Alberta Hansard — 9 June 1989, Morning sitting (10:00) (Legislature 22, Session 1)

19890609

Alberta — Debates (Hansard)

June 9, 1989 ALBERTA HANSARD 157 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Friday, June 9, 1989 10:00 a.m. Date: 89/06/09 [The House met at 10 a.m.] [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] PRAYERS MR. SPEAKER: Let us pray. We, Thine unworthy servants here gathered together in Thy name, do humbly beseech Thee to send down Thy heavenly wis dom from above to direct and guide us in all our considerations. Amen. head: PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: Member for Red Deer-North. MR. DAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As chairman of the com mittee I'd like to table the report on the members of the select and standing committees of the Legislature. head: NOTICES OF MOTIONS MR. FOX: Mr. Speaker, I rise to express my intention to move, following Routine Orders and before the calling of Orders of the Day under the provisions of Standing Order 40, the following motion:

Be it resolved that the Legislative Assembly pay tribute to the hardworking farm families of Alberta for their significant con tributions to our province's past, present, and future on this special day observed in rural communities throughout Alberta as Farmers' Day. head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MR. ISLEY: Mr. Speaker, I take pleasure in tabling four copies of a news release dispatched by Alberta Agriculture yesterday saluting Alberta's farm families and recognizing that today is Farmers' Day in Alberta. MR. ANDERSON: Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to table the 1987-88 annual report of the Department of Consumer and Cor porate Affairs. MR. STEWART: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the 15th annual report of the Alberta Educational Communications Cor poration, also the 1987-88 report of the Alberta Heritage Foun dation for Medical Research, copies of which have been distrib uted to the members. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. DR. ELLIOTT: Mr.

Speaker, I wish as chairman of the North ern Alberta Development Council to file four copies of two pub lications: the Community Survey Handbook and A Study of the Youth of Northern Alberta and Entrepreneurship. MR. KOWALSKI: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table with the As sembly the 1987-88 annual report of Alberta Public Safety Services. MR. SPEAKER: Minister of Culture and Multiculturalism. MR. MAIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'm pleased to table with the Assembly four copies each of the following annual reports: the Department of Culture and Multiculturalism annual report for '87-88, the Alberta Historical Resources Foundation '88 annual report, the annual report of the Alberta Foundation for the Literary Arts, the annual report for '87-88 of the Alberta Cultural Heritage Council, and the 1988 annual report of the Glenbow-Alberta Institute. MR. OLDRING: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to be able to table the 1986-87 annual report of the formerly named Department of Social Services.

I would point out that this report was sent to the Members of the Legislative Assembly some months ago so that there would be no delay in the information being provided. Again, in keeping with the government's commitment to provid ing full and complete information to the members of this As sembly and the public in general, I am pleased to table the 1988 annual report of the Social Care Facilities Review Committee, an important watchdog committee which monitors the activities of facilities licensed by my department. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS DR. WEST: Mr.

Speaker, it is my pleasure today to introduce to you and to the Members of the Legislative Assembly the win ners of the Alberta Sport Council's Year of the Coach essay contest, their parents, and coaches. The Year of the Coach es say contest was developed to heighten awareness of the positive contributions Alberta coaches make to sports in the province of Alberta. I would ask that the winners, their parents, and coaches rise as I call out their names. They are seated in your gallery, Mr. Speaker, and I ask the members to hold their warm wel come until they've been introduced.

The winners are as follows: Tara Duduman, who is in grade 3 at Jessie Duncan elementary school at Penhold, her parents, Ian and Karen Duduman, and her gymnastics coach, Jeff Meadows; Cary Williams, who is in grade 5 at Westlock ele mentary school in Westlock, his parents, Wayne and Linda Wil liams, and his swimming coach, Mrs. Anne Jamieson. Also here today is Shaun Wold, a grade 9 student from Alliance school, Alliance, Alberta, his parents, Dale and Sylvia Wold, his coach, Barney Olsen, and his wife, Lorrie; and finally we have Marlayne Erickson, a grade 10 student from Wm. E.

Hay com posite high school in Stettler, her parents, Robert and Phyliss Erickson, and her swimming coach, Larry Nielson, and his wife, Joan. I would ask all members to extend a warm welcome and congratulations in their traditional manner. DR. ELLIOTT: Mr. Speaker, it's my special privilege today to introduce to you and through you to Members of this Assembly special visitors from Denmark this morning. In our gallery we

158 ALBERTA HANSARD June 9, 1989 have a Mr. and Mrs. Hans Nielsen and their Canadian, in fact their Albertan, indeed their Grande Prairie guides, Mr. and Mrs. Ed Boyce. I'd ask them to stand and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. MS M. LAING: Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure today to intro duce to you and through you to the members of this Assembly 74 students from St. Hilda school. I believe they are seated in the members' gallery. They are accompanied by teachers Mr. Burke and Mrs. Lecky-Perron and parents Mrs. Vicky Bastide, Mrs. Penny Lamnek, Mrs. Sally Stewart-Leach, Mrs. Pat Mcln- tyre, Mrs.

Helen Trelenberg, Mrs. Anne Bosse, Mrs. Audrey Tailleur, Mrs. Betty Clutterham, Mrs. Jannie Edwards, and Mr. John Wiszt. I would ask that they rise and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. MR. WOLOSHYN: Mr. Speaker, to you and through you to the members of the Assembly I would like to outdo Edmonton- Avonmore and introduce 82 students from Brookwood elemen tary school, located in the city of Spruce Grove. They are ac companied by their teachers Beth Willett, Rubin Bauer, Sharon Higgins, and parents Mr. Welch, Mrs. Soice, Mrs. Day, Mrs. Bosse, Mrs. Brewer. They are seated in the public gallery.

I would ask them to rise and receive the traditional warm wel come of the House. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Taxation Policy MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, to the Premier. It should be rather obvious to everybody now that this government can't be trusted to keep its promises. Say anything before an election and during an election and then have your real agenda after. In case I misquoted, I have along their commitments here in a nice Journal ad.

In one of them it says: In fact, because of Alberta's economic strength, Don Getty says, "There is only one direction Alberta taxes will take, and that direction is down." Just the opposite has happened. Some taxes have gone up; none have gone down. Why didn't you tell the truth during the election? MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, we've dealt with the matter before. As I've told the hon. member and the people of Alberta, we had been referring to income taxes. [interjection] Mr. Speaker, if the hon. members don't like it, that's tough. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, it's not tough on us; it's tough on the people of Alberta.

It doesn't say anything about income taxes in there. But let me look at another one. In the 1987 budget the gov ernment brought in what they called a temporary flat tax rate. They said "temporary." I notice it's still there. Why didn't they remove this tax if they said taxes were going down? Why, again, didn't they tell the truth to the people of Alberta? MR. GETTY: All hon. members, I'm sure, Mr. Speaker, know that the government removed part of the temporary tax this last year. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, the point we're trying to make is that this is an election commitment.

I'm asking the Premier: why would you put out and spend all this money on something if you had no intention of following through? Why, again, were you lying to the people of Alberta? MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, I know how uncomfortable the op position is with trying to draw up some terrible catastrophe that was coming in the budget and to have found all their predictions fall apart. In fact, what we have is a budget that has the best people services in Canada, the lowest taxes in Canada, meets our commitments, and moves to a balanced budget. That's the best we've provided. MR. GOGO: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Point of order. Thank you. MR. MARTIN: Well, I like to give the hon. member exercise. He doesn't get much else to do back there. Budget Deficit and Fiscal Policies MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, to follow up. They can pound all they like, but Albertans know exactly what they said. My ques tion now to the Treasurer; maybe we can get some truth from the Treasurer. I go back. I know his picture isn't on this, but he is the Treasurer He said that eventually we would be . . .

Our consolidated debt, I want to point out, is now going to be, after this budget year, close to $10 billion, and this budget year our deficit will probably be another $2 billion, and in here it says very clearly: Alberta's fiscal management plan will result in balanced budgets by 1991. This plan is not only on target -- it is $500 million ahead. Now we learn the truth in this budget, Mr. Speaker. I ask the Treasurer: how can Albertans ever again think that this govern ment has a serious fiscal plan? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, there's no doubt that the peo ple of Alberta understand that this government is a government that represents good management and strong fiscal respon sibility. We are the ones who took the tough actions in 1987. We addressed immediately the problems which were facing us as a result of sharp oil price changes in that period. Now the economy is emerging, and now the economy is strong, and now the investment dollars are flowing to this province. The people of Alberta understand that plan, and the statistics are supporting the plan that's now in action.

We know that we can manage the size of our expenditures. When I spoke last night, I pointed out very vividly that in fact the expenditures of this province over the past four years are on average only 1.3 percent. That's an amazing record. We took the tough action. We made good management decisions. I can tell you that this government has faith in the future of this province. This province is on the rebound again. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, what claptrap. Ten billion dollars in debt in the last number of years. Again, was this a commit ment or not?

Was the Treasurer aware that they were putting this out, and if he was, why didn't he stop them when he knew full well that they weren't going to reach that balanced budget the way they said in this commitment?

June 9, 1989 ALBERTA HANSARD 159 MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, let me clarify for the member across the way, who is throwing these numbers around very casually, that this province on balance does have some debt, and we are dealing with that problem. We are the ones who are go ing to take on the challenge of reducing the deficit and eventu ally reducing that debt. But you know, the facts of the matter are this. New investment is coming to this province. Now, the Member for Edmonton-Norwood always says he's the one who protects jobs.

Quite the contrary; the policies of this govern ment are the ones that generate jobs, protect jobs, and generate long-term investment. It's amazing; this morning, Mr. Speaker, the current un employment rates in Canada were released. Now, I know the member doesn't want me to recite them, but they know they're very dramatic information that this Assembly should see. What it shows, Mr. Speaker . . . MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, hon. minister. Order please. Save some ammunition for the final supplementary. Thank you. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, this Treasurer's been wrong so many times.

Their fiscal strategy is getting on their knees and bowing to the sheikhs of the east; that's their fiscal plan. But I want, then, Mr. Speaker, because I don't believe even this Treasurer believes the things that were in that budget -- I believe that honestly -- to ask this Treasurer, because of the debt and all the rest of it, knowing what happened in 1986-87, will he give his solemn commitment here that in the budget coming up in probably less than nine months, there will be no increase in taxes on average families and no cutbacks in the people services such as education, health care, and social services . . .

MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, hon. member. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the people of Alberta know the commitment of this government. We have always maintained the lowest possible tax regime of any province in Canada, and we do not have a sales tax in this province, 8 percent taken out of the working folks' pockets. I'll tell you about the agenda of this province. The member across the way likes to talk about the secret agenda.

We have an agenda, and that agenda is to get this economy growing, to get investment dollars flowing into this province, to have the lowest unemployment, second only to Ontario, in Canada, and to have a very strong, vibrant oppor tunity, with high education expenditures, great medical services, and some of the finest opportunities for the youth in this prov ince of anywhere in Canada. That's our agenda. It may well be a secret agenda because it's not the one that they want, but it's the agenda the people of Alberta want, Mr. Speaker. MR. DECORE: Mr.

Speaker, by the end of this fiscal term and during the whole of the period that Mr. Premier has been in his job, in his position, we now have an accumulated deficit which is equal to $3,300 for every man, woman, and child in Alberta. The Premier made promises, commitments, to Alberta during the course of the election, and one of those commitments was that there would be no increase in the deficit. My question to the Premier is this. Why has he betrayed the commitment to Albertans, now seeing that the deficit has gone up when he said it would not go up? MR. GETTY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member is making some comments. I don't think he knows what he's talking about, and I can't respond to something in his mind. MR. DECORE: Mr. Speaker, the Premier has a very short memory. I'd like to ask the Premier: why during the election, sir, did you continue to promise to Albertans that your government's plan to do away with our deficit by 1990-91 was on target? Why did you make those statements? Why did you fool people, sir? MR. GETTY: As I've said before, Mr.

Speaker, I normally no tice in the Legislature that when members have a very weak po sition to place, they tend to yell and raise their voices, and this member is following right along with the Liberal normal tactics. The Provincial Treasurer dealt with this matter last night and dealt with it very effectively. MR. DECORE: Mr.

Speaker, is the Premier aware that the moneys now required to service debt are 42 percent higher this year -- that's to $825 million -- and is he prepared to admit that this lack of fiscal planning is going to have Alberta entrepreneurs not have the confidence in the Alberta economy and people outside Alberta having the same lack of confidence because of his lack of commitment, his lack of action, his no plan? MR. GETTY: Again, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is showing that he doesn't know what he's talking about. He's done that over a period of time, and now he confirms it in the Legislature.

In fact, the statistics that the hon. Provincial Treasurer's talking about today were explained last night in the budget: billions of dollars of investment flowing across this province; confidence strong and healthy in this province; the unemployment statistics released today showing the best employment statistics since 1982; as the Provincial Treasurer pointed out, 1.3 percent aver age increase over the last four years in program expenditures, the best in Canada.

This government has just presented the best people services budget in Canada, the lowest taxes in Canada, met all our commitments, and it's too bad they just don't like it, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Table, has he got one more? Okay, thank you. Member for Banff-Cochrane, followed by Calgary-Mountain View. Employment Statistics MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last night in this As sembly we heard that the employment figures in Alberta were very positive for last year. Last year is last year.

This is a very important issue for the people of Banff-Cochrane, and I would like to ask a question to the Acting Minister of Career Develop ment and Employment: what are the statistics for 1989? MR. KOWALSKI: Mr. Speaker . . . [interjections] MR. SPEAKER: Order please, hon. minister. Thank you. Per haps all of the House could give the courtesy to the members that they expect to receive themselves. Mr. Minister.

160 ALBERTA HANSARD June 9, 1989 MR. KOWALSKI: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. If there ever was a situation in a case or a better example of a situ ation of promises made and promises kept, the area of economic revival of this province, as seen through the unemployment fig ures in this province, is probably the most dramatic one. This morning we were informed from Statistics Canada that our ac tual unemployment rate in the province of Alberta for the month of May 1989 was 6.7 percent. That is down a full 1.4 percent age point from the previous month.

That's the lowest level of unemployment that we've had in the province of Alberta since April of 1982. We also have 1.236 million Albertans employed; that's the highest level ever in the history of this province. MR. EVANS: Supplemental question, Mr. Speaker. Summer is here; this government has made a commitment to the youth of this province as our future. Again, a question to the acting min ister. May I please have statistics on student employment in Alberta? MR. KOWALSKI: Mr.

Speaker, according to the figures pro vided to us this morning by Statistics Canada, the amount of students, young people, employed in this province -- and all members will recall that in the Speech from the Throne given on February 17, 1989, the Speech from the Throne of June 1, 1989, and the Budget Address presented last night, a major commit ment of this government was to the skills enhancement and em ployment of the citizens of Alberta. I'm pleased to report that according to Statistics Canada, we had 100,000 Alberta students employed in the month of May.

That is a new record in the his tory of the province of Alberta for the month of May, Mr. Speaker. MR. EVANS: Second supplemental, Mr. Speaker, again to the acting minister. This government has indicated that it has made a commitment to rejuvenating the economies of Edmonton and Calgary. Let's hear what the statistics are for those areas. MR. KOWALSKI: Mr. Speaker, even more dramatic than the figures that I've talked about for the whole province of Alberta are the figures that you can see here in the city of Edmonton. In April of 1989 the unemployment level in Edmonton was 9.5 percent.

As of today the unemployment level in the city of Ed monton is 7.6 percent, a dramatic reduction. In Calgary, Mr. Speaker, those figures have reduced them selves unemploymentwise from 7.3 percent in April to 6.5 per cent, and there is a clear indication as to why this has happened. A major, major reason, of course, is the economic development strategies of this government in this part of Alberta. But, secondly, the more positive leadership that we now see in the city of Edmonton under Mayor Cavanagh is a direct reflection of this. MR. SIGURDSON: A point of order at the end of question period, please, Mr.

Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The Chair hasn't recognized the member yet The Chair will recognize the following order: Calgary- Mountain View, Calgary-Buffalo, Calgary-Glenmore. Thank you. Budget Deficit and Fiscal Policies (continued) MR. HAWKESWORTH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last year in his financial plan of 1988, on page 23, the Provincial Treas urer included the heritage fund capital projects in estimating the true budget deficit of the province. Last night he fudged the figures and gave no similar estimate for the true deficit figure in the current financial year.

Will the Provincial Treasurer now admit to the Legislature that the combined deficit for last year was over $1.9 billion, rather than the budgetary deficit figure the Provincial Treasurer gave to the Legislature last night? MR. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Speaker, I am the last one who wants to deal with the confusing statistics. We could obviously present all kinds of information. Let me simply reveal that ob viously the focus of this Legislative Assembly in terms of budget, in terms of program position, is always on the General Revenue Fund.

Now, there are other expenditures that take place across government agencies, including the heritage fund, and the heritage fund expenditures were referred to in the budget speech last night. But all members know that the expenditures out of the capital projects division of the heritage fund do not have a call on the General Revenue Fund, and therefore, Mr. Speaker, in terms of disclosure we thought it was just as fair to show the impact of the General Revenue Fund, because that's where the general management, the general interest of the peo ple of Alberta is focused. MR. HAWKESWORTH: Well, Mr.

Speaker, each year they count the income from the heritage fund. This year they don't any longer count the expenditures under the fund. Will the Provincial Treasurer now come clean to the Legislature and con firm that the combined deficit for this year is really $1.634 bil lion and not the lower figure he tried to foist on us last night? MR. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, you could, of course, consolidate for disclosure purposes a variety of different funds, and of course those are consolidated at the end of the year when we file the annual report of the province here in the Legislative Assembly, but I suppose that if you took the same analysis that the member across the way has just presented, you would also note a very interesting statistic as well: that under this current budget that I presented on behalf of the government last night, under your numbers, the Member for Calgary-Mountain View, in fact, you would see that we reduced our deficit even more dramatically on a year over year basis this year, as a result of the combination of those numbers.

MR. HAWKESWORTH: It's still not as good as he tried to paint the picture last night. I want to know why the Provincial Treasurer is deliberately trying to switch the figures this year for the first time and hide the true combined deficit figure from the people of Alberta. MR. JOHNSTON: No, Mr. Speaker, there is no attempt here to hide information. I am sure that through the debate here, which will ensue over the hot summer months ahead, we'll have ample opportunity to look at a variety of other funds that are being used by the government to cover expenditures.

We have used this disclosure: previously, and as I've indicated before, this is consistent with other governments in terms of how they disclose

June 9, 1989 ALBERTA HANSARD 161 their expenditures, provides for intergovernmental comparisons. We all know we'll have an opportunity in just a few days to de bate the heritage fund as well. So you see, this information is on the Table. Anybody who has any understanding of the way in which financial information is disclosed would understand that, and I'm sure over the next few days I'll have an opportunity to give the member a lesson again. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Calgary-Buffalo, followed by Calgary-Glenmore, then Edmonton-Mill Woods. MR. CHUMIR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This government is developing a national reputation for creative accounting which misleads rather than informs. Last year's creativity was re flected by, amongst other things, $18.50 a barrel oil. This year we have $19 a barrel oil, and major oil companies are using $17 to $17.50. But more spectacularly the Provincial Treasurer at page 30 of his Budget Address has estimated that sales of Crown leases will bring in $525 million this year, which is an increase of $75 million over last year, when in fact these reve nues for the two months of this fiscal year to date are down $50 million from last year.

They are down 43 percent on the basis of figures that I have right here from the government. I'm won dering how the Premier justifies his government predicting a $75 million increase in Crown sales when the figures for the two months to date reflect a decrease of $50 million, which would result in a decrease of at least $200 million for the whole year. MR. JOHNSTON: Again, Mr. Speaker, let me just give a cou ple of facts here. As I look at the calendar, it's now June 9. It's a Friday. We're now six months into the year. We have given to Albertans the best guess we have as to oil prices.

I've been in consultation with my colleague the Minister of Energy. The oil price is not just an oil price, but it's a composite index of oil and natural gas as well. I think we can say that the price of oil will be fairly close to $19 for the 12-month period that this budget covers. And how can we say that? Well, the first six months of 1989 have already shown the price of oil to be well over $19.

I think the prediction this year is closer than we have ever been before, and this government knows two things: it believes that the industry, when it sees that price confirmation in place, will bring the activity back to this province because it's the best place to be. And we know, Mr. Speaker, as we said in the budget speech last night, that the optimism in the natural gas sector in terms of the expansion into the American markets will give us a dramatic . . . [interjections] MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order.

It's interesting to note that in this Legislature, as in the last, Friday mornings seem to generate even more of the fun and games and the babble. Nevertheless, in actual fact perhaps the noise could be cut down a bit so at least the rest of us could hear what the answer is. MR. CHUMIR: Well, we've had $20 dollar a barrel oil, and the land sales are down 43 percent.

I'm wondering whether the Pre mier can think of any reason and tell us why his government is predicting that land sales are suddenly going to get hot when there's no indication, and his government isn't even predicting, that oil prices are going to go up and when we have a drilling industry which has almost ground to a halt. Is there a Ouija board in operation in the cabinet room? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, both the industry and the peo ple of Alberta know that this government bases its decisions on facts. We consult with the private sector on a day-to-day basis with respect to our information.

There is a blend of prices. The price we used is far above some prices coming out of the New York and London markets and Saudi Arabia. I notice today that the press in Calgary is saying that the $19 amount is within reason. It shows their optimism. It shows their view of the future. Mr. Speaker, with respect to land sales let me point out that in 1987 we forecast, I think, $300 million. Lo and behold, it was $750 million. I didn't hear the member criticizing us at that point. We have faith, we have confidence, and the industry is going to rebound in this province. MR. CHUMIR: Well, Mr.

Speaker, these numbers are clearly totally unacceptable. I'm wondering whether the Premier will instruct his Provincial Treasurer to do the right thing and now, here, one day after he presented his Budget Address, present a new budget update which will reflect an increased budget deficit of $200 million to account for what is going to be a decrease in Crown lease sales rather than an increase, as his numbers . . . MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. MR. JOHNSTON: I guess, Mr. Speaker, we have optimism.

We in fact believe that our deficit will improve over what's been reported here because of the strength in the oil and gas sector. The land sales will come back in this province in the fall of this year; you can be assured of that. And don't forget that this fis cal year carries through to March 31, 1990, and the forecast for 1990 in oil and gas prices is even more bullish than what we have put in our budget. Health Care for Seniors MRS. MIROSH: Mr. Speaker, our government, in the throne speech and now in the budget speech last night, advocated inde pendency for seniors.

In the budget speech last night there's a significant increase of funding for home care, up 44 percent to $47 million. This is indeed a significant amount of money. Would the Minister of Health please tell this Assembly whether this money will be targeted specifically to seniors? MRS. BETKOWSKI: Well, Mr. Speaker, I welcome the ques tion because not only have we told Albertans about the impor tance of getting on with some of the important choices to sup port their independence; we have followed through on our finan cial commitments as outlined in the budget last evening.

Cer tainly our home care increase of 44 percent will be targeted at seniors, and I'm very proud to be part of a budget process in which overall spending will ensure that seniors are supported by $1 billion in our expenditures in this province. MRS. MIROSH: Will seniors be able to access home care on a 24-hour basis, seven days a week, or is it still just the usual five days a week? MRS. BETKOWSKI: Mr. Speaker, I will have to check on the exact time allocation for the programs.

There are different uses of the home care dollars as we support the variability of access and the variability of needs across our province. So I will dou-

162 ALBERTA HANSARD June 9, 1989 ble check on that for the hon. member and get back to her. MRS. MIROSH: Thank you. While home care is indeed very important, what plan does the minister have regarding im plementation of the long-term care report with the recommenda tions towards co-ordinating other programs? MRS. BETKOWSKI: Mr. Speaker, again we get onto the issue of the commitments we have made to Albertans. In the general policy framework of the social policy paper that we described, we supported the whole issue of choices for individual Al bertans and support them in making those choices.

We followed through with the establishment of the long-term care committee. I applaud the Member for Calgary-Glenmore as the chairperson of that committee who did some very fine work in consulting across our province. Thirdly, we get into the whole issue of health choices: the expansion in our budget last evening of long-term care with respect to community choices, which will get some of our seniors out of institutions, will delay some of them moving in, and move in programs like wellness for seniors, day adult programs, and homemaker training.

But as well we're working on the institutional side, with a patient clas sification system which will now blur the lines between nursing home care and auxiliary care and ensure that we can serve Al bertans well within the fiscal management position of this province. Confidentiality of WCB Files MR. GIBEAULT: Mr.

Speaker, yesterday in this House the minister responsible for the Workers' Compensation Board said this, and I'm quoting from yesterday's Hansard: "I'll apologize for the Workers' Compensation Board and for myself . . . if I in fact erred." Now, that apology might be considered an apology by our Liberal friends, but it most certainly is not by New Democrats. MR. SPEAKER: Oh, I'm sorry, hon. member. The apology was there in terms of privilege yesterday and withdrawn, and it was accepted by the House. Therefore, that's really pretty skit tish ground.

The Chair looks forward to hearing the question. [interjections] The Chair looks forward to hearing the question from Edmonton-Mill Woods, not from the whole caucus, thank you. MR. GIBEAULT: My question to the minister is simply this, Mr. Speaker: given the gravity of the matter involving the vio lation of a citizen's right to confidentiality, will he now do the honourable thing today and issue an unreserved, unqualified apology to Mr. Spencer? MR. TRYNCHY: Mr. Speaker, I think my comments in Han sard stand. MR.

GIBEAULT: Well, having passed up that opportunity to re-establish some integrity, will the minister now take this op portunity to stand in the House and do the honourable thing and resign? MR. SPEAKER: Final supplementary. MR. GIBEAULT: Mr. Speaker, final supplementary to the Premier, who has to, I'm sure, appreciate that the public must have some basis of trust in cabinet ministers, ministers of the Crown. I would like to ask the Premier this: what course of action is he going to take in this matter?

Will he ask the Workers' Compensation Board board of directors to launch a prosecution against the minister for this violation, or will he ask for his resignation? Which will it be? MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has surely got himself off on some wild goose chase. But I would say this to the House: as I understand, the House dealt with the matter of privilege on its own basis yesterday. I understand that.

But I want to recall to the hon. members my announcement that I've asked the minister to review with the Workers' Compensation Board how its staff, officers, and others disseminate information and for him to report back to me, and we will deal with any recommendations he might have. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Edmonton-Gold Bar. Drug Abuse Treatment MRS. HEWES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

For some months now we've heard passionate statements from the Premier about the need to strengthen and protect family life and in particular to deal with the tragedy of drug abuse and our urgent requirements for our intervention and treatment. The government and the Premier raised expectations in the public about this treatment being available. Now we're finding the promise is broken, as the budget changes from being a $200 million fund for immedi ate treatment programs into a $250,000 study program -- another year, another study, another promise shattered. My question is to the Premier.

Why the sudden need to study the issue, when the Premier was so insistent during the campaign that the drug situation in Alberta needed immediate action? Why the stall? MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member draws conclusions that are completely false. The government has announced that there will be a $200 million endowment in the heritage trust fund, much as we have the medical research endowment in the heritage trust fund, and that it will deal with family life and drug abuse.

It will make, I'm sure, an outstanding contribution to the education, treatment, research into the problems of drug abuse that is so widespread in our society these days. We are commit ted to that, and we will do it. We want to make sure that it pro ceeds on a reasonable, stage-after-stage accomplishment. We're going to do it with the Minister of Health and the Minister of Education and the Minister of Family and Social Services work ing together. There is no change in our commitment.

We have the planning going on, we have AADAC working with us as well, and our commitment to fight against this scourge is as strong as ever. MRS. HEWES: Mr. Speaker, another promise broken. Surely we know what needs to be done. When, in the Premier's mind, will there be treatment facilities available for the young people of this province? When will they be here? MR. GETTY: Well, Mr. Speaker, the hon. Minister of Health may well want to deal with this in some additional way. But as the member knows, the government will be proceeding to pro-

June 9, 1989 ALBERTA HANSARD 163 vide education, research, and treatment services to the best of our ability, because we feel so strongly about this matter of drug abuse and its impact on family life in Alberta. MRS. BETKOWSKI: Mr. Speaker, I would like to supplement the Premier's response. I think as we look to the very important role that AADAC has played in this province -- and I'm pleased that the budget for AADAC as noted in the estimates book will be increasing by close to 20 percent this year. That will include the enhancement of treatment capabilities within the AADAC program.

Nonetheless, I believe, and the Premier has stated very effectively, that it's very important to talk to stakeholder groups across this province, to talk to experts, to talk to Al bertans to determine how we can get the best value for the won derful endowment out of the heritage fund, which of course will stay in the heritage fund, and the funds from it will be able to support this very important initiative that we intend to do well for the people of this province. MRS. HEWES: Mr. Speaker, we can't talk about AADAC. We're in catch-up there. They had $29 million in '86-87.

We're just now reaching back to where the cutbacks occurred. MR. SPEAKER: Question. MRS. HEWES: Mr. Speaker, my question again is to the Premier. What happened to the Grande Prairie centre, the 50- bed centre that's been put on hold, that's been on the program since '86? And what's happened to the centres that the chair man of AADAC spoke about that were going to be in Edmonton and Calgary this fall? Where have they gone, Mr. Premier? MRS. BETKOWSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I would be happy to deal with both of those, as will the chairman of the Alberta Alcohol and Drug Abuse Commission, when our estimates are before the Assembly. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Rocky Mountain House, followed by Vegreville. Albertans in China MR. LUND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We continue to be ap palled and very concerned with the events that are going on and have been going on in China. We know that there are or have been a number of people from Alberta working on the Dinosaur Project in a northern remote area of China as well.

I would like to ask the Minister of Culture and Multiculturalism to bring the House up to date on the events as far as these people are concerned. MR. MAIN: Mr. Speaker, I know that all Albertans share the concern for the situation in China, and it gives me a great deal of pleasure to inform the Assembly this morning that the five Canadians who were working in China connected with the Dinosaur Project are all safe.

The individuals include Don Brinkman from the Tyrrell museum in Drumheller and a freelance photographer from the same city, Mike Todor, who along with two gentlemen from the National Museums in Ot tawa were working in the northern, remote regions of the Gobi desert. We've been able to contact them through the efforts of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs and through External Affairs. They are now safe in a home in Beijing and will be leaving Monday. Another individual from Edmonton who was in Shanghai working on a film project there is also going to be able to leave Monday.

We're very, very glad to be able to re port that. They've all been in touch with their families, and things are fine. MR. LUND: Thank you. Mr. Speaker, we know that this was an ongoing project between the two governments. Would the minister bring us up to date on the status of the project? MR. MAIN: Yes. Mr. Speaker, there has been some misin formation about the Dinosaur Project and the attitudes towards it. Let me say this: the Dinosaur Project is an ongoing project of a scientific and research nature that's based on a people-to- people basis.

The current political climate in China, however, does make it impossible for the work to continue in that loca tion. But there's a great deal to do based on research that has been conducted over the last three or four years, and work will continue in Edmonton, Drumheller, the high Arctic, and Ottawa as we in the government continue to monitor the situation in China. MR. SPEAKER: Supplementary, Member for Rocky Mountain House. MR. LUND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We also know that there were a number of students from Alberta studying in Heilongjiang province.

To the Minister of Federal and Inter governmental Affairs. Would you please bring us up to date on the status of these students? MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to do so. Unfor tunately, it has not been possible to obtain landing rights for Canadian military -- air force -- aircraft in the city of Harbin.

Therefore, plans have been made to transport the students to the eastern seacoast city of Dalian, and from there charter aircraft from Hong Kong is being retained by our government to transport the students and their staff advisers back to outside the People's Republic of China, I think to Hong Kong or to Tokyo, from whence they will be returned to Edmonton. All families, I should advise the Assembly, have been contacted by the Univer sity of Alberta and by the Department of Federal and Inter governmental Affairs.

So far as we are aware, everything is proceeding so that the safety of the Alberta students can be as sured. That is something I would like to leave with the Assem bly before the weekend. MR. SPEAKER: Member for Vegreville, followed by Edmonton-Kingsway, Drayton Valley, Westlock-Sturgeon. Agricultural Diesel Fuel MR. FOX: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. While welcoming the 5 cents a litre break on diesel fuel provided in the budget, I think farmers in Alberta are very skeptical about the way this govern ment makes decisions about important farm programs.

I might remind you that in 1987 when grain prices were rock bottom and farmers desperately needed cash, the Conservatives took away the 5 cent benefit, and in 1989 when the Conservatives needed votes, they brought the benefit back. I'd like to ask the Premier why the political needs of the Conservative Party to cut

164 ALBERTA HANSARD June 9, 1989 spending in 1987 and to buy votes in 1989 are more important than the real needs of Alberta farmers. MR. GETTY: They aren't, Mr. Speaker. MR. FOX: The record speaks for itself. The Premier and his government voted against my motion in 1987 to restore that benefit.

Taking the Premier at his words, if the decision wasn't a political one, I'd like to ask him what calculations this govern ment did to determine that when grain prices and net farm in come were rock bottom, this program for farmers should be cut, while in 1989 when grain prices are improving, that the program should be restored. MR. GETTY: Mr.

Speaker, these matters are always judgment The Minister of Agriculture may well want to supplement my comments, but let me just tell the hon. member that the govern ment decides on a reasoned basis, balancing the needs of our budgetary restraints and budgetary dollars with the needs of Albertans. MR. FOX: I'd like to ask the Premier if it's his newfound love of rural Alberta that's responsible for this program, and if it is, will the love last long enough to assure farmers that they won't lose this 5 cent a litre benefit in next year's budget? MR. GETTY: Mr.

Speaker, I recall back in 1985, when first talking about the potential for returning to public life, how I es tablished for myself and with our party that agriculture is the number one priority of this government and this party, and that hasn't changed. MR. SPEAKER: Edmonton-Kingsway, Drayton Valley, Westlock-Sturgeon, Calgary-McKnight, Edmonton-Jasper Place, Edmonton-Meadowlark. Budget Deficit and Fiscal Policies (continued) MR. McEACHERN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the 1986-87 budget the combined deficit was estimated by the Treasurer to be $2.33 billion.

It turned out to be $3.44 billion, an error of some 48 percent. The next year his error was 45 percent, fortu nately in the right direction, but this last year the error was 127 percent in the wrong direction. I ask the Treasurer how can anybody believe his $1.49 billion deficit figure in this budget, particularly when we know that he's not counting the heritage trust fund and that it should be $1.63 billion? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I know that over the next few months here we'll have an opportunity to discuss the fiscal plan, talk about the numbers.

And I hope that over the next two months as well, I'll be unable to unravel what it is the member just said. MR. McEACHERN: I understand that the Treasurer is a bit slow with figures, but perhaps we can try this. In the December 6 update of his budget, he said that the deficit would be $1.37 billion; that is, the combined deficit. His budget figures last night show that it was $1.9 billion. Would he like to assure the people of Alberta that his mistake had nothing to do with lying to the people before an election? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, he's going to get my competi tive juices flowing here with those kinds of words. MR. SPEAKER: The Chair's own competitive juices are flow ing as well. That's the third member today who's used the term "lying," or words to such effect. That just absolutely has to stop. Response, please, Provincial Treasurer, to the question. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr Speaker, I'm taken aback and shocked by the accusations of the member. We maintain the decorum in this House, and I think you can see that from across the way there's no respect for the parliamentary traditions.

We're trying to present a reasonable fiscal plan to the people of Alberta, try ing to get the message across to the good folks in Lethbridge in particular so they understand the programs of this government. But as I understand it from across the way, what they would do is reduce the taxes on cigarettes, would cut back on the social programs.

It is this government that has the conscience, that is the caring government, as we said before, because we want to maintain those programs and we're doing it with a balanced position, because the economy of this province is very strong, the tax regime is extremely low, and the people of Alberta have faith in this government. MR. SPEAKER: The time for question period has expired. Might we have unanimous consent to complete this series of questions and also to have the Minister of Agriculture give supplementary information on a matter that was raised yesterday? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: Opposed? Carried.

Thank you. MR. McEACHERN: Mr. Speaker, every prognosticator in the country for the last four months has indicated that the Alberta economy will grow at the slowest rate of any province in Canada, yet the Treasurer continues to stand up here and mis lead the people of this province by saying that we've got the healthiest economy. MR. SPEAKER: Sorry, hon. member. "Mislead" is unparlia mentary. Please withdraw it. MR. McEACHERN: I'll withdraw. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I would give some free advice to the member.

I mean, if you're going to ask questions of that order, you're giving us a great opportunity to tell the good peo ple of Alberta just what it is I'm going to tell him now; that is, that this economy is one of the strongest economies in Canada. Last year the growth rate was 7.7 percent, the highest in Canada, and the lowest inflation rate. Lo and behold, what did we find out this morning? Now, I know it shot down their game plan. I know they don't want to talk about diversification, the great things that are happening in this province. Here it is, Mr.

Speaker: the second lowest un employment rate in Canada, 6.9 percent. People are at work. People are enjoying themselves. They're convinced that this government is doing the right thing. This economy is going to

June 9, 1989 ALBERTA HANSARD 165 grow much further than 3.5 percent next year. You can quote the doomsayers all you want. This government knows that the growth rate will be above 3.5 percent; it will one of the strongest there is. Let me make it very clear. This government is opti mistic about the future. This government is blending policies which will ensure that . . . MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Minister of Agriculture, and the question had been raised by the Member for Vegreville, if the Chair remembers correctly. Federal Drought Assistance Program MR. ISLEY: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the hon.

Member for Vegreville raised a question wi th respect to a federal drought assistance program. I'm not sure why he's raising it in this Leg islature rather than discussing it with his Member of Parliament, who just happens to be the Minister of Agriculture for Canada. The program, for the clarification of the hon. member, that was announced for grain farmers last fall was announced by the fed eral government. Money has already flowed to some of the pro ducers from the federal government, and I would anticipate that they will fulfill their commitment to the agricultural community. MR.

FOX: The question was: what negotiations have gone on between the Alberta government and the federal government in Ottawa regarding cost sharing of this program? Because the federal government allocated a $425 million to $850 million commitment. I'd like to ask the Minister of Agriculture: is it this government's intention to use Alberta taxpayers' money to fund Brian Mulroney's election promises? Yes or no? MR. ISLEY: Mr. Speaker, may I repeat? The program was an nounced by the federal government. It is being delivered by the federal government. I'm assuming they're going to fulfill their commitments.

Since I've been the Minister of Agriculture for the province of Alberta, under my definition of negotiations, I would say my direct answer to your question is none. MR. SPEAKER: Now then, points of order. First, Minister of Advanced Education, followed by Edmonton-Jasper Place, fol lowed by Edmonton-Belmont, and who knows who else. Ad vanced Education. MR. GOGO: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rose during the ques tion period on the point of order with regard to a statement made by the hon.

Leader of the Official Opposition -- and I quote his words: "Why, again, were you lying to the people of Alberta?" -- in reference to a question to the hon. Premier. Far be it from me to cast any aspersions on the House, but it would appear al most as though this is becoming so regular in terms of this hon. member rising that it should almost perhaps be on the daily Routine. I am very concerned about the language used by the hon. member, under Beauchesne, both 489 and 492, but more importantly, Mr.

Speaker, that matter which most members of this House and certainly the hon. leader traditionally have fol lowed, and that's our own Standing Order 23(h), (i), and (j). So I would, with respect, bring it to your attention and request the hon. Leader of the Opposition to withdraw his unparliamentary language. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I know that the hon. member is upset when we bring the truth here. I was talking about these particular promises that have been dumped. I was not talking about him lying to the House. MR. SPEAKER: Forgive me, hon. Leader of the Opposition. [interjection] Order please.

Same difficulty with an exhibit in the House. Perhaps you could leave it on your desk, fold it up, and carry on with your point. But the specific issue is the un parliamentary language. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, the point -- I did not say that they were misleading or lying to this Assembly. I was talking about election promises, Mr. Speaker, and if they're not committed and people say it, what other term do you want me to use then? That's precisely what the people of Alberta understand. I was not doing it here in terms of misleading the Assembly. What I was doing was talking about election promises.

I think there's a big difference, and I think the hon. member knows that. MR. SPEAKER: Unfortunately, Leader of the Opposition, in a moment, having read the Blues, first you will see that indeed unparliamentary language was used. But let me also say that in the first two instances, because it came up three ways in your questions, you were careful enough and successful enough in crafting your words that you were within order when you said, "Why didn't you tell the truth during the election?" That was in the first and second questions.

By looking at the terms in Beauchesne, that appears to somehow be acceptable in those sets of terms, but in the last question it is not acceptable to say, "Why . . . were you lying to the people of Alberta?" So you were able to craft it in one sense in the first two but struck out on the third strike. So in that instance would the member be gracious enough as to withdraw it? MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I think there is a difference when you're talking to the people of Alberta and when you're talking in the Assembly. I'd like a ruling on that. But, Mr. Speaker, a lie is a lie.

If you're going to rule that that's unparliamentary, what they did to the people of Alberta, I'll say they were distort ing the truth, then, and withdraw "lying." MR. SPEAKER: I'm afraid, hon. member, "distorting" is also unparliamentary. MR. MARTIN: No, it isn't. MR. SPEAKER: Four ninety-two. [interjection] I'm sorry, hon. member; we're still with the leader. All right. MR. SIGURDSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. With respect, the sixth edition of Beauchesne,

section 491, states: The Speaker has consistently ruled that language used in the House should be temperate and worthy of the place in which it is spoken. No language is, by virtue of any list, acceptable or unacceptable. A word which is parliamentary in one context may cause disorder in another context, and therefore be unparliamentary. Now, in the list that follows under

section 492 I see both . . . The

preamble that goes before the list says: The following expressions are a partial listing of expressions which have caused intervention on the part of the Chair. Now, "distort" is there; "lie, liar, lied, lies, lying" are there. But

166 ALBERTA HANSARD June 9, 1989 it doesn't say "unparliamentary", Mr. Speaker. It's the preced ing list, under

section 490, that says it's unparliamentary, not under 492. So the interventions and unparliamentary language are two different things. MR. SPEAKER: Well, with due respect, hon. member, you've made your case in support of the Chair, thank you very much.

Section 491 has said: The Speaker has consistently ruled that language used in the House should be temperate and worthy of the place in which it is spoken. The Chair really does not feel that "lie" or "deliberately mis lead" fit within the category 491, thank you. And in 492 you see that the list is there in terms of interven tion, and indeed we are having interventions and there will be more interventions if these phrases continue to be used. For example, in the rest of question period the Member for Calgary-Buffalo was guilty of using the term "misleads." That will be called to order.

Again, the Member for Edmonton- Kingsway used the term "mislead"; that also we could call to order. And this indeed will be what the practice is as we get into week two of this particular sitting. The Chair has allowed a certain amount of leeway in terms of week one because of new members. Nevertheless, the offences are not being caused in the main by new members. Surely members of this House, I know, will take care to give some consideration over the weekend to more skillful ways of using the English language in terms of dealing with question period. MR. MARTIN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I could go down . . . MR.

SPEAKER: Order please, hon. member. Order please. [interjection] Order. The Chair is indeed willing to allow some slight amount more of debate to continue on the point, but that's about it. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, in view of your ruling -- I've got the book in front of me -- I'll withdraw "lying" and say that they deceived, debased; they were arrogant, ashamed of their past actions, depriving, dishonest . . . MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, hon. member. That is more than enough, and that is really not worthy of your office, I'm afraid. [interjections] Order please in all parts of the House.

The Chair recognizes Edmonton-Jasper Place on a point of order. MR. McINNIS: Thank, you, Mr. Speaker. My point is covered in many citations, but I think 409(5) of Beauchesne is the clearest The matter ought to be of some urgency.

There must be some present value in seeking the information during the Question Period rather than through the Order Paper or through cor respondence with the Minister or the department In question period the Member for Banff-Cochrane, not once, not twice, but three times asked for statistics on employment which, it just so happens, are in a news release issued by some body in the government today. In fact they all have them on their desks. I think these statistics are published by Statistics Canada, issued by a news release from the department.

Surely it isn't necessary to bump the rest of us off question period so they can be reiterated here during these proceedings. MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, if I may on that point of order. Surely we have heard time and time again that there is time for ministerial announcements after question period. I don't think it's deliberate, but maybe, Mr. Speaker, your kindness and tolerance with freshman MLAs asking the questions -- and they may be the only ones able to be talked into it by the minister, that should know better, to ask these puffball questions. But I would ask, Mr.

Speaker, that you rule occasionally that these things can be ministerial announcements after question period and not during question period, trying to bump the opposition off questions that are important. MR. EVANS: On this point, Mr. Speaker, with all due respect to the member; across the floor, the issues of employment are particularly important to the people of Banff-Cochrane. All em ployment in this province is an important issue. The members of the opposition have indicated on numerous occasions that it's one of their priorities.

I'm flabbergasted that the members of the opposition are not concerned enough to listen to this infor mation being made public in this House. [interjections] More importantly . . . MR. SPEAKER: All right. The tradition is to speak briefly to points of order, thank you, and also that they be heard without interruption. Banff-Cochrane is still there. Then there is Edmonton-Meadowlark, followed by Edmonton-Kingsway, and that will be sufficient on this matter. MR. EVANS: More importantly, Mr.

Speaker, because Banff- Cochrane is such a tourist area, we have an incredible number of students from this province and other areas in the country con verging on our constituency during the summer period. It's ex tremely important to the members of our constituency to know what is happening with student employment. MR. SPEAKER: Edmonton-Meadowlark, followed by Edmonton-Kingsway. MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to support my colleague from Edmonton-Jasper Place in his mo tion which, in a general sense, chastises back-bench government MLAs for diminishing the impact and wasting our time in ques tion period with what would perhaps be called frivolous or un necessary questions. I think it is very important for new mem bers of the Legislature, for back-bench government members who have been here before, to be reminded that question period plays a very significant role in the accountability process for government in this Legislature.

What I know about good government, about strong government about the kind of govern ment that perhaps this party once provided an awfully long time ago, is that it would not resist an opportunity for adequate and appropriate accountability but in fact would welcome such an opportunity because that kind of accountability does not make any government weaker; it makes it stronger. Therefore, I believe and I find that a number of the questions over the last six days in this Legislature from government MLA backbenchers have been highly inappropriate.

They have of fered an opportunity for blatant political propaganda on the part of ministers, and they have sought -- I'm getting to the point Mr. Speaker -- information that could better be sought and more appropriately be sought through other vehicles available to MLAs at this point. I offer motions on the Order Paper and

June 9, 1989 ALBERTA HANSARD 167 written questions, or personally go and talk to a minister. As for the Member for Banff-Cochrane's concern that he communicate publicly certain information to his constituents, a legitimate concern, a ministerial statement to that . . . MR. SPEAKER: Thank you for the advice and direction. Per haps you could wrap up the point of order. MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A ministerial statement after question period is still on cable TV and will still communicate that, but it will not take time from question period.

I think it is very, very important for a member like the Member for Banff-Cochrane and some of his colleagues earlier this week to understand that he only diminishes himself and diminishes his party by raising questions like that. Some of these questions, in fact . . . MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, hon. member. Let's not compli cate the process any more. Edmonton-Kingsway. MR. McEACHERN: I'll try to be brief, Mr. Speaker.

I think a lot has been said, but it's important to point out that no one is denigrating the importance of the unemployment statistics and certainly the need for jobs for people -- unfortunately, you've been accepting 8 and 10 percent unemployment as if it was ac ceptable -- nor the questions about China. These are important topics. We're talking about the manner in which they are intro duced into the House. Now, if there are some important questions that need to be answered for this Assembly, then fine, the opposition asks them.

But those are not important questions in the sense that they could not be stated perfectly clearly and perfectly adequately by a minister standing up and making a simple and short ministerial statement at the end of question period. Therefore, you waste a lot of question period time asking puffball questions, quite frankly, because there is no give and take there. You just ask a patsy question and he gives a patsy answer, and this goes on and on. There's far too much of that. MR.

SPEAKER: The original point of the point of order was with regard to whether the matter was of some urgency in terms of question period, and members raising that should also then take the same yardstick and apply it against their own questions no matter which part of the House they happen to be sitting in. In terms of the urgency with respect to the matter as raised con cerning employment statistics, this matter, the Chair assumes, was raised within the last day or two and therefore would seem to be a matter of current interest no matter which quarter of the House it would be raised in.

Therefore, the Chair does not re gard the original point of order as being valid. The additional comments that have taken place with regard to puffball questions, for example: again, some considerable thought should be given to those comments. In terms of the general flow of question period that has been redesigned, thanks to the input of the House leaders of all political parties, it now means that many more members are able to get into debate in terms of question period. All hon. members here are elected to represent their constituencies.

Whether they be government or from another political party, all members have the right, other than those on the front benches of the government, to raise ques tions with regard to the whole province let alone with regard to their own constituency. As I look at the statistics compiled by the Table as to those who have been able to get into question period from all political parties, the government members are far and away behind in terms of the actual numbers of questions raised.

For any member to make an assessment as to the quality of a question as raised from any quarter of the House is, indeed, that member's personal prerogative, and one is entitled to their own opinion. But in the opinion of the Chair now that we come to the end of about -- what? -- the sixth question period, I really believe the whole process has been greatly enhanced and allows many more members to get in. Especially with regard to new members of the House, they would get in,

whereas oftentimes they would probably have to wait weeks before they would be allowed an opportunity to start to develop their own skills with regard to question period. The comments with regard to ministerial statements. The Chair has no control over directing the government to issue a ministerial statement. That is within the prerogative of the government. Thank you, hon. members. Perhaps now we can go to Edmonton-Belmont on a point of order. MR. SIGURDSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My point of or der relates to the same matter but under a different

section of Beauchesne. It's

section 410(5): The primary purpose of the Question Period is the seeking of information and calling the Government to account Mr. Speaker, I would submit that the information was readily available in the minister's office. This morning I went over and collected it, and here I hold the unemployment statistics for the month of May. One would wonder why the hon. Member for Banff-Cochrane couldn't do the same. Now, in his . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, hon. member. The point of or der that you are now raising under another

section clearly relates back to what the Chair has just ruled on. I'm sorry; this is out of order. MR. SIGURDSON: I made that statement . . . MR. SPEAKER: I'm sorry, hon. member; it's out of order. Now, earlier in an exchange between the Leader of the Op position and the Chair, the Chair was intemperate in its remarks in response to the fact that the Leader of the Opposition then started to read down a number of terms. The Chair overreacted to the fact that that was far too many terms to be sort of read out all of a sudden.

Therefore, the Chair made some comments with regard to the Leader of the Opposition and his office, and the Chair with respect and sincerity apologizes to the Leader of the Opposition. head: MOTIONS UNDER STANDING ORDER 40 MR. SPEAKER: Under Standing Order 40, the Chair recog nizes the Member for Vegreville. MR. FOX: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The motion, I believe, has been distributed to all members of the Assembly for them to assess the urgency of it. If I may just read it again before com menting briefly on the urgency:

Be it resolved that the Legislative Assembly pay tribute to the

168 ALBERTA HANSARD June 9, 1989 hardworking farm families of Alberta for their significant con tributions to our province's past, present, and future on this special day observed in rural communities throughout Alberta as Farmers' Day.

I think it fair to say, without going on at length, that regard less of the political party in the House, all hon. members in this Legislative Assembly recognize the importance of farm families to our province's economy, recognize that this great province was built and developed as a result of the hard work of our pioneers, and we share a commitment to work together to de velop policies.

I think that because today is Farmers' Day -- it's being recognized throughout rural communities in the province, celebrated, in fact, by school holidays in some communities -- it is appropriate for this Assembly to approve this motion today. MR. SPEAKER: The Member for Vegreville has put to the House the request for unanimous consent. All those in favour of granting consent, please say aye. HON. MEMBERS: Aye. MR. SPEAKER: Opposed, please say no. The motion carries. Speaking to the motion, hon. member, if there are additional comments to be made. MR. FOX: Well, again, Mr. Speaker, it is Farmers' Day.

I know there are a number of rural members in this Assembly that would dearly love to be out with their constituents attending the various functions -- ball games, parades, barbecues, et cetera -- to help local people celebrate Farmers' Day and pay tribute to people. But alas, we have an overriding public responsibility that requires us to be in the House. For that reason, I bring the motion to the House so all hon. members have a chance to ex press their appreciation of farm families in Alberta. MR. ELZINGA: Mr.

Speaker, might I, too, pay a word of trib ute on behalf of our two ministers of Agriculture by way of the news release they issued today recognizing the important role our agricultural community does play to the way of life in the province of Alberta. We underscore that by recognizing today is Farmers' Day, so that all Albertans will recognize the out standing contribution that is made by a very important segment of our society. We pay tribute to them in a very sincere and tan gible way today, this Friday. MR. HYLAND: Mr.

Speaker, just to repeat some of the words of the minister of economic development and as chairman of the caucus committee on agriculture, I'd like to support the motion. I well remember this holiday a number of years ago when I was in school and I thought how unfair. The city kids got to think about agriculture, got to remember agriculture, got a day off. We got a day off from school to go to work on the farm. I see some over there nodding their heads. I guess there were others that were in the same predicament.

As time goes on, it becomes something more than an extra working day on the farm, and in many areas of the province there is occasion to celebrate. I would like to lend my support to the passing of this motion. MR. SPEAKER: Westlock-Sturgeon. MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too, would like to add a voice to the well-crafted motion by the hon.

Member for Vegreville and its support by the government benches, and also to express my party's support and tribute for what farming has done and what farm families have done for Alberta, but possibly also to do more than just thank farmers and farm families for the past and for the present. Really, we would be breaking faith with them if we didn't also dedicate ourselves to the preserva tion of the family farm and, maybe more important, the preser vation of number 1, 2, and 3 farmland, the very asset any coun try in the world would give eyeteeth to have, what we have here in Alberta.

Yet on the idea of short-term gain, whether it's gas plants or industry or a town, the government and maybe some of us in (he opposition also are guilty of often forgetting the real dedication we must have to preserving food-producing land into the future and the family farm. MR. SIGURDSON: Mr. Speaker, ever so briefly, because I'm one of the city kids who had the time off and haven't had the opportunity to go out into rural Alberta to celebrate, along with my rural colleagues, the barbecues and the picnics and the pa rades that go on to celebrate Farmers' Day.

So as an urban member I want to congratulate the hon. member for moving the motion, but also more importantly, to thank the farmers of our province for providing us with the quality of life we enjoy in the city. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Is there a call for the question? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. [Motion carried] ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Might we have unanimous consent to revert briefly to the Introduction of Special Guests. HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS (reversion) MR. ELZINGA: Mr.

Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I have the opportunity to introduce a group of 59 school students from the Jean Vanier school in Sherwood Park. They are here with their teachers Sister Beaudoin and Jim Ziebart. May I in dicate to them on a very personal basis my deepest regret that I'll not be able to have a photograph with them, because I'm supposed to be at the official opening of Visionwall Tech nologies at 11:30. Because of the proceedings, it's been delayed somewhat.

But I do wish to indicate to them our warmest wel come here in the Legislative Assembly and to leave them with the assurance that we are going to send them each an individual photograph to commemorate their visit. I would ask if they would stand and receive the warm welcome of this Legislative Assembly. head: GOVERNMENT MOTIONS 4. Moved by Mr. Johnston:

Be it resolved that the Legislative Assembly approve in general the fiscal policies of the government.

June 9, 1989 ALBERTA HANSARD 169 [Adjourned debate June 8: Mr. Martin] MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, it's going to be fun to deal with this budget. There's so many holes in it, I don't think we'll run into any problems in terms of parliamentary language. First of all, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to be positive right at the start. As I did last year, I always appreciate the performance of the Provincial Treasurer. He can take an indefensible case and talk a lot. Pretty soon you wonder what he's talking about, but he does it very well. So I say again that listening to him last night, he read that budget extremely well.

In fact, I'd give him an A-plus for reading well. I also always appreciate the Provin cial Treasurer's enthusiasm. Even what he's saying, he always looks animated and, as I say, he does it with enthusiasm. So as they do on a report card, I would give him another A-plus for showing enthusiasm on the job. Mr. Speaker, I notice that his colleagues on the government side usually pound hard in the Treasurer's speech, and they usually pound hard when he gives his philosophical commitments here in the Legislature. So I think I'd give him a B-plus for getting along well with his colleagues. I guess though, Mr.

Speaker, we have to get to the crux of what this budget is all about. As I said earlier, I believe this is a totally, totally dishonest budget, and I say to you -- there's no other way you can say it -- that they did not keep the promises during this election. As I noted in question period, those were commitments, a whole page, given to the people of Alberta. Now, if that's not a pledge or promise, I don't know what it is then. Does that mean that in election campaigns we say any thing, do anything, put anything out in the paper, and it doesn't mean anything?

That should be an absolute, solemn promise to the people of Alberta. If you can't do that, you should not promise it, and people would respect that type of honesty. Be cause to come back to what I was talking about, there's that cynicism developing about politicians. And this is one of the reasons, and we've seen it in the last three elections in this province. We saw it in '86 with this government, we've seen it just recently with the federal government, and now we're seeing it again with the provincial government. How else are you go ing to expect people to react, Mr.

Speaker, if you can't even be lieve election promises? Now, I'd just like to quote again what was said, what those promises were, from this form. It says: In fact, because of Alberta's economic strength, Don Getty says, "There is only one direction Alberta taxes will take, and that direction is down. How could you be any clearer on a commitment than that? In fact, as I'll point out later and I did in question period, the oppo site has happened. The new commitments will not interfere with Alberta's plan for a balanced budget. Mr.

Speaker, 10 weeks later they come back in here and say: Whoops, just a minor mistake; it's going to be at least another year before we can look forward to a balanced budget. I say to you that surely they knew that 10 or 11 weeks ago. Why put it out if you didn't intend to follow it? Or, and I quote: Alberta's fiscal management plan will result in balanced budgets by 1991. Again, the same point must be made. Now they're not going to follow that commitment. It's now up to 1992, and I doubt that it's ever going to come about, frankly, unless they change their particular policy. Now, the point I want to make, Mr.

Speaker, is this. These are not promises that our Premier made orally. These are not promises that could have possibly been misquoted, because I know this government always says they're misquoted. This is a paid political ad by the party, so they can't be misquoted on it. They are promises that appeared in black and white in full-page Conservative election ads that appeared across this province. And these promises have been broken in this budget -- there's absolutely no doubt about that -- firstly, because taxes didn't go down. In fact, the only way they went was up -- at least some of those taxes.

It's increased taxes on medicare premiums, a regressive tax. Call it what you want, but it's a regressive tax. It's increased taxes on tobacco. I'm not debating whether that's an appropriate tax or not, but the fact is if there was a commit ment made there would be no taxes. It's laid out increases in fees for government services and permits and, I think, above all, what was supposed to be a temporary tax in 1987. It certainly did not eliminate the remaining portion of what was to be a tem porary surtax on personal income. Mr.

Speaker, that's clear, that's happened, so that's a break ing of promises no matter what you want to call it, whatever name you want to give to it. That's clear. Secondly, the government, black and white again, has abandoned its plan to eliminate the deficit by 1991. You know, people thought they could have the best of all worlds. They could have all these bizarre campaign promises from the Premier, balance the books and lower taxes. Well, we could call it Magic Getty or Magic Johnston if they could do that, because the reality, as we in the opposition knew, was that that was impossible.

But they didn't tell people that. Again: say anything, do anything during an election, but above all, have your real agenda after. Now, Mr. Speaker, the figures in the Budget Address are used to mislead the people of Alberta about the size of this year's combined budgetary deficit. It was brought up by my colleague from Calgary-Mountain View. Interesting that they changed it this year. All the times before, the capital projects spending to the General Revenue Fund deficit was included. All of a sudden -- whoops, Magic Johnston goes again -- it's not there; different figures. Well, why would they do this?

Why would you fudge the figures like this, other than not wanting to get the truth out to the people of Alberta how bad our finances are? The combined deficit is actually $1.63 billion in this next year, not the $1.49 billion noted in the budget speech. [Mr. Deputy Speaker in the Chair] They are now talking about balancing the budget in 1991-92. As an aside, just before I get into that, I'm always amazed by this Conservative government, the rhetoric they use. You know, I thought this was supposed to be a fiscally responsible govern ment, a conservative government, Mr. Speaker.

But you notice in the rhetoric when you go through that budget, when they jus tify things, it's always how much they're spending. Always how much: why we spend the most in Canada, why we spend the most in the world. They never talk about the bang for the buck or the quality of service; it's just how much money they're dishing out. But that doesn't surprise me, because the programs are not being well run. We are fiscally irresponsible, and it doesn't matter how much money you throw at a problem if you haven't got it together. That's the reality. But let's look, Mr. Speaker.

They're still talking about balancing the budget by 1991-92. Well, if this is to happen with

170 ALBERTA HANSARD June 9, 1989 the route that this government's taking now with this budget, then I suggest the real hidden agenda will come about even more dramatically than now. Remember in 1986, you cam paigned on something. All of a sudden our fiscal problems were greater than we anticipated. All of a sudden we had to have cut backs and a billion dollar tax-grab from Alberta families. Un foreseen circumstances, Mr. Speaker. Well, I'd remind you now that our deficit is a heck of a lot bigger than it was back then. So I say the leopard hasn't changed its spots. We're going to pay the price down the line.

I don't think there's any doubt about that. So the people are well aware that this is merely a stopgap budget and one that attempts to hide the government's real agenda for the future. As I pointed out, Mr. Speaker, just as the government waited for one year to pass after the 1986 election to hammer Albertans with a billion dollar tax-grab, complete with cuts to vital people services, they know this will happen again. The people of Al berta are not going to believe them again. Surely as night fol lows day, this is coming.

When we look at the figures of the government, it's interesting, with the consolidated debt -- people aren't aware of this, but since 1986-87 to the present time under this great, fiscally responsible government, our consolidated debt is close to $10 billion at the end of this budget year. That's a lot of money. That's almost a whole year's budget, and that's not talking about what the Member for Edmonton-Glengarry was talking about; the pension funds aren't even included in there. Now, I recognize they don't all come due at once, but we have some serious problems, Mr. Speaker.

And all the rose- coloured glasses and all the optimistic talk and all the rosy projections do not take away that fact that we have a con solidated debt of almost $10 billion. Our combined deficit is over $8 billion in those periods of time. Mr. Speaker, to come back to the theme I wanted to talk about and flow into that Before we get to that, though, are the broken promises. The government says: we haven't broken any promises. Well, let me just remind them of a few. On February 17 this government promised -- promised, Mr.

Speaker -- an enhanced crop insurance program for Alberta farmers, a promise that was not repeated. It was not repeated in the June 1 Speech from the Throne, and for good reason. Their federal cousins who also made promises have reneged on theirs. The federal government now has reduced its commitment to crop insurance by $100 million a year, $25 million dollars of which will be taken from Alberta. I say to you that there is no provision in this budget to make up those lost moneys, so we can safely say that this promise has gone right out the window like so many other Conservative promises. Mr.

Speaker, the government also promised on February 17 an $80 million matching funds endowment for advanced educa tion in this fiscal year. Well, lo and behold, that $80 million has now become a commitment worth only $8 million. Only $8 million this year. Is that breaking your promise? I guess you can judge for yourself. The December financial update delivered by the Provincial Treasurer is another broken promise, a promise that $270 mil lion in federal stabilization payments would be applied to the 1988-89 budget Do you remember that? Well, we find now that this is only $75 million. Surprise, surprise.

Is that a broken promise? It was put out in the financial statement in December. Can you judge? He goes on to say that Alberta is expecting the remaining $195 million in the 1989-90 fiscal year. But I would remind this government and this Provincial Treasurer that this payment appears nowhere in the federal budget. Remember, they just had a budget. You'd think if that was an expense they'd agreed to, the $195 million, it would be in their budget Nothing in there, Mr. Speaker. So where is he going to get it? Out of thin air?

The point I make is that these are just a few examples of this government's broken promises and dishonesty. [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] In the environment, Mr. Speaker, the budget also reflects this government's broken promises on protecting the environment. While the budget for environmental impact assessment review has increased by 27 percent to $460,000, there's absolutely no commitment to help ordinary Albertans effectively make their own case in defence of their health and their own environment.

There's lots there for the companies, lots there for the govern ment to get the technical help; nothing for average people that are concerned about the environment. This government obvi ously doesn't care that it's important that people be given the tools they need to participate fully in decisions that have a pro found impact on their lives. Mr. Speaker, I would remind this government that that is the essence of a democratic society. Now, during the election we tried to lay out, we think in a very responsible way, an alternative to the way this government was going.

We knew we couldn't follow the Conservative ex ample and make wild promises as we went around the province, that we knew would have to be broken and the government knew would have to be broken. Instead we presented well- reasoned priorities that addressed the real needs of Albertans. Our agenda included detailed plans and how we could pay for our commitments without increasing the budget deficit. And we were the only party that even attempted to do that.

These commitments, just to bring them back to members' attention, included a 3, 6, 9 farm interest rate program to help farmers survive the serious farm debt crisis. We included a plan to restore educational funding that has been ravaged by inflation and government cuts, while eliminating user fees and taking responsibility for 85 percent for the cost of education. I'd re mind this government that if education is pushed onto the local taxpayers, it's still the same taxpayers. We're not saving any thing.

We also talked about establishing high-quality child care worker training standards and providing the means for worker skill upgrading. We put in a program to remove gender-based wage discrimination in the public service and Crown corpora tions through a comprehensive and affordable pay equity initia tive. We also talked about the establishment of a primary health care trust fund to examine affordable health care delivery op tions, ensuring that Alberta will meet the health care challenges of the future. And we said how we would pay for them. We meant what we said then, Mr.

Speaker, and we would have brought this here, not the broken promises we've got from this government through two elections. Above all in this last provincial election, Mr. Speaker, we talked about tax fairness. Taken together, the figures from the Provincial Treasurer from the past three budget years show that personal income taxes accounted for 95.5 percent of total gov ernment income tax revenue, with corporate income taxes add ing up to a tiny 4.5 percent. When this government came to power there was at least some semblance of fairness.

There was roughly 60 percent that came from individuals and 40 percent from the corporations. But we've gone steadily the other way. These figures are the net of the tax credits available to individ-

June 9, 1989 ALBERTA HANSARD 171 ual and corporate tax filers. This is the only fair way to look at this, and this is a statement not just coming from the Leader of the Opposition but a statement made many times -- many times -- by the Provincial Auditor. The budget read to us last night makes no progress, no pro gress at all, Mr. Speaker, in righting this wrong. This im balance, frankly, remains scandalous, and I can tell you that av erage taxpayers are upset about it.

We showed during the provincial election campaign that fair taxes would not only fund our campaign commitments but would allow the government to extend a child tax credit of $525 per child to families with aver age income. We talk about families. That's action, Mr. Speaker; that would have given them a few extra dollars to deal with toughening economic times. That's something that could have been done if there was any political will towards the family.

Fair taxation includes large, profitable corporations paying their share, not taxing them out of business but getting into fo cus with what's happening in other parts of Canada and the world. Even in the United States -- Ronald Reagan, the darling of the Conservatives -- all corporations have to pay a minimum tax, Mr. Speaker. And that's a point we made during the elec tion campaign. It also includes a direction of the Alberta royalty tax credit, and focusing that to those companies which have a genuine need for it, the smaller independent Canadian com panies.

This measure alone would save the people of Alberta about $220 million a year, and that isn't chicken feed. Now, Mr. Speaker, let's look at the deficit and the debt. I've said this many times, but it bears repeating: why do we have it? Well, we have it because of this Conservative ideology of this government. You know, I've sat in this Legislature, and I'm always amazed that if you say certain words, how excited these people get. "Privatization": they shake with excitement.

The only thing that gets them more excited is when they say "deregulation." Well, we talked about it, and I say to you that what happened in the price of oil and gas was the absolute and total triumph of ideology over common sense, Mr. Speaker. I can remember sitting in here, and all the Conservatives and their friends in big oil: Oh, we've got to have deregulation; deregulation of oil will solve all our problems; we'll be prosperous beyond all our wildest dreams. And I remember that all of a sudden they went and got it; they got deregulation.

But even if you're a fervent Conservative that believes in deregula tion, surely you use a modicum of common sense. That's why I wasn't, as you may recall, one that supported the Western Ac cord; we'd checked with economists, and almost every one of them said it looked like the price of oil was going down. Now, for the life of me -- in 1980-81, when over 51 percent of our budget came from oil and gas, why we would want to go into deregulation when the price was going down evaded me. Shrewd business types, Mr. Speaker, shrewd. And we've paid the price all the way through since then.

That's why, during the '86 election, whenever I'm asked -- you know, they talk about the national energy program. Noth ing could have been worse than what happened after deregula tion. Not that the national energy program was a bad one, but this has decimated us even worse. The point that I make . . . [interjection] Well, if the hon. member looks, 51 percent of our budgets -- take a look at our provincial revenues since 1981 and you'll see. Just do that as your own little lesson, hon. member, the new one. Take a look at it and see how much money we've lost.

So deregulation has been an unqualified disaster for our provincial revenues. Mr. Speaker, they used to talk a lot about diversification when they had the money rolling in. They didn't do it. But more important, panic time: how do we get the economy rolling once the revenues stop flowing and all the rest of it? Well, I guess we shovel out money to the corporations; they're our friends, and they'll do all these sorts of things for us. In that period from 1981 up to 1987, over $12 billion was given away. Wouldn't it be nice to have some of that back now? Did you see all the job creation that flowed from that?

I certainly didn't. So when this government starts to orchestrate and blame every body else for living high on the hog, let's remember, hon. mem bers, where this deficit and this debt came from. The blame rests with this government, Mr. Speaker, right here in this Legis lature. That's the reality of it. Now, because of that, there is no doubt that we now have serious problems. It looks like they're going to get worse with this budget we've just talked about. Mr. Speaker, they talk about a fiscal plan. A fiscal plan. What a joke that is: a floundering government with its fiscal plan.

Well, I call the fiscal plan the rose-coloured glasses phenomenon: see no evil, hear no evil, everything's rosy. The other thing I would call it is our OPEC strategy. We get down on our knees every day and pray that somehow the sheikhs in the Middle East are going to pull us out of the doldrums. Be honest. That's their fiscal strategy in this province with this government. That's the reality of it; there's no mistake about that. I say to you, as brought up earlier in question period, does anybody really believe anymore the Treasurer's predictions on revenue?

You know, in '86-87 he said we'd have $3.4 billion or $4 billion. I could go on, but he was 48 percent out that time. In '87-88, as my colleague pointed out, we did a little better on the other side: 45 percent. We're only 127 percent out now. I say to the Treasurer, with his projections he's made since he's been Treasurer, I hope and I pray he doesn't go into the psychic business, because we are going to be in a great deal of difficulty, at least those people who believe in psychics. Mr. Speaker, his predictions have been wildly, wildly inac curate.

And he's saying now -- I'm interested the Minister of Energy is here, because wasn't it just a couple of weeks ago I read that the Minister of Energy went down to New York to talk to the pooh-bahs there and get an idea of where things were going? He came back and said whoa, it doesn't look too good in the next year; prices could go down; that's what all the people in New York are saying. Now all of a sudden in the budget they're changing their tune. They're wildly optimistic.

As pointed out many times -- and we did during the election -- the Conference Board of Canada and most other indicators aren't nearly as rosy as this government. We're encouraged too, Mr. Speaker, that the unemployment rate is down, because it's human faces on that unemployment rate. But if they want to base it on that, if they want to base all this recovery on those budget figures this month, they are going to live and die by those figures as it goes up in the future, be cause that's what most people are predicting.

It's going to hap pen right across Canada, and they'll remember the stands they were pounding, I assure you of that. Mr. Speaker, I recognize that there is a problem with the deregulated market they asked for, trying to predict what's go ing to happen with the price of oil. It's very difficult. In that I give some sympathy to the Treasurer. But I think he always tries to put on his rose-coloured classes and make the best out of it to get through this budget. He was wildly wrong last time,

172 ALBERTA HANSARD June 9, 1989 Mr. Speaker, and it wouldn't surprise me if he's wildly wrong again. But even if he's right, our deficit is still going to be ex tremely high. It's like a crapshoot, though. If he's wrong, it's even going to be worse. So even in the best of situations, even if he's dead on, we have serious economic problems. And that's why I do not trust this Conservative government. I've watched them. I've sat here and watched them.

Just as in '86 they had a hidden agenda, and got around to it in '87, I say when I look at a close to $10 billion consolidated debt, does the average Albertan really believe that these people are not going to be back at you with severe cuts in people services and tax hikes at ordinary people? I think Albertans know this full well. Mr. Speaker, I'm going to watch Magic Johnston balance the books, lower taxes, and enhance people services over the next two or three years. It's going to be an amazing thing to watch. We're going to watch for that hidden agenda that started in this budget and this throne speech.

We're going to be vigilant, be cause no longer can this government believe that Albertans are just going to follow them like a bunch of sheep into the next election. They're watching them very closely this time. I say to you, Mr. Speaker, that we in the Official Opposition look forward to this debate about this budget which has started on the road to broken promises and, I suggest, will continue in the future. Not even Magic Johnston, with all the gobbledygook in the world, is going to be able to pull them out of this one. I thank you for your time here in the Legislature today. MR.

SPEAKER: The Minister of Advanced Education, fol lowed by the Member for Edmonton-Glengarry. MR. GOGO: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I welcome the opportunity of speaking to Motion 4:

Be it resolved that the . . . Assembly approve in [principle] the fiscal policies of the government. Mr. Speaker, to have the opportunity of speaking in the budget debate is, I think, always an honour. It becomes more of an honour when one gets to follow the Leader of the Official Opposition and has the opportunity of taking issue with various comments -- and I guess that's what debate is about, Mr. Speaker -- by other members of the House, particularly the Leader of the Opposition who, I think, had perhaps the ideal speech. I don't know who prepared it. But his timing, with respect, was all wrong.

Here we have a classic example. I would begin by saying the one thing I agree with the hon. opposition leader on is the way he's rated the Alberta Provincial Treasurer. He's given him two A-pluses and a B-plus. I would concur, Mr. Speaker, with the Leader of the Opposition, because that's how I rate our Provincial Treasurer two A-pluses plus a B-plus. And I'm sure all members of the House would agree with that. MR. FOX: No, it's three A-pluses, John. MR. GOGO: I believe, Mr. Speaker, there's been an amend ment by the Member for Vegreville to make it three A-pluses. Well, Mr.

Speaker, there are many members who are not pre pared ever to accept the verdict of the people of Alberta, and surely March 20 decided in a very substantive and substantial way what the people of Alberta thought about the various politi cal parties running. The Leader of the Official Opposition has made a variety of comments, and I would like, with your per mission, Mr. Speaker, to respond to some of them. [Mr.

Deputy Speaker in the Chair] First of all, I heard so often such terms as "the working Al bertan," whatever the working Albertan is, as though it's some how exclusively within the domain of the Alberta New Demo cratic Party. Today we hear now about "the average Albertan." Now, I again, Mr. Speaker, have some difficulty with that word "average," the average Albertan, as though it's the exclusive domain of one of the political parties of the House. The word "average" can be very dangerous, as was evidenced a few years ago in my own constituency.

We have the famous -- or in famous, depending on your political affiliation -- Oldman River. It has, most of the time, an average depth of 18 inches. Now, most people would understand averages are made up of a variety of highs and lows. But this one particular individual of no known political persuasion -- at least I'm not going to quote it -- accepted the average and walked across the Oldman River, which had an average depth of 18 inches. His body was found a week later. He fell in an eight-foot hole because he was sold on this matter of averages.

And today we've heard from the Leader of the Opposition: the average Albertan. Well, I have some difficulty in understanding what is meant by that term "average." Now, much has been said -- and I would concur with the Leader of the Official Opposition. I mean, elections come and elections go and promises are made. I don't question that. In the maritimes, Mr. Speaker, when the stakes go up along the highway, you know an election's coming. When the stakes are taken down, you know the election's over. Now, we're not that way in Alberta at all.

I think we say on the hustings when we're seeking the mandate of the people: "Here is our offer. This is what, if we're elected, we're prepared to do." And I challenge . . . MR. McEACHERN: No tax increases. MR. GOGO: . . . I challenge the Member for Kingsway, and others, Mr. Speaker, to point out -- and I want to come to his comment in particular, and I hope Hansard shows that he has recently shouted with a cupped hand "taxes"; I want to refer to that in just a moment -- what the government has responded in the Provincial Treasurer's budget last night. I learned a long time ago . . .

I've been around this Assembly -- in some peo ple's opinion too long; but it's 14 years. I recognized in a very significant way what happens when you get your . . . in the wringer; you know, when you get your head out, and you're hanging on that limb. And here we have a classic example of the Leader of the Opposition, who has yet to learn that he who lives by the crystal ball has to learn to eat ground glass, because he has campaigned and maintained that certain things would happen in the province, and they haven't happened.

Now, today, whoever prepared that speech, they've got the right speech for the wrong province, and certainly at the wrong time. He talks about the hidden agenda. Well, with 14 years in the House not being in cabinet, I always wondered about a hidden agenda. I thought, "Here I am in cabinet; I'm going to find a hidden agenda." Mr. Speaker, there is no hidden agenda. I mean, I can't find a hidden agenda, and these inferences are continually made that the government -- so-called big, bad gov ernment -- has a hidden agenda.

I don't know what they're re ferring to, but I want to comment on some very specific allega tions made.

June 9, 1989 ALBERTA HANSARD 173 For example, the Leader of the Official Opposition said the throne speech, February 17, talked about, and I quote, "enhanced crop insurance." He turns right around and in the next breath says the government has failed to deliver or to main tain, the inference being that they're doing away with it.

The hon. member knows full well, certainly on the advice of the Member for Vegreville, who's an expert as the opposition critic of agriculture, that the agreement on the crop insurance is in place for five years, cannot be changed by any party unless it's agreed to by all parties -- that's in place -- 50 percent paid by the federal government, 50 percent by the farmers in former premiums, and the administrative costs picked up by the prov ince of Alberta. It cannot be changed, and yet the hon. leader said this morning, and I'll check the Blues, that the government has failed to deliver on doing something.

That's already in place. I would question the advice the hon. leader is getting. Mr. Speaker, reference was made to the environment. As the first province in Canada to have a Department of the Environ ment, as, I believe, a province that has maintained over so many years the cleanest air and cleanest water in the country, refer ence was made a few minutes ago that this budget did not refer to or spend money on the Department of the Environment. And very clearly in there -- maybe a 9 percent increase is not enough for some people.

Nine percent is a pretty meaningful increase when inflation is running at 3.5 percent. That's in last night's budget: a 9 percent increase in terms of environmental protec tion. Reference was made that you didn't help the farmers; "you," I assume, being this government. Yet very clearly in the budget speech there is $600 million committed directly to the farmers of this province. Then, Mr. Speaker, there is much said about families and no reference to families. Well, in last night's budget speech -- I don't know what the hon. leader's definition of family is, but here we have health care expenditures.

I know of nothing closer to family than health care. There will be more than $3.5 billion, or $4,100 per household, in Alberta. Now, if that's not commit ment, Mr. Speaker, to healthy families, I don't know what is. Secondly, there's a 44 percent increase in home care. A 44 per cent increase in anything is significant but particularly with re gard to home care and our seniors. A new home improvement program for senior citizens and now a total commitment to about 200,000 Albertans who are senior citizens of over a bil lion dollars: I don't know of another province in Canada that does that.

A 24 percent -- that's one-quarter -- increase in fund ing for women's shelters. And for those dedicated Albertans who take on other people's responsibilities as foster parents, there's a 10 percent increase. Finally -- and this zeros directly in on the Member for Edmonton-Norwood, who was very criti cal of the day care system in Alberta -- an increase of more than 20 percent in the day care subsidy rate for low-income parents. Now, Mr. Speaker, if that's not an indication of a govern ment that cares, I don't know what is.

To have the opposition this morning, in response to the Provincial Treasurer's budget speech last night, be critical, I don't know what else could be done. Assuming he's talking about increased funding, what else could be done? No, Mr. Speaker, I have some great difficulty with the hon. Leader of the Opposition's comments by way of criticism. I don't argue that in other places and other times his remarks may be appropriate, but he sure miscued this morning by bringing them before this House by way of criticism. Let me summarize, Mr.

Speaker, because I know there are many who would like to get into this debate, some of the com ments related to last evening's budget. Reference was made to a government that was not balancing its budget. I think the Treas urer was fair to us and said that our intent was to have a fiscal plan in place in such a way that we would balance the budget by a given time. Now, government had to make a decision. Are services to Albertans more important than a balanced budget or not? The judgment of the government was that delivery of serv ices was more important.

So now the Treasurer is suggesting it will be another year before there is a balanced budget. Is that so bad? I think that's honesty, Mr. Speaker. We should be proud of the Treasurer, who is prepared to say to the people of Alberta, "It's going to take us a little longer, but our commitment is still there; we will balance this budget." On page 12 of the address, Mr. Speaker, a very significant item, because again, the Leader of the Opposition referred to it, and that was interest that we pay out. I draw hon. members' attention to the fact that, sure, we've had to borrow.

How are we going to operate without having the resources? The only alternative is increased taxes. Yet as one can see by the chart on that page, we have a government of Canada which is paying some 35 percent of its revenue in the form of interest on debt, other provinces at 12 percent, and Alberta at 8. In other words, other provinces are 50 percent higher. Now, nobody likes to pay interest for anything; we all like to receive it. But surely in terms of carrying out governmental responsibilities and having programs in place, if you run short of money, obviously you must borrow it.

So it's interesting to note that the amount paid out by Alberta compared to other jurisdictions is substantially lower than other parts of the country. Reference was made -- I heard, I believe, from the hon. Member for Edmonton-Kingsway -- about no increase in taxes or an increase in taxes. I rose myself today on that very point. An hon. member was accusing the Premier and others of lying to the House about increase in taxes, and let's reiterate very clearly a couple of points. Alberta has always had and perhaps always will continue to have the lowest personal income tax in the country.

I think that's an honour we can all be proud of, Mr. Speaker. Now, in this year's budget there was no increase in income taxes. The hon. members across the way want to relate a tobacco tax. Why don't they talk about booze? Why don't they talk about alcohol? It's indexed now by Ottawa. Because it goes up, are we guilty of raising the taxes? To attempt to use the argument -- like, if Edmonton Transit must raise their fares, is that an increase in taxes? The government of Alberta has raised fees and licences. What's so unusual about that?

Surely that's a necessary cost to doing business, and you don't equate that to raising income taxes. Health care premiums have gone up, but we continue to call it the Alberta health care insurance plan, the operative word being "insurance." As long as we deem to have an insurance plan, is it unrealistic to have a premium? I recognize that we are only one of three provinces that have premiums. The point is that we have a premium, and there's been a increase in the pre mium of about 10 percent. Now, for an hon. member to equate that to an increase in taxes is really stretching it, Mr. Speaker.

I think, finally, the proof of the pudding is obviously in the eating when the statement is made -- and it's true that an Alberta fam ily pays about $1,350 less in provincial tax than a comparable family in Ontario. That's got to be meaningful. I'm surprised there's not a huge lineup waiting to get into Alberta just because of the low personal income taxes. So in

summary, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to say, as the MLA for

174 ALBERTA HANSARD June 9, 1989 Lethbridge-West, how proud I am of my colleague the hon. Member for Lethbridge-East, Dick Johnston, our Provincial Treasurer, who had a very difficult time in these very unpredict able times in terms of nonrenewable resource revenue, who had not only the courage, not only the tenacity, but the honesty to put together a very meaningful budget that's going to take us not only through 1989-90 but into the '90s and on toward the 21st century.

We can be very proud indeed, I believe, of having a Provincial Treasurer who is up-front, who is honest, and in very responsible terms puts a working plan in terms of economic and fiscal policies for this province for the years ahead. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. DECORE: Mr. Speaker, the first observations I'd like to make have already been referred to by members of the opposi tion. I think they're worthy of being highlighted, underscored: the issue of the jiggery-pokery involved in the way numbers are used in one financial statement and then changed in the next financial statement.

I think it's pretty clear from the financial plan in the last Budget Address the Provincial Treasurer spoke to and spoke from, when he talked about a combined deficit of $835 million, which was adjusted by $500 million and ended up being adjusted again. He included in that financial plan on page 23 of his 1988 address heritage fund capital projects of $164 million. Very conveniently those figures in the debt column for heritage fund capital projects are not included.

You can only come to one conclusion, and the conclusion is that the Provin cial Treasurer has done everything in his power, along with the government, to minimize what we all know is a debt that's to tally out of control. But that's jiggery-pokery; that's not the proper accounting way to do things. You know, if there was another year that passed, perhaps some of us wouldn't have no ticed this. But this is so clear, so blatant that it has to be underscored.

When you add this to the fact that our own Auditor General -- and I talked about this before -- and the Institute of Chartered Accountants, by way of memo from a special committee of theirs, says that we should be including unfunded liabilities in sofar as they relate to pensions in our statement of assets and liabilities, we are in very big trouble. It doesn't matter how rosy a picture the Provincial Treasurer attempts to paint; the fact is that we are in trouble. The deficit is out of control. The plan isn't there to show the kind of way we're going to wrestle down this deficit.

The other observation from the 1988 address is that the Provincial Treasurer at least attempted with some words and figures to show that there was a plan for deficit control. In the 1989 address, Mr. Speaker, there is almost no reference to any kind of a plan for deficit control. It breaks down, comes down to a trust-me scenario: trust me; everything's going to be okay; we're going to get lots of moneys from energy revenues, and we're going to be able to come through this problem all right. Well, the government's track record is not good in that regard. So the first point, Mr.

Speaker, is that the financial state ments themselves are suspect. No businessperson would pro mote these kinds of financial statements in this way. [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] The second point I wish to make is with respect to the claims that the economy is strong and vibrant. Mr. Speaker, the Provincial Treasurer has been looking through rose-tinted glasses, and he hasn't seen the things that are happening around him. He hasn't heard that just a few days ago the Conference Board of Canada said that the projected growth rate for Alberta would be 2 to 2.5 percent. He says that it's going to be 3 to 3.5 percent.

When you're talking about 1 percent in the scheme of that kind of magnitude, that's enormous. He doesn't even at tempt to reconcile those figures. He doesn't even attempt to say, "Well, the figures of the Conference Board looked at this and this and this, and they should have looked at this and this and this." There is no attempt to do that reconciliation. The effect is that everybody that's looking in terms of money, capital moneys that might otherwise be invested in Alberta are saying: "Hey, what's going on in Alberta?

These guys are monkeying, fuzzifying their financial documents, and they're also trying to monkey and fuzzify and do a little jiggery-pokery on what the economic growth in the province is going to be." You can't fool people that way. That, then, is the second point. Mr. Speaker, I invite the members opposite to challenge us, every member on this side, on this issue. I was struck by the hon. Minister of Advanced Education's comments when he talked about honesty with respect to the deficit. It's honest to say that we weren't right when we talked about the deficit.

The deficit -- and now we're being honest -- is going to be a year longer in being wrestled down. Here's the challenge. Why does a Premier of this province go from point to point, from commu nity to community during a general election and then in other communities in a by-election and say that there will be no in crease in the deficit? Why does the Premier go from community to community during the course of a general election and say that we're on track with respect to bringing down the deficit, that we'll do away with that deficit by 1990 to 1991? Mr.

Speaker, it's just a few months ago that those statements were made, and I would like to suggest to members opposite that they knew and the Premier knew that those facts were in correct. Challenge us on this. I invite the Minister of Advanced Education to talk about honesty in that context or anyone of you to talk about honesty in that context. You haven't been honest. There is no honesty.

It isn't honest when a Premier, a leader of a party -- and I wrote down the expression that the hon. minister used just a few moments ago when he said, "Elections come and elections go"; you make offers during the course of an election. I've never heard that kind of admission before. I've never heard somebody saying, "Well, you know these elections are all puf fery, and the statements we make during the course of those elections don't mean anything." [interjection] That's the im plication, sir, of what he was attempting to do, and you know it, sir. You know it.

And the thing is that when you talk about honesty . . . MR. SPEAKER: Through the Chair, hon. members. MR. DECORE: Mr. Speaker, when you talk about honesty, when you talk about a deficit not increasing, don't come back and try to fool Albertans by saying, "Well, we'll handle it next year, later." That's not being honest.

And it's not being honest to say that there would be no increase in taxes and then to come back to this Assembly, to come back in front of all these people in an accountability session and say, "Well, I didn't really mean that; I meant income taxes." Why wasn't he explicit during the course of that election? The mandate that this party opposite got was to keep the deficit from going up. They didn't do it. Their mandate was to hold the line on taxes, that there would be no

June 9, 1989 ALBERTA HANSARD 175 taxes, and the Premier even said that taxes might go down. They didn't do it. They continue to fudge on those issues, and they're going to be held accountable for them. Mr. Speaker, it used to be that when a Premier of our prov ince said something, people listened. People accepted what the statement was. People believed that he knew what he was talk ing about. People accepted the fact that the statement had valid ity and strength and purpose, and that it wouldn't be dishonest or improper. Albertans expect that of their political leaders.

They saw that, I submit, in the kind of statements that former Premiers of this province made in the Social Credit regime and the previous regimes of this party that's now in power. Mr. Speaker, the effect of what has happened is that no Al bertan can now believe in the statements that our Premier makes. When he starts talking about taxes or deficit reduction or he starts talking about economic projections, nobody can be lieve him. To me that's a very sad situation for Alberta. It's sad because we're looked at by others across Canada in a very dif ferent way. They look sideways at us.

They look at us and say: "Well, the leadership in that province isn't very honest. We're not sure we want to deal with that kind of a province." Again, I say to every member opposite: all of you challenge us on this point of honesty with respect to taxes and deficit. And you can't come out with any other conclusion, ladies and gentlemen, members of this Assembly, than that it is dishonest in the way that the whole election process was handled with respect to taxes and deficit. Mr.

Speaker, the issue of revenues is an important one when as much revenue is relied upon from the nonrenewable resource sector as we in Alberta rely on. It's important to be comforted and feel strong about the reasons for the projections. It's impor tant to see some kind of evidence, some sort of corroboration that comes forward that says, "Here's why we think the price of oil will be $19 per barrel." There is no corroboration.

There is no attempt to show some strength to that statement, and I submit that there is a definite, an overpowering need to find that kind of strength, that kind of comfort, when the Provincial Treasurer was so desperately, so improperly wrong in his last projection, in his last Budget Address. He was almost $2 out on a barrel of oil, and for every dollar there's $100 million translated into revenue in Alberta. MR. ORMAN: Give us your projection. MR. DECORE: All I'm asking is that you be honest, Mr. Min ister.

All I'm asking is that you look at the Economist or the Globe and Mail or at any statements that say that it is not likely that barrels of oil will be $19. MR. ORMAN: What's your number? MR. DECORE: What's my number? It's a lot less than $19. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order in the House. The mem ber has the right to be directing his comments through the Chair, but I'd suggest that he does them through the Chair. I also call the Minister of Energy to order for interrupting the member. MR. DECORE: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I'm hitting a raw nerve, and I'm delighted that the Minister of Energy is worried and con cerned about this. I'm delighted that he's feeling the same kind of discomfort that I think all Albertans should feel on this issue of the value, the price, of a barrel of oil. Look at the statements that come out of the Economist.

Look at the statements that have been made recently in the press about how they say that this recent blip in the price of oil will not last, that that is de pendent upon the Valdez situation and the situation with OPEC, that OPEC is now falling apart again, and the price of oil is ex pected to go down considerably. Look at those statements, Mr. Minister; I invite you to do it.

Document details

Collection	Alberta — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	19890609
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	L22 S1 19890609 1000 01 han.pdf
Language	en
Format	json
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ea65cd35dd47c8918518dfa5290450bd66f071a9

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