PREUHINARY lTNEDITEn TRANSCRIPT House of Assemhly For the period : 3:00 p.m. - n:nn p.m. February 22, 1977

February 22, 1977, Tape 461, Page 1 -- apb The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I should like to '"elcome to the Legislature this afternoon a delegation from the Town Council of Harbour Breton, and the delegation is composed of the l-fayor, Hayor Abraham r.ori~rin, Deputy 't-fayor Claude Fiander and Councillors James Snook, Raymond Noseworthy and Aiden t~ahonev, and they are accompanied by the 'rown Manager, 'Mr. Simeon Fiander. On behalf of all hon. members I Helcome the delegation from Harbour Breton to the House of Assembly. HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: HR. W.

CARTER: Hear, hear! STATEMENTS BY 't-f!NISTERS The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, Nith Your Honour's permission I would like to acouaint the House 'dth the state of the fishery in 1976 and maybe give a few statistics as to the increase in landings, earnings, value and so on. 1976, Mr. Speaker, was an exceptionally good year in the Newfoundland f:l.shing indus try. The total landings '"'ere up by 22 per cent giving a total of 658.4 million pounds which was a 22 per cent increase over 1975.

The value of the landings rose by 29.5 per cent for a total of $56.8 million while export value 1umned hy 32.2 per cent for a record $160 million. The previous record for export value, Mr. Speaker, Has set in 1973 when the Province exported $144 million worth of fish nroducts. The landings of several species showed increases in 1976 far in excess of that of the nrevious vcar.

For examnle: codfish landings increased by 38 per cent for a total of 23fi million pounds: flounder and sole :Increased hy 25 per cent to 176 million pounds 1 and lobster. landinr,s totalled 4.9 million pounds for an increase of 31 per cent over the 1975 catch. 1264.

February 22, 1977, Tape 461, Page 2 -- apb MR. W. CARTER: Maybe, Mr. Speaker. a more meaningful statistic is reflected in the increased value of the various · species in 1976. For exam?le: the landed value of cod was up by 47 per cent over 1975; flounder and sole increased by 36 per cent and the lobster value was up by 33 per cent over 1975. I am pleased to report as well, Mr. Speaker, that the approximately 1R,000 fishermen who were involved in the inshore fishery last year had a most successful season and on an average increased their income by 18 ?er cent over 1975.

It Has an outstanding year for thP.se fishermP.n. I am not suggesting, Mr. Speaker, that things could not he better-indeed, that.must be our objective, to make t"tings better-but despite that 1976 ~1as a good year and the landed value of their catch ~-tas up by 18 per cent for a total of $35.5 million. Mr. Speaker, 1 do not wish to suggest that the Department of Fisheri .es is totally responsible for all of these increases. However I do feel that a substantial portion of the increases results from the programmes and projects that the department has carried out during the past couple of years.

One area in which the de?artment can take credit is in the increased landings of herring and mackerel. Officials of my department have been actively pursuing the development of the purse seining fishery and during the past year a number of longlin.ers,especially along the Northeast coast, equipped themselves with the necessary gear in order to prosecute that fishery. As I told the House a few days ago, this year has been a record year with respect to the granting of loans through the Fisheries Loan Board.

Indeed, I believe the amount of money loaned in 10.76 pretty ~-tell accounts for in excess of 30 per cent of all the money that has been given out by that board by way of loans since its inception back in 1951. 1265

tl . .. MR. W. CARTER: Other areas in which the departmP.nt I think can ri~htfully accept some credit is in the projects undertaken in the St. Anthony area where surveys were carried out on the Tooker Bank, a few mil,es Northeast of St. !>nthony, and located what is believed to be one of the largest stocks of .turbot near our shores. As a result of that sutvey,at l~ast eight other longliner crews took

part in that fishery and in a very short period last Fall landed three ~uarters of .a million pounds of turbot. This resulted in significant increases in income for the fishermen and provided hundreds of man-h.ours of work for the fish plant workers in that area. So, Mr. Speaker, again I repeat, 1976 was an extremely good year for the fishing industry, 1·2 btl I'

February 22, 1977 Tape no. 462 Page 1 - mw HR. H. CARTER: and I am very happy to inform the House that the three ships that are being operated by the Department of Fisheries, the three ~culpin class prototype sixty-five foot dra s gers have been operating on the South~.rest corner of the Province since the beginning of Februarv. And in a period of about seventeen davs these ships have landed alnost a million pounds of fish - SOHE liON. ~fE:,:;3El3-_S: Hear, hear! - ~'lith a landed value of $101,742.

This fish ~vas landed in the fish plants, the Hardy operation in Port aux Basques, 151,584 pounds; Rose Blanche, ~19,000 and Burnt Island, 3Lf3,000. SmfE HON. m::lBEP.S: Hear, hear! HR. ~'l. CARTER: So certainly in that area of t 'w Pro vince it is looking up, catches are good. As a matter of fact~ the catches are record catches. And I only hope, l!r. Speaker, th<>t this ~·dll be, maybe, the beginning of another good year in the fishin~ industry. SQ!.ffi Hmr. ~®ffiERS: Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. CAPT. HINSOR: Mr.

Speaker, I am sure that we are all very pleased to hear the minister's announcement that the productivity in the fishing industry has increased. And what he has said nm.; confirms, I think, what most of us saw the federal representative here state on television a few nights ago. It is almost the exact figures as the minister quoted. This increase in the cod fishery makes one wonder, lrr. Speaker, when we were all clamouring for the 200 mile limit, . the industry was going down, the catch •vas going .down, but all of a sudden it appears that catches along t:1e inshore have increased.

You know, it makes one wonder if the 200 mile limit is going to produce the results that we all expected. MR. CARTER: It should have been better. 1267

February 22, 1977 Tape no. 462 Page 2 - mw Cft.PT. WI NSOR: Yes, '"ith due course. In due time I am sure - and I am sure it is the hope that it will increase providing we do not go too much on joint ventures. That is one thing we have to be cautious of. And there is another area, Hr. Speaker, and I am going to give the minister some credit here for the developing the herring and mackerel industry. I do not think we have nearly reached the potential in that area, and it can certainly augment the earnings of a great many fishermen. if the provincial government were to put more impetus in that industry.

Because, Sir, there is an industry that has been more or less dormant for the past few years. But last year, ana here I am giving the minister full marks, and I would sincerely hope that he would increase his activity in that area, because it certainly meant a great deal to a great number of fishermen. However, there are problems, and the problems are that they cannot seem to find a market.

And I wonder if the minister \vould try to promote the sale of herring and macker el, because there are an awful lot more fishermen anxious to get into that industry who just either cannot get a licence or otherwise they cannot get a market for their product. So, Hr. Speaker, we are very pleased that the minister is convinced now that he, perhaps, for the first time in five years, as Hinister of Fisheries is having an input in the industry, and perhaps with his industry the industry will grow, and I am sure he will get the credit for it. SOME HON. HEHBERS: Hear, hear! 1268

February 22, 1977 Tape 463 IB-1 ~~. SPEAKEP: The hon. ~inister of Forestry and Agriculture. }q>. 1-'IAYNA.'lD: }'r. Speaker, I a'!ll pleased to inform the House th:1.t farmers of this Province will for the first time in 1977 have the option to buy livestock insurance. The Livestock Insurance Act Hhich was passed cluring the last session of the J.epislature has been proclaimed to come into effect on April 1, 1977. Pnder this legislation a ne~.; bo:1.rr'! has been appointed knm,'Il as the Livestock o~,'Ilers Col!'pensation Board and it wjJ J be responsible for administerin~ livestock insurance plans.

The government has established a speci<> .l fund from t--+ich livestock m·mers insured under the p] an Hill re.ceive col:'pensation for their livestock '1-Thich are killed or injurec1 by ilogs or other precll.tors under the terms ani! · con1Utions of the insurance pJan. All livestock owners are required to regjster t~eir livestock "Tith the Livestock o~vners Compensation Board before March, 1977. All applications for insurance rnust be receiver1 bef ·::lre April 1, 1977. The insurance programme is entirely voluntary and a:1y f<>rm T"P..y, if he so desires, insure his cattle or sheep.

There is one stipulation and that is the entire herd or flock must be insure~. accept insurance for part of the flock or the herr:l. T-!e •11ill not The cost of insuring l:lvestoclr for the first ye.'l.r of operation will be as follows: Purebred and registered cattle, $7.50 per head; Unregistered cattle, $5.00 per head; Purebred and registered sheep, $1.00 per head; l'nregisterecl sheep, $0.50 per head. The fee for insuring calves and lambs ~dll be much lower.

Compensation to be paid the o'l-mers of insured livestock for losses cau;:ecl to livestock by dogs or predators durin?. the fiscal year 1977-19/8 PHl be as follmvs: Purebred and registered cattle, $750; Fnregistered cattle, $500j Purebred and registered sheep, $60; l'nregi.sterecl !"heep, $40. Again the co'!llpensation for insured calves and lambs wilJ be at a some,,rhat reduced rate. The Livestock Owners t';ompensat:l .on Fund replaces the Sheep Owners Compensation Account t--'hich ~-r ~ll terwinate on t'arch 2-1. In the past and for the past three years only sheep owners coul .: receive COT"pensation.

There was only an insurance pro?ramme for sheep only. The ne'vl insurance 126~

February 22, 1977 Tape 463 IB-2 ~.fP.. }'AYNI\'P11: progr;~.mme of course :l.ncludes both sheep and cattle. Adilit:l.onal informati.on is avaHable to Uvestock C\~Tfl.ers hy contactinr; any mem~er of the :RoRrd, and I have the nal!'es H.stec1 out here. It is hoped, ?ft. Speaker, that this progra'fT'me ~,rill enable thE' lives_tock farmers in Newfoundland to hecol!'e much more vi.ahle ani! as Fell to be able to ~xpand their operations. SOME HON. NEMBEP.S : Hear, hear! MR. SPF.AKEP.: The hon. wember for St. George's. •·MPS. }'!ACISA.Ar.: 'IA"r.

Speaker, I am quite happy to hear the ann nun cement that there will he a I"ivestock Insurance P] an for the faT!"el:"S. Clver the years farmers haye suffered considerably due to loss of cattle through different causes 1anc1 I am sure that they ,d.ll be otdte happy to know that there is ~oing to he a livestock insurance plan. Ro~·Yever I am net sure that the rates are ~ojng to be of too l!'uch benefit to the farmer. I can see instances ,,7here the insurance j s r-oing to cost the farmer .;. lot more possibly than the loss of hjs livestock ~muld. I had hoped that the rates ,.muld be a little Jess than they are.

But be that as it may, I ~vi] 1 have to discuss th;~t ~vith the farmer and probably they m~y have some input into it. Thank you. SOME HON. ~--'E:r-1BEPS : Hear, hear! PPESENTING PETITIONS : ~fP.. SPFAKEJ': The hon. member for LaPoile. Mr. NEARY: }'!r. Speakel:", it 8ives me ~reat pleasure to present a petition on behalf of 529 voters in the district of the Straits of Belle Isle in the col".I!'Un:lties bettreen Anchor Point and Big Erook. l:~_.Speaker, the prayer of the petition 1270

HR. NEARY: Hr. Speal~er, the prayer of the petition is as foJ lm·:s. I tried to contact the leader, Sir, to make him a1vare of the fact that I 1.ras presenting a petition on behalf of 52'1 of his constituents but obviouslv he seems to he morP. interested in Upper r.;mada these days. Vive la Canada \ .M'R. MORC:AN: Viw• T.cmeaue making a fool of himself up there todav. --~------------- MR.

NF/I.RY: The prayer of the petition, Sir, is: "Because of the manv problems we have been faced with in the hiftht,rays and the Straits of Bell Island due to lack of snow clearing eouipment,"to!e the nndersip.ned people hereby petition the Newfoundland government for more snow clearinp. equipment for this highway .11 :1R.. MORGAN : Near Hary' s Harbour? NR. NEAR¥: No, it is between Anchor Point and Hain Brool:. MR. DOODY: They have not had a member there for years. MR. NEARY: Nr.

Speaker, I am told that over this annroximateJy forty miles of road,which is exposed to the Straits is 'vide open to the !!traits of Flell Island tl-!ere are onlv t1v0 f.'r:ld~rs. They do not have a snmv-1:->lo••er and perhaps the minister might make a note of this- Yes, thev do. ~fr.. NF.ARY: There is a snm,r-hlmver thP.re not,.r? Yes, hecause I remember t·7e talll-ed al:Jout the matter here a coufi)P of ,.reevs a?,o and I supported- I am not sure if t~'.e leader had a peti t5 nn or made some reference to :it anvwav. But anyway, ~ir, these people are very concerned about this situation.

At one point over the last three or four tveeks there were twenty-seven cars jammed in snow banks in this area, and one ambulance, Sir, one ambulance that Has carrvinp. a sick person, 1.ras also stogp..ed in the snow. And so, 'Mr. Speaker, it gives me ~reat pleasure to present this petition on behalf of these 520 peop]P.. I miP,ht say, Sir, that one of the g~ntlemen that circulated the petition l-)as made a su~gestion here. lle sain, "I am a sick man anrl I ~et very litt1e hP.Jp. 'i'hen~fore l wou)d like for the P.C. 1271

February 22,1977 Tape 464 AH-2 MR. NEARY: government to send me $10 a day for going from door to door to circulate this petition • "And he said,"if the government cannot afford this"- MR. SMALLWOOD: They will, they will, they will not hesitate. HR. NEARY: No, I know .And I 1;7ill be g~.ad to deliver it personally and the hon, the Premier, might make a note of this; he said , "If the government cannot afford to send me this amount ~then send me a few pens because I have mine all worn out~' So Hr.

Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to lay this petition upon the table of the House and asked that it be referred to the department to which it relates and I trust, Mr. Speaker , that there \vi. U be other mem.hers that will support this petition on both sides of the House. MR. SPRAKER: Hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Hr. Speaker, I rise to support the prayer of the petition as presented by the hon. member for LaPoile on hehalf of the over 500 residents in the area.

If fact we all.,ohviously~support it,and I hope that when t"e petition is tabled to the department to which it relates, obviously the Hinister of Transportation and Communication,I hope will rise and support it and Hhether he is in a position to send $10 or whateyer the amount required is that is involved in the tail end of the petition -or is it pens or hens you said? HR. NF.ARY: Pens I said. MR. NOLAN: -That he will also endeavour to ans\ver that request as well.

But He certainly support the prayer of the petitio~ by the residents not only t-Tho s:!.gned it ,but for all who may not have signed it or had an opportunity to do so, in this area which is so far removeci - HR. NEARY: Which is the majority of people. MR. NOLAN: lofuich is the majority of people~as the hon. member suggests. So we \vholeheartly endorse the prayer of the petition, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any other petitions. 12 "12

February 22 , 1977 Tape 464 AH-3 1-!R. SPEAKRR: The bon. gentleman from Fortune-Hermitage. HR. J . tH ~s n R : Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of some thirteen settlements in my district. The~se settlements are the Town of Gaultoi.s, the Tmm of Hermitage , the Town of Seal Cove, the Town of Harbour Breton, The J.ocal Improvment District of St. Jacques -Coombs Cove, the Town of Pools Cove, the Town of Belleoram and English Harbour East,there is also a town council there.

These petitions are signed by 2634 persons and the prayer of the petition is the same for all of them." We the Town Council of SQ-and-So supported by X number of persons do hereby petition Her Majesty's government to institute an ongoing programme of upgrading and paving of all roads to the communities 1273 access

... February 22, 1977 Tape 465 PK - 1 Hr. J . tUns or: of the Conniagre Peninsula and the Fortune Bay area to be completed over the next two years. It is becoming increasingly evident that the development and economy of these areas have been seriously impeded due to the inferior quality of all access­ roads. It is further evident that the economical operation of several fish processing operations has been and continues to be seriously impeded.

This has reflected on the income of workers in these plants, and we appeal to the Minister of Transportation ,... and Communications for full and understanding consideration of the prayer of this petition~ 1 In supporting this petition I should point out, and I do not think it is all that neces£ary for me to point it out . because the number of signatures on these petitions indicates a great deal of dissatisfaction bv the people in my district, coupled with a petition I presented previously of 940 names, there is a total of 3,574 names on these petitions which represents more than one-third of the total population of my district, 3,574.

It is clearly evident that the economy of the whole area has suffered by the lack of a well organized programme of building roads, and upgrading, paving and so on. I do believe that there was a programme designed by the engineers in Transportation and Communications, but that programme has never been fully and completely carried out. I therefore have much pleasure in supporting this petition, and I ask that it be placed upon the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Port au Port. MR. J.

HODDER: I would like to support the petition . which was just delivered by my colleague from Fortune-Hermitage (Mr. J. Winsor). I th~nk this petition certainly shows the need for improved services in the Fortune Bay area. I believe my colleague said that there are some 2,6rO signatures, and I understand that there was an earlier petition for 940, and I believe that this must certainly show the Minister of Transportation and Communications that something is 1274

February 22, 1977 Tape 465 PK - 2 Mr. Hodder: amiss in this area. It is also remarkable that so many towns in this particular area have gotten together, there is a certain unity there which, I think, is a unity because of need. I feel that if New·foundland is to benefit commerically and through Tourism~we must have an adequate transportation system. And this.is not to mention, of course, the hardship which is caused to the people and the expense to the residents of this area.

And I believe that the roads of this Province are fast deteriorating, and I think it is time that we took steps in order to have both preventive main­ tenance and that we have an organized and orderlv road bui1dinP programme in this'Province. SOME HON. MEHBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: MR. J. DINN: PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COM}UTTEES The bon. Minister of Hunicipal Affairs and Housing. Hr. Speaker, I would like to present the annual report of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation for the year ended Harch 31, 1975. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN HR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Hinister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: Hr. Speaker, I have an answer to a question asked by the hon. member from LaPoile (Hr. Neary) last Thursday or Friday, I am not sure which, it was late last week. MR. NEARY: Thursday. ~m. H. COLLINS: Thursday, concerning the number of cases of meningitis in the Province. For the year 1975 there were twenty­ two cases reported, and in the year 1976, seven cases were reported. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. :!o$. A. HICKMAN: ' Hr.

Speaker, the answer to Question No. 89 on·the Order Paper of Tuesday, February 10, 1977, asked by the bon. member from LaPoile, I have referred that question to my hon. colleague, the Hinister of Transportation and Communications as it is his department to which it relates. 12 'i 5

February 22, 1977 Tape No. 466 MR. SPEAKER: MR. NOLAN: ORAL QUESTIONS : The hon. member for Conception Bay South. Mr. Speaker, a question for the ~finister of Finance, and I ask it due to the absence of the Mi3ister of Manpower who might also have been involved, and that is regarding the strike at the Waterford Hospital; have any new meetings been held to attempt to resolve the situation there? Has any approach been made by the union leaders to the minister or the Treasury Board? NM- 1 Has anyone from the Deoartment of Manpower or Finance attemnted to contact them to renew negotiations?

What I ~m seeking to find out, Hr. Speaker, is what is new~if anything., regarding the situation at the Haterford Hospital t·:J help to resolve the problem? HR. SPEAKER: 11R. DOODY: The han. Minister of Finance. No, Mr. Speaker, to the best of my ;:now ledge there have been no advances put forward by the unit at Haterford. We have made it quite clear,and it is still quite clear,that Treasury Board and the Hospital Board are quite t-7illing to sit dmm at any time ·to discuss anything that may be beneficial. Our obvious and ultimate objective is to settle this strike in the shortest possible time.

It would be at the best possible advantage to everybody concerned. The services of the Deoartment of Manpm.:rer and Industrial Re]ations are certainly available. I am quite sure that all the unit has to do is call on them and they will make themselves available. The Treasury Board neonle and the Hospital toard people are willing, as I have said, to sit dmrn and discuss the thing and to go into any detail to try to rationalize and try to organize and try to settle all the differences that there appear to be. As of this date 1 unfortunately,I cannot say that this has happened. MR. NOLAN: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary. 127fi

February 22, 1977 Tape No. 466 Wof - 2 MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NOLAN: I just would likP. to emphasize for the benefit of the minister that the reason I asked the questions obviously is we were approached by a number of people involved in the strike and they left us with the impression, rightly or wrongly, that they were given the impression,in a letter I believe, possibly from an official in Manpower, that there are certain items that are non-negotiable,and I believe this may be the stumbling block.

What I am trying to endeavour to find out ri~ht now is how long ca~ this go on brfore the government in fact will have to move in, if that is the good ~mrd to use in labour negotiations, and take some action on this matter one way or the other? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: I will have to try, Sir, despite the House rules which says that one question could be asked at a time, I will try to keep in mind the number of questions. If I miss one the hon. member can correct me, The bon. member suggests that the stumbling block has been in the last letter from Treasury Board.

The last letter from Treasury Board to the unit, addressed to the General Manager of the Newfoundland Association of Public Employees, replies to their reply to our suggestion which suggested that certain members of the unit be eligible for extraordinary pensions in terms of the public service pension plaP. The unit replied and said tqat this was not acceptable and outlined what they thought would be acceptable. The.

Acting Director of 'the Collective Bargaining Division replied on February 8th. to the unit, I have the letter in front of me, I car quote from the last two paragraphs and I table this, although it is simply a copy and I do not know if that is acceptable or not to the table of the House. And ·1?. 7 7

February 22, 1977 Tape No. 4ti6 NM- 3 MR. DOODY: it says, Sir, quite candidly, ''We are still prepared to look at any anomalies that there may be. However,the benefits and accumulation rate as outlined in the letter, January 21, 1977, must remain the same. "I am available for further discussion if necessary. n Signed A. Andrews, Director (Acting) Collective Bargaining Division, and there is a carbon copy to the Administrator of the Hospital.

Now that says there quite ~ndidly that Treasury Board is available for further discussiC'n if the unit finds it necessary,and we are available, whether it is at two o'clock in ~he ~orning or four o'clock in the moJ;"nin~ or six o'clock on Sunday morning, or any time, Our main concern is to try to get this thing settled. Our major concern has got to be O\lr responsibility to these patients who are in at the Hospital. We ha:ve got to do what we can do to try to 12 7·fS ..

.,.. February 22, 1977 Tape no. 467 Page 1 - mw Hr. Doody. make sure that their safety and ~v-ell-being is looked after. We have also got a responsibility to the people at large in terms of what we can do Fith the public treasury. And to that ~xtent, Sir, you know, we are just waiting and anxious and available to do whatever we can do to settle the thing fn terms of what is reasonable and sensible. MR. ~TRITE : MR. NEARY: ~ffi.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. A supplementary • A sup;)lementary. v!hen a couple of hon. members say supplementary it is difficult.

Dld the hon. mem~fr for Lewisporte ask for a supplementary? ~ffi.. vni:ITE: Yes . MR. SPEAK.EF.: And did the hon. me!aber for LaPoile ask for a s~pplemcntary? MR. NEARY: Yes. MR. WHITE: A supplementary, yes. MR. SPEAKER: I recognize the hon. ;:n.ernber for Lewisporte and then I will go on to the hon. member for LaPoile. HR. WlliTE: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the llinistcr of Finance. The police have gone into the Haterford Hospital and so or... Can the minister tell us what conditions are ~vithin the hospit2.l r:.ow?

You know, certainly if all those people are on strike that the patients must be doing without some kind of care. Could he inform us exactly what is going on, because I know there must be concerned people out · there? :1-ffi.. SPEAKER: :HR. DOODY: The hon. Minister of Finance.

I think, Sir, that one of the few bright spots in this whole situation - if there could be considered any bright spots in the situation is that there are some people \vho are concerned. li.Ild I think that, you kno·w, once again I have to dra"~<' to the attention of the House and to the public the fact that there are people who are genuinely concerned, and people who are genuinely responsible. TI1e total management and employee staff at the unit, as I 1279

. I February 22, 1977 Mr. Doody . Tape no. 467 Page 2 - mw recall it off the top of my head, is about 680 people. I think there are about 500 of that group who are now on strike. Tqere are 180 supervisory people, together with a nursing unit- lvhicl]. can be deducted probably from the 500 of the people 11Tho a:re on strike -The nursing unit are working in there. The supervisory people are working in there. There are some volunteers who are working in there, and we have thirteen policemen doing security work on each of three shifts 1,Thich makes a total, I guess, of thirty-nine policemen plus 1vhatever backup.

So there are quite a few concerned people who are doing everything that they possibly can do to make conditions livable and decent and reasonable for those people in there who cannot look after themselves. Unfortunately, none of the unit involved have seen fit to stay on the job and that, of course, is their right under the agreement, and under the present lack of agreement.

But I do find it extremely encouraging and satisfying in terms of the relatives and friends of the people who have their patients in at the Waterford, that there is a group of people who are dedicated enough to extend their shifts, to pass over their days off and their hours off,to work long and hard in jobs that they are not usually expected to do.

And I can honestly say to the House that as of this moment the reports that we get from our people in at the Waterford, that the level of attention the patients are getting, while certainl-y not what it should be if the full group were employed, is certainly adequate to meet the necessities of the day. And although the necessities of the day are not all that we would like them to have under the circumstances we are faced with, I think that the people who are doing the job are doing an absolutely remarkable job, and we are very, very proud of them. Sm1E HON. :HE}illERS: Hear, hear: 1280

February 22, 1977 NR. SPEAKElt: MR. :mARY: Tape no. 467 Page 3 - mw The bon. member for LaPoile, a suppl .ementary. Mr.

Speaker, as this is an urgent matter I am sure Your Honour will allow some leeway in the supplementary questions to the minister, because there are a lot of things which have·to be asked about this strike. 'iould the minister first of all tell the House if the minister himself made a commitment to the employees at the Waterford Hospital in writing, either before or after the signing of their last collective agreement, that before the new agreement is signed, the one which is being negotiated now, before that was signed, that the- minister 'v-ould undertake to give pension benefits the equivalent of those received by the police and fire'llen to those t.Yho receive c-ontact pay at the Vlaterford Hospital?

Did the minister undertake that commitment in v•riting? MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. minister. MR. DOODY: Mr, Speaker, during the las-t ccmt:rac ·t discussions tvith the ~vat- erford unit, there was ,you know, a very serious and verv real series of meetings between the unit 1281

February 22, 1977 Tape 468 IB-1 ~rR. noonY: and Treasury Board and myself. .And ~overnment did senc1 a le'tter to the ttn:l.t sirned hy me on behalf of the government. And I think the clause that the hon. member is referr:f .ng to I th:ink j_n this cRse could be referred to as the operative clause. It says, "In p11.rt:!cular, government reco~izes that _iustificat:lon for revlsed pension benefits ex:l.sts for those employees of Haterford Hospit11.l l•':lth a recorn of lengthl.y service coroprisec1 of constant involvement in the !mpervising and care of patients." last year.

That commitment was roade by this government That comll1itment, ~fr. Speak .e.r, has been carrie(! ont anr1 has heen offered despite the .fact that ~'e hac1 the - Well you mi~ht. t"R. NEAP_Y : r~. noonY: ~'r. Spea k er, ldll you please ask the an:l~ated lar ynx to control Hself for a few secor..cls? This is a very se:-i.ous proh1el!l Sir, and there are very, very many people involver). I have a great deal of sympathy for those peop]e l"t the Haterford Hho are patients. I have a rreat de2J oi' sympathy for those people F11o are on strike.

Rut I do not think that the cause of the House or of the people involved is going to be served by having the animated larynx lose control of itself at this particular point. ~-IF .• NEAPY: You are only a hired gu,:n anvway . . MR. SPEAKEP.: Order, please! All hon. roembers have the right to be heard in silence. The hon. Yinister of Finance. J.'R. DOOJ)Y: I will try to speak in silence, I!r. Speaker. Do you "~<-'ant me to try to ans~rer this Cluestion or do you not~becanse it :Is iwportant? MR. NEAPY: no not he so arrogant. XR.

DOODY: There may . be some benef:l.t, Sir, in p:etUnp: the television camer?s in here to see what actualJ y floes r:o on. t-7e made a proposal to the un:lt :In there bec~use of that coll1TT'itment. We also undertook at that tirn.e to inst:l.gate a fact fincl:lng commission into ·t-rork1np.; conditions at the Haterford Hospital. He coppointec1 a co!TIJ11issioner in consultatjon with NAPF., with the unit, and a report vas duly subrn:f.tted to government on November 21:\, 1975 by 1-'r. Howar~ Dyer. 1 ') 0 ')

.- Febru~ry 22, 1977 Tape 46~ IB-2 ~~. noonY: And unfortunately the finnin~s e>f Mr. J"'yer did not really substantiate all the allegations and all the reco1l11!\en~atiom; that the unit harl macle to us. On the other hancl it Clic' ne>t,jn all fairness.,thro~' out the filet that there had been in the past a lot of people working at the l,Taterford who had to work under very adverse and very clifficult conditions. Ann I must say - and I do not mean to try to cr5ticize the Dyer Peport - but I can say that I do not think :ft was ce>!l'pJetely satisfactory to either side.

I do not think it t-.•as very sati!=:f;o .ctory to the government side, to the hospitaJ sjde or to the union s:frle. l'~. NEAPY: That was because of the terms of reference. MR. nOODY: The terMs of reference - MR. SPEAKEP: I must point out to the hon. gentleman, to restate , _.hat was stated before, and that is that the hon. minister in ansPerin ? the ouestion has the right to insist that he be able to wal:e :it t\':f.thout interruption, and that js a right which the r'hair t"Ust enforce when reauested. The hon. Hinister of Finance. }fR. noonY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The terms of reference were dratm ' up,as I understand it and remember it,jointly by union and management in this particular case. And I do not think the terms of reference "!>~ere really a point in question. The point jn question t,>ere the findings which ,,·ere really not that conclusive. It pojnts out that certain things happened ~t the General Hospital which to1ere not inconsistent l-nth things that happened at the \~ aterford Hospital ani! things that happenec1 and so on,">hich is really not .;>hat ~'e \.Tere trvinr to get at.

So in order to try to achieve a reasonabJe co~promjse under the circumstances we presenteCI to the group at Haterforc1 a prooosa1 ~·>hich suggested to those people tYho were employed there froTT' 1960 on - ann there Has a formula worked in there with years of service,

February 22, 1977 Tape 469 PK - 1 Mr. Doody: plus age,who would be given special consideration in terms of • pension benefits. We know that conditions have changed at the Waterford for the better, thank God, Duringthe past fifteen years or more, things have improved considerably. We recognize the fact that people who have worked in there prior to ten or fifteen years ago were very likely workin~ under conditions which were much different than those in other institutions.

And so we offer this as a compromise because we had made the commitment which the bon. member from LaPolie mentioned, and a commitment which government has no intention of backing down from, and which we have honoured by sending this offer tQ the unit. The unit has rejected this, and feel that they want a much broader and much larger application of the pension benefits at the hospital. Well that leaves us in a very difficult position, Your Honour, because I cannot honestly say that the conditions right nm11 on certain areas of the psychiatric unit at the Grace or St.

Clare's or all the other general hospitals,are all that different from that at Waterford. I cannot honestly say that the amount of stress or strain that is going on in the ou·t-patients department on Saturday night at some of the general hospitals is more difficult than there is at the Waterford. I cannot honestly say that the psychiatric division at the Janeway,where all these children are,is more difficult or more onerous than the Waterford.

I cannot honestly say that the difficulties and stresses and strains that go ~n at all the other hospitals, and all the other institutions -fxon House, the Children's Home-is more difficult. And I mean that quite sincerely. I cannot honestly say that this is so, and it has not been demonstrated to us that it is so despite the fact that we_commissioned in all honestv. in unitv with thP union , an inquiry into just that question, 3nd the Waterford Hospital . - has not been demonstrated in this commission to be all that different.

And so I say that to pass along the benefits that are now being asked for at the Waterford to them to the exclusion of the people ~vho are working in these special care units in other hospitals, at this point in time 128~

February 22, 1977 Tape 469 PK - 2 MR. DOODY: is not demonstrated to us to be reasonable or equitable, and so we are forced to the position that we are, and that is to say tha.t there are some people in there who we feel deserve special attention, and these people are willjng to recognize, But we deplore the fact that the strike is in place, and as I say, we are willing to sit down, and if there are anonalies, if there are areas that we can get together to tryLto work things out,Treasury Board and the management in there are willing and able to sit down at any time to try and resolve it. MR.

NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the minister on television last night mentioned the fact that the people over in Hoyles Home, the workers in Hoyles Home were getting a contact allowance, and that thirteen members of the Newfoundland Constabulary that were doing the work of 500 in the Waterford Hospital, and that the new wing of the hospital had been open. Could the minister confirm if these statements are correct or if the minister just slipped up and was just talking without having the facts in front ~f him? MR. SPE:lUCER: The hon. Minister of Finance.

MR. DOODY: Once again there were three different questions, one of them was - what was the first one? MR. NE.Ar.Y : The Hoyles Home. MR. DOODY: The Hoyles Home. I said, I remember that · one, I said, possibly the Hoyles Home. MR. NEARY: That is not true. HR. DOODY: Well then it was not probably or even factually, it was possibly.that some of the Boyles Home people may be - I know that it is factually true that some of the people at the Hoyles Home feel that they do deserve special pay and special accommodation and special aonsideration. On the policemen thing, on the thirteen - MR.

NEARY: Doing the work of 500. 12RS

~ . "'· February 22. 1977 Tape 469 PK- 3 MR. DOODY: - doing the work of 500. That is obviously, and once again, you know, it is so easy to take something out of, context, I )laid this is obviously an oversimplif .ication, and do not misinterpret it, but they very quickly leaped on it. There are ,thirteen 1286

February 22, 1977 Tape no. 470 Page 1 - mw Hr. Doody . people per shift, so you make it thirty-nine. There are thirteen people per shift who are doing the security work which is only part of the job of the peoole \vho .;.;ork at the l.;'aterford. Dut one must not forget at the same time that that 180 other peoole v~ho are employee! at the 'Haterford are doin2: the rest of that work.

So if you take that thirtv-nine,or thirteen times three~ policemen and add them to the 180 management and nursing people tvho are doing the work, doing the nursing care and the hospital care t·mrk, you have got the thirteen policement per shift doing the security \vork, and you got the hospital people, tnank God, doing the necessary. attendants' care vmrk, and because of this the standard of service to those poor peoule, who are incapable of looking after themselves, had not deteriorated to an extent where it is right nmv a major emergency. On the new wing of the hospital, you knot;, it is in progress.

It is there. I~ is a matter of fact. HR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: The minister said it was open last night. I said tvorking conditions have improved there considerably. I said that there are all sorts of things happening in there. TI1ere are extra staff. There are new doctors. There is a netv wing. The netv wing is there. I did not say that it was opened or not opened or whatnot. It is there.

But every time that, you know, that obviously I say anything or will say anything on this thing, it just adds fuel to tne fire of those people tvho want to keep the thing going as long as they can keep it going, because it embarrasses government. I do not care how much you embarrass government in this particular case. I do not care if you run me out of town on a brass rail with feathers hanging out of me. My concern is tvit h these 500 P.atients in there who are desperately in need of help, and that is what I want. SOME HON. ~iEUl3 ERS : Hear, hear! 1287

February 22, 1977 MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: HR. J. WI}lSOR: MR. SPEAKER: Tape no. 470 Page 2 - mw The hon. member for Fortune - Hermitage. A supplementary. Thank you, Hr. Spe aker. Ord er, please! I recogni ze the hon. gentl eman but I would ask him to take his seat for a moment. Now with respec t to a supplementary,as hon. gentle men know Standin g Order 31 (

b) covers that, "In the discretion of. the Speaker a reason able number of supple mentary questions arising out of a minister's reply to an oral question may be asked by any members ." In 1,1sing the discretion ~vhich the Hous e g ives me I have to bea r in mind, number one, the importance of the subj ect matt er, and number two, 't-!hether there are other hon. members who wish and have ma t.l e kn o ~m the ir o;..•is[1es by continuing to stand, ~vho • . .-.ish to question on other s ubjects.

And since a little ov er t wo-t hir ds. :Jr appro xi mate ly tlvo-thir c!s - I do not have it to the minute- of th e Question Period is over, I t hi nk it is the proper use of the discret ion to now r eco 3nize othe r hun. member s . That does not mean that if th ere are not other subject s t hat t his coul d not be returned to. The hon. member for Fortune - Hermita ge. MR. J. WI NSOR: Thank you, Hr. Spea ker. My question is directed to the Minister o f Fisheri e s . In view of the rather guarded statement on the CBC last night regarding the status of B.C.

Packers plant at Harbour Breton, can the minister tell the House what stage negotiations are in at pres~nt? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Hinister of Fisheries. Mi'l. W. CARTER: }!r. Speaker, negotiations, I understand, have been going on betHeen Fishery Products Limited and B. C. Packers with a vieH to having 'the former assuming mmership of the plants novr owned and operated by B. C. Packers in Harbour Breton, Chance Jslnnds and Herring Neck. I am told as 't-rell that a proposal will be presented to me later today from Fishery Products outlinine the entire matter. I might tell the House as well, Mr.

Speaker, that after the Question Period I will be meeting with a delegation of people from 128~

rage ) - miT HR. H. CARTER: Harbour Breton who have expressed the similar concern, and I will be telling them pretty ~vell the same as I am telling the hon. House now that negotiations are ongoing, and that a proposal w·ill be made to us shortly, and there is every likelihood, at least there is a good chance, maybe,that ownership of that plant will change. HR.J. WINSOR: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Fortune - Hermitage. HR. J. WINSOR: Will this mean an upgrading of the trawler fleet operating out of Harbour nreton? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Fisheries. MR. W.

CARTER: Hr. Speaker, there will be certain benefits, I SUf!pOse, accrue to the operation "1\'ith, maybe, Fisl1ery Products taking the plant over. Fishery Products have a large catching capability, I think around thirty-seven ships. And I recall last year that they arranged to have two of their side trawlers placed under charter to B.C. Packers Limited which did, I think, to some extent alleviate the serious problem of the lack of continuity of resources in these raw materials.

But maybe if Fishery Products does in fact succeed in their endeavours to acquire ownership of that plant, with the added catching effort of that company, I think 1289

February 22, 1977 Tape No, 471 NM- 1 MR. W. CARTER: it will menn maybe a greater source of ra~~ material for the plant j of course at the f'<J!'le time a greater continuity of employment on the part of the workers who work there. HR. J. WINSOR: Mr. ~peaker, MR. SPEAKER: One further supplementary. MR. J. WINSOR: Thank you. Will this mean the same type tralvlers that they have nmv from Fishery Products or are you thinking about a .better type, mid-water or something like that'? HR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, I am not sure what type trawlers will be used or in fact am I sure just exactly how many. But I suspect that if Fishery Products does,as I say 1 succeed in taking over the plant there will be much more catching effort available to them. And as to what type I am not able to say at the ~oment. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDF.R: A question to the hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. Has the minister given consideration to placing a half load limit on the Trans-Canada Highway and some of the secondary roads in the Province? MR. S'I'EAKER: The bon.

Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. HORGAN: Mr. Speaker, no consideration has been given to date,but in the Spring breakup or the Spr:f.ng thaw every.year a number of roads around the Province are placed on half load limits• ~~ I am quite sure this year, with the substantial frost we have - had this past Hinter, this past number of weeks~ that there w·ill be again a number of secondary roads placed on half load limit.

With regard to the Trans-Canada Highway, to date no consideration has been given to placing any limits with regards to weight restrictions, but if the situation deteriorates and no action is taken on upgrading the Trans·Canada,we will reconsideu 12no

.. February 22, 1977 Tape No. 471 NM- 2 MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. HODDER: Is the minister aware that an early an~ouncement of half load limits in the Province will allow shippers and carriers in this Province to plan their schedules ·early in the year for the half load schedule? MR. SPFAKER: The hon. ~linister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Hr.

Speaker, the bon. gentleman apparently is assuming that I can fortell in the future what the weather conditions will be, what the environmental conditions will be in months ahead, I cannot say at this time, for example, what the conditions will be of our roads tHo months time. It is impossible. However, when the situation arises, when we have bad roads by means of the thaw, the Spring thaw, then the considerat1nns will be p,iven to placing half load limits. MR. HODDER: A su~plementary. MR. SPEAKER: One additional supplementary. MR.

HODDER: Is the minister aware that the Department of Trasnportation and Collllllunications in New Brunswick from past experience in placing half load limits have already announced their half load limits in two stages so that shippers and carriers can plan for , it? And I think in New Brunswick it is announced in one part for early March and then later in March. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Justice.

Hould the minister advise the House as to the present status of F.MO, emergency services .organization of this Province, EMO, Emergency Measures Organization. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the bon. gentleman will recall that last year there was an announcement in this House that there would be some 1291.

February 22, 1977 Tape No. 471 MR. HICKMAN: cutting back o~ the staff at EMO and this has• been done very sati~factorily. At the same time to use NM- 3 them as they were designed to be used as the focal of .organization for other departments that have emergency divisions situate therein.

For instance,the De~artment of Social Assistance has a very strong, well trained grou~ of men and women who are ready to resnon0 wherever the call goesout to an ~mergenc~ But t•7e found for instance tl :at in EMO there was a highly qualified doctor, full time, and obviously his talents and training could be much better spent working in the Department of Health but available for any emergency that migGt arise. And again in the Depa~tment of Health we havP that =mergency unit,as I understand -if I am wrong my colleague, t:ie hon.

Minister of Health can correct - this is the com:e~t that I understand is being used to develop EMO. And the concept of EMO has changed a great deal since it was first brought to this Province, as the hon. gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) will recall. I think it t··as disigned was to protect the lives of the Premier and the Cab~net. It was under the able direction - I see the first Director of EMO in the gallery in the person of Mr. Wickford Collins. I think he was the first director. SO~ RON. MEMBERS : Hear! Hear! 12~?

1:7 , February 22, 1977 Tape 472 IB-1 AN HON. "'~f>'RF.P: Has he the first? !-'P.. HICK~'AN : No, the second. Major Peter Cashin, "r. Speaker, I T!"USt correct the record was first. Pr. ColJ ins second and 00\oY ~fr. Guy. T~ank you very much. ~-'P. SPEAKET': flriler, please! I hope hon. pentleT'len will realize that I 111USt cut the minister of.f because our thirty minutes are up. another opportunity. Perhans there ldll be o:rmEPS OF 't'Jm rwr.: r-fotion fjrst reading of ~ bill, "An ~- ct Pespectinr.

The Eegistration And Regulation Of Consumer Peporting Agencies." (Rill No. 18) On rnotlon a bill, "An Act P.especting The Pegistratjon And Regulation Of Consumer Peporting Agenci .es," read a first ti111e, orclered read a second t:i.l'1e on toMorrow. (Bill No. 18) Votion first readin~ of a hill, ''An Act To F:~;tahlish The Bay St.

George Community Coller;e." (Bi.ll No. 19) On moti.on a i:dJJ., "An Act 'T'o :!l:stabUsh The J\ay St. neorge r.oT'll!ltmjty College," reac1 a f:l.rst ti.me, orc'ered read a seconc:1 time on tomorrow. (Bill No. 19) On motion a bill, "An Act To Amend The Collecti .O::l Jl g:encies ~-ct, 1973," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 1) On moti.on a bill, "An Act 't'o Amend The Direct ~ellers Act," react a third time, orderec1 passecl and title be as on the Orc1er Paper. (Bill No. 2) On motion a bill, "An Act To A!l'end The Newfoundland ronsumer Protection Act," read a thi_rd time, ornerec'l passed and title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 3) On motion a bill, "An Act To AT!"end The Attachment Of Wages Act," read q_ thirn time, ordere~ passed l'!nd title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 5) On motion a bill, "An Act To Amend The Statutes /,ct," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No.

R) 1293

February 22, 1977 Tape 472 IB-2 On motion a bill, ".An Act To Amend The Haintenance Orders (Enforcement) Act," read a th:J.rd time, ordered passed and t:f.tle to be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 10) .On motion a bill, "An Act To Change The Corporate Name Of The Society Of Industr:Jal Accountants Of Nepfoundland," reacl . a thin~ t:l:rne, ordere~ passed and title to be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 11) . On motion a bill, 1l.An Act To Amenrl The Evidence (~'echanical Recording) ~ . ·.

Act," rea~ a third time, ordered passe(! and title to be as C'ln the Order Paper. (Bill No. 15) On motion a bi.ll, 11 /-n Act To Al1!end The J,andlord And Tenant (P.es:lc1entjal Tenandes) Act, " rel'!.d a third time, ordere(l passed and title be as on the Order P~rer. (Bill No. 16) On motion a bilJ, "An Act To J\mend The Chair:rnan Of The Boar(! Of Cormilissioners Of Puhlic Utilities (Pension) Act, 1974," read a th:lrd time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 17)

.• -. c February 22,1977 Tape 473 AH-1 MR. HICKMAN: Order 12 - Bill No. 4. -r.totion second reading of a hill, "An Act To Amend The Petty Trepass Act." '1-!R:. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSF.: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this amendment is to add to the provisions of the Act the premises of schools, colleges throughout the province under its provision. A few years ago- I think right nov; as it reads that the Act takes care of the premises of shopping malls,and these are sort of semi-private properties,and He feel that the schools and colleges in the provinces should have the same protection.

Right nol-l we find that the University , for instance, has a very limited way of protecting its property from people 'l-7ho are trepassing as well as do school-boards, its schools and its lands around it. So it is a very simple addition to the Act. MR. SPEPY~R: Hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: T~:ce minister says , Sir, that it is a very sim'(lle amendment to the Act. Well, Sir, it is a very major amendment to the Act, It is not a simple matter.

The minister should not try to- because the;:e are not a lot of words in the bill, Sir, the minister shou+d not try to just palm it off as a very trivial matter,because it is a very major matter. Now we are going to have, Sir, in addition to the university and shopping malls and so forth , we are going to have schools, colleges~and I persume that includes vocational schools, included in the Act. Now, Mr. Speaker, what I want to ask the minister is,what are the grounds for extending the iurisdiction of the Act? Have we been • ?> having trouble .1 Has there been any pressure brought to bear on the minister?

Is it a result of the trouble we have been having , or at least we are alleged to be having , in the College of Trades and Technology? No, The 'Tlinister shakes his head and says,"No" Hell then, what is the justification for this major amendment that the minister tries to give the appearance is so simple? 1295

'February 22,1977 Tape 473 AH-2 MR. NEARY: }1r. Speaker, a felY' years ago, a couple of vears ago, we brought in a piece of legislation,into this bon. House, to give the security people over at Memorial University I believe equal status, to give them the same power, the same authority as the Newfoundland Constabulary, Well,practically the same. I beg your pardon1 AN. HON. HEHBER: It was not approved. MR. NEARY: It was not approved.

Well,I thought we passed that act, we amended the act and then passed it through, because I remember the origional act that was brought in would almost allow the security people over at ~emorial University to be armed, and . that is what "1e objected to. But they were given a great deal of authority and they have more authority right nm~, I presume, than the security over at the College of Trades and Technology and in the vocational schools. Hr. Speaker, I am not ob;ectinl-' to the bill, but I would like to know what is behind it , Sir.

All I am asking the minister is to give the Rouse some information, Hhat is behind it ? The last time we had a liquor strike in this province we saw a picture on the front page of the Daily News, where the security people, the head of the Gestapo, over at Hemorial University was seeing unloading beer and lugging it into the back door and got caught in the act by a photographer, a very alert photographer. Is that the reason for doing it{ Is that the kind of trepassing l~e are talking about? I would like to know, I would like to have some information on this. MR. J. CARTER: You will eet the information •. MR.

NEARY: Well,if I do not put the questions to the minister, he is not going to volunteer the information, the hon. big galoot would just please restrain himself. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. gentleman knows that he has been called to task a couple of accasions and he is asked now to withdral-1' the term. 1296

February 22,1977 Tape 473 AH-3 '1-IR. NEARY: Withdraw the term 1hon. big galoot'? I thought it was _just big galoot, Sir • Hell~H hon. big galoot is not parliamentary I withdraw it , Sir. 1297

February 22, 1977 Tape 474 IB-1 1-'fl'. NEAP.Y: Rut, l-!r. Speaker, you knmv, I ~rouJrl like to know. I T.lean,~ere we have thls b:ll J th:~t see111s to be sort of a - "rell i.n the> title it says Petty Trespass Act -but there must be some reason for it. And the minister certainly d:l_d not gfve us any justHication.

If the minister had to rise or fall, if the minister had to stake his reputation on the presentation of thjs hill,anc if we haCl the television cameras in here and the people of Ne"rfounc!land hacl to juclge whether or not this ~·ras a good piece of lep,islat ion, ~.rhether this is ?Oing to put bread and butter on the table of the orclinar.y people of this Province, if the minister had to justify that in the eyes of the people of this Province in furtherinp.- the cause of eclucation in this Province, I aT" afraicl that the min i.s ter rnaile a very "'eak case.

And I calJ upon hill' now to tell us what js behind it, and I 11l1ll talre my seat and I td.ll bm.r to the minister. But "!hen ministers are introdud.nr, legislation, Sir, let them not just pm,'D H off by sayinr: it i.s a very trivial matter. Some of the trivia] s matters that h;n.re gone through this House have our people tiecl up i.n knots, have a stranF"J ehol<" on ot•r people, and they sometimes are slipped through. 'Hell there is going to be no_ legislation slipped throup;h Phile I am ·in the House. It may be snee>ked through and slippecl through anCl ran through Hhen I am out,but not -.;,rhile T. am here.

I call upon the minls ter now to tell us what is behind th i.s bill, "In Act To Amend The Petty Trespass Act." (Rill ITo. 4) "-f!'. ~PE.AKET!: The. hon. me•~ber. for Conception B<ty Rout~. :'-lp.. NOLAN: ~·r. Speaker, I am atvare - I am not attell'pting to deprive the hon. minister from responc'li.np to the questions r;dsec'l ,he cause I realize if he speaks that !!leans he closes ann that vJj _l] be it.

Rut I am always so~e"~.rhat concernerl 1"ben "'e have a bill such as th:!s- and this is not a cr.iticisll' of the !T']nister~ incidentally- But H means ' that some, you could say, fr.eedoJlls are possibly being interfer.recl w:!th. But 1-rhat it hrings to ll'Y attention, ~<r. Speaker, is the fact of the sltuation that "re are fRcec:l '·~ith. Not too lonr, ago schools, 129~

"f• , ·to: February 22, 1977 Tape 474 IB-2 ~fll. NOL~N: shoppinF: areas <md so on ditl. not need enforcel!'ent p,uar~s, po];j_ce, security gu:~rc"s, cal1 them v1hat you like. Every-~,here you J ook no•!, l.:rhet.her it is an airport - there might be snJTle real justifi.cation there because of the security problems and threats nn planes and so nn. ~ut I actually had reason to see one securit y puard - I use that teTT", ' it may not be exactly correct -being beaten severely in a shoppin~ center a couple of years <l .!'"o here in the dty.

You cannot help hut ~-·onc1er. '-.•hat kind of a situation the teachers of the Province rnust finci t h em- ,. selves in. I mean,have "'e lost control in thi.s Province? I 111e~n,have the teachers? Many of the'!!' vd.ll tell you persona] ly that they have. They do not have the control they hac'l ~,·hen, for exarnpJe, the member for Ronavista South (Mr. ~<organ) was ~ oinr: to school becnuse if he stepped out of Hne, I suggest, he "'ouJ d be severely reprimanded. And if he went hnme and complainec, he ~,.-. ould ret the rounfls of the kitchen, the satr1e as we ali v!Oul d. But nmv the control seel!'s to he gone.

The discipljne, so-callec'l ~seems to be gone. He are nm,r trying with public money to pro teet pub] ic property that ~-·e have paid for in the first place, apparently. /md, you know,it is a matter of concern to me as a citizen-apart altorether from my presence in the Pouse, that this thinr I see gro winr- all the ti.me. He are continually bringing in ne'" measures, ne~._. ]a'lf•S that have to restrict certa .in, I run afra:! C!, freedol!'s. And this i.s the thinr we have to watch out for. This is not an attack on the minister from rne, believe me it is not.

It is a matter of concern that I feel he shares ~d th me. ~urely as a former educatol:' he must. But I atr1 _iust ,.•ondering w]-lat ~,· e have clone. He \\•ere all pridinr; ourselves throup,hout the 1960's on freedom of this, and the freedom of that. MR. HOP.PHY: ~. NOl.AN: The enlip;htenetl age. The enlightenetl ap;e,possibly. 'But "'hat ••e have tlone, what \\'e have created - I mean, sotr1e of the young people that ca!T'e through the 19fiO's Hith the so-called freedoms are now young marr:'en men and womefl.

And many of thel!l are tell:lnp; their children, "No \\•av are you going to have it the "my I hac it." ':hey co not 1299

}fR. NOJ"AN : believe in it. They may have fouf)'ht for it and marched for it and all the rest. But I am concerned about thjs ~articular bill, ana. I wouJd be concerned about others of the same vogue or nature if they ~!ere brought before me ln thls House of Assembly,to buiJClinr;s useCl for educational purposes. l-Tell it seems to me if ,,Te are ~oing to move in -we are really policing it, that is what Ne are dojng. l\Te are not calling the'J'II policemen,perhaps,but that is what they are. And they have to be 1300

c 'f.: February 22, 1977 Tape No. 475 NM- 1 MR. NOLAN: given authority,! would assume. And by the way, while you are at it the Minister of Justice might give some authority to the gentlemen, the commissionaires in this building, ~h? have often had some things to deal with. They have very little authority in many instances,too. But I am always very, very hesitant to approve a bill like this?and yet I know that in certain instances certain measures are necessary.

I mean 1we fight like dogs for freedom of speech, freedom of this and freedom of that and then we immediately, or some of us at least, abuse it and ~.;re have to bring in other laws, other personnel, more public money to help defend ourselves. And it scares the-devil out of me some of the things that I see that are happening in this particular instance. To think that the people of this Province have spent good money, and as a former broadcaster how often did I have to go on the air in the morning and report of instances where 500 school windows were broken out.

I mean it drives me mad just to think about what is going on. What I am scared of, Mr. Speaker, and I hope that th~ hon. minister will understand, is that every time we set up another law enforcement agency, I refer to this as a law enforcement agency for the matter of debate, but to what extent are we going in repressing freedoms ~hat are now being enjoyed by well ordered, responsible, disciplined students and so on. I mean,what am I doing? And I am just as responsible here in this House any anyone else. I did not introduce the bill, did not bring it in,but I am responsible. What am I doing?

Am I setting up some kind of an agency that is going to renress in any way the acitivities of students in the various educational institutions? I mean,they go to school to look for truth, facts, and so on, and by golly I mean if this goes throup,h, and I suggest it will, the minister has a terrible responsibility on his shoulders, 1301_

February 22, 1977 Tape No. 475 NM- 2 MR. NOLAN: I suggest, to see~one,that it is set up properly, that the areas of authority are very clearly set out, The minister also has a very grave responsibility the first time he gets words that any one is misusing the powers that we are allegedly or going to give throvgh this bill, that he will move in quickly through the school boards, or whatever it takes, to snap it back into order. It is costing the people of this Province a lot of money.

Not too long ago our normal law enforcement agencies could apparently handle the problems, to-hether they were in school - they did not have to move into the school necessarily unless invited. They did not have to move in there because control .was there within the school. It was there. They did not have to move into the London, New York and Paris down on Water Street, or J. M. Devine's when it ~•as open, or anywhere else. It was there.

And now we have a situation where more and more we have to pay good money to set up additional agencies, call them what you like, who are going into law enforcement, to enforce regulations and so on, because something has broken dmvn. Now the easy thin~,I suppose,would be to fire away or blast at the government or the Minister of Education. Well I think I would be irresponsible if I did that,because I think it is broken down in more than one area, and add the result is coming home to haunt us. I think we have to look at the whole educational system to see what is happening.

I think we have to look to see to what extent we have disarmed those who are involved in education. Right now I do not think you can punish anyone, for example,unless you bring another teacher or principal in to witness any discipline that might be enforced. 1302

February 22, 1977 Tape No. 475 MR. MURPHY: MR. NOLA.~: MR.. MURPHY: MR. NOLAN: Spare the rod and spoil the child. Pardon? Spare the rod and spoil the child. Well I am not suggesting that they go swinging the rod around either. But I am suggesting that - you see freedom is a wonderful thing. We are all shouting and bawling about it all the time. But freedom brings with it responsibility. I mean,you do not give a child a knife NM- 3 to play with. And I am very sorry, I have to tell the minister, I am very, very personally sorry to see this bill going through. I am~ as I am others.

And yet unless we start changing other things perhaps in the home, in the school and so on, we are going to see more of this. We are going to have more and more of it coming all the time, more and more of it. And I do not li-ke it, ~r. Speaker. I do not like it. This is a matter of real concern and it should be to all of us. It is not just a little bill. It ~s not. The explanatory note gives it two and a half lines. That is all. But it is worth more than that. Because I am saying to you we·have seen other bills go through for the university,and we will see more for other public institutions in the future.

I would like to be able to stand up here and advance all the answers to the ouestions that are necessary. I am sorry that I cannot do that. But 1 have enough sense to know that something is wrong. I think it is a failure on our part. Are we afraid to say that things are somewhat out of control 1303

February 22, 1977 Tape 476 PK - 1 Hr. Nolan: in some areas, because the passing of this bill surely admits that there is something wrong. There is something wrong. I believe - I was going to say I hope the minister realizes what he is going, I believe he does.

I only hope that he will realize that the follow-up to this has got to be very strict policing by the minister and by his officials,of how this power is going to be used;because if we surely have this backfire in any way so that it is going to affect the students occupying the buildings concerned, the premises concerned adversely,then we have created a grave il.ct here in this House. So we have to watch it. \ve have to watch it.

We spend our time fighting for freedoms, so much time in this House, and God knows a lot of people before I ever came on the scene, and now we are rapidly bringing in bills to try to protect what we have tried to build up. So I only hope that,I am not attempting to - I do not believe I should criticize the minister unless I have something better to offer:that is what I am saying. And at the moment I am really stumped on this one, other than the fact that the discipline in many areas seems to be gone. There seems . to be a genuine lack of respect for other peopl~s property, private or public.

And the more and more of this I see, the more I see us moving into a society that I do not particularly like. I do not like it. So that is all I have to say on it,Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The bon. member from Lewisporte. MR. F. WHITE: Hr. Speaker, I am not going to say very much on this particular bill.

I had not given much attention to the bil:l until now that other members have started to talk about it, and I have become interested in it myself to the point that I want to bring up something that we discussed there a little while ago, and the Minister of Education confirmed at that particular time. \Vhat we are doing presumably is trying to put more legislation en the books so that we will have more control over maintaining discipline and whatever at schools, and vocational schools, and the University, trade schools, the College of Fisheries, just about any places that are being used

February 22, 1977 Tape 476 PK - 2 Mr. White: for educational purposes. The thing that occurs to me, Mr. Speaker, is that a few weeks ago the Minister of Education confirmed that twenty-eight school attendance officers throughout the Province wece being let go by his department, not necessarily let go, but those particular jobs were being phased out and some of the workers .,or some of the employees, some of the officers were going into other vocations.

It seemed to me that those school attendance officers were there to assist parents, to assist teachers, to assist school boards in helping out when students were staying a1~ay from school, and missing school and that kind of thing, and those would be, you know, in general terms, some of the students who this Act might apply to. So I am wondering if we are doing away with something good on the one hand, and bringing in something bad on the other. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The bon. member from Baie Verte- White Bay. MR. R. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, I certainly share the concerns expressed so well by other bon~ members on this side of the House with regards to this particular bill. It is not a minor amendment, I do not believe, as the minister indicated in his opening remarks. In that regard I am going to be midly c~itical of the minister.

I believe that not only this particular minister, but when any minister-some bills have a fairly lengthly list of explanatory notes to them, this one unfortunately has a couple of sentences-· but I believe when any minister stands before this House to introduce a bill of the magnitude and implications of this one, then the least that can be done is to give an adequate explanation before the minister takes his place and we are expected to reply. How can we intelligently debate the implications of this bill~ I mean The Petty Trepasses Act do not mean very much to me, I do not know if I heard 1305

... February 22, 1977 Tape no. 477 Page 1 - mw Mr. Rideout. tell of it before I saw the amendment to this bill. How can we intelligently, Sir, debate the implications of this amendment if the minister gets up and says,very casually, it is a minor amendment, sits down, and when he stands again he closes the debate. The implications of the bill, the reasoning 'behind the bill, what the bill is all about, should be told before the minister takes his place the first time.

Then when he takes his place we can debate the merits of it, we can intelligently debate the merits of it, and the minister can reply before he closes. That is what I v10uld like to see happen. Unfortunately, it is not going to happen no,v. Hhen the minister sitr. dmm, ~·?hen he next rises, the debate will be over. He will not have a chance to reply to whatever his particular arguments are. But like other members here have expressed, I Y.'<luld like to knmv the real reason behind this bill. TN'nat is it? ~-Tnat is the reason for the bill?

If the minister had told us that in his opening remarks, then I would think, I would have assumed that an intelligent debate could have gone on back and forth across the House. That cannot be done now, because of the way the bill was introduced. I will throw out a couple of particular points. Is the purpose of the bill to regulate the use of school parking lots by private cars, for example? I have heard that type of thing being thrown around.

And in small communities, particularly communities in rural parts of this Province, people have been used to, v:hen they cannot get their car anywhere else, off the side of the road, parking them in school parking lots. Is it to regulate the use of school parking lots with ~er,ards to snow nachines later on in the evening when school is closed? I do not knmv ~.;hat the reasons are. I cannot intelligently debate the bill until I k~oH, and I would like for the minister, if he ever introduces another bill in the House,or any other minister, to take that into consideration.

Let us know what is behind it before you sit down and say, "Oh, it is only a minor amendment," and then expect us to intelligently take

part in the debate. 130fJ

--- February 22, 1977 Tape no. 477 Page 2 - mw MR . SPEAKER (Dr. Coll ins ) : The hon. member for St. JohP's East. MR . MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, as I read this bill all that is being done - and I knovT the hon. minister will ccrrect me if I am wrong - all that is really being done in this particular case is to afford and give to properties occupied by schools, vocational schools, !·:emorial University, Colleee of Trades and Technology the same tvpe of protection as the 01.mer .Jf a premises of a shopping mall or shopping plaza would have or tne m.mer of a factory or a warehouse or a storage area, that if somebody is trcpassing oa it and doing damage, then that per s on may be apprehended in accordance with the act, and he is <le2.lt with according to law, nothing more or nothing less.

The only thi:1g I ~·7ould observe ~vith respect to it is that I have a great deal of hesitation sometimes in extending any aut:1orit y wh.atsoever to Nemorial University, until i:emorial t'niversity is lvilling to submit itself to the authorities of this Province. SOliE HON. HENBERS: Hear, hear! HR. MARSHALL: But be that as it may, ~1r. Speake:-, we still have to remember that this is public properties, schools' public property, vocatio,nal schools, Hemorial University and vJhat have you.

It is a fact of life that vandalism in this city, certainly, and throughout this Province has run wild and is out of hand, and IV£ have to, unfortunately, take and give to the custodians of public property , certainlyJ the same rights as ~·1ould be given to the mmers of stores and shops, in other words, private o1mers, }ffi, SPEAKER (Jr . Collins):If the han. minister spea ks :1ow he closes the debate. HR. HOUSE: Ur.

Speaker, the purpose was just outlined by my colleague behind, the purpose for the bill, but one of the things I want to point out in relation to this is that the schools themselves, all schools, colleges and the universities have the power to discipline or to take action against the students of the schools. So this particular bill does not necessarily pertain to students who nre registered \dth the various schools. It is for people who are in these areas for no good reason. 110'7

Feburary 22, 1977 Tape no. 477 Page 3 - mw Nr. House. So that is the first thing, you know, for instance, in reference to the College of Trades, there was an action taken over there because that is within the rules and regulations of the school. So the first thing is that it does not have any effect on the school pupils in relation to their school duties. n_e thing that I t~ant to bear in mind is that we have had a lot of compl~ints from a number of 1J0 8

February 22, 1977, Tape 478, Page 1 -- apb MR. W. HOUSE: schools and I was very familiar with this when I was a school superintendent. The mP.mher for Baie Verte-White Bay (Mr. Rideout) has put his finger on it when he asked is it goin~ to prevent private cars from parkin~ and so on. One of things we have in a lot of schools in Newfoundland, a lot of young people l~ho happen to be idle, unemployed, perhaps, durin~ the TJinter, is day after day you get people going around and round the schools on snow tobaggans, just interrupting the classes totally all the time. That is one of the problems now.

If you could have a person in these institutions who can take some action against these people, of course, that is one of the purposes of it. The other thing is, ~r. Speaker, a lot of reference '"ras made to Memorial University. I thinl~ lve did make a proposition a few years ago where they would be able to set up a special police force. I think that lvas turned down. I am pretty certain that never got passed. One of the problems Memorial University has is not with their students. Again, like everybody else, they_can handle their students. They have mechanisms to suspend students.

P.ut the one ~rohlem that they cannot resolve is after a student is suspended or expelled from the university, they have no way of keeping them off the property and he or she is normally there for things that are not connected with education and perhaps doing the ve!y antithesis of education and, I think, I do not have to spell out lvhat can happen. They have no means lvhereby they can get rid of this kind of trespassers, so it is only .iust giving, as was stated, the provisions of the act that allows a shopping mall, for instance, to protect its property. I think we have a responsibility to this Province.

He have public schools, they are public denominational schools and there are public colleges and so on, but they are operated hy private boards. The boards are private. It seems ludicrous to me when I go around to schools, 130!l

c MR. HOUSE: and I have had this case myself, where the board had to deem the area private property, "Private Property, Trespassers will be Prosecuted" because they could not come under this act apparently. So that seemed ludicrous beca~se people have to go in there and there is nobody going to try to .keep people off these properties "t.rhen they are there on l~gitimate business.

I ~m saying that the schools are set up for a specific purpose and set up by this Legislature for the purpose of educating and when people are there for reasons "·other than that and perhaps causing problems and trouble, I think the board should have a right to get these people taken off it, and this is what this act ~.rill do. AN HON. MEMBER: Why do they not call in the oolice? HR, HOUSE: They call in the police, Mr. Speaker , and by the time the police are in they are gone and there is nobody to apprehend. This certainly happens in the case of snowmobiles. So, Mr. Speaker, I move second reading of this hill.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Petty Trespasse Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Hhole House presently by leave. MR. HICKMAN: Order 17, Bill No. 13. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Education Act." MR. SPEAKER (Collins); The hon. the Hinister of Education. MR. HOUSE: Hr. Speaker,the purpose of this bill is twofold. First of all it is a name change. Pr~viously we had two assistant deputy ministers; one was the Assistant Deputy Minister Academic and the other was the Assistant Deputy Hlnister Vocational and Technical.

With a little bit of reorganization at the department, to try to make it more functional, we have changed that to an assistant deputy minister, programme development, and an assistant deputy minister of finance and administration. The 1310

February 22, 1~77 Tape 479 rn-1 m'. ROUSF: purposes t~ere of course is bec<1use hoth Am-'s ~cere connecte~ ~d th finance anc:l ac:lministratjon and both ~,Tere connected vith 8 pror:ramme development previously. No~! '"e think lt is a lot better t0 have the person '•7ho is finance and ar'lrdnistration to lool: after the ~-Jhole thing. So that is the purpose of that particular chanr,e. The other change is that the General Advisory Committee ~ake-np consists of the three clenominationaJ education secretaries •mel the J)eputy ~finj_ster <J!1C the ~'i.n:!. ster nf E<'lucation.

Pe askecl . the people on the Cotnr.littee, that js prese.ntly tl,e t~ree DEC: secretaries, j-F ~-·e could pJ ?.ce on that r.0T111'1i ttee the 1\T"I~' prn~ral"me c1eveJ oprnP-n t <1nd they concurred. And that is the other part of this hi, 1. it is to allmv the AT)~' programme development a place on the C:eneraJ Advisory Compjttee. ~<t> SPEAY-EP: The hon. member for Terra Nova. ~'R. tFS!l: ~fr.

Specker, I am not sure cftt .er ur.ere J stanrl on this partj cular h:l.l1 at trd.s t:'mrent. ~here are rr.any ouestio~s that I "'mule! like to noint out tc hon. l!'enbers ab0ut tris particular hill, particularly as they relate to t~e t~vo Assista.nt neputy Pinisters. Hon. members will recall that the Assistant neputy ~'in:!ster in Adminlstration and Finance is re.pJacinr; vrhat Pa!" the Assistant neput'y ~finister of Vocational and Technical Tr<Jininr.. There are rr.anv people Hho fear that by eliminatinp.; this pos:ltJon ~re have in<'leecl minimize(! the importance of vocational and technical traininr..

The point is, Sir, that Nho nmv has the responsibjUtv to co-ordinate voce.tlonal education ln this Province. ;fuo is it that sees to it that ,.,e have got different type prop;rarnmes in our vocational schools to cater to the variot!s neers? l.Jho ,-,yjl] see that there :is n<' duplication of pr0r.r.am!'1es in the various institutjons nnd that ,.·e are indeed offedng the pro?rarnl!'es thct meet the necrs of stuc'ents toc'ay?

So there is some concern amonr e<'lucators that by eliminating this position that we are cloing sorrething to minimi .ze the importance of this tremenclously important aspect of education, vocational and technical train:l.ng. 1311.

"' _ .., - "'- • .J -- .• .., , I ~ "-'fl. LTTSH: The other thin~ relates to tl1e positjon itself of an Assjstant T'eputy ~in:f.ster of Adndnistration and fjnance. Sir, I am the first to realize that there are a lot of r.~onies allocated in education and that l,re do have to have some responsihili ty, someboc1v looking after "the expenditures. But Treasun• Bo::trc1 normally is the group of people 't.-h.o look after what Monies <~re allocaten to eclucation. .., .. are t.rondering whether there are not t~•o stnll'hlinr. blocks to r-et Monies a1Jocatee1 for education.

Just •.vr.at is the authority of the Assistant Deputy Ninister? Is it just a ll'atter of say i ng hot-r P.'Uch ... monies are p.:oing to be a1Jocatee1 to ec'l.ucat:ion :in r1 pr1rticular year? Then do we still have to ?,o to T.reasnry Roarc1? So this looks like two stumbling blocks reaJJ.v, tFo things to delay the process 1--y ~,rl:dch monies will be granted to ec1ucati.on. There is no other c1esirn<Jterl positioD vithin govern,., _ent. nds is the only one, I think, thnt t-dJJ have an Ass:ist.?nt neputy 1':in5ster of Administration and Finance.

There is another concern ton in addjtion to the prohlem of ~m-1 this is goinfY to sloP c1o~-m the process of makjng ilecisi.ons in er.'lucatjon t-dth respect to fincmce. Another important one is "'hat are the further implications i' '!'here is so!"le concern atnong edut:l'ltors that t]1is position is going to pnt more ' - attention on financin~ education than on looking into the nee~s of education. In other l-TDrc1s, He are going to not be so r.mch concerned about lvhat the actual needs of eclucation are so much as to what ~ollars 1:11e can put into education.

Sir, I think that there has g-ot to be a ba]ance bet1>reen the tHo. But we certainly h .owe to clesign prc>f!rar.~IT'es that are gearecl to ] ook after the nee<'1s of the s tn~.e.nts of thjs Province. Another point here as ,,,ell is that jt is unfortunate to s e e sol1'eboclv in finance who has 110 backf!round t-7ith respect to educ<ltjon. Th~s is another point for concern. The Jast point I want to mention :is that -:mel this is re}Rtecl to another pcint that I made wHh the fr1ct th?.t finance ~dlJ becoTPe now a very important matter as opposed to the needs and the kinds of pro?.rammes that we should be 1312

February 22, 1977 Tape 480 PK - 1 Mr. T. Lush: putting into our schools, and that is, Sir, that there is some great fear that finance is going to become so important that, as a matter of fact _, what is going to happen is that in the hiring of teachers in the future that we will not be looking at qualifications as such.

In other words what we are going to be saying, is that; if we can hire, if we have got, let us say, half a dozen applications for a certain position, and we have got a couple of people with Grade VI,, and a couple of people with Grade VII, maybe this financial expert will say, look let us take the person with Grade II, let us take the person with Grade III rather than spending this money on the person with Grade VII, because he is going to cost us twice as much money: so therefore ~•e will take the person with the lower qualifications.

And this could be very serious, having the result really. of lmvering the quality of education in this Province, Sir. And these are some of the concerns that I have, and would want more clarification on this particular thing before I would give consent to the bill, before I would agree to the passing of this particular bill. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS) The hon. member from LaPoile. MR. NEARY: --·--- Mr.

Speaker, the first thing that I asked myself when I looked over this bill, looked over the explanatory notes of the bill, 1 LAn Act To Amend The Department Of Education Act~ ·· Sir, is what this is going to do for education in this Province? I read the explanatory notes very carefully, Sir, and I have come to the conclusion that it is going to do absolutely nothing. Nil! Zero! Absolutely nothing, Sir. It is not going to cure, it is not going to do anything. It is not even going to put the minister or his department in a position to cure the ills of education in this Province.

Now I am not going to swing into a wide-ranging debate. I could at this moment, Sir, and I realize his Honour is coming in at 5:00 o'clock to sign some of these . bills, but this opens up the door, Mr. Speaker) this bill could open up the door for a major debate on education in this Province. I am not going to get into it now, I hope to get into it some time before the session ends, because I think it is about time we stopped our foolish 131]

February 22, 1977 Tape 480 PK- 2 Mr. Neary: nonsense of fooling around and putting grand titles on people and got down to brass tacks, took off our coats and took a look at our whole .education system in this Province, and see where we are going, if we are headed in the right direction, if we are getting the right value for our educational dollar that is being spent. Somehm.r or other every time somebody talks about education and it is verified in this bill, they say,"Oh put more money in education. You are not putting enough money in.

I hear that argument every day of my life; give education more money, give the school boards ~: more money, give this one more money, give that one a few more dollars, and we do not know at this moment if the money is being spent . MR. MORGAN: I was not aware it was coming from the government side. HR. NEARY: No I do not hear it from the government side. We do not know, at least I do not know, and I have been asking enough questions over the last two or three years trying to get a fact-finding committee or a commission of enquiry or something to look at our whole educational system.

I am not so sure, Sir, that we are getting the value for our educational dollar that we should be getting in this Province. And before we start harassing the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board, and the gentleman that has been appointed here, the Assistant Deputy Minister in charge of administration in Finance, before we start harassing these people, and tearing the hide off them for more money for education in this Province, let us find out now before it is too late, if we are getting the value now that we should be getting for our educational dollar, and if we are headed in the right direction.

If not, what should we do to remedy the situation? Education is the kind of a thing, Sir, if you do not face it now it will be too late in a few years. The damage will be done. It will be impossible to rectify it. As I said I am not going to swing into a debate now on it, I will, I hope before the session ends. This bill, Sir, is going to stick a couple of handles, a couple of titles on a couole of oeoole down in the minister's office. but it is going to do nothing, Sir, to improve the standard of education in this Province. It is going to do

February 22, 1977 Tape 480 PK- 3 Mr. Neary: nothing to improve the performance of teachers in the classroom. I remember recently, Mr. Speaker, 131S

February 22, 1977 Tape no. 481 Page 1 - mw Hr. Neary . I got into a hassle with one of the officials down in the minister's department, w·hen I talked about a teacher being paid on his effectiveness in the classroom, not on the piece of paper he got from Memorial University, because that, as it happened, turned out to be a bit of a racket, a certification racket. And this official said to me, "Oh, yes, if you do that, the teachers will be' passing all the students so they can have a good record. The official could not even see what I was talking about.

The only thing they could see was to try and put a roadblock in the way of what I was talkinz about, obstruct what I was talking about, obstruct my idea. The im.'•nediate reaction was negative that, oh, yes, if you do that, all the teachers then will be passing their students so they can show that they are really effective in the classroom, and it will all be just a big hoax, and a big farce. They could not even v10rk out a formula in their own little narrmv minds, the officials in the 11inister' s depart:nent, of how you could judge a teacher on his effectiveness in the classroom. Mr. Speaker, the hon.

Minister of Justice's blood pressure is going up, Sir. I wish we had more time to talk about this bill. Look, it really, I suppose, in one sense, does not make any difference if we pass it, if ue turn it dov.m, if ~ve stand on our heads as far as this bill is concerned. It is not that important to our educational system, and some time later on during this session I think we should have an all-out, no-holds barred debate on our educational system in this Province at the present time. HR. SPEAKER: lfR. RIDEOUT: The hon. member for Baie Verte - H'hite Bay. Hr.

Speaker, I hope that the ?!inister of Justice's blood pressure will not bust for another minute, althou3h I Hill only be a couple of seconds. I think most of the questions relative to this bill have been raised by the member for Terra ::ova (:!r. Lush) and the member for LaPoile (Hr. :-leary). I just have a couple of brief questions for the minister. I notice that the amendment in Clause (3), relative to the Denominational Policy Commission, the second assistant 1316

February ZL, 1~// Tape no. 4tH Page 2 - mw Mr. Rideout. deputy minister that he mentions, the Assistant Deputy Minister of Administration in Finance is ~ot included or not listed, at least, in the clause that has been part of this Denominational Policy Cmmnission. My question would be, will he be on that policy commission? And I would like for the minister in cl:Jsing the debate to atteMpt to, at least, enlarge a little bit more. on what is to be the actual authority of this second assistant deputy minister, the gentleman in ch,arge of that administration in Finance? As my colleague from Terra Nova (Hr.

Lu3h) pointed out very adequately a few minutes ago, we already ha·;e to go to Treasury Board. He already have the mechanisms. And what is the purpose of this second stumblinz block, this assistant deputy minister in charge of administration in Finance? So I would like for the minister to deal with those two particular points in his remarks, please. HR. SPEAY-..ER: The hon. Hinister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Just a word, Hr. Speaker. I do not ~.;ant to prolong the debate on this, but since the Finance issue has become such a prominent one in this particular bill, I think it incumbent on me to say just a few words.

The vote in the last budget for the Department of Education was almost $245 million. To suggest that there should not be some senior person \vith financial expertise and financial experience sitting in one of the senior seats in that department, would be, I think, most irresponsible. I think the minister is making a very sensible and a very reasonable . move forward in getting a senior officer to take responsibility in the financial area. The budget for the Depart ment of Education, as most people of this House are well aware)exceeds by far the entire budget of this Province just a few short years ago.

Proper financial controls in distribution of that money is a~solutely essential. Somebody has to be sitting down on a day to day basis discussing the salary discussing the problems, discussing the pension 1317 problems,

February 22, 1977 Tape no. 481 I'~ge 3 - mw ¥.r. Doody. school bus transportation problems, discussing the grants to school boards problems, discussing the grants for capital constructions for the s.chool boards and so on. And there has to be obviously in any responsible organization a senior finance man.To suggest that the level of education will 131R

February 22,1977 Tape 482 AH-1 MR. DOODY: will deteriorate because some financial or expertise in management is being inserted is just not sensible. Certainly we need a high standard of education in this province and certainly this province is strug~ling to attain and to keep up the high standard that we now have,and perhaps to get a higher standard ip. the future. To suggest that this should be done eompletely without regard to the cost tothe treasury and to the pe~ple of the province, I think, is just not sensible. ·.

And so I congratulate the minister on getting a senior finance man in a position of authority in his department and I think it is a very, very, ~•orth-~.,.hile move and one I think that is F:Oing to he of estimable value in the future in keeping the expenses of the department under reasonable control. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister speaks nmv, he closeR the debate. The hon. Minister of Education. HR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, the hon. meiTiber for Terra ~Tova has some questions about some concerns thathe had and, of course, I was going to mention the inportance of putting it in the way that we are.

I do not think it is going to change education per se .Right now these people are in place, they are the same two deputies, there is no more cost. . The people are in place and what I tried to point out at the beginning was that under the previous organization both AD}t 's were concerned '1-Jith finance, both ''ere concerned 'vith ~ro~ramme development but both were academic people, and it Has felt that when the time came to make a change that we should have a high-pmvered finance person. F.ecause, Mr.

Speaker, the ADN Vocational was concerned very much with manpower training grants • A lot of his time 'vas tal<en in Ottawa for instance , dealing with Ottawa manpower training programmes and so on, nasically on finance. So now what we have done is put the ADH that was in academic, generally in programMe development,and he is overseeing totally the programmes in vocational schools as well as the day schools. 131!1

February 22,1977 Tape 482 AH-2 MR. HOUSF.: And the ADM is involved \vith the same programmes hut from the finance angle and they "-'Orlc together at that ve-,:y Hell. Now you say lYho is looking after- well I .iust mentioned the ADM at a top level programme development. But for technical purposes the person who is responsible for curriculum in vocational schools and vocational education is the director of vocational education. That is the technical man who oversees curriculum and that sort of thing.

Also in addition to that lYe have a Manpower Needs Committee l.rhich takes people from the nepartment of l!lanpOlver Thespneonle are involved '~ith curriculum also , so I see it as a very Hise move. Amlyou cannot under estimate the fact that \ve do have a very heavy budget~ a large budget , and we do need a high-powered person there.

The question from the hon. minister for Baie Verte-"\,lhite Bay "Will the second ADH be under demoninational nolirv ,.nmm~ .. .,~ ... -j'"' No, the demoninational policy commission deals basically \vith school programming and in that ca~e we would just have the one ADM on that particular committee. I move the second reading of this bill. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Education Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Hhole House presently by leave. ("Rill No. 13 ) • HR. HICKHAN: Order 14- Bill No. 7.

Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Memorial University Act." }ffi. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSF.: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is twofold. It is necessary to bring the noard of Regents and the Senate of Memorial University, their boards, in line with other universities and.colleges throughout the province, throughout the dominion and also it is necessary for insurance purposes , liahility insurance purnoses, as well as good common sense practice. At the prese~t time the legislation, as the legislation reads, it is not clear as to whether

Section 46 1320

February 22, 1977, Tape 483, Page 1 -- apb MR. HOUSE: and 68 personally exempt members of the Board of Regents or members of the Senate from• liability for actions and decision taken by thP~ in their official capacity. That is now clear. These are individual members so this amendment \vould have the effect of exempting them from liability in this case. It says there, I think, "~.a thout affecting the

interpretation Act, ." and the

Interpretation Act states that corporations can sue and be sued. So the 'board of Regents is a corporation in the sense it can sue and be sued.

Of course the other thing, "A majority of members voting for a particular actiofi hinds all other members." And the other thing that is important to bear in mind there in that act is that, "They are exempt from personal liability w·hen they do not contravene the orovisions of the act incorporating them." So that provides, of course, a measure there that protects the university hut this ne\v act here is just a clarification to exempt people from personal liability \vhen they take an action in their official capacity.

It does not exempt the board itself, the board may be liable but the individual shall not be under this act. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I notice in his remarks there the hon. the Hinister of Education, Sir, co1T1IT!itted the mortal sin, as far as the university is concerned, of referring to it as a corporation. \~ell if the President of that corporation could only hear that, Sir, he would have a stroke. He would not last out another year before he passed in his resignation or retired. MR._HOUSE: It is a corporation :l.n the sense of being - MR.

NEARY: Yes, well they do not call it a corporation. I had a row recently with the academics over at Memorial about whether it was a corporation or not. They say it is not a corporation. They do not look upon it - 1321.

l'·et>ruary 22, 1977, Ts.pe 483, Page 2 -- apb AN HON. MEMBER: How did you get in? I thought it was petty trespassing. MR. NEARY: I was invited in, Sir. I was invited in and I will tell the Minister of Finance about my meeting one of .thesr. days. It was a very interesting affair. _!N.!... .!!_0~. MEMBER: Tell us now. MJf. NEARY: No, I do not have time now, Sir: the ~ . Minister of Justice is trying to ram through a few pieces of legislation in a hurry and we ar~ trying to do the best we can to accommodate him. The Minister of Education is not bein~ very helpful.

The minister could have picked some other department because the Minister of Education is not giving us proper explanations and that is why ~.re have to stand up and ask a fe~.r questions and try to pry a little bit of information out of the minister. Well, Sir, again this bill opens up the door for a very wide-ranging discussion, a very wide-ran~ing oehate but because three or four minutes from now His Honour j_s going to arrive, I have to cut it short. M.R. HOODROH: Fifteen minutes left. HR. NEARY: Fifteen minutes? MR. l.J'OODROH: Yes. MR. NEARY: Well, maybe I can go on for ten of the fifteen minutes anyway.

I thank the ~ember for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) for that little piece of information. But, Sir, in one sense,I suppose,you cannot blame the members of the Board of Regents of the university for trying to get out from under the responsihilitv of being personally liable for anything that r,oes on over at that university. You cannot blame them at all, Sir. If I were on the Board of Regents I might try to do the same thing myself l.rith the irresponsible manner in which that crowd is acting over there, refusing, for instance, to comply with the Province's own public tendering procedures. They refused to do it.

They will not do it, they will only call tenders for anything over $10,00(), and 1'1?? ~- ,, ..... . ~

February 22, 1977, Tape 483, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: this Rouse pasRed a Public Tendering Act making it compulsory for the government itself to call tenders for everything over $1,000. Yes, Sir, 1 checked recently with the officials and 1 am told they will go down to a stick of pencil if they can. But usually they have the eseape hatch there, everything over $1,000 they should call tenders for. Over at Memorial University it is everything over $10,000. They will not even comply with the Public Tendering procedure of the Province.

I think that is wrong and if I were on that Board of Regents I would be - AN RON . 'E 1BE'R: Can you nuote examples? MR. NEARY: Quote examples? Yes, I can quote examples but I am not going to. l-m=-. MORGAN: Sure you can? MR. NEARY: Maintenance of the buildings over there, 1323

February 22, 1977 Tape No. 484 MR. NEARY: lighting, electrical, mechanical - AN HON. MEMBER: Heatins> maintenance. MR. NEARY: - heatinp, maintenance. They do not call oublic tenders, Sir. Hhen, Mr. Speaker, when was the last time Your Honour saw a public tender in the new~~aper from Hemorial University. Your Honour would be misleading the House if Your Honour said, "Oh, I have seen all kinds of them in recent years." They just are not there. They NM- 1 are doing what they like with the money over there.

No wonder the Board of Regents are getting upset about being personally responsible for what goes on over in that institution, that institution of higher learning. And they would be very offended, they would give the minister a little slao on the knuckles if they heard him referring to it as a corporation. And, Sir, Hith all the crm.rd that are running around like roosters with their heads cut off to all parts of the world, with unlimited expense accounts, certainly the Board of Regents - MR. J-fORGAN: Travelling first class. MR. NEARY: And travelling first class.

You cannot get aboard of a plane, the poor old members of the House of Assembly, Sir, have to travel second class economy, and lucky to do that. And ministers, I understand, recently got instructions from the Premier when they are travelling to go economy. AN RON. MEMBER: Except overseas. MR. NEARY: Except overseas. HR. HORGAN: Anywhere in Canada we travel second class. MR. NEARY: Well not so with the crowd over at Memorial University, not so with that crowd, Sir. They have got to sit up front. They would be up with the captain if they could get there I suppose.

They have got to get their couple of little extra drinks of spirits, and they have got to get the preferre~ treatment by the cute little airline stewardesses ~ and here are members of tl'e House of Assembly back aft, lucky to get on the aircraft at all.

": February 22, 1977 MR. LUSH: Steerage. Tape No. 484 MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? MR. LUSH: Steerage. MR. NEARY: No, not steerage, that went out with ·the Fort Townshend or Fort Amherst I think. And, Sir, I would make no ~•onder men of the Board of Regents over there at ¥.emorial University do not want to have anything to do with being responsible or liable for any of the actions, even their own actions,! suppose,to a certain degree. Mr.

Speaker, the Board of Regents-look it has to be about the biggest joke on the face of the earth, the Board of Regents of that university, and I know my friend, the member for Kilbride (Mr. R. Wells) will get up and say, NM- 2 "Oh well they are outstanding Newfoundlanders, great honourable crowd of people." And the Minister of Justice will verify it saying, "Oh my, look what yot• are saying about all these fellows on the Board of Regents over at Hemorial University. They are performing such a service for Newfoundland, wonderful people, putting in their time over there.

My God, volunteers, they do not get anything out of it and there you are running them down." They are just merely rubber stamns, Sir, they are merely rubber stamps for the President and his cronies, his little clique over at that university. And I have very good reason for saying that. Haybe before this House is over I will tell about my meeting that I had recently in connection with the re-appointments to the Board of Regents at this university, when two gentlemen got kicked off because they dared go against the wishes of the President of the University who came in to the hon. the Premier and said, "Mr.

Premier, if you re-appoint Peter Gardiner to the Board of Regents of that university you will get my resignation a year earlier than you thought you were going to get it." How is that, Mr. Minister of Finance? How is that for having the Neary plumbers at work, getti.ng me the information. 132~

February 22, 1977 Tape No, 484 NM- 3 AN HON. MEMBER: Neary plmnbers. MR. DOODY: I am used to listening to the sewerage problem for a for a long while now. It is hogwash. Carry on. MR. NEARY: The bon. member had better be careful about his pub~ic statements. If the bon. gentleman is going to appear on television he had better be factual, especially if I am watching him. MR. DOODY: Straighten out your boiler plugs. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, that is another story and we will ...:: deal with that wr.en we come to the Education estimates, ahout the re-appointments and how Aiden Maloney and Peter Gardiner got shafted, got put off the Board of Regents because the President did not want either one of them there. MR. MURPHY: What has that got to do with the minister's reaction of last April or last Spring? MR. NEARY: That is what~ The reaction of what? MR. MURPHY: Last April or last Spring. MR. NEARY: I have not said it in the House. MR. MURPHY: Yes, you did. MR • .

NEARY: No, I certainly did not, because the appointments were made, Sir - the people were reappointed since the House closed, after the House closed. 1.326

February 22, 1977, Tape 485, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, as I say, I do not blame certain members of the Senate and of the Board of Regents for • not wanting to accept the responsibility for some of the things that go on in that university and before we are finished with this session of the House bon. members may learn of a few more things that are goinp, on over there that these gentlemen do not want to accept the responsibility for . So, Sir, I do not know l.rhether I am for the bill or against it, To he honest with you, I really do not knm.r. I probably will not even bother to vote on it.

I wish I could have a full-fledged debate lV'ith the minister on this whole matter.of the Board of Regents and the Senate over at that university . We do not have the t:ime now but lJe will have it out before this session of the House is over. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Conception Bav South. MR. NOLAN: Mr.

Speaker, I would assume that we have to grant to the Board of Regents, memhers and Senate , the same as we have done for other similar boards and regents, or other groups rather, in similar positions,to remove them from personal liability in their functioning as allegedly the guardians of the people, because that is l.rhat they are, appointed to look after the affairs of the people at the university.

Now whether they are doing it or not is the question that is asked by many people throughout this Province. 1 am sorry to say that 1 believe that Memorial University is under great suspicion by many people in this Province who, nerhaps, have never darl ~. ener1. the doors of the university but nevertheless their children have anc they have paid for it. As long as this official cloud of secrecy that prevails continues to prevail, as far as Memorial lTniversity is concerned, as long as it continues to be a Rreat academic sacred cow, we are all in trouble and we are all looked upon with some suspicion. 1327

February 22, 1977, Tape 485, Pa~e 2 -- aph MR. NOLAN: It is particularly offensive to me, Mr. Speaker, to know that there are members who are now involved with the university in responsible positions, perhaps on the Board of Regents or on the Senate, who have actnallv spoken in this House about the very things many of us criticize, and have stated their position, if vou will examine the Hansards of years gone by, demanding the same things so many of us have been trying to get.

Now if you talk to the higher echelon of the academic community at the university, especiallv the members of the government, they will rise up in revolt and say, "How dare you attempt to interfer with academic freedom?" What nonsense! What absolute and utter nonsense! All we are asking for is financial responsibility to the people, to this House and therefore to the people of this Province. We are not attempting to interfer with academic responsibility.

One of the problems I see sometimes in some of the outrageous statements about the unj_versity is that we must be careful that in attempting to control some of the th~ngs we disagree with, that ~•c do not destroy the i.nstitution in the process. That is what we have to heware of. MR.. DOODY: Were you experimenting lvith the organ on television? MR. NOLA~!: No. ~MR~·~-~WHI~~T~E~=------~Tb~at is academic freeclom. MR.

NOLAN: --- --- I happened to make a comment on the university recently and it was on television, or part of what I said, and I had a call from a certain gentleman enRar.ed in teaching and so on at the university, very much alarmecl and upset.. Obviously he did not hear all that I said, and I mean, the proposition that he put to me was a very serious one. He has quite a number of students, he has been lookinr, for a small piece of equipment for two years nm-1 and has not been able to get it. I told him, as I am sure all members here would, we are

February 22, 1977, Tape 485, Page 3 -- apb · MR. NOLAN: not a~ainst that t~pe of individual getting what he needs to teach classes. Now here is someth1~ for ministers to consider, if they have not heard it already from the civil service you will, and that is - let me give you an example; supposing you send an official of your department or he g.oes down to buy, S?Y a projector.- I .iust use that as an example - and he is told because of cost restrictions and this that and the other that they must not be footloose and fancy-free with public money, to get the best; price.

So here is your civil servant standing here at this counter and here is someone from the university at the same ~ounter next t.o him; this cha.p from the ~o-.rermnent buys Volkswagen, if you know what I mean, and here is the other guy buying Cadilac. How do you justify that? HR ._'!-~~GAN : (Inau dible) . MR. NOLAN: Exactly right. I mean, hm11 do you appear to be reasonable about this? How do you appear to be reasonable about this? 132f!

February 22, 1977 Tape 486 PK- 1 Mr. Nolan: It is absolutely terrible what is going on. And I suggest to you that one of thosedays someone is going to demand a real investigation of Memorial University. Now I know that people in responsible positions in this Province in the past~and again in the not too distant past who 7if they even suggest what I am talking about or what perhaps the member for St. John's Easr (Mr. Marshall) may have referred to from time to time, who are told in no uncertain terms if you proceed along this course we will quit. Now I say let them quit. Do not be black~ailed.

Do not be blackmailed by people like that. If they have the best interest of the University at heart and the people of this Province at heart do not be blackmailed by threats of this nature. They are the servants of the people just as much as we are, and it is about time we faced up to thar responsibility. I suppose I have to vote for this bill. I would like to vote against it. I feel the Board of Regents should be speaking out if they truely represent the people in this Province.

When is the last time one of them open their mouths to bring to the attention of anyone in this Province that there might be something wrong up there? ~ben? And as long as they remain silent, as long as this continues I am sorry to say that we are going to be in for some trouble. I believe the University will continue to be looked upon with some suspicion. And if that University crew,in certain positions~can shut us up then we all should be flung out, it is as simple as that, and let them take over the whole Province. They will tell you they can run it anyway. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member from Twillingate. MR. J. S}~LWOOD: . Mr. Speaker, at the bottom of the printed bil~, I have not got my copy, there is a Clause (4) "No action or proceedings may be brought against the University without first obtaining the written consent of the Attorney General to the bringing of the action." Now is that the case also with all the other Crown corporations? You have the Hydro Commission, you have the Liquor Commission, you have the various Housing Corporations, you i'l'ln

February 22, 1977 Tape 486 PK - 2 :Hr. Smalh10od : have the Paper Mill Corporation at Stephenville, and there must be a good many other Crown corporations as apparently the University is.. The University may not be sued under this, except with the permission of the Attorney General. Is that true of the other 09rporations? And then secondly, is the government ~ow ~ may the government now be sued without the government's permission? Down through 1 almost from the beginning of time,governments could not be sued except with their consent, I think, that is gone is it not? .,. AN HON MEMBER: Yes . MR.

SMALLWOOD: Well what is the case - and the Attornery General might oblige us by setting us right on it. We are asked now to pass a law saying that without the Attorney General's consent the University may not be sued. Is that " true of other Crow~ corporations? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from St. John's East. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the observation that the hon. member from ~rillingQte made is one that I was also going to make, and had a note of it. Now this particular

Section (~) is the same as the entire Section (46) in the principal Act, this is the way it was before. But I think the question we have to address our­ selves to is whether it should remain? This government adopted as a matter of policy when it came into office- one of the Acts it took was to permit actions to be taken against the Crown itself for ~egligence and to permit them to widen the scope whereby a private citizen may take action against the government. Now I do not think that Memorial University)subject to any explanation the hon.

Attorney General may have to make, I do not think that the government would really intend that the University should be in any different and more privileged a position, certainly, than the gqvernment of this Province. And to provide that no person may take an action ., or proceeding taken against the University without obtaining the written consent of the Attorney General to bringing of the action, I myself do not feel that it is an appropriate

section even though it was in before. And I think that perhaps the government 1331.

February 22, 1977 Tape 486 PK - 3 Mr. Marshall: might consider in Committee stage 7 when this passes, taking a look at it for the purpose of having it dropped. Because the way it now works is that if there is any action that can be taken 1332

February 22, 1977 Tape No. 487 MR. MARSHALL: against the university by a third party as a result of any negligent act by one of the servants of the university, or as a result of there being some defect in the university's property or what have you, and somebody is injured.,that the consent of the Attorney General has to be obtained. Now we all know that actions from time to time can prove to be embarrassing, both to the university - MR. SMALLWOOD: A student burning to death. MR.

MARSHALL: This type of thing, You knm-T,there are many combinations of things which could prove to be embarrassing NM- 1 to the government o'r embarrassing to the universitv~and I do not say that the university should be in any different position than any other private concern "~>7hen it comes to this asoect of the matter. As a matter of fact,I certainly do not think it should be in any different position than the government. But I very strongly would suggest to the govern~ent that it might consider - Now the bon. the Government House Leader .. - AN HON. MEHBER: The Governor is here.

MR. lfARSHALL: I realize the Governor is here~ and we do not want to keep the Governor, but also the hon. poor lo"~>7ly member for St. John's East wishes to make a point and intends to make it. So the point has been made and I would hope that as I say the government would consider in Committee to removing this from the section. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! :MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: What· I was going to say, Mr. Speaker, that sub-section 46 (4) which was taken as the hon. gentleman from St. John's East (Mr.

Marshall) pointecl out, from the old act: In my opinion, and it is a point made by the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood),has no place there any more. 1333

~ . February 22, 1977 Tape No. 487 MR. HICKMAN: Three years ago this government brought before the House a bill which destroyed that old position, well established, that the Queen could not be sued except by petition, the Petition of Right Act, and gave the !ight of any person living in Newfoundland the right to •·sue the Crown if he or she feels they have a good cause of action. I will, without any hesitancy, and I am sure NM- 2 my colleague, the bon. Minister of Education wil concur, move in Committee to delete four and democracy will triumph. MR. SPEAKER: If the hon. minister speaks now he closes the debate.

The hon. Hinister of Education. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, responding to the gentlemen who spoke particularly about the university.! would just lik~ to remind them that I had a very difficult time at thP nniu .. r .. it-v, a little while ago, saying some of the same things that you people were saying. So you are not alone in admitting some of the frustrations that we have with the unviersity. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear~ Hear! MR. ROUSE: But this particular part, 46 (1), (2), and (3) here I think principally what it is doing is what I stated at the beginning,is doing something to rectify something that is not clear.

It was meant to put the Board of Regents and the Senate in the same light as the Technical College Board, the Fisheries College Board and school boards,where the individual does not have personal liability.in any action he takes in his work. And that is something that they have been acting in that capacity all along, thinking they had it that way. I believe that was the intent of the original legislation, but now because the insurance people say that they are- it is not clear whether they are liable or not, we have to get it rectified. And this is just putting it in line with everything else, good common· sense.

So I move the second reading of this bill.

February 22, 1977 Tape No. 487 On motion a bill, "An Act To Amend Memorial Univers