LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Of MA NITOBA Wednesday, 22 May, 1985. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINISTERI AL STATEMENTS .AND TA BLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Business Development. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, it's my privilege to table the 1984 Annual Report of the Manitoba Data Services. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Min ister for the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is my privilege to table the Annual Report for 1984 of the Manitoba Environmental Council. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of High ways. HON. J. ?LOHMAN: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to table information concerning proposed change s in Manitoba's trucking regul ations and a copy of a Memorandum of Understanding respecting a Federal­ Provincial Territorial Agreement on the Economic and Administrative Regulation of Truck Transport that was signed earlier this year. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction Of Bills ... INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR.

SPEAKER: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable memb ers to the gallery, where we have 30 students of Grade 5 standing from the Dearwood School. They are under the direction of Mr. Nerbas and the school is in the constituency of the Honourable First Minister. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Vicon - cost to taxpayers MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, just a matter of clarification. I was going to direct it to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology, but I direct it to the Premier, Mr.

Speaker. Yesterd ay, his Minis ter of Indus t ry, Trade and Technology committed the Manitoba taxpayers to an obligation of $1 million to a European multinational firm on the basis that they will provide employment at the end of the decade for some 130 people. My question to the Minister was surely that the people of Manitoba had a right, and we in this Chamber had a right, to see that agreement. For the information of the Premier, the Minister answered, "So if there is any other information that the member requires, I'd be pleased to provide him with that." Well, it's not myself . MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. H.

ENNS: . . . that is asking that question. I think it's the House and .the people of Manitoba who are asking that question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'll take that as notice for the Minister, but I would point out that the agreement is not $1 million for 134 jobs, but rather $1 million for overall, direct and indirect, 500 jobs, which is a fairly significant difference from what the memb er is indicating.

The member recalls that just a few weeks ago they were debating that we should drop on the table $8 million without any guarantee of long-term employment, just 200 jobs for one year in the sugar beet industry. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Vicon - tabling of agreement MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the First Minister. Will the agreement with Vicon Canada be tabled in this House? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister accepted that question; he took it as notice yesterday and the Minister will be responding. CCIL Closure - Losses to taxpayers re loans and loan guarantees MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, I direct this qu estion to the Minister of Co-operative Development. In light of the sale or the announcement that Vicon will be locating in the province, I wonder if he could now inform us as to the status of the loan and loan 21n

Wednesday, 22 May, 1985 gu arantees that the province, over the last eight to nine years, have put out towards CCIL . MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Co­ operative Development. HON. J. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm certain that the members opposite share with us the approval and the enthusiasm with which we enter into this agreement in that it will protect those farmers who have already pur cha sed Co-op Impl em ents equi pm ent by ensuring that a par ts network is maintained.

It will create jobs in this province; it will boost the economy of this province; it will provide for a stabilization of the farm implement economy and industry in this province. It will do all of those things and, beyond that, in respect to his specific question, it puts us in a better position in respect to the loans and loan guarantees that we had and still have with Co-op Implements.

Had Co-op Implements not been able to enter into the sale of assets and had we not been able to continue the operation, and had they not been able to continue their network, they would have been defunct, and in that case, the loans and loans guarantees would have been worth nothing. What we have done is give them an opportunity to continue the network, give them an opportunity to grow and prosper by being able to narrow their efforts, and by doing so, I believe that we have solidified our interests in respect to loans and loan gu arantees in that operation.

So for all of those reasons, I know that the members opposite share that enthusiasm and approve of the agreement. - (Interjection) - Well, perhaps they don't but if they don't, then their dis app roval of that agreement flies in the face of reason and what is good for this province. MR. R. BANMAN: I wonder if the Minister could tell us what the exposure on loan and loan guarantees is with regard to the Province of Manitob a in their involvement with CCIL. HON. J.

COWAN: Yes, I think I will be able, by going through my notes, to provide that information to the member in detail in a moment; but he must realize that it's not just the government's involvement in Manitoba. It's the other Prairie Provinces who shared our faith and the faith that was exhibited by members opposite when they were in gove rnment, in Co-operativ e Implements, shared our optimism that they would be able to function and prosper.

The Federal Government was involved and, in fact, co-operators around the province were involved; so we're all pleased that the Vicon arrangement has been struck and the agreement has been struck, so that Co­ op Implements has the ability to respond and rebound from some difficult times. But as for the actual amounts, I'll have to total those figu res up and we'll be able to provide them to the member in a moment. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, since I gave the Minister notice of the question yesterday as a courtesy to the Minister, I wonder if he could -as soon as he's had the chance to add those figur es up - No. 1, tell us exactly what the outstanding loans and loan guarantees are; and No. 2, what the chances of recovery are to the people of Manitoba with the loans that they have outstanding right now. HON. J. COWAN: Well, I can tell him right away -and I do thank him for having indicated yesterday that he would be asking a series of questions, although not giving notice of the specific questions to me.

I can indicate to him that the loan and loan guarantees are more solid now than they were a few months ago when members opposite were suggesting that Vicon was going to locate in Saskatchewan. They are more solid now than they were several months ago when there weren't discussions ongoing with Vicon, and Co­ op Implements was facing a very difficult decision about closing down entirely.

We hope and we have confidence -it goes beyond ho pe; it goes beyond hope to confidence -that Co-op Implements will be able to recover and over a period of time will be able to repay the loans and will not require the loan gu arantees that are provided to them now by the different provinces and the Federal Government. But we are not going to use the loans and the loan gu arantees and the fact that they owe us that money as a penalty to them. We're not going to impose upon them a strict repayment

schedule so that they can't recover, so that they can't rebound, so that they can't come back into a productive situation. We have said to them very clearly, we expect that that money will be paid back over a period of time, as you are able to pay it back to us. But to foreclose on them, which is what has been suggested might be appropriate in the past by some memb ers opposite, would be ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. An answer to a question should not be a speech. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, a very simple question.

Yesterday the government announced they were giving a private company $1 million to take over some of the assets of CCIL. I asked the Minister last night and gave him notice about the questions I was to ask. All I'm asking the Minister is, what is the provincial exposure right now to Co-op Implements Ltd.? That's all I asked. I didn't ask him to foreclose. All I want to know is the figures, because we're starting to talk millions of dollars of taxpayers' money is being involved and we want to know exactly which direction this government is taking us. HON. J.

COWAN: The figures -I've given them to the memb er opposite previously in the question period, but I'll repeat them for him. The total Manitoba exposure right now equals $5.775 million, in the form of a $2.8 milli.on guar antee; and a $2.975 million loan. These contributions are secured by a full charge on all the assets. I am telling you now that the recent agreement which enables Co-op Implements to continue, has made those assets more secure than they were a month ago or two months ago or even a year ago, because we believe 2178

Wednesday, 22 May, 1985 the restructuring that has taken place is not only to the benefit of all the farmers in the province who own Co-op Implements equipment, who would like to own similar equipment, but it is also to the benefit of the province as a whole, in that it enables them to continue operation and hopefully be able to pay back the loans. For the information of the member opposite, the Federal Go vernment in 19 78, when they were government, had a recoverable contribution of $8 million.

The Province of Manitoba loan guarantee -this was in 1978 -at that time, was $2.8 million; the Province of Saskatchewan loan guar antee was $2.625 million; the Province of Alberta loan guarantee was $1 .575 million, for a total of $23.75 million. In 19 82, the agreement called for a loan guarantee of $5.5 mill ion from the Federal Go vernment; a Government of Manitoba loan of $2.975 million; a Government of Saskatchewan loan of $2.45 million; a Government of Alberta loan of $1.5 75 million, for a total of $30.439 million.

But what must also be said is since the time that those loans and loan guarantees were originally struck, the total payroll of Co-op Implements for the number of years has resulted in about $65.815 millions of dollars of payback to the Province of Manitoba through their recoveries through taxes and spinoffs. So in fact we have recovered the money that was originally put in.

As well, we have managed to allow, encourage and support for the continued operation of Cl which I believe is the most important factor of this entire discussion, not how much they owe us, but can we stabil ize the farm implement industry in this province and provide for jobs, jobs, jobs for Manitobans -and we're doing that with this agreement and we're proud of that. Vicon - employing CCIL employees MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Roblin­ Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . The Ministerial Statement was given to the House yesterday.

The Minister who made the statement, the Minister of Technology, said that Vicon will employ 130 Manitobans directly by 19 89. In order to protect the co-operatives and workers in our constituencies, how many CCIL employees will be employed in this year'85? How many in '86? How many in '87? How many in '88? And how many in '89 will be employed by Vicon? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mi nister of Co­ operative Development. HON. J.

COWAN: I can tell the Member for Roblin­ Rus sell that the sale of Co-op Implements assets for their plant to Vicon has enabled them to continue the operation of their depot system not only in this province, but our sister province, and that in fact will continue to provide the jobs for those people working those depots. As well, it will provide the jobs that are going to be directly influenced by Vicon's operations in their plant and further to that, will provide the spinoff jobs that are going to be necessary to supply the parts and the equipment to Vicon.

So the overall job retention and job creation of this agreement is probably understated, but we are modest on this side of the House and we want to put forward the facts as we best know them; but I would be willing to bet that over a period of time, because Co-op Implements is able to rationalize its people network, that we will see, after a slight drop in the numbers because of rationalization, an increase over a period of time in that depot network which will serve not only the farmers in providing them access to the equipment they need, but also to the local economies where those depots are located. MR. W.

McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, am I to understand from the Minister's statement that the people that own and operate Co-op equipment in this province have no protection whatsoever after the year 19 89, that they'll be able to get parts or replacement for the equipment that they already have on their property? HON. J. COWAN: If one is going to make projections and undertake a prognosis, then one would expect them to come up with the most negative prognosis possible.

The fact is that what this agreement does is allow for the opportunity for those networks to exist after that period of time and allows for a continuation of similar type equipment by Vicon over a period of time and if we didn't have this agreement which they seem opposed to -I'm surpris ed and shocked by that - but if we didn't have this agreement, what we would have, in effect, is the demise of Cl and the farmers wouldn't be able to get parts and equipment for their materials and their equipment next year or the year after.

So, this is an agreement of optimism and confidence that we have in that industry in those specific components of that industry and in the farming implement industry in the province as a whole. I can answer the member's question in respect to how many employees will be required by Vicon or by Cl in respect to their depots and the answer is 49. Vicon - protection of shareholders MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin­ Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, this is a sham to the co-operators in this province, an absolute sham. You talk about an open government.

The government's prepared to talk about all the problems. He's reading from the document and yet he won't table it in the House. Can I ask the Honourable Minister of Co-operative Devel opment, how are the sha rehold ers in CCIL protected under this agreement? HON. J.

COWAN: Let me tell you about what is a sham in the co-operative movement in this province, because the co-operative movement in this province is an increasingly strong third force in our economy and will become even more so because of the policies of this government and the extra efforts that we are willing to go to to protect the different co-operatives and to promote the movement throughout the Province of Manitoba. 2179

Wednesday, 22 May, 1985 The member opposite is aware because he was at my introductory remarks in the Estimates when I told him quite clearly that the co-operative sector in the Province of Manitoba has had the best year ever in the previous year. There were more new co-operatives incorporated in 19 85 than there were in any year since records were kept by the Central Registry. That's how the co-operative movement in Manitoba is flourishing. Manitoba's housing co-operatives had the best per capita record on housing starts of any co-op housing MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. J. COWAN: ... in any of the 10 . MR.

SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBER S: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBER S: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. If the Honourable Member for La Verendrye wishes to shout when he's called to order, he should do so outside of the Cham ber. Vicon - parts service provision MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question for the Minister of Co-op Development.

Does the agreement that his government has just recently signed with Vicon, include a provision to provide for a parts service for all the existing line of equipment that Cl has been offering for sale to its farm customers over the past number of years? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Mi nister of Co­ operative Development. HON. J.

COWAN: It is my understanding that the agreement between Cl and Vicon calls for Cl depots being provided with their existing product line in Cl colours; that Vicon would be responsible for continued R and D in Western Canada; that Vicon's production facility for Cl related products would still be operating so that those parts will be available for a period of time. I can't indicate, and perhaps the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology would be able to indicate when he's in the House as to exactly what that period of time is. But let's look at what would happen if this agreement wasn't in place.

There would be no Cl; there would be no Vicon; there would be no parts; there would be no continuation of the depot system; there would be no continuation . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. J. COWAN: . . . of the product line and the colours, and, in fact, we would have a situation where the farm implement industry in this province would be destabilized . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. J. COWAN: ... and that's not what we want and that's not what we're having . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. J. COWAN: ... and that's why we have that agreement in front of us. MR.

SPEAKER: Or der please. I will remind the Honourable Minister again that an answer to a question should not be a speech. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I will pass further questions to the Minister, since he wants to make speeches, rather than answer direct questions. Clinic, private - Inter-City Gas Building MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. The clinic that is to open in the Inter-City Gas Building, the announcement was made yesterday.

Are the operations of that clinic affected in any way by the provisions of Bill No. 2 that we're currently debating in the House? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I have no information of that clinic at all except what I read in the newspaper, and it would appear that that clinic will be performing services that are not insured. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, then is the Minister of Health indicating that the provisions of Bill 2 in no way affect the operation of this clinic? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, I said I had no information other than what I'd seen in the paper and that it would appear that most of the services that would be rendered would be those that are not insured. I'm checking with the staff and also with the MM A on that and I should have more information at a later date. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary. Would the Minister foresee a problem if the clinic were to provide insured services and bill the customer directly for those services performed in the clinic? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I've never worried about that 2180

Wednesday, 22 May, 1985 MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. I believe the question is hypothetical. Would the honourable member wish to rephrase his question? Broadlands - road conditions MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Memb er for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of High ways. I asked a question the other day that he, I believe, took as notice and the question period ended before I got a chance to follow it up. It was in connection with the road known as the Broadlands Road, off PR 304.

I wonder if he has had an opportunity now to look at the petition that was delivered to his office, and what he intends to do about the condition of the road. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Hi ghways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, as the member may know from the Hig hways Program that was tabled in the Legislature, acquisition of pro perty ha d commenced last year along a certain section, the first

section of the Broadlands Road. That is continuing this year so that we will have all of that completed. The acquisition wasn't completed the previous year, so we could not begin upgrading this year. However, we intend to go forward with that upgrading for the next construction season. In the meantime, I've asked the department to make special efforts with regard to heavy maintenance to ensure that that road is kept in a safe condition until it can be upgraded. MR. D.

BLAKE: I take it from the Minister's remarks that this will be included in the construction program to be undertaken next year, not in the planning and design stage. It'll be in the construction program for next year? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker, the planning and design stage is completed. The second stage is the acquisition of right-of-way so that the road can be upgraded and then the next stage is the construction and that's what I'm talking about for next year. Manfor - severance pay for Mr. Paul Desmarais MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question to the Mi nister responsible for Manfor. Mr. Paul Desmarais, former Corporate Secretary of Manfor, was relieved of his duties last year. My question to the Minister, is Mr. Desmarais still on the payroll and what severance pay arrangements are being provided to Mr. Desmarais? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Business Development. HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Desmarais did leave the employ of Manfor, I believe it was November 2181 of last year or Octo ber. The mem ber asked for the specifics of the severance pay arrangements.

I will bring back details of that for the member's information. MR. D. GOURLAY: A further supplem entary question to the Minister. I wonder if there is a gag clause attached to the severance pay arrangements provided to Mr. Desmarais. HON. J. STORIE: I do not believe there was a gag clause. I believe there was an understanding, Mr. Speaker, that the terms and conditions would be for the information of the two parties concerned.

That is not something that is unusual between parties where there's a parting of the ways, and the terms and conditions that were part of the severance agreement were agreed to by both parties. I don't think anything more needs to be said. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a further supplem entary question to the Minister and ask if the Minister can confirm that Mr. Desmarais is still on the payroll of Manfor? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, I will take as notice whether the terms of the severance agreement have ended. I have already indicated that I would do so. Manfor - consultant's report MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: A further supplem entary qu estion to the same Minister. Has the government received a consultant's report on the recommendations of the operation of Manfor? Has the government received that report? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have received a copy of the consulta nt's repor t , a management consultant's report that was conducted over several months. I have reviewed much of that with the chairman of the board. The contents of that report are not secret.

In fact, I believe they were posted on the bulletin boards of the unions that represent employees of Manfor. It was a very thorough report, I think, informative certainly, for emp loyees of Manfor and confirmed many of the concerns that have been expressed by all levels of management and employees at Manfor. Mr .

Speaker, we intend to follo w some of the recommendations in that report because, while we can do much to improve the performance of Manfor by retrofitting, by some of the other measures that have been taken, I think there's acknowledgement by all in Ma nfor -and I think acknowledgement by the community - (Interjection) - Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is asking whether I have the report. I indicate, not only do I have the report, but I have read it and I think it is extremely good information. It will be extremely valuable to Manfor. MR. D.

GOURLAY: I would ask the Minister simply, will he table a copy of the consultant's report?

Wednesday, 22 May, 1985 HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, I know that the member has access to the report. I have indicated already that the report has been made available to representatives of the CPU and the !WA. If the member would like to review the report with me, I'd be more than happy to meet with him and review all aspects of it. legislative lnternship Program MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Government Ho use Leader concerning the Legislative lnternship Program for university students.

Could the Minister indicate whether students will be undertak ing research for the gov ernment and Progressive Conservative caucuses?. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I believe the question is on a matter which is not within the competence of the government. It is a legislative matter. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I don't want all questions ruled out on that account. MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speak er, ther e has been a committee of the Legislature which has met with the university. Surely some Minister is responsible and can provide some information on that account. MR.

SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Honourable mem bers' questions will not be ruled out of order if they are properly about matters having to do with the adminis trativ e com petence of the government. The sub ject matter of the mem ber's questions dealt with legislative matters. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader on a point of order. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order, Sir, with regard to your ruling, I think it might be of assistance to the honourable member to advise him that in accordance with the rules established for the Estimates of the Legislative Assembly Management Commission, the Speaker will designate a member of the Treasury Bench to represent, during the presentation of th ose Estima tes and qu estions regard ing the Legislative Assembly Management Commission and all of its activities can be asked during the consideration of those Estimates here in the Chamber; and at that point, under the Speaker's designation, there is then a Minister directly responsible to account for the activities of the commission.

African countries - funding to MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Premier. While he was at the Western Premiers' Conference 10 days ago, I asked the Deputy Premier if she could advise the House as to what, if any, assistance the government, on behalf of the people of Manitoba were providing to Ethiopia and the starving people and children of that country and other African countries. She took the question as notice that day and again last Wednesday. I wonder if the Premier could provide that information to the House. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: To the Honourable Member for St. Norbert, because the Deputy Premier did advise me of the qu es tion, and I will attempt to have tha t information for him tomorrow morning.

It involves the monies that are provided through the matching grant system, the MACI, and also whatever monies would be surrendered as a result of the exemption in regard to sales tax, in regard to the record that is presently being sold which promo tes assistance to the famine victims in Ethiopia; but I regret that I don't have the information for the honourable member now and will ensure I have that tomorrow morning for him. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the Premier, when he's reviewing this matter, to consider whether or not he would have the government undertake to match funds raised by many individuals and community groups and organizations who are attempting to provide assistance on their own. I refer specifically to a walk that is being organized, I believe, for the end of next week called The Manitoba Walk for Hungry Children in Africa by a number of schools and organizations in the province.

I simply ask him whether he would consider providing or encouraging these community groups to raise funds for this worthy cause by matching funds from the province. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Spe aker, I appreciate the Honourable Member for St. Norbert's question and it's certainly one that would consider, but I just want to present the other side of the coin to the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. We do provide the matching funds to MCIC, which engages itself insofar as the funding of many needed programs relating to the Third and Fourth World throughout the world. Mr.

Speaker, that has been the channel that has been used in the province up to this point. I have some reservation, Mr.

Speaker, if we respond to particular given situations that may be indeed very, very urgent, very, very necessary, but because they have high visibility going around the normal process - I know that it's tempting sometimes for that to be undertaken - but there is a process through the MG IC which we trust as being a group that is able to carefully weigh the needs and the various programs by which government funds and private funds can be utilized in order to help the needy in various parts of the world. It would be my inclination, I must indicate to the Honourable Member for St.

Norbert, to continue to work through that fund. Now, whether that fund ought to be increased beyond that which is in this year's allocation, I think that is another question that is worthy of discussion during my Estimates when it is discussed. 2182

Wednesday, 22 May, 1985 Teachers' Pension Act - proposed tabling of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. l address my question to the Minister of Education. I have had many calls with respect to particulars associated with the agreement reached between the government and officials of the Manitoba Teachers Society with respect to the pension reform. As this Minister has superseded the powers of this Legislature and reached that agreement outside of the House, I would ask her when it is her intention to table that particular bill? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As quickly as possible; hopefu lly within a few days. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm wondering ii the Minister could tell whether this bill, because we have to know pretty soon or teachers in this province have to know fairly soon as their May 31 st deadline is coming up; will teachers be allowed to take advantage of the new pension, retire on full pension from one division and then enter into contract under a new full wage within a new division? Will they be allowed to do this under the new bill? HON. M.

HEMPHILL: I'm not sure that I'm abso lutely clear on the question that was being asked. Either he could repeat it or I'll take it as notice to make sure I'm giving him a full answer. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, I'll repeat the question. Will an individual, will a teacher be able to retire on full pension from one division and then enter into a contract at full wage in another division? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, I can't imagine that happening under any circumstances. First of all, the people that are retiring are taking advantage of the removal of the penalty because they want to retire.

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. M. HEMPHILL: We also expect that school divisions are going to be taking advantage of the opportunity to hire the new young graduates that are in the market that we want to get into the system so that we have a better balance between experienced teachers and our new enthusiastic teachers. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Speaker, the Minister is a little vague. Can it happen? Could it occur that this situation might happen? MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

I believe that detailed questions having to do with a bill are better dealt with when a bill comes before the House for second reading. 2183 The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. That's our particular problem. We have teachers today that are calling us wanting to know the answer to that qu estion before the May 31s t deadline. I plead with the Minister to table the bill and whether or not, in fact, that can occur? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. That is not a point of order. HON. M. HEMPHILL: I would like to answer that question if I may, Mr. Speaker. HON. M.

HEMPHILL: There was a question there and it's a legitimate question. I've answered it very clearly in a direct letter that went out to all the interested parties and to all teachers. In that letter, I said to every individual who would be affected, that it would apply this year, that it is our intention that this apply this year and that they be able to take this opportunity this year. My message has been very clear and it's gone to everybody. Cottage owners - free provincial passes MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Natural Resources.

Cottage owners in provincial parks have received their statements for the coming year, and half of them have received a free provincial pass and the other half have not. Can the Minister indicate why half of the cottage owners have received a provincial pass and half have not? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. S. USKIW: Well, I don't know whether the Mem ber for Minnedosa has the answer or not, Mr. Speaker, but I'll have to take that as notice. Brandon University - Shanghai University contract MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. I had intended to answer previously when I was on my feet a question I took as notice from the Member for Turtle Mountain some time ago. He was asking about an agreement between Brandon University and Shanghai in terms of training of teachers. At the time, I had not heard about any such agreement. It seems I'm not the only one, Mr. Speaker, that hasn't heard about any such agreement since the president of the university and the chairman of the board also had no knowledge and had not heard about this agreement that was carried over the Brandon radio, I think, saying there was a $1.7 million contract.

To date there is no letter of intent, there is no agreement, and in fact there is not really what you

Wednesday, 22 May, "1985 would call serious negotiations. To date all we have had is discussions between two deans. I suppose you might call that enthusiastic a little prematurely, but there's no formal contract agreement or negotiations. Beaver Dams - removal policy MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Yes, I direct this qu estion to the Minister of Natural Resources and ask the Minister, the beaver darns are causing flooding in the Benito area so that farmers cannot seed their fields.

The Minister had indicated there'd be no change in beaver control policy, however there has been a change. I wonder if the Minister could indicate that this problem has now been rectified. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure if it's rectified to date, but I'm hopeful that something is being carried out at the moment to rectify the situation. Forest fire - Porcupine Mountains MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Yes, a further question to the same Minister.

I wonder if the Minister can give us an update on the forest fire in the Porcupine Mountains today. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. S. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I think I can do that perhaps tom orrow, but I don't have all the information at the moment. MR. D. GOURLAY: Yes, a question to the Minister responsible for the water bom ber. Is the water bomber able to land at the Swan River Airport at the present time? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please, order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired.

ORDERS OF THE DAY ADJOURNED DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Would you please call Bill No. 2? llll R. SPEAKER: On the pr oposed mo tion of the Ho nourable Min ister of He alt h, Bill No. 2 - the Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Stand, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Stand. The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Agriculture , that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carri ed and the Ho use resolved itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Suppl y to be gr anted to Her Majesty with th e Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture, and the Honourable Memb er for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES Of SUPPLY SUPPLY - CULTURE, HERITAGE AND RECREATION MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee, please come to order.

We are now considering Item No. 3.(a)( 1) and 3.(a)

(2) Communication Services, Executive Administration: Salaries; 3.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures. Mr. Minister. HON. E. KOSTYRA: The Memb er for Sturgeon Creek inquired about where we might deal with the tederal­ provincial agreement, the ERDA sub-agreement on Communications and Cultural Enterprises. The actual location for that would be under the Jobs Fund because it's funded through there; however if he wanted to ask some questions about it now, I do have one of the staff that's related to that area here, that we can respond to any questions if he wanted to raise them at this time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: No, if it comes under the Jobs Fund, we can have discussion on it then. Well, let me ask the Minister one question then. There was an announcement made I believe on Thursday or Friday regarding Component 3 of the fund. The specific qu estion I would ask regarding tha t announcement, is that

section of the agreement going to give financial support to companies desiring to get in the business, which would create an opposition or create a bad situation for the companies that are presently operating in the business, especially from the audio point of view? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I just want to clarify the question. Was it in regard to the announcement that was made last Thursday in respect to the film program, or were 2"184

Wednesday, 22 May, 1985 you asking questions about Components 2 and 3 of this Sector B? MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well, I believe the announcement was made under Components 2 or 3 of the advisory comm ittee. That is the advisory committee that would give advice, if I read the agreement right, on Component 3. The Advisory Committee No. 2 that is having hearings, etc., and will be advising on Component No. 3. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Tha t's correct. The specific announcements that were made about programs for film support were under Component 6. Those were the ones that were made last Thu rsday.

In terms of the Comp onent 2, th at commit tee has been holding hearings over the past while and is expecting to table a report within a year, with an interim report by June, and then they will be making recommendations with respect to Components 3 and 4. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: In reading the agreement in says, "The objective of this Component is to allow Manitoba industry to benefit from increased film, video and audio production opportunities." Now I would ask, because I have been asked, if this is going to be supplying funds to companies who are desiring to get into this field, which would create opposition, and I'm not opposed to opposition, but will it be harmful to the Manitoba industry at the present time?

The word "increased" means that you want to increase the present busi ness for the companies that are presently operating, but is it going to be monies going to be used to put other people into business? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The committee has not made a report in terms of what programs will be in place. The committee is made up of some representatives of the industry as it exists in Manitoba. It may be under some components of the program that it may encourage additional businesses to be involved in film making in the province. That may only be at one level, say in the area of production houses or producers of film.

There are other areas that one would have to be very sensitive to in terms of building any increased capacity, because the capacity exists in areas of physical assets in terms of recording studios, or those kind of facilities could probably not stand any significant increase in capacity without doing harm to the industry. So I think one would have to be sensitive to that. The priorities that are outlined in the strategy is for the im provement of the infrastructure, related to production and distribution and consumption, in order to meet the needs of Manitoba's communications and cultural enterprise sector.

The other priority is to deal with the strengthening of the productivity of the human managerial and technical resources. So the intention is to enhance what we already have, though it may mean some expansion in terms, but I think we 'll ha ve to be sensitiv e to wh atever recommendations flow from the committee.

But I would expect that the committee is going to take into account the advice that's being provided to it from the Manitoba industry, or people who are involved in the industry in Manitoba; and ho pefully th ey will govern their recommendations that are made to both the Federal and Provincial Governments under the terms of the agreement to be sensitive to the needs of the industry in Manitoba without causing a major disruption, because it is a very sensitive and fledgling industry. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, then I'd like to refer to

Section 6, Cultural Enterprises Development, which the $6 million is completely provincial shared. I'm aware of how these agreements work. There is a total of $21 million and it's $13 million to Federal and $8 million by the Provincial Government, but as in Component No. 1, it's all federal money and in Component No. 6, it's all provincial money, so it balances out, but the agreement still works under the jurisdiction of the Federal and Provincial Government.

But on No. 6, the Manitoba Cultural Industries are entering into a transitional stage of development." "Selective support mechanisms are necessary at various stages in development of cultural products from the intitial concept through the writing and composing stage, to completion of product production as a film, video, book, periodical, radio item or record. In order for Cul tu ral Enterprises to take advantage of the opportunities of these stages, increased capitalization" etc. Can the Minister just outline what is intended with this section?

Does it mean that monies will be suppl ied to cultural and heritage organizations to develop films on their own for production and showing -well I might say, showing where? What is the basic thrust behind this particular section? HON. E.

KOSTVFIA: The basic thrust is to help the various components of the cultural industries to develop and to enhance their ability to promote and to develop cultural products in the Province of Manitoba, with an industry view, so that they can be encouraged and developed as functioning and successful businesses in the Province of Manitoba, employing Manitobans and creating job opportunities.

The five cultural industry strategy objectives that have been identified in terms of the overall: One is to ensure that cultural industries are developed as appropriate vehicles for efficient production and distribution of Manitoba cultural products; secondly, to encourage the develop ment of a market for Manitoba cultur al periodicals by first maximizing access to the local and domestic marketplace; third ly, to foster a cultural infrastructure environment which encourages the production of the Manitoba cultural product and which represents and reflects the cultural diversity of the people of Manitoba; fourthly, to focus on independent producers of Manitoba cultural products; and finally, to utilize a comprehensive range of public initiatives, focusing on both the product and the mark et and recognizing their independent nature.

How that has manifest itself into specific programs is where I can only give specific response in a couple areas that have been implemented, because others are in various stages of discussion and will come to a decision point over the five years of the agreement, but one was the book in Cultural Periodicals Purchase Program that we discussed yesterday in terms of allowing Manitoba libraries, both school and public, to purchase Manitoba books and periodicals which was 2185

Wednesday, 22 May, 1985 of significant benefits to the publishers, in terms of getting their products into public usage in Manitoba in a way that hadn't been done before, which hopefully will develop increased awareness and interest in those products. In terms of the film, there has been announcement of the film development program which provides for script and pr oject development, pr oject sup port development, and a marketing component. The recording industry is one that is presently under study.

We're going to have to look at what possibilities there are for providing some assistance for enhancing the recording industry in the province, and also look at some of the other areas. So those are the specific areas that are in place and other programs are possible. There was two policy papers prepared for the department on both of those areas that provided a framework for us to look at possible initiatives in consultation with the industry. I don't know if the member's seen them, but if he's interested I can provide him with copies of both of those policy papers.

There's an executive sum mary or executive overview version and then there's a more detailed 100-page research document; but if he is interested in that detail, I could provide it to him. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Then it's basically funding for companies that will produce cultural and heritage program, whether it be fi lm, video or books. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Some of it is funding, not directly, but indirectly through someone else purchasing the products. Others may be assistance in terms of market development.

There's a possibility of looking at helping develop management skills, in terms of providing consulting services so that -it's always been said that some of the people in the culture industry don't have enough managerial or business skills to provide some assistance in tha t regard. There's a range of possi bili ties.

The least desirable is direct funding because the idea behind this program, and part of the reason that it's a term program is to help take that industry to a further level so that once this program is concluded, which we will in five years unless it's renegotiated, they will be at another level that they will be able to continue on with the support programs that are available through Canada Council and through Manitoba Council; but hopefully this will take them to a dif ferent level of skill develop ment or mar ket development or product development so that they can continue on.

So the idea behind our programs is not to build in any further ongoing subsidy, other than what exists through the Arts Council at the present time. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The Component 5 -this proposal responds to the oppor tunit ies respect ing the communications needs of ethnological groups dispersed throughout the country. It is proposed that a National News Bureau be established in Manitoba to gather and disse minate news of inter est to ethnologic al communities. It would operate like a media wire service and of course the funding would be to support the acquisition of the technology to be able to do this.

When it is structured and set up with this funding which is $250,000, will it then become a structure that will have to be supported by government or will it support itself? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Just to correct the member, there's $500,000 over the five years, cost-shared 50-50. - (Interjection) - The idea would be that it would be a self-sustaining operation.

There is one proposal that's under consideration that has been subm itted to the joint committee to establish a feasibil ity study to look at the development of a national wire service operation and that's under consideration for a feasibility study stage, feasibility study at this point. There's no intention that there'd be any ongoing support. MR. F. JOHNSTON: On

Section 1, we have the Federal Government on technology application projects. let me say first of all I'm a little confused how Technology Appl ication Programs tied in with Culture and Heritage. Technology Application Projects, does this mean we that we would be looking at communications say in hospitals? In what industries would be designated that this 6 million would be used? HON. E. KOSTYRA: It is related to Communication Technologies. It's open really to any area. One is Videotex Publishing. I think there's one proposal that's under consideration for a local area networking.

The possibility of what the member suggested in terms of the health care field is one that I think has been discussed. Actually, I'm told there is an actual proposal looking at one area of that at the present time. It's not limited to any particular area. Another one might be electronic publishing, the development of an educational course - (Interjection) - teleradiology, which is a medical one. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I would ask the Minister, because I've had it said to me that there is a consideration of some process for meter reading, is there such a thing a thing under consideration? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: I would just ask the Minister if he would consi der meter read ing over and above communications for hospitals and other areas more important? I don't imagine there's been any decision made, but it would seem to me that technology could be very good. I think there are needs other than that particular type. I think the minutes are as indicated there's been no decisions made. HON. E. KOSTVRA: No, ther e are a numb er of proposals that are being reviewed by the Federal Government directly on that.

I'd say you have to recognize that the purpose of this program is for industrial development for economic opportunities and while, obviously, you're going to look at those kind of opportunities that will enhance other aspects of the province, whether it's health care field or other areas, you have to look at what potential industrial and economic benefits of that proposal are and just using the two examples that the member cited, if one has a far greater industrial opportunity for the province, then 218 6

Wednesday, 22 May, 1985 that would have to be reviewed in the context of which one of those proposals or which one of a number of proposals would be supported if, indeed, there has to be a limiting factor because of funding and a long list of proposals being submitted. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, who are the management committee? I know that the federal deputy is involved and the deputy is involved . . . HON. E. KOSTYRA: I can give you all the names. MR. F. JOHNSTON: All right HON. E.

KOSTYRA: For Manitoba, the Deputy Minister of the Department, Joy Cohnstadt; there's one provincial position still open; Jim Eldridge, Deputy Secretary to Cab inet for federal-provincial relat ions, is on the comm ittee, is ex-officio and Kim Sharman, one of Treasury Board staff, is also ex-officio. The co-secretary for Manitoba is Ms. Jimmy Silden who is Director of the Cultural Industries Branch in the Department. On the federal side, the co-Chair is Alan Gourd who is a senior Assistant Deputy Minister . . . MR. F. JOHNSTON: What was that again? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Alan Gourd, G-0-U-R-D, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, DOC; the second member from the Federal Government is Charles McGee, who is Director-General of federal-provincial relations for the Department of Communications; ex-officio are Bob Morand who is the acting . . . in Manitoba through Department of Regional Industrial Expansion and a Ken Hepburn who is Assistant Deputy Minister, Technology and Industry of DOC is also ex-officio. Co-secretary from the federal side is Mr. W. Johnston, Regional Director, DOC in Manitoba. MR. F. JOHNSTON: With a "T" ? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm sorry, there's a change there.

Owen Sweeney has replaced Johnston. MR. F. JOHNSTON: That's a shame. HON. E. KOSTYRA: He's with local staff here. MR. F. JOHNSTON: We've had trouble with Sweeneys up north. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I've got a background document, I'll table it for the mem ber. He may be interested in some more detail on the agreement, some background. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, that's all I have on the ... MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)( 1)- pass; 3.(a)(2)- pass. MR. F. JOHNSTON: No, we were on . . . MR. CHAI RMAN: We are on 3.(a )( 1) Execu tiv e Administration: Salaries; 3.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures -Communications Services. MR. F. JOHNSTON: This department has an Assistant Deputy status? Or director? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, in Executive Administration, there are three positions -one Assistant Deputy Minister and two communications consultants. There's a net decrease in the salaries because of one vacant position that's expected will be recruited at a lower salary than was previous. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)( 1)- pass; 3.(a)(2)- pass. 3.(b )

(1) Queen's Printer -Manitoba Gazette: Salaries; 3.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures. The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I just have one question on the Queen's Printer Gazette, and really the same question about (

c) as well. Other Expenditures remain the same. I think that's good, except that is it because of increase in prices, etc.? Is there going to be any reduction by the fact that it has stayed the same? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm told that the contract price for the printing of the Gazette has come in at the same level as it was previous and there's no expectation that the volume in terms of printing of the Gazette will increase, so we don't see any need to look at any increase in this line. MR. F. JOHNSTON: That's fine. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)( 1)- pass; 3.(b)(2)- pass. 3.(c)( 1) Queen's Printer-Management and Brokerage, Salaries; 3. (c)

(2) Other Expenditures. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Does the number of people in the Queen's Printer remain the same? HON. E. KOSTYRA: In this branch it's the exact same six positions. I think overall the Queen's Printer has got the same amount of positions. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(c)( 1)- pass; 3.(c)(2)- pass. 3.(d)( 1) Queen's Printer -Operating, Salaries; 3.(d)

(2) Other Expenditures; 3.(d)

(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations. . MR. F. JOHNSTON: There's a pretty hefty increase in the operating there. Ha ve they taken over something else? We've got close to $800,000 increase in the operating of the Other Expenditures in the operating section. HON. E. KOSTYRA: The major part of the increases relate to volume increases in terms of what is being purchased by the departments through the Queen's Printer. This includes all of their purchases for stationery, photographic supplies, statutory publ ications, all of the material that departments order thr ough Queen's Printer.

So the majority of the cost increase is because of increased volume of suppl ies and price increases are estimated at 6 percent within that. MR. F. JOHNSTON: What are those supplies? I must admit the Minister went through it last year because 218 7

Wednesday, 22 May, 1985 there were changes made, some changes made last year that was explained to me. But what are those supplies up into the departments? This is the stationery, envelopes, just general office equipment that would have printing on it, is that it? Or pencils? HON. E. KOSTVRA: It's basically all of their normal office supplies, from those that the Queen's Printer prints itself through its production house, or those that are purchased by the Queen's Printer, in bulk, for departments, whether it's copy paper, memo pads, staplers, staples, pencils, all of the basic office supplies. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: And the recoverable is what's charged to the department? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d) ( i) -the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I just have a question on that item. What would be the cause of such a big increase? Is there any one department that is using more material than before? HON. E. KOSTVRA: I guess I should explain. Part of that increase was covered by Special Warrant last year. There was an attempt last year to try to bring about a reduction in the flow of office supplies to about 85 percent. It was found not to be successful in terms of the demands from the departments.

So what happened, at the end of last year there was a Special Warrant of $556,500, which is part of this $797,000 increase. The actual increased volume predicted for this year and price increase is $240,600.00. MRS. G. HAMMOND: And that's a normal increase, is it? HON. E. KOSTVRA: It's normal and it's not one specific department. It's system wide. MR. CH AIRMAN: 3. (d) ( 1) - pass; 3.(d) (2)- pass; 3.(d)(3)- pass. 3.(e)( 1) Advertising Audit Office, Salaries; 3. (e)

(2) Other Expenditures; 3. (e)

(3) Public Sector Advertising; 3.(e)

(4) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations -the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The Advertising Audit Office places the advertising for the government, and it does it for all of the departments in the government? HON. E. KOSTVRA: All departments in government and most of the Crown corporations. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Is the Jobs Fund advertising included in this figure? HON. E. KOSTVRA: Yes. MR. F. JOHNSTON: And the advertising, say, that's on at the present time, for the hydro expansion, etc.? HON. E. KOSTVRA: Yes. MR. F. JOHNSTON: There's an increase here of $600,000.00.

I wonder if the Minister could outline the increases of $600,000.00. HON. E. KOSTVRA: These reflect the demands by each of the departments. This is shown actually in two places in terms of Estimates. It's shown here as a total figure and it's also covered in each of the respective departmental lines. The increases reflect a net increase of $590,000 which was a Sp ecial Warrant last year, so the actual expenditures this year were the same that were spent last year, including what was in the vote and what Cabinet subsequently approved.

So the figure here is the accumulative total of all of the departmental plans for the cost of media placement for advertising. It does not cover the production costs. Those are covered by the departments directly and do not show here. It never has. MR. F. JOHNSTON: This is 19 85. I wonder if the Minister has a figure for this corning year? When I mentioned the hydro advertising, it's just started this year, I believe. HON. E. KOSTVRA: The figure for this year is $2,965,500 for the total. Are you asking specifically what the hydro is? MR. F. JOHNSTON: Yes.

Well, no, now I would ask, does the Minister have a breakdown of the departments, what advertising they're doing? HON. E. KOSTVRA: I have a listing of the major media placement intentions for'85-86. It doesn't come quite to the total, but it covers all the major areas. These are es tima tes from the departments. Alive Safety Corridors is $45,000.00. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Safety Corridors? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Safety Corridors. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Fifty-five? HON. E. KOSTYRA: $45,000.00.

Jobs Fund, relating to such things as Careerstart and Community Assets Program, $400,000; Limestone, $300,000; Workplace Health and Safety, Hazardous Waste Removal, $90,000; Travel Manitoba, $600,000; the general area of legal tenders, Ci vil Service Commis sion adve rtising, $300,000; Agriculture, $200,000; Natural Resources, $1 00,000; Housing, $60,000 -Rent Regulation, that is specifically; and Energy Check Programs, $200 ,OOO .00. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Can I go back to the $300,000 one? You said Civil Service and legal tenders. Is that it? HON. E.

KOSTVRA: Yes, it's legal notices, Child Welfare Act, tenders for high way construction and DGS and then Civil Service postings that are advertised. MR. F. JOHNSTON: On the Limestone advertising, can the Minister tell us how many ads there are on television and how long they'll be running for? 2188

Wednesday, 22 May, 1985 HON. E. KOSTYRA: I can't provide him with detailed answers to that because we don't have them here. That could be derived from the department directly when those Estimates are reviewed. We understand that there is a plan for a further advertising flight within a month. - (I nterjection) - I'm sorry, if I could just conclude. The focus of that is Manitoba business opportunities with respect to the Limestone development. MR. F. JOHNSTON: And there is further advertising within the $300,000 that will be coming with television, with all media, television, radio and newspaper? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Yes, there's no final plan. Those are estimates of the costs and it would probably include the various aspects. MR. f. JOHNSTON: Will that final plan, that comes from the Department of Energy, does it? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, in regard to the government's program of advertising the Jobs Fund, which I think, similar to the Limestone program, is excessive in terms of dipping into the public purse and splashing around a great deal of money, partly for information but largely for the benefit of the Pawley administration and its re-election program, I want to ask a question again about the fact that there is an extensiv e amount of money being spent on an advertising program through the media to promote the Jobs Fund.

But I want to ask the Minister this, at the same time that the government and his department is spending this money, there is a parallel program by the Manitoba New Democratic Party which seems to indicate that it is the Manitoba NOP which is in fact to be given the credit for the Jobs Fund. I refer to the billb oards that are up throughout the city, and I don't have the exact wording here but I can easily get it and the words may not be in the exact position but all the exact logic is present.

They go something like this, that the Manitoba New Democrats, the question is you have a billboard with two bubbles or balloons like cartoon characters and the one side says, "Why are Manitoba New Democrats providing jobs for young people through the Jobs Fund?" or "Why are Manitoba New Democrats using the Jobs Fund to provide jobs for young people?" The answer is something to the effect of, well, you know, they like young people, etc., etc.

The point is this, that here is a political party which is distinct from the government creating the impression that it is the Manitoba NDP which is providing the funding or the programming and it is not. It is the government and the taxpayers of Manitoba that are putting up the dollars and the first thing I want to ask the Minis ter is whether he has any problems with this or whether he finds this acceptable for his political party to advertise at the same time in the same way, the Jobs Fund Program? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm afraid I can't answer that question.

I'm not here to respond to advertising by a 2189 political party. It's not within my responsibility as a Minister. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I'm saying that the Minister is responsible for the Jobs Fund and he has an advertising program which I think is excessive and to a large extent unnecessary, but he has a program and he is conveying information to the people of Manitoba.

I'm simply saying, is he going to allow any political party - it could be the Conservatives who decided that they were going to put up similar billboards for other programs in health or education or anything else, name that program specifically as opposed to in generalities, is the Minister going to simply allow any politi cal party, any group or any individua l or organiza tion, to advertise the Jobs Fund as their program? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Well, let me make it clear that there's no government advertising going to the purposes that the member suggests.

However, if anyone in the community who would like to respond in terms of the significant efforts that have been taken by the Jobs Funds to improve job opportunities here in the province, if any community group, any group that's been part of that process because it's been a total community effort in terms of the pr ivate sector or in terms of municipalities, in terms of the Federal Government, in terms of community organizations, the private sector individual, if any groups out there wish to indicate that they are supportive and feel part of that significant effort, then I don't think that is contradictory in any way to the thrust of the government to enhance job opportunities.

In terms of the information that has been provided to the public under the Jobs Fund advertising and I would just note to the member that we're dealing with the Estimates of the Advertising Audit, not of the Manitoba Jobs Fund. Nevertheless, I would just indicate that au of the advertising campaigns have been dealing with specific programs.

Whether or not it was giving people information with respect to energy loans that were available under the check program of the Jobs Fund wherein more than 10,000 Manitobans took advantage of that program because they were made aware of the opportunities that existed, whether it was people that took advantage of the housing programs, Careerstart, the Manitoba Jobs and Training Program, all of the Jobs Fund advertising has been targeted specifically to specific programs to ensur e that Manitobans are aware and can take advantage of those opportunities to provide job creation opportunities in the province. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for LaVerendrye. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, just a couple of more qu estions. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it on the same subject? MR. R. DOERN: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Does the Minister make a distinction between the Government of Manitoba and the Manitoba New Democratic Party?

Wednesday, 22 May, 1985 HON. E. KOSTYRA: I feel like I'm a teacher in a classroom. The Manitoba Government is distinct from a Manitoba political party, yes. MR. R. DOERN: Does the Manitoba NOP have any funds invested in the Jobs Fund? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I don't believe so. MR. Ft DOERN: Does the Minister subscribe to truth in advertising or does he in all his ads attempt to follow that dictum that ads should be true or convey true information? MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that relevant to the Audit Office? MR. R. DOERN: Well, Mr. Chairman (Interjection) HON. E. KOSTYRA: I believe in truth in everything I do. MR. R.

DOERN: The point that I'm making to the Min ister is this: Is he going to allo w outside organizations to take credit for government programs by specifically naming those programs and specifically implying that they are responsible for them or involved in those programs? Is he going to allow that without objection or will he simply sit idly by while anyone takes claims or makes use of any government program for whatever purpose, or does he have no concern about that whatsoever? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I believe I have responded to that question already.

If any people in Manitoba feel that the Manitoba Jobs Fund is something that they are proud of, and indeed many Manitobans were part of that and certainly part of the success that this province has experienced in terms of economic development, in terms of having one of the lowest unemployment rates, that is simply not something that the government itself can take credit for. It's something that belongs to the broader community. MR. R.

DOER lll: So then the Minister is saying that if the Progressive Party or anybody else puts out a billboard saying that the Jobs Fund is their program, it's their creation and it's because of their efforts that there is such a program, then the Minister wouldn't object to that? HON. E. KOSTYRA: As I indicated, if people feel that program is a success and they feel because of their involvement in it that they want to indicate their support for it, I think that's something that would rest with those individuals. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I did not say support.

I said the credit for instituting the program, conceiving the program and impl ementing the program. The Minister does not object to that? MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that true? The Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Well, I'm telling you it's the New Democratic Party, Manitoba NOP is taking credit for the Jobs Fund Program. If it's okay for one party to do so, then I assume it's okay for any party to do so. HON. E. KOSTYRA: As the member said if there's truth in what they advertise, then I guess that they ought to do that. MR. R. DOERN: And if there isn't truth in it then what? Will the Minister object? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: That's up to the people to decide. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAlll: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a few comments to make with regard to the advertising dollars that are being spent that's been highligh ted throughout this Session and started last Session. I guess one really has to question how far any government of any political stripe will go in using taxpayers' dollars to try and manage the media or manipulate the taxpayers who are eventually going to have to pay the bill. I have to tell the Minister, I view this advertising with mixed emotions.

On the one hand it concerns me and I would rather the government not spend taxpayers' money this way. On the other hand, I am convinced that the more they spend to try and bolster up their image with the public, the more suspicious the public will become and the worse they will do at the polls. I speak with the voice of experience on that I went through that. In 19 80 when I was part of an administration and the polls were coming back -we all do polling now -that it might be a rough ride and people, a lot of them, hadn't made up their minds which direction they were going to go.

What I would refer to as the political handlers, the advertising people, the advertising agencies, the political mandarins that are around, then say you know you guys are doing a really good job but the people just don't understand you. You aren't getting your message out What you have to do is you have to advertise. That's the only way because the press isn't treating you right, you aren't getting the right editorials. People just don't understand you and yet you're such real good guys.

What you do then is then you crank up the machine and, of course, the NOP in this instance have cranked up the machine to a height which I have never seen it done and the people of Manitoba never have. I want to tell the Minister !ha t while he's doing the Conservative Party a favour by spend ing taxpayers' money on advertising as government, he really isn't doing the taxpayer any favour by doing it. I say to the Minister that I went through that. I'm not happy that we spent that kind of money on advertising. I think I learned my lesson.

This government doesn't seem to have learned from the experience that other parties have faced in the last number of years. Look at the Trudeau administration. My goodness, you've never seen so much advertising in all your life on everything. Mr. Chairman, I say it crosses all political boundaries, but the NO P have taken this to an extent, I think that none of us dreamed they would. They have 2190

Wednesday, 22 May, 1985 now put communicators in each department, something which we were just chastised for having two or three in the whole system. They have hired something like 121 people who are now trying to ma nage communications and manage the media, and Lord knows the media can't be managed, as much as we'd want to chastise them for writing something from time to time we don't agree with.

It doesn't matter how many people are in government are there to draft sort of the really smart press releases, like the one presented by the Minister yesterday, which didn't even include how much it was going to cost the province and didn't answer a whole bunch of questions. It just doesn't work. I'm troubled to see this kind of money being spent. We're talking here about figures that don't even include production costs, and I guess we'll have to go through each department and find out what that is, because I sugge st to the Mi nister th at's pretty su bstantial too, what the departments are using themselves.

But things like advertising Limestone and the Jobs Fund, le t's face it, wha t ha s happ ened with the Limestone ads -and let's be frank about it -is that the government knew they were in trouble; they were behind in the polls and what they did, is they came and used taxpayers' money to try and bolster up their image, because we all realize that the economy is something that the people are worried about there. It's No. 1 out there. And what they did is they dovetailed that with polling, the same as the New Democratic Party is doing.

You can't separate the two and that's why it's so terribly difficult when you're spending government money on advertising, to divorce that from a political party. I'll bet you any money right now the NOP, either within the last couple of weeks or will in the next little while, will be assessing -and this is the political arm of the go vernment -will be asse ssing what imp act the Limestone ads are having through polling, because they want to see if that's going to bolster up the image of the government. This is the dilemma that we face.

Here you have a situation developing where we are spending hundreds and thousands and millions of dolla rs on adver tising and it's im age -building advertising. I have no quarrel with the normal advertising budget of travel. If he wants to spend $45,000 on saying the corridors are sup posed to be safer or if we spend money on the ALERT program, fine. But when we'r e talking ab out Jobs Fund and Limestone and things like that, it really is image building and window dres sing, and it's rea lly a waste of taxpayers' money.

Looking at it as a member of the opposition is all too often we think that the people don't catch on. They might not be as aware of what's going on around them as we think we are in this building. But let me tell you, they see through us pretty well. In my 12 years here, instead of having sort of a growing mistrust in the democratic process, I've actually learned to appreciate it more and more, having been through the peaks and the valleys that the constituents have a way of putting you from time to time.

So I say to the Minister, he's in a unique situation -and maybe I shouldn't give him this advice -he could do the taxpayers a service by stopping the advertising of these image-building programs and he'd probably do his party a favour by getting out of that because 2191 the people wouldn't bear that animosity towards him. But every time you look at $1 million being blown on advertising for image building, I think it's wrong.

I think the majority of people realize it's wrong and it's too bad that we, as politicians, sort of fall into that trap and listen to people who indicate to us that the people don't know what you're doing, you're really good guys. It's the people that will decide that and no amount of advertising is going to change that. So I would urge the Minister to talk to his colleagues and do us all a favour and save us the millions of dollars that they're spending on advertising. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I thank the member for his comments and I agree with his comments with respect to image advertising.

The member suggested the kind of advertising that has been taking place is image advertising, and I disagree with him. The advertising with respect to the Jobs Fund has been on specific programs to ensure that Manitobans do get opportunities that are presented through those programs. The same is true of Limestone. We're attempting to increase the Manitoba content in the Limestone project significantly to that, which was the case with previous hydro-electric developments.

In fact, we're trying to double the im pact on the province in terms of spinoff manufacturing and service sector opportunities and that's going to take a great deal of work. It's going to take a great deal of providing information to the public so that both Manitoba businesses and Manitobans, as individuals, can get the benefits of that program.

I think when one reviews what we're doing in terms of dollars, you can look just to the west to a government that's of a different political stripe than this one, the same as the member who just spoke, who have an advertising budget that is in excess of $12 million for a one-year period. I agree with him totally on image advertising. I would think that this is what you would call image advertising when you take a two-page spread and talk about building hospitals, roads, all kinds of things like that, which don't provide any information to people outside of strict propaganda. So I agree with the member. MR. R.

BANMAN: Let nie ask the Minister, about a month ago I was in Selkirk and the Minister in charge of Autopac was opening an extension to a personal care home. There's a huge green job sign in front of the project - it's a personal care home -and the Minister now get this - the Minister was walking around with all the senior citizens there, was walking around a completed building. It was totally completed. He's walking around with a Jobs Fund hard-hat on, talking to the people, to the senior citizens. You know if that isn't image building and that's what's happening with the Jobs Fund. It's strictly image building.

So I say to the Minister that I don't agree with the ad he sh owed us from Saskatchewan and I don't agree with it. I think that monies can be spent in better ways. But all I'm saying is that we're again facing a dilemma in Canada. Every time we think we're in trouble, our advertising people come running to say, you aren't getting your message out, you better do it differently, you got to advertise. The Jobs Fund is a grant program

Wednesday, 22 May, 1985 which, after giving a person a grant you go around and say, look at what good boys we are and look at all the wonderful things we did once the money's been spent. There is absolutely no value to it as far as any job creation or anything like that. The monies have already been spent. There's nothing created by doing it. So I say to the Minister, you know walking around at the opening of a personal care home with all the senior citizens there, with a hard-hat on saying Jobs Fund on it, it just points out how far we'll carry things to try and do image building.

So I put that out I would like to ask the Minister if he is projecting any special warrants this year with regard to this particular appropriation? HON. E. KOSTVRA: No, not at this time. We'd expect the departments would stay within their budget plans. Just one further comment There was a suggestion that the program information, advertising is going out after the programs. In the case of the major advertising campaigns that we are talking about in terms of this area, that information goes out at the start of a program, not after the program is completed. MR. R. BANMAN: Just in conclusion then, Mr.

Chairman, I just point out to the Minister that the Member for Elmwood raised what I think is a very interesting question. The NOP now are taking credit for the Jobs Fund and of course, come the next election I would imagine that will be part of the TV ads that we'll see, it's the NOP and the Jobs Fund; so it's synonymous. So it becomes very difficult and the Minister must appreciate it, for them to say this is strictly objective.

The Jobs Fund ads, the Limestone ads, it's totally different than Manitoba Travel and I just point that out I think that it's something when we're seeing a 25 percent increase in advertising and we're holding the hospitals at 2 percent, it just doesn't make sense. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I was just going to make the comment that nothing is totally objective in the political world. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, I wanted to comment on the position taken by the Honourable Member for La Verendrye and simply say that there is a line between information and propaganda and I think the government has gone over that line and it's going over the line every day on Limestone and on the Jobs Fund, in particular. I want to say, the Minister says he's opposed to image advertising.

I want to ask him just a small question, going back to his enthusiastic support for HER izons magazine, when he puts in a full page advertisement with a letter and his photograph, whether he considers that image advertising or whether he considers that information. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I didn't put any ad in HER izons magazine. MR. R. DOERN: I see. Well, then can the Minister explain how a full page ad with a letter from him and his photograph which somebody forwarded appeared in that magazine, concomitant with a $1 0,000 grant? Was that a freebie from the magazine? HON. E.

KOSTVRA: I wrote a letter to them, as was reproduced in that magazine. It was not intended for an ad, nor was it paid for as an ad. The decision to print it was theirs. It was not at my request. MR. R. DOERN: I see. So was in appreciation of a $1 0,000 grant that the magazine put that in. The point is, Mr.

Chairman, I think as was indicated, the advice that the Minister will get from his advertising agency, which is getting rich as a result of all these advertisements appearing throughout the province is to advertise more because of all the opportunities of getting production costs and commissions, etc., that will always be the advice of the PR people and the advertising agencies.

And along with that, with buying ads in the weekly newspapers and on television and radio and in the press of buying space and time is the hope of better treatment, that the government will provide dolla rs which is, in the case of smal l publi cations, in the case of weekly newspapers and so on, are something very much appr eciated and sought for.

I just find it a clear case and I think the government has simply lost the ability to distinguish between public money and their own and that they are, in effect, unable to see that what they are doing is taking taxpayers money and buying ads to advance their own position. This is being done too much and it's becoming too frequent an occurrence.

If you look at the modern government in action -and this is a good example by being a bad example -millions and millions of dollars being spent for, in effect, image building advertising, regardless of the consequences, regardless of the value, in effect a form of bribe ry.

All of us think superior to the old days when people used to and buy drinks and give money to voters to votes -this is going back many decades, if not a or more and what is happening here, in effect, is that votes are being bought with massive expenditures terms of the economy, billions of dollars in the case of Limestone, hundreds of millions in regard Fund and mil lions of dol lars in regard to advertising and promoting those particular programs. I think this is a sad comment and a cynical view of that government can be used in any purpose to re-elect the party in power.

Conservative Party in the Lyon administration, suffered as a result of a reaction to that I think this government also will pay the supreme penally for dipping into the taxpayers' pockets to promote the re-election of the New Democratic administration. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would just like to add some comments to what the other members of the opposition have indicated on the advertising on both the Jobs Fund and Limestone.

While I understand that governments are going to do some advertising on these, I find it particularly offensive to have the amounts of money that have been spent on these programs when we have the Mi nister 2192

Wednesday, 22 May, 1985 of Community Services who is constantly having to stand up in the House that there isn't enough money for this program and there isn't enough money for that; when we have the Minister of Education standing up in public asking the publ ic to provide winter clothing for children in the Core area and yet we have this government spending monies like this on advertising. It's particularly offensive to find that this is what's happening with a government who is stressing that they care.

The one thing we know they care about certainly is getting re-elected and that's how they're using these funds. I do expect to see some advertising on any of the programs, that there will be advertising, the amount of funds that are going into these advertisements that should be going in to helping the programs on wife abuse, that we can't get secondary stage housing. The Winnipeg situation alone on this is just abso lutely discraceful and yet here is where the government's priorities are.

I say to you, and I've said it time and time again and I'm going to repeat it and I'm going to repeat when we're out in an elec tion, tha t the only thing this government is interested in is re-election; and if some of these funds, if we had taken $1 00,000 out of the Jobs Fund or $1 00,000 out of the Limestone advertising and put it in these programs, what help there is. Yet constantly we're seeing child abuse and yet there's no money to help the programs. The hospitals, everyone is crying for money and yet the one place that this government can find money for is in advertising.

Personally, I think it's disg raceful and I think it's an indictment of this government. I think it's shameful that a government that professes to care so much would waste so much of taxpayers' money and I regret having to keep saying this, but it's so true. I look at these programs and I look at the amount of monies that are spent and when I hear those ads on the radio and I think, God, how we could be helping people and it's not happening.

I think the government's going to pay for that at the next election and it's because of this type of unfeeling advertising that they're doing and wasteful spending of government's money. I'm sorry that it's this Minister that has to take the brunt of it all, but since it's under his department he certainly is, but all of them have to be feeling that this is wrong. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: The member's comments took me back to the time when she and her party were in government and such ads appeared, such as "Sitting On A Gold Mine"; didn't talk about specific program opportunities or economic developments that were happening, but were rather talking about some far-off program. I think that the member speaks with some different tongue at different times . . . MRS. G. HAMMOND: What did you say about it then? HON. E. KOS TYRA: ...

I've already made mention of what her colleagues across-the-board are doing with $12 million in terms of advertising which is not dealing with any kind of program, any kind of job opportunities, any kind of economic development opportunities. I think it's very important that we maximize those opportunities so we will have the kind of revenues, the kind of economic prosperity in this province so that we do have the funds to provide for the necessary social and health structure that we, as Manitobans, want to maintain.

We're going to have to work at further developing our economic opportunities in order to maintain and enhance that basis. I think that what we are doing is in keeping with the priorities of this government to increase economic opportunities, at the same time, to look at the social and health concerns of these people, and our advertising programs meet those targets. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, the comments of the other members are something that I agree with, and I find I want to add to the fact that I find it rather disgusting that we are spending money on advertising when the NDP programs, or the advertising they did and the bu lletins they put out, to give you one example, during the last election said that we would do everything possibl e to hold down taxes in the City of Winnipeg, and they're rising. Yet, we find ourselves in the position of close to $3 million in advertising, which is a 25 percent increase, approximately.

I would say that when he mentioned Saskatchewan, I can tell you that I have in my file downstairs an expenditure of the Saskatchewan Government, while the NDP was in power, on advertising that came close to $7 million. When he speaks of the advertising that was done by the previous party, the PC Party, when we were in power, it was frankly peanuts compared to what this advertising is going. I hear a laugh from the Mi nister down at the other end.

I had an adve rtisi ng program in Economic Development and Tourism that was a program that had four different ads that came on television showing people doing jobs in Manitoba saying there were job opportunities in the Province of Manitoba and it was a good place to live. If I'm not mistaken, the Member for Elmwood was very critical of me at that time for spending $62,000 on it. Mr.

Chairman, I had the Premier sitting approximately right over there, or maybe at the end of the table, in my Estimates giving me what for, for spending that kind of money to tell people that Manitoba was a good place to live and there were job opportunities within Manitoba.

Let's not beat around the bush about the sort of hypocritical type of statements that we've had at the present time from the Premier regarding telling the people that this is a good place to live and there's opportunities in Manitoba, and it's the duty of the government to do so, when he sat right where the Minister is sitting down at the end of the table right now and told me that it was a disgraceful thing to do. So, Mr. Chairman, I can only say that the Member for La Verend rye is cor rect when he ma kes the statement that the Saskatchewan NOP Government learned the hard way.

I guess the Progr essive Conservative Government learned the hard way, as the Member for La Verendrye ·h as said, and it obviously is a fact that the NDP Government in Manitoba haven't learned. But the disappointing thing about them not learning is that people of Ma nitoba could be using this $3 million-plus, $3 million plus the production costs. 2193

Wednesday, 22 May, 1985 Now, I would ask the Minister, at the present time, who is the advertising agency that is working with these funds? Does the advertising audit place them directly with the stations, or are they placed through an agency? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I believe the question was related to placement. That is done directly by the advertising audit office. In terms of agencies that are used for production, there's a wide range of them and they are dealt with by tender. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: Does the Minister, being in charge of the communications, or the advertising audit, have any rundown of the number of communications peoples ther e are in the different depa rtment s in the government? HON. E. KOSTYRA: That staff does not report to this department, nor to anyone in this department, contrary to what was said. They're reporting directly to the Deputy Ministers in each of the respective departments.

I believe that the number would be in the 30, 35, somewhere around that figure of communic ations personnel in each of the various departments that report, either directly to the deputy or through a director of communications to the deputy. MR. F. JOHN STON: The Mini ster mentio ned th e production costs are in the departments. Now, $400,000 for advertising for the Jobs Fund -and I ask this because I don't want to jump into other departments, I can ask it th ere -under the Jobs Fund, I don't see any appropriation for advertising production. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I don't have the page in front of me, but I bel ieve there's a line in th ere for (Interjection) - administration and ... MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well, I can ask it then. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, I believe there's a line for administration and other expenses. What page is that on? MR. F. JOHNSTON: No. 139. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Top of the page. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Could it be Expenditures related -no, capital that's too much. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I believe they're covered in each of the areas under Operating Expenditures by each of the three subcomponents, but while we're there dealing in the Ho use with that line, we will provide that information. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I realize the Minister is not the Minister of Energy, but there's a line in the Energy Department says Provincial Audit Programs. Does that relate to production for . . . HON. E. KOSTYRA: I don't believe that relates to this advertising. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: Now I seem to recall the Minister giving us a figure in the House last year of $1. 2 million regarding advertising production costs, etc., for the Jobs Fund. Correct me if I'm wrong. I seem to have that figure in my mind as a statement in the House that was an Order for Return, I believe, or a request of the Minister. That figure of $1.2 million for the Jobs Fund last year, are we saying that the Jobs Fund at $400,000 plus production, etc., will come to that again? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I believe the figure that the member is referring to - I think it was 1.1 -something million -related to the first year of the Jobs Fund operations; we are now in year three. It related to all costs related to public information; it included advertising costs, production costs, leaflets, brochures, program application forms, all of that material, so it included advertising. I believe the actual figures for advertising that year were in the range of ... I don't recall the specific figure, but that was the total cost of all forms of public information. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: I know the Minister would have to break it down, but is there any figure that we can come close to regarding production costs for these ads? HON. E. KOS TYRA: On average, production costs relate to about 25 percent of the cost of the actual placement. MR. F. JOHNSTON: On average, 25 percent. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Okay. Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't have any more comments, other than to make one comment.

I heard the accusation "sitting on a gold mine" said to us, and we have stated that probably we should have looked at the spending because ii certainly didn't do us any good from that point of view. I don't see anything wrong with saying Manitoba is a gold mine and a wonderful place to live, but I also heard the comment from down the table, "don't stop us now." I would say to the Minister that that was an election campaign expenditure just the same as his billboards are a party expenditure at the present time. Regardless of whether they were good or bad, !hey were paid for by the political party.

So, as I said, I had nothing but criticism from the NOP. The Member for Elmwood, when I commented that he was opposing it and saying it was the wrong thing to do, at least he is consistent. He didn't like it then and he doesn't like it now.

From that point of view, I think that the government should take another look at these expenditures because I want to tell them every time somebody gets a higher tax bill, or every time somebody can't get in a hospital, and every time there isn't enough money to give services when there is wife beating or child abuse, etc., I can assure you every time most people see one of those ads, they say; who is paying for that? MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(e)( 1) -the Member for Kirkfield Park. 2194

Wednesday, 22 May, 1985 MRS. G. HAMMOND: I just had one question. Did the Minister indicate that all the ads are tendered? HON. E. KOSTYRA: All the ads are placed through the Adver tising Audit Office directly; there is no tendering of the placement of ads. MRS. G. HAMMOND: You mentioned something about tendering in there. What were you referring to? HON. E. KOSTYRA: That's for the agencies to produce the material, the production. MR. CH AIRMAN: 3. (e) (1) - pass; 3. (e)(2)- pass; 3.(e)(3)- pass; 3.(e)(4)- pass. 3.(f)( 1) Information Services: Salaries; 3.(f)

(2) Other Expenditures -the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Information Services is basically the information bulletins that come out to us weekly, am I correct? HON. E. KOSTYRA: It includ es the editing and distribution mechanism for that, the operation of the legislative press conference room downstairs, and that's basically the operations. MR. F. JOHNSTON: What is the distribution? I know all MLAs get it. What is the general distribution; I mean on the News Services? Where does it go to, other than media and government people? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: There are two sets of distribution; one is for full news releases, and the second is for news briefs, which is the capsule information on the more detailed. The full news go to 212 news media; MLAs, MPs, deputies, libraries, etc.- 385. The news briefs also include rural municipalities, various municipal officials, ag reps, provincial boards, commis sions, Provincial Government branches, and that totals 725. MR. F. JOHNSTON: And there is no change in that distribution from last year, is there? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(f)( 1) -the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Just a couple questions on this area. In the Information Services, are the news releases made up in the different departments and then they go down to Information Services, or what happens there? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Most of them are developed in the departments and edited through Information Services, though Information Services does generate some for the Premier's Office and, on occasion, for Finance. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(f)( 1) -pass; 3.(f)(2)- pass. 2195 3.(g)

(1) Translation Services: Salaries; 3.(g)

(2) Other Expenditures -the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, are we going into Private Memb ers' Hour today? MR. CHAIRMAN: We are going to Private Members' Hour, we could finish this one at least. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Yes, that's right. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(g)( 1) . MR. F. JOHNSTON: I just asked the Minister, he mentioned last year it was a real problem getting translators, and I will just ask him the same question. Is he still having problems getting them? His budget is approximately the same, which would indicate we'll get the same amount of translation done this year as last year. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I should explain, the branch has been reorganized. The legal translation has been removed from the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation and has moved to a unit within the Attorney­ General' s Department; that's all the legal translators. That was the area that I commented on last year, there was some difficulty hiring legal translators because of demands in Ontario and in New Brunswick.

What is left now is the general translation services which provides for the translation of letters, government documents, both from English to French, French to English, and has the capacity or capability, through contract, to provide translation into other languages other than English or French. There is no difficulty in getting staff for those general translations. The difficulty was in the legal translator area. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(g)( 1)- pass; 3.(g)(2)- pass. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Oh, I'm sorry. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Is this the department that the government gets interpreters for other departments? Wher e, Mr . Chairman, does the government get interpreters, I don't imagine that they are on staff? Do they come from any certain area? HON. E. KOSTYRA: In terms of translation into French, there is one full time on staff interpreter available to the courts, other departments. We also have some translators that on occasion can perform interpretive situations or deal with those kind of situations. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I wasn't specifically thinking of French, because I did realize that that was a capacity that the government had. But I'm wondering for some of the other cultural organizations or people just coming in off the street.

Wednesday, 22 May, 1985 HON. E. KOSTYRA: In terms of translation in other languages, we do have people who are on contract or can be pla ced on contract, to do work in other languages. In terms of

interpretation into other languages, other than English and French, we do not have that capacity within the government. The Citizenship Council, the International Centre has a lang uage bank which provides that service for the courts and for other public sectors. But we do not have that capability within the government MRS. G. HAMMOND: When you use the Citizenship Council, do you pay for those services? HON. E. KOSTYRA: We don't use them.

I don't know whether or not on occas ion other gover nment departments use them, and I wouldn't know whether or not they pay for them. do know that they are coming in to meet with us shortly to talk about their program and requirements for financing their program. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(g)( 1)- pass; 3.(g)(2)-pa ss . MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask a few questions here on the Translation Services. I ju st wrote away to the various provi nces for information on a matter about the environment and the question about disposable bottles and so on. I just got back a number of replies.

Now one of the replies is from the Province of Quebec and the letter came back in French. The material came back, some general clippings, in French and English and then I guess the detailed regulations, etc., also came back in French. I'm just wondering what our policy is in regard to inquiries of government, whether they are answered precisely in the language of the inquiry or whether there is some combination. What is the, sort of, procedure? HON. E. KOSTVRA: The services available for, I don't know if the member's interested in my answer.

There is a service available and it's available for members of the legislature. If it's detailed regulations, then that may be a significant undertaking. But if it's simple correspondence or documents, it can be done fairly easily, but if you get into the area of detailed regulations it takes time. It also sometimes requires more than just a general translator because you're dealing with legal terms, that one has to be careful in terms of how they're translated. MR. R. DOIERN: Well, my question wasn't in regard to translating the material I received.

My question concerns a citizen writing to the government in the French language or any other language, does he get a reply in that language and does he get material, in the case of a French letter entirely in French, in terms of his answer and other material? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The practice is whoever replies makes a determination whether or not it should be �eplied to in that same language in terms of documents. If those documents are available and have already been translated they'd be provided, but there's no specific pol icy to trans late every do cument into another language for reply. MR. R.

DOERN: I also want to know about federal funding in this particular area. Are there monies available, staff available? HON. E. KOSTYRA: There's no federal funding in the general translation in the coming year. The member was out of the room when I responded to a question from the Member of Sturgeon Creek. legal translation is no longer in this department and is in the Department of the Attorney-General. Any questions with regard to that would have to be directed to him. MR. CHAIRMAN: It is almost Private Members' Ho ur. The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. f.

JOHNSTON: I just have a couple of questions on Information Services. I think we could do it very quickly. I can't speak for the other members, though, of the committee. Mr. Chairman, the Member for Elmwood is suggesting he has quite a few questions. We should possibly come back to it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Today's Wednesday, so we'll not be coming back in the evening. MR. f. JOHNSTON: Well, Thur sday then. HON. G. KOSTYRA: Can we conclude this item? MR. f. JOHNSTON: Oh, Translation Services. MR. R. DOERN: No. I would like to hold it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The time being 4:30. It's time for the Private Memb ers' Hour.

Committee rise. SUPPLY - AGRICUL TURE MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: Committee will come to ord er. We are considering the Estima tes of the Department of Agriculture, Item 3. Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation. Does the Minister have an opening statement? HON. B. URUSKI: Yes. Mr. Chairman, I should provide some basic information !or the honourable members on the activities of the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation. In 198 4-85 fiscal year, the Corporation reached an unprecedented level of $73. 7 million in activities and loans and assistance to Manitoba farmers.

This is the second year in a row that loans and assistance to Manitoba farmers have exceeded $70 million. This represents more than 14 0 percent increase over the average for the fiscal years '77-78 through'82-83. During the'84-85 fiscal year, 767 fixed rate loans for more than $30 million were made under MACC's Direct Lending Program; 683 farmers received guaranteed operating loans totalling $39.8 million. In addition, 199 farmers received first year assistance and 44 1 received second year assistance for $3. 7 million under the Manitoba Interest Rate Relief Program. 2196

Wednesday, 22 May, 1985 Under the Young Farmer Rebate Program, over $2.2 million was returned to farmers under age 40. The Young Farmer Rebate Program provides a 4 percent rebate on the first $50,000 loaned over a five-year period on a long-term loan. Many of MACC's clients, like producers throughout this countr y, are encou ntering serious financial difficulties. This past March, the interest rates on MA CC's Direct Loan Program reduced to 8 percent for the 198 4-85 fis cal This was done with the annou nced a $20 mil lion Com prehensive Refinancing Program assist farmers in financial distress.

This provides for loans up to $200,000 to farmer s for th e consolidation and restructuring of their debts. The interest rate on the first $100,000 of the loan is 9.75 percent for the first five years of the loan; and the interest rate on the portion of the loan over $1 00,000 is at MACC's regular lending rate. On a $1 00,000 loan at MACC's current interest rates, farmers qual ifying for the program would save about $1 5,000 over the first five-year term of the loan.

Over the past three years, several new programs have been introduced to assist young beg inning and expanding pr oducers and pr oduc ers in financial dif ficulties. This includes the Interest Rate Relief Program which was introduced to help ease the burden of high interest rates and farmers in financial difficulty. Over 1, 200 farmers have received assistance under the Interest Rate Relief Program.

In the first part of 19 83, when it became apparent that many farmers were having difficulty obtaining oper ating loans, the Gu aranteed Operating Loan Pro gram was put in place. ln'83-84, 517 farmers received $28.4 million in guara nteed operating loans; and this past fisc al year 683 farmer s received guaranteed operating loans $39.8 Two years MACC clients between April and December rates between 13 .5 and 17.5 percent were option to buy down the rates to 13 percent. was exercised on 640 loans $36.272 million. This represents a potential savings $18 million over the remaining terms of those loans.

This past year, the interest rate for clients on MACC's Direct Loan Program was reduced to 8 percent. During the current year, in addition to its Regular Lending Program and the Guaranteed Operating Loan Program, MACC is assisting farmers in financial difficulty through consoli dating and restruct uring debts under the Compr ehensive Refinancing Program introduced in Ma rch. MA CC's programs will continue to be targetted toward th e young er, be ginni ng and expanding producers and farmers in financial difficulty.

MACC also administers the Commercial Fishermen's Loan Program on behalf of the Minister of Natural Re sources and th at department. The re are approximately 2,500 licensed commercial fishermen in this province and as of April 30, 19 85, 1, 270 or over 50 percent had loans with MACC. In the 198 4-85 fiscal year, 88 new and 859 supplemental loans were approved for $2,322,464.00. Mr. Chairman, this briefly gives the honourable members opposite a financial overview picture of the activities of the Corporation over the past year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. Thank Chairman. Mr.

Chairman, I guess if any area of responsibility that this Minister of Agriculture has failed has been that dealing with the farm financial crisis Manitoba and the manner in which he has performed personally and in which he has failed to give the kind of confidence and the kind of leadership to the farm community and to the people of Manitoba who depend on government leadership in these areas, his record is extremely I think almost to the point, Mr.

Chairman, where in it has caused a lot of extreme pressure for individuals who have been living in hope, who have been thinking that some day they would be able to apply for a Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation Program and get the kind of assistance they so desire. Let's just look, Mr. Chairman, at some of the record of the Minister and his carrying's on over the last few months in this whole area of farm financing and the need for action on his part, and the kinds of areas of demonstrated lack of credibility that this Minister has put forward.

I go back to some of the comments that were made in the earlier part of the winter when we see the Mirlister -in fact, we look at November of 19 84 -where the Minister of Agriculture had five big points of recovery in which he was pointing out that he had certain answers and certain areas that he could resolve the farm problem. He went to the Manitoba Pool Elevators and made a speech pointing out five areas.

The main areas in which he spoke on were not within his jurisdiction; they were mainly federal initiatives which in fact he had very little influence over, but was again playing the political fed bashing game that he's played all the -way through the piece. want to as well point out that all those initiatives which he was having a lot to talk about at that particular time, there really hasn't been anything come about. It has been time that he ha s put in that hasn 't accomplished, I think, anything to assist those farmers who are in extreme financial difficulties. We carry on, Mr.

Chairman, to the meet ing of Agricult ure Mini sters wher e in fact it is my understanding that they had a technical committee struck to conform with some recommendations dealing with the Agro-Bond Program, which the Federal Government have talked a considerable amount about; that there was a general agreement that the provinces were supportive of such a concept. I looked forward, quite frankly, to seeing some positive recommendations coming from the technical committee struck by the provinces of Canada to make recommendations for federal action. I would have thought possibly it was a reasonable way to go. Mr.

Chairman, following on that whole activity of the Minister, we saw the Minister of Agriculture again go off on a tangent and try to get coverage within the 2197

Wednesday, 22 May, 1985 farm commun ity, and he got it all right, the kind of coverage that I don't imagine many people would really look forward to getting. That's on the January 15th press release, stating that the Minister of Agriculture in Manitoba had called on the governments of all of Canada, provincial and federal, that he called on the lending institutions to come to a meeting in Winnipeg to give him a commitment that they would be writing their interest rates down to 8 percent.

It was a strange sort of a situation, because he came to the Legislature the day after he met with the newly­ formed Keyst one Agricultur al Producers, a farm organization of which he was their guest speaker. The day before, he had a good opportunity to lay his ideas forward, to discuss with some of the progressive farmers who were at that meeting his ideas and thoughts on the reduction of interest rates. It would have been a good idea, I think, for him to have at least brought the idea forward at that meeting to get a feel for how his proposal might float in the public eye and with the farm community.

But he didn't see fit to discuss or consult with the farmers; he decided that he would pull a big political maneuver. The next day he would call a full-blo wn news conference. He'd fill the News Media Room, and he would call for everyone in society that lends money out, the credit unions, the banks, the governments across Canada to lower their interest rates to 8 percent. Well, he got tremendous coverage because we, for some time, had been asking for lower interest rates for the farm commun ity. Yes, Mr.

Chairman, we all wanted lower interest rates for the farm commun ity, but I think the one thing that each and every person that was wanting lower interest rates wanted to deal with it and handle it in a responsible manner, something that this Minister hasn't been able to do in any area of his responsibil ities . A MEMBER: Incapable. MR. J. DOWNEY: That's right. He's incapable of dealing responsibly with a serious situation. He played a big political game and he lost. He lost credibili ty with the farm community in Manitoba. He lost credibili ty with the credit unions, and let's remember who the credit unions are.

He lost cred ibili ty with the Ma nitoba agricultural commun ity. He lost credibility with his provincial counterparts throughout Canada. He lost credibili ty with the federal people who are involved in the financial lending of money. That's the No. 1 credibility loss that he had in the handling of what was a very serious and a very major problem which we're all very concerned about, played politics with the livelihoods of those people who were extremely and severely dist ressed because of the economic climate of which he and his government are part of creating. Mr.

Chairman, a follow-up to that meeting or the call to that meeting, he saw where he was beat. Of course, what was his response? Well, of course, it was the terrible opposition who had phoned every provincial Minister of Agriculture in Canada and just scuttled his meeting. I say, Mr. Chairman, wouldn't it be nice to have that kind of influence? Mr. Chairman, the people of Manitoba should be well aware that we do have more credibility and could in fact have pulled off a meeting of such magnitude. I'll make reference, Mr.

Chairman, to the meeting that was called in 1979 that brought together all the participants, all the provinces and the participants in the grain handling industry. We proved that we could pull together the actors and the people who would put forward commitments to get the job done of moving grain. It was an excellent opportunity, Mr. Chairman, for the Minister to have put forward in a serious way the concerns of the Manitoba farmers who were in distress, but he wanted to play politics with it.

He wanted to play politics and try to gain political points for his own government and for himself, as he said last night. What is his main objective? To improve his own image. That's what he wants, to improve his own image. That's what his objective has been all the way through, Mr. Chairman. Yes, Mr. Chairman, it's on Hansard. It's in the record precisely what his objective is, is to improve his own image. It follows through. It now comes loud and clear as to what MACC, the meeting he called for the financial people of this country was all about.

It was a political posture for the Minister of Agricultur e of Manitoba. The sincerity to help the farmer in Manitoba was not there. Mr. Chairman, let us go forward again and look at what happened next. Let's go to February 1st, about the Farm Outlook Conference time. What did the Minister of Agriculture in Manitoba do? Well, this follows on some moves taken in Saskatchewan a few weeks before when we called the Min ister of Agriculture in Manitoba to call the Legislative Assembly so we could put ideas forward. Mr.

Chairman, the press release of February 1st, Farm Debt Legislation being drafted by Uruski; Minister to seek Views of Manitoba Farmers. He's caught in a trap, Mr. Chairman. His politics failed; his political posturing failed to call a national meeting. His political agenda bombed on him.

Now we have the Minis ter of Agriculture, a publ ic press statem ent, February 1st: "Ma nitoba Agricultur e Minister has instructed his department to draft farm debt adjustment legislation and has announced that he will consult Manitoba farmers and their organizations to determine their views on the issues." Well, I ask the Minister - he has now drafted the legislation - when will we have a chance to see the farm debt legislation that he's talked about? Mr. Chairman, the Minister says that he has instructed his department to prepare it.

He made a big speech out at the Brandon Outlook Conference, because he thought that was the thing to say. He came back to the Oak Bluff Outlook Conference a day or two later, and it had all changed, Mr. Chairman. Now he again changed directions. He said, well, that really isn't the way to go. I'm going to back off now, because I talked to somebody and they really don't think it's the right way to go. I don't know, Mr. Chairman. I don't know where this Minister of Agriculture really intends to take the farm community when it's in regard to farm financing. He calls .a meeting that bombed on him.

He couldn't get anybody to come, because he was political posturing and trying to get himself and his own image improved in his government's image. He instructs his department to draft farm debt legislation, makes the announcement at one Outlook Conference; the next day, he's going another d;r ection. 2198

Wednesday, 22 May, 1985 Well, when you're in a financial stress, when you're a farmer sitting out there owing thousands of dollars, looking to a government who have said they'r