PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT House of Assembly For the period: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. Tuesday, March 8, 1977

March 8, 1977, Tape 807, Page 1 -- apb The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! We have a number of visitors in the gallery today whom I would like to welcome to the House on behalf of hon. members. We have sixty Grade X and Grade XI students from St. George's High School in New Harbour, Trinity Bay .accompanied by their teachers Mr. Brown, Mr. Smith and Mr. Brooks. We also have twenty-three Grade XI students from John Watkins Central High School in Hermitage accompanied by some teachers; a Mr. Albert Loveless, Mr. Harding, !1r. Wilfred ~oberts, Mr. Carter and Mr. S.

Loveless. I know all hon. members join me in welcoming the students from New Harbour and from Hermitage to the House of Assembly. RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: We also have in the Speaker's Gallery this afternoon, and I welcome on behalf of hon. members, Commander Freil _l of the H.M.C .s .Iroquois. As hon. members may know the H.M.C.S. Iroquois is at present doing surveillance work, patrolling within the 200 mile limit of the waters off the Province. RON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKEY: Hear, hear! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: The hon. the Minister of Tourism. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to make the following statement in connection with the efforts of my department to acquire lands at Sandringham for Parks Canada to construct a golf course. The Gros Morne agreement provided for the construction of a golf course in a national park in Newfoundland. By mutual agreement Terra Nova National Park was selected as the location for the course. Before work started on site assessment for the course a request was received by Parks Canada from the Eastport Committee for the ~ 2215

March 8, 1977, Tape 807, Page 2 -- apb MR. HICKEY: Development of Progress that the Eastport Peninsula be considered for the golf course location. My department and Parks Canada viewed this request favourably considering the efforts that had been made on the Eastport Peninsula toward development of the tourist industry and the boost to these efforts which could be provided by a golf course. Subsequently the Sandringham site was identified and agreed to by the East port Development Committee and the town Sandringham,provided landowners concerned could be satisfied.

Negotiations started with the landowners·· in August 1976 when an appraiser was hired. The offers made on the basis of the appraisa~ were turned down by the landowners. We then offered the option of a second appraisal but this has also been refused by a majority of the landowners concerned. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear~ MR.

HICKEY: We have therefore advised the land- owners concerned in a letter of February 28, 1977, and at a meeting at Sandringham March 5, that since they have-not agreed to a second appraisal we cannot proceed further with negotiations for the land and we can no longer consider the Sandringham site. Parks Canada are now proceeding to identify another site for the golf course.

I would emphasize that the changing of the site will not mean a delay on the start of construction of the golf course itself as the 1977 construction season on the Sandringham site would have been required for road relocation, with actual construction of the golf course scheduled for 1978. We are confident that a new site can be identified during the coming summer an~ the necessary planning completed to permit construction to start in 1978 as originally scheduled. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR.

LUSH: I am certainly disappointed to hear the minister say that the negotiations have now ceased with the landowners at Sandringham. Because 2216

Harch 8,1977 Tape 808 AH-1 MR. LUSH: certainly would like to have seen the golf course go in that area but)of course,there is nothing that I can say now because I cannot debate ;the Minister's Statement there are some things I would like to say about it ,however I just want to say that I am tremendously disappointed that the golf course will not now go on the Eastport Peninsula.

I can only say that I am sorry that it took so lons:~ to. cancel negotiations because possibly had the negotiations been done a little more quickly>a little more expediciously 1 ___ we could have gotten started on the alternate site a little more quickly. In conclusion I just want to say that I think it is incumbent upon the provincial government to insure that the golf course does go in the Terra Nova National Park.

I do believe that it is the feeling of the provincial government and certainly of Parks Canada 1 that the golf course will go in the Terra Nova National Park even though it will not go in the Eastport Peninsula. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: Ron. member for Bay of Islands. MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of 279 voters on the Northshore of Bay of Islands and especially in the Cox's Cove area.

The petition reads as follows: ''This petition is being circulated to ask _your support in asking our provincial government for assistance in obtaining a ice plant for the Mar~hall MOores Arena, Cox's Cove. And I would like to say, Mr. Speaker, that this arena started in 1973 with an OFY grant of $16,000. It measures 101 by 202 feet, has an ice surface of 80 by 180 feet, seating capacity of 700 people, standing room for about 200 people. Two LIP grants went into it amounting to $135,000. The provincial government gave the sum of $110,000 and quite a lot of free labour.

Now the han. member for Humber East and secretary -of the Executive council, member of the Executive Council, I am sorry, visited Cox's Cove yesterday 2217

March 8,1977 Tape 808 AH-2 MR. WOODROW: morning and we really certainly were amazed at the magnificant structure that stands in this community. It reminds me of an impossible dream and it is now incidentially- and this is a point I want to bring out - it is now serving the whole of the Northshore of Bay of Islands , and it is hoped that a Regional Sports Committee will be formed.

I would like to submit the petition to the Department of Recreation an Rehabilitation and I hope that they will take into consideration(!) the hardwork that has been done in getting this arena;and (2) they should also bear in mind that it is now serving the Northshore of the Bay of Islands and even people from the Southshore,especiatly from the Corner Brook area ,teams are going over there also, and it is amazing>really, what an impact it is really having on sports in the Corner Brook area. _And, I hope and pray that I will see the day-it almost comes to rhyme- when we will have an artificial ice plant in the Marshall Moores Arena in Cox's Cove which will serve the whole of the Northshore of the Bay of Islands.

MR. SPEAKER: Ron. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: It · gives me great pleasure, Sir, to support the petition presented by the hon. member for Bay of Islands on behalf of 279 of his constituents on the Northshore of Bay of Islands especially in the C~x's Cove area. With a name like the Moores Arena, Sir, I do not think my hon. friend will have any problem at all in getting the support necessary,on that side of the Rouse,to get this badly needed ice plant -so that they can have an ice surface the year round in Cox's Cove. Mr.

Speaker, in my opinion, Sir, the Minister of Finance and the ~finister of Rehabilitation and Recreation should give very serious consideration to the prayer of this petition because after all- AN RON. M!}1BER: And the President of Treasury Board. Ma. NEARY: the president of Treasury Board the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation, after all , Mr. Speaker, Z218

March 8, 1977 Tape 809 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: Mr: Speaker, it is far better to provide stadium facilities, recreational facilities for our people so they can go out and enjoy healthy recreation and sport, it is far better to dp that, Sir, than for the government to invest its money in jails - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I should direct the hon. gentleman's atteneion to the requirement that he confine his remarks to the material allegations of the petition, which he certainly had done up until the last phrase -C?r_!o. MR. s. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I do hope, Sir, that the ministry, the Premier and his ministers,will recognize the need for these facilities in the Cox··' s Cove area, and that they will give things like ice plants top priority in the Budget that should be brought down some time in the next week or so. Because after all, Mr. Speaker, it is far better to do that than to put people in jail or in correctional institutions. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member from Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. R. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, it is with a great deal of pleasure that I rise to support the petition so ably presented by my friend and colleague from the Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow). 279 people in the Cox.' s -Cove area - MR. MORGAN: Your colleague? MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I take pride that that -gentleman is my colleague. I make no apologies for that at all, he is my colleague in another field. We are all waiting to hear the minister's speech but his time will come, Mr.

Speaker. -279 people from the Cox's Cox's area have taken enough interest in this matter to forward a petition to their hon. member who has done his duty and done it well today by presenting a petition in this House. I concur very much with what the last speaker has just said about the name of the arena, it certainly augers well ~ for the hopes of the people out there. Thank God at least one arena bears that name,Mr. Speaker. There is ~ 221.9

March 8, 1977 Tape 809 PK - 2 Mr. Simmons: a story going around about a Bishops Falls arena which did not get to bear that name but that is another story. I would say to the hon. member;that he stands a very excellent chance of having the prayer of the petition answered almost immediately. The odds would be increased considerably if he would resign his seat, cause a by-election and his ice plant and the Ferryland arena would be announced once again.His ice plant for the first time, and the Ferryland arena for the fifth or sixth time. ..SOME" RON~ MEMBERS :· - Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: Perfectly in order. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member from Conception Bay South. MR. J. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I rise also to support - MR. ROBERTS: You cannot walk out on this Delegation 'Jim'. MR. NOLAN: - the prayer of the petition as so ably presented by our good friend the member from the Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow9. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

NOLAN: And any suggestion that this is done with any levity er so on is really an insult to the people that he represents in this House, ~d especially the 279 who took the trouble to place their - -- --· ----- -- ~ames on the pe~ition and entrust it in· his care to present it before tnis the people's House. Now what is the good of an arena without the ice? Is there any ice there at all? MR. WOODROW: Artific:t.al.. ,-·· MR. NOLAN: Artificial. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. WOODROW: It is mostly roller skating. MR. NOLAN: Roller skating. MR. MORGAN: The first floor is down. MR.

NOLAN: Did you not get asked to Edmonton? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Ob, oh! MR. NOLAN: Is it okay to go on, Mr. Speaker? I do not want to interrupt anything. Z220

March 8, 1977 Tape 809 PK - 3 MR. ROBERTS: I thought you were going to say you do not want to say anything. MR. NOLAN: Anyway we certainly support the prayer of the petition, and hope that,certainly,the member-'s colleague and friend also,the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation,will stand to his feet to outline his position regarding this ice plant. MR. SIMMONS: And make his first speech in the House. MR. NOLAN: And-make his first speech in the House, yes. But anyway the thing is that the hon. member suggests that it was built I believe in 1970, was it? MR.. WOODROW: 1973. MR. NOLAN·: .. 1973.

And so I would think the people out there now are looking for a bit of ice to go on the arena floor which is not an unusual request. I would think that recreation is as important in Cox'_s Cove as it is in say, Mount Pearl, Fer;-yland or Conception Bay South. So therefore I would hope that since this will serve many of the people, in fact, most of the · ~orthshore. of the Bay of Islands, and since there was a visit there by our hon. ·friend yesterday with the President of the Council,that we will now see some movement made 2221.

~rch 8, 1977 Tape 810 IB-1 ~!R. NOLAN: so that this ice plant can be provided without delay and that the people will not be deprived of this facility any longer. It is no good putting it off ~vhen we have people out there ~rho are growing up every day. And those of us ~-rho have had stadiums and so on wUl know that the young people develop very, very quickly, much more quickly') by the "ray) than the members of the House of Assembly Who perform on skates from time to time. smm RON. ~EFS: Oh, oh! MP .• NOLAN: With the exception of my hon. friend _ from St. _John's Center (Mr.

Murphy), I do not include him in that remark. But anyway it could be the Woodrow, Marshall, Moores Arena. That could oe a name that we cast out. MF .• NEAPY: You will have to put Farrell in there somewhere too. }!R. NOLAN: And Farrell if necessary, right. So we do hope and ~~ look forward to the time very soon when the members of the House of Assembly will yerform for your constituents on that arena out there at Cox~s Cove. SOME RON. ~'!EMBERS: Hear, hear! PRESEN'T'ING P.EPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL CO~ITTEES : ·MR. SPE.A.KER: The hon. }finister of Finance. MR.

DOODY: I have a series of special warrants to table, Sir, a total of $12,275,000. All the explanations are contained.herein. There is $5.8 million in current account, $6.4 million in capital account and all the subheads and so on are detailed. I might add, Sir, that yesterday I gave to ,the ·clerk of the Table the NMFC annual audit report Which is also necessary to be tabled. There was some discussion here a little while ago as to which should ,. . ., : ·.r :'. be or should not be actually- AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) .. · ?.fR.

DOODY: No, So·· I guess what I am doing is a kind of a test case because I feel that these things tvith respect, Sir, such as warrants should certainly be tabled. There are other things which may be less significant which should not be. And although I tried to present that point ast that time I did not get too far with it. :G222

March 8, 1977 Tape 810 IB-2 ~ffi.. DOODY: So I have gone both courses. Yesterday I passed the NMFC one to the Clerk of the Table and today I have tabled the special warrants, and both, I think, are within Your Honour's ruling. ANSWERS TO QtTF,STIONS FOR V."HICF. NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: }!R. SPEAKER: MP. ¥AYNARD: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. :r-rr. Speaker, I have the ans~rer to question No. 33 ak~ed by the hon. member for Lewisporte. }~. SPF_AKEP: The hon. ~ ~in is ter of Pub lie ~'lorks. ~- · ROUSSEAU: ¥r.

Speaker, the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir yesterday asked me a question about the Clarenville hospital. I have a note here. The same note that I give for the Clarenville hospital applies also for the Burin hospital. Architects were appointed for each of these jobs during 1976. Prior to the appointment of the architects extensive studies were carried out by highly qualified hospital consultants. These consultants define the role and prepare the programme for the delivery of health care services to these hospitals. The architects are presently incorporating these programmes in a drawing.

These preliminary drawings are approximately fifty per cent complete and are due for completion by the end of }fay. Final drawings should be cotr~pleted by the end of this current year, calendar year. The hospitals are being designed using the metric system which are the first such projects sponsored by the Department of Public Works. Special attention will be given to energy conservation on these projects. The Department of Public l-7orks is closely co-ordinating each step of the projects to ensure where there is a common problem that there is a common solution.

These solutions will tend to provide later construction savings. The member, I think, also asked me When tenders might be called. Of course that is a government decision in consultation~of course~ with the Department of Health and as a result of a decision by government that decision will be made public when the decision is made. 2223

~1 arch 8, 1977 ?-!F.. SPEAKEP.: ~1J?. ,. P.OBEPTS : Tape 810 IB-3 ORAL QUESTIONS: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Thank you, P.r. Speaker. In the absence of the Premier my quest:f,on I will add.ress to the Minister of Justice. I assume he is the acting Prel!der as the senior minister in the House. !n view of the fact, Sir, that Mr. Rich~rd Greene has confinn~d that he did,in fact) issue to 'Mr. Andrew Davidson on behalf of Scrivener Newfoundland Lilnited a receipt for the sum of $52,000 cont .t"ibuted by that firm, by means of Mr. Davidson,to the Progressive Conse:rvat:i:V.e Party during the 1972 year; and in view 2224

March 8, 1977 Tape No. 811 MR. ROBERTS: of the fact that that firm had considerable dealings with the government during that period, can the minister tell us whether the government will now agree to NM- 1 appoint a royal commission to investigate all of the circumstances surrounding the soliciting of that donation,!£ in fact it was solicited, the receipt of that donation , a commission to look into these with a view to making this report, which would be made public. MR. FLIGHT: MR.. SPEAKER: MR. HICKMAN: A good question, a good question. The hon. Minister of Justice. Mr.

Speaker, I will have to take that as notice and when the hon. the Premier returns I am sure he will be in a position to answer the question. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR.. SPEAKER : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Could the minister tell us whether he or to his knowledge any of his colleagues has had any conversation with Mr. ·Greene to ascertain the receipt of this money or the destination of it. MR. SPEAKER: MR. • . HICKMAN: MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: The hon. Minister of Justice. Not to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker. A further supplementary. A supplementary. Mr.

Speaker, could the minister tell us ~hether the Ministry have taken any steps at all with respect to the extremely serious allegations made in the House the other day by the gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary), allegations which have now ·been substantiated by a certain degree of evidence. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Premier indicated to the House yesterday the government's position and his determination, as I-recall his words, that if there was any involvement of public funds with respect to the Health Science Centre or the construction 2225,

March 8, 1977 Tape No. 811 NM- 2 MR. HICKMAN: thereof, or the overruns thereof, that he would give very serious consideration to recommending to his colleagues that there be a suitable and adequate enquiry. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, does the minister consider it proper in the circumstances that the Scrivener firm should be allowed to make a donation of more than $50,000 to the Progressive Conservation Party at the same time as a government made up of the Progressive Conservative Party is engaged in dealings with the Scrivener firm in respect of a project, the cost of which has escalated .tremendously during that period. MR. HICKMAN: I will take that as notice. MR. ROBERTS: We do not know whether it is proper or not • MR. . HICKMAN:':' I do not know if it is proper. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, a question to the Minister of Tourism as a result of his statement today. I wonder if the minister is in a position to inform the House just what - was the structure of the negotiating te~ set up to negotiate a deal with the landowners, on both sides~ tiKatwas the structure with the government side and with the landownersZ MR. SPEAKER: rh~ bon. Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure I read the question right. I assume the hon. gentleman means what was the committee comprised of or who?

The negotiating committee is naturally a matter for the Province -as- ftwere. -~The ·pro.-\i:fnce. is- used as·. a vehicle;- so - t-o s-peak, - -- - -- .. to acquire the land. And the Committe is made up of my own staff, -·-- - · --- ------ - .. the Deputy Min~_ ster ," ·the ASsistant Deputy Minister~ and Director of Parks. The beginning of the negotiations>and I think it fair to say that there has been discussions with all three 7 people, the former Assistant Deputy Minister, the present Deputy Minister, the new Assistant Deputy Minister who was the Director of Parks Z226

March 8, 1977 Tape No.· 811 NM- 3 MR. ROBERTS: and the gentleman who is now occupying the position of Director of Parks. So that there has been four involved as I recollect. Three primarily and the four at a total, the highest number. There has been a number of meetings held since the beginning of the negotiations and while I am on my feet I should say to my hon~ friend,while he is disappointed that it took so long,I assure him that it took a long time basically because we wanted to make every last effort in terms of obtainin~ the Sandringham site as it was termed to be the best site by Parks Canada.

That ~ is why it took so long. We did not want to just cut off negotiations while there was even a glimmer of hope. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova up on a supplementary. MR. LUSH: I wonder if the minister can inform the House when the negotiations first star~ed with the landowners~ MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Tourism. MR. RICKY: I am pretty sure, Mr.

Speaker, I do not have the statement before me now,but I am pretty sure I indicated in the statement. ,_, I think,it was August of last year~ .But! know that there were discussions before that - but serious negctiations got underway last August whe~ an appraiser was appointed and when -;-figu~e;iS- d,ete ruune d very shortly thereafter, and also when a figure was made known by the landowners. And Z227

March 8, 1977 Tape 812 IB-1 MR. HICKEY: as my bon. friend knows the differential or the gap between the figure brought in by the appraiser and the demands of the landowners was just very, very wide. ~ • SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~"R. LUSH: A supplementary, ~lfr. Speaker. I wonder if the minister could tell the House just what criteria might have been used in establishing the price that the appraisers established for the land? r-~. SPEAKER: The bon~ ¥inister of Tourism. MR. RICKEY: ~r.

Speaker, I have gone into this in great detail with my staff because I, like the hon. gentleman, did not want to see negotiations break down. The criterion used by the appraiser was land values close to St. John's, such as Portugal Cove where farmland was sold, land in Pasadena where land was purchased or sold, land in and around the area ~f S ~ndringham which had been sold. I at one time myself questioned seriously the values as brought in by the appraisers in relation to the demands by the landowners.

While ·acknowleaging, that the rlemands by the lando~mers appeared to be exorbitant, nevertheless I thought that I had some questions as to the values placed by the appraisers. So I went into the whole thing in detail and I satisfied myself that the appraiser went on various land transactions in strategic locations and various geographic locations in the Province:_' ,~dJ:· c;ertainly that company is without question in terms of determining a fair land value based on recent transactions. }1R. SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile followed by the bon. ~entlemen for Fogo and Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. NEARY: ¥r.

Speaker, I "t-rould like to ask the Minister of Transportation and Communications, Sir, why the minister went over to Halifax and got in bed with mainland trucking companies and placed the economy of Central and Western Newfoundland in jeopardy. SO~ RON. }4EJI.~EPS: Oh, oh! MP • . NEARY: ¥.r • Speaker, let me put it to the m~nister another way. What is the government's policy regarding transport tractor- 2228

!"arch 8, 1977 Tape 812 IB-2 ~'P-. NEARY: trailers using the Trans-canada Highway and transporting freight across this Island by rail? ~fuat is the government's policy on that? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. ~-· ~"OFGAN: ~r. Speaker, the government's policy is as put fon1ard by the Department of Transportation and Communications to the federal minister some time ago, in fact in the Spring of 1976, put forward to CN Marine the same time and also put forward to the Atlantic Provinces Truckers Association in. the Fall of 1976, all of whom responded favourably.

The meeting on Friday past held j_n Halifax ~vas held with the CN Marine officials, the top officialsJand the executive of the Atlantic Provinces Truckers , Association and the officials of the Department of Transportation and Communications in the Province here and myself. It was agreed that a committee ~vould be established to look at all the details of the proposed route from North Sydney to Argentia that would accommodate those trucks in particular that travel all the way from Port aux Basques to St.

John's,as now the transportation system exists,with full loads, trucks that do not stop at Deer Lake --or Corner Brook or Grand Falls or Gander or Clarenville but come all the way from Port aux Basques to St. John's with full loads in their vehicles and trailers. The proposal is that CN look at the possibility of establishing a year-round service to Argentia. _- designea to accommmdate the tractor-trailer industry, in particuiar these trucks I am referring to.

The tractor-trailer mode of transport has increased since 1971 ~- --'' 2,000 vehf.c;_le~ _ moved . back and forth across the Gulf to Port aux Basques~ our highway in 1971 -:_las ·t _ year) in 1976) a totai of 28,400 of these same type of veh~cles moved on and off ----: the highway. In other words) a total of 14,200 tractor-trailers - -- came into Port aux Basques on to the Trans-Canada, over the Trans- Canada, in most cases all the way to the:Avalon Peninsula. They are having a very serious effect on the structure and the roadbed - --- - ~ . ...... strength,· of the Trans-Canada HiR"hwav.

~arch 8, 1977 Tape 812 ~. ~cORGAN: Negotiations are presently ongoing and hopefully co~ing to a climax, a successful climax tvithin the next number of weeks with regards to obtaining a federal-provincial agreement to earry out lB -3 the necessary reconstruction, upgrading and in some cases in our Province four laning the Trans-Canada Highway, some sections of it.

But in the meantime until that agreement _comes about and until the necessary work is carried out on the Trans-canada Highway I feel as minister - and I am backed by my colleagues in Cabinet - it is imperative that ~:re get some .of the tractor-trailer activity diverted from Port aux Basques _1.-n_to AEg~ntia.~_ .And I am looking at primarily 2230

March 8,1977 Tape 813 AH-1 MR. MORGAN: those trucks that come all the way from Port aux Basques to St. John's with full loads. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The origional questioner on supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is the minister aware that this policy just outlined by the minister on behalf of the administration will place the economy of Central and Western Newfoundland in jeopardyf is the minister aware of that? MR. DOODY: I do not have any choice. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I am not aware it is going to have any detrimental eff§ct on the economy on the Western part of the .. province whatsoever. The trucking activity last year increased by 15 per cent over 1975. We are anticipating a projection of all concerned of a further increase of approximately 15, maybe even 20 per cent> in 1977.And looking at the overall economy) the only way to boost the l.Jestern p.art of the Province ,j and I am referring in particular to the port of Port aux Basque which I am sure the bon gentleman is concerned primarily with ;- . _. MR. NEARY: Corner Brook , Bishop Fal+s. MR.

MORGAN: -is for the federal government, is for the federal government- I hate to be always putting it off on the federal government - out transportation is primarily a federal government responsibility -~ the only way to get the overall economy of 'the Port aux Basque area improved is for the federal government to totally·- ·no-t totally -but almost totall)L abolish the user pay concept of transportation in this . _ -pr~yinc~ ,Ln this region of our country, the Atlantic region ~o pump in more subsidizattion - ~- ~n particularly the railroad activity and the movement of goods in a rail mode and therefore reduce the freight rate.

Unless the freight rate of the mode of transportt~at - -rail transportation means is reduced, the business community of this province is going to use t 2231

March 8,1977 Tape 813 AH-2 MR. MORGAN: the most satisfactory mode of transport to them number one,and number two,the most economically means to them and that is the truck mode. when that occurs, w!l_e:.f! _ we see an increased subsidization) a reduction of freight rates then these two things will automatically boost ~he economy of Port aux Basques by boosting the movement of goods back on the rails where I have always said the movement of goods belong. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary question. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, that has to be about the foolishest lesson in logic we have ever heard. But , Sir, I want to ask the minister if his department has considered doubling or tripling the rates of tractor-trailers across this~r~~i~ce ,across this Island to pay for the damage they have done to the Trans Canada Highway especially over the last few months and force . the freight back on the rails where it should be? t-Te got a pretty good rail system. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. minister. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman apparently is very parochial in his vie~~ point MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

It will perhaps come as no surprise to the hon. gentleman that he should not now enter into debate. MR. MORGAN: That is very difficult, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker the overall economy of the Western part of the _ Prov~ce which he referred to in the first part of his question~ or one of --his supplimentaries, __ _ I am saying it is tmfair to be parochial in looking at the situation with that one area of the Province Hear, hear! Z232

March 8, 19 77 Tape 813 AH-3 MR.

MORGAN: and on the other hand to make a suggestion to put excessive or high fees on the trucks coming onto the Trans-Canada Highway because that will have a tremendous effecton the overall economy of all the province by,for example, -~ising _ f~o4 prices and an overall rise in the cost of living.Because if we put high fees on those trucks, if we establish a regulation or a law saying~ You are going to be charged excessive rates for using our highway in this province. _ ~o~ _ can travel through Nova Scotia _the same as you can go through New Brunswick and down through Quebec and Ontario but when ynu get to Newfoundland you are going to be stuck with a heavy fee because of the condition of the Trans-Canada Highway.

If we do that , Mr. Speaker, I am saying it is going to have a very serious overall effec_~_ on the economy of our province by means of a substantial increase in the cost of living and that, Mr. Speaker, . is not the aim of this government, this administration SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I recognize one further supplementary from the origional question. MR.

NEARY: Is the minister aware that the policy just outlined will create all kinds of unemployment across this province?And will ,. that not create a more severe hardship on our people than doubling or. tripling the rates on tractor-trailers which are n.ow paying more . _ in .:any other province of Canada than they are in Newfoundland' - -MR. MORGAN: --- - - --- ~ _ I_s tha~~ -q~e~t:l._on_o_r_a s'tiPP~"~? _, ___ _ MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I will ask the question in my own way if the minister does not mind. MR. MORGAN: Well what is the question? Give me the question. MR.

NEARY: Well I just put the question to the minister. Are these trucking companies now paying more in other provinces of Canada? 2233

~larch 8,1977 Tape 813 AR-4 MR. NEARY: And in these days when we are talking about conserving ene"t:gy would it not be better to use rail rather than these tractor-trailers chewing up diesel fuel? MR. MORGAN: Hear, hear! That is right, yes. MR . Nl"...ARY: Well then why does the minister not do a, study on it·and· see how devastating this is going to be for the rest of th:f.s province 1 the policy

March 8, 1977 Tape 814 PK - 1 the minister just outlined for us. MR. HICKEY: Well keep your car off the Trans-Canada. MR. J. CARTER: Close the Trans-Canada. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, as I earlier said the movement of heavy bulk shipments in particular -in fact as far as I am concerned I have · advocated~ and I am sure _I ·· ~~ backing; - L' speak on behalf of the present administration, we feel as a Province that the movement of goods, particularly bulR shipments like pulpwood and oil and gas and asphalt and these kind of items7 should be on the rail not on the road_.But the only way it can go back on the rail is if the freight rates go down to a point where the shippers and the business community is going to use that mode of transport • MR.NEARY: . , But why do you not advocate that instead of Argentia?

MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, that position was put forward on at _ leas~ five different occasions in submissions to the federal level of government, and-in X number of days th~~~- will be a Commission of Enquiry appointed by the federal level of government .• That Commission of Enquiry ;_ after consultation with the major aspect of transportation, their major means . the CNR,consultation with them and consultation with this Province, tha t · transportation enquiry wil~ look at all modes of transport and hopefully will be able to make firm recommendations to resolve some of the problems we have. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member £.rom Fogo. CAPT. E. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Fisheries. In view of the criticism from the Secretary of the Marine Workers'Aasociation re his plan to lease and charter trawlers abroad, and f~om objections by the union representing the workers at Marystown Shipyard, the question is, is it now the intention of the minister to carry on with that programme rather than to pay some attention to those criticisms?

March 8, 1977 Tape 814 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W .CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I did receive a telegram from Mr. J. J. Bell, Secretary of the Marine Workers Federation in which he expressed some concern with respect to a statement attributed to me with respect to the acquisition of foreign trawlers. I replied to Mr. Bell to the _effect_ that the comments that were attributed to me were obviously taken out of context in that we were talking about ~he possibility maybe of leasing on a very short te~, a very short term arrangement,foreign trawlers.

I have a copy of my telegram here, ~d I would Qe quite happy, Mr. Speaker, to table it. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. W. CARTER: I pointed out to Mr. Bell that the Department of Fisheries is presently undertaking a study in conjunction with the Newfoundland -~~~ler ~ompanies to determine what their short and . ~d and long-term requirements will be. And once that study has been completed then we are hoping to assist them in putting together a package for the acquisition one way or the otherlhopefully by way of building ships in the Province, to allow them to expand their operations. And I have given Mr.

Bell an assurance, Mr. Speaker, as I have given this House, that the Newfoundland Government is totally committed, I repeat, totally committed to the buildup of an all Canadian fishing effort, one that will be capable of harvesting the fish resources within the 200 mile limit.?! - -course, it goes without saying that if and when we decide, and I., should say when we decide, on building that effort that the work will be done in Newfoundland, hopefully by Newfoundlanders, and Marystown will certainly be one of the shipyards that would be vyi~g for that business. -- - -- - . -- - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! CAPT.

WINSOR: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. CAPT. WINSOR: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. When the minister speaks of a short-term what is -he thinking of? what length of time would it be one year·, two years·, or beyond? 2236 ·-

March 8, 1977 Tape 814 PK - 3 MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, in my speeeh the other day to the House I pointed out some of the problems that we· are facing with respect to determining the number and the type of ships that we are going to need, especially when you are talking about fishing in the Northern areas. But that is what the study is now all about. We are now trying to determine_,working wi.th the fish compan!es 7 to find out first of all just what their present catching capability is, what their p~ocessing capabilities are, exactly what their touage will be .down the road so many years , and then - ----- ---- ---------- .. 2237

March 8, 1977 Tape No. 815 NM- 1 MR. W. CARTER: having done that then we will assist them in getting together some kind of a package for the rebuilding and the expansion of their fleet. My hon. colleague from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) said; "What size boats?" Well you are probably talking - if you are going to build ships that will be able to penetrate the Northern areas you are probably talking of ships at least in excess of 180 feet in length. The average length of draggers I believe now would be about probably 150. We are probably talking at least 180 and maybe even 200 feet in length. AN RON.

MEMBER: Big ships, big ships, big ships. MR.~ SPEAKER: I previously indicated I would recognize the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir next, followed by the hon. member for Fortune-Hermitage and Conception Bay South. MR. Sill10NS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the•President of Treasury Board, if I can get his attention. MR. DOODY: You have my undivided attention. MR.. SIMMONS : Thank you, to the minister. Mr. Speaker, yesterday if you recall I raised the matter involving an out-of-court - settlement by Lab Liner, today he has confirmed the @Ssence of what I said on the subject.

I wonder would h~ now indicate to the House·. , to his knowledge,why the contractor who - -initially was awarded the contract was not the lowest bidd~r? Were there any paricular circumstances? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: That, Mr. Speaker, is one of the difficulties I have had. Since the question was raised in the House I have ;pent -quite a lot of time in consultation with the people at Linerboard, and with others. The management people who were in _-authority there at the time are no longer there.

The contract itsel~ you know,has been settled out of court because it was not in the interests of Linerboard to continue the contract and to pay 2238

March 8, 1977 Tape No. 815 , NM- 2 MR. DOODY: the commitments that had been made on the contract. I have been told by the people out there that to the best of their knowledge a tender hac been called. But I have not. been able as yet, since that time period, to get the detail on it. As I say most of the management people who were involved arP. no longer with the company and t~is_may be one of the reasons why they are not with the company.

The claim, or the law suit tha·t was brought against the company for this particular contract was in the nature of $949,000 and the comp~ny settled out of court on advice of its lawyers for something around $400,000, I think is the number. The hon. member raised the question about why this particular contractor had gotten the contract despite the fact that his was no~ the lowest bid and why he was primarily in the - and do not misunderstand me but I think this was the subject.- was prfmarily in the school bus business and was not primarily a woods contractor?

That question I have sent forward to the company and have not gotten a reply that I can supply to the House. It does appear that there was indeed, in terms of the contract itself, it appears that we entered into', or at least Linerboard entered into, while it was not a contract that was in the best interest of Linerboard and on the advice of Council they settled o~t· of cour~you know1 for something less-· than half of the claim that was tendered against them. As I say the management people who were there at that time are no lqnger there.

As for the tender part of it, which is a kind of a separate thing, I am not in a position to answer that because I just do not have the information at this time. But I have asked for it and they have - the new management of Linerboard are trying to fin·d it for me and get it for me and,you know~! will suppl~ it if it is available. If it is not available then I will have to say that it is not available. MR. SIMMONS: A supplemeatary. Z239

Ma:rch_ 8 , 19 77 Tape 816 IB-1 MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary:? ____ . the original questioner. ~r. Speaker, I thank the hon. minister for undertaking to get the information if it is available and I will look forward to getting it ~.;rhen he can make it available. A supplementary. To his knowledge was the government or the Board of Directors of Linerboard either consulted before the out-of-court settlement was made or was the decision to make the out-of-court settlement approved by either the board or government? ~. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MF..

DOODY: There is no· question about that at all, Your Honour. ~~en the details of the contract were brought forward from management to the Board of Directors of Linerboard and the details of the negotiations were brought forth, then the lawyers opinion:.: our legal counsel or the legal couns·el of Linerboard advised us that Lab Linerboard had indeed entered into a contract which was not beneficial to the company and indeed it would be most unwise for us to proceed with it in court and it would be most advantageous to the company to settle out of court.

Then we as the directors of the company advised the management to accept the legal opinion that was offered us and to settle for it out of court. AN RON. MEMBER: Who gave you' the legal opinion? ¥R. DOODY: James Greene is the _ lawy~~ for Linerboar~. James J. Greene, Q.C. ~"-R. SIWONS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: ~ supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker,the minister .a couple of times in answering the questions has alluded to the unsatisfactory nature of the original contract. Could he indicate to the House whether there was anything partic~larly unusual about this contract?

Was it a fairly standard ····· ' type of contract that Linerboard entered into with transportation contractors or are there p.articular circumstances about the contract that particularly bother the board or bother the minister? 'fv'R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. ~-· DOODY: What bothers the Board and bothers the minister is the fact that we could not find an escape clause in the contract, you know, 2240

March 8, 1977 Tape 816 IB-2 MF .• OOODY: which is a callus way to say it but from a business point of view I guess that is a_reas~nable and legitimate answer. I think that the original contract was entered into under a standard contract form that was available at the mill at that time.

And the people who were in authority of that particular part of the ndll took it as standard and did not take legal counsel., did not take advice and did not try to insert various escape clauses or escalating clauses or clauses that might give them reason,in the event that the wood would not be necessary,' in the event that lower cost wood could be found, so on and so forth. So the gentleman with whom the contract was entered into with had good and ~le cause_J:o pursue his case and there was no question about that. There is no question about, in my mind at this point, the impropriety.

I do not think there is any1 at least as far as I know, at this point. The other point that you raised yesterday about the school buses and so on, the tenders and so on, that is another point ~nich we will look into later and is being looked into now.

But as for the contract itself,· it appeared to be a contract that was entered into in good faith by both parties and it would seem that one of the points that the hon. member did raise yesterday which might perhaps add some credence to the- I go back to the school,bus theory because that is what hit me was the fact that - I do not want ·to give a'speech, but I would really like to elaborate on this if it is permissable·~ MR. NEARY: You are getting yourself in deeper all the time • . MR. DOODY: I am not trying to get in deeper. I am trying to tell the Rouse the facts. MR. SP&\..KEP.: Order, please! MR.

DOODY: --~is--the fact that the contractor to whom the contract was given to-ok--the Linerboard contract and brought it to the companies who supply equipment and used it as - which is normal practice - as 2241.

~farch 8, 1977 Tape 816 IB-3 MR. DOOJW: security to buy a lot of equipment. This is what raised his suit or su~~e_ o~ what have you, in l~g~ te~s,agai.J.lst ~he _compaDy, or both, up to almost $1 million, $949,000 was the amount of the lawsuit that was taken against; the company. And the reason for it was not necessarily the amount of profit that he would have gained but the amount of liability that he had brought _ ~ga~st_ himself on , the assurance that he was ·going to be able to handle ali ___ th:i.s - wood~)o he I • • ~ - - - - -. - • . - •. • had a $949,000 contract which he settled for out of court for some $400,000 or something in that area. Z242

March 8, 1977 Tape No. 817 NM- 1 MR. DOODY: As I said this was all done very hurriedly this morning and I had hoped to get more information and so on. MR. SPEAKER: The Quest~on_Period has now expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: Motion 1. MOtion~the hon• the Minister of Industrial and Rural Development to introduce a bill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adopt A Certain Agreement Entered Into Between The Government And Burgeo Fish Industries Limited And Others." (Bill No. 25) On motion Bill No. 25 read a first time, ordered ~ead a second time on tomorrow. MR.. SPEAKER: Order 1.

The adjourned debate on the amendment to the Address in Reply. The hon. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear! Hear! MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, in the few minutes I had to begin this debate yesterday evening I started my remarks by making reference to the negative kick that the'government appears e to have been on right from the beginning of this: ·session, right from the very first day that the Throne Speech was read. And in my remarks I was attempting to outline why we on this side ox the House are not going to buy that type of argument, Sir.

We have a right to be critical when we feel'Ye ought to and we will offer posit-ive suggestions-~hen ~~ f~~l we ought to do that. Now I sort of suggested yesterday, Sir, and I will say again that we in this Province at thi~ particular time do iioi: hav:e too much to be a little ~ _~olloq~al -· we do not have too much to sing about, -D~spite the rosy pictures that we heard -~- tell of a year or so ago in September 6f 1975 and magnified and exemplified again in the three by-elections of last Fall)we still do not have, Sir, too much to sing _about or too much to be proud about in this Province.

And I would submit that the administration

l.farch 8, 1977 Tape No. 817 NM- 2 MR. RIDEOUT: does not have that much to sing about either. We know promises were made. Last Winter we went through that, Sir, in this first session of this Legislature. And at the end I think, or abo~t the middle of the session, towards the end we were beginning to clutch the fact that promises had been made that the government knew never could have been kept. We were about to become a little bit more statesmanlike and to accept the -- fact that it was made in political wisdomlor lack thereof, and to look at the gre~ter good of the Province.

But, Sir, what added insult to injury were the by-elections. Then.·: along came the by-elections,after we had sort of forgotten what happened a year ago 1 after we had attempted to shrug our shoulders and be a little bit of a statesman and push_it off as political windbag or something of that" nature>then along came the by-elections, slapped us right in the face ~gain and could only add insult to injury to that which we had:attempted to forget last Winter. All the Winter long, Sir, the story in the House was no money.

All Winter long after the AlB . .; -· . .,.: came into effect and the Premier:clutched on·to it like it was ' the last straw that this administration could ever find to clutch on to, ' ~ter that there was restraint, after that there was retrenchment.

That was the story all Winter long, and after the mini-budget.and -ihe" b~C!se~ - we were- · begirin~ng·-~o bu~- ~t; ·we--were not saying that much about it.B~t--then we weat along our merry ways shortly after the 11th. of June to begin campaigning in -~ by-elections, ,and , I can tell youpSir, that there was no such thing as retrenchment in three districts in this Province. I am not blaming that on individual candidates. Government has ' ' to bear the blame for that. There was no such thing as no money, or retrenchment or restraint in a couple of the district~- that I campaigned in.

Last year we could not afford this, - ~e could not afford that. Water

March 8, 1977 Tape. No. 817 NM - 3 MR. RIDEOUT: and sewer systems were forgotten about. Government recognized the need they said, but they just did not have the money. Projects were shelved but then in the by~elections we saw no ·-- .. - - - ~ - . - - --- ·- - . evidence of that. Now1 of _course,if we talk about that, Sir, ' we are neg~tive. The great theme of the Throne Speech was let us not be negative. That was the theme.

But yet we are expected, I suppose, on this side of the House, ;-·the people we represent in our districts who saw what happened only three or four months after one election in~he by-elections the people having se·en all that the government still expects us to say nothing and if we do we are negative. Well, Sir, that is not good enough. We are not going to buy that. The truth is going to be told. And if the truth hurts then let it be so. 2245

:March 8, 1977 Tape 818 PK - 1 Mr. R. Rideout: We heard tell of blueberry industries in Bonavista North. We saw hundred dollar bills passed out at bingo games. We saw pavement passing along in the district of Exploits going up the road and then ther.e is a gap and no houses, then it stops and picks up where the next line of houses begin. We saw all that kind of stuff. We saw it personally. But then Lwhen we talk about it, Sir, we are negative. -- - Well, Sir, I would submit !~a~ - ~at _ is a sure si~ _ that this administration is hurting. It is a sure sign that this administration is on the· defensive.

It is a sure sign that the truth hurts. Well if the truth hurts that is too bad. Now the government had the Minister of Mines and Energy lead off on its defence in this particular non-confidence motion.

I suppose the government_,c_. the~ad!D.ini~tia~ion, the -Premier, s~ebody figu_red that~ the Minister of Mines and Energy could put up the best defence possible~ The Leader of the Opposition had spoken for a· number of hours and had ripped into the government right, left and centre, and rightly so, - ~-g; up they would send the Minister of Mines and Energy in their main defensive thrust. ·so they must have obviously had faith in the gentleman's ability to defend the government, .. · -~d we were sort of anxiously waiting on this side to hear that defence. We had told our story.

Our leader had outlined things as we saw them, and we were waiting for the great defensive thrust from the government side of the House. Sorry to say, Sir, it never did materalize. I have read the minister's speech now. two or three times in ~ preparation for a few remarks I would make today, and I could only t _erm the speech ._.l,.. _ . a flop. There was nothing defensive in it, nothing defensive whatsoever.

I do not know if any of the arguments put forth by the Leader of the Opposition that were sort of refuted-or thrawn down the drain or could . . . not be reargued again by the facts presented by the Minister of Mines and Energy. 2246

March 8, 1977 Tape 818 PK - 2 Mr. Rideout: The minister started of his speech by going into an English teacher's assessment, I suppose, of the speech by the Leader of the Opposition, and he ended . up saying that the Leader of the Opposition would get an F. But it my contention, Sir, that the Minister of Mines and Energy would also have gotten an F if his speech had to ~e analyzed under the . same conditions.

Now then the main speaker for the government, Sir, with all the resources that the government has in the various ' ~ - - - - · ..,. -- I departments, the Cabinet Secretariat down there and,I suppose 1 hundreds or thousands of civil servants to feed them information, all those people feeding information to the minister in this great defensive thrust to get the Leader of the Opposition to refute the allegations that the leader had made, out ' of all that the minister did not even , have his facts straight.

He started off about the Conference Board of Canada and stupid me, I suppose, I never heard tell of it before I and I ·asked the minister what the Conference Board of Canada was and his sort of snarky reply was,~ell I will go into an economics class with you • • ~r-~ :. ____ -·· ··well I have done some. research on my own and I now know a bit about the Conference Board of Canada. I know,number one, that the ministerS facts were not facts. I have reason to believe that the minister may have known they were not facts.

The minister stated that the Conference Board of Canada forecast a 4.3, ! ' believe it was, 4.3 per cent growth in this province this year. Those figures, I have information from the Conference Board of Canada telling me, were revised at the end of January.

The minister did not speak in this House until whatl the middle of February or sometime around that date, so there was ample opportunity for those figure~ if by some chance they had been fed to him wrongly, .- -tohave been · corrected by that time. --Yet - ·again, Sir, _ the rosy figure was used, the 4.3 per cent was used because it was greater than anything else in the Atlantic Provinces. j~_~aus·e : they could compare with Alberta, because they could compare with Ontario the 4.3 per cent was used and not the real figure, 2247

March 8, 1977 Tape 818 JM- 3 MR. RIDEOUT: Sir. The real figure as revised by the Confe.rence Board of Canada is now 2.9 per cent econom;ic growth in Newfoundland and they revised that, as I indicated to the House, in the latter part . , . of January ~ ample oppQrtunity,as the minister did not speak unttl r .· ---- the middle of February·;·yet those rosied, little rosier figures of 4.3 per cent were used. The minister laid great stress on the Conference Board of Canada. Oh, they were workers of great things. They could provide great statistics. I have every reason to believe that the statistical data of the Conference Board of Canada :i.s not all that accurate anyway when it comes to 2248

¥.arch 8, 1977 Tape 819 IB-1 MR. RIDEOt'IT: judging the economic growth of Canada, especially Newfoundland because of the various factors involved. And while the minister was making those particular statements to the House- again 'Which is the old story of this administration, Sir, do not tell it as it is tell them as we would like it to be- as the minister was making those allega.tions to the House his colleague, the Minister of Finance; was talking to the Globe And ?~ail in Toronto and saying, .

Oh well it may be two per cent or something slightly thereunder. ; You know, contradiction again from one minister- to _the other. not us::f,ng the p_roper facts vet the facts had been available to us from the end of January. If they .. are available to the lowly Opposition, I suppose, it is logical to assume they would be available to the Minister of ~~ines and Energy who was to be the lead-off speaker, the great defender, the defensive player in this particular debate for the government. That was not so. The wrong facts were used.

The wrong information was given and no attempt given to refute it until we bring it up from this particular side. But I suppose, Sir, again an inaccurate . pic¥ur-e ~of the economic growth of this Province was shown. My colleague from Lewisporte (Mr. White) pointed out, -No word from the government on it yet. I am pointing it out again. But I suppose we are negative because we are doing that, Sir. That is the way we will be branded· now. I can just hear when I sit down somebody getting up and the negative moans coming from the Government side.

But as I said earlier, Sir, the truth needs to be told and the truth according to the figures is that the economic growth in this Province will be 2.9 per cent, not 4.3 per cent as presented to the House by the Minister of Mines and Energy. Now the minister used another great statistical piece of data to indicate the economic growth in this Province. He very proudly said,and rightly so, I agree with him, ·;;Re~id~ntial-- iilve .stment,he said, is up by twenty-one per cent in this Province." So it is, Sir. But if you say that you must also look at the other side of the coin. 2249

March 8, 1977 Tape 819 IB-2 MR.. RIDEOUT: Again, paint the _ rosy pic;ure. D~ not tell the d.ark side of it. Let the Opposition do that and then we will call them negative. That is the strategy. The minister did not say, he failed to say, Sir, did not make any mention of the mortgage defaults we have in this Province. I have reason to believe that mortgage defaults in this Province are at a higher rate than every before in our recent history, the last ten or twelve years. What is that an indication of Sir? It is an indication of unemployment.

It is an indication that people ate out of jobs., It is an indication that people do not have money to pay their mortgages. Yet the minister could get up and glowingly look at the twenty-one per cent investment figures. ~.Jell we can invest all we like and builders can invest all they like but when the little fellow cannot meet his mortgageJlike the people out in Come By Chance right now, then what is the good of the investment? It is a great indicator for a minister to look at but we also must look at what happens when those people cannot pay that mortgage and they get turfed out on the street.

We have seen more of that my sources have told me than we have in the last ten or twelve years in this Province. tihat is the government's answer to it all, Sir? The government's answer is a $2 million make work programme. I would not quarrel with that too much, $2 million is better than no dollars '!;\'hen we have a fantastically high unemployment rate in this Province. But when I look at the list and see the - you know, you will be negative, you will be called negative-but when I look at the list and see PC, PC, PC, PC, PC and four Liberal districts in that list, what am I to think?

What are my constituents to think? ~~at is this Province - to think? Are the only great unemployment areas in this Province represented by gentlemen on the other side of the House? I would submit not, Sir. Englee in my area is as accute an unemployment center as you will find anywhere in this Province particularly - and if the minister . ,< 2250

March 8, 1977 Tape No. 819 IB - 3 MR.. RIDEOUT: of Social Services would look at his case-load down there or look at my files with the letters I get from that area, he would realize it - particularly from September up until the Fisheries start the next year. I did not see a project approved for Englee. As I said I do not know how many were approved but it must be twenty-five or thirty, I saw four in Liberal districts. A $2 million political make work programme is a better title to put on it, Sir. That is a better title.

People were rewarded or ridings were rewarded on . the colour of the candidate who happened to be elected in that riding. That is no answer to the unemployment problem in the Province. The Minister of Mines and Energy in replying for the government · was critical of LIP, and again I would agree with him. In many cases he has every right to be critical of LIP. But he least we can say for LIP, Sir, is that it is not all done on a political basis. The colleague of those gentlemen opposite representing the district of Humber-St. George's-St. Barbe, I believe, has the highest allocation of 2251.

March 8, 1977 Tape no. 820 MR. RIDEOUT: LIP money of any constituency in Newfoundland. AN HON. MEMBER: He is on the right side of the House. MR.. RIDEOUT: He is not on the government side of the House. But the federal government in the way they have set it up recognized the great unemployment need in that particular area. NM- 1 MR.. WOODROW: MR.. RIDEOUT: Well incidentally he is a very hard worker. That has got a lot to do with it, Sir. I will come to that a little later. The criteria should be the jobless rate, Sir, not the political colours of districts and that is what happened in a lot of those cases.

I see it so blatantly in the cases put forward by the Social Services Department. I am not saying that the areas they went into did not need the projects. What I am saying is there could have been a fairer distribution. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear! Hear: MR. RIDEOUT: Does Grand Falls need ski-doo trails? How high is the Social Services case load in Grand Falls~ I would like to see it compared with Englee. I would like to see it compared with a lot of other communities in rural districts represented by this side of the House. I will bet we are negative when we say that kind of stuff. MR. FLIGHT: Or Windsor. MR.

RIDEOUT: Or Windsor or a number of other areas. But you are negative when you point that out •. Oh you are chewing the heart and blood out of every Newfoundlander when you get up and you criticize this $2 million works programme. That is the reaction of the government. But if we did not have something to criticize, Sir, we could not be critical could we? Every M.P. in Ottawa, no matter what the political colour of his district is, whether it be Tory or Liberal or NDP has Z252

March 8, 1977 Tape No. 820 NM- 2 MR. RIDEOUT: a crack at LIP money, so much is allocated to them. Now I do not expect $25 million or $30 million in a province this size with the problems that we have, but it could be done in a better way. There could be a fairer distribution of that money. It could be distributed more equitably among the districts where the needs are greater. Now the minister also, in defending the government made some reference to the fact that we.were critical of the government's programme in the fisheries. The minister said, "Thank God we mentioned the fisheries in the Throne Speech.

Thank God it was mentioned~" That was his response to our criticism. But, Sir, mentioning it is just not enough. We have got to have some action in the fisheries. It is not enough to hear about it. Fisheries in this Province, Sir, face great challenges. Where are the governments programmes to face those challenges? That is what the fishermen want to know. I would submit that the Minister of Fisheries has found that out loud and clear as he went around the Province in those fisheries meeting that he held from district to district. Where is the $40 million dragger programme?

Is it negative, Sir, to ask about it1 I mean after all it was a legitimate pledge of this administration. It has not materialized so is it negative now to ask about it~ Where is the $40 million dragger programme1 Is it negative to ask, Mr. Speaker? ~Howwould that effect the catching capabili _ty (;f Newfoundland fishermen today if we had that $40 million dragger fleet in operation1 Is it negative to ask about that?

How would it fit into the joint venture policy as enunciated and outlined by this present government, this $40 million dragger fleet' Good questions I would thitik-. - -:(do not - thf~k .thev are ne2ativt!. ---- - ---- Th~ Minister of Fisheries, Mr. Speaker, has been going around the Province for the last three or four months hearing from the fishermen. Where are the answers? There is a great fisheries ~253

March 8, 1977 Tape no. 820 NM- 3 MR. RIDEOUT: conference coming up the later part of the Spring but do 1-1e have to wait for that'? Will the fishing season be over before we get some answers'? The minister has been touring the Province since sometime last Fall and, Sir, that is another·story. Those tours that the Minister of Fisheries and his officials are taking around this Province.

I do not know about in Tory districts, I cannot vouch for that, Sir, but I can say there was no notice to the Liberal MBA for Baie Verte-White Bay that the minister was going to be holding a fisheries meeting in LaScie, and when I turned up there, by chance,! happened to notice on the agenda that there would be a few opening remarks by the area MBA, or some other local dignitary. That is the notice I had of the great fisheries meeting to be held in LaScie. I am not concerned about the problems of the fishery in my district I suppose.

That would be the logical conclusion to draw from this great defender and great enthusiast of the fishing industry in this Province. Then1 of course,they cancelled the first meeting in LaScie. It was supposed to be held on a particular date, the minister could not come and it was cancelled. I never heard anything about that. I was not ~nvited. The manager of the fish plant was not invited. You know does the fishing operators have any input into those meetings'? Should they have any input? Are' they not as vital a part of the fishing industry of this Province as are fishermen?

You cannot have one without the other. Now granted the fishermen may have more problems~ but certainly the fish plant operators~ Sir, may see some solutions too. 2254

March 8, 1977 Tape 821 JM- 1 MR. RIDEOUT: Now a plant manager in LaScie turned up, thank heavens but he was not invited. I understand they are not going to be inviting any plant managers or plant people to the great conference in St. John's next S~ring or this Spring. It is just a half-edged way of doing things. That is the great plan the government has for the fisheries. I hope something comes out of it. The minister certainly must be hearing from the fishe~en. He is meeting with them and let us hope some action comes from these stories that the fishermen are telling t~~- :- MR.

SMALLWOOD: Would the bon. member permit me a moment? Could he say when such a conference is held around the province, any officers there may be there of the Fishermen~Union are invited to attend? MR. RIDEOUT: I am speaking, Sir, of the conference in LaScie and I ........ .-.. know that the manager of the plant in LaScie was not invited. MR.. SMALLWOOD: - -. . - ·,· No, no, officers of the Fishermens Union. MR. RIDEOUT: Were they invited? MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes. MR. RIDEOUT: I , do not know.

I could not say about the union but I know the management people were not in my particular area and I do not know about union officials. I Sir, my bon. colleague from LaPoile made some remarks a few days ago about the bureaucracy that governs this province and I . must say, Sir, I have every reason to agree with him. I am wondering if the Minister of Fisheries answers his correspondence any morea It must have been a month and-a-half ago I sent the minister a telex on storm damages- oh, more than that before Christmas- and I have not had a reply to that yet.

That is the great competent Minister of Fisheries that-we have, _tQe man that we are looking to. The least the minister could have done was acknowledged it. That is the least you would expect. I mean the Minister of Municipal Affairs, I have written him a lot of correspondence~- - -- I may get an acknowledgement from some of his staff but you get something. At least you know that 2255

March 8, 1977 Tape 821 JM- 2 MR. RIDEOUT: _ f.~_)!"· · :r.n the minister's office and somebody sometime or somewhere it may get across the minister's desk again. But the Minister of !~she~~es, no acknowledgement at all from a telegram sent sometime before Christmas. I know the government had a bad experience with the compensation for storm damages in this province, Sir, I know that and I do not expect them to jump into another one the next day but certainly some attention could be paid to that. What is the government's answer at the moment?

This new subsidy programme, if a fisherman had an excellent year last year he may get $400.00 or $500.00 subsidy. That is what the average fisherman in my district will get. So it is government by bureaucracy, Sir. Sir, I am also concerned about the lack of specific reference in the Throne Speech about the government's action plan to protect the industrial health and safety of workers in this province. I attended the conference that was held here last fall. I think it was a good start.

There is an ad interim, I understand 1 an Interim Advisory Committee now appointed that is going to look into this whole problem and make recommendations, I would assume, to government that will later be implemented, we hope. Notice that I said an Interim Advisory Committee. I suppose that its recommendations will later on have to be studied by the proper advisory .comlili.ttee. We never know. It is government by task force. It is government by study we have been seeing in this province the last four or five years, Sir. I hope it does not happen in this very serious field of industrial health.

I hope the interim - MR. ROUSSEAU: So now you know how important it is. MR.. RIDEOUT: Exactly we know how ~portant it is. This Interim Advisory eouncil,I hope,will make recOmmendations that will be acted on immediately. As soon as the minister and the Cabinet have time to study these recommendations I hope they will be implemented. I hope they will be· acted on and not 'shelved and not waited until the

March 8, 1977 Tape 821 JM- 3 MR. RIDEOUT: _pr._oper permanent advisory committee is set up to have another look at them.. We do not have to go very far, Sir, to get information. The Hann Report,as the minister well knows in Ontario, has a lot of recommendations in it that are very applicable to this province and especially in his own situation in Labrador City and Wabush and in my situation in Baie Verte and others around this province. We can take page for page out of that report and apply it to our own particular situation. I am concerned about it.

I have a private members motion on the order paper that shows our concern and I believe it makes some positive suggestions. You cannot be critical for that I hope. I think the private members' resolution that I have on the order paper positively outlines our feelings and our thoughts on it and I hope it will come up for debate 2257

March 8, 1977 Tape 822 IB-1 ~. RIDEOUT: later on in this particular session. The little off colouring of that, Sir, is the present situation that exists as far as road dust problems are concerned on various roads linking communities on the Baie Verte Peninsula. Unfortunately we cannot say too much about the problem at the moment because we do not have any report from Dr. Selikoff who carried out a study down there last year. It was rather unnerving, ¥r. Speaker, to learn from the minister that he had,or his department had}some samples carried out and they showed nothing.

Now the preliminary stud~ or the preliminary report>released to the union by Dr. Selikoff did not say that. The minister in a letter to some constituents in that area who had signed a petition did not say anything. He said Inconclusive. I could buy that. I could buy inconclusive. Maybe the chemistry equipment that we have up here at the university is not as complicated and maybe would not readily pick up the type of material that the Selikoff Mount Sinai School of Medicine would have.

I could buy inconclusive but I cannot buy it when the minister stands in his place in response to my question and says,Nothing ~ the report shows nothing. There may be a good reason it showed nothing or, very little, Sir. I would like to know when the dust samples were taken, number one. I would like to know where they were taken. I would like to see a map of those roads saying, It was taken here, there and somewhere else. - There were seventeen taken the minister said. I would like to know when they were taken because most of that road was covered with new gravel early last Summer.

Would that be a reason there was very little showed up in it? Somebody has to have answers. Dr. Selikoff's dust samples were taken in June before any regravelling of the road was done. It is something to consider, Sir, before we brush off the report) or brush off the samples that the minister's department had taken, it is something to consider before we brush these off and say there is no problem or brush them off and say they are inconclusive. We should know exactly what we

¥arch 8, 1977 Tape 822 IB-2 MR. RIDEOUT: are talking about, w~ are playing with the lives of people. There are 200 or 300 school children driving the road every day. He are talking about that kind of stuff. You can get emotional about it I know but you can talk about it and badger the government about it and then you are negative. That is the type of reaction you get. So, ¥.r. Speaker, I w:Hl be interested to see- I would like to hav.e the minister table some sort of a map of those roads sho~ing us exactly where the dust samples were taken and when they were taken.

That is a very importan~ question, Sir, when they were taken because there was some gravel placed on that road in various places and we would not want it to be said, would we, that those samples were new gravel~ Of course you would not expect to find asbestos dust in it, would you, especially when it came from Flat Waters twenty miles up the road. Mr • . Speaker, I want to make a few ·comments in the bit of time I have left about the Labrador Linerboard situation as it applies to my district. In the Fall of 1975, Sir, the bon. John C.

Crosbie turned up in the Roddickton area - campaigning on behalf of the Tory candidate. We all know who that was and we all know what happened. But just before that one contractor named }~lcolm Hodges Limited had gone bankrupt leaving owing in the community of Roddickton $35,000 to $40,000 in bad checks. ¥r. Grosbie turned up with his assistant at the time, I believe it was a chap named Cochrane>or who worked for the Linerboard or he had something to do with Mr.-- Crosbie~- - - and the problem was going to be solved. The government - Mr. Crosbie we remember, Mr.

Speaker, was Chairman of the Board of Directors of Lab Linerboard. Mr. Crosbie sat down with the fifteen people whose names I - I do not know if I have here or down in my office - sat down with them and with his assistant and · I believe the candidate also, No sweat. l~en I go back to St. John's now we will have a look at this situation. Either Lab Linerboard or the government will make good those checks. That is a commitment, is it not, Mr. Speaker, .if ever I heard of one? I ~259

}fa.rch 8, 1977 Tape 822 MR . RIDEOUT: was not involved in the situation even for sfx or seven months after I got elected because the people that the hon. ·gentleman had met with were expecting him to keep his promise. ~- · DOODY: Would the hon. gentleman permit a question? 'MP .• RIDEOUT: Yes I would, sure. IB-3 MR . DOODY: My understanding of that situation is that Linerboard had alr~ady paid ¥r. Rodge's for the wood and it was his bankruptcy - MR. RIDEOUT: The minister·i~ _ ~xactly right in his understanding as was' Mr. Crosbie. Mr,. Crosbie knew that ¥Alcolm Hodges was paid for the wood. But yet Mr. Crosbie 22130

March 8, 1977 Tape No. 823 NM- 1 MR. RIDEOUT: for political gain I suppose -is it negative to say that, Mr. Speaker ?·for political gain promised to set that situation straight. The rovernment or Labrador Linerboard would pick up that debt. That was the promise that was , made to the people of Roddickton and that was the promise they expected the bon. gentleman to keep. But no way, Sir. After I became involved in it last Fall, in September : or October I got in touch with the bon. minister who is now President of the Board. I suppose I should expect him to observe the commitments made by his predecessor.

It is $35,000 or $40,000 that probably could have been knocked off this agreement that my colleague from Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) referred to yesterday. There are people in the town of Roddickton suffering today because of that debt. Roddickton is l,ZOO_or 1,400 people. a debt of $35,000 or $40,000, Sir, hangs over the heads of those people for a long time. I do not have enough time remaining this evening to go into any detail on it;, but I ~ope to get back on it later in the main motion 1 in the budget or something. Those people were led down the garden path, Sir.

They were led down the garden path by the then Minister of Mines and Energy, by the then Chairman of the Board of Directors of Labrador Linerboard, for what reason? For a few votes for Desi Sullivan. That is the only conclusion I can draw. That is the only conclusion the people of Roddickton can draw. That is not good enough, Sir. That is not good government. How do you expect to have confidence in a government that will send Ministers of the Crown out around and deal that way? We are not expected to criticize that type of thing I suppose. We are not expected to be critical, if we are we are negative.

For those are the iealings that were dealt to the good people of Roddickton. If the minister had said, "Look I will look at it. I do not know if \ 2231.

March 8, 1977 Tape No. 823 NM - 2 MR. RIDEOUT: there is anything we can do about it. But we will certainly have a look at it. We will get after Malcolm Hodges Limited for you or something." I mean that was fair enough. But to say that, "We will make those debts good, either the government or Lab Linerboard," and then have a letter come back from Mr. Cochrane, October of last Fall, a year and what?- a year and a month after the election saying, "We have looked at it all but sorry folks we c~nnot do nothing for yo.u." MR.

DOODY: I do not mean to interrupt, with your permission again, is there some record of a commitment? MR. RIDEOUT: I can have fourteen people swear affidavits. MR. DOODY: Yes. I see. Okay. MR. RIDEOUT: Is that record enough! There were no meetings kept of the 'meeting as far as I know. I asked that question but the people)! think 7will be prepared to do what is necessary •. MR. FLIGHT: MR. RIDEOUT: MR. FLIGHT: MR. RIDEOUT: Terrible. Terrible. I So, Mr. Speaker, that is the record. Political patronage. Ministers, especially the great lead off in the debate from the other side d~d not use the proper information.

I am not saying anything one way or the other but it certainly was not the proper information. The yroper information was available but no update was made on it. And yet we are expected not to be critical. We are expected to give the government a pat on the back and say, "Carry on boys. You are doing a good job." The Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker, page two, the ringing words of John Kennedy I suppose or some great orator like that it came from. It says, "Let this call go forth today from this bon. House and let it be heard throughout the land." That is the call fo_r hard work, the call for productivity.

You could swear you could hear the drums, Sir, up in the gallery. "Let the call go forth from this hon. House. Well I say, Sir, let the truth go forth from this hon. House. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!

March 8 ,19 77 Tape No. 823 NM-3 MR.. RIDEOUT : Let the truth go forth that this government is the most incompetent administration that ever ran this Province. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Rear,hear! MR. RIDEOUT:Let the truth go forth that decisions of this government are based on political expediency. Example; a $2 million works programme. Let that truth go forth. MR. _MORGAN: Roll the drums. MR. RIDEOUT: Roll the drums? The drums could have rolled to the Thron Throne Speech, that is where it came from. ~-·-- MR.

RIDEOUT: Let the truth go forth, Sir, that this government is presiding over the economic· collapse of this Province. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR.. RIDEOUT: That is exactly what is happening. Let the word go forth that the jobless rate in this Province is the worst in decades and then they call us to harder work, more productivity. How can you have harder work, Sir, when a poor, old fellow '· has not got _ ~ 1ob to work at? How can you be more productive when there is no work? Yet they say let the word go forth. Let the truth go forth I say. Government has no idea about development of our resources, Sir.

They get up and they talk in platitudes and they talk around in circles but we are no closer to developing ottr resources than we were five years or six years ago when they took over. Let · the truth go forth again

}fa.rch 8, 19 77 Tape 824 IB-1 ¥R. RIDEOlJT: that this government have presided over the doubling of our provincial debt in five years, and what do we show for it( Let that truth go forth. MP.. S}1'.ALLWOOD: Not doubling, tripling. YR. RIDEOUT: Tripling, okay. What do ~ll'e sho-.;.r for it? At least we could show something for the first twenty-three years in Confederation when ~~ had a debt of seven hunrlr~d and something million dollars. We could show so~ething for it then. What have we shown in the tripling of that in the last sL~ -years?

Let that truth go forth and let the truth go forth that this government has failed to initiate action to solve the problems of Labrador Linerboard, especially the sad problem that I just referred to in B.oddickton. Sir, that is the failure of this administration. That is why -.;.ye have no confidence in the administration. And instead of the words of the Throne Speech let the word go forth, I say, Sir, let the truth go forth. S01AE HON. ~M3ERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKE'R: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to congratulate my colleague from Baie Verte-White Bay (¥r.

Rideout) for that fine speech he has made here this afternoon. SO¥E RON • ¥E1ABEP.S : Hear, hear! 'f.m. ROWE: He has been in this hon. House for only two years. Is that right? AN RON • }'E}ffiEF. : ene and-a-half. MR. ROWE: One and-a- half. I felt ltke a seasoned politician having been here for five and-a-half years but having heard that speech, ~ir, I still have a lot to learn. Quite frankly I cannot work up the enthusiasm that my colleague has worked up this afternoon. ~-· ~ORGAN: You are getting old. ~- · ROWE: Yes I am getting old, sick and tired of hearing that miserable, bon. crowd over there, Sir.

Trying to stimulate them, trying to get them worke~ up, trying to make them feel ashamed of

March 8, 1977 Tape 824 IB-2 ?-'F_. ROl-lE: themselves for the actions that they do in this Province and no response whatsoever. That is ~~y I am tired and sick and feeble and decrepit in this House. But, Sir, they got me off track already. I was about to congratulate the member for Exploits (Dr. Twomey) upon his election in that district and the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Cross) for his re-election during the by-election, for his achievement. And I was going to offer my congratulations to my departed brethren from Ferryland (Mr. O'Brien). I am sure he will be back here~ Sir, to be heard in this House again.

Sir, I would like to just speak very briefly - I do not ~,rant to go into any great de_Et~_. -on it because I am not the finance spokesman in this Opposition - but there is one thing that I cannot qu:tte figure out and that ~s this; that I have had occasion to bring a ~umber of de~~g~ti~ns in to meet the Premier, in to meet the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing and in to meet other various ministers and their officials in order to get a few decent public services such as just plain ordinary water and sewerage systems, and/or sewerage systems.

And, Sir, the excuse that 'is slowly being infiltrated into the people of this Province for not providing money for public services in this Province at the present time, slowly but subtly being diffused into the blood streams of the people of this Province is that it is going to be very difficult for this Province,to borrow money because of the recent election in Quebec, because of the recent election of the Separatist Government or the PQ Government with separate tendencies. But that has been the excuse that has been offered by the Premier.

I heard him himself in front of one delegation and I have heard other councils and other citizens who have come into the various departments of government here to try to get some money for next year's maintenance or construction programme in their small little communitiesythey wanted inc·orporation, being told, well,you ~now,it is a bit difficult because, you know, we do not have the money. It is more difficult to get money now because of the election of the PQ Government in Quebec. That is the excuse

March 8, 1977 Tape 824 IB-3 MR... ROW;_ _ _ that is being offered, Sir. AN RON. ~EP.: We have Alberta behind us now. MR. ROWE: Sir, is the PQ Government's existence really &king it_ d:t_ff~cult for this government to borrow money in this Province? MR. MORGAN: It will make it more costly for us. MR. ROWE: Okay, make it more costly and more difficult 226 6

.... - ·-··---··u••• • ••••' ,.. March 8, 1977 Tape No. 825 NM- 1 MR. ROWE: for this Province to borrow when a few weeks ago, Sir, the Minister of Finance himself announced - MR. DOODY: Who? MR. ROWE: I understand the minister does not recognize very many people, Sir, but if he cannot recognize himself he is to be pitied. MR. DOODY: I am sorry. I thought MR. ROWE: Yes, Sir, the hon. Minister of Finance said that he was able to borrow $50 million, this is not the Alberta loan now, $50 million on reasonable terms and without difficulty.

And more recently we have had the minister ar.nounce that he has borrowed privately- what do they call it? - MR. DOODY: Private placement. MR. ROWE: Private placement, another $50 million, $50 million from the Government of Alberta. And the minister,of course,said that that was on reasonable terms and we were prepared to argue for or against that to try to straighten that record out. Now, Sir, you cannot have it both ways.

You cannot have the Premier of the Province telling delegations and telling the poor people who take their own time and their own energy and their own money and they come in here as a delegation on behalf of the citizens they represent in the rural parts of our Province, you cannot have the Premier of this Province and some other ministers sayings, . Boys, look it is really desperate. It is really bad.

This crowd who just got elected in Quebec is making it more difficult, mo~e expensive for us to borrow. · These ministers cannot say that~ andthe Premier cannot say that,and the Minister of Finance cannot get up and say the exact opposite of it. He -- -- - ··- went out' whipped otf, got $50 million on "ree.sonable terms and without difficulty." Now you have got to have it one way or the other. You cannot have it both ways. - - - - - ---·-------The fact of the matter is, Sir - MR. SMALLWOOD: You cannot have it two ways, you can have two men.

March 8, 1977 Tape No. 825 NM- 2 MR. ROWE: You can have two men. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You cannot offer one excuse to the delegations whom some ministers may think are not that bright. And they are pretty astute characters in rural Newfoundlanders. MR. DOODY: So is your Godfather. MR. ROWE: Most of the councillors and people who work on local improvement districts,who have served their communities are every bit as smart and clever, and can see the writing on the wall - MR. MORGAN: And dedicated. MR. ROWE: - and dedicated.

Oh they are more dedicated , I than the hon. ministers ' across, Mr. Speaker, more dedicated, no doubt about that whatsoever. MR. MORGAN: Cannot shout it, eh? MR. ROWE: Now, Sir, the minister, you know here he goes again. His lips remind me of a rubber boat, Sir1 just cannot keep still. Cannot keep still at all. --- Cannot keep_ ·-still at all. Cannot k~ep quie~. Now if the minister wants me to relate a few little stories on his activities in one district of Trinity-Bay de Verde I will do so or he can maintain the silence.

Because I do not want to really get into it because it is too nasty. ---- -- -- ----- - - -~-~- --. MR. MORGAN: That is nothing but_ chea~ •. MR. ROWE: It is too nasty. --- -MR. MORGAN: That is nothing but cheao. MR. ROWE: You are damn right it is cheap on the part of the minister. It is very cheap what he tried to pull off in Old Perlican and Trinity - Bay de Verde, cheap indeed. If he wants to start snickering away across the floor - MR. MORGAN: Bren Howard would have -MR. ROWE: Bren Howard. Mr. Speaker, I was just waiting for that. Sir, there is an example of the activities of a Minister of the Crown.

This is something, Sir, that I was -

March 8, 1977 Tape No. 825 NM- 3 MR. ROWE: and I am prepared to table it- this is something, a letter that I wrote but did not send. Now I do not know if you can table something like that. MR. RICKMAN: No you cannot. You have got to sign it. MR. ROWE: I can sign it. And I can send it right today. MR. RICKMAN: Sign it first. MR. ROWE: Okay. Who has got a pen boys? AN RON. MEMBER: What is it? What is it? Now come on. MR. RICKMAN: Patience while he signs his letter. MR. ROWE: And what is the date? 1977, March the 8th.

Sir, I am only provoked into doing this because I knew the minister one of these days would get his tongue caught in the proverbial machine again. But the Minister of Transportation and Communications, - "Dear Premie~, I respectfully wish to register a complaint concerning the attitude and actions of one of your ministers, namely that of the Minister of Transportation .and Communications, Mr. James Morgan." --- -- ---· 22ii9

March 8, 19 77 Tape 826 JM- 1 MR. ROWE: Now, Sir, I did not send this letter because I had hoped that, you know,not antagonizing that certain minister, I would probably get more done for the district. I am going to show the province what kind of a minister that represents over there. uNdrmally I would simply make a press release concerning this matter however I feel that it is serious enough to war~ant this · letter to you as well as disclosure to the press;'t did not do that. <"Earlier this week I was asked by the mayor of the . Town Council of Bay de Verde, Mr.

Frank Blundon, to seek information pertaining to the use of the gravel pit in the area of Bay de Verde :• MR. MORGAN: Whose guilty? MR. ROWE: Well the Minister of Transportation should know if he is the minister of his department. vBriefly Mr. Bluudon, the mayor of Bay de Verde, informed me that a gravel pit near the school in Bay de Verde was being used by the Department of Transportation and Communications in spite of the fact that the council had erected a sign stating something to the effect that the gravel pit was not to be used. Mr.

Blundon say that the gravel pit was within the boundries of the town council.ee wished me to inquire as to whether or not the council had the power to halt the activities of the Department of Transportation and Communications. I attempted to contact the Minister of Transportation and Communications early Wednesday morning, September 1, 1976 and since his telephone line was busy I telephoned Mr. L.J. Penton, district administrator at Pleasantville and asked him to check into the situation. Later that day I received a telephone call from Mr. M.W.

Tulk, district director at Pleasantville and he informed me that the pit was on crown land. I asked Mr. Tulk what machine was being used and for what purpose the fill was' being used. He informed me that a dozer was brought in from Burnt Point and, that the fill was being used in the areas of Grates Cove and on the 0)- - - . Daniels Cove Road and on the old road to Old Perlican. He also 22'70

March 8, 1977 Tape 826 JM- 2 MR. ROWE: informed me that the work was being carried out based upon a petition from the people of Grates Cove • 11 That is fine and dandy but I never did see the petition by the way. ~At approximately 9:00 A.M. on Thursday, September 2, 1976, I telephoned the Minister of Transportation and Communications, Mr. James Morgan, with the intention of seeking further information pertaining to this matter.

I wished to ask him the status of the use of the gravel pit, what machinery was being used, where the fill was being placed and if he would be kind enough to provide me with .- a copy of the p~tition referred to by Mr. Tulk.But before I had an opportunity to finish the first question the Minister of Transportation and Communications interrupted to say that it is being taken care of. I asked Mr. Morgan by whom and how? "By Mr. Bren Howard, "said Mr. Morgan, the same gentleman he referred to in this hon. Rouse this afternoon. I asked, why and how, Mr. Speaker, and Mr.

Morgan replied, "Because I will do everything in .my power to defeat you and elect Bren Howard in the next election." I asked Mr. Morgan if he would repeat that statement with a witness on my line and, Sir, he did just that. Now, Sir, - MR. MORGAN: That : is the aim of all of us. MR. ROWE: Oh, that is the aim, is it? Well, Sir, I always thought that a minister of the Crown in a certain jurisdiction was responsible - MR. MORGAN: {Inaudible). MR. ROWE: You think that is funny, aye? MR. MORGAN: Table the letter. MR. ROWE: I will table the letter, yes. MR. MORGAN: Are you finished reading it? MR.

ROWE: No, I am not finished reading it because there were a few utterances that cannot be repeated here in the House. Now, Sir, the hon. Minister of Transportation does not have to tell me that I am in the game of politics and - MR. MORGAN: {Inaudible).

March 8, 1977 Tape 826 JM- 3 MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I will just ask for the right to be heard without the jabberings on of the hon. minister if you would so rule, please. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. gentleman would like to enforce his right to be heard without interruption. The bon. member! MR. ROWE: Now, I do not have to be reminded by the hon.

Minister of Transportation and Communications, Sir, that this is a political arena and that the aim of any party>if it wants to govern a province wants to fulfill its political philosophy, the aim of that party is to try to get in government and the aim of one candidate is to beat another candidate in an election.~ut, Sir, once a person is elected) particularly if he is a minister of the Crown,it is to represent every single person and every single district in this province fairly and squarely through the proper channels. Sometimes 2272

}farch 8, 1977 Tape 827 IB-1 ~. ROHE: the channel may be the MBA for the district. Sometimes the channel may be a Rural revelopment Association. Sometimes it may be a town council or it may be some other arm of government. But to hear something like this, Sir, a minister of the Crmm with a witness saying that he is having a certain Bren Howard do this because he will do everything in his power to defeat me in the next election.

I could hardly call that a non-partisan and fair treatment to the particular community concerned when they still did not know at that time, Sir, what the status of that gravel pit was which was being scooped out and used next to a school, two schools in fact _, and they could not get an answer from the minister. AN RON. ~.!E}ffiER: They will get it the next time. MR. RO't-1E: He will get the answer the next time right up - get the answer, Sir.

Now, Sir, I could get into another little dicey story when the Minister of Transportation and Communications - I have to leave here at quarter after five, I wish I was here to hear his rebuttal - but let me simply say this, Sir, that over one year ago on New Year's Eve . there was a tragedy in Old Perlican, the bu~~~- ~own of the fish plant in that community which employed - MR. MORGAN: Why do you not give us a story or something? ' :MR. ROWE: There is no great story to this one and the h?n. minister, Sir, has already made it public there is nothing to tell. '.

The only thing is the Minister of Fisheries did not know anything about it. But anyway, Sir, for a year and two or three months the ~ayor of Old Perlican and the council, myself and the Minister of Fisheries and 'the federal departments involved, DFEE and the Department of the Environment,and the o-.:mers of Ocean Harvesters have been desperately trying to get the fish plant rebuilt in Old Perlican. We had our hard words over it, harsh words, very harsh words at t~s -. There were times when the minister and myself both agreed to cool it and put a blackout on the news media as far as the negotiations 22\(3

}'arch 8, 1977 Tape 827 IB-2 MR. ROWE: that were going on were concerned. Sir, at the very time when we had a blackout imposed who should make a grandstand announcement from Old Perlican or Grates rove or Bay de Verde - I do not know from which community the release "'-r.lS made - but the Hinister of Highways announced to the utter amazement of the Minister of Fisheries 1 the Premier, the people of Old Perlican and myself that he had arrange~ t~ build a fish plant in Old Perlican. Host embarrassing to the government, Sir, and particularly to the Minister of Fisheries. No grounds to it whatso~ver.

I am going to call upon the Minister of Transportation now wherever lie is to table the travel allowance by car and aircraft of his executive assistant since the first day that he was appointed to that job, to table the travel log and in particular - I wish I could remember the exact date in question, I think it was so~etime around Easter but I can look up the date - I would like to know what the travel log of the helicopter that was chartered by the government was on this particular Sunday when the announcement was made by the Mi~ister of-T!ans~ortation and Communications. -Now if the minister, - Sir, was sincere in helping the people of Old Perlican in the jurisdiction of the Fisheries~which I do not know what he had to do with it anyway, but if he was sincere and honourable, I would suggest that the proper way to have discussed this so that it would come out in a positive manner and to some fruition lvould have been to consult with his own colleague, the Minister of Fisheries,with : ~ 2274

March 8, 1977 Tape No. 828 MR. ROWE: the MHA for the district and the owners of Ocean Harvesters possibly. But he got his publicity, he got his couple of days in lights, Sir, and he almost ended up paying for it. I do not know to this day how the Minister NM- 1 of Fisheries can still sit in the same Cabinet with the hon. gentleman. After all the harsh words I had to say about the Mini~ter of Fisheries up to that point, that was one of the few· times I felt sorry for the poor man, when he got the knife from his own colleague.

Now, Sir, all I am suggesting is that let the minister go about his own job in the jurisdiction of Transportation and Communications leave fishery matters to the Minister of Fisheries. Do not let partisan politics destroy what good he can for any part of this Province, be it Trinity - Bay de Verde. Fair gain, there is nothing wrong with the minister supporting a certain individual. MI.. MORGAN: -t 1m a partisan. MR. ROWE: Of course he is a partisan but he should not - we are all partisan to a certain extent, Mr.

Speaker, but it should not be allowed to interfere with and cloud one's thinking when it comes to trying to assist people in the rural communities of this Province. It is as simple as that. MR. MORGAN: I never did. I never will. MR. ROWE: No. Now, Mr. Speaker, I was not even going .to relate to that but as ususal the minister could not keep his tongue still and provoked me into saying a few things that I did not want to say.

But I hope that that little phrase will pass through the airwaves of the Province ;- that that is the rule, that is the political rule, the administrative rule that this minister uses in the administration of his department, that he will do anything to Z275

March 8, 1977 Tape No. 828 NM- 2 MR. ROWE: defeat a certain individual and elect another individual. That is tertiary. It is not even secondary. It should be tertiary, Sir, not even secondary, when it comes to what criteria the minister uses for administering the work of his department. And I just hope we do not have too many other ministers over there who operate on that cheap, slimy scale. MR. MORGAN: Bren Howard will look after you in the next election • . MR. ROWE: Now, Mr.

Speaker, I already asked for a ruling and I would certainly appreciate it because if there is one thing I cannot stand it is being badgered by a cheap politician. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. gentleman wishes to be heard without interruption. MR. ROWE: Yes, Sir, I do. MR • SPEAKER: That is his right. The hon. member for Trinity- Bay de Verde. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, one thing I would like to raise is the use of the word 'cheap politician' and in what context is it meant? Is it parliamentary? MR. ROWE: Inexpensive. MR.

DOODY: Inexpensive or in terms of a degree of price or a degree of shoddiness~ Che~p i~ interchangeable, and I would like to get some sort of a ruling. MR. ROWE: Well, Mr. Speaker, if I can probably clarify that. The minister's image is not what I thought it was; is not satisfactory. And that is what I mean by cheap. Okay? MR. DOODY: I mean cheap should be ruled :--::::_/ MR. MORGAN: Your words . are. fantastic~- -You are hurting me. MR. ROWE: It is certainly not shutting the hon. minister up • . - --- --~ -- -- - '" .. MR. SPEAKER: Orde~. please!

What has_been brought up is --- ------- -- - - ...... a poittt of order. Certainly abusive or insulting language would be out of order. Also a personal attack by one member upon another is an offence against the House, etc. The hon. gentleman was 2276

March 8, 1977 Tape No. 828 NM- 3 asked to define what he meant by cheap and I think he said something to the effect that his image was not quite what . the hon. gentleman thought it was and that would appear to be innocuous. The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh! Oh! MR. ROWE: Thank you for your ruling, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The phrase not the hon. gentleman. MR. ROWE: Sir, one thing that I want to bring up regarding the district of Trinity-Bay de Verde is this, and I think it is relatively important.

There are twenty-six communities in the district of which nine only are incorporated. So we have a situation, Sir, where - you take a place like where these students represent· this afternoon, New Harbour, where you have 232 households, and you take Greens Harbour that has 203 households and you take Lead Cove and Sibleys Cove and New Melbourne, and Brownsdale and New Chelsea, sort ,of a string of communities in the more northern part of the district, 2277

March 8, 1977 Tape 829 IB-1 :r-m. P.mm: they make up about 200 households and they would like to have a joint council. Sir, since this government has been elected there has been a virtual freeze on the incorporation. There have been a few incorporations but there has been a virtual freeze on incorporation . . of these communities that l-Tant incorporation and very desperately need incorporation • . Dildo and New Harbour are right next to each other. It is unfortunate they are not in the same electoral district,really,because they are certainly t~vin. collll!lunities.

But Dildo and New Harbo -ur together and Greens Harbour would make up a fair size community. And these people are there still desperately looking for water services. There are the pipes for the two fish plants in New Harbour but there are no connections going off to the houses. .

If only they could have local government in communitiel'! like Greens Harbour and New Harbour and these other group of communities that I mentioned that could, you Y~ow, exist as sort of a joint community, they would be able to I avail themselves of the various formulas or formulae that the Department of Transportation and Communications has for local roads. They would be able to avail themsleves of the var:f .. ous formulae or formulas that they have in the Department of ¥unic:f .pal Affairs and Housing for water works, for water and/or sewage. These people, Sir, are caught in a real bind.

We have these huge communities with 203 households and 132 households respective!~ that I just mentioned} who are still crawling to the Division of Water Services for artesian wells. Sir, there is not enough money in the departm~nt, there is not enough money in the Division of Water Services itself to pay ·for these two communities to provide water because the Water Services Division obviously was set up to serve small communities that did not have town councils.

But the problem is that we have very large communities that do not have town councils. · I think, Sir, it is time that this administration start giving the real reason if there is a real reason, why 'tve do not have more incorporation. 2Z/8

}'.arch 8, 1977 Tape 829 IB-2 Is the real reason the one that I alluded to earlier when !,was talking about you cannot have it both waysZ The }'inister of Finance cannot get up on one day and say, ·oh I just got $50 million on very reasonable terms without any difficulty~ and then got another $50 million in private placement from Alberta for next year's spending, then the Premier and other ministers of the Crown say, Look, boy, we ju~t cannot do it for you this year. It is going to be very difficult because we have a PO Government in Quebec and it .is making the borrowing situation more difficult.

Sir,the fact of the matter is that probably the member for Twillingate (~r. Smallwood) is absolutely right. AN RON. MEMBER: Would the hon. member permit a _question? MR. ROWE: Just a moment. You know I am not a fiscal expert and I want to follow whatever meager trend of thought I have here through and then the minister can ask a question.

The real reason, Sir, that we are not having more incorporations of the various communities in rural Newfoundland - and this is the hon. crowd, Sir, who promised that they were going to do everything for rural Newfoundland, they were going to change the whole scheme of things for rural Newfoundland,. But on the one. hand we hear a person submitting the argument that this Province is on the verge of bankruptcy, it cannot afford to borrow anymore. MR. DOODY: Nobody is suggesting that. MR. ROWE: Some people are suggesting that.

But as soon as you suggest that you are criticizing the Province and weakening the financial position of the Province. But what I am trying to say, Sir, is that I do not think the real reason is waiting for final study of the report, the V.7halen Commission Report and the other report on regional governments and local governments in general, the Royal Commission Report -, - I think the real problem is that this government simply cannot afford to set up more incorporated communities. It has not got the money to back up these incorporated communities. That is what I am suggesting. And r 2279

March 8, 1977 Tape 830 JM - 1 MR. ROWE: _ : ~~y __ do they not say so? Be honest with the people, Sir, come out and just say, "Look, we are boxed in." Do not blame Quebec: for it. This was the government that said that we were on the verge of bankruptcy in 1971 when we had close to $1 billion debt and now we are approaching $3 billion. So let us level with the people. And what do we have to show for it, by the way, Mr. Speaker? What do we have to show for the doubling and tribling of the debt in this province? We do not have any more incorporations. We do not have any more industries.

We do not have any more jobs. We have less jobs. We have less industries. We have more executive assistants. We have more travel by cabinet ministers in and out of the province. We have more of all . the things that this bon. group over there say we should not have when they were in opposition and less of the things that they suggested we should have.

The fact of the matter, Sir, is that we have t 'o tell the people why we cannot inc:orpo~ate them, certain c:ommunities>and take -- _ J them off the hook so that they will know where they are going , .Because there are hundreds of communities out there, Sir, living in hopes that they will be incorporated this coming year and they ' will be able to avail themselves of the monies from the Department of __ .. Transportation and ~o~~nic:ations and of monies from the Municipal Affairs and Housing Department.

I say to the government, call a . spade a spade and · ]usf ·- :~ say, "We cannot do it Newfoundland, we cannot do it." Now, Sir, in another little conversation with the Premier·· - - With the delegation :..:-well let us go back a year .Last year I brought in a number of delegations from the - MR. SPEAKER: A point of order! MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker I rise to point out there is an awful lot of hubbub from the otaer side of the House MR. SPEAKER: If the bon. member finds it difficult to hear his colleagues I am sure bon. gentlemen will - MR. ROWE: I would not blame the bon. my colleagues, Sir.

This bon. crowd are just demonstaating in front of the galleries here the feeling 2·280

March 8 , 19 77 Tape 830 JM- 2 MR. ROWE: and the care and the coneern that they have for the people of this province by not even listening to, I do not know if it is a sensible speech or not but at least they can listen and try to find out whether it is sensible. MR. MURPHY: With papers flving and everything else it is hard to listen. MR. ROWE: Well, he is an old buddy, Sir. By the way the hon. minister is not in his seat and should not even be allowed to open his mouth. The hon. member for St. John's Center. Now the point that I was trying to make was this, Mr.

Speaker, that there are unincorporated communities out there who are living in great expectations of being incorporated next year or this year and I am suggesting that this government is in no financial position to incorporate these communities that need to be incorporated. So will you please level with the people and tell them what the story is financially with respect to incorporation so that they can plan how to get some provision of public services in their unincorporated communities instead of having them waiting for this little bit of bait that seems to be dangling out there from year to year.

Last year, Sir, there were four or five commun·ities in my district, incorporated communities who were told by the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing who is now, I believe, the Minister of Mines and Energy that there was no doubt if you were in your second phase of your water andb~!:~sewerue. ~. rojec·t ~ · - th~~ e. ~~s ~ o doubt that you would get some money for carrying on the second phase. Buinow you might not get your $800,000 as it might have to be dropped back to $400,000 or $600,000 and the people 1 for instancerof Hearts Delight and Old Perlican accepted that.

Well, Sir, the council of Hearts Delight got a telegram one night telling them that they got $800,000 and got another telegram the next morning telling them that it was an error. Not one of the six communities, Sir, in that district got money for the second phase of their water and/or sewerage project, not one. Now I am not the only district that was subjected to that treatment 228:1

March 8, 1977 Tape 830 JM- 3 MR. ROWE: :f.n _s_p!_te of the endeavours of the executive assistant to the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. YOUNG: What does he have to do with water and sewerage. MR. ROWE: Well he has something to do with fisheries and I thought he might have ~omething to do with water and sewerage. I mean the minister is a very versatile character, Mr. Speaker. He speaks up on every subject; : MR.. MORGAN i I am very versatile. MR. ROWE: And verbose. ·. 2282

March 8, 1977 Tape no. 831 Page 1 - mw Mr. Rowe. And when he becomes verbose, he becomes less versatile or he shows less versatility. AN RON. MEMBER: He is more of a classic. 1m. PECKFORD: He knows more about the facts than you do. MR. RO\YE: But anyway, Sir, this Premier has come up with a new policy now, the hopscotch policy for the provision of money to incorporate communities. Now what is the hopscotch policy? You do not drink it, Sir.

This is where the incorporated communities last year) who did not get money last year for the second phase of their water and ~~!~ge will get money this year,which means according to that formula · eve;y single community in the district of Trinity- Bay de Verde and presumably the other districts in the Province - this was said to a delegation in the Premier's office less -thati." three weeks ago that the hopscotch ~~thod has now been adopted.

Those councils who did not get it last year will get it this year and the guys who got it last year, the councils who got it last year, will have to wait until another year before they get money for their water and/or service project. But the next morning, Sir, I had another delegation in. t The Premier was not available that morning. He had government business no doubt. I am .not criticizing him for that.

But we visited the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, and I said, ''What is this hopscotch thing, the Premier is talking about?" He says, "What?" I said, '~ell I understand that the councils who were in their second phase last year of their water and sewage systems, and who did not get any money last year are sure to get it this year." MR. LUNDRIGAN: Very good. I will get some money this year. MR. ROWE: Good, and I am hoping for the same thing. MR. NEARY: Where are the loans coming from? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ROWE: Now, Sir, he introduced another little factor.

The Minister of ~~iclpal - Affairs and Housing, Sir, said that they are about - where is the minister? Is he in the House, because I could stand to be corrected on some--of-· tb.is- -= they are about to send out to 2283

March 8, 1977 Tape no. 831 Page 2 - mw MR. ROWE. every council now a set of criteria, fifteen or sixteen criteria that they want answered in the affirmative before they get money for the completion, say, of their second phase, fifteen or sixteen criteria. MR. DOODY: I know what it means. MR. ROWE: Yes, I know what it means, too. MR. DOODY: If you do not talk, you are stunned. MR. ROWE: Well,. I do not- know where the government would --~·-·· fit in that kind of a situation, Sir. I think they have hopped in their scotch at the same time. But, Sir, just listen.

Amongst the fifteen or sixteen criteria is this one, Will you submit yourselves to a hook-up fee? Now what does that mean? That means in a community - I will just take at random like Old Perlican or it could be Heart's Delight - MR. DOODY: Take Random. MR. ROWE: Or take Random. - where you have one phase of the water and sewerage system\done, these homes were connected up - and I understand by the way, Mr.

Speaker, that a fair number of homes were really connected up in Exploits during the by-election, really connected up to the water and sewerage .systems, but that is no fault of the member who has the honour of representing that district at the present time - but now a community like Heart's Delight or Old Perlican where approximately one-third or one-half of the people have had their water and sewerage installed into their homes - that is fine and dandy - the other half or the other two-thirds of the people are being asked to pay what is called a hook-up fee.

In other words the waterline will go to their private property, and then they have to pay for the waterline and sewage line - going=~~- ~ndlor out of the house. Now there is nothing wrong with that, Sir. We may be coming to that kind of a situation. But why 2284

March 8, 1977 Tape no. 831 Page 3 - mw Mr. Rowe .. should the government int~oduce it in midstream in a community? That is what I am arguing about or against. ~£ the government are in this much financial trouble that they have to use this as a criteria to get your wat.er services in, your Z285

1-"arch 8, 1977 Tape 832 IB-1 ~- ROloJE: water and sewerage in J why not introduce -that ~Then you start a project in a community instead of introducing it halfways through? Now you will have the same rivalry between the communities but surely it would not be quite as intense as the rivalry that would P-xi~~ between the people sitting in a community When the people on the North side say, "You have got to pay for your hookup $90.00. $200, $300 and the people on the South side got it done for nothing." So I just cannot see the wisdom of that particular philosophy, Sir.

Then that is another way that the government are going to get off the hook this year in administering funds to these incorporated communities because some of these incorporated communities are going to come back and say, "I am sorry the people will not agree to these hookup fees." So the minister and the Finance Committee clown there takes the great list of requests that have come in and obviously the ones who have said the least in-the affirmative are the ones who are !"' - --- - going to be at the bottom of the list. '-- --. . .. _ __;__-_-. - -~ · - ~- MR. ROWE: ~ut it is being forced on them, Sir.

It is being forced on them. So, Sir, I would like for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing to tell it the way it is as far as the finances of this Province are concerned. ~vell the Minister of Finance could tell us the way it is as far as the finances are concerned and let the Minister of ~unicipal Affairs and Housing then be able to educate the people and let them know that the real reason for the lack of incorporation is not awaiting any further study, is the fact that the government are just plain busted, not only of money, Sir, but of ideas~ ~~nkrupt. It is as simple as that.

MR.LUNDRIGAN: ·senafor£h-vim and vigor. You sound like you are tired. MR. ROWE: I already indicated to the hon. minister, Sir, why I cannot get too enthusiastic these days, why I mi~ht appear to be tired because - 2286

March 8, 1977 Tape 832 MR. NOLAN: A point of order - MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. IB-2 MR. NOLAN: The hon. ·member on four occasions has asked to be heard in silence. I am ~rondering if the Speaker would now be good enough to provide that opportunity to the hon. member, tired or not tired. ~~. SPEAKER: I am sure the hon. members will honour the wishes of the hon. member for Trinity-Bay de ·verde (Mr. Rm.re) if he wishes to be heard in silence. MR .• LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, I apologize for my in