes to that, the number one promoter of Manitoba business , I assume , is the Minister of Economic Development and that the Premier r is beside him and the Cabinet is closely following in step . They 're attempting to keep Manitoba competitive . They think they can do this by keeping lower wages and lower minimum wages and many other policies which I don't accept, but here we have a clearly-drawn policy. It's been articulated for a number of years. Nothing new .

It's inevitable, where I heard just on the radio the other day that we're not going to be talking about McDonald 's quarter pounders any more, it's going to be the 200 gram burger and the 150 gram burger , we'll all have to find out what that is. And we're learning about kilometers and kilograms and Centigrade and hectares and tonnes instead of tons and so on and so on. It's inevitable and it's in the nature of things now. It's being promoted. It can't be stopped.

The question is, is Manitoba going to fall in step or are we going to fight some ridiculous rear guard action and be the only province, in terms Of the Minister's responsibilities , not in line? So I would ask the Minister if he'd be kind enough to explain his apparent footdragging in this regard. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourab le Minister. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman , this actually comes under technology 2.(c), but I would say to the member that he brings up several pnts. He mentions nearly all different departments.

The Minister of Labour is responsible for build ing codes, he mentioned the engineering staff that was required, which hasn't been advertised by this department. Our technology branch chairs the standards and metrification committee to ensure the co-ordination between departments. This department chairs that , then there are representation from all departments on that particular committee.

The mem·ber refers to comments that I made , and I have made the comment several times, that it is a concern to myself as the Minister of Economic Development , that the dates which are very very hard and fast could cause inconvenience to Manitobans than even higher prices. And unless that changes, that still remains my opinion . MR. DOERN: I say to the Minister that the cost cannot be avoided.

And that if the Minister feels that by putting off the judgment day, he's Achieving something , I say that he isn't ; that he will have to, I think , encourage Manitoba businessmen and encourage his colleagues to forward metric conversion , and that if it's going to cost money to convert now , it's going to cost the same or more money later on and if Manitoba manufacturers find themselves with two sets of inventory for a period of time, that canno t be avoided . It's simply going to be a cost of doing business.

I look at a map of the world - I know the Minister pointed out that our big market is in the United States but I believe that the United States is also in the process of conversion - I look at a map here of the world and it doesn 't have the countries on it - it just has shadings - but from the map it looks like there 's one country in Africa and one country in Asia that isn't metric , other than the United States, which would seem to indicate that if you want to do any trading or any exporting in particular , you're going to have to get in step.

We know that the English went through a lot of agony , being very conservative in some ways and also being, I guess in some ways, the originator of our system of measurement , the metric system isn't new. It goes back I don 't know how many centuries . The United States has been talking about metric conversion and I believe has been acting on it. It was recommended back in '7 by their National Bureau of Standards that they change to the 3366 . ~-

Monday, April 30, 1979 international metric system through a co-ordinated national program over a period of ten years, so I don't know if that is entirely in place or not.

But I want to deal with this one point because I think the Minister, who is a defender of free enterprise, which is fine, sees himself as the champion of free enterprise, has to recognize that many organizations have called for metrication in the country, a whole score; for instance the Canadian Teachers' Federation has called for it, the Canadian Pharmaceutical Association - I'm sure that's not a government body - back in 1968, the Chemical Institute of Canada, the Canadian Council of Professional Engineers, the Engineering Institute of Canada, the Canadian Construction Association, which I feel is partly the responsibility of the Minister, namely that construction and manufacturing for construct ion is part of his responsibility; in 1969, now ten years ago, called upon the government, in collaboration with the construction industry, to develop a

schedule for conversion of construction in Canada to metric practice. To the best of my knowledge, that has been carried out, step by step, in joint co-operation. The Canadian Chamber of Commerce, which must be dear to the Minister's heart, recommended in 1968 that the Government of Canada actively pursue a program to adopt the metric standard of measurement; and the Canadian Government brought in a White Paper in 1970 which received unanimous consent, obviously supported by members of the Conservative Party, and so on and so on. There's been committees established; there's been all sorts of advances made.

So I don't think that it's correct to say that this is just a whim of the federal government, and in particular, of the Liberal Party in Ottawa. There has been widespread support, and support from the private sector. There has also been, of course, steps taken by the Manitoba Government in terms of speed limits, and surveying, and real estate, and vehicle weights, and so on and so on - a whole score of things done by the Province. And the Province is responsible for overseeing this kind of activity .

Now, the Minister is also responsible for MHRC, and I say in passing that they announced, according to my information here, that as of May, 1979, no funding will be approved for housing designed in Imperial units; and I think the Minister in the House that he was, of course, adhering to that . But there's no metric building code in Manitoba , and according to this report, which I am reading from, which comes from the City of Winnipeg, on metric conversion, they say that the builder and the would-be home owners will be the victims of the federal-provincial collision.

And then, "The author of the problem is clearly the Government of Manitoba, who has failed to act in concert with the other provinces in the adoption of a metric building code in late 1977 or early 1978. Of significant importance also is the fact that , as other provinces complete their conversion schedule, and Manitoba is the only province that has not done so, there will grow a cost premium for non-metric materials.'' And you know, Mr. Chairman, when I read this, it sounds sort of like an NDP document.

It sounds like it was put together by somebody in the Opposition intent on slamming the government; but it wasn't. This is a report from a Civil Servant, a responsible individual, to the City of Winnipeg, to the various committee members, all of them senior Civil Servants of the City. And then the famous conclusion that Manitoba seems to be the province of the metric ostrich.

And then, I just read in conclusion, these two paragraphs , "I am advised", says this gentleman, "that a similar situation existed in Ontario in 1977, and that the City of Toronto successfully demanded that the Government of Ontario step forward and fulfil it's obligation to Ontario consumers and business. It would appear that similar action by the City of Winnipeg is required at this time in Manitoba .

It should be noted that the process of national metrication is being promoted and implemented primarily by the private sector, and government inaction " - which is what we're talking about - "can only impair, complicate and frustrate the process . Government support is what is required at all levels in Canada ." So, I'm saying again to the Minister, is he going to be in step, is he going to lead, or is he going to lag? What is his policy going to be? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, this department, under the Technology

Section of it, is there to provide information to industry if they request it, regarding the change into metrification, or provide hopefully any research for them that they may have to do. The member keeps bringing it up under these Estimates because I made the statement that I made, that I do not believe that firm dates should be held to, to the point where they could be costly to Manitoba . He's quite right that under MHRC we are partners with CMHC , and if the CMHC will not accept any plans or specifications that aren't in metric, that's what the construction industry will have to quote .

And there has never, at any time, been any rule or regulation that I know of, and the Minister of Municipal and Urban 3367

Monday, April 30, 1979 Affairs, and the Attorney-General , has made it very clear that plans and specifications will be received in metric in this province , and they never have been turned down . So it boils down to, Mr. Chairman, that the honourable member starts to talk about metrification from all different sides; the announcement in the paper over the weekend that we are going to have our clothing changed from Size 36, or 42, to whatever it may be in metrification by a specific date. Again, there 's nothing to stop the Manitoba manufacturers from changing , or selling to any place in the world .

What the member is basically talking about , and should be talking about to the government services of the Department of Labour , but mainly to government services - and the government generally , if he wants to - is that the government has not passed legislation the same as CMHC saying that we will not accept any plans and speci fications on governmen t contracts , or purchasing , unless it is in metric . That's basically what the Province of Manitoba has not don e as yet , but the Province of Manitoba has not turned down any plans or spec ifications that have come in in metric .

As a matter of fact , while we're partners of CMHC , we would not be able to, as far as housing is concerned . As far as the construction that we tender , i f somebody wants to quote it in metric , they're not turned down , as far as I know , in government services . MR. DOERN: The Minister , then , is not going to encourage conversion , and he's not goin g to discourage the use of Imperial units . MR. JOHNSTON: I don't recall any law in this province , while we were using feet and inches , that you couldn't use metric .

You are basically saying that , now that the federal government has said that we are converting to metric, that that's it. And as a matter of fact , it's a federal government decision; there is nothing to stop any manufacturer in Manitoba from converting to metric if the market he is supplying demands that. There is nothing to stop anybody from quoting the Province of Manitoba in metric . MR. DOERN: Does the Minister not recognize that , as the metric conversion takes place , that it will be more complicated than just a case of translating metric into imperial , and then sending forth certain materials .

When you start getting into different sizes of modules and different sizes of materials, it's not always easy to say, add so many feet of lumber . If you 're talking about a metre of lumber and you substitute 39 inches of material , it's not sometimes that easy. There may be modules that are set differently; the re may be screws or bolts that are on a totally different system , and so on, and it's not only a case of having a little conversion kit and then deciding how you bid with your imperial machinery into a metric system . You may have to do a complete conversion. MR. JOHNSTON : That 's possible .

They may have to . MR. JOHNSTON: But the peop le in the carpet business that make rugs at the present time , 9 by 12, and have a machinery to do so, it would cost them about $300 ,000 to change it to metric, and most of the rooms in this province are in feet and inches. You buy a 9 by 12 rug , you would have to buy it about 13.2 or something in metric cut it off in waste . So, at the present time , there are things happening within the metric system that are complicated. That may be not the best example, but they are complicated . I have seen plants in Manitoba that are just changing their sizes to read metric .

They have two labels on them, but the Province of Manitoba has never turned down any metric specifications or quotations. MR. DOERN: I would also ask the Minister whether the government has taken any deliberate backward steps . For example, I don 't know if he can answer this, but in Public Works , now Government Services, it was called for by 1979, a design of construction plans in metric - anything to be tendered in '79, was to be designed in metric . That was a ministerial directive . I wonder whether the Minister is aware of that being rescinded . MR.

JOHNSTON: Well , I can only make a request to the member , to take it up with the Minister of Government Services as to where that stands at the present time . MR. DOERN: My final question here, Mr. Chairman , is, there are federal moneys available for metric conversion . The federal government, I believe , has allocated so many dollars for specific programs - I'm not talking about cash in particular . Has the Minister or the government accessed any of those federal moneys for the promotion ; public information programs ; moneys available to manufacturers, etc .

Have we, in the 18 months that your government has been in office , accessed 3368 , . " ....

,. Monday, April 30, 1979 any moneys directly for this purpose? MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, I'm aware of what the member is talking about . I believe he's talking about the moneys that would be provided by the federal government to set up a metric information centre , and the present government has not taken up that offer as yet. MR. DOERN: Well, is the Minister the sort of chairman , or is his department not responsible for co-ordinating metric conversion in the government? MR. JOHNSTON: I just didn 't catch the question . MR.

DOERN: Is it not true that your department has the prime responsibility , do they not have the prime responsibility for metric conversion and co-ordination in the government? MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, the chairman of the committee of - the Metric Chairman of the Province of Manitoba is in my department . He chairs the committee, which is representative from all sections of the different departments of government . MR. DOERN: I would urge the Minister then, to access all moneys available by the federal government for this program, whether he is enthusiastic or not.

I think he would agree that if the Government of Canada is providing money to all provinces for public awareness and information , and for either government purposes or for private manufacturing purposes , then we should take our share and make use of it, and if there 's $50,000 lying around for one of those programs, there must be money available for other programs , and I would urge the Minister to get his hands on those moneys and to use them . MR. CMAIRMAN: The Member for Burrows . MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr.

Chairman , just to follow up on the quest ion asked by my colleague , the Member for Elmwood , and which the Min ister confirmed that a staff person from his department chairs the Metric Conversion Commi ttee of government. Well, that being the case, Mr.

Chairman, then I don 't think that the Minister can just simply "pass the buck " as he appeared to have a while ago , when my colleague , the Member for Elmwood asked some quest ions related to metric conversion , and which I guess , in some way, fell with in the jurisdic tion of another department , to simply say, " Well , you 'll have to talk to the Ministe r of Labour , you have to talk to the Minister of whatever other department, Government Services , etc.

" Because it is his department, his responsibil ity to co-ordina te the metr ic conversion and , therefore , whatever that requires to be done , it must be done in harmony , in uniso n. If it's his responsibility to co-ordinate the metric conversion , he can 't afford to simply let the school system do its own thing , in terms of convert ing the instructional programs in arithmetic , and mathematics based Or related courses to metric, and the sciences and to allow Labour to do its own th ing, and Health its own thing and so forth , and Government Services and Public Works , etc.

So, therefore , the Minister must assume a more active role in familiarizing himself - his department must assume a more active role in familiarizing itself with the whole process of metric conversion , what is transpiring and to assure the people of Manitoba that the conversion process in all departments, in all government departments and in the private sector, is proceeding in some orderly , unified fashion .

Now , this is one branch of the Minister 's department , which shows a fairly substantial increase in terms of salaries , abou t a 14 percent increase from $324 ,000 to $364 ,000 and it would appear from the brief description of this branch , that it does econom ic and operational research, including that . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order , order please. We are on (c)(1). (c)(1)-pass ; (c)(2)-pass ; (c)-pass; (d)

(1) MR. DOERN: Wait a minute , Mr. Chairman , sorry . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Is it not the case that my colleague is following up on this general discussion? Are we on . .. A MEMBER: We're on (

d) now. 3369

Monday, April 30, 1979 MR. DOERN: We're on (d)? MR. CMAIRMAN: (d)(1). ,..R. DOERN: Okay. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Burrows. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, with respect to (d), perhaps the Minister could explain the rationale for the 14 percent increase or thereabouts, from $324,000 to $364 ,000, which is $40,000.00. It's well over 13 percent anyway . And as I had indicated previously , this is the branch that is described as doing economic and operational research, including evaluation and analytical services for management. I would take it that it's private sector management that is referred to.

Perhaps the Minister can explain that , because otherwise it wouldn 't make sense if one con tin ues reading the sentence . The rest of it, market research and economic analysis services to the department, that 's quite clear . But the first

part isn't. In other words, evaluation and analytic services, economic and operational research for whom? If the Minister could answer that. Also , I had asked the Minister previously when we were under Executive about cap ital inflow and outflow from the province and into the province . The Minister will recall that his predecessor had somehow estimated that prior to the Minister' s party forming the government that the capital outflow from the province was somewhere in the order of $1 billion .

So my question is, is this the branch of his department that does that type of measuremen t, and if the Minister's predecessor was able to calculate the capital outflow , I presume that applying the same formula in reverse should give us a reading on the capital inflow. So therefore I'd be interested in knowing , Mr. Chairman , what the capital inflow has been into the province ; how much capital has this government been able to attract to the prOvince which previously did not exist here?

From investors who came rushing forth to invest in the province of Manitoba immediately after October 11th when they read in the press and heard on the radio and TV that a Conservative Party government was elected.

So as I've said, if it was possible to measure, and I would like to think that the Minister had done an accurate measurement of capital outflow, surely this Minister should be able to measure the capital inflow and tell the people of Manitoba, " Yes, our economic and operations research branch has done a study and we find that this government has attracted x hundred of millions or billions of dollars back to the province of Manitoba.

" And then I would also like the Minister to describe some of the research projects that economic and operational research projects, market research, economic analysis services, that this branch had completed during the last fiscal year , that it's presently being involved in and that it's planning for the future . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. JOHNSTON: On (d), that provides economic and operational research, that economic and operational research is work that is done for the department managers .

In other words , if a department manager is working on something and he has somebody come to him and wants some research done as to whether it's valid or not, they provide operation and economic research to the managers who are working with the companies who are interested in the province of Manitoba , including an evaluation of analytic services of the management. They also do analysis of what the managenent is working on, and the analysis of the programs that they are working on , to make sure that they're a proper type of program .

Market research and economic analysis services to the department really comes down to the same thing. It's a market research and economic analysis service to the department; that throughout the whole department you have people who are continually referring to this research department for assistance while they are working with people who are interested in the province . And as far as the projects are concerned, I think they 're probably in - '78-7 9 I have two pages of them here - we had 90 projects in '77-78; '78-79 we had 106.

Here 's some examples we have here at the present time operations and research, water shell caissons, client Jim Douglas , technology branch . This study identified for each prai rie province separately the most common diameters , length ' wall thicknesses , materials and coat ings for water well casings . The external client was considering the expansion and needed information in forming inventory and materials , handling investment decision . This study was completed in June , '78. The expansion went ahead and is successful.

In 1978, 011 or 074 preformed metal , client Ken Black , former marketing distribution and design branch . Two studies were done , the first in June and the second in December. The first developed 3370 . ,..

'· Monday, April 30, 1979 a catalogue of the most common types of perforating equipment and the specification range of that output. Second development , a detailed catalogue of external clients product specifications. The external client is financing a major long-term contract which will mean an expansion of employment. Those are the types of projects and work that this research group does to assist the men in our department who are working with industry. MR. CHAIRMAN: (d)(1)-pass. The Member for Burrows . MR.

HANUSCHAK: When the Minister was in the process of explaining the function of this particular branch, I was of the impression that this is economic and operational research advice and assistance , market research for the department, but from the Minister's reading the types of projects or examples of types of projects being undertaken , this really is a form of welfare for the private sector . Not unless the private sector is being billed for this type of advice . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. JOHNSTON: In '77-78 there were 49 economic research works done .

In '77 -78 there was a total of 47, and those were specific analytical research programs. To give you an example, the tariff impact methodology, client R. M. Armstrong, analist S. Sing, description the development of the methodology which would provide a framework of analysis, the potential impact on Manitoba manufacturing output and employment on tariff reductions recently finalized under the Tokyo round of material - multilateral trade negotiations uses.

The analysis would provide a feeling of likelihood in terms of potential impacts which would place the department in a better position to develop policies and programs to obtain the maximum benefit from the changing economic environment and to facilitate the inevitable adjustment process. 2. The analysis would provide a valuable input to the departgent to negotiate with the Federal government best adjustment assistance program for the Manitoba industry .

And I might say that in 1979 we have workirig on fewer reviews, legislative reviews, community surveys, Manitoba community reports, community com mercial, Manitoba training costs, methodology, the economy, manufacturing scenario, the hog indu stry, GAP Manitoba - these are all being worked on by that Department of Economic and Operations Research . MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, are some of the clients of the people working in this shop from the private sector? MR. JOHNSTON: Some of the clients what? MR.

HANUSCHAK: Are some of the clients of the Economic and Operations Research Branch of the Minister's department from the private sector. MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, if you're asking , do we request research from outside researchers , or companies at times, yes. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, that was not my intent. The client , I take it, is the one who requests the Economic Research service, or Market Research service; so are some of the users - those requesting this type of assistance that this branch is supposed to have the capacity to , offer - from the private sector? MR. JOHNSTON: Yes. MR.

HANUSCHAK: Now, so then my question is - it's not really a question : So this too is a welfare program for the private sector . -(Interjection)- Not unless the Minister bills the clients for the services offered . MR. JOHNSTON: To call it a welfare program - I guess it has been for the last eight years. This • is something this department has been doing for probably 20 years, is doing research for industry and helping people in any way, shape or form to increase the economy of the Province of Manitoba. And it's a particular job of government to be there to help industry .

There are businesses who don't have this type of research , and I can assure you that the companies that come to us, and we analyze the research that they want done; it is analyzed on the basis of the benefit it'll be to the Province of Manitoba . And we have been doing that in the Province of Manitoba for many years. In fact, I think I could go back more than eight years, or I think I could go back more than 15 3371

Monday, April 30, 1979 years, where I can say that the department in Manitoba has been known across Canada as one which is very capable of doing work with companies to decide if they can come here. If the honourable member doesn 't want that done , and he wants to call it a welfare program , it's entirely up to him, but that's a service of government. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, I'm only surprised to hear this Min ister , one of the freedom-fighters, one of the staunchest defenders of the private enterprise system , and of the rugged individualists who make it up, hide behind a Socialist veil ; to say that this is a program that's been in existence for eight years , or more . MR. JOHNSTON: Pardon me, 15 or so years. MR. HANUSCHAK: Fifteen years, which, for their reasons, the Socialist Party did not . . . A MEMBER: Duff Roblin was a Red Tory. MR. HANUSCHAK: Founded by the Red Tory, Duff Roblin.

And , you know , the defender of the rugged individualists who want to stand on their own twO feet , and slug it out on their own, to stand there and hand out welfare ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . Gentlemen , in accordance with the Rule 19(2), the hour of 4:30 p.m. having arrived , I am interrupt ing the proceedings of the committee for Private Members ' Hour, and will return at 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Abe Kovnats (Radisson): I would draw the honourable members to Page 32 of the Main Estimates, the Department of Education, Resolution No. 43, Item (

m) Student Aid

(1) Salaries-pass - the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre . MR. J. R. (Bud) BOYCE: Mr. Chairman , we have a letter dated April 26, 1979 from the University of Manitoba Students ' Union , add ressed to all members of the Manitoba Legislative Assembly and I would like to read this letter into the record at this time . The letter is signed by one Joey Cyr, Vice-President of the Univers ity of Manitoba Students ' Union . " The University of Manitoba Students ' Union recently completed a student aid survey . The survey indicates that the student aid system is falling short of achieving its aims .

The system is designed to provide supplementary assistance so that students are not denied access to post -secondary education on the basis of wealth . However , the survey results indicate that the system is not effectively insuring the accessibility of post-secondary education . "The University of Manitoba Stu dents ' Union would like to recommend several changes in the system arising out of the survey. We would recommend : "( 1) Changing the group A and B c riteria so that students 18 years of age or older are not dependent on parental income . "

(2) Provide more bursary assis tance for the most needy students . "

(3) Adjusting allowance levels to reflect actual costs . "

(4) Lowering the loan bursary ratio and "

(5) Removing the loan maximum . ~ "We trust you will do what you can to help bring about these very warranted changes . Completed copies of the survey results are available upon request. Representatives of UMSU are eager to meet with you to discuss the student aid system at your convenience. Respectfully yours , Joey Cyr , VicePresident, University of Mani toba Students ' Union ." I would ask the Minister if he has made arrangements to meet with UMSU to discuss their recommendations to the government? MR. COSENS: Mr.

Chairman , I have not received that particular survey nor have I been asked to meet with them to discuss that particular survey . I'm quite prepared to do so of course at the first opportunity . I was interested in several of the points that the Member for Winnipeg Centre presented in his reading of that letter. One of the recommendations was that the amount of bursary be increased and that is something, in fact , that we did last year . We increased the bursary from $1 ,400 to $1 ,800 , so that in fact did happen last year . Perhaps the survey indicates that it should be increased again .

That may be a further recommendation . 3372

' Monday, April 30, 1979 I would also mention on another point brought out in that particular survey that the Member for Winnipeg Centre refers to, that the loan maximum is set by the Federal government under their particular Canada Student Loans legislation . We have had some indication that they have been considering new legislation to increase that loan maximum, but I would suggest that has been thwarted somewhat by the calling of the present Federal election .

As far as the other points are concerned, I'm quite prepared to take those under advisement and have our officials study them and look at them quite seriously. ~ MR. CHAIRMAN: (1)-pass. The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. RONALD McBRYDE: Mr. Chai rman , I'm trying to recall if we got the numbers for this

section yet, the Civil Service numbers and stuf f. If we haven't asked that question , the Civil Service numbers, how many staff in this sect ion? MR. COSENS: There are for ty SMYs in this particula r

section , Mr. Chairman. The Member for The Pas, I believe , had asked a question concerning Frontier Division and the particul ar bursary awards to that division. I have the following figures that 75 awards were made to students attending Frontier Collegiate, some 144 awards to students on home placement, attending high schools throughout the southern part of the province, for a total of some 219 awards. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr . Chairman, of that 40 staff man years, could the Minister advise us whether there were changes or what the level was in the past? MR.

COSENS: Mr. Chairman, it's my understanding that there's been a reduction of three in that particular

section in line with the reduction in the number of applications that we've received over the last year or two in that regard . MR. CHAIRMAN: (1)-pass; (2)-pass; (3)-pass; (m)-pass; (

n) Special Projects,

(1) Continuing Education Programs-pass. The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, could we have the staff levels of this

section last year and this year, whether there's been any changes in that regard? MR. COSENS: I'll have that information, Mr. Chairman, for the honourable member in a few minutes, if he'd like to proceed with other matters in this connection at this time. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could outline the specific projects that are under the Special Projects

section at this time and the level of funding for each when he came to office and the level of funding for each at this time, and indicate what programs are no longer in this

section that might have been in the past. MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, I believe I provided that information to the Honourable Member for The Pas, not only from the time that I assumed office but also back to 1975, so that he does have ~ that particular information . MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, could I check with the Minister whether he rean that into the record or whether it was a mimeo sheet that was sent over? MR. COSENS: I provided this information to the education critic on the other side, Mr. Chairman, but I will go over that information for the benefit of the Member for The Pas.

Perhaps he has misplaced that particular information. In the year 1977-78, fiscal year '77-78, the total amount of funding was $4.8 million . For fiscal year '78-79, $4.1 million. For fiscal year '79-80, the year now under consideration, $3.78 million. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman , I wonder if the Minister could name the prOjects that are still under this particular item in his Estimates . MR. COSENS: The following projects still fall under this item, Mr. Chairman: The Special Mature Student program, University of Manitoba; the Special Mature Student program, Brandon University; 3373

Monday, April 30, 1979 the Special Mature Student program, Brandon General Hospital ; the Special Mature Student program, Red River Community College; the lndian-Metis project for careers through teacher education, better known as IMPACTE; the Brandon University Northern Teacher Education project' better known as BUNTEP ; the Winnipeg Education Centre ; and the Native Family Life Counselling. ;rhose are the programs falling under this particular heading , Mr. Chairman. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman, I thank the Honourable Minister for the information he's provided and I'm going to have to double check with him because our official education critic is unable to locate that particular document on the changes for this year in each of the categories that the Minister mentions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre . MR. BOYCE: Mr. Chairman , I'm sorry I misplaced that for the moment , because I was primarily interested in the two programs, with IMPACTE and BUNTEP , but there are other programs which are included under that appropriation .

When we were discussing it before , it was rationalizing the transfers that which had taken place through Northlands and the rest of it, because there were other programs also included under Continuing Education . My questions arose out of dialogue , which the Newsletter of the Manitoba Association for Continuing Education in 1978, was last year when they put this paper out , showing the cuts, and perhaps the easiest way would be for me to send across the copy of this to the Minister , and perhaps if he could put in the comparative amounts of these items as they are listed in this particular format , Mr.

Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. COSENS: Well, Mr. Chairman, perhaps we can facilitate the matter by providing once again a copy of the information that the member requested earlier , and was provided, and I will send this across to the member at this time . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman , the projects we are looking at here now were the programs that were aimed for a considerable

part into providing educational opportunities for Native people in Manitoba , or for people who had special needs and were unable to get education through the normal educational system. Mr. Chairman, the programs themselves have been reduced by this government in the last - well , the first year they were in office - and this year as well , Mr.

Chairman, and I'm sure that the Minister would not argue about the need for this type of approach in the Province of Manitoba, for this type of emphasis which not only benefits the people directly involved in the program themselves , in providing opportunity for them to improve their skills and ability and to be able to contribute to their community . One of the big problems that we have , Mr.

Chairman , is the problem of Native people within the school system generally, and these programs . . . a number of them were designed to assist teachers, to assist Native people to become teachers , so to overcome the kind of cultu ral gap that would exist between a non-Nat ive person or a person who hadn 't had experience in these types of communities to train people who were familiar with the communities , who were part of the communities , to assist them to get an education to be able to teach children, to be able to improve the educational opportunities for children within the Native communities . And, Mr.

Chairman , certainly we can see from the figures that there is a drastic need for this; for example , a study done by the Department of Northern Affairs and Northern Development , this particular study , Mr. Chairman , was a report on the education of Indians in Federal and Provincial Schools in Manitoba . A couple of the illustrations of the situation were that 17 percent of Indian students in Manitoba fail Grade 1; that 30 percent of all Indian students are at least one year behind in school for the ir age; only 10 percent of Indian students attend high school.

There were a number of recommendations that came out of that report in terms of how toddeal with that situation . This particular study was conducted jointly by the Native Council of Canada and the Native Employment Division of Canada Employment and Immigration Commission , and , Mr. Chairman, this other study refers to the Metis and non-status Indians . And th is report said that approximately one-half of the Metis and non-status Indians surveyed had completed 9 or more grades of schooling compared to three-quarters of the genera l population .

In other words , 50 percent of the non-Native students completed Grade 9. The study continued that the figures for Grade 13 or more , post-secondary to completion of 3374

Monday, April 30, 1979 university degrees' studies, show that Natives are much less likely to take higher education; 2-112 percent of Metis and non-status Indians and 26 percent of Canadians, as compared with 26 percent of Canadians, completed 13 or more grades of schooling . So, Mr. Chairman, I'm sure that the Minister is well aware Of those kind of figures, of those kind of statistics , and, Mr. Chairman, he is familiar with the development of these particular programs that have assisted people of Native ancestry and other persons who have special needs in terms of education in the province Of Manitoba .

One of the first of the projects that was initiated under the previous administration, Mr. Chairman, was the PENT Program , the Project for Education of Native Teachers, and the PENT Peogram was basically a summer program for the people employsd as teacher aids during the school year to study during the summer sessions, and that program was conducted out of Brandon University. The people involved in the program were persons identified by their community as people they wished to be involved in the inStruction of their children. The program after the PENT Program , Mr.

Chairman, was the IMPACTE Program, which the Min ister has mentioned. The IMPACTE Program was a combined effort of funding by the provincial and federal government and it operates both on campus and off campus. The off campus units are located in rural and northern Manitoba. This particular program , Mr. Chairman, provides a full course of studies in Teacher Training leading to a certificate or a degree in Elementary School Education. Students in this program were selected by the communities in each community and were allowed three years to do the required two-year teacher's certification, and this, Mr.

Chairman, has now become a four-year program . The students in this program were full-time during the university year. The Special Mature Student Program , which is operated at Brandon University and the University of Manitoba, has also been a cost-shared program, and the program is basically designed for people of low social economic status who can benefit from the university education , and is not specific to teacher education. The federal government counterpart, to the Special Mature Student Program is the Core Program.

The IMPACTE Program originally was developed for native people in the southern part of the province but because it was successful in doing what it was designed to do, the program was of course expanded into the northern area of the province and the result was the BUNTEP Program, the Brandon University Northern Teacher Education Project , so both the programs , Mr. Chairman, are based on the same design , or the same format.

Similarly, and I'm sure my colleague from Winnipeg Centre will like to comment further, was the program designed to provide adult education, to provide educational opportunities in Winnipeg Centre , or the Winnipeg Centre Project. Mr.

Chairman, I would like the Minister to give us some indication as to why he sees the reduction, or whether or not he sees that the programs are not effective as his colleagues have indicated in other programs that they wanted to reduce, or whether he sees these as effective and there is just less need for people to take these programs, or whether he sees them as effective, there is still a need but the funding was reduced under the change of priorities of his particular government. MR. COSENS: Mr.

Chairman, as the Member for The Pas is certainly aware, the objectives of this branch, the Special Projects Branch, have always been and of course remain developmental. That is, the Branch is in co-operation with various post-secondary institutions, establishes relatively short term programs to deal with particular educational needs , and as a result, it's vital to constantly assess not only the effectiveness of the projects in terms of cost and quality, but also in terms " of the priorities and directions of the Branch . I can say, Mr.

Chairman, that over the last year there has been a very thorough examination of the activities of the Branch with the objective of deciding which projects have served their purpose and should now be terminated, which projects should continue to operate, and what new directions might be pursued. And the Estimates for this Branch reflect that analysis and those particular dec isions. This coming year in some ways will be a year of consolidation, where every effort will be made to strengthen continuing activities and to realize the full potential of those activities. In addition I can report, Mr.

Chairman, the Branch has begun discussions with representatives of the School of Medicine, to explore ways in which native people might be encouraged to enter upon and succeed in the field of medicine. Thirty thousand dollars has been made available to facilitate that objective and I might report also that some $10,000 has been set aside to encourage programming at the Winnipeg Education Centre in areas such as continuing education and social work activities that will be additional to the existing Teacher Education project. Mr.

Chairman, I can also report that with the signing of agreements between the government and the co-operating post-secondary institutions and the establishment of Advisory and Policy committees to oversee the projects, the organization and operation of the projects is stronger than 3375

Monday, April 30, 1979 ever before. Particular reference might be made to the Winnipeg Education Centre . I know the Member for Winnipeg Centre has some interest there . At this time last year , there were a number of questions and comments regarding the transfer of that projecttto the University of Manitoba. I can report that the transfer has been effected smoothly; the staff and students are happy; morale is high and the program is of an obviously high quality. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I would be prepared at this time to go into some detail on the particular programs that fall under this particular division and perhaps remark on each particular program as to the direction that is being followed . In regard to the Special Mature Student Program at the University of Manitoba, there has been an increase in funding allotted from $447,000 last year to $460,600 this year . We had some 42 students enrolled in that particular program last year; there will be 42 students enrolled in the program in the coming year of 1979-80, 10 of them replacing graduates from the program.

In the Special Mature Student Program at Brandon University, we are seeing a decrease in funding from $427,300 to $269,950 .00. There were some 29 students in that program last year, Mr, Chairman, there will be 15 in the program in the coming year . We are not taking replacements into the program and I might explain the rationale at this point .

We are encouraging and in fact finding that students are concerned that they be allowed to follow professional programs; not general B.A., or Science programs, and the problem that we have encountered is that at Brandon University , they have very excellent General programs in Arts and Science and in Teaching, but they do not offer professional programs beyond teaching . And, as a result , we have had a number of students who had to transfer to the University of Manitoba in order to enter professional schools. In fact, I believe the figure this year, Mr. Chairman, was some six students who transferred .

As a result , to enable these students to be able to enrol in the professional schools, we are phasing out the Special Mature Program at Brandon University and putting additional emphasis on the program at the University of Manitoba . Once again, the main rationale being the fact that the opportunity to enter professional schools is available at the University of Manitoba . On that particular score, Mr. Chairman, I might just mention the types of courses or the faculties that we find students enrolled in at this time at the University of Manitoba .

We have 6 in the B.Ed . program; 2 in the Bachelor of Nursing program; 2 students enrolled in Law; 2 in Physical Education; 2 in Agriculture; 1 in Fine Arts; 10 in Bachelor of Social Work; 1 in Home Ec; there are 20 mostly first and second-year students in the B.A. course; 1 in the Bachelor of Science. I just thought I would provide that information, Mr. Chairman. It does give an indication of the diversity of faculties ~ that these particular students are interested in and are working in at this time.

The Special Mature Student Program at the Brandon General Hospital received funding last year to the amount of $205,400 .00. There is an increase in funding this year of some $211 ,562.00. There were 20 students enrolled in that course last year; there will be 20 enrolled this year ; we are taking in a further 17 students to replace those who are graduating . I might report that that program is proceeding with a great deal of success and an enthusiastic reception , not only from the students but from people at Brandon Hospital.

The Special Mature Student Program at Red River Community College ; I can report there that we are seeing an increase in funding. We had some 20 students enrolled last year ; we will have 20 enrolled this year, again taking in 7, replacing those who have either graduated or dropped out of the program. The IMPACTE Program received funding of some $495 ,900 last year . I might mention at this point, Mr. Chairman, that this particular IMPACTE Program was a provincial program and did not receive federal funding.

It's my understanding there were 2 IMPACTE programs; one run by the Federal Government on campus at Brandon and one located in communities in southern Manitoba that was under the jurisdiction of the provincial government. We have made the decision, Mr. Chairman, to phase this particular program out . Last year there were some 32 students in the program; this year there will be 22 and we have no intake this year. Our rationale for this particular move is that these students are located in southern Manitoba in communities that are not far removed from teacher training institutions .

They are living among people and in communities where we are finding a surplus of teachers at this time, where there is no shortage of teachers available to fill positions, and it is our decision that this particular program should be phased out. "' The Brandon University Northern Teacher Education Project - BUNTEP - received funding last year of some $1 .7 million. This year it will receive funding of some $1 .4 million , a decrease of about $256,000.00. There were some 105 students enrolled last year , Mr. Chairman , there will be 95 students enrolled this year .

We have an intake of 35 students to replace those graduating and I can report that we also will be opening a new BUNTEP centre in Fairford in the next few days. The Winnipeg Education Centre received funding last year and again this is totally provincial funding of $447,300.00. It will receive funding this year of $607 ,700, a sizable increase , Mr. Chairman . 3376

Monday, April 30, 1979 And the Winnipeg Education Centre had some 51 students enrolled last year; it will have 60 students enrolled this year, 15 of them representi ng a new intake to replace the graduates. These students once again are adults , many of them from the core area of the city, some who are of Metis background, some of them are native people and others are from many different nationalities who comprise the core area of our city.

But we are dealing here with adults who have decided to pursue their education, many of them who had not completed their high school education but who do this as part of the program . As I say, the transfer of this program to the University of Manitoba, Mr. Chairman, has been accomplished quite smoothly .

I have had the pleasure of visiting the Winnipeg Education Centre and have talked to the students and with them, and I am very encouraged by the type of work that is being carried on there and the enthusiasm of the people involved and I am also encouraged by the success that the graduates of this program have been having in the community . They provide a valuable function on their graduation. The Native Family Life Counselling received funding of some $156,000 last year. That has been .decreased this year to some $53,500 .00. We are phas ing this program out.

There will be no intake this year on the basis that the need no longer exists and I say that again on the basis of advice we have received from our Advisory Committee. The direction that is being taken in this particular area is in service, not in training people, and the program that we were involved here was a trai ning function. I have mentioned, Mr. Chairman, that we are providing an additional $30,000 for our gmedical Development Program in connection with native students and we have also provided an extra $10,000 along with the Winnipeg Education Centre Program for development into some new programs there.

I might also mention that in our BUNTEP program we have been looking at new directions in that program as well. It has been training elementary teachers in past years and will continue, of course , to train elementary teachers. We are now exploring the possibility of the training of secondary teachers, high school teachers, teachers with special train ing in vocational guidance and in guidance generally .

We think that these new directions can do nothing but enhance the educational system and particularly the educational system in the northern part of our province where the vast majority of these graduates will teach . And of course, Mr. Chairman, it has been established and established for some time that there are probably some 360 odd teaching places available for native teacher graduates in this province. And at the particular rate of graduation at this time of perhaps some 40 to 45 students a year, it would indicate that in a few years we will have filled that particular complement. I like to think, Mr.

Chairman, that these teachers are receiving as fine and as high a quality a teacher training as teacher trainings anywhere else in the province and if there are no longer opportunities for these people to teach in the north, if all spots eventually become filled there, that these teachers will also consider teaching in southern schools . Their qualifications will be on a par with teachers graduating from our southern teacher training institutions . That has been something that I've been quite concerned about.

I want to make sure that these people entering the BUNTEP Program are not receiving a second-class teacher's certificate but a teacher's certificate that is the equivalent of any that is earned in the Province of Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would like to not deal with every part of this at one time but perhaps get the Minister's comments a little more broken down in total. Mr. Chairman, we loOk at the Items No. 1 and 2 on the sheet that he was kind enough to give to us.

We note that the Special Mature Student Program at both Brandon University and the University of Manitoba had a total last year - and that program last year, Mr. Chairman , was a reduction from the years before - had a reduction from 71 students in the program to a reduction of 57 students in the program because of the elimination of the Special Mature Student Program at Brandon . In other words, there was no effort made to keep the numbers at least constant with last year's lower level let alone returning to the 1977-78 levels of that particular program.

I wonder if the Minister would be kind enough to share with us the report or to read from the report the advice that he is going on that would support the reduction of that nature that would support the total elimination of the program at Brandon and only the cont inuation of the same level at the University of Manitoba or a reduction, Mr. Chairman, from 71 students in the Special Mature Student Program at the two universities to 57. I wonder if he could indicate from his thorough study and evaluation that's been done, the recommendations that would support that particular action. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . 3377

Monday, April 30, 1979 MR. COSENS: Well, Mr. Chairman , I think I mentioned in my previous remarks that the main rationale in the decision regarding the Special Mature Student Program at Brandon University was of course the fact that we did not have the availability of professional schools there other than teacher training and that many of these students were interested in entrance to professional schools - and I speak here of law and fine arts and the agriculture and so on - that are available at the University of Manitoba . That certainly was the main factor in this particular decision.

We are of course in a transition stage and if the Member for The Pas is concerned about numbers in making this particular transition , we want to weigh carefully what particular results we will find and of course if we find that the results are encouraging that we are in fact making the correct step and we feel we are, then we will have to consider the possibility of increasing this particular area as will. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman , I was quite familiar with the Minister 's explanation for the change from Brandon . Mr . Chairman , I don 't have the information to refute that or not tO refute that.

What I am concerned about , Mr. Chairman , is the overall reduction in the program between $200,000 and $300,000 and the reduction from 71 students in the program to 57 students in the program . If I hear the Honourable Minister correctly , he is saying that the program will now be concentrated in the University of Manitoba and will be shut down at Brandon University , that maybe the Universi

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-3-50a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 3rd hansardpdf 50a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	e9d427592335c380b88fac6e36d0f802d9db46e4

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