Manitoba Hansard — 4 May 2009 (Sitting 35, 39th Legislature, 3rd Session)

39-3-35

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Ninth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LXI No. 35 - 1:30 p.m., Monday, May 4, 2009 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Ninth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park N.D.P. BLAIKIE, Bill, Hon. Elmwood N.D.P. BOROTSIK, Rick Brandon West P.C. BRAUN, Erna Rossmere N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. BRIESE, Stuart Ste. Rose P.C. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon.

Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. HOWARD, Jennifer Fort Rouge N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P.

MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MARCELINO, Flor Wellington N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PEDERSEN, Blaine Carman P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SARAN, Mohinder The Maples N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELBY, Erin Southdale N.D.P. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P.

STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WHITEHEAD, Frank The Pas N.D.P. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

1531 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, May 4, 2009 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYER ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Neepawa, Gladstone, Ste. Rose, McCreary– Family Doctors Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition. Access to a family doctor is vital to good primary health care. Patients depend on their family doctor for many things, including their routine health-care needs, preventative care and referrals for diagnostic tests and appointments with specialists.

Family doctors in Neepawa, Gladstone and Ste. Rose are unable to accept new patients. The nearby community of McCreary has not had a doctor available to take patients in months. Without a family doctor, residents of this large geographical area have no option but to look for a family doctor in communities as far away as Brandon and Winnipeg. Residents of these communities are suffering because of the provincial government's continuing failure to effectively addres s the shortage of doctors in rural Manitoba. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Minister of Health (Ms.

Oswald) to consider prioritizing the needs of these communities by ensuring they have access to a family doctor. To urge the Minister of Health to consider promptly increasing the use of nurse practitioners in these communities in order to improve access to quality health care. This petition is signed by Daniel Bertrand, Jennifer Sigurdson, Ken Ives and many, many other fine Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Seven Oaks Hospital–Emergency Services Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: The current Premier (M r. Doer) and the NDP government are reducing emergency services at the Seven Oaks Hospital. On October 6, 1995, the NDP introduced a matter of urgent public importance that stated that "the ordinary business of the House to be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely the threat to the health-care system posed by this government's plans to limit emergency services in the city of Winnipeg community hospitals." Mr.

Speaker, on December 6, 1995, when the then-PC government suggested it was going to reduce emergency services at the Seven Oaks Hospital, the NDP leader then asked Premier Gary Filmon to "reverse the horrible decisions of his government and his Minister of Health and reopen our community-based emergency wards." The NDP gave Manitobans the impression that they supported Seven Oaks Hospital having full emergency services seven days a week, 24 hours a day We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Premier of Manitoba consider how important it is to have the Seven Oaks Hospital provide full emergency services seven days a week, 24 hours a day.

This is signed by S. Pranhiso, H. Lacoff, A. Hubines and many, many other fine Manitobans. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Traffic Signal Installation–PTH 15 and Highway 206 Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

1532 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2009 These are the reasons for this petition: In August 2008, the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Lemieux) stated that traffic volumes at the intersection of PTH 15 and Highway 206 in Dugald exceeded those needed to warrant the installation of traffic signals. Every school day, up to a thousand students travel through this intersection in Dugald where the lack of traffic signals puts their safety at risk. Thousands of vehicles travel daily through this intersection in Dugald where the lack of traffic signals puts at risk the safety of these citizens.

In 2008, there was a 300 percent increase in accidents at this intersection. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Transportation consider the immediate installation of traffic signals at the intersection of PTH 15 and Highway 206 in Dugald. To request that the Minister of Transportation recognize the value of the lives and well-being of the students and citizens of Manitoba. Signed by Peter Kotyk, Margaret Galloway, Robert Galloway and many, many other Manitobans. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Housing): I'd like to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review, Department of Family Services and Housing. Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, I'd like to draw the attention of honourable members– An Honourable Member: Mr. Speaker– Mr. Speaker: Oh, tabling of reports? An Honourable Member: Mr. Speaker, tabling of reports. I'm asking leave to– Mr. Speaker: Okay, we'll revert to tabling of reports. Can we have the will of the House? An Honourable Member: My apologies, Mr. Speaker, I thought that– Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

Can I have the agreement of the House to revert to tabling of reports? Is there agreement? [Agreed] Hon. Nancy Allan (Min ister of Labour and Immigration): It's my privilege to table the Estimates for the 2009-2010 year for the Department of Labour and Immigration. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, I'd like to draw the attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us from River West Park School 17 grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Todd Johnson. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger).

Also in the public gallery we have from Kelvin High School 30 grade 9 students under the direction of Jerry Banner. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you all here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Provincial Debt Repayment Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, on Thursday afternoon, the government tabled a bill that allows it to get out of making any repayment on the Province's credit card bill for the next three years.

Only five weeks earlier, the provincial budget made reference to the potential for a two-year reduction in debt payments. Bill 30 is completely at odds with what the Finance Minister presented in the budget. The question, Mr. Speaker, is whether the Province's finances have deteriorated so much in five weeks that Bill 30 couldn't be consistent with the budget or whether the Finance Minister just got it wrong when he introduced the budget. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I would point out that the budget also includes a $120-million principal repayment, payments also on the other financing in the government of $136 million. It does include a $20-million debt repayment in the budget. We would note that we've repaid $944 million since we've been in office with the operating debt, and we continue to believe that in these challenging times most provinces are running deficits to invest in stimulus. The federal government has now called upon all provinces, rather than over the next five years, over

May 4, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1533 the next two years, to invest in infrastructure. We believe it makes good sense to invest in that infrastructure by reducing the debt payment–not eliminating the debt payment, reducing the debt payment–and investing in the water treatment plant in Selkirk, investing in the new modernization of the instrumentation system at the airport in Brandon, investing in many other projects, the lagoons in Winkler, water treatment in Steinbach, projects in Hanover. Members opposite can vote against it. We're going ahead, Mr. Speaker. * (13:40) Mr. McFadyen: Mr.

Speaker, the budget that was introduced made reference to a reduction in debt payments. That's something that we had some concern about, but what the bi ll did that came in last week was to eliminate the requirement to make debt payments for three years. This is at odds with what the Finance Minister said in the budget. He's giving himself a blank cheque to allow the debt to pile on faster than Manitobans can pay it off, Mr. Speaker.

At a time when many Manitobans approaching retirement are anxious about their ability to meet their own payment requirements, we have a provincial government piling on the credit card bill and now saying that they can't even make the minimum payment on that credit card bill. It's the equivalent of paying $100 on a $20,000 credit card bill, Mr. Speaker. Why can't they organize their finances in such a way to make the minimum payment on the Province's credit card debt? Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, the blank cheque that was in government before we were elected was the fact that the whole issue of pension liability was not on the books, was not accounted for. When you hired a public health nurse, when you hired a jail guard at Headingley–in fact, they even had virtual jail guards when we came into offi ce for the new expanded Headingley section–when you hired a highway worker, when you hired a person to be a conservation officer, when you hired somebody to be a water inspector, there was no pension payment, 7 percent. That started in the 1960s. We reversed that.

All new employees coming into government now have, on a go-forward basis, their pension paid for. We have gone even further than that, Mr. Speaker, and we have a payment for all civil servants and teachers. We also have a $20-million debt payment, a $128-million principal repayment. Yes, Mr. Speaker, we acknowledge that I think almost every jurisdiction in North America is running a deficit. We also acknowledge, under GAAP financial planning and budgeting, we're not running a deficit. Yes, we are reducing the payment on debt. Provinces are paying for their infrastructure. They're cancelling tax reductions.

We don't believe in that. We believe in having doctors, not debt payment. We believe in having nurses, not debt payment. We believe in having an increase in spending at universities, less of a debt payment. We believe in having stimulus with the federal government, not through deficit but by reducing some of our debt payment in this budget. This is one of the only balanced budgets in Canada right now. Members opposite want to vote against one of only two jurisdictions in North America that are dealing with finances in a balanced way. They're a bunch of negative nabobs. We're going to move forward, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, Manitobans know that it's not a balanced budget when you're running up the debt; you're taking money out of the savings account. That's not a balanced budget. That is a recipe for financial problems down the road. That's where this government is taking us, is down the path to more debt, to Manitobans having to work longer hours for lower pay, for pensioners having to pay higher taxes as they approach their retirement. That is what this financial recipe is creating for Manitobans.

I want to ask the Premier again: This is a relatively small amount of money, and they have made payments on the debt, but they've piled the debt on more quickly than they've paid it off. Now they're going to accelerate th at process, Mr. Speaker. How can they justify to Manitobans the inability to take one-half of 1 percent of the total budget and apply that to repaying debt for Manitobans, so they don't leave a legacy to the next generation and the generations thereafter of more debt, longer hours for less pay, fewer social services and a lower quality of living for all Manitobans? Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, the member opposite talks about fewer social services, and, again, these are

1534 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2009 kind of the statement of un true facts that the leader always puts on the record. And, don't forget, this is the person who was so brilliant that three years ago he said: In three years the government would have no money left in the rainy day fund. Well, we have over $600 million in this rainy day fund, Mr. Speaker. He was wrong then and he's wrong now.

The federal government has announced, in my view wisely so–the federal government that's running a deficit along with eight out of 10 provinces has announced that they're going to accelerate the Infrastructure Program as part of a stimulus package in Canada.

We have the choice right now in this Legislature to join in with the proposal in Hanover, the proposal in Steinbach, the proposal in Portage for the rec centre, the proposal in Selkirk for the water treatment plant, for the cross-Canada trails, and we have the ability to invest in doctors, nurses, justice, police officers and allow for our investment in infrastructure. We believe that the stim ulus package for Canada is sensible.

If members opposite want to go on a tirade against the federal- provincial Infrastructure Program, some quarter of a billion dollars announced last week, partially paid for by having more flexibility in our debt payment, let them do that. We are proud to go out and talk about Building Manitoba with the federal government, and we're proud that we're able to do it, unlike most provinces, by reducing some of the debt payment but not running a deficit. Most provinces are having this stimulus package tied to a deficit. We're not in Manitoba and we're proud of that, Mr. Speaker. Provincial Debt Repayment Mr.

Rick Borotsik (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, it now seems that the true NDP debt philosophy has been unveiled: borrow like there is no tomorrow and don't worry about paying back the debt today. This flies in the face of a recent handout from the minister's own office. The Manitoba Securities Commission distributed a handout that teaches children how to deal with their finances, and I quote: Children should be taught the difference between borrowing money and money that they earn or receive. When you lend a child money, explain that it will have to be paid back. Set your repayment

schedule and stick to it. Is this a classic case of do as I say, not as I do? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I'm glad the member takes the time to read the educational materials we've put out by the Manitoba Securities Commission, and it does actually say put money aside for a rainy day, which we have done. They had about $200-and-some million in the plan when we came into office, Mr. Speaker. We have $634 million in the plan now. And, by the way, we've exceeded the 5 percent targets set by the members opposite.

The other lessons for life in that plan are invest in education, something members voted against. The member said have a budget with goals, something the members voted against. Every single document, every single lesson in here is one being followed by the provincial government, investing in the future so there is more wealth for all the people of Manitoba. Mr. Borotsik: If he wants more wealth for all the people of Manitoba, perhaps he could cut the taxes, Mr. Speaker, which are the highest west of Québec. Did the minister not hear the message? Set up a repayment

schedule and stick with it. Don't change the rules on the fly. Don't take the easy way out. You borrow; you pay. This is an obvious message lost on the Finance Minister. Our debt has doubled over the last 10 years. The Finance Minister is addicted to debt. Will he promise Manitobans that he will seek help for his addiction? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, what I promise the people of Manitoba is an honest accounting of what's really going on, unlike the members opposite. Let's take, for example, the last five years. The assets have grown in this province by 48.5 percent. The debt has grown by 6.4 percent.

Every dollar we're investing is building $8 of wealth for the people of Manitoba. The members opposite always put a zero on government assets, so they can sell them off when they come into office. The reality is the members opposite talk about having a disciplined plan. Why did they ignore the pension liability for the 11 years they were in office? It went from $1.9 billion to $3 billion. They paid down the debt by selling off the telephone system, and they let the pension liability grow. We're dealing with it all, unlike you.

May 4, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1535 * (13:50) Mr. Borotsik: The net debt, Mr. Speaker, has doubled under this administration, doubled under this administration. Mr. Speaker, the Finance Minister used to–and I emphasize the term "used to"–take smug satisfaction in announcing his government paid off $900 million in debt over nine years. This in itself is wrong because every dollar that they paid down the debt, they borrowed $10 additional money. In this budget, he's gone from a debt repayment of $110 million to $20 million to zero, Mr. Speaker. Why is he continuing mortgaging our children's future?

Mr. Selinger: I invite the member to table his estimates on how he comes to his calculations because they're usually wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if they are again. Here's the reality. When we came into office, 13.2 cents of every dollar was dedicated to paying down the debt. We've reduced that to 6 cents on the dollar. It's been reduced by over 50 percent. The amount of money we're contributing towards debt repayment has shrunk because of the way we've handled the liabilities of the Province. We've increased the wealth of Manitobans. We've reduced the cost to Manitobans in doing it and, Mr.

Speaker, the wealth of Manitobans shows up in better schools, better hospitals, better roads, better sewer and water, better assets. We're educating the people of Manitoba and growing the economy in Manitoba. Manitobans' disposable income is up. Under you, it went down. Manitoba Hydro Bipole III Loan Mr. Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the Minister of Finance, who's also the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro, to put himself in the shoes of an ordinary Manitoban. The average Manitoban is facing questionable economic times. This Manitoban is looking at making a purchase.

In essence, he has two options: He can opt for a more reliable, less environmentally damaging and least costly option, or he can choose to run up his credit card debt even higher with a less reliable, more environmentally damaging and much more expensive option. Mr. Speaker, how can this minister justify borrowing an extra $650 million for a west-side line to the people of Manitoba when he can't even balance his own credit card payments now? Hon. Greg Selinger (Min ister charged with the administration of Th e Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr.

Speaker, the debt-to-equity ratio in Manitoba Hydro is the best it's been in over 30 years. The bipole which was recommended to the previous government after the 1997 almost near disaster when the bipoles almost went down, the bipole that was recommended was never built by the members opposite. We are building it now and we are building it in such a way that we do not put $20 billion of export revenue at risk. Manitobans want to know that we're prudent when we build up increased reliability, less risk to export revenues. That is the smart way to go.

The members opposite want to roll the dice with Manitoba Hydro's export profits. Mr. Cullen: Well, Mr. Speaker, if this minister and this government do not want to stand up to Robert Kennedy Jr., maybe they should get out of the road and let somebody get at this job who wants to represent all Manitobans. Mr. Speaker, Manitobans are seeing a proliferation of Manitoba Hydro advertising lately. They've taken out full-page ads in community newspapers. They've got a four-pager here in the Free Press this past weekend.

Now, it seems every time we see this government in conflict with Manitobans over one of their decisions, we see the spin doctors working overtime. This is clearly political spin from the NDP government to justify their west-side decision. How can the minister justify to Manitobans using our Crown corporation, which has a monopoly on hydro sales in Manitoba, spending thousands of dollars on his political spin when he can't even pay his own debts off? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, every Crown corporation in Manitoba, like every corporation in Manitoba, puts out the story about how well they're doing.

Manitoba Hydro is simply telling people how they're increasing reliability; how they're planning for the future by building Wuskwatim; how they're planning for the future by working towards Keeyask, which is another $5-billion investment; how they're planning for the future by moving forward on Conawapa, which is power for which there are term

1536 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2009 sheets; customers have said they would like to buy that power in the midwest American marketplace. Manitoba Hydro is just telling the truth about how there's a prosperous future for Manitoba by developing Manitoba Hydro instead of mothballing it. Mr. Cullen: The minister here is still going to have to borrow an extra $650 million for a west-side line. I have to remind the Minister of Finance and the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro that Manitoba's debt is higher than the provinces of Saskatchewan, Alberta and B.C. combined.

Bill 30, just introduced, will effectively eliminate any payments to the debt over the next three years. How can this minister justify to Manitobans running up our credit card debt by an additional $650 million when he can't even make his minimum credit card payments now? Mr. Selinger: I know the members like to persist in putting misinformation on the record. The net debt of British Columbia alone is more than two and a half times the net debt of Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, in this budget, our debt management strategy has the following elements: It has $136 million to pay the employers' contributions for teachers' pension plans and civil servant pension plans. That never existed when members opposite were in office. It has another $20 million for debt repayment. That's $156 million. That is $2 of debt and pension paydown for every dollar they had when they were in office. We're doing double the effort to reduce pension and debt liabilities than members opposite did, and that's before we get to $135 million of amortization. There's more good news if I get– Mr.

Speaker: Order. Provincial Debt Repayment Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Well, there's plenty more questions on this, Mr. Speaker. Only an NDP government would be proud of the fact that Manitoba's debt is now higher than B.C., Alberta and Saskatchewan together. Most people would see this as a prime opportunity to start reducing the debt, not the NDP's way of increasing it. In fact, the NDP has a bill before this House, Bill 30, that would give this government permission not to have to make minimum debt payments. This year the government spent more than $231,000 advertising their own budget, Mr. Speaker.

Why didn't they put this money towards paying down the debt? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Perhaps the members could answer themselves the same question at a time when they were paying over 13 cents on the dollar for the debt they had and advertising for their budget that was larger than the advertising we've got this year, and that was 10 years ago. They spent more when they had less to spend. We're spending a modest amount to let people know what's in the budget so we can get the facts out to them. Mr.

Speaker, as I said earlier, the other element of our debt retirement or debt management strategy: $128 million for principal repayments to school divisions, health authorities and other levels of government; $135 million for amortization; $136 million for the second year in the last 45 years of paying the employers' pension contributions and $20 million for debt repayment; a total of $417 million of debt management and fiscal discipline. Compare that to their $75 million, Mr. Speaker. By any measure, we're exceeding the effort they ever made on the best day of the best year when they were in government. Mrs.

Stefanson: In Bill 30, the NDP government plans to legislate that it's no longer necessary for them to make the minimum debt payments previously required under balanced budget legislation. Rather than spend this $231,000 promoting their budget, why didn't they just pay down the debt? Mr. Selinger: We've got a debt management strategy for $417 million. Our fiscal stimulus plan, the additional $625 million of infrastructure spending, will generate 10,000 person years of employment in Manitoba. Employment is where a recession starts for somebody. If they lose their job, that's when the recession starts.

We will provide 10,000 person years of additional employment in Manitoba. Manitobans told us that was their priority. We have one of the lowest unemployment rates in the country. We intend to keep it that way while you, hypothetically, would pay down the debt. Bully for you. Mrs. Stefanson: Manitobans know that if they don't make at least their minimum payment on their credit

May 4, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1537 card, they will be penalized. Rather than this government being penalized for not making their minimum debt payment, they have decided to pass a law giving them permission not to have to make this payment. It's irresponsible, Mr. Speaker, and it sends a terrible message to hardworking Manitobans. Mr. Speaker, it's no secret to Manitobans that this government has a severe spending problem.

Instead of wasting money on needless things like the government advertising that they spent $231,000 on in their budget, why didn't they just put this money towards paying down the debt? * (14:00) Mr. Selinger: Manitobans will be pleased to know that the cost of servicing our debt is 6 cents on the dollar versus 13.2 cents on the dollar when they were in office. They will be pleased to know that the net debt in Manitoba as a percentage of our economy has gone down by over 25 percent. They will be pleased to know that. The bond rating agencies were pleased to know that.

That's why we had five credit-rating upgrades. Five credit-rating upgrad es, a halving of the cost of the debt and a 49 percen t increase in the wealth of Manitobans: Those are all good numbers. Any objective analysis will show that we're doing very well. Only the members opposite hide in their ideological clouds. Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Cost of Enhanced Driver's Licences Mr. Cliff Graydon (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, the minister apparently doesn't realize that you can't borrow your way out of debt.

Would it not be prudent to take the $13 million allocated for the enhancement driver's licence that no one wants and pay down a portion of the exorbitant debt that we're carrying today? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Mr. Speaker, I seem to recall in this Chamber when we passed the bill for the enhanced driver's licence, the members on the opposite side voted in favour of having this enhanced driver's licence.

Now they're saying you're wasting money on an enhanced driver 's licence even though British Columbia, Ontario, Québec and other provinces are doing this. You know, it's one thing to be ideologically driven, Mr. Speaker; it's another thing to change your mind within months based on some political consideration. Mr. Graydon: Mr. Speaker, the minister has put some things on the record that aren't true. We didn't vote for the bill. We also know that Manitobans no longer enjoy the lowest rate for auto insurance while vehicle registrations ranked the highest in the country.

Can the minister tell the House today that he is prepared to scrap the enhanced ID cards as Saskatchewan did and pay down the debt? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, members opposite reminded me they didn't vote at all on that particular bill, so that really confuses matters. I spoke with the minister responsible in Saskatchewan, Mr. Speaker, and the reason that Saskatchewan did not go forward with their enhanced driver's licence were concerns from the privacy commissioner, and they recommended that, as the privacy commissioner recommended, they follow the Manitoba model in introducing an enhanced driver's licence.

So, you know, revisionist history, Mr. Speaker, doesn't last very long out of the mouths of members opposite. Mr. Graydon: Mr. Speaker, he can have all the discussions he wants with the minister from Saskatchewan. He understands dollars and cents, and it just wasn't working. Manitobans are frustrated by being overcharged for insurance, vehicle registration and by the complete mismanagement of this corporation that is highlighted by the costly mistakes on the licences and the introduction of the enhanced ID cards.

When will the minister do the right thing, scrap its legacy programs and pay down the debt so that all Manitobans can benefit? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the members opposite make it very clear what their view is of Crown corporations. MTS they pr ivatized. Hydro, they'd love to privatize. Every single move that MPI makes the members opposite criticize. Even though MPI has the lowest insurance rate or the second lowest in all of North America, they're against it.

Even though 90 cents or 80 cents on the dollar is spent in Manitoba by an insurance company rather than going offshore to their big corporate friends, they vote against it.

1538 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2009 It's very clear. They hate Crown corporations. They privatized MTS. They'd do the same thing to Hydro and MPI if they ever got their hands on it. Manitobans do not like that kind of ideological extremism, Mr. Speaker. Provincial Debt Repayment Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): I don't know where that rant came from, Mr.

Speaker, but Manitobans would have a lot more sympathy for the government's position today if they hadn't spent the la st 10 years, the good years, building up the Province's debt during good times, so now we stand in the position today with a record level of debt, $20,000 for every Manitoban on the credit card, with a minimum repayment requirement, which wasn't high enough as it was, of $100 for every Manitoban. Now they say they can't even make the minimum repayment, Mr.

Speaker, millions of dollars of waste and mismanagement with a hydro line to nowhere, the MPI licence boondoggle–even those that are spelled correctly are being mishandled. Mr. Speaker, will the government and the Finance Minister acknowledge that it's irresponsible, in light of the massive debt that Manitoba has today, larger than that of Saskatchewan and Alberta and B.C. combined, to continue to pile the debt on top of Manitobans more quickly than they can pay it off? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I would point out in the rant of the Leader of the Opposition that–and there are many items he's raised, so just let me deal with one, Hydro. Hydro's debt was 86 percent debt-equity ratio when he was the chief of staff for former Premier Filmon. It also did not include the purchase of the gas company. It was off the books. And there was another $450 million that the Auditor General identified of Hydro capital that was not on the books. In fact, the Auditor General had to put a reserve note in on the Tory books because of this issue.

The Auditor General also had to comment that because they were not introduc ing proper accounting procedures under the former balanced budget legislation, that it did not include any of the liability for pensions. So, Mr. Speaker, let me just deal with one issue. The debt-equity ratio has gone down from 86 percent to 75 percent. Not only has it gone down, all of the issues of capital debt are on the books. When the Tories were in office, it was underneath the table. Mr.

McFadyen: However much the self-appointed historian for the 1990s continues to put out historical fiction about the 1990s, it doesn't change the fact that the debt of Manitoba today is higher than it has ever been, $20,000 for every individual. There was a minimum repayment requirement that was passed six months ago, Mr. Speaker, in Bill 38. Six months ago, the minimum repayment was there. The budget came in five weeks ago, and now they've changed their position even in the past five weeks. Mr.

Speaker, how can they justify creating a situation where even if they get to their level of $20 million a year, it's going to take over 500 years and six generations of Manitobans to pay off the debt at the rate they're going? Mr. Doer: Well, Mr. Speaker, if you take an issue of pension liability and, No. 1, don't have it on the books and, No. 2, don't pay a nickel down, it wouldn't even be 500 years; it would be ad infinitum in terms of paying down the debt. The parallel lines would meet in infinity under the Tories. So, this is, of course, the way they approach it.

So then when you don't pay a nickel down and you don't have it on the books, when somebody else comes into office, actually starts paying down the liability and actually puts it on the books, the Tories then feign indignation about the actual situation in Manitoba. It would be brilliant, Mr. Speaker, I suppose, to carry on th e same practice as the members opposite: Don't pay a nickel down on liability, don't admit there's any liability on pensions and actually have it underneath the table and have a second set of books. There's no question, Mr.

Speaker, that paying down the liability and admitting there's a liability and putting it on the books does give a fuller picture to all Manitobans and to all people dealing with finances. That's why, Mr. Speaker, we have received four– one, two, three, four–credit upgrades from 1999 because we are much more honest in dealing with the finances than any member opposite. Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, up until a couple of months ago, the Finance Minister was saying they had six credit upgrades. He just said five, and now the Premier's downgraded it to four. I don't know

May 4, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1539 what's happening to the credit upgrades, but I think Manitobans recognize th at the credit-rating companies that he's referring to are the same people that were giving double-A credit ratings to Lehman Brothers up until a few weeks before they went bankrupt. The credit-rating agencies have no credibility. They know that and that's why we have the problems we have today. Mr. Speaker, we have creative financing techniques that haven't even yet been invented according to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) in Estimates last week.

We have a debt that's reached record levels, and we have, today, a situation where now the government is saying they can't even make the minimum repayment on the Province's credit card debt. I want to ask the government how they can justify a situation where the relatively small amount, $100 for every Manitoban, is unaffordable to this government when they have money for a hydro line to nowhere. * (14:10) Mr. Doer: Well, Mr. Speaker, the members opposite mothballing hydro, they didn't build a transmission line that was recommended. They cancelled Limestone and, of course, we built it.

They cancelled Conawapa and, now, we're proceeding with further hydro expansions. We know the extreme agenda of members opposite is to denigrate the Crown corporations and then get ready to sell them. That's what we know it is. That's the agenda of th e extremists opposite. First they'll sell Hydro and then they'll sell every river in Manitoba. They'll sell the rivers in this province, Mr. Speaker. They'll sell us down the river like they did in the past. Mr. Speaker, eight provinces in Canada and some of the other governments in this country are running deficits. They don't want to run deficits.

This Province, under GAAP financial budgeting, is running a surplus. All provinces in Canada have agreed to work with the federal government on a stimulus package. Most provinces are paying for that stimulus package with deficit financing. We are not. We are paying for the stimulus package with a reduced debt payment, but we are still balancing the budget. Now, Mr. Speaker, I ap ologize for being a little more modest than the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger). He is absolutely correct; it was six credit upgrades. I always want to be careful, but I would point out that we are investing in infrastructure.

The infrast ructure is advanced. The federal government is investing in infrastructure through deficit financing. That's the choice they're making. I actually think, in these tough times in Canada, they're making the right choice. Thankfully, because of our prudent budgeting system, we are able to now run a stimulus package without running a deficit. Yes, we've reduced the debt payment, but we are still only one of two provinces in Canada running a surplus budget.

When are members opposite going to realize they're on cloud cuckoo land and get with the agenda and vote with one of only two budgets in Canada that are actually balanced? When are they going to get onboard, Mr. Speaker? Influenza A (H1N1) Preventative Measures Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Health: Laurie Garrett, an international authority on infectious disease pandemics, has emphasized the major difference between SARS and the H1N1 influenza virus. SARS is almost exclusively only contagious when people are actually running fevers.

In contrast, with the H1N1 influenza flu people can be very infectious for 24 hours when they have absolutely no symptoms at all, before they develop symptoms. Why is the Minister of Health disregarding the ability of people with no symptoms at all to spread the H1N1 flu? Why is the government saying it is impracticable, as they did last week, for people who come from Mexico to stay away from large groups of Manitobans for five days until we know that they are not infectious? Hon.

Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): As I've said in this House before and will say again for all Manitobans, we are taking our advice from our Chief Provincial Public Health Officer, Dr. Kettner, who, of course, is in active consultation with chief medical officers across the nation and, of course, is connected on an international stage as we follow the H1N1 flu.

I can inform the member that the doctor did say last week, it doesn't seem reasonable to me and it doesn't seem reasonable to every chief medical officer of health across this country to do what the member opposite was recommending concerning quarantine. Those containment strategies are not

1540 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2009 practical and, certainly, under these circumstances, no one is recommending them except perhaps the Member for River Heights. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, and yet the sort of approach that I've suggested, staying away from large groups, schools, staying away from hog barns– people have been very surprised at how easy this H1N1 flu can spread from people to hogs as we've seen in Alberta. Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister of Agriculture (Ms.

Wowchuk) why she failed to bring such a measure asking people to stay away from hog barns for five days after they had come from Mexico or the site of a major outbreak. Is the Minister of Agriculture going to stand up, and why did the minister not be ready to guarantee and work with Manitoba Pork to do their best to guarantee that hogs in Manitoba will not be infected with this virus? Ms. Oswald: I'll say again that our Chief Provincial Public Health Officer is giving advice to Manitobans concerning contracting H1N1.

He's offering prudent advice that he's not giving in isolation but in concert with the chief medical offi cers of health across the nation and the Public Health Agency of Canada. We know, of course, that our chief veterinary officer, indeed in concert with ministers of Agriculture, is sending very strong messages so as not to fearmonger on the issue of eating pork, which is very safe, Mr. Speaker. I have to say that the member opposite is starting to sound a little bit like Joe Biden in the United States and a lot like China in his approach, which is not being embraced across the nation as the prudent way to go.

Nor'West Co-op Community Health Centre New Facility Request Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, back in April 2007 the government issued a press release, and it was just weeks prior to an actual election call, I understand, in which the headline was "Province to invest more than $2 million in a health service centre in northwest Winnipeg." They're talking about Nor'West Health. In fact, at the end of the press release it states, final site selection for the Access Nor' West is expected later this year. Mr. Speaker, like ending hallway medicine, those commitments were flushed down the toilet.

My question for the Minister of Health: Does this government have any intentions whatsoever to materialize on the promise of delivering a new facility for Nor'West in northwest Winnipeg? Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): Yes. Building Canada Fund Project Announcements Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): As members know, our government believes in investing in rural Manitoba. In fact, just last Friday, Mr. Speaker, I joined the Premier (Mr.

Do er) and the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation and others to announce the three levels of government will be joining forces to announce infrastructure projects worth close to $250 million including a $9.7-million upgrade to the Selkirk water treatment plant. My question to the minister is: Will he offer more details to the House regarding this announcement and explain how these projects will boost the rural economy? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation): Mr.

Speaker, we're pleased to partner with the federal government and various municipal governments on the Building Canada Fund which will provide economic stimulus for rural Manitoba and continue building well into the future. Then, when we take a look, Mr. Speaker–the opposition taking cheap shots at the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Selinger) and other comments with regard to the Building Canada Fund–constituencies like Steinbach, Arthur-Virden, Lakeside, Brandon, Springfield, Turtle Mountain, Morris, Pembina, all of these constituencies of members opposite have many, many infrastructure projects right in their own backyard. Mr. Speaker, this government is committed to building Manitoba. With this announcement, we'll continue to do so well into the future. Hog Industry Economic Challenges Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, the H1N1 situation is having a negative economic impact on the pork industry.

Countries like China are placing import restrictions on pork from parts of Canada even though this is not a food safety issue. Markets are falling, hurting Manitoba pork producers. This is a severe blow at a time when our producers are trying to recover from a prolonged

May 4, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1541 period of low prices, high input costs and the effects of country-of-origin. Mr. Speaker, could the Minister of Agriculture please advise this House with an update and an economic impact study on the H1 situation and the economic package that's going to be put in place to save our industry here in Manitoba. Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): Mr.

Speaker, I want to assure the members opposite that the staff in Manitoba, the chief veterina rian officer, is working very closely with CFIA, working very closely with others to ensure that the information is put out that this is not a food safety issue and it should not impact trade. I will inform the member that I have also had discussions with the federal minister on those issues and certainly want to assure this House that the steps are being taken to ensure that this is not used as a trade barrier with the United States.

I believe we have to continue to work with other countries to ensure that those doors stay open and that the message is clear, that the food product from Manitoba is a safe food product. Mr. Speaker: Time for oral questions has expired. * (14:20) MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Minnetonka School 50th Anniversary Hon. Christine Melnic k (Minister of Water Stewardship): Fifty years ago, a small six-room school named Minnetonka was opened on the banks of the Red River in the city of St. Vital.

The attendees were children from the local neighbourhood, most if not all of them walking or biking to school every day, many of them living close enough to go home for lunch. This was a school that I attended from grades 1 to 9. I remember walking into grade 1 and wondering just what school was really all about. My teacher, Ms. Unger, greeted us all at the door, and, because of her kind and welcoming ways, I quickly realized that school was all about loving to learn. The years that I atte nded Minnetonka were interesting ones for the community. It was the time that Darwin School was developed.

Minnetonka was expanded to include a gym, which was the start of the Minnetonka Mustangs. Much more instruction space, starting as an open-area concept, was included, a music room, an open-air patio, and our very own library was developed. Shortly after that, busing began and a whole new set of friends appeared every day from south St. Mary's Road and even beyond that exotic ring road called the Perimeter Highway.

So much has changed since my time, but one thing that remains constant is the fact that Minnetonka is a true community school with at least the third generation of children from the surrounding neighbourhood attending. As the local MLA who grew up in the area, I know that there are now the children of the children whom I went to school with attending Minnetonka today. My education began at Minnetonka, and I have been able to receive a Masters Degree. I owe my life to my education. Doors have opened for me that I did not even know were there.

As the youngest child of a working-class family, I would not have been able to access these opportunities through any avenue other than an effective public education system. It is because of the dreams of each and every child in Minnetonka that we need to continue to support public education and community schools today so that their dreams may become tomorrow's reality. Happy birthday, Minnetonka, and here is to at least 50 more years. Osborne House 35th Anniversary Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Mr.

Speaker, I rise today to pay tribute to Osborne House, which commemorated its 35th anniversary this past Thursday evening at Government House. I was pleased to be able to attend this event, honouring a special place that has provided countless women with somewhere to turn when options seem limited and somewhere safe to be when violence threatened. The event celebrated the tremendous community pioneers that identified a pressing need in their community, coming together to create Osborne House.

It was also an opportunity to recognize the many volunteers, staff members and board members that have overseen the successful operations of the shelter for 35 years. In the beginning, a small initiative on Hargrave Street began to make a difference in the lives of Winnipeg women. In 1994 , the first Osborne House was generously donated by June Menzies as a shelter

1542 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2009 from the storm. In 1979, Osborne House moved to Balmoral Street, a 30-bed facility with only one bathroom, and in 1989 moved again to its present location, a 12,000-square-foot, 12-bedroom facility with several bathrooms and a wide range of services for women to access. While we celebrate that a safe place like Osborne House is available to women in Manitoba, we could not help but be disappointed that our society continues to have a need for shelters like Osborne House.

We cannot help but be saddened that in the 21st century we continue to see families devastated by domestic violence and women suffering abuse at the hands of their partners. It is important that we all take an active interest in understanding the underlying issues that allow cycles of violence to cont inue and commit to ending that cycle. I congratulate Osborne House on a very successful event on Thursday evening. Let us look forward to a world where violence is a thing of the past, and, until then, be incredibly appreciative of places like Osborne House and the good work that they do. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Kevin Chief Mr. Doug Marti ndale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, a tireless community educator in our province who inspires inner city children to reach for their dreams was recognized and thanked for his hard work at the Premier's Volunteer Service Awards. Kevin Chief is the co-ordinator of the University of Winnipeg's Innovative Learning Centre which brings hundreds of children onto the campus each year from the Eco-Kids programs to assist them in reaching their academic potential.

On April 22, 2009, Kevin Chief was recognized for this outstanding contribution to the community with a 2009 Premier's Volunteer Service Award. These awards are in co-operation with Volunteer Manitoba and are meant to honour the efforts and dedication of outstanding volunteers throughout the province. Five individuals receive the award each year and this year, Kevin Chief was one of them. Kevin is passionate about serving the Aboriginal community.

He has volunteered with the Aboriginal Council of Winnipeg since 2005, sat on the proposal selection committee for the Centre of Aboriginal Human Resource Development, sits on the board for the Neeginan Development Corporation, was a volunteer basketball coach of Team Manitoba at the 2002 North American Indigenous Games, and is the Metis pavilion co-ordinator of Folklorama. He is also the executive director of the Winnipeg Aboriginal Sport and Recreation Association. Kevin attended the University of Winnipeg on basketball scholarships.

He obtained a Bachelor of Arts in justice and law and is currently working on his Masters in Education at the University of Winnipeg. He is an example to all of us of the outstanding people we have in Manitoba and of the great things one person can accomplish. His hard work, commitment and dedication are a testament to his strong character and an inspiration for the rest of us. I would like to congratulate him on this award and thank him for his tir eless efforts in making Manitoba a stronger community. Hog Industry Economic Challenges Mr.

Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): I rise today to speak about Manitoba's pork industry. This valuable sector creates about 15,000 direct and indirect jobs and contributes approximately $1 billion annually to the provincial economy. Mr. Speaker, for the past number of months, we've seen a downturn in the price of hogs, coupled with high input costs and the effects of country-of-origin labelling. It's been very challenging for Manitoba hog producers. However, there's been a bit of optimism in the price in the recent weeks when hog prices started to slowly move upwards.

Enter the H1N1 flu, which has had a tremendous impact on the pork industry. We're seeing hog prices down just when there seemed to be some hope of better returns. There has also been a trade impact and some countries have erected trade barriers, refusing to take hogs from certain parts of Canada. The timing could not have been worse for Manitoba hog producers as you try to recover from the prolonged economic challenges. As I pointed out in my questions earlier, Mr. Speaker, this is a devastating blow to the pork industry.

Producers need a helping hand right now, more than ever, if they are going to survive this latest challenge. Many have put their life savings into staying afloat, as they try to combat challenges over which they have no control, like country-of-origin labelling, like the hog moratoriums, among others.

May 4, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1543 As we know or always should know, the H1N1 flu is not about the pork industry. High quality Canadian pork is still safe to eat, but our producers are trying to manage the public misconception that there might be something wrong, especially when this flu was incorrectly named the swine flu at the onset. Changing the name to H1N1 was a step in the right direction. But we, as members of this House, need to get out in front of the issue. We need to tell the world that Manitoba produces safe, high quality, tasty pork products that are highly sought after.

If each one of us goes home tonight and has pork, there's a sign of commitment to our producers. Let's all tell our family, our friends, our neighbours what a great product we have grown right here in this great province of Manitoba. Let's not let the concern of H1N1 unfairly target Manitoba pork producers. Thank you Mr. Speaker. River East Transcona English-Ukrainian Program Ms. Erna Braun (Rossmere): I rise today to highlight a wonderful event I had the privilege of attending last week.

On April 30, I joined the River East Transcona School Division's Ukrainian bilingual program for their annual traditional Easter breakfast which was held at Springfield Heights School. This fun event joins together staff, students and parents from the schools offering the English-Ukrainian bilingual program: Springfield Heights School, Bernie Wolfe Community School and Chief Peguis Junior High School. This marvellous Easter breakfast showcased with pride the heritage of the Ukrainian community in Manitoba.

The morning offered many exciting sights and sounds with a program full of traditional songs and dance, as well as a tasty Ukrainian breakfast of cooked eggs, paska, babka, ham, kovbasa and traditional pastries. The highlight of the morning was the egg game, Цокання, which had students and adults alike lining up to claim the title of reigning champion. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to commend the Manitoba Parents for Ukrainian Education, who are an important organization of support to the parent associations of schools providing the English- Ukrainian bilingual program.

They are dedicated to the promotion, enhancement and expansion of the program in Manitoba and support members of the Ukrainian community to access quality public education that reflects the needs of students. Mr. Speaker, I ask the House to join me today in congratulating the students, staff and parents of the River East Transcona School Division's English- Ukrainian bilingual program on a job well done. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon. Dave Chomiak (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you might resolve the House into Committee of Supply. Mr. Speaker: Okay.

The House will now resolve into Committee of Supply. Would the Chairs please go to the respective rooms where they will chairing. In the Chamber will be Competitiveness, Training and Trade; Room 255 will be Water Stewardship; and Room 254 will be Health and Healthy Living. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTH AND HEALTHY LIVING * (14:40) Madam Chairperson (Marilyn Brick): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Health and Healthy Living. As had been previously agreed, questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Let me start off with a question on the H1N1 flu. The minister is very reluctant to even hint or suggest that it might be reasonable for somebody coming from a place where there's a major outbreak, like Mexico, to stay away from large groups in Manitoba. Maybe the minister can explain why. Hon.

Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): Well, the member's just incorrect in making a statement that he just did. I don't have any particular passion or reluctance concerning the H1N1 virus outside of what I'm being advised by medical experts. That's my responsibility. I would not substitute my judgment as a politician for the advice of our Chief Provincial Public Health Officer and medical officers of health across the nation. Indeed, the Public Health Agency of Canada, I would not substitute my individual judgment for their judgment.

1544 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2009 What I did say to the member one of the last times we met was that I don't believe now is the time to play politics or to politicize a very serious issue, and I said that, regardless of manner in which the inquiry was made or the advice was delivered, I would listen and that I would consult with medical experts, not substitute my non-medical judgment. I would consult with medical experts. Indeed, the issue of quarantine, isolation, is a part of pandemic preparedness. It is a part of our pandemic preparedness, Madam Chairperson.

It's part of that plan and it was examined and discussed by medical experts, and it is not a protocol they are advising. I will certainly take my advice from Dr. Kettner, from Dr. Butler-Jones, the medical officers of health across Canada, and I will state that there will be differing opinions on a variety of protocols. We see this in the news every day. Some people are commenting that there are more news stories than there are confirmed cases of the illness in Canada. Whether that's a salient point, I won't comment. We see across the world there are varying opinions on whether or not to close schools.

There are varying opinions on the use of antivirals for prophylaxis. There are varying opinions on surgical mask versus N95. There are varying opinions, indeed, on the subject of quarantine, you know, where we've seen some jurisdictions take what is by medical experts being called extreme measures. But it is my responsibility as Minister of Health for the Province of Manitoba to take advice from the experts here in Manitoba and nationally, and it is not their advice at this time to follow the suggestions that the Member for River Heig hts (Mr. Gerrard) made last week. Mr.

Gerrard: I should make sure that things are clear and that the minister is not trying to misrepresent what I'm saying, just as she accuses me of trying to misrepresent what she has said. I have not argued for quarantining people.

What I have suggested is that it's reas onable for the Minister of Health and the government to indicate to people who have come from a site of a major outbreak that it is sensible if they stay aw ay from large groups of people in Manitoba for a five-day period, and, of course, if they have no symptoms in five days we know that they're clear of the H1N1 flu and that there's no longer a problem or a possibility of them then spreading the flu to somebody else. So I think that, you know, the minister–we need to be clear both ways here. For example, there was a situation in Vernon, B.C., Madam Chairperson.

Now I know the decision has been made differently here in Manitoba in terms of closing schools, but a school was closed in Vernon, B.C. because somebody came down, or a child, a student came down with the H1N1 virus and may have infected others in the school. As the minister I'm sure is well aware, at Kings-Edgehill School in Nova Scotia there were, in this case, several children who'd been in Mexico who came back, and I'm understanding that most of the 33 cases of the H1N1 flu in Nova Scotia actually are from people who were at the Kings-Edgehill School, and that this has spread within the school.

I mean, we know historically, we know from present-day examples that this flu can be spread reasonably easily when you've got quite a number of people in close proximity. The measure that I suggested, which was for somebody coming back from Mexico to stay away from a location where there is a large group of people for five days, would, for example, have eliminated the need for the closure in the school in Vernon.

It is too early, of course, to know exactly what the situation is going to be in Brandon with the child who has been diagnosed with H1N1 flu, and we will see how that evolves from the story and what we know. The minister may know more, that this child may well have been very close to the end of the period of having the flu when the child was in the school. So it may not have been all that infectious. I don't know the specific details. In any event, I would just, you know, make that point to the minister so that we're clear. Ms.

Oswald: Again, I will reiterate to the member that, again, regardless of the forum in which the member will provide advice and raise suggestions, regardless of the forum in which he will not raise advice or suggestions, I committed to him that I would pass on that advice to the medical experts that are advising me and advising Manitoba Health and Healthy Living. I did that and there was discussion, indeed, on some of these points. There has been discussion on a national stage, including the Public Health Agency of Canada and Dr. Butler-Jones, and this was not the approach that was recommended.

I'm not saying that everybody in the universe holds a unified opinion on exactly what protocols should be followed on issues of infection control, but I am saying that the consensus, overwhelmingly, was

May 4, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1545 to follow through with the protocols that Dr. Kettner is recommending. They're consistent. Again, I'm not going to engage in a medical debate with the member for a lot reasons; chiefly among them, he is a doctor and I am not. But the issue of separating people, asymptomatic individuals, for periods of time, five days, seven days, whatever is being recommended, is an interesting one in that we know that there is discussion about human-to-human transmission, and we know that the illness is being reported in–is it over 30 of the United States, now?

I believe that's the case. And while there are contact traces being done concerning people coming from Mexico, or not, as I understand, from the medical experts, basic principles of transmission from human to human would, very possibly, have to include people travelling to all of those states as well, and it does become a complex matter. So, again, I will concede the doctor's medical degree over mine, and I will tell him that I will continue to hear his advice on the issue of H1N1 and, in fact, I would argue, on other matters.

While we spend a lot of time in combat in the Legislature, I know that the member and I, along with other members of the Legislature, have had constructive discussions about matters of health and have made amendments to protocols and to ideas. We've passed private members' bills, so it is not unprecedented for me to listen to the member opposite. I am just saying that in this case, or in these cases, there were a few ideas put forward when tested with our Chief Provincial Public Health Officer and, indeed, on a national stage with medica l officers of health, the advice was not supported at that time.

If the member has more advice to offer, suggestions to make, I will commit to him to test them with those that are advising me. I don't believe now is the time for political football. I think that patients aren't served well when we do that. So I'll commit to the member to continue to raise issues and I will also commit to all Manitobans that I'm going to take my advice from our Chief Provincial Public Health Officer who, of cour se, works in concert with his colleagues across the country and internationally. * (14:50) Mr.

Gerrard: Just a follow up comment in terms of whether you need to do anything for, at this point, countries other than Mexico. There is a general approach in terms of flu. When people talk about the flu being in a few people, whether it be in a state or in a city, even Halifax, where it's in a school, there is a difference between relatively small numbers of people in an area and the flu getting out into the community to the point that you have hundreds of cases.

Clearly, at this point, although the numbers are growing in different parts of the world, the situation in Mexico is the only one where, right now, it's widespread in the community and not just in a few isolated–whether it be family or an individual school, what have you. So I think, when I'm talking about suggesting to people who come from Mexico, where it is widespread in the community, that one would treat that differently from a location where there have been a few isolated cases, and at that point it is still fairly well contained.

Let me ask a little bit more about another area which is important in terms of flu handling, and that deals with whether or not government is advising people to go and see their doctor, and, I mean, at this point it is a mild flu and it's not the severe form that we had with SARS. But at some point there are concerns of people who are infected going into a doctor's office and spreading it among patients, some of whom may be not well.

It seems to me that the communication so far hasn't been entirely clear in terms of whether somebody should phone their doctor, whether they should visit their doctor in the doctor's office, or call Health Links, which is a third option which is being talked about. Ms. Oswald: Madam Chair, well, I want to be clear with the member opposit e that communications concerning the advice of th e Chief Provincial Public Health Officer have been consistent and, indeed, in my belief, they have been clear.

There have been two very consistent themes for Manitobans: follow standard precautions against the spread of the flu and go to your doctor when you would ordinarily do so. So, if you do not feel that great but it is not a time that you would normally seek time with your family doctor, that would not be the time to go. If you are not feeling very well and it is a time that you would seek help from your family doctor, then the Chief Provincial Public Health Officer is advising that you go.

There are messages concerning Health Links for people who have questions and, indeed, we've added resources to Health Links to address a potential surge that might exist there.

1546 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2009 I can inform the member that there's also a lot of work being done in communicating with groups across the population. There have been many communications going out to a variety of groups like schools and day cares, colleges and universities, to municipal groups, to the Manitoba Federation of Labour, to First Nations groups, many groups across the population with these consistent messages. I can let the member also know that in the specific area of our first confirmed case in Manitoba, additional communications and work have been added.

We know, of course, that Dr. Kettner previously stated in his daily briefings that it really was only a matter of time until we had a confirmed case, and, indeed, now we do. I'm also very pleased to hear that so far this individual's illness has been of the mild variety. There are even some reports emerging that this individual has recove red. Either way, good news. We communicated quickly with the public once the positive lab test result came forward. As soon as the facts were assembled and the family was contacted there was communication to the public made the next afternoon.

This individual, of course, is located in the Brandon Regional Health Authority in a specific school, and public health nurses and doctors have made information available to the family and to the school. The public health nurses are visiting all Brandon schools this week to ensure that students, parents and staff have information that they need about H1N1 and they started today within the school affected by the patient's family. We've also been clear through Dr.

Kettner regarding decisions and reasons why the school was not closed and those are consistent, of course, with the guidelines from the Public Health Agency of Canada. Even before this case, we had already distributed public health information about H1N1 to the schools in Manitoba. I can inform the member, as I did to others last week, that we have at the ready flu clinics available to be organized within hours should that situation present itself and be recommended by the Chief Provincial Public Health Officer as a strategy that we will use going forward to stream individuals that may be presenting with H1N1.

So I believe the communications have been consistent, frequent and clear and we will continue to make those statements concerning appropriate infection control and appropriate response when an individual Manitoban believes that they have the flu, H1N1, or any flu. Mr. Gerrard: Let me move on to another epidemic which is sweeping the province and which the government acknowledges on its Web site, the epidemic of diabetes, and just ask the minister what the latest numbers are, from which year and what the minister's target is in terms of reducing the numbers of people with diabetes in Manitoba? Ms.

Oswald: As I've expressed to the member before, of course, in Manitoba Health and Healthy Living we have a shared responsibility for topics, issues and files. The issue of diabetes prevention and promotion of healthy living is one chiefly held by the Minister of Healthy Living (Ms. Irvin-Ross). Of course we share in our discussions with a shared deputy minister and, indeed, it is an area that the Minister of Healthy Living takes a lead on. We do have time set aside for questioning for topics under Healthy Living for tomorrow.

I believe, in agreement with the official opposition, that time has been set for the beginning of the session tomorrow. Having said that, the Minister of Healthy Living has agreed to make herself available today in the event that there wasn't enough time within that hour for all members to question and she's quite prepared to answer this line of questioning now for the members. So I'll turn matters over to the Minister of Healthy Living to answer questions on the file in which she is the lead. * (15:00) Hon. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Minister of Healthy Living): I thank the member for the question.

We do not have surveillance information available at this time, but we will get it to you, and we will take it under notice and forward it to you. We are very committed. At the Province of Manitoba, we're working with all of our community partners in dealing with this issue of diabetes. We have made a number of investments around Chronic Disease Prevention Initiative, which can directly impact individuals' health status through opportunities of physical activity, nutrition. We also have the regional diabetes program, which we support.

We provide information around awareness and prevention but also address treatment. We have a

May 4, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1547 program which we are funding, called Getting Better Together, where it is a peer support group where individuals come together and talk about the impact of their chronic disease and how they can continue to live a healthy lifestyle. So we make a number of investments across the board. We have funded healthy living activators across the province. Those activators will be sharing the word about prevention and working with our community partners to do that, as well. Mr.

Gerrard: Back to the Minister of Health on one of the areas which has been sort of problematic to say the least. That is in the area of shoulder surgery where the wait times have tended to be long, where I continue to hear of people having to go outside of Manitoba because the procedures are not available in a reasonable time here. Can the minister provide a bit of an update on shoulder surgery? Ms.

Oswald: Yes, the member and I have discussed this issue before, and, admittedly, while we have seen very good success in the area of hip and knee wait times being reduced, we know there are other quality-of-life wait times that have not been coming down as fast. In some cases there have been increases, but I am very happy that the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority has recruited Dr. Old, who is seeing patients already, who is already assisting in bringing down wait times we have had for shoulders. We know this is going to take a period of time to get through what might be defined as a backlog in times.

We are continuing to aggressively recruit. In this particular specialty area, we've already seen some success with the Winnipeg region being able to have success with that particular recruit, and we're committed to, as we have with hips and with knees, make a substantial reduction in wait times for shoulder surgery. Mr. Gerrard: In this session, we have already, through first reading, and coming up in the next few weeks to the second reading, a bill requiring screening of newborns for hearing deficits. Such a measure is present in most states in the United States and is widely recognized as being important.

I wonder whether the minister has had a look at the legislation and whether she would consider supporting it. Madam Chairperson: Order, please. I would like to remind members that currently before this committee is the Estimates for the Department of Health and Healthy Living. I would note for members Beauchesne's citation 832 , which advises that, as creatures of the House, committees can only consider those matters which have been committed to them by the House.

Further, although we don't have the bill number right now, the bill the member has been mentioning is currently listed on the Order Paper under second reading. I would therefore respectfully note this committee is not the proper forum for the discussion of this bill. I would ask all members to focus their comments on the matter currently before this committee. Ms. Oswald: I thank you for the clarification concerning making commentary on a specific piece of legislation or otherwise, and shall not go against the will of the Chair and the rules of this Legislature.

I will say, broadly, on the issue of newborn hearing screening that inde ed we do have screening in Manitoba, not in every regional health authority. We do have funding that has been dedicated towards the infant hearing screening program called I hear Manitoba through the Childr en's Therapy Initiative, which is a joint initiative of Education, Family Services, Health and Healthy Child since 2004. That actually falls under the budget of Family Services and Housing. We know that the goals of that program are important ones because they, of course, are centred around early intervention.

We know our largest regional health authority, the WRHA, screens what medical experts would define as high-risk infants only, and we will continue to work with our regional health authorities and take the best advice that we can as we move forward to expand screening programs, whether it's a screening program for this important initiative for the health and well-being of our children or other screening initiatives that are important for children and important for adults as well. So we do have some screening.

We don't, at this time, have universal screening, and we'll continue to work with those experts to move forward for the best possible program in the Department of Health when it comes to newborn hearing screening. Mr. Gerrard: As the minister is well aware, the tragic death of Brian Sinclair in the emergency room at the Health Sciences Centre last September has sparked a lot of public comment and a lot of concern about the situation in the emergency room at the Health Sciences Centre and at others.

1548 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2009 I just, in this context, want to ask the minister if she has information on recent wait times in the emergency room, if she has any other updates on the situation at the Health Sciences Centre emergency room in the wake of what happened last fall. Ms. Oswald: We know that the tragic death of Mr. Sinclair was very jarring for all Manitobans, and I include myself in that group. We know that it is unthinkable for somebody to go to an emergency room, sit for 34 hours and not get care.

We have, as a government, taken responsibility for this tragedy and conceded very early on what we knew the Chief Medical Examiner would tell us, and that is that it was a preventable death. The inquest, as the member knows, has been called. We welcome the facts coming forward in a very unbiased, clear due process, and we welcome the recommendations that will come from that inquest. * (15:10) I can let the member know, of course, that immediately after the tragedy of Mr.

Sinclair's death, there were initiatives put into place in the Health Sciences Centre emergency room concerning identifying people that were waiting for care and doing frequent follow-ups to ensure that people were appropriately triaged. Of course, the renovations that have occurred at Health Sciences Centre and that are ongoing in other environments across Manitoba will go a long way to address some of the initial findings after the tragedy occurred.

I can also inform the member that at the end of March we announced a $5.7-million initiative to strengthen emergency care in Manitoba's busiest ERs, including adding more than 60 staff and a provincial adviser on emergency patient care, Dr. Ricardo Lobato de Faria, who is viewed by many in Manitoba, and indeed nationally, as a driving leader in emergency care, based out of Seven Oaks Hospital, will serve as that provincial adviser, and do consulting, advising and hands-on work with staff on the front line to really work to put the patient at the centre of the journey.

We know that the Seven Oaks ER is viewed by many to be among the best, if not the best, in Canada, in terms of patient flow and a patient-centred approach. We know that much of that has to do with how Dr. Lobato de Faria has re-engineered processes and has worked as a member of that team to really transform care. So we believe having him as a provincial adviser on emergency care is going to be one of the most significant initiatives that can come forward, allowing him to share his leadership.

That announcement in March also included the modernizing of ERs across the province and focussing on vulnerable visitors to emergency rooms. Of course, that would be a direct response to what we saw so tragically happen to Mr. Sinclair. We know that we continue to provide as much information as possible to the public concerning how our facilities are working.

There are investments being made in information technology that, as we go forward, will enable us to provide even more information to the people of Manitoba about wait times, particularly in the area of emergency care, and that action, of course, has been taken on all 46 recommendations of the Emergency Care Task Force. Some of them are not fully complete. As we know, they involve capita l infrastructure that is currently under way.

Some of it involves the investment in information technology, which is under way, but many of those recommendations have been completed, and we're going to continue to work toward finishing those. We know that for some people in Manitoba going to the emergency room is their first point of contact with the health-care system. We know that we want that care to be as efficient, as compassionate, and as complete as possible. That's what we're committed to do, and that's what we're investing in doing. Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Chair, I do have a series of, hopefully, what will be short questions and answers to the Minister of Health. First, I must acknowled ge, in regard to the Seven Oaks Hospital emergency situation, I do appreciate the gesture that has been made by the Minister of Health in terms of the arrangements of a meeting, which, I understand, is going to take place on May 13. What I'll do is reserve my questions regarding the Seven Oaks Hospital until possibly concurrence, or a later time. I also want to acknowledge a pleasant surprise in today's question period in regard to Nor'West health.

I didn't quite expect the minister to be as forthright as saying yes and then sitting down. I'm wondering if the minister can just elaborate as to when she anticipates that we could be seeing a shovel put in the ground for the new health service centre for Nor'West Community Health.

May 4, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1549 Ms. Oswald: Madam Chair, we did make this commitment, and we are following through with the commitment. The RFP for Access Northwest was released on Friday, so the due process that RFP takes and tendering and so forth will unfold naturally, and we'll get it done. Mr. Lamoureux: There is a great deal of expectation. I know there was a proposal call that went out previously, I believe two years ago, and nothing really came of it.

But, my understanding– because we don't necessarily have to spend that much time on the issue, my understanding is that the government is committed to making it happen sometime within the next two years. That's safe to say, yes? Ms. Oswald: Yes, it is. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, another issue that I had raised was in re gard to Dr. Postl. I had asked the question of the Premier (Mr. Doer) and the Premier indicated, he made the assumption that he would think that it would be public information as to how much Mr. Postl would be receiving in terms of tax dollars.

The Minister of Health, can she give confirmation that the Premier's assumption is correct? Ms. Oswald: I can let the member know there has been some discussion over time about this particular issue. By law, which is the same law that was passed by the Conservative opposition when they were in government, salary in formation for health professionals is available to the public upon request from the region. I can let the member know, because this has been made public as a result of this law, that in '07 Dr. Postl's salary was $373,000; in '06, it was $387,000 and change, in bo th cases.

That was for 2006, his salary was 387. In 2005, his salary was 358–closer to $359,000. His 2008 salary will be made public, which is the time that it's made public every year, I have learned, at the end of June as per the legislation. Madam Chair, I can also inform the member that all medical fee-for-service amounts over $50,000 are published in the Manitoba Health and Healthy Living Annual Report. In '07-08, Dr. Postl, you know, as per this report, received just about $58,000 for fee-for-service remuneration for his work as a pediatrician. In '06-07, he received $62,000 for this work, and Dr.

Postl was not listed in the '05-06 annual report, which means he received less than $50,000 for fee-for-ser vice remuneration. I also think, given the line of questioning that has occurred and the nature of the questions, it's very important to put in context that Dr. Postl is the CEO of the largest corporation in Manitoba, with a budget of about $1.8 billion and 28,000 employees. We know that Dr. Postl's work is respected locally, provincially and nationally, clearly not by everyone in this room but by many. We know that he was sought out to be the federal adviser on wait times.

We know he stays connected to the front lines by continuing his work there himself as a pediatrician with children in Winnipeg and remote communities, even earning the Canadian Association of Paediatric Health Centre's Child Health Award of Distinction in '06. * (15:20) There is no dispute that Dr. Postl could do a lot better financially if he took offers in other parts of the country, of which there are many for him.

His salary is lower than the salaries of many health CEOs in Canada and his commitment is to Manitoba, and, indeed, through the course of his medical career, to the most vulnerable children in our province. While I understand, on one level, the member's line of questioning about the public's right to know about his salary–that's why there's a law and it gets published Health and Healthy Living annual reports– I do not share his view on some of the other comments that he's made about Dr. Postl, up to and including the one where he says I am intimidated by him.

There are a number of things in this world– Madam Chair, if I might just finish–that frighten me. I'm frightened just about every day that maybe I'm not being the best possible mother to my son. I'm frightened that my brother's going to die of cancer, and I'm frightened that maybe this illness or some other illness is going to come and hurt people and everybody doesn't work together to do the best that they can do. But you know what? I went through childbirth and I taught junior high. There aren't that many things that scare me, and I would include Dr. Postl in that group. Mr.

Lamoureux: You know, I can tell the minister that what worries me is when a minister or a government loses control over bureaucracy, and I believe that has taken place in the province of Manitoba, that there is very little accountability within health-care bureaucracy today. But, before I go on the health-care bureaucracy, let me ask the question. The numbers that the minister gave–and I take it she has no problem with the complete, full

1550 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2009 disclosure in terms of just how much money is actually being paid–if you take a look at it, '06, Mr. Postl would have received $387,000; '07, $373,000. On the surface, it would appear as if he actually had a decrease. What I am told is that there was actually an increase. Can the minister indicate whether or not the gross pay for Mr. Postl was higher than $373,000 in '07? Ms. Oswald: Yes, first of all, on the issue of accountability, we know that we have worked in conjunction with our regional health authorities to have them become more accountable, not less.

We have worked with our regional health authorities to ensure, particularly on recommendations from the external review of regional health authorities, that they provide more information to the public about spending, about programs, about what is available to Manitoba people as patients. We know that we have worked with our regions to improve communications with the public.

We know one of the recommendations that came out of the external review of regional health authorities was that while there were systems in place to communicate with the public when regional health authorities were set up–district health advisory councils–we know that they are not working in the way that they were set up to work.

The regionalization working group that has been formed in response to the external review of regional health authorities has been tasked with this very complex contact with the public area that is not being addressed in the way that community members advise us they would like to be addressed. This is a very complex human dynamic, and that group is working very diligently on that. So improving accountability is a very significant and important part of how regional health authorities are working. We know that regional health authorities are required to come forward with an annual health plan.

We know that the financial reporting and statistical information has to be very clear to Manitoba Health. We know that year-end reporting requirements are very rigorous. We know that governance models are being worked on, amended and improved across Manitoba. So there are any number of accountability exercises that are going on including community health assessments, including coming forward with critical incident reporting, and management and learning. So accountability within the R HAs is a subject of much discussion and much activity.

So the first part of the member's statement earlier certainly needs to be corrected in terms of how Manitoba Health and Healthy Living is working with our regional health authorities to improve governance. We know that there have been situations in the past where there have been allegations in regional health authorities and there have been concerns and, indeed, wher e individuals have been removed and there have been interim leaders put in to restore accountability in the confidence of the public. Manitoba Health and Healthy Living is not shy from making that kind of a move.

We continue to have work to do as evidenced by advice in the external review. But on balance, we know that the work that's being done to hold down administrative costs, redirecting those costs to the front line, and improving accountability and governance across the regions, is of paramount concern for Manitoba Health and Healthy Living. On the specific issue of details of pensions of employees of the regional health authorities, I would not feel it appropriate to talk about such details of people's pension arrangements. These are personal arrangements between the board and the employee.

I don't think that is information that's required by law. I don't feel appropriate discussing it at this table. I will seek clarification on that issue for the member, but I can say that that which is required by law concerning remuneration for Dr. Postl is available, as I stated earlier at the beginning of the answer. Mr. Lamoureux: If a constituent asks me, as an MLA, how much do I make as an MLA, I'll let them know in terms of how much. I think it's around 81-82, I'm not 100 percent sure. But I would have, without any reservations, stating how much I make. That includes pension contributions.

Does the ministry not think that Manitobans deserve a straight-up answer? Ms. Oswald: That's why there's a law that publicly discloses his salary a nd his fee-for-service remuneration. Mr. Lamoureux: The question was, there is how much money we are paying and then there's how much money the law is actually requiring. It seems to be two different things.

May 4, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1551 Does the minister believe that the public has a right to know how much compensation that they're giving Dr. Postl? * (15:30) Ms. Oswald: I believe that the disclosure of CEO's remuneration is published every year, and I believe Manitobans have a right to know that. I believe, according to the Manitoba Health and Healthy Living report on remuneration of fee-for-service roles, that Dr. Postl or any other doctor working in Manitoba that makes over $50,000, that should be made public.

At this juncture, details of relationships between an employee and the board and the arrangements that are made concerning pensions, I don't feel it's appropriate to go outside of what the law is requiring, which is extensive in terms of public information. Again, I'll do more research on this issue about the public disclosure of the finite details of one's pension, and, you know, I'll commit to get back to the member more information about what is appropriate and what isn't. But, sitting at this table today, I can say to you that I am not certain that that's an appropriate thing for me to talk about.

I will do more research on it, but I'm not prepared to give the details of that to the member today until I do that research. Mr. Lamoureux: Is the minister prepared to give a personal opinion as to whether or not the public does have a right to know in terms of what full compensation a bureaucrat would be receiving through tax dollars? Ms. Oswald: I think, in the context of my answer, you know, I've explained this a couple of times already to the member.

I've said that there are laws in the public domain that regard the publishing of details about CEOs of regional health authorities and their salaries and doctors that bill fee-for-service. I've also made my opinion very clear about my beliefs about the incredible gift that Dr. Postl is to the vulnerable children of this province. I have heard the member's editorial about Dr. Postl. I have read his remarks in Hansard. I have read the remarks of both he and his leader in print in the paper. I would define them as vicious personal attacks, and I do not share those views.

If the member is asking my opinion, I can say, wholeheartedly, that I do not share the opinion on the value of Dr. Postl to the Manitoba people of the Member for Inkster and the Leader of the Liberal Party. I believe that he brings incredible leadership, particularly in the area of child health, but in work that's being done now in pandemic preparedness, in work that's being done in system innovation, in work that's being done in infection control, in work that's being done, indeed, in patient safety. So that is my opinion.

My opinion is that there are rules and laws that govern the disclosure of salaries, and I support those laws. It is my opinion that Dr. Postl could make a lot of money in a lot of other jurisdictions, much more than he's making here, plenty more. It is my opinion that Dr. Postl chooses to stay in Manitoba because he's committed to his patients and their families, he's committed to the system that he's working to build, he's been committed throughout his entire career to improving the status of health for First Nations, and he's committed to stay in Manitoba.

So, is it my opinion that people have a right to know how much public servants make? Yes, according to the law it is my opinion. Do I share the opinion of the member opposite that is so negative and vicious about Dr. Postl? I don't share that opinion. Mr. Lamoureux: My final question with a bit of a commentary would be that the minister is right. We do have differing opinions. I believe that health-care workers all over the province contribute immensely to the health care and protecting our children and providing everyone of all ages good quality health care.

But I suspect that if the minister was to walk the front lines and get a true understanding of the system, she'll find that the Winnipeg Regional Health and other health authorities are not being graded that well. I think that she does a disservice by blindly supporting and believing what the CEO of Winnipeg Regional Health Authority does and says on all issues. Believe it or not, her hero could be wrong. There is a possibility that he does make mistakes. After all, like her and like me, we are humans and we do make mistakes. I think that she needs to take those blinders off and to see that.

I would ask the Minister of Health, would she object to having Mr. Postl or other Winnipeg Regional Health Authority employees come before a standing committee of the Legislature? I thank the Member for Charleswood for the opportunity to put forward a question.

1552 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2009 Ms. Oswald: I stated a few times, when the member wasn't in the room, of course, how much we value the front-line workers. I heard the member say something that was contrary to that. I just need to correct the record, as usual, after he speaks. As far as individuals appearing before committees, I know that these are matters that are addressed through negotiations with the House leaders, as does the member opposite. The member is asking me what I think. I said I think that those negotiations should continue.

Are there parts of me that wouldn't mind witnessing a conversation between Brian Postl and the Member for Inkster? Yes, I would not mind that. However, the issue of who appears when and in what forum, the four standing committees, certainly in my recent memory, have all been settled through negotiations through the House leaders, so it's my opinion that those protocols should continue. Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Could the minister tell us if there are any triage nurses right now being asked to mask and gown in order to protect themselves from the flu, or are any being given the opportunity to voluntarily do so, if they feel like they want that extra protection? Ms. Oswald: I can inform the member that information has been provided through the regional health authorities about the precautions that are recommended for front-line workers. The recommended masking precautions, specifically, can be summarized as follows: In most circumstances, the standard surgical masks are being recommended.

In some circumstances, described in guidelines provided by the Public Health Agency of Canada, the N95 respirator mask is to be used, and it has been determined that there are some grey areas where health-care providers may exercise their professional judgement on which mask to use. If any health-care provider is determining that an N95 mask, for example, is one that they need, then they should use one. That's what's being recommended and will be provided. These are the recommended precautions by Dr.

Kettner, and they are also recommended precautions that are consistent with the national guidelines issued by the P ublic Health Agency of Canada. I can inform the member that Manitoba Health is, just this afternoon, meeting with the Manitoba Council of Health Care Unions to discuss these recommended precautions, seek advice and check to see if any addition al clarification is needed.

After that meeting, another letter reiterating the guidelines is going to be sent out to front-line workers throughout the RHAs. * (15:40) So we believe that Manitoba, through the RHAs, has informed and wi ll continue to inform front line health-care workers regarding the issues of masking and other materials as needed. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister tell us whether or not all RHAs have infection control guidelines developed and up to date? Ms. Oswald: I can inform the member that guidelines and issues concerning infection control, this work is ongoing.

I want to let the member know that all of the most recent best practice up-to-date information concerning H1N1 is being provided to all RHAs and those communications are being made through to front-line workers to ensure, regardless of where individual RHAs are in process of their infection guidelines, that they are up-to-date and working on the recommendations of the Public Health Agency of Canada and of course Manitoba's Chief Provincial Public Health Officer as well. Mrs.

Driedger: Some of my questions evolve from the accreditation report that was done of the WRHA a while ago but also in the Emergency Care Task Force. One of the concerns raised at the time was a number of departments having concerns about their ability to provide adequate infection control measures in light of concerns raised by SARS and pandemic influenza, and I hope that in that period of time–the task force was '04, SARS was '03 and certainly the accreditation report was '07, and even in '07 still, according to them, a number of things that should be done weren't being done.

So my questions are evolving just so that I have a clear understanding of progress that's been made since that period of time. My other question–and I think it's a fairly significant one in terms of whether or not there's a procedure in place to manage surge capacity. My concern rests from the fact that right now our ERs are jammed up. There are a lot of patients in waiting rooms. People are waiting still eight to 10 hours in waiting rooms.

May 4, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1553 Hospitals, I'm told, are jammed up. There's no bed capacity. Our ICUs again have full beds. We don't have enough ICU and ER nurses in the system. There's a chronic shortage there that has not been rectified for a number of years. So, if a pandemic were to hit, my concern would be what will happen in our ERs and then following that onto the wards? How will surge capacity be managed? Ms. Oswald: I can let the member know–we talked a little bit about this last week–that pandemic preparedness plans have been in the works for years.

These would incorporate issues on infection control in emergency rooms and otherwise. I know the member cites an accreditation report from the WRHA from about a year and a half ago, and we know that much has been done since then.

Just to review a few of those things that we talked about last week, things that are now in place include: an information sharing agreement with all the organizations in the health-care system; a mutual aid agreement among the key organizations; the stockpile of antivirals; the cross-government incident command structure, which, of course, is alive and well each and every day as we go forward with H1N1; an interdepartmental committee on pandemic planning; ongoing participation in the national pandemic oversight committee.

Of course, the proclamation of The Public Health Act has provided further tools for government and for the Chief Provincial Public Health Officer to issue orders as necessary in dealing with the minimizing of transmission of disease. Also, of course, work has been done on infrastructure, on issues like isolation rooms. Since '99, we've invested about $4.4 million to upgrade isolation rooms or build them from new in hospitals across the province.

We kn ow that the development of negative pressure isolation rooms has occurred, and we also know that through the context of the preparedness for a potential pandemic, our stockpiles of antivirals, of masks, of other equipment, have been, and continue to be, developed. As I said to the member before, we know that we are making plans with our regional health authorities, specifically on the issue of surge capacity, and when it's time to activate through our regional health authorities, there will be plans in place that can be operationalized within hours, such as H1N1 flu clinics.

All of these plans, of course, are being made incorporating the idea that the work force may be smaller because of individuals working on the front line who may be sick or may have loved ones that are sick and, therefore, they don't want to come to work, they want to stay with their loved ones. So that's part of the plan is planning for a smaller work force. We know that there are plans to activate beds in intensive care units at the old Health Sciences Centre and Children's Hospital, if necessary.

There is a plan in place that would delay elective, non-essential procedures in clinic operations to free up space and to free up staff. There are plans in place concerning admissions to personal care homes, and these plans were tested outside of the H1N1 flu recently, during the flood when we had to, in very short order, move residents of the St. Adolphe Personal Care Home. These protocols for dealing with what, for personal care home residents was a surge at that time, were able to be put into place and we were able to make a reasonably seamless move, probably not if you ask somebody from St.

Adolphe that had to be moved out of their room to another place. But from a systems perspective, things went very smoothly and people were moved back very smoothly. That, of course, involved also taking care of issues like home care and so forth. So the system does have plans in place to deal with a surge and will continue on that planning as the specifics of this illness continue to emerge and as we know more about the specif ic epidemiology and the specific needs that dealing with that illness will have. Mrs.

Driedger: If we looked at it really specific to something like Victoria Hospital–and I've actually been told by a nurse that the Vic is sometimes overcapacity in terms of the number of patients–so if we were to look at, say, 30 patients that needed to be admitted at the Vic and they have absolutely no beds, what happens then? Do we go into a code purple where people are prioritized to be able to go home and then if they go home, is home care then in place to be able to look after them because we are going to start to see this.

In a pandemic, we could see all of that happening at every single hospital and we don't have the nurses to look after that, whether it's in the ER or the wards or ICUs, should it end up that a patient might need an ICU. * (15:50) So, as an example, if we're looking at the Vic and you've got 25 patients, what kicks in? Like, how does that all–what's the ripple effect to get 25 patients that need to be admitted–admitted

1554 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2009 because, then, somebody's going to have to be kicked out of the hospital, I guess? Ms. Oswald: Well, certainly, the member is describing the scenario that the regional health authorities are actively planning for. That involves, you know, you're describing what a surge is: 25 patients, 35 patients, whatever the number at whatever facility, the regi onal health authorities are planning their capacity, and it is going to depend on the nature and the severity of the illness.

Again, those plans are being made as we go forward, whether it's, you know, closing down elective, non- essential-type services to redirect staff, whether it's halting admissions to personal care homes where possible. That's not always possible, but in situations where it is safe, all of thes e types of protocols are in place and it's all being done with the expectation that the work force will be smaller. Every jurisdiction in Canada is experiencing a health human resource shortage.

They are working on similar assumptions and these plans are extensive and, indeed, dynamic in the sense that they'll be responding to the severity and the type of the illness and the appropriate protocols. I know that we're working every day to build our work force. I feel a bit concerned that the public would get a message that there aren't enough people to take care of them.

There are a lot of things about H1N1 that are very frightening to people and, while we have seen, by and large, a prevailing calm here in Manitoba and a confidence that people are going to be taken care of, I need the member to know that the plans are being made for an even smaller group of workers for the reason that I stated. I would be concerned if a message got out there that suggested that Manitoba was different from other jurisdictions in terms of having significant shortages of health human resources that didn't exist elsewhere and that people got unduly frightened about care that they might get.

These plans are actively under way to deal with whatever kind of surge that we find and the conversations will continue as the illness emerges. Mrs. Driedger: Well, I think people do need to be concerned when, you know, in the province we're short almost 1,300 nurses. That is something to be concerned about. Plus, in-home care, I understand that the shortages there also fairly significant. So I think the public would have a legitimate reason to be nervous.

But, even more so, when it comes to ER nurses and ICU nurses, because in the ICUs those numbers are–you know, it's at a dangerously high nursing shortage, and the ERs aren't a whole lot better. These shortages have been chronic for some time and for some reason they don't seem to want to go away, and the ripple effect of all of that is nurses now being forced to work overtime and we know what happens. I mean, there's enough research on that to show that nurses that are working overtime make mistakes; they're tired.

You can't have nurses being forced to work 16 hours or 24 hours and there not be some, you know, significant reasons for mistakes. So patient safety does become an issue in that. While I know the other provinces are struggling with something similar, my concerns, you know, are about what's happening right here in Manitoba. I don't think it's a secret out there that there are some significant challenges with the nursing shortage, and it will have–heaven forbid that a pandemic strikes, but should it happen and people get really sick, then these challenges would be significant.

So I don't think that can be downplayed in any way. I'd like to ask the minister if there is a rapid response team set up right now in Manitoba that, for instance, if, in Swan River, there was a big outbreak, would there be a rapid response team that could come together really quickly and go into an area of the province and help out should a certain community be significantly affected? Ms. Oswald: I can let the member know that there are plans in place to deal with specific, perhaps, clusters of illness that may emerge in a particular community.

Our medical officers of health are actively involved in speaking with our regional health authorities about what the protocols will be concerning doctors or nurses or other health-care professionals that are needed. I can let the member know, for example, in the situation of the first confirmed case in Manitoba that Manitobans learned of yesterday, work was done with the individual and their family on the journey of getting the test and getting the results.

As soon as the facts were assembled and the family was contacted, the news became public, but while that was happening, in tandem, plans were made for public health nurses to visit all the schools in Brandon. Of course, Brandon was the area where the individual resides, the one who was a confirmed positive lab test result. Public health nurses are going to visit all the schools in Brandon to ensure that students, parents and staff have the information they need. They

May 4, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1555 started today, with the school attended by the patient's family, to have that very specific kind of information getting to the people that might feel the most worried. I know the member would be happy to have the information that so far this individual has presented with a very mild form. Some reports are saying that this individual has recovered, which is good news.

You know, I'll wait until the final bell on that one, but the news is very positive about the progress of that individual, and there has been much discussion concerning whether or not a school closure would be recommended. That's not the recommendation of the Chief Provincial Public Health Officer, which is consistent with the Public Health Agency of Canada. * (16:00) Even in this situation where we are not having reported a severe situation, a response team has gone immediately to provide information about infection control and comfort to the community about going forward.

So, you know, we do know that as far– going back to the nursing comments made by the member opposite, I don't disagree that all Manitobans want to ensure that we have plenty of nurses and plenty of doctors. That's why we've taken the steps that we have to bring more nurses to the work force and to build our complement of doctors as well. We know, specifically regarding ICU nurses, that additional intensive care training programs have been implemented.

New protocols are in place concerning salary while nurs es take that course that didn't exist before so that wouldn't be a barrier to those individuals that wanted to pursue training for ICU nursing. We continue to work to build that work force, and I know that the member is not–I know this–that the member is not interested in creating any undue fear at a very frightening time across the world. I'm confident that the member knows the difference between creating fear and discussing an issue of nursing staffing and doctor staffing that is absolutely sensible to discuss. This is on my mind these days.

Over the weekend, or late last week, we received an email from some people living in the neighbourhood of the Seven Oaks hospital. They were very concerned because they'd heard that the emergency room was closing, and it was closed. While we all have our reasons for saying the things that we say in political terms, it's one of the reasons why I've been so concerned about some of the rhetoric from another member in the House about this issue. It borders on dangerous in sending those messages.

Of course, we clarified the fact that Seven Oaks is open and among the best emergency rooms in the country with these individuals. But there is a line I think people in our line of work have to walk, and it is a time to take aggressive political shots–we all do it–and there is a time to work together to ensure that people are safe and feel sa fe. It's my belief that the member knows that, and I respect her questions about nursing, and I think she respects my point about fear–I think; I'm pretty sure. Mrs. Driedger: I guess I would indicate at this point–the Minister brought it up.

I certainly do think that we should not be doing anything to create fear in the public's mind. It's still obvious that there's a lot to be learned about whether we're even into the beginnings of a pandemic. That hasn't even been determined yet, so I think that people do need to sit back, wait. The questions I'm asking are certainly around the issue of if this evolves to a pandemic. That becomes much more serious than a mild illness.

Then I think we want to ensure that the system is ready to handle what might be, but certainly every indication right now–I don't sense that there needs to be any panic with what is happening in Manitoba right now, or even in Canada because it doesn't seem that the situation is more than a mild flu and perhaps isn't even much different than other flus that we see over the past number of years.

So I can assure the minister that I'm certainly not going to be out taking political advantage of anything related to this and not fearmongering about it because I don't think, at this point and time, that's where anybody needs to be. Madam Chair, can the minister indicate how many negative-pressure isolation rooms are currently ready to use in Manitoba? Ms. Oswald: There are isolation rooms across Manitoba. We have 123 rooms and eight are under construction as we speak.

I am informed, but I'm just double-checking, that that number of 123 is the number of negative-pressure, Madam Chairperson I'm going to double-check and confirm that there isn't a split between singularly isolation and negative-pressure. I can say that there has been some discussion to date about whether or not a negative-pressure room is the appropriate environment for H1N1. That

1556 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 4, 2009 discussion is still ongoing. There have been statements to date that that's not necessarily indicated, but that comes from medical doctors that are having many discussions about this. Certainly, what we've seen outside of Mexico is a series of mild illness. I know that there are reports, I believe, coming out of another jurisdiction in Canada today, of a more severe case. I believe it's a child, which is very concerning. It is a child in Alberta.

I know that there is advice from the Ch ief Provincial Public Health Officer that it is a natural evolution of influenza to have transition go from where we are today to seeing a severe illness. It's logical and predictable, according to the medical experts. So we have, in the United States and Canada, certainly, been fortunate so far, but that doesn't mean that we can stand down in our planning, whether it's with negative-pressure availability or whatever is recommended in terms of isolation.

Really, the message from the Chief Provincial Public Health Officer has consistently been, to the public, do what you would normally do if you're sick. If you're sick enough to warrant going to the doctor, you should go. If you don't have a doctor, call Health Links and make a plan. If you're not sick enough, don't go. So there's a real conversation about maintaining a sense of what you would normally do. His message to the health system has been quite the contrary. It's been: get ready and get ready for the worst possible scenario, and that's what we've been doing. Mrs.

Driedger: I had read that there was supposed to be a severe respiratory illness prep centre constructed at the Misericordia. Has that happened? * (16:10) Ms. Oswald: I will investigate the details on that particular item. Maybe if I can start with where she read it, it might help me locate it. Mrs. Driedger: I don't have my files here, but it was probably in a news

article a few years back and it–I'll go into the next question then because I think it came from around that same point in time. There was supposed to be a preliminary course on surge capacity training for health-care staff to be developed and implemented in 2008, and I would ask her a question as to whether or not that happened. Ms. Oswald: I will check the specifics on both fronts and return to the member. Mrs.

Driedger: There was also supposed to be a 25-member task force set up in 2007 to plan for a pandemic, and I'd like to ask the minister if that task force was set up, who was on it, who chaired it and who it reported to. Mr. Doug Martindale, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Ms. Oswald: I just want to go back and confirm for the member that in terms of negative-pressure rooms, the 123-plus eight currently being developed, those are negative-pressure rooms. Just to confirm on the issue of the surge capacity training, Manitoba Health and Healthy Living has developed and delivered surge capacity courses since 2006.

Actually, the first course addresses physical surge capacity and trains participants to deploy the national emergency stockpile system. The second is on organizational surge capacity, and that is currently being delivered. I suspect they paused while we're dealing with surge capacity. On the issue of the 25-member task force, Manitoba Health and Healthy Living uses the incident management system as a framework to prepare for the pandemic influenza planning. That system will also be used during health-system response. Incident management systems have been identified as best practice in emergency management.

So, within Manitoba Health and Healt

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	39-3-35
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	39th 3rd hansardpdf 35.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	eb37eba80aa641722644f0bcc74825857a1f3c69

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