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March 2, 2011

39th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2011-Mar-02 (PDF)

L088 - Wed 2 Mar 2011 / Mer 2 mar 2011

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Wednesday 2 March 2011 Mercredi 2 mars 2011

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TIME ALLOCATION

WEARING OF RIBBONS

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

ORAL QUESTIONS

HYDRO CHARGES

HYDRO CHARGES

GASOLINE PRICES

TAXATION

ELECTRICITY INFRASTRUCTURE

DISCLOSURE OF TOXINS

HOSPITAL SERVICES

WIND TURBINES

NUCLEAR ENERGY

GREENBELT

RENEWABLE ENERGY

HEALTH CARE

AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY

SCHOOL SAFETY

AIR-RAIL LINK

COMMUNITY SAFETY

USE OF QUESTION PERIOD

VISITORS

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

EPILEPSY

EPILEPSY

ELMIRA MAPLE SYRUP FESTIVAL

JEFF MAULER

ENERGY POLICIES

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION

YOUTH IN YORK WEST

EPILEPSY

ENERGY POLICIES

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON REGULATIONS AND PRIVATE BILLS

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

HIGHWAY TRAFFIC

AMENDMENT ACT

(ROADSIDE ASSISTANCE

VEHICLES), 2011 /

LOI DE 2011 MODIFIANT

LE CODE DE LA ROUTE

(VÉHICULES D’ASSISTANCE ROUTIÈRE)

PESTICIDES AMENDMENT ACT, 2011 /

LOI DE 2011 MODIFIANT

LA

LOI SUR LES PESTICIDES

EPILEPSY AWARENESS DAY ACT, 2011 /

LOI DE 2011 SUR LA JOURNÉE

DE SENSIBILISATION À L’ÉPILEPSIE

MOTIONS

PRIVATE MEMBERS’ PUBLIC BUSINESS

YVONNE O’NEILL

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AND RESPONSES

GREENBELT

PETITIONS

OAK RIDGES MORAINE

DIAGNOSTIC SERVICES

CEMETERIES

ONLINE LOTTERY TERMINALS

TRAVAILLEURS SUPPLÉANTS

RURAL SCHOOLS

REPLACEMENT WORKERS

HIGHWAY CONSTRUCTION

CHRONIC CEREBROSPINAL VENOUS INSUFFICIENCY

HIGHWAY IMPROVEMENT

HIGHWAY CONSTRUCTION

ONTARIO SOCIETY

FOR THE PREVENTION

OF CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

OAK RIDGES MORAINE

OPPOSITION DAY

HYDRO CHARGES

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Good morning. Please remain standing for the Lord’s Prayer, followed by the Hindu prayer.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TIME ALLOCATION

Hon. Monique M. Smith: I move that, pursuant to standing order 47 and notwithstanding any other standing order or special order of the House relating to Bill 150,

An Act to provide for the resolution of labour disputes involving the Toronto Transit Commission, when Bill 150 is next called as a government order the Speaker shall put every question necessary to dispose of the second reading stage of the bill without further debate or amendment and at such time the bill shall be ordered referred to the Standing Committee on General Government; and

That the vote on second reading may be deferred pursuant to standing order 28(h); and

That the Standing Committee on General Government be authorized to meet on Wednesday, March 9, 2011, and Monday, March 21, 2011, during its regular meeting times for public hearings and be authorized to meet on Wednesday, March 23, 2011, during its regular meeting times for the purpose of clause-by-clause consideration of the bill; and

That the deadline for filing amendments to the bill with the clerk of the committee shall be 4 p.m. on Tuesday, March 22, 2011. At 5 p.m. on Wednesday, March 23, 2011, those amendments which have not yet been moved shall be deemed to have been moved, and the Chair of the committee shall interrupt the proceedings and shall, without further debate or amendment, put every question necessary to dispose of all remaining sections of the bill and any amendments thereto. The committee shall be authorized to meet beyond the normal hour of adjournment for clause-by-clause consideration on Wednesday, March 23, 2011.

Any division required shall be deferred until all remaining questions have been put and taken in succession, with one 20-minute waiting period allowed pursuant to standing order 129(a); and

That the committee shall report the bill to the House no later than Thursday, March 24, 2011. In the event that the committee fails to report the bill on that day, the bill shall be deemed to be passed by the committee and shall be deemed to be reported to and received by the House; and

That, upon receiving the report of the Standing Committee on General Government, the Speaker shall put the question for adoption of the report forthwith, and at such time the bill shall be ordered for third reading, which order may be called that same day; and

That, when the order for third reading of the bill is called, one hour shall be allotted to the third reading stage of the bill, apportioned equally among the recognized parties. At the end of this time, the Speaker shall interrupt the proceedings and shall put every question necessary to dispose of this stage of the bill without further debate or amendment; and

That the vote on third reading may be deferred pursuant to standing order 28(h); and

That, in the case of any division relating to any proceedings on the bill, the division bell shall be limited to five minutes.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Further debate?

Mr. John O’Toole: It’s a pleasure this morning to be able to speak again on Bill 150. I think I’ve pretty well said everything I had to say on that bill, actually, but I will do the very best I can.

The reason is, I think, in a broader sense, if you look at the bill itself, what it really does is remove the right to strike from transit workers in Toronto, at the request of the new mayor of Toronto. Mayor Ford was elected overwhelmingly, with a mandate to bring some semblance of order to the city of Toronto. I think it’s a complicated issue in Toronto in terms of—I know people who live here. It’s a wonderful city. It’s the best city in Canada, I guess, by my

interpretation.

What they’ve got is a terrific assessment base in Toronto. They have the Hummingbird Centre and the Rogers Centre, or whatever it’s called, and all these industrial-commercial taxes that really don’t create students for the school system or people in the parks. People come here to go to the theatre and, as was said, some of the best universities—the University of Toronto, where I attended years ago. The point is, those institutions that provide either payments in lieu or direct taxes to the economy don’t create people.

When you look on the residential tax side, this is where the issue is. This is important. Their tax assessment base is about 60% industrial-commercial—the big bank towers. They have a pretty high property and business tax base on that industrial-commercial, restaurants etc. That pays for all the services, generally, that they have.

The residential tax, on the other hand—Mr. Speaker, you would know this, having served municipally as well—in Toronto is quite low. It is; it’s actually lower than Durham’s. Yet they have Handi-Transit at the door, more or less, which is appropriate; I don’t disagree with it. My point is, I don’t think they tax the residential side very highly in Toronto.

My son, who was working at a law firm in downtown Toronto—his wife had a very good job here as well—lived in the Beaches. It’s a lovely neighbourhood: wonderful, beautiful, neighbourly, friendly etc. I remember when they moved from Nova Scotia, where they were living. He went to law school there. The house was quite small, actually.

The point I’m trying to make is this: They paid about $400,000 or $450,000 for it, or something like that—I think they sold it for $700,000—but their taxes were less than those for my house in the country. You know what I mean? I’m serious. Their taxes were half of mine. I was living in the country, just outside Bowmanville, in a house on five acres. I had my own well and my own septic. My taxes were over $7,000, my point being—

Interjection: Get a smaller house.

Mr. John O’Toole: No, I have five kids. It was a big house. But here’s the point; the point is this—

Interjection.

Mr. John O’Toole: I’m trying to help you through this.

Peter, you should be listening. You’re a young fella; you probably don’t know these things.

The issue is this: They’ve got to look at the tax base on the residential side in Toronto. People should pay their fair share. Then you get into the affordability issue, and I often talk about the—

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Order.

Mr. John O’Toole: Speaker, if you could—sometimes they don’t want to hear the truth.

What is my point here? The city of Toronto is fighting over having essential services in transit. I understand that. They’re really going out of their way to make it absolutely awkward for anybody with a car. You can’t park here. They’ve got these bike lanes. It’s just incredible; there’s nobody in them. They’ve congested traffic so it is really uncomfortable to have a car in Toronto.

What’s this bill about? It’s all about turning Toronto into a highly concentrated—I missed one part; I’ve got to back up a little bit. How Toronto is fixing its tax base is this: They’ve run out of space—there are no more vacant lots—so what they’re doing is knocking down a house and building 50 houses on top of each other, called a condo. Each one of those condos on that lot is going to pay around $4,000 to $5,000 in taxes. So rather than having one house paying $5,000, they’re going to have 50 houses on top of each other, called a condo. That is what is happening.

We’re turning into an intensified redevelopment, with people jammed in, sort of like in China or in Hong Kong. They have jammers in Hong Kong to get people into the bus; they push them in. So quality of life might be at risk here; I’m not sure. But Billy Elliot: great theatre. I saw it myself. I would say it has things to offer people who can afford to live here.

But the real point of this is, I’ve looked through—there’s a good

article I’d recommend to people on how much we’re going to be spending on transit. I sort of live in the rural part of Durham. I’m proud to represent Uxbridge; Scugog, which is primarily Port Perry; and Clarington, whose main cities are Bowmanville and Newcastle. We do have transit there, although I have to have a car to get to the transit. I can’t get a bus to go to the GO train. I’ve got to take the car to the bus and the bus to the GO train. It’s hardly integrated. You’ve got to leave for work at about 5 o’clock to get here at 8 o’clock. I’m not kidding; I commute. I didn’t this morning; I stayed over last night because I was at the ROMA convention.

But my point is this: I looked at this report, and I think Premier McGuinty, with all due respect, has completely screwed up or messed up—whatever word you want to use—the transit system. What he has done is outsource it, so he can’t get blamed, to a group called Metrolinx.

Mr. Jean-Marc Lalonde: Look what you got with the 407.

Mr. John O’Toole: Whatever. We’ll get to that, Jean-Marc.

In the very little time I have to speak, I’ve got three major topics that I’ve got to get on here. One is to link Toronto’s tax issues to the transit issue. Transit is not free. Transit around the world is very heavily subsidized—very heavily subsidized. That’s Toronto’s plan. Don’t come whining all the time to Premier McGuinty, or whoever the Premier happens to be, for the extra $100 million to balance your budget.

When I looked at it—I was transportation critic when, I think, Mr. Bradley was the minister. I met with Rob MacIsaac, who at that time was the head of Metrolinx, and Metrolinx was coming up with the Transit City plan. Then the issue became electrification versus diesel power for the transit system. In the long run it’s clear, for the environment and for efficiency, that transit should be electrified, but it’s a significant change in how things are done.

We started looking into the Metrolinx plan for the GTA—I think the report was called the Big Move. Listen up: Here’s a really important thing that people have got to know. It’s sort of like the renewable energy bill, Bill 150: Show me the money. Sometimes these are good decisions. All debt is not bad. I wouldn’t own a house if I wasn’t able to have a mortgage. All debt is not bad. But here’s the deal: Operational spending is where the issue is. Metrolinx wants, every single year, an additional $5 billion.

Let’s put this in perspective. We already have about a $20-billion hole in the ground, and we’re going to commit to another $5 billion? I don’t think so, unless you’re going to borrow it from the children, because debt is future taxes. You have to either reduce your spending, which means you have to cut service, you have to grow your economy—the economy is as flat as water on a plate—or you have to increase taxes on people who are already almost underwater on tax: the HST, eco tax, you name it.

Now, one would just say, what are our priorities? I think we’ve got the priorities wrong. First of all, stop doing these things that are just popular. You know what I mean? It’s like when computers first came out, but the computers that came out later are faster, better, smarter and cheaper. Solar panels is a good example. They’re diving into solar power at 80 cents a kilowatt hour. It’s unbelievable. These solar panels will be integrated into shingles within five years, and everybody will have them on their homes. Right now they’re spending millions on photovoltaic panels. They’re going too fast without thorough investigation and review.

This transit plan—I’m going to give you one example of the waste that’s made by not actually planning and thinking. Eighty per cent of any job is planning it. Eighty per cent of theirs is spending it, and 20% is planning.

They screwed up the Green Energy Act. Who is opposed to renewable energy? Nobody.

Hon. Carol Mitchell: You are.

Mr. John O’Toole: See? In fact, they mislead people by telling them things that are false, lies.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): There are a couple of things here. I think, first, we should watch our language. Second, we should attempt to speak to the issue that’s at hand—and I know you’re trying to do that.

Mr. John O’Toole: Thank you, Speaker. The Minister of Agriculture should put a few solar panels in the agricultural communities.

My point is this: On the transit thing, I think, again, they’ve made another error. The error shows up on the tax bill. I’m going to put it out; it’s an

article by the Globe and Mail, dated February 19th—and by the way, Mr. Speaker, with all due respect, I’m speaking to a time allocation motion. This is shutting down debate, terminating input on this important—the galleries were full of transit workers who, respectfully, have the right to negotiate settlements. I’m completely in favour of that. Now they’re just kind of putting their foot on their chest and saying, “We’re going to take that right away from you.” This time allocation—we’re going to have an hour to speak. I’ve got 40 minutes this morning, because nobody else wants to speak on it.

This

article says, “Revised Transit Blueprint Taking Shape

“Early signs point to Queen’s Park, Metrolinx agreeing to Ford’s altered plan for transit in Toronto....

“Metrolinx [is] agreeing to Mayor Rob Ford’s revised plan for transit in Toronto....

“The old network’s first phase—which was fully funded by the provincial and federal governments”—that’s the same taxpayer; who are we kidding? You know what I mean? It’s a shell game. It’s sort of like at the carnival.

It says here, “Mr. Ford campaigned on burying all new transit lines.” That probably makes sense, really. There’s no more space, and you’re going to have trains running up and down.

“The province and Metrolinx agreed to seek a compromise on the condition they don’t have to kick in more than the $8.15 billion they’d already promised.” That’s the province that is promising $8.15 billion.

“As for Eglinton, Metrolinx has awarded an $80-million contract for concrete tunnel liners and a $42-million contract for the design of seven stations on the 11-kilometre stretch....

“‘Our basis for going ahead at this point is our confidence that the tunnelled

section between Jane and Laird appears to be in everybody’s plan for moving forward,’ said Bruce McCuaig, the president of Metrolinx.”

Bruce McCuaig was an assistant deputy minister at the Ministry of Transportation: another civil servant who’s probably got a pension from there and now has got an appointment to Metrolinx—I don’t think so.

Here’s the real key, and I’m going to read it because it’s that important; it needs to be on the record. “The Metrolinx board voted Friday to spend $53 million (U.S.) on twelve vehicles built by the American arm” of a Japanese company, “Sumitomo Corp.” Actually, it’s probably a division of Samsung; they gave them $7 billion. I don’t know where they’re getting all the money.

“The deal includes an option to buy six more at $22 million.” So, six of them are $22 million; figure out the numbers yourself. They got such a great deal. This was an untendered contract where they spent almost $100 million for diesel trains. This isn’t finished. This is the waste.

“Metrolinx piggybacked on a competitive tender ... by Sonoma-Marin county in California ... that knocked down the price from an earlier ... $100 million” to the numbers I just read.

“‘It’s given us a wonderful result in terms of the cost,’” said Rob Prichard. Rob Prichard is the chair of Metrolinx. He’s the past president of the University of Toronto. He was also—I mean, they’re all connected.

Here’s the deal: Now they’ve promised—I’ll cut this short, because it is related—to electrify. The reason they’re buying these trains is for the Pan American Games in 2015. They want to have sort of clean transit. But after that, they’re going to cancel those $100-million trains and electrify them, and they’ve committed to electrify the GO system.

Why are they throwing good money after bad money? That’s waste, and it’s a lot to do with the TTC, because Bob can’t connect the dots. They haven’t got a plan; that’s the plan.

Interjections.

Mr. John O’Toole: I would say that if someone says I have no plan, they’re saying something that doesn’t need to be said, because I’m not the leader. Our leader does have a plan.

But I’ll tell you what I am planning. This whole business, to me, of what they’ve messed up—I’ve got two meetings tomorrow. My riding is blessed to have the Oak Ridges moraine, almost right through my riding. It’s beautiful: the vista of Toronto—wonderful. I do believe it should be protected; I always have. In fact, when I was a councillor, years ago, I was on the conservation authority. The NDP actually didn’t recognize the Oak Ridges moraine; Mike Harris did.

Interjection.

Mr. John O’Toole: Yes, he did. Anyway, we won’t get into a conversation with the House leader. She should be reading up on this afternoon’s business.

The point being, I’m going to have a meeting. What’s happened recently is that a company is rehabilitating an abandoned pit. There are pits and quarries all over the moraine; you know that. The pit is being filled up by a company called Earthworx, and that company is being challenged in court on March 11 by the mayor and council of the township of Scugog; the new mayor, Chuck Mercier. I met with him this week at ROMA. They are going to court to resolve this issue about whether the fill that’s going into the moraine is clean.

The reason is, the moraine is 12 feet from the aquifer, which is the water that feeds to homes and families. I read a statement in the House yesterday about a family who are refusing to drink their water now.

The reason I bring this up is because Mayor Gerri Lynn O’Connor, from the town of Uxbridge, is convening a meeting with the Ministry of the Environment and other stakeholders to get to the roots.

What I’m doing is I’m issuing a private member’s bill, which I’m sure will eventually become law. I know it will be, because it’s the right thing to do. After working with various groups—agronomists and all these experts—we’ve come up with a plan that would mandate that provincially zoned land, like the Oak Ridges moraine and the greenbelt, has rules and regulations around the appropriate fill for these large aggregate resources that have been mined out.

All the gravel has been taken out and there are these big holes in the earth that form apertures right into the aquifers of the water that’s the very essence of life. It’s not overbearing; it’s just to make sure that we’re not putting brownfield, dirty fill into these holes. Sure, we’ve got to move fill—I understand that—and make those grades proper so that they don’t expose the aquifer. That’s the one meeting.

The second meeting that I’m having is with Clarington Wind Concerns. They have Dr. Robert McMurtry, who I believe is the dean of medicine at the University of Western Ontario, who believes—

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): The member for Durham, I’m sure this is going to lead to the matter that is before us.

Mr. John O’Toole: I hope so.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): I do, too.

Mr. John O’Toole: I’m trying to work it back to Bill 150.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): You’re not doing a very good job.

Mr. John O’Toole: I’m going to work toward that goal.

The other meeting—I hope to be taking transit to the meeting, by the way. There you go.

Interjection.

Mr. John O’Toole: No, I do. I take the GO train. I use the TTC all the time. I’m not one of these rich, arrogant snobs riding around in a government-paid car.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): I’ve asked you, just keep the language parliamentary, please.

Mr. John O’Toole: I take transit, and we’ll leave it at that, because it’s the right thing to do. In fact, being a senior, I carry around carefully my little transit—on the TTC, you get one of for seniors; you get a discount rate. You get a discount rate on everything because you’ve got less time than everyone else.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: You can go to Zellers for breakfast. It’s what my grandmother used to do.

Mr. John O’Toole: Well, I think Zellers has been closed. It has been bought out—you know that—by some US firm.

My point being, though, is that there are three huge issues in my riding. Some of them are related to transit, so it does tie back, Mr. Speaker. The one I mentioned is that the Oak Ridges moraine and the greenbelt need to be protected.

The second one is the wind energy. I appreciate Premier McGuinty backtracking on the offshore wind turbines. He sort of cancelled them. They’ll be sued by the companies that have invested. Hundreds of millions of dollars will be spent in court and in settlements. It’s the same as when they cancelled for Kevin Flynn the gas plant in Oakville, but he’s moving it—I know exactly where they’re moving it—to Cambridge. TransCanada PipeLines is going to build it and drop the lawsuit against the government. If people only knew that they’re not planning these things. They’re wasting money, not just in court but in settlements. It’s unbelievable.

Wind energy, in the appropriate place, with the appropriate setbacks, has an appropriate application for renewable energy, but I don’t want one beside my house. No one does. Dr. McMurtry is an expert; none of us here are. Yes, there are three doctors here who aren’t in cabinet, and they should be in cabinet. The member from Oak Ridges–Markham was a medical officer of health for York region. I can’t understand why she’s not the Minister of Health. It doesn’t make any sense to me. But, again, Dr.

McMurtry is going to be appearing in the community, and he’s going to be giving his view on the health risks to the people of Ontario. I hope Premier McGuinty listens. And his minister Brad Duguid: I don’t think he has a clue on the file, personally. He reads the notes well.

The third issue is the 407. Here’s the deal on this one: The 407—and the member from Peterborough knows as well—is a broken promise. It’s the most disturbing of all the promises. I’ve talked about the failure in Metrolinx. I’ve talked about the Green Energy Act and the failures there. Now the third failure is this transit package.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): The member for Durham has talked about almost everything except the point that’s before us today. Please, I have no choice. The standing order says I have to call you to speak to that bill. Thank you.

Mr. John O’Toole: I’m going to tie this back to the frustration of being in opposition and not being given the chance to speak on Bill 150. Mr. Marchese gets it; he gets it. He appreciates it.

This bill here: He is sort of tying it back to the transit issue; it’s the 407. Our transit is missing, okay? Our transit in rural Ontario is basically roads and cars. Not everybody lives in Toronto. We’ve got to start thinking about Ontario. The people in Timmins don’t get it. Do you understand? They belong and they deserve the same health care, the same long-term care as people living in—

Mr. Rosario Marchese: Hey, John, tell them how much you want the bill.

Mr. John O’Toole: Well, the bill itself—Rosario, I’m going to save you some time.

The other part, though, that I need to finish is that during the election the 407 was promised to the region of Durham and to the cities of Oshawa, Clarington, Whitby, Ajax, Pickering, Uxbridge and Brock—promised to all of them. They designed their official plans around it. If you look at their official plans, there’s this ribbon; it’s called the 407. The plan was there. What did they do? They tore up the plan. That’s true—the cynicism.

I am going to get back to this time allocation, because it’s the very tip of the iceberg. What I’m speaking of is what’s below the surface: the trouble I have, the cynicism I feel, the rejection, the lack of concern. The Premier is one of the nicest fellows I’ve ever met, but he has lost his way. He’s somehow been beaten up by all the demands on him by the educators and the public sector wanting more money. He’s been beaten up. He has given away as much as he possibly can to settle all these disputes. He has tried to write a cheque to solve every problem. What has he done? We’ve increased spending.

We’re now spending $116 billion, and that’s why this bill here—now they’re in the panic mode. They’re time-allocating bills; they’re cancelling projects. They cancelled offshore wind. They’re starting to move around in a confused fashion.

I’m quite concerned. I think that October can’t come soon enough. We need to have change. I know that our leader, Tim Hudak, a young, enthusiastic, honest family man—I know in 10 years he’ll be worn out. All he needs is about 10 years in that job—and that’s what Premier McGuinty is doing—and he’ll be handing off the reins of power to someone else. But that 407 promise: Can you imagine stopping it at Simcoe Street in Oshawa? Simcoe Street in Oshawa is right where the university is, the University of Ontario. You can’t get to—Bob, you’re an excellent goalie—

Mr. Bob Delaney: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: I’m looking at standing order 23(b), that directs a member to direct his speech to the topic under discussion. While it’s a very interesting discourse, it has little to do with the time allocation motion or the TTC.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): You, I believe, have a valid point of order that I’ve tried to call the member for Durham to. The member for Durham, please.

Mr. John O’Toole: Okay. This is actually quite interesting, because the time allocation motion does say at the very end that when they cut off the debate on Bill 150—and now we’re into the time allocation; I’ll have to segue back at some point to the 407 discussion—that the deadline for filing amendments to the bill with the clerk should be 4 o’clock on March 22. The reason for that is we’re here next week, then we’re off for a week. If you look at your calendar—and people should pick up one of my business cards, because my business card has a calendar on the back which is very useful.

Mr. Shafiq Qaadri: Send one over.

Mr. John O’Toole: I’ll send one over.

If you’re looking at it, we’re off the week of the 14th, then we come back. So anybody who wants to put in amendments—I would say that transit workers, who were here, the TTC board and other players in transit—here’s the deal: I’m wondering what other transit commissions are thinking. The city of Toronto is going to be an essential service. That means they don’t have the right to strike. What about the city of Ottawa? What about the city of London?

Mr. Rosario Marchese: What do you think?

Mr. John O’Toole: What I think is secondary, because what I know is that Premier McGuinty is removing their right to strike, a fundamental right. Let him explain—

Mr. Rosario Marchese: What do you think about it?

Mr. John O’Toole: In all due respect, our vote is rather tokenistic. They have the majority—

Interjections.

Mr. John O’Toole: No, they have the majority. It’s very frustrating in opposition. We lose every vote. It is so disheartening. After 15 years here, my voice has been quelled or—

Interjection: Neutered.

Mr. John O’Toole: —neutered. Anyway, it is frustrating. No, it’s true. It’s almost like being—

Interjections.

Mr. John O’Toole: In all due respect, I’m trying to talk about the time allocation motion.

There will be an all-party committee. They will move amendments, we will move amendments on this, and I know the NDP will move amendments; I know they will. At least I can trust what they say. I know they are principled. They may be wrong, but they’re principled.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: And you’re going to vote with us.

Mr. John O’Toole: Well, stranger things have happened.

Mr. Speaker, I’m being interrupted, which disturbs my line of thinking, which is strange as well.

“The committee shall be authorized to meet beyond the normal hour of adjournment”—there’s overtime—“for clause-by-clause consideration on Wednesday, March 23, 2011. Any division required shall be deferred until all remaining questions have been put and taken in succession, with one 20-minute waiting period allowed pursuant to standing order 129(a)....”

This thing is going to be rammed through and put to bed, never to be heard from again.

When Mike Harris was here, the front lawn was full, okay? Now Premier McGuinty does it and the galleries are empty. It’s being hidden. It’s being stealthily hidden below the radar screen of the Toronto Star, which is basically their cheerleader notes.

Interjection: I wouldn’t say that.

Mr. John O’Toole: Well, they have been telling more truthful commentary recently.

I guess this rolls me back to why I get so frustrated. Along with Christine Elliott, Jerry Ouellette and myself, there’s been not a peep from Joe Dickson or Wayne Arthurs—pardon me, the member from—

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Thank you. You got it; you got the message.

Mr. John O’Toole: Very good. Yes, the member from—where is it? Maybe you can help me out here. Wayne Arthurs is Pickering–Scarborough East, the member from Pickering–Scarborough East. Actually, he was the mayor of Pickering; a great guy. I was on regional council in Durham with him; a good person. Why did he not stand up to how important the 407—I can tell you this: If they were to deny Hazel McCallion the 427 or something like that, a major artery of the economy, she’d be jumping up and down on Premier McGuinty’s desk. Now what’s happening? Durham is being denied the very artery of the economy, and not a word is being spoken by the two representatives I’ve referred to.

Transit is part of what I’m talking about—

Mr. Jeff Leal: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: I have great respect, and I’ve always found my friend Mr. O’Toole a very likeable gentleman, but it seems to me, with the rules of the House, he is straying a little bit from the debate on the TTC into the 407 and others. I know you’ll provide good guidance on that matter.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): The member for Peterborough has a point of order. The member for Durham is making it very difficult for the Chair, because the standing orders are very clear. I don’t want to have to do anything but listen to you speak to the matter that’s on the floor. I’d like to do that.

Mr. John O’Toole: I’m committing now; I’m reformed. I’m actually going to stick to the topic—generally, in a general sense. I try to link it to the mismanagement of the entire economy.

Quite honestly, this transit decision is the tip of the iceberg. Pay attention. They’re trying to slip it through. A fundamental right is being denied, okay? Whether I agree or disagree, the bill is being put forward by Mr. Sousa, the Minister of Labour—an excellent young guy, who’s learning. I thought Mr. Fonseca was quite good, but he’s running federally, I guess. My point being, it’s the tip of the iceberg. Justice delayed is justice denied in all true fashion.

Now, we have issues with this essential service mediation/arbitration process. I worked in labour relations for General Motors for a number of years, in personnel, and my degree is basically labour economics, so I can tell you what they should be replacing in the arbitration system—and this bill could do this. I would use a process that’s been passed. It’s called final offer selection. Both sides put their final offer on the table. They don’t want to overdo it or underdo it, because the mediator, arbitrator or judge will say, “That’s absurd.”

But when you get into arbitrations recently—we had one in our area, and it took three years for the arbitrator to rule. Now they’re in their next contract; they’re at the table negotiating. The three-year retroactive pay was about $20,000. Wait a minute here: Where is the reflection on the ability to pay? Do you understand? It’s fine for Toronto. As I told you, they’re assessment-based.

See, what I was saying was really quite instructive. I was talking about the wealth of assessment and the opportunities in the Toronto assessment base versus Brockville, for example. How are they going to match Toronto? It’s not happening. It’s a different type of economy. There’s no one size fits all; those expectations are completely unrealistic.

The transit systems around Ontario are watching this very debate, and I feel for you, because transit is basically a municipal responsibility. It gets some transfer of funds in gas, which is a whole other story. That transfer payment is screwed up, because towns that don’t have transit don’t get the provincial gas tax. Towns that have transit get the gas tax provincially. Federally, towns get gas tax for roads and bridges when they don’t have transit. That’s the federal solution, and it’s the right solution.

In our areas—and I look at the member from Brant and others—respectfully, transit for disabled persons etc. should be provided. I completely agree. But when there’s no density, transit doesn’t work. You can’t have buses that cost $400,000 rolling around town. These are important things. Every job that’s full-time, seven days a week, 24 hours a day, takes five people. Did you know that? If you have one position that runs seven days a week, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, it takes five people because of vacations and time off. Three shifts per day; that’s three people. It’s five people, each making $50,000.

That’s $250,000 to run a bus with nobody in it. It’s absurd. Toronto I understand. There are three million people there; it’s bigger than most provinces.

Let’s be honest: What’s at stake here is the definition of the essential service and what it means to other transit systems, which will eventually say, “We want the same law in Mississauga, in York.”

York region, right now, is on strike, I believe; or working to rule in transit, and it does disrupt the economy. I have no question about it. When there’s a monopoly position—that is, no competition—they have you by the throat. A monopoly, by its very structure, has an unbalanced negotiating position: “You either give me what I want or you will not have the service.”

These are the tough choices. In some areas, health care being one, automatically it’s an essential service. You don’t want doctors competing with each other, or nurses. But most professions are differentiated now, meaning for lawyers there are paralegals and for nurses there are nursing assistants and personal support workers. There are options of providing service or scope of practice rules.

This time allocation is typical of what’s happening here. It’s silencing debate. Maybe these are arcane discussions or people aren’t interested, but it is important because transit is the biggest push item across Canada, and maybe around the world. We’ve got to get rid of the cars.

I have two daughters who live in London, England. If you drive into London, England, you better be rich, because it’s about $50 dollars a day plus parking. It’s a fact. They take the train; there’s no choice. I guess if you want to make something mandatory, make the alternative unaffordable.

This bill, small though it is, is very, very susceptible to causing costs to rise for municipalities, and indeed, at the end of the day, for users. It’s already expensive to live in Toronto. The only thing I can say is Rob Ford was elected to make it less expensive, if he could. This bill is going to make it more expensive, in my view.

Suddenly I’ve run out of time.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Thank you. Further debate?

Mr. Rosario Marchese: I’m going to do what the Minister of Community Safety and Correctional Services always used to do; that is, we oppose every time allocation motion presented before the House. Why? Because it strangulates debate; it ends it. I’m going to continue in that tradition, something that the honourable member used to do but no longer wishes to because he is in government. It’s just the way it goes around the table.

I’ve got to tell you, I’m a bit surprised, and not a bit surprised, by my good friend from Durham. He spoke for 40 minutes, and I expected him to say how much he loves the Liberals on this particular bill. I expected that. Not once in 40 minutes did I hear him say, “Thank you. We agree with you.” That’s why I continue to say, whenever I hear the member from Durham, you’re so good in opposition. I love you there, I really do, and I want you to stay for a little longer, because you become a little more sensitive to the issues that Ontarians clearly are expressing to you. It makes you look good. It makes you look better, in my view.

Interjection.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: I’m glad to be able to get up from time to time just to please her.

We find this particular bill repugnant. We find that the Liberals are becoming Conservatives in a hurry. They don’t know how to please Conservatives. Why, first it was income tax cuts and corporate tax cuts. I remember Mr. Martin killing the Reform Party by introducing corporate taxes and income tax cuts as a way to kill the Reform Party and as a way to show Conservatives that Liberals can do it just as well—and they do, and they can. There are a lot of believers in the Liberal Party.

I know that there are some amongst you who don’t agree with Bill 150, but you dare not say it. You skulk away as fast as you can. You dare not enter into the debate. You hope you will not be asked by the media what your position is, and you hope, where you have unionized labour, that the issue will not come up. And when you meet those workers, you will say, “People say it’s an essential service.

We’re not attacking you, because we know the work you do is so valuable, but we’re just trying to respond to public opinion that says this is an essential service.” You hope that you will never have to answer those questions about why you introduced Bill 150. But if you do, you’ve got a standard answer, because you’re all so ready for it: “His Excellency Mr. Ford has asked us to do it. City council has asked us to do it.”

What else could you do? If they come and ask you, “Do it,” do you say, “No, we can’t”? Do you say, “No, we disagree with you”? No. In a hurry, the new Minister of Labour had the bill prepared. Before he even became a minister he had it all ready to go. Nothing against the labour minister—I like him; he’s a friend of mine. He was ready to go as soon as he got into that position. God bless. Maybe the previous Minister of Labour—I like him too—had it all ready as well, and maybe before he was there the Premier’s office had it all ready to go: “Here you go, Minister. It’s ready for you. Do you agree? Disagree? It doesn’t really matter. Here is the bill.”

Some of you have made the argument that it’s about health: If those unfortunate workers should go on strike, those poor people would have to drive their cars and, oh God, there would be so many more cars on the road and there would be so much more pollution. That’s the argument some of you put forth. But remember, his lordship is the king of cars. He loves cars. During the election, he said, “We are going to end the war on cars.” Remember that?

Why, his excellence loves cars, and he thinks we should have more cars on the road and nothing should impede his right and the right of car owners to be on that road and spill gas if he wants to. That’s what I remember him saying. Why would you worry about his lordship and his love of cars and what those cars would do—except to spew pollution into the air? So that can’t be an argument, can it? It can’t be.

Interjections.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: You guys, you’re too loud. If you want to speak, could you just go out there for a second?

So it can’t be the argument of cars.

What else could it be? Safety? I don’t know.

Some of you put forth the problem of cost: “Good Lord, if they go on strike, the TTC management said it’s 50 million bucks every day.” I really don’t know that it’s 50 million bucks, but that’s the argument you put forth.

By the way, they do not go on strike each and every year. The reason why they go on strike from time to time is because they feel that management isn’t listening and is bargaining hard to make sure that the union demands are never met. When that happens—and it’s a rare thing—they go on strike.

I believe workers are entitled to have that power to express their views and their feelings about what they believe they ought to have. What you’re doing is taking that right away. You are taking the right to strike away on the basis that when they strike, it causes a great deal of pollution because there are more cars and it’s so costly to the poor TTC.

I put to you that after this bill is passed and they go to arbitration, as indeed they will, it will cost the city more money, money they don’t have. Each and every year, as we have witnessed, when it goes to arbitration it will be more costly, and the city doesn’t have the money to deal with those extra costs. But you’re happy, even if that were to happen—and indeed it will—to say, “We’ve done it because the city of Toronto, His Excellency and a majority of the city councillors said, ‘Yes, we want you to pass this bill.’” And then you can say, “We are but the vessel for their wishes. We are only doing what they asked us to do.”

This is an attack on civil servants who work for the city and, in this particular case, work for the TTC. This is an assault on civil servants. I know most of you don’t want to admit this, but that’s what it is. In many of our communities across this province, people express hatred for civil servants. Why? Because most of them have a union and they’re well paid. They almost resent that. And I say to myself, why is it that they resent the fact that people work for government, whether it’s at a board of education, a municipality or the province—and yes, many of them have unions, and yes, many of them are well paid.

Is that a bad thing, that they should belong to a union and that they should be well paid; that yes, they have benefits; and yes, that they have access to a pension at the end of their 30-year career, or less, or more?

It’s as if they resent those benefits and the pension that they have and the good salary they receive. Why do they resent it, many of them? Because they don’t have a pension, as many of the civil servants do. They don’t have access to benefits or these good salaries. So if they can’t have those things that civil servants have, then we should abolish their pension, we should take away their benefits and we should even take away their right to go on strike.

This is the beginning, and I believe some of you Liberals understand that this is the beginning of an assault against civil servants and that soon pensions will be under assault. It’s coming, and some of you know this. Intuitively you know it and you’re nervous about it but you feel, for political reasons, that this is a good thing to do in order to be as popular as the Conservatives, as His Excellency Mr. Ford, by proposing such a bill that they have forced you to put forth. Some of you are worried but you don’t have the temerity to be able to stand up and say, “I disagree,” because there’s solidarity among caucus members.

It’s a worrying trend. We’ve seen it in the United States, we’ve seen it here in Canada, we see it in the industrialized world: Pensions are beginning to be eroded, benefits are beginning to be reduced, an assault on wages has happened for the last 10, 15 years, and we are witnessing a world of part-time work and many who are independent consultants with no pensions and no security. We are witnessing a world where we’re losing our manufacturing jobs, mostly unionized and well-paid. We are witnessing a world—in the industrialized world, at least—where the middle class is slowly disappearing and we’re going to have the majority squeeze down into the lower levels of the income scale.

We’re going to have an upper percentile of 5% or 7% of people earning over $100,000 and the majority earning less than $60,000, and it gets less and less as we go. That’s the world we’re facing. That’s the world that you are helping to create as you assault TTC workers, denying them the right to strike and prohibiting them from striking. It’s the beginning of an assault on many of the rights and benefits that they have gained, earned and fought for for many, many long decades.

The issue here, in part, is about funding. New Democrats in 1990 used to share the operating costs of the TTC 50-50. My friend, the city councillor from Scarborough–Rouge River, would remember that and he would remember that we used to pay 75% of capital costs for the TTC. We recognized then that the TTC is a shared responsibility between the province and the city, and that the Tories ended that arrangement in 1998-99, and the Liberals continue to this day.

Why is it a shared responsibility? Because the TTC cannot be paid for by property tax owners, by people who rent and small business that sustain the city of Toronto. It can’t be done; it can’t. People do not like paying property taxes on the single most important asset they own, which is their home. People have invested in their home, and that is about all most of them have. That’s the only capital they have. They don’t have extra money. When you increase their property taxes some of them go nuts, as some of you know. The member for Scarborough–Rouge River would know that.

In my riding, every time I canvass, all they do is talk about how high their property taxes are, how high their hydro bills are going, their gas bills—

Mr. Jean-Marc Lalonde: They want more services.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: They want more services, yeah.

So we say that the TTC isn’t something the city of Toronto alone is responsible for; it has always been a shared responsibility and we have ended that, just as we have ended the shared responsibility around public housing, which the Tories ended in 1998-99, and the Liberals continue in that tradition. Public housing is not something the city of Toronto is responsible for. Public housing is a shared responsibility, but particularly a provincial responsibility, not a responsibility of property owners alone and small business alone and renters alone.

Interjection.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: What?

Mr. Jean-Marc Lalonde: Point the finger at the other side.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: I did. I pointed the finger clearly at them first, and then pointed my second finger directly at you as the party that has continued with that tradition.

These are costs that the majority of people simply cannot sustain. Property owners cannot bear the burden alone. It’s wrong. Why? Because property taxes are an unfair way to raise money for services that properly belong to the provincial government. Thirty per cent of welfare costs in the city of Toronto are covered by property taxes. Between public housing, welfare costs and child care costs, we are talking about $2.2 billion that city of Toronto property owners, renters and small business are paying, which they cannot afford.

When there are economic stresses on the city of Toronto, what do they do? You’ve got people like Mr. Ford—God bless him—saying “We’ve got to end the gravy train.” Would that we’d end the gravy train for businessmen, millionaires who are on that gravy train and have been on that gravy train for a long, long time. Would that we would start ending the gravy train with the millionaires we have in the city of Toronto and in Ontario. But he started that assault on politicians and on civil servants, and he wasn’t the only one. Mon ami Mike Harris started that in 1995 with the assault on public servants.

It continues with His Worship Mr. Ford, and it continues with the Liberals we have before us today.

Liberals are not strong supporters of labour—never have been. They pretend. They would love to be seen as defenders and supporters of labour. In my experience here in 20 years, they have never done much for labour—ever—not provincially, not federally. But they have a good image with labour. God knows, I just don’t understand. In my view, the majority of Liberals are and have been anti-union for a long, long time, and this is but an excuse to do what His Excellency has asked them to do; that is, to end the ability of TTC workers to strike.

From time to time, Liberals introduce bills such as the one that gave part-time college teachers—remember that half of the college professors are part-time. OPSEU fought the Liberals for two and a half long years, saying it was about time that part-time college workers and other support staff had the right to collective bargaining, and indeed the right to strike. Finally, the Liberals introduced a bill two and a half years ago that would give college teachers the right to collective bargaining.

To this day, they have not been able to exercise that right, because the colleges have said, “Sorry, in spite of the fact that you have collected 10,000 signatures ready to be opened, ready for us to count those votes that would permit you to be a union, no. You need to be certain that every single worker that has ever worked for the college system over the last many years—every single worker, whether they worked for an hour, two hours, five or 10, whoever they are, wherever they’ve been, whether they’re still working for us or not. You’ve got to go and find them and you’ve got to ask them whether they want to be able to join the union.”

They virtually made it impossible for the college system, for OPSEU, the part-time workers and the support staff to ever find these people and get the 30%—the number required—to count those ballots and to get a count.

You understand: You introduce a bill that makes it appear like you support the college workers and the support staff, and in the end, there’s no collective bargaining. But on paper, you appear as a government that supports the right of these workers to become a union. It’s just a paper right; that’s all it is.

I am appealing to some of the Liberal members to speak up. I appeal to the sense of justice that some of you have. I keep on making that appeal with so many different bills, and not one ever dares to vote against the government. But one continues to appeal to those who, I think, have a heart by way of issues of social justice, issues that you probably believe in. I suspect a lot of you think it’s okay to have the right to strike. If some of you believe that, it would be nice to hear it from time to time.

I appeal to those watching this political program, because often I find some of the people who watch this political forum say that they like my speeches. Then I say, “Yes, but do you support the NDP?” And they say, “Well, we like your speeches, and we like what you say, but….” If some of you like our speeches and you like what we’re saying, this type of bill tips the balance in a very negative direction, in a very destructive direction.

It leads us into that train wreck. It leads us into that arena where more and more people are part-time. It leads us into that arena where more and more workers haven’t received a wage increase for 10 or 15 years. It leads us into the arena where 60% or 70% of the workers are in the service sector, the retail sector where the wages are $10, $11 or $12 an hour.

It leads us into that arena where more and more seniors don’t have the care that they deserve because we don’t have the money because we’re giving it away to corporations. We’re cutting income tax, and we’re giving away the money. We don’t have any money left to take care of our seniors.

It leads into that world where we’re losing our pensions. Understand, we don’t have a pension either because Mike Harris took care of that. But it is a direction the world is moving in, where the corporations are saying, “We can’t afford to have pensions.” What does it mean when the corporate world says we can’t afford to have the defined benefit pensions we used to have? What does it mean?

It means that we will no longer be able to take care of ourselves in our retirement age. It means the majority of people—and right now 65% of people have to rely on the CPP and old age security. If you qualify, you get approximately $15,000 a year to survive as a pensioner. In my view, in this country, with $15,000 you’re dirt poor, and most of you know it. Sixty-five percent, 70% of people do not have a private pension.

Some of the wealthier ones who don’t have access to a defined benefit package have their own pension by way of RRSPs, and God bless you, those who have money to do that. If you have a million bucks put away in an RRSP, assuming you’re wealthy enough to max out with your $22,000 a year, God bless you. If you’ve got that kind money at the end of 30 years, you will have a decent pension.

But that means you’re probably one of those lucky few wealthy enough to be able to put $22,000 away in RRSPs. The majority of workers, who are working part-time, working in the retail sector, are only earning about $20,000, $25,000, $30,000, $35,000, $40,000 a year. They can’t put aside RRSP dollars to protect themselves from a very uncertain future; they can’t do that.

That means the majority are living a precarious existence as they get closer to their senior years. It means that, should they have an unfortunate and terrible disease, such as Alzheimer’s, that my father had, without the benefit of money to take care of themselves, and if they don’t have children who can take care of them, where do they go if there’s no space for them in the long-term-care facilities? Where do they go if they can’t afford to put them in a long-term-care facility? Where do they go?

And even if they could afford to put them in a long-term-care facility, many of us are so profoundly worried about getting in there, because we don’t know the kind of care we’re going to get because there are not enough nurses to take care of us.

God, have I heard horror stories. I’ve seen it through my own experience with my own father. I’ve seen it, heard it from so many who are so profoundly worried about sending their parents to a long-term-care facility.

If you don’t have the money, what do you do when you become a senior? It’s a precarious life. We are all heading to that tragic senior’s life that doesn’t look pretty to me. We are all heading there, except for the few who happen to be wealthy enough to be able to take care of themselves in the event that they have such horrible diseases like my father’s, Alzheimer’s.

The future looks bleak, my friends; the future looks very bleak. If we base it on the experience of the present, 10 years from now, it’s going to be a whole lot worse, when we have more and more seniors reaching that state that, God, I am ever raging against. That’s what we’re heading to. That’s what my fear is: My fear is that we are heading into a society of the haves and the have-nots, the wealthy and the not-so-wealthy—the perpetually permanent part-time workers and people who don’t have pensions anymore. It’s an ugly society that, I appeal to you, those of you watching, we have to rage against.

While Bill 150 appears to be harmless to you—because you think that you’re doing the right thing by attacking TTC workers—you are the not helping yourselves. You are collaborating in the diminishment of workers’ rights. There couldn’t be a worse time for union workers. There couldn’t be a worse time for workers in general. There couldn’t be, and it’s going to get worse. There could not be a better time to have unionized labour defending the rights of men and women who work in those workplaces.

In a climate where we are killing our pensions, in a climate where we are suppressing wages, in a climate where we are told that we can no longer afford certain services we used to have, in a climate where our educational system is eroding, in a climate where we don’t have enough money to do an IPRC—an identification, placement and review committee—to be able to assess the needs of those kids and make sure they get the attention they deserve, in a climate where parents are privately fundraising to the tune of $600 million a year for services for their kids, which means that poor kids, poor families, who can’t do that are not going to get those programs—in a climate like that, where our health care system is eroding and our seniors are not getting the support, in that environment, we need to support each other.

We need to support unions that have fought for health and safety, unions that have fought for better wages, unions that have fought for vision care, unions that have fought for pensions and the right of men and women to live a decent life in that environment. We need them more than ever. This is an assault on those workers, and that is only the beginning.

So many good Liberals are being dragged into it. It’s sad, pitifully sad, that so many good men and women in the Liberal Party are just being sucked into His Worship’s demand that you do this as quickly as possible and with haste. That’s why you’ve introduced this motion that I am attacking today. That’s why we as New Democrats are attacking Bill 150: because it’s an assault on workers. We’ll continue to fight it as long as we can.

Debate deemed adjourned.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Pursuant to standing order 8, this House is in recess until 10:30 of the clock.

The House recessed from 1015 to 1030.

WEARING OF RIBBONS

Hon. Gerry Phillips: I believe we have unanimous consent that all members be permitted to wear their purple ribbons in recognition of Epilepsy Ontario and Epilepsy Cure Initiative.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Agreed? Agreed.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Mr. Steve Clark: On behalf of my Leeds–Grenville page, Tyler Millson from North Grenville, I’d like to introduce his dad, Bart; Bart’s sister Valerie Millson-Jansen; her husband, Stephen; and their children, Colin and Ellen. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: Please join me in welcoming, in the west members’ gallery, page Brittany McCorriston’s parents, from my riding: Brian and Susan McCorriston.

Mr. Robert Bailey: I’d like to welcome to Queen’s Park today John Phair, a councillor from the township of Enniskillen, attending the Ontario Good Roads Association and ROMA conference.

Hon. Laurel C. Broten: I’d like to welcome some participants who are here today for Epilepsy Action Day: Margaret Maye, the president and founder of the Epilepsy Cure Initiative; Dr. McIntyre Burnham, or Mac Burnham, from the Epilepsy Ontario executive; Gary Neumann of the Epilepsy Cure Initiative; Thomas Drag of the Epilepsy Cure Initiative; and Peter Grzywacz. All of them are here today for Epilepsy Action Day. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: I would like to introduce Eric Duncan, one of Ontario’s youngest mayors, at the age of 23, from Stormont–Dundas–South Glengarry. He’s a great friend to eastern Ontario.

Mr. Bruce Crozier: I’d like the members of the Legislature to join me in welcoming the mother of page Madeline, Nancy Diab from the great town of LaSalle.

Mr. Jim Wilson: I’d like to welcome the member for Ottawa South to the chamber today.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I would just say to the member from Simcoe–Grey that that is not helpful. The Speaker can make arrangements that the member from Simcoe–Grey not be in the chamber today.

I would like to take this opportunity, on behalf of page Holly Rose Lorenzon and the MPP for Vaughan, to welcome her mother, Josie Lorenzon, and her father, Renato Lorenzon, to the Legislature today. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

On behalf of page Simon Cook and the member for Oakville, I’d like to welcome Simon’s family, his teacher Mr. Minkhorst and his grade 8 class to Queen’s Park today. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

ORAL QUESTIONS

HYDRO CHARGES

Mr. Tim Hudak: My question is for the Premier. The Ontario government is collecting a debt retirement charge on each and every hydro bill that an Ontario family pays. I believe that respect for Ontario families means being transparent and telling them exactly where that money is going.

In November, Premier, the McGuinty Liberals voted down a PC motion that would reveal how much longer families will be paying that debt and how much debt remains to be paid. Premier, why did you vote against making that basic information public to Ontario families?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I’m pleased to take the question.

I want to remind my honourable colleague about the origins of this particular debt retirement charge. The previous PC government’s failed privatization attempt at Ontario Hydro in 1999 left a stranded debt of $20 billion on the books, and they stuck families with the bill. That’s the origin of the debt retirement charge. The PC government then added $1 billion more to the stranded debt and the debt retirement charge on families’ hydro bills. I think it’s important to understand the very origins of that particular charge.

In the supplementaries, I know that my honourable colleague the Minister of Finance is going to want to further enlighten my colleague.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Tim Hudak: Premier, I think you know that you’re conveniently leaving out a number of facts in that response, to use parliamentary language, Speaker. You know that that stranded debt goes back all the way to the 1980s, including the Liberal Peterson government overruns on nuclear.

But, Premier, back to the question: The residual stranded debt was set at $7.8 billion. It was asked that Ontario families would pay that through their hydro bills, $7.8 billion, and to date they’ve paid $7.8 billion. Despite that, your government is saying it may stay on the bills till as late as 2018. It’s hard to take the Premier at his word when he doesn’t get the facts.

Why won’t you do the right thing, call in a forensic auditor, and tell us where all that money went to?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Finance.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: The Auditor General has correctly pointed out that, from the time that party implemented the debt retirement charge to the time it left office, not only did they put it on people’s bills, they didn’t use it to pay down the debt—four long, painful years of ignoring the reality.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock.

Honourable members, we have a number of guests who are joining us today who would like to hear both—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member from Halton, when the Speaker is speaking, I would very much appreciate it if you would listen, because when you’re speaking, you can’t hear what I’m saying.

We do have a number of guests who are here. They do want to hear the questions, and they want to hear the answers. I would just ask that the honourable members be respectful of the guests who are visiting.

Minister.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Not only did they not use—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member from Renfrew, I just sat down, and you started to interject. I’ve tried to be patient with all members of the House, and I would just ask that you be cognizant of the importance of listening as well. Thank you.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Not only did they not use the funds to pay down the debt, they added an additional $1 billion to the stranded debt. Every year since we’ve taken office, we’ve put $1 billion down against that stranded debt. And yes, we can report—and the Auditor General looks every year at the books, not only of the province but of the Ontario Electricity Financial Corp. The debt retirement charge will come off people’s bills sometime between 2015 and 2018. It depends on a number of factors, including the interest rate.

What I can tell the members opposite and tell the people of Ontario is that again this year, this government will pay more than $1 billion dollars off that debt, instead of adding money to the debt, like that leader and his party did for the first four years they levied that charge.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary.

Mr. Tim Hudak: With all due respect, Premier and finance minister, we want a straight answer. Why don’t you just open the books and let Ontario families see exactly where that money has gone? See, I don’t think you understand: Every Ontario family is paying $84 a year towards the debt retirement charge. That’s what it means for an average Ontario family. And then you threw the HST on top of that to take even more money out of their pockets. But you won’t tell them where the money is going, and now you’re saying it could be as late as 2018.

Basically, Premier, you’re turning a temporary debt retirement charge into a permanent tax grab on the backs of Ontario families. Do the right thing, call in a forensic auditor, and let’s see what you did with all that money.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: The Auditor General of Ontario has signed off on the books every year—every year. And what do we know? That party that put the debt retirement charge on people’s bills, not only did they not use it the first four years, they added to the debt.

I look forward to debating this issue with the people of Ontario. The member for Simcoe–Grey wants to try to pretend that he didn’t bungle the energy file, which he did. It’s because of you there’s a debt retirement charge. It’s because of their inability to apply the money where it should have been that it grew under their watch. We’re paying it down each and every year. The auditor signs off on it. The books are open and clear. They were a failure in energy policy. We’re cleaning up the mess.

HYDRO CHARGES

Mr. Tim Hudak: I’ll try the Premier again. Annual reports of the Ontario Electricity Financial Corp. do not report the balance of the residual stranded debt. The minister says the Auditor General signed off on those books. The books are absent. They say nothing about how much debt is there or when it will be paid off. We asked exactly when this will be paid off. They say—now, the minister finally admits maybe as late as 2018.

Premier, this is what it means for average folks. It’s like getting a credit card bill every month and asking to pay off the interest with no idea how much principle remains. That is just plain wrong, and it is absolutely showing no respect for the families who are getting stuck with the bills.

Why won’t you do the right thing? Let’s get the facts on the table. Call in a forensic audit and tell families straight to their face where the money went and how much more is to go.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Finance.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I’ll refer the member opposite to the public accounts of Ontario and remind him again that their party did in fact put the debt retirement charge on people’s bills.

Just to remind people: They broke up the old Ontario Hydro. They wanted to sell off Hydro One and OPG. What they did was took all the debt off of their balance sheets; that is, they took the debt and said to the people of Ontario, “You’re going to pay off this debt while we sell these assets to our friends.” You know what? The people of Ontario put an end to that.

What did they do when they put on the debt retirement charge? They didn’t apply a single penny of the money raised to the debt for the first four years. We have put more than a billion dollars down each and every year, audited. The balances are there—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member for Simcoe–Grey, your leader is trying to ask a question, and you are interrupting your own leader.

Mr. Tim Hudak: I will express my disappointment directly to the Premier of the province that he’s not answering these very straightforward and basic questions today. Instead, he’s asking his finance minister to try to create a fog around the issue, to talk about anything but the essential question.

Families pay this on each and every bill and you come up with all kinds of cover stories. Your member for Northumberland–Quinte West says now the stranded debt is $12 billion. The member from Brant threw out a figure saying it was $19 billion. Premier, for goodness sake, you can’t even get your cover stories straight.

Let’s get the facts. Let’s get it on the table. Will you show respect to families who pay the bills? Call in a forensic audit. Let’s see where that money went.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: The numbers that the Leader of the Opposition puts out on this issue—and the member for Simcoe–Grey—are simply wrong. They’re designed to confuse people. They’re designed to hide the fact that not only did they levy the debt retirement charge, they didn’t use one penny of it for the first four years to pay down the debt. In that sense, had they used that money appropriately, maybe it would be paid off sooner.

This government, in each budget that’s audited by the Auditor General, has paid down more than a billion dollars. The number is coming down each and every year. It’s audited by the Auditor General. Their voodoo numbers are just wrong. The people of Ontario remember what they did to hydro. They remember that they wasted that money and didn’t—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Final supplementary.

Mr. Tim Hudak: I’ll try back to the Premier once again. Maybe I’ll get two out of six questions answered and bat .333 today.

Premier, you famously said last week about Ontario families that, “We’re just kind of growing up a little bit as Ontarians.” I wonder if Premier Dad thinks we’re old enough to find out exactly how much stranded debt is remaining and where the money went. Will you treat the families who pay the bills as adults?

With all due respect, you’re trying to obscure this issue. Where did the money go? How much is left? Will you do the right thing and quit changing your cover stories? I don’t know what you’re trying to hide. Put the facts on the table. Call in a forensic audit today.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I have great respect for the Auditor General of Ontario, who looks at these numbers every year. I have great respect for an Auditor General who has reported in each and every year that the—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): There are a number of members—if they want to be set free from this place, the Speaker can certainly arrange that.

Minister?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: They have great confidence in the Auditor General. They don’t have confidence in the Leader of the Opposition because they know that that leader and his party put—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): That took, I think, maybe 15 seconds.

Minister?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: They don’t have confidence in the Leader of the Opposition because they know it was his party that put this charge on their bills. Then, for the first few years, they didn’t even pay down the debt with the money. They put a hidden cap on price.

We’re doing the right thing. We’re paying down more than a billion a year. It will be paid down, off of people’s bills, sometime between 2015 and 2018. That’s the honest answer—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

GASOLINE PRICES

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is to the Premier. I asked the Minister of Energy on Monday what happened to the all-party committee that was tasked to look at gasoline prices over five years ago. He didn’t have an answer for me then. My question to the Premier is, does he have an answer today?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I welcome the question. My friends opposite will know that I have been on the road, speaking to many Ontarians, and gasoline prices are a pressing issue for families and businesses alike. I was in northern Ontario yesterday, and that’s a real and ongoing concern there.

I think more and more Ontarians are coming to understand that, as a result of developments in the Middle East at this point in time, there is some real insecurity associated with the future supply of oil and gas, and that’s driving up the costs.

I noticed with interest this morning on CNN—I want to quote from what they said: “The national average price for a gallon of regular gasoline rose 1.2 cents Wednesday ... according to a daily survey from motorist group AAA. Prices have jumped 23.6 cents over the past eight days.” This is a global phenomenon.

We are doing what we can here in Ontario—I’ll speak about that in the supplementary—to help out our families.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Last night, gas prices shot up another three cents a litre in Toronto. In Sioux Lookout, some drivers are paying $1.31 a litre today.

Why is the Premier willing to regulate the price of beer but unwilling to do anything at all about the price of gasoline?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I gather that my honourable colleague, as the leader of the NDP, is proposing that we regulate gas prices in Ontario. That is something that they actually looked at in government. It’s something that they looked at in government; it’s something that we’ve looked at in government. We’ve all rejected it, and I’ll tell you why: Because the practical experience on the ground has been that where you regulate, prices overall tend to be higher. It tends to cost more for gasoline for families and businesses alike in those jurisdictions where you regulate your gas prices. That’s why we are looking at other ways to help our families.

Ninety-three percent of Ontarians have received a permanent income tax cut. Typical Ontario families are getting a tax cut of $355 this year and every year going forward. Those are real, meaningful, practical ways that we can help out families with their household expenses.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: The Premier isn’t just ignoring the problem; he’s making it worse by slapping the HST on gasoline prices and daily essentials like home heating. The Premier ignored families and their real concerns about making ends meet. Did the McGuinty Liberals really even consider, when they hit families with their unfair HST tax, that gas prices might start climbing?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I want to draw my honourable colleague’s attention once again to the clean energy benefit. There was advice that we received from the NDP, saying that we should reduce the cost of our electricity bills by 8%. We considered that and we said that was inadequate. We took it two points higher. We’re cutting our electricity bills by 10%, and my colleague has yet to acknowledge that.

The fact is, we are very sensitive to household expenses and the pressures they put on moms and dads. That’s why we put forward things like our clean energy benefit, taking 10% off the bills for the next five years; our income tax cut of $355 for the average Ontario household; and the children’s activity tax credit—$50 per child. As I say, those are real and practical ways that we’re helping families manage their household expenses.

TAXATION

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My next question is also to the Premier. Yesterday, the minister claimed that the HST would protect health care and improve education. Government documents, in fact, confirm that the HST will take $6.8 billion out of family budgets. How much of that money will Ontario’s corporate sector be receiving in tax giveaways?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Finance.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Our overall tax cuts will save 93% of Ontarians money overall.

The leader of the third party is trying to use documents that we were happy to release to the public by selecting numbers that are incomplete and, in fact, paint an inaccurate and incomplete picture.

The tax cuts we’ve provided and the various tax credits we have provided help ensure that, particularly, people of more modest means will actually come out ahead overall. What this tax plan for jobs and growth does is, it will help create some 600,000 jobs in Ontario over the next 10 years. This is an important policy that we strongly believe will not only lower taxes for most Ontarians but will create jobs and growth in the future for our children and their children.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Government memos obtained through freedom of information show very clearly where the money is going: The government will collect $6.8 billion worth of new sales taxes from cash-strapped families and hand out $6.8 billion in corporate tax giveaways.

Does the Premier know about some kind of magical math that the rest of us don’t?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: The leader of the third party conveniently ignores a number of things. I would refer her to the 2009 budget, the 2010 budget and the 2011 budget, which will be coming out shortly.

First of all, off of that money will come the most generous sales tax credit in the country for all Ontarians of modest means. I would remind her of the energy tax credits for the north, particularly for individuals and large corporate interests, to ensure that they remain competitive. She also forgot to mention the personal tax cuts; Ontario now has the lowest tax rate on the first $37,000 of income. That’s why people like Hugh Mackenzie and other anti-poverty activists have embraced our agenda—our agenda for jobs and growth—and reject this sleight of hand and incomplete and inaccurate assessment—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I’d just ask the honourable member to withdraw the comment that he just made.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I withdraw the comment.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Households are getting hit hard with spiking gas prices, sky-high electricity costs, and heaven help them if they have a loved one who needs long-term care in this province. But the Bank of Montreal saw their profits rise by 57%, to $2.8 billion a year. Their CEO, Bill Downe, got a $2-million raise. Oil giant Shell raked in $90 billion.

Why do families that pay for gasoline have to pay more while the people making record profits still get a tax break?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: It’s this simple: Alberta, British Columbia and other Canadian provinces have lower corporate taxes than Ontario. If we do not address this question, the leader of the third party’s policy will be a great job creator for Alberta, for Saskatchewan, for British Columbia, for Michigan, for Indiana, for Illinois—the list goes on.

These are difficult choices, and I respect the fact that Jack Layton and the federal NDP are now taking corporate taxes off the agenda in Ottawa, because it is the right thing to do.

She’s tripping over her own rhetoric. Her own staff said a couple of months ago that these tax cuts won’t help businesses in Ontario because they’re not making money.

This will help the auto sector and the forestry sector. It’s about jobs and a better future for our children.

ELECTRICITY INFRASTRUCTURE

Mr. John Yakabuski: My question is for the Minister of Energy. On Monday, Minister, you said the towers being held hostage at Caledonia were not part of the plan to transmit hydro from Big Becky, but the website of your own government agency says it is. Yesterday you got caught and were forced to admit that it was part of the plan all along. Then you dodged questions over whether these towers were critical to the Big Becky project.

Either you don’t understand your file, or you attempted to mislead this House. Which one is it?

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I ask the honourable member to withdraw the comment he just made.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Withdrawn.

Hon. Brad Duguid: In answer to that question, the member has no idea what he’s talking about. Hydro One stopped work on the Niagara transmission reinforcement project in 2006 in order to remove any possible obstacle to a resolution of that process. The line being constructed is to strengthen our interconnection with the state of New York at Niagara Falls, not to transmit power from the Niagara Tunnel. At present, this situation does not impact reliability in that area or anywhere else in southern Ontario.

We’ll continue to work with Six Nations and the surrounding communities at building stronger partnerships that can lead to peace and reconciliation in that community. The PC approach clearly is to try to stir things up in that community. It’s irresponsible. It indicates they’ve learned nothing from the shame that their party brought to the people of this province as a result of Ipperwash.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. John Yakabuski: Minister, you have completely bungled your own file. From the microFIT fiasco to your smart meter tax machines to your offshore wind farm backtrack, Ontario families are paying for your incompetence. The billion-dollar Big Becky project is projected to cost another $600 million, and you’ve spent $116 million to build transmission lines for it. Now you’re saying you don’t even know if the power Big Becky produces will go anywhere because the towers are being held hostage in Caledonia.

The Premier, in a scrum today, unbelievably said this is the first he’s ever heard of that problem. Can you believe it? Is this another one of your billion-dollar boondoggles that will stick Ontario families with the bill?

Hon. Brad Duguid: I find the PCs’ continual efforts to stir things up in Caledonia put on display, frankly, their true lack of moral fibre. This party left our transmission and distribution systems in a state of decay—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock. The member from Renfrew is about to jump up on a point of order. I can honestly tell you that because of the interjections that were taking place I did not hear a—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I don’t need help from the member from Nepean.

I didn’t hear a comment because I could not hear because of the noise. Minister, if you said something that was of a nature that caused some disruption in the House, I would just ask that you withdraw it, please.

Hon. Brad Duguid: I didn’t think it was offensive, but if it offended anybody I withdraw it. I’m happy to withdraw it.

That party left our transmission distribution system in a state of decay. They opposed our efforts to invest $7 billion since 2003 and to upgrade 5,000 kilometres of transmission line. They oppose our efforts to build a line from Bruce to Milton. They oppose our plans to invest in the Pickle Lake line, the east-west tie, and strengthen the southwestern Ontario grid.

It’s rather interesting, though, that there’s only one transmission line in the entire province that party wants us to move on quicker, and it just happens to be a line that runs through a sensitive area in dispute with Six Nations—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

DISCLOSURE OF TOXINS

Mr. Gilles Bisson: My question is to the Minister of Natural Resources. Minister, you will know—because the Toronto Star, myself and others have raised the issue—about the fiasco over the use of Agent Orange over the past couple of weeks. Your response up to date has been a fairly simple one: that you will put in place, as you call it, a “herbicide spraying project team” in order to investigate what happened.

My question to you is simply this: Why would you put the MNR in charge of collecting the information related to the use of Agent Orange when it was this very ministry that not only used Agent Orange but, quite frankly, kept their mouth shut when they found out it was harmful to the public?

Hon. Linda Jeffrey: I’m very pleased to answer another question on this issue in the House. Again, I want to reiterate our great concern over this issue. Since learning about it, as I stated earlier, I’ve been committed to obtaining all the facts and sharing the information. Certainly, when the individual from Tembec first approached us, he gave us some very thoughtful recommendations, and I appreciate his coming forward.

We have two priorities in our government. First of all, it’s to find and identify those who were exposed back in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s and possibly the 1980s, and also to work with health experts to understand fully the impact this herb spray may have on human health.

I think we were the initial ministry that was contacted and I certainly am working with my ministry officials and everyone else within the other ministries to collect that information. I think it is important for us to share and be accountable and transparent about the information we receive with the public of Ontario. Their health is on the line. We understand that.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Minister, I don’t doubt for a second that you’re concerned; so am I; so is every Ontarian. That is not the issue. The issue is: Why would we put the very ministry in charge of the investigation when they are the ones, quite frankly, that withheld the information from the public in the late 1970s and early 1980s?

So I ask you again: Why was this the government’s response? Why did you put the very ministry that was the culprit in charge of the investigation?

Hon. Linda Jeffrey: We have created an independent fact-finding panel and they’ll be able to help us collect that information. I’ve written to the federal Minister of Health and asked for their involvement in this. As well, my deputy, I think yesterday, sent out a letter to all the territories and provinces asking for information and to share it.

I think there’s only one thing you can do at this point: collect information, share it publicly, and not be worried about who did what, but collect that information. This is an issue that has spanned decades. We need to make sure that we work with Health Canada and other provinces to share that information. And certainly the federal government has a responsibility. They regulated the use of herbicides across this country, and this particular herbicide was registered by the pesticides directorate of Agriculture Canada. The federal department was responsible for registering those pesticides. We’re going to work—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question?

HOSPITAL SERVICES

Mr. Jim Brownell: My question is to the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care. On Friday, February 11, the members opposite from Nepean–Carleton and Whitby–Oshawa appeared at the Winchester District Memorial Hospital in my riding of Stormont–Dundas–South Glengarry for a rally to save the hospital’s emergency department. Their claim was that it was this government’s intention to reduce hours and services in the emergency department at that hospital.

I know of the good work that we’ve done in the past seven years for Winchester and for the high-quality health care that we have here in Ontario, and I know that we want to have health care in hospitals close to home, so this concerned me very much. It concerned my constituents. It concerned my mother; she’s in that hospital right now.

I would appreciate it if the minister could inform my constituents of the status of Winchester’s emergency department and this government’s plans for it.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Thank you to the member for the question. Let me be clear: The Champlain LHIN has absolutely no plans to reduce hours at or close the emergency room at Winchester District Memorial Hospital.

This is exactly the kind—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock. Members will please come to order.

Minister.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: This is exactly the kind of bizarre, drive-by smear campaign that the opposition has chosen as their tactic. Ontarians have become accustomed to this, and it is bizarre. They are fearmongering and they are seeking to undermine people’s confidence in our health care system.

On this side of the House we are investing in the Winchester hospital. We’ve invested $45 million to improve the hospital, including improvements to the emergency department.

Let’s not forget, the PCs—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Jim Brownell: Thank you, Minister, for those reassuring words. I want to say that I know what has happened there at the hospital. I know of the consultation process that has gone on at that hospital. I attended the consultation process—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member from Nepean can take—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The Minister of Consumer Services.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member from Nepean can take this as a final warning: One more outburst and I’ll have no choice but to name her.

Please continue.

Mr. Jim Brownell: It concerns me that this announcement was made by the members opposite without any regard or concern for the—people worried for days about this situation. If they really wanted a photo op, they could have travelled down to Cornwall and stood outside Cornwall’s general hospital that they closed. They closed that hospital.

I have advocated for Winchester hospital, and I would like the minister to inform this House of the investments that have been made by the—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Minister?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Let me share a quote from the Cornwall Standard Freeholder from February 17 on this issue:

“Overlooked was the fact that Jim Brownell, who represents Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry, has been working diligently behind the scenes to make sure the hospital’s ER’s status quo is maintained.

“The Winchester hospital, as with Cornwall and Alexandria hospitals, has no bigger supporter than Brownell who has played a major role in securing funds for health care in his riding.”

The opposition has a plan to silence the local voice when it comes to health care. They want to make all decisions behind closed doors here at Queen’s Park. The people of Ontario want a local voice.

I want to congratulate the member. He has done an outstanding job for his constituents.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock.

New question.

WIND TURBINES

Mrs. Julia Munro: My question is to the Minister of Consumer Services. Ontario families purchased rotor components, generators, concrete, steel towers and blades in good faith. It’s a shame that they were lured into the Premier’s energy experiment in the first place. It is an outright lack of respect for Kingston families who made these consumer purchases and then were left unprotected from the Premier’s sudden backtrack on offshore wind turbines.

Do you agree with Mayor Mark Gerretsen that the Premier’s backtrack on his energy experiment in your riding was “purely political”?

Hon. John Gerretsen: I think the Minister of Energy is in a much better position to answer this question.

Hon. Brad Duguid: We listened very carefully to that member’s leader yesterday when he unequivocally said that the Green Energy Act is going to be pretty much cancelled and that these contracts won’t continue. What that does is it verifies what the member for Simcoe–Grey said earlier this month: “We’re not going to sign any more of these” feed-in tariff “contracts. Those days will be gone.” Then he made a threat: “Whoever gets a contract now, enjoy it while you have it.”

That’s unmitigated arrogance. It shows a total disrespect for the farmers who are working hard and trying to contribute to building our clean energy economy.

They want to cancel this program altogether; we’re making it work. We’re working with thousands of Ontario farmers to give them an opportunity to participate.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mrs. Julia Munro: I can appreciate that now the Minister of Consumer Services is in a conflict of interest. After all, he was the Minister of the Environment in January 2008 when the McGuinty government cleared the way for offshore wind turbines. Then, the Premier’s seat-saver program kicked into gear and executed what Mayor Mark Gerretsen calls a “purely political” backtrack.

Now the Kingston Economic Development Corp. is going around saying that the backtrack is merely a suspension and to expect wind projects to come back online. Who told them the industrial wind turbine experiment will go ahead after the election: the Premier, the energy minister or you?

Hon. Brad Duguid: Once again, that party gets up and has a variety of opinions about the efforts that we’re making to clean up the energy mess that they left behind. But what their leader did not say yesterday was that—he did not tell the thousands of clean energy workers across this province why he wants to kill their jobs. What he’s planning to do, in wiping out the efforts we’ve made to build a clean energy economy, is kill thousands of jobs and scare off billions of dollars of investments. These are real workers holding good jobs, with real families, who want to keep working.

I’ve met those workers face to face in places like Cambridge, Burlington, Fort Erie, Tillsonburg, Newmarket; the list goes on and on, and it continues to grow every day. Those workers deserve to know where that member stands and where her party stands. Are they going to kill those thousands of jobs that were—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

NUCLEAR ENERGY

Mr. Peter Tabuns: My question is to the Premier. Since 1999, each Ontario household has paid thousands of dollars servicing Ontario Hydro’s stranded debt, most of which is the result of massive cost overruns at nuclear plants built in Ontario. Now your government is embarking on a new round of costly nuclear projects. What is the Premier doing to protect Ontarians from having to pay off tens of billions of dollars in additional debt from its new nuclear project?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Energy.

Hon. Brad Duguid: We are looking to invest in refurbishing our nuclear units. Indeed, we’re eagerly awaiting the federal government to get through their AECL process so that we can purchase two additional new units, because nuclear makes up half of our baseload capacity. It’s an absolutely critical part of ensuring that we have a reliable source of power.

I would encourage the member to take a look at his own NDP energy policy. Maybe they might want to think about the importance of nuclear in ensuring that we do have a reliable-source-of-energy policy. We’ve said it before: The NDP has not come forward with any kind of an energy plan. We do know one thing: Nuclear is not going to be in it; other sources of energy are not likely going to be in it. The NDP nuclear plan stands for “no darned power” plan.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: I am surprised that the Premier didn’t answer this. The minister said that, clearly, it’s a blank cheque for the nuclear industry. Whatever they want, he’s going to give; it’s very clear.

My question: A new report from the Ontario Clean Air Alliance indicates that OPG—Ontario Power Generation—is asking the Ontario government to guarantee repayment of money it borrows to rebuild the Darlington nuclear plant. Based on past nuclear cost overruns, the alliance says that Ontarians should expect cost overruns of $21 billion or more. Will the Premier protect Ontarians from future debt charges and taxes by telling OPG that the Ontario government will not pay a single penny of the debt or cost overruns from the Darlington refurbishment?

Hon. Brad Duguid: The member’s leader gets up day after day and talks about the importance of jobs across this province. There are 70,000 jobs in the nuclear industry. The vast majority of those jobs are in Ontario. It’s very clear that the NDP does not care about those 70,000 workers. Well, we do. That’s why we may be the one government left in this country that—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I’ve been tolerant with the member from Renfrew; final warning for the member from Renfrew.

Minister?

Hon. Brad Duguid: We may well be the one government left in this country that is standing up for those 70,000 workers. We will not allow that nuclear industry to be the next Avro Arrow of the federal government. We’re going to stand up for those workers. We’re going to stand up for this very important industry. It’s the backbone of our energy system. It’s a very important part of our economy. You may not recognize it. You may not care about those 70,000 workers and their families—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

GREENBELT

Mr. Jeff Leal: My question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Today marks the sixth anniversary of Ontario’s greenbelt, a working countryside that arches its way around the greater Golden Horseshoe and includes the southern part of my riding in Peterborough.

Nine out of 10 Ontarians support the greenbelt, which is internationally recognized as a model for the world. These supporters recognize the greenbelt’s benefits as a source of local healthy food, recreation and tourism opportunities, not to mention the protection it affords to our watersheds, stream and rivers. They also recognize its importance to future generations.

Through you to the minister, could the minister please clarify for the House the importance of the greenbelt and what it means to Ontario’s future?

Hon. Rick Bartolucci: Today, we do celebrate. We celebrate the greenbelt: 1.8 million acres of protected countryside, roughly the size of Prince Edward Island. Our government is safeguarding it for future generations, and you’re right: nine out of 10 Ontarians support this initiative.

The official opposition has signalled that it’s open to the idea of getting rid of it, and if past behaviour is a predictor of future behaviour, then I must point out that the PC environment critic voted against it, the PC natural resources critic voted against it, the PC tourism critic voted against it, the PC agriculture critic voted against it, and the leader of the official opposition voted against it. Shame.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Jeff Leal: It’s unbelievable that the official opposition, a party where several members have a rural background, would vote against this important measure.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Member from Oxford. Member from Durham.

Please continue.

Mr. Jeff Leal: This government is protecting land so that farmers and our future generations can continue to benefit. The greenbelt is a busy place for farming, vine lands and recreation.

My supplementary is again to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. My constituents understand the importance of preserving green space, but I’d like to know what exactly the greenbelt provides them with. Mr. Speaker, through you to the minister: Could the minister please outline to this House what exactly protecting such a valuable green space accomplishes?

Hon. Rick Bartolucci: The vast majority of the greenbelt is farmland. In fact, almost half of our fruit farms and one fifth of our vegetable farms are located in the greenbelt. The greenbelt also protects the headwaters of all major watersheds in the western GTA. It provides numerous recreation and tourism opportunities and is the location of numerous historical landmarks, fairs, festivals, culinary tours and wineries.

What’s shocking is that the leader of the official opposition wants to get rid of this. His party voted against it. The Leader of the Opposition would rather see a Niagara mid-peninsula highway than a protected green space. The PC leader wants to pave over the riding of Burlington even though his caucus colleagues the members from Burlington and Halton are against it. We will protect the greenbelt.

RENEWABLE ENERGY

Mr. Peter Shurman: My question is for the Minister of Energy. This week, Verso Economics released a study saying that for every renewable energy job created in the UK, 3.7 other jobs are lost. In Ontario, that means that if you reach your target of renewable energy jobs, Ontario will actually lose another 185,000 jobs. This confirms once again what we in the Ontario PC caucus have been saying all along. How much more evidence do you need that your expensive energy experiments are hurting Ontario families?

Hon. Brad Duguid: Once again, the PCs start quoting reports that have been very much discredited in the past and will continue to be. The fact is, when it comes to jobs, his leader made it very clear yesterday that he’s not going to stand up for the thousands of Ontarians who are working in our clean energy economy; that what he is planning to do—

Interjection.

Hon. Laurel C. Broten: Goodbye.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): That’s not helpful. I’m going to warn the Minister of Children and Youth Services for that. That’s not helpful.

As well, I had warned the member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke, and I do have to name John Yakabuski, the member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke.

Mr. Yakabuski was escorted from the chamber.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Minister of Health, a warning to you as well too. It’s not helpful—or maybe it was the Minister of Economic Development. I’m warning you both.

Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Shurman: Minister, the only discredit goes to you. This is just the latest in a long list of studies that prove what we have been saying. A Spanish study says that every renewable job costs 2.2 jobs; an Italian study says that every renewable jobs costs 6.9 jobs; and this latest Verso Economics study says that every renewable jobs costs 3.7 jobs. Why should anyone believe your phony job creation numbers when everybody else says it doesn’t work?

Hon. Brad Duguid: As I said, they like to quote studies funded by big oil. That’s up to them. That study was totally discredited.

What they don’t want to talk about, though, is their own leader’s plan for energy because they know that his plan would kill thousands of clean energy jobs—13,000 jobs created last year in this province in our clean energy economy; it will be up to 36,000 by the end of this year.

I’ve met those workers face to face. I challenge the member opposite to come out with me across this province in places like Windsor; like Tillsonburg; his leader’s backyard of Fort Erie; in Cambridge; in Sault Ste. Marie. I challenge him to come with me and meet those workers face to face, go eyeball-to-eyeball with them and tell them you want to kill their jobs.

Interjections.

Mr. John O’Toole: Why does everybody have to yell so much?

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): To answer the member’s question from Durham about why everyone has to yell so much: There’s so much noise in this chamber, no one can hear each other.

HEALTH CARE

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is to the Premier. Families in Niagara region are frustrated with their health care system, and for good reason. They’ve seen emergency rooms close in Fort Erie and Port Colborne and other services disappear from their communities. Last month, Niagara regional council approved a resolution calling for the independent investigation of the Niagara Health System. Is the Premier ready to listen to the residents of Niagara and call for an independent investigation?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Health.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Thank you to the member opposite for the question. I share the goal of everyone in Niagara when I say that our job is to improve health care in Niagara for the people of Niagara. The NHS is doing excellent work. There is new leadership there: the very capable interim leadership of Sue Matthews. They are moving forward to implement the hospital improvement plan.

I have no plans to appoint an investigator at this time. There have been several investigations, surveys and community engagements done in that area. In fact, Dr. Jack Kitts, who is the CEO of the Ottawa Hospital, had an engagement there; over 5,000 people showed up to discuss the Niagara health improvement plan.

We are moving forward to improve health care for people in Niagara. I look forward to the supplementary.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: I would guess that 5,000 people showed up because 5,000 people are just a small example of how many people are angry about what’s happening in the Niagara Health System.

Niagara Falls, Welland and Fort Erie have all passed similar resolutions. People are looking for an accountable, transparent health care system that actually responds to their needs. An independent investigation into the NHS would just be a start.

As families lose health care services and feel increasingly distrustful of the decision-making process, why won’t the Premier and this minister take the advice of regional leaders and order the investigation that they have called for?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Just last week, the Niagara Health System shared with the community exactly how the changes they are making are improving health care for people. Wait times are down.

Let me share with you how far wait times have come down in Niagara since 2003: Hip replacements are less than half of what they were; we’ve been able to cut 200 days off hip replacements; knee replacements are down by 36%—127 days of less waiting; cataract surgery is down; MRI outpatient is down by 33%; and outpatient CT scans are cut in half.

We are getting excellent results. I know that the people of Niagara are looking forward to the opening of the St. Catharines General Hospital. For the first time, they’ll be able to get cancer care much closer to home.

AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY

Mr. Wayne Arthurs: My question is for the Minister of Economic Development and Trade. Time and time again, I hear the Leader of the Opposition criticizing the Ontario government, stating that handouts to business under the guise of job creation are more about rewarding political friends than boosting the economy.

The member opposite has gone as far as stating, “This corporate welfare is sometimes two steps away from corruption.” This is a very big accusation. I represent many constituents that, in one way or another—both directly and indirectly—are employed by the auto industry. What concerns me most is that the member opposite opposed a partnership with the auto sector, calling the government’s assistance “corporate welfare.”

For this reason, I want to ask the Minister of Economic Development and Trade whether or not my constituents should care about the McGuinty government’s investments in the auto sector.

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: We’re often very disappointed in the statements by members of the opposition about a sector that’s so critical to the Ontario economy. When we stepped forward to partner with the auto industry during a recession that was the worst in terms of its impact on the manufacturing sector, we did not have the support of opposition members.

We went forward without them, but we partnered with great organizations: the CAW, GM, Chrysler. Today, Ontario can say that that partnership was worth it and those jobs—not just the jobs in Scarborough with this able representation, but the jobs right across Ontario—are being picked up, retained and, in fact, growing. We are delighted to report massive investments by General Motors in St. Catharines and in Oshawa—more people, more shifts. We’re delighted that—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member from Peterborough and the member from Durham, your comments to one another are very much of a personal nature. I don’t need to be in the crossfire, and I would much prefer that you take your differences outside this chamber.

Supplementary?

Mr. Wayne Arthurs: Minister, thank you for that response. I believe that if it hadn’t been for the Ontario government’s investment in the auto industry, many of my constituents would be unemployed. It’s great to hear the auto sector giants have been able to rebound and continue to grow. Additional production shifts and launching new vehicles is great news for this province and my constituents.

But what about small businesses involved in the industry? They’re often the backbone of economic success. Have these businesses been able to rebound just as effectively as their big brothers, or were they overlooked when the government was providing assistance to the auto sector?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: I appreciate that the opposition members don’t like getting called out on their behaviour, but we’re intent on doing that, not just now but especially when we go back to the people of Ontario and ask, “Who was there for you when you needed help the most?” It was this Ontario McGuinty government, and it was done in the absence of support of the opposition members.

They’re prepared to show up at receptions like the one last night, held right here in the precinct, to show their big support for industry, but where were they when those very same companies were looking for assistance to keep these jobs alive? Only the McGuinty government was there, not just for the companies, but for the CAW as well.

We will be there again, not just for those assemblers but also for those auto parts suppliers that are a critical part of that supply chain. There is no one on this continent that does it as well as Ontario, and that’s because of the support of the McGuinty government in the absence of the members of the opposition.

SCHOOL SAFETY

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: My question is for the Minister of Education. Minister, last week the Ontario Student Trustees’ Association released a survey which found that 46% of students in the senior grades had been bullied. As you know, this is a most significant increase from the 29% found in a similar survey by CAMH in 2009. We’ve gone from 29% to 46%.

However, this survey does confirm what students, parents and teachers repeatedly say; that is, that the situation is getting worse and that this government has no coordinated plan to keep our students safe in our schools.

I ask you, when will your government take the steps to keep our students safe in school?

Hon. Leona Dombrowsky: Certainly, student safety in our schools is a very important issue. That is why our government has made a priority of this. That is why we have established safe school teams. We have even asked these teams to work and ensure that we observe Bullying Awareness Week, which takes place in the fall. We are also asking boards to report to us to keep track of those incidences. We are doing everything we can to ensure that students have safe places to go.

Secondary schools, are very important places. I’m happy as well to report to this House that because of our investments in secondary schools, almost 80% of the students who are in those schools now are graduating. When we came to government, one in three of those students was dropping out—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: Minister, I noticed that you’re avoiding the fact. The fact is that 46% of the students were identified as having been bullied. This is a serious number; it’s a high number.

Unfortunately, to compound the seriousness of this issue, in 2010 the Auditor General criticized your ministry for recklessly throwing money at the bullying problem without bothering to develop performance indicators or tracking measures. This is despite the fact that your Premier says that tracking and measuring are critical for accountability. You’ve doled out $150 million without requiring schools to tell you whether it’s been spent on safe school initiatives or if it’s been effectively spent. You wrote the cheque and you walked away.

Why has your government failed to develop a comprehensive plan to keep our students safe at school?

Hon. Leona Dombrowsky: Actually, we do have a plan. It is the Safe Schools Act—and the honourable member and the members of the opposition voted against that piece of legislation. It is with that legislation that in 2011-12 we will be requiring school boards to actually report.

We are the government that requires reporting. We want to know these numbers. The previous government did not do that. We want those numbers because we want to continue to stream resources to schools to support them in their efforts to keep schools safe.

This is the government that has acted with legislation; they voted against that legislation. So it strikes me as very strange that they have the nerve to stand in the House today and ask what we’re doing, when they voted against what we are doing to keep students safe.

AIR-RAIL LINK

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: My question is to the Minister of Transportation. The decision to buy dirty diesel trains now and electrify later will cost taxpayers an extra $400 million for an extra track. Metrolinx has not yet signed the contract, we’ve learned. Will this government do the right thing and cancel the plan to purchase dirty diesel trains?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: We really have to ask whether the third party is interested in transit or is not interested in transit. We have to ask whether the third party is interested in having a world-class air-rail link from Union to Pearson or whether they are not.

We have said that we’re going to have the air-rail link in place for the Pan Am Games. That is a commitment that we have made, and we are going to follow through on that.

We have said that we are going to put an EA in place in order to begin the process of electrification. We are going to do that.

We have said that we are going to have trains on that track that can be converted to electric when the corridor is ready. We are going to follow through on that.

I think the third party should be supporting us on this. This is a very, very environmentally responsible transportation solution.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: I believe her backbenchers are interested in knowing if the Minister of Transportation is interested in what they want. They voted unanimously to electrify by 2015, and yet, clearly, that’s not what’s going to happen here.

Last month, in fact, the McGuinty government announced it would conduct its own environmental assessment, just like you heard the minister say, to electrify the air-rail link. So I’d like to know one thing: Can the minister tell us when this environmental assessment is expected to be completed? Will the McGuinty government act on this issue in a timely manner, or are they planning on dragging this out until after the next election?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I think the member opposite knows that it takes a number of years to do an environmental assessment. We are going to follow the rules, and we’re going to make sure that all of the issues are dealt with.

The member opposite has not talked in this House about what it means to electrify a corridor. The member opposite has not talked about the overhead catenary that has to be put in place. The member opposite has not talked about the booster stations that may need to be put in place along the line. We have to make sure that safety issues are dealt with. We have to make sure that the full environmental assessment is done.

We’ve made a commitment to 2015. We’re going to follow through on that commitment.

On the issue of backbenchers and members of our government who want to have an opinion about a particular issue, we’re not interested in silencing that. We want that debate to take place. We want that conversation to take place. I welcome the member for York South–Weston and the member for Davenport having a discussion with their constituents. We’re going to follow through and do this as quickly as possible—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

COMMUNITY SAFETY

Ms. Helena Jaczek: My question is for the Minister of Community Safety and Correctional Services. Community safety is a top priority for my constituents. It is the responsibility of the Ontario government to ensure that our communities are safe for individuals, families and, most importantly, our children. Oak Ridges–Markham is developing at such a rapid pace, the constituents in my riding are concerned about their safety due to the congestion of cars on the roads, new subdivisions being built and thousands of new residents moving in.

On behalf of my constituents and all Ontarians, I’m hoping the Minister of Community Safety and Correctional Services can share with this House what he’s doing to ensure the safety of Ontarians.

Hon. James J. Bradley: Over the past seven years, our government has provided significant financial support. We’ve put more than 2,000 additional police officers on the streets since 2003. We’re the only province in Canada to dedicate its entire allocation of funding under the federal police officer recruitment program to front-line police officers, resulting in another 325 new officers on the streets.

We’re investing in community-based crime prevention programs, such as the safer and vital communities grant program. We have also made investments to keep our communities safe through the guns-and-gangs investments. We’ve invested over $100 million in three highly successful programs: the guns and gangs task force, the Toronto anti-violence intervention strategy and provincial anti-violence intervention strategy. We announced earlier this year that we are allocating an additional $15 million to PAVIS over the next two years. It has already contributed to several local success stories in the York region.

We have done much and there’s much more to—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you.

USE OF QUESTION PERIOD

Mr. Ted Arnott: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: The member for Stormont–Dundas–South Glengarry, the member for Peterborough and the member from Scarborough East–Pickering participated in question period today, and instead of raising issues that might be of concern to their constituents, they used question period today as an opportunity to attack opposition members of the House.

Mr. Speaker, in the past, you have ruled and suggested that that’s an inap