ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature ollhe Leglslatlve Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 368 - 8:00 p.m., TUESDAY, 29 MARCH, 1983. Prinled by Ille Office of Ille Queens Printw. Provinee ot MMilobll

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYR A, Hon. Eugene KOV NATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Bu rrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP IND NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC ND P NDP NDP NDP NDP PC NDP NDP NOP PC NDP PC NOP NDP NOP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 29 March, 1983. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMIT TEES OF SUPPLY SUPPL Y - GOVERNMENT SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee, please come to order. We are on Item No. (eX1) - Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to go back if I could, if the committee would wish to deal with the question dealing with Administration, the breakdown as to the increase in salaries for Administration. The Honourable Member for Pembina asked for the breakdown for that particular appropriation, and I could refer him to the following figures.

I had indicated before, I gave the overall breakdown for the increase and this is for this particular appropriation. The percentage for the shortfall in the base is 31 percent for that particular appropriation. The percentage for the total salary increase, general salary increase, for '83-84 in that appropriation is 39 percent of the increase. The percentage for the 27th pay period is 17 percent; the percentage for merit increases and reclassification and so on is 13 percent, so that adds up to 100 percent. It varies from appropriation to appropriation.

What I gave at the beginning was the average for the whole department and for further clarification, just with regard to the matter of the shortfall, the amount that the Budget was short last year, of course - the questions were asked by the Member for Pembina as to whether we were actually supplementing last year ' s Estimates with the increase this year. Certai nly the Special Warrant takes care of the amount that is needed to cover the salaries for last year, over and above that which was budgeted.

The Special Warrants are not included in the Reconciliation Statement for the previous year in the Estimates Book. As the honourable member is perhaps aware, it is only Supp lementary Supply Acts that are included in those figures, not Special Warrants. Therefore, the Special Warrant requirement for salaries for 1982-83 is not included in those figures. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, just a couple of questions, Mr. Chairman, following that information. I thank the Minister for it.

Then what the Minister is saying is that the Special Warrants which have been passed to cover, for instance, in this particular line , (cX1), to cover the 31 percent, as he describes it, base shortfall, was covered by Special Warrant and is not part of the Reconciliation Statement, hence does not appear on the left-hand column of figures. Secondly, so the Minister can bank these and then we save time going back and forth, Mr.

Chairman, does the total salary increase for '83-84, which equates the 39 percent of the salary difference in (c)(1), is that based on the 9.5 percent figure that the Minister indicated was appropriate for (b )(1) ? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, first, the shortfall, it is correct the way it was described. It has not been included in the figures on the left-hand side, the Special Warra nts, in other words. Those would be forthcoming, as a matter of fact, once the total amount is determined. Then the Special Warrant will be passed for the Salaries.

The 9.5 percent that was mentioned for the previous figure, for the previous appropriation, is the same that is applied to this appropriation. As well, I might add that in projecting, the honourable member referred earlier to the fact that then the deficit projections by the Minister of Finance would not be accurate if this was the case, that these were not included in the Reconciliation Statements on the left­ hand side. If they were not included in all of the budgets then, of course, the Member for Pembina said that the deficit Estimates would not be correct.

That is not quite correct because that is taken into consideration in estimating the deficit for the previous year. MR. D. ORCHARD: I thank the Minister. The Minister indicates that a Special Warrant will be passed, does that Special Warrant cover the salary increases yet to be passed? HON. J. PLOHMAN: That includes the salary increases for the previous year that were not covered in the budget. MR. D. ORCHARD: Is that Speci al Warrant yet to be passed? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, pardon me, that Special Warrant has been passed . MR. D. ORCHARD: Ok ay, I think that's sufficient for now, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Vi rden . MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Now when these figures then appear in Public A ccounts, will the figures for Salaries include the amount that was passed by Sp ecial Warrant? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, in Public Accounts. MR. H. GRAHAM: So the figures that appear in Public Accounts will not be the same figures that are in here? HON. J. PLOHMAN: My understand ing is they will be the actual figures. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(e)(1)-p ass; 1.(e)(2). MR. D. ORCHARD: I thought you said (a)(1), Mr. Chairman. 1221

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 MR. CHAIRMAN: No, 1.(e)( 1) - the Memb er for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the Minister was going to try to get some information for me and I wonder if the Minister might have that information. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, is the honourable member referring to the information regarding EMO? MR. D. ORCHARD: That's correct. HON. J. PL OHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I do have copies of correspondence that have been received by my office from the Emergency Measures Organization during the period of the ice storm that the member was referring to.

Should I just provide the honourable member with a copy of this? MR. D. ORCHARD: Does that include the material from which the Premier referred on the 8th of March? HON. J. PL OHMAN: Mr. Chairman, that material was, I understand, the scribbled notes that were made by my assistant for the benefit of the Premier and we are including in this information the statement that is found in the Hansard, because that is exactly what he stated. Plohman) MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, unfortunately the First Minister allowed me to read the portion of that. It was not a scribbled note, it was a typed document.

I did not pursue the matter and asked the Premier at the time to table it which probably would have been the appropriate thing to do. But I trust that the Minsiter will attempt to provide the committee with that information. It was not a scribbled statement. It was, in fact, excerpts from a typewritten report which I would assume had to come from the Minister's department. I wonder if the Minister might provide us with that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J. PL OHM AN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I would assume then that is included in the information I've just distributed to the honourable member.

I don't know whether he's able to identify whether that is or not but I'm not aware of any other typed information that was available. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'll just read this information and indicate to the Minister whether that's sufficient. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is the Member for Pembina done with his questioning? The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to move into an area regarding the agreement, or the proposed agreement, between Ottawa and Manitoba regarding the sharing of emergency measure costing. I'm making reference specifically to an

article from the paper December 4, 1982 plus a News Service release from your department June 5, 1981 and I'd like to know where we stand regarding the attempt to reach an agreement with the Federal Government in the sharing of costs related to emergencies within the provincial jurisdiction. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the Memorandum of Agreement, or of understanding, that the honourable member is referring to is in draft form and is being considered and reviewed by my office at this time.

Once we've had the opportunity to review all aspects of it and discuss it with my colleagues, and once it is then in the form to be signed, it would become public information. The work on that me morandum resulted from the June 1981 meeting by the former Minister of the previous government, in which he attended a conference of all Ministers responsible for emergency measures from across Canada, and the people at the staff level worked on the Memorandum of Understanding. It was agreed to at the staff level and now it is being presented to the various governments for consideration. MR. C.

MANNESS: Maybe the Minister then could tell me what is in effect right now. What agreement is in effect if indeed there is any? HON. J. PL OHMAN: In terms of cost-s haring it is the same agreement in effect that has been in effect for a number of years.

The Federal Government, at th at time of the conference that I just referred to, was considering or was attempting I think to want to change that formula but it has certainly been to Manitobas advantage over the years previous in a number of emergencies, where the sharing formula that was in pla ce benefited Manitoba, and I understand that with strong pleas from the province and from other provinces' support, that they have agreed to consult with us if they were considering any changes in that formula and there have been no changes up to this time. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, two points here, Mr.

Chairman, I would ask the Mini ster then , firstly, th at the Memorandum of Agreement which he and the Government of Manitoba are considering at this time, it allows for no change in the existing formula for cost­ sharing whatsoever; and secondly, what type of time frame are they looking towards to completion of this Memorandum towards a final agreement? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The cost-sharing agreement would be the same.

The time frame, hopefully, would have a final decision on that Memorandum by this summer or fall, so I personally would like to see that it has gone through the various stages of consideration by that time. I would just mention that the formula that we're dealing with is that the first million dollars of emergency funding that is required is paid for by the province under the current formula, 100 percent by the province. The second and third million dollars are 50 percent provincially funded and 50 percent federally funded. The fourth and fifth million dollars are 25 percent 1222

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 provincially funded and 75 percent by the Federal Government, and over $5 million is 90 percent by the Federal Government and 10 percent by the Provincial Government. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, what emergencies does the existing plan cover? Is the Memorandum working towards a new contract? Does it cover the same number of emergencies or the same grouping of emergencies completely, or does indeed the coverage of certain disasters change? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: My understanding is that the kinds of emergencies that apply have not changed from the previous plans, agreements or workings that have been in place. Certainly they have not allowed certain groupings of them. It would depend on the kinds of emergencies that arise. MR. C. MANNESS: Then can the Minister tell me why it will take such a long period of time to complete this agreement? If in fact the cost-sharing hasn't changed, if the disaster numbers and groupings and types hasn't changed, what is the problem?

If we are happy with the old existing agreement, what is taking us so long to sign an agreement which, in effect, is identical to a former one? HON. J. PLOHMAN: There's been negotiation in terms of the promptness of payment by the Fed eral Government for situations where the province has incurred large expenses. What has happened before, everything had to be tied up and submitted before any payments could be received.

We currently are attempting and have agreement, at least in the paper as it is now from the Federal Government, that they would consider advance payment for some of this to offset some of the heavy costs that could be incurred by the Provincial Government, and therefore put the Provincial Government in the difficult situation during emergencies. That is one of the major considerations. MR. C.

MANNESS� Well, maybe the Minister can then tell me what dela y, has traditionally taken place, from the time that the emergency has hit and final payments; and secondly, I would ask him to restate, if in fact, the promptness of payments is the sole and only, or the major condition, under which we're having some difficulty, or taking some time at least, to reach a new agreement. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Certainly that was one of the condsiderations.

There's been a new plan - Joint Emergency Planning Program, JEP Program - that has been also taking effect that wasn't in existence before and it covers a wide range of peacetime programs that the province might engage in and receive federal funding for.

In this program, Joint Emergency Planning Program, the Provincial Government puts in its resources, its people from EMO staff, for exa mple, which are considered the provincial input into that program and then the Federal Government funds, if they're approved under the Joint Emergency Planning Program - if that is approved by the Federal Government - then funds 100 percent of the costs of that particular program. So that is one of the considerations that has been involved in these negotiations as well. MR. C. MANNESS: I'm not quite clear, Mr. Chairman.

Maybe the Minister can tell me as to whether we, as a province, are in favour of the, as he calls the Joint Emergency Planning Program as laid down by - I don't know who laid it down. Was it at our request, as provinces, or was it a federal proposal and are we opposed to certain conditions of it? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we are not opposed. As a matter of fact, we've had a number of programs approved under that, even though the Memorandum of Understanding has not taken place, has not been signed by this province.

In working with the staff from the Federal Government, we certainly have taken advantage of that program provincial ly, and for a numb er of JE P Programs, even in advance of signing of this agreement. They are hopeful that we will indeed sign the particular agreement, but they have gone ahead and financed a number of these programs at any rate. So we certainly believe that they are working to the advantage of the province. MR. C. MANNESS: I see a list has been provided to the Minister. Maybe he could give us a few examples of some of those projects that have helped Manitobans. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: There are a number of programs that are considered under that program in the last year. One is the emergency preparedness for hazardous goods - accidents, the Mobile Monitoring Unit which has been funded 50-50 with the Federal Government paid, I understand, Februa ry 10, 1983; tha t was completed. That is $70,000 that we received under that particular program. The Emergency Co-ordinating Centre for the City of Winnipeg was a major recipient of funding under this program as well; will be receiving $10 6,500 under that program and putting up $61 ,000 of their own.

This was done through the province, but the province does not have any costs under that particular program. The emergency eq uipm ent for remote commun ications in Northern Ma nitoba under the Department of Northern Affairs received $45,000 as the federal share for communications equipment under this program. Thirty thousand is the provincial share from Northern Affairs. Those are some examples. There are a number of others. They also pay for the ST E P, Student Temporary Employment Program.

We have a number of students doing su rveys with munic ipaliti es of hazards and resources that they have available for them in the communities. The students have visited a number of the communities and I have a list of 42 communities in Man itoba where they have worked with local municipalities in establishing and doing a survey of the kinds of hazards that exist in those particular locations and the resources that they could use to respond and so on. That has been funded 100 percent by the Federal Government under the JEP program. MR. C.

MANNESS: I thank the Minister for giving me examples of the projects under that particular program. 1223

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 I'm wondering if he ca n tell me if and when Ottawa, the Federal Government, first of all, if they have to cover this renegotiated Emergency Measures Program, do they have to enact that by a bill of the House of Commons? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I don't believe that they have to pass

an Act to enter into an agreement They have already signed agreements with a couple of provinces, I believe, under this program. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I guess I'm a little uncertain here. I would ask then the Minister whether the Federal Government envisages bringing forward any type of legislation that would give the Federal Government co ntrol, in effec t, over emergen cy situations that arise within the Province of Manitoba and indeed within provinces of Canada. Is there any type of legislation contemplated within Ottawa in this regard? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I don't believe that there is any legislation contemplated at this time, Mr. Chairman. I know that they have passed an Order-in-Counc il dealing with designating which departments to prepare for emergency situations and to identify their roles during emergencies, but that has been done by Order-in­ Counc il, it is my understanding, not by

an Act MR. C. MANNESS: Well, I suppose then my final question, Mr. Chairman, given that the next time - and hopefully it won't be for many years to come - but next time that there's a major flood within the Red River Valley, or indeed, there are major forest fires within our province, will our ability as a province, to deal with these measures within the confines of our province , have ch anged at all? Will we have total control to fight these particu lar disasters as they come due? Will it be impeded to any degree by any federal action? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I have not been able to identify, nor have I been advised at any time, that we would be limited in any way at all, in our ability to deal with those emergenc ies. As a matter of fact , I stated in terms of the funding, that our ability to deal with them would be enhance d, not impeded. MR. C. MANNESS: And again, my final question, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister.

I would like him to again state for the record that right now the only reason, or the major reason, why indeed this Memorandum of Agreement - working towards a completed agreement - the only reason that it hasn't happened up until now, is tha t there's been some difference of opinion, regarding the promptness of payments, should disaster strike. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, that has not, at this time, I believe we have agreement with the Federal Government, that they have agreed that they could consider payment on an advance basis, rather than only after all of the costs have been paid out and incu rred and then submitted by the provinc e. So that is not the only matter holding it up.

We are reviewing it to see that it is comprehensive and complete in all details, as to the kinds of funct ions that would best be designated towards the provinc ial ju risdiction, and those that would be best accomplished by the Federal Government, and so on, those are all included - the various roles. We want to make sure that it is complete and satisfactory to us and that is why we're taking the time to review at this time. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, I have to break my promise.

I was prepared to acce pt the final word from the Minister but now he leaves me a little unsure again, as to what other areas of conce rn there are regarding an agreement which, by his own admission, was one tha t was acce ptabl e to this province, one that indeed - the major part being the sharing of financing, or the sharing of costing hadn't ch anged - what other areas are under review? Can he disc lose that to us? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I just stated that all of the areas deal ing with responsibility to the both levels of government are being looked at and reviewed to see that they ' re all included in this agreement, the various funct ions tha t would be incl uded . I think that is something that should be considered, when you're looking at a new agreeme nt, to see tha t it is comprehensive, and once it has been dec ided to our satisfact ion, that we're satisfied with that, we will be making this public. But at this time I don't think it would appropriate to disc uss the spec ifics of it. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I have to disagree. This is our only real time that we have, as members, to know what those other comprehensive factors are, and indeed are they being considered in the manner in which they should. It's a very real issue to somebody like myself, who has seen disaster strike, and I think it's only fair to my constituency, as a whole, that indeed some comment be made as to what those other comprehensive factors are. HON. J. PLOHMAN: That's right. We have to consider this on our level of government. I say staff have agreed; they have presented it to us.

I have not isolated particu lar issues that would be of major concern to us. It's a matter of going over ce rtain matters, as to wording, and we want to make sure that we understand exactly what is stated in the wording as it is, and so sometimes we've asked the staff to go back and get cl arification with staff from the Federal Government and so on in our first run at this. I would want to co nsider this with my ca uc us colleagues, as well, before taking it to Cabinet as well, for approval, and therefore, I ca n't divulge the details of it at this time because we have not considered it to that point.

As I said, staff has agreed to it and we have not identified major concerns, but I say, we are looking at the whole thing. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm not asking for divulgence of the negotiating facts, in the sense of where the barriers of agreement and disagreement are to be drawn. I guess I'm basically asking, what is so different about this proposed new agreement in wording? What has ch anged it so significa ntly that indeed it now requires such a major review to take to 1224

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 caucus. Because the Min ister said, in my first questioning, that the former agreement was one that was very acceptable and that indeed the only aspect of it that was not acceptable was the promptness of payments. Now he's saying that there are some other areas that indeed may be of concern and I'm wondering if he can identify them in just a broad way, a conceptual way. I don't have to have the details specifically, as to what the Province of Manitoba's bargaining position is on any factor. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, the honourable mem ber has to be aware tha t this is the first comprehensiv e agreement, the Memo randum of Understanding. One didn't exist before in that, and so therefore, we're dealing with something is completely new and comprehensive.

There has been some arrangements for disaster financial assistance with the Federal Government before, but certainly a Memorandum of Understanding that deals with the broad defi nitions of emergenc y, the roles of the Provincial Government and the Federal Government in dealing with peacetime emergencies and so on, have to be outlined in general terms, and that is what we're dea ling with in this particular Memorandum of Understanding, as opposed to something that is just renewing an old agreement.

So we're dealing with something that is more comprehensive and new, in defining roles, as compared to something that just did not exist before in that. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I accept that explanation. If it's the first time that there's been a comprehensive agreement struck, I can see the desire by the government to make sure that the wording is proper. So I guess my last question then is given that . MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that a promise? MR. C. MANNESS: Well, it depends what the final answer - was tha t the Chairman th at ma de tha t comment? A MEMBER: Th at was the Chairman!

Ha rdly an impartial Chairman. A MEMBER: Is this your last question or isn't it? MR. C. MANNESS: It depends, it depends. I would ask the Minister, given a flood situation like 1979, would there be anything in the proposal at all that would allow the Federal Government to reduce its contribution towards disaster assistance? HON. J. PLOHMAN: There would not be anything that would reduce the benefits. As a matter of fact, there could be elements in there that would increase the benefits, such as having churches and co-operatives qualifying for assistance, where they haven't in the past.

So there could be broadening of those that are eligible for financial assistance but certainly there would not be any deterioration of the assistance that would be available to us under this agreement. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I thank you. That was my last question. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister and I were having a discussion prior to the 4:30 adjournment hour and the Minister indicated, Mr. Chairman, that it was not considered an emergency for someone to be, you know, out of power for seven days, etc., etc.

The Minister also mentioned prior to 4:30 that EMO has been undertaking a consultative role with the various councils of, I assume, towns and villages, and municipalities to provide them with emergency planning advice. Could the Minister indicate what sort of a reporting role has been established - that consultat ive process between the councils and EMO? HON. J. PLOHMAN: What consultative role, could the honourable member repeat that? MR. D. ORCHARD: What reporting system?

What system of reporting and communication between EMO and the council members with which EMO has been consulting as the Minister indicates over the past year. Wha t sort of a communic ation role has been establ ished, and a reporting system has been established, so that the councils and EMO might work together during an emergency situation? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, first of all I just wanted to clarify that I did not say before the supper hour that it wasn't an emergency if an individual was without power for seven days. That would depend on the circumstances, I said that very clearly.

And what might be defined, or perceived as an emergency by an individual certainly may not be perceived as an emergency where EMO has to get involved. And I think that clarification has to be made. With regard to the involvement of the municipal advisors from EMO with the individual councils and municipalities, in developing emergency plans, I would assume that the honourable member is interested in not the communication that is ongoing in terms of developing these plans but what kind of communication would take place during an emergency. If that is correct, Mr.

Chairman, that the honourable member is concerned about what happens during an emergency, the people involved in the emergency plan, the municipal councillors and so on, when they're contacted would have their roles defined as to who they report to. If they feel there is a need to call EMO for any particular advice or with any information they will do that through the published number. Now the muni cipa l advisers as such would get involved if they felt it was necessary, or on request, to work with the community in formulating and dealing with the emergency as it evolves.

They may not be involved during the emergency, the particular advisers, or they may be, depending on the extent of it. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, then am I reading the Minister's comments correctly that councillors should contact EMO officers and request assistance if they deem an emergency is existing? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, if the y need assistance from the various depart ments of the 1225

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 Provincial Government they would contact EMO and EMO would certainly direct them to the approp riate authorities or contact the appropriate authorities to get involved. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, I guess then, Mr. Chairman, I've got a problem with the Minister's answer to my letter of March Bth, where he indicates tha t if constituents require assistance, whether because of generator failure, or of another nature, and in the specific, another nature that we're referring to in here is power failure, the Minister says - they should seek assistance through their respective municipality.

Why wouldn't the Minister have included in that letter that they should have the municipal councillors contact EMO if that's the reporting system that he indicates is established? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, obviously if individual citizens have problems that they encounter, during what they feel is an emergency, they could contact their councillors.

And at tha t point the councillors would, particularly if they have an emergency plan, and were prepared to follow it, and were following that, and were familiar with what kinds of resources were available to them under certain circumstances, would refer them to the appropriate authorities, whether it be the Hydro in the case of power outages, or whether it be directly to EMO if they are unsure as to what agency they should be contacting, or if it is a greater emergency that they feel that they need additional co­ ordination and help. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Well, that really is not quite a satisfactory answer but we'll pursue it at a later date. Is the Minister indicating that ice storms are indeed a part of an emergency response which would stimulate councillors to contact EMO? HON. J. PLOHMAN: That is entirely possible, Mr. Chairman, depending on the situation. They could very well want to contact EMO for additional help, and I think that a number of councillors did, during that particular ice storm, contact EMO and representatives from various RM's, rural municipalities, whether it be councillors, or secretary treasurers, or whatever.

And I think the information that I supplied to the honourable member will quite clearly outline that a number of people did contact EMO for information. One of the things that did occur, of course, is that because of the honourable member calling EMO , and receiving what he perceived as information, that there were gen erators avai lable from EMO , and then contacting the radio station and having this broadc.ast over the radio station, there was confusion created that there were generators indeed available at EMO.

Of course, there was not in fact generators that could do the job that the Member for Pembina thought, or was under the impression that they could do. So this caused confusion because then some calls were received for generators which was erroneous in that EMO cannot supply this kind of equipment. What EMO can do is di rect people to the appropriate authorities. If everything is done properly they can direct the officials of munici palities to proper authorities. In many cases, of course, if the emergency plan has been completed the local authorities are familiar with what their resources are in their community.

That's part of the emergency plan and they can therefore can go directly to those resources to fulfil! the needs of the citizens of their particular municipality rather than having to contact EMO . MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, we'll deal with some of the information that the Minister has put on at a later date. But first of all I'd like to ask the Minister what he believes EMO's role should be during an ice storm, what role should EMO play during the kind of an emergency that was perceived at the municipal and rural level during the latest ice storm? Does the Minister perceive EMO to have a role there? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, there certainly is a role that could be played by EMO , and as was played in this particular ice storm, there was a role played by EMO . A number of examples of assistance given by EMO are a preparedness to get involved where necessary. I can cite examples from Teulon where the duty officer at EMO was contacted by the Teulon RCMP and they advised that the power had been out all night and RCMP were concerned about the hospital and the care home, with the temperature dropping and so on. So they were seeking to lay out plans for evacuation of the members from the hospital and the care home.

As it turned out, the Hydro was turned on in time, but in the meantime, the EMO officer was contacting the appropriate agencies to make sure and to locate proper quarters for these people if the emergency continued. And that is consistent with what I said earlier, that emergencies evolve and EMO has to be there ready to assist in any way possible when needed but not to jump right in head-first right at the very beginning when things are developing and the people locally are coping with the emergency.

The agencies, the Hydro, for example, in this case, was handling the concerns and the calls to the best of their ability and therefore that job should be left to those who are experts in that field. EMO is contacted when additional help is needed and I feel that is the best way for them to operate.

Certainly part of dealing with emergencies is making people aware of what kind of emergencies can occur and that's part of the emergency plans that they are involved with, that EMO is involved with, making people aware so that they can contemplate what kinds of emergencies could be taking place and then how they would deal with those. They should be able to react on a local basis first to those kinds of emergencies and then secondly, at the provincial level, provincial outside help if it's necessary. But the first line should not be that they immediately run to the Provincial Government for assistance. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Well, now that've we've established that people shouldn't expect first off, help from EMO because the Minister doesn't think it's an emergency until after several days. MR. CHAIRMAN: Will the Minister state his point of order. HON. J. PLOHMAN: The point of order is that I did not say that it is an emergency after several days. I said very clearly that it depends on the situation. 1226

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 MR. D. ORCHARD: And after several days it might be an emergency. HON. J. PLOHMAN: It ma y be after several days, it may be very much shorter than that, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. ORCHARD: Fair enough.

Would the Minister consider that an appropriate role for EMO under circumstances such as an ice storm, which you know happened fairly regularly in fairly big chunks of Manitoba and my constituency probably gets clobbered on top of the escarpment as often as anybody, would the Minister consider it to be a logical role that EMO might co-ordinate and have a list of available generators, whether they have them themselves or not, but a list of available standby generator units that are available for rental throughout the province, would that be considered to be a reasonable role for EMO to assume so that when councillors phone in they might be provided with that information from EMO?

Would the Minister consider that to be a reasonable thing to expect from EMO? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think that it would be reasonable to have generator sources listed, and I think it would be extremely reasonable for the local municipalities in their emergency plans to have this kind of information and I would actually be very adamant that this should be available and I understand that kind of information is available where emergency plans have been completed.

I might point out that a number of municipalities have shown no interest to date in planning for emergencies and that's particularly the case - well not more the case in the honourable member's region, but certainly in that region is the case that the R.M. of Roland has indicated no interest to date and yet is the one that we received three or four calls from, EMO did, during that particular ice storm and it might be pointed out that if an emergency plan had been in place there that the members of the council and whoever else, their officials that phoned, would have known, would have had the information available to them as to what sources they should pursue with regard to generators and so on.

But they have not at this time indicated interest. I'm hopeful that they will so that in the future they will have an adequate level of preparedness when emergencies such as that occur and I would hope that the honourable member would certainly promote that with municipalities in his area so as to avoid that situation from happening again, particularly if there were frequent ice storms and so on in that particular area. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, I'll certainly pass on to Roland council the concern and the almost - well I won't put it on the record like it appeared - but I'll point out to Roland council the great concern that the Minister has for their lack of ability to plan for an emergency. So, Mr. Chairman, I take it from the Minister's answer that might well be a reasonable role for EMO to undertake, that they have a list of available standby generators that would be available for use on an emergency basis. Could the Minister indicate whether such a list exists in the EMO organization? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I don't believe that there is a central list for generators. As I indicated I think that is properly outlined in local emergency plans at the municipal level and I want to just clear for the record that I did not say that the R.M. of Roland, that I felt that they have a lack of ability in planning for an emergency.

Certainly there is a difference between a lack of ability and actually having an emergency plan in effect and I said it was unfortunate that they did not up to that point take advantage of the service that was available through the emergency measures and that may have contributed to some confusion during the emergency and it does not matter how much ability people have. If they do not have the information available to them, they certainly may not be able to respond in the same manner and as efficiently as they would if they had that information available to them. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Is the Member for Pembina finished with this line of questioning because the Chair would like to recognize the Minister of Natural Resources. MR. D. ORCHARD: No, I've got some more questions, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, that would be an ideal situation where ever y council has an emergency plan all developed and I suppose if that were to happen we could eliminate the Emergency Measures Organization, but such isn't the case as the Minister well knows. Mr. Chairman, the Minister indicates that he's not aware of any existence of a list.

Shortly after this emergency was brought to the attention, I suppose, of the viewers of Manitoba via question period, I received a phone call from a major electrical firm in Winnipeg. It was interesting.

This gentleman with the electrical firm indicated that approximately 18 months ago, at the request of the manager of a rental firm in Winnipeg, he contacted EMO and he provided them with information that he had 50 standby generators of various sizes that were available on a rental basis, left them with a 24-hour phone number so that should an emergency develop those generators could be made available to anyone who needed them, farmers, etc. He was very upset, if I can put it mildly, that having given the information to EMO , it was not available to anyone who requested it.

That's why I asked the Minister if he doesn't think that would be an appropriate role for him. I believe that in the case of ice storms, which happen very quickly -· power may be out from anything from a day to seven days, as it was in parts of southcentral Manitoba - that it would be most helpful if EMO had a list of places where generators are available on a rental basis for the term of the emergency. This fellow provided that information some 18 months ago by · telephone.

The unfortunate part about it is, he doesn't have it in writing so that he cannot prove that he talked to anybody in EMO , but I take the gentleman's word for the fact that he phoned in. It seems as it EMO has done nothing with that. I find that a little bit disturbing because, Mr. Chairman, I followed the Minister's letters and his explanations as to what actually happened on that Sunday afternoon of the ice storm where I contacted EMQ I want to assure the Minister that he hasn't necessarily gotten 1227

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 the correct impression from information he has received to date. The Minister has referred and said that, naturally, Hydro should be contacted about power outages and how various farmers and various individuals cope with power outages. I want to assure the Minister that was the first phone call I made. On Sunday afternoon, I phoned Manitoba Hydro, the Morden office, to get from them an idea of how bad the ice storm was, how long they anticipated there might be power outages.

I was told by the people on duty with Manitoba Hydro that it was bad; that the ice storm could be equivalent or worse than 1977 in December, and that it would not be a bad idea to provide some advice to people who may be out of power for a prolonged period of time. What Hydro told me, and I phoned them back again, was that if you can find a source of generators, do not mention us because we do not have standby generators. We are swamped with service calls and we cannot help anybody because we don't have standby generators. That, Mr. Chairman, was what stimulated the call to EMO .

I want to assure the Minister that in my discussions with EMO , the EMO duty officer, I was specific. I didn't want generators to light lights. I wanted generators to service livestock operations and I was specific in my request. I was advised that there were 16 to 18 between the Government Se rvices warehouses in Winnipeg and Brandon. I was also advised that Brandon had a severe ice storm, as bad what we had in Manitou, Crystal City, Pilot Mound area, and it may well be the case that those generators would not be available out of Brandon. That's why, Mr.

Chairman, the news report, which I talked over at considerable length with the news director at the radio station, indicated only Winnipeg. I was told by the EMO duty officer that I could not requisition gen erators. It had to be through the municipal councillors, which is apparently a system which has been developed. The municipal councillors must determine the nature of the emergency and contact EMO .

It's kind of interesting to note that my request for generators tha t would service livestock watering operations, all of a sudden, turned into ones that - these plants that were indicated were available to me would only run lights. I think the Minister's letter probably tells the story as well as anything, where your letter says, Mr. Minister, the "confusion seems to have developed because the duty officer was not quite specific enough in stating that the old war surplus lighting plants of 1.5 kilowatts were not capable of running the operations you specified." That's absolutely correct.

The information I received was not quite specific enough. I was told there was no problem with that. I don't fault anybody in this situation, but it did lead to considerable confusion and I was particularly upset when some of the municipal councillors that I contacted who had contacted me and I gave them the directions as to how to proceed on this, one was told, well, we don't have any generators, No. 1. That's what one individual was told, quite different from what I was told. There were no generators, period.

Another one, a reeve of a municipality in my area, was told that, yes, we have generators but they've been cannibalized, etc., etc. There were even two different stories within a 12- hour period. There was mass confusion, Mr. Chairman, and I want to point that out to the Minister. What was particularly upsetting was to receive a phone call on Thursday following.

Qu estion Period on Tuesday brought out some of the information, and what was terribly upsetting was to have a phone call from this Winnipeg electrical contractor and supplier saying that, a year-and-a-half ago, he had provided EMO with a list that he had of 50 generators that he had available for rental. Had the EMO officer or anyone from EMO simply told me that we don't have them, but here is a place you can contact. Here's a 24-hour a day number, seven days a week, and have your municipal councillors contact this person and they can line up standby generators.

That information was made available some time ago to EMO , but it didn't go anywhere. I suggest to the Minister, that is something that he should seriously consider having the Co-ordinator of EMO imme diately do. Find out who's got rental generators on for standby use, for emergency use. Have that list available and make it known when you have your emergency co-ordinating meetings with the municipal councillors. Don't rely on the municipal councillors to contact whomever to find out if they've got generators. Have EMO do that. That is what we're paying them for.

Have EMO get a list of generators that are available on a rental basis in the Province of Manitoba, in Brandon, in Thompson, in Dauphin, in The Pas, in Winnipeg. Have that list available so that EMO , when they receive a phone call of an emergency nature - and even though the Minister is nebulous as to what he considers to be emergency, there were genuine emergency situations as short as 24 hours after the power went out. These people, when they phoned, should have been able to rely on EMO to provide them with advice. Hydro, as I said, wanted no part of it. They didn't have standby generators.

They made that perfectly clear to me. They said, do not mention us, because we are swamped and they were and they did a tremendous job in putting service back in throughout this province. They deserve a lot of credit and congratulations for that, as they did in 1977. But here, Sir, I submit is the legitimate role of EMO . An ice storm is an emergency because the farm community is isolated and often if you're at the end of that line, you can wait up to seven days, as happened in this last storm - six to seven days - before you get your power on.

If you have any livestock at all and if you haven't got a big livestock operation, you do not go into the $3,000 or $4,000 necessary to buy a stand­ by generating unit. Those people need the backup services of EMO and we're not talking about an expensive operation, we're simply talking about taking an hour of time, or two hours of time, and canvassing various suppliers throughout the province, getting them to give you a list, a 24-hour number where they can contact the manager after hours, so that people who need emergency stand-by generators can phone EMO through their councillor and get that information.

If that had been in place, Mr. Chairman, we wouldn't be here discussing the role of EMO tonight, we would know what the role of EMO was. I seriously suggest to the Chairman that he give thought to that and he implement that, because it would be a very valuable service to those Manitobans who find themselves without electric service because of ice storms. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank the honourable member for his suggestions. I think that 1228

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 there certainly is merit in having a list, as well as having that identified in the emergency plans, which has been the case where they don't exist at this time, certainly a list such as he's mentioning would be helpf ul, particularly in the case with power outages, where I think it does affect the farming community in a very unique way. I believe there's some room for considering that.

I would point out though, that the individual who called EMO would have done so - it was mentioned by the honourable member 18 months ago - which would have been of course, perhaps before the election even, and I would point out that the situation then existed previous to, and certainly before I was in charge of this department and even my colleague before me. However, I don't want to feel that was the fault of any particular government, it's jus t the fact that if that was not recorded, it is unfortunate.

Maybe even perhaps it was felt by individuals at EMO that it was not part of their particular role at that time, but I think they should have had that information if it was provided and I would like to look into that situation and find out why that wasn't recorded and was not available. As the honourable member said, it could perhaps supplement any additional information that would be available from other sources, if EMO did have that kind of information available. So I think that private sources should be included, as well as the government departments.

I can say that the government departments are compiling lists of equipment that they have available for use in emergency situations, and we should also have information on private sources of this kind of equipment that could be used in various kinds of emergencies, and it certainly could be made available quickly to the municipalities for use in their emergency plans in developing them, and also for those where emergency plans do not exist. So I think there's merit in the suggestion by the honourable member and I will consider that. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I'd appreciate if the Minister would do that.

We're not talking about the fault of the Minister in this case. I believe that he probably didn't even know there was an emergency situation that particular weekend, so I'm not faulting the Minister. I'm just saying that it is a procedure that he should instruct EMO to undertake, because it would not cost anything and it would be of immense benefit. Can I ask the Minister if he received a copy of a letter that I got a copy of. The date is photostated out, but it's about March 11th, regarding the activities of one of the EMO officers. It was a letter addressed to the Premier. Did the Minister get that letter? HON.

J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I guess I would have to have more detail on that letter. I don't recall at this time having received that particular letter, although it may have been copied. The honourable member would know if it's been copied to my office. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, the only copy on it is to myself and it is a letter to the Premier.

It's complaining about one of the EMO officers and I'll provide the Minister with a copy of this providing it will photostat - it's a handwritten letter - and I will point out that it is unsigned because it's a complaint by the neighbours against an EMO officer, indicating some of the activities he undertook during the time of the emergency. I'll provide the Minister with a copy of this and I would appreciate knowing whether the Minister had been instructed by the Premier to investigate this, because some of the allegations in here are fairly serious. HON. J. PL OHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, sinc e the honourable memb er ha s provided additional information on that letter, I recall that letter and I believe that, as I recall, we're looking into that situation. MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the Mini ster of Na tural Resources wish to speak? The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, would the Minister be able to provide us with a report on his findings on this letter, because as I say there are some fairly serious allegations made in here? Would the Minister provide us with a report as to the outcome of his investigation on this letter? HON. J. PLOHMAN: In terms of the individual name, Mr.

Chairman, I don't know whether it would be appropriate to provide that publicly, but I certainly would be able to provide any background to that incident to the member. I don't even recall whether the individual officer was named in that letter, but I would provide background on that incident if it can be substantiated. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, no, there is no name mentioned, but there is a licence number of the car that the man drives and there's also an address that the man liv es at and his position is identified, so it wouldn't be terribly difficult to find out who the individual was and I'm not concerned about who it is.

But the neighbours in here apparently have been dissatisfied for some time about just how great a role this individual has in EMO and if that's the kind of allegations that are being made, I think the Minister owes the individual, so accused, a proper hearing and also the taxpayer an explanation, as to whether any of these allegations are true. HON. J. PLOHllll AN: I think, first of all, it's premature to say at this time, because we have not had a report on it, in terms of whether this information is true or not.

As you said it was an anonymous letter, so I can't even provide .a letter answering the allegations to the indiviual who wrote the letter. So we would certainly follow it up, I can assure the member of that, and I would be prepared to provide any information to the honourable member, if he so wished, to come and see me at some time if he felt there was information that he wanted on it. I don't think that it would be appropriate for me to send information on that individual out to him, or to make a decision on that, until such time as I've seen the results of the report. MR. D.

ORCHARD: I will wait with patience, Mr. Chairman. MR. CH AIRMAN: 1.(e )(1 )-p ass; 1.(e)(2)-p ass; 1.(f)(1 )-p ass; 1.(f)(2)- pass; 2.( a)(1) - The Member for Virden. 1229

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, we are approaching that area where the Minister has promised to give us some information. I realize we won't get that information for two or three days, so we are prepared to go ahead pending the information being available to us and we can probably raise our questions then on the Minister's Sal ary. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I do have I believe most of the information available that the honourable member was asking for. I'm not certain that we have it in the form that he would want it.

There's certainly a great deal of information in those areas and first of all, we have a list of all of the buildings that are in the Energy Program that we discussed earlier. I have that list that I can provide for the honourable member. I also have information on the daily temperatures for each of the years involved put out by Environment Canada and it's a monthly record of temperatures for all the months of the year that he was asking for.

We also have a breakdown on individual buildings of the amount of energy that was used, the hydro, gas, oil and so on in 1979 and as well in 1982-83, and costed out to today's rate so that we could project a cost avoidance for each of those buildings. Now each of those buildings comes in a volume like this with a monthly report and the list of buildings is somewhere in the area of, it must be 50 or 60, so there are volumes of material a'nd I don't know exactly how much detail the honourable member wanted to cover this subject at this time.

So I think we'd have to get some clarification from the honourable member if he wanted to have all that information made available to him, to peruse at his leisure. He could certainly contact my staff if he wanted to. I have questions on that, Mr. Chairman. As well I have figures for various locations in the province: Thompson, Winnipeg, Brandon, Churchill, Dauphin, The Pas, on the degree, day-per-month chart.

It is a chart that's used in energy management to determine the variance of the temperature from 18 degrees celcius, which is the average temperature that the buildings would be kept at, and that is computed for all days, whether it be winter or summer and they're able to determine the variance for each month, then for each year and you can get a total and compare it from one year to the next. That seems to me like the kind of information that the honourable member would have wanted, to be able to compare logically in terms of energy the variance from 1979-80 as to 1982-83.

It also gives the norm for that so we can see whether 1979-80 varied further from the 18 degrees celcius overall than 1982- 83 and those units would indicate the amount of energy required. We have to remember that it's not only in wintertime, that if it's colder we require more energy, but also in summer if it's very hot that more energy is required. So this shows all months of the year and I think it is a worthwhile piece of information for the honourable member. So those pieces of information are available and certainly that is not the only item that is considered under this item in the Estimates.

I don't know exactly why the honourable members would want to hold back on the discussion at this time. I can point out as well that we could also discuss this matter under Energy Management which is 0) under the same appropriation. So perhaps the honourable members would like to focus on Energy Management's program at that time as opposed to now. MR. H. GRAHAM: On the contrary, Mr. Chairman, we wanted to expedite the affairs and carry on as quickly as possible with the opportunity to peruse the information after we have adjourned this evening, and then probably the next time we meet.

If we've gone past the item in the Estima tes we're not concerned, we can still do it under the Minister's Salary. So we don't want to hold things up in that respect. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm just not clear what exactly then we're passing over at this time. MR. H. GRAHAM: First of all, we would like to see the

summary and I presume the Minister is providing the information only on certain buildings, certainly not on all buildings. Is that correct? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the list of all buildings that are included under the Energy Program is being provided. In terms of the detail in consumption and costs for each building, I've given one, the Central Powerhouse. I believe it's one building that I've given there. But there is the same information for each building if any of the honourable members would like that information. MR. H. GRAHAM: This is only for owned buildings, there's nothing on leased premises here.

HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, that is where we are applying our Energy Program, on our own premises. MR. CHAIRMAN: Pass? 2.(a)(1)- pass; 2.(a)(2)- pass; 2.(b)(1)-p ass; 2.(b)(2)- pass; 2.(b)(3) - The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: What's the big decrease in Workshop Minor Projects? HON. J. PLOHM AN: Mr. Chairman, I'm trying to determine. I believe the honourable member is on 2.(c)(3) rather than 2.(b)(3). Is that correct? MR. D. ORCHARD: Oh, sorry. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, perhaps when we are dealing with Physical Plant, this might be the proper place to raise the issue of the physical changes that occurred in the Legislative Chamber. Or is there another place that you would like to discuss it? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I believe we could discuss that particular item under Construction Acquisition which will be at the end of the Estimates 1230

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 and we'd certainly have the information available at that time. MR. H. GRAHAM: Under Construction Acquisition? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, that would be 6.(

a) Expenditures Related to Capital Assets, Acquisition/ Construction of Physical Assets. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, perhaps it might be more appropriate under Project 4, dealing with space requirements for the various departments. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, this is dealing with the Legislative Chamber, so I don't think that would be appropriate to deal with space requirements under MR. H. GRAHAM: We will wait then until 6.(a). MR. CHAIRMAN: What is the pleasure of the . . ? MR. H. GRAHAM: Go ahead, proceed. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Stu rgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, the Preventative Maintenance remains at exactly the same amount as it was last year, and with the knowledge of increased prices, parts, anything we purchase today has pretty well gone up in price over last year, where is the decrease in maintenance? What will not be taken care of as well as it was last year because the price is exactly the same? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we have allowed for tha t inc rease in another appropriation, in Acquisition/Construction, for repairs and it will be shown in there.

There is an increase of approximately $240,000 in that area that also deals with repairs primarily to existing buildings. That is in addition to the Preventative Maintenance Program listed under this appropriation. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you. MR. CH AIRMAN: 2.(b)(3)- pass; 2.(b)(4)-p ass; 2.(c)(1)- pass; 2.(c)(2)-pass; 2.(c)(3) - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Just hold it now, Mr. Chairman. How come that project, Workshop Minor Projects, Mr. Chairman, what's the nature of the decrease, $500,000- plus decrease in Workshop Minor Projects? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, there was a double accounting that was taking place for salaries in that appropriation in previous years, and the Auditor has requested that we take that amount out of there because salaries were accounted in that figure of 870,000 in previous years as well as in the salary app ropriation for tha t area. So it was a double accounting and this accurately reflects the amount that is needed for Workshop Projects. MR. D. ORCHARD: Then where do we assume the salaries which, if I understand the Minister correctly, account for the reduction of $500,000.00?

Where do we find this $500,000 worth of salaries, in what line of the Estimates? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, it was being shown, of course, in 2.(c)(1), as well as in 2.(c)(3) in previous years. Now it is just being shown in 2.(c)(1). I might also point out that we have cut a number of SYs, I believe 20 from that appropriation as well, so you would not see a drastic change in there. That's why you don't see a drastic change in that appropriation. MR. D. ORCHARD: From the Minister's explanation, does one assume that the deficits - how long has this double accounting being going on, a number of years? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I understand it has been going on for many years. MR. D. ORCHARD: Do we assume then that the deficit during the four years of our government was overstated then? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I would imagine whatever applied during the four years of your government also applied to our government last year. MR. D. ORCHARD: Then that means that your deficit was only $494.5 million in one year, where ours was $467 million over four years then. - (Interjection) - Oh, Peter. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to get into that particular area.

If the honourable member wishes to continue to talk about deficits at this particular time, that certainly is his prerogative. MR. D. ORCHARD: I want to thank the Minister for that. I just want to make sure I understand the Minister correctly, that this $541 ,000 is a combination of 20 less people being salaried in that appropriation. Now does one assume that means 20 fewer staff people in the whole department? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to clarify here in terms of the question.

I stated at the outset in my statement that there were 12 fewer SYs, 12 fewer employees in the whole department, and I explained how tha t figure was arrived at. The honourable member is correct in saying that there is a reduction of 20 in this particular appropriation. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(c)(3)-pass; 2.(c)(4)-pa ss; 2.(d)(1) - the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: I'll wait for (d)(2), Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(d)(1)- pass; 2.(d)(2) - the Member for Virden. 1231

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 MR. H. GR AHAM: Mr. Chairman, we have a considerable increase here in Leased Accommodations. Could the Mini ster give us the increased accommodation that has been required this coming year as compared to last year? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J. PL OHMAN: Mr. Chairman, approved in last year's Estimate was 1.08 million square feet at a cost of $8.481 million.

Adjus ted to this point in time with all transactions to March 31, 1983, the square footage is 1.146 million square feet, an increase of 65,885 over the previous year and budgeting projections by March 31, 1984, is 1,235,382 which is another increase of 89,263. So the total then for '83-84 is the 1,235,382 square feet that are required for $10.817 million. There are a number of specifics and I don't know whether the honourable member was ask ing for individual increases for programming and consolidation of space and so on, requests and requi rements over this past year.

If he wants to go into the individual leased accommodations that have been added I would be able to provide him with that information. MR. H. GRAHAM: If the Minister would, we would appreciate it. MR. CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, it's interesting to note that the demands for space of government are, to my rough calculations exceeding the general growth of government which is running at between 17 and 18 percent.

We're projecting a growth of some 384,000 square feet of leased space which would mean that the demand for growth in physical space, in this particular area of leaseholds is running pretty high. What is it 25, 30 percent additional space requirments? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Did the honourable member want the percentage increase in square footage for this particu lar year over last year? Is th at what the honourable member's asking for? MR. H. ENNS: That's right. My rough calculations say that you're, you know, taking your 60 and 82,000 in the last two years is some 384,000 feet. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: There's an increase of 27 percent in the costs of rentals over the previous year. MR. H. ENNS: No, but we're talking square footage here now. We're talking square footage, actual space. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we haven't computed the percentage increase in the number of square feet. I just listed the totals and the number of square feet increase so that's easy to compute but I do not have the percentage increase. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, another figure in the area that is always of some interest to the taxpayers of Manitoba who foot the bill, of your total space that government now rents, leases, in one form or another, which is some 1, 146,000 square feet, if I understood the Minister correctly, a few moments ago, how much of that space is empty at this particular time for which the taxpayers are paying rent? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: There's less than 1 percent of usable space is empty at this particular time, at any time, but there's other space that's not usable, some of it that's being held for renovations, some of it are historical buildings and so on. But the amount of usable space is less than 1 percent that is vacant or not being utilized. MR. H. ENNS: Can the Minister assure me that is, you know, 1 percent sounds reasonable. Let's understand though that's talking in excess of 100,000 square feet of space. One can visualize the amount of empty office space that taxpayers are having to pay rent for.

Can the Minister simply indicate to me that is up or down from the previous year, or what direction is that going? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I'm advised that the government has over the years traditionally been around the 1 to 2 percent range. We are currently at .7 percent, just to clarify further from what I said earlier .7 percent, a total of 56,000 square feet. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I ask these questions because they are, you know, one of constant concern, and one where the management of the department has to constantly be concerned about in terms of the acceding to additional request for space, the additional request from departments coming in as they do to this department, in this case for an additional 60,000 square feet in the past year, and a projected 84,000 additional square feet of space this year. You know, the department is called upon to exercise all its discipline to ensure that 1 percent figure is kept as low as possible.

I know that I can say with some assurance, and comfort, that the figure is an awful lot better than that of the Federal Government, in Ottawa, where entire blocks, and towers are standing empty due to the kind of politicking that goes around in Ottawa, at the expense of the taxpayers in moving, you know, departmental agencies and offices around. But I simply say to the Minister, and I know that he takes it in the way it is meant, that this is a particular area that he wants to pay continuing attention to, to ensure that spending of the taxpayers dollar is kept to an absolute minimum in this area. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I certainly share the concern of the honourable member. I just want to advise him as well of the .7 percent that I referred to that is currently vacant, approximately 2/3 of that is currently under renovation for use, and so that is a natural amount that is always necessary. During turnover and renovations that are necessary there's going to be a small portion of square footage that is not being used because renova tions are taking place on a constant basis for movements of departments and branches and new programs and so on. So certainly 1232

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 it is being kept to a minimum and I believe that we are doing everything we can to keep this from expanding. MR. CHAIRMAN: What is the pleasure of the committee to 2.(d)(2)- pass; 2.(e)(1)- pass - The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Just on the whole appropriation (e). When is Employee Housing used and where is it? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Traditionally, Mr.

Chairman, Employee Housing has been provided for members of various department employees when housing has not been available from private sources, or the employee is on call at a hospital, correctional institution, provincial park, or so on, or the employee is subject to frequent transfers. So there's a number of departments that currently have empl oyee un its. There are 127 un its; 109 permanent houses, and 16 mobile homes, 2 apartments that are included in the total of employee units and they're spread throughout the province.

Some of them are located in remote areas, certainly where the issue of supplying alternate housing for employees is a very important factor and where frequent transfers occur where it would be very difficult to provide housing. Natural Resources is one of the departments that utilize a number of employee housing units as well as Communi ty Services has them, Department of Health, Department of Highways, Labour and Manpower and so on.

So we have attempted to cut back on the number of units that are available, particularly where these criteria do not apply and we are attempting this year to reduce the number of housing units in several areas. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(e)(1) - the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, in this area of Field Services, in the past there ha ve at times been substantial Special Warrants and this applies overall in the area of Field Services. Perhaps the question would best have been asked und er Exec utiv e Administration, but maybe the Minister would answer it here.

In any case, can he tell me approximately what the extent of the Special Warrants were in this area, if any, in 1982-83? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I will attempt to get tha t information as soon as possible for the honourable member. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(e)(2)- pass; 2.(f)(1) - the Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister that had preceded the present Minister, on the matter of Security Services, made very pontificating announcements about the substantial amounts of money that would be saved by discontinuing the awarding of contracts for Security Services to other than government employees staff and he embarked upon an ambitious program to reduce the requirement for outside private service agencies to provide some security services that the government and its attendant buildings required.

Can the Minister indicate to me what has transpired in the year or six months sinc e the former Mini ster made those pronouncements in the House? I believe the figures that he used in the House in announcing this change of policy were in the range of $2 million that were to be saved. I don't see that kind of saving anywhere here in the Estimates, but perhaps I'm not looking at the right place. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I guess maybe the honourable member is - I don't recall ever the previous Minister saying that there was going to be substantial savings or any savings by going to in-house delivery of the Security Services. In terms of the actual dollars paid for Salaries, there were a number of SY's included in the last year's Estimates.

There has been no increase this year but, last year, there were a number added, a number of buildings that did revert to in-house security services to improve the quality of service, at the same time providing employees with the same salaries that they were receiving, that other Civil Service members were receiving in other buildings employed by the government. So certainly there has been a number added in the previous year and there was not a saving in terms of dollars for Salaries. I don't believe the previous Minister ever did indicate that there would be any savings with regard to Salaries. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, through you to the Minister, I don't have the documentation before me or the specific press release before me. Indeed, as I recall it, it was a Ministerial statement made to the House announcing a very specific change in policy and my recollection certainly is - and I remind you, Mr. Minister, I sit somewhat further away from the Honourable now Minister of Transportation than you do. That claim was indeed made in the House and I will do my research and pursue it on another occasion. Mr.

Chairman, moving on in a similar related field and you may wish to rule me out of order, although I'd rather suspect you won't because we are being so agreeable today. I notice in the papers, it comes under the entire Appropriation of Field Services. I, perhaps, should have raised it a little earlier though, but it's related in the same way of contracting out certain services. In this case, we're dealing with Security. I note that ads are appearing in the paper from time to time under your signature calling for tendering. In this case, it's janitorial services.

Would the Minister care to express current government policy in this regard as well as in the particular area that we're dealing with, Security Services? Does the government still pursue what, in my sense, was a pretty reasonable and justifiable policy and that is, where it makes sense, to employ and to contract out to the private sector janitorial services, security services? I will be satisfied if this Minister simply restates that policy that was pursued by such notable Ministers as myself or the Member for Pembina when we were last in office some 16 months ago. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, with the indulgence of the members and I would be pleased to answer the 1233

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 question just asked by the honourable member, but there was a question just asked a few moments ago by the Member for Turtle Mountain with regard to the Sp ecial Warrant for the Department of Government Services and Field Services in particular. The Field Services Division has a Special Warrant of $662,000 this past year and almost all of that was for leased space accommodation. I could go on with regard to the previous question that was asked and that is that we have continued the policy that was announced by the previous Minister, Mr.

Uskiw, last year, that we would be reverting to in­ house security and maintenance in larger buildings in Winnipeg and Brandon, but not in the rural communities and smaller communities in rural areas where some of the private contractors would depend a great deal on the contract they had with the government. So we have not terminated those contracts. We have recognized the sensitivity of that area and we have instead only reverted to in-house with regard to buildings over 30,000 square feet approximately in Brandon and Winnipeg. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, as indicated, I will have to pursue the specific statements made by the previous Minister, Mr. Uskiw, and attempt to reconcile them with what this Minister is now telling us, particularly with respect to suggested savings to the taxpayers in the new policy guidelines as set out by Mr. Uskiw. Mr. Chairman, again on Field Services, General Maintenance, I wish to relieve myself of a complaint that has been growing and that is the manner and way in which this building, the Legislative Building, is being looked after.

I appreciate that it's not entirely - you know, the issue didn't resolve while you were under your ministry. Indeed, I'll acknowledge that we were running into that difficulty and it has to do with labour contracts having to do with the maintenance and cleaning of this building. But I register the strongest possible protest about what's happening to this building. This building should not be cleaned before 12 o'clock midnight. What's happening now is th at the buil ding is constantly dirty.

Washrooms are cleaned at 10:00 and 11:00 o'clock in the morning; caucus rooms, offices are cleaned at 1:00 or 2:00 o'clock in the afternoon. I assume the same thing is true for Minister's office, so the net result is the building always looks dirty. You used to be able to walk into this building in the morning and the halls were clean; your caucus rooms were clean; your offices were clean; your washrooms were clean.

One did not find it unreasonable that by 4:00 o'clock, or 3:00 o'clock even, the amount of traffic this building sees from time to time that things got used-looking and the maroon carpets as you walked in the front door had the footsteps, the imprints of the many worthwhile citizens that come and see and do business with the government from time to time. What's happened now is that the building is dirty all the time.

I know the Minister will tell me they're spending exactly the same man hours in cleaning this building, you know - and I don't want to become ideological about that - but that's the whole problem with the socialist system, you see. You put in the exactly the same hours, the same cost to do something, but you don't do the job. The building's a mess. Not only that, it's dangerous. My colleague, the Member for Fort Garry, slipped in negotiating the wet stairs that are now mopped at 2:00 o'clock in the afternoon, at 10:00 o'clock in the morning and severely sprained his ankle. Mr.

Chairman, when you consider that he is, after all, among others, considered to be a potential leadership candidate. The fact the way the maintenance is being carried out in this building is a mean and underhanded attack upon my colleagues and I don't think it's fair. Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm attempting to make a point and I think the point is being understood by honourable members.

The building is being used, particularly when we are sitting in Sessions and as these Sessions get later, it would be pleasant to walk into this building, into our caucus rooms, into our individual offices, and to start the day off with your wastebaskets clean, your asht rays cleaned. With the building general ly, it's hallways. - (Interjection) - I know, you don't let anybody smoke in your office. But an yway, Mr. Chairman, the Mini ster of Na tu ral Resources is distracting from my otherwise serious complaint. I know the Minister has a problem.

It is obviously a negotiated labour contract that says that the cleaning will take place during normal working days, whatever it is, 8:30 to 4:30 or 5:00, but I think that this building is different from other buil di ngs. I think th at consideration should be given and indeed the additional cost, minimal as it might be, for differential night work. I recognize that in making this case that there would be some additional cost involved. I say to you, Mr. Minister, with all joking aside, that surely you have noticed it. Well, maybe not.

This was starting to creep into the system in the last little while, but I can assure you that some years ago one really felt good about walking into this building first thing in the morning. You don't do so now. The building, as I said, constantly looks dirty; yet, I'm sure that the same amount of man hours, or close to the same amount of man hours, are being spent in the cleaning of the building. I would really say to you, Mr.

Minister, you know, there's an opportunity in every department to rise to the occasion, to make your imprint in the department, to do something grand, something that you'll be remembered for by future visitors that come and visit us and indeed those of us that have to work in this building. If you took this situation in hand, sat down with the MGEA, told them your problem, worked out a solution to the problem, and in my judgment the solution is simply this, that we have to revert back to night cleaning of this building. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I'm very pleased that the honourable member is concerned about me making an imprint. I know that the janitor's file has certainly worked on this and I finally found out who the janitor is on television here today. I just didn't recognize him before. HON. A. MACKLING: They say he's a good actor, too. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I would say though, tha t I appreciate the honourable member's opinions rm the 1234

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 cleaning of this building and I would hope that he would feel free to let me know his opinions on these things at any time. Certainly with our offices being wide open to the public and encouraging people to come into this building, there is more traffic in the building. I believe you've heard of the open-door policy. We certainly encourage people to utilize the building and to come into it, and I think that might lead to some of the observations that the honourable member has made.

But I certainly have not heard - I don't know that this is the prevailing opinion of employees that work in here, certainly the y seem to be ple ased to see the maintenance staff at work during the day. They certainly come in early enough, and the offices are cleaned early in the morning and the hallways, starting I believe at 6:30 in the morning.

So either the honourable member is a very early riser and gets here before they can get the job done or else he's here late at night, and of course from the day's activities the hallways are a little bit dirtier in the evenings, obviously, because they don't begin cleaning till the morning. However, I don't believe that the overall impression has been left with the public that the building is not clean. Agai n, I will just mention, in terms of the employees, it was not a contract that was agreed on; it is not in contract that the cleaning is being done during the day.

It was discussed; the emp loyees are definitely in favour of it. They are very pleased that they can work during the daytime and I belie ve that we get better performance. They are happier at their work and I bel ieve we ha ve less sick time, certai nly better performance, as a result of having day cleaning in this building as with all buildings, so I would not apologize for moving to day cleaning. In addition to saving energy, it's certainly been a morale booster for the emp loyees. If the honourable members have a question or two yet, I would be pleased to entertain that.

I would hope that we could have committee rise shortly then. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to add a word to what my colleague, the Member for Lakeside has said, and respond to some extent to what the Minister has said about the morale and the working conditions of staff and so on. I happen to be one of those who normally comes into the office at 7:30 or thereabouts in the morning, because it's that first hour or hour-and-a-half or so in the morning when one is able to get things done.

That happens to be the time, shortly after that, when the office is cleaned. I like to see people, the people who do the work are very pleasant people and do a good job and so on, but when you've got vacuum cleaners running up and down within the office and that sort of thing, it is rather difficult for people like myself to do the work. It's always been my view that the building is here for the accommodation of people such as ourselves and the government staff to accomplish their work and the services that are provided are there to facilitate that and not the other way around.

It may seem like a minor thing, but I don't think it should be treated too lightly. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I hope I didn't leave the impression that we were dealing with this particular issue too lightly. I think it is very important and I am pleased to see that the honourable members have raised their concerns. I think that no matter what time you have cleaning, you'll have some people who like to be in working, and you will affect certain people who like to stay up all night and work, with cleaning and vacuum cleaners, as well as those who come in early in the morning.

So I think you'll have those problems no matter what

schedule you have, and you have to look at the benefits that offset those drawbacks. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(f)(1) - the Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I'm sorry that the Minister either hasn't observed what happens in this building or simply refuses to, because I will tell him that tomorrow my office gets cleaned at 10 o'clock in the morning and the back entrance gets cleaned usually around noonish and that means that when the subsequent traffic that still comes in during the day and then at 4:30 they leave during the day, that's the condition of the hallway and the entrances when we come back to work in the morning. The point that I was making, that the building never looks in the shape that it ought to be in.

The Minister can observe that at about 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock in the morning, they will be swabbing the hallways here. Now they may start on the third floor at 7 o'clock, or they get down to the second floor at 10 o'clock - I don't know - or at different times, but the net effect of it is, is that the building never presents itself in the way this beautiful building should present itself to people when they enter the building in the mornings. Certainly the building will show the wear and tear of traffic towards the end of the day, that's to be expected.

But you do not come into this building in the morning, either in the front or in the back, where you have the feeling that, hey, you're walking into a building to do a day's work, that has been properly cleaned. This is not directed against the staff.

The staff are certainly doing every bit as much work as before and I acknowledge it - sure, perhaps it's a morale booster for them working in the daytime rather than at night - but the net effect of it is a shame because it is the pride and joy of all of us and of all Manitobans, I might add, that the building always has that worn look, as a result of cleaning during the day. I ask the Minister to observe that during the next few weeks and days, to see whether or not what I have just put on the record is in fact the case. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to thank the honourable member for his suggestions and I will certainly consider them. We're always looking to improve the situation and I appreciate hearing his views, as I stated earlier. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(f)(1)- pass - The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I would like to go back to an issue that was raised by the Honourable Member for Lakeside, dealing with the Security Services and the fact that on buildings over $30,000, as the Minister has stated, in the City of Winnipeg, in the City 1235

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 of Brandon, the province has gone to hiring their own staff rather than contracting out, as had been the practice in the past. I would like to ask the Minister several questions about the results that have occurred since that time. We have noted in the Press in the past, where a member of the security staff recently was charged with some thefts in the Archives Building and I would like to ask the Minister if that particular member was one of the new staff that had been hired, or whether it was a member of the staff of longstanding. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I would be pleased to discuss that particular situation in depth with the honourable member, but I think with the time being 10:00 o'clock if they would not mind, we could deal with that on Thursday. We haven't passed any part of Security Services and I would think this might be an opportune time to have committee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: Wha t is the plea sure of the committee? A MEMBER: Committee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, R Eyler: Committee, come to order. We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture, Item 4.(d)

(1) Soils and Crops Branch, Salaries - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We were on the topic of special crops when we broke for lunch. I wonder if the Minister can tell me, as far as marketing is concerned, is he becoming actively involved and seeking markets for some of the special crops that we grow, namely, beans, and I would like to give an example of what is happening as far as the Federal Minister of Agriculture is corn:erned.

There was a surplus of white beans, and these just happened to be grown in the particular area that he is representing, and we had a Food Aid Program to one of the underdeveloped countries. We shipp ed whit e beans to that underdeveloped country, paid for by the Federal Government, in order to relieve the situation in this particular area. Now, the product that was wanted was not white beans, it was black beans or pinto beans or any other kind of beans but white beans. We have a surplus of black beans and pinto beans. As a matter of fact, last year's entire crop of black beans is still in storage.

I wonder if the Minister has ever made any presentation to the Federal Government to see if we couldn't move some of our beans or whatever special crops we have through some of these foreign aid programs. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, if the members wish to get into some detail in terms of marketing in the area of marketing that will be dealt with in two items after this one.

I am prepared to get into some discussion as to what work we've done in international marketing, what contacts we have made and some of the projects or advances that we are making currently in terms of international marketing, Mr. Chairman. So I would prefer to leave my remarks in terms of the promotion and marketing until we get to the marketing

section with respect to that question dealing with black beans, if that would be all right. MR. A. BROWN: Last year when we were on this particular item, if memory serves me correctly, we had some people out here who were involved with the Soils Branch with soil testing and so on. I see that this year we don't have anybody present. I would like to ask the Minister whether the shortage of nitrogen in the soil, whether that is province-wide or whether it is just in my particular area.

I had some soil testing done in the fall and soils which grew peas, beans, which usually are very high in nitrogen in the fall after you've grown a crop, there is almost no nitrogen at all this year. If that is the case throughout the entire province, then fertilizer dealers had better be made aware of this fact that we're going to need a lot of nitrogen. I wonder if the Minister could tell me whether this is a situation throughout the entire province. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, the releases to that effect have gone out from the department pretty weli indicating that it is a province-wide situation. I can tell the honourable member, in terms of our own situation in the Interlak e and in the oppo site end of the agricultural portion of our province, that we are as well short of nitrogen in terms of our soil testing results that we've gotten back. The department has made releases dealing with this question of fertilizer, testing and the like, but the precise situation is it's fairly general throughout the province. MR. A. BRO WN: I wonder then, Mr.

Chairman, whether the Minister has alerted the fertilizer dealers and the processors about the situation that a lot of nitrogen could be required so that they will have sufficient supplies on hand once we start spring operations. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that information is communicated to the dealers. While there may be from time to time shortages in particular areas for a short period of time, but we're advised that there are more than ample supplies of fertilizer available. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, a question to the Minister.

I believe that the Minister or his department has entered into a contract dealing with organic farming, I wonder if the Minister could provide us with some details. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, we do have a contract. In fact, there are two aspects of some work being done 1236

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 in examining the matter of organic farming in the province, trying to correlate existing data and examining some aspects of it. The study basically entails what has been going on, what information there is, some of the aspects of ongoing work done by individuals in the province, some of the data that is available and some alternatives. There is a regular monthly liaison between staff and the persons conducting the study.

They are also looking at, in part, in terms of the study as to what type of projects might be considered as pilots to be set up or co-operated with, with farmers looking at alternative farming practices. The study is not specifically directly related at just say organic farming - I guess that is the word that is used - but it's looking at alternate farming practices and all areas of examining whether input costs can be lowered and whether and how feasible it can be done on a larger scale than has been done up till now. MR. B.

RANSOM: Could the Minister tell us what the costs of the contract are and who's involved in carrying it out? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the individual who is involved is by the name of V. Scott and the cost of the contract is $47,000.00. MR. B. RANSOM: What was the term of the contract, the period of time? HON. B. URUSKI: It was a six-month contract. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, that's almost $8,000 a month according to my quick calculation. Why would a project of this nature be so expensive? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the contract does not involve only one individual.

There's more than one individual involved in the work in respect to this contract. I should get the breakdown as to the various cost components of that contract and the relations for him. If the member wants I will get that for him. MR. B. RANSOM: I'd be interested, Mr. Chairman, to have a little more detail on the contract and the projections and such. Could the Minister tell us then who the other people are that are involved on this study? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, in terms of staff time, I know there was economists time to be put in, and some other resource persons time in there, but those people that were involved I believe were not involved for the length of the time and depending who was involved at any particular time, but there was more than the contractor himself. MR. B. RANSOM: Are there other people involved in this contract then that are by way of student assistance or are they all professional subcontractors for example? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that most of the assistants are professionals but I'll have to check that out, Mr. Chairman.

MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, would the Minister undertake to get the details in respect to the study then of the people who are involved, the people who will have money paid to them as a consequence of this $47,000 contract because it seems that a six-month contract for $47,000 is, on the surface at least, rather a lucrative contract. It's quite a bit of money for a simple review of existing information, or to even to look at projects that are ongoing. We'll be back, no doubt, dealing with the Estimates on Thursday. Perhaps the Minister would have an opportunity to have that available by that time.

Could he tell us then what are the qualifications of Mr. Scott who is the person with whom the contract has been taken out? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I'll get those details for the honourable member. I don't have his background qualifications in terms of his academic qualifications here with me. MR. B. RANSOM: We'll be interested in seeing that, Mr. Chairman. The thing that I'm interested in here, is why it was necessary to get outside people to do this kind of work. I know that there are many capable professional individuals within the Department of Agriculture.

Perhaps the Minister could tell us now, or later, just why it was necessary to go outside of the department to have this kind of work done, because on the surface, at least, it doesn't sound like it's an especially technical or specialized type of work. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member should be aware that there are people who have been involved in organic farming around the province. The information that is generally available to those people, in terms of contacts with the department historically, I would say the relationship hasn't been of the utmost.

The terms of the proposal and the study was to raise the consciousness within the department and also liase with the farmers who are involved in organic farming. I believe a conference has been held with farmers, as part of the work that was undertaken as part of the stu dy. Those are some of the areas that this outside person has been involved and we have attempted, through this process, to basically raise the consciousness within the department to as well examine what we have been doing in the past and formulate our strategies after this study is complete. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Chairman, you should be able to raise quite a lot of consciousness for $47,000.00. How was this project initiated then, Mr. Chairman, if the department itself evidentally didn't initiate it, because they need their consciousness raised in this area? Did the Minister initiate this project? How did it come about? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, we received proposals from, in fact, a number of people dealing with this and the proposal eventually was accepted by the department. MR. B. RANSOM: Is the Minister telling us then that this was a sort of project that the Minister went out and sought proposals from the public?

Was it tendered, 1237

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 for instance, and how many proposals did the Minister have? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, we have two studies under way in the area and there were two proposals in two specific areas dealing with alternate methods of farming. MR. B. RANSOM: Who made the second proposal then, which the government is involved with? HON. B. URUSKI: Paul Robinson. MR. B. RANSOM: How much would the cost of that contract be then, Mr. Chairman? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the contract with Mr. Robinson, Mr. Robinson is a student at the University of Manitoba.

The study is in support of his thesis and the cost of the study is $9,000.00. MR. B. RANSOM: I take it then, Mr. Chairman, that this $9,000 is in addition to the other $47,000 and that the Minister had one proposal in one area and one proposal in another area. Now there are $56,000 worth of contracts that ·have been let here. Did the Minister seek other proposals before letting these contracts? HON. B. URUSKI: No, Mr. Chairman, I did not go out and seek other proposals in terms of other contracts. MR. B.

RANSOM: Did any member of his caucus or his backbench colleagues help bring forward these proposals to the Minister of Agriculture? Did the Minister of Agriculture go out and seek these or how did they come to him? How is it that these people were able to walk into the office of the Minister of Agriculture and get $5 6,000 worth of conscious ness raising contracts? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, as a matter of fact, we have had letters from farmers raising this issue in terms of the specifics of these two. As a matter of fact, I recall the V.

Scott proposal was - in fact, in a letter, I believe, to myself, early on after our election, that proposal was put forward. We did not use it at the time because we wanted to see what was happen ing internally and the like before we would consider those kinds of proposals. I believe that we, likewise, had approaches to our department from Mr. Robinson as well. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Chairman, then the Minister is telling me that this was strictly a question of these individuals coming forward with proposals to the Minister of Agriculture; that they were not promoted by any of his colleagues, not brought to his attention in that way; they were not tendered; he didn't seek out any other people to see if they might be able to carry out this work, especially the contract for $47,000.00. That's quite a bit of money in these days of repriorization, within the Minister's department, even.

So we would be very interested in knowing exactly how those contracts were let and if this now is a new policy that government has, that someone walks in off the street with a proposal to the Minister, that he might well accept that proposal without going out to see if there are other people who might be able to do the same kind of work. Or I'll be interested in seeing that the details of the study and the qualifications of the people carrying it out to know if there weren't already people existing within the Department of Agriculture who could accomplish this work for a substantially less expenditure of money.

HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the member should be aware that there have been representations made to me. In fact, I've received letters from a number of farmers in Manitoba who in fact have been promoting the individual in question in terms of indicating that they were well aware of his interest in the area of alternate methods of farming. I did receive a number of letters over a period of time indicating their support for this individual. I can tell the honourable member that I believe that there are members of my caucus that do know V. Scott.

I personally did not know the individual prior to assuming office and prior to seeing some of the submissions that were made to me and were put to the department. But in terms of promoting, I'm sure the honourable member is aware that from time to time there are a lot of people who are being promoted by a number of people, but I can tell him that I have received letters from individual farmers indicating that they knew this individual. They hoped that we would be able to provide some financial assistance to carry on some work and some of the proposals that he had made to us. There is no doubt about that. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I am intrigued with the Minister's response as to how the department got involved in some expenditure of some $56,000 and the questions that the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain is raising are really, in the first instance, the mechanics of it - I think that's always the job of the opposition to ask how the decision to expend these public funds are arrived at. But, Mr.

Chairman, I want to assure the Honourable Minister that the fact that there have been individual people in Manitoba and others that have long expressed an interest in organic farming, as it's known, is of course ... HON. B. URUSKI: You have some very good constituents. In fact, they were some of those that wrote to us. MR. H. ENNS: . . . not unknown to those who wrote to us.

I'm pleased to put on the record that I have such a constituent by the name of a Professor Grussendorf, who some time ago came specifically to the Interlake area, sought out a less than prime piece of land, had been settled on it to do precisely that, to prove to himself what can be accomplished through organic farming. This particular individual, I'm pleased to say, has the very highest of qualifications. I believe he was with the Faculty of Agriculture for some period of time, at the University of Manitoba. I believe he was originally brought in as a consultant to help with the Altona 1238

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 Oils eed Crushing Plant. He worked as well for the Manitoba Sugar Company and has done really some very wonderful things with respect to organic farming, taking off three crops of alfalfa, for instance, in my marginal Interlake land. Now, the reason I raise these questions, I think there is no intent in the questioning on this item to suggest that an interest in organic farming isn't a legitimate concern of the Department of Agriculture, or as the Minister puts it, one should heighten the concern within the Department of Agriculture with respect to organic farming. HON. B.

URUSKI: Alternate methods. MR. H. ENNS: But I simply put on the record that there are these kind of, in some instances, qualified individuals around, individuals who have some national - and I may say in the case of Professor Grussendorf - some international recognition. He's submitted papers on this subject matter, and again I would ask the Honourable Minister, particularly inasmuch as we share backyards together in the Interlake, for instance, was this particular individual given an opportunity to have some input into the development of the studies now under way by the department in organic farming?

I accept the Honourable Minister's acknowledgement that he would provide some of this further detail for us when next we meet, perhaps on Thursday, so I'm satisfied with him taking this as notice. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: In providing the information to us on Thursday, Mr. Chairman, will the Minister provide us with a copy of the contract, the terms of reference, study outline, that sort of thing? Could he undertake to provide that for us? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I'll have to take that under advisement.

The contract is not completed yet; the work is still being done. I'm not sure of the legal technicalities, but basically I'll take it under advisement. But certainly in terms of what's within the contract, I have no difficulty in providing that. MR. B. RANSOM: We were probably getting along much better with the Minister of Agriculture until he started to take advice from his colleagues on both sides, Mr. Chairman. There no doubt was a contract entered into ... HON. B. URUSKI: There is a contract. MR. B. RANSOM: .. . because he's talking about spending $47,000 in the one case. HON. B.

URUSKI: The study is - (Inaudible) -- that's all I said. MR. B. RANSOM: That's a fairly substantial amount of money; there was a contract entered into. There must have been terms of reference set out in that contract, what he wanted to accomplish, how the money was to be expended. As representatives of the taxpayers in the province, I see no reason why we should not be able to have that information and I'm asking the Minister, two days hence, if he'll provide that for us? That's all. I think he's prepared to do it, but his colleagues seem to be counselling him against it. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, the honourable member wishes to read into the situation. All I said and I say it again is that the contract is still in force. I don't know the legal ramifications of it, but basically I will provide the information that's within the contract. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, I would like to see the contract. If the Minister will provide that, fine. If he won't provide that, then of course we can use other means to get it, by means of filing an Order for Return.

I know that a government that likes open government as much as this one professes to do will make the information available, and of course it's much simpler to simply make it available and not make an issue of it. So, Mr. Chairman, on Thursday, I would like to either see the contract as such containing the terms of reference and the outline for the study or else have an answer from the Minister saying, no, I'm not going to provide it. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, that's fair comment and that's basically what I said.

If it is the norm to allow contracts to be tabled while they are in the process of being concluded, I certainly have no difficulty. I'm not sure that's the norm and that is why I indicated I want to check it out. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(dX1)- pass; 4.(dX2)- pass; 4.(dX3) - the Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Minister, if this is the right section, if he could tell us what's happening in Northern Development in the way of developing gardens in some of the remote reserve areas.

Some of the things that came out of the North Feeding the North Conference, I'm sure, were very worthwhile, Mr. Chairman. I know that two young ladies, three or four years ago, from the Mennonite Church went into Cross Lake and in a very short time with a couple of tillers had I think about 27 people in there raising vegetable gardens. The growth, I think, astounded them and we know that many years ago, they grew tremendous gardens in that particular area. I know, from some of my journeys up North, Mr.

Chairman, when you see them paying $26.00 a bag for potatoes north of Berens River when there is a great tract of land at Berens River that was under cultivation a few years ago when the former NOP administration set up a cattle operation in there that was an absolute disaster, that land has been allowed to grow back and I just wondered, under this contract, would they not be encouraged to grow garden crops and, in particular, potatoes that are so expensive in the North. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, this program covers two areas of program delivery in the North. Basical ly, 1239

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 it is carried on north of the 53rd parallel wherein we are providing services to small remote communities like Thicket Portage or to larger centres like Thompson and Flin Flan. The department assists in providing equipm ent and working, land tilling, greenhouse and garden demonstrations and technical backup. Mr. Chairman, 26 communities have been involved last year in the season in terms of youth gardening and gardening workshops in which some of these services have been provided, which resulted in 125 gardens in 15 communities in 1982.

The department is also involved in co-operating with the forage sect ion in the deliv ery of Joint Youth Ga rdening Activity in eight remote commu nities involving about 100 participants; and is also co­ operating with the Frontier school division's Nutrition Advisor Program in developing a horticulture resource person at the local level. Co-operation in the form of technical backup services is given to the provincial Sp ecial ARDA program in the deliv ery of their agricultural projects.

I could gi ve the member a list of the various communities in which the Northern horticulture program is being used and it includes communities such as Berens River, Brochet, Flin Flan, Grand Rapids, Hole River, Island Lake, llford, Matheson Island, Moose Lake, Pukatawagan, Red Sucker Lake, South Indian Lake, Wabowden. Those are just some of the communities in which these services are provided. MR. D. BLAKE: I thank the Minister for that information, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if he could tell us, does this include some of the tunnel greenhouses?

Could he give us some indication of what the production has been on these various projects? Has there been enough food produced to sustain the communities or partially sustain them from their fresh vegetables and their potato crop, or what has been the production results? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, part of this does include the use of the plastic tunnels in terms of crop production. I think it was in about 15 communities in which these demons trations were done.

These demonstrations and this activity has yet to satisfy the entire needs of communities, but it does satisfy partial needs of individual residents of those communities by the production of, say, potatoes and some of the crops that can be readily grown. I'm not sure that we would want to go in a very great way of expanding the program. I would think that any program expansion should be at the pressure and the desire of the local community to build up the needs, the ability to carry on and progress from where they're at.

So it should be an ongoing presence and added assistance so that, generally, the community desire and wants are there in terms of expanding this program. MR. D. BLAKE: Further to that, Mr. Chairman, I wonder if any of these funds are used in the greenhouse operation at Churchi ll. There has been a fairly substantial greenhouse operation there for a number of years. Also, could he tell me what studies have been done in the Sipiw esk area which has some of the richest soil in the northern part of our province, equivalent they tell me to the Peace River Valley?

Has there been any further research done in there with these funds and what have been the results? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, none of these funds are being channelled directly to the Churchill operation. However, technical advice and assistance is provided in an ongoing basis to anyone in the North and on assistance on an as-need basis. The question of the soil survey is one that is, I believe, within our Estimates. I would have to take as notice to provide the honourable member more detailed information as to the extent of the survey, the completion of the survey, and the advice and the precise details of it.

I'm not aware of the details of the survey right now and to what extent we've completed it, or at what stage we're at, but I will get that i'lformation for the honourable member. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(d)(3) - The Member for The Pas. MR. H. HARAPIAK: Mr. Chairman, I was present at the North Feeding the North Conference and it seemed to concentrate on the small individuals to grow the produce for their own use.

I was a bit surprised - seeing as the Conference was sponsored by the Conservatives when the Conservatives were in government - I was a bit surprised that they didn't appeal to the private entrepreneurs in the North to expand the size of these operations to supply the produce for all of the North. I am wondering if there is any effort on the part of the Department of Agriculture to expand this concept and to supply the produce for the North seeing as the transportation costs are rising at this time, if there are any plans by the department to increase the size of the operations that are in the North at this time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, we will be expanding the program in the North, but I am very hesitant to say that there should be just a great boom and expansion in any area of endeavour without the ability and the desire of local people to promote it and work their way through it. Because as we know, as the honourable mem bers knows, someone going into agriculture full time and making very large expenditures during these difficult times, no doubt even in the best areas of the province, are having great difficulties.

The areas of achieving self-sufficiency has to be, I believe, on a community-by-community basis, rather than very large commercial enterprises, because of many difficulties that may not be able to be technically overcome and financially overcome.

So we don't want to go in and promote some very large enterprise that may or may be doomed to fail right from the beginning, but we believe that people themselves building up their expertise, building up their confidence, and their ability to expand on an ongoing basis to meet the needs of their communities certainly is very worthwhile and we should encourage that and foster that. We are going to be providing some equipment use - availability of equipment to home gardeners and commercial growers. I understand that a rhomb disc will be provided for use by some commercial growers 1240

Tuesday, 29 March, 1983 and there are some requests on file, so we'll be able to provide some of that funding towards that in the north. We've also provided assistance for land breaking services for home gardens and community projects. We anticipate approximately 100 new gardens will be established possibly throughout this year in various communities in the north. So those kinds of assistance in land breaking will be provided. As well, as the honourable member talked about, small rototillers for general use are provided to the nut rition advisors in 14 commu nities, so tha t the community has the use of that kind o