Volume 3 PROVtNCE OF NEW.POUN.DLANO TMIFtTV~XTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY Of NEWFQllN.DLANO 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, APRIL 18, 1974 SPEAKER'!' THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL ,. Number 46

April 18, 1974 The House met at 3:QO P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape no. 1167 Page 1 - MW PETITIONS: MR. H. W. c. GILLETTE: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Bridgeport, Notre Dame Bay, in the District of Twillingate. The prayer of the petition is to have a road, which 1s locally known as the Route Road, approximately one-quarter of a mile in length, rebuilt and upgraded as it is now in a deplorable condition and overflowed by water which cannot be contained by the present drainage. Thia petition, Mr.

Speaker, is signed by some sixty-eight residents ~f Bridgeport, which must be a vast majority of the residents of Bridgeport. Hr. Speaker, I know the road. It is very narrow and it is as bad as · the writer of this petition states. It is overflowing and almost impassible on times. I trust that the Minister of Transportation and Co1111111Dications will see fit to have this one-quarter of a mile of road rebuilt and upgraded. I ask that this_ petition be placed on the table of the Bouse and referred to the ~apartment to which it relates. MR • .J. CARTER: . Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of some 200 residents of the Old Broad Cove Road. The petition reads: ''We,the undersigned, request the Bouse of Assembly to ask the Minister of Transportation and eo-unicatioos that the Old Broad Cove Road be upgraded and paved this year. •we believe our ·petition has particular urgency in view of the following: There are in excess of one hundred private houses along it, four miles,and more under construction. There are three commercial firms, a shop, an ex~ange of the Newfoundland Telephone Company and a gravel pit of the Department of Transpo.rtation.

It is only eight miles from the city and the road is an important link between. two of 3575

April 18, 1974 Tape no. 1167 Page the principal roads leading into and out of the city, Portugal Cove Road and Thorburn Road. It also shares much of the traffic of Bennett Road, Bradbury Road, Witch Hazel Road, Oliver's Pond Road, Tote Road anJ Goat Cove Road, between St. Phillip's and Portugal Cove, all of which are coanected to it. "During the school year, five school busses, three junior school and two high school busses are routed along this road, and during the SUDll!ler fleets of trucks from the Department of Transportation use the road in connection with the gravel pit.

Throughout the entire year other heavy trucks, maximum gross weight from. 42,000 pounds to 74,000 pounds, use the road in order to service three farms with livestock feed. "It is no exaggeration to say that in all seasons of the year, the Old Broad Cove Road is in a state of disrepair. In the sumner the traffic and the rain combined put potholes back quicker than the graders can fill them. There is also the considerable inconvenience of dust. At other ~easons things become even worst.

In freezing conditions, instead of potholes, there are dangerous ice ravines whi~h -with the thaw,of _snowbanks,quickly become ponds and streams. Two years ago during the spring thav no traffic_whatsoever was able to negotiate the road.for tve d·ays,. the i::oad ~~n~!i in such disrepair, despite · the beat efforts of the graders and the constant expenditure of the Department of Transportat:1.cm The conclusion seems inescapable,the departMnt would save expenditure by upgrading and paving the~e four miles. '' How, Mr. Spe4ker, as I have said, there are over 200 signatures oa this petition.

They are residents, they are all adults ~d they are all voters. I have heard it suggested that it must cost in the neigb6ourhood of $50,000 a year to maintain this road and while I feel that this figure is probably excessive, still there is no doubt in my mind that the amount of money that is· spent on that road every year is certainly considerable because that road suffers every year from severe washouts. 3576

April 18, 1974 Tape no, 1167 Page 3 I would guess that it could be paved and upgraded for something in the vicinity of $200,000 chis year. I think it would be a very economical way to spend $200,000 because I think that this would once and for all save this annual repair bill. The road, of course, is built over land which has a high water table, much of it going through a valley and as a result it is a quagmire in spring and fall. In the summer when it dries out, it is a dust bowel and, of course, there is a tremendous build up of ice in the winter.

Now I am sure that if there were no paving proposed for this year that would be one thing, the residents could perhaps put up with the inconvenience but in the face of any paving in Newfoundland anywhere, they feel that they have priority. Mr. Speaker, if any member of this government have any doubt about the necessity of this project, I will gladly take them for a ride over that road. I am sure that within half an hour they would change their mind. I would, therefore, ask that this petition be placed upon . the table of the Bouse and presented to the department to which jt relates. MR.

S.A.NEARY: Hr. 'Speaker, we on this side of the Bouse support this petition on behalf of the ZOO residents who reside along the Old Broad Cove Road: · Si!. 2 I go over this road once in a while myself and I certainly concur with the Member for St. John's North that the road is probably one of the worst stretches of gravel road in this . ... area. It is in a bad state of disrepair, Sir, and needs to be upgraded and paved. It is a reasonable request that these people are making down there.

I might say, Sir, that I have more than a passing interest in this particular stretch of road be~ause under redistribution, Sir, part of that area there will become a part of the new District of Portugal Cove-Bell Island. 3577

April 18, 1974 Tape no. 1167 Page 4 I hope, Mr. Speaker, that now that the Minister of Transportation and Communications and myself are kissing cousins that he will see to it, Sir, that that road is upgraded and paved before the next provincial election. It is a reasonable request, Sir, and I hope the Minster of Finance will pass a few sheckles over to his colleague there and try to g~t that work done this year. MR. E. M. ROBERTS (Leader of the Opposition): I would like to say a few words, not as the putative member for the district but rather as a resident of the area, Sir, on the Old Broad Cove Road.

I think I can claim to be at least as familiar with it as the Hon. Member for St. John's North as I am sure I have bounced in a car over every pothole on the road. I think the request is entirely reasonable. There is a large population, Mr. Speaker, living in the area bounded by Winsor Lake and the Thorburn Road and the Portugal Cove Road on three sides and the seacoast on the other. There must be, including the people of Portugal Cove and the people of St. Phillip'•• 5,000 or 6,000 people in that area. The Old Broad Cove Road is one of the main traffic arter-lea in the area.

I think it is particularly relevant and appropriate·and timely that this petition come _forward now. There are persistent rumours in the area that the tote Road is to be paved thi• summer. The Miniater of Finance has made my point for me because·be lives, in the summer months , at least, along the tote Road, whicQ gives access to the rich people's part of Bogan' s Pond. AH HON . MEMBER: (~audible). MR. iOBEUS: I do not think. the Member for Bell Island should count on the Member for St.

John's West voting for him, ·~or: _I Aci.. n~~:.: · After all the Member for Bell Island would not want one hundred per cent of the votes in the new Constit~encyof Portugal Cove-Bell Ialand. Be would not want the Minister of Finance with him,I should not think.. 3578 I

April 18, 1974 Tape no. 1167 Page 5 Mr. Speak.er, if the Tote Road is to be payed, as the people living on that road expect (I ·do not know where they got the impression but they are under that impression, the livers, the permanent residents) then I think it would be entirely appropriate that the Old Broad Cove Road be done as well. The Old Broad Cove Road and the Witch Hazel Road are the only major arteries, besides the Tote Road, in that area that are not paved.

Bennett's Road has been paved, the Thorburn Road is paved and, of course, the Portugal Cove Road is paved, and Tucker's Hill, the Marine Drive running along has been paved, as has the Horse Cove Line, running over to the Topsail Highway. ·Mr. Speaker, I think it is very appropriate and as a resident of the area and as well as a Member of the House, I am delighted to lend support to the petition. MR. SPEAKER: It has been brought to my attention that we have in - the galleries the Mayor and Deputy Mayor "of Port Union and also the Chairman of the Community Council of Melrose.

On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome these gentlemen to the galleries today. REPORTS OF STANDING AND SELECT COMMITTEES: RON. DR. G. ROWE (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the lleport of the Royal Comission on Nursing Education. I would like to say that on the cover it shows the month of February. The report was actually submitted by the commissioner on February 28 to the Clerk of the Executive Council and then went to the printers. It was just received back from the printers a week or so ago. It is now being tabled at the earliest opportunity. HON. G.

DAWE (Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Collection Agency's Regulations, 1974. NOTICE OF MO~ION: HON. L. BARRY (Minister of Mines and Energy): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on tomorrow I will ask leave to in.traduce a bill, "An Act Furtber To Amend The Crown Lands, Mines and Quarries Act." 3579

April 18, 1974 Tape no. 1167 Page 6 SON. J .C.CROSBIE (Mini_ster of Finance): Mr. Spe~r, I give notice that on tomorrow I will ask l~ve to intToduce a •bill, ''An Act· To Amend The Finattdal Administration Act." I also give notice that on tomorrow I will ask leave to introduce a l>ill; "An Act Further To Amend The Newfoundland )iu11-icipal Financing Corporation Act." 3580

April 18, 1974 Tape 1168 (Afternoon) PK - 1 I will on tomorrow ask leave to move the House into A Collllilittee of The Whole To Consider Certain Resolutions Relating To The Guarantee Of The Repayment Of Bonds Or Debentures Issued By And The Guarantee Of The Repayment Of Loans Made To Certain Local Authorities. MR. SPEAKER: Answers to questions of which noti~e has been given: Oral Questions: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. S. A. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult to ask the ministers questions because fifty per cent of the ministers are absent from the House - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

NEARY: I wonder if the House Leader could indicate, Sir, if any more ministers are going to be here? Will the Premier be here this afternoon? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, we have to know because how can we put questions to the ministers if they are not coming? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudihle. MR. NEARY: The honourable member will answer them. MR. ROBERTS: The schoolboy debate MR. SPEAKER: Order, pleas.e! MR. BARRY: The unstabled Leader. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! answers, "No." MR.

NEARY: Sir, I gave notice to the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations before lunch that I would be asking him a question about an illegal strike at Come By Chance involving the employees of Guildford's Limited, I think involving some 140 employees of that company. The rdinister promised to get the information by the time the House opened at 3:00 o'.clock. Would the minister inform the House now, if he has the information that 1 · asked for; 3581

April 18, 1974 Tape 1168 (Afternoon) PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. HON. J. G. ROUSSEAU (11 INISTER OF MANPOWER AND INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS): The matter is being checked into and I have just talked to my depart­ ment and I will be able to give him a comprehensive reply to it in tomorrow's question period. I did not undertake to have it today, I only tried to but it is being looked into to as I suggested to the honourable member. I will have a full and comprehensive reply to1110rrow. I am,in case he wants to know, aware of the problem. MR.

NEARY: Could the minister indicate to the House if any conciliation procedure is going ahead to try and conciliate this dispute at the present time or is it just going to be a report? MR. ROUSSEAU: Mot at the present time. We have been in contact with the company, we have been in contact with the business manager for the union involved and as I say I will have a full and comprehensive reply for the member tomorrow. MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I hardly recognize the minister witho1,Jt bis beard, Sir. I wonder, Mr.

Speaker, if the minister would care to give us an updated report on the grim labour situation in the province at the present time involving strikes at Labrador City, Buchans, Baie Verte and the one at Come By Chance. Would the minister care to give us an updated report of just what is going on? MR. ROUSSEAU: The situation . at Labrador City - a meeting will take place tomorrow morning. hopefully .between the company and the union in an effort to resolve the dispute ther~.

The situation at Baie Verte we have not been involved in, As I have- su~gested to the House before and as we said publicly the only involvement we have in this situation is if one or the other side or both ask us for assistance,and we have not been requested to do so at Baie Verte. We have been attempting to contact the company or the union this morning at Buchana to find out the cause of the problem out there, as we do as a matter of policy in any kind of . a strike that does occur. But up to 1:00 o'clock when the offices closed we had not been successful in contacting either the union or the company.

We had an unofficial discussion with one of the union executive at Buchans but he was not able to fill us in on the 3582

April 18, 1974 Tape 1168 (Afternoon) PK - 3 problem enough for me to report wh~t was said there. So we are attemptin~ to get a report out of Buchans. The Come By Chance the ones be is talking about is the Guildford one, that one, of course, as I say I am aware of. I will have a full and comprehensive reply for the minister tomorrow, MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, with all the negotiations of strikes that are going on around the province, could the minister inform the House if he has sufficient conciliation officers to cope with this hectic ~ituation or are they scattered all over the province now? Just what is going on?

Has the minister beefed up his department to take care of this situation? Or does the minister need additional sta(~ to do it? MR. ROUSSEAU: At the present moment we have sufficient staff and I am sure if the request came for more staff that the sympathetic Minister of Finance would give us sympathetic consideration and add to the department, if necessary. MR. NEARY:. Mr. Speaker, I wonder is it the Minister of Provincial Affairs who is responsible for the Arts and Culture Centre in Gander? Which minister is resp~nsible for this? AN HON~ MEMBER: The Minister of Tourism. • MR. NEARY: The Minister of Tourism, Sir.

I would like to ask the Minister of Tourism, Mr. Speaker, if he has received representation fr0111 any organization in Gander concerning the arbitrary decision by the government to name the Arts and Culture Centre after a member of this Rouse? After a politican, Sir! Could the minister ,. tell us if he has any requests from the Town Council or any other organization? HON. T. M. DOYLE (MiNISTER OF TOURISM): I think, Mr. Speaker, that question could be better directed to the Hon. Minister of Finance. I cannot answer it. MR.

NEARY: Well would the Minister of Finance indicate to the House, Sir, if there has been any objection to this from residents of Gander? R9N. J.C. CROSBIE: (MINISTER OF FINANCE): I have heard nothing, Mr. Speaker, but accolades for my suggestion,but the g~vernment have not named the Arts and Culture Centre in Gander after the honourable 3583

April 18, 1974 Tape 1168 (Afternoon) PK- ff Member for Gander. It was simply my own designation of it, I t~ought it should be, you know, I think it would be a good idea to call it the Common Centre For The Perfonning Arts. But that has no official sanction and it might well be called the Gander Arts and Culture Centre or any other number of names,but the Gander District their action has been esthetic so far. MR. NF.ARY: Mr. Speaker, as usual the Minister of Finance got a part of his anatomy caught in the wringer again.

Would the minister indicate if there will be prior consultation with the residents of Gander before this centre is named? KR. CROSBIE: Most definitely. HR.. NEARY: Well good, glad to hear it. Mr. Speaker, let me see now, I have a few more questions - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: We11·, Mr.

Speaker, I wonder in view of the emergency si_tuation in the province at the moment due to. the postal strike and the air strike or the strikes that are grounding the aircraft, would the Acting Premier indicate to the House, if it is possible for the province to lend a hand to the federal government in distributing the - family allowance cheques and the unemployment insurance cheques possibly through the army of social 'workers that we have scattered around this province? Otherwise, the people will not get their family allowance cheques on time.

Would the minister tell the House if they thought about this, if they have made any approach to Ottawa to try and assist in this emergency? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Justice. HON, T. A. HICI<HAN,(ACTING PREMIER): .Number (1), Mr. Speaker, there has been absolutely no request from the Government of Canada for aid .. from the Government of Newfoundland,which will be a new twist; I am sure that we will do our beat to accommodate them if they deemed it appropriate.

From what I read in the oresa, apparently the big number one problem is to get the family allowance cheques into the Province of Newfoundland. 3584

April 18, 1974 Tape 1168 (Afte~oon) PK - 5 . MR. NEARY: They are here already I believe. MR. HICK?-tAN: Secondly, I know within this building today we are experiencin~ difficulties in getting provincial mail out. So I seriously doubt if we could aR a province provide any meaningful assistance to our confreres in Ottawa with respect to the labour problems that apparently are facing them. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, my understanding is that the family allowance cheques are already here. I know the unemployment insurance cheques are here and are going to be returned to the Unemployment Office.

What I would ~ike to ask the minister, Mr. Speaker; if it is possible to use the army ~f social workers scattered all over Newfoundland to have the cheques delivered in packages and then distributed to the people in the area? Because if this be a prolonged strike, there is going to be an awful lot of hardship in this province if they do not get their cheques. Would the minister consider that? MR. HICKMAN: I obviously, Mr. Speaker, cannot answer that question.

I do not know what the attitude of the Government of Canada would be for anyone handling the Royal Mails other than those who have had the absolute· .jurisdiction and responsibility for doing it. • MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, . we could turn the Minister of Finance into a road· runner. Sir, the Minister of Mines and Energy indicated that he would answer questions in behalf of other ministers who are absent. I wonder if the minister could give us some information on the Harbour Arterial Road. Has it been delayed? Is it going ahead? What is the situation now concerning the Harbour Arterial Road? MR.

BARRY: What is the Harbour Arterial Road, Mr. Speaker? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I will direct the question to . the Hon. Minister of Finance, the Minister of Finance knows all about it. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Would the minister indicate to the House if he knows ~f the Arterial Road is going to be delayed? Is it going ahead? Has it been put on the shelf indefinitely? What is the situation concerning the Harbour Arterial Road? There · is only one? The minister knows where 3585

April 18, 1974 Tape 1168 (Aftemo .on) .PK - 6 it is. MR. CROSBIE: Inaudible, MR. NEARY: All the land speculators in ·this province· know.,, where the Barbour Arterial Road· is. Would the 1"!1nister indicate whether he has an answer or not to that? Hit. CROSBIE: Inaudible. MR. RF.ARY: Do not be so foolish boy. Stand up and give - HR. CROSBIE: Inaudible. MR. NF.ARY: Mr. Speaker, would the minister - MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! HR. REARY: Stand up as a matter of courtesy to the House, stand up and give us the answer? MR.. SPF.ADR: Oder Pleue: AB HOR. MEMBER: Be seated!

ORDERS OF THE DAY On 11110tion1 that the !louse resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMilTEE OF SUFPLY MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! 3586 •

April 18, 1974. MR, CROSBIE: Tape 1169 RH - 1 Consolidated _Fun~s -~ervices, page 12. There is only one item to be voted and that is item ~02-0lcalled general expenses under debt manage­ ment expenses. There may be some questions on some other part of it that could be answered now but the general expenses are debt manage­ ment expenses. These are payments, legal expenses, printing of bonds, printing of prospectus, agent~ fees, rep,istration fees, rating service fees and those kinds of charges. The estimate for this year is $250,000. MR.

ROBERTS: The only item the minister has indicated, 102-01 $250,000 up from $200,000 revised last year. I wonder if the minister could indicate to us, please, what the money was spent on last year, specifically _who got the legal expenses? Did any of it go to that well known bond lawyer, Mr. Richard Greene, Q,C1 Is he a Q.C. yet? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: No. MR. ROBERTS: He will be shortly.if he is not already. I am sorry? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: He will come well recommended, Mr. Chairman.

He may not come recommended by the board that the Minister of Justice has set up but I would assume tha~ the Minister of Justice will be shown the · same. courtesy here as he is on other matters and we will hear about it when it is announced, I wonder if the minister could indicate to us, Mr. Chairman, what the money was spent on last year. How much went to the agents? How much went to the legal fees and so forth? Furthermore ," whether the minister could indtcate how much the fiscal agents for the Pro­ vince received? Now, it does not show in these estimates.

I am notaure it-ever did, I do not think it is a change. I do not think the minister is guilty of having chan~ed it and I will not accuse him of that but the Province iKsued a bond issues~let us say for $10 million,and that is sold to the underwriters and up until now, at least, our bonds have been underwritten. I am not so sure they will be next time out after the experience of the most recent power commission issue, large parts of which I understand are still in the hands 3587

April 18, 1974. Tape 1169 RH - 2· of the mel'lbers of the syndicate,but the underwriters do not pay $10 mi.Ilion for it. We agree as a Province to pay $10 million and to pay the interest of the stated rate thereon. The underwriters may only give us $9,995,000 or they might give us $9,900,000, whatever the rate is for which the issue is issued. That is fine. The difference between that and the amountJcir which they succeed in selling the bond issue to the public is their profit or their loss and they sometimes, of course, sustain loses.

Row out of that they also pay their fees and expenses and that includes payments to lawyers who are at the least suggested by the government of the day. I wonder if the minister could indicate to us what money has gone in this head in the last year or so for this item. Indeed, perhaps he could indicate to us the prices at which our bond issues have been sold? We do have quite exhaustive lists of bond issues and that is very interesting and very good but we do not have, as far as I can see anywhere in this omnibus book, a listing of the issued prices. I think the minister probably announced all of them.

I do not think there was anything secret about them. If he has • not.announced them they could be obtained elsewhere. I wonder if ~he mintster could indicate to us how much roughly has gone to the syndicate headed by the Bums Brothers people. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I will do my usual humble best. I thought the honourable gentleman might be interested in these legal lawyers. There seems to be an unholy interest in lawyers on the other side of the Bouse. Last year the 1110ney under that vote was spent in this way: Legal expenses: $33,000. AN HONOURABLE 'MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

CROSBIE: I knew their curiosity would kill the cat. Here it is. MudJ!:e, Rose, G~thr-~e and Alexnder who are American lawyers in New York, $6,265.00 and then Mudge, Rose, Guthrie and Alexander for their services on a U.S. bond issue of $40 million of a few months &Ro, $20,531. 3588

April 18, 1974. Tape 1169 RH - 3 Pervatt, Swain and Moore are also a big law firm in New York who acted for the underwriters in connection with a Blue Sky Certificate. This • was because it was a public issue, $2,204.00. hJ.y other item is fees of Canadian cou~sel of A.E. Ames and Com­ pany in connection with a Deutschemark issue of 100 million Deutschemarks last early April, I believe it was, $3.800.00. I do not know who this Canadian counsel was. I asked and I did not have the information down­ stairs. We just reimbursed them.

So there is nothing there for the gentleman that the honourable Leader of the Opposition mentioned. Now he does act for Burns Brothers. Mr. Greene acts for Burns Brothers and Denton Limited as their counsel for the syndicate when there is a bond issue and they pay him out of whatever commission and so on they make, I suppose. As far as what moneys are being paid to the fiscal agents are conceTned,I could not tell .him and we would not have that information. If it is a bond issue sold in Canada,the syndicate which is headed by Burns Brothers and Denton Limited receive a c0111n:lssion of 1.25 per cent.

That commission is divided up between the members of the syndicate. There is at least five, six firms on the management committee ·and there is another, I do not know, fourteen or sixteen other firms in the syndicate. So that commission is divided up among them all. I would assume that Burn is the leader of the syndicate, gets the ~ig~er portion of it but how they divide it is their own business­ but the c0111111ission itself is 1.25 per cent. In the U.S., bond issues in the U;S., the COIDl!lission varies between one per cent and 1.5 per cent.

I believe on this $40 million issue we have in the United States the COllllllission, I believe, is one."and one-eight per cent. The syndicate there is led by Men-ill Lynch Pearce Fenner and Beehan. Once a~ain Burns are members of it and Greenshields and there area number of American firms in the syndicate •. How they divided it up, I do not know. That is their business. 3589

April 18, 1974. Tape 1169 RH - 4 European borrowing: The commissions in Europe are a lot higher. They usually average around 2.5 per cent. Burns are not the head of any syndicate in the European borrowing. A.E. Ames and Company still are. We'have not had any European borrowing since last April I think it was. So that is the only information I can give the honourable Leader of the Opposition at that point. MR. ROBERTS: Would the minister give us the issued prices of the v11rious issues? MR. CROSBIE: No, I have not got that here.

I mean I could get it and itila:s_already being stated publicly whatever it was sold at. Some­ times they are sold at a discount. I could get it but I have not got it here right now. ___ ! __ sh.al~ g_~~--i~ _g ___ h_e ,should r~ally want it. MR. ROBERTS: I would like to see it all in one place. MR. CROSBIE: Now, the rest of that vote last year: Printing of bonds an~ miscellaneous expenses were $81,815.00:_~aying agents fees: These are fees paid to banks and so on who act as payi'tlg agents for the bonds, $40,882.00. U.S. regis~ration fee, $8,040.00, that is regisb:ation for this public bond issue with the S.E.C.

Rating service fee, that is 'Moody's pr Standard and Poore $5,004,00. Miscellaneous is $41.34. Sundry charges at banks $2,280.00 and various fees in cormection with trustee fees, maintaining bond registers, administering sinking fmtds, registering and cancelling of bonds, $39,830.00. So that is what it was last year and it should be about the same or perhaps a bit more this year. KR. REARY: Mr. Chairman, under what sub-bead then can we get the list of legal fees that were paid out to local firms, local law firms that looked after the government's interests in ·these matters? It is under this sub-head, I persume.

It is the only place that I can see that we can get it. Would the minister undertake to provide us with a list of all the lav firms in Newfoundland who have handled these transactions? I understand that a former Leader of the Opposition, Mr. iamea 3590

April 18, 1974. Tape 1169 RH - 5 Greene,of O'Dea, Greene and Neary, I think, handled some of these bond ,issues for the government on behalf of the government, also acting in various other capacities on behalf of the government. Can we get a list, Mr. Chairman? The minister should undertake to give us a list, a list of all the law firms in Newfoundland that handled the le~al transactions for the government in connection with bond issues. Give it to me now, all right, let us have it. That is what the Leader of the Opposition just asked. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, I just answered a identical question, five minutes ago, two minutes ago,and I have said there was no pay­ ment by the Newfoundland Government to any law firm in Newfoundland for acting,for acting for the government on bond issues. The New­ foundland Government on bond issues uses as its lawyer the Department of J~stice who do not charge us anything. They are already paid, they are civil servants. The only other ones that are paid by us are Mudge, Rose, Guthrie. They acted for us in the U.S.

Any law firm in Newfoundland that acts on any one of these bond issues is acting for the syndicate or the bond purchasers to advise them ~f_ ~v~ijth:l.~g~~~s in 'cider -~~~~rdi~ to .. 3591

Apdl 10, 1974 Tape 1170 IB-1 · a Newfoundland law and they are paid by the bond purchasers and not by the Newfoundland government, So, the oniy figures I can· give the honourable gentlemen, I have already given them. So there was nothing spent out of that vote paid to any law firm in Newfoundland last year from this vote. Now, if the honourable gentleman want to know what law firms in Newfo~dland received any payment at all from the government or any of its agencies in the last twelve months, if he were to table a questio~ .· like that we could get that for him.

The honourable gentleman mentioned Jim Greene, former Leader of the Opposition, a first class, top-notch lawyer. He has acted for the government, acted for the government in connection with the Canadian Javelin ~hares case, a first-class job. We got a good judgement. AN HONOURABLE "'1:f-'BER: Acting for the Premier. MR. CROSBIE: He acts for the Labrador Liner Board Limited. He is solicitor for the Labrador Liner Board Limited. MR. NEARY: Solicitor for the Premier ·. ~. CROSBIE: He does good work. So, that is one answer there I can give him.

Other than that I do not know of anything else he has done . • So, when we need lawyers we use lawyers and we use the best lawyers and i(' the best lawyers hap~en to be also associates or supporters or . former supporters of the Progressive r..onservative Party,we do not hold that against them. If they are supporters or former supporters of the Liberal Party, we do not hold that against them. If they are supporters or former scpporters of the New Labrador Party, we do not hold that against them. If they support the New Democratic Party, we do not hold that against them.

We just use them because they are good lawyers. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, there is no trouble to know when you have got the Minister of Finance in the corner. He dances a jig then in the House just as we saw him do, Sir, a few moments ago. The Minister of Finance knows full well, Mr. Chairman, the information I am askin~ for. Whether the firm of O'Dea, Neary and Greene or Creene and Neary get it 3592

April 18, 1974 Tape 1170 IB-2 directly or indirectly from the government it comes out of the pockets of the taxpayers of this province. It does, Mr. Chairman. It is the taxpayers who have to foot the bill. The minister should undertake to get us the information that I ask for. Whether these firms are involved directly or indirectly they are getting their fees, Sir, via the public treasury. The people of Newfoundland have a right to know what law firms are getting a rip- off in this province as a result of the government goin~ to the bond market.

I do not care whether they get their fees from Burns Brothers and Denton or not, they happen to be the fiscal agents of the government. Mr. O'Dea,the author of the famous Liquor Leases Report, is acting for the power connnission. The minister gets up and dances a jig and says he does not care if they are New Democratic Party, Liberal or Progressive Conservative. Why were they all changed? Why were the government's fiscal agents changed? Ames Brothers were doing a good job and the minister came out one week and said that they had no intention of changing the government's fiscal agents.

The next week we hear the Premier on radio and television telling us they are going to change them to Bums Brothers and Denton, a buddy of his, a school chum. Then the minister gets up and tries to shrug it off. So, we want to know what kind of rip-offs the lawyers who are· friendly to the government, supporters of the ~overnment - I do not know but they contribute to their campaigns. What kind of rip-offs are they getting? I do not care whether it is coming directly or indirectly. The people of this province ~ave a right to this information.

The minister should undertake to get the information i~ he should not know it, call up his bu~dies, Burns Brothers and Denton and say, "Give me a list", or call up the brokers that the minister is doing business with."Who is looking after your interests in Newfoundland? How much are they getting out of this? What rip-off are they getting?'' The• people have a right to know this. The minister need not try to brush it off by trying to be smart alecky and funny. This is information 3593

April 18, 1974 Tape 1170 that the public have a right to. Why does the minister not give it to them? IB-3 MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, the public has no right to what information private firms use in their own private business. I have already stated that if we have paid anything to a firm of lawyers we are quite willing t_o provide the infonnation, anything that we pay. What Bums Brothei-s and Denton or any other firm in this world pay to lawyers or solicitors who act for them is their business. Who they have or who they h~ve act for them is their business, not our business.

To get up in this Bouse and talk about rip-offs and the rest of it and use that insulting language degrades this House and degrades the life of this province,that everything mentioned in this House baa to be sullied with the honourable gentleman's vulgar and mal:1,cious tongue. There are no rip-offs. Any fim of lawyers that acts or t!oes any work in a bond issue, he is ripping nobody off. He charges a fee for the services . he provides. Now, the only fees that have been paid by the govemment are the fees that I have mentioned. It might have been that two or three years ago other firms may have been used.

There ·are different fiscal agents or diffexent fit'UI.S were used. Curtis, Dawe and Fagan used to do quite a , bit · o~ this work. In fact they did some while we were here. The first few 1110ttths while we· were here they acted on a bond i.ssue for the. P~~~f~Ut~~ity ·· ·· Commission. So, that is the only answer I can give the honourable member. If he want to put dovn some specific question, I . shaif)_e~.-~ -~ad_ ~I?. get"_ i:he .. _ -­ answers for him. HR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the minister - I realize it is probably a little beyond this head but since he has raised it - if h• could indicate or get for ~he committee - I realize he probably will . not have the information there - the amount which the government have paid or expect to pay to Mr. James Greene, Q.C. for acting on behalf of Labrador Liner Board. Is he on a retainer or is he paid sort of on a 3594 -.:-

April lR, 1974 Tape 1170 IB-4 piecework basis? I realize he has probably been retained either hy the manager of Labrador Liner Board, Mr. Ingram, or by the board,but to say that is to dodge the issue because of course it is a Crowr Corporation and the boardare the government and Mr. In~ram is an employee of the Crown Corporation and thus answers to the government for what he does or does not do. We the people are paying for it. Also what has been paid to ~r. James Greene for acting in connection with the action taken by the government to force Canadian Javelin to register the change of shares?

I think that is over,is it not? l'.he court has rendered judgement and there has been no appeal. So, maybe Mr. Greene has not sent in his bill as yet,but what do the government expect the libel for? The other point I would make in respect to "Rip-offs·" is simply this: That the minister is trying to blindfold the devil in the dark. What he says is technically quite correct but we all know - and what we are trying to find out are the amounts involved - we all know that the counsel for these issues,retained by Burns Brothers and Denton, is not Mr • . James Greene who has had some experience at least. It is Mr.

Richard Greene who is not only relatively junior at the bar but _I venture to suggest has never done a bond larger than $27.04 until suddenly Burns Brothers and Denton scratching furiously for a counsel,Lo! and Behold! Should happen tQ fasten upon Mr. Richard Greene, an estimable gentleman, a man who had served in this House for four years until the voters of Bell Island retired him therefrom and who has since served the present Premier and the presen~ government party in another very real and very vital and unfortunately very necessary way. Lo! and Behold! This Mr.

Richard Greene who has never in his life I venture to submit given an opinion on anything bigger than the title to a house in Downtown St. John's, is retained by ~urns Brothers and Denton, for what? To advise them not on what the government are doing is right or wrong because the government, as the minister said, have their own lawyers. I assume the Minister of Justice gives the final opinion. Re is advised therein by ~r. McCarthy, the Deputy ~inister of Justice,and 3595

April 18, 1974 Tape 1170 IB-5 by the other officials. He is retained to advise Bums Brothers and Denton that in fact the government do have power to issue these bonds and then everything is hunky-dory. A nice little piece ~f change and probably worth $10,000, $20,000, $30,000 or $40,000 in fees to Mr. Greene or to whatever lawyer does it. Of course it is an area of patronage. It has gone on in the past. The lenders have the right to name their counsel and they do name their counsel.

The syndicate have the right to name their counsel and they do name their counsel and they pay them but we pay them because one and one quarter per cent fee includes some expenses. It does not include them all. It may include the expenses of their counsel or it may not. If it do not, we pay it directly. If it do, , then we pay it indirectly. If ~r. Richard Greene - I did not bring his name into it in this context until the minister told us that Burns Brothers and Denton had retained Mr. Greene - if they have retained him, then whatever the fee is that is being paid to him, we are paying it.

Now, that is a fact and-all we want to know is how much. If the minister cannot tell-us how 111Uch, then he cannot,but let that be recorded. Let it be recorded also that Mr. Greene, an estimable gentleman and a member of the bar in best of standing,never in my knowledge acted 1n his life on a bond issue until Lo! and Behold! the. Tory Government -~ained BUT'IIS Brothers and Denton in somewhat unusual circumstances as their fiscal agents. They have retained them.

They are doing the work and Bruns Brothers and Denton.being new to Newfoundland,casting about for an agent, for a lawyer, a legal adviser happened upon Mr. I Richard Greene. They did not happen upon any of the lawyers in St. John's who have acted on bond matters and I am not talking of any firms with political connections but firms like Stirling and Ryan which make quite a fetish out of havin~ no political involvement. To my knowledge no member of that firm has any political involvement. There are a number of other firms that have steered clear of politics. 3596

April 18, 1974 Tape no. 1171 Page 1 - HW of politics. Lo! and Behold! They fastened upon Mr. Richard Greene. Well obviously it is patronage. Mr. Greene's name was suggested directly or indirectly by the Premier or by the Minister of Finance or by some spokesman, somebody speaking in behalf of the government, done just as it has been done in the past. It should be ended. All we are asking the minister-is to indicate how much of our money, directly or indirectly, has gone to Mr. Richard Greene for the services which he has performed. That is all we want to know.

If the minister cannot tell us, then he cannot tell us but it should be recorded. MR. NEARY: , Mr. Chairman , I wonder if I could have another word, Sir, because . one of the biggest favours that I ever did a gentleman in this world was to defeat Brother Greene over on Bell Island. · While he was Member for Bell Island, he was doing a course in law and eventually became a solicitor, Sir. I did him a favour by defeating him because he really hit the jackpot, Sir. after he was defeated on Bell Island. Mr.

Chairman, when t hit a sensitive nerve with the Hini ter of °Finance, Sir, he retaliates by trying to leave the impression that I have asked something dirty, that there is something improper about ay questioning the m:1.ni_ster on this particular matter of legal fees• Sir • . Mr. Chairman-. you remember a couple of weeks ago. when the Minister of Finance had said that if t had come into the Bouse and asked questions of the minister, I would have gotten the answers.

Now I am putting the questions to him, Sir, because froa the rumours and hearsay and the reports that I have beeq getting, I have very grave doubt~, Sir, if there is not confli~t of interest in some of these bond issues. I ~ have been told, Hr. Chairman, that at least one of these bond issues in the early days of the 'Iory Administration was handled-by a firm heaad by a Minister of the· Crown, Sir. I would like for the 111:inister to confirm or to deny t _bat, Kr. Chairman. I would like to know the answer. That is why I am putting the questions to the minister.

There is nothing sinia ter ~_or dirty nor· filthy about it. The minister tries to leave that impression. If you cross-examine him, tread on his toes, ••k him questions, he flies off the deep end, Sir. Talk about 3597

April 18, 1974 Tape no. 1171 thin-skinned, the minister pretends he is thin-skinned. The minister :~ows when I have !egitimate questions. The L~adet.of the Opposition ia a~solutely right, Sir, w:hen he says that technically speaking \ the minister may be correct when h~ says that he does not have the infoniatioo. The minister can get us the information, Mr. Chairman. It is a:>re than just a coincidence that some of those law firm dawntown are picked out by Burns Brothers and Denton, picked right out of a clear,blue sky.

They do not know their way around Newfoundland, they know nobody in Newfoundland; . a~l of a sudden they are using law fims that are supporters of the Tory Adminitration. Is that just a coincidence? Mr. Chairman, is it? Is the minister j"uat trying to pretend that ve are all naive in this honourable House? While the minister is on his feet, Sir• I noticed recently that. for the first time, I believe . the Bank of Nova Scotia is no,, hc:ived~~- ~ ~ ­ around and DOV willing to lend the government a few shecklea. We fomid that out in connection with the Brinco deal.

Would the minister indicate if coming events cast their shadows before them? Ar• they going to discard the Bank of Montreal the same as they did with every other organization and firm tllat bad anything to do with the fermer Liberal Administration? Are they going to discard the Bank of Montreal and nov start doing busi~ess with the Bank of Nova Scotia? Ia this going to be a new policy? Kr. Speaker, I am genuinely 11:1cere in trying to get the answer to these questions.

I hope that when the llinister stands up this time that he will not try to be smart, that he will uot dance a jig, that he will come clean and level with us, Sir, let us have the information • . If h' sho.uld ·not have it there · on: his ·deak·;~_­ he can send for his officials. The minister can get the information. The minister knows that he can get that information. It is the tapayara, Kr. Cheirman, who are paying the bills. They may not pay it directly from the Public Treasury but indirectly. it comes out of the bond iasuea; it comes out of the fees that are charged. • Mr.

Chairman, when the Minister of Finance wu over on this side of the Bou.se, he wanted all the little detail• and all the tedioua 3598

April 18, 1974 Tape no. 1171 Page 3 information that he could get. Well, we want it. The people of Newfoundland want it. We want to find out if there is any conflict of interest. I do not care if it be twenty-four and one-half hours. Sir, we want to get this information. Let us see the minister get up and be serious for a change and not go off yakki'llg about Oh! the Member for Bell Island is trying to hit me below the belt. If I wanted to hit below the belt, Sir. I could find a vunerable spot to hit the minister in. I am only trying to ~et information. Mr. Chairman. MR.

CROSBIE: It gets tiresome answering this kind of thing. The honourable gentleman is up to his usual tactics trying to pretend that there is something wrong, that there is something suspicious and all of this when, of course, there is not. '!hat t~ctic, Mr. Chairman, is going to ·boomerang. The honourable gentleman and his colleagues are not going to have a hope nor a prayer in the next election. The people of Newfoundland are on to these kind of insidious,and vicious tactics.

Now to get back to the questions again: The people of Newfoundland are not paying one cent to the - lawyers or solicitors that Bums Brothers or anyone else are hiring. They pay them themselves, out of the commission that they get. They are entitled to the collllllission whether they have a la':'}'er or not. It does not matter one cent to the commission, Mr. Chairman. They will get their one and one-q.uarter per cent commission ~or selling the bond issue, for buyiag it, whether or not they ever have a lawyer. Whether they want a lawyer to check matters out for them or not, they decide thems'eh•es.

They pay it themselves. The only money we have paid out in legal fees, under debt management expenses, is the $33,000 that I have enumerated. I do not know what Bums Brothers pay their solicitors. I do not know what Ames pay their solicitors. ·1 do not know what Merrill Lynch pay their solicitors. I do know the ones we paid ourselves and what they are. I am not going to ask Bums Brothers what they pay their solicitors. It is none of our business. They do not charge it to us. It come!:l out of their commission 3599

April 18, 1974 Tape oo. 1171 Page 4 which they are going to get anyway, whether they have a lawyer _ acting for them or not. Now the Leader of the Opposition asked about Mr. Jim Greene, the linerboard mill and the share case. There has been no bill received from Mr. Jim Greene yet on that Canadian Javelin ·case. Questions should be tabled in the ordinary way. Any information wanted on these matters, if it b_e tabled in the ordinary way, we can get the information. What he is being paid by Labrador Linerboard, I do not know. Be has done a lot of work for them.

He may have submitted bills, he may not have submitted bills. He is doing a first-class job. I hope that he is getting properly recompensed for it. If the question were tabled I could find out the answer to that. As far as the Bank of Montreal is concemed or the Banlt of Bova Scotia, the Bank of Nova Scotia was approached by the governaent in connection with the Churchill Falls matter because we needed a bank other than the Bank of Montreal who are also the bankers for Brinco. We were hardly going to risk going to the bankers for , Bruico and discussing financing the acquisition of Brinco with them.

Ve vent to the Bank of Nova Scotia who were pleased, ready, willing and able to provide t~e necessary financing. It does not mean that the Bank of Montreal will no longer be the govemment's bankers. They still are. The position has not changed at all. In addition to the Bank of Montreal, the government or government agencies use various banks. I do believe tla PQWer Commission use the Bank of Nova Scotia, if I be _ not wrong, and bas for years. Other government agencies use the lloyal Bank, and different banks are used. The pruicipal banker of the government is the Banlt of Montreal. 'rhere is ao change in that.

There is no change contemplated in that, certainly not at this time. That is not to say that in six 1D0Dths, one year, two • years or five that the bank might change. AN BON. MEMBEI.: (Inaudible). MR. CROSBIE: The Premier is not going to change any banks and would not attempt to change any banks without consulting the Minister of Finance nor did he change the fiscal agency. 3600

April 18, -1974 MR. NiAR.Y: Oh, yes he did. MR. CROSBIE: No, he did not. Tape no 1171 Page 5 The honourable gentleman is wrong in his

interpretation there. That is all I can say, Mr. Chairman, on this question. That is all the information I have. MR.. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. I cannot let that pass 1 Sir. The minister, in his usual snide way again indicated that there was something dirty about what I was attempting to do, Sir. have a hope nor a prayer - He said that we would not MR. CROS-BIE: Not a chance. MR. NEARY: "Not a chance," the minister said, "of ever winning the support of the people of this province." Well I .ask the minister now to put it to the test. Let us find out who the real boss is over there.

If the minister think and feel it., now is the time to put it to the test. MR. CROSBIE: The honourable gentleman does not know where the Premier is this afternoon. MR. NEARY: Ah! Mr. Chairman, I can tell you one place he is not, Sir, he is not negotiating with Brinco, I found that out. Be is probably down south on a vacation. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the minister obviously is not going to give the House the information that it wants. The minister has decided to conceal this information,to hide it, Sir, Well it vi.ll all come out in the wash, Mr. Chairman.

It vi.ll all come out in the wash. One cannot hide these things. We saw it happen down in ~ the United Stat.es with Watergate, Sir. They tried to cover up and look what happened. The whole system in the United St.ates, the whole democratic process is being threatened because they tried to cover up, Sir. Well the minister can cover up if he want to but we will get the information some day, maybe this fall, next fall or the fall after. 3601

April 18, 1974 Tape no . 1171 Page 6 Sir, when we have the privilege of sitting ou that honourable side of the llQUSe, we will get the information and I hope the miuister is in the Bouse sot can dangle it in front of his eyes. The minister bows he can get that illformation, Sir. It is a source of embarrassmeot to hia. Ve will get it eventually• Mr. Chairmm,i. We may not get it during this session, Sir, but ve will get it. I will not forget, if the minister is still aroUGd this House, which I doubt very 1mch, Sir, to send him over copies of all these documents. Mr. Cbai:rman, as far as I can •ee thi,s is a reasonable request, 3602

April 18, 1974 Tape No. 1172 NM - 1 nothing dirty or filthy about it, Sir. It is the kind of information that this House should have. That is why, Mr. Chairman, that we are standing here debating the Estimates in detail, Sir, unless the minister want to refuse to give us the information. Well, thE:Y will have to pay the price, Sir, that is all I can say. On motion 102-01, carried. MR. CROSBIE: Head 202, Mr. Chairman, there is a correction to be made on the previous page.

Where the page starts off, Legislative, this does not have to be voted or anything but· the amount of $1,618,100 should be reduced by $29,000 and down below - Amount Approved by Statute - $29,000 should go in there because the Auditor General's salary is statutory. So_above it would be $1,589,100 and down in the Amount Approved by Statute it would be $29,000. The change should be made because the Supply Bill will have to differ by that amount. -MR. ROBERTS: The Auditor General's salary is $25,000. MR. CROSBIE: No. MR. ROBERTS: Has it been changed? MR. CROSBIE: Yes, it was changed last year. MR.

ROBERTS: Well why does it say.in the salary of any - MR. CROSBIE: I do not know I presume that - MR. ROBERTS: Subject to the Legislature. MR. CROSBIE: That just means that it is subject,~. I sm juet 'Pointing that his salary is subj _ect to the Legislature. As far as I know the salary of both - MR • ROBERTS : The Auditor General and Controller General are paid · statutory. We do not vote their salaries. MR. CROSBIE: Exactly. That is why I am making :the corrections. MR. ROBERTS: Then why does it say on page 114 that it is subject to the Legislature. MR. CROSBIE: That means that it is subject to the Legislature.

MR. ROBERTS: That means that it is not subject to the Legislature. MR. CROSBIE: Well it should be if it be not. 3603 out

April 18, 1974 Tape No. 1172 -NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: Well it is subject to the act which in turn is subject to us. MR. CROSBIE: Well whatever it is. MK. ROBERTS: Yes, whatever. MR. CROSBIE: Exactly. Now then the Department of the Auditor General- Well the only thing there is, are there _questions? I think it is all pretty straightforward there. ~- ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I only have one or two questions. First of all when is the Committee on Public Accoun~ Roing to be set up, provided for in the Standing Orders. The minister may ·· have some information which we do not as to when it is to be set up.

The ~ . -- . . . . . House Leader is not in the chambeL two, four, six, eight, ten, eleven, I think we should havj\! !l Q1,1Prum call. Are they coming in? Ro, that is not enough. Two, four, six, eight, ten, let us have a quorum call, Mr. Chairman • .MR. CHAIRMAN: We have a quorum HR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, The new Standing Order 4(

d) provides that three minutes shall eiapse from the ringing of the bells, I submit three minutes did not elapse. Your Honour bas not acted ~thin the rules of Standing Order 4 (d). Either we are going to have rules, 'Mr. Chairman, or we are not. They drag the sick and the dying out, Mr. Chairman. I am making a point of order. I am drawing Your Honour's attention to the fact that Standing Order 4(

d) provides that three minutes shall elapse. MR. CHAIRMAN· (MR. STAGG): The honourable the Leader of the Opposition is quite correct. Ve will now sit for two minutes. HR. CHAIRMAN: The Clerk will count the House please. Ve have a quorum. HR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I was saying, I wonder if the minister could indicate whe~ the standing committee to which · the Auditor Ceneral .;s Report is to be referred., when that is to be set up? I also wonder if he could -indicate to us what action the minister has taken to implement the various changes recommended by the Auditor 3 '"O. 0 4 .

April 18, 1974 Tape No. 1172 NM - 3 General in his report, the report which the minister tabled. I wonder also if the minister could indicate to us,please, whether the Auditor General has submitted as yet a report on the non­ direct accounts of the Government. The Auditor General is required to do this. He may have submitted it or he may not. That I do not know but it has not been tabled, it has not been made public. In years passed the two were bound together, the report on these accounts here and the report on the Crown Corporation and what have you. That has not been made public as yet,to my knowledge.

It has not been tabled in this House. I wonder finally if the minister could indicate to the committee, Sir, the present standing of the Auditor General's Office, the Auditor General has made · the normal and the ongoing complaint that I am afraid we get every year, certainly every year that I can remember, the eight I have been in the House, about the difficulty he is having in recruiting staff. There are some paragraphs, Sir, quite near the end of his report in which he points this- out0 I wonder if the minister could bring us up-to-date on that please? MR. CROSBIE: Well, Mr.

Chairman, with reference to the committee on public accounts, the honourble gentlemen know the rules were only passed I think it was last Tuesday or the day before the Budget-Speech, and that co1D111ittee will be set up in due course. I do not know exactly when, I presume in the next few days and should function once it is set up. So that will be set up shortly.

The Auditor General's Report itself, I can assure honourable ge~tlemen that it is not like former years, that the comments of the Auditor General made in his report have been followed up;where we think they are justified changes will be made, where we do not think they are justified, we are prepared to attempt to disagree with him and explain why. N.ow that will be the function of the committee on public accounts.

It would certainly be contra -productive for me to spend the afternoon here now going through the Auditor General's Report and deal with every comment he ·111ade and saying what action has been taken to follow it up. That is the function of the coDDDittee on public accounts and if they are interested they will ·3605

April 18, 1974 Tape No. 1172 NM - 4 receive full information. I can just · assure honourable . gentlemen that any comment the-Auditor General made is being followed up. On his st'-ff, the Auditor General's staff position. the staff complement for the department is fifty-seven,. Including hims .elf, his current strength is fifty; that is at April 16. 3606

April 18, 1974 Tape 1173 (Afternoon) PK - 1 There are seven positions vacant because of the difficulty in ~ettin2 staff, lack of suitably qualified candidates, normal delays in recruit­ ments and selection processes _. Ee will be hiring for the summer eight student~,from May to September. As far as his comment on the Auditor General's Report is concerned, he did not request any new staff in 1972-1973, and in 1973- 1974 the Auditor General requested eight new positions - ~.ay and June - six of these were arproved on July 6 and two others were anproved on September 21. AN RON. MF.UBER: Inaudible. MR.

CROSBIE: For the first time :.I suppose in our history, Mr. Chairman, the Auditor General asked for eight additional staff. He got eight additional staff, first he got six, then he appealed for . the ·other ~wo. He claimed he had to have them also. So we will acco'l!llllodate him and bencl over b·ackwards. We also approved the remaining two, so he has ·now fifty-seven total staff. Bis_,_requ~sts for staff .in 1973-191.4 were accepted. The rest of the money involved in this department, of course, is travelling. ~They have to do a lot of travelling doing municipal audits and v~Tious things like that.

Computer expenses - MR. ROBERTS: Crown Corpo7ations. MR. CROSBIE: Oh, yes, I thought they were tabled. Is the honourable gentleman sure they are not tabled? But anyway, I will check into it and see if they have not been tabled, I am sure they must be ready by now because I remember seeing the volume a few weeks ago. MR. ROBERTS: They have not been tabled in this session. MR. CROSBIE: If they . be not tabled, I will see that they are tabled. I will check into it but I thought that they were tabled. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the minister will tell us where the Auditor General and his staff found a nest after they were booted out of Confederation Building? They were on the third floor I think, Sir, up to about a year and a-half or so ago. They were booted out after the new administration took over. Could the minister tell us where they have gone? And if they are all under the same roof or if they are like 3607

April 18, 1974 Tape 1173 (Afternoon) all other government departments scattered ~11 over Hell's Acre? Sir, would the minister also indicate to the House if the Auditor General received an increase in pay last year? PK - 2 MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, the Auditor General and the Comptroller General are both receiving $29,000 a year~ _It is an increase they got last year, approved by an amendment to the Revenue and Audit Act.

We are proposing an amendment to the Financial Administration Act this year, I gave notice of it today, so that it will be no longer necessary to have their salaries specifically included in the Revenue and Audit Act. This is a very unwieldy process. [; delays t~em in getting pay increases that everyone else in the government have gotten. So we will be suggesting that be changed so that the Lieutenant Governor in Council will give them a salary increase with a proviso that they cannot suffer from a salary decrease unless the House . approve ·: That be COlld.~g f_orward in an amendment. _ ...... .

Now what was the first point? There .. were two questions the honourable member asked. What was the first one? MR. NEARY: Where are they situated now? MR. CROSBIE: Oh, yes. Now I have not visited the Auditor General's . . . Office but I understand they are located in the Imperial Oil Building, 1 suppa.e it is still called that, which is down on Elizabeth Avenue. It is the same building tha~ _the conflict of interest registry,,i.s in. llbat floor they are on, I do not know but I have not had any complaints from the Auditor General about his space. They were certainly not kicked out of the building.

More suitable space was found for them, more adequate space. I do remember his saying that there was an ideal amount of room to also have the conflict of interest material down there. I think we arranged for a few hundred more ~quare feet for him. So I believe he is adequately housed, clothed . and fed. He is in hi• usual rare spirits, searching vigilantly to uncover all he caQ that has not b~en done the way he thinks it should be done. He i  just•• snarly as ever.watching the public purse. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, I am surprise to hear that the minister has not visited the Auditor General because I understand that the Auditor 3608

April 18, 1974 Tape 1173 (Afternoon) PK - 3 General can send for witnesses if he should want to. I am surprised he has . not sent for the minister long ago. AN HON. MEMBER: He is satisfied. MR. NEARY: He must be satisfied. Well, Sir, not according to the Auditor General's Report he is not satisfied. It was not a very favourable report. Sir, it was not very complimentary of the minister and his administration.

I hope the minister is ri~ht that some of the matters - I hope the minister is right, Sir, that some of the matters raised in this report are being followed up, they are not just being put in one of the deep,dark closets down in the minister's office down on the third floor, swept under the rug. Some very, very important matters were raised in the Auditor General's Report this year, Sir. MR. CROSBIE: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Chairman. so are we,but we have no public accounts counnitte~, Sir. This is exactly the point raised by the Leader of the Opposition. We had one - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: Mr. Chairman, l>.'e had a public accounts committee last year and I was a member of that committee• Sir. It petered out, ?-'..r. Chairman, and you know why - AN HON. MEMBER: Because the honourable member was on it. MR. NEARY: No not because~ was on it, because the government ministers did not attend their meetings. MR. ROBERTS: A deliberate atte111pt to stifle debate. MR. NEARY: The Member for Labrador North was Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee. We had asked the Minister of Finance for permission to employ the services of a chartered accountant. I do not ever ~ remember getting the - MR.

CROSBIE: Oh, yes, they did. MR. NEARY: Did we get the permission? Well maybe we did. I do not want to accuse the minister falsely. Maybe we did but, Sir, there is no point in having a public accounts committee Ul'.lless they have legal ' counsel, chartered accountants, have the authority to send for witnesses, have civil servants come and give evidence, subpoena documents. The 3609

April 18, 1974 Tape 1173 (Afternoon) PK - 4 public accounts committee should be able to do all of this, Mr. Chai:rman, and I am looking forward to the next public accounts committee that is set up in this honourable House. I hope I am a member of it, Sir, because I will guarantee you one thing, Mr. Chair­ mm,I will do a thorou~h job. But, Sir, we did not get off the ground in the last session of the Rouse because the ininister; for instance the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing was on the public accounts committee, I think he turned up for one and a-half meetings. MR.

EARLE: The Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing attended every meeting. MR. NEARY: MR. EARLE: for sure. No, Mr. Chairman, the~reason the committee died, Sir­ He did as much work as the honourable member did,that is MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the minister has a right to get up and speak if he want to. If I be accusing him falsely, Sir, he can get up and defend himself. AR HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. HR. NEARY: And the friend of a good many honourable colleagues on the other side of the House too, help make millionaires out of some of that· honourable crowd over there. AN HON. MEMBER: Who? MR.

NEARY: That honourable gentleman help make millionaires out of some of that crowd over there. Ml. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The honourable member's use of the phrase "Honourable Crowd" had been b£ou~ht to his attention earlier in the session, that this is - MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, we have been using that term in this honourable Bouse for two years, well not for two years but thirteen years since I have been here. HR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, the Speaker ruled it in order a year· ago, if Jour Honour were to search back. MR.

NEARY: I am not going to argue with Your Honour because it is not a very important point, Sir, - HR. BARRY: The honourable mob 3610

April 18, 1974 Tape 1173 (Afternoon) PK - .5 MR. NEARY: The honourable mob,that is ruled out. The honourable gang,that would not be proper, that would be unparliamentary. MR. CHAIRMAN: He is asking the honourable member to use language that it is more befittinr. an honourable member and certainly referring - MR. NF.ARY: I will use the lanr,uar,e, Sir, that will befit honourable gentlemen on the other side of the House, I have fourteen days. That would only be mild, Sir. But, Mr.

Chairman, I forget now what I was talking about but anyway, I would like to ask the Minister of Finance, Sir, if he would tell us if and when the salary of the Auditor General was increased? Because I do not ~emember, Mr: Chairman, I do not rememb~r last,year an amendment to the Revenue and Audi·t Act going through this House to increase the AudU:or General-' s - AN HON. MEMBER.: It was. MR. NEAll: It was! MR. CROSBIE: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Because I do not know if members are aware, Mr.

Chairman, but the Auditor Genetal and the Comptroller of the Treasury are paid from the Revenue and Audit, or are given the authority to be paid by the Revenue and Audit Act and that can only be amended by this honourable House. I do not remember it, Sir; maybe one of these sleepers chat the minister put through but I certainly do not recall ever voting for an increase in pay for the Auditor General, I might have done it but I certainly did not know I did it. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Pardon? No, that is right.

My colleague here indicated to me that the Auditor General cannot be relieved of his office, he cannot~ be fired or disciplined_ unless it is by the authority of this honourable House. MR. CROSBIE: Inaudible • .MR. NEARY: We certainly do. MR~ CROSBiE: , .. Wlia_t hap!)ened in 1969? MR. NEARY: Yes, w~at happened in 1969? We had a Leadership Convention and the Member for St. John;s · West got defeated and then went over there and became Minister of Finance. That is the only thing that I remember 3611

April 18, 1974 about 1969. MR. CROSBIE: MR. NEARY: MR. CROSBIE: Tape 1173 (Afternoon) He was dragged up and questioned •• What was dragged up? The Auditor General was PK - 6 MR. NEARY: What about Shaheen being drarged in on the floor of the House and cross-examined by the minister~ MR. CROSBIE: Well that was good. That was good. That got the facts. MR. NEARY: That was good. Honoured buddies now, kissing cousins, but they were not buddies in those days. MR. CROSBIE: MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS : 911.nisteT. MR. CROSBIE: HR. NEARY: Everybody can make a mistake. Haw! Haw!

And the people of Newfoundland are saying that about the Haw~ Baw! No. Oh, no! The minister should get down on his knees, Sir, and ask for forgiveness. !S. CROSBIE: • • • programmes, a thousand and one - AN HON. m;HBER: Yes. MR. CROSBIE: ~efor~ the minister. HR. NEARY: The minister should get down on his knees, Sir, and ask forgiveness. MR. CllOSBIE: I bad a letter from White Bay North just a few days ago. MR. NEARY: 3612

April 18, 1974, Tape 1174, Page 1 apb Mr. Chairman, hypocrisy, Sir, is not one of the characteristics of a good politician. Believe me, Sir, it is not. It is about time the minister learned that. Sir, I have nothing more to say about this vote ." Perhaps the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing would get up and tell us about the contribution that he made to the Public Accounts COllll!littee last year, which was not very much. It was not very much. MR. EARLE: MR. NEARY: MR. EARLE: MR. NEARY: About one hundred per cent more than the honourable member. Pardon?

About one hundred per cent more than the honourable member. No, }!r. Chairman, I attended every meeting. Every second that these meetings were held I was there. There were a few things I wanted to delve into, Sir. I cannot wait for the administration to appoint the Public Accounts Committee this year. There are a number of outstanding investigations, Sir, (not \,itch-hunts like we have seen that crowd carry on for the last two years) there are a number of questions, certain information that I want to get. I think that committee should have pretty broad powers, Mr. Chairman.

It should be able to send for witnesses, send for public servants, send for documents. It should be able to cross-examine witnesses under oath. ~en I will get the inforcation. If I cannot get it from the ministers on the floor of this honourable House, I will get it from the committee. Anyway, Sir, I am glad to hear that the Auditor General is adequately housed and clothed, Sir, and is in good health. I look forward to getting his report again around this time next year. On motion, 202-01, carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 02-01 car_ry? ~- RJBERTS..:;. As a matter of interest, why are the expenses down?

They were $72,QOO,revised,last year, $63,000 estimated this year. It is unusual for expenses to go down. We have heard the minister·' s heart-rending pleas o_f everything going up. ·could he tell us why these are down? :MR. CROSBIE: I do not know·. It does not explain here why they are ··~ .... . ....... ' 3613

down. Expense of travelling,$63,000 is the estimate. It is almost entirely for expenses of auditors working on assignments mainly municipal audits away from St. John's, Department audits, 250 municipal entities. Then there are hospitals, courts and corporations located outside St. John's. There is no reason given why they are dovo. It may have something to do with travelling advances or MK. ROBERTS: The Auditor General must think the air-strike is going to last a long time. jli.. CROSBIE: Right. On motion,02-01, carried. On motion, 02, carried. MR. CBAIIUf~: Shall 08 carry? 'I Mil. ROBERTS: Ml:.

Chairman, there is no 03, so Your Honour probably did oot call it. I vonder if the minister,in telling us why this year ve are going to have $15,000 on Computer Services when_ last year we bad nothing, could also explain what the $8,000 Consultant Services -vere last year and why have we n~ne this year? l!I.. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman; I think the Consultant Services last year were in connection with Computer Services. The expenses thi year. for Computer Services; this is for project and basic training for implementation of computer techniques to audit engagements.

They .,, expect to be ~ble to carry out this activity during the present year by availing of services which can be provided by Newfoundland and Labrador Computer Services, They intended to commence such projects last year but for various reason, many related to staff vacancies at the senior level, could not do so. The Consultant Services last year was assistance that they had in getting ready for the computer programme which they were supposed to start last year. That 1• why it is really part of 08. On motion 08, carried. MR. CHAIR~AN (Stagg): I have to ask for direction now.

Do the honourable members wish to go back to 201-0lt MR. ROBER.TS: I wonder if that could stand? There are some matters which I want to raise but I think, since the Premier .and I had some preliminary discussions on them and the Premier is not (I do.not know if he is in Newfoundland) in the Rouse toda,, if it could atand. 3614

April 18, 1974, Tape 1174, Page 3 -- apb ~tR.gl.OSBIE: Page 19, Mr. Chairman. Subhead 304, Treasury Roard Secretariat: MR. NEARY: Mr, Chairman, I would like to have a few words on this , Sir, as soon a~ I get organized here. Treasury Board Secretariat. Sir, this is one of the items in the estimates that has certainly escalated in fOSt over the last two years, since the new administration took over. What heading was it under last year? Anyway, Mr.

Chairman, I think that the people of this province are entitled to know, Sir, just how the Treasury Board Secretariat has grown in the last couple of years and just what salary - MR. CROSBIE: Rear! Hear! MR. NEARY: Mr, Chairman. I did not say that it was justified. MR. CROSBIE: It is more than justified. MR. NEARY: I am sure that the people will be interested in knowing what some of the salaries are that are being paid to the officials of the Treasury Board Secretariat. MR. CROSBIE: -MR. NEARY: Hear! Hear! Hear! Hear! For what? MR. CROSBIE1 Hear! Hear! For whatever the honourable member sa~s. MR.

NEARY: Sir, this is the same minister who came into this House last Thursday. Easter Thursday or Easter Wednesday ( No that is Shrove Wednesday. Is that what it is called?) came into this honoura,ble House and announced tax increases. MR. CROSBIE: No! MR. NEARY: Added one per cent on to the ~etail sales tax and increased the personal income tax. Well. Sir, we will argue later on whether thatwerejustified. I do not intend to present my case now.but when I look at the salaries of some of the officials, Sir, of the Treasury Board Secretariat, no wonder the minister had to increase taxes. No wonder.

He could have wiped the whole ~reasury Board Secretariat out altogether and it would not be missed. Secretary of the Treasury Board $24,500. That is more than a cabinet minister is getting. What is a cabinet minister's salary now'? AN HON. ?'EMBER: $12 , 000. MR. NF.ARY: Plui, the House. · ~6i5

April 18, 1974, Tape 1174, Page 4 -- apb AN HON. MEMBER: It is not as much as the Leader of the Opposition's. MR. BARRY: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: Plus the House. In other words, the minister is agreeing Vi.th me. $24,500 for the secretary of the Treasury Board. Director of Treasury Board staff_ AN HON. ~ER: He earns every cent of it. MR. NEARY: He earns every cent of it. ~.aybe he does. We have not seen any evidence of it from the administration's standpoint. One director of Treasury Board staff. $19,074. One management analyst 111, $1~09. What would an analyst l,cost if this fellow co'st $15,209?

Director of budgeting: One director of budgeting $21,?13. He is not exactly on welfare, Sir. One director of organization and management $22, 000. Fantastic salaries, Sir. Maybe they deserve them, 1 do not know but I think the people have a right to know how their tax dollars - are being spent. One organization and management officer II, $15,993. Director of col~ective bargaining $22,900. The mcst expensive director of collective bargaining I suppose in the province. I would say that is a lot more than some o~ the business agents of the bigger locals in Newfoundland ire getting.

Director of collective bargaining $22,900. Not bad, Mr. Chairman. Not a bad salary. Maybe he deserves it, 1 do not know. One assistant director of collective bargaining $19,380. What does a poor old conciliation officer get down in the Minister of Manpower's office? Not enough? He does not get near that. Assista~t director of collective bargaining $19,380. One director of 1'- classification and pay $21,700. Great salary, Sir. Maybe the gentleman, the ladies and gentlemen who occupy these jobs deserve every penny of it.

Maybe they do but they are certainly not in line with what is being paid in business and industry. They are way out of line, Sir, completely out of kilter with what is being paid. ts it any wonder, Mr. Chairman, that the ordinary rank and file working-class people across this province are getting diegruntled? They cannot make ends meet. When they look at the kind of salariea 3616

April 18, 1974. Tape 1175. Page 1 - apb that they are payin~. Sir, and it is the working-class people of this province who are payin~ these big salaries, no wonder they are getting disgruntled. Now wopdcr they are oessimistic. They are in a state of shock and despair. Make no wonder! One director of classification,and pay $21,700. One personnel officer III,$21,014. $21,000. One personal officer II, $19,000. Then at the bottom; extra assistants,~30.,190. I am goi~g to ask the minister to give me a breakdo~-n of that S30,000.

Sir, the poi-nt I am trying to make here is that this is one of the monsters that this government have created. Talk about creating a bureaucratic empire, Sir, there is a classic example right there, costing the taxpayers ,f this province $711,300. Almost $800,000, Sir. I do not think - A.~ HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) !!R. NF.ARY: Pardon? AN HON. MEMBER: Turn over to the next page. MR. NEARY: · ,Planning and priorities? No we will come to that later. Mr. Chairman, this sort of empire building we could do without in this province. It is too expensive, Sir, for Newfoundland and it is not juatified,in my opinion.

I could go through these estimates, Mr. Chairman, and I could pick out example after example of extravagance and waste in this budget that could give the Minister of Financ .e the $10 million that he needs without putting on that one per cent on the retail sales tax. We can,right through the whole estimates, Sir, with a sharp pencil . we could eliminate the dead wood throughout the extravagance and waste and we could come up with $10 million just like that. Then the minister is out on radio and television apologizing for having to increase the retail sales tax. ~- CROSBIE: finished? Mr. Ch.airman, - Oh!

The honourable gentleman is not ~ ~~NEARY:_ Sit down! Sit° down! "Sit down! you are rocking the boat." 3617

April 18, 1974, Tape 1175, Page 2 apb MR. CROSBIE: Only seventy-four hours to go. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the minister may think it is funny but it is not going to affect him. One per cent on the retail sales tax really does not make very much difference to the minister but it makes a lot bf difference, Mr. Chairman, to . the people of this province, the ordinary working-class people who do not have the ability to pay. They do not, Sir. They are throwing up their arms in disgust and in defeat while at the same time we see this great empire getting built here.

Treasury Board Secretariat costing the taxparers of this ·province almost $800,000 are down their living in their own little dream world. They have their own little empire. I think the last year, Sir, the last year that the much maligned Liberal Administration was in power, if we had two or three members on that Treasury Board Secretariat, that is about all we had. MR. CROSBIE: Twaddle! MR. NEARY: What was that? MR. CROSBIE: TWADDLE!! MR. NEARY: Twaddle? MR. CROSBIE: Twaddle! ·MR. RE.ARY: Not true? MB.. CROSBIE: That means foolish. MR. NEARY: Foolish? MR. CROSBIE: Not true. MR.

NEARY: Here is the minister, Sir, - I was driving over to Marshall Motors the other day to get my car repaired and I heard a lady calling in and saying; "It is wonderful. My God! It is wonderful to have a man like you Mr. Crosbie,with all the brains that you have. 11 MR. CROSBIE: That is right. That ia right. MR. NEARY: "All the brains in the government." The criteria she was using for brains, Sir, waa dollars and cents. MR. CROSBIE: t{o, Sir! MR. t."EARY: That Wal!I the criteria. MR. CROSBIE: I will tell the honourable 111ember what it was when I get to it. MR. NEARY: I will tell the minister what . it was.

All right! If the 3618

April 18, _1974, Tape 1175, Page 3' --apb minister is so brainy, he has all the brains, Sir, believe me - MR. CROSBIE: The honourable member has all the heart. One of the softest jobs MR. NEARY: ~ ._ CROSBIE: We remember that. The honourable member is all heart. Remember? ?!R._ NEARY: _ Mr. Chairman, one of the softest jobs - l-4l. CROSBIE: The Ex-Premier said the honourable member had no brains "But" he said; ''Steve has a wonderful heart." He was right. The heart is up in the head.I do not know where the brains are. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, can the minister restrain himself for a 'few moments?

If this brainy minister were so clever as this woman, obviously, who -was (No I will not make that statement~ Sir.) I can almost detect who the lady was. I can almost detect it. I can almost tell the minister who she was. MR. CROSBIE: It was not ~.rs. Hanlon? • MR. NEARY: No it certa:1.nly was not. The minister tried to abuse Mrs. Hanlon when she was right. She was putting embarrassing questions to the minister which he refused to answer. He flew off the handle, went off his head. He did, Mr. Chairman. The minister went off his head on the openline progr~e. AN HON. MEMBER: He could not take it. MR.

NEARY: He could not take it, Sir. Now, if that brainy minister is so smart - and believe me, Mr. Chairman, the softest job in the governme~t, (believe it or not) one of the softest jobs. Apart from my honourable friend down there from Harbour Main who has Provincial Affairs which was always considered as a joke, the softest job in ... government is the Minister of Finance, Sir. What does he do in between budgets? What does the Minister of Finance do, Mr. Chairman, in between budgets? He tries to leave the impression with Newfoundland that he is a ha~d worker~ ~- CROSBIE: That is a good question. MR.

NEARY: I would not like to see him with Highways or Social Services or Health. He would really go off his head. 3619

April 18, 1974, Tape 1175, Page 4 apb AM IION. MDmER: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: Not only that, Mr. Chairman, if he had a district to represent where all his problems were not taken care 'of by the City of St. John's, where his consti~uents were calling him up day and night, writing him and pounding on his door - MR. CHAIRl'.AN (Stagg): Order please! MR. NEARY: He would really go off his head then. MR. CHAlID'.AN (Stagg): Order Please! The honourable gentleman, . while he is making a point that is rather interesting and entertaining, it hardly relates to Treasury Board Secretariat. Mil.

NEARY: Sir, it is not very entertaining because it it true. lizryva.y, !'.r. Chairman, the point that l · am 1118king here is that this minister, who in rrry opinion has all kinds of leisure time, could handle many of these matters himself.instead of -pawning them off on a crowd of mandarins. AN BON. HEHB£R: The honourable member has the flu. Do not rush. MR. NE&llY: l do have the flu today, Sir. l must say rrry lungs are not the best today. If they were, Sir, the minister would hear . •omething. Instead of pawning off this responsibility on a crowd of innocent mandarins, Sir, ,. no wonder, Mr.

Chairman, no wonder the process of government is grinding ·to a halt. You would not make any wonder, Sir. This is only one of the empires that they have built up. Wait until we get down to the next one.flannin~ and Priorities. I know we we cannot talk about that one now but I am wo~dering, Mr. Chairman, if it is all oecessa~, .i..f all these big salaries are necessary. Could the 11011ey not be better used to provide housing? Or to provide jobs for our people? $800,000. Next year it will be $1 million. Where is it all going to end? Is it necessary? What do they do in other provinces?

Do they lash out this kind of money to get a crowd of Treasury Board officials to do the Minister of Finance's work for him? That is really what they are doing, Sir. The minister has himself insulated in his ~ffice down there, cut off from the outside world. He has his little crowd down there, running around doing his work for him. I wonder, Sir, if it is all 3620

April 18, 1974, Tape 1175, Page 5 -- apb necessary. I do not deny the fact that under the Treasury Board Secretariat there may be some good men. I know some of them personally and they are good men. ~.any of them are good men. This is not a condemnation of the individuals who make up the Treasury Board Secretariat. It is the fault of the minister for allowing this monster to be created, for allowing this empire to be built right under his very eyes, when the minister should be assuming more responsibility himself, Sir, instead of strutting around with his nose up in the air.

He should put his nose to the grind stone, roll up his sleeves. If he is going to leave the impression that he is a hard worker, well then, let him work. I hope, Mr. Chairman, that when we come into this House next year. instead of it _being almost $800,000 that it will be much less. I am afraid, Sir, that it is going to be much more, it is going to be $1 million. This honourable crowd, Mr.

Chairman, since they took office have thrown _more roadblocks and created more obstructions in the way of progress in this province_- I have heard, Sir, (I do not know if it is true or not, perhaps _the minister can tell me) that ministers, elected representatives of the people, have had a continuous running battle vith Treasury Board. Treasury Bo~rd is really running the provim:e not the elected representatives. I do not mind having a Treasury Board Secretariat, I think it is necessary .but I think it has gone completely out of control.

The power, the decision-making process no longer is in the bands of the elected representat .ives,Sir, it is in such boards as the Treasury Board Secretariat and the Planning and Priorities Committee. No wonder the ministers are getting frustrated. They cannot get decisions, they cannot get things done. ijverything is grinding to a halt. Every­ body is running around with a brief case and a piece of paper but nothing happening. This is the result, ·. Sir, of this kind of an empire that is being created.

I am all for running the province in a businesslike manner but I do not know if this is necessary, Sir. $711,300. Perhaps the 3621

April 18, 1974, Tape 1176, Page 1 --apb minister can justify it. No' doubt, when I take my seat he ~ill get up and say a few words, probably be his usual humourous self but, Sir 1 this is almost $300,000 of the taxpayers money. I hope the minister can justify it. I hope the minister will tell us what he himself does in between budgets. The Comptroller of the Treasury goes off and floats all the bond issues. What the minister does besides come into this honourable House and take away the mothers' allowance, do a hatchet job on the students and _increase taxes on the poor ordinary people of this province MR.

CHAlllf.AN (Stagg); Order please! MR. ?-."'EARY: What else does the minister do? AN HON.· iEMBER: The budget debate, HR. NEARY: No it is not the budget debate. MR.CROSBIE: I pull legs off spiders or dandy-longlegs. MR. NEARY: _ surprised. I would not be a bit surprised. I would not be a bit MR. CROSBIE: He forgo~ that one. MR. NE.ARY: Jm.r,,ay; Sir, I would like to hear the - · MR.. CROSBIE: I torment little old women. MR.. NEARY: That is what the minister did on openline the other day with "Mrs. Phone Forum." · Abused her.:.- . MR. CROSBIE..!. I splash them when they are walking on the sidewalks. MR.

NEARY: He could not take it. Now, Sir 1 I would like t9 hear the minister's explanation for all this empire building. •~1. this money that is being spent and all this extravagance and waste. Is it necessary? Tell us! Let us hear about it! MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, that was as valuable a contribution aa ve usually get from the honourable Member for Bell Ialand. That means that even John D.Snow could not sell it. What are we talking about here, Mr. Chairman? The honourable gentleman attacks the salaries paid to the Treasury Board staff, these gentlemen who are defenceless and unab~e to defend themselves.

An infamous attack upon vhat the members of the T-reasury Board staff are being paid. Well, I am here to do my beat to protect them in my own small way. 3622

April 18, 1974, Tape 1176, Page 2 · -apb What we are talling about is not $711,000 in salaries, Mr. Chainnan. The salaries we are talking about are $576,000 as compared to $542,000 last year in salaries. In this budget, Mr. Chairman, we are paying out in salaries $250 million to 27,000 people in this province - public servants, teachers, people who work at Memorial University and the rest of it . - $576,000 of that amount of $250 million is going to the people who work in the Treasury Board Secretariat, thirty-eight of them, of whom there are no more valuable members of the public service.

The honourable gentleman mentioned the salary of the secretary of the Treasury Board. An outstanding, young Newfoundlander, I do not know what his age is, about thirty-two or thirty-four, who joined the public service of Newfoundland about· six years ago. In six years he has come to one of the top civil service positions. An absolute crackerjack, talented, has his mast~rs degree in business _ administration, worked in the civil service. He is a civil servant­ he worked when the previous administration was in there.

One of the few good things they did in the last few years in office was to resurrect .the Treasury Board and get it operating. An absolutely first-class young Newfoundlander. Splendid! He could go anywhere, in any civil service,. in any business, who could earn outside today - he would have no difficulty today, Mr. Chairman, earning, I would say, at least thirty or forty thousand dollars in any one of the large companies in Newfoundland today. If he went to the Federal Civil Service he would be making thirty or forty thousand dollars. He is absolutely top-notch • .

He likes Newfoundland and he likes govermnent work •. He makes $24,500 which sounds a lot,of course, and it is a lot to the ordinary person to whom the Member for Bell Island is trying to address his remarks. He knows that that sounda a lot to somebody on welfare or somebody who is only a labourer or a fisherman and it is. · For the skills involved and the work involved that that gentleman puts into it, $24,500 is vastly underpaid. He receives 3623

April 18, 1974, Tape 1176, Page 3 -- apb no overtime, yet that particular young gentleman works, I would say, ·in the average week he works at least twenty to thirty hours more than he has to here, from nine o'clock to five-thirty o'clock. In the average week at least thirty hours,and does it because he likes the work. Splendid! Absolutely first-class, top-notch! I am delighted, I am so proud that the civil service of Newfoundland has someone in it like the secretary of the Treasury Board,!~. Victor Young. A splendid manl Now there are five on the Treasury Board staff, nineteen in classification and pay division.

These are the people who are in charge of the classification of all positions in the civil aervice, the hospital service and so on. Classificat~on and pay: A very unenviable job • . Everybody disagrees with how you classify dieir job. It is a tough job but the nineteen of the~, three in the the collective bargaining division - look at their responsibility, . Hr. Chairman. They are responsible for the collective bargaining on beha1f of the government with all our civil servants, with the hospital employ~es and everyone else whom the public treasury pays.

Thirty-five, I think it was, collective bargaining agreement  · entered into last year. The head of .tlie Collective Bargail!ing Division, Mr. Ted Blanchard, who is now Deputy Minister of Labour - a tremendous, first-class man,respected .throughout the labour movement. Now, unluckily we have lost him. He has become Deputy Minister of Labour and ve have to beef up the staff. I will tell you about salaries,­ Hr. Chairman, and how underpaid these men are. Hr. Alcock, who worked with us last year, · one of the three, Mr. Blanchard, ?-fr. Dave Norris and Hr.

Alcock, the_youngest of them,left us about three months ago. Be is gone with the Newfoundland Labrador Construction Aasociation, where he i• getting, I think it is around five thousand dollars more than he could get from us on the Collective Bargaining Division at Treasury Board. -<:, You have to pay, Mr. Chairman, what is necessary to attract the right skilled people into thee jobs. They have other place  to 3624

April 18, 1974, Tape 1176, Page ~ --apb go, they do not have to come to the Newfoundland Government Service. They can go tomorrow to private industry, they can go with the unions, they can go with the federal government, other provincial governments, so they have to be paid. In all of these classifications I would say our people are paid less than their counterparts, certainly in the federal government. Then we have a Budgeting Division which is a new division. A lot of work was done by these people on the present year's budge~ headed by Hr.

Sansom, a first-class man who was with the Power Company at Deer Lake until a few months ago. ~ Organizational !fanagement .Division headed by !Ir. Olivero, a first-class man. An Organizational Management Division of government to advise on how departments should be organized, on the proper management,and on the proper form of organization. Trey have done invaluable work the last year or two.

So, thirty-eight of them in the Treasury Board, all of them doing fi~st-class work, all work far longer hours than they are required to and I say that this $576,000 - there will be not another ·item like this, more valuable, voted than this $576,000. What does the Treasury Board have to do in addition to those things? It has td try to watch the estimates, it has to approve or disapprove reqW!sts from the departments for spending outside the estimates, sometimes within it and so on. It is not a job for which you get much thanks. They have ta be the watchdogs of the treasury,and try to keep spending within bounds.

The President of the Treasury Board does not fool himself. He knows that he is looked on as public enemy No. (1) by his colleagues and by everyone who wants more money spent that is not provided for in the budget. If somebody do not undertake the job,we will be in pretty slack shape, we would be down the drain pretty 3625

April 18, 1974. Tape 1177 RH - l _quickly because there ·is no end of requests for money and we have to try to exercise some controls. There is only so much we can borrow. So this $576,000, I am going to vote for it with a heart and a half. It is the most valuable $576,000 in the estimates and I am de­ lighted and pleased that the honourable gentleman is givin~ me a chance to praise these invaluable employees, the treasury board,who have been such great assistants to me. Now, what do I do in between budgets? Why, I am taking up tatting.

I sit d09a there in my office in the Department of Finance and I am now learnin~ tatting. Last year I learned how to knit and 1 learned how to sew and 1 have read the ocld.Jbook. 1 find something to keep my body and soul together. 1 usu.B:lly arrive into the office around eleven thirty and I have coffee hour then, for an hour we have our coffee, have a good old chat, run_!downstairs and have another coffee,dovn.stairs usually. Then I get up around one o'clock and 'it is lunch time. Then off I go and sometimes the Premier has me to lunch. -lle have our little bit of hard tack, tea,at lunch time.

Then I usually stroll back in around three o'clock and if the Rouse·of Assembly~e meeting, I drop in here. I like it. I like coming in here, Mr. Chairman, and listening to the member for Bell Island. That is the only one we ever seem to get to listen to. Nobody else has a chance. The big mouth 9f the honourable member for Bell Island , is flapping hour after hour, day after day, but I like it. So, from three to aix I like to drop in- here and then if we are meeting in the night time, I like to drop back in again.and listen to some more of the Mlllber for Bell Island. So it is a wonderful life, a pleasant life.

It is almost like a holi"y every day and I am glad that the honourable ~entleman pointed it out because the Minister of'Finance's job is a snap. Row, he mentioned what else? Yea, salaries. Golly! I think I have a119Wl!red all of the points the honourable gentleman made except one. The honourable ientleman had the gall, had the audacity, he had the 3626

April 181 1974. Tape 1177 RH ,;,. 2 net"Ve to mention this one per cent increase in the sales tax that was announced last week. What gall has he got, Mr. Chainnan, to mention that? He who vas in the Liberal administration that instituted the sales taxi We had no sales tax before the honourable gentleman's administration .instituted it. Five per cent they started in 1963,and inexorably they crept up. We have an eight per cent sales tax today, Kr. Chait'lllan, and seven per cent of it is the Liberal tax and one per cent is the P.C. tax. One-ei~hth of the sales tax is the P.C. tax, seven-eights is the Liberal tax.

The honourable gentleman has the gall to mention that the sales tax went up. You would think.he would keep quiet. Seven-eights of the sales tax is his, his party's, one-eighth is ours. Nov he dares criticize it. Five per cent in· 19631 then in 1967 it went to six per cent. We never heard the member for Bell Island protest in 1967, not a squeek 1 not a umnnur1 not a giggle from the member of Bell l_!lland when that went up in 1967. Re was a backbencher but he was a backbencher then with a difference. He did not dare open his mouth in 1967.

Ro, Sir, it is only since we liberated him in 1972 that he bu h•en beard from. Hot a IIOUDd from him in 196 7 when she went · to •:lz per cent and then in 1968 it vent to seven per cent. Did we hear from the member for Bell Island? Did he storm up and down the land protesting against .this infamy? No, not a murmur froa him vhen '.hia party put it up to seven per cent. Did he protest in 1968 when it vu ntended to hotel and motelacc~d•~~ons, tele­ phone services, telecommmications 1 repairs, laundry and drycleaning? Did the honourable g~tleman protest then? No, he did not .protest then . .

Di4 he protest when it went on to chockey-bars, on the soft drinka? No, he did not protest then, not a word, not a murmur. Did he hail us and salute us when ve took it off the children's clothing in 1972? Did he say how good the government vas, what a wonderful ,covernment this P.C. Covernment vas 1 what heart the Minister of Finance had? Rot at all .. He did not {'ive me any praise or credit, not one hit, Mr. Chairman when we took the Liberal tax off the. children•~ clothu. 3627

April 18, 1974. Tape 1177 RH - 3 What did he do in January, 1974, when we removed that Liberal tax from the furnace oil and the stove oil and the heating oil? Did we hear 'him praise us up and down the land ~hen? No, not a word when we took off that Liberal seven per cent from the stove and fuel oil. What did we hear from the honourable gentleman when his Liberal administration increased the personal income tax in 1969 when they put it up five points from twenty-eight to thirty-three? · Did we hear him protest? No, ve did not hear him protest and I can go on to the gas tax.

What happened vhen the gas tax wenc up, the corporation tax.?' We know that be would be all for that, he is all for the corporation tax .• The gas tax vent up five cents in 1968,from twenty cents a gallon to twenty­ five cents a gallon. ·· Did we hear the honourable gentleman then cry out against this cruel Liberal gas tax? Every cent of the gas tax is the Liberal tax. All twenty-five cents of the gasoline tax is the Liberal tax. Every percentage of the corporation tax is the Liberal tax. Every point of the income tax is the Liberal tax except for the four that we have added.

Four out of forty• four out of forty is P.C., thirty-six out _of fort~ is Liberal, Liberal, Liberal, Liberal tax; Seven of the eights points of the sales tax -•~.~_;iberaL _ . . The honourable gentleman dares to criticize it._ Dare they open their -,uths? Yes,they da~e·open their mouths because they think the people of Newfoundland have forgotten. They have not forgotten, Mr. Chairman, and we will see they do not forget.

I personally pledge to see that they do not forget and all wy colleagues on this side of the House are unanimous in their deteraination that the people of Newfoundland know how much of their tax burden is Liberal and how much is P.C. Row, every government has to impoae taxes and I would not even mention, Mr. Cltairman, theae Liberal t~es, I would be too much of a gentleman to mention them if the honourable gentleman were not trying to take such a slieveen tack.

If they would .1ust say, "We realize the people of Newfoundland have to have services, therefore there has to be taxes," and not try to make a fuss about it. No one likes taxea. I do not like them, nobody does. I would not even -.ntion these Liberal 3628

April 18 1 1974. Tape 1177 RH - 4 impositions but if that is the game they want to play.then we have to remind the people of Newfoundland it does not matter what ~overnment is in office. At some point.reluctantly, occasionally taxes must go up. Our one per cent increase, reluctant as it is, is only one out of eight points and our four points on the income tax is only four out of forty. So, I hope the honourable gentleman will take the hint and not bore this honourable House any longer with any more mutterin~s and cluckin~s and allegations about the same increase in taxes we had last week. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, the minister has me in tears, Sir, tears with his defence of the Treasury Board Secretariat which is the item we are discussing at the present time, Sir. I have no doubt at all that some of these gentlemen that the minister referred to, Sir, are capable men. They have a great deal of_ability. I have no doubt about that at all, Sir.

What I criticize the minister for, I did not criticize the members of the Treasury Board's Secretariat, Sir, far be it from me to do that, but the minister tryed to leave that impression in this honourable House that I was attacking defenceless people~ That, Sir, is inc~rrect. That is not true. I was attacking the minister ror allowing this monster to be created, this empire to be built up. The real power in this Province today, Sir, is in that Treasury Board Secretariat, not in the ·hands of the elected representatives of the people who should :·be taking the decisions. That was the point I made, Sir.

I did not attack defenceless :people, men who are not in this Houae to defend themselves. The minister has a technique for twisting and turning things. Then, Sir, he went on to try to defend his tax increases. Mr. Chairman, I came into this honourable House in 1962 and I was in this honourable Rouse four years before the Minister of Finance managed to get a seat in this honourable House, thanks to Mr. Smallwood. The present Minister of Finance was brought into this Honourable House by fonner Liberal Leader and former Premier of this Province, Joey Smallwood, who brought in 3629

April 18, 1974. Tape 1177 RB - 5 both him and the Minister t>f Justice and the Hin;tstei: of Municipal Affairs . and. Rousing, gave them a seat in this ~onourable Bouse. They had it passed over to them on a silver platt~r. They did not have to ea~ it or wi:-lt for it. it was pass~d over to them. Tbe.y were hooked on to Joey's .coat tails. AN RONOlJRABLE M!MBER: Does that mean you were too? l!ll. ·MEAKY: llo, 'I was not, Kr. Chairman. I had to eam 111)' sPQrs. 3630 ....

April 18, 1974 Tape 1178 I had to win my seat from a Tory. I had to knock off a Tory and we already talked about that earlier this afternoon, Sir. Sir, IB-1 I sat here for four years, worked hard, I was outspoken. Mr. Chairman, there is nobody in this honourable House who was as outspoken as I was. They say Mr. Smallwood was a dictator. He never tried to lllllzzle me in any way. I had complete freedom. I spoke out on every issue that I wanted to speak out on.

Sir, like all parties sometimes when a party wants to do something, when the administration that is in power wants to do something and they hold a caucus the same as the administration does today, they may come to· an agreement that they will go into the House and put up a tmited front on certain issues even though, Mr. Chairman, there may be individual members of that caucus wt>o may violently disagree with the decision that is taken. That is the party system. What is wrong with it? AN HONOURABLE ~~ER: What has that got to do with it?

MR. -NEARY: It has all to do with it because the Minister of Finance just raised it and I am answering the 't-'inister of Finance what he just said. Mr. Chairman, I can tell you this, Sir, that I have always been .concerned since I came into this House in 1962 about the way tax increases are imposed on the people of this province. My view~ were made known in the proper place at the proper time, Sir. 'AN HONOURABLE 1-fEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Ah, Mr. Chairman, that is not the way the party system works! One does not resign, Sir, every time ohe is overruled or outvoted.

If so, they would have resignations over there right now,would they not? I was standing up .for my principles, Sir, but, Mr. Cha:lrman, here is what I am leading up to. In 1966, Sir, there was a new crop of polit!cians came into this honourable House, the briefcase swinging type, the harbour type, the well-to-do lawyer, the rich people were · brought into this House, _much to my chagrin, Sir. I did not get a cabinet seat at the time. I was a backbencher for six and a half years. I earned my cabinet seat too. But, they were brou~ht in over the head, Sir, 3631

April 18, 1974 Tape 1178 of senior members of this honourable House,including my colleague who is sitting here on my left and put then in the cabinet, these l>right, • young geniuses, these well-to-do rich lawyers and businessmen. Mr.' Chairman, let me tell you this ., Sir, that the author of the chocolate bar tax and the soft drink tax just took his seat. Oh, Mr. Chairman, I am not going to sit here in this honourable House and have abuse heaped on me by the Minister of Finance. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

I have sat in this Bouse myself for a number of years and I am quite frankly sick of listening to: "You did! You did not! You did! You did not!"from over there, wj,th respect to what went on in that great and now defunct Liberal Party. Row we are discussing the treasury board secretariate. I believe we are on salaries and I do not think what the honourable member for Bell Island is saying now has one iota of relevancy to the particular topic. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, to that poi~t of order, Sir. The Minister of Finance, Sir, in his remarks made ceTtain points, Sir, that need to be clarified and answered •.

That is all I am doing, Sir. I trust that the Cha!r will give me and members of t~is ,ide of the House the same leeway ·as they give the ministers and members on that aide of the House. That is all I am uking for• Sir., MR. MARSHALL: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. That is nonsense. '11:ie honourable member if he thought the honourable ~inister of Finance vas being irrelevant could have gotten up on a point of order the same way as I am. He did not get up because the honourable Minister of Finance has never been irrelevant to the point.

He is always right to the point and decisive, incisive and all the rest of it. So, certainly it ie not up to the Chair to intervene at all and we hear this from time to time, "Will the Chair give the same latitude to this aide•• the other side? And continue to insult the Chair and the Speaker of thi• Rouee. It ie not a question of that a~ all. The question is that I am rising on a point of order as any member 3632

April 18, 1974 Tape 1178 IB-3 of this House could rise on a point of order if they so wish to. The honourable member for Bell Island is being completely and absoluteiy irrelevant to the point at issue when he keeps talking about all of this stuff in the past that nobody is interested in but himself. We are speaking, MT. Chairman, to 304-01, Salaries for the Treasury Board Secretariate,and the honourable ~mber for Bell Island is being irrelevant. 1-!R.. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, may I speak to that point of order?

I would like to point out to Your Honour, Sir, that we are discussing item 304, Treasury Board Secretariate. The Minister of Finance, Sir, rightly pointed out in his remarks that the treasury board secretariate are the watchdogs of the treasury. They are the ones who keep control on the purse strings and they are the ones who recommend tax increase, Sir, to the Lieutenant Govemor-in-Co,mcil. They are the ones, Mr. Chairman. I am perfectly within my ~ights, Sir, to discuss this matter and to answer the points that have been raised by the Minister of Finance. MR. MARSHALL: That has nothing to do wUh it.

MR. -NEARY: It has all to do with it. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. DUNPHY): Order, please: The Chair has listened to the honourable gentleman from Bell Island and thus feel he is being irrelevant to this issue that we are now discussing, Salaries for Treasury Board-Secretariate. ~ Whether or not the former speaker, the Minister of Finance, was irrelevant or not is not important. The fact that he was or was not does not mean that we must have repetition of more irrelevancy. So, I would suggest that the member for Bell Island confine his remarks to 304-01. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, I think Your Honour, Sir, is really pinning me down here because we are not discussing salaries, Mr. Chairman. We are not discussing salaries. we are discussing item 304, Treasury Board Secretariate which is much broader than salaries. We are not on salaries yet, Sir. We are on that ~articular subhead. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: We are on 304-01, Salaries. ... MR : NEA~Y: Mr. Chairman, it has been my understandin~ since I have been in 3633

April 18, 1974 Tape 1178 IB-4 this honourable House, Sir, that when you come to the heading 304 - 01 is salaries - that then you can debate at some length, Sir, and that you can have pretty broad - AN HONOURABLE ~~ER: General policies. MR. NEARY: Yes, you can talk about general policies under this particular heading, Mr. Chairman. Mil. CHAIRMAN (MR. DUNPHY): Order, please. MI understand it,we are discussing 304-01, Salaries. To go outside of this I think we are being irrelevant and repetitious. So, if we could get on with it 7 it would be much appreciated. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I do not have any choice but to appeal your ruling, Sir. That is an incorrect ruling. I appeal your ruling, Sir. It is a wrong, wrong ruling, Sir, and it is creatinr a very dangerous precedent. MR. MARSHALL: The honourable member for Bell Island has been he-re since 1962 and he obviously did not know the rules of the House and he still does not. When he is talking about speaking on the general thing _ of the department, one must refer to the first one, 301. Well, one does not discuss the Lieutenant Govemor's establishment but 302 under the Premier's office, the first vote in each department.

Then there is a general wide-ranging debate J!fow, we are down further •. We are down to specifics. We are down into 304-01, Treasury Board Secretariate. If the honourable member for Bell Island wishes to be foolish and to appeal the ruling, he can go ahead and do it but he is totally and absolutely wrong. I would suggest that he withdraw his stated intention to appeal the ruling. MR, NEARY: Inaudible. MR. llfARSHALL: I am not through yet. Sit down• Sit dowft. I am not through _.

I mean, if the honourable member want to get not a poatgraduate courae but an elementary course in the rules, we would be glad to iin it to him Be obvioual~,wben he sat here for so many years with such a great deal of indepeadence,vas depending on somebody other than himself~becaus~ he knows not what he is talking about. 3634

April 18, 1974 Tape 1178 IB-5 HR. NEARY: All I am asking is for the same leeway that the ~inister of Finance had, Sir, when he spoke mider this subhead. That is all I am asking, Sir, and I am prepared to withdraw my mo tiorr if I. can have the same treatment, no more or no less than the Minister of Finance had, Sir. AN HONOURABLE MEMHER: He is gettinB the same treatment. MR. NEARY: I am not getting the same treatment, Sir. Your Honour has ruled that you cannot discuss anything but salaries under this subhead. That is what Your Honour has ruled. That is an incorrect ruling, Sir, I submit.

Well, it is the minister who is misguiding the Chairman, misleading the Chairman. So, Your Honour maybe I will carry on and just see how far I will get with this - MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. DUNPHY): Is he appealing the ruling or is he not? MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, I am prepared. to carry on and just see how far I can get with answering some of the points. MR. CHAIR?-'.AN (MR. DUNPHY): I suggest that the honourable member withdraw it and carry on and see if we can get through with this. MR. NEARY: All right, Sir, I will withdraw it for the moment.

Sir, the Minister of Finance in his remarks talked about the necessity for increasing or adding one cent to the retail sales tax. Well, Sir, I say to the minister that this year he is going to get from the Govemment of C.anada an additional $28 million 3635

April 18, 1974 Tape No. ·1179 -ffll-1 in equalization grants an additional $28 million, Sir, and this is a result of the federal tax on heating oil in Western Canada, I claim, Mr. Chairman, that some of this money could have been used not only to offset an increase in taxes, Sir, but to reduce taxes in this province. The lllinister by his own admission 1a bis Budget Speech stated that there was a surplus in current account last year of almost $14 million. Mil. CROSBIE: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman; this is not relevant and the honourable gentleman is not addressing any argument I have made.

He addressed himself to Treasury Board salaries and I answered him on the point about salaries. Be brought up the point about an increase in sales tax and I pointed out to him how ID&ny times he put up the sales tax. What he is talking about now is more suited for the Budget Speech. He is arguing about the question • of whether taxes needed to be raised this year and what expenditures of - government could have been cut out this year. Be is not addressing ht.self to the Treasury Board Secretariat . nor salaries for Treasury ~Board Secretariat at· all. Ml.. IIEAI.Y: Mr.

Speaker, to that point of order: That is only a matter of opinion; Sir, that is not a point of order. The minister has expressed an·opinion. · Now, Sir, if I choose to discuss certain matters under the Treasury Board Secretariat rather than in the Budget Speech, that is of no concern to the minister. That is my own business • The minister ha~ expressed an opinion, Sir, not a point of .order, I submit. Mil. CBOSBIE: Well, Mr. Speaker, in connection with the .point of order, I would like to refer to some authority.

As the member for Bell Island is replying to a point of order and he has no authority to cite of course except his authority as a member of thu House - MR. NEAllY: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Bow just be patient. If the ~onourable gentleman vill. be patient I vill come to it. Page 201, Mr. Speaker, of Beauchesne 3636

April 18, 1974 Tape No. 1179 -NM - 2 says this,

section 239, "The whole management of a Department may be discussed in a general way when the Committee of Supply is considering the first resolution of the Estimates of that Department; which reads as follows:" 'General Ac:Jministration' (amount stated); but the discussion must not be extended to any particular item mentioned in the Estimates of that Department." Now we are on Treasury Board Secretariat, we are not on the first item of the Executive Council Department and the honourable gentleman cannot talk generally about anything he like.

Even if it were the first item of the Estimates, he would have to restrict himself to discussing the Executive Council or if it~ere on Treasury Board,to discussing Treasury Board. He.cannot make a speech as he would in the Budget Speech ranging over the whole field of government activiti~s and discuss whether a tax increase is justified or not justified by other expenditures. He must restrict himself to Treasu~y -Board. That is quite clear from Beauchesne. It is clear from all previous practice and precedent in this House. MR. ROBER.IS: Mr..

Chairman, if I may say a word on that point; There are I think two relevant remarks. The first of all is that in the Executive Council,which the government have choseni true there is precedent but the government have continued to set up as a separate head of·. expenditures, there is no general vote. There is no minister's salary vote as such. We do have minister's salaries paid within the Beading 302,which is the Office of the Premier, and Heading 303,which is the Executive Council Office.but there is no minister's salary.

There is no general vote~ Furthermore, this 304, this Head,by the government's direction and choice as is their right, has been the first resolution called and the citation just read by the Minister of Finance 239 on page 231 of Beauchesne's,fourth