VOL. 2 PRELIMINJl.RY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT H 0 USE

I) F ASS E '1 B L Y F0R. THE PERIOD: • 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. MONDAY, MAY 30 1977 t!O. 97

:1-f..ay 30' 1977 Tape No. 3388 NM- 1 The House met at 10:00 A.M. ~-1r. Speaker in the Chair. MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. member for LaPoile. }ffi.. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I would like to draw to the attention, Sir, of han. members of the House that the Ontario Humane Society - ---- --~--- --- - - has come out in favour of the seal hunt as being an essential part of our economy. I tried once before, Mr. Speaker, to get the House by leave to send a letter of appreciation to Mr. Tom Hughes, the President of the Asspciation. I could not get the unanimous consent,so I wrote Mr. Hughes myself.

But I believe now, Sir, that the House should recognize the fact that the Ontario Humane Society has come out in favour of the hunt,and I think we would be remiss in our duties, in our responsibilities as elected representatives of the people of this Province~if we did not recognize this very, very important and significant milestone in the raging controversy over the seal hunt. I do hope, Sir, that other humane societies,not • only in Canada but down south of the border and throughout the world,will follow the example that has been set by the Ontario Humane Society and come out in favour of the seal hunt.

The Ontario Humane Society, Mr. Speaker, not only said that it was an essential part of the Newfoundland economy, but that the seals were harvested in the most humane way possible. Of any animals in the world,they say that the seals were the ones that were harvested most humanely,and I believe, Sir, that we do owe a very great debt of gratitude to the Ontario Humane Society and I would like to move, Hr. Speaker, that the House send a letter of appreciation to Hr. Hughes and the members of the Ontario Humane Society and the Goverr~ent House Leader, the Acting Premier has agreed to second the motion. 9504

. !ay 30' 197 7 Tape No . MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR.. HICKMAN : Mr. Speaker, I thank the bon. gentleman from -LaPoile (Mr. Neary) for indicating to me prior to the opening of the House his intention to bring this motion before the ~House· which I am sure will receive the unanimous endorsement \without debate of hon. members. NH - 2 It is obvious that,by persistent efforts,eventually the message will be gotten across to the people of Canada,and obviously we have to convince Canadians first,that not only is the seal hunt conducted in a very humane manner but that it is a very essential and integral part of the economy and way of life of this Province. • 9505

May 30, 1977 Tape No. 3389 NM- 1 HR. HICIO'.AN: I say that it is essential to convince Canadians first, rtr. Speaker, because from time to time we have read statements from residents of other parts of this nation which indicate they are less than knowledgeable of the facts surrounding the seal hunt and the promotion and encouragement of that great industry.

Having convinced them, there is a much larger task ahead,and that is to satisfy the people of the free world in particular, certainly our neighbours to the South in the United States where the Premier made representation to the Presid~nt of the United States and a reply was received from the State Department which certainly did not indicate,in my opinion~a full understanding of the matters and issues involved. And of course in the United Kingdom "'Te have seen some very unsatisfactory statements and most unsatisfactory advertising and statements by people who refuse to accept the facts.

Consequently,when you have an organization as large and as prestigious as the Humane Society of Ontario,! think it is appropriate that this House indicate to that oganization our gratitude for their efforts on our behalf • • HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. H~.. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, I would like to say a word or t-.:.;o ~upport of the suggestion made by the han. gentleman from LaPoile (Hr. Neary) and,as with the ~inister of Justice,! will not debate it either and I hope I will not be as lengthy as he was in his statement.

I do w·ant to say though, Sir, that we very whole-heartedly agree with the suggestiou. I think that ~r. Hughes deserves the gratitude of every citizen of this Province,and I was not here on the day when the han. gentleman from LaPoile (Hr. Neary) asked unanimous leave,and I am not sure ~.;hy he did not get it - ~1R. NEARY: The member for Harbour Grace. HR.. ROBERTS : Oh,I see. But the point I was going to make was that I think he ought to have gotten it because I think Mr. Hughes 9506

May 30, 1977 Tape No. 3389 NM- 2 ~m.. ROBERTS : has shown the courage of his convictions. And it takes a great deal of courage often to take a stand that in the short run is unpopular,as it certainly is ~1r. Hughes' case ~with many of his supporters in the humane movement, the humane scciety movement throughout Canada. But he was convinced he was right and he said so and he took his stand accordingly,and I think that is a matter for admiration and it is certainly a matter of commendation by this Legislature.

The larger issue is the one that was adverted to by the gentleman from Grand Bank, the Hinister of Justice, and that is the question of taking the fight in defence of the seal hunt outside our own shores and inaeed outside our own country. Because, I~r. Speaker, there is no doubt - and if ever there was doubt,the events of the last Winter I think have removed it - but there is no doubt at all that the people of Newfoundland and Labrador support the seal hunt.

They realize it is an integral part of our way of life, an important part of our way of life and an important part of our economy • • But, Sir, the battle for the seal hunt will not be fought just within this Province or even within Canada. The real battle will be in the United States and in Europe and in the United Kingdom. And I want to say again as I said before,and I will go on saying it because I believe it is important, that the Government of this Province must take the initiative in this, They must gear themselves up to mount a campaign, a positive campaign, to tell the truth about the seal hunt.

I do not want to get into the line that we have been slandered. We have,but there is no point going over it at this stage~ and I simply \vant to say that there is a valid case, a strong case, a case in defence of the people in this Province and their seal hunt activities,and that case has not been presented. It is obviously not going to be presented unless and until we take the initiative. For example, 9507

Hay 30, 1977 Tape o. 3389 NM - 3 MR. ROBERTS: I spoke the other day with a friend of mine who works in the Canadian Embassy in Washington and as of then they had between 40,000 and SQ,OOO letters at the Canadian Embassy in Washington that had come in from all over the United States and almost all o·f them against the seal hunt. And this is the reaction to the sort of tns~dfous and cheap propaganda that is being stirred up by Mr. Davies and by his cohorts. We have got to counteract that, Sir. We have got to counteract it. It is far beyond the seal hunt, far beyond even the economic importance· of the seal hunt.

I think it is very much part of the way of life of this Province and I think we have got to stand up and be counted. Mr. Tom Hughes has done that and I think • 9508

Hay 30,1977 Tape 3390 - Morning AH-1 MR. ROBERTS: he deserves the gratitude of this House, Sir. For our part we are delighted to endorse the motion made by the gentleman from LaPoile and seconded by the Hinister of J~e House Leader for the government.

Sir, we support that and we also strongly support and urge the idea of an outgoing and an aggressive and a ~vell thought out campaign,and I hope that that campaign will go ahead, Sir, and it will get the best talent ~ve have- it will not be involved in nepotism,or not be involved in any of that kind of thing- it will be a well thought and constructive compaign.The quicker we can get it the better. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.member. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the other matter that I 'tvant to draw to the attention of the hon.members of the House is not as pleasant as the one that I just mentioned, Sir, and I - MR.

SMALLWOOD: Are we not goir.g to vote on the resolution? MR. NEARY: Well 9 do we have to take a vote first on the other one? MR. SPEAKER: We may take a vote. The question is, as I understand it~that an appropriate communication be sent to ~ Mr. Hughes thanking him a~d pointing out to him the sentiments ~ f the hon.members of the House of Assembly. Is th~ House ready for the question? Those in favour "Aye", Contrary "Nay", Carried. Hon.member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir.

The other matter I want to draw to the attention of ho~members of the House is the fact that this morning the ~inister of Transportation and myself attended the opening of ~earings of the House of Commons Committee, Standing Committee on Transportation and Communications. And I want this House, Sir, to - .----- Mr. Speaker, I raise a point of order here. MR.. SPEAKER: A point of order has come up. The hon.minister. MR. HICKMAN: We have been operating under rules this ~two or three years which seemed to have worked very satisfactory 9509

~1ay 30,1977 Tape 3390 - Morning AH-2 MR.. HICK¥..A..N' : with respect to Statements by Ministers etc., and it does appear to me as if what the hon.gentleman is leading into now is a statement and the rules .are very clear on that. MR. NEARY: No,it is not a statement. MR. HICKMAN: There is a provision under the rules for Ministers' Statements, It apparently is not a matter of privilege,it most assuredly is not a matter of privilege of the House, and I would draw Your Honour's at tent ion to it. MR. SPEAKER: Ho~Leader of the 6pposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order.

Whatever statement the gentleman from LaPoile is about to make,it is not a Ministerial Statement - it probably will be in due course, but it certainly is not at present. I am not sure in the procedural sense what it is we do ~vhen Your Honour calls Order at 10 o'clock these days.

It is by tacit consent that nobody has raised a point of privilege.As far as I know the gentleman from LaPoile does not intend to raise a point of privilege.In fact,most of the points of privilege,so- called,raised are usually an attempt to try and get back at • some newspaper report that in the view of the raiser of the point is inaccurate or is unfair,and is not really a point of privilege in the parliamentary sense.

What we do at this point is - and I think the precedents are clear, Sir, even if there is no rule on it-what we do at this point is raise formal matters which are normall y dis posed -----of quite rapidly, matters which are not among the six items listed in the regular routine order that Your Honour calls at the start of each session. So whatever it is that the gentleman from LaPoile wnated to raise , I do not think he is out of order in raising it until at least we know what it is.So I would suggest, Sir, that if the hon.member from Grand Bank has a point or order at all it is premature.

I think the gentleman from LaPoile is aware of the rules, he has been in the House a long 95i0

Y..ay 30,1977 Tape 3390 -Morning AR-3 ~fR. ROBERTS: time and shown a knowledge of the rules, I think he ought to ~t least be allowed to state what it is and then I have no doubt that it is not _something that falls in whatever category it is that we do recognize at this point in time, Your Honour would be the very first to say well that matter is not within the type of matter such as the Tom Hughes thing or the other matters which we deal with at the start of the day's session. I do not think it is a point of order as yet. MR.

SPEAKEB:: It is my understanding that when strangers are admitted and the House is in public session,the routine der of business as outlined on the 6rder Paper starting with Statements by ~1inisters is obviously the first matter of business. Hnn.members are aware that a point of privilege may come up at any time and indeed should come up as soon as possible after the alleged breach . of privilege has occured. ~ve are not in this case dealing with a matter of privilege to my understanding. I do not think the hen member rose on a point of privilege.

It is furthermore IllY understanding that anything which oreceeds :he calling of Statements by ~inisters apart from a point of 9511.

l-fay 30, 1977 Tape No. 3391 11.1}-1 - 1 HR. SPEAKER: privilege is a matter which is done by leave. This is usually for an hon. member to suggest a message of congratulations, of condolence, to point out some significant anniversary)or to point out something which he feels other hon. members should be aware of • . It is my understanding,though,that this is always by leave. I do not always ask is the hon. member speaking by leave because I think I can presume that all hon. members know it is by leave,and then the onus is on any hon. member to signify that there is no such leave.

As I understand it that is quite clearly the rule. Apart from a point of privilege anything and everything prior to Statements by Ministers is in fact by leave. So I ~vill now ask does the hon. member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary) have leave to continue? NR. MORGAN: For what? For what? ?:-fR. SPEAKER: I do not knm.i - leave to say what he is going to say. MR. NEARY: Well, ~ir. Speaker, my statement will be very brief, Sir, and I think the han.

Minister of Transportation will ~concur with me that we we~e both disgusted this morning, Sir, to '\: earn that the Standing Committee of the House of Commons on transportation and cqmmunications would only be spending a few hours in this Province, less than twenty-four hours in -------- Newfoundland, then flying over to St. John, New Brunswick and then spending four days in Halifax. This is typical, ~·fr.

Speaker, of the attitude that the people have U'J? in Ottawa tot·mrds Newfoundland; -that the general public of this Province were not given an opportunity- it was all arranged beforehand, the briefs that would be presented, it was all arranged beforehand - that the general public would not be perflitted to have any input, to be able to make a presentation to this Standing Committee because they would not be here long enough. As a matter of fact~they did the minister a discourtesy by only allowing the minister a half a!' hour,and the minister was making an excellent presentation in my opinion. 9512

Hay 30, 1977 Tape No. 3391 MR. NEARY: Fourteen members of the House of Commons, Sir, flew into Newfoundland with seventeen of a back-up staff, aboard a National Defence plane just to spend a few hours and then take off and go over to New Brunswick and spend the next four day s in Hal i f ax! I think it is disgraceful ,...... and this House should condemn the Committee for being so discourteous to this Province. 000 ~1R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate. NM- 2 MR. S}f..ALLWOOD: Hr.

Speaker, I wonder if you Your Honour and the House would indulge me for a moment, a little irregular but I think the House would be interested to hear of the death of a distinguished Newfoundlander tvho served as a member of the :l'ational-convention from ~·Jhite Bay ~-Tho was until recently a professor I think of Engli sh in Kingston, Ontario, the University of Queens. ------Ike Ne~vell was an outstanding member of the National Convention:- He had been a co-operative field man • with the Grenfell Organization for the whole Northern tip of Newfoundland and the Straits of Belle Isle anti he was an outstanding poet and he was a great idealist and it was a great loss to the new Province that just before it became a Province, although he had been a Confederate,he left Newfoundland and went back to college and then from there entered the University of Queens as an Associate Professor and ended up I believe as a full-fledged professor.

There are thousands, especially in Northern Newfoundland, and especially in the district represented in this House by the Leader of the Oonosition.~-rho just told rae a moment ago of Ike NeHell's . . ' death, thousands who will hear with deep regret of the death of a very brilliant Newfoundlander, Issac Newell. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. HR. HICKMAN: ~-1r. Speaker, I join with the han. member for T-.;.Tillingate --l (Mr. Smallwood) speaking on behalf of the Opposition when he draws 9513

~l ay 30, 1977 Tape No. 3391 NM - 3 MR. HICKMAN: to the attention of the House the death of the late Issac Newell,and I have to confess that I have oftened wondered what happened to that gentleman since the National Convention. Those of us who • 9514

May 30~ 1977 Tape 3392 PK - 1 Mr. Hiclanan: were ~roudly on the side of Confederation, _remember with a great deal of satisfaction the efforts and the work he did and the vie~o1s that he so ably articulated in the National Convention., which views at that time were carried to all residents of Newfoundland and Labrador. And most assuredly we join 1 on this side of the House,in the sentiments exnressed by the han. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood), and second the resolution of condolence to the family of the late Mr. Newell. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, my friend for Twillingate has spoken behalf of the Opposition in this matter, but I ~..rould like to say a ~vord,if I might,simply as the member for the Straits of Belle Isle,. As my friend for ~illingate mentioned, the late Isaac Ne~vell was elected to the National Convention to represent the then district of lvqite Bay, which I believe began at about Partridge Point - no,Cape St. John, I guess, and came all the way down to Cape Bauld or Cape Norman, all of the White Bay district now, a part of two or three other districts in ~he House of Assembly.

Isaac Newell is still remembered,and still fondly remembered by the -people in Northern Newfoundland, remembered as a Confederate, remembered as a member of the National Convention who represented a strongly Confederate area. If I am not mistaken,he either stood for election to the Convention as an avowed Confederate or early on announced his support of the Confederate movement ,and I believe was elected with a very large percentage of the votes cast by the electors in the district of ~.fuite Bay as it then ~vas.

I t -was one of the ~reat losses to Newf<mndland,as my friend from Twillingate has mentioned~that Isaac Newell decided at about the time of Confederation that his career lay not in public . life, Indeed, following his career took him away from Newfoundla-~d. He ~vent to Ontario and became a professor in Queen's University at Kingston, and I am told by friends of mine ~..rho ha-d been students there that he was a magnificent teacher, and deeply respected and deeply liked. 9515

May 30, 1977 Tape 3392 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: But, Sir, it as a man who came into the public life of this Province and served with notable distinction for a brief period that ~ve must remember him today. People in the North still remember him, and still remember him with affection. He served as a field ~·lOrker with the Grenfell Mission, and at one time the co-operative _movement in Northern Newfoundland and Southern Labrador was strongly entrenched, and men like Isaac Newell made it so.

He was a great friend of another National Convention member who served for many years in this House, the late Bill Keough, . and I have often heard Bill Keough talk with fond nostalgia of Isaac Newell. I guess the two of them as co-op men and as Confederates were soul mates in the Cor.vention;they obviously became fast friends. And I can remember Bill Keough saying time and time again that \vhat a contribution it would have been to public life in the Province of Newfoundland, Newfoundland and Labrador as we now are,if Isaac Newell had decided to stay here and seek election.

He doubtless would have been elected, and Hould have made an even greater contribution. Sir, atl of us, I think, it is proper that we join in rememberin g the \vork and contribution of a man ~.;rho served in the Convention. ~1 r. Newell is survived, I believe, by his wife and I would hope that the normal motion will go fo~ard from the Clerk in the people of Northern Newfoundland and Southern Labrador, I know that they would all want to be associated with it, Sir. Thank you. HR. SPEAKER: The sentiments of han. members have been noted, and a suitable communication will be sent to Mr. Newell's Y.ridou.

NOTICE OF MOTIONS ~ffi. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture . ~R. E. MAYNARD: Hr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrmv ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Forest Land (Managemen-t and Taxation) Act, 1974 and To Hake Other Statutory Amendments In Respect Thereto." (No. 67). - 9516

}fay 3 0 , 19 7 7 Tape no.3393 Page 1 - NM ORAL QUESTIONS: HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~1R.. ROBERTS: I told the minister not to ask a question, just to answer one-. }:IlL DOODY: By leave? 1-!R. ROBERTS: ~<Tell revert if it is okay- ~m. SPEAKER: Do we have leave to revert to routine procedure five? AgreedZ The hon. Hinister of Finance. MR. DOODY: I have the answers to two questions, Mr. Speaker.

I am not quite sure if they are on the Order Paper or if they were A--,1 They are dealt t with the Computer Services Centre, the cost, the contracts and so on. asked during the estimates of the Department of Finance. questions by the han. member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary), one ----:m. :ffiARY: It is on the Order Paper. :IR. DOODY: It is on the !Jrder Paper, is it? All the information is here, the names of the contractors, sub-contractors, consulting engineers, costs and so on.

And the other one was the questions by the same hon. member, the e, concerning the operations of - - ---- -··------ ---- ·-- • • the Atlantic Loto; the d1rectors, the amounts of monies involved, under what circumstances. But I think what the member was mostly interested in was the names of the distributors and the retailers and that list is attached for the amusement and entertainment of my hon.fri~ ~1R.NEARY: Now we want the list from Rural Development. ~1R. SPEAKER: Th~ han. Leader of the Opposition. ~m. ROBERTS : Mr.

Speaker, iJ.Y question 1Y'as intended for the Premier but he is not present, so perhaps the Hinister of Finance in his capacity as Chairman of the Board of Directors ,--- of Labrador Linerboard could answer. Can the minister tell us ---just "7hat the Premier is going to be discussing in Hontreal tomorrm¥" "Then he meets \vith Hr. Paul Demarais -not tomorrm.r. Yes, tomorrow, - - - - ----- ~ - _. # --- ------ - -------- -- Tuesday -when he meets with Mr. Demarais of the Power Corporation. ~-1R. SPEAKER: The han. Xinister of Finance. J:.fR. DOODY: No, I quite honestly cannot.

I did not realize the Premier was going to Hontreal to speak to Hr. Demarais tomorroH. I thought it was next '.reek. 9517

\ ---· Hay 30, 1977 Tape No. 3393 NM- 2 MR. ROBERTS: He has announced it is tomorrow. ::WIR. DOODY: Is it? :fR. ROBERTS: A supplementary, ~·fr. Speaker. ::.1R. · SPEAKER: A supplementary. l··1R. ROBERTS: Hr.

Speaker, the Premier,ar somebody in his behalf,has announced that the trip is tomorrow, Can the minister tell us whether there are any talks in progress or in contemplation to discuss with the Power Corporation- which of course owns Consolidated~athurst, that is their connection here; they own a great deal else as well,of course, a well- known company_ any talks in contemplation or in progress with .. the Power Corporation with respect to the Labrador Linerboard mill? ~·fR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~.Unister of Finance. }ffi.. DOODY: Yes,I have no doubt,Your Honour,that when the Premier sees Hr.

Demarais the Labrador Linerboard Limited will be the subject of discussion. The Consolidated Bathurst people have been very active working with us on the linerboard problem. ~r. Sweeney is from that organization, so is the sales representative • 'whom we have,Paul Bannerman, Hr. Jack Andrews on the board of advisors from Consolidated Bathurst, and I would assume that the reports and statistics and what not that have been gathered to date will be discussed by the Premier and ~-1r.

Demarais~ hopefully with a view to getting Consoliaated Bathurst more closely associated ~vith the mill. ~.Jhat will come with that,of course I have absolutely no idea. riR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. }-1R. ROBERTS: A further supplementary, Sir.

Can the minister tell us whether the talks are aimed ~ or whether the government's policy- the government are only one party to these talks- \vhether the government's policy is aimed at trying to induce Consolidated Bathurst to manage the mill under some arrangement or other to be negotiated and spelled out,or is it aimed at the possiblity of Consolidated Bathurst buying the mill? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Hinister of Finance. 9518

May 30, 1977 HR. DOODY: open. MR. ROBERTS: ~1R. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: Tape No. 3393 NM- 3 I think both areas will be discussed and both are A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Will the minister give the House an assurance that the government will not dispose of the assets or dispose of Labrador Linerboard mill ormake any long term arrangement for its operation without prior consultation with the House? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: I think that that is something that the Premier had better make a decision on. I certainly cannot answer that.

It seems reasonable that that would happen, though. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile, a supplementary. HR. NEARY: Would the minister, or his counterpart, the Hinister of Forestry and Agriculture,inform the House if there are any negotiations going on between the Province or Conso l i da ted Bathurst or the Linerboard people,or all three parties,in connection with the exchange of timber rights with Bowaters or Price so that the linerboard mill can be assured of getting a low cost wood in the event of a takeover by Consolidated Bathurst? HR. SPEAKER: ~MR. DOODY: The hon. Hinister of Finance.

There have been ongoing discussions with these companies for quite some time. The hon. ~linister of Forestry and Agriculture is more familiar with the details than I am~but as the hon. House is aware the preliminary report of the advisory committee suggests that in the short term at least the major - or at least 150 ~ 000 ,cords of the necessary ~-1ood supply for the mill would come from outside the Province in any event. So that the immediate problem is not the wood supply from Bov7aters or Price in that immediate area. 9519

Hay 30, 1977 Tape 3394 PK - 1 :t-fr. Doody: ~evertheless,as I have indicated~discussions have been ongoing and will continue to be pursued, but for the detail on that,of course, as I say the Department of Forestry and Agriculture \vould be more appropriate. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture care to add anything to what the Minister of Finance has said in connection with trying to get timber rights from Bo"1aters and Price to supply the linerboard mill in Stephenville with a low cost wood? ~fR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Hinister of Forestry and Agriculture. :yrn_. MAYNARD : ~r. Speaker, \ve have been having a series of ~iscussions with Bowaters, not so much with Price because, I think, most hon. members realize that Price does not have that much surplus \vood on their timber limits, but certainly H'ith Bowaters regarding their surplus timber 1 and I think we , are making fairly good progress on it. I would not care to give any other details other than that at this pJint in time.

Certainly the negotiations are ongoing or the discussions are ongoing, and we will continue in that matter until such time as we have resolved the wood situation in the Province not only for Labrador Linerboard, if it continues to operate, but for the salvmill industry as \vell. "M:R. NEARY : A supplementary auestion, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: - A final supplementary. HR.

NEARY: As low cost wood is, you know, a matter of life and death with the linerboard mill to keep it operating, and they only have six man ths to do that~ \-.auld the minister indicate if it is ~ossible, for instance,if Consolidated :3athurst is interested in taking -- -------------- · -- -··- ·-------,. over that m'ill or managing it or buying it, in that six month period could the minister indicate if negotiations would be finalized or if BoyJaters, \vhich is obviously the principal involved that holds the ----timber resources, could an arrangement be mAde, does the minister --------------------------think,within that six month period to get the lvood on the Island necessary 9520

~ay 30, 1977 Tape 3394 PK - 2 }fr. Neary: to keep the linerboard mill in Stephenville going? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Forestry and Agriculture. M"R. MAYNARD: I believe, Mr. Speaker, that arrangements can be made to get a supply of ~·;rood for a linerboard operation.

I do not think at this point in time •Tith the present transportation methods that are being used,and the loading and unloading facilities that would have to be established in various areas,that it would be possible to get a supply of wood at a low eno-ugh .. c.ost per cord unless we brought in some from the Mainland part of Canada for an interim period. But I think there is a possibility of being able to arrange a supply of wood that would be adequate for the needs of a mill such as Linerboard. HR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

ROBERTS: A question for the Minister of Transportation,who looks like he would need a auestion, just as I would like an answer \ ~-· from him for a change. With respect, Sir, to the announcement last week by l'Ir.

Lang of the assistance of the Trans-Canada Highway and ------ --- "- - - - ---·-·~ --=---:....~,~·~ the confusion or uncertai~ty that has arisen from the announcement because~as I understand it, the announcement simply says, $30 million is available to this Province over the next three years to be spent on strengthening the Trans-Canada Highway~ To begin 1·rith, Sir, could the minister tell us just when this matter will be settled, and just what the Province's position is with respect to the - . --· ·- shari~g~l r-~nderstand the cost sharing is not decided.

I have heard some suggestions it might be 50-50, and I have heard some suggestions it might be 90-10 or 75-25. Could the minister tell us what the Provii'.ce' s nosition is, and vrhen night we expect some answer or some decision with respect to it? MR. SPEAKER: ~~MR. MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. Mr.

Speaker, on Hednesday of this week the ministers resPonsible for transportation and highways will be meeting in Halifax, and the main reason for that meeting is to discussion the recent announcement by the federal minister whereby he has now allocated $100 million for the region, a federal allocation of funds 952i

Ma.y 30, 1977 Tape 3394 PK - 3 Mr. Morgan: for the upgrading of the Trans-Canada Highway. And we will be discussing at the meeting in Halifax, of course, our position,which we will be taking to Ottawa either Thursday or friday of this week as well, with regards to the cost-sharing formula, in the hope that we can sit down with Ottawa .as a joint group,or as one group I should say, and finalize agreements so as we can get the actual work commenced on the u~grading of the Trans-Canada Highway. What the position this Province will take is I cannot inform the Rouse of Assembly of that position right now. The position has always been, and not only this Province but • 9522

~lay 30,1977 Tape 3395 - Morning AH-1 HR.. MORGAN·: in fact all the other three provinces as well, all four combined,in our initial submission and application vle asked for a 90 per cent,lO per cent cost-sharing formula and I have no reason to believe at this time that that position ~vill change. But of course Mr. Lang in his correspondence to this administration and the others in their region has indicated he ~vould like to have immediate discussions and negotiations. I am assuming~and I am only assuming at this time, that one ~f the major points of discussion will _be the cost sharing formula. MR.

ROBERTS : A supplementary. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the origional questioner. }ffi.. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, could the minister tell us whether .......__ \ we are prepared as a Province to accept less than 90-10 Jand could - · ·· · ~ -\.. ., he at the same time tell us if there is a minimum amount? because my fear is that we are going to be offered a deal that is less than 90-lO,and I am not so sure that is a very good deal for us. So I would like the minister to tell us,you know, what is our minimum position?

I am not asking him to expose his bargaining hand but are '"e prepared to accent • 50-50, for argument's sake- I hooe reject it and similarly,can the minister tell us whether our WP position is contingent upon agreement by the other three Atlantic provinces ?in other words ,.do we sav we go as a common front or are we taking the position that we have a minimum position beyond ~vhich we cannot go and the other provinces can decide as they think best but our position is so and so. Could the minister be a little more forthcoming?

I do not want him to tell his bargaining position,if he has one-I assume he has-but I think we have a right to know .This is a large amount of money, there is no money in the minister's estimates for this year~ and it ~v-ould involve significant - 50-50 would wipe out the Minister of Finance's current account surplus achieved at the sacrifice of Stephenville, would ~v-ipe it out. So what -------­is our minimum position ?Even 25-75, Sir, on $30 million would come _.,.,.,.~ . 9523

May 30,1977 Tape 3395 - Morning AH-2 MR. ROBERTS: down to $8 million.You know, that is $2 or $3 million this year and would put _a big dent in that surplus. MR. SPEAKER: Hon.~tlnister of Transportation. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, first of all the vote this year in the estimates of T and C, that vote was put there with an nominal amount in anticipation of an upcoming agreement,and funds can be allocated under that vote,hopefully approved by the House of Assembly.

But I cannot inform the House of ~he minimum we will accept or any point that will be subject to negotiation until I meet first of all with my counterparts in the other three provinces,which will be on a i-lednesday and, like I say, I am hoping then that we can continue on with our meetings in Ottawa. The initial position is still the same as far · as I am concerned; that is that position put forward by the provinces was for a 90 per cent, 10 per cent and Mr. Lang has not indicated anything other than that to us at this time.

We know now $100 million is allocated by the federal government; it could be,for example, it could be the feds could say to us that., "Okay,it is $100 million. Take it as a grant and do not put any money in yourselves~' We • do not knmv that. MR. ROBERTS: Does the minister think that is possible?

MR. :MORGAN : It depends on what we ~.rill put in on top of the $100 million will be the amount spent in the three year programme on the upgrading of the TCR.But there is one thing about it,the minister in his statement and also the correspondence to the governments has indicated it is an open-ended deal whereby after three years there is a strong possibility of additional . funds being allocated.

This was the estimates of the submission . 1ve asked for a programme of ten years and the allocation of funds we were requesting for this Province was around $245 mi~lion approximately a quarter of a billion dollars, $245 million dollars. So the minimum position we would accept,or any position we would accept, I prefer to hold these points and situations ~vith regards to the stance we will take until we have our discussions and negotiations. 9524

May 30,1977 Tape 3395 - Morning AH-3 MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: Sir, I wish I could debate the answer because I hoped the minister could say we would reject at least 50-50.

In any went to go to another aspect, the areas that will be done, assuming as we do that some money will be spent on the Trans-Canada this year in this Province, can the minister tell us, first of all, have these areas been selected,and secondly,if so where they are, an ~ly,are they selected by the government of this Province or are they selected by the government of this Province subject to the approval of the government of Canada? }fR. SPEAKER: The hon.minister. ~'IR. MORGA...'Pil: ' are based along the lines of the need as established by the engineering Mr.

Speaker, the areas that are chosen as priorities surveys carried out by the Department of Transportation and Communications in co-ordination 9525

~ay 30, 1977 Tape No. 3396 NM- 1 MR. HORGAN: with the Surface Division of the MOT and, if you recall, Mr. Speaker, last year the senior of_f::i,c:__:!.als. _ . engineering people primarily,came down to this Province at my request and they travelled the TCH, the full length of the TCH from St. John's to Port aux Basques so that they would know first hand the areas we were talking about and confirm that they were the worst sections.

The worst sections which need reconstruction are~ as mentioned in my estimates a few days ago when we were debating the estimates for Transportation and Communications~ There is one on the Western part of the Province, in the area of the Georges Lakes to Crabbs River, which needs which needs reconstruction, tear up what is there and put dmm new sections. A similar

section in the Eastern l?art of the Province, west of the i-lational Park, just west of Port Blandford area- no,I am sorry, west of the - HR. ROBERTS: HR. HORGAJ.'l' : Access - HR. ROBERTS: MR. MORGA.i.'l': West of the park? ~~lest of the ~·Testern bounrlary -near the Glovertown • Between Glovertown and Gander. Towards Gander, mainly in the Grant's Pit area there, that needs reconstruction as well. That is a priority area~and these two out of two priority are~s with regards to reconstruction, in othe .r words tear up what is there and put down som£ ne~,r highway. MR.

ROBERTS: Are they subject to agreement by Ottawa or do they - No. These will nm.r depend on~for example, these Dvo are the priorities and number three, tying in the priorities as well,is the area from St. John's, the Kenmount Road area out towards the Overpass and on towards the Argentia Access. Now looking at the 9526

~y 30, 1977 Tape No. 3396 NM - 2 MR. MORGAN: figure of $30 million plus,of course the priorities will be established when the funds are finally agreed upon by means of an agreement. We will hopefully and ~ve cannot see anv reason at this time that we cannot get all three of these projects moving under the three year programme. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, a very brief question, Could the minister tell us what it is going to cost, and I realize he has only e this stage but he must have these, what it is going to cost to rebuild a mile of the Trans-Canada? If it is,say~$250,000 a mile to rebuild and to repave~to take a figure, the $10 million would come to forty miles and so forth. \mat doeH it cost? And the other side of the figure, Mr. Speaker, is how many miles does he expect will get done this year? i'IR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGA.J.~: ~lr.

Speaker, the number of miles to be done ·will depend on the nature of the work being carried out. For example~in some • of the areas we are talking about upgrading the TCH, we are talkin~ about widening out the existing highway~which would mean paving of shoulders, etc, and widening out these - ~!R. ROBERTS: Making it four lanes? MR. MORGAN: - climbing lanes. HR. ROBERTS: Making it four lanee-? MR. MORGAN: Haking it four lanes in some areas.

So it depends on whether we are four laneing all the way in some s~ctions, or whether we are reconstructine some sections,as just mentioned, tearing out and putting back the existing highw-ay,or paving of shoulders or extending on these slow lane areas, or climbine lane arP-~~ as they are known as in the Province here, extending en these, depending on the nature of work that - is callec, the tenders called,will depend the amount of work we ge~ c'lone ~,rith the n:oney we have approved. MR. ROBERTS: What does it cost a mile for reconstruction? 9527

May 30, 1977 Tape :l'o. 3396 NM - 3 HR.. HORGA.."Ii : ?-lr. Speaker, I cannot give that off the top of my head but I will attempt to supply the hen. gentleman with the figures with regards to actual reconstruction, like the areas I just mentioned, the western part of the Province and there in the Grant's Pit area. ~fR. ROBERTS: At least S250,000,is it not? XR. MORGA.."Ii: It would depend,for example,on how many sections they have to totally tear up and replace. HR. ROBERTS: Will there be by-passes built? I mean,that is the only highway we have. MR. MORGAN: Hr.

Speaker, when we discussed the estimates I reassured the House at that time that we are not talking about a patch up job or any kind of maintenance because the federal government would not agree,first of all,to any kind of maintenance work like,for example,patching up or resurfacing of asphalt. It is a major reconstruction job we are talking about and that is the reason why I am pleased that the thing is open-ended lvbereas after three years there will be an obvious need • for additional funds. MR.. ROBERTS : Are we going to have by-passes when an area is reconstructed? MR. HORGAL'l: Mr.

Speaker, I do not want to give any details any further. In fact,I cannot supply from the top·of my head the details that we are looking at. But the b·m areas I just mentioned, a lot of these' sections, these two sections in particular; for example,in the Crabbs River - Georges Lake there is a

section about twenty miles which needs to be apparently taken up completely and a ne~v highway laid down. MR. ROBERTS: That was one of the first sections built about 1955. ~1R. ~10RGA..'l: And in the Grant's Pit area basically the same thing. As we all know there is always a problem there and that has to be torn up and a new

section laid, a new Trans•Canada laid down. NR. POBEP.T3: -- A ne~v road bel" has to be put down . 9528

May 30, 1977 Tape No. 3396 NM- 4 MR. HORGA..~: But when we are talking about, for example, Kenmount Road area, the road there is basically good except it is too narrow and it needs to be widened out to a four lane.

So it depends on the nature of work that we get moving and like I mentioned before we are hoping that once the agreements are signed in - I am counting on agreements finalized in the month of June, we can get the tenders called and get the actual work commenced and I am again indicating the possibility of having all theree of these projects co~~ended under the three year programme, looking at the oossibility that there is additional funds after three years. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the han. member for LaPoile, then the hon. gentleman for Terra Nova. MR.

NEARY: i:1r. Speaker, when I was out in Western Newfoundland the other day there is very grave concern over the fact that the money that is being made available for upgrading, widening and twinning the Trans-Canada Highway is going to be made at • the expense of the railway in this Province, what we have left of it. Could the minister reassure the House,or assure the House.that under no circumstances ' 9529

May 30, 1977 Tape no. 3397 Page 1 - ms Mr. Neary. will this Province enter into an agreement with the Government of Canada for money to upgrade, widen and reconstruct parts of the Trans-Canada Highway at the expense of further deterioration or elimination altogether of the railway in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. MORGAN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I have assured the House in the past and I can easily assure it again this morning and the public of .Newfoundland at large that we have never had any kind of discussion or even mentioned in any of our discussions and bargaining ~.rith Ottawa the possibility of any kind of a trade off with regards to the rail facilities for upgrading of the Trans-Canada Highway or new road facilities, and we have no intention.

In fact, my submission this morning to the House of Commons Committee, representing all parties in the House of Commons, was firmly along the lines that we feel that the bulk shipments, the movement of goods in bulk form should be on the rails and not on the roads. MR. NEARY: But the ~inister has seen the contempt that this ~ crowd have for Newfoundland, and one of the questions put to the minister was, Why does not CN pay for part of the upgrading of the Trans-Canada Highway? MR. MO RGAJ.'i : Mr.

Speaker, I have to concur with earlier comments that I told the Committee this morning that I was hoping that they would stay longer in the Province and take a look at our transportation problems we have by means, for example, of travelling from here to Gander on the TCH,preferablyby the CNR bus road cruiser service~and the possibility of going on across the Province and taking the ferry boats from Port aux Basques to North Sydney. But, of course, apparently their tine is limited, so they say, and they cannot stay to look at our facilities,unfortunately. But, Mr.

Speaker, to answer the hon. gentleman 1 s question,we ·at no time considered and will not consider any kind of a trade-off. We feel there should be two modes of transport. There is a definite need to 3530

May 30 1977 Tape no. 3397 Page 2 - ms Mr. Morgan. upgrade the Trans-Canada Highway. I think nowthat is finally recognized. But there should also be some activity over the next year or so to upgrade the rail facilities and to use these rail facilities for a mode of transport which apparently in other countries is found to be quite economicable and feasible, that is by rail. DR. FARRELL: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture.

Could the minister tell us if outside of ~Otter Creek in Goose Bay there are any other bases to be set up t his Summer in Labrador for forest fire protection and if so, what these bases will consist of? Will there be any equipment, any aircraft of any sort? I refer specifically to last year where many acres, square miles,of Labrador -were left burning for weeks on end and in which only one helicopter was left to fight them,and the almost disastrous death of a group of forest fighters? • MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: No, Mr.

Speaker, there are no other bases set up outside of the Goose Bay area. We have found that to be fairly adequate. Labrador is a fairly big territory, and it would be ~- impossible to acquire the amount of equipment that would be needed to cover the whole territory. But as far as the forest areas are concerned, we have found that we have been able to cover it fairly adequately. With the exception of one additional helicopter, the equipment in Labrador and the procedures being used will be the same as it was last year. MR. STRACHAN: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~IR.

STRACHAN: I take it from the minister's answer that again this Summe~ if it is a hot Summer, that the policy of letting Labrador burn will continue. Could the minister tell us whether - and that is what happened last year, for weeks and weeks you could fly back and forth across forest fires, 9531.

May 30 1977 Tape no. 3397 Page 3 - ms Mr. Strachan. three majors one threatened two communities which burned for weeks and weeks - could the minister tell us whether there will be any rescue facilities prepared in preparation for the fact that people were almost killed last year - they lost their equipment, all their personal equipment as well as fire-fighting equipment - whether there will be any preparations made for the evacuation of communities or for rescuing firefighters1 MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: Mr.

Speaker, I am not aware of any policy last \-Year to \erious let the large areas of Labrador burn. We do have some fires up there from time to time. If the situation is serious enough, we can certainly move equipment in from the Island. We are pretty flexible in that regard. We will fly up water bombers and these can be moved around fairly quickly. As far as emergency procedures are concerned, we always have emergency procedures worked out that we can use at any time, and I think these in the past have been fairly adequate. But th;re have been communities evacuated, and there probably will be . ,7 9532

Nay 30, 1977 Tape 3398 PK - 1 Mr. :1aynard: at some point in time - we hope not - but at some point in the future. If need be,I think that we have th( procedures worked out whereby we can rescue people or evacuate communities if the need arises. MR. STRACHAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, _then the hon. 3entleman from Terra Nova. }'ffi. STRACHAN: I remember last year we discussed intensively the position of giving the Minister of Forestry the right to commandeer equipment and personnel and so on.

I wonder if the minister could outline whether this year he would be in a position to commandeer aircraft or helicopters being used by governmental staff in Labrador ------- for pleasure oursuits and so on while for the South there are forest fires requiring the use of that ecuipment? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: Hr. Speaker, the Hinister of Forestry has for a number of years been able to commandeer any equipment,whether it is government owned or privately owned.

The only area where it >vould not t - be comr1andeered is if the equipment r.r_ere needed for health purposes. But certainly \ve can commandeeer any equipment. ~. SPEAKFR: The han . member for Terra Nova. ?-1R. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour and Hanpower. In vielv of the high rate of unemployment in the . ~Province, and in view of the recent forecast by the Atlantic Provinces Economic Council tfi at ~e unemployment rate is likely to remain high unless there is tremendous -ia~ut fr om-o ttawa~ I wonder if the minister has met with ~Ti_ s federal counterpart, the hon.

Bud Cullen'lor is planning to meet with him to discuss the problem to see what both governments can together do to try to alleviate the unemployment situation? NlL SPEA.T<ER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpo~1er. I MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, I am aware that the hon. member is ~ suggesting that all I have done so far is write a letter. But if I look at the estimates the money in my department is very little. We do the manpower training. I think I answered that ~estion last week that as soon as the House is closed - one of my earliest priorities is 9533

May 30,1977 Tape 3398 PK- 2 MR. ROUSSEAU: to meet with Mr. Cullen and discuss the direction of federal monies that come into this Province on a priority basis., and hopefully to increase the amount coming as a result of manpower training and works programmes. Mr. Cullen has indicated he would be prepared to meet with me. He was prepared to meet with me previously, but unfortunately the weather socked him in and we had three or four items on the agenda we wanted to discuss.

And,as I say~as soon as the House closes, _cit_· the first possible opportunity - a~ a mutual convenience,which I am sure will be early, it is my intention to meet with Mr. Cullen. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the original questioner. HR. LUSH: The minister mentioned that he w·rote a letter. Was ~the letter requesting a meeting or was it outlining the situation? Just what was the gist of the letter? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. S~eaker, I tabled the letter during the estimates of the Department of Labour and Manpower. MR.

SPEAKER: The ho~. member for Fogo followed by the hon. gentleman for LaPoile. CAPT. E. ~!INSOR: Mr. Speaker, a question to the han. Minister of Fisheries. Has the minister received any report from ~h --' I Trade Department, The Federal Marine Services Department or any other source~ng t'Re 'I"~ of our tinned seal meat? HR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Fisheries. HR. W. CARTER: No, Mr. Speaker. CAPT. V..TINSOR: A SUP?lementary. ~1R. SPEAKER: A supplementary. CAPT. \.JINSOR: There is a press report currently about the poor quality.

Would the minister try and get the re-ply or get the information so that - ~vell maybe it is a false impression we are getting, but it is - - - ------- "·----- -- certainly detrimental to trade if what they say is true. !'I:R. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Fisheries. ~1R. W. CARTER: I am a~vare of the comments, Mr. Speaker, and certainly I should look into it and see what the story is. 9534

May 30_. '!1.977 Tape 3398 PK - 3 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. S~eaker, my question is to the Minister of --~~restry and Agriculture. Sir, would the minister tell the House how serious the bacterial ring rot problem is in seed p otatoes i ~ this Province at the present time? . MR. SPEAKER: HR. MAYNARD: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. Well it is a~parent, Mr. Speaker, that it could be serious problem unless people use the right type of seed potatoes when they are planting this year.

I have not had an op~ortunity yet to check out with the staff whether or not there is going to be enough registered seed available for planting by farmers, but certainly if they do not ~lant registered seed the ring rot situation could become a fairly serious one. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the minister tell the House what steps his department will take to make sure that the farmers will get potatoe~, seed ~otatoes that are disease free, that are free of the ring rot? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture.

MAYNARD: The only thing that we can do at this point in time, Mr. Speaker, is work with the regular suppliers of seed potatoes. He have,as the hon. member is aware,started potato 9535

May 30, 1977 Tape no. 3399 Page 1 - ms Mr. Maynard. seed farming in the Glenwood area. Unfortunately, we will not have any significant amount of seed available for farming communities this year from that farm but hopefully within the next year or so we will be able to supply farmers with registered seed. But for this year we are going to have to depend on the regular suppliers, the wholesalers, that have supplied seed in the past, and we will certainly be working with them, with the farmers, to try to ensure that they do acquire the type of seed that is necessary to rid themselves of any ring rot problem.

ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. HICKMAN: Motion 8. MR. SPEAKER: Motion 8 Motion, the hon. Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Education (Teachers' Pensions) Act." (Bill No. 41). On motion, Bill No. 41, read a first time, ordered ----read a second time on to!orrow. MR. HICKMAN: Motion 9. Motion, the hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting Labour RelatioQ.s In The Province." (Bill No. 62). On motion, Bill No. 62, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR.. HICKMAN: Committee of Supply.

On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Hr. Speaker left the Chair. 9536

May 30, 1977 Tape no. 3399 Page 2 - ms COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please~ For the information of the Committee, we have forty-nine minutes left. The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Chairman, I just want to say a faw brief words. I will not be very long. I was talking here on Friday about the tremendous ip-off that Newfoundlanders were receiving at the marketplace, and I was making the point that it seems as though everything is justified with respect to transportation. And that is a mental attitude that Newfoundlanders have now come to accept, if you will.

It is a mental attitude that they have, that they expect to be ripped of£ almost. They take any sort of an increase in any sort of a project because we have been almost coerced into that mental attitude that is transportation. And I was making the point that I do not think that it is transportation that accounts for the excessive prices that the consumer in Newfoundland pays at the marketplace for the various projects. It is ~ther factors. And, Mr. Chairman, ' I just wonder whether the Minister of Consumer Affairs saw the

article that was in the Evening Telegram on the weekend. It was entitled, 11Lumbermen says, 'Competitors price fixing and gouging public.,., And I think that the minister, if he has not seen that article, that he certainly should make an effort to see it.

It is about a gentleman who was setting up into building supplies, as a new business, a youn~ man just setting up and he was selling at very competitive prices, selling Gyproc at a profitable price I should say, much lower than was being sold by the major building suppliers here in the city, and he made suggestions that he ~.;as being approached by wholesalers that if he did not jack up his prices that they would boycott the man. There 1o1ere all sorts of suggestions.

And one . he mentions there .was that the association - what was it called? the Building Supplies Association- met recently to decide on a possible boycott of wholesalers dealing with this particular man. And I think this is serious business if this is going on. The 9537

May 30, 1977 -~C!Pe n~. 3399 Page 3 - ms Mr. Lush. minister should certainly lack into it, this price fixing and this gouging of the public. And, Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that this is going on in a lot of businesses. Whether it is going on in building supplies, I do not know. But certainly in a lot of businesses this iS going on in this Province, of price fixing. And the competition is gone. There is • 9538

Hay 30,1977 Tape 3400- Morning AH-1 MR. LUSH: no more competition between the business people, it is a matter of price fixing. And we are exploiting and we are robbing the people of this Province, ripping them off. I thought this was quite apropos to what I was speaking on on Friday,and I want to bring that to the attention of the minister, this idea of price fixing within the building supply business, and that I am finished with.

I just wanted the· minister to react to this, to see what .his reaction was and to see what action he plans to take in this particular case,and not only in this but in price fixing in other businesses throughout the Province • MR.. CHAIRMAN : Hon.member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, of course the biggest example of price fixing not only in Newfoundland but in the whole of Canada .is with the big oil companies .And it is amazing to me, Sir, how they get away with the way that they blatantly violate the Anti- Combines Act of this nation.

One oil company will announce an increase in gasoline,and the next day another oil company will announce ~ similar increase,and then the next day then another oil companyoOr they all do it together; if they do not do it • together they will do it individually. HR. SMALLHOOD: Do not the pulp and pa-per companies do exactly the same? HR. NEARY: My hon.friend asked if not the pulp and pa-per com-panies do not do the same thing. Well I do not know if they come under the Anti-Combines Legislation or not. HR. SMALLWOOD: No, but they announce the price a few days apart. :MR. NEARY: Hr.

Chairman, as far as I am concerned~and I believe I sneak for every ordinarv citizen in this Province and in the nation as a whole 9 that price fixing with the oil companies as far as heating fuel, diesel fuel and gasoline is concerned there is price fixing going on behind the scenes and it should be stop-ped. We have an example in this Province recently, the last increase in gasoline 9539

Hay 30,1977 MR. NEARY: Tape 3400 - Horning AH-2 that was announced by Ottawa, we had an example in St. John's where there was a deadline put on the time that they could increase gasoline and they were supposed to use all the products that they had in storage. Well,they did not follow these regulations. some distributers uppedtheir prices right away, other had to wait. And this was generally known, Sir, and yet the minister's department did nothing about it~ did not go around and check the service stations - to distributors. MR. MURPHY: We checked every service station. MR.

NEARY: Well why did some of them put up their prices immediately and other had to wait before ~ they could put their prices un? MR. MURPHY: It is up to the denartment responsible. The bon memhP.r knows that.And it is a federal matter•It was checked out and reported. MR. SMALL~·lOOD: of beer? MR. NEARY: ~·Jhy is there such a variation in the retail price Why is there such a - the former Premier asked ~Thy is there such a ~ariation in the price of beer.

I am not talking about the variation in prices although I am glad the hon.gentleman brought that up because I f~el and I contend, 3nd I have said this outside the House and inside the Rouse,that there should be one price for gasoline and one price for heating fuel right across this whole Province. There should be no variation in prices. Why should the price of one gallon of gasoline in Port aux ~asques,for instance, for regular gas be $1.10 or $1.12 and in St. John's you can get it for I believe it is 99.6 o~ ~1.00?

Let us use round figures and say $1.00. 1~y ; should one gallon of gasoline cost ten or twelve cents more in Port aux Basques than it does in St. John's,and why should it cost eight or ten cents more down in the Baie Verte Peninsula, down where my hon.friend lives and represents the district, why should it be more down there? MR. STRACHAN: It is $1.45 in Rigolette. MR. NEARY: Why should it be more down there than it is in St. John's or on the Avalon Peninsula? 9540

• 1-iay 30 , 19 77 Tape 3400- Morning AH-3 MR. MURPHY: $1.25 - MR. NEARY: -~nd $1.~5 - is it? - in Rigolet. MR.. STRACHAN: Right. _ffi. NEARY : $1.45 in Rigolet. There is no way, Mr. Chairman, no way that the oil companies can justify that on the grounds of transportation costs. Here you have Port aux Basques, only ninety miles across the gulf, and the tankers come in from the Mainland and fill up the tanks in Port aux Basques. And then they have to come 500 miles east to get down to St. John's,and yet gasoline costs ten and twelve cents more in Port aux Basques than it does in St. John's.

I brought that to the attention of the hon.minister's department over a year ago and I also brought it to the attention of • 9541.

May 30, 1977 Tape No. 3401 NH - 1 MR. NEARY: the Federal Department of Consumer Affairs and the Environment and back comes the answer, "We have no control over it. It is up to the distributors." The oil company says it is up to the distributors. That is the answer I got from both the minister's department and from the Federal Department of Consumer Affairs.

The oil companies say there should only be a fraction of a cent in the difference and yet there is a difference of ten or twelve cents and the minister has no control over the distributors, cannot give them a rap on the knuckles. :1R • HURPHY : 'He rap them on the knuckles but it just does not work. ~·~R . NEA.~Y: The suggestion that cane from the minister's department, "Oh,let them start a self service. Why does somebody not get into self service?" I say the oil companies should get the boots put to them. AN HON. MEJvlBER: Hear! Hear! l1R.

NEARY: The oil companies are the ones who commissioned • these distributors. I was responsible, I can claim an assist, I think,on bringing down the price of gasoline in Corner Brook because there was all the rumpus and fuss that I kicked up with the Federal Department of Consumer Affairs,and later the minister's officials got in on the act that got a self-serve in Corner Brook and eventually got competition going out there and got the price of gasoline down slightly. I believe the price now is - there is not much difference in the price there than there is in the city of St. John's.

I think I can claim an assist on that. } ~. ~'U1'J'I-:Y: Sl.02 for regular. ~-JR. NEARY: $1.02 for regular, ~vhich is not bad ,you know,compared to the East Coast. ~ut all over this Province you have different prices for gasoline and heating fuel and there is no justification for it. 9542

Hay 30, 1977 Tape No. 3401 ~- 2 HR. NEARY: The minister should launch a full-fledged investigation, call the oil companies together, sit down across the table and find out once and for all whose fault it is and what can be done to remedy this situation. And it is not like beer, Sir; there should not be any difference in the price of gasoline, here, Baie Verte, Bay de Verde, the Southwest Coast, Central Newfoundland - no, it is not too bad i~ Centra~, in the Botwood area it is bad. I do not know why, my hon. friend knows that.

I have had complaints from the Botwood area,and yet in Grand Falls there is a difference of five and six cents. Why, !--fr. Chairman? Is it because the distributor does not have the volume to keep up the overhead, to keep up ,.nth the overhead of running his business? But it is not fair, Sir, not fair to the motorists and to the people who have to cocrmute back and forth to work.

I think the minister would do this Province a great service by getting the oil companies together and looking into this and putting the blocks to them where the minister does have control over the environment6 • And the ~inister I think can use a little pressure on the oil companies to straighten this matter out and try to get a uniform price for gasoline and heating fuel right across this Province. Now my second point, Sir, is this, that I do not feel that the Department of Consumer Affairs and the Environment are compatible. I think they sl-.ould be separated.

There is nothing in common between Consumer Affairs and the Environment. I believe they should be slpit up. I believe the environment should be put under · another department of govern~ent. I do not know ••hich one at the r:mment'l but I do not think, Sir, that Consumer Affairs and the Environment should go hand in p,love. I believe there are members of the administration ~•ho agree with me on that, that it should be split up. Haybe there are other responsibilities that can be given to the minister that are more in keeping with Consumer Affairs and give the 9543

~Iay 30, 1977 Tape No. 3401 mf - 3 HR. NEARY: the Environment to some other department of government. It would seem to me, Sir, that it should more fittingly come under the Department of Mines and Energy or onder the Department of Forestry and Agriculture, Probably Mines and Energy would be the best place to have it because most of the problems involved in the environment come under the Hinister of ~1ines and Energy, those having to do with mining, occupational health hazards and pollution and the like,or under Industrial Development,but certainly I think it should be taken away from Consumer Affairs.

It has a tendency to distract, one distracts from the other. ~IR. HURPHY: HR . NEARY : HR. HURPHY: t~. NEARY: agrees •·lith - ~IR. MURPHY: ~fR. NEARY: f'!R. ~fURPIIY: One controls the other. Well maybe one controls - One man cannot boss the judge and boss the jury too. 1-lell maybe.

I do not know whether the minister If the member looked into ·: it he could see that fact - Well probably. • - that if I am minister of both and I say to Hines and Energy, "Do that," and then say to the other, "Now de not you say a word to this crowd, I told them to do this." You know,it does not make any sense whatever the suggestion of the han. member. HR. NEARY: It does not make a~y sense at all what I am HR. MURPHY: ~ot the suggestion with reference to that particular thing. No. ~1R. NEARY: I see. MR . ~RPHY: You want an independent but not a resource ~reducing department. :m..

NEARY: Well maybe we should have an independent - 9544

'May 30, 1977 Tape 3402 PK -- 1 Vr. Neary: no~not a Crown corporation because I think we should do away with - MR.. MUP-PHY: No,we_have enough of them. MR. NEARY: - all Crown corporations. We got too many of them now. But certainly, Sir, I think it should be under some other department of government. MR. MURPHY: Yes. ~ffi. • NEARY : Mr.

Chairman, perhaps the minister can also tell us why it takes so long for the environment to make their reports to the minister responsible for crown lands, why it takes the environment so long to do their part of the investigation that is necessary when people want to build on crown land or building along the Trans-Canada Highway. ~- MURPHY: Hmv lono "' does it take? :1P •• NEARY: Hhy it takes so long to make a report. ~~R. MURPHY: How long does it take? ------ MR. NEARY: Sir~ sometimes it takes - I have known cases that are outstanding for over a year. i'KR. MURPHY : In the D~Partment of the Environment? 7'-''R.

NEARY: Yes, Sir. I have been told,at least that is what the officials tell me, that ,,re have not heard from the Department of the Environment. Does the minister not have the staff? MR. 't-1URPHY: Very little,really. MR. NEARY: Well,very little. Well then something should be done. MR. MURPP.Y: It is one of the Problems. -- MR.

NEARY: ---- This is a major problem, Sir,and we have the tendancy to lay the fault, the blame,on the shoulders of the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture for not approving these applications \-7hen in actual fact the minister has to deal Hith a dozen other government departments, and it is in the process of dealing with the other departments that the aPPlications are sletved down. Sometimes it is Highways, sometimes it is the Hinister of the Environment, sometimes it is the Hinister of 9545

!:-1ay 30, 1977 Tape 3402 PK - 2 Hr. Neary: Health, sometimes it is the Minister of Transportation and Communications. There are eight or ten ministers of the departments that the minister has to deal Hi th, and it is a real jungle. And I think the whole thing could be s-peeded un if each minister would try to beef up the Jrocessing of the application in his own department.

Each minister that I mentioned is just as much responsible as the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture for slovling down these applications; they _haye everybody in the Province driven out of their minds. __ If there is ever a matter, a procedure of government that is frustrating to the people of this Province, Sir, it is processing an application for crovm land. It is scandalous, especially in the Western part of the Province, It is driving everybody bugs, right out of their mind.

I know a case recently, I can give the minister an ex~ple of a case recently where a man out in Port aux Basques wants to spend a quarter of a million dollars to build a motel, and he cannot get an application approved. He wants to spend the money, he has got the money, cash. He wants to build a motel on the Trans-Canada Highway and he cannot spend hi? quarter of a million dollars because he canna~ get an application approved to put up a motel. Have we reached the stage in this Province, Mr.

Chairman, ~v-here we can afford that kind of a luxury? '.Jhy the government should take that man by the hand, one of the few men I suppose in this Province at the moment ~v-ho wants to invest a quarter of a million,without one red cent from this government or anybody else,of his own money in building a motel and he cannot get a piece of land, he cannot get a site to build it on. It is absolutely shocking. And, Mr. Chairman, the other thing the gentleman should do i~ give us a report on is Affiliated Marine Hetals. As the hon.

House knmv-s, the people, the consumers of this Province have been ripped off for the last t"YlO years, an extra dollar on their licence plates. What for? To pass out as political patronage to Affiliated Marine Metals because that is what happened, Sir. And now we hear they are on the verge of bankruptcy. They have not finished the job. They have gotten 9546

!1ay 30, 1977 Tape 3402 PK - 3 MR . NEARY: the money from the consumers, the extra dollar on their licence. They have not finished the. job t _They have got wrecks all over the place, They , have Stock piles down here at the Octagon, I am told notv that the bank is the one who will have to arrange to ship out the car wrecks because Affiliated Marine Metals,which is owned by same twilick, some twirp up in Toronto 1 although some of the local people here have had to take the wrap for it, but the real owner is·, I believe") a Mr.

Smith, _a _ Come-From-Away Up in Toronto or up in Ontario who met the manager here, who met one of the principals here on the Q~een Elizabeth II . ~vhen she was going frotn Come by Chance to New York, they met and formed a company, and decided to take - planned aboard the Queen E. II- to take the drivers, the vehicle owners of this Province to the • 9547

Hay 30, 1977 Tape No. 3403 NM- 1 MR. ~EARY: cleaners by getting an extra dollar on their licence in:co-operation with the administration. Sock an extra dollar to them. Pick up the car ~rrecks - no contracts called, given out as a little political plum, political patronage~ - and now ~·Je are told the company is on the verge of bankruptcy. I was told that the minister recently gave the manager here permission to hire on a man or two.

I also heard that the Royal Bank of Canada, the manager here,is on the back of a note and they have moved in and taken control and they are the ones who are going to ship out the car wrecks to make sure they get their money. Well,what about the rest of the cr•ditors? l-!ore important than that, Sir, what about the consumer? What about that dollar that is put on the licences in this Province? A year or so ago the minister did not want to have anything to do with it because the minister knew that it smacked of political patronage of the worst kind.

We have heard accusations across the House of political patronage in this Province by the former acministration, but we have never seen anything as blatant as that contract that was handed out to Affilliated Marine Metals and an extra dollar put on the • licence of every driver and every vehicle owner in this Province. to get that political patronage. Shocking! Scandalous~ It should be investigated. The contracts should be cancelled immediately, not another cent paid out,and the dollar taken off the licence plate or given to the city council and the other councils around ~ewfoundland that can do a better job.

Absolutely scandalous, Sir. And then what about the - the minster can tell us v7hen the minister gets up to reply - what about that internal committee that was established to look into insurance rates in this Province? \le have had compulsory insurance now for a year and a half or a couple of years, going on two years, we have not had a report yet. T.AJe do not know if the consumers are being fleeced, are being taken to the cleaners by the insurance companies. We do know this, that there is an aw·ful 9548

i'ray 30, 1977 Tape No. 3403 NM- 2 ~. NEARY: lot of new companies forming despite the fact that in the beginning we were told that some insurance companies were going tp pull out of Newfoundland. We have a record, according to the Newfoundland Gazette, a record number of ne~" companies being formed and a lot of them are of the same political persuasion as my han. friends that sit on the other side. I do not know if that has anything to do with it or not. Mr. Chairman, what about this internal committee?

Have they submitted their report and if so would the minister table that report and let us all have a peep at it, let us all have a gander at it, the report that was drawn up by Mr. Good and Mr. French and the other people on the committee. And if so l·muld the minister now tell us if the minister is going to carry out his promise on ~ehalf of the adm~nistration to launch a full- fledged investigation into insurance rates in this Province.

We heard recently that over in our sister Province of Ontario that the insurance companies had to refund to consumers, their policy holders, hundreds of millions of dollars that they extorted out of the consumers, • out of the customers. They had to refund them, give them rebates. Hhat about in this Province? They are allowed to go hog wild and do what they like, no reins kept on them. I was down to a couple of these hearings that they had down in the Philip Building in the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities Room, just a great farce, Sir.

There was no actuarial investigation, study,made of insurance rates in this Province. It was all a hit and miss affairs - heads I win, tails you loose. That is the way it worked. I would like to find out now the nanes of the new insurance conuanies, other than life insurance that I am not particularly interested in at this moment, registered with the Department of Consumer Affairs and the numbers that were registered in the calendar 1976 and tl.1is year to date. And, 9549

day 30, 1977 Tape ~o . 3403 NM - 3 HR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I hope the minister is making notes because I have got another little item that has been bugging me for a couple of years. MR. MURPHY: If I get a chance to answer them all. I got !ifty since the day before. ~1R . NEARY: Well the minister can have, as far as I run concerned, can have the time but I have to get these q1,1estions across t .o the minister. HR . HURPllY : MR. NEARY: HR . l'1URPh'Y : MR. NEARY: Ver y g ood. What about the dump at Upper Island Cove? IHbat about the dump? Yes,what about it?

They had permission from the government, from the Department of the Environment, two years ago to go ahead and establish a dump,but because of objections from certain members of this House the minister ~rrote a letter cancelling out the permission, even_though they • 9550

May 30, 1977 Tape no. 3404 Page 1 - ms Mr. Neary. had all the documents, and they met all the requirments of the law, and they had the permission from the Department of the Environment. The minister, for political reasons, wrote them a letter and said, no I want all the correspondence in connection with that dump tabled in this House. It is about time, Sir, we started to get some information in this House· so we can get it out to the people. During this whole seventy-five hours so far the sad thing, Sir, is that we have been unable to get information from the administration.

One after the other have refused to give us information. The Minister of Mines and Energy refuses to tell us about the free bus service provided by Newfoundland Hydro. The Minister of Industrial Development refuses to tell us about the names of those who got loans and grants from the Rural Development Authority. And what other minister? The Minister of Tourism refuses to answer questions about the Norma and Gladys ~ how much that cost the taxpayers of this Province? And I hope that the minister will not refuse to give the House - ~ MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, ~lease! \ MR. NEARY: MR.

CHAIRMAN: ~· WOODROW: ~ ) \ ):'ealize the - the information that I have asked for. The han. member for Bay of Islands. Mr. Chairman, I just have a few remarks to make. time is passing rather quickly. I would like to direct my remarks towards what has happened in Corner Brook and on the West Coast in general since the opening of the Consumers office in October, 1976. In fact.since that time they had approximately 350 investigative complaints, that is complaints requiring in-depth investigations and mediation. And for the past eight months, they received an average of 300 telephone inquiries and complaints monthly.

And a high number of both telephone complaints and written complaints fall into the following categories; car service and repairs, insurance, landlor~-tenant disputes and home appliances. Now regarding the Landlord-Tenancy Board hearings, they have been held on four occasions in the area and the board has travelled to Port aux Basques and Stephenville for hearings as well. And 955:1

May 30, 1977 Tape no. 3404 Page 2 - ms MR. WOODROW. the complaints originated mainly from Corner Brook, Pasadena and Deer Lake. However, I have been told that they received complaints from places in the Bay of Islands district,like--York Harbour, Lark Har~our and also complaints from Bonne Bay and surrounding communities like St. Anthony, and they have gotten complaints from White Bay and other communities in the St. Barbe district. Now I would like to say that I was in Corner Brook over the weekend, and I came across a button - I had it in the lapel of the other jacket I wore - it is called, Alert Consumer.

Unfortunately, I left it over in my apartment this morning. And this really is certainly helping to advertise in no small measure the work that is going on in the office in Corner Brook. And I would like to mention such things, and probably these things have already been mentioned, but I think I should mention them again. The hon. member for LaPoile (Xr. Neary) mentioned such things as car wrecks and this is still a great eyesore over in parts of the West Coast.

And I am thinking especially of the Bay of Islands district on both • the North and the South shores of the Bay of Islands, and you see them around Corner Brook as well. And I am sure that the han. minister will do his best to look into this matter which is a 9552

May 30, 1977 Tape no. 3405 Page 1 - PK Mr. Woodrow. 3 terrible ey~sore for the ProvincP.. And also the beaches. Last year I brought to the minister's attention, and he kindly replied to me, the condition of of the beach over in the community of Headows, the Bay of Islands. In fact, I was over there on a beautiful Sunday but you could not go on the beach because of the debris and the old pulpwood that had drifted in there and the like. .\.:'!d certainly to my mind in days of unemployment there are so many people looking for work it would be a great thing if somebody could be employed to clean up the beaches.

Of course, again old bot:les and cans are still being left aro~d, and I notice in fact here in St. John's in many places there are so many bottles and cans broken up. I suppose this w·ould be a matter, I would imagine, for City Council, but you certainly see it here in many cases. And I do not know ho~v we could stop this, but I suppose perhaps more advertising or - I do not know if there is any way to teach, shall we say, the children in schools and what not about the dangers of broken glass.

One thing I hate is to see broken bottles and glass around and the like. • Now I also have had many complaints and brought them to the hon. minister during the year concerning insurance, and I have always had good co-operation from him. I realize that the Department of Consumer Affairs and Environment is not a very easy one. It is probably one of the hardest ones to look after in all the departments of government because it touches, literally speaking, everybody, in fact _eve~y consumer, in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

But I notice the motto here,"Let us keep it clean." And I feel that He as members of the House of Assembly will take that motto to heart because it is only by us \·lho are legislators giving good example to the general public can our Province and our cities and our towns and villages become a better place to live in. 9553

Hay 30, 1'!77 Tape 3405 PK - 2 HR. WOODROW: And! the minister and wish him well in his end up by once again congratulating depa.rtment. ~ SOl-iE HON. ME~ffiERS: Hear, hear! !'fR. CHAIID1AN (HR. YOUNG): The hon. Hinister of Consumer Affairs and the Environment. HR. l'illRPHY: Hr. Chairman, I will try to the best of my ability to answer the many dozens of questions that have been thrown at me. I would refer in the first instance, of course, to the hon. member for Terra Nova (Mr.

Lush) who suggested that we should try an educational programme, and this we have done, and that is why I circulated - these have gone out. And I would like for members just to look on the back and you will see the four Coats of Arms - This is an Atlantic Provinces effort rather than just Newfoundland. And when I did take over as ~linister of the Environment, I figured that for us to do many things would be very costly but working in common with our neighbours across the Gulf we could do it perhaps much cheaper. For that reason we have the Atlantic Provinces Environment Committee, and also Consumers Committee.

And I • table this for the information of members. And if we are to get an~vhere in education or information I would just like for it to be known that my department has not 1 per cent of the funds that we feel necessary to spread the gospel, if you like, but we have fifty-one members of this House of Assembly who through a little co-operation ~vith us I believe can do an awful lot by spreading the word of keeping the Province clean.

Now there are many matters raised since Friday morning when these estimates were brought forward, and I think mainly there was a great concern of the general condition of the Province. We are known, rightly or wrongly, as a Province of litterers and polluters, and anyone who \·7ants to drive arotmd this Province or visit our beautiful areas, so-called, of fishing resources and what not can see for themselves 9554

Hay 30,1977 Tape 3406 - Horning AE-1 ~R. HURPHY: just how we treat our natural habitat~ And, Mr. Chairman, it brings to mind what the hnn.member for Haunt Pearl said on Friday. "If you want to know the best fishing spots, ~valk around until you ·-see the empty beer bottles, the empty cans and the refuse generally that is left~' and this is the resu~t of the people who have been using that particular area and leaving behind them what should be put in a garbage bag and ta~en home.

And it always struck me down through the years, Sir, when travelling in other provinces that I always made sure I had a litter bag in my car and I said to my children "Now look, do not throw anything out the ¥.-indow~' But I think we are all very much aware of that because everywhere you went there were signs $50 or $100 for littering so ~ve made sure that we did not throw anything: around, but in our own Province we seem to think that we could do just what we like and did not have the same regard for it. Now as I mentioned on Friday the staff in my department is not very great.

Those who are working are doing a tremendous job and are kept going full speed ahead. I believe it has got to be a matter of co-operation if we ar~ talking about our picnic resorts, our wilderness areas and everything else. Secause it is a~2zing - and I had a £igure of many hundreds-not the fact of a bottle or a tin can,but the cut feet that are suffered by the children in our swim resorts because people are stupid enough and criminal enough to throw empty bottles around that smash and get in there. Every one of us with children know the same problems,that He have these problems.

I remember one time that I was up trout fishing and I had my long rubbers on,and I was wading out and all of a sudden I felt this kind of a tinge in my foot and I sa~. , the red coming up to the top of the water. I reached do~m and here was a broken toP of a bottle that had stuck under the arch of the long rubber. I had to immediately had to be driven thirty miles to a doctor so I could get a tetanus needle. Now this is someone that threw a bottle out there and did not care about the consequences,but it is very, very serious., 9555

May 30,1977 Tape 3406 - Morning AH-2 't"IR. MURPHY : say this to the committee, Mr. Chairman, that if we want to keep this Province clean we have got to darn well make sure it is kept clear. Anybody who_ lives on a public thorou~hfare like I do on Le:Harchant Road, · I will bring you out to my lawn every morning the week to pick up at least one or two pop cans, empty bottles,and these Kentucky Fried containers. People just go along and just chuck them in anybodie 's garden.

And as far as automobile wrecks are concerned~only for they have to lift it up over an iron fence I am sure that I would find an automobile wreck almost every morning of the week. Now on the question of wrecks I would just like to try and set-.the record straight. Back in 1975,I believe it ~otas and I am not quite sure,this contract was signed by a company to clean up the wrecks throughout the Province.And in that contract there was a price quoted - and I am not afraid to disclose the price;it was $27.50-to collect these wrecks from recognized disposal areas, not by the sides of the road, not here and there.

Within the municipal act they have all the control to bring people up for littering whether you throw cigarette packages on the street, • ~vhether you throw an empty bottle on the street, this is all within the control of the municipal authorities. The act provides for a fine or jail sentence or whatever for people that are found littering.

This contract ~vas signed by this company where they would go-and I might add that on our waste d1.sposal sites.,and ~o1e have over one hundred-odd throughout the Province, there is in the act set forward that in a certain area of your waste disposal SiteS a Space ShOUld be left for thP StOrage Of non- COnSUmableS such as old bedsteads, old 'lvrecks and this type of thing on every municipal dump,if you like,in the Province and also in the outer area here by the Hetropolitican Board or in unincorporated areas we have w·aste disposal sites fortned that have all the authority 9556

May 30,1977 Tape 3406 - Morning AH-3 HR. MURPHY: under the act of a council or a local improvement district whatever, it is up to them in the first instance to bring action against people that are littering. Then this contract came in - and I will get back to it nmv-that these people were supposed to come in~ Affiliated Metals-They were to flatten all these cars and everything else and ship them out of the Province. There was this proviso there that of this fee of $27 .SO,t'tventy-five per cent would be withheld until these vehicles were shipped outside the Narrows or wherever they had to go.

And I say now that this company, yes~is in financial trouble,but this government owes this company with the withholding until that part of the contract_~~~ filled something in the area of $150,000 to $160,000 because of the fact that there are 22,000,approximately~2,000,wrecked vehicles still in this Province that there was no market for and nowhere but nowhere could a ship be found by this company to take these out of the Province. On the wharf down here there is something like S,OOO_~You knolv,there are two sides ,to every story.

You knolv,it is nice for the han member for LaPoile to get up and talk about political this and political that and political everything else. Wonderful! He will make the headlines on it. 1--!R.. NEARY: If political patronage - MR. MURPHY: But political patronage! This company has today I would say spent $500,000 to provide the machinery necessary, the dump truck, the loading trucks, they have provided employment for twelve to fifteen people for the past three years and paid good money, good overtime and everything else.

And today that company is owed by this government through contract - whatever about legal or anything else - 9557

Hay 30, 1977 Tape No. 3407 NH - 1 HR.. MURPHY: · because they could not fulfill, through no fault of their own, the shipping out of these out of this Province. If it had to be there to dispose of them, there is nc trouble to get two bulldozers, they could dig a hole 100 feet deep and 1,000 feet long and bury everyone of these into the ground. But that was not in the contract. As a consequence we have here another CN tower in at the Octagon, piled up,twenty-odd thousand vehicles.

In Corner Brook,we went out last year and we flattened something like 500 cars. \~e went to the Torbay dump site down there and flattened another 150, into the Goulds and so on and so forth, on the wharf down here waiting to connect with a ship that was promised faithfully on November 10, 1976, to arrive in St. John's to take these wrecks and that ship was diverted at the last moment and sent into Daniel's Harbour to take a load of concentrates. _'.n,d the wh~Tfage on that down there is iust frightening, the bill due because of the fact that someone defaulted. ?!R.

NE.ARY: Why was she diverted? • l1R. l"fUHPHY: These things I do not know because of the fact that the government, it is not their oblip;ation, as I said we are under a contract with a company, But when a company tells ~e the story, and I ~now that it has been checked out, there is nothing they can do about it, it is absolutely beyond their control, r,!hat we do with these wrecks now? That I do not know and that is the big problem of the government and of my department principally. What do we do? !'1R. NEARY: The bank has control over the records. ~ffi..

HURPRY: The bank and the company,like everybody else, my account ¥Jith the bank is private, It is none of your business if I have an overdraft or I owe on my mortgage. That is absolutely none of your business, the member's business. If you can get inside information from any bank I doubt if that bank has any authority to give the bon. member, but like everything else he has 9558

~r.?.y '30, 1077 Tape ~:o. 3407 vp • ?-1T!'P~Y : a very ~,~en known person 1i7ho feeds him all the information. As far as I am concerned as a ~finister of this Government, as a Hin:ister of the f:rm\"'l, ~- re have a contract and so long as t,Te fulfi11 that contract - NF.APY: It is public ~oney. m'PPHY: The rrte!!lber mace a Statement this I!'.Orninp Hhich is an absolute falsehooc'l. It is not true that •ile have authorized this company to employ ~~o or three people. That is absolutely not true. I coul~ call the hon. ~ember a Jiar but I am not permitted to.

All I am saying again ts he is very, very careless ~vith the true facts. That it is not a fact. ~1R. NEARY: 1vell tell us the truth. It is the taxpayers• money. ~·tR. ~IURPHY: The taxpayers money! In 19 7 5, ~..rr. Cl:ai rman, let me get this on the record, they ~vere going to clean up this Province and the government in its wisdom said,We will put on dollar on each licence fee. That was in 1975. Since that time there has been no mention of $1 anywhere on it.

At that time there was a general !ncrease in all licencing rates, automobile, insurance and everything else and if anybody can show me this year where there is a mention of $1 to collect automobiles, I scoured mine and I cannot find it anywhere. r!R. NEARY: ~. HURPHY: Well it is still on it. All licence fees went up in conjunction with everything else. There was no mention since 1975 of that going down. MR. NEARY: Now you know better than that. HR. :MURPHY: It is an actual fact. If the member can show me \vhere it is in 1976 or 1977 I will agree with hil!l. Now that is the car ~·7recks. HR.

NEA..~Y : It is already - HR. CHAIR."!AN: Order, please! ~tR. MURPHY: Now the problem is now to get these cars out of here to fulfill the contract so that morally, if nothing else, T,,e can help 9559

May 30, 1977 Tape No. 3407 MR. MURPHY: these people get over a very rough spot that they have gotten themselves into through no fault of their own and due to circumstances of the metal market and everything else. NM- 3 HR. NEARY: ~. MURPHY: Nonsense! They could have been sold over and over a~ain. Hould that not get you down? They could be sold over and over again! The gall!

As I say, being an independent_ member with no responsibility for morality or for anything else, he - can make all kinds of statements and he is the most sought after member in this town to make comments, and very few of them bear any resemblance whatever to the truth. MR. NEARY: than that. NR. ~IDP.PHY: Aw,come on now. Come on 'Ank'. You know better And if the hon. member nm.r can sell these cars, I will guarantee him that anybody will give him the biggest amount of money that he ever saw in one bundle in his life - :MR. NEARY: I will sell them in the next hour. • 9560

May 30, 1977 Tape no. 3408 Page 1 - ms Mr. Murphy: - - e:x:c~pt for hi_s camoai~n fund in 1971. MR. NEARY: No, I do not take that kind of money. MR. MURPHY: No! MR. NEARY: I do not take A. B. Walsh's money or _Mullalv's money. MR. MURPHY: No, good enough. That is all right. We know all about the Mifflin report. Do not go'into it. One of these days that will be inco_!'Porated into the history of this great Province of ours. Now what else have we got to talk about? The han. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) was saying that we are being ripped-off and gyped and everything else.

And he mentioned, I think, some crab fish he had bought, crab meat where the difference was $1.12 per tin. Now really I do not know~because with prices today, competition seems to have levelled things out, and in the smaller places perhaps now. Just to give some idea of just what is happening - and I just quote - and anybody who has been out of this Province and bought ginger ale, for example - I brought the story up before - you pay thirty cents for an American quart of ginger ale in Florida - eh? ·. I paid sixty-six cents last night at a little store fo~ the same amount. Now why the difference is I do not know.

But I would love to have something to do,and my officials, with prices and with standards in this Province. But all we can do is we can make surveys, and we can submit it all to the Federal Department of Consumer Affairs in Ottawa, and they will take the necessary action. And I would like to thank so many people and particularly the people of Labrador South who have formed their own consumers group, that check prices for us every month or every six weeks where we will check them with ours. And three months ago Newfoundland, of all the Provinces of Canada, had the lowest increase in food prices all throughout.

And I think - and I pay tribute to my group because they are constantly in and out of supermarkets, checking prices, and trying to keep, through inference if nothing else, the prices down, because of the fact that everything is being sort of supervised. 9561

May 30, 1977 Tape no. 3408 Page 2 - ms Hr. Murphy. The han. member for Haunt Pearl (Mr. Windsor) brought up a very, very important matter at this time, and one that bothers me very greatly, and that is waste disposal sites. He asked me ,. where 't-Tas the regional 'tvaste disposal site for St. John's. Now I do not want to go into that. I was not a member of this department when this fortune, thousands of dollars, was spent on a survey - I believe in the Ruby Line area. Thousands of dollars was spent and the people in the area objected to it.

And 'tve were down at Robin Hood Bay and, of course, the people in that area - everybody wants to dump their ga:-bage but nobody wants to dump it 'tvithin a mile of themselves and perhaps this is perfectly natural. And we are in an age novl •.Yhere ninety-eight per cent of what we put in our plastic garbage bags twenty years ago we burned in our kitchen stoves. So where do we go from here? Tnere is only one way to go from here and that is to incinerators.

They have got a modern version nmv they call the pit incinerator that is below ground basically, dug out below ground, and 'tvith air currents there are no fumes or no odours • which will arise from that. And 't-Then I look at the city of St. John's and the environment, and we can say -what? - 130,000 or 140,000 people -. in almost ten or fifteen or twenty miles of the area - AN HON. MEI1BER: More than that. NR.

HURPHY: Hare than that. - with two of these, one in the East and one in the West - and we are looking at the Cape Spear area, the road might be, you know, but that might be an ideal spot, and perhaps one on the the East, on the end of, you know, near the Waterfront. Well, ~ve would not get any reaction if it were in that area. And when 'tve look at the cities of Grand Falls and Corner Brook, heavily populated areas. And one of our big problems with this waste disposal, one of our biggest is the Labrador Coast.

And the reason is that there is no fill whatever to fill over a waste disposal site with plentyr.of soil. It is an excellent thing because you fill and then you level over and then the grass starts 9562

May 30, 1977 Tape no. 3408 Page 3 - ms MR. MURPHY: to come up. I have seen it in St. Catherine's. I have seen it happen in Ontario. I have seen it a dozen times where they move their plants, and they start to fill an area likely ten or fifteen acres. In about two years or three years they have the most beautiful level spot that they use as a park or as a playing area. But they tell me - I do not know if it is tnue or false - that our council here pays something like $20,000 a month to truck in fill to cover what is being dumped in Robin Hood Bay. So we can see that it is a very expensive proposition.

So we have got to go to incinerators one way or the other. We had quite a problem on the Southern Shore area. We had from Maddox Cove, Petty Harbour, the Goulds, and Bay Bulls with a dump site that was full of flies and rodents and everything else. So we erected an incinerator there, PP they call it. They have one in Foxtrap. And that I am happy to say was fabricated by the local people in Badger, and it was a tremendous success there.

And what is happening now, of course, is that the people come in, they dump - there is a big ramp there - they dump into this, and • what is left is only ash, and then that is spread then as fertilizer in an area to use as fill. And the Labrador Coast ., I was 9563

May 30, 1977 Tape no. 3409 Page 1 - ms Mr: Murphy. saying -, and I am open to both the members, that our problem with them is that what is happening in a lot of the smaller areas, the dumping is done on the ice in many cases in the Wintertime and when the Spring comes, of course, it goes, and then you got all this on the beaches.

So we have something like seven sites in mind, if we can get the money - it is not available this year - but we hope to be able to do a bit of planning on it and establish,· I think, one in Nain, one was Makkovik, I believe, one in Mary's Harbour, I think we have one in North West River - Joe, if I am not mistaken - MR. GOUDIE: MR. MURPHY: Mud Lake. Mud Lake. So I think there are seven and then two or three down below.

But this is the way we have to aim if we are going to prevent destroying our own beautiful environment here that we should be so proud of, the natural beauty of this Province, and preserve thf· w·ater and everything else. And another thing - '!nd I think I mentioned it the other day - was the fact that we are going very heavily - we were very lucky or very ~ortunate and thankful to the Executive Council for granting us a few dollars to set up a hydrology department where we are getting into deep well drilling and this type of thing.

So anybody, in any area of the Province now, we hope to do it if we can get the staff to make surveys and say, Look, we can get water here and we can get water there, and make it economical for people - perhaps not for an individual well, but in a small area if we could get the well now to supply fifteen or twenty families. I think it is happening now in many areas, where you have these wells, and this is a part of our plan in the future. We have worked very closely with Municipal Affairs, quite frankly, and any other - is there anybody else? On motion Item XX- Consumer Affairs and Environment, 201, carried. 9564

May 3 0 , 1977 Tape no. 3409 Page 2 - ms MR.. HICKMAN: Head XIV - Fisheries. MR. CHAIRMAN: Head XIV -Fisheries, page eighty-nine, subhead 1401. The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, I am very happy to have this opportunity to present the estimates ol the Department of Fisheries to my colleagues, and to solicit their views and, where necessary, cr~ticisms and maybe in some areas some objective advice. This will be a record year in Fisheries insofar as the estimates are concerned.

We have a budget that is, I believe, in excess of sixty-five or seventy per cent of that of the previous year, 1976-1977. We have a lot of new programmes, mostly having to do with the revitalization of the inshore fishery. I should point out at the outset that most of the money that is being spent this year in the fishery vote, in the fishery estimates, will be to revitalize the inshore fishery.

This, of course, we feel is awfully important in that the inshore fishe~ is vital to the continuation of the Newfoundland wav of life and to the more than probably 300 communities around the Province, dotted around our coastline that depend to some extent on the inshore fishery. And I am not suggesting, Mr. Chairman, for a moment that we are going to neglect or overlook the importance of the offshore Hsherv. · SOME HON. MENBERS: Hear, hear: MR. W. CARTER: I ~velcome H.adam Chairman to the this verv honoured and very esteemed role that you are now playing.

And I am sure that all members will respect your -r.vishes and will show you the dignity and the decorum that your office requires and demands. Mr. Cha.irman, like I said, we are not in our effort to revitalize the inshore fisherv, I hope it is not interpreted as a desire on our part to downgrade in any way the importance of the offshore fishery. We all know what a major contribution the offshore fisherv makes to the general economy of our Province and in particular 9565

Hay 30, 1977 Tape no . 3409 Page 3 - ms Mr. W. Carter. to the areas in which it is concentrated mainly, of course, on the Burin Peninsula, and on the South Coast of the Province and certainly on the Southern Avalon. This year we will be, like I said, involving ourselves in a large number of projects. One will be the expansion of the Field Services Division. We have ~ecently - or I should say, we will be shortly establishing a new fisheries regional office in Grand Bank. And, of course, the matter • 9566

Hay 30, 1977 Tape 3410 PK - 1 Mr. \-1. Carter: of establishing such an office in Labrador has~ot escaped our attention and it is something that will be attended to,or certainly to which ~-Te will be addressing ourselves upon the appointment of the deputy minister, I believe it is,who is going to be appointed to service that area under the Department of Rural Development.

This year ~ve will be seeing ne~v developments aimed at assisting fishermen to develop new gear technology, big and better and more versatile boats; indeed this year, as hon. members know,~ve recently announced a $35 million five year programme of boat building, vessel building commencing ~Tith the construction of twenty vessels this ~resent year.

And I should point out,by the way,that tenders have already been called in the local press soliciting bids from the various shipyards around the Province for the construction of a part of that first twenty pac~age shipbuilding programme on which we will be embarking in 1977-1978. VJe are getting involved this year to a much greater extent in providing ne~v gear, different types of gear, im1Jroving on existing harvesting methods, making it more viable, more efficient • and more effective for fishermen to harvest the various species around our shores.

And ~ve P-re particularly aiming our direction this year at developing gear to harvest the lJelagic fisheries. We recognize the imPortance of that area of the fisheries, and we are doing all we can to assist the private sector in providing the necessary technology and equipment and so on to harvest that very important resource. This year t-7e will be undertaking some exploration of new stocks of fish, and we will he assessing their commerical potential.

Of course we all know that last year the department,in conjunction with the Federal Department of Fisheries and the Environment,undertook certain exploration work off Northern Labrador, or at least in Northern Netvfoundland, Southern Labrador,at which time substantial stocks of turbot and flounder were found and later harvested,which meant a 9567

Jv!.ay 30, 1977 Tape 3410 PK - 2 Mr. 'tv. Carter: considerable input into the plant in St. Anthony and in extending the life of that plant by serveral weeks, and thereby providing some badly needed jobs, and some additional wages to the fishermen concerned. This year we are going to be taking a hard look at the caplin industry. It is interesting to note, ~.adam Chairman. the caplin now is coming into its own.

Indeed the Icelandic people at least are much further ahead than Canada in the harvesting and processing of caplin; in fact, their harvest in 1977 will be the equivalent of $50 million to their economy, an amount of course which is almost equal to that of the total Newfoundland fishery, the landed value of our Newfoundland fishery. This year we intend to support and encourage the industry to acquire the necessary technology and expertise in the field of caplin catching and processing. It is our intention to assist those companies to maximize the processing of caplin for food.

And, of course, in areas ~vhere that is not possible then of course the caplin will be used to provide some badly needed raw materials for our existing fish meal plants. • The foreign effort this year with respect to caplin is being drastically increased. In fact,the Russians this year will be harvesting caplin I think 9568

Hay 30, 1977 Tape 3411 Pk - 1 Hr. W. Carter: probably· in excess of 300,000 metric tons, and of course the projected Canadian catch is -only a very small percentage of that amount. But our effort must be in caplin, indeed it must be in the other areas o~ the fisheries, to work toward the day when we will phase out completely all foreign efforts fishing within the 200 mile limit. Of course, like I said,the caplin industry is no exception so this year we will be assisting various companies in the Province to undertake some extensive experiments with respect to the caplin fishery.

And we are hoping, of course, to increase very, very substantially the amount of caplin caught by the Newfoundland fishing effort. In fact, it is our intention to engage the services of an Icelandic seiner skipper ~7ho will provide guidance and advice to the captains of the vessels that ~·Till be engaged in that area of the . - fisheries for the Newfoundland firms concerned. This 1977 caplin project will be truly a joint venture in that it will involve federal/provincial governments as well as the industry itself.

It is important,Madam Chairman,to bear in mind that we do have substanti!l fish meal production cauability in the Province, a lot of which is not now being utilized, and some are being vastly under-utilized. We know too, of course, that it is now totally unacceptable, totally unacceptable to use herring to any great extent as a base of raw material for the various fish meal plants around the Province. Herring, of ~ourse, has no~' become a very important food fish.

I think it would be a crime to have the herring that, I might add,is not in too plentiful supply,used to, like I said,provide rmJ material for the fish meal plants around the Province. And that is why we are desperately trying to encourage the advancement or .. the development of the caplin fishery, because a large part of that, I think, probably the male caplin,>V"hich do not fetch the same price as the female caplin on the market,will probably be used in the fish meal plants. I think Connor Brothers,who were operating a plant in Isle aux Morts, 9569

May 30, 1977 Tape 3411 PK - 2 MR. W. CARTER: : are keenly interested in the caplin industry, and in fact this year we will be assisting in the fitting out of three or four seiners to undertake caplin fishery o. f~ the Southwest corner of our Province. And that, of course, could very well mean that the fish meal plant in Isle aux Morts will be given a chance to operate for a much longer ~eriod and thereby provide some badly needed jobs in that area. This year we are going to be looking at the Labrador situation.

I had the pleasure of visiting Labrador during one of my - in fact the first regional meeting that we held in the Province, I believe it was October 15, and I listened that day to a lot of complaints in the area, legitimate complaints, received a lot of good advice; we have since acted on some of that advice, certainly that which has been possible to accept.

And this year He will be spending quite a few dollars in the Labrador area assisting fishermen, assisting them in the purchase of new and better and more effective gear technology; we will be nroviding assistance or at least we will be providing community stage facilities in places like Mary's Harbour, Cartwright, Henley Harbour; we will be providing othertservices?such as slipways,in other parts of that nart of our Province~such as ice making machines which ~1e plan for Fox Harbour and Hilliam's Harbour, and a host of other things,Madam c:1airman, that I am sure will be very beneficial to the fishermen of that very important part of our Province.

I ~vas quite proud of the fact that when we had our meeting in Labrador we did have representation from most parts of the Labrador Coast, and I can say this in all honesty and in all sincerity, I think they were the most, certainly one of the most impressive groups of peorle, one of the most imuressive groups of fishermen that I have

Nay 30, 1977 Tape No. 3412 l\lM - 1 MR. W. CARTER: had the pleasure and the honour to associate 'tdth in that series of meetings that we held beginning last year and concluding this year. They were a very articulate, reasonable, and obviously a very energetic and industrious people and it made me feel quite proud because I must confess that was the first time I had the pleasure of visiting that part of our Province since becoming Minister of Fisheries. And I am very happy to be able to accede to some of the requests that were made to me by the people there.

In fact~shortly after I returned from that trip to Labrador having recognized the fact that there are a multitude of problems in the area, small problems not costing too much to correct- a few dollars here, a few dollars there, a slip"t-my somewhere and so on - 1 contacted a young Labradorian who I think is well known, young Claude Rumboldt ~ffi.. SMALLWOOD: Yes. ~-IR. H.

CARTER: And I asked Claude to travel the Coast, certainly the area that falls within the provincial jurisdiction,and to mingle • around with the fishermen and to find out first hand exactly what their needs were and just what ~ve could do to help. Young Rumboldt did an excellent job. I think it only cost $2,000 or $3,000 which really is not that much. We paid him a small retainer plus his travelling expenses and I think it is probably one of the few tines in government when you get real value for money spent on that kind of a survey. Well certainly :"!.r.

Rumboldt came back w·ith a report that contained a lot of very worthwhile suggestions and we will be studying that report, in fact we already have and we \.Jill be responding to most of the - certainly to the things contained in the report that it is possible to respond to at this particular time• And~like I said,some of the items included in this year's estimates for Labrador are the result of my visit there with the officials of the Department of Fisheries on October 15th. and of the report that was subsequently compiled by Mr. Rumboldt. 9571.

May 30, 1977 Tape No. 3412 NM- 2 MR. W. CARTER: Last year of course we - or at least this year we will be continuing with the Labrador barge. I think it is called Labrador I, and that is a mobile floating facility. That is stationed,! believe,in Smokey, Labrador where fishermen can go on board and land their fish and can have it ~recessed. And on board of that barge there are certain amenities that fishermen today expect and indeed are entitled to, such as showers and certain recretional facilities, the chance to have access to fresh meat and good food and that sort of thing.

On that barge this year we have provided ice making facilities and that of course will permit the operation now to become a little broader, a little more diversified and probably in so doing provide an outlet for a lot of other types of fish, other species that would otherwise be dumped or would probably arrive in the Province in a condition that would not make it saleable. Last year we also engaged the services of The Galway Blazer and that is a Newfoundland boat. It was stationed in Labrador • doing similar work to that undertaken by the Labrador barge.

The reason for the second barge was more or less an experiment. The Labrador barge does not have the mobility that a normal ship would have. It is tmved around. It is stationed I think in Smokey and it does not have the capability of moving back and forth as conditions would require. So 111e chartered The Galway Blazer as an exPeriment and had that ship travel different parts of the Labrador Coast, moving around - CAPTAIN HINSOR: She is chartered directly from the Department of Fisheries or through the Salt Fish Corporation? ~-!R. H. C.\RTER: I think it ~~~as a joint effort.

T.•le have collaborated with the Salt Fish as indeed 1ve are doing with the Labrador barge. The Galway Blazer had more mobility. It ~vas capable of navigating the Coast of Labrador. It is an experiment. It has 9572

May 30. 1977 Tape No. 3413 NM- 1 :VIR. W. CARTER: some possibilities and it might very well be that that will be the type ship that we will have to put in service on the Labrador Coast. It 't'ias our intention to undertake the design of an entirely ne't.;r facility snd once the results of these tests have been assessed then we will know exactly what type ship to design for that coast and 'tlill then set about to have that ship built. This year we are going to get involved with respect to the lobster fishery.

The lobster fishery is very important to the economy of our Province and of course to the people who are involved in that particular industry. Just recently we announced that we were providing mechanical haulers. We 't.;rere going to find '"ays and means to mechanize the hauling of lobster pots because I do not think you would have to stretch the imagination to realize just how backbreaking it must be for a fisherman to go out and haul manually 200 or 300 lobster pots that are quite heavy and that is a backbreaking labour and certainly a time- consuming one.

So we have now discovered that there are • being used,I believe off the Coast of Ireland,a machine that would enable the lobster fishermen to haul their lobster pots mechanically • .:-fadame Chairman, my time has just about expired. I did not realize just how short some times can be, but we have a number of things I would like to elaborate on but certainly during the next six hours you will have lots of chance to do it.

I am very grateful to my two old friends across the way who have been designated by their party as being critics of the Fisheries Department and I know that during the next six hours we can look fonvard to a lot of good, constructive criticisms maybe and certainly advice. Both gentlemen are senior members of the House, very distinguished me~bers, both with a background in fisheries, representing fishing districts, and I am sure that they are going to be fair and constructive in their criticism beca