VOL. l PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TAANSClUPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 3:00 P.M - 6:00 P.M. Monday, July 30, 1979 ~o. 12

July 30, 1979 The House met at 3:00 P.M. ~.r. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. SPEAKER: ~1R. .I • !I)RGAN: Tape No. 389 SD - l Order, please! STATEMEN'!'S BY :.IDIISTERS The han. Minister of Lands and !'crests. Mr. Speaker, I would like tc inform t!le i:louse of Assembly about some new initiatives that we are takinq in the i:lepartlDent of Forestry tc improve tbe sawmilling industry in the Province. we will be producing as a The situation new is that this year Province 46 million board feet of lumber 1 This is a record high. fer the Province. Last year it was 9 per cent lower; however, 1-lr.

Speaker, it is still 45 per cent below the needs of this Province. our aim, of course, is to be, one of t.'lese days 1 self-sufficient in production of lumber. My department has been wcrki.nq on a number of initiatives in this reqard. These initiatives have been ctirected" at imprcvinq log supply, increasing the access to the timber stands by new forest access reads and means and ways of achievinq better utili.zation of the sawmills in general, and tc prcvicie a better quality of 1\llllber. In 1975 the total production in the Province was 37 million beard feet. In 1976 it was increased to 42 mi.llion.

As I mentioned 1 this year it is 46 and we aim tc go on up from there. So I am pleased tc amlOunce, Mr. Speaker, that with the assistance from the l?ederal Department of Regional Economic ::.xpansion t.'lat we are arranqinq to sponsor a study tour by the local sawmiller,. themselves. the lllr:lre enterprising sawmi11ers in particular in this case tc take a lcok at the medium and small size sawmill operations, similar t.c those in their own operations in this Province, in the provinces of New Brunswick acd Nova. s=-t.ia. In fact, today we have five of these 990

.1uly 30, 1979 Tape No. 389 so - 2 MR. J. MO.RG;.N: sawmillers, owners a.nci operat:DrS, in Nova. Scotia, acc:cmpcieci by two senior officials of the oeparcaent of Forestry anci a.ccampaniad by an official f~ the ua~tment of tzxtuatria.l Devalopment ,azld. ~ tlley will be jo.ined 1;Jf an ofiieial from the Newfo•mdland and Labra4or Development Corporation. They will l.aok at the operations today Qf et.10 sawmills a.l!d l:ca~Qrraw tb:l:ee more in Nova Scotia, aDi Wednescia.y follow on ta loo.k. a.t tb:l:ee in New BrUnswick, a.l!d I thinlc it is five on 'rhursciay. These study tours are bei:l.q spoMO:red by the Maritime I.wabe:r Bureaa and we are cOJWinced will help 991.

July 3~~ •• 1979 Tape !fo. 390 ow - l MR. J. !o!ORGAN: the local opera~ors in our Province to improve t-..o things; Number one, .;,.::~ :;: ~~~enti.Jn,.d,tl:l .. <t-ua.lity of t:..'lai: produc:ti:m :.nd 1 ::!~er to-m,t • .'1eir ovftal.l production in general , to increase their production. We are convinced that this is going to · J:e of extreme benefit tc those operatQl:'s in laazning the expertise and the technolOCJY of others who are,by the way, Mr. Speaker, quite successful.

The operations of a sawmill operation in New Bn&nswick and in Nova Scotia in · ccmparison to tba same size sawmill in our Provinc:e are operating much 110re efficiently and a much greater production. We are convinced the study tours will benefit the : local sawmill operators. NOw this is, as I mentioned, a pilot project. if you wish ,spoiUiored by both governments and if it is succuaful, and we are coavillce<i it will be succes•ful and beneficial, we intend to carry out fur<"..her of the study tours over the next number of months to improve the overall saWIIIilling industry in our Province. MR.

SPEAKER: (SIMMS) SOME HON. MEMBFRS : MR.. 0. JAMIESON: The non. Leadar of '::he Opposition. Hear, hear! Mr.

Speaker ·, the. minister's state~t seeme '::0 be motherhood.I have absolutely no objections ,and I think it makes a good deal of sense and I am sure that everyone in Newfoundland will ·.relcome the idea of acquiring 1110re expertise .I am not as sanguine as he is about what has been happening over the last three or four years, or indeed what has been happening in the sawmilling industry over the past decade or so. we keep hearing ~ manner of forecasts about how we can be more self­ sufficient and yet the sorry story is, I th.ink it is fair to say, that for every l!lill that is opened up, every one that expands to some degree, we hear another sad story about one that hAs gone w:lliar because of high costs or for some other reason • I must say I doubt very 11111ch if the gentlemen concerned on this tour are going to learn very IIIUCh t.'l.ae they do not already know.

It is fine for them to go, nothing wronq wi~~ that all, but I have talked to lU!lY of them,I have talked to some of those •.o~ho have been helped by the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation, 992

July 30th., 1979 '!'ape No. 390 MR. C • :JliMIESON: by ORE!:, by a varieity of other orqanizations over the years,and I think it would be far better for the minister ::.... listen tO ;o~hat it is that they ':el.! h:i.:a ·is '.trenq in :;awfcund.land in terms of the sawmillinq' op.erat.ions.

Part of the problem, I qather, i .s the ability to dispose of the totality of the wood p~uction, but part of it . is also the ma%ltetinq • 'l'here a,re a variety of other thiru;s that ue involved in it, .azsd ~ntl.y I think what they will do at the end of this taur. will probably come bac::lt and say, 'Well, there is no doubt about it, these people have a better, in a sense technique than we have but they have not shown us anyt.'linq that we have not known before.' 993

July 30, 1979 Tape No. 39l NM- l MR. JAMIESON: My only other objection is that I have not started to keep score but I better do that fairly soon to see how many studies aiid analyses this government has got underway. When we started with the Throne Speech, then we went on to the Budget, and now we have this, nothing is happening.

All we are hearing about is the fact that the study is going to be done, that there is another group gone somewhere else to take a look at something else, or that, "We are not going to proceed with this, • says t.ba government, •because we have not got all the data that we want." So that I emphasize once again if it is beneficial, and ! suppose it is . for operators in Newfoundland to go elsewhere,that is f4le. But I would not hold my breath in expecting that as a result of this pilot project, or no pilot project,we are going to see a revolution in the sawmilling industry in Newfoundland. SOME liON.

MEMBERS: !iear, hear! ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker , I direct my question to the hon. the Minister of Finance. In view of the fact that he is the one who is quoted, he may wish to enlist the aid of some of his calleaques. I am back on the question on the future of Come ay Chance.

This morning it has been indicated that the env~onmental :!!port will be in the hands of the government this week. :-lay I, as my first question, ask, is this an environmental report that is concerned only •,o~ith the effects or likely effects of the type of crude oil which it is proposed that First Arahian use, or is it an environmental study that in addition includes and embraces possible impact on the fishing industry,for example, and other marine activities in that area? MR. SP~: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the hon.

Leader of the Opposition was quite correct that the environmental aspects are ~ot just a single facet, they are multi-faceted; there is the navigational problems in the bay itself, there is the water effluents fran the refinery, if it should be reactivated, which find their ·,;ay into the sea; there is the disposal of solid wastes, and then finally ehere is t.'1e air pollution aspect. 994

July 30, l979 Tape No. 391 NM - 2 OR. J. COLLINS: The particular reports :we are awaiting dea.l with the air pollution aspects. The navigational problems, we have bad. cl.iscussions over those but that question was by a.ncl. large settl.ecl.,I suppose, one migh.t look at it that way, settl.ecl. when the original refinery was opened.. The decision was made that there were navigational. hazards, certainly, there are Oiiviqationa.i hazards wheneve% there are ships involved., but tlat these navigational hazards !fer& looked upon as acceptable p't"OVicl.ecl. the good. navigational techniques Ul4 995

July 30, 1979 Tape 392 PK - 1 Dr. Collins : na.vigational equipment was in place. So it would seem that there is little argument we can raise in that regard now, although we mast make sure that these proper procedures are followed. The effluents, the fluid effluents going into the sea, that is a federal responsibility: that deals with the federal protection of the waters, the tide waters, and that is essentially within the federal field.

The waste product pollutants,that is a Provincial responsibility, and we have had discussions with the proposed reactivators of the refinery in that regard to make sure that proper waste, solid waste disposal is affected, and we feel that there is no real problem there although continued surveillance clearly '"ill be in order.

And we are therefore left then with the air pollutant ones, and this is the one where we felt that our own expertise,of which we have a considerable amount in Consumer Affairs and Environment, we felt that was not sufficient nevertheless to give us the guarantees we were looking for,so we went to two other sources, we went to Environment Canada and they ve~ kindly seconded an official of high expertise in this. particular area to our aid: and secondly, we went to recognized experts in the field,specifically on air pollution from refineries. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : Opposition. MR. ~SON: A supplementary, t.l1e hon.

Leader of the To be quite specific then, am I correct in assuming that the environmental standards that were in operation at the time of the close down of Came By Chance as they relate to the effluent and the various other JDatters that the minister has raised 1 that these are not in question at the. moment, that basically the study is concerned with the possibility that the type of crude oil, which First Arabian is bringing in or proposes to bring in, is of a high sulphur content and that these studies are only and exclusively aimed at seeing whether ~~is creates a more serious environmental problem then was t.l1e case in ~'l.e past?

Is that a correct deduction? 996

July 30. 1979 Tape 392 E'K - 2 ,MR. SPElllCER ( Sl:MMS) : The hen. Minister of Finance. DR. CClLLlllS: Yes, ~- Speaker, that is ess.entiall.y the ret;ined tl\rO~qhQUt the world bas c:hanged from the sweeter towards ~· · ~type. There is a ~ession that way. And when one says( •sweet and · sour one is not talkinq about Chinese foQd; one is tal.kinq about the amoant of sulphur in the particular crude that is avallable. And in this year, l979, there is on an average a higher sulphur content of the crude beinq made a'9'ailable to the ruineries thl:ouq,hc:JUt the world then there w.u, say, when the refinery opened, which was 99?

JW.y 30, 1979 Tape No. 393 AH - l DR. COLLINS : in 1973 or 1974, some data like that • .)U!.. JJUf!ESON : A s~pleme.ntary. :.m. SPEAKER: (Simms) ':he hen. t.eader of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker, that is llCt entirely a full answer but I will not press it furt.'ler.

I hope I will have an opportunity in estimates or somewhere to go into it in detail. aut may I ask this supplementary then: Since so much emphasis has been placed on this environmental study, does this mean that the govermaent is now satisfied that; First Arabian is adequate from the .financinq point of viaw, that it has an adequate supply of crude for the foreseeable and that is fer a reasonable period of t:ime, and that the marketing problema have been solved? Does this mean, in other words, that if the enviro:nmental finding is satisfactory that Ccme By Chance can go ahead? MR. SPEAI<ER: Hon.

Minister of Finance. OR. COLI..INS: Mr. Speaker, in our neqotiat;j.ons we have made it clear throughout that we were not going tc approve this packet in bits and pieces, that we would investig<~te the various aspects that were of a <::oncern t:.o us l:lut we wculd llCt say,, "Alright, that is approved," and then go on to the next one. We woW.d seek information and, once we had all the informat.i.on <~vailable to us, we would then sit down over the total packet and either say, "Aye" or "Nay". I might point out at this point in time, Mr. Speaker, we are IICt enqaqing these people to reactivate the refinery.

The first mortgage is the owner of the refinery. The first IIICrtqaqee has merely asked the Province, as the second IIICrtqaq_, if it aqrees with. t.'le proposal that t.'le first mortgagee has basic<~11y accepted. .'Uld this is what we are iiSked to de, to say either, (

a) we support or (

b) we de net support, and our basic pcsition is that ~ore will not support Wltil we have seen the whole package. Now the points th.a t the h.on. t.eader of t.'le Opposition has brought up, all t.'lese have been given 998

July 30 ,1979 DR. COLLINS: 'l'ape No. 393 AH-2 consideration and none of these are as illlnediate as the air pol,I.ution one. We feel that we have at this point in time essentially sufficient infocnation. I do not i<now if we will 'have al.l inftlz:mation rJ.qnt: up to the last minute on all of them 1 l:lut we are not hung up, shall we say ,if I might use that term, we are not hung up on any of the other aspects. We are now just awaiting t.'te air pollution resolution. MR. JAMIESON: MR. SPEAn:R: (Silams) The hen. Leader of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: A final supplementary. A final supplementary.

I apologize for taking so much time on this subject but it continues~ the hon. the Premier quite openly and frankly,and I think honestly,said the other day that we were lllaDY lllOllths down the road. Now here once aqain we have a situation in which we are saying that the enviromnental study will be in the government's hands within a short time and once again we have this generation of expectation. The hen. member says that there is nothinq as urqent as the environmental standards. There will not be an environ=ental problem unless the refinery is reactivated. So what I am sayinq is when are all of t:llese 999

Ju.l.y 30, 1979 Tape No. 394 SD - l MR. D. JAMIESON: b.its allli pieces going to start to c:cme together allli what is tlle timetable? ADd I cio not ask the hon. Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) to be specific, but are we talking here in ta:cas of weeks or months? You lalow, there is an lWqust 15th cieacUi.ne, I am info:z:meci, which has to be extended. Perhaps I can put my question best by saying to the hen. Minister of Fillance, does he now anticipate tllat they will have to extend beyoncl that August l5th deadline? MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) DR. J. COLLINS : The hen.

Minister of Finance To a.ns·.;.u: tllat point first, llC,we do llDt anticipate we will have to extend beyond that. If· the circumstances should. arise whereby they ask for an extension 1 we certainly will look at it and if it seems raasona.bla we will do so. The deadline is a deadli.ne we hope to meet whereby we will have all tlle information available to us and we will then give or not give our support. That does not mea.n.and I am nat raisinq expectations. I 'IIOnder if the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. D. Jamieson) is raising expectations?

I am merely sayinq tllat when the daadlina c:cmes ,if we hold to it, we will have said we will support or we wtil llDt support. There are many th.ings that have to take place a.ftar tllat for which the Province is not responsible. The SQPreme Court of New£oundla.nd has to give its judqement in this. There has to be certain ~attars of litigation gone ~~ough; ~~y may coma to somethinq and they may ccme to ngthiJlq. Thera has to be a. revi- by the Federal Review .Board,.FIRA,on this.

Sc, there are a lot of things to go through for which the province is llCt responsible; all we are responsible for is to meet whatever deadli.nes are set to give our agreement or non-agreement to !:he proposal as it is put fo:rward to us. MR. SPEAKER: The non. member for I.aPoile. MR. S. !IE~: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the llon. the Premier if he met with the President of t.'le Iron Ore 1000

Ju.ly 30·, 1979 Tapa No. 394 so - 2 MR. 5. NEARY: or on !'ritiay,am if so wcul4 the han • .,entl.ema.n i.Micata ta the ~use w~t topics were d.i.s~eci at that piirticul.ar l!le8t.inq? MR. g.!!AICER: (Simms) T.ba bgn. the Premier. PREMIER. PEC1CFORD: ~ I wxierstalld the bon. mUII:Mu:'s questio~ de ia illquir~ as to a _tin., that lfiiS held by IOCC officials? I was list~ ta someb?dy e.l.se at the time. MR. S. NEARY: I was t:yinq to find out wbat you did with Brian Mulroney when bL was hera to qat him all upset? ?REMIER l'Ec::!'ORD~ lie~~. you wil~ have to uk Mr. Mull:oney.

There was a C;i.binet Collllllittee tbat met with ~1r. Mulzoney conc:ernin9 the operations of the Iron ore company of ca.aada in I.a.ilrador City allli a :review of the ccmpany' s positions OA matters of major C:OACez:D to them aAd ta the Prcwin.ca as :reJ.ataci to the va:icus :reports tbat have b-n done on the operation am as it :relates to onqoinq studies on dust that are ccw in pace, ~1001

July 30, 1979 Tape No. 395 NM- 1 PREMIER PECKFORO: and just a total review of the operations from IOC' s point of view so that government would have the benefit of theU information and their data and their v.i.ews. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAXER (Simms): La.Poile. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hen. member for Mr. Speaker, that would seem to be a very harmless meeting and hardly worthwhile for Mr. Mulroney to travel all the ~ray to St. John's to meet with the non. gentleman and his Cabinet Committee unless they discussed something specific.

Let me ask the hon. gentleman if they discussed the Easton Report, and if so did t.'le government lay down any guidelines or any directions in which they would expect the Iron ore Company of canada to take in connection with this report:? MR. SPEAI<:ER: The non. the Premier. PREMIER ?ECKFORO: The company at the meeting, M:r. Speaker, did express its opinion on various recommendations contained in the Easton Report. As for the Easton Report itself,of course government is examining that report now and will in due course take a position on the various recommendations contained in it. MR. NEARY: MR.

SPEAKER: La.Poile. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member for Did IOC, or M:r. Mulroney or any of his spokesmen indicate to the government, or to the hon. gentleman, what Iron Ore Company of Canada was going to do · about the dust pollution in Labrador City! I mean,ther~ must be some sort of specific information given to the government or the government must have given some directions to roc. It was not just to sit around and have a little picnic. ~id they say what they were going to do about the dust problerr-?

Did the government tell them what they should do about it:? Was there anything specific that came out of t.'le meetings or was it just a little social get together:? 1002

July 30, 1979 MR. SPEAKER ( Simns) : :>REMIER PECXFORD: Tape No. 395 11M - 2 The hon. the Premier. Mr. Speaker, I have indicated to the hen. lll8lllber for IaPoile (Mr . Neary) that the purpose of the meeting was for ICC management to indicate to government the present status of various things ongoing in Labrador and their position on various matters concerned with their operation. They did express their views on various aspects of the Easton Report. I do not know i£ the hon. member is fully aware or not 1 but I am sure the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) can bring the me!!Uler for IaPoile (Mr.

Neary) 11p to date as it relates to dust studies ongoing. There is a tri­ level process in being. Mr. Len Leyte, the President of the Steelworkers Onion, Mr. Brian Mulroney, President oi IOC, the hon. Jerry Dinn, Minister of Labour and Manpower, are a three-man committee which is charged with the responsibility of getting a number of studies going on the dust problem, both in the buildings which process the ore at Labrador City, ilamediately outside the buildings on the IOC property in Labrador City, and also in the community of Labrador City, which is outside the IOC property per se.

These studies will be going ahead. So that part of the operation at Labrador City I think there is agreement between the three parties involved on a course of 1003

July 30, 1979 '!.'ape MO. 396 OW ..: l PREMIER PECKFORD: action, and that course of action will n01o1 be pursued and on w!U.ch the Minister of Labour and :-!anpower (l".r. Oinn) can specifically answer your qlli!!Stians !"ar better than I. On the other matters daal.i.nq with the IOC, '1r. Mlllroney and his people wanted to express their opinions, as I said,on various aspects of the Easton Report and give their view, which was publicly put in the paper,but they wanted to get into it in more detail with us as goverrunent,beinq involved.

They al.so wanted to indicate their view as it related to municipal government at Labrador and how they thouqht that that should :,e handle<!. So the whole business of Labrador City and the iron ore ope.u.tions were revi~ in the light of the co~any's opinioll!l on them and they were given full opportunity so to present their views and we are thankful and grateful to them for givinq us the benefit of their views on these important matters which affect ~~em and affect us.And they will be meeting, various members'. of IOC, with the hen. Minister of Mines and Energy (l".r.

Barry), with the han. t.~e M.inister of Labour and Manpower and with other people in government periodically over the next number of months to ensure that we have the" latest information from the COJII!?allY. Meanwhile, we will al.so get all the information we can from the anion and I am sure the whole thinq is on the right tracJc and movinq ahead the way it should . So this was the purpose gf the meeting. !IIR. S. !lEARY: MR. SPEAJCER: M:R. S. NEARY: A supplementar-, Mr. Speaker. Final supplementary, the hen. member for LaPoile. Mr.

Speaker, the hen. gentleman indicated that ICC gave their views on the Easton Report and on municipal government in Labrador City. The hen. gentleman did not tell us what views they expressed or what views the government expressed to them. So let me ask the !:on. gentleman, what is it they are talking about in Labrador City . Do they want a municipal elected government put in there, a town council put in there- is that what they are asking the government to do? And what about the Easton Repon, how do they feel about it? How do they feel about !tell! II 1 for instance 1 that the Government of the 1C04

July 30, 1979 Tape No. 396 ow - 2 MR. S • NEARY: Province of Newfoundland and Labrador should enact regulations for preference for local labour? How do they feel about the Easton Report? ;.re they <?Oinq to i~lement the ~dations? Are they stall.inq? An they pro=aatina.tinq? Are they objectinq to any parts of the Easton Report? The han. qentleman should qive the people of this Province and the people of Labrador West a little 1110= information. It is not secret! The han. gentleman should tl!lll us, give US' some more specific information, elaborate a little more on the meeting. MR.

SPEAXER (SIMMS): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, there is a representative of the ICC COmpany here in St. J'ohn' s all the time. I am sure he would be only too pleased to meet with the han. IDI!IIIber for LaPoile (Mr. Neaay) and express the c:ompany 's views because if I start qiv-inq the company's views I might, throuqb some nuance or some particular phrase, not properly ref~ect the view of the C0111P&ftY. And so that, there fore , the han. member I think should do sane homework and listen to the news and read the various press releases that were put out by the company MR. NEARY: MR.

SPEAXER: PRI!!MIER P'!cn"'RD: (Inaudible) . Order , please! - and in this way become more knowledqeable as to the COIIIPanY ' s position • On aunic ipal qavemment 1 I think the Iron Ore Company of Canada from way ll&clc several years a.qa did publicly 1005

July 30, 1979 Tape 397 PI< - l Premier Peckford: indicate to the people of La.brador West and to the people of Newfoundland that t:hey favoured t:he report that was done at that time on municipal government,w!ti.ch was to transfer the loca.l improvement district now so-called- t:he memeers of which are appointed-to a town council, to an elected group.

The issue at stake as it relates to Municipal Goveznment in Labrador Cj,ty is at what level of guarantee will the company provide for the infrastructure for the town of Labrador City and what will be the level of funding on into the future J what formula can be used? The question is not really one of appointed versus elected. I think most people have agreed that t:hey need an elected form of government.

What the people of Labrador City are concerned about is will they suddenly see a large rise in their municipal taxation because IOC wants to get out of the field of financing all of the infrastructure in Labrador City. aut they are, in principle, in favour of an elected town council and I think are talking to Municipal Affairs in the last number of weeks about such ~ transfer from a local improvement district to a town council.

Now they have to negotiate with the town officials t:he level of permanent funding that will be ~ut in place: There are Sl7 million or $18 million 1 as I understand it, in t:he ground in Labrador City which is guaranteed by IOC. I think it is fair to say that IOC will see that that is paid off; then that is the capital side of it. Are they willing to finance a certain level of operating over a ten or fifteen year period or are they not?

And that is where the negotiations are right now. so I think you will see 1 trY view is that within the next year or so 1some change of municipal status for Labrador Cj, ty. on t:he question of l:liring, and one part of the Easton report as it relates to local preference,the company did indicate to us - and it is difficult to get into specifics here because there is a lot to the Easton report, but in the general way I can respond to the hon. gentleman right now - as it relates to local 1006

JUly 30, 1979 Tape 397 ~K - 2 PRE..'fiER ?!:Cl'JORD: preference, of course, the company has pointed out to government and to the people of Labrador City on many or.r:asions i:hat the levP.J -:~f ).oc~al j,.,bs 'It Labrador Cit? is well over 90 per cent right now, and they think they are doing a fairly adequate job insuring local preference. aowever, they do admit that in certain areas they could have been doing better and they have indicated that they are going to ini.tiate a new system of hiring down there to ensure that even more Newfoundlanders get hired.

And they are initiating through ads in the papers, shortly 1 I think 1 a new effort to try to purc.base more local goods within•, the Province. There are other specifics in the report that I could not reply to in detail because it 'WOuld take up too much time, and I am not totally conversant in them today as I should be in order to answer fully the hon. member's question. But I hope I have given him some idea of the kind of issues that were discussed at the ~eeting. MR. NEARY: Very vague. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): The Iron. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBER!I.'S: Mr.

Speaker, the Premier may have been vague, but he was not short. A question for the Minister of Transportation and Coliiiii:Wlications (Mr. Brett) ,which ! am sure he has anticipated. He has heard of the expressions 1007

July 30,1979 Tape N'o. 398 AH-l ~!L ROBERTS: of f~elinq which came, I believe, oriqinally fr~ people who live in the New Ferolle - Reefs Harbour area, representative of my friend fr0111 St. Barbe (Mr.Bennett), who M~Y well ~ave a suoolementarv, Mr. Speaker. My question relates to an area a little furt.'ler North whie.'t is in my ovn constituency, of which I know the lllinister is familiar becau:~a he and I have disCilssed it on occasion, Forrester's Point, Black Duck Cove, Pigeon Cove, St. Barbe itself , the CCIIIIIIUnity of St. Barbe and then the COiftlllunity of Anchor Point.

Can the minister tell us whether arrangements have been made by him or by his officials to have pavement laid this year through those conmmities while the worlt is being done under the DREE aqreements on the main highway , the Northern E'eninsula highway? MR. SPEJUCER: (Simms) Transportation and CCIIII!IIlnications. MR. BRE'M.': Ron. Minister of Mr. Speaker, I cannot be specific. I know that there are one or blo cCIIIIIlunities that are being paved in the area but I de not know the whole list.It seems to me that there is not quite that many. I think it is only two. MR. :ROBERTS: A supplementary. MR.

SPEAICER. (Simms) A supplementary. The hen. · member. MR. ROBERTS: Blue cove and Pond co- an being paved this year, which is a COII!IIIi tment made ! believe three years aqo when the hon. gentleman f~ Bonavista South (Mr. Morqanl was passing through '!'ransport3.tion and Comanmieations on one of his tours. Will the minister then undertake to look into and see whether the pavement can be laid in these COI!IIIftlnities? I know he is fa111iliar with the feeling of the people there. I Ul not condoning picketing; if they threaten to picket,well,we will see what COllies.

But I am sure he is familiar and understands the feeling of the people in these co111111unities, that since the main road is being paved there is a certain s.ltepticiSl!l, a certain fear which is expressed by - 1008

July 30,1979. Tape No. 398 · AH-2 MR. ROBERTS: saying that once the paving machines leave we will never see th- again, a fear which may be heightened by the fact that there is going to be no election for three or four year.~. So eoul!d the minister undertake to look into this , review to see whether this work can be done this year and qive his assurance to the people in t.'tese COIIIIIUilities4' !4R. SPEJUCER: (Simms) The hon. minister. MR, BRE'l"l' : Mr. Speaker, to an~r the hon. gentleman's question, it is most unlikely that that would be included in a programme for this year.

OUr proqramme has been finalized, tenders have been called on i.f not all o.f the work then most of the worlt that is to be completed this SUIIIIIer. It is not necessarily true that once the paving machines 1110ve out that paving will not COI!IIlence again for another four years. I appreciate the concerns of the hen. member and I can only tell him, as I have told other members 1 not only on that side of the !louse but on this side as well, that we are looking at all the gravel roads in the Province o.f course and hope to get th- all done when funds will pe%11lit. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary. MR.

SPEAKER: A further supplementary. The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you. I -!come the minister's expression. I have said to ~eople 1 as he has, that just because the machines leave it does not mean they will never ccme back; there ~till be another election and they ~till be back in good t:lllle no doubt. Mr. Speaker, the .minister says that his officials have already cal. lAd allnost all or the tenders for work 1 and that is understandable, this is the end o:f July.

Would the minister make public­ or lay upon the table o:f the House and thus make ~ublic-a list of the worlt to be done by his dep&ZU~ent this year, separated perhaps into the Clio categories of work done through the DREE funding and work being done through the no%11la1 governmental funding? 1009

July lO,l-979 !!R. SPEJIJI:ER: (Si:runsl MR. BIIE'rl': Tape No. 398 AH-3 The hon. mini.s'ter. I will take that under advis88Dt, Mr. Speak:er, but I had auticipated that that q,Jestion llliqht =- liP whell '111'.1 -t:illlates are bei.nq dcme. As l indicated, I will take it under aclVise~eDt. MR. SPEU!:R: st. same. The hon. Hlllber for Mlt.BENN!Tr: Mr. Speaker, a supplementazy to t!le hoQ. lllelllber for the Strait (Mr.l!oberts) as directed to the ,Minister of Trans'portation aDd Coai!IUidcations (Mr.arettl.

Yesterday I was into a llllle'tiJ1q - I llliqht add quite a massive ~moue--of people"'" and they an ft%Y aaac:ernad. EftZY'tbinc; that the hem. 1lll!lllber for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.Roherts) hQ said I 111USt reinforce. 1010

July 30, 1979 Tape No. 399 NM -·1 MR. BENNETT: It seems to me that everything has got to have priority. I would like to ask the hon. minister how we establish priorities, and to what degree does potant~l resource influence the lllinister' s decisions, especially in that area of paving? MR. Sl'EAKER (Simms): and Communications. MR. BRETT: The hon. Minister of Transportation Mr. Speaker, I can tell the hon. gentleman that establishing priorities is something that is done with great diffic:ulty. Just before I came to the E!ouse1 I met with a group of people from Brookside. I spent a half an hour '"ith them.

Their road was only one and one-tenth miles long and to them that was just as important as route 340,which the hen. member is concerned about. Everybody, Mr. Speaker, is concerned about gravel roads in the Province this time of the year. It is dusty, it is hard on cars. we were able at least to provide calcium in the built up areas of the Province. We did c.ot put it between settlements. We felt it was better to put it in the settlements.

So as I said it is only with great difficulty and taking into consideration fish plants and ~~t sort of things • You. know 1 for a number of years we have tried to get roads included in our DREE programme and we have not always been successful. I just tell the hen. member again that next year we will be looking at the roads programme. We are certainly not going to finish all of them. We ·.dll do as many as '"'e can, as many as time and finances will permit. MR.. SPEAKER: Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: The hon. member for the Strait of Mr.

Speaker, if my friend has a supplemen~I I will yield to him, if not I have a question for the Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker.. the strike of the employees, or some 101:1.

July 30, 1979 Tape No. 399 MR. ROBERTS: of the employees at the Red Cross 1 whatever they call it, the 'blood unit down here on Duckworth Street in the city - •Y friend fr0111 Bonavista North (Mr.

Stirling) I 'believe asked some questions on Friday and I am not sure whether the Premier or the minister answered for the government - I would like to know of the minister,please,whether any difficulties have arisen, particularly with respect to the out-of-townno•pitals vbic:D, I ~n"QD.d, ua raportinq - sbarta.qea of whale 'blood or of the plaSllla and if difficulties have arisen- :lr whet.'ler they have arise or not-in fact what arrangements has the minister Dlade to ensure that adequate supplies of blood are distributed?

And I gather if there is a problem it is in the distribution, not,at this stage at least in the - does one acquire blood, or collect it, or syphon it 1 Row.-r one gets it ayway!- not in the getting of the blood but in the getting of it to the hospitals around the P:ovince. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of aealth. MR. HOUSE: Mlr. Speaker, there has been no indication from any of the hospitals that there is a serious shortage as it pertains to emergency operations. The fact is that they are desisting from having any elective surgery done at this time. I was reading an article, of course,the

article today was written in The Daily News, and some of the answers to questions given yesterday MR. ROBERTS: information? MR. HOUSE: Is this where the minister gets his Well'· that particular one because I have been in contact also with the health clinic here MR. ROBERTS: Who? MR. HOUSE: The Red Cross Clinic. And the fact was that there ~ust be some kind of representation because ordinarily all ~~e hospitals have been contacted by the Red Cross Centre here and advised of the donors in the area and this is what they would be using in case of emergency. So there is no likelihood that hospitals will not be able to take care of emergencies. 1C12

July JO, 1979 Tape No. 399 ml - 3 ~. BOUSE: The other thinq 1 of course 1 is ~e fact that both groups are in ~eti.nqs today and hopefully somethinq ean be resolved.. ~. ROBERTS• MR.. SPEAlCER (Simms): the Straits of ·SeJ.le Isle. MR. ROBE:R'l'S: A supplementary, Sir. A su.pplt!llleiltary, the hon. IIIUiber for Mr. Spea.lcer, fi.rst of all we umi'lrstami that no ~&lective sur-;ery is to be carried out in the Province dur.inq the duration of this strike and 1of course, lfe hope the strike Ifill be settled. but that is not i.a the minister·• s hands nor ia it in ours; it is a lawful !Strike.

So I wnt to know whether the mi;lister, and I aa not elea.r from What he sa.i.d lfhether he has di.rected his officials 1 who have 1G13

July 30, 1979 Tape 400 EC·- l the ul.t.im&te ruponsibility for the pmvi.sion of health servic:ea, I would. submit., in this Pmvince, to qet in -=11Ci1. with me baapi~ to· •-· or wilatb.er ha ia j~Wt.· goiDq to w~t and l:lape DOI:lody says -thine; to hila or to 'l:!l.e Daily Mews or to The Ev.Dinq Telaqra111 OJ:' anybody elsa for that ~~~attar, and U9a if scm. c:l.i!fj,cul.ty dGes arise - because e~cies, u the llliDist.eJ:' would aq%88, ua aot predi.cbbla - wh.at. UJ:~t.s b.u he JUde to iDa-are tllat. blood does qat to the. hospitals?

All hoapit.als, u the minister kno-, ila.ve stocks of blood on hand at all ~s. a- he lll&cle UJ:anqe..nta to insure that the stoc:ks of bloocl on hand u-e adaq'Wlta? If not, why nat, .md what is he qoiDq to da ~ut it? !Ut. SPUDR: (S~) '1'ha bon. the Miniatu of lla&l.th. MR. BOtJSE: Mr. SpeMar, u far u W!f officia.ls ara conceoecl, the.re is an adaq'Wlte suppl.y.

And the other uran~t that b.a. ~ made, al.l. the baspit&l.s have l::leau. contacted with the list of dono:rs iD the ~ so th.at you qat it f1'011L that soUJ:c:e if this other soUJ:Ca th.l.t they uve. at the p:resent time •- to run short. aut there ia no iDdicaUon that it is ruzminq short u yet. MR. :aDBERl'S: ude, a list of ckmor.s. MR. HO'IJD.: So that is the only arran~t that is No, it is not. the only one bec:a- they do have a fairly ampl.a supply on hand. MR. SPEAICER: OJ:'der, pleua! 'lhe ~ for OJ:&l. Questions U5 expired.

AHSWEBS 'l'O QtlESTI.ONS !'OR WHICS: NO'riCZ BAS SEEN GIVE;! '1'ha hon. the Minis tar of Justice. MR. Of WIMER: Mr. Speaker, I wish to reply to a question on the Order Paper of July 25th, u.ked by the hon. the ~er foJ: I.al'oile (Mr. Neary), a blo-part question. First part, total cost to the Pmvinca of RCMP inveatiqation iDtc SOciete TransshippiDq. Then wu a coat - and I will be tabliD.q this - of $4,860.77, paid to a fizm of charte:red accountants for the eumin&tion of accounts and records and the report thereof. It is a. di--ect identifiable cost. To the best of W!f knawledqe - 1C1.4

July 30, 1979 't'~ 400 :e:c - 2 MR. O'nZNIIEDmR: there wu no additional or new or suppl.-ntary personnel llired. by the RCa' for thAt illwstiqation, nor indeed, !xoa the · poi.At- of .via¥ of the DllpU"CCIIIIDt cf .:u.tic:s, t:en -.,-, no ad.ditional. peno&mel. hired for that. So it woul.c:l 0. impoasiDl-. in at opiDion, to qiw my fi.qure aput fro• that for vhidl. a Dill v&a s~ttad md. the asm~mt paid. llecorc!s are not kept, let us say, in tarma of RCa' or iA ta.cu of a. solicitor, you lcDcw, in an aiqht :nour aay, how IIIIIDY :nours l:la spent on this or on thAt or on the other lll&ttar.

Also froa the Rea''s point of view the work would a, of coarse, co-rci&l f:raud, and thAt is al.most mtirely federally funded., s~ of it, a. aaal.l portion of it, paid froa the contrac:t Detw-n the Pxovinca a.nd the RCG'. But than is na way that I can give a. fi~, there is aa way I can qi.w an estimate a.nd there is no lllald.nq up one. There is no V.:'f thAt I c:an find out of qettinq any ac:c:uata figure on that. lGl. NEARY: lllllll-baurs illvolveci? lGl. O'l"rEHl::EIMER: Can the RCa' qive you the number of No.

The second put of the question, Did the liQIP i..Di.tiata this iA'V88tiq&tion on their own or wu it c:arried out ~mcmr illstruc:tiona f:raaa the Minister of Juatice2 The RCMP earri.ed. out their ill-atiqaticn ~mcmr i.rultruc:tions froa the Miniatar of Justic:a ~•ultinq fxoa complaints received by him. MR. NEAla': From wham<' MR.

O'l'TENHEIMER: I will caal with it, I suppose strictly speakinq it ~u.l.d co- in Oral Quastion period., but I think ban. members are -ue that it vould ba 1110st illappropriata for - to id.antify a source of ca.pl&ints ~ I •-, my lllllllber of the !lOuse or my <:itizen of the Pro'lrinca would have tha ri9ht to qiw illfo=ation, present a complaint, md if there were SOli! substantiaticn or sufficient substantiation then it would be followed. up. But to idend.fy c:ampl&inants would be quite improper. A citizen or a lilulber or mybody should, doeS 1015

J'uly 30, 1979 Tape No. 401 SD l MR. G. O'l'TENHEIMER: in fact,have tae right tc ~ such a camplaint,to qive what s~U)stantiation be O.:t' she has and to feel confident that this will remain coafid.antial.so I can nat ilnliWU• it 'oiOulci be imprope.:t" for me tc answer that. Somebody want tc - MR. S. NEAR:!: DOW, I Ge:rry' • MR. SPEAI<ER: (Silmns) Services. MR. !:1. '!OUNG: I got a few 111.0re questions for you The hon. M.inistu of Public Works and. lir. Speaker; I would. li.lte ta answer question No. l7 on the Order Paper uked. by the_ hen. membu- for Lal'oila (Mr. s. Nea.:t"

Y) on July 26th putaining to Mount Scio House. I have a list fo.r the press and also fo.:t' the hen. mallber. PRESENTrNG PETITIONS MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Spealcar. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. m.al:ler for I.i.Poile. MR. S. NEARY : I beg leave, Sir, to present a petitiQ.Il on ~lf of six residents of Day's Lane in Portugal Cove. I believe it is a lane that qoes by the United. Church graveyard. It is a rather unique .,etition, Mr. Speaker, in as much as the six signatures to tiU.s petition are CCIIIPlaining about a previous petition that was presented. to the Minister of Municipill Affairs and Housing (Mr. N.

Windsor) for an artesian well tc be d.rilllld. in Cay's Lana. On the original petition that was presented. to tbe Minister of Municip.U Affairs anci S:ousinq, which is a stuldard fcma. sent out by the Department of Municipal Affairs anci Housinq,Water Services Oivision, Wa.ter Supply Coumittee of .!:lay's Lane, chail:man, secretary, treasurer and. so forth. On this petition there are seven signatures, names of householders represented by tha ccmmi ttee a¢ there are seven signatures and. they are all in t:he same handwriting, Mr. Speaker, obviously, all signed. by the secretary. The secretary • s . 1016

July JO, 1979 Tape No. 401 SD - · 2 MR. S. NEARY: siqn&t:ure is similar to the other sevan signat:ures,So obviously the sac::eta%y wrote in seven names on this petition prior to the election to have an ~sian vall drilled. dOWil in Portllqal. ccrva. Now, six out of the seven people whose lWII4IS appear on tlat petition tc have tile artuia.D well drilled, six out of the seven are petitioning the ggvernmant to have an investigation made into tbeir siquat:uru appearing on that foua because they claim - Mil. E. li)BERTS: MR. S. NEARY: that under no c:ircumstanc:as - Mil. J. ~~~ MR. S • NEARY : MR.

SPEJUa:Rz (Si.lss) MR. S. NEAR!': -that · is forgery and they claim Do they vant a wall? - Mr. SpeU8r, order, please~ -they van tad the well but they did liCit want it in a certain r;entlau.n' s b&c:kyam wha was SJXPportinq the member am the 'l'ory Party I they did not want it in his backyard aDi this is the big question D~&Xk, Sir. MR. E. RCSERrS 1 MR. S. NEARY: Have the well taken QP OUl4 mgve. No, they <io not want it lllOVed, they want to lcncw why their names were put on the petition in the first place witbout their kncwledr;e? AN liON. MEMBER: Hear, h.ear. MR.

S • NEARY: And hare i.s the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, "'l'his is a complaint concerning an artesian well which was installed at gover:cment expanse. It is located at the United Church ea-tery Read." I believe that is Cay's Lane, Sir, as I identified it. "The reason for this coazp.laint is that s.iqnaturas which ware used on the application were never siqned by these i'eople. F\lrthe:z:more, we were never approached to attend any sort of a meeting to <iiscuss the ;;.cc;ation or any other aspect oi getting a gover11111ent funded vall.

So wa, the people who :oiqned t!lis petition as taxpayers and whcse names which wre used unknovinr;ly to us, ~«:~uld like to h.ave this matter leaked 1C1.7

Ju~y 30, l979 Tape No. 40~ SD - 3 MR. S. NEARY: into thoroughly by the gover:nment. • Now, Mr. Speaker, I ~ that is a fair request. If tllera was ever a. case of fa.l.se p:r.eten.sas and. forgery, sir, tllis is it.AI:ld. I am not sura, Mr. Speaker, if I shoul.d lay this pe:ition on tile Table of the House a.llli rafer it to the Department of Municipa~ Affairs or to the Oe~nt of Justice. I b~eve if I put it on tile Tab~e of the House and. refer it to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. N. Windsor) that the minister should have !:Lis colleague, the Minister of Justice (Mr. G.

Ottenheimer) , invastiqate this matter. It is a very serious matter, Mr. Speaker, and brings into focus, Sir, the use of ot.b.er people's names. The qenUema~~. who brought me this petition this mor:ainq was very concerned about tba fact - he had Ure&dy brought it to the attention of the Minister of Municipal Affairs - very concerned about the fact that nothing may be dane about it. The wel~, incidently, was put there, it was put in the backyard of the one gentleman, the one signature on it, one out of the seven, who is legitimate, the other six are not laqitimata signatures, they were a.ll forged.

Alll:i perhaps the hen. 1118111ber for St. John's East Extern (Mr. T. llickey) might be able to shed some light on this particular matter. sut anyway, Sir, it is a very serious matter and these people are very concerned about it, the fact t.l:lat anybody could go around .uxl. use their names 1C1S

July 30, 1979 Tape 402 PK - l Mr. Neary: names unknowingly to them. And I hope that the government will not treat this matter lightly. I hope the minister - MR. NEABY: - will ask his colleague, the Minister of Justice (Mr. ottenheimer) to have it investigated, and that these people will be given a satisfactory explanation of why their names, and why their signatures were used without their authority. It is a very serious matter, Sir. I do not know what the legal implications are, Mr.

Speaker, or the legal consequences, but I would submit, Sir, that they would be very great indeed, and whoever the culprit is who engineered this, who manipulated this, if he is a minister in the government or if he is a member of this ~ouse or somebody outside of this House then he should be severely reprimanded. MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: MR. MC:RGAN: MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: Support the petition. Pardon? Support the petition. I am supporting the petj,tion, of course, I am. (Inaudible) • I beg your pardon? It is a very serious matter. It is a very serious matter, Sir.

In concluding, Sir, I would like to say to Your ~onour and to the officials of the House that the qentleman who circulated the petition, ~t che six signatures on it, brought the original by mistake to the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Windsor) and was merely able to give me a copy of it. So I am t:ablillq a copy of the p~tition, Sir, and my name appears on it, and the date that I am presenting it and so forth, and also a copy at~ched of the original form that was filled out with seven signatures on it that were forged. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

NEARY: So, sir, I would like to lay this on the Table of the e:ouse - 1C19

JUly 30, 1979 Tape 402 PK·- 2 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : A point of order. MR. NEARY: - and refer it to the depzrtment to which it relates. MR. SPE:Ma:R: the Council. MR. .!omRSHALL: A point of order .. 'l'be hen. the President of Mr. Speaker, it is completely irregular to table a copy of a petition. The Standing Orders of the House are explicit on the matter.

It says "That a petition shall be signed by the persons pr~enting it." Standing Order 91 (a) , "A petition may be either printed or written and if more than three petitioners sign it, at least three signatures must appear on the page containing the prayer of the petition." So any petition that is just a copy, Mr. Speaker, is not a petition per se, and it can only be if it has three signatures on ~e petition itself. And it is highly irregular.

I could see where a new member of the House might bring in a petiton of this nature, but I suggest to.Your Honour it is highly irregular for anyone who has any knowledge at all with Standing Orders. MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. RCBE:R!l'S: on the point of order? Yes. The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman, the learned House Leader may have a technically correct point I will grant. But surely the purpose of petitions in this House is to serve the greater just.ice,the ends of justice. And if the Minister of Municipal A£fairs (Mr.

Windsor) w- =-ring \1P tbi.a seaay little affair, as apparently he was, then I think my learned friend, if not in the law7 learned~ in many other things friend for La.Poile (Mr. Neary) has done the House and the people of t.ll.is Province a service to expose this seamy little incident. Now I hava na doubt the 1u2o

July 30, 1979 Tape 402 Mr. Roberts: Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Windsor) will do what he ought to do which is authorize the investigation and let us find out who forged these signatures and whether puc~~c maney was spent as a result of forgery, because that, Sir, is the gist of this petition, and that is why I say it is in order to bring it in even if some technical - SOME RON. MEMBERS: S:ear, hear! PK - 3 MR. ROBERl'S : - little pettitOCJ~J:Y rule which ia being misinterpreted by my learned friend opposite appears to be to the contrary. MR. SPEAKER (Sl:MMS): on the point of order.

I believe I have heard enough argument. And I thank hon. members for their argument. The Standing Order is perhaps a little unclear and I would take the matter under advisement at thia particular time. The hon. Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure , am I permitted now to speak to this petition? MR. SPEAKER: MR. s:ICKEY: MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: Yes. Thank you very much, Your Honour. I simply rise, Mr. Speaker - On a point of order, Your Honour. On a point of order.

I have no objection at all to the hon. gentleman speaking, indeed I would welcome his speaking, but ! would assume if he speaks to it, this means that the petition is being admitted. If not, surely his speech will have to await a decision of the Speaker as to whether the · petition is in order or not. SOME !IDN. MEMBERS : Rear, hear! PREMIER PECI<FORD: - on that tadmical point. MR. SPEA!(ER: On the point of order, I am advised as well that the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) has made a legitimate point of order.

I have not accepted the petition so, therefore, :it. • .,ill have to wait and see as to whether or not I accept the . 1021.

.July 30 , l9.79 Tape 402 Mr. Speaker ( !.imms) : petition be£o:re any other bon. members can speak. ORDERS OF THE ~AY The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I have received a Q211SS&qe frQJII . !U.s lioucur The Lieutenant Gove~or. MR. SPElUCER: Addressed. to the Ron. M:i,nister of Finance, "I, The Lieutenant Governor of The Province of N.ewfou.ndland, transmit estimates of *'- required for the !'uhlic Service of the ~rov.iru:e for the year ending 31st.

March, 1960 hy way of additional interim suppl)' uacl in accordance with the Provisions of The aritish North America Aet of 18671 as amended, I rec:OIIIIIIelld these .estimates to the I'I:OilSe of Assembly. Si,qned Gordon A. W'il!.te:J;", Lieutenant GoVeruci:'. n 1022

July 30, 1979 MR. S?EAKER (Simms): OR. J. COLLINS: Tape No. 403 The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, I move tbat the NM - l Lieutenant-Governor's message be referred to a Committe of Supply. On motion,that the aouse resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. ~.fit. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : Order, please!

RESOLO'l'ION: That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for ~~e granting to aer Majesty for defraying certain expenses of the Public Service for the financial year endig the 31st. day of ~ch, 1980, the ~ of two hundred and twenty-five million sixty thousand dollars ($225,060,000}. MR. CEAIRMAN: MR. SIMMONS: Shall the resolution carry? The hon. member for'Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. That is me. Mr. Chairntan, I was hoping that the ~Unister of Finance (Dr. J.

Collins) might by way of introduction,however brief 1 just bring the Committee up to date as to what has been requested earlier and approved earlier by the House insofar as Interim Supply is concerned, and also address himself somewhat to this amount here. Then I have certain observations I ·~t to make and I am sure other members of the Committee have certain observations. MR. CHA:mMAN: The hon. the Minister of Finance . OR. J. COLLINS: Mr.

Chai=an, you will recall that there was an Interim supply Bill brought in which . covered the period from the lst. of April to the 30th. of June and the sum at that time •.ras $354,120,000. That Interim Supply Bill was brought in before che budget was brought down. Now the present Interim Supply Bill goes on from there, goes on from the lst. of July and extends to the last day of August and 7 of course,as hon. members will understand this is subsequent to the bringing down of the budget although the debate on 1G23

July 30, 1979 Tape No. 403 NM- 2 DR. J. COLLINS: the budget is still going on. The reason for bringing in interim supply, there are two reasons really, firstly is to pay the bills of government which are coming due.. The authority to spend has now run out and to pay our bills we need to have that authority reinstated. And the second reason is that because the Budget Debate will go on for a while furtherJand it is anticipated that thi$ might interfere with certain new projects, this Interim Supply Bill includes amounts for new projects, total amounts I might add because this is what must be done.

If a new project is included in Interim Supply 1 the total amount to be extended over the full fiscal year for that project must be included. Even though the Interim Supply Bill itself is for a set period of time, in this case two IDOnths, even though it is set for that set period of time the new project allocation must be the total amount that will be expended in this financial year. Another-feature about this Interim Supply Bill, Mr. Chairman, is that it will include the amounts of two zpecial warrants which were issued since the time of the last Interim Supply.

There wa£ one special warrant issued in early July, before the House sat following the recent general election, and then there was another special warrant issued shortly after the House sat but again,before a new supply bill had been brought in. Mr. Chairman, I have details on the bill. The hon. members will have had the bill circulated and I think most of the details are in that. I might add that - MR~ ROBERTS: the schedules? OR. J. COLLINS: Are you referring to the back page, The schedules on ~~e back page. . 1C24

July 30' 1979 Tape 404 EC - l OR. J. COLLINS: '!.'hey are just under headings. I might add that this Inarim Supply :atu taken toc;wther with the fU.t Interim Sqpply a~, will ~- us a 1:0t:a.l of nearly $580 llliJ.lj,gn wb..ic:h is ~rozim&tely 48 ~r cent of the totAl a.lloc:&tion that vas asked for in tM -.in Supply Bill, in the Budqet. And. that UIOWlt =-rs the first fi.- IIIDnths of tha ye&r only.

But I voul.c:l. l.iJce t10 reiterate again that tbaae two Int8rilll Supply Bills ao =-r certaJ.n pz:ojects for whic:ll the full. amawat that will be ~ttec:l. this fi.sc:&l year - that tbase IAterilll Supply Bills do include the full amaunt.s for tba- parti.c:ul&r pz:ojects. 1:!lose new pz:ojecta in qyestion relAta to .:ast~g aqreements that ha'98 been made wi.th tha federal go'98%!111e11t, particularly with OREE, but ::artain other aqre-nt.s also, mel. these n­ pz:ojects vi.l.l UIOUilt to $23 .U.l.ion. 'rhey al..so inclucm func:l.s for tha impzo---.t U1c:l. reccnatruction of lli.pays - that i.s $10 llliJ..l.ign, and &DOt.her SUIII of n.early $1 lllilllon for further reccns1:rUCtion o! tha TriiDS-<:&D.ac:l.a lli.qhWay, so that t:l1ase n- pz:ojects UDunt 1:0, very ne~y, $34 lllilllon.

Mr. Cha1Dtml., there are other de~ I .:auld. ac:l.d. but I a nat cartain if 11011. --=~ at this point in t1ma require these, but any that are aakec:l. for I vi.ll. lll&ka an attempt to supply. MR. CSAl::RMAH: (Butt) The non. t:l1a ..Car for Burqao - Bay cl'E~ir. MR. SIMKlNS : Mr. Ch&izman, I th~ the minister. He referred. to i:he UIOUilt earlier voted under Interim Supply as S 354, l:ZO, 000, we are !lOW ~ing ukecl for UJ.Cther $22.5 ai111on, ~vinq us a total of just unc:l.er $600 lllil.llon or $579 lllilllon. I suppose, Mr. ChU=un, in a very clubious way we are ukinq history toc:l.ay.

I do not s-uppose &'liar ~fora ~ a. govwnuaent =- to a lioWM and. look for totu Interim Supply of the o~r of SO per cant of the expMldi.eur. pro<;:raD8 for the year. It is an UZ~prac:edaatec:l. situ.ation and. it bites us back to the lllini-dabate we had 011 the fi.rst Interim Supply requast back in May or April., first vtlen the =rent ainister usumed his portfolio. ADd. I a sura b.e will ~r u well u we do hew 11111c:ll he waa obliged. to squiJ:m when he was a.skec:l. the question by • and others u to whether, in affect, h1..s Interim Supply Bill of that d&te was not a Buc:l.qet. I tclc:l. him. it was.

I told him there would 1C25

J'uly 30 , 1979 Tape 404 E:C - 2 MR. SIMI«)NS; be 110 oth.r Bwiqet before. the uection. Ha ~·- ua various ciates u to when the B~t. miqb:t. COM dawD azu;l M wu off by a~ leut thna -=- OD AllY of tha cl&tea. Wa ue uaw beinq uli:ed, Mr. Ol&izmaD, to qift to ~~a cute ])lanc:ha for so-thiDq of the order of SO per cent of the qoft=-nt's u:pend.iture proqr~. I: u.y fizst of ~. that ia !Uatory, ~ dub:i.oua & sort it ia - but. - ue !Mkinq history todAy, Ul.d I bope it is the kind. of history that will net be re~teci iD the n-.r future.

I bapl,usoJth&t- will. not aqain find oursel'VIIIs t.award.s tba uci of July ultiDq the Hause to apprc- expenditures in a fa:U:ly rabber stallp fuhi!'lll. Bec:au~~e I say to 90-Z!meDt .mbers of tile ca..:i.ttee that th- upenditurea u:e iDC11r%'8d. pretty lllUCh beyond. recall at thi.a point iD time, Ul.d mre md mre the lknwe is bein.q -.-uvared into & z::ubbar s~ pz:ocedure. Now7one C&D Arque thAt it wu nat ltinq Beary who cut off Alme Boleyn 1 s bead, but the ~tiDe or the axa u the c ... .ay be. But. iD tile •- vay you C&D ~ th&t so-.haw the reason !or this ia bee&uae of tha election.

And I aa sura you follow 1ll'f point. If you 90 back b.r enauqb. it ~ b&c:k, not to m dec:t:ion or a c:iurlq• of la&dan iD the Tory Party, 1.C26

July 30, 1979 Tape NO. 405 ow - l MR. R. SIMMONS: it goes back to a lack of fiscal management. Those who pre-determine<! the course of events that the Tory Part:! and the Province gove~entally has been on during the ~ast eiqht months or so, should have had enouqh fiscal responsibility about them to assign a differ=.at set of dates to the various e!Vents. I am talking about the Tory Leadership convention, the election, the whole thine;. Here we are now in Auqust askinc; for money that,. in effect, has been spent in July, has been spent in June , has been sp-t in May.

I could c;et excited if we had,. as has been paraded, a change of administration, if we had fifteen or e~-c;hteen :1ew faces but when I see the same tired faces with new labels then I cannot c;et cauc;ht up in this new administration versus old administra­ tion. I cannot.And I must point the finger at the new-old administra­ tion, the re-labeled but still tired administration,! must point the finger at them for the situation we find ourselves in today, on the 30th. of JUly,where the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) has to 1110unt enouc;h qall to come in here and ask for half <1 billion dollars with the mcney essenua.J.ly commi tad anyway. I say, Mr. Chairman, one of the not so complimentary things which will be said about this administration- if they want to split hairs, this administration and their predecessor who are the same<i!!people - one of the things that will be hunc; around their necks, one of the albatrosses of their administration will be that they introdueed incredibly bad fiscal manac;e-nt into the affairs of the Province. Another, Mr.

Chairman, will be - another of the footnotes about them will be that they manoeuvered the House ever more and more into becominc; a rubber stamp procedure. Eve:rytime this administration comes for interim financing, for Interim Supply rather, or for any authority from the House, it is one of those gun-to-the-head approaches. We have to have it by to1110rrow morninc; or the civil servants will not qet paid. We have to have it by Wednesday or the welfare cheques will not qo out. Always a very convincinq, very forceful, very effective lever which has the effect, Mr.

Chairman, of stiflinc; the debate, of manoeuverinq the Rouse into this rubber 1C27

July 30, 1979 Tape No. 405 ow -· 2 MR. R. SIMMONS: stamp procedure • Of course , in the exa~~~Ple of Anne Boleyn, the axeman had no choice but the axeman very little choice, Becaulll I bet you my bottom dollar, Mr. Chairman, if we hold her down in this procedure any lenqth of time, we are here two or three days,for example,I will write the speech for the member for St. John's :e:ast (Mr. MarShall) on this point-! will not write it, I will just tell YQU what he said ten times before and he will now say it for the elevsnth time. He will be up and sayinc;, 'The poor civil servants will not get paid'.

Those people we are paying $50,000 and $47, ooo, these poor people 7 they will not get paid. They will not be able tor put whole wheat bn!a.d and dairy butter on their tables this week. The welfare people will not get paid.I will hear his speech before Tuesday is out or ~ursuy is out if we hang it down that lone; on this particular procedure. Well , Mr.

Chaiman, these thinqs need to be said.we would like to say them at much more length and we may be obliged to if the minister does not give us some answers during this particular procedure.!ut we will 7 in the first instance,adcpt the stance of saying them quickly . ?.s I say, if we have to say them IIDre slowly and more often and more repetitiously we can do it that way tCQ, that will depend on the kind of answers we get. Mr.

Chai:z:man , one of the observations ! want to make about this bill or this request and therefore about, the Budget as a whole is this myth, this absolutely unfounded, this lll4licious myth that SOIIIt!how this government is biq on resource development. In only one way, Mr. Chairman, is this government big on resource development and that is in talking about it. They are very big on talk! 'lery big on talk! I ask you to take the Estimates, the SW!IIIary page, the Roman Numeral Paqe IV, statement IV "The SU1111114ry of Currer.t Account by Department, or you could take the one 1028

July 30",1979 Tape No. 406 AH-1 ° !'IR. SIMM)NS: capital account for the department for that matter, the followinq paqe, but just the current, juat to qive you an example, it is one that I have done the fiqures on. But I believe I ouqht to do it on the capital acocunt and a little later on in CCIIIIIIittee t miqht do so. We hear all. the ravi.nq about what this qovernment has done in the fisheries area, for example, what they have done in the fisheries area.

Well, if you look at the 1979 fiqures you will find that the revised for 1979 vas $5.7 million and then you see that this year it is $7 .S and you kind of qat enocuraqed. 'lou say from $5.7 million to $7. S, that is a fairly hefty expenditure, that is a size&ble jump, the qove~nt is puttinq their money where their mouth is, until you realize they have played some tric:ka with the fiqures, until you 9'0 bade to last yaar' s estilnatea and you find that last year they reaJ.ly intended to spend nearly $7 million anyway.

You find last year they intencled to spend 6. 6 and anderspent in that department by amount Sl million. Now· that itseJ,f is not a crime. Thank God, we find a department that under spends once in a while. That is not a crime. But the crime, the sin, is in the misconception it leaves. Because you see, Mr. Chai%lllan, in terms of what was needed last year eompared to what is beinq requested this year, the jump is only aboat $1 million, from 6.6 to 7.S,or really less than a 'lllillion, just enouqh,t would submit 1 to acocunt for the inflationary factors.

Or you oculd take the Department of Forestry and Lands for ex11111ple. Last year $16 'lllillion - and here is one t would think that needs some explanation really, $16 million rl!q1Jested. That cannot be riqht because the fiqure is so far off. The net expenditure last year for Forestry and Aqriculti.tre, as it was then called, was $16.1.

Ncw,there has qot to be some discrepancies in the fiqures because - t suppose Aqriculture !las 9one to Rural, but as I adjudqe the fiqures, or look at the fiqures of the department eoncerned, Rural, Aqricultural and Northern, and Lands and Forests, the UtOunts beinq spent on lo.qricul ture are fairly 1029 °

July 30 1979 Tape No. 406 AH-2 MR. SIMMONS: minilllal in comparison to the amounts on Forestry ·. And yet I find by looking at the figures that last year's figure both for Forestry, Agriculture and Lands, !S it was last year;was 16.1 and yet only 8.8 was spent, only a little over half the amount rt!(!Uested on current account was spent. Now there has to be, I say to the Minister of Financ:e, (Dr. Collins) some explanation for that. But having said that, I want you to follow me to the next point.

If you loolt at that table on Roman Numeral v in the es~tes,you will see that last year the net expenditure was 8. 6 and this year they are asking for 12 and so you get all excited, you say, "Bully tor them." they are putting up their expenditure by one third or so, they are really going all out in terms of Forestry and Lands 7 they are going from 8 to 12~ until you look bac:k and see that they were supposed to spend 16 last year • • 'IN !iON. MEMBER: (Inaudible l the depar12!ent. MR. SIMMONS: No , there is more than that to it I would say to the minister and as he studies the fiquras he will find out.

The point I want to maJte here, Mr. C.'lai:z:man, before my twenty minutes expire and I take a spell and get back at it again - Am I out off time , Sir? MR. CHJURMMI: (Butt) MR. SIMMONS: No. The point I want to make is that all this talk about resource development is an absolute myth, an absolute myth. Two thinqs , Mr. Chai:z:man, are helping our fairly strong perfo:z:manc:e in the resource sector right now, two things.

Two thing~ are helping our strong perfo:z:manc:e in the resource sec:tor right now and neither of the!ll have anything to do with this government's fiscal management or economic management of the economy, nothing whatsoever. Two things account for,our strong performance,particularly,insofar as the fisheries are conce.rned; one is the 200 mile limit negotiated by that great federal liberal government under Pierre Elliott Trudeau, the 200 lllile limit - and our great friend and a friend of the Minister of Fisheries, (Mr. W. Carter) , Romeo LeBlanc - that is the first thing, and the other 1.C30

July 30,1979 Tape ~>to. 406 ~- SIMMoNS: t:hin'J, Mr. Ch&izman. that is hel.pi.nq our resource seCtor and heJ.pi.nq it haft a continued stxcncJ perfozmance is our doll~ position, our exc;hanqe rata in CIOIIIParisoa to th~ 11n.ited States , the ~can dall.ar. And I hoJ:>e the pnsiUlt acbinistration acroes the llouse does not take any cftdit or bl- for tbat oae. If the Call&diAD dallai: l:!eqaa at a,ll. to app:r:oa.c;h parity with the 1\maricaa in the next little while this hen.. c:z:'OWd oV8r there • M,r. duli.n~&D, would be hard. put to t:ind s_o- i.ndicaton of qood health in the fishery sector or the forestry seCtor or the lllininq sector. 1C3.1

July JO, 1979 T~ 407 MR. SJ:MMONS: 'l'his p&rtie~Uar sector, preckalinantly aport o:r:i.ented,is dependent !or its health, Mr. C!lai.rman, its qood ha&l.th. ac. dla ~m~t, its CDDd.nuinq qooc~., st:onq per:onauca, IIGt an tba a~c stillulu. whictl thU ~nment thiDka it ia p:ovid.inq.

Ind.eci, its per!o:maAce is s..-b&t cieapita what this ~t is doiDq. 8111: ~mre to the point and 1110re poaiti-.ly, th& pe.z:.fo:cunca in tha re110w:ca sector, I repeat, llu to do l.art;ely with the Canad.i.an dollar rala.ti.ve to its ~:dean coUD.tezpa.rt, and in the c:aae ot. the fishery sector puticu.Larly, relates, of course, to the i.nitiati. v.s taken !edar&l.ly with IIG particular encow:ac;ement, Mr. Ch&i:man, f:om tha pn.ent Minister o! Fisheriu (Mr. w.

Carter) - and r 'oti.st1 he were ha:re nov - in tba face of a nUIIber of !a.irly obst:uctionist tactics by tba p;resent administration, or i! they want to ba semantic:, their pred.ecea110r, tha Moo:res administration , the SUI8 ~m; n i stratioa. vi th the di.ffa:rea.t labels. I ~~a.d.ers~d, Hr. Cllai..rman, that I am just about out of t.iJDe IIQW, but we will have ~ther go at it in a. little •<rili.la. MR.. CBAilU!AH: (Butt) The h.oa.. tha lllalllbar for LaPolla • MR.. IIEA1tt: Hr. Chai..man, first of a.ll., su, I vent to up:ress great ~appoi.ntmllnt at the Minister of Fi.nanc:e (Dr. J.

Colli.na), u lll'f bca.. collaaqua incii.e&ted, on the p:oc:edure that h.e used. to int:oduce this rather substantial Interilll Supply sill. The bon. the Minister of Finuca, Sir 1 except for lll'f !:r:i.enci vba needled hill!. a little bi. t 1 had nG intantiQn at all of qivinq any explanation about this $.25 b.iJ.lian that the bon. ~tlaam was ukinq for in Intarilll Supply. And Add this an to tile p:revioua Intarilll Supply Bill and you are t.al.kinq al)ow: $ • 50 billlon - $500 m.i.l.llon in Interim Supply. Well., lll'f first remark, Sir, lll'f first reaction, is that - fin.ci ourselves in this bon.

House in a 1110st ~~a.usual and unique situation indeed, whe:re we have t11100 Interim Supply Bills beinq b:ouc;ht before the House in the suae year. I do not believe it llas ever happened before . - and two Intarilll Supply3.iJ.ls , Mr. Ch.airman, l:lefore the Bouse <~.t a t.iJDe when- are debati.nq the Buciqet, when we are examininq the 1032

JW.y 30, 1979 'l'ape 407 ::c· - 2 MR.~: Estimates of the ravanua and ~UCpenditure for the year - 1110at unusual indeed. It is 1110st irrequl.ar and 1110at lm\Aav.a.i anci p~aa.i.y nevwr llappenaci oeior• in thi» iiou.e ud· I WOW.cl sw.Lt, Your llonour, 'fti:Y ruelY happened in any other House thzouqhout the free world - two Inta.rilll Supply Bila in the •- year and the McaDd Intllrilll Supply Bill be:fo:ra the House whaD we are ciabatinq the Eau-taa. 'l'bat is indeed, Sir, a. very pec:uliar and stranqe situation indaecl.

I de not know if the:ra is justification for it or nat - I personally dl:l nat believe that there wu. I thiDk tbe qave:mmant could have planned better a.nd than - would ngt find ourselves in this situ.atian. We,ia. Oppaait.ion now find ourselves using up the time of the Intllrilll Supply Bill - the t.ima tb,e cloc:k starts to tic:k off, a.s Your Honour ~ - the ~=t of time - spend on t.'te Inta.rilll Supply Sill is beinq ~ductllcl from tba Mventy-fiw hours that we a.:ra a.llawed to discuss l!:atillla.tes in this Hause. oa yoll .re&l.i.za, Mr.

Chai:z:man, that - are disc:usainq $l.. 4 billion in the Eatimatlla and - !lave seventy-five hours to de it: 'l'he:ra are 365 days 1.n a. year - maltiplied l:ly twenty-four hours, haw liNCh is that? - 8,000 and SOJDB odd hours a. f8ar. And out of that,say, 8,500 hours, the goverm.nt a.:ra generous enauqh to qiVI! us seventy-five hours ta discuss $l.4 billion. Haw qanezoous c:an they get? And the time w are spenciinq now on Interim Supply is beinq deducted fZ'OIIl the sevwnty-fiVI! hours. And this is the hon. crowd, Sir, ~t we heard bellyaching for years about bow the Leqislatu%e was used for a. rYbber staq~.

And on top of that now, Sir, they nave th:rae oo.Uttees meetinq • . 1G33

July 30, 19.79 Tape 408 . PK- l Mr. lfeary: The estimates are not even going to be debated in ~e House, they are farmed out. And we saw the beqinning of the fiasco this morning. That is just the beginning of it. Hidden away! They were generous enough to give us seventy-five hours out of three hundred and sixty-five days a year, twenty-four hours a day, eight thousand and some hours, seventy-five hours. Eighty-seven hundred hours in a year and out of that the government is generous enough to give us seventy-five hours to discuss the estimates. Mr.

Chairman, t~e could talce the whole seventy- five hours just discussing the public debt, which according to my reckoning, page 27 of the Budget, is $2,601,700, that is the public debt at the present time. That is the highest personal per capita debt in the whole of canada. And it has tripled, the public debt has tripled in this Province in less than seven years, and we have nothing to show for it. When the Liberal Administration w~s turfed out of office back on January 18, 1972 1 the total Provincial debt direct a~d indirect, money owing, was between 5800 million and $900 million.

Seven years later it is $2,601,000,000. It is incredible, Sir. It is enough to frighten you. I would not mind, Mr. Chairman , if we had anything to show for it, we have nothing but a record of failures, mismanagement, corruption. That is all we have had in the last seven years. And the new Premier and his colleagues are now telling us that they are born again, a born-again government~ they are not going to accept any responsibility at all fer anything that happened in the past, fer the tripling of this Provincial debt. The hen. the Premier who was a senior minister in Mr.

Moores Government is now telling us that he has been living in sin for the last seven years, but he has been saved, he is born again, and he is in no way responsible for tripling that debt. responsible. No way The hon. Minister of Lands and ~crests (Mr. Morgan) born again. a minister in the Moores Government , the Moores . 1034

July 30., 1979 Tape 408 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: Administration, the Queen's Government, the Moores l\dministJ:ation, a minister in tilat administration not accepting any responsibility at al.l for the mismanagement and tile failures and the lack oi creativity,of developing new industry in this Province. They have not even found a mine, they have not opened a new industry, they never built a fish plant in seven years, and yet the public debt bas tripled. And now the hen. gentleman, the President of the Council (.Mr.

Marshall) who had to bail out of the Moores Administration because of corrupt practices and procedures 7 tells us that he is bo:r:n again, and he is .back into The ao:rn-Again Administration, but wants nothing to do with the tripling of the Provincial debt. No, he turns up his nose at that. Tuzns up his nose at j.t. Wall every minister, Sir, every man who is sitting over there now who was a minister in the Moores Administration has to accept his share of responsibility for tripling the Provincial debt of ~!ewfoundland with nothing to show for it, except the highest taxes in canada, record unemployment.

I know this is going to sound like old hat, Mr. Chai:rman, - SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.

NEARY: - but it will sound like the same - but, Sir, I often wondered why Joey had to keep repeating himself over and over and over and over again. lie did not have to repeat himself over and over and over again for the people to understan~ or the members of this House to understand, he had to keep repeating himself over and over and over again so some of the editorial writers and some of the newsmen would understand, not all of them, so that some of them ·.rould understand, some of those who are serving their apprenticeship, compliments of canada Manpower in this House. MR.

I-IJRGAN: It is not Wick Co ,lins, for sure. MR. NEARY: No,not Sticky Wicky. Sticky Wicky knows what it is all about, and he is not very complimentary to the administration these days. But he knows, Sir, what the publi.c debt is all about. And I k.."low what it is all about. Sut you have got some of these . 1035

July 30, 1979 Tape No. 409 SO-l MR. S. NEARY: gentlemen who say, "Ah well, you knew, there they 9'0 aqain, they are bellyac:hinq about the public debt." Well, we know what the public debt is~ Tha1: is what they are saying, well, you are not tellinq us anythinq new. twenty we have in this debate? MR. J. OlR'l'ER: MR. F.B. ROWE: MR. S. NEARY: Well, Mr. - is it ten minutes or Five. Tan. Ten minutes? Oh well, I will have to co- back at it aqain because I want to talk a little bit about the Premier's house. '!.'hat is included in this Interim S~ply Sill. I qot an answer to a question today, Mr. Chariman, from the hen.

Minister of Public Werts and Services (Mr. H. Younq) who is goinq to spend SlOO,OOO, $100,000 to renovate the Premier' s house. '!.'hat could build four houses· fer ordinary people in this Province and that certainly could qi ve a lot of eyeglasses and a lot of dentures to senior citizens and little children in this Province who need eyeqlasses and wheelchairs but I will talk about that - my time is up. I will come back and I will have another qo at it, Mr. Chari.man., and my colleaque, I do not know where he is gone. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. W. MARSHALL: MR. CBAIRMMl: (Butt) · Council. MR. W.

MARSHALL: He is still down in the - Mr. Chai.z:man. '!.'he hen. the President of t.lte Executive ~. Chairman, I do not, contrary to t.'le hen. member for LaPoile (Mr. s. Neary) , I do not propose to waste "~>'erda, at least I hope I am not g"Oinq to waste words on 111atters of the public debt. The resource development, spoken of by the member for Surqeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. R. Simmons) and other such 111atters are matters that, I would suqqest to this Collllni ttee , can perhaps be best dealt with when the committees consider the Budget as the Budget is before them.

However, I do wish to speak for just a moment on the observations 111ade by both previous speakers with respect to the amount of this Interim Supply Bill. 1.036

July 30, 1979 Tape No. 409 SD - 2 MR. W. MABSHALL: It has been stated that this liOuse has sought five IIIDnths Inter.:im Supply. That is not so, Mr. Cha.il:11lan. The past House sought thz:ee montlls Intar.:im Supply, an election intervened and now - are merely seeking two montlls Inter.:im Supply which represents the payments which had to be made out in July for wlU.ch there were special warrants allli for August 1110nt11 while the Budget is being considered by the House or by the ccmmittees of the !louse.

Now, the hen. member f;)r Burgeo - Bay ci 'Espoir {Mr .R.Simmons) , wben he was speaking, referred in his c011111ents to when the three months Supply Bill was passed in the last session of the last as&Uibly of this House which took place in March of this year. At that particular time I remamber well the Opposition - and he -ntions the same tired faces over here, Do they not wiah they had the same tired faces over there in the profusion that they have over h.ere? 'nlere would be a different situation. But the fact of the matter is, Mr.

Cha.il:11lan, that at that particular time when !nte~ Supply was brought before the House, there was the rational raason f9r debate that normally comes up in Inter.:im Supply where no Buciqet has been brought before the liouse or before the Committee ami there were observations made to that and.. At this particular time, tha Budget Speec:il has been given, the Budget is here, all of the items of axpenditure have been set out.

What is really askllld in this Interim Supply Bill is for t1110 months !nter.:im Supply which represents one-fift;~ or on-sixth of the year's expenditure and. can be directly related to the depart:llents as set fortll here. For instance, I will not do the mathematics when I am on my feet here but the fact of the matter is that it is just merely one-si.xtll of the votes for the departz:lent as set forth 7 with one or twa exceptions ,;.s the Minister of Finance (Dr. J.

Collins) has indicated, which are for specific capital projects in order to have highway paving c:cntinued during the SUIIIIIIBr months and in order to do the proqrammes which are federally funded. So it is not a case of h.a.vinq the House rubber stamp a.'"l.ytlling, it is not a case of attempting to get approval for axpenditure without giving all of the details. I suggest to you, 1G37

. J July 30, 1979 Tape No. 409 SD - 3 MR.. w. MABSBAtJ'.J t.l:at tM d.ataJ.ls have be!Ul .Plit fortl:l quite fully in the Budqet SpeeCh aJ)d in 1:M Estilatllt:es whiCh a:e bafoJ:e t:ba eo-ittee itself ·<Uid ; woW.4 SUCN•t tl\&t cutatr&ly, it han. ~ feel that it is necetUia:t7 for d.eb&te, dabate s.bauld c~ ~ntiJNa. O.bviowtly, J; am act sayi.Dg t.l:at !mt what I a~ sayinq is , 1U38

J'uly 30, 1979 Tape No. 410 GE:-1 MR. MARSHALL: there is full information and it is not as the hen. member for Burqeo-Bay d'Espoir indicated that we were seenng supp.Ly m tile dar.k and seeking a. caJ:te bl;a.nchto, as .i. t w.az:e, which was what he said, of expenditure. We are not seeking that. The experutitures, as I say, are detailed in the Budget itself.

As for the other matters with respect to the public debt, resource development and what have you, creativity in the projects that have been started by this government, I will certainly draw issue with anybody in this Rouse with respect to the performance of the present administration, but I think that t.'la.t could be best left, in my own opinion anyway, in the Budget Speech itself rather than in the matter of Interim Supply. MR. NEARY: to say or do, are you? MR. CHAIRMAN: (Mr. Butt) MR.~: (inaudible) or even want to. MR. NEARY: You are not going to tell them what The hon. member for Lapoile.

Last person in the world I I do not even want to. Mr. Chairman, I do not knew what the message ·~s the hen. gentleman was trying to get through to the Chairman of the Committee of the Whole, but •11hatever it was I would submit that Your Ronour ignore it. This is a wide open debate, and the hen. gentleman again in his own little cute way is trying to restrict debate in this Rouse. we know the rules, Mr. Chairman, as well as the hen. gentleman. The hen. gentleman does not have to get up and give us a lecture about the Budget being brought down and this sort of foolish nonsense. Mr.

Chairman, here is a golden opportunity for us in this Rouse to get some facts and some information brought out on the floor, on the table of the House, rat.~er than down in the back rooms of Colonial Building somewhere, and that is what we intend to do. At least, that is what I intend to do~ I guarantee the hen. gentleman that. And I am not going to go traipsing off to some little hole outside of the Rouse of Assembly where we should be debating and discussing estimates. And then the hen. gentleman gets up and tries to relay some kind of a cute little message to the Chairman that the . 1G39

July 30, 1979 Tape No. 410 GH-2 MR. NEARY: hon. Chairman is not going to fall for. The hon. gentleman has only been here a short while but he knows 1110re iUlOU~ 1:he rules than tbd.t, tilan ::h.:. hon. gentleu~au i;a tryio.g to give him credit for. Anyway, when I took my seat before, Mr. Chairman, I was talking about the Premier's house, Mt. Scio Bouse, and I was given an answer to a question today by the han. Minister of Public Works and Services (Mr. s:. Young), and we all know that Mt. Scio House is going to cost SlOO,OOO to renovate, SlOO,OOO.

That could build four houses for the poor people of this Province, probably build five. MR. YOONG: building lot. You would have to pay that for a MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon~ i<iho paid it for a building lot? I beg the hen. gentleman's pardon, is the hon. gentleman trying to say something? MR. YOUNG: What kind of house can you build for S25,000, name it, where can you get it? MR. NEARY: ·!'he hen. gentleman is asking me what kind of a house can you build for $25,000. Well, Mr. Chairman, give me SlOO,OOO to take down to - AN S:ON. MEMBER: Davis Inlet. MR.

NEARY: - no, not Davis Inlet - to take down to my own district in Burnt Islands or Rose Blanche or Grand Bruit or Lapoile or Petites, give me $100,000 and I will get four houses built and they will be fit for the hen. gentleman to walk into. They will be fit for the Queen to go into, let alone the hen. gentleman. Four houses~ But look at all the eyeglasses it would buy for little children who need eyeglasses, or wheelchairs, or crutches for little children who cannot get them now, the government has no program to give crippled people or to give little children wheelchairs.

Ah, the hen. gentleman is screwing up his face at that. Mr. Chairman, the point I am trying . 1040

Ju.ly JO, 1979 Tape No. 410 MR. Nli7.RY: to ·make here is, Sir, that it is about time that we i:n this hon. House started talking about matters that afftK:ted t.be orcii.lla%y llrewfoundlandar- and not just try to make things c:cmfortable for ourselves. I want to point out riqht from the start, Sir, that nowhere else in the whola of Canaqa, nowhere in ~ other grovim:e of· Canada, does the government provide the !'remier with a house, no other pJ:OVince of canada eJa:ept tiewfoWI'Uand., except in Newfouwnand, Mr. Chai.xman• Oid Your Eionour know that before?

There is no other province of Canada, apart from Newfoundland, who gives the Premier a house. !ifell, Kewfound.latlders ue pretty hospitable and generous pe¢ple and maybe they say, "Wel:l, t.be PQOr old Premier daserves a house" • well, okay, let us say that that is so; let us say that Newfoundlanders are different than other canadians, that we are wealthy enouqh here; that we do not pay 7ery I!WlY taxes in Newfoundland; we do not have the hiqhest Social Security tax in Ca.nacia; ..re do n.ot have record unemployment; we do not pay the highest taxes in canada: we do not pay the sec;ond highest electricity rates in canada, so why should we not give the Premier a house? 1041.

July 30 ,. 1979 Tape 411 EC - 1 MR.~: Let us say that is the way they feel about it. Tha qene:ous N-foundl~rs say, 'Sun, boy, 90 ahead., have & house.' Okay, that is Una, Sir, I wiU 90 alonq wiu that if tll&t is wnat the Nevfo•md]az~d. people say. Butta spend $100,000 then, Mr. 01&i%l111Ul, to renovate it, I would. say, Sir, is goin.q a little bit too far. There is m UQ~pla, Sir, of the oriqina.l beqqu on hor.s .aback - $100,000. And. I uked a question on t.he Order Paper of the bDn. the Mini.star of Public Works (Mr. li. Yolmq).

I sAid.,' Give - a list showinq the fi;letUres, &ppliances, fUJ:nituxe, paintiJlq etc. to be purchased far Mount Scia Bouse.' And. back =-s t1w ~r, 'Nat yet d.etuwined. ~ information wl.ll be avail.Mile after the !ittinq up, incl.udinq t!1a purchase of furniture, appliances, etc.is c:amp.leted. ' In other vord.a, Sir, they cannot d.etanaine the aJmunt. And then I said., 'Give • the coat of lll&intaininq Mount Scio House attar it is occupied :by the Pnmier.' Aqain., back co-• the ~r, ''1'his fiquxe llaa not yet b-n deta:rmined. 1 And. sa it goes, Mr. Olainlan.

In other vord.a , ve do not lcm:lw whether it is going to coat $100, 000 or $1.50 ,000. The fi.quxe, ac:cord.inq ta the anawe%' the lllinistar ~- - today in writinq, is not yet detenained. It could. be 1110re than $lOO,OOO. But I also, Sir, uked the hon. qentlllliWl a couple of 1110ra questions in COIIDection vi th Mount Scio House.

And one of the questiOns I asked. the hon. qentleman, and be could. have got • the information but he decl.ined. to do so, md I hope the born-aqain Premier will take note of this - thi.s is the ltind of co-operation that led. us into the ~tic situation - -re into in this Rouse for seven years when his predecessor was here - I uked the hon. gentleman to find. out if .nd vhen Mount Scio liousa waa d.ecl.ared. the official residence of the P:remier if tb.IU':e vas my rental owinq on th&t bouse. Bee&uae remember, Mr. 01&i%m&n, that when Mr. Frank Moores beCUIII Pnmier of this P:ovince he rented.

Mount Scia Bouse for $650 a. IIIOJlth from. M81110rial UzU.wrsi.ty. And the question I put on the Order Paper !or the hon. ~tleJUn - Was th&t rent paid to lleiiiDrial t1nive:rsity or to the p:ovinci&l Department of Public ifo:dcs up to the time it vas declared tha official residence of the Premier just a !- vee.ks ago? 'nl.e han. qentleman came back &nd here is the answer h.e 1C42

July 30, l979 TIIPI 4ll. EC. - 2 MR. NEARY: ac:caas to inta:m&l. financ:i.U i.D.fonaation conceminq ~rial University 1114 ita tenants.' ·· Mr.- ChaU1Mn.·,- · th.&~ ia ·not ciqht .uui · .i.t is not tru.. -­ Who i.s tbe governMJlt of this Province? Who is the g~t, Mr. Ch~? nw bon. 'JWiltl-..D ill a lllinister of the Crown 1114 they aze gove:rzl.i.nq this Pravi.D.ce and. th8 tlni-rsity is a. c:reaturt~~ of this Rausa and. of this ga-=uaent.

And why could. not th8 hon. 'JWiltl..U. call up the account.mlt down there or send. h.ia over the question and say, 'Would. you answer this for _.,' Wb.y would. not th8 hon. gentleman do it? Because the llon. g-entlUWl ,anted to be =c:o-operati.,.. 'Dle hon. gm1tl..an does ll.&ve th8 ac:cess to that infonaation and. can ~t it 1114 should b.&- gotten it before l1a rushed into tna RoQSe with. l1i..s -r.

And than I ukad. also, Did. th8 Oali:venity or the go~t '~trite o£f any &man owing in rent by the previ.oua PrUiiar, Mr. !'rank Moores prior to Mount Scio llouaa beinq ciac.l4red tha offi.ei.al. raaicianCI of the Prellier? Ancl &CJ&inr ~ =-• the ~r, 'My ciapart8ant 1043

July 30 1 1979 Tape 412 IB-1 MR. NEARY: department does not have access to Memorial university's financial da~. The- hen. gentl.e:::ar. =ol!l.d ha·r~ qc':':en ~ t~at j nf.,r>Mti.on. Now I have got to go about it again to try to get the information, put another question on the Order Paper. 'i'i'ho do I have to get the information from, Mr. ehai.rlllan? I come into this House as an elected member of the people of this Province and I ask a minister of the Crown a question. I de not ask the university.

I do not ask Newfoundland Hydro, I de not ask the flunkies, I ask the minister responsible and I get pawned off and it is not good enough, Sir. It is not good enough. Because! have a feeling, Mr. Chairman, that one of the reasons Mount Scio House was declared the official residence of the Premier, I have that strange feeling, was because there was a substantial amount of rent in arrears owillg on it. I would think $40,000 or $50,000. Take seven years rent, Sir, $650 a month for six years, that is over $40,000.

I doubt very much,although I could be wrong but I want to find out and that is why I asked the question, but now I have to take a shot in the dark because I can only come to the conclusion that the hen. gentleman refused to get me the infonnation and tried to cover up. I have the strangest feeling, Mr. C.'lairman, that no rent was ever paid on that house and if it was it was only paid for a short while and that is one of the reasons why it was declared the official residence of the Premier retroactively,so that the rent would not have to be paid and we are talking about $40,000 or $50,000. I could be wrong.

I hope I am. But I want the information and I want it straightened out. I also want straightened out, Sir - and the hon. gentleman says here, he confirms something I already knew anyway, that neither the University, Mr. C.'lairman, nor the provincial Department of PUblic Works authorizied any renovations for that house, Yet Metro Engineering 7an A.B. Walsh Company 7 went in and renovated the downstairs part of that house. And the hen. gentlemen may look at me and say, well so what, what is wrong with that? AN HOU. MEMBER: (Inaudible) enough time (inaudible). MR.

NEARY: well, I only have a minute left, Sir, and somebody else wants to speak and I will get up and I will tell the hen. gentleman what I am talking about. I will tell the hen. gentleman about the gift 1C44

July 30, 1979 Tape 412 IB-2 MR. NEARY: that was given to Mr. Frank 0. Moores, a gift of renovating the of Public Works or without any approval from Memorial Oniversity. AN EION. MEMBER: (Inaudible) if you can get it. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? AN !ION. MEM£ER: By leave, if you can get it. MR. NEARY: No boy, I have my leave. I have all the time I want. The hen. Leader of the Opposition is going to have a few words now.

But it is something that should be looked at, just another one, a continuation in the series of things that we saw go on in this Province that are not going to be swept under ~~ rug even though the hon. gentlemen may try to protray the impression that they are born again. These matters are going to have to be dealt with. And it would not do us any harm to spend a couple of hours on Interim Supply to try to get some answers and try to get some facts and some information out to the people of this Province. My time is up, Sir, I realize that.

So I will yield now and let somebody else have the floor but I will be back at it again. MR. CHAIRMAN (BU'l"l'): The hon. Minister of Finance. OR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, a number of points have come up and perhaps this would be a convenient time to answer them. Firstly, the question was raised, whether the first Interim Bill that was brought in in this fiscal year was a budget. Mr • . Chairman, that is putting a rather extreme

interpretation on things. The first Interim Bill was a housekeeping bill plus certain capital projects and, as I have explained, at that time and similarly in this Interim bill, any new capital projects have to be budgeted in their full amount, the full ' amount that will be expended over the whole year on those particular projects. So t.'1e first Interim Supply Bill could not be called a budget in any way. The point was also raised that it must be very unusual to have two Interim Supply Bills. I do not know if it is all that unusual, Mr. C.'lairman.

If I recall co=ectly the federal government has brought in two full budgets in a twelve month period. We hcrv.e not gone that far yet 7 ours are just two Interim Supply Bills. It . 1045

JUly 30, 1979 Tape 4-12 m-3 DR. COLLDfS: was suqqested that these are excessivel.y larqe Interim Supply Bills. 'l!\ey are larqe Interim Supply Bills, there is no doubt about that. ADd !:he reason for it is that the budqat is late and this is somewhat unique, I suppose 1 but nevertheless it is a fact of life. And if govermnent is to have its ongcinq housekeeping and other responsibilities taken care of as well as to take adVantage of the cost- sharinq arranqed with the federal qoveDllllE!nt, which if we do not take advantage of will pass us by. So we have 1046

July 30, 1979 Tape No. 4U so - · l DR. J. COLLINS : to taka advantaqe of these. And tllen there were especially la.z:o;e expenditures in reqard to hio;hway const:uction. IL tlle two Interim supply Bl.lls, Mr. Chairman -I have the DOte b.ere - I tbink tb.a total amounts tb.at we will actually be expeMi"'i on transportation ccmes to a total of $86,100,000. It: was $39.6 million in tile first Interim Sup:ply Bill and. $46.5 million, so $86.l m.il.lion expended. on transportation projects wb.ich is a very $iza.Dle amount.

If we look at this particular uill itself, we will see that ao;ain trar.sportation p:rojec+"-.s ccme to $46.5 llli..llion, otb.ar cost-sbarinq projects - $16.4 llli..llion. so the onqoinq or hclusekeepinq and other routine expenditures of qov~ent ~ fwlded are $162.2 milJ.ion,ap:p:roximately. New, if one takes tile total cUrrent axpend.itura for the year, wbich is just over $1.1 billion, that worlcs out at approximataiy $89 lllillion a month and so that $l62 llli..llion for t:bis twc mcnth period is DOt out of line with what one would expect for a two mcntb period. The COmmittee, Mr.

Cha.il:man, :uay be interested. in lalcwing" the details of the cost-sharinq projects that are covered in this Interim Supply aill. In tbe Department of Elealtb., the MaJckoori.k Clinic - $100,000. In the Oapartlllent of Forestry, I should, actually, i:lave the proper llallles for tbese, the Oepa.r=ent of Forestry and Aqriculture; that name is the onqoinc; name, $400,000, that is for forestry reforestation and thinnin.c; projects. The Department of Tourism, Gross Morna National Park - $230,000. The Department of Fisheries for inShore fi.shery development proo;rams - $375,000.

The Department of Industrial Development !or NORDCO, this is current expenditure - $475,000. The Department of Rural Development for Labrador development proc;rammes, includinq those under t:he Eskimo and Indian agreement - $2.9 million. And the Department of Municipal Affairs and liou$inq, Newfoundla.nd and Labrador liousino; Corporation - S2 llli..llion. . 1C47

July 30, 1979 Tape No. 413 SD-2 DR. J. COLLINS: The final point I would like to make at this stage, Mr. Chairman, is that the Premier's house, this may well be a subject for legi~imate debate but the Premier's house is not actual.ly included in the Interim Supply. That, in a way, should be more properly debated during the lllilin Supply. MR. E. ROBERTS: Well, that is wrong. The minister, if I might, is wrong because there certainly is in the Interim Supply ~ney to pay at least one official who is doing some work on the Premier's house, so it is quite in order to debate it.

Whether it should be debated or not is another stor'J, bue it is quite in order to debate it, I would submit. DR. J. COLLINS : well, the expenditure, I will check that out as the hon. member has brought it up by the" expenditure - MR. E. ROBERTS: There may be nothing in there for capital expenditure I do not doubt - DR. J. COLLINS: MR. E. ROBERTS: Right, that was what I was referring to. - but I thought I heard him to say that since this amount does !lot include anything for the Premier's - whatever is to be done at Mount Scio House, ehat it could not be debated.

Sut the point I was making is simply that Interim Supply really is the most wide-open supply debate you can imagine because if, for example, as there is doubtlessly, salary for the Deputy Minister of Public Works including, then it would be quite proper to mention Mount Scio House because that comes under the Deputy Minister of Public Works. I think the minister can see what I am getting at, there is no limit at all to this debate that is all I am saying. DR. J. COLLINS: The hon. member was on his way in, perhaps I did not express myself properly.

I did not mean to say that it could not be debated, what I meant was it could more properly be debated as the capital costs are not included in the Interim Supply Bill. !1R. E. ROBERTS: Well, some may say we will never get to see the capital costs. 1048

July 30, 1979 Tape No. 4l.l so - 3 HR. CHAJ:RMAN: (Butt) '1'.ba bon. the Le~ of the Opposition. MR. D. J'AMIESOth Well, Mr. Cb.&izman, I was only qoizlq to say a f- ~ this ilfterDoon and, i.Jxieed 11!10114ared wether I ouqht to say anytl;linq a.t all or wait for tbe major BUdqet debate ~t wben tbe GoYal:DDent !louse t.eaGar (Mr. if.

Marsllalll, as I walked in 1 suqqested tbat in SOllie w;ay or other there was so- iaprop.riety in havinq 1IIBIIIbars on this side or oa the qavar1111ent sicie,for that 111Attar7 deal with specific iteals tmcier Interim S!jpply, than I felt the necessity to qat up to reuae.rt what is ~ely one of tba BK)St tnmamentill and. 11acha ll~U~qeable Upec:ts of pa.rlii&menta%y ciemocraC:y ~ tbat is, that if the qovarn~~~ent bri.Dqs in Dlta.rilll Supply it runs tba hua.rd of whatever 1049

July 30, 1979 Tape 414 £C. - l MR. JAMIESON: lcinci of dabata tha Oppout.ion or i.Ddeecl., a.-a of its own members may wish to brinq up.

And for tha so-~ Oil' tile ~t si.cie \Mr. ~~ w S\a9911St that because - hAft es~lisbad certain =-ittau in this !louse to deal. wi.th cart&iJI ba~ of expenditure that ~tly this pard.c:ul.&r dabate ouqht to ba limi tad and. n&nOV is a repudiation, I rwpeat, o! oDa of the -t ~tal principles o! pa:r.l.i..uEltuy d8mcrac:y Uld. tbe:ra!o:re, for 'fl':/ part, I fHl that I ouqht to put that on tha record and. at the •- time say a f- wo:rcis iD a qana:r&l way to also radfi.zla that than are no limitations insofar u this p&:rticul.&:r dabete u concuneci.

I Walt to p&:rUc:ularly talk aDout tile ..tta:rs wbi.ch. ~M:ra r&Ued by tlla IIIUiba:r for Burqao - Bay d 'Espoir (.Mr. S'-•1 with raq&rd to tile saeainq, t:ba illiiSOry da~..ntal pol.i.ciu of this ~t. But before I do that I also WIUJ,t . to s;ay a word al)out so- o! the thinqs which. tha :MIIIber for r..Polle (Mr.

Neary l lUda referanc:a to e&:rl.iar thia &!ta:ncon, and tllat is that I IINSt say that sattinq as:i.da tlla subatant:i...,. quation as to whethar or nat and wtut.t kind of pez:Xa ouqht tD ba pzovided for electeci .ambers or l'lu.ds of <JO~t or wh&ta"'er, I find it e~ly surprisi.nq tll&t it was not posaibla in this mawer tableci by tlla Ki.D.ista:r of Public Works (Mr~ Yo1mq) tDciay tD at the very leaat i.Dd:i.cate the answers in a 1110:re specific W3.Y thaD silllply to slow;h it off. on tba Oniversity.

Now it tb&t is the case it is probably a COIIIIpletely dafenaible UlSWa:r in law and in every other -y, but you kiiCw and I lcDow - Uld. I eJaph&size once aqa.in.- I ua not here t&lkinq al)ou.t tl'1e rights or the privileqaa or the cone~Paians tllat III&Y be made, I am silllply sayinq that who they are lll&de 1 whether they are Mda to tbe P7:811iar, the I.e.Aer of the Oppoa:i. tion or any ~ of this House, the public has a riqht to lcnaw. And that is tbe fundu.nt&l. point that is &t. uau. n.re.

And I suqqest, in line vi th the c:u.rrent Pnaier. s I I believe, sincere anxiety and wish, to have the public record as total as it is possible to be, that there u nothi.nq illlproper aDout tha questions that -re asked by the IIISIIIber for Lalloile , -d that JMmba:rs on th:Ls side 1050

Ju.ly 30, 1979 Tape 414 EC .- 2 MR. JAMIESON: should at the very least be 'ii ven the kind. o~ inlon~&tion wbi.ch awn, u h.e h.imaelf h.as said, lii&Y simply be th&~ wb&~ l1e h.u s~sUCI. 1s untxw~. If anybaciy oppoai:a is qw..u prepared to say that these .-l.leqationa or thue suspic:icna or these J:""Qiaurs aza =~·then it u U.O one of the stronqest rules of parli...n~ proc:.dure th.&t - liiiWit acc:ept that. An4 c:.rtainly for IIY part, I voul.d be 100 per cent ' prepared to do just that.

So therefore, I want to just ill pusinq say that this kind of ans-r, the first part, I thillk, is entirely co~ciaale and I believe it reflects on what the current Premier intends to do. I am perfectly happy to wait to see what this list u and. so on and. so forth - I have no problem with that. iih&t does worry -· hawever, u th.&t when we qet to certain thinqs in questions

d) e) and

f) that there is a kind of - well, almost a cop-out by sayinq, 'My dapartment does CQt h&ve accass to Melllorla.l Oniversity's financial data' Nov - .&ll IUlcW veJ:Y well that there is a. 11110re solid and a lll:)re subatantiva answer thaD that, and I would. arqa the ~w=ment to take another look at SCIIIIIt of these questions if for cg other ra.&IIOn than to clear the air.

Becauae if - aza ~inq in this House to nave open and frank dab ate and i.f we are ~inq to have, by the way, the type of friendly co-oparativa , .&Lthough albeit. on occ:asion · combative a.c:t.ivi.ty on behalf of the people of Newfoundland- md it is cgt •ncugb. to simply sit back and say, 'Oh, well, thia is a smear tactic,' or 'This is just inn.-ndo, ' - one n.. to recoqni.za tlat soiiiiS of these questicna are raised in a vary leqi tim&te and a wry fair form. And lii&Y I , by the way, compli.mant the Minister o~ Justice (Mr. Ottanheimar) in this regard.

It h.as bean to - a real breatl:l. of fresh air to b.&Vll the minister qet up, and., by the way, I tharo"Q91lly aqree with him tbi.s afternoon - whether I disaqne with the -llber for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) or cgt, I am cgt sure - wllen he says that h.e is cgt at lil:lerty to giv. the source of the confidential info:rmation on wtlich. any Jcind of inveati.qation is laid. I agree with that. So consequently, tb.is is cgt just a lll&tter of saying that whatever we do on this side - are .&ll ~inc; to be in agreement or whatever is done o"ftr there other than in the m:Lnistzy, you are all ~inq to be in aqreu.nt.

But nevarthelesa , the Minister of Justice h.as set a very qood example 1051.

July 30, 1979 MR. JAMIESOH: MR· NEABY: iiR. • .. ~'1: Why? MR. NEJUlr: MR.. .nuaESOH .: with tM BouM. T~ 4l4 EC .- 3 and has laicl & iWIIIilu of ghosts to rest - Ri¢.t. - · wi~ il !ll&tte:z: ot twa. ar ,.t~uae. ~·-·· . _ .. A f- IIII)J:e to c;o yet. Why? Bec&uH he was open aacl he wu f:z:aDJt 1D52 .. ..... .. .

July 30, 1979 Tape No. 415 Gli-l MR. JAMIESON: There was nothing devious about his answers. Where he could give them, he gave them. Where he could not give them, we have a respect. fer h:i.s. integri .ty which is adequate fer me, and so, therefore, I recommend that same kind of process all throughout. We are not going to get anywhere if, when a meml:ler asks a ~sti.cn which is potentially embarassing,or if a member asks a question which ~y be based on the very kind of confidential information to which the Minister of Justice (Mr. G.

Ottenheilller) has referred and he cannot disclose it, he is instantly accused of net having any subs~ce fer what he is asking. ~o ccnsequently,the Minister of Justice's defence is surely precisely the same defence that we on this side of the House have when we ask questions sometillles and people say to us, "Well, give us the facts". So consequently, it is in a feeling of openness and general co-operation that I am quite sure that we can dispel! a lot of the unreasonable and unnecessary tensions and the like that have existed from time to time throughout this House.

And by the way, you know, in any jurisdiction it is also surely a matter of ladies and gentlemen, as we now are in this House, having the capacity to accept each other's word. Surely one of the most fundamental premises upon which this kind of institution functions is that we have a situation where we are completely satisfied that we are levelling, ~n a sense, with each o~~er. I make these points in passing lest there be some doubt that I do not support my colleagues or some of my colleagues or the member for Lapoile (Mr. s.

Neary) when he asked what I consider to be perfectly legitimate questions and when he gets what are, in my judgement, quite inadequate answers from a parliamentary point of view. Now, Mr. Chairman, I was , as I have said, going to talk at some length about what the member for Burgee­ Bay d' Espoi.r (Mr. R. Simlllons) had to say about the continuing emphasis which this government, and I call it this government since 1972, whatever the transformations or the transitions may be it is still 1053

July 30, 1979 Tape NO. 415 GH-2 . MR. JA.."UESON: this government that has been consistently in office during all of that time, and really I do wisil - I ·wou.ld ·al.mcst - if we were in a filiDw.t= which io; ou.:r of the things that I can assure the hen. House Leader I have no intention of get~~g into, I would like to begin with this sheaf of documents going back to 1972 and coming clear on through to the most recent Sudget and the most recent Throne Speech and see how many times the same words have !Jeen used about "We are going to put our full effort behind fisheries development.

We are going to maximize the income from our resources". It has been going on altogether too long. I can almost paraphZ:ase them year after year, that we have been getting an inadequate return from our resources.

Each one has parroted the other from 1972 right clean on through to the present day, and the end result, however, the end result of al.l of that in this particular set:. of interim supply measures which we have before us today is a series of expenditures which are fundamentally the same in terms of the resources that they are supJ;iorting as those of 1972.. w1len I talked across the floor the other day in one of the debates to, I believe it was, the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy and Industrial Development (Mr. L.

Barry) and I put it to him fairly and bluntly that whatever the verbiage that is in the Budget, whatever is in the Throne Speech, the truth of the matter is that this year as in l972,this government is staking the economic future of this Province for the next five years, by and large, on the fishery and on hydro developments in Labrador. Now, there will be peripheral activity. I could quote

chapter and verse again from 1972 on on the very item which the gentleman, the Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. J. Morgan) I believe it is, talked about this afternoon - sawmilling. The first Throne Speech talked about sawmilling. This one talks about it. Today we are studyil"; it. We are going to send another group out. So, from 1972 on, we have gambled; we had the whole business in Bay d'Espoir turning bottom up . 1054

July 30, . 1979 Tape No. 415 GH-3 . ~IR.. JAMIESON: and I realize there have been improvements, I am not saying that, · I am. saying, however, and the hon. the Premier will also know surely 1055

July . ~0,1979 Tape No. 416 Rr-1 MR. JAMI:ESON: that in te:rms of, for example, th~ Bay d'Espoir operation, it has qone through about three transforMations again. We have also had the N-foundland and Labrador Development Corporation,about which I had son. knowledge, which ti- after till!e said that it saw the future in the forest industry but it really has not ellll!lr!ied in anything like the dramatic way which was forecast in all of these.

Now this is not to say,by the way, that I do not arque or do not support the idea of examining the forest industries to see whether they can be 111axilnized, but I would invite hon. members opposite also to look at the number of occasions when, for example, the "nl.rone Speech or a budget, or sODie DREE expenditure has been dedicated to harvesting - always, by the vay-, an adjective in it - harvesting the limitless resources, timber resources, or sa~~ething of that sort, of Labrador. It is in aqain now.

So, therefore, while I realize that my time is up for this occasion, I emphasize once again that we should not delude ourselves. I suspect the Premier does not.

And I am quite prepared myself to say that it makes SODII!I sense now to be hard-nosed and hard-headed in the next few 11110nths and s;ay, 'Okay, will it work or will it not?' but what I think will be the real test of this government is when it has to qat up and say, "Look it here, we have examinee! this and it is a dog's breakfast; it is not qoinq to work and we are going to turn it off.' And when we qet to that point then I think we will start to put some reality into Newfoundlanders as to what to their real econ0111ic futun is.

But as long as one speech after the other keeps scyinq, boys juat hanq n.r dolm mother f• II:IDths and we will have Labrador oa stream,' or with the qnatest of respect to my friend, the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) that, 'We are qoing to have Cane by Chance, you know, it 11\&Y be next week, it may be next 1110nth, but it is coming.' It would be far better to be brutally, candidly frank, and say, 'We have done this study and this thing is not going to fly. ' That is the kind of hard-nosed reality that I hope will be introduced and that is why I have not been, if you 1C56

July 30, 1979 Tape No. 416 RT-2 MR. JJUt:IESO!T: like, as critical or as h;u:sh in texms of all of these new studies which ara now said to be underway. But, basically, let us hope that that is the approach which the govenunent is qoinq to take • SOME !ION. !'!EMBERS : MR. CHAI:RMJIN: (Butt) P~ER PECXFORD: Rear, hear! The hon. the Premier. I feel it is necessary to reac:t to a nUIIIber of the thinqs that have been said on the opposite side of the Rouse this afternoon. First of all, I find the Leader of the Opposition 1 s c:omments very, very ocmical indeed. Re wants me to be frank.

He wants this qove:cunent to be frank and I have to be frank with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jamieson l .

I have watched the hon. the Leader of the Opposition in Ottawa for a number of years and if he wants me to be candidly frank, and he has motivated 1118 to get to my feet on this, let me say to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, if he were as frank when he was Minister of External Affairs ~nd the minister respon~ible for Newfoundland 1 s affairs in the cabinet of Canada as he is asking this government to be now as it projects itself into the future, then he would have taken different steps and said different thinqs at that ti111e than he actually said.

And I think most particularly of stat81118nts that the Leader of the Opposition made on many, many occasions both in St. Lawrence and out of St. Lawrence, on the Burin Peninsula and in Ottawa as it relates to the future of either St. Lawrence or any particular reqion in this province when it comes to resource development. The Leader of the Opposition knows only too well he can not have his cake and eat it too either when it comes to talkinq about resource development.

He cmmot on the one !\and. stand up here in this House or anywhere in this province and say, 'Well on the one hand we have to - you know there has been in the speeches from the Throne for the last seven or eight years there haw been talks about hydro development, there have been talks about fishery, there have been talks about forestry - 1 and that somehow because this government or some 1057

July 30, 1979 Tape No. 416 RT-3 Pm:MIER PEQI:FORD: Newfoundlanders ccntinue to repeat those thinqs which are nata,ral to th.- that there is saaathinq wrcnq with .lt. I jut do not UDderstanc:l it: on the other hand, uy to tvn azaund and say that we have to tell it like it is. Well, Mr.

Chai%IUil, I for my part and from the Speech f:r:cm the Th%ane and fraa tb.inqs that - have said since May or 1fhenever this qovernment took office and qot swozn in as a qovezmnent, and no1f since the Provincial election, have tried to be candidly frank with the people of Newfoundland as it rel.tes to our resource developllleftt potential. ADd if the Leader of the ~sition (Mr.

Jamieson) is qoinq to take a - net a study, it is a practical. experiment• of sendinq two or three sil'lllllill operators to No9a Sc:otia and New Brunswick. to look at not what needs to be necessarily done with the basic: foundation of sawmillinq in this province but :rather, 'How do you inc:rease the efficiency of the saVII!ill operation?' We are not studyinq the sawmill operation to see whether in fact - should establish a sawmill here, there or 1C5S

July 30, 1979 Tape 417 IB-1 P!!EMIER PECICFORD: something else, but with the sawmills that have been created over the last six or seven years, how do you make them more efficient, how do you make them more productive, how do you make the quality better, how do you increase their marketing techniques. And that in no way diminishes what has to been done to date. We have increased the lumber production in this Province over the last four or five years a fantastic amount.

This is an additional refinement to even make the sawmilling industry better tomorrow than it is today because today it is better than it was yesterday. And that is the kind of procedure. AN BON. MEMBER: Is it really. PREMIER PECICFORD: Oh yes it is really a lot better. And I suggest to the hen. member that if he has time I can take him to a number of sawmill operations in this Province. we are doing more now in the saw.milling industry in the last two or three years that was ever done before. And as the Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr.

Morqan) can brag, that we are up around 40 million or 45 million, 46 million board feet a year which is a fantastic thing. I remember in 1972 we were down around twenty or twenty-five board feet if we were that, 25 million board feet and now we are up to 46 million. Now we have got to do more in quality so we have got to become more refined in our approach. We have fundamentally solved the problem of establishing sawmills, of getting proper licensing procedure. But I mean the whole issue here is not _?nly that, Mr.

Chail:llliln, but the fact that the future of Newfoundland and I hope somebody rings it out a century from now - is the fishery and will continue to be the fishery.

The question then after saying that is how do you develop the fishery in this Province f It is the how, it is the methodology to see that our input and our concerns are completely reflectecin any national policy for fisheries on the East Coast of North America, are truly incorporated into what comes out on the other end so that the quotas and the licensing system and all of that - and I ~ake no apologies at all for saying or for this administration saying that the fishery must continue to be the basic foundation of our 1059

July 30, 1979 Tape U7 IB-2 ?REM!ER PEC!CFORD: economic :otrategies not only into the 1980's but into the next century because it is. a renewable resource, it is natura~. it is the reason why we were founded in the beginning. And I take great pride as a Newfoundlander - MR. JAMIESON: (Inaudib~e) . PREMIER ?EC!':FORD: I am speaking now, M:r. Chaixman, and the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jamieson) wil~ have his opportunity to respond. So that therefore I take great pride in tl'l.a.t as a Newfoundlander.

And you know, to say sudden~y that a number of speeches a few years ago or now are still hollowing out the whole question of the fishery. That is important and that must continue to be our foundation and our clearest focus and the other things are on the periphery of it. But let us not forget ~~t we also in talking about sawmill.ing - it is not just fishery and hydro development, important as they are, but there is and must always be a number of other areas like the forestry, like the mining, like rural development and areas where you can get involved in agriculture that are important ~nd the tourist dollar.

And we have signed or are in the process of signing additional agreements on that. But, you know, the question as to repeating over and over again the whole idea of fisheries and hydro development because these are- we~l,first of a~l the fishery is the foundation on which we must build other things and hydro power is a lever which we must use in the same way as we can use transportation as a lever for proper economic deve~opment. For the fishery, we need three phase power for fish p~ts around the Province. 'Give me three phase power'st.

Barbe says. 'Give me three phase power'Arnold's Cove says. 'Give me three phase power' says Conche and so on. And so power is a direct level through which economic development can be pursued into the future and therefore must always be for now, for yesterday and for tomorrow one of the key elements in any economic strategy, not exclusively but one of them as is transportation. And forestry as a renewable resource must continue to be that. 1060

July 30, 1979 Tape 417 IB-3 PREMIER E'ECXFORD: so, you know, I do not fully understand the cODEents of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jamieson) when he talks about c