December

5, 1997

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS

Vol. XLIII No. 45

The House met at 9:00 a.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

Before we begin the daily routine, the Chair would like to

welcome today to the galleries Mr. Michael Patey from Badger. Mr. Patey is

co-owner and operator of the new school, DieTrac Technical Institute, in Grand

Falls-Windsor.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and

Employment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS BETTNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Tomorrow is the

National Day of Remembrance and Action on Violence Against Women. This date

commemorates the tragic murder of fourteen women at Montreal's cole

Polytechnique engineering school. This date is also a stark reminder of the many

women in Newfoundland and Labrador who are beaten, sexually assaulted and, in

some cases, murdered every year.

Mr. Speaker, it has long been recognized that violence has

its roots in inequality. Status of Women Councils in this Province operate

Women's Centres where victims of violence receive daily support and advice. The

Councils not only provide a variety of unique services which complement those

offered by government. They also work for change by promoting women's individual

and collective empowerment and advancing the status of women.

In our efforts to ensure continued progress for women's

equality, the Status of Women Portfolio was restructured last year to provide

Status of Women Councils with greater input into policy department. Seven of the

eleven seats on the Provincial Advisory Council on the Status of Women were made

available to these local Councils.

Mr. Speaker, on April 1, 1998, Status of Women Councils in

the Province will no longer be eligible for sustaining funding from Status of

Women Canada. Funding to operate has been essential to the Councils being able

to access funding for projects from other sources. While they will continue to

be eligible for project funding from the federal Women's Program, the change

will mean that many of them may have difficulty keeping Centres open.

Mr. Speaker, the Women's Centres provide unique services that

are of value to the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. We are determined

to see that these services continue. It gives me great pleasure today to

announce a Multi-departmental Agreement to fund the core services of Women's

Centres.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS BETTNEY: The Departments of Health, Human Resources

and Employment, Education, Justice, Development and Rural Renewal, Municipal and

Provincial Affairs and Women's Policy Office will contract with women's centres

to provide core services related to their mandates. Each centre will receive

$30,000 in the next fiscal year. Government will work with the councils to

develop a strategic approach to service delivery and evaluate both the funding

levels and the process after one year.

Mr. Speaker, because these centres provide safe and

supportive environments, they attract a group of clients who may not otherwise

access services through the traditional routes. The provision of support,

advocacy and time are unique services to women and their families offered by

women's centres. In addition to providing funding for core services, departments

may negotiate contracts for specific services to be provided through the women's

centres, either directly or through the encouragement of partnership agreements

with community health boards, school boards and Regional Economic Development

Boards.

Mr. Speaker, developing partnerships with volunteer groups

who provide services responsive to community needs is consistent with the new

direction that government is pursuing through the Strategic Social Planning

process. The multi-departmental approach to assisting women's centres in their

role in addressing violence and safety issues in our communities is a good

example of government's integrated approach to service delivery for women and

their families.

Mr. Speaker, since December 6, falls on Saturday this year,

commemorative activities are being held today for the women who lost their lives

in the Montreal massacre and those who are victims of violence in our own

Province.

Within Confederation Building during the day today, the

Provincial Strategy Against Violence, Women's Policy Office and various

community groups who are working to end violence, have set up information booths

in the conference centre at the West Block, there will be videos and there will

also be resource people available to answer questions.

Mr. Speaker, I would encourage my colleagues to attend as

many of these activities as possible. I would also like to commend my colleagues

and the Premier for their pledges of support shown through participating in the

White Ribbon campaign announced last week.

This government has demonstrated its commitment to addressing

violence and other issues of concern to women. Today's partnership with women's

centres will strengthen our ability to advance women's equality.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's West.

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the minister for providing me with a copy of the

statement, and I welcome today - I think there are people from the Women's

Centre here - Ms Joyce Hancock in the gallery.

The massacre of fourteen women at the University of

Montreal's cole Polytechnique in 1989 shocked hundreds of thousands of

Canadians out of their complacency regarding violence against women.

I think it is appropriate that we remember those fourteen

engineering students who died in 1989: Genevive Bergeron, Hlne Colgan,

Nathalie Croteau, Barbara Daigneault, Anne-Marie Edward, Maud Haviernick,

Barbara Marie Klueznick, Maryse Laganiere, Maryse Leclair, Anne-Marie Lemay,

Sonia Pelletier, Michele Richard, Annie St-Arneault, and Annie Turcotte.

These fourteen women died a horrible death and the real

tragedy is that they are not with us today. But their deaths were not entirely

in vain, because we, as a society, have taken hold of the event and made it a

symbol of our commitment to end violence against women.

That violence can take many forms. In Montreal, we saw one

very public extreme. But we must not forget that in many hidden rooms throughout

our Province today, our sisters and nieces, our mothers, daughters, aunts,

cousins and neighbours who are women, are often suffering silently and alone in

their prisons of violence.

When many of these women need assistance they turn to their

local women's centres where they know they will find others who are sensitive to

their plight and who can help them and provide a refuge for them and their

children. How many times have community volunteers rescued women from violence?

I am extremely pleased that the minister today announced core

funding for each centre. These centres must continue, not only to provide refuge

but also a clearing house of important information, a focal point for grassroots

campaigns against violence, such as Take Back The Night celebrations, and

centres of strength, where women can learn to take charge of their situations

and become, not victims alone, but survivors of violence.

Indeed, one of the key strategies of The Provincial

Strategy Against Violence published by the government is peer education

where community groups use educational packages to spread the message into the

community from their centres.

Let us remember the fourteen victims of the Montreal massacre

today, but let us honour them by taking care of their sisters, not only today

but for all of our tomorrows.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture

and Recreation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS KELLY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Today, it gives me great pleasure to advise my hon.

colleagues that a Memorandum of Understanding was signed this past weekend by

the Newfoundland T'Railway Council and the Department of Tourism, Culture and

Recreation.

Mr. Speaker, this M.O.U. will be a tremendous benefit to the

development of the T'Railway Park and its users. Under this agreement, the

T'Railway Council will provide the necessary advice and support to government in

our administration and management of this Newfoundland T'Railway Park. This

partnership arrangement will give individuals, groups, and communities

interested in the T'Railway Park a direct voice in the park's success.

The T'Railway Council has made considerable progress in

developing sections along the newly proclaimed provincial park. The council has

also provided my department with valuable programming direction. This M.O.U.

will enable the T'Railway Council to take on a more active role in the

advancement of the recreational and tourism benefits associated with the

T'Railway.

Mr. Speaker, government is committed to establishing a

multi-use trail across this Province. We have just recently completed a review

of motorized and non-motorized use on the trail, and today I am pleased to

announce the new off-road vehicle policy for the Newfoundland T'Railway. The new

policy states that the T'Railway will be managed as an all-season, multi-use

recreational corridor. It also states that off-road vehicles will be permitted

on the T'Railway unless prohibited by the minister. As minister, I will accept

and review proposals to prohibit off-road vehicles on sections of the T'Railway

based on: (1) a formal request made by a municipality to prohibit off-road

vehicles within the municipality's boundaries, including a rationalization for

the request and any implications; and (2) if the request is granted, the

municipality must bear the cost of erecting barriers and signage.

Mr. Speaker, the tourism benefits associated with a

multi-season T'Railway are substantial. This all-season park will extend the

tourism season for the areas adjacent to the park, and as such, will increase

economic benefits for those accommodations, restaurants, adventure tour

companies, and snowmobile/ATV operators in the areas bordering on the T'Railway.

An extended operating season, Mr. Speaker, is a priority for many tourism and

hospitality businesses operating in rural Newfoundland.

The Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation is looking

forward to a highly productive partnership with the T'Railway Council: a

partnership which will guarantee maximum benefits for all users of the former

railbed and especially, the tourism industry.

Thank you very much.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay

South.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I first of all would like to thank the minister for providing

me with a copy of her statement, and I say to her, Minister, this is indeed

welcome news. One of your colleagues, the Member for Topsail, and I, attended a

meeting last night - and I hope this does not go on, or I am sure he hopes it

does not go on, but he and I are on the same wavelength as it comes to this

T'Railway, especially going through part of the district that I represent and

part of the district that my colleague represents. Of course, the municipality

out there has already barred or tried to bar motorized vehicles from this

particular park as it runs through part of the district of Topsail and part of

the district of Conception Bay South. So I say to the minister that the quicker

we get on with this, the quicker we allow my constituents and the Member for

Topsail's constituents the right to use this track in a fair manner, which they

have certainly been denied at this particular point in time. So I certainly

welcome this news this morning.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the Department of Development and

Rural Renewal and the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation are working

together to explorer strategic opportunities which have potential to benefit the

economy of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Today, the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, and I

are pleased to inform all members of the House of Assembly of a very significant

new initiative being taken to strengthen our winter tourism industry and to

diversify our rural economy.

Mr. Speaker, the Provincial Government is pursuing the

construction of a quality, high-yield winter tourism product, namely, a groomed

snowmobile trail system in the Province.

Around the world, our land is recognized for its fantastic

beauty and recreational potential. Development of a winter trail system will be

very beneficial for our people in two ways - recreationally and economically.

An indication of the tremendous economic potential for

snowmobile activity here in Newfoundland and Labrador, is that about $2 billion

is spent annually by Canadian snowmobilers. Economic spin-offs in Ontario alone

are $550 million a year. That province, along with Quebec and our fellow

Atlantic province, New Brunswick, have demonstrated a return to their economies

on money invested by governments on a twenty to one ratio.

Mr. Speaker, snowmobile industry experts also tell us that

Newfoundland and Labrador is potentially the most attractive snowmobiling

destination in North America and around the world. We have great competitive

advantages in terms of length of season, terrain and snow conditions. The truth

is that we in Newfoundland and Labrador can become a major international

snowmobile tourism destination area.

A highly developed world-class trail system in our Province,

supported by an aggressive marketing campaign, will mean new business

opportunities and new jobs for our people.

At present, as the Minister of Tourism, Culture and

Recreation would agree, our tourism efforts are focused largely on the summer

season. But a first-class winter trail system will strengthen the economy of

many rural communities. New winter products will make the overall tourism sector

more diversified and more viable.

A top-notch snowmobile trail system in our Province will

result in millions of new dollars being injected into our economy.

Mr. Speaker, I want to pay credit to the rural Economic

Development Boards, and to say that it was in meetings with the Cabinet

Committee on Rural Revitalization that several Regional Economic Development

Boards clearly identified the economic benefits for a winter trail system in

this Province.

This government will be seeking a partnership with the

federal government, Regional Economic Development Boards, community groups,

local snowmobile clubs, and the Newfoundland and Labrador Snowmobile Federation,

as well as other stakeholders, to make our Province one of the premiere

snowmobile destinations in North America and the world.

The trail will extend from St. George's to Clarenville, and

up to St. Anthony up to the Northern Peninsula, and back down again.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I emphasize that this is a new and

exciting opportunity for economic development and tourism in rural Newfoundland

and Labrador, employment for hundreds of our people, and millions of dollars in

new revenues.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. First of

all, I would have appreciated a copy of the statement but I didn't get a copy.

Anyway, I didn't need a copy because I'm very familiar with

this. As a matter of fact, in my district the snowmobile association is very

active. I've been in discussions with them as of late. I agree wholeheartedly

with the minister, a lot of people in this Province don't realize the potential

with the snow of course that we usually have, of course, keeping in mind that we

have had a couple of strange winters when it comes to snowfall the last couple

of years, but on the whole this idea is very good for especially the northern

and western part of Newfoundland.

In my district, like I say, they have started to actually do

the trails out there. They are looking forward to being able to groom those

trails. But the snowmobile industry - and I have talked to people in that

industry who say that as good as Copper Creek and Marble and White Hills and

that is with skiing, the potential for the snowmobile industry is even greater,

and that comes from a person in the skiing industry.

Of course, Mr. Speaker, in parts of the country like British

Columbia and so on, it is very well developed and it has great potential. So I

encourage the minister to keep on moving in this direction and we look forward

to some great developments in this industry.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions today

are for the Premier.

The latest net out-migration figures compiled by Stats Canada

show a disturbing trend. Six years ago we lost over 700 people; five years ago

it was 1,600 people; four years ago it was over 3,000 people; three years ago it

was 4,900; two years ago it was over 6,900; a year ago it was over 7,400; and

this year we have lost over 9,200 - twenty-five people a day, I say to the

Premier, every day. Now, is this a crisis or what?

When are you, as leader of this government and this Province,

going to take seriously your responsibilities and bring forward a comprehensive

economic strategy to halt the haemorrhaging of our human life blood?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Leader of the

Opposition for his questions. These questions are on a matter that I think is

serious, and a matter that concerns all of the people of Newfoundland and

Labrador.

I think we all recognize in this House, and we all recognize

in this Province, that since the collapse of the fishery in 1992 we have had a

steady increase in acceleration in this levels of out-migration in the Province

of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, the reality is that when the fishery collapsed

in 1992, when the hon. John Crosbie announced that the fishery was going into a

moratorium, he announced at that time that he hoped that the program, or the

measures that he put in place for two years, would be sufficient to carry over

fishing communities, rural Newfoundland, until such time as the fishery could be

reopened; and, if we cast our minds back, we will recall that was the way in

which the problem was defined.

Mr. Speaker, two years later the fishery had not reopened

and, as a matter of fact, we went from a closure of 2J+3Kl, the Northeast Coast

of the Province, to adding closures on the South Coast of the Province, 3Pn+3Ps,

and closures on the Gulf Coast of the Province, 4Rs, and even more communities

found themselves dislocated from the fishery, and at that time there was an

announcement of a program to last five years. We all know it is now only being

run for four years, with the hope that after that period of time the fishery

would come back.

The Leader of the Opposition knows that beyond a modest but

important fishing effort this year on the South Coast, and a modest but

important fishing effort this year on the Gulf Coast and 4Rs, the entire

groundfish fishery of the Northeast Coast of the Province, the Northern cod

stocks, that entire fishery remains closed. He knows as well that 99 per cent of

the spawning biomass in offshore trawl surveys is missing.

Mr. Speaker, the reason I say this, because this question is

important, is the simple reality remains that tens of thousands of our people

remain displaced from their traditional way of life, and that is why this House

has worked so hard, the Minister of Rural Renewal and the Minister of Fisheries

have worked so hard, and we are working hard to ensure follow-up measures from

Ottawa to assist this Province in post programming for TAGS so that we don't

have an even more accelerated rate of leaving from the Province of Newfoundland

and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I don't want a historic account of what happened. I asked

you: What have you done for a comprehensive economic strategy? You have done

nothing, Premier, only beat around the bush.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Now, Stats Canada tells us that over the

next twenty years Newfoundland and Labrador will lose another 40,000 people on

top of the 40,000 we have just lost.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: Over the next twenty years, we will lose

another 40,000 people, according to Statistics Canada. A Memorial University

economic professor said, `Every person we lose, we lose $3,000 in federal

transfers, for each person', and confirmed, I could say, by government - those

figures, government will confirm and I am sure the Minister of Finance will

agree. The Premier might not know about it, but I am sure the Minister of

Finance can confirm roughly $3,000 for each person in transfer payments is the

net effect. Therefore, 40,000 people over the next while will be $120 million

less in transfers into our Province.

I ask the Premier: Does this Province have a plan to deal

with this drastic decline and reduction in transfers that we are going to need

to pay for things like health care and for education? If he has a plan, will he

table it here in the House?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, yes, the government has a

plan for growing this economy. The government has a plan for seeing the economy

of Newfoundland and Labrador diversified, renewed and to the extent that it is

necessary, change. But for the Leader of the Opposition to stand up in this

House and suggest that he has just discovered that since 1992, since the

collapse of the fishery, people have left this Province, Mr. Speaker, is an

insult to the intelligence of the people of this Province.

Mr. Speaker, I am one of five brothers in my family. Four of

my brothers live outside of Newfoundland and Labrador because they have had to

go somewhere else to find employment. That is the reality of families

everywhere, and my family is no less touched by that reality than any other

family in Newfoundland and Labrador. Mr. Speaker, that will not be changed by

trite statements by an attempted partisanship and scoring political points, and

Mr. Speaker, the latest indicators suggest, that is not working very well for

the Leader of the Opposition. That will be changed by hard work and by a

comprehensive plan.

Now, Mr. Speaker, if the Leader of the Opposition will permit

me, or if the Speaker will permit me, I would like a moment or two to talk about

the plan.

Mr. Speaker, the plan begins by ensuring -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

In Question Period, the answers should be brief. If there is

a question that requires a lengthy answer, then it should be done under

Ministerial Statements.

MR. TULK: You want to know it now - you asked the

question.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the Premier to conclude his answer quickly.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, briefly, Newfoundland and

Labrador has to capture its full and fair share of the benefits of our own

resources. In the area of offshore oil and gas, that is what we are doing. In

the area of Voisey's Bay and mineral development, that is what we are doing. In

the area of Information Technology, bio-technology, tourism, we have to

diversify. That, Mr. Speaker, is what we are doing.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This Province has recently taken a chunk of money up front on

HST, of which we are using $127 million this year in the budget. We have taken a

chunk of money to use over three years on Term 29 - we are using $40 million

this year. So, that is $167 million that will not be there after 1999. I ask the

Premier, what is he doing to ensure that we are going to be able to make up for

that short-fall when the big chunk of money taken up front runs out?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, we are seeing growth in the

economy. It is not for me to stand up and second-guess all of the private sector

forecasters, but the reality is - and the Leader of the Opposition quotes an

economist - this government would prefer to set projections out that are

realistic, to achieve those objectives, and if in fact it is possible, to exceed

those objectives.

We do not repeat in the House, and I am reluctant to do so,

the forecast of everyone of the private sector banks in this country, the

forecast of the Conference Board of Canada and the forecast of the Atlantic

Provinces Economic Council, but all of those forecasters have said, that

Newfoundland and Labrador, over the next two or three years, in terms of GDP

growth, is going to lead the country - that is what they have said.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman opposite

is, I think, quoting Mr. Wade Locke of Memorial University, who recently said

publicly that he believes the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador is

deliberately underestimating the tremendous growth that he thinks is going to

happen. Well, Mr. Speaker, if you want to quote Mr. Locke quote him in total.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Speaker, it is hard to get confidence

when your own government predictions have been wrong every year except one in

the last eight years. It is kind of difficult then to have confidence in the

government's figures, I say to the Premier, very difficult.

I say to the Premier, your own government's Social Policy

Advisory Committee, stated that this Province has suffered a net loss of 20,000

young people. Now, those are people between the ages of twenty and thirty-four

since 1993. They have painted that dismal picture, your own report that was

tabled here, I say to the Premier. The report says that in the next twenty years

the under forty-five age group will drop from three-quarters to one-half of our

population. As this haemorrhaging worsens, I say to the Premier, and the

transfers decline, is the Premier able to tell us who is going to pay for health

care, services and care for our aging population?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition

complains that our forecasts have been wrong and his complaint - so that it is

very clear to the those who do not understand what he is saying - is that we

have been too cautious and I dread to say the word, too `conservative' in our

forecasts, because we have consistently out-performed the forecasts of the

Minister of Finance.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER TOBIN: The Minister of Finance is a prudent

captain on the economic ship of this Province, Mr. Speaker, and he is bringing

such strong leadership to the fiscal affairs of the Province that he manages to

out-perform his forecast each and every year. Mr. Speaker, the reality is, the

Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, in terms of growth, has had more modest

forecasts than every other private sector forecaster. So the Leader of the

Opposition's complaint, I take it, is that we are not as enthusiastic as all of

the private sector banks in this country, as enthusiastic as the Conference

Board of Canada, as enthusiastic as the Atlantic Provinces Economic Council and

as enthusiastic as his friend, Mr. Wade Locke, the financial advisor to the PC

Party of Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I charge this government with deliberately altering figures

to justify the cuts they are making to people in health care and education here

in this Province in their estimates. That is what is happening.

Now, at least the Premier's predecessor paid lip service, I

would say, to a concept of strategic economic planning that he reached for a few

minutes ago, even if the Economic Recovery Commission was a dismal failure. This

Administration is not even pretending to develop an economic strategy. They are

counting on the hopes of Voisey's Bay and offshore oil. They have no plan. What

does the Premier have to show for his twenty-two months in office that can give

people in rural Newfoundland and Labrador hope to cling to something here in the

future for this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, a few moments ago - and I

want those who are listening to this debate to reflect upon this - a few minutes

ago, the Leader of the Opposition was up saying that we were going to be in such

desperate financial shape, because of the numbers he was concocting and quoting,

Mr. Speaker, that Newfoundland would not be able to pay for health care, would

not be able to pay for education and we were near a state of financial collapse.

Now, I would ask people to check the record. Now, in the space of three lungfuls

of fresh air to think about it again, he is up saying that we are concocting a

worse financial state so that we can justify cuts in health care and education.

Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition cannot figure out if he is up or down,

in or out, but the leadership convention will answer all those questions.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Environment and Labour

read a statement. I challenge him today to answer the questions.

The Premier stated a couple of days ago, Mr. Speaker, that we

do not need a provincial oil spill emergency response plan. The minister stated

that as well, yesterday, because there is already a federal one in place.

Obviously, Mr. Speaker, the minister did not read the report of the Terra Nova

assessment panel. Is the minister aware of Recommendation 61, of that report,

which indicates that the panel recommends the Government of Newfoundland and

Labrador establish a coastal zone management plan for the Avalon Peninsula and

the west side of Placentia Bay? the exact recommendation, Mr. Speaker, that I

made only a couple of days ago, that the Premier made light of.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and

Labour.

MR LANGDON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As I said in the House the day before yesterday, we do have

an adequate plan in place and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, the

Department of Environment Canada and the Department of Environment and Labour

here have a plan that can adequately address any of the spills that might happen

along our coast and including Placentia Bay. In fact, the Department of

Fisheries and Oceans has prepared environmental sensitivity maps of Placentia

Bay using all available information to the GIS which is the Geographic

Information System. So, Mr. Speaker, we are prepared if an impending disaster

happens, we have all of the ducts lined up to make sure that our environment is

protected.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South, a

supplementary.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

So the minister is going to ignore the report I take it?

The minister said yesterday, Mr. Speaker, the work is already

done; he just stated the same thing again. I challenge him to answer the next

question.

The Terra Nova assessment panels say: That is not so. Can the

minister confirm that no action has been taken on the panel's recommendation No.

63, that the relationships between the relevant government departments during

oil-spill response situations be reviewed and clarified so that each

co-operating agency has a role that is clearly defined and clearly understood?

Again, Mr. Speaker, the recommendation I made only a couple of days ago.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and

Labour.

MR LANGDON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As I indicated in the answer to the previous question and in

answer the day before that, in case there is a spill, that the plans are in

place to make sure that the environment is protected and I want to assure the

House and the people of the Province, as we did yesterday, that the plan is in

place and in case of an impending emergency, then we can adequately protect the

environment.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South, a

supplementary.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In the minister's statement yesterday, if you may allow me -

The ECRC is capable of responding to a spill of up to 10,000 tons -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member knows that he cannot (inaudible).

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We are capable of responding to a spill of up to 7,000 tons,

Mr. Speaker, in seventy-two hours, far too long a period.

Mr. Speaker, the Exxon Valdez I say, had 117.000 ton

spill; the carriers going from the transshipment terminal, Mr. Speaker, are more

than three times that. Mr. Speaker, the minister said the equipment is here in

Newfoundland and ready to be used -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to get to his question.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I ask the minister and I challenge him to

answer this question, Mr. Speaker, because I have taken the time to speak to the

coast guard myself and while they say there are some resources here, Mr.

Speaker, I have asked them if there were enough equipment here in Newfoundland

to respond to three times the size of Exxon Valdez itself. They said:

They have the resources here, some of them -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I ask the minister: Based on the fact

that some of the resources might have to be called in from New Brunswick, some

of them from Nova Scotia, some of them from Quebec, in his statement yesterday,

some of them from the Great Lakes -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to get to his question.

MR. SPEAKER: - is this good enough for our Province, a

Province moving full-steam ahead into the international oil industry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour.

MR LANGDON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As I have said all along, we do have an adequate plan in

place to address an oil spill but, Mr. Speaker, if there is a tanker that is

going to come along our shores three times the size of the Exxon Valdez ,

and the spill up in the northern arctic, there is no way in the world that

anybody could prepare or have everything in place for that but, Mr. Speaker, I

just want to show you that Hibernia already have their plan in place in case

there is an emergency and the C-NOPB plan has been co-ordinated by the federal

government and co-ordinated by us, Mr. Speaker, there are plans in place and in

case there is a spill then we will be well-taken care of.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, in the last day-and-a-half or so, concerns with

respect to air quality have once again arisen in our schools in the Province. I

ask the minister and I will simply refer to my questions of two weeks ago,

regarding air quality in the schools, and the minister told us exactly two weeks

ago that there is no risk and nobody should be suggesting that students,

teachers, or other workers in the school system are at risk in any of our

buildings because it does not exist. The minister went on to say two weeks ago,

Mr. Speaker: There are no students, teachers or workers in our school system at

risk in Newfoundland and Labrador.

If this is the case, I ask the minister, why today are we

seeing the examples which are existing in Central Newfoundland where schools are

being shut down because of concerns with respect to air quality, namely fungus

and carbon dioxide?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A very serious issue,

and I appreciate the question and opportunity to address it in the House.

The unfortunate part again, and the point I was trying to get

across a couple of weeks ago with respect to questioning from the Opposition

education critic, was exactly that, that the members opposite would try to

suggest again today, now that there are students, teachers and workers in the

schools in this Province who are at risk in any of our 400 school buildings, and

we should be out there in some kind of a panic.

The fact of the matter is this. There was a study done some

two years ago. Some fifty-five schools were sampled. All of them were found to

be deficient on some of the criteria. The information - because the suggestion

two weeks ago from the Opposition was that we had done a report and we had

buried it and hid it away - was in the hands of the school board officials. They

had done further testing in schools -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

MR. GRIMES: - Mr. Speaker, like Buchans, and like

Bishop's Falls.

Members of the House might be interested to know that we are

very pleased, and I'm very pleased as the Minister, that the school board in

consultation with the parents, the school councils working very well in those

areas, have decided to err on the side of additional caution. Because the

studies that have been done, and the members might like to hear this, and the

further testing just recently, have indicated even in the case of Buchans, where

the presence of a fungus has since been detected in the most recent studies,

that the consultant who detected those fungi did not suggest that there was a

health risk for the students, and did not recommend the closure of the schools.

That is important to note.

But the parents and the school board themselves said, because

they couldn't determine a corrective action they might take between now and

Christmas, that to make sure of the safety of the students -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. GRIMES: - they would close the school from now to

Christmas, do some corrective measures, and hopefully -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. GRIMES: - have the students back in school -

MR. SPEAKER: I ask the hon. minister to conclude his

answer.

MR. GRIMES: - after Christmas. With respect to Bishop's

Falls, Mr. Speaker -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to conclude his answer quickly.

MR. GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker. With respect to Bishop's

Falls again, they had been doing some work. The corrective measures were

actually being taken in the school. The action being taken disturbed some fibres

in some insulation, which caused a problem that will be corrected by Monday of

next week.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St.

John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I say to the

minister that it is

an act of negligence that this report

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: - has not been tabled in this House of

Assembly. He claims it is a public document, yet he refuses to table it. He also

states that those individuals in the Province who ought to know do know. I say

to the minister that within the past week I have spoken with a director of a

school board in this Province who said quite categorically that neither he nor

his maintenance supervisor were notified of anything with respect to air

quality, and two schools in that district were assessed in that report.

The report also found, I am told, Mr. Speaker -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: - that none of the

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: - schools studied -

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member is on a supplementary. He

ought to get to his question.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: - had ventilation systems good enough to

meet the standards of the American Society of Heating, Refrigeration and

Air-Conditioning Engineers. I ask the minister, what is his response to that?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again, the saddest

part that I find in this is the approach again that the Opposition tries to take

with the issue.

The reality of the matter is exactly this. It is known to the

government and it is known to all ten of the school boards in this Province that

we have some deficiency with respect to air quality in the schools in

Newfoundland and Labrador. It might be again interesting for people to know -

and this is no reason for us not to do exactly what we are doing now, address

the most urgent issues by virtue, Mr. Speaker, of putting $2.5 million in the

budget in this fiscal year to deal with circumstances like Buchans, like

Bishop's Falls, and like other areas - when there is an identified risk of any

nature to the students, the teachers, and the other workers in the schools, the

school boards take the appropriate action - they should be applauded - of

vacating the buildings.

Two weeks ago there was no identified problem in any of the

schools. That was the correct answer. The students were in all of the schools.

Today they are out of two schools because there has been further testing done

and there has been further work that has been ongoing that has caused a problem.

Everybody is doing what is in the best interest of the

students, the teachers, and the other workers in the school.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Opposition House Leader on a point of order.

Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Education, I ask him to quickly

conclude his answer.

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, the point I was making is that

it is no excuse for us not to do what we are doing, because we are very active,

but this is an issue in every single jurisdiction in Canada. This is not unique

to Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to take his seat.

MR. GRIMES: If anybody had been hearing reports, they

would have heard of instances in other jurisdictions as well.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Despite the minister's rhetoric, the act of negligence

continues.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: He refuses to let the people of this

Province know what the reality is, what the truth is, with respect to the air

quality.

This study, I am told, has found that some of the schools

studied were experiencing peak carbon dioxide levels nine times in excess of the

acceptable limit. Can the minister tell us which schools are so identified?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again, for the members opposite, I really regret the approach

again that has been taken because I wish they would want to deal with the matter

in the interest of the students and the teachers and the workers in the school

system itself.

There has been no act of negligence by anybody either at the

government or within the school boards. A study was done two years ago. The

information was provided to the school boards a year-and-a-half ago. Now, where

there is any negligence in doing a report and providing it to the people who are

actually doing something about it... I understand that some of the leadership

candidates opposite want to get up and get on with some politicking. I was a

little disappointed -

MR. H. HODDER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Opposition House Leader on a point of order.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I just remind the minister of the requirements of Question

Period: Be relevant and be short. He is neither.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order. The Chair will determine when a

question has been asked, and the Chair will determine when a minister has

sufficient time to answer the question. There is no point of order.

The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The point again, in asking the question, the hon. member, two

weeks ago and again today, uses words like `negligence'. For anyone to suggest,

with any credibility, that a report that was done two years ago and was supplied

immediately to the people who are actually charged with the responsibility in

the system for looking at the welfare of the students, the teachers, and the

workers in the school, they have had the report for a year-and-a-half -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to finish his answer quickly.

MR. GRIMES: - they are actioning it. The fact of the

matter of what is happening in Buchans and Bishop's Falls today shows that the

system is working, not that there is any negligence.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to finish his answer.

MR. GRIMES: People are doing their job, and getting the

job done.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for St. John's West.

MS S. OSBORNE: Mr. Speaker, my questions today were to be

for the Minister of Human Resources and Development but now I will direct them

to the Premier, and you

preamble them nicely by saying there are no fish so you

cannot do anything about the out-migration.

In Black Tickle, exposed in The Globe and Mail on

Monday for all of Canada to see, was the situation in Black Tickle where the

waters are teeming with shrimp. These people don't want money; they just want

licenses and larger boats. There are only 230 of them, Mr. Premier, and probably

not significant to you. Do you have an out-migration plan for them as well or

are you going to give them the licenses for their boats?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I don't know how many visits

the Member for St. John's West has made to the Labrador Coast but she will know

that if she relies upon an opportunity to deal with people from Labrador

directly and not just from interviews and stories in the Globe and Mail

she will know and I should acknowledge by the way that -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the member, if the member had

an interest in the Coast of Labrador and had the time and I suggest if by some

chance there is an opportunity to travel the coast, will know that there is very

strong and able representation from the people themselves, from their own

organizations and most recently, I have to acknowledge the Member for L'Anse au

Clair has met with me directly on the situation in Black Tickle, has talked with

the Minister for Development and Rural Renewal on Black Tickle, has talked with

the Minister of Human Resources and Employment on Black Tickle, has talked with

the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs on Black Tickle, has talked

with the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture and indeed I am happy to tell the

member, who otherwise would not know until she reads it again in the Globe

and Mail what is going on in Labrador, that measures are being put in place

to put emergency response programs, employment programs in place -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The time for Oral Questions has elapsed.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to give a

detailed answer on Black Tickle, with leave.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Notices of Motion

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on

tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Public

Utilities Act".

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I give notice that I will on tomorrow introduce the following

private member's resolution, which, Mr. Speaker, is very timely, according to

the statements the Premier made today in Question Period.

WHEREAS the previous Administration used its power to

legislate against public sector collective agreements that included wage

increases and, in so doing, incurred the condemnation of the International

Labour Organization, and muddied the international reputation of the Government

of Newfoundland and Labrador for honouring its commitments and fairly

compensating its employees; and

WHEREAS the provincial public employees of Newfoundland and

Labrador, who have not had a raise in pay in about eight years, despite rises in

the cost of living, deserve fair and reasonable pay for the work they do; and

WHEREAS the Premier and his ministers are entering into a

period of collective bargaining with public employees and are doing so against a

backdrop of statements about economic growth projections and commitments to

allow civil servants to enjoy the benefits of revenue growth; and

WHEREAS it would only magnify the hurt of our public

employees and further damage our Province's reputation if the Premier and his

government were to break promises and signed collective agreements with public

employees;

THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that this hon. House urge the

Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to negotiate, in good faith, with

provincial public employees and to honour in full whatever commitments it makes

to its employees, including any commitments to provide its employees with long

overdue increase in wages.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and

Labour.

MR LANGDON: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on

tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bills entitled, "An Act To Amend

The Environmental Assessment Act", "An Act To Amend The Workers' Compensation

Act" and "An Act To Amend The Shops Closing Act".

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and

Employment.

MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, I was going to ask for your

leave. I missed the Orders of the Day for tabling reports and I would like to

table The Provincial Strategy Against Violence - Status Update. Do I have leave?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. minister - we are on notices,

can we revert to Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

Presenting Reports by

Standing and Special Committees

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and

Employment.

MS BETTNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I hereby table the Provincial Strategy Against Violence -

Status Update for December 5, 1997.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, Bill No. 31, The Professional Fish

Harvesters Act.

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The

Professional Fish Harvesters Act." (Bill No. 31)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and

Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Earlier this year, when we brought in the legislation on the

certification of professional fishermen, I deemed it to be one of the most

important pieces of legislation that we could bring into the fishing industry

today.

The fishing industry of the past has been an industry that

has carried on without the professional attitude that it should have and that it

deserves.

We brought in this legislation, and a certification board was

put in place, but in order to - and we put appeal boards in place; because once

it was identified as to who were professional fishermen, who were core fishermen

and who were not, the right for the appeal of those individuals who were not

deemed to be core, should be put in place.

We set up three appeal boards - two regional and one central

- and we hoped that before year-end, those boards would be in place and would be

hearing the cases of the individual fishermen who wanted to appear before the

board. However, time not being there to gather the information - and the boards

would have to gather the necessary information to identity all those people - we

have to extend the time limit by another six months. Their time was due to run

out at the end of this year, and that would not give them time over the winter

months to hear the appeals that we expect from the fishermen across the Province

of Newfoundland and Labrador.

So this is just a minor amendment asking for an additional

six months for the appeal boards to hear the appeals of the fishermen over the

winter months. Hopefully, by the end of the six-month period, the certification

board will be in place, all of the appeals will have been heard, and the

fishermen will be identified as to who are core fishermen and who are Level I

and Level II fishermen.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Just a question to the minister: Right now, is it eighteen

months minister? It is eighteen months now.

MR. EFFORD: Twelve.

MR. FITZGERALD: Is it twelve or eighteen?

MR. EFFORD: Eighteen.

MR. FITZGERALD: It is eighteen now and it is extended to

twenty-four? Okay.

Mr. Speaker, yes, this is basically a housekeeping bill and I

am sure there must have been - I do not know if the minister can inform the

house, how many people are appealing their designation by the fish harvesters

board. Maybe when he stands to close this particular bill - but there certainly

has been a lot of activity. I have had a lot of phone calls to my office

wondering where the Professional Fish Harvesters Certification Board was

located. A Mr. Smith is doing a great job there. He heads up that particular

board, and I must say, he has been very co-operative. Every time that I have

called the office, he has always gotten back to me, he has always made every

effort to look after requests and enquiries.

The piece of legislation was long overdue here in this

Province, because the fisherman trade is just as important and just as

professional as any other way of life here in this country.

Mr. Speaker, what I would like to see - and I know it is

beyond the minister's capabilities, because it is a federal matter, but I still

have a great problem with the core designation. And, to me, this is a way of

getting people out of the fishery; Mr. Anderson, the federal minister, has

already admitted that, in a piece of correspondence to me. In all the fishery

committee meetings and all the inshore fishermen's meetings that I have

attended, when problems with the core designation were brought up, it was always

stated by DFO that it was not their intent to bring in the core designation to

get people out of the fishery; it was not their intent to keep them from

accessing further licences.

But I say, Mr. Speaker, it is their intent, that is why the

core designation was brought in, and I personally do not see any need for it. I

do not see any need for a core designation now that we have the

professionalization of fishermen in this Province. If this particular board -

and it is a board that is constructed of, I think, the right people; fishermen

are represented, academics are represented, DFO is represented, the Provincial

Government is represented, the union is represented. I think the board is made

up of good people, and I think they will probably make the right decisions - I

believe they have made them up until now.

But, Mr. Speaker, this is something that I think should be

done away with; first it was SAC, then it was core, and what it is, is another

way to get people out of this industry. In essence, what government should be

doing is, instead of forcing people out by bringing in certain designations,

they should encourage the people to bring forward a program so that they can

exit this particular industry with pride and dignity, and I am talking about a

license buy-out and I am talking about an early retirement, not to force people

out because they have not been designated as core.

In many places around this Province, Mr. Speaker, where you

have had brothers or crew members sharing the same boat, sharing the same

fishing gear, getting up in the morning - I know of one particular family, two

brothers fishing together. They went and bought a boat between them, got their

own fishing gear, 50-50. They live next door to each other, get up in the

morning and get into the same truck owned by the enterprise and drive to the

wharf, get aboard the same boat, fish the same gear, make sales, and the money

is shared 50-50. One is designated as core and the other is non-core.

This is wrong. All they have done is look at whose name the

sales were made in, whose name the fish was receipted in, and this is the person

who was designated as a core fisherman, while the other brother, with equal

shares, with equal activity in this particular enterprise, has to go out now and

buy a core enterprise. He has to go out now and take his savings and buy an

enterprise because somebody up in Ottawa decided to sit down and write up a set

of rules and regulations whereby certain people would be designated as core and

certain people would not. If you were core you would be entitled to new

licences, you would be entitled to any extension of quotas. The other person, in

this case, a brother, was not entitled to anything.

When the minister gets up to close the debate, I would like

for him to touch very quickly, if he would, on provincial fish inspections. The

minister talks about quality, and I think he is right in talking about that. I

would like to know why we, ourselves, had to get into doing inspections. Was it

a situation whereby we lost control of the federal part of the inspections?

Because I would imagine, Minister, that this particular inspection was paid

totally by the Federal Government. Now, it seems, we are getting into doing

inspections and taking away some of that control. Maybe we needed to do it, and

if there is a justifiable argument for that, sobeit, then we should assume it.

Because if we are going to expect the fishery to return, and expect people in

this Province to once again earn a livelihood from this industry, then we

certainly have to put up a quality product.

When the minister talks about quality, you go right back to

thinking that in order to process a good-quality product, you have to land a

good-quality product. We had the minister over in Japan with his entourage, and

we have other people aboard that the minister has appointed, or a committee,

looking at crab prices. And I am certain that when the final report comes in,

the quality of the product we have produced here in this Province is certainly

going to be at the top of the list as a concern.

I ask the minister, how can you, on one hand, say to a

fisherman, you must land a quality product, and on the other hand say to the

same fisherman, you cannot use a thirty-five-foot boat or a thirty-four-foot

boat to go out and fish crab? That because you registered a twenty-foot boat,

then that is the one you must take your thirty-five or your seventy-five crab

pots in. That is the one you must go out and fish crab in, that is the one you

must land it in, not allowing any room - or much room, anyway, to take ice and

all the other necessary requirements that fishermen need. How silly a regulation

- to see the government of this country say to fishermen: You are only allowed

to go out and fish in a boat that you had registered to fish that particular

species.

Now, what they did last year - because there was enough

pressure put on the federal minister at the time, they were allowed to go out in

their big boat, but they had to tow their small boat out to the fishing grounds.

They could get in their big boat - jump into it at the wharf - go out to their

fishing ground, go out to where they had their pots set, tow out the small boat,

because that is the one they had registered, Mr. Speaker, and bring in the crab

in the small boat, once again, towing it in from the fishing ground with the

larger boat.

Mr. Speaker, those kinds of decisions do not make sense. The

crab fishery can offer many, many opportunities. I do not think that we have

even reached the potential that this particular industry has to offer, but we

have to get away from this silly way of doing things and we have to listen to

the fishermen. If we can accommodate them and make their trip to the fishing

grounds safer, allow them to land a better product and get a better price, then

that is what we should be doing, Mr. Speaker.

I think the minister is soon going to have to stand and make

a Ministerial Statement or issue a release on the fishery of the future. Here we

are, five years into a moratorium and nobody knows what the fishery of the

future is going to be like any more than they knew on that day, July 2, when

people were told to go home because there was no job for them, that there was a

moratorium on the Northern cod fishery in this Province.

Fishermen are demanding to know, Mr. Speaker, what that

fishery of the future is going to be like. They do not know who will be able to

fish. They do not know what they will be able to fish. They do not know what the

quotas are. They do not know what the gear type is going to be. Mr. Speaker,

those people have to know, the time is coming.

I think if we go out and listen to the fishermen, many of

them, Mr. Speaker, would be able to provide us with a lot of information on what

they would like to see done. Now is not the time for issuing licence fee

increases, I say to the minister opposite, now is not the time to have fishermen

paying, in some cases, up to 4,000 per cent more than they paid in previous

years.

MR. TULK: `Roger', CBC in this Province - I don't know

what's wrong with them. They are `some stunned'. They did not even mention you

this morning as one of the leadership candidates. They mentioned `Byrne' and

they mentioned `Shelley' and they said that the Liberals are saying that

(inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: No, they mentioned the right people.

Mr. Speaker, foreign fishing, I say to the minister opposite

- another problem by no way being resolved. I am after making three trips on a

surveillance plane out to the Nose and the Tail of the Grand Banks since I have

been sitting in this House, and each trip that I have made out there, I have

seen anywhere from eighteen to twenty-six foreign vessels raping the stocks on

the Nose and Tail of the Grand Banks. They are raping the stocks, Mr. Speaker,

while our own fishermen and our own fish plant workers sit here on this shore

waiting to go back to work, waiting for stocks to return, and that is not right.

That is not counting the forty or fifty vessels that are out on the Flemish Cap

fishing shrimp - not counting that at all.

So, Mr. Speaker, there is still an awful lot of fishing

activity out on the Nose and the Tail of the Grand Banks. The only reason why it

was reduced is not because of the arrest of the Estai and all the

wonderful things we did there. Simple economics is the reason why it was slowed

down, nothing less than that, Mr. Speaker. It was through pure economics.

When you see the people from Burgeo, Mr. Speaker, which up

until recently was almost an isolated community - now they have a road going in.

The only economic prospect there for employment is their fish plant. When you

see the people from Burgeo wanting to get a quota of argentine, so that they can

get their people back to work, I say to the member who represents that

particular district, when you hear those people go out begging for a quota, and

up until now they have been told no, there has been no quota given - they can

look out through their windows, from what I understand, and see foreign vessels

out fishing that same quota that this particular town needs in order to survive,

but up until now we have given them nothing.

I wonder if the minister can table, sometime in the House

here, or possibly provide it verbally, how much fish, how much cod - how much

groundfish I will put it, is caught by foreigners inside our 200-mile limit? And

I do not mean only cod; I mean turbot, flounder, halibut, blue fin, argentine,

pelagics, and provide that as well.

I can assure you that if you saw those figures, and you saw

the amount of product that some of our plants need in order to survive - that

would be one way of getting people back to work. It will frighten you to death,

I say to the minister opposite. If George Baker follows through on his

commitments, if he follows through with releasing the information that he says

he has acquired, it will frighten you to death to see the amount of fish that is

caught by foreigners inside - inside - our 200-mile limit. There will certainly

be many people out knocking on the Premier's door and saying: Why are you

allowing this to happen, Mr. Premier, when our people, our own communities, are

dying; our own people are having to leave this Province; our own people are

going to the Department of Social Services in order to access funding to feed

their families, and yet we allow those foreigners to come in and take fish right

from our own communities, right from almost under our own street lights.

It is wrong, Mr. Speaker. More attention has to be paid to

marketing, something that the minister should convince his own colleagues or

even his own department to -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Marketing, I say to the minister. When

you allow a fishery to take place in this Province.

MR. EFFORD: You're light-years behind the times.

MR. FITZGERALD: Well, you go and talk to the squid

fishermen down in my district and see if I am light-years behind the times. You

talk to them and see where their sheds are, and see what is in their sheds. Here

is a fishery that took place this year, fishermen got geared up and went through

the expense of buying equipment, equipping their boats, going out on the grounds

in all kinds of weather, getting squid, bringing it ashore for the family to

dry, hoping to have a few dollars for Christmas, hoping to be able to provide

for their families. Now they find themselves with their sheds full of dried

squid, with no markets; but this very same government has gone out and issued

licences for the same countries where we find our markets to come in here,

inside our 200-mile limit, and fish in excess of 80 million pounds of squid.

MR. EFFORD: That happened forty years ago. (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I say to the minister, it did not happen

forty years ago.

This is shameful, and if it happened, then this minister

should be trying to change it, because up until now there has been no problem

with people selling dried squid.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: There has been nothing compared to now, I

say to the minister.

There are buyers in my area this year who, if they cannot

move their squid, will go bankrupt. So what happens? Here we have the minister,

wanting to be the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture, but he puts her on

automatic pilot. He tells all about the things that should happen but makes no

effort to make it happen.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: You mean to tell me, Minister, that

people should have to go out and catch a product, go through the expense and go

through the effort of doing what they did, to find out there is no market?

Surely goodness, Mr. Minister, if you are going to go out on one hand and say

that we are going to take

part in a seal fishery, and the seal fishery should

provide whatever the market can withstand, then there is no reason why we cannot

do the same thing with other fisheries as well - no reason whatsoever.

There has been nothing done with the squid fishery, and that

was one fishery - and people in rural areas know - when the squid struck the

shores, people were going around with a smile on their faces. People were happy.

They were going out and spending their money, because not only was the fisherman

making a dollar, but the son, the daughter, the wife, the father, were all out

taking

part in this cottage business. That is what it was; it was a local

cottage business that provided great opportunities for rural Newfoundland and

Labrador. The minister has fish processors in his own district who have called

me, Mr. Speaker, who once took

part in this particular industry, and they are

not happy with what has taken place.

First, we have to have some form of quality control in the

squid fishery because there is no incentive there now to put up a good product.

Buyers go out and they pay the same price for squid no matter what condition it

is in. That has to change.

AN HON. MEMBER: That is not correct.

MR. FITZGERALD: That is correct. I say to the minister

that the only grading of squid is done after the buyer buys it. Granted, it is

graded before it gets to the market, but fishermen's squid is not graded in

their sheds.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) are so.

MR. FITZGERALD: They are not, I say to the minister. You

do not know what you are talking about. You can't tell me anything about squid,

I can guarantee you that right now. I spend as much time out in my district

talking to fishermen, taking

part in the fishery myself at one time, grew up in

it, made my living at it, I say to the minister, and this is one topic of which

I know what I am talking about. I can assure you that you got your information

wrong.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I beg your pardon?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: You got your information wrong. I

attended two meetings, Mr. Speaker, that the Standing Committee of the House of

Commons participated in here in this Province. One was down in Tors Cove, which

the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture and the Minister of Development and

Rural Renewal attended as well, and I attended another in Catalina. I tell you,

there are a lot of frustrated people out there, a lot of frustrated fishermen.

Somebody has to start listening, because those people want to get back to work.

They want to go back and do the things they normally did to earn a living.

They do not know who to trust anymore, they do not know who

to believe anymore. When somebody on the one hand tells them that there is no

fish, and they go out and they can probably catch fish such as they have never

ever witnessed before, three and four feet long, around the rocks, when you hear

people talking at government wharves...

Out where I live, my little community is not a fishing

community. There are a lot of small boats there. People have cabins, what we

call down in the bay. There is one government wharf there. Not a lot of people

use it, but most people anchor their boats in the little coves going up through.

When the water falls, for the most part, the boats are high and dry on the

beach, they are down on their side, because they are in the mud, I say to the

Member for Baie Verte. People can go out with their fishing rods in those boats

when the water rises and they have caught fish like that. Caught them and

released them. They do not keep them - never heard tell of it before, some of

the stories you hear.

The fishermen are not lying. The fishermen are telling the

truth, but obviously, we do not believe them. The only way to believe, I think,

what fish is out there - because the sentinel surveys have shown great signs of

fish. I mean, it was not uncommon for the sentinel survey to show anywhere from

20,000 to 35,000 pounds of codfish in traps in Bonavista this year. It was not

uncommon for people to go out and have to give up fisheries because the by-catch

was much too high. They could not fish lump, they could not fish herring. They

had to take up their turbot nets, black-backed nets, and everything else because

there is so much codfish there.

A few years ago, we were told we could not catch it because

it was too small. This year, we were told we could not catch it because it is

too big. Who do fishermen believe? I personally believe that the inshore fishery

should never have been closed. The inshore fishery could have survived. I do not

think, Mr. Speaker, it should ever have been closed. It was not decimating the

cod stocks. People, maybe, should have changed their ways, maybe we should have

done away with the gill nets and said to the people, from now on you are only

allowed to fish hook and line. Maybe we should have only allowed traps at a

certain time and required a certain size mesh so the small fish could escape. It

could have been done differently, but I do not think the inshore fishery should

have been closed. You would still have had a lot of people in this Province,

still going out and making a living to support their families and getting a high

price for their product because it would have been a good product, caught with

the hook, they would be baiting their fish grounds and it would do nothing to

hurt the particular stocks that we are talking about here today.

Mr. Speaker, the other thing that the minister might look at

is science. He should start listening to the real scientists; I believe that the

real scientists are the fishermen and the people that go out every day.

Get away, I say to the minister, the first thing he has to do

is stay away from the slipper captains, the slipper skippers they are called. Do

not be too wrapped up in the slipper skippers. You know who the slipper skippers

are, there are a few of them out there and you see them going around now - they

do not be going around with their lunch pail, you see some of those slipper

skippers going around with their briefcases. They want the transferable quotas.

They want to be able to control the fishery and decide who goes where. They sit

at home, Mr. Speaker, or sit in their offices. It should never be allowed to

happen. I say to the minister, my personal opinion is that scientists should be

at arms length from government.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Test fishery, Mr. Speaker, you hear a lot

of the fishermen now calling for a test fishery. I agree with that. I think if

we are going to get this industry open, if we are going to do it with the full

knowledge of knowing what is out there to catch, then it has to be done through

a test fishery. It has to be done by the fishermen, not this new survey - this

acoustic survey where they go out and they hire a boat and they plot out a grid

and they go from point A to point B and then from point C to point D, that does

not work, I say to the minister. You and I can get on the Campaign -

there will only be one of us probably come back - but we can get on the

Campaign and we can go out and try to get what fish we want and I would

imagine if you - when you were down in Bonavista - if you decided you were going

to get a fish for your supper table, then you probably would not know where to

go.

AN HON. MEMBER: What did you do with your donation from

the IFAW?

MR. FITZGERALD: You probably would not know where to go,

I say to the minister because some of those same people that we have taking

part

in those surveys today do it by, I suppose, information that is provided to them

from an office up in Ottawa or here in St. John's and say here is the area you

must survey, here is how you must do it. What you have to do is let the real

fishermen go out that know the real fishing ground, that know how to really fish

and let them tell you how much fish is out there. That is the only way we will

know. You have one group of people - you have thousands of people saying, there

is lots of fish and you have three people saying there is no fish. That is all I

have heard come out, and everybody else somewhere in between.

AN HON. MEMBER: Arn or narn?

MR. FITZGERALD: Arn or narn?

But it is a very serious happening here in this Province

today, Mr. Speaker. There are a lot of people out there, a lot of fishermen and

fish plant workers, that have told their story many, many times. I do not know

how more often people can be expected to come forward and tell their story, I

sometimes wonder. I suppose people have taken the approach that, the more we

tell it, maybe we will get somebody to listen, maybe we will get somebody, Mr.

Speaker, that will take what we say and try to take it to the powers that have

the capabilities of making the decisions and hopefully we can get this thing

back on track again.

Well, that is something that should be done, Mr. Speaker. We

should certainly allow a test fishery, especially in area 2J+3Kl, especially in

that particular area.

You know, I've never seen the spirits and the backs of

Newfoundlanders broken before like I did this summer when they took away the

right to go out and take

part in a food fishery. I've never seen the spirit of

Newfoundlanders broken before. The minister knows that as well, and any member

here in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. Never seen it, Mr. Speaker.

I attended some meetings with a group that went out to talk

and let people come forward and vent their frustrations. Everybody had the same

message, it was no different. No matter where you went, everybody was bringing

forward the same message, because of what they were seeing themselves. All those

people are not liars, I say to members opposite. Those people know the industry.

I don't know of any fisherman - I've never met one - who would want to go out

and destroy the stocks. I've never met a fisherman who would rather go and take

part in a food fishery if he thought that the stocks couldn't withstand the

activity that would be placed on it.

It wasn't the point of saying that Newfoundlanders are hungry

and they have to have a codfish for breakfast or they have to have a codfish for

dinner. It didn't have a lot to do with that, as important as that is, because

it was always part of our diet, always part of our culture, to be able to go and

do those things. People saw it as a right being taken from them. People saw it

as another erosion of one of their rights. That is why we live in rural

Newfoundland and Labrador. That is why when we leave this Province to go to

places like Alberta, British Columbia, Korea now and Japan and New Zealand, that

is why we only go temporarily, because we want to return to this Province. This

is the Province that we love. We could always go out and do things by using a

little bit of initiative, and with the sweat of our brow we could accomplish

things ourselves that other people in Canada are taking their lives to pay for.

People could go in and they could build their houses. They

could go in, cut their logs, extract their firewood. Not allowed to do that any

more. You could go out and jig a few fish. Not allowed to do that any more.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: The IFAW, I say to the member opposite,

no party should be taking gifts, whether it is gifts of money or whether it is

gifts in kind, nobody, Mr. Speaker, should be -

AN HON. MEMBER: Are you apologizing on behalf of the PC

Party?

MR. FITZGERALD: I am apologizing on behalf of nobody. I

wasn't part or party to it, I say to the minister, but by them accepting it, it

doesn't make it right. It is wrong, and they should never be allowed to accept,

right, no more than your party in Ottawa should be accepting donations from that

particular party.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I had a couple, I say to the minister,

but it wasn't anything to affect me.

Mr. Speaker, this is something we have to pay attention to.

While the minister stands up and brings in a house-keeping change, and that is

all it is - probably the change that he brought in doesn't warrant me taking the

time that I'm taking here this morning to talk about that particular change. It

is a good change, it is a good bill, but the minister has to start paying

attention to the fishermen out there. He is going out. The minister is

approachable. He is listening to people, but he has to start acting.

He has to start taking on his cousins up in Ottawa. That is

what the minister has to start doing. He can't go sitting around any more and

letting some of those decisions that are affecting this industry, that are

crucifying this industry, he can't just sit back now because he is the minister

of the Crown and because his Premier is in cahoots with the government up in

Ottawa. I suppose he is afraid to go against his leader. He can't go and accept

this as something that should happen, or should be allowed to happen. The

minister has to start speaking up, speaking out, as he is noted for. This is

what has to happen right here in this Province today.

I don't know if this particular industry is to soon give

answers, and if those particular people are not soon told or allowed to take

part, and some plan put together to show them they have a future, then I fear

what is going to happen in Newfoundland and Labrador. I fear what is going to

happen in my district. There are something like I think in excess of 5,000

people in my district right now either eligible for or receiving TAGS, and that

automatically puts them and makes a long-term attachment to the fishery by the

very fact that they are a part of this program and that is just in my district.

The Member for Twillingate - Fogo has the same thing and the member for the

Conception Bay communities has the same thing because most of our rural Province

was settled because of the fishery, and a lot of the people still took

part in

that particular enterprise.

Mr. Speaker, the boat's size is one thing and I do not know

why the government of the day would ever go out and tell a fisherman that he is

only allowed to have a certain size boat. I do not know, I mean, if you are

going to be a taxi-driver here in this Province, the City of St. John's does not

tell you that you have to drive a Volkswagen or you have to drive a Cadillac but

still, we have the government of this country, going out and saying to fishermen

that you are only allowed to have a certain size boat, and I do not think it is

any of the government's business if I am a fisherman and I want a bigger boat.

If I feel that my enterprise can support a larger boat, it is

none of the government's business. It is time for government to get off people's

back and out of people's pockets I say to members opposite. There is no reason

whatsoever that, somebody in a fifty-two-foot boat should be expected to go out

on the Nose and Tail of the Grand Banks, go out 200 miles offshore, put the

safety of their crew in jeopardy in the fall of the year to take

part in a

fishery. It is not healthy, it is not safe and one of those days we are going to

have a calamity through the actions of this government.

Many, many enterprise holders have said to me: Look, I am

willing to go out and buy a sixty-five-foot boat, I am willing to go out, I am

not looking for one dollar from government, I want to go out and I will buy it

myself; I am not looking for any licences, not looking for any extra quotas, all

I want is the right to use a bigger boat and, what is so wrong about that?

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I say to the minister, there is no point

in your going to a meeting because I know the way people leave you at meetings.

I know the way people leave you at meetings, so do the people a favour and send

your Deputy Minister, maybe they will get some answers, they do not need you

because they will get no answers.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: No boy, it is an important subject.

Then we have the minister, Mr. Speaker, saying that you have

to land a better product. Those boats are going out not able to take ice, not

able to take all their fishing gear but still the fear is there that they may

come looking for something and I have called the minister on this. I have called

the Minister of Fisheries in Ottawa and I said: Minister, I do not understand

the rationale behind those regulations, it does not make sense. The only answer

he could give me, the only answer that I was ever supplied was: If people get

bigger boats they will eventually come back looking for more licences. But I

said: those people are willing to sign a document, sign an affidavit that they

will not be looking for special treatment and they will not be using the fact

that you gave them or you allowed them I suppose, the freedom to go out and

purchase a bigger vessel, to come and say now that I must have this licence or I

must have this increase in quota in order to support my enterprise. They do not

want any of that.

So maybe, when we start talking about the fishery of the

future we might try to clear up and get away from some of those silly rules and

regulations that exist but serve nobody, and the minister must know because for

the most part, the minister is a common-sense minister, and he knows that some

of those things that I brought up here this morning are certainly some things

that I know he agrees with as well but, he has to start speaking out; he has to

start making a few trips to Ottawa and meeting with his federal cousins, telling

them the way it is here in this Province, telling them what fishermen want and

telling them the reason it is being done.

So I say to the minister, it is a good piece of legislation;

I think I have had one phone call with somebody complaining and I know that the

minister had the same call and I know that he answered the same piece of

correspondence along with the Speaker, and that was from an individual in the

Speaker's district. That was the only call that I have had to say that this was

not a good piece of legislation and I was quite upfront with the man and the

story in the local paper will say that and I do not think either one of us were

very far from sharing the same views.

Because this industry is in a crisis, we cannot go and give

everybody fishing licences, we can't allow everybody access to the industry, and

we have to start thinking about our neighbours, I suppose. If somebody has a

job, and if somebody is doing alright, whether they are a schoolteacher or

whether they are a politician, somebody else has to live as well. We cannot all

go out and have it all by ourselves.

I don't get any pleasure in getting up in the morning and

going to work and seeing my neighbour looking through the window with no work to

go to, with nowhere to go, people who worked all of their lives and supported

this government and other governments, and paid taxes, and paid their own way. I

don't get any privilege and I don't get any pleasure out of seeing that. You

cannot live in this world alone, and you cannot go through it alone. Those

people have to be listened to. They are going through very, very difficult

times. It is about time that we started supplying some answers.

I believe that if the minister and his department would work

in consultation with the fishermen and the fisherwomen, and the fish plant

workers out there in rural Newfoundland today, I think we can still have a very

vibrant fishery, but we have to start paying some common sense and bringing in

some rules and regulations that would support and help the industry and help

those involved, instead of doing it in isolation from the very same people whose

lives they are controlling.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I am not going to take a lot of time today, but I am going to

take a couple of minutes, I say to the minister, because, of course, my

district, my part of the Province, is very well affected by many parts of the

fishing industry. As a matter of fact, I just want to make a few comments on the

seal industry and, of course, even yesterday's paper, and talk about the real

oil industry in Newfoundland and Labrador when it comes to the seal oil.

Mr. Speaker, I am a firm believer and, of course, I have done

a lot of reading in this last year, or year-and-a-half, about the potential for

seal oil in this Province. Although the minister just brought attention to it

recently in the media and so on, the truth is that research on this has been

going on since 1987, and people are just starting to realize how beneficial seal

oil can be to the human body. That industry needs every avenue possible to go

forward, and do it quickly, because timing is essential now. If this industry

can take off, the sealing industry could be a major boost especially to rural

Newfoundland and Labrador. In my district itself, as we speak today, there is a

plant being built that is going to be looking into the seal industry, to the

hides, to the meat, but more importantly to the seal oil industry.

I can tell everybody in this House that they should read up

on what is happening with the seal oil industry, get in tune with it, because it

is nice to hear that it has taken off in Newfoundland and Labrador, and that

they cannot keep it in the drugstores and so on, but the truth is that it is

only a smidgen of what the potential is, because if this industry takes off and

connects with the Asian part of this country, then this is going to boom. That

is why we have to be four-square behind the seal industry and the quotas and so

on for this Province, because it could be the answer - or a big part of the

answer - to the revitalization of rural Newfoundland and Labrador. Especially,

of course, as I spoke about yesterday, not only is it going to create jobs and

do something positive for us, but at the same time, as we increase quotas, what

it will do is help us with the situation and the crisis in the fishery; so it is

real good timing for that.

The next point I want to raise is about the squid in the

Province. Now, a lot of people do not realize it; that small amount of squid

that is caught by people out in rural Newfoundland and Labrador is the last bit

of income they have for the year that will enable them to move on, at least to

qualify for unemployment insurance. That last bit of squid - as a matter of

fact, I mentioned it to the minister today, I have people in my district today,

who have called me as late as yesterday, who have 2,000 or 3,000 or 4,000 pounds

of dried squid that they went out and caught this year for which they could not

get markets.

Mr. Speaker, that does not sound like a lot, or does not

sound important to a lot of people but, believe me, for the person who is out

there now with 3,000 or 4,000 or 5,000 pounds of dried squid stowed away, and

are two, three or four weeks short of claiming for employment insurance, it

means a lot. It is almost taking a full, long race and not crossing the finish

line. That is the situation they are in. I would say to the minister, he said

that he may have some names of people to whom these people may be able to sell

their squid, I hope that he can provide me with those names after the House has

closed.

So that is something that the minister, as minister

responsible for Fisheries in this Province should look into for next year, to

make sure that quotas are not given to foreigners or the Japanese or whoever it

is, before Newfoundlanders and Labradorians can avail of selling squid or any

other species for that matter. People in this Province should be able to sell

our own resource before foreigners are given that chance. It really upsets a lot

of people to know that this year, the little bit of money they get from the

squid industry has fallen off because of the quotas given to the Japanese, Mr.

Speaker. That is not right and it should never happen in this Province.

The last point that I want to mention, Mr. Speaker, and my

colleague has already brought it up but maybe it is time for it, I don't know if

it is or not but the food fishery - I know we talked about it a lot this summer

- but next week, December 9, two individuals in this Province, eighty-one years

old - I won't mention their names because I did not ask them for permission

today but of course it was in the media a while ago - eighty-one years old and

seventy-eight years old, brothers, with over 100 years experience fishing. Not

as much as a traffic ticket in their lives, nothing. Law abiding people in this

Province. The eighty-one year old man was fishing on the Labrador since he was

nine years-old. I spoke to him on the phone, Mr. Speaker. They paid their dues

big time, I would say, to the fishing industry and to this Province and

sustained a living in the fishing industry.

AN HON. MEMBER: A prime example of a (inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: Unequivocally, Mr. Speaker, that these two

gentlemen, on December 9, will go into a courtroom to answer to charges and

probably be convicted of breaking the law. These people, eighty-one and

seventy-eight years old, with a combination of over 100 years experience on the

water, decided, Mr. Speaker - and they realized full well that, sobeit for this

day and age that they are going to be breaking the law but at the same time,

they say they believe they should have the right, especially when they know in a

small community that they live in, that the bay is full of fish and they can go

down and catch ten fish. So that's what they did. They went ahead and did it.

Mr. Speaker, I spoke to those two gentlemen on the phone

twice now. I am going to try to attempt to make their hearing in Badger's Quay

on December 9, where they will be probably charged and convicted of fishing

illegally. Mr. Speaker, those two gentlemen have said that they do not want to

pay fines. They are going to have to pay for this, if they are charged as being

criminals, they will go to jail for it.

Mr. Speaker, this is a case that everyone of us, as

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, should look at. I would think what those two

gentlemen are doing there is what a lot of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians felt

like this summer when they seen the bays full of fish, especially living in a

small community of ten or twenty people. What have we come to in this Province?

In my district, a small community of Round Harbour, I think the population there

now is twenty or twenty-five people. People come there during the summer, they

have retirement homes and so on but basically that is who live there.

A fisherman who is there, Mr. Speaker, I know him very well.

He fished all his life. He is in his early sixties now. He knew that Small

Harbour was full of fish. He knows that no police officers or fishing officers

come down around that area but, Mr. Speaker, he did not go down to get the fish,

like these two gentlemen decided to do. Mr. Speaker, it broke his heart to think

that here was the bay full of fish. There was nobody around who was going to

catch him but he knew he would have a guilty conscience if he went down to catch

and just go off - as a matter of fact, he told me that he did not even have to

go out in his boat. He could have done it right off the wharf and caught cod

fish. Mr. Speaker, he would not do it. He said I would feel like a criminal for

something I have been doing all my life.

Then, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture

stands up here and talks about the scientists. The scientists are the fishermen,

the people who have been telling them for years.

MR. FITZGERALD: Fishery officers are going around the

Province taking fishing rods from the children.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, that's true, I say to the Member for

Bonavista South. Imagine, fisheries officers crawling around the rocks and the

shores of this Province, Mr. Speaker, coming around the turns on the points

looking for kids out on the rocks fishing for cod fish. Now, Mr. Speaker, that's

important I know. That must be really important that the fisheries officers take

their time to crawl around the beaches of Newfoundland to make sure that

children are not fishing off the rocks and going to catch a cod fish. How silly

it is after getting, Mr. Speaker.

I went to Ottawa, I met with the federal Minister of

Fisheries. Of course he did not return any of my letters. He did not return any

of my phone calls. He did not believe in meeting with us but, Mr. Speaker, I

went to Ottawa and I waited in his office until he came out to speak with me.

The first message I wanted to give him on behalf of everybody who spoke to me

this summer, not just in my district, from all over this Province that talked to

me, they said give Mr. Anderson one quick message before you get into a

conversation with him. Let him know that we, as Newfoundlanders and

Labradorians, are insulted that he thinks that we don't respect the resource of

fishing in this Province. That we were insulted by that. That Mr. Anderson, not

that he is from British Columbia, wherever he is from, insulted us as

Newfoundlanders by thinking that we don't have the respect for the resource of

the fishery in this Province. We have full respect for it, Mr. Speaker.

I told Mr. Anderson this in no uncertain terms this summer.

That was the message that I was about to give him. These people and these

fishermen had a reason for saying they wanted to go out and jig a fish, because

the bays were full of them. The scientists are out to lunch, as far as I'm

concerned, and they have been out to lunch for a long time. Ten years ago they

were saying there was plenty so we fished it all, and they said: No, you were

wrong. Now they say there is no fish, but the fishermen are telling us they are

in the bays, and we should be able to go out and catch one.

The whole point of this, and I will finish with this, is we

have made a mountain out of a molehill on this whole issue. Yes, the commercial

fishery and going out and using draggers and trawl lines and all that is another

issue. What we are talking about is down in Round Harbour or out in Triton, a

man in the morning, on a nice sunny morning, catching ten fish on a line. The

hook-and-line never ruined the fishery of this Province. Never did and never

will. As a matter of fact, if it was open today it would never hurt it. A line

into water will never hurt it.

As a matter of fact, I was a little bit disappointed, but I

heard one person on an open line show one morning from Grand Falls saying: I

don't know what they are talking about. They aren't going to starve to death.

What is so important about it? Why don't they go to the market and get a few cod

fish? I know a lot of people in this House don't realize, and I could never

explain to them, what it is like for a man who fished for fifty or sixty years

to go out with his grandson in a boat on a nice morning in the bay and feel a

tug on a line, and the look on that little fellow's face. As a matter of fact,

the skipper who took us out last year, seventy-eight years old, the year before

when we were allowed to fish, he sat in the boat, didn't even fish himself. He

just wanted to be on the water and see a cod fish being caught.

That is what it is all about. It isn't about statistics and

scientists. That is all bull! That is propaganda. What it was was the big summit

down here in St. John's and the Premier and the minister and Mr. Anderson and

all of them making sure we put on a big show for the international community by

taking on those tough Newfoundlanders, the ones who want to go out fishing. We

are going to show those Newfoundlanders, that is what they were saying.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) taking on the crowd that

rocked the bus.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes. They are going to take on the crowd

that rocked the bus, Mr. Speaker, when the Prime Minister came here. The truth

is on the food fishery - and I'm going to go to that court case hopefully

December 9 with these two gentlemen and stand with them in support of every

Newfoundlander and Labradorian who says: We should have been able to go out and

jig a fish and eat, out of common decency, with a bit of dignity. That is what

it is all about.

This minister, this government and this Premier should be in

Ottawa next year and over the winter months saying it was unjust and criminal

what happened in this Province last year. If anybody in this House believes that

is forgotten, if you think that issue just passed us by and the people who

didn't catch a fish this summer are saying: That is okay, it is forgotten about,

I'm telling you, you are making a sorry mistake. Because people in this Province

- and they will mention it to me again Christmas when I go home. The fact that

they don't have the fish in their fridge that they should have had, the ten,

twenty or thirty fish.

By the way, the whole argument I had with Mr. Anderson, I

said: The truth is, sir, all you have done now is made criminals of people who

would have done it with a bit of dignity. Because the truth is, if you wanted to

save the amount of fish that was coming out of the water, if that was your

concern, the truth is that there are just as many fish being caught, or maybe

even more I would say, on the black market this past winter. Because every

community I can go around to you can get fish. The truth is, the only difference

what Mr. Anderson did was made them do it illegally. Instead of doing it legally

with a bit of dignity, they did it illegally. They have the fish, and the fish

came out of the water.

There are people offering people fish all over the place. If

you deny that you are out to lunch on it. There are all kinds. There are people

being caught every day on it. The truth is that the amount of fish that Mr.

Anderson was going to save from this great food fishery to save our fish stocks,

which is a big question in itself, is utter... nonsense. I don't know, I could

use worse words but I think the Speaker would call me to order. It is utter

nonsense.

Throughout the winter, and leading into next spring, for a

morale boost for this Province, go, get ready with an announcement to tell

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians: Go out and get your few fish, jig your fish.

You aren't the problem, you aren't going to hurt the fish stocks.

The shame of it all, and the last point I make on the food

fishery, is the scientists. Imagine, adding insult to injury. Going to bar off

half of Newfoundland so that you can go as far as St. Anthony or over on the

South Coast. What are they going to do, put a concrete wall in the water to tell

the fish when they come up to that boundary: Don't go to the Northern part of

Newfoundland? What utter nonsense! Every now and then, the minister in Ottawa

should remember when he is making his policies and regulations, there is

something he should add to his policies and regulations, and it is a word that

has been missing for a long time from a lot of his policies in Ottawa, it is

called common sense.

MR. J. BYRNE: Don't have it. Can't do it.

MR. SHELLEY: Imagine a scientist trying to tell a federal

minister and the Premier here that we are going to put boarders around

Newfoundland now. We are going to put a wall up or a net in the water and say,

fish when you come up to St. Anthony now, turn around and go back, because you

are not allowed to fish over there. What a load of ridiculous scientific

evidence, Mr. Speaker. If that is scientific evidence then we are in as bad a

shape now as we were years ago when they used to tells us there was lots of fish

around.

So, Mr. Speaker, I say to the minister here today, take heed

of it. The issue is not gone, it is not dead, it is not over. It is going to

come up again next year. And, Mr. Speaker, this member on this side of the House

and a lot of people around this Province will not be as quiet - and you can take

that as a warning, threat, I do not care how you take it - will not be as quiet

next spring and next summer if the minister here in this Province, along with

the federal minister of fisheries, stands up and says no food fishery again. You

had better have a lot more and better reasons to back it up this time, because

people will not settle for it. It is something that has hit the heart and soul

of Newfoundlanders and it should be listened to.

So, on this particular bill, I wanted to make sure that we

got those points out and that they will be driven home further as the year goes

on.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. J. BYRNE: What a speech!

MR. SPEAKER: If the minister speaks now he will close the

debate.

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries and

Aquaculture has had to go out on Her Majesty's business and has asked me if I

would close debate on this bill for him.

I think there was - I say to the Member for Baie Verte, I am

glad that the principle of this bill was not a huge principle because I do not

know what time we would have got out of here.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) see any legislation with huge

principles come across on the Order Paper in this sitting of the House.

MR. TULK: Now, Mr. Speaker, he is going to get me into it

again, I know I am going - yes, I am going to be after my member again in a

minute. I am going to be taking him on again and he is on this morning - CBC is

on this morning promoting him -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: Oh, I am sorry.

- promoting him as the top leadership contender over there.

AN HON. MEMBER: Who? John Efford for the Tory Party?

MR. TULK: No, no, the Member for Kilbride, my member over

there is being touted this morning by CBC as the top contender for the

leadership. Next in line, they believe, according to one, John Murphy, this

morning on CBC - next in line, they believe, in the caucus.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: No, I am going to get to you in a moment. Next

in line is the Member for Baie Verte. The Member for St. John's East did not

even get mentioned, and I was disappointed that the Member for Bonavista South,

who, I happen to believe is one of the best members in this House, did not get

mentioned, but I tell you what was even more striking, that the only way the

Member for Waterford Valley - the Opposition House Leader could get mentioned -

was John Murphy said, I hear from the Liberals that the Member for Waterford

Valley may also be interested. Then he went on to say that outside of the caucus

there were a number of contenders.

AN HON. MEMBER: Who were they? Doug Moores.

MR. TULK: They said a name that -

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: He is upset because he never got mentioned.

MR. J. BYRNE: I do not know what it is in the House, but

I certainly smell smoke or something burning here today.

MS S. OSBORNE: There is (inaudible). Really, this is

serious.

MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I say to the hon. gentleman that

if anything in this building is burning, including the hon. gentleman, we should

send somebody out to see what is happening. But the fire alarm has not gone and

I do not suppose we are in any eminent danger, but maybe we should send out the

Page to have security look and see what is happening.

In any case, Mr. Speaker, where was I? Yes, I was dealing

with the outside contenders - never got mentioned. I say to the Opposition House

Leader that the hon. gentleman from Cape St. Francis has the highest showing in

the polls when it comes to being an Opposition member, but being a good

Opposition member - what is wrong? What is making you so upset? We will try to

boost you up a bit. I cannot boost you up as a House Leader after what he did

yesterday. I mean, it was fantastic work that the Member for Baie Verte did

yesterday. I say to the Leader of the Opposition, he should move him over into

the chair, because not only would he eliminate somebody from the leadership

race, but once he moved him into that chair, he would be loyal to him. He would

not be like the present House Leader, saying: Well, I am here serving as a

support, as a pillar of strength, for the Leader of the Opposition, but in the

meantime, I am announcing that I might run for his job. I find it terrible.

Mr. Speaker, if I could get to this bill and talk about some

of the questions, the truth of the matter is -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: I cannot.

The truth of the matter is that what this bill addresses is

the extension for the professional fish harvesters appeal board from eighteen

months to twenty-four, so it can take care of some other people who have not yet

had the chance to appeal.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have to say to the hon.

gentleman that I agree with him a great deal about seals. I think seals have a

tremendous potential for rural development in this Province, and I can tell you

something - I mean, it is the most amazing piece of salesmanship, as the Member

for Bonavista South mentioned, that ever I have seen done in this Province. The

Minister of Fisheries appears on television -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: No, he appears on television, and he is talking

about - and he is a diabetic, and he does not mind my saying that. Everybody

knows that. He is a diabetic, and he is talking about the problems his diabetes

has caused for circulation, and he holds out a bottle of seal oil capsules. He

says: I have been taking two of those a day, and the truth of the matter is, the

problems with circulation are gone. It works.

We have had a run on seal oil capsules in this Province the

like of which has never been witnessed with any product in the history of this

Province. Everybody in Newfoundland and Labrador is lining up for seal oil

capsules, lining up for them everywhere in the Province. The drugstores cannot

keep them. I understand that is true, is it not it, I say to the Minister of

Fisheries?

MR. EFFORD: What?

MR. TULK: That drugstores cannot keep them on the

shelves.

MR. EFFORD: Cannot keep them on the shelves.

MR. TULK: They cannot keep them on the shelves. The

minister's office is flooded with calls from people thanking him for

advertising.

MR. EFFORD: `Beaton', we have had calls from Alberta and

Toronto.

MR. TULK: He is soon going to have to hire on somebody

over there to take care of the calls. There are calls coming in from Alberta.

There are calls coming in from Saskatchewan. Everybody in the country -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: Did you hear what he said?

MR. TULK: What?

MR. EFFORD: He said I am going to get defeated because of

that.

MR. TULK: Everybody in the country wants to take the seal

oil capsules.

Mr. Speaker, I think what we should do, and I would ask hon.

gentlemen opposite to think about this, is encourage a private company to set up

a factory to manufacture seal oil capsules, and the label should read `John's

Seal Oil Capsules'.

Mr. Speaker, I can tell you, as the Member for Baie Verte

said, I think the gentleman has started one of the biggest industries this

Province is going to see. And when it comes to the worth of a seal, just imagine

the worth of a seal in terms of seal oil. I believe that the worth of a mature

seal in terms of seal oil is somewhere in the vicinity of $3,000.

MR. EFFORD: $3,000 to $5,000.

MR. TULK: $3,000 to $5,000.

AN HON. MEMBER: That is oil alone.

MR. TULK: That is oil alone. Now, what a value to be put

on one of our natural resources.

I say to you, Mr. Speaker, that indeed, yesterday, in the

Lifestyles

section of The Evening Telegram , was an

article about - what

was the title of the article, I ask the Member for Baie Verte; he has it there.

AN HON. MEMBER: The Other Oil Industry.

MR. TULK: The Other Oil Industry.

I say to you, Mr. Speaker, this gentleman here

single-handedly, the Member for Port de Grave, the Minister of Fisheries and

Aquaculture, may have indeed started an industry in this Province greater than

anybody else in this Province has ever done.

Mr. Speaker, having said that, let me just say to hon.

gentlemen that this bill is a very simple housekeeping bill and I move second

reading.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Professional Fish

Harvesters Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the

Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 31).

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, there is a bill here in order to -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TULK: If I could, gentlemen? I think there is a bill

here, Mr. Speaker, that we need to get moved and passed through Committee and

through third reading, in order that people in this Province might be able to

get a cheque before Christmas, and I want to thank the Opposition House Leader

for saying: `alright, yes we would move into Committee of the Whole, do that

bill and at the end of Committee we would move back and do third reading and get

the bill through today so that we can get Royal Assent, and I understand that

since both sides are aware of what we are doing here, that there is no objection

to having the Clerk take the bill to the Lieutenant-Governor, have it signed

giving Royal Assent to it, and bring it back.

Mr. Speaker, I would move, after the gentleman has had his

say, that we move into Committee Whole.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On which bill?

MR. TULK: I will call the bill when we get there.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. H. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, we, on this side, understand

the circumstances. We would not want to object to passage of this bill today

through Committee and to third reading in order to facilitate ordinary

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians getting some money from the government Treasury

before Christmas. So we agree with the procedure that the Government House

Leader has outlined.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I move that this House resolve

itself into Committee of the Whole.

On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of

the Whole, on Bill 6, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.

Committee of the Whole

CHAIR (Mr. M. Penney): Order, please!

Order No. 10, "An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act", (Bill No.

6).

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. H. HODDER: Mr. Chairman, I have a few comments on the

bill and if I could, I would ask for the consent of the Government House Leader,

the critic, who is the Opposition Leader, was out of the House momentarily and

he wanted to be back in to be able to participate; he has now arrived, so we can

proceed. I do believe that the Leader of the Opposition will need to have a few

comments at a couple of stages here.

CHAIR: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Just very briefly, I had my comments mostly on second reading

so I will not delay things here. This is one that we support to give rebates

back - to amend the Income Tax Act, so that we can get that $40, I think, and

$60 respectively, depending on the number of dependants, out to people. We have

been on record from day one on the HST, that people with low income who have

been hit hard with the extra increase, the 15 per cent from 7 per cent on

heating fuels, electricity and other essential things, that the seniors have

very little disposable income. We have indicated that this government has not

gone nearly far enough. It is really only a pittance to an extent of what they

are doing when other provinces have decided that HST was not really conducive to

being able to maintain even some semblance of a standard of living by people in

their provinces and New Brunswick and Nova Scotia went far, far beyond that. So

we are the only province here - we are the Grinch now before Christmas. We are

going to do something that I supported, however little it is, I supported it but

it does not really address some of the fundamental problems that they are facing

because of government policy here in the adoption of HST. I won't delay things

any further and delay this bill. I know it's in a rush to get through and get

third reading, to get things ready and get some money in the hands of people

here before Christmas, hopefully.

CHAIR: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. H. HODDER: Maybe, Mr. Chairman, if I could just ask

one simple question and that is, if this bill receives assent today, when will

those cheques be able to be sent out?

MR. SULLIVAN: Are they being printed now?

MR. H. HODDER: Are they being printed now, in other

words?

MR. TULK: It has to be done by the (inaudible).

MR. H. HODDER: So therefore in passage today we will have

some assurance that these cheques will be out to ordinary -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: Are you going to leave the postage off

them?

MR. H. HODDER: So, Mr. Chairman, that is good news for

all of these people and as the Leader of the Opposition said, our only regret is

that the amounts are lower then we would have liked.

CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: If I could, Mr. Chairman, let me say to the

hon. gentleman, if we get third reading on this bill today, that rebate which

totals some $7.6 million for people in this Province, if we get this done today

I will assure him that it will be in the hands of people by Christmas. If it

helps him in any fashion, get his name into the leadership contest on the other

side, I will even - or him - take him out and see that they are delivered to

everybody so that he can try and get a few delegates to get his profile up.

Guaranteed, they will have them before Christmas.

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act." (Bill No. 6)

Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill

without amendment, carried.

MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Committee rise,

report progress and ask leave to sit again.

On motion, that the Committee rise, report progress and ask

leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): The hon. the Member for Lewisporte.

MR. PENNEY: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have

considered the matters to them referred, have directed me to report Bill No. 6

passed without amendment, and ask leave to sit again.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act," read

a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No.

6).

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me once again thank the

Opposition for their cooperation. I would now call Order No. 17, "An Act To

Amend The Provincial Parks Act." I had a substitute for that, and even the

substitute has left.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: It's terrible. Got all control gone. Mr.

Speaker, I wish I could let the hon. gentleman deal with it, to be honest with

you. I think I would move second reading. I called that but I don't think the

Speaker has yet called it.

MR. SPEAKER: Order No. 17?

MR. TULK: Order No. 17, Bill 35.

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The

Provincial Parks Act". (Bill No. 35)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)?

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, as I - no, I say to the hon.

gentleman that the minister had to run out to do some very important things for

the government. We have to keep moving the agenda forward in the Province. We

have -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: I wonder what is wrong with him. The truth is,

Mr. Speaker, we rec