Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 29 (32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-29

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, 7 April, 19 82 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPEN ING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. D. James Walding {St. Vital): Presenting Petitions ... Reading and Receiving Petitions PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. JERRY T. STORIE {Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolu tions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Rupertsland that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR .

SPEA KER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports ... Notices of Motion ... Introduction of Bills INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEA KER: Before we reach question period, may I direct the attenton of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 27 students of Grade 9 standing from the Darwin School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Carreira and Mrs. Bishop. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Riel. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. JAMES E. DOWNEY {Arthur): Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact-this question is to the Acting Minis ter of Environment, Mr. Speaker - that there have been millions of litres of salt water and crude oil being spread across valuable agricultural land and into waterways and ditches in the southwest area of the province, when was the Department of Environment notified of this taking place? MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Munic ipal Affairs. HON. A.R. {P ete) ADAM {Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister responsible for the Envir onment, I'll take that question as notice. MR . DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, would the Acting Minis ter as well notify this House what measures the Department of Environment are taking to safeguard 1251 against the pollution of water wells, water runoff into the Pipestone Creek and eventually into Oak Lake. With so much of this salt water and crude oil being spread around, the time of the the year being of the spring runoff period, has the department set up a monitoring station or part of his department, to inform the people of what is taking place, Mr. Speaker? ·· MR. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, I'll take that question as well on behalf of the Minister and bring the informa tion back when it's available. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. A. BRIAN RANSOM {Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, my question would be to the Minister of Labour. Could the Minister of Labour advise the House of the nature of his discussions with Mr. David Thomas of Sherritt-Gordon Mines? MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. VIC SCHR OEDER {R ossmere): Mr. Speaker, there haven't been any discussions between Mr. Thomas and myself lately. MR . RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, then can the Minister advise the House of the nature of the discussions between Mr. David Thomas of Sherritt-Gordon Mines and officials of his department, being the Department of Labour? MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. WILSON PARA SIUK (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I met yesterday with Mr. Thomas. I had asked that he come meet with me and discuss the situation regard ing Sherritt-Gordon Mines and we had that discussion. The discussion revolved around the summer shut down at Fox Lake and the possible shutdown at Rut tan Lake. That matter is being looked at in greater detail.

Sherritt expects to be making some further announcements on this within the next two to three weeks. I expect that they went up to Leaf Rapids and Lynn Lake to have discussions with the local man agement and with the workers there. MR. RANSO M: Mr. Speaker, does the Minister expect then that there will be layoffs in excess of the, I believe, 650 that have already been announced in terms of Sherritt's operations? MR.

PARA SIUK: According to the information that we had given to us verbally yesterday, no, that the layoffs are basically for a summer shutdown period that in some instances, depending upon whether in fact workers take up all the particular and various vacation options they have available to them, that in one case -I think that's the community of Lynn Lake - that the workers employed at the Fox Lake would be receiving in the order of 88 percent of theirtime off

Wednesday, 7 April, 19 82 through vacation pay, Mr. Speaker. In the other case since the workers at Ruttan Lake at Leaf Rapids are younger workers, some of them with less seniority and experience, that figure would be slightly less - we didn't have the final figures avail able to us yesterday - but a good percentage of the time that people will be off through the summer shut down will be made up through vacation pay. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister advise the House whether or not there are staff reductions taking place at Thompson at the lnco Mine? MR.

PARA SIUK: lnco has informed us that they are not reducing staff; that there are some reductions that are taking place through attrition but there have been no layoffs as such. That is the advise that we have received from lnco. They have laid off, as the member would know and the people of Manitoba would know, very large numbers of people in Ontario. But to date we have not had layoffs in Manitoba of a significant nature. There may be one or two instances but I wouldn't want to say that they haven't laid off anyone but we have received word that they have not really been laying off people at lnco in Thompson.

MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, could the Minister advise the House then what would be the magnitude of the staff reductions that are taking place at Thompson, even though there may not immediate layoffs? Can the Minister advise in total what the reduction will be? MR. PARA SIUK: Going from memory and I will have to get the specifics on this, Mr. Speaker, but I thought the numbers might have been in the order of 20 or 30, but I'll have to check to get specifics. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that these layoffs are taking place at the Sherritt operation at Leaf Rapids and Lynn Lake and the possibility at Ruttan; in view of the layoffs at Flin Flon and some of the problems, staff reduction, at Thompson as well; in view of the fact that the government has promised workers in the province that they would have job se curity and that they would be compensated for layoffs that compensation would be required in the event of shutdowns or layoffs involving more that 50 people, that promise being made in the document that's been referred to a number of times in this House being entitled, "A Clear Choice for Manitobans," a policy of the Manitoba New Democratic Party, Mr.

Speaker; and in view of the fact the Minister of Employment and Immigration, Mr. Axworthy, in Ottawa has said that he is waiting for initiatives on the part of the province with respect to being able to do something for these people that have been laid off, will the Minister of Energy or the Minister of Labour advise what they are doing to help mitigate the effects upon these people that are being laid off? Will they be taking the initiative that Mr. Axworthy is waiting for them to take? MR. PARA SIUK: Mr.

Speaker, we have in fact been in contact with the Department of Manpower and Immi gration with respect to possible forestry programs. When we met with Mr. Thomas yesterday, we said we wanted to sit down and work with them to develop proposals to put forward to Mr. Axworthy's depart ment. That was one of the items that we raised yesterday. We have at the province's initiation, Mr. Speaker, caused to have been established a Federal-Provincial mining union committee which is looking at this very major problem which is affecting the mines right across this country.

That committee has been estab lished; Manitoba is co-chairing that committee; they have had some very productive meetings to date. We are expecting to get a report to the Mines Minister's Conference which will be held in September. Those are the initiatives that we have undertaken to date within the course of four short months, Mr. Speaker. I must add that until our proposal was made to the Mines Ministers, no province had ever raised this topic of mine closures and mining layoffs, even though Thompson had been affected by a fairly sub stantial layoff, Mr.

Speaker, with no action being taken in the fall of 1977. When this government took office we did make this topic known immediately and our concern about this major problem made known immediately to our fellow Ministers in other provinces and the Federal level and work is being undertaken on this problem. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, will the Minister advise the House what immediate impact this study will have upon the people who have either been laid off or are threatened with layoffs?

Perhaps he could also advise at the same time what promises, what impact the visit of the First Minister had when he went North to tell the people firsthand that he was concerned about them? When can those people expect some concrete action from the government? MR. PARAS IUK: Mr. Speaker, there has been a committee working to determine the extent to which the Mining Community Reserve Fund can be used to deal with some of the financial problems caused in the communities by these layoffs.

I have heard from local people that they were extremely pleased and gratified that my Premier would go up and meet with them firsthand when they had these major problems. They recall that after the big layoffs by lnco in Thompson in 1977 that they tried to meet with Mr. MacMaster, the Minister at that time, and they couldn't get the time of day with that government, and yet they found that my Premier was prepared to go up there and meet with them directly. Mr.

Speaker, I must say that in terms of major concrete action that can be undertaken right now, I must admit that we cannot provide immediate concrete action within the short time of two to three months. If some of this work that we are undertaking now, Mr. Speaker, had been launched three and four years ago by our predeces sors maybe we would have a set of programs and projects in place to deal with these particular prob lems. But, Mr. Speaker, it takes a bit of time to deal with four years of neglect. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. RO BE RT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendrye): Thank 1252

Wednesday, 7 April, 19 82 you, Mr. Speaker. After that one wonders whether or not one would like a visit from the Premier in one's constituency knowing what happens when he visits yo u. However, Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Muncipal Affairs and would ask him whether the guidelines and eligibility criteria are available to municipalities who are interested in the Manitoba Main Street Project? MR. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, we are now putting a pack age together and -( Interjection)- Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Member for Minnedosa is answering the question, I don't know whether I should answer it, but I am attempting to advise the House that we are now working on alternatives for the program and it will be announced in due course. MR. BA NMAN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister could inform the House whether the program that's being introduced will correspond with the legislation that was passed by this House last year? MR. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, we will be looking at differ ent alternatives for the program and when we have them in place we will announce those programs. MR. BA NMAN: Mr.

Speaker, in light of the fact that the government has put $1.5 million in the Estimates for this particular program, and in light of the fact that towns or villages throughout the province such as the Town of Steinbach is contemplating a major Main Street renewal program, I wonder if the Minister could inform the House whether towns in this particular positio n, who are now formulating their Public Works budgets and Public Works program for this coming year, should hold off with finalizing these projects or bringing them to tender until they have a chance to put in an application for this particular program. MR.

ADAM: Mr. Speaker, I hope to have some infor mation, probably before the 15 April and I'm hopeful that I will have something to announce by then. That is not too far in the future, and perhaps the Town of Steinbach may wish to consider waiting until the pro gram is announced. I'm sure that they will be affected by this program as well as many other towns in the Province of Manitoba. It is only a start of the Main Street Program. It's a very exciting program as I men tioned previously. There's a lot of people inquiring about it, a lot of towns, and we're hopeful that it will be a very successful program. MR.

BAN MAN: A final supplementary then. I appre ciate that the Minister within a week's time will proba bly be announcing this and I would urge him to do that. I guess my final supplementary question would be that, does he envision that the reconstruction and replacing of such things as curbs and sidewalks in downtown areas that have been deteriorated over the last number of years, will that be considered as part of the program? MR. ADAM: It may be and it may not. It depends on -(Interjection)- Mr.

Speaker, there are some of the towns that indicated that they would like to put ramps for wheelchairs in addition to their sidewalks to assist the handicapped people, and such things of that nature, I think, would qualify. I must point out how ever, Mr. Speaker, that I hope the Minister will assist me in passing the Estimates of Municipal Affairs as soon as possible when they come up for review so I will have the authority to spend the money. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D.M. (Doug) GOU RLAY (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

In view of the headlines in one of Winnipeg's daily newspapers this morning, it says, "Municipalities Land Tax Sale List Doubles. " I wonder if the Minister of Municipal Affairs could inform the House as to whether he has had discussions with any of the municipalities and whether this is a general problem throughout the province. MR. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, I have not had any informa tion coming from the municipalities of a problem that has been reported in the press and so I don't consider that to be widespread since none of the municipalities have contacted my office expressing a concern that there were a number of arrears much larger than pre vious years. I'm not sure that that's prevalent, but I would certainly be happy to meet with any of the municipalities. Our policy is an open-door policy and should any municipality wish to contact me and express their concerns, I'd be very happy to meet with any and all of them. MR. GOU RLAY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I thank the Minis ter for his answer, but going back to some of the election promises that were published, it mentions here: "Ease the property tax burden," and we all know that the education taxes in most municipalities has gone up at least 20 to 30 percent. We've had examples quoted here in recent weeks. I'm wondering if the Minister could advise the House as to what types of easement programs that he has for the municipali ties in view of the increased tax burdens that the municipalities are obviously facing. 1253 MR. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, there were some sugges tions that perhaps some of the people were not paying for their taxes because the interest rate was not high enough on penalties, so it is difficult at this point in time to analyse the reason for the increase in number of tax arrears this year. It may be because some peo ple prefer to delay paying them. So until such a time as I can have some feedback from municipalities in different parts of the province to find out if there indeed is a major problem out there, it's difficult for me to give the honourable member a comprehensive reply to his question. MR. GOU RLAY: Mr.

Speaker, I'm just wondering if the Minister of Municipal Affairs is contemplating then raising the interest rate on tax penalties. MR. ADAM: No. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Mem ber for Lakeside.

- Wednesday, 7 April, 19 82 MR. HA RRY ENNS (Lakesi de): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct a question to the Minister of Munici pal Affairs. Can he indicate whether the Minister now has in his possession the Weir Report on assessment, the com mission that was undertaken by the former Premier? MR. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, I'm happy to inform the members in the Assembly that the Chairman of the Assessment Review Committee presented copies to me the day before yesterday, I think it was, and as soon as I have sufficient copies for distribution - there is a second copy that will be tabled as well as the original copy - an overview or an abridgement of some of the sections of the report, I expect to have those shortly. As soon as I do, they will be tabled in the House. MR. ENNS: I thank the Minister for that answer, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if he could also indicate, is it in the intention of his Ministry to distribute this report somewhat more widely, specifically to municipalities, who I know are anxious to look at some of the recommendations? MR. ADAM: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I intend to have suffi cient copies to provide all municipalities and school boards. There will be two copies because the main report is 375 pages, it's quite complicated and that is the reason that the committee have printed another secondary report along with the main report so that people can refer to it more quickly on the main recommendations in the report.

We will distribute these reports as widely as possible and I will be mak ing some announcement in the House when I table the report on how we're going to deal with it. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Stur geon Creek. MR. J. FRANK JO HNS TON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Labour.

Yesterday in the House I questioned the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism as to the partic ipation, if there was any, with her department with Wolch Limited, Sun Valley Pools, Creative Fiberglass, Water Closet, Kenway Distributors who filed bank ruptcy, if the Ministerof Labour's department has had any contact with these companies. Are the people working for these companies to ascertain whether they can be of assistance to helping those people who have lost their jobs find work because of the promise that was made by the First Minister that there would be not any jobs lost in this province? MR.

SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank yo u, Mr. Speaker. I'm sure that the member is aware that a number of the corpo rations he has referred to, a number of the businesses he has referred to, are businesses that went into receivership when he was the Minister of Economic Development and when Mr. Mac Master was the Minis ter of Labour. He didn't tell us yesterday when he was standing there and talking about Sun Valley Pools and the Water Closet organization that they had gone into receivership before the elections and well before we had taken office.

But certainly I can tell the member that the Minister of Economic Development and the Department of Economic Development is doing what it can to ensure that people will be looked after in this province to the best of our ability. MR. JO HNS TON: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Labour and I quote from the Minister of Economic Development's statement yesterday. "The department has not had in place an active program for dealing with retail businesses, " and I'm aware of that, Mr.

Speaker, but because of the promises made by the previous government and because of the questions that I received in this House over four years about retail businesses and bankruptcies, etc., with requests from the people on the Opposition side that at that time, and they are now government, to actively do something and investigate to see what we could do, can I ask the Minister of Labour, has he set up a group within his department because of the present situa tion of bankruptcies and job losses in the Province of Manitoba, to contact these organizations to see if there is any possibility of helping these people find other positions, the same I might add, Mr.

Speaker, as the previous government did when Swifts went out and when Maple Leaf Mills went out, those kind of situations were set up to assist people? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated before, the Minister of Economic Development has answered yesterday that we are looking into it. We surely wouldn't want the member to have each department of government contacting each company that goes out of business because of difficult economic circumstances. If we are going to get into that kind of a program, then the appropriate Minister is the Minister of Eco nomic Development.

The member himself recognizes that in those years when he was on this side, the questions about those issues were directed to him and although he answered, he never answered in a way that was satisfactory to us, and that is why our Minister of Economic Development is now talking about the possibility of forming some kind of a group which would look at retail closing.

There was nothing in place over four years. 1254 There was clear evidence over that period of time that bankruptcies were becoming a more difficult reality in this province and in this country and they sat back and did nothing, now they're referring specifi cally to companies that went into receivership before the election and saying, what did you do to prevent the receivership? We did everything we could. We won an election as quickly as we could in order that we get a government that will be concerned and will attempt to formulate policies that will assist people. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, my final question to the Minister of Labour is that, first of all he does not know the structure of the Department of Economic Development nor has he taken the time to find out. There is an advisory capacity within that depart ment to consult with small business that has been there for many years. Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister of Labour if he in his capacity as Minister of Labour,

Wednesday, 7 April, 19 82 not the Min ister of Economic De velopment but Mi nis •.er of Labour, who is concerned with people having jobs in this province, is concerned with layoffs from bankru ptcies in this province, does he intend to have a department that will see that those people have an opportuni ty to find other em ployment as promised by that govern ment? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, we are doing our utmost to ensure that all people in this province will be able to find em ployment.

We are currently negotia ting an Adult Occup ational Trai nin g Agreement with Ottawa and we are in fact going into new in itia tives with respect to trai ning. Each week I am able to sign new agreements al low ing people to get into training in this province, adult people. We are in a position right now where we are in volved in other -(I nterjec tion)- The former Attorney-General says, answer the que stion. That is exactly what I am doing. The memb er is ask ing what we are doing, is he not? Isn't that the question?

Aren't you ask ing what it is that we are doing to ensur e that people have work in thi s province? Isn't that what you are concerned about? If that isn't, then please tell me what you are concerned about. MR. JOH NSTON: My question to the Mini ster of Labour is - and to jog his memor y a little bit - there was in the Province of Man itoba an organ ization put together by the previous Min ister of Labour to assist people who lost their jobs because of closur es or bankr uptcies in specific industries that closed. I men tioned two of them.

Because of the numb er of bank ruptcies and the total people that will be unem ployed by at least four com panies that I have mentioned going bankrupt and the reports at the present time that bankru ptcies have in crease in 19 52 over 19 81, is the Mini ster going to have in place within the Depart ment of Labour in the Province of Mani toba a group of people who will contact these companie s and the people who have lost their jobs to assist them or advise them where there might be other work avail able for them? Very simple, Mr . Speaker, is he going to do that in the Department of Labour? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr.

Speaker, I've already indi cated twice that it is the Department of Economic Dev elopment which would be specifically looking into that issue and I think that it would be inapprop riate to have every department of govern ment phon ing the se people up. It seems that if we're going to have someone doing it, that is the appropriate department, that is the department which would do it. You could just as easily argue that it could be the Department of Social Services; it could be any other particular department.

I think that we have chosen the most sensible department to do it and I would trust that that answers the question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nis ter of Consu mer and Corpor ate Affairs. TABLING OF REPORT HON. EUGE NE KOSTYRA (S even Oaks): Mr. Speaker, on Monday the Honour able Mem ber for St. Norbert asked me if I had received a copy of the Interim Report from the Comm ission of Inquir y with respect to the Logan Avenue Industrial Park. I have received that report earlier this morning.

I am pre pared to table a copy of it and just outline the four recommenda tions that are made in the report and the province's response to those four recomme ndations. The Commissioner has recomm ended that the province instruct its staff to refrain from ini tiating any contact with respect to property owners in the area.

That recomme ndation has been in force some time that the province has not been actively in itia ting con tact with residents in the area, be it residents or busi nesses, so there seems to be some misu ndersta nding with respect to that recomm endation, but we are pre pared to conti nue with that policy of not in itiati ng any contact and just responding to any contacts from the com munity.

The seco nd int erim recom mendation was with respect to the time requir ed for persons, both homeowners and busine sses to stay in the area sub ject to the final recomm endations coming from the Com mis sion of Inquir y and the decisions based on those recomm endations by the Core Initia tives. There was a guar antee that both homeowners and busi nesses could stay in the area until at least June 25th.

She has requested an extension of that time and I am prepared to recomm end to my two partners on the Core Initiative, the Federal Government and City of Winn ipeg, that they be extended until at least Sep tember 1s t of this year. 12 55 The thir d recomm endation was that if the Core Initiatives decide not to proceed with the expropria tion or to renegotiate the plans for the Logan-CPA area that the busi nesses, homeowners and tenants in the area be informed that there be an effort to accommodate them in the area. Again, Mr.

Speaker, I am prepared to recommend the province's position and I would be prepared to recomm end to the city and the Federal Government that if plans are altered for the Logan-CPA that present tenants, busine sses and homeowners be all owed to stay in the area. The fourth recommenda tion was that tenants who want to stay in their rented premises, even though the properties may have been expropriated and are in the control of the province, be al lowed to stay in the area. That recomm endation has also been in place and through the Winnip eg Regional Housing Authority, tenants are allo wed to stay in their places.

MR. SPEAKER: Order please. We have had one or two instances over the past few days when Min isters have Tabled Reports or made Min isterial Statements at ti mes other than that provided for on the Or der Paper. I'm sure the House would appreciate it if all memb ers used the proper time for making Min isterial Statements or for Tabling of Reports. It is on the Or der Paper and as long as the Hous e wishes it to be there, that's the way it should be. The Honour able Min ister of Consumer and Corpo rate Affairs. MR. KOS TYRA: Mr . Speaker, on a point of order.

Th ere was a quest ion raised to me by the Honour able Memb erf or St. Norbert on Monday asking whether or

Wednesday, 7 April, 19 82 not that report was received and that if the report was received, whether or not I'd be tabling a copy, so I was responding to that question since the report was received this morning and answering his question. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain on the same point of order. MR. RANSOM: Yes, on the point of order, Mr. Speaker. I believe that the Minister should know that when the Speaker has admonished the Minister, the members, or has made a ruling, there is an option open to the Minister if he's not satisfied with that ruling. MR.

SPEAK ER: For the benefit of all members I was merely bringing it to their attention as a reminder that we do have rules that do set down that certain things should be done at certain times. If the House wants to change that they're able to do so either directly or through the Rules Committee. The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin -Russell): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Honourable Minister of Co-operative Development. I wonder can the hon est Minister of Co-operative Development describe to the House, what's a small business. MR. ADAM: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I was in business from the time I was 18 years old and I would consider myself to be a small businessman -(lnterjection) and a small businessman by the same token, you know, I'm sure maybe if the Leader of the Opposition had a grocery store on Main Street, I'm sure they would call him a small businessman too.

And I don't know what the import of the question is, what I con sider to be a small businessman, I would consider it to be a merchant in a small rural town, a small business man; I would consider a trucker in a rural area would be a small businessman; I would consider a fisherman to be a small businessman and a fisherman as well. Mr. Speaker, there are numerous numerous people, entrepreneurs, who are small businessmen and I would say they are far in the majority, Mr. Speaker, in the Province of Manitoba.

And I'm sure that the prov ince would be in a very, very poor situation if we didn't have our small business community out there. They are the backbone, along with the farmers -( Interjection)- MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for his answer. I wonder would the Minister describe the MANCO Plants at Pilot Mound and Rossburn that's closed as small business. MR. ADAM: Well, Mr. Speaker, I understand they have plants in four communities and it's unfortunate - that's a very serious question and we are very con cerned about that - that four were closed and two were subsequently reopened.

There's a very, very weak market at the present time for the products that they produce. Fortunately, Mr. Speaker, some of the dairy men who were supplying milk to those cheese factories, I understand are delivering their milk into socialist land over there in our neighboring province, that are accepting some of the milk that is not being 1256 used by the closed plants. Hopefully, the market will improve and they will be able to open again. I'm not sure whether you would refer to them as small busi ness. I think they're a co-operative and they have branched out in four areas.

I suppose if you looked at them individually, you would probably say they were small businesses. But the four of them together, maybe they'd be a medium-sized business, Mr. Speaker. MR. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In reading from the gospel from Howard Pawley again -(Interjection)- Mr. Speaker, where it says in here that we can provide an economic climate to ensure that small businesses stay in business, can I ask the Honourable Minister what he or his government has done in the last two weeks to reopen those plants at Rossburn and Pilot Mound and put those 35 people back to work. MR. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to advise the hon ourable member that the MANCO people have not contacted my office at any time to discuss the prob lem. I know that they have met with some of the peo ple I've met with. I'm not sure whether MANCO have or whether the dairy producers have met with the Minister of Agriculture. But I'm prepared to meet with the MANCO people anytime that they want to come to visit me in my office. It's room 330 on the third floor. Mr. Speaker, I have said I have an open door, they can come anytime and I'm prepared to meet with them and see if we can't find a solution for this problem.

I think that there may be some alternative. We should be contacting CIDA maybe perhaps, and see if they can't ship some overseas. There's a lot of need for food overseas, Mr. Speaker. But they have not approached me as yet, Mr. Speaker. MR. McKENZIE: A final question, Mr. Speaker. Can I ask the Honourable Minister, is he agreed that the New Democratic Party and the First Minister of this province has misled the people at Rossburn, misled the people at Pilot Mound, and misled all those people that are sitting out there unemployed today? MR. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, that statement is as far from the truth as is possible.

The First Minister has never misled the people of this province. There were 15 major commitments made in the Province of Mani toba and I think that at least 10 of them have been brought into place now. And we're going to run out of commitments, Mr. Speaker. We've only been here for four months and we're going to run out of commit ments before the year's out. I hope the First Minister will slow down a bit and keep some for next year, Mr. Speaker. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Natural Resources.

Does the Minister of Natural Resources intend to have the Manitoba Water Commission involved in any way in studies with respect to the Garrison question? MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources.

Wednesday, 7 April, 19 82 HON. AL MACK LING (St. James): No, Mr. Speaker. MR. RANSOM: Well, Mr. Speaker, that I guess just raises a small question about what's the relevance then of quoting an appointee's qualifications to the Water Commission as being in any way relevant to that appointment if they're knowledgeable about Gar rison. But, Mr. Speaker, would the Minister advise the House of the nature of the meeting which has taken place between the Minister of the Environment and the Minister of External Affairs concerning Garrison? MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, there will be a meet ing tom morrow of the committee that I've alluded to earlier in announcements in this House, and I will be indicating sometime after that meeting the results of the meeting. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister advise the House whether or not the Minister of the Environ ment and the Minister of External Affairs will be dis cussing the report of the International Joint Commis sion and its recommendations? MR. MACK LING: Mr.

Speaker, I've indicated that the committee - that I announced sometime earlier - the committee comprised of: the Minister of the Environment, that is the Manitoba Minister; the Fed eral Minister of the Environment; the Federal Minister of External Affairs; the Minister of Natural Resources; and the Honourable Lloyd Axworthy, Minister of Immigration and so on; and Manpower, will be having a meeting tomorrow and the results of that meeting will be announced in due course. MR. SPEA KER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions having expired, Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DAV MR.

SPEAK ER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. RO LAND PENNER (Fort Rouge): Mr.

Speaker, before calling government business I would like to make two announcements: firstly, as agreed yester day between both sides of the House we will be dis pensing with Private Members' Hour and there will be a showing and description of some technical informa tion on the Crow in Room 254 at 4:30; secondly, I should like to announce for members of the House, and I hope that all members are hear, that shortly following third readings with respect to those bills which are passed on third reading that we expect the Lieutenant Governor to be in attendance for a Royal Proclamation and thereafter we'll be going through second readings as on the Order Paper.

One further announcement if I may. With respect to committee meetings, I have a list of some proposed times for committee meetings and the first three or four are definite, the others may be changed.

But to try and give members of the House sufficient advance notice, the Public Utilities and Natural Resources Committee will be meeting on Thursday, April 15 - well, I think we'll have to change that, we'll scratch that because I now recall that Thursday by agreement 1257 is going to be Friday and it'll be a House sitting - (Interjection) - yes, well I don't have one of those fancy watches that have the days on them.

Thursday, April 15, will be Public Utilities and Natu ral Resources; Manitoba Telephone System on that day; Tuesday, April 20, Public Accounts, Provincial Auditor and Public Accounts, that's finished; Thurs day, April 22, Economic Development, Channel Area and Mooselake Loggers. There may have to be some revisions in this, but I will make a further announce ment on this tomorrow. With respect to the Estimates review in the House following Agriculture, there will be Health, followed by Education.

In committee, following Highways, there will be Co-op Development, followed by Eco nomic Development and Tourism, followed by Cul tural Affairs and Historical Resources, the other departments to be announced later. Mr. Speaker, I'd ask you to call third readings. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain on a point of order. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to the advise the Government House Leader and the House, that it was my understanding that the discussion yes terday with the Government House Leader that he was going to provide the Opposition with a tentative

schedule for committee meetings and that we would together decide what times would be appropriate. Since the Government House Leader is placing it on the record now, I have to advise him that to my knowl edge I have not received that tentative

schedule and certainly I have not had an opportunity to review it and respond. MR. PENNER: I will discuss the proposed

schedule with the Opposition House Leader later on today and make a further announcement in the House tomorrow. Mr. Speaker, would you call the third readings in the order in which they appear on the Order Paper with the exception of No. 9? MR. SPEA KER: The Honou rable Member for Pembina. HANSARD CLARIFICATION MR. DONA LD ORCHARD (Pembina ): Mr. Speaker, I just want to take this opportunity to point out to you, Sir, a missing

section in Hansard of Monday, April 5, 8:00 p. m. At 10:00 debate and discussion on the Esti mates of the Minister of Highways and Transportation were proceeding quite well when the Member for Ink ster moved adjournment, and some concern on the part of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition ensued as to why we were adjourning at that hour. In fact, we called yeas and nays and in fact ended up with a recorded vote that evening. Neither the yeas and nays nor the recorded vote are shown as following the motion put by the Member for lnkster and I would like to have the record show that a recorded vote was taken. MR. SPEAKER: I thank the honourable member for bringing that to my attention.

Wednesday, 7 April, 19 82 THIRD READING Bill Nos. 3, 5, 7, 11 and 13 were each read a third time and passed. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable the Attorney General. MR. PENNER: Yes, Mr. Speaker. While we're waiting for the Lieutenant-Governor, could we just call the Adjourned Debates on Second Reading as they appear on the Order Paper. ADJOURNED DEBATES ON SECOND READING BILL NO. 6-AN ACT TO ABOLISH CERTAIN ACTIONS CONCERNING STATUS OF INDIVIDUALS MR. SPEAK ER: Proposed motion of the Honourable the Attorney-General standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Springfield. The Honourable Member for Springfield.

MR. A. J. (Andy) ANS TETT (Springfield ): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I adjourned this Bill on behalf of the Hon ourable Attorney-General. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable the Attorney General. MR. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I was away on the day when this Bill was called and as I understand it the members of the Opposition were prepared to allow this to go to committee and I would therefore ask that the Bill receive Second Reading. I would move, seconded by the Minister of Energy and Mines. QUES TION put, MOTI ON carried. BILL NO. 10-THE RECIPROCAL ENFORCEMENT OF MAINTENANCE ORDERS ACT MR.

SPEAKER: Bill No. 10, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Springfield. The Honourable Member for Springfield. MR. ANS TETT: Mr. Speaker, once again I adjourned this Bill on behalf of the Honourable Attorney-General. ROYAL ASSENT SERGEANT -AT-ARMS (Mr . Myron Mas on): Her Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor. Her Honour, Mrs. Pearl McGonigal, Lieutenant Governor of the Province of Manitoba, having entered the House and being seated on the Throne, Mr. Speaker addressed Her Honour, the Lieutenant Governor in the following words: MR.

SPEAK ER: May it please Your Honour, the Legislative Assembly at its present Session passed 1258 several Bills which, in the name of the Assembly, I present to Your Honour and to which Bills I respect fully request Your Honour's assent. Bill No. 3,

An Act to Amend

An Act Respecting the Operation of

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act in Regard to Statutes. Loi modifiant la

Loi sur !'application de !'article 23 de l'Acte du Mani toba aux textes legislatifs. Bill No. 5,

An Act to Amend The Law of Property Act. Bill No. 7,

An Act to Amend The Arts Council Act. Bill No. 11 ,

An Act to Amend The Highways Department Act. Bill No. 13,

An Act to Amend The Public Trustee Act. MR. CLE RK: In Her Majesty's name, her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor does assent to these bills. Her Honour was then pleased to retire. ADJOURNED DEBATES ON SECOND READING (Cont'

d) BILL NO. 10 -THE RECIPROCAL ENFORCEMENT OF MAINTENANCE ORDERS ACT MR. SPEAK ER: On the Second Reading of Bill No. 10. The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PENNER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I've read the com ments of the honourable members opposite on this Bill and I'm prepared to discuss it further in Committee. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. BILL N0.12-AN ACT TO AMEND THE FAMILY MAINTENANCE ACT MR. SPEAKER : On the adjourned debate of the Hon ourable Attorney-General, Bill No. 12. The Honourable Member for Springfield. MR. ANSTETT: Once again, Mr.

Speaker, I adjourned this Bill on behalf of the Honourable Attorney-General. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PENNER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I've read the com ments of the members opposite and I'm prepared to discuss this bill further in Committee. QUES TION put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. PENNER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, would you call Second Readings please on Bills 16 and 17?

Wednesday, 7 April, 19 82 SECOND READING BILL NO. 16 -AN ACT TO AMEND THE FATALITY INQUIRIES ACT MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable the Government House Leader. MR. PENNE R presented Bill No. 16,

An Act to Amend The Fatality Inquiries Act for Second Reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, by way of explanation, The Fatality Inquiries Act requires a medical exa miner to take charge of the body, inform the police and make diligent inquiry respecting the cause and manner of the death of any person who dies in a mental hospital. The experience over the years indicates to us that well over 90 percent of the persons who die in mental hospitals die of natural causes.

Where the medical examiner is satisfied that a person in a mental hospital has died of natural causes, there is no need for any further inquiry in accordance with The Fatality Inquir ies Act. Last year and again this year - in fact just yester day - the report of the administrater required under

Section 29. 1 of The Fatality Inquiries Act has included the names of all persons who died in correctional institutions, jails, prisons or while in voluntary resi dence of any institution in the province and, of course, that would include certain mental institutions. Now this, that is the revelation of the actual names, has caused unnecessary and embarrassing publicity for the relatives and family of the deceased. It's an invasion of their privacy and unfortunately, prejudice still exists as we know, with regard to mentally ill persons. Mr.

Speaker, we propose to amend the Act to repeal the requirement that the names of these persons must be reported. That is, there would still be a statistical report, but the actual names would not be reported. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. MERCIE R: Well, Mr. Speaker, unless there is anyone else who wishes to speak at this time, I would move adjournment, seconded by the Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Gov ernment Services. BILL NO. 17 - THE PROCEEDS OF CONTRACTS DISBURSEMENT ACT, 1981 HON.

SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnel) presented Bill No. 17, The Proceeds of Contracts Disbursement Act for Second Reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Minister of Gov ernment Services. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, under terms of the con struction order, namely No. 4055, with D&D Sand and Gravel and Rental Ltd. for gravel base course on the St.

Laurent access road and Construction Order No. 4535 with respect to Golden Gate Homes Limited, again for the supply, crushing, loading and stockpil ing of aggregate for bituminous pavement, an amount of $1 7, 167. 34 and $2, 930 respectively, was held back until the contractors had paid certain debts arising out of the construction orders. In the case of D&D Sand and Gravel, the work con tracted was completed in September of 1979. In the case of Golden Gate Homes Limited, it was com pleted in 198 1.

Because of the subsequent claims made against the contractors related to work done under the construction orders, the holdback pro ceeds were not paid out and are still retained by the department. Insofar as can be ascertained, neither contractor has taken any steps to satisfy the claims made against them. In the case of D&D Sand and Gravel, the depart ment has received notice of 11 claimants with claims totalling $56,64 7. 88 .. Three of the claimants have obtained a judgment. In the case of Golden Gate Homes Limited, there have been three claims filed amounting to $4,4 51.00.

This bill, of course, facilitates the department in disbursing of those hold back funds in a way that will be fair to those who are making claims and indeed to all concerned, via the trustee. I commend the Bill to the House, Mr. Speaker. 1259 MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. HARRY GR AHAM (Vird en): Would the honour able member permit a question? Would the Honour able Minister tell us why it is necessary to bring for ward a Bill to pay out monies that have been held up under a standard contract that has been in use for years? MR. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Speaker, my advice on that question is, that this is the only proper and legal way in which we can discharge our responsibility and at the same time ensure equity of treatment as between the claimants. That is via trustee pursuant to the Act that we are now introducing. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. OR CH ARD: Just another short question. The Minister mentioned that in the claim against D&D there were three secured creditors, or pardon me, have judgments.

Will those three claimants who have judgments have their claims entirely satisfied from the proceeds of the $17,000 or will there be a disbur sement of so many cents on the dollar to all of them? MR. USKIW: Well, perhaps it escaped the member when I mentioned the figure but the - well, I'm not

Wednesday, 7 April, 19 82 sure about the three - the total claims are $56, 000.00. I can't answer the question with respect to the three claims that have judgments. I don't know the totality of those claims, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. GR AHAM: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Tuxedo, that debate be adjourned. MOTI ON presented and carried . MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Health that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honour able Member for Flin Flan in the Chair for the Depart ment of Agriculture and the Honourable Member for The Pas in the Chair for the Department of Highways and Transportation. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY -HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION MR. CH AIRM AN, Har ry M. Har apia k (The Pas): This Committee will come to order.

We are on No. 6. Con struction of Provincial Trunk Highways, Provincial Roads and Related Projects. The Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVI D R. (Dave) BLA KE (Min nedosa): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I stated earlier when I had a moment, there were one or two things that I just wanted to say on my particular area that will not have too much effect on the present construction program but I know it will maybe help encourage the Minister to ensure that it's in the program for the next year's construction.

As the Minister is well aware, Highway 250 which actually links Souris to Sandy Lake, or Riding Mountain National Park really, if it's taken to the full extent, is a very, very important artery in my particular area and runs through a number of munici palities and a number of towns. Some time ago, when rail line abandonment became a reality, or when it became evident that those rail lines were going to go, and I guess it's a rational judgement made by the companies because there are two main lines running parallel to it, maybe 15-20 miles apart.

But it has created some problems in that particular area, but being aware of what was happening there, the Cargill people have built a fairly large grain-handling facility at Rivers Manitoba on 250, and also another large grain-handling facility at Newdale. The other eleva tors at Rivers and Newdale, of course, have increased the capacity of their facilities there considerably to make those two points pretty modern and adequate grain-handling points.

Of course with the rail lines going out a tremendous amount of that grain has to travel over Highway 250 and some of the arterial roads there, but Highway 250 is the main artery. A number of years ago they formed a Highway 250 Association to promote the reconstruction of 250 and this was started some years ago. With the abandon ment of the lines through the Cardale area, which was a pretty good grain handling point in it's own right, at one or two of the meetings it was decided by the municipal people representing, as I say, several municipalities and several towns that the particular

section of the road from Rivers through to Sandy Lake was going to have the bulk of the traffic and that the particular

section of highway from Rivers North to Newdale should be completed first, should be updated and completed first. That was a first, I think, to see the co-operation of all of those municipalities. Naturally the fellows on the south want their road finished and the ones on the north want theirs finished, but they could see the traffic that was going to be created, and the size of the trucks that were going to be necessary to haul that grain and the road had to be done and that particular area was given some priority. Good work was started on it under the former administration, carried through under ours.

There were some problems last year with bad construction weather and a bad contractor, and one

section didn't get finished as quickly as the others. There has been a

section of it paved from Newdale South to 355, and I might say, Mr. Chairman, just an excellent job of pav ing. The people in there are extremely pleased with it, and I think it was a bit of a stroke of luck before we give the Highways Department too much credit, that they caught a hot-mix machine en route some where and rather than a cold mix they got a hot mix in there. I must say it's a superb job; the contractor did an excel lent job and I compliment them on it. But the

section from the 6. -some - I forget how many kilometres that'll be now - from Rivers north has been a paved road, became very bumpy and it became quite a prob lem for the trucks hauling grain on it. It was just terribly, terribly rough. That was reshouldered last year and, of course, they felt would be repaved -and I understand that has not been in the program this year, it hasn't been possible to put it in the program -and there's going to be a great number of disappointed people there.

I've had many calls from Rivers already, the Chamber of Commerce, and the Minister's likely going to be getting them. 1260 I can understand the problems that they have with trying to shuffle funds around and work within budgets and for that reason, as I say, we're extremely happy that 357 or whatever it is, I just forget the number, 357 on Mountain Road is being graded. That'll complete that from No. 5 right through to 1 O which links with 45, and that makes a route around Riding Mountain National Park for the truckers, which is an extremely important area.

So I have forwarded that to the inter ested people up there and saying, well at least the Minister hasn't forgotten the constituency altogether because there is a fair bit of work being done. The Minister has talked to me privately and assured me that the program will be considered next year, and I know that the Deputy Minister likes to come out and visit that area from time to time, and if the road isn't completed in the next year or so he will come out

Wednesday, 7 April, 19 82 there at his peril, I can assure him of that. But, Mr. Speaker, I wanted to get that on the record that there is going to be some very disappointed people along that road and you will probably be getting a delega tion in to see you and I know you will receive them well and listen to their concerns, but it's an extremely important link in a very, very good strong grain pro ducing area. I know that the Minister will give that every consideration when he's looking at his program for next year. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, I tend to concur with the Member for Minnedosa.

The discussions that I have had, and they are somewhat limited in the sense that there hasn't been enough opportunity to inter face with all of the interested groups, but the informa tion I have tends to convey to me a message, and that is that they are working in a co-operative way towards establishing a fairly good route for bulk hauling, and that is one of the criteria that we are trying to reinforce as a policy, in any event. It very much conforms with that idea and I'm impressed with the fact that it's the right decision.

Now I don't know all of the questions that have to be raised, but from what I know of it I'm impressed that the direction is correct and that I have the belief that we might to be able to proceed with that a year down the road. We do want to complete No. 10 up to Riding Moun tain this year and the member is right, there is a ques tion of finding enough dollars to spread out through out the whole province and one had to make a choice, that can't be helped.

Secondly, I am led to believe that we're not quite in the state of readiness, in any event, on 250 that we could confirm that we could do the whole thing this year, even if we wanted to. So, on the basis of that, I made the decision that we will complete 10 this year and we'll go 250 next year. There is another area there and it's the other direction and that's the east-west direction which is 355. That also appears to merit a tremendous amount of consideration, and we'll be looking at those in tandem. I think there is some work on 355 this year, I'm not certain. There is some, yeah. MR.

BL AKE: I thank the Minister for his remarks. If by some bad fortune in some of his projects this year, that for some reason or other the tenders didn't come in or they couldn't get completed if there was any funds lying around, I can assure him that they would be well received on 250 north of Rivers to Highway 24. I have found in dealing with the municipal people in connection with roads, Mr. Chairman, that the people in the municipal field are very co-operative in acquir ing acquistions of right-of-ways.

They're quite pre pared to go out and talk to the farmers and soothe down the odd one that might be a holdout and do whatever they can to assist the department that way. I've found that if they have some confidence that their

section of roads - each one has a pet

section - if that's going to be completed the year after next or whatever, as long as they can see some program where eventually they're going to have that

section of the road done and tied in, they seem to be reasonable with it. They're quite reasonable people to deal with, and I know if the Minister has problems squeezing some extra funds out of his colleagues on the Treas- ury Benches, that he will get all the support he needs from this side of the House to encourage him along. MR . USKIW: One never knows the state of the summer, in terms of climatic conditions from one region to another.

One doesn't know at this point the state of readiness to do all of the things we think we can do, and there is always the possibility of shifting dollars from one project to another and I take that as a given, Mr. Chairman, so I would not exclude that pos sibility if there was that financial flexibility. MR . CH AIRMAN: The Member for River East. MR . PHIL EYLER (R iver East): Just as a matter of general interest, Mr. Chairman, I was wondering about the relationship of this construction program with the City of Winnipeg.

If the City of Winnipeg would be building major routes inside city limits such as Bishop Grandin Boulevard, would that appear in this Item in the Budget? MR. USKIW: The City of Winnipeg, Mr. Chairman, has their own construction program financed by the City of Winnipeg. The province in return gives the City of Winnipeg a block grant for whatever their needs are, so we are not directly involved in the building of highways within the city limits. I think there are some we have some involvement in. We have some routes that are 100 percent ours but we don't give grants to the City of Winnipeg. MR.

EYLER: Would the proposed Kildonan Corridor would be one of those roads that you're concerned with? MR. USKIW: No, Mr. Chairman. 1261 MR. EYLER: So, if the money was going to come from the province to build the Kildonan Corridor would come from the Department of Urban Affairs? MR. USKIW: Well, if the province was involved in that project I would gather that's the logical route. It would be part of the block grant or a project grant, that's how I would see it, Mr. Chairman. MR . OR CHAR D: Mr.

Chairman, I note that in the pro gram proposals, PTH 23, that's on Page 18 , PTH 23 there's a location study and design and acquisition of right-of-way in the vicinity of Ninette. ls that to try and -(Interjection)- Page 18 , No. 23. Is that the very sharp curb at the top of the hill and the railroad track, that involvement? MR. USKIW: Yes, that's correct, Mr. Chairman. MR. ORCHAR D: I noted on the last page of the new program outline, Page 29, that there is location study and designs being done on two areas of winter roads. A couple of questions stem from that. Are these all existing winter road routes?

The question being, are any of these brand new winter road routes? MR. USKIW: Some of this is to determine whether the existing routes are the right ones so there could be

Wednesday, 7 April, 19 82 some new locations here. MR. ORCHARD: Yes, I understand that but it's not going in to service new communities or communities that previously haven't been served. MR. USKIW: No, that is correct, Mr. Chairman. There are no new communities to service that we're aware of. MR. ORCHARD: The location is to determine the location for a winter road only. Does that include also Bloodvein, Little Grand Rapids, that's just for a winter road? MR. USKIW: Well, as I understand it the studies have to do with these particular areas or locations although that it doesn't preclude others.

The ultimate hope is that the locations that are selected may lend them selves i nventually to an all-weather road construction program but there is no commitment to that at this point in time. MR. ORCHARD: Is all-weather road of one of the proposals that's being considered under the North lands Agreement to have joint federal-provincial funding and are Northlands into that? MR. USKIW : We are not aware of that at this point in time although that's something that the other depart ment would have to be addressing itself to, Mr. Chairman. MR.

OR CH ARD: On the Easterville Road at one time we had some hopes that we might include that in a new North lands Agreement, and although there was considerable pressure to upgrade it at all times, we had some hesitation in proceeding until we had a Northlands Agreement finalized and the exclusion of that road by the federal negotiators in a new North lands Agreement. Do we assume that by its presence here that it has no chance of becoming part of a new Northlands Agreement? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, that's an old, old chest nut, if you like. I recall that discussion, I guess a decade ago.

I don't believe there was any desire then on the part of the Government of Canada to include the Easterville Road in the Northlands package, I'm assuming that there continues to be no desire on their part and that's the reason why we are proceeding with it. I don't think that it's an acceptable component to the Federal Government with respect to Northlands. We have made the decision, Mr. Chairman, to proceed with a

section of it in any event. MR. BA NMAN: I believe this is the

section where we can ask some specific questions with regard to some of the projects that are underway. I guess my first question I would ask the Minister dealing with the No. 12 Highway and interchange structures; maybe you could just elaborate a little bit on page 17 of the doc ument he filed, we show interchange structures, two, and then just below that you show another four struc tures; I wonder if the Minister could just briefly explain what's involved in those two projects. 1262 MR. USKIW: I am advised, Mr.

Chairman, that there are four structures over the Trans Canada, and two structures over the railway that are involved. MR. BA NMAN: I think the railway work has been done. It was done last year, I think, over the railway track. I think it was in last year's Estimates. MR. USKIW: The four structures are for drainage works between the railway and Trans Canada. MR. BANMAN: So the interchange structure, that would be the one right at the junction of 12 and No. 1, and the four structures would be box culverts or whatever is required. I think there's a couple of major drains that run through there and I guess MR.

USKIW : Yes, that is correct. MR. BAN MAN: I wonder, the road work; will that be completed this summer, in other words, the paving of the stretch from the Seine River diversion to the No. 1 Highway? MR. USKIW: Not the paving, Mr. Chairman, there will be construction. You will notice on No. 12 that this is in the other area. It's 402 to 208 there's a stretch of pavement, but in the area the the member questions, I believe it's construction only. MR. BA NMAN: So the grade that has been con structed will more or less be left like that this year? MR.

USKIW : Yes, I'm advised that it's not completed and that's why we can't go ahead with the pavement. There is no particular holdup on it. It's just that's not ready for it. MR. BAN MAN: Has the department got any timing when they think the interchange structure will be completed? Are there tenders being let shortly? MR. USKIW : Yes, I am advised that it will take at least a year to get the structures built, but the process is underway. There is no holding up of the process. We intend to have ... MR.

BA NMAN: So, it would be fair to say that tenta tively speaking, next spring that structures might be in place and then the final road work finishing off, and the approaches and that would probably be done next year then, which means that we might be looking at a year-and-a-half or so before final completion. Is that sort of a fair estimate? MR. CHAIRMAN: I would remind the members again that we're recording this for Hansard, so would you wait until your recognized before you proceed please? Mr. Minister. MR. USKIW : Well, Mr. Chairman, the intent is to complete that project at the greatest speed possible.

There is no logic in trying to delay any aspect of that, because the logic lies on the other side to the extent that you delay. You're merely wasting the dollars that have already been put in place on that whole system.

Wednesday, 7 April, 19 82 So we intend to proceed as conditions allow us to and expedite to the extent that we can. MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I appre ciate those words. It is of great importance to that whole area to get the interchange and the whole structure going. I'm pleased to see that the inter change is coming in this year because it's one of those sections on the Trans Canada Highway that's pretty busy and I'm surprised that we haven't had more acci dents and more problems there. I'm gratified to see that happening. With regard to two other areas: the PR 210 from Giroux to Ste.

Anne, it says 2nd Lift Construction Gravel. Would this be sort of the final phase before we put in any ... MR. USKIW: What page are you one? MR. BAN MAN: Page 20. MR. USKIW : Yes, this highway was built last year and it's going to have its 2nd Lift Construction Gravel applied this year. MR. BAN MAN: Would this mean that maybe in a year or so, after the 2nd Lift is put on, without too much extra aggregate you could put a cold mix on or some thing like that, like we've done on the rest of the road? MR .

USKIW: The logistics are that if you went to AST you still have to put a base course on so that's still a fairly substantive program, Mr. Chairman. You can't move to a hard surface from this stage, there is one more stage before you can hard surface. MR. BAN MAN: I guess the same thing would apply to Highway 311 that was just constructed last year which is seven miles - on page 23 - we've got seven miles from PTH 59 to the PR 206 for the 2nd Lift. MR. USKIW: Yes, that is correct, Mr. Chairman. MR. BA NMAN: Is it usually a good practice to wait a year or two for the roadway to settle before you put a mix on? MR.

USKIW: Well, it's common practice and it appears to make sense, Mr. Chairman. MR. BA NMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: No. 6.- pass. The Member for Pembina. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I note that the con crete lanes are going in on No. 7, it's about a five-mile stretch; the long range planning there allowed land acquisition for an interchange. Is that in the planning stage right now, the interchange with the Perimeter and the four lane structure into No. 7? MR. USKIW: No, Mr. Chairman, there is no particular plan at the moment to develop an interchange at that location. 1263 MR.

ORCH ARD: Could the Minister indicate the pro gress to date on the Split Lake to Gillam Road which construction was initiated last winter? MR. USKIW: Well, I do know that the contracts were let. Grading and gravel operations to date are meeting expectations, that's where it's at. Everything appears to be ready for summer operations which include consolidation and initial graveling and that should commence in the early part of Ju ne, of course, depending on the climate. The clearing and grubbing is 100 percent complete; the winter grading sho uld be finished by April 6. The north

section has another 3. 5 miles of grading which will be completed under summer work activity. This of course is in very rough, rolling terrain, involving large cuts and fill sections and so on, and sand. The southern

section was joined up and they were working south completing sections that were padded up earlier. The gravel contracts will complete all of the summer and accessible stockpiles. There seems to be no problem with gravel supply for the summer consolidation. The contractor has been working on both contracts simultaneously in order to meet his contractual obligations. MR. ORCHARD: Is the road coming in about on budget as we had predicted? MR. USKIW : Yes, it appears to be on-target. It is an hourly bid setup, therefore it's always not certain just where we end up, but it appears to be relatively well on-target. MR.

ORCH ARD: Could the Minister indicate roughly the cash flow in the last fiscal year that would have taken place on that road? I don't need an exact figure, a ball-park figure. MR. USKIW: About $8 million in the fiscal year just completed. MR. OR CHARD: Could the Minister then indicate - last year's figures show some 84.5 million, and of course the Split Lake-Gillam was supplementary supply; could the Minister indicate what would be the approximate final figure of the construction expendi ture for fiscal '8 1-82, the fiscal year just ended? MR. USKIW: About $93. 5 million. MR. ORCHARD: Thank yo u, Mr.

Chairman, that MR. USKIW: There's also 2. 8 million of holdback additional to that, but that's not construction. MR. OR CHAR D: That gives me a better idea of the kind of funding ... MR. USKIW: ... Oh, that's included - I'm sorry, I'm confusing the member. The 93. 5 includes that hold back amount. MR. OR CHA RD: Are there any projects in the carry over that have run into some unusual snags and have to be cancelled?

l#ednesday, 7�il, 19 82 MR. USKIW : Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm not aware of which ones they are; there may have been. There's com mitted carry-over and noncom mitted carry-over and of course, in the committed -carry-over, I' m not certain if there are any holdups. Apparently, there might be so me with respect to right-of-way and· so on, in the committed carry-over. MR. ORCHAR D: Any of the nonco mmitted carry over that are running into snags and might have caused them to be withdrawn from the program? MR. USKIW: I think, Mr.

Chairman, the member wants to determine the logic of not going ahead with all of the noncom mitted carry-over; I presume that's his line of questioning. I think I could satisfy him by saying that was based on the discretion that had to be used in the allocation of funds throughout all of the regions of Manitoba within the $1 00 million that has been allocated. It's not related to any particular tech nical problem that I'm aware of. MR.

ORCHARD: Then, would there be people who have seen the.Ro ad Program and there's no contract com mitments, would the Minister expect a reason able expectation that those projects could go ahead this coming year as has been past practice? Always, the program is overbudgeted for very obvious rea sons in the department. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, we haven't arrived at the stage where we can somehow determine a prioriza tion of projects. I presume that's one of the things we will do after we have completed this process.

I have yet to beco me fully acquainted, quite frankly, with the totality of the Construction Program and its schedul ing. We have not had time to do that kind of review, so I can't really say here that everything that's there in carry-over is going to go ahead for sure against other projects or vice versa. That would be subject to review subsequent to this exercise here, Mr. Chairman. MR.

ORCHARD: Will the department be establishing as they have in the past couple of years, potential tendering schedules for the industry to have them sort of advance notice for say six, seven weeks in advance as to the nature of projects coming up so they can better plan their work scheduling and their ability to bid and tender on those projects? MR. USKIW: I believe, Mr. Chairman, that will flow from the discussions that we have on the scheduling of contracts or the review of the scheduling.

There's no reason not to pass on that information because it would be helpful to the industry which does have to plan its program. So I see nothing wrong with continu ing with that procedure. MR. ORCHARD: That's all the questions I have, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: No. 6. -pass. Resolution No. 85.

BE IT RESOLVED THAT there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 00 million for Highways and Transportation for Con struction of Provincial Trunk Highways, Provincial Roads and Related Projects for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 198 3-p ass. No. 7. Air/Radio Services. 7. (

a) Salaries. The Member for Pembina. MR. ORC HARD: I'm just.l ooking for my little list. I don't believe there was any change in the staff co rn� plement at Air/R adio Services. MR. USKIW: Well, there is a change because of the delivery of the CL-215 water bomber, so there's going to be two additional staff. No, there's more than two. I'm sorry, I'm jumping ahead of myself. No, there are two radio technicians. That's right. I'm one step ahead here. MR. ORC HARD: Two radio technicians? MR. USKIW: Two new radio technicians provided for. MR.

ORC HARD: Do I assume with the third water bomber coming on stream this spring, that we have an adequate pilot complement to ... MR. USKIW: There will be supplementary Estimates to reflect the delivery of the water bomber and I believe the staffing. ls that correct? Yeah. MR. ORCHA RD: When is it expected the third water bomber will be arriving? MR. USKIW: I believe we have received it, haven't we? It's May 1st, Mr. Chairman. 1264 MR. ORCH ARD: What supplementary staff comple ment are contemplated to accomodate the additional aircraft? MR.

USKIW: I think it's five, yes, five staff man years are involved in staffing and, of course, there's the balance due on the purchase which is $3. 2 million. MR. ORC HARD: The balance due is $3.2 million? MR. USKIW: Yes, $3, 234, 400. 00. MR. ORCHA RD: I thought we'd paid more than that down. That brings the purchase price, in total, to what, then? I thought we had put more money up in the last two years than that. MR. USKIW: About $4.7 5 million, Mr. Chairman. MR. ORCHARD: Does the Minister expe.ct that will sufficiently complem ent the water bomber fleet, that we should be able to get by with just the three? MR.

USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I really couldn't answer that with any degree of intelligence. I have not had an opportunity to review that whole package, something that we will be doing between Sessions. A review of where we have been policywise with respect to the whole Air Division and where we might want to go is yet to be decided. Again, I remind the Member for Pembina that this item was a fock�-in item pursuant to a purchase

Wednesday, 7 April, 19 82 order that was made a year or so ago - is it two years ago? So this is not a departure or a policy initiative on our part, it's merely what's been in the pipeline, and what we do from here in will be determined after we've had a thorough policy review. MR. ORCHARD: Is there any option for a purchase of a fourth aircraft attached to the purchase of this one? MR. USKIW: Apparently not, Mr. Chairman. Just while I have the floor though, I would like to correct the figure that I gave to the member. The purchase price was $4. 312 million and the balance owing is $3.234 million. MR.

ORCH ARD: Thank you. The MU-2 was under repair after a heavy landing. Are those repairs com pleted now? MR. USKIW: Yes, the MU-2 has been received back on-site of the Air Division. MR. ORCHARD: Is it the Minister's intention to utilize the MU-2? MR. USKIW : There is another area of policy, Mr. Chairman, we have yet to determine the future of the MU-2 and that is, of course, whether we keep the aircraft for whatever use we have for it, or whether we sell it and purchase a different type of aircraft, or whatever. That decision is pending but we have not come to a conclusion on the discussions. MR.

ORCHAR D: The Cessna Citation Medi-Vac plane, has it been operating well and is the Minister reason ably satisfied with its operation? MR. USKIW: It appears to be. I know that the Minis ters appreciate very much the swiftness of that air craft. The efficiency of time in moving Ministers from place to place has certainly been demonstrated.

I gather that it does a fairly decent job of moving patients though from one area to another, namely, from the north, in particular, in a very swift and effi cient manner which is the intent, of course, and that is the No. 1 criteria, as I understand it, providing the ambulatory service that it provides. MR. ORCHARD: I wonder if the Minister might pro vide -I doubt if he'll have them here, but if he could provide me at a later date -the number of ambulance missions flown by the Citation in the last fiscal year. MR.

USKIW: It's really not to be referred to as an ambulance; it's air patient evacuation, I believe, is the term. I don't know if we have the figure here or not, but I recall a figure mentioned to me not very long ago of something in the order of 28 0 or 290 trips during the course of a fiscal year. MR. ORCHARD: I wonder if the Minister could under take to provide that medi-vac flight count for me and the number of patient moves; and also if he could provide at the same time the non-medical use of the Citation, the number of trips for non-medical pur poses that it's been utilized for. 1265 MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, from January 1 to December 31 st of 198 1, the Air Division transported 28 9 patients and 293 escorts for a total of 239 flights. For non-medical reasons, I don't know if we have that. MR. ORC HARD: I thank the Minister for the informa tion on the patient flights and if he could provide the non-medical use at a later date that would be fine. MR. USKIW : There is a list here, but this is for all aircraft. MR. ORCH ARD: The aircraft fleet, there's no addi tions other than getting the MU-2 back and the new water bomber? MR. USKIW: That's correct, Mr. Chairman. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

There was some considerable discussion, by resolution as a matter of fact, in the House last year to station the medi-vac aircraft, the Citation in this case, in Thomp son. Has the Minister had an opportunity to pursue that policy? MR. USKIW: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. OR CHARD: Will the Minister be pursuing that policy? MR. USKIW : Again, I refer back to a statemenUmade a few moments ago, namely, that the whole operation of the Air Division will be reviewed between Sessions, so to speak, so if there are going to be any policy changes they will become relevant in next year's Estimates review. MR.

ORCHARD: Will that policy review take a look at the interdepartmental charges for aircraft use by departmental staff and personnel. MR. USKIW : I believe there has been an implementa tion of new rates already, the charge to other depart ments. I can't recall the changes that were made. It varies depending on the aircraft that is used of course. MR. OR CHARD: Could the Minister provide me,with the new rate

schedule if it's been established? MR. USKIW : Yes, that's fine. MR. ORCHARD: The Other Expenditures, I would take, reflect once again a fairly substantial increase in fuel costs. MR. USKIW : That's correct. By and large, the energy related component is what has inflated the Other Expenditures. MR. OR CHARD: Does the Recoverable from Other Appropriations reflect a new and presumab l y increased

schedule or is that simply based on the old rates but reflecting an increase in usage? MR. USKIW : The recoveries will logically reflect the new rate because the aircraft is merely a service to all

Wednesday, 7 April, 19 82 agencies of government, so the chargebacks are there and whatever the costs of operating are will be reflected in the rates that are being charged. MR. ORCHAR D: So I take it from the Minister's answer that the $1,57 5, 000 is a rate of recovery fixed upon a new rate schedule? MR. USKIW: These figures include, Mr. Chairman, if I may, the additional aircraft. The cost figures that we are talking about now includes the operational end of the new aircraft. -(Interjection)- yes. MR.

ORCHARD: Then the Minister has indicated that the $200,000 increase in recoveries reflects now hav ing the MU-2 back on the flight roster as well as an additional water bomber. So then, the recovery doesn't reflect the new rate

schedule then. MR. USKIW : No, Mr. Chairman, I alluded to the expense side of the ledger where I said the expenses shown incorporate the two other aircraft under (b) . Recoveries for the utilization of aircraft which show a $200, 000 increase represent the Northern Patient Air Transportation Revenue, which in previous years was credited to General Revenue, and that's based on the old rate. MR. OR CHARD: I'm making an assumption that may be incorrect, that the rate

schedule has gone up. MR. USKIW: That's right. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Then it would be safe to assume that the Recovery in the fiscal year ending '83 will be probably higher than the $1 ,5 75,000 reflecting new rates charged for use of the aircraft. MR. USKIW: Yes. MR. ORCHARD: I recall a study that was ongoing -I think it was Government Services - had implemented a study whereby they were contempl ating an amal gamation in the radio section, the communication section. Has anything proceeded past that early study stage on that? MR. USKIW: No. we have not had any discussions on that subject, Mr.

Chairman. Again I remind the Member for Pembina that that is based on the decision which was made that we are going to proceed with the ongo ing program and the estimates of that program, and that all of the policy areas would be set aside for an intercessional review process, shall we say. MR. ORCHARD: So, is the Minister say ing that the intercessional policy process will be taking a look at this proposal or suggestion by Government Air Servi ces of amalgamating a radio section? MR.

USKIW: I'm saying that there will be a thorough review of the operations of the Air Divisio n which that may be a component of, but I'm not at all knowledge able or familiar with that particular aspect of it. MR. ORC HAR D: I don't have any further questions on that section. MR. SPEAK ER: The Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just one question to the Minister and I know it's not to do with the subject. I just wondered - looking at the new impressive road map - I wondered if all the other ones were done away with. MR. USKIW: I really don't know how many there are.

The maps are distributed by Tourism, so I really don't know what they are doing. MR. BLAKE: When they were previously changed I was able to acquire some with the picture of my col league, the Member for Lakeside on it and I made good use of them in the filling stations out home and they were very well received and I just wouldn't want to see them go out to the garbage dump or something of that nature, with that fine smiling face that was on them before, replaced by another handsome gentleman. But, Mr.

Chairman, under Air Services, I wonder if the Minister could give us some indication if there is - and I realize it's policy - any indication that they may be going back to the former policy of acquiring considerable additional aircraft to form a fleet that is busily engaged in the North and did a lot of transpor tation and passenger work up there which rightly or wrongly could probably or maybe attributed to some small degree to the financial collapse of a fairly large airline up there.

I wonder if he could give us some indication if there is any feeling of returning to acquir ing another 10 or 15 aircraft for use in the North? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, I don't believe that the role of the Government Air Division would have con tributed to the collapse of an airline, because I don't believe the use of the aircraft was a use which would have been facilitated by sort of scheduled air flights from one community to another - trying to recall at least the nature of the Northern Development pro grams - although there may have been some of that, but I don't bel ieve that would have caused the demise of any particular airline.

I would think thatthe policy that will come out of the review process would have to logically relate to effi ciencies, if you like, as to whether or not we can better accommodate our needs via additional aircraft or whether there is some other route that makes more sense. I have no preconditions in mind. My opinions are quite open on that subject.

But I will want to know the expectations in terms of the total involvement of all departments with respect to the North, in particular; and how that will effect the need for new aircraft, if we are going to consider new aircraft. 1266 Also related to that question is the water bomber question which may have resolved itself by this time. I don't know. But I will want to know what our costs are, the proportionality of in-house capacity as opposed to outside contracts and so on, and where we come out better financially. All of these things have to be looked at.

Wednesday, 7 April, 19 82 MR. BLAKE: One of the comme nts in the Nor thern area was that it was much easier to get coffee at the coffee bar in the Thomp son air terminal now because there weren't nearly as many Mani toba Air Division staff sitting around there all morn ing with the reduc tion in the ai rcraft. Ther e certainly is a function for them in the Nor th and I think there are enough operators up there now that have demonstrated that the job can be done without the addition of that many more Government Air Service aircr aft.

I think a certain numb er are necessary to carry out the functions of some of the departments that are very very active in the North but I appreciate the Min ister's remarks and we'll be watch ing with inter est to see the growth or the contin ued mai ntenanc e of the present level of ai rcraft in the Air Divisi on. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Memb er for Rhineland. MR. ARNOLD BROWN (R hineland): Thank you, Mr .

Chairman, I just have a few questions in the question ing that had been done previously, to find out that the MU -2 has also been involved in this appropriation over here and I wonder, could we have a breakdown of (

c) Recoverable from Other Appropriations? Could we have a breakdown as to how much you would be receiving from the Depar tment of Health and I'm sure that you're using some water bom bers in Natu ral Resources? MR. USK IW: No, Mr. Chairman, that is not possible because what we are showing here is an estimate of what will occur over the next 12 months. What the member really would want is the history of what has occurred in the last 12 months. I'm sure that can be brought forward but it's the kind of thing that is nor mally a subject for an Or der for Return. We don't have the projected Recoveries by department.

MR. BROWN: You don't have those figur es here at the present time then? MR. USKIW: We don't normally project departmental usage. We base it on last years occurrences and then whatever new items are thr own in we either add or subtract. MR. BROWN: That's fine. MR. ORCHARD: Just one short question to follow up the Memb er for Min nedosa.

Should the Minis ter determine that possibly an additional ai rcraft or two may be needed, is the Min ister going to investigate the potential of charter or leasing arrangements with, for instance, a northern carrier or a northern ai rcraft company that's already in busine ss servi ng the north? MR. USKIW: I would just ask the member if he would repeat the quest ion. I didn't get the fir st part of his question. MR.

ORCHARD: If the Min ister, in his review over summ er, at the urgings I would presume of possibly some of his col leagues, a determi nation is made that additional ai rcraft are needed, would the Mini ster be 12 67 entertaining proposals from northern ai rcraft owners and operators and northern ai rcraft compan ies, char ter compan ies, to contract that service rather than bring the governmen t into the ownership of another ai rcraft or two? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, I suppose the mem ber is referring to charter service and really what will have to take place is we will have to determine how much charter service requir ements we would have in the total system and then weigh against that the advisabil ity of purchase versus contr actual arrangem ents with exis ting carriers, in terms of the econom ics of it. That makes logic to me and I would think that we would go through that process before we made a decisio n.

As I say, I have no fixed opin ions or viewpoints with respect to how we service the geography of this prov ince vis-a-vis the Air Divi sion operation, whether it's totally within in-house or in-house and partly outside or whatever combi nations work. Th ere are no pre conceived ideas on that point. I just want to get back to the Memb er for Rhineland. I do have here a sheet on the usage of ai rcraft by department dating from January 1, 19 81 to Dece mb er 31 , 19 81 and, of course, it does involve virtually all departments. Total hours of use was 6,2 61. 4 and total mi les was 942,935.

That's the global figur e. MR. ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, the reason I suppose I'm posing the question about what di rection the Min ister may proceed if additional ai rcraft are required is, I suppose, a two-fold concern that I might have. For in stance, I think the temptation to use an ai rcraft that you own is much gr eater than if you are going out and arranging on a ti me-to- time basis the services of a private air craft owner.

I think it's fairly well-known that there was quite substantial use of ai rcraft in the early '70s of all sorts and the fleet of Govern ment Air Division was double what it is today and it's not been pointed out to me that there has been any gr eat need for additional air craft. In fact, last year I think we disposed of one that hadn't been used all that much and now with the MU -2 back in service, and I realize the Min ister ind icates he hasn't made a decision on it, but there's already one additional ai rcraft to when the service was deemed to be fairly adequate.

The second reason I posed the question about whether it would be a service undertaken in- house or whether the Mi nister would be willing to retain the services of, say, private sector air craft, I suppose the concern would be that thi s Min ister, in his other port folio, has already demonstrated a clear preference for in- house staff in his hiring of ful l-ti me security staff and, I believe, mai ntenanc e staff as well, with his pref erence clearly being in-ho use operations, rather than more economic al cont racted services from the pri vate sector.

That's the reason for my questions as to how he might view the private sector's role in provid ing future potential incr eased needs. MR. USKIW : Mr . Cha ir man, the two situations of course are not analogous situations . Ther e are differ ent reasons that one would attribute to the polic y decisions in the other department with respect to staf fing which are quite self-ex planatory, I would think, but I don't mind taking time to more fully explain at the

Wednesday, 7 April, 19 82 appropriate time. The question of aircraft ownership or contracting for aircraft services is one that would have to be based on the merits of the need. Now, I recognize that the previous administration found a need that was much less than was the need before 1977 or 1978 , but it also has to do with the fact that the outgoing administra tion virtually cut off all programming in northern Manitoba.

There was no economic thrust left in northern Manitoba and therefore the need for addi tional aircraft could logically depend on what the economic thrust is in that particular region and if there is an agressive program, federal, provincial or whatever, that probably in itself will determine whether there's a need for expansion in the area of the Gov ernment Air Division. I am not in a position to predict that one way or another.

What I will say though is if the operations of gov ernment are expanded to an extent which we have to make a decision on whether we purchase more air craft or charter existing carriers, that decision will have to be based on a cost-benefit situation. The member suggests that maybe it's not quite as conve nient if you have to fly the regular route as opposed to flying in your own aircraft. There is more that attaches to that consideration than just convenience.

If you are transporting several people, of whatever level of expertise, but usually these are people with a fairly high level of expertise that use the aircraft, you really have a trade-off as between providing the instant ser vice vis-a-vis the normal carrier service and more manpower. That's usually what happens. If it takes you two days to get from point A to point B and back again, rather than one day because of scheduling and so on or the inability to receive that service at a com petitive rate from a private carrier in whatever form, then the decision becomes obvious.

But I'm not in a posit ion to know; I really don't know the numbers that we will be looking at if indeed we are going to review that aspect of it. We are merely a responding agency and if we know that the response requirements have increased by 50 percent or 10 percent or whatever it is, we will be obligated to look at how best we might provide that service, maybe a combination of means that will be employed, some charter and some additional aircraft or it could be one or the other. I have no particular view on it. My opinion is neutral on that question other than we ought to be doing what makes economic sense.

It's just like owning or leasing a building. Many people argue that you can lease cheaper than you can own. Well I've never found that to be true in the eco nomic sense because that may be true on the basis of cash flow on a day to day basis, but when you take into account the value of assets then it becomes another question. I know that the tenant always pays the landlord's mortgage and the taxes and the land lord ends up owning the building. That's historic and it's nothing new, we're all familiar with it. So one cannot argue that it's more economic to be a tenant than it is to be a landlord. MR.

OR CHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, we've had a nice peaceable go at the Estimates and some of the things the Minister indicates, under ordinary circum- stances, might provoke some further discussion and I just might only comment that the Minister indicates that our need for aircraft in Northern Manitoba decreased because we reduced a lot of programming. Well, I suppose that's the kind of meat that elections are won and lost on. But at the bottom line there is a taxpayer and the taxpayer is going to pay for any increased desire by this administration to fly members of various depart ments throughout the province. MR .

USKIW : Or pay more by charter, it's hard to say which way you'll pay more. MR.

OR CH ARD: Or if the decision is made to pur chase an aircraft to make convenient flights for staff and personnel and that analysis, of course, can be justified by using the aircraft more and I think without wanting to stimulate any great debate on the mid Seventies I think aircraft complement was twice the size and flew considerably more hours each and that's why I make the caution that if you get an aircraft or several new aircraft, I know very well that you're going to use them because the demand to use them is always going to be there.

People naturally want to fly up into Northern Manitoba and sometimes the desire is enhanced about the middle of June and later on in the fall when the fishing is good. So if the Minister is persuaded by his colleagues to have more aircraft and purchases the route, I would suggest the use could be then created to justify the purchase, not the very logical way the Minister indi cates it would be done and that is why.

I know we used from time to time charter services when we had, for instance, a Cabinet tour on the go and over the long run that was a much more economic way than to have two or three larger aircraft waiting for the odd Cabinet tour that we would undertake of Northern Manitoba. So our experience -and no doubt the Minister will get that recommendation - has been the leasing from time to time or the purchase of charter service from time to time was, indeed, quite economic to meet the bulges in demand on government air service.

So we'll watch very carefully the moves afoot here because we are indeed awaiting patiently this eco nomic thrust in this new renewed effort in Northern Manitoba. There seems to be some concerns on the horizon about the mining industry and employment in the mining industry now that may increase or decrease the need for government aircraft in Northern Mani toba. That remains to be seen. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't want to belabour this one.

I just want to close my contribution on this item by pointing out to the Member for Pem bina that I had never had a problem in using private carriers, either the regular airlines or the charter service. 1268 As a matter of fact, I was a frequent user of private carriers during the eight years of our government notwithstanding the size of our air division. Very often we had to use private carriers for the lack of ability of our own division to provide the service being tied up elsewhere. So I have no ideological bent on that one excepting the cost of doing it one way or the other.

Wednesday, 7 April, 19 82 MR. CHAIR MAN: 7. (

a) Salaries-p ass-; 7(

b) Other Expenditures-p ass-; 7. (

c) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations-p ass-. Resolution No. 86. RESOLVED that there be granted to her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2, 204, 400 for Highways and Transportation, Air/Radio Services for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March 198 3-p ass. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, might I suggest that it's 4:3 0 before we start on this next appropriation. MR. CHAI RM AN: Committee rise SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAI RM AN, Jerry T. Storie (Flin Flon): Commit tee come to order. We're considering the Agricultural Estimates, Item No. 3, Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation, (1 ) Administration.

The Honourable Minister. HON. BILL UR USKI (Lac du Bon net): Yes, Mr. Chairman, last night we were discussing the matter of applications which were in process during the fall when the Minister of Agriculture, as I understand, had been advised by staff that funds were running out in the corporation; that funds were not available for lending purposes; that those funds would be running out, but staff were still taking applications as I under stand it in the fall and over the winter period for loan applications for the purchase of land. There are some applications which have been processed but not approved.

There were discussions last night as to whether applications are going to be handled by the board, and some accusations. Mr. Chairman, as I understand it staff handle the applications, up until a point staff approve applica tions, or at least they process them at the staff level, pending of course the voting of funds up to 80 percent of assets on the loan with a maximum dollar amount of 200,000 which staff do approve. Any applications over and above any of those two criteria, as I under stand it, have to be referred to the board for approval.

The board, of course, handles those applications, as well as hearing appeals against applications which may be turned down, so that's what I was trying to explain last night, and maybe I didn't get it clear in terms of the process but certainly after the committee rose I was in a position to be briefed better on this aspect and I wish to advise honourable members those applications that are in process will be handled up until the time that an announcement was made.

In fact, that's why I indicated that a review was being made because I did speak to the Chairman of the Board early in December and I will be receiving further details on any applications after that period of time, but certainly all those applications, which were pending at that time when the corporation did not have funds, will be processed in the normal manner. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. DOWNEY : Mr.

Chairman, the concern that I had was that there were funds made available last week when we approved the capital expenditures for MACC, and that there were some applications waiting for approvals of loans waiting on funds to fulfill the com mitment, that should carry on in a normal process. and that wouldn't be changed. If I understand the Minister correctly that is what is happening. Mr. Chairman, the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation have listed in a lot of the newspapers, daily papers, Weekly Co-operator, quite a large number of farm properties. The term of the lease is for one year.

What is the policy behind, or for what pur pose is the land being leased out for one year, either or not being sold, carrying on being sold, or offered for sale by the tender basis or for a longer period of time? I somewhat question the amount of land being leased for one year and not either sold or for a longer period. MR. URU SKI: Mr. Chairman, the member will recall the questions that were raised in this House some weeks ago by, I believe, himself and the Honourable Member for Virden concerning sales of land. The headlines that came out were "Crown Land Sales Stoppe d. " However, Mr.

Chairman, the questions that were raised were raised in relationship to the tender ing of lands that some parcels of land, I think there were 10 parcels of land which were tendered some time in November, I believe, or September, and when we indicated that we were not going to allow loaning capital for land we checked with a number of those applicants who had made tenders or had made bids on the land in question.

A number of those had indi cated to us; in fact I think right now eight out of theten that had bid were desirous of leasing because some of them did have cash flow difficulties and they said that yes once it was tendered we had no option, we would have preferred to lease rather than go out and borrow money, but we had no option because we wanted to have this land, so we did tender.

As a result, when I received that information, Mr. 1269 Chairman, when a question was raised, I recom mended to Cabinet and Cabinet cancelled those sales and as a result these lands were put up on a short term basis pending the review of the policies in terms of how they should be handled in the future, whether there should be long-term leases, whether the whole lease process should be changed in terms of looking at alternatives of leasing, or whether or not they again should be put up for sale and sold. Those are some of the options that will be in the review that we'll be undertaking. MR. DOWNEY: Thank you.

The Minister is aware and knows that these are his Estimates. What is his policy? What is his position on the future of these properties, will he be offering them for sale again? Does he feel committed to that, would he carry on with that policy after he does his review? He personally has to have an opi nion, or a policy as a Minister, and I would ask him for his position on that policy. MR. UR USKI: Mr. Chairman, obviously if I started with a preconceived idea, there is no sense of having any type of a review and any recommendations deal ing with policy.

If I've already made up my mind as to what the policy will be, what is the sense of having a review? This is the reason that the whole aspect of

Wednesday, 7 April, 19 82 land leasing and policies of further credit in the way we manage our credit policy has to be reviewed. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I'm glad that the Minis ter hasn't got a preconceived idea about his depart ment or any policies, that he's quite open to listen to the farm community.

I hope he demonstrates it a little differently than he has when he's introduced a beef marketing board, and the abolition of a lot of the feedlots in this province with his policies, that he doesn't enter into the policies with that kind of a mind that even though he's telling us he hasn't got a pre conceived idea it's just for a matter of the public record that he's . Mr. Chairman, there's an area that I want to spend a little more time at and maybe my colleague, the Member for Turtle Mountain has a question pertain ing to this particular point, and I'll yield the floor to him. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, I just wonder if the Minister could first of all advise us what, if any, terms of reference he's giving to the board when they're reviewing policies, does he give them any kind of direction or is the board just simply going to deter mine what policy will be? MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, in this year's thrust and recommendations I've made to the board that the funds that are provided to MACC this year, that the general lending policy of the Corporation be in the direction of loan consolidation, operating capital, and the like; that monies would not be expended for the purchase of land, that we would use to the best of our ability the funds that are available in those areas to assist farmers in making sure they have operating capital and that they become viable operations and continue to be. MR. RAN SOM: Mr. Chairman, I have a fairly specific question I would like to ask the Minister.

This con cerns a piece of land that was tendered for sale last fall sometime. It's Parcel 348 8, I believe, which is the Southwest of 8-4-20 West. I wonder if the Minister can provide me with an explanation of why the sale was not proceeded with? MR. URUSKI: I don't have the details of the specifics of the land, but if that was part of the 10 parcels, I answered his colleague, the Member for Arthur, on the basis of the reasons that the sale was not pro ceeded with. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Chairman, I believe at one point earlier during question period some weeks ago the Minister had indicated that, in some cases, the indi viduals had really not wanted to proceed with pur chase or that the prices may not have been high enough. I'd like to know, in this specific case, what is the reason that the sale was not proceeded with? MR. URU SKI: Mr.

Chairman, the whole process was a 10-parcel process in terms of the way it was pro- ceeded with, and when we spoke, the answer that I gave the honourable member, a number of those people did not have the cash and they indicated that they bid on the basis that they had no alternative but to bid, but they wanted to lease the land because the cash flow was not adequate. As a result, I think that we spoke to five or six of the ten people that were checked and the information came back to me and I said I advised Cabinet and we cancelled the entire process.

Now we are reviewing the policy with respect to all those properties. MR. RANSOM: Is the Minister saying that, had a per son tendered on this piece of land, had the money available, that the sale would have been proceeded with? MR. UR USKI: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the honourable member. MR. RANSOM: The Minister indicated that it was because potential purchasers wanted money through MACC that the sales weren't proceeded with. I'm ask ing the Minister then, that had the individual had other sources of financing, would the sale have proceeded? MR. URU SKI: No , Mr. Chairman. MR.

RANSOM: Well, then it's evident, Mr. Chairman, that the question of financing through MACC was not part of the decision. Why does the Minister tell us it's part of the decision if he then says that really it wouldn't have made any difference, in any case, even if the person had the land? The Minister says he doesn't have any preconceived ideas about how land is going to be handled, but, Mr. Chairman, while it's not for us to question the statement made by the Minister, I can tell you we're going to be examining that statement very carefully as time passes. Mr.

Chairman, the Minister also indicated then that land would be made available on a lease basis; that if the person had bid, and wasn't able to have their bid accepted, it would be available on a lease basis. Has this parcel of land been put up for lease? MR. URU SKI: Mr. Chairman, the people who leased the land the previous year had the first option to con tinue leasing the land, and the lands that did not have a lessee were tendered out on a one-year basis. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Chairman, the question was, was this piece of land tendered out, and was it tendered out on the same basis that the sale was tendered, that being on the basis of a quarter section? 1270 MR. UR USKI: Mr. Chairman, I'll have to take that specific question. We don't have the file or the infor mation here, that I'm advised, but we'll certainly check it and I'll bring the information to the honourable member. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, I would appreciate the Minister doing that; I can tell him what to look for. I think the parcel of land, the legal description, is the Southwest Quarter of 8-4-20 west.

It's my understand ing, Mr. Chairman, I could be wrong, but it's my

Wednesday, 7 April, 19 82 understanding that this quarter

section has now been put up for tender for leasing, tied in with another

section of land, meaning five quarters, so that individ uals who are prepared to purchase the quarter

section of land because it fitted with their operation, are not in a position now to tender for the leasing of this piece of land because it's tied in with another

section which they don't want. MR. UR USKI: Mr. Chairman, I'll check that out and bring the information for the honourable member. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I am somewhat con fused again by the answers the Minister has just given. He just finished telling me, as I understood it, Mr.

Chairman, that if an application had been approved by the management of the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation, that was in the process of waiting for funds; that everything had been approved; the security was in place; that the individuals who already had the approval on the loan; were waiting on funds to be funded through the Legislature to MACC, he ans wered me, or I understood him to indicate, that loan would automatically be processed, without review; that when it went to the MACC the funds would flow and the loan would be consummated and the deal made. In answering, Mr.

Chairman, the Member for Turtle Mountain, he has now told us, regardless of whether or not those funds were there, that the land sales were cancelled; that if an individual had gone outside the MACC to get funds, the land had been tendered, they were the successful individual, that they weren't wait ing on funds. But what he has told us is that those land sales were cancelled and converted to a lease for one year. Mr.

Chairman, we're being told two things here and I think that it would be very important as far as the Committee process of voting funds for a department, that he comes clean and tells us what is happening with those lands that are being sold or were tendered for sale, approved and are waiting for funds, both with MACC and land that was being sold, getting funds from other lending institutes.

And, if he has just can celled the policy flat out, then the Member for Morris, who was asking the same question last night, the Member for Roblin-Russell who was been waiting for an answer for a constituent of his, and the Member for Turtle Mountain, we have some consistency as to what the policies are. Mr. Chairman, I would think if the Minister were to look back at the takeover of our administration in 19 77, even though we did not like the State Farm Program, the Land Lease Program, but there were some people who had commitments both from gov ernment and they had made commitments waiting on funds to flow.

We lived up to those commitments, Mr. Chairman. I would hope the Honourable Minister would carry out with that same kind of a feeling of commitment because there is commitment of gov ernment made to do just that. Now, I am pretty much upset if he is telling us two different things and ... MR. URU SKI: Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Member for Arthur is mixing two different things; he's trying to mix two programs into one. Mr. Chairman, what I told 1271 the honourable member were that the applications that were in place when the corporation was out of funds, those loans are being processed.

The issue of the MACC lands that were tendered is a separate issue from the questions that the honourable member raises. Well, Mr. Chairman, the loans that are in place are being processed. The lands that were tendered for sale, that tender was stopped. I told that to yourself and the Honourable Member for Virden when he raised it that those 1 O parcels of land which were tendered were not proceeded with. The loans that are in place now, they're being handled in the normal manner.

The commitments that the member speaks of certainly are being maintained in terms of those applications that are there now in the Corporation. The lands that were tendered, Mr. Chairman, were held pending the review of further policy in terms of how these lands should be handled. MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I understand what the Minister saying but he has told two different things to this Committee. He's saying he's having a review but prior to that review he, through his ideol ogy, has suspended sales of land that are now owned by the Credit Corporation.

So, why would he stand here and say that he's having a review done to look at the policy, when in fact he's already cancelled a sales program that was being handled by the MACC selling the lands of the MACC. So, the point I was trying to make is still there. He is not coming clean with the policies of his government. Mr.

Chairman, I would like to pursue one other area specifically and it's again on the dealing with - and I realize he has indicated to me that the policy is the same as it was; I've asked him to put it on a priority basis as far as looking at the capital gain recovery of the province under the old Land Lease Program where conversions had taken place. I want him to be a little more specific today, because I think it is a little more urgent than what I had maybe laid out to him and it even becomes more important, Mr. Chairman.

I won't go through the whole principle of what we're talking about, the repayment of the capital gain on converted land that over a twenty-year period it would reduce by 5 percent and at the end of 20 years there wouldn't be any payout. There are some people who want to use that land as equity for refinancing or additional capital gain. Could, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister then indicate his particular policy, his feelings as Minister because he has to make the ultimate decision, not the board; the board recommends, I would think to him, but particu larly in light of the commitment that he and his First Minister who is now the First Minister made in an election campaign promise to the people of Manitoba to rebate - this is fairly important because it's a prin ciple that should be applied to the people who are involved in the MACC Program as well, in fact moreso to those people than the commitment they made -t o refund to the farm community the province's share of the capital gain tax that is charged on a farm sale.

Mr. Chairman, I believe it's important that the Minis ter in two areas: (1 ) Where does he stand on the MACC capital gain refund? Does he believe that ... Mr. Chairman, do you want me to read that? Mr.

Wednesday, 7 April, 19 82 Chairman. the Minister. I believe, in principle, and he and the First Minister have commited themselves to refunding a capital gain to people who are not involved in MACC Programs, but anyone who sells their farm will have a refund from the Province of Manitoba for the portion of capital gain that the prov ince would get. Now, I hope that it's not just another broken election promise that we're going to be deal ing with here because that. Mr.

Chairman, that is what we've had to deal with so far this session; the broken election promises that the members of the govern ment are trying to cover over that they are not doing. I would ask the Minister in the light of their statements made in the election promise that they're going to refund the capital gains; in light of the fact that there are some individuals who are in a conversion situation where they've converted the land and now owe money to the province, will he wipe the slate clean for them, Mr. Chairman, so that they do not owe money back to the province on converted land-lease land? MR.

URU SKI: Mr. Chairman, that is part of the overall review that I've indicated that we'll be undertaking, but the member should not try to mix apples and oranges with respect to the Land Lease Program. The member should recall that the lease rates under that program were a subsidized rate in terms of the bor rowing, and as a result the public of Manitoba has invested in those lands and because the lease rate was a highly subsidized rate, that the enhanced value of that asset should not go to the lessee just with the stroke of a pen, Mr. Chairman.

If there has been an enhanced value of that asset, because the people of Manitoba put the money in terms of purchasing that asset and subsidized the lease rates for a long period of time, then they equally should share in any of the enhanced value in terms of when a lessee wishes to take the option to purchase. Mr. Chairman, that is fundamentally different than what the member is speaking about in terms of the retirement income that could be used from the capital gain, that a farmer who is retiring. It is different in this sense, Mr.

Chairman, that the lease rate being subsid ized and the lower rate of operations that the farmer has during his lifetime. he should be able to, and this is the intent of the program to recoup from his opera tion greater funds and greater benefits that he can use through his lifetime in terms of his income from his operation, versus the individual who decides to put up all his capital, borrow the money and invest it into the asset, and then has to take the chance that the enhanced value he will recapture when he retires and decides to sell out.

That's the difference in terms of the philosophy or the policies of those two programs, Mr. Chairman. There is quite a difference with respect to the capital gains portion. Mr. Chairman, that of course the member will have to wait for government policy; budgets handle those kinds of matters. But when the member starts talking about broken prom ises, Mr. Chairman. I take him with a grain of salt in terms of his comments, but his specific question I recog

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-29
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 29.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	eb611cfc5586acb7be3f46bfee2b72d23b702246

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).