LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MA NITOBA Monday, 29 April, 1985. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURR E NT COMM IT TEE S OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - MUNICIPAL AFFAIR S MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Comm ittee please come to order. The

section of the Com mittee of Supply will be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Mun icipal Affairs. We shall begin with a statement from the Honourable Mi nister responsible for the department. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, members of the commit tee, it's a pleasure tonight to introduce the Estimates for the Department of Muni cipal Affairs for the next fiscal year. Mem bers will note that we distributed in the House toda y the sup plem entary information that's been distribut ed the last couple of years and later on in my remarks I'll speak briefly to that supplement.

Before moving into specific detail regarding the Es tima tes, I'd lik e to recog nize the con tinuing contribution made by elected mu nicipal councils throughout the Province of Ma nitoba. I'm certain members will join with me in recognizing the dedication and achievements of those people who serve local government in our province. That recognition can also be extended to the many staff who support municipal councils in all of our municipalities.

I'd also like to take an opportunity now to recognize the contributions made by my Deputy Minister, Gerry Forrest, who is back full time for the first time today, having taken a vacation that he didn't plan for the last several months or parts thereof, and also the staff of the department of Municipal Affairs. Our full executive board of directors is with us tonight to observe the Estimates and help out the Minister every time he has trou bl e with the difficult questions from members oppo site. In general sum mary, the Department of Municipal Affairs Estimates are up 8 percent.

I'd like to allay any fears of any of my colleagues who happen to be here or read these Estima tes, that the Department of Muni cipal Affairs didn't get a whopping big increase this year of 8 percent, but rather those Estimates changes relate primarily to grants and most particularly to grants in lieu of taxes which are up from $22,651 ,000 to $23,61 7,400.00. I'd als o like to advis e mem bers that some reorganization did take place in the Department of Municipal Affairs during the past year.

The Estimates figures have been adjusted for ease of comparison, so that similar functions are presented in the adjusted vote for last year, as if the change had been in place one year ago. As we proceed through the detailed examination these functional adjustments will be apparent. The primary change in structure relates to the emphasis newly pl aced on assessment reform and the requirement for the development of systems to suppo rt assessment reform.

Members may recall that during Estimates last year, I indicated the department would be moving to establish uniform standards and procedures throughout the province. I'd like to advise members of the committee that officials of the Assessment Branch have been working with the City of Winnipeg Assessor to develop uniform standards. In addition a technical steering comm ittee involving the acting Provincial Municipal Assessor, Mr. Bob Brown, who was appointed last fall and his Deputy are co-ord inating this activity.

Three joint working groups involving the City of Winnipeg and provincial assessment staff are directing their efforts in three specific areas: First, a single land valuation manual; second, a single building valuation manual; and third, a mutually compatible computerized process for assessment. In the specific area of com puterizat ion for assessment, there are four basic phases to the overall process. The first is a needs analysis which is critical to establish proper foundation for any new system. This will require review, revision and definition analysis to frame the whole of the new system.

For example, there are approximately 200 forms used in assessment recording now. Each of these forms has to be analy zed and restructured to fit the new computerized format. At the same time, procedural questions must be examined to ensure compatibil ity, following the changes. Analysis is also taking place to determine what information will have to be kept in the data base and who should have access to that information.

At the same time, we're examining other computer systems with a view to establishing future tie-ins with the muni ci pal assessment system, for example, the computer systems now in place in the Crown Lands Branch and in the Land Titles system in the Attorney­ General's office. The second major step and link in the process of computerization involves the actual system design. Once we've done the needs analysis, we can look at the parameters that have to be linked, in terms of the technical specifications, and we then have to design the system, the system's design based on the analysis of the actual requirements.

The specifications then, form a basic road map of the functions to be contained in the computerized system. Following the design of the system, a process of probing or walking through or testing the system is req uir ed to ens ure that the systems perform appropriately; and obviously the whole process of assessment reform and the addressing of policy issues, the whole process of change will take place on a continuous basis while the new computer system is designed.

We've alr eady es tablished contact with other jurisdictions throughout Canada that use computerized assessment systems to see whether or not any of their 1372

Monday, 29 April, 1985 existing systems, ideas, concepts or parts thereof are either useable or modifiable to meet Manitoba's specific needs. Obviously , if we can find or readily adapt an existing system, time and effort could be saved. If not, then we'll go on to continue to the final steps of developing our own system, perhaps borrowing here or there from systems that have proved successful. Following system design, we move on to a phase of system development involving the conversion of all the technical data into working computer programs.

This is the most labour-i ntensive phase of the exercise and it will consume a great deal of time. Specifically , all of the existing records will have to be converted to the new format. Daily operating procedures and staff training will be required during this phase. The final phase will involve system testing. The system will be run in parallel with the current system so the results can be mon itored for efficiency and accuracy. An intensive and continual examination of the system will be required so that any necessary changes can be made to the com puter programs before final implementation.

At present, we're currently in the needs analysis stage, documenting all of the requirements for assessment refo rm. Various com puter langua ges are being evaluated for possible useage and staff are being familiarized with computer useage in our various district assessment offices where on-line systems for data keeping have been in place for a number of years.

Prototypes of land and building valuation functions have already been developed and we're receiving input and also feedback from the field staff and the district offices, so the system will incorpo rate the practical requirements of the work they do out there. While the primary emphasis, at present, is on needs analysis and system design pha ses, we're also continually conscious of the other facets of assessment reform involving both compu terization and the field of assessment generally. For example, mem bers will have noticed the assessment pamphlets which were contained in the Estimate's supplement package.

I hope members will agree that the asse ssment refo rm mu st include determined efforts to enhance public understanding about the assessment process. Last year, I indicated the department would begin this public education program to explain the basis of the assessment system and to provide guidance on many of the frequently encountered problems which occur with the existing legislation.

To date, you will note that in addition to the general pamphlet which describes assessment reform, there are informational pieces on farmland, farm buildings, residential property, commercial property, industrial property and the appeal process. Members are probably aware that this material has already received very wide distribution through municipal offices, the assessment offices, and by assessors at the doorstep of ratepayers throughout rural Manitoba. As the process of assessment reform continues, we'll be preparing material to update municipalities and the general public.

The changes we'll be proposing during the current Session for The Municipal Assessment Act, which has now received first reading, will be detailed for municipal councils and members of the public so that people can be made aware, as quickly as possible, of the procedural changes once they've been introduced in the Legislature and, hopefully, subsequently passed and imp lemented. The department is also working to prepare a pamphlet which will deal with the differences between assessment and taxation.

This is an area which has traditionally presented difficulty for all of us and we're hoping to assist the public in making the vital distinction between these two very separate and yet related processes. Members will have, I am sure, specific questions regarding the assessment reform process and I hope to be able to address those when we get to that item in the detailed examination of the Estimates. I'd also like to now move on to a couple of other areas involving my department. Generally speaking, the Estimates themselves this year reflect a continuation of existing programming.

Members will note, though, that the funding for Main Street Manitoba does include a certain amount of carry­ over reflecting the ongoing nature of the Main Street projects. And if mem bers refer to the Estimate's supplement,

Section 3, Page 7, (3-7), you will note an outline of the Main Street Manitoba projects which have been compl eted, those where agreements are in place, those that are approved in principle, and those awaiting approval. I'd also like to mention that in addition to all of those categories, there are 14 projects which are still in the design stage. I would like to acknowledge the contribution of my predecessor, the Member for Ste. Rose, with regard to the Main Street Program. I think the detail in the supplement indicates the tremendous response that munici palities have given to a program he designed and fathered.

While we're looking at the supplement, perhaps we should draw your attention to some of the other contents. For example, the Centennial Grants Program is outlined also in

Section 3 on Pages 9 and 10; grants in lieu of taxes are outlined and considerable financial information is displa yed. As well, also in

Part 3, an outline of the status of assessments and prop osed reassessments right through to 1989 is included. We've also outlined the general status of our planning programs from our Municipal Planning Branch and I'm certain members will note with interest, the movement of the planning process in those charts, from the planning scheme to basic planning statement and development plan and zoning bylaws and su bstantial progress is being demo nstrated at the local level to assuming ful! responsibility for the planning process in the hands of local government in the form of planning districts.

The grants paid to newly-formed districts are also indicated in that same portion of the supplement. The services traditionally performed by the Department of Municipal Affairs in consultation with municipal governments throughout the province are continuing as usual. We've been involved in a variety of seminars and training programs, both for elected officials and also for appointed municipal staff. The feedback generally received ind icates that further involvement by the department in these kinds activities will be well received and has been worthwhile to date.

I believe the consul tative approach, which has traditionally been taken by the Department of Municipal 1373 -

Monday, 29 April, 1985 Affairs and by Min isters in Mu nicipal Affairs through several decades has proven to be of benefit for local government and for the province as a whole. I trust that the existence of specific problem areas, and there will always be those, will not cloud our vision of municipal government and of the services provided by the Department of Municipal Affairs, so that we don't lose sight of the significant progress which has been made in municipal government, not just in the past year, but in the past several years.

In pres enting my 19 85-86 Estima tes for the department, I'm conscious of the many areas where my department will continue to work with municipal people to improve conditions and services from local government throughout rural Manitoba. The economic conditions which all Manitobans have faced during the past few years and which we are all concerned about for the coming years have, nevertheless. demonstrated the willi ngness of municipal people to participate in joint efforts at sound ma nagement and fis cal responsibili ty. I look forward to their continuing support and work with the province in those efforts.

Gentlemen, ladies, that concludes my introductory comments. I'll be pleased to detail any of these program initiatives or the existing Estimates Program when we get into the detailed line-by-line discussion. MR. CHAIRMAN: As is customary with this Comm ittee, the Chair now calls upon the leading opposition critic to make his reply. The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. At the outset, I would like to, first of all, turn my attention to the staff of the department and in particular to the Deputy Min ister and welcome Jerry back.

We hope that the mild setback he had is one that is comp letely behind him and we're looking forward to his work in the future. It's also, I think, significant to note that at a time when the mun icipal assessment has been in the forefront for the last number of years, that when we are approaching this subject we are in the position of having had senior positions change in, not only in the province, but in the city as well; so that probably was, at one point, a concern to people to see the head of the Assessment Branch resign, both in the province and in the city. It did cause some concern.

However, I think that is behind us and we're looking forward to the changes that should be announced - or should have already been announced - by· the Mi nister and have not, as yet, taken place. Before I get into Assessment though, there are one or two things I think I would like to address. This comes about as a result of talking to many people in the municipal field and, Mr.

Min ister, I think it should only be fair to point out to you that the change that has occurred in the past few months with respect to policing in the Province of Manitoba and the fact that the province has decided to assess across the province for police cost has caused a fair degree of concern in various municipal jurisdictions. It is a basic change in policy that has occurred and it doesn't - I have to say to you, Mr. Mi nister - meet with the approval of all of the municipal people. It meets with the approval of some, but not too many.

I wish the Min ister well in his relations with the various municipal corporations in that respect, but I thought I should mention it now that it is a concern to many. The other thing that bothered me a little bit is that, in general, municipalities have for years complained that they unfairly get the brunt of the criticism of the ratepayers when the taxes are being paid.

The ratepayer doesn't really care whether it is school tax or whether it is municipal tax, but the fact that taxes are always increasing at a rate far faster than the ratepayer would lik e to see has unfairly reflected on muni cipa l corporations because, by and large, the municipal corporations, I believe, have kept their costs relatively well in check and it has been the school portion of municipal taxes that has run fairly rampant in the last few years. I know that does not belong in this particular ballpark.

It is only fair though to point it out, that municipal people are getting a lot of criticism from the ratepayers and they are not to blame for the problem. I have been hearing it with increasing frequency over the last eight or ten years. More and more municipal people are openly stating that they wish that school taxes were paid directly to the school division office and take that load and that respon sibi li ty off the muni ci pal corporation. We know what the results would be; that many would be willing to pay their municipal tax immedia tely but would be somewhat reluctant to pay their school tax.

So there is a problem there and municipal people are more and more becoming fed up with being the collector of school tax for the school divisions. The Minister, quite properly, I think, spent a great deal of time in his introduction dealing with assessment, because assessment is the biggest problem facing us in this province at the present time and it is going to get worse unless something is done and done fairly quic kly.

We've seen what has happened in the City of Winnip eg with the review board rulings and the upholding of that by the municipal board, the resultant loss of $6 million to $9 million to the City of Winnipeg, and that is just the start because we understand now that there are a number of businesses on Main Street that are now talking about going through the same process of appeal. That basically falls dir ectly on the pro blem of assessment. I think we cannot hold back much longer without impl ementing some change, even if the machinery is not all in place to do it.

When we do get to that area, I think we'll be spending a fair bit of time dealing with the problems of assessment and the fact that so far we have seen no clear direction from this government, of what their purposes are, what their intent will be. We have had some advertising, some pamphlets go out. No doubt there will be more, but that doesn't solve any problem. There is no item in the Min ister's presentation here dealing with advertising so we may have to ask on every single line, how much advertising is involved there.

I'm just giving the Minister warning that I would hope he would be able to give us a figure on what his projected advertising costs for the coming year will be. In listening to the Min ister's presentation, I got the impression that the work that is being done in the planning for the changes in assessment may be done 1374

- Monday, 29 April, 1985 in a manner that might cause some concern to us. It appears the Mini ster is putting forward developing a manual for the use of assessors and I don't know whether the manual will be the basis for the changes in The Assessment Act, or whether the manual will be based on the current Assessment Act, and again the Mini ster shakes his head. So I have a suspicion that maybe the changes that will occur in The Municipal Assessment Act will be based on the manual that he is putting together.

That does cause me some concern, because some of the pa mph lets that have gone out would leave that impression with the person that reads them. So without saying any more at the present time, I'm quite prepared to go into the Estimates and examine them line-by-line and when we get to Assessment I think we will be spending a fair bit of time on that particular subject. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Before we go to the Estimates the Chair now invites the members of the department staff to kindly take their respective places. Deferring the consider ation of Item No. 1(

a) relating to the Min ister's Salary, the commi ttee now begins its deli beration with the consider ation of Item No. 1. (b)

(1) Adminis tration and Finance, Execu tiv e Sup port, Salaries; 1. (b)

(2) Other Expenditures. The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, perhaps the Mini ster could now give us the figures that he has for advertising for the coming year? HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Chairman, if the member will turn to Page 2-6,

Section 2 - the detailed estimate breakdown - 2-6, the member will see that the total amount there for public information is $10 0,000.00. That is the total amount for the whole department for advertising. It is broken out that way for the first time. In the past there have been small amounts here and there, because we've never done a lot of advertising, public education, public information in this department.

Very little of it is for what would normally be called "advertising." About 80 percent of the money, therefore about $80,000, will be used for public information, the pamphlets and other things to do with assessment, the existing process and assessment reform. The balance, about $20,000, is used for purposes of planning; purposes of Main Street Manitoba, the advertising associated with that; special signage, work of that sort. I can get details on all of that for the member if he wishes, but that's the rough breakdown. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Membe r for St. No rbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, could the Mini ster advise the comm ittee how much the material cost - the pamplets that we received with suppl ementary information and the pamphlets that were distributed in January? HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, that's out of last year's Estimates and I estimated last spring that that would cost about $20,000 and it came in at that price. I can be more exact if the member wishes, but that's very close. MR. G. MERCIER: Was that amount budgeted for last year? HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes it was. MR. G. MERCIER: Could the Minis ter indicate the areas again that this money will be spent on advertising? HON. A.

ANSTETT: About 80 percent of the money will be used in public education with respect to the existing assessment system and the assessment reform process. The balance, about $20,000, will be used in such things as Main Street Manitoba, and planning education. There's a whole program with regard to the planning process of education, dealing with local municipal officials, that sort of thing. There's advertising for the Civil Service Commission bulle tins; there's advertising for the formation of planning di stricts, bounda ry changes.

Those things that aren't the responsibil ity of local municip alities, but that relate to the operation of muni cipal government, for which the department accepts responsi bili ty, have to be advertised. The Ma nit oba Mun ici pal Board, for example, has advertise their hearings. That's in that $20,000.00. All of that was spread all over before. I wanted to pull it altogether so that we had a handle on it, because members last year asked the same question and said, "It's buried all over, where is it?" So here it is, all in one spot. MR. G.

MERCIER: Could the Minister explain how $80,000 is going to be spent then, in a little more detaii? He's already spent $20,000 on pamphlets. HON. A. ANSTETT: Basically the expenditures follow the reform process over the next year. For example, there will be a new pamphlet on the bill which will be before the Ho use shortly, which deals with Municipal Assessment Act. That will require another pamphlet. There will be audio-visual aids produced, which will assist staff of the department in going around and briefing municipal councils on the changes in the Act and the operation procedures that will result from that.

Without breaching a privilege of the Ho use, I don't know how much more detail I can go into, in terms of what's in that new but there will be a fair amount of money go into informing both ratepayers and municipal officials and municipal staff on the changes that will result from that.

There will be a new brochure that will be a rathe1 detailed and complex one, more detailed than the ones you see today, on assessment and explaining the differences and how they are interrelate" so the people can appreciate the distinction, as M, Graham quite rightly pointed out, not only betwet assessment and taxation, but between the various of taxation and how it's used and where it goes. All of thos e thin gs will be ba cked up with an increasingly sophis ticated �·.udio-visual work hel, 1375 - en p

Monday, 29 April, 1985 both ratepayers, but more particularly, local councils, because they're the people who have to deal regularly with ratepayers about assessment and taxation issues. MR. G. MERCIER: Will any money be spent on radio, television or newspaper advertising? HOiii. A. ANSTETT: Not to my knowledge. None of the planning that I have seen for the commun ications program includes radio or television advertising. In fact, I bel ieve the only money that would be spent on newspaper advertising, Mr. Chairman, would be that associated with the Main Street Manitoba Program and that is the other $20,000.00.

It's not in the 80 percent MR. H. GRAHAM: You put that under the Jobs Fund. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is the member asking a question? The Honourable Min ister. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Chairman, just for the mem ber's comment from his seat, I wish to reiterate that none of those funds flow from the Jobs Fund. It's com pletely separate, departmentally adminis tered. We have no connection with any of those programs for purposes of our programs. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: On Page 1-1 of the material that the Minister tabled today, it has an organizational chart.

Has there been some minor changes in the structure since last year with respect to the Municipal Services and the Provincial Assessor? HOiii. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I'm glad the former Minister of Municipal Affairs asked that question. It gi ves me an op portun ity to comment on the retirements of two of our dir ectors, who were with us a long time and gave great service to the province; Mr. Roy Fulsher who is Director of Municipal Services, and Mr. Jake Reimer who is the Provincial Assessor. I want to point out to the Member for Virden that Mr. Reimer retired, he did not resign.

I just wanted to make that clarification. On the retirement of these individuals, an opportunity presented itself to rationalize some of the services we were provid ing. In a nutshell, what we found was that municipalities are reaching a different degree of maturity than they had 15 or 20 years ago.

It was found that combining the advisory services, which tends to be procedural and interpretive and administrative, with the purely financial services would be advantageous and rather than creating another new directorship, we merged the Municipal Services Branch with the Financial Services Branch, Budget and Finance, and created a new branch referred to here as Municipal Advisor y and Financial Services. The previous Deputy Director of Municipal Services joined this branch when it merged to become the Deputy Director there.

So now when our Municipal Services officers go out, they go out under the direction of the director of this branch and provide, over time, a broader scope of advice. I guess you could say instead of having a one-two punch, it's just one good punch. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Yes, is Mr. Brown now the head of Assessment? Is that position an acting position or is Mr. Brown in charge of this? HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Bob Brown was appointed Acting Provincial Municipal Assessor last fall to succeed Mr. Reimer.

It is an acting position for the specific reason that as Director of Research and the directors's position at this point in assessment reform is primarily a developmental and policy one as opposed to an operations job. For that reason, Mr. Brown has assumed these responsibil ities, doubling in his role of Director of Research, for purposes of oversee ing the assessment reform and polic y development process. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I notice under this we do have a rather detailed expense account system here.

I'd like to ask the Minister to what extent his department and his department personnel are used in the planning and the setting up of visits of the Premier to the various parts of the province? HON. A. ANSTETT: To my knowledge, they're not involved in the planning of visits of the Premier.

I can tell the honourable member that on occasion when I have had special municipal busi ness to conduct, such as the signing of a Main Street Agreement and the Premier planned to be in that same community at or near the same time, my office has ensured that the Premier could be there, for example, for the signing ceremony, but that's done through the Min ister's office. I don't know of any involvement on the part of the department in the plannin g or making of thos e arrangements.

I know a couple of occasions where the Premier has participated in events that normally the Min ister of the Municipal Affairs would preside over, but the presence of the Premier certainly is impo rtant to those local communities and where that opportunity's presented itself, I'v e certainly given the Premier an opportunity to avail himself of that opportunity. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, it was not too long ago that the Premier and possibly the Mini ster paid a visit to Russell and the arrangements that were made for the meeting originally were made for the town hall annex and that was subsequently changed to the Central Hotel Conference Room, I believe, and in order to do that, I believe three of his department made personal calls at the muncipal offices to advise them and make the necessary changes. It may have just been sheer coincidence that they happen to be visiting at the same time.

I was just wondering if his department had been used for the setting up of visits by the First Minis ter, or whether it was just accidental that it should happen at the same time. HON. A. ANSTETT: I'm not aware of that particular incident. I could canvass the department and determine what contacts they may have had, but certainly not a regular function. There may be occasions where a 1376

- Monday, 29 April, 1985 member of my staff has contact with the Premier's Office. I can tell the member the last time I recall a member of my staff having any such involvement, it was when I was in Dauphin to sign the Main Street Manitoba Program and Marvin Borgfjord, our planner for that region, gave me a ride following that in his car up to Winn ipegosis for the signin g ceremony at Winnipegosis, and because Mr. Plohman's car was full, the Premier rode in the car along with Mr. Borgfjord and I. I can tell the member I'm not aware of any function that my staff would perform in that regard.

That kind of co-ordination is handled strictly through the Minister's office but there will be instances where staff of various departments provide services to the Premier if the Premier is on visits around the province. If the member could be more specific, I'l l get any details he wants. MR. H. GRAHAM: I gave the Minister the case, I believe, originally they had set it up in the town hall annex and, subsequently, they changed it to the Central Hotel Conference Room or something. I believe it was the Municipal people that were making the arrangements. HON. A. ANSTETT: I'm not aware of the details.

I will check that out. It could have been staff from my office, my personal staff. If it was staff of the department, we can check that out and find out what the nature of the arrangements was, but it's certainly not something that is an ongoing function of my department. They've got enough to do. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (bX 1 )- pass; 1. (bX 2)- pass. 1. (cX 1) Personnel Services: Salaries; 1. (cX2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, in the breakout that the Minis ter provided us, the suppl ementary, I noticed that there's a fair bit of money involved in the Minis ter, both for aircraft and auto. Could the Minister give us the breakdown on how much is auto and how much is aircraft, for last year? He must have it for last year and can't tell us what he's expecting to spend ... HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, we don't have the detailed breakout on that handy, but we can get that for the honourable member.

The vast majority of that will be aircraft, and the largest sum of that will be used in the month of June, flying to all the district meetings, because the House is in Session during that time and you get back for afternoon Session after speaking in the morning. I run up a pretty large bill for aircraft in about two weeks time and that's when probably half of that money is spent. The automobile expense is a fairly constant amount, allowing for increased costs of operation. If the member wants to know how many miles I drove last year, I can tell him. It's about 40,000 kilometres. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, I believe this is a change in policy that has just occurred in the last couple of years, of charge back, is it? HON. A. ANSTETT: No, not for aircraft. Aircraft was always paid for by the department as far back as I can remember, at least the last dozen years. MR. H. GRAHAM: I wasn't thinking about the aircraft - the auto. That is purely operational cost. That doesn't cover depreciation or anything. That's covered by Government Services, is it? HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, the member is correct. There did not used to be a depreciation factor charged back to departments.

Within the last couple of years - I believe last year was the first year - that occurred; so both figures the member sees on Page 23 reflect that system, although in years previously the depreciation cost was not there. That prob ably accounts for somewhere in the neighbourhood of $4,000 in the expense. Prior to that, only the maintenance and gasoline costs showed up as a departmental charge. The member will see the same thing in, for example, the Assessment Branch, where there is a fairly high use of automobiles and a high charge there. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, under the second line there, auto and aircraft for employees, it's a sum of $4,900.00. How many automobiles are involved there? HON. A. ANSTETT: There is one automobile. That's the automobile operated by the Deputy Minister and he does a lot less flying than I do and usually when he's flying he's going with me so it gets charged to my account. MR. H. GRAHAM: He must have a pretty cheap car then. I would presume that the depreciation would be fairly low on that. HON. A. ANSTETT: My car is a 1984 Aries K-Car wagon.

The Deputy Min ister's car is a 19 80 Pontiac - it's only a Parisienne; it's not a Catalina, and it was one of those Red River College rebuilts and it didn't cost us a lot and we're actually getting a real deal. MR. H. GRAHAM: The depreciation is next to nil. HON. A. ANSTETT: But the gas cost is higher than on mine. He only gets half the mileage I do and the tape deck in his car he paid for himself. MR. H. GRAHAM: No further questions from me, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (cX1) - pass; 1. (cX2)- pass. 1. (d)( 1) Resea rch: Salari es; 1. (d)

(2) Othe r Expenditures - the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Under Research, can the Min ister give us an indic ation of how many people are involved in Research and what their specific responsibilities are? HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, before I do that, in answer to the question from the Member for Swan River, I neglected to point out when he asked about the organizational chart, that the computer systems

section was pulled out of the budget in Finance Branch and merged with the Research

section because of the heavy involvement of the Research sec tion in 1377 -

Monday, 29 April, 1985 computerization related to assessme nt reform. He asked about organizational changes; he'll note that systems has been moved out of budget in Finance, the old budget in Finance and merged into Research. For the benefit of the Member for Virden, I would point out that there are four people in the Research section. Their prim ary focus is on assessment reform. They've also been involved in some other special pro jects. The member will be aware of the two Min isterial Advisory Commi ttees I set up in the last year that have reported: one on the emergency response problems experienced by some municipalities and the other one on polic e grants. This

section looked after the research and support services to those two Minis terial Advisory Commi ttees, but to be quite honest, I would say 75 percent of their activity right now is dedic ated to assessment, the other 25 percent to project of that type and other projects that we do on behalf of the department and on behalf of municipalities. MR. H. GRAHAM: Is 75 low? HON. A. ANSTETT: Well, if the member turns in the Sup plement to Page 3- 51, he'll see a more detailed description of what the

section is doing. It's the very last page of the supplement. Perhaps 75 percent is low; I don't know; I'd have to ask the Director of Research. I don't know that he keeps that kind of tabs on every minute of his empl oyees' time that he could tell you it's 70 percent or 80 percent, in any given month, but certainly that was the last figure I was provided when I asked what the time distribution was for that section. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (d)(1) - pass; l.(d)(2)- pass. 1. (e)

(1) Financial, Communications and Adminis trative Services: Salaries; 1. (e)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Cha ir man, I no tic e in the Supplementary Estimates given to us, is there a position presently vacant in that department or is the $7,200 because of new people brought in? HON. A. ANSTETT: That is an estimate that's applied to all branches for cash flow purposes. You'll have a vacancy for a period of time and that's where it's picked up, because this is the admin istrative

section so this appli es to all branches. I was wondering what the member was after, but actually, in answer to his original question, the 7,200 doesn't reflect a vacancy specifically, but there is one secretarial position currently vacant and being held vacant in the Administ ration section. MR. G. MERCIER: The heading for this area is Financial, Communic ations and Admin istrative Services. How many people are involv ed in Communications? HON. A. ANSTETT: I guess you could say about half of one position.

Our librarian, Judy Stephenson, also assists in the prepa ration of the pampl ets for assessment reform, in the writing of press releases on Main Street and planning di stricts. She does the newsletter, lnform at, which goes out to members of the Assembly , as well as all municipal officials across the province. The short answer to the member's question is, no, I do not have a communi cator. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (e)(1)- the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Yes, when was the last lnformat public ation? I don't recall having received one for quite a while now. HON. A. ANSTETT: It was about one month ago.

If the members were, for any reason, inadvertently not on the list for that mailing, I'll certainly see that they get them tomorrow. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I note under Other Expenditures that the grant to the union and to MAUM has been cut in half. Was that at their request? HON. A. ANST ETT: Yes and no. There are two associations; I had two different requests. After lengthly deli beration at the UMM meeting, there was - how shall I put it? - a lack of consensus and I drove a tough bargain by compromising right down the middle. MR. H. GRAHAM: I won't ask anymore questions. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1. (e)(1)- pass; 1. (e)(2)- pass. There will be no resolution on this number. Item No. 2(

a) Municipal Board, Salaries; 2.(

b) Other Expenditures - the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I think the Municipal Board has been fairly active - I haven't got their report with me, unfortunately, I forgot to bring it. Can the Min ister indicate how many cases are presently still pending before the board? HON. A. ANSTETT: No, Mr. Chairman, I don't have that information. I can provide it to the member tomorrow. Those numbers change regularly. The best reference point is the annual report, but unfortunately I don't have it with me either. MR. H. GRAHAM: As of December 31 st there were some 45. HON. A. ANSTETT: I would expect, Mr.

Chairman, now that the member has a report, that he would find that that's basically a continuing number. I don't think it changes year-in, year-out. There are always references by the Minister or by application by municipalities to the board. It really doesn't change seasonally except for an absence of applications in the summer months and the board seems to be keeping apace of its responsibilit ies fairly well. Th ere are occa sions when municipalit ies want something done yesterday, but with the hearing process and the advertising and everything else, it takes time.

So there are always decisions in the mill, hearings to be held, board deli berations to take place, decisions to be written and then rendered. So there is always something in that neighbourhood outstanding. I'll get the exact figur e from the board offices tomorrow, for the member for tomorrow afternoon. If they can calcul ate that quickly, I'm sure we can have it here. 1378

- Monday, 29 April, 1985 MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I note in that same report that the Municipal Board seems to be fairly strict on planning. I think there were only two cases where they allo wed any variance on cases that were brought before them. Is that fairly consistent with former years, or is it a tougher polic y that they're developing on planning? HON. A. ANSTETT: That is fairly consistent sinc e the promulgation of the Provincial Land Use Guidel ines in 1978 by the Lyon Admin istration.

Once firm guideli nes were established, that the Municipal Board and planning distric ts had as reference points, there became much more consistency and uniformity, because the board had very clear guideli nes on which to operate. I don't think there's been muc h variance year-to-year . It depends on the applications, of course. We can't assume that they're all going to be uniformly good or bad in any one year. Let's put it this way.

Those people who don't get subdivisions are complaining as loudly as they were six years ago; those councils who see their decisions backed up by the board are just as happy as they were six years ago. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Could the Min ister indicate what salary classification the chairman is in, and is that the same as he was receiving in his previous job as Chief Executive Officer of Manfor? HON. A.

ANSTETT: I can't comment on what salary the Chairman of the Municipal Board received in his previous position, but I believe - if the member will bear with me for a moment - the salary classification is Senior Officer 6, and the . . . MR. G. MERCIER: That's good enough. HON. A. ANSTETT: Did the member want the actual dollar figure budgeted for the current year? MR. G. MERCIER: No, that's fine. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)- pass; 2.(b)- pass.

Resolution 111 : Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty, a sum not exce eding $304 ,500 for Municipal Affairs, Municipal Board, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 86-p ass. Item No. 3.(a) - Mr. Min ister. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, as we start this item, I'd like to take this opportunity to introduce to colleagues the new Director of the combined branch of Mun icipal Advisory and Financial Services, who was Director of Budget and Finance before, Mr. Roger Dennis; and leaving us now is our Director of Admin istration, whom I neglected to introduce, Mr. Ken Cameron.

I thought he was actually going to stay up here throughout, since he's got all the figures. MR. CHAIRMAN: We are now considering Item No. 3.(

a) Mu nic ipal Advisory and Fina ncial Services - Salaries; 3.(

b) Other Expenditures; 3.(

c) Grants to Munic ipalities in Lieu of Taxes; 3.(

d) Urban Transit Grants; 3.(

e) Centennial Grants and 3.(

f) Police Services Grants - the Member for St. Norb ert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, this is the area of the department that works with the Finance Department in establishing the provincial-municipal tax sharing payments? HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, this is done through this branch. MR. G. MERCIER: Is the Mi nister satisfied that a full and accurate accou nting has been render ed to municipalities, of the monies raised through the two poi nts of personal in come tax and 1 percent of corporate income that is distri buted to municipalities? HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I am satisfied that on a restrospective basis that accou nting is provide d . Certainly it is not pos sible to provide municip alities on a current year basis that accounting because we only operate on the basis of federal revenue forecasts and those forecasts, of course, do change on occasion as they did this year, reflecting a dramatic increase - not in corporate tax - but in corporate taxable income; and on that basis we sometimes see amounts change in ways that may not have been forecast.

But on a retrospective basis, when the dollar figures are actually in, that is provided in the accounting system, yes. MR. G. MERCIER: Can the Minister indicate when there was last a change in the per capita grants between communities over 5,000 and under 5,000? HON. A. ANSTETT: There was a change last year. This year the increase in the grant was applied uniform ly, but last year there was additional monies provided for smaller ur ban centres and, even more than that, provided for the larger urban centres. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a) - the Member for Swan River. MR. D.

GOU RLAY: I wonder if the Min ister can bring us up to date on the Munic ipal Advisory Services to municip alities? How many service officers are there and do they operate in specific areas of the province or is it arranged in another system? HON. A. ANSTETT: There are six Municipal Advisory Services Officers or Municipal Services Officers, MSOs, as they're generally called. They tend to operate in specific geographical areas, although there are cases where you don't get exact fits, in terms of region, because of the workload assignment, but generally on a regional basis, yes. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)-pa ss; 3.(b) - the Member fer Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, under this item, the municipalities are required to have an audit done. Do they have the say in who they select for municipal auditors? 1379 -

Monday, 29 April, 1985 HON. A. ANSTETT: No, the auditors are assigned on a rotation basis. The auditors spend a certain number of years with each municip ality, after which a rotation takes place. The auditors are required to meet certain specific standards that are monitored by my department because we deal with, in the former Budget Branch, with the Financial Services

Section of this branch, all of the municipal budgets. The auditors are paid a set lee, based on the level of skill and certification of the auditor, from student right through to fully qualified C.A. Those fees are negotiated by the representatives of the auditors' group, the two municipal organizations and the Manitoba Muni cipal Admi nistrators' Association.

I have met with that group on occasion to discuss those fees and then when those fees are finally approved they are passed by Cabin et Order-in­ Council, so there is no competitive tendering system and municipalities do not get to choose an auditor on any basis related to fees or particu lar familiari ty, although ob viously wor king rela tionships are established. There's a high degree of independence there. MR. H. GRAHAM: What are the criteria that the department uses to hire municipal auditors? HON. A. ANSTETT: The basic criteria are education, training and experience.

The program has been in place for in excess of a dozen years. I think it goes back into the mid '60s. The auditing communi ty is eligible to appl y for municipal work. A set number of auditors with what we think is a good distribution of local, provincial and national firms are on that list. There are always others who want to get on the list; we attempt to keep the list as up-to-date as possible and as people retire and new auditing firms are created or formed opportunities for them to take on municipal work present themselves.

I think it's fair comment that since auditors must take work as assigned, some firms aren't interested in municip al work, particula rly sinc e the fees are substantially below the current commercial rate. MR. H. GRAHAM: Can the Min ister indicate how many firms are presently emplo yed in doing municipal audit work? HON. A. ANSTETT: There are appr oximately 30 separate auditors now. MR. H. GRAHAM: Does the Min ister have a waiting list? HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, there is a waiting list of firms that would like to do municipal audit work. MR. H. GRAHAM: How many names has the Mini ster got on his waiting list? HON. A.

ANSTETT: 22, as of today. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(

b) Other Expenditures-pa ss. 3.(

c) Grants to Municipalities in Lieu of Taxes - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, these amounts cover both municipal and school taxes. Is that not correct? Grants to Municipalities in Lieu of Taxes. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, they cover both and they are in the exact amount that would be reflected had the property, real estate been taxed by the municipality. MIR. G. MERCIER: I'm looking at Page 313 of the supple mentary information. Could the Mini ster indicate whether those properties - how would they be classified for tax purposes? I think they'd be commercial. HON. A.

ANSTETT: They fit into the other category, which is commercial, industrial and odds and sods, including government buildings. They're neither farm nor residential, so they're in the other category which most people refer to as the commercial ind ustry category but, basicall y, it's commercial, indu strial, government buildings, railways, you name it. MR. G. MERCIER: Can the Minister indicate, first of all, is the figure predicted for Winnipeg of 16 ,690,000, is that an accurate figure or was that prepared prior to the establishm ent of the mill rate by the city? Is that subject to change? HON. A.

ANSTETT: Those are estimated figures based upon anticipated increases. Some cases were high, some cases were low but, generally, it works out fairly close. MR. G. MERCIER: Is the department advising the Minister that this figure will likely not have to be changed in any significant way? HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, there are a number of factors which enter into this in addition to the local mill rate. One of them, for example, and this is particula rly appa rent in the Cit y of Wi nni peg, is occup ancy in new buildi ngs.

Depending on the date of occupancy, you bring a large new building on such as the South Winnipeg Vocational School, the date of occupancy bears some relevance to the actual amount of money that has to be provided here. I believe last year we were a little over and our estimate came in 700,000 or 800,000 low in the final payments required. I guess my department might be described as generally conservative and make sure they've got enough money in the budget - with a small "c". MR. G. MERCIER: You are from time to time.

When the heading is used, 19 84-85, that actually means taxes paid for the tax year 19 85 does it not? HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, those figures are hi storical. We do not have the break do wn the honourable member would be looking at for this year at this point. That's the historical breakdown by the recipients. Well no, they're both'83-84 and'84-85. So, the'84-85 is paid in the'84 municipal calendar year since they operate on the calendar financial year. I do not have here a detailed breakdowns I don't believe for grants in lieu for the current year. We haven't paid them although we have budgeted for them.

MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, in 1985, obviousl y, the figure will have to go up. The mill rate has gone 1380

Monday, 29 April, 1985 up. You mean the Minis ter is budgeting on the basis of last year's actual? HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I should clarify. The 16,690,000 is not an estimate. I believe I may have inferred earlier that was an estimate. That is an actual. The figure for next year will be even higher because it will reflect one of the largest new buildings to come on, two of them are in Winnipeg. The South Winnipeg Vocational School will come on at least in part this year and the largest single factor in the increase is the addition of the new Law Courts Building in Winnipeg. MR. G.

MERCIER: When was this amount paid to the City of Winnipeg? HON. A. ANSTETT: Last year. MR. G. MERCIER: It was paid last year. HON. A. ANSTETT: In July 1984, grants in lieu of taxes are paid in July of the municipality's fiscal year, basically mid-point in the year. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Chairman, then on July 1, 1985, the department is going to have to make another payment. Do you not have that figure? HON. A. ANSTETT: What I have here is the total of all of those figures and that's 23.6 million. The member will see that on Page 2-9 of the actual financial breakup. MR. G.

MERCIER: Then in developing that 23.6 milli on figure, what figure is the department estimating will be paid to the City of Winnipeg? HON. A. ANSTETT: We haven't broken out that figure independently. What we do is estimate an overall anticipated increase in municipal taxation and budget for that when we're budgeting in the fall of the previous year. At that point we can't anticipate. Until we get all the mill rates in, some will be the same. In some cases, believe it or not, they've actually gone down. In the City of Winnipeg, obviously, they've gone up.

Then when all the mill rates are in, we can determine by applying the assessment to the mill rates the amounts due to each municipality in the province. So, when we produce the estimate based on a percentage increase over last year's figure, we don't do it by individual munici pality. We do it by the aggregate amount and then when the mill rates come in, we determine how much is required to each municipality. If this year is like last year, hopefully, we'll have a little left over. MR. G. MERCIER: What was the actual amount paid to the City of Winnipeg in lieu of taxes in July 19 81 ? HON. A.

ANSTETT: I'll have to provide that information tomorrow. I don't have that with me today. MR. G. MERCIER: We can come back to this item then when we receive that information, is that the understanding? HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, under Grants in Lieu of Taxes, can the Minister indicate whether or not the Department of Natural Resources are now paying actual tax or are they paying grants in lieu of tax on land that has been designated for wildl ife? HON. A.

ANSTETT: Last spring, I announced that starting in municipal fiscal 1985, we would be paying grants in lieu of taxes for wildl ife management areas. That amounts to, as I recall, about 160,000 additional monies into the pockets of municipalities this current year. I don't know if the exact figure is available. I believe, again, that will be reflective of local municipal rates, but based on last year it was in that ballpark. This is something municipalities had been asking for and I was very pleased last year to announce that it would be available starting this year. MR. H.

GRAHAM: In that 160,000, has the Min ister got a breakdown as to the various municipal districts? HON. A. ANSTETT: I don't have that, Mr. Chairman. The distribution of the wildl ife management areas by municipal ity, I believe - I recall seeing something at some time in the past as to what the allocation was, but that's not something we have here. I may have seen that in context of the Department of Natural Resources Estimates a couple of years ago. I know that is available. I suspe ct it's availa bl e in the Department of Natural Resources.

They would give the location of the wildl ife management areas, the number of acres in each, and the munici pality in which they're located. I have seen such a list. If the member wishes, I can try and get that from the Minister of Natural Resources for him. MR. H. GRAHAM: Under that, does that also include land that is under the management of Ducks Unlimi ted or is that a separate thing? HON. A. ANSTETT: No, this does not cover any land privately owned, nor does it cover parks. It's strictly wildl ife management areas. 1381 MR. H. GRAHAM: What happens with land that is under the control of Ducks Unli mited? HON.

A. ANSTETT: That land is taxable as real property in accordance with the mill rates established in the local municipality. Certainly its assessment would reflect its use. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(c) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: My question would be, under what item would the Transit Bus Purchase Program come? HON. A. ANSTETT: The capital provision for transit buses is under Capital. This is the operating deficit provision that you see here as 3.(d). MR. G. MERCIER: Sorry, I thought the synopsis was put together in the order of the Estimates Book.

Monday, 29 April, 1985 MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(c) - the Mem ber for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: No w under the Urban Transit Grants can the ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Can we pass 3.(

c) now? MR. H. GRAHAM: As far as I'm concerned. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, we can pass 3.(

c) now but I will be bringing information back tomorrow for the Member for St. Norbert, and if further discussion ensues on that, I'm certainly amenable to have that take place, if necessary, when we get to the Min ister's Salary at the conclusion of that. MR. G. MERCIER: Just one other question. What was the act ual figure for last year for Gr ants to Municip alities? HON. A. ANSTETT: Which grants? MR. G. MERCIER: The Grants to Municip alities in Lieu of Taxes. HON. A. ANSTETT: You'll see that on Page 3-12, $2 1,587,732.00. MR. G. MERCIER: I'm sure Mr.

Dennis could do a better calculation, but that would appear to indic ate that there has been a 10 percent increase in municipality taxes in these areas. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, actually it probably reflects a very nominal increase in local mill rate, because it reflects all new construction that takes place and in many municipalities with very small parcels, only recently have they begun to apply for the grants. And the member will see tha t the grants jumped by over 1,0 00, a dramatic increase, but most of that increase was small parcels on which grants hadn' t been previously paid.

Not new buildings, we didn' t build that many new facilities but every new building, as it comes onstream, creates a tax liability to the province and grants in lieu of taxes and the number of applications has increased. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, could the Min ister undertake then to bring forward information as to the amount paid with respect to these additional new applic ations over last year? HON. A. ANSTETT: I'm advised that most of the ad ditio nal new applic ations were in respect of unpatented lands, on which grants had not previously been paid, so they would be relatively small.

The major increases would be new buildings. MR. G. MERCIER: Could the Min ister give us some sort of a general breakdown then? How much the new buildings would cost? HON. A. ANSTETT: No, Mr. Chairman. I would have some difficulty providing that. I can make a commitment to provide it to the member - well I think we'd have to examine how readily available the data is. To provide what the member is requesting would require a pulling of all of the files and applic ations to determine on each one what was new, what was old.

If the member is specifically looking for mill rate increases, perhaps if that's what the member is looking for in the Grants in Lieu of Taxes increases, we have that information and can provide that to the honourable member. He doesn't have to extrapolate it from this data. When we get to assessment, I believe we have a sample base that we used to reflect changes in mill rates province-wide and I can provide information for the member on that. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Chairman, the figures clearly indicate approximately a 10 percent increase in taxation from one year to the next.

The Min ister says, well it's not accurate because there are all of these other applications. When asked for information with respect to the other applications and what the new ones are costing, he is unable to give those to us. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, first I would point out there is a $1 million increase, slightly less than $1 milli on increase, on a $21 million budget, which is actually slightly less than 5 percent, not 10 percent, first of all. Secondly, I would advise the member that . . . MR. G. MERCIER: . . . compared to the actual. HON. A.

ANSTETT: Well, $1 million on $20 million, one-twentieth which is 5 percent. MR. G. MERCIER: Not compared to the actual. The actual was 21. 5 last year. HOl\I. A. ANSTETT: The actual was 21. 5 com pared to 20.6, so slightly less than $1 million increase in excess of $20 million budget. I see that as about 5 percent. I can advise the honourable member that the bulk of the new appl ications was with respect to unpatented land without doing a comple te count through the files - we didn' t keep that data.

We break out and tally the major recipients which are the larger communities where there are large government buildings. The Grants in Lieu of Taxes for all the small holdings are very minor, very small payments paid to most of the other communities. The member can see that approximately 5 percent of the money is paid to all those other communi ties. That's where the bulk of that unpatented land is going to be picked up, in that 5 percent and it would have been in previous years, small holdings in towns and villa ges and unpatented land.

The major communities, other than Northern Affairs, basically the cities and large towns that are listed there, get 95 percent of the money. The other thing I can point out for the benefit of the honourable member is that some of these increases will be entirely reflective of a reassessment. We could go to the reassessment chart and match up any commun itie s on which a reasse ssment was implemented in 1984. That being the case, for example, 1382

- • .a Monday, 29 April, 1985 an increase in a particular community might be reflective solely of reassessment. Now we know that is not the case for example in Winnipeg, unfortunately, but it could well be the case, for example in the LGD of Churchill. There may be no change in the LGD of Churchill, but there appears to be in the neighbourhood of a 50 percent increase from 1983 to 19 84 in the grants paid. So there's half a dozen different factors here.

I'd have to pull 3,500 files to provide the kind of detail the honourable member wants and I'm not sure that that would be a fruitful utilization of staff resources. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(c) - the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, while we're dealing with Grants in Lieu of Taxes, I notice on Page 3- 11 of your supplementary that you have lis ted during 1984, 210 abandone d railway parcels. Can the Mi nister indicate what has happened with rail line abandonment, railway property in general, and how long it is going to take before we get a clear resolution to the ownership of those properties. HON. A.

ANSTETT: I should point out to the honourable member that these properties are directly under the jurisdic tion of the Mini ster of Hig hways and the disposition of those lands is under his jurisdiction. Mo st of the pa rcels are still unde r the dir ect jurisdiction of the Federal Government, but as they are transferred and we take ownership of them, then we acquire these unpatented parcels and must place them as grants in lieu until such time as we effect disposition. My understanding is that the policy is in place but the member would be advised to, more directly, ask the Minis ter of Hig hways for detail.

I can't tell him much more than that. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I raise the issue here because the Municipality of Hamiota just approached me last week and unfortunately it was after we had completed the examination of the Highways Department Estimates. I believe the property they're interested in does not fall under rail line abandonment, as such.

It is railway property that is within the town limits and they are running into a blank wall every place they go because I bel ieve the commu nity is interested in developing an arena and they would like to obtain title; and if there is anything the Min ister of Municipal Affairs can do to assist them I would ask the Min ister to use what influence he has in his good office to assist the Municipality of the Town of Hamiota in clarifying the ownership of that property and assisting them in the transfer to the title of the town. HON. A.

ANSTETT: Now that I understand where the member was coming from, he used this item as a back door to put in a plug tor something my department is al ready working on and were inv ol ved in some discussion, so that the Town of Hamiota can acquire land which is former railway land; and my staff are actively engaged in assisting them in going through the hoops and hurdles, both provincial and federal, in assuring that this will take place.

I should point out, as the honourable member has, that this has nothing to do with grants in lieu of taxes or with abandoned railroad right-of-way, but I appreciate his question nonetheless. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(c)- pass. 3.(

d) Urban Transit Grants - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, could the Min ister, first of all, indicate what the policy is for Urban Transit Grants? Is it 50 percent of the net operating costs? HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes. MR. G. MERCIER: Could the Minister indicate what the tares have been in Brandon over the last four years? HON. A. ANSTETT: No. MR. G. MERCIER: Why not? HON. A. ANSTETT: I don't know. MR. G. MERCIER: Would the Minister undertake to get that informa tion? HON. A. ANSTETT: I beli eve we could, yes. MR. G.

MERCIER: Has the Minister imposed any conditions on the City of Brandon with respect to raising fares? HON. A. ANSTETT: No. MR. G. MERCIER: Has the Minister discussed that with the Min ister of Urban Affairs? HON. A. ANSTETT: No, but I would point out that the City of Brandon has to go to the Public Utilities Board with regard to their fare increases and I would not presume to, in any way, influence the City of Brandon when they are going before a quasi judicial body. MR. G.

MERCIER: Did the Min ister recommend to the Attorney-General that the people who took that matter to the Public Utilities Board receive legal aid funding? HON. A. ANSTETT: No, I did not make such a recommendation. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I note that the ridership in Brandon has decreased from virtually 2, 10 0,000 in 198 1 to 1. 7 million. Has the Min ister reviewed that decrease in ridership and can he advise the commi ttee of the reasons why the ridership has dropped by 300,000 in four years? HON. A. ANSTETT: I understand there were some revisions to the routes.

Those have subsequently changed back, at least in part, to what they originall y. I also understand that this whole matter the subject of a current appeal respecting the Utilities Board. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d) - the Member for St. Norb� MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Mini ster, I it, has no other policy respect to Transit 1383 - rbert. with

Monday, 29 April, 1985 Grants other than to pay 50 percent of the net operating costs. Whatever fares are established are up to the munici pality. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, as a matter of policy, I bel ieve in the automony of locally elected municipal gover nment. I belie ve that the citi zens of those municip alities, as ratepayers and as users of services, have mechanisms to appeal decisions made through the Public Utilities Board and I would not presume to reflect on either the decisions made by those locally elected officials or the adjudication done by the Public Util ities Board.

I expect them to spend their money wisely, and when they do so, I'm prepared to pay 50 percent of the operating deficit. MR. G. MERCIER: Could the Min ister explain why he has this philo sophy and it is so much dif ferent from the Minister of Urban Affairs in this government? HON. A. ANSTETT: I believe there isn't statutory provision for the reference of transit fare rates or rate increases in the City of Winnipeg. Therefore, the same degree of autonomy provided to municipalities outside of Winnipeg, through the Public Utilities Board, is not afforded in Winnipeg.

I cannot explain the genesis of that provision; it pre-dates perhaps both the Member for St. Norbert and myself, in the Legislature. MIR. G. MER CIER: Mr . Chairman, the Min ister's comments were much broader in scope than simply dealing with fares established by the City of Brandon Transit operation and I do not disagree with that posit ion. I think perhaps what I'm trying to do is encourage him to discuss that position with the Minister of Urban Affairs. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, I think the Member for St.

Norb ert knows well enough that the Minis ter of Urban Affairs and I both share a great respect for municip al officials and their decision-making responsi bili ties and the way they carry out those responsibi lities at the local level. MF!. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d) - the Member for St. Norbert. MF!. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister explain why the Hand i-Transit service grant, which is also part of this, is separated from the other support for Han di- Transit pr ograms in other munici pal jurisdictions? HON. A. ANSTETT: That's been an historical division.

One of the first Hand i-Transit grants and it was paid out with the deficit provision because it was operated initially by the Brandon Transit. So, for that reason, being one of the first - I guess it was the first outside of Winnipeg in the province - it was operated by Brandon Transit. It was paid by Muni cipal Affairs. Since that time, Handi-Transit has expanded into areas where there is no municipal transit system and the Department of Hig hways is providing those grants. Why this particular one is still here is really history rather than any specific rationale.

It would be logical, I suppose, to look to see that transferred to the Department of Hig hways in future years. There's no explanation for it other than history. MF!. G. MERCIER: Does the City of Brandon receive the same or different support from Municipal Affairs than other municipalities receive from the Department of Hig hways? HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, staff are unable to provide me with advice on that but, as I recall - and I'm going now from memory from the Cabinet papers put forward by the Min ister of Hig hways - the formula applied is identical. I can verify that. MR. G.

MERCIER: It would make sense to put them all under one department, I would think. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(

d) Urban Transit Grants- pass. 3.(

e) Centennial Grants - the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I note by the supple mentary figures that tre Min ister listed only two communities for the present year for Centennial Grants. Has there been an update on that that he could provide us with? HON. A. ANSTETT: No, Mr. Chairman, those are the oniy two. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, perhaps I'm rather unduly conscious of centennials because of last year. I take a look at the list and I find that five of the ones listed for last year were within my constituency. I think the Minister was out to most of them.

I can report, as I'm sure he is already aware, that the Centennial Program exceeded the expectations of almo st every communi ty and everyone who took part. In particular, the municipal people that were involved were very happy that the populace in general responded so well to the celebration of centennials. I expect that it's probably something much deeper. It's a sense of pride in their communi ty and a pride in being a Canadian, I guess, that has caused these centennial celebrations to have such wide acceptance.

The Minister may want to think it's because he is the Min ister, but I don't think that is truly the case. The Centennial Grants system has been one that has had trem endous appro val from the popula tion in general, and while I notice that only half of the money that was in the budget last year was spent, and we see the same amount in this year and we know for a fact that it will be considerably less, we can't change it because these things only happen once every 10 0 years and the settlement of Western Manitoba took place in a very short time frame as the West was populated just a little over 10 0 years ago.

With those few remarks, I know that we will not require the $10 0,000 unless there's a rash of appl ications in the next few days. I can't see that happening. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Chairman, there is actually only one confirmed centennial for next year. That is the R.M. of Thompson. The other two, Roblin and Cartwright, are based on settlement dates and we 1384

- - - • Monday, 29 April, 1985 expect that they may celebrate centennials in'8 5-86 based on the settlement dates. When Estimates are prepared, we're not aware of how many municipal ities will be making appl ication. In view of, as the Mini ster said, a rash of centennials in the last few years, we had to ensure that we provided sufficient funds. I do agree with the statements the honourable member made with regard to the importance of these celebrations.

I know that his remarks tonight closely paralleled his remarks on the speaking circuit last summer when we were together and we were both saying much the same thin g about pride in our communiti es, in our country and in being Canadians. So, I ap preciate that he shares with me those sentiments. I know that neither he nor I take any credit for any of those centennials seeing as how we're both at least about half that young. MR. H. GRAHAM: I just wanted to make a small comment on it because I think it was a very important part of the Department of Municipal Affairs.

It was certainly well received wherever it was acted on. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(

e) Centennial Grants- pass. 3.(

f) Police Services Grant - the Honourable Min ister. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I have some material for the comm ittee. Staff have copies here of an informational piece which describes the change that's been made in the grants and attaches some tables showing the impact on various municipalities, the actual amounts raised by the levy, the increase required centrally by the province into the Grants Program, and a detailed breakdown by individual municip ality of the exact impact of the levy based on one-half mill on equalized assessments.

Members may want to take a moment just to look at the top summa ry sheet which sets out the program. Most of that information was contained in the press release in late March, but this will provide members of the commi ttee and the media with sufficient detail, I believe, to examine and discuss this new initiative as fully as they wish. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Just a question here firstly, Mr. Chairman, to the Mini ster.

On the front page of the material he's just distributed, he refers at the bottom to the 8.4 percent increase in the 19 85-86 provincial­ municipal tax sharing grants. I don't think "grant" is the appropriate word to describe something to which municipalities are entitled by law, to whatever amount of money is raised with the 2.2 points of personal income tax, etc. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, I accept the member's point. I think you could easily change the word to "payment" just as an equalization payment from Ottawa is not a grant, it's a payment. Good point. The bottom line is still the same.

One-half mill grant, depending on the municipali ty, is either compl etely or mostly offset by the rather dramatic increase in the provincial-municipal tax sharing payments. MR. G. MERCIER: I don't want to pursue it because it's a bit semantic, but the argument for im plementing that change was that municipal it ies wanted to participate in revenue sharing; municipalities, of course, acting on the belief that revenues will always go up. The fact of the matter is that they sometimes go down and they must be prepared to accept the good with the bad. That's, frankly, the point I'm trying to make. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(

e) Centennial Grants- pass. 3.(

f) Police Services Grant - the Min ister of Northern Affairs. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to make a comment on this Police Services Grant. I know the community of The Pas has been lobbying for a fairer distribution of police costs amongst municipalities for many years. I know they have been after Municipal Affairs to allow them to put a tax on liquor in order to cover some of their police costs, which they felt was not a responsibility of theirs, because people coming in from the surrounding areas were contributing to the Town of The Pas's police costs.

I would just like to commend the Mi nister and his staff for the work that they have done in this area because I think it is a much fairer system, because the Town of The Pas was, I believe, paying in the vicinity of a 20 mill levy for their police costs. I see that they are one of the towns that is receiving the maximum $1 00,000 towards their police costs and I know that they appreciate it and I appreciate the work that has gone into the studies which was dealing with police costs in all parts of the province and it's something that is going to help the taxpayers of that area. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, can the Min ister indicate if he has the figures on the number of municipal communities or corporations in which they have their own police force rather than using the RCMP contract? HON. A. ANSTETT: There are approximately half-a­ dozen. MR. H. GRAHAM: Can the Minister indicate which ones they are? HON. A. ANSTETT: Brandon, Morden, Winkler, East St. Paul, Deloraine. MR. H. GRAHAM: Is Deloraine correct? HON. A.

ANSTETT: Technically, the Grants Program comes under this department; the providing of police services and the extension contracts comes under the Attorney-General's Department. We're. not general!:; seized of this informa tion, so perhap s since the Department of the Attorney-General's Estimates come up next, the honourable members could save that question for him. I' ll stand by about half a dozen leave it at that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Other questions? 1385 I ,-

Monday, 29 April, 1985 The Member for Rupertsland. MR. E. HARPER: The Mini ster doesn't mind me asking some questions? This is in regard to the tax sharing grant given to the reserves. What kind of a formula is used since the reserves are not assessed by property taxes or any kind of that sort? I believe it's based on a per capita grant. I was wondering what the amount is. HON. A.

ANSTETT: Yes, these grants are paid by the Department of Northern Affairs, not by Municipal Affairs, but the Department of No rthern Affairs uses the Municipal Affair's calculation system and this is not based on equalized assessment, but rather it's a per capita grant and therefore population figures are used. In accordance with generally accepted statistical practices, we use the 1981 census. MIR. E. HARPER: Yes I've had complaints about the 1981 census figures because . HON. A. ANSTETT: Really? MR. E. HARPER: One example I can give to you is the Garden Hill Reserve.

It's about 2,000 I believe right now, but they are being paid on a per capita grant based upon population of 800 people, so there are 1, 000 people that are being left out I was just wondering how this can be resolved , since the muni cipal department is the one that assesses or determines the figures. HON. A. ANSTETT: There is a provision in the formula that municip alities will not receive less as a result of population drops through census change, and this applies for example to the City of Thompson where those kinds of changes have taken place.

I take it the honourable member is not suggesting that there was a dramatic drop in population from 1976 to 19 81, because that would have been covered by that provision in the formula, as I understand it. But rather that since 1981 the population has increased, if I heard him correctly, 150 percent. There is no provision in the way the program is set up, to take that into account.

I trust that in the census next year that higher level will be reflected and then the amounts paid will be based on that higher level, but there is no provision under the act or in the operating formula to take measurements of population between the various censuses. I should point out to the ho nourable member that the Depar tment of Mu nici pal Affairs did, following the 19 76 census, conduct a special census because there was some concern about the accuracy of the federal census.

As I understand it, the total variation between the federal census data and the Northern Affairs data, although it did affect some communities, was not great enough to justify a special census again after the'81 census; so I accept the honourable member's statistics with regard to one particular communi ty but there is no provision in the formula, nor do I believe there is one in the admin istrative framework set up by the Department of No rthern Affairs for payments to communiti es under their jurisdiction. 1386 MR. E.

HARPER: What I was trying to clarify was that there were initial payments prior to 1981 census based on a population of 1, 800; but the following year they received a payment, population based on 800, so they've lost a thousand people, per capita grants. That's what I was trying to clarify, so I don't know whether it's been rectified at this point HON. A. ANSTETT: I think I mi su nder stood the member. I didn't realize there had been a higher figure of 1, 800 which then dropped to eight. There is provision for transitional payments.

I believe the honourable member should take that up with the Mi nister of Northern Affairs. If there is a technical problem in terms of the transition, then my department, which prepares the detail for the payments, as I understand it, can discuss that with the Department of Northern Affairs and see if that can be addressed, if there is an error. But if this is based on the actual measure by Statistics Canada and the transition formula does not come into play, then there's nothing that can be done. MR. E. HARPER: I will follow that up.

Last year's Estimates I asked the same question to Northern Affairs and they said that the thing will be resolved through the Municipal Affairs Department so I left it at that and I hadn't received any information as to whether it was rectified or not; but I wanted to make sure and clear the point that there are some bands that still would probably be receiving per capita grants at the much lower level and than would result later on in the year. HON. A.

ANSTETT: I'm prepared to have staff look at it in consultation with the department responsible for the payments but I can't promise the honourable mem ber anything. I'm not completely clear on exactly what the data is and we'll have to look at what changes have taken place over time, whether they were eligible for any transition payments du ring the period of population change and check it out further from there. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(f) - the Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Could I ask the Minister, Mr.

Chairman, of the $1 19 ,309 in subsidies paid to rural and urban municipali ties, ·can he tell us those rural and urban municipalities that are involved in the subsidies? HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, if I can ask the member a question. He was referring to $1 80,000 in subsidies now? MR. W. McKENZIE: On the placing costs and grants formulas presented to us on the bottom of the second last, at the bottom, it says, "Approximately $1 19,309 in sub sidi es will be paid to rura l and urban municipalities." I'd like the Mi nister to tell us which are the rural and urban municipalities he's ref erring to. HON. A.

ANSTETT: If the honourable member will turn to Page 1 of the long sheets, the two 8.5 by 14 sheets, he will see the provision for phase-out grants. Those are the grants that are in brackets that will be payable only in one year; and if the honourable member adds the figures on that column, the bracketed column, he

- Monday, 29 April, 1985 will see it's $77,624 to those commun ities. On Page 2 there are some rural munici palitie s which receive Policing Grants, for a total of $4 1,685.00. Those two figures added together give the $1 19 ,000 and that's the comple te list. MR. W. McKENZIE: Could the Min ister now list the municip alities receiving free services? HON. A. ANSTETT: No, Mr. Chairman, I can't. It's a very long list. Basical ly, everyone who was not on the list for a grant was paying. If the member turns to the list of municipalities to which the half-mill levy will apply, in effect, that is the list.

It's basically all of the rural municip alities. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, that list on Page 1 then, the last column on the right-hand side, shows a phase-out grant. If you were not shown as having received or going to be receiving a grant, does that mean that those municip alities received something last year but aren't going to receive anything this year? HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Chairman, those municipalities that under the new provincial average formula would not be eligible for a grant because their mill rate is below the provincial average of approximately 15 .3 mills for 1984 actual, will not be eligible for a grant in future years, but this year we are paying the grant to assist them with their budgeting so that they have a one year phase out so that there is no untoward impact in the first year and so that they can plan for it. MR. G. MERCIER: For example, looking under towns and cities over 5,000, there's shown no grant for Dauphin, Flin Flon, Steinbach, Thompson and Winkler.

Did they receive a grant last year? HON. A. ANSTETT: Just to clarify, the previous formula provided grants only for municipalities with populations between towns and villages with populations of between 750 and 1, 500. No communi ty with more than 1,5 00, that was incorporated in the province, received a grant in the past. This was one of the serious inequities in the formula.

It is why I appointed the special Min isterial Advisory Committee which came up with the unanimous one-mill levy recommendation last fall; and which, because of the impo sition that might have meant on rural municipalities and on our farming communi ty in a time of some severe farm income stress, I reduced to one-half mill, after consulting with the executives of the two associations. The member can appreciate that members of the larger urban munici palities were pleased to see some assistance, would have liked the whole mill in the formula.

The rural municip alities, whose executives on the committee had unanimously participated in the work and the recommendation, were also pleased that the impact was going to be a very modest half-mill levy. What we have now is a system in which everyone above 750 population is treated equally. There still are some anomalies with those communties below 750 or those who allege to be below 750. MR. G. MERCIER: It's proposed that these phase-out grants will be for one year only, will not be repeated next year? HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, the phase-out is for one year only.

The member will notice, and this is why it's one year only - I'll be quite frank - it would have been an admin istrative nightmare to try and work it over several years because the mill rates change, the provincial average changes, and some community which had a grant previously and I point out, for example, the Village of Ste. Anne had a grant which is being phased out, of 3762, but under the new formula, they're going to get a grant of 5983.

Some communities were eligible both under the old system and are now eligible for more under the new; some are eligible for less under the new; some who were eligible before are no longer eligible; some who did not acquire grants before will be getting them under the new system. MR. G. MERCIER: There is no change in the grant - or does it come under here now? - for the resort communi ties? HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Chairman. The resort communities come under the formula the same as everyone else. They are all rural municipalities or towns or villa ges such as Winnipeg Beach, and they will come under the formula.

If their mill rate for policing is above the provincial average, a grant to bring them down to the provincial average will be provided. MR. G. MERCIER: Which communities are affected there then? Victoria Beach? HON. A. ANSTETT: Well, for example, Winnipeg Beach - the Village of Winnipeg Beach on the village list - I don't see it here.

Winnipeg Beach isn't on here because it's less than 750 people so it will continue to receive free policing for all intents and purposes except for the half-mill levy. 1387 Victoria Beach had received a grant before on Page 2 of the long sheets, will no longer receive a grant because its levy is below 15 .3 mills. MR. G. MERCIER: Could the Min ister advise if he's received a budget from the Town of Emerson? HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes. MR. C. MERCIER: What amount is shown for policing? HON. A.

ANSTETT: We have received a budget but those staff who are here have not seen it, so I can't tell the honourable member what amount is recorded for policing. I understand, though, from other sources that there is no provision for policing in that budget. MR. C. MERCIER: Does the bu dget have to approved by the department? HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes. -- be

Monday, 29 April, 1985 MR. G. MERCIER: By when? HON. A. ANSTETT: It'll be approved within the next week or so. MR. G. MERCIER: Is there a specific date for approval? HON. A. ANSTETT: No. Mr. Chairman, if I may, perhaps I could be of some help to the honourable member rather than going through a question and answer routine.

I can advise the honourable member that staff of my department along with staff of the Attorney­ General's Department have met and held discussions - and I believe since then there have been further discussions - with the Town of Emerson with respect to their ob li gations to provide policing for their ratepayers. I hope to be announcing an arrangement in that regard shortly although I am not able to do that tonight, but I believe that matter is capable of resolution. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister, I believe he said the level was 15 .3 mills that was established for policing. HON. A. ANSTETT: For 19 84, the average mill rate of all communities who are paying for policing was 15 .3 mills. Mr. Chairman, at the bottom of Page 1 of the long list, it shows 16 .3, but the figure I have had all along was 15 .3. I think the sheet may be in error. I believe the figure for 19 84 - it's now confirmed - is 15 .3. You can correct that sheet; I think it was a typog raphical error. Maybe we should just throw this all away and I'll go from memory. That will be the average for'84.

Next year that average will change - it may go up, it may go down - depending on the needs in consultation with the communities and their local police departments or with the RCMP who are providing extension contract service. The grant, then, will be reflective of that change. MR. H. GR AHAM: Mr. Cha irman, is the Mi nister indicating that there is going to be an annual parade on advisory com mittee mee ting with the various municipalities to establish an average each year and on the basis of those meetings you're going to then set the mill rate? Is that what the Minister is suggesting? HON. A.

ANSTETT: No, absolutely not, Mr. Chairman. The mill rate for policing is established reflective of the actual mill rate assigned to policing costs within each of these munici palities this year. This year's grant is based on last year's mill rate assigned for policing. This has nothing to do with the municipal meetings in June of each year. This report came from a ministerial advisory commi ttee consisting of representatives from the two associations and staff both from the Attorney­ General's Department and my department. I don't propose that they would perform this task every year.

I hope to see this formula in place for a number of years. I do not propose that the levy be increased though. I hope that the levy will be in place until we get assessment reform and no longer have to rely on equalized assessment, then we can address this in a much more fair and equitable way. There's no question this is a stopgap measure. It reflects the need for a more equitable distribution of policing costs while at the same time, the base unit we measure municipal-fiscal capabili ty, the equalized assessment basis, is not the fairest and best there is.

It is the best we've got, so we're using it now to address a pr oblem that local mu nicip al gover nment has recognized and been asking the senior government in this province to address for more than half a dozen years. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, what assurance can the Minister give that the levy next year will be one­ half mill? HON. A. ANSTETT: The member has my personal word on it. MR. H. GRAHAM: There is no formula in place, though? HON. A.

ANSTETT: I announced and the member - if he has a copy of the press release from last March - will be aware that we announced at that time there wou ld be an amendment to The Mu nicip al Admi nistration Act, specifically providing for the levy. MR. H. GRAHAM: We'll have to wait until we see the act. HON. A. ANSTETT: Well the amendment will not specify one-half mill. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, that was . HON. A. ANSTETT: Your next question. MR. G.

MERCIER: The Mi nister is indicating that the legislation will allow the Mi nister the discretion to increase it by Order-i n-Council? HON. A. ANSTETT: I'm not purporting to describe the legislation. I didn't say it would be by Order-in-Council or by ministerial order. The provision now - and there is some question as to whether or not the amendment's even needed - but I wanted to give members of the House an opportunity to review the program and make the legisla tive authority very clear.

But The Municipal Admini stration Act now provides for author ity for ministerial levies of certain types, including levies in consultation with the two municipal associations. I would remind honourable members that this levy flows from a unanimous recommendation of the two associations requesting a 1 mill levy. I have given them my personal assu rance to a full mee ting of the executives of both associations that it would not be my, nor the government's intention, to increase the one-half mill levy until assessment reform was in place. The big problem with policing costs is reflective of - and the Member for St.

Norbe rt as a former Attorney­ General is aware of this - a transfer, an off loading of policing costs from the Federal Government to the provinces and to municipal government. 1388

- Monday, 29 April, 1985 I suspect that after assessment reform the actual amount of the levy would drop because assessed values will be reflective much more of market reality and therefore the amount raised by a mill or a portion of a mill will increase dramatically. I have assured municipal government it is not my intention until the 10 -year contract is renegotiated - and that's 199 1 - to examine in any detail the question of changes to the levy or to the program. They responded with utmost confidence by assuring me that they expected me to be the Minister in that year and be able to keep my word right through till 1991. MR. H. GRAHAM: There may be changes in store. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(

f) Police Services Grant- pass. The Honourable Minis ter. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, before we pass this resolution I would like to thank members for their contribution on this item and I would like, as we finish the item, to say good-bye to a Municipal Services Officer who has been with the department for a very long time, was our first Municipal Services Officer. He's been ill lately and has chosen to retire next month on May 16 th, Mr.

Morris Hay, and those of you who have been involved in municipal government and interested in the Department of Municipal Affairs over the last several years will know him as a very dedicated civil servant who had a wide range of abiliti es and provided a great deal of leadership to municipal government. Since we are now ending the discussion of this

section of of the Estimates in a branch in which he worked for quite a number of years, it's an opportunity to pay special tribute to a retirement that's noteworthy and thank him on behalf of all of the munici palities in Manitoba, and I trust on behalf of all the members of this comm ittee, for his dedicated efforts in improving municip al administration across the province. I'm sure all members want me to convey those sentiments to him as well. MR. H. GRAHAM: Please do. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 11 2: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty, a sum not exceeding $25,9 10 ,700 for Municipal Affairs, Municipal Advisory and Financial Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1986- pass. What is the pleasure of the commit tee? HON. A. ANSTETT: Comm ittee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: Comm ittee rise. SUPPLY - HE ALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: Comm ittee come to order. We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Health, Item 7, the Medical Program line - the Honourable Min ister of Health. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: It was requested of me the estimated population per position. The last information that I have, we're pretty close to the average, I guess. Newfoundland is 597 - that's one position for 597 people; Quebec is 487; Alberta, 603; Nova Scotia, 524; Ontario, 500; British Columbia, 493; Prince Edward Island, 81 2; Manitoba, 499; Yukon, 723; New Brunswick, 81 0; Saskatchewan, 646; Northwest Territories, 1, 369; and the average in Canada is 51 9. Psychiatry, we are in fifth place. The time recorded in minutes is 60.

Nova Scotia is top with $80.90; British Columbia, $82; Ontario, $80. 10; Al berta, $78.50; Ma nitoba $68.80; New Bruns wick , $68.40; Saskatchewan, $67; Newf oundla nd, $58.86; Prince Edward Island, $56.60; Quebec, $49.60, so we're fifth, as I mentioned. I would want to emphasize again that the MMA is responsible for the allocation of the funds that they receive between different groups. In the last agreement that we have, there was half a million dollars to shore up specific areas and, of this amount, they took ap proximately one- third to go to psychiatry or $1 64,000.00.

The take-home pay or the net revenue, we'll have to check on this with the income tax thing to see what we can find. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Ho nour able Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, were all of those psychiatric fee schedules basis a 60-minute hour? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Apparently this works by . . quarter of an hour, but it is possible in certain areas to work as low as the 46 minutes and get paid for that fourth quarter . . . In other words, they're all maximum up to 60 minutes and then ... (inaudible) ...

Nova Scotia 46, British Columbia 60, Ontario 46, Alb erta 60, Manitoba 60, New Brunswick 46, Saskatchewan 53, Newfou ndland 46, Prince Edward Island 50, Quebec 55. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, given that there are variations in the minutes, does that still mean that Manitoba's fifth, if you factor in the time allotment? HON. L DESJARDINS: It's pretty hard to tell if somebody is just out to see the minimum minutes, I guess all they have to do is set the alarm clock and quit at 46 minutes and get paid for the hour. As I say, it's in quarters and it is only in that case that they would receive more.

Apparently, there has been a report from the Health Information Division of the National Health and Welfare and they've got us fifth there also taking everything that was done. It's very, very difficult to assess. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, no doubt it is very difficult to assess. In negotiations, no doubt, the profession itself makes the point that you can't go solely by the hourly rate when the hourly rate is based varying lengths of time to accomplish that billing whatever the hourly rate is.

I suppose that will be problem that is going to face MMA as well as MH SC, but I think and, I didn't have a chance to write do•"n the numbers the Min ister gave, I'll look forward reading them in Hansard and maybe we'll have ar: opportunity at a later time to make a comparison. 1389 ,_

Monday, 29 April, 1985 Mr. Chairman, the Min ister is aware of a problem in 3ritish Columbia where they have attempted to direct lew physicians into areas which presumably are mderstaffed in terms of the patient to doctor or per >opulation to doctor statistic, and that has been ruled mconstitutionaL They had to stop giving their billing lUmbers only to areas where they wanted the doctors :o locate. In terms of our average distribution of medical doctors n the Province of Manitoba: 1. Do we have any areas that are sign ificantly �nde rserved in terms of med ical doctor s on the )Opulation ratios, and 2.

If that's the case, what sort of programs or ncentives, if any, are available to attempt to rectify that? HON. I... DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, the MMA and the staff of the Commis sion were looking at the manpower situation just to try to arrive at some way of remedying that. I think that someday there'll have lo be some rules made. Manitobans are paying for the costs and I don't know of any other position where you just say well I want to practice there and that you pay if they're needed or not.

You take teachers and so on, you don't see people going in and taking Education and so on and then say here I want to teach in St. James, or Carman or St Boniface. The business is, there has to be a position. I find it very difficult that government can't come up with something that will be accepted to say fine you might be able to practice right outside of the plan. We need so many doctors in certain areas. There has been all kinds of suggestions made.

I even remem ber reading some thing from an Americ an medical review, I think it was, they suggested they should draft the doctors like they did during the War and say this is where you'll go. I think there's more to it than that. I don't think it's just that they don't want to go in the rural area for social reasons. I think there's more than that. I think it is the training. I've suggested also and discussed, brie fly mi nd you, with the Dean of Medicine the possibility of looking at the situation, the teaching and training of doctors.

Now it's done for specialists and for all these facilities and for large hospitals and they feel that they are robbed if they haven't got all these facilities besides the social thing, which is another problem, and then to be with some of their peers also where they could discuss things and work together and so on. I think it's the whole thing. I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong, but maybe we should look. Maybe the universities and the medical schools should be looking at the situation.

Are people really trained in the right way or is their education proper or should there be a different emphasis on being able to have G.P.s or people in family practice and so on that could go on and work and not necessarily have all these specialists and all these facilities. I don't know. It sounds pretty good what I think B.C. was doing. B.C. said we'll give you, and I know that they'll have to bring legislation - I know because of the Constitution - to be honest with you, I must admit I'm starting to have second thoughts on this business of Constitution.

I don't know, pretty soon we won't need any Legislatures at all. It'll be all the cou rts that will decide. - (I nterjection) - Well, I'm starting to - (I nterjection) - I'm admitting that I have concern. It seems that we're elected to bring legislation and more and more the court decides. So, the situation could be somewhat difficult if that is the case. I think you'll be afraid to bring in any legislation at all. That is a situation. I think that the intent was to do something like that.

Right now, and especially in Psychiatry - and watch me catch hell tomorrow morning - I think the situation it is so lucrative compared to working where I think they really need a heck of a lot more, working with the programs like some of these institutions or with the youngsters, psychiatric schools, psychiatric adolescent, psychiatric hospitals or institutions. I think this is what B.C. was talking about one time, that they would say, well you could make so much money, you could build a commission, for instance, up to a certain amount, then you'll be - you know we're not saying then you can't work.

That's not what they are saying. I think the possibility would be that then they would have generous, very generous sessional payments. In other words you would work in your sector, the people that think, well it's a great thing to have your own private psychiatrist and that, but you would give certain time to maybe Selkirk Hospital or the Adolescent Institution, and so on, and then you would be paid besides, once you've reached the maximum, that you would be paid , as I say, generou sly, but through sessional fees. I think if that could be done, I would like to discuss that.

I intend to discuss with the . . . it's no use talking with them now until this business of extra billing is decided, one way or another, because the majority of them do not want talk. When that is settled I think we'll have to talk. I think they're certainly entitled to proper fees, but I think we're also entitled to see where they're needed and where the money is spent. I would much sooner work with the MM A and the Commission to see if we can get together and have some voluntary thing or something can be done without bringing in this kind of legislation.

But I do understand how some provinces and some government bring in legislation like that. It's okay to talk about the freedom of the indi vidu al but the taxpayers have to pay 'tor that also. It should be something that profits the population in general, as much as possible, and to emphasize where certain specialties are needed more. MR. D.

ORCHARD: So is the Min ister saying that is a problem which is under review, but the Minister doesn't have any proposals on the horizon to attempt to resolve the problem, or is he actively pursuing some process by which the underserved - or at least the statistically underserved areas - will be able to avail themselves of a new medical practitioner? Is the Minister saying that nothing is in place right now and nothing is being done? HON. L DESJARDINS: I certainly didn't say that.

But I mean over the period of years by the former government, the Schreyer Government before that, it hasn't been always all that successful. Now Dr. George Johnson, the former Deputy Minister, this is his main 1390 B n u p u n t i u p i

- - Monday, 29 April, 1985 responsibili ty to work on this manpower business. He's been working very hard with the MM A and so on. Now we have programs in place but those are being reviewed to see if things can improve. Summer work experience, first and second year medical students. There are loans to third and fourth year medical students. These are different programs that would provide some incentive. Post-graduate assistance for rural Manitoba residency in the Faculty of Medicine. There are incentive grants for positions commencing practice in a designated medically under serviced area.

There's Family Residence Placement Program. These are some of the programs that we have and this is being reviewed to see if some of these programs might be useless and to see if we direct our programs and our incentives better or find other ways to cope with it. MR. D. ORCHARD: On the programs the Min ister has mentioned tonight, has he got a ballpark figure of what those programs cost the taxpayers in an attempt to spread the doctors to areas that are underserved right now? HON. L. DESJARDINS : Ap proxi mately a total of $200,000.00.

There's summer work experience, first and second year, at approximately $4,500 per year, that's $32,000; incentive loan, third and fourth year medical students - six at $9,000 - $54,000; rural Manitoba reside nts, $75,000; inc entiv e gr ant to physicians beginning service in designated medically underserviced area - two at $7,500, that's $1 5,000; family practice, rural placement, $1 0,000; administrative cost, quarterly meetings, advertising, etc., $1 4,000 for a total of $200,000.00.

I would like to inform my honourable friend that tomorrow I'll bring him a document that will spell out, in more detail, the work of the Standing Commi ttee on Medical Man power. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, let me attempt to explain a situation that I believe exists - the Minister can correct me if I'm wrong. This may well apply to doctors who are graduated outside of Canada, foreign doctors, for instance.

Hospitals, the major hospitals in Winnipeg all have comm ittees, I believe struck of administration, plus the medical staff, heads of the various medical departments and basically it's that group which establishes admitting privile ges for surgical procedu res prim arily , but establishes admitting privileges in the various hospitals in Winnipeg. I don't know how stringent the admitting privi leges and the ability of a doctor to get admitting privil eges to a given hospital is, as a new practitioner to the city.

It has been pointed out to me from time to time that that can be a limiting factor for a medical doctor to take up his practice, for instance, in Health Sciences Centre or possibly even St. Boniface.

I don't know whether the same almo st restrictive abili ty is there at Misericordia, Grace, Concordia, Seven Oaks or Victora Hospitals in the city but it almost, from the outset, would appear as if there is a certain amount of relocation effort - shall I put it that way? - or effort to get particularly newcomer doctors, doctors new to 1391 the country into areas other than Winnipeg simply by res tricting or not allowing access and adm itting privileges to some of the major hospitals in the City of Winnipeg.

Does that, in fact, happen and is that doing something to move some of the medical doctors into the rural Manitoba in particular? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, it's true that usually the method follo wed is that the doctor will apply to a hospital for admitting privileges and the medical committee there, the medical staff will decide, but there is also a medical appointment review comm ittee, Manitoba -wise, province-wise, provincial-wise that is quite representative and if they have trouble and if they feel that they were treated unfairly or if nothing is advancing or if they've been suspended or if their privileges have been reduced or suspended, they can appeal to that. But I think, like everything else, there's a time where you have too many of them.

That is not conducive to good standards and some of them will have to be refused and especially when we know that there's too many doctors around; and that is one of the reasons now - that might be denied - but strongly, one of the reasons why people are always talking about beds. I think you will see in the Evans Report that, for instance, you have 25 percent more G.P.s in Winnipeg than you had 10 years ago, roughly the same population. You had pretty well enough beds then and now, look at everybody is yelling for beds. I think that is one of the situations.

I guess it could be said that there's enough beds for the patients but not enough beds for the doctors and I'm not saying this to criticize anybody. That's what I'm talking about when we say we have to change the motivation of some of these people, when we have to work with them, like any other groups, and it might be that this has to be done and that there's emphasis on doing more of this work, maybe in the doctor's office and not for admittance services, that there's early discharge and so on, so that some of these things could be done.

But there's no doubt in my mind that the way it is set up now is not the best possible way, so I really don't know if some people - I would hope that this should happen, that if someone is refused admitting privileges that they might want to stay in Manitoba and go to an area where a doctor is needed and I suspect that might happen in some cases, but not too many. I think the reasons that I gave earlier are some of the reasons. As I say, it's not just the social displacement and so on that these people don't want to stay in the city. There's other reasons than that MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister made an interesting comment, that it appears as if there's enough beds for the patients but there isn't enough beds for the doctors. Of course, we can probably discuss that more fully when we get into the Hospital line. Mr. Chairman, I think - and the Minister can correct me if I'm wrong - in terms of surgical procedures, particularly elective surgery, the waiting lists have increased over the last several years and I'm given to understand that the possibility of cancellations is increasing. I had a discussion with a medical doctor

Monday, 29 April, 1985 recently where three out of four scheduled procedures for one particular time period of a few weeks back were cancelled because the beds weren't available and the operating theatre space wasn't available as well. Mr. Chairman, that, I think, will do more to solve the Minis ter's problem and the province's problem of not having enough doctors in some of the underserviced areas.

I think as we discuss the hospital Estimates, we will find that there are probably enough beds to go around in acute care in the province, given our current complement of medical doctors, if a sizeable number of those beds weren't blocked by chronic care and extended care patients.

When you have the circumstance where physicians are trying to book elective surgery and slot patients in to get elective surgery done and they find at the last moment that the procedure has to be cancelled because a bed never freed up and, therefore, that particular physician, of course, has nothing to do and, I suppose, that's a disappointment from a monetary standpoint for him personally, but I think his greater concern defin itely lies with the fact that his patient has to wait another period of time to get rescheduled.

Under those circums tances, where that certainly appears to be a phenomenon that's increasing rather than decreasing and you have those same physicians with some control, not the entire control, but some control over whether new physicians can have admitting privileges for surgery or other processes in the hospitals when you 've al ready got the existing admi tting physicians having difficulty looking after their present patient load and the present patient need for hospitalization and surgical process or whatever, you're going to find those same physicians being, I would suspect, very caut ious about giving anybody new admitting privileges when, as I say, their own patients aren't receiving the kind of prompt attention, the prompt care that they had been able to provide just a few years ago.

Now, Mr. Chairman, that may be drawing a long bow, so to speak, to say that the two will be related enough for the one problem to solve another problem, so to speak. In other words, the problem of disparity of doctors throughout the province, that problem being solved by the fact that new doctors or doctors that are emigrating to the province may not be able to get admitting procedures in the Winnipeg hospitals and if they want to carry out their profession, go elsewhere. I wonder if the Min ister might see that as a growing reality and a growing phenomenon. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, the immi gration policy of the Federal Government is that no doctors would have any extra points to emig rate to Canada because they are do ctors. No w, th at polic y, the government has been quite concerned about. It's not just that you want to discrimina te but, in effect, there is actually discrimination against Canadian students also who have a hard time going in if somebody comes in by the back door. These are all legitima te concerns. You don't want to discrimina te and, again, you can't discrimi nate against your own people either. The fact is there are too many doctors now.

They won't allow them in unless many of them come in understanding and signing a document that says fine, 1392 they know that they're not going to have room to practice medicine, but once they're in it's a different thing. Others will be recruited and get the okay because a certain communi ty wants a doctor and they've been able to recruit one in another country - in England, in Pakistan, whatever. Too often, they might be in the rural area for one year and then they're back in the city. So, it's not that cut and dried. It's not that easy.

When the statement was made, I want to make that clear if it wasn't clear, I said that the statement - I think it was Dr. Evans who made the statement and I was repeating a statement that was made - that there might be enough doctors for patients, but not enough for doctors. I would tell you right now and this will not be accepted, I suppose, by the members of the community, but the economis ts are pretty well all in one voice say that there are too many beds in Canada. You can just imagine telling the public that there are too many beds in the hospital.

They will tell you that there are too many beds and they will tell you that's where the cost is. The cost is not with the doctors, it is the beds. Mind you, they generate revenue. Now, having said that, I don't think anybody is saying that everybody that is looking for a bed should not have a bed. It's true that some of the wrong people are in the beds at times, that there should be other incentives, other things. Now many in the medical profession will tell you themselves that there is too much surgery being done. Those are not my opinions.

I'm just saying some of the things that make it difficult because of all these things that you hear that it's a good thing. I've had a cardiac surgeon and I've had cardiologists tell me we must have a waiting list and that is what controls us. If not, we would be in trouble. There has to be a waiting list for cardiac surgery. Now, you read from the medical journal and they are saying that. I read an

article not that long ago that, fine, you've got to treat more maybe with medicine. You don't automatically figure, well, this is great - you have open-heart surgery and a bypass and everthing is fine. These are the points that are being made. Then they're talking about to use the beds wisely also. I don't know how many times it was mentioned in this House in the time that I've been here; I've mentioned it myself and it do esn't seem to get anywhere. People are talking about admitting privileges, but maybe the younger ones who are trying to break in should have admitt