PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 20 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, APRIL 16, 1971 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

April 16, 1971, Tape 289, Page 1 -- apb The House met at 11:00 a.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair (Noel): PRESENTING PETITIONS: PRESENTING REPORTS OF STANDING AND SELECT COMMITTEES: NOTICE OF MOTIONS AND QUESTIONS: !JON .L.R.CURTIS_ (MEuster of Justice): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce four Bills, a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Statute Law." A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The

Summary Jurisdiction Act." A Bill, "

An Act To Amend The Survivorship Act, 1963. '' A Bill, 1

An Act Further TO Amend The Wills Act. 1· HON. E. DAWE (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): _ Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to give notice of a Bill on tomorrow, A Bill, 'An Act To Repeal The Department Of Municipal Affairs (Amendment) Act, 1969. '· JION._G.A.FRECKER _(Minister of Provincial Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow beg leave to introduce three Bills entitled as follows; "An Act Further To·Amend The Insurance Companies Tax Act.'

An Act Further To Amend The Insurance Companies Contracts Act, 1961.' ''An Act Further To Amend The Fire Insurance Act, 1957. •· HON. __ E.S.JONES (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on tomorrow I will ask leave to introduce a Bill, ''An Act Further To Amend The Stamp Act.,, !!_O_!'l'_. W.J.S:Af:.LAHAN (Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources)..:. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill, 'An Act To Amend The Livestock (Health) Act, 1964." HON.S.A.NEARY (Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation): Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave of the House to introduce five Bills, titled, 'An Act Further To Amend The Children Of Unmarried Parents Act, 19fi4.' '

An Act To Amend The Elevators Act, 1969." "An Act Further To Amend The Annual Vacations With Pay Act, 1969." "An Act Further To Amend The Child Welfare Act, 1964. '' and, ''An Act Further To Amend The Adoption Of Children Act, 1964.' ~ON~- F~~-ROWE (Minister of Community and Social Development): Mr. Speaker, I

April 16, 1971, Tape 289, Page 2 -- apb give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Community And Social Development Act, 1966.'' ORDERS OF THE DAY: HON. F.W.ROWE: (Minister of Education): for answers to questions? I am sorry Mr. Speaker, did you ask MR. SPEAKER (Noel): Yes I asked for notice of motions and answers to questions. MR. ROWE: I see, I am sorry. I just have a couple of answers to give. Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to question no. (76), asked by the hon. member for Burin.

The answer I give here is a general one, and applies to all that type of petition. The Department of Education of course, does not build water and sewage systems in communities, either for the community or institutions. When a petition of.that kind does come in we refer it to the appropriate authority, which in this case would be insofar as the school is concerned, the Board of Education concerned, and the Denominational Educational Authority concerned, in this case the Integrated Educational Committee.

Also, since it might be a municipal involvement we send copies, or send the petition or copies of it to the Department of Municipal Affairs for their information, and in some cases I suppose possible action. That is no.(76), the hon. member who asked that is not here, but perhaps his colleagues could pass on that information to him. I have the answer to question no. (84), which was asked respecting pharmaceutical courses at the College of Trades and Technology. On that I should like to remind hon. members that the College of Trades and Technology is now enjoying the same status as the university.

It is under the control by act of this Legislature of a Board of Governors. It is therefore independent academically of the Government in the same way as the university is, and naturally there has to be of course at times, when additional expenditures are involved, there,-has to be collaboration between those institutions and the Government,through the Department of Education or the Department of Health or what ever department is directly involved. This information,therefore, that I have here now is in a sense not mine. I forwarded the question to the President of t~e College, Mr.

Duggan, and he was kind enough (he did not have to do it) but he was kind enough to send 1380

April 16, 1971, Tape 289, Page 3 -- apb along the information. I am going to table this,Mr. Speaker, because, it is a little lengthy. There are sone matters of interest, and if with the permission of my hon. friend from St. John's West, I ·would like,howe~er, to make just two short references there. If he d·oes not intend to rise to a Point of Order, I would like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that this information states that the College is now instituting a three year course in pharmacy, ,hat is number

(1) Number (2), that they have recieved applications from 103, interested parties not all of whom,of course, necessarily will have the required academic qualifications. Number (3), that the course will accommodate twenty~five first year students starting,of course,in the . coming year. If all goes well we hope to see,in the next three years, a very good expansion to our pahrm.acy services in Newfoundland. I am going to table this. I have enough copies here for the press and for some hon. members that may be interested as well. HON._ J .R .CHALKER (Minister of Public Works):_ Mr.

Speaker, I have the answer to question no. (320), on the Order Paper of March 31st. asked by the hon. member for St. John's Centre, and I wish to table same. MR. SPEAKER: Further answers to questions: ORDERS OF THE DAY: HON.J.R.SMALLWOOD (Premier): Mr. Speaker, there were two or three things said in the present debate to which I would like, as briefly as I can , to reply. The first is what was said in this debate by the hon. the member for St. John's East about a piece of land in the area where Holiday Inn now stands.

I was greatly surprised, and at least tentatively shocked, I was not actually shocked because, I felt that there might be a perfectly reasonable explanation. I did not know whether there was, but I felt that there might very well be a reasonable explanation, but I was certainly surprised. This morning I telephoned to the man in question,Mr. Arthur Lundrigan,at his home in Corner Brook.

I began to tell him of the statements made in the House by the hon. member when he interupted me and said, "yes I know, I heard it on the radio this morning." I said, "yes, well, I do not know how thoroughly the radio account covered what was said by the member for St. John's

April 16, 1971, Tape 289, Page 4 -- apb East," so I said, "I will tell you my recollection of what he said. ,. He said,' ' all right, ' and I did. I think I reported faithfully what the hon. member said in this House. Having done so, I said, "now Arthur, what happened?" and Mr. Speaker, I will tell you what he told me. I do not know that what he told me is true. I believe it to be true, but I do not know.

He told me that a couple of years, approximately a couple of years before there was any tho ught at all of Holiday Inns coming to this Province, he,as representative of AVIS, the AVIS Motor Car Rental Agencv in this Province,bought a piece of land at the spot where Holiday Inns later, a couple of years later,was built. It seems that AVIS bought a piece of land in British Columbia precisely at the western terninal of the T~ans Canada Highway, precisely, and that they wanted a piece of land precisely at the eastern end of the Trans Canada Hi~hway which happens to be exactly where Holiday Inns today stands.

That is the end of the Trans Canada Highway. We had a sign here in front of this building saying, with a map of Canada, British Columbia to St. John's and showing the Trans Canada Highway, # ·rhe Trans Canada starts here.' Well, it does not start here, it starts at Holiday Inns, and it ends at a point in British Columbia. Or, if you prefer, it starts at a point in British Columbia and ends here at Holiday Inns. SOME HON. MEMBERS: --- --- - (Inaudible) ~..R. SMALLWOOD: Who is the Newfoundland minister? Modesty prevents you from telling. I have not seen this sign in British Columbia. ~ _!!9N.

MEMBER: It is at Vancouver Island. MR. SMALLWOOD: On Vancouver Island. Avis wanted , for advertising reasons I suppose,to own a piece of land at each precise end, western and eastern,spanning Canada, so they could say for instance, •· we have all Canada between us, between our two Rental Agency offices, · bookends." So, he bought the piece of land for $15 thousand. They did not get round at once to building the building they planned to do, and before they did the decision was taken by the Government to build a Holiday Inn there. A Crown Corporation was set up for that purpose.

The Crown Corporation looked around to see who owned the land at the point where they wanted to build the hotel. They discovered some owners,,including Arthur -' C"I r , o

April .i6, 1971, Tape 289, Page 5 -- apb , L~~drigan or,if it was not Arthur Lundrigan, it was the Lundrigan firm acting for AVIS. He said, "well, I do not want to sell it. I did not buy it to sell it. That was not my reason for buying it. I want to use it.' "But we want to build a big hotel there.n "Well, I cannot stand in the way of that." And obviously the building corporation, I suppose it would be Mr.

Dustan,would say to him; •'lt would not be much use your trying to stop it, it is the Crown and we are going to have it anyway." So he said,"well all right, get me an equivalent piece of J~nd and you can take it, but it has to be a piece of land here in this immediate neighbourhood, because it has to be precisely at the eastern end of the Trans Canada Highway." The Government said, ''all right.' The Government paid him one dollar for the piece of land, and the remainder of the payment was to consist of an equivalent piece of land, so he would make one dollar cash profit.

He would get an equivalent piece of land and also one dollar. Well he got the one dollar, the Government were not able to deliver him a piece of land. They could not find a piece of land, or if there is still a piece of land still there at this moment, a piece of land •..• (I wish that baby crying was my grandchild or great-grandchild, but however, she is awfully welcome, or he is 1whoever he or she maybe,could not be more welcom~ No one could be more welcome than that child. Do not mind a little bit of crying. I am used to much worse than that from over there. MR. MURPHY: The baby is not a stranger. MR.

EARLE: The baby is on the right side. MR. SMALLWOOD: There is a piece of land there, immediately beside Holiday Inn, with an old barn on it. It is still there at this moment. The Government, or the Crown Agency for the Government, tried to buy that piece of land and they wanted $90 thousand for it. The Government would not pay $90 thousand. The Governmentwere not able to buy a piece _of land at a price that would have been scandalous, and told Lundrigan so. Lundrigan said; "well,all right, in that case,if you cannot get me an equivalent piece of land,pay me cash for it,$50 thousand.

The Crown Agency paid him $50 thousand,which was a lower rate than a number of pieces of land were bought all around in that immediate area. Three, four, five different sales were made of land, bits and pieces of land, right there in that immediate vicinity,at prices higher than the price paid to Lundrigan. 1 ')(>')

April 16, 1~71, Tape 289, Page 6 -- apb Of course, I am only repeating what ~.r. Lundrigan told me. I do not know if other pieces of land were bought, and if they were, I do not know the prices at which they were bought. I do not know who bought them, and I do not know who sold them. I am merely repeating to the House what Mr. Lundrigan told me on the telephone this morning. He added this," I still want the piece of land. I would rather­ have the piece of land to serve the original purpose that AVIS had in mind. I would rather have that than the money.

Give me the piece of land and I will halld the money back, but I want one or the other.'' So far the Govermnent has been able to give him only the money,at a rate of pay lower than that for which land was bought all around that immediate area.

April 16th, 1971 Tape 290 JM - 1 MR. SMALLWOOD: Now I having got this account from Mr. Lundrigan invited my colleagues to a Cabinet meeting this morning and reported these alleged facts to the Cabinet. I suggested to the Cabinet that we appoint a Royal Commission of one, it is hardly a big enough matter for a Royal Commission of more than one, preferably a lawyer, definitely a lawyer who would be independent, most assuredly a lawyer who had no connection whatever with the Government or with Mr. Lundrigan or the Lundrigan Firm or Avis, a competent, independent lawyer of admitted and acknowledged integrity.

My colleagues concurred unanimously in my recommendation and we made the decision, the decision has been made, we have decided to appoint a Royal Commission and further­ more I have approa~hed a very prominent lawyer, quite independent of the Government and quite independent of the Lundrigans and quite independent of Avis and asked him to accept appointment as a Royal CollDJlission of one to take such steps as he please to investigate the statements made in this House by the hon. member for St. John's East. A copy of Hansard would be found and delivered to the Royal Commissioner.

He would hold such sessions as it pleased him to hold. rhe sessions would be private or public as it pleased him to do. He would invite such persons as he cared to invite and such documents and such witnesses as he wished to have.

He would have a completely free hand and the report he would make would be published, would be made public and he would asked, he has been asked,to do this thing immediately, not take a year, not take six months, not take three months, not take one month for surely even a busy lawyer in the next two or three weeks should be able to hold the necessary hearings and get the necessary evidente and then write a report. That lawyer has expressed a willingness to do it but asks that he might have a few hours to think it over before giving me a final answer.

I do hope that he will accept the appointment so that he can begin at once. I know that his name,if he does accept it,will be honoured by the Opposition and by the members of the House, the members of the House on this side and by the public in general. I do not know what the Royal Commissioner will find. I suspect what he will find but I certajnly do not know, The hon. 13S5

April 16th, 1971 MR. SMALLWOOD: Tape 290 JM - 2 gcu=l~man who made these statements in the House yesterday offered no opinions of his own, He,merely cited facts that he had gathered in the official Registry of Companies and Deeds and Documents and he had searched these documents or had someone do it for him and merely recited the names and dates and figures of the various transactions and he may perhaps have expressed some opinion.

Certainly he did declare that the Government ought to answer these, the Government ought to explain these transactions,and in this I could not agree more heartily and my colleagues could not agree more heartily and we have determined that the matter will be thoroughly looked into and publicly reported. MR. MARSHALL: Would the hon. Premier permit a question? MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, of course. MR. MARSHALL: Would the hon.

Premier also perhaps,while he is speaking on this matter, explain why the powers of expropriation were not used, why the sum of $1.00 was also used in a transaction from Lundrigans,Limited to this Crown Company,which is really the Government,with respect to the transfer of land over in Corner Brook as well? MR. SMALLWOOD: What in Corner Brook? MR. MARSHALL: Will the commissions terms of reference be expanded? MR. SMALLWOOD: Of what in Corner Brook? MR. MARSHALL: The land in Corner Brook, I believe, in Corner Brook,on Park Avenue , was acquired from Lundrigans , Limited and $1.00 was used as well. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Well, I will find out about that. I did not hear about that before any more than I had heard of the matter that the hon. gentleman mentioned here yesterday. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. Premier realizes then that it is not the entire area as he intimated to the House before, it is only a small portion of the area involved. MR. SMALLWOOD: The area involved is the area on which Holiday Inn ~is built and the area surrounding it,and the area that Mr.

Lundrigan is involved in is only an acre or half an acre or something between half an acre and an acre , and the amount of land involved is six, seven or eight acres. It is a fair 1386

April 16th, 1971 MR. SMALLWOOD: Tape 290 slice of land under and surroundi~g Holiday Inn. MR. MARSHALL: What about the power of expropriation? JM - 3 MR. SMALLWOOD: · The power of expropriation is there and it is frequently used but not always. MR. MARSHALL: May I ask why it was not used in this particular instance? MR. SMALLWOOD: I do not know. I have no idea. The Royal Commission could find that out,why the Government did not or the Crown Corporation did not expropriate the land,which they frequently do and frequently 40 not do.

I dare say they negotiate the purchase of land as frequently as they expropriate it. MR. EARLE: It usually costs more to expropriate. MR. SMALLWOOD: We have found, our experience has been that land costs us more when we expropriate and follow with an arbitration, ~ Board of Arbitration, nearly invariably, almost invariably awards a higher price than we could have bought it for.

Again and again we have had the unfortunate experience, the Minister of Highways and other Ministers of the Crown, the Minister of Public Works especially, again and again on dozens and perhaps on scores of occasions , maybe hundreds but certainly on scores of occasions the Government have negotiated to buy a piece of land and the owner was not satisfied or the Government was not satisfied.

The Government offered this much and the owner would not accept it or the owner asked this much and the Government would not pay it and it ended in arbitration and,invariably, invariably we have -had to pay more for it than we tried to negotiate. MR. MARSHALL: $83,000. an acre ever paid? MR. SMALLWOOD: I do not know about that one case, that is for a Royal Commission and the hon. gentleman might save his snide remarks until the report is made. MR. MARSHALL: When the report is made. MR. SMALLWOOD: When the report is made, yes he might save his snide remarks, his snide little remarks until then. MR.

MARSHALL: I will look forward to it with anticipation. MR. SMALLWOOD: Perhaps now he is a little dismayed over the action we are 1387

April 16th, 1971 MR. SMALLWOOD: Tape 290 JM - 4 t .. k.i.ug .i.n the matter• Se· that as it may, Mr.

Speaker, I am going to ask this House to attempt an exercise in imagination to make a conscience effort to imagine New-foundland, this Province, without the 6,000 miles of new roads that have been built since Confederation . including the Trans Canada Highway, I am going to ask the House to try,by a deliberate and conscience effort of the imagination,to picture Newfoundland without the 1,400 miles of paving that has been done since Confederation and I am going to ask hon. members to try to imagine Newfoundland this morning,with 800 different settlements in it that are connected now by road that were not connected by road at the coming of Confederation, no 6,000 miles of road, no 1,400 miles of paving, no Trans Canada Highway, no 800 settlements connected by road - you can get into them only~as you did(before they were connected) get in by helicopter, get in by boat, you could walk in over the bogs and rocks and through the bush but no road.

I am going to ask the House to try to imagine what would be the state of this Province this morning if there had not been built the 1,000 new schools that have been built since Confederation, to imagine the state of Newfoundland if we did not have these twelve great Trade Schools that we do have and the tens of thousands of young men and women who have gone through them, if we did not have the College of Fisheries and the 12,000 young men and women who have gone through that, if we did not have the Technical College and if we did not have the University.

I ask the House to try to picture Newfoundland this morning if we dig not have even one of the thirty-nine new public libraries that we have built, the five Arts and Culture Centres, the nine recreational centres - rinks and so on, I ask the House to try 1 if they are capable of doing it, I am not capable - to imagine what Newfoundland would be like today if the thirty-nine new public libraries and twenty-five new hospitals and clinics were not here, if we did not have them, if we did not have the great new

section of the hospital down at the General, if we did not build a great new Mental Hospital in here, if we did : not build a hospital in Grand Falls or Gander or Corner Brook or Springdale or Baie Verte or Fogo, if we did not build one in Happy Valley or Labrador City or the equivalent of two new hospitals in Corner Brook, if we 1308

April luth,. 1971 MR. SMALLWOOD: Tape 290 JM - 5 did not build one in Springdale, if we did not build one in Port aux Basques, if we did not build one in Grand Bank.

I ask the House to try to imagine what Newfoundland would be like,in addition to the lack of all these things,if it also lacked the great new parks, thirty, forty parks we have built, the 30,000 new houses, 30,000 new homes, new houses, new dwellings that were not here when Confederation came when we took office,and ask the House to try to imagine too60,000 new houses, not new houses, houses that had no electricity in them twenty-two years ago, no electricity they had kerosene oil and some of them.the better off.had aladdin lamps but ordinarily they had the ordinary old fashioned kerosene oil lamps twenty-two years ago, tty to picture the 60,000 homes there are, that have been given electricity since Confederation,if they did not have it today.

At the coming of Confederation exactly one half of the homes there were in Newfoundland had electricity, one half, slightly more 50.2, fifty and tw0-tenths over one per-cent ,say fifty and one quarter per-cent. Tad~y it is ninety-seven per-cent, ninety-seven homes out of every hundred have electricity. I ask the House to try to picture what Newfoundland would be like this morning if we did not have the 65 new water and sewer systems that have been built, try to picture Newfoundland without iL.

I ask the House to try to imagine what Newfoundland would be like today if she did not have the 181 new hotels, motels and tourist homes with 2;400 beds for tourists and travellers,that we did not have at the coming of Confederation, 181 new hotels, motels and tourist homes.

I ask the House to try_.with all those things lacking,try to picture Newfoundland lacking also, on top of all that, lacking the thirty-eight new fish plants with draggers, most of them with draggers, thirty-eight new fish plants that have been built since the coming of Confederation and to imagine Newfoundland without the more than 500 longliners we have today and without the more than 500 new smaller sized fishing boats that we have today and without the 1;600 new fishing boat engines, 1,600, all of these - the fish plants, the draggers, the longliners, the smaller fishing boats, the fishing engines, all of these giving jobs to 16,000 wage workers and fishermen each year now - 13C9

April 16tJ,. 1'-l7.l Tape 291 Pl ' - l .J\nd then s:lso without some fourteen industrial nlants ;:md rnines that we have, trv to pi.cture Newfoun-dl,and without therr,, those inrlustrial plants and mines which enploy 200,500 men and women, mostly men, ::1nd nayinp out over $1 million a month in wa!!'es. Picture NewfC\und]and Pithout it. Vr. Speal:er , we would have none of these thinP-:s, but for the Public Debt. Tt is the Public Debt th Rt p.ave us these things. We had to t 1·,ank the Public Debt for them. There was no other way to get them.

There ,,,as no other way, there is n.o other way, but by creating :Public Deht. T'.ut you see these thinp.:s cost hundreds of millions of dollars to nut there, hundreds of millions, and certainly it would have reen totally impossible t0 r:et that money hy taxinP. the people for a very good reason, ~he people did not have it.

You could not have ~ot that money. those hundreds of millions out of the T'eople by taxation. with which to build those roads and schools and hospitals and houses and water and sewer systems and hotels and fish plants and factories and mines and, if these thini,s that I hiwe recited did not exist there Pould be no Newfoundland today. There would he no Newfoundland. There !T'ipht he an apology for our nresent day Newfoundland. a nale shadow of it.

A miserable wret ched shadot , o r the Newf,::,uncU.an d ot today. there mjpht indeed be, if ,,re had not had those thinr.s , which we die\ pet and have now P:ot, +'hanks to the Puhlic Debt.

I asked the House Ph;it would the people of Newfoundland rather have? fot have these things ana no Ot!llL, or these thinP:s and the dehtsi !'low is there any rational-minded ro<)n, ,,rho is -iot half fosane with hatred or jealousy or fu1ot'tation or humil:lation i :s there any man in h1s sane condition of mind, :my Newfoundlander who would not say we were ri~ht, we Newfoundlanders were ripht, we ,,rere rip.ht to pet these thins:,s and to contract deht to get theml Recause without the debt we could not pet them. There is no way to get them ..,7ithout creating debt. Yes, 'l-7e have debt, Pe have debt.

We have a Public Debt. It is a hip: Public Debt. but 600,000 miles of roads is a hig asset. Fourteen hundred miles of paved road is a b:! !!: asset. A thousand ne,,, schools is a hip: asset. Fe have

April 16th. 1971 Tape 291 rK - 2 r-1~ ~~~.:'LW00D_:_ the l 1ahility of the dehts, but WP have enormous assets. He have somethinp. to sho~• for the dehts.

And if we haJ not hacl theM, Pould yeu sup'!'ose, ~•r. ~peaker, do you think there was a chance in Hell or Heaven that the neople of Newfound] anci would now number over 500,000. l1ltrost 200,000 more than the day I became Premier of th:!.s Province.: no you think vre would have half a million here, ~f we had not huilt the thousand schools and the twenty-eirht, thirty-eip.:ht hospitals, and the roads and the pavinp and the fish nlants and the mines and the factories and the electricity and the water and sewer systems and the housi.nr? no you trink you 'il'oulci have the Population you have toda~!? 1-Jas this not an ahsolutPly necessary spendinr? 1,13s it not r1hsolutely necessary for us to have these advantar-es, if we were to keep Nepfoundland alive?

If the young c,,:eneration r-rowin!' ur have not heen p.iven these advantap.:es, do vou think they ••:ould have had staved hereil 1f they had to crawl on their bellies to get out of Ne~,,founcHand.they would have crawled. To hold our Province, to hold our people these thinps had to he ~one. And there hacl to be a debt created to do them. There was no other w:w. no other way. Now T spoke of these fi.sh plants, and dn1p.gers and lonpliners and sr1aller fj_shinp boats _ engines and pear. We spoke of these srivinp e!Tl.nloyl'lent to 16,000 Ne1-rfoundlanders, 16,0(JQ that would not have jobs.

They would he unemployed, hut they would not he in Nepfoundland. They would he tmemployed somewhere else or employed somewhere else. but they uould he somewhere, they would not he here. At this moment, Mr. Speaker, $'..'.9 milli.on of our det--t, our T'uhlic Deht, our own Deht and the Debt of others that we have guaranteed call it all one if you li.ke, $29 million of it that is owed at this minute. either owed hy the ~ewfoundland Government or owed by the plants on our guarantee, ·the total is $29 million.

You look at our Newfoundland Debt and you can mark off immediately $29 million of it that is at present in the fishing industry. The fishing industry, the fish plants and fish establishments, and the dra~gers and the hoats and all the rest of it. 13 2 J

April 16th. 1971 Tape 291 PK - 3 I'R. SMALLPOOD· Mr. Speaker, they are worth today $61 million. We do not own them. I think, we do own one or two . T think. we own the plant at LaScie. The Government huilt that and we own it. It is our property. We own the fish plant in Harystown, we built that and it is our property, throup:h a Cro"m Corporation, and we have made a deal whereby that hig­ company that is operatinp: it are allowed to huy it, when they pay off the debt. But the debt is still there. So we own it. Rut, the big part of the fishing industry we do not own.

It is o"med by comnan1.es and indivirluals. fishennen at' d groups, companies of all kinds. And it is worth $61 million. But $29 million of our Public Debt is part of that $61 million. Please bear that in mind when I come to another point a little later in talking about the Public Debt. Sixty-one million is the value of the industry, the property in the industry and of that $29 million is in our Fuhlic Debt and accounts ,to that extent,for our Public Debt.

I would like for the House to remember these two fip:\.:res "61", "29' • I have a note here to answer a point made hy the hon. the member, the hon. the ,iealous memher for St. John's West, when he talked about tax, our piling up the tax, especially in the last five years. Income tax, for example. Personal Income Tax that the individual pays on his income to the Canadian. Government and to the ?,ewfoundland Government.

Corporation Incorrie Tax, the tax that corporations. companies pay to the Canadian Government and the ~ewfoundland Government on their profit, their income, their net income. /Ind the Sales Tax,what we pay in Newfoundlancl. How we 11ile these taxes sky-hi?-h, especially in the last five years. Mr. Speaker, our Newfoundland <:oven1ment or our Newfoundland 1.;ouse of Assembly:Corporation Income Tax, the tax that was imposed by this Eouse, this House passed the Law, imposing a tax on the profits of corporations, a Newfoundland tax of thirteen percent.

Now thev nay more than that because they pay Ottawa a lot and we get hack a share of what they pay Ottawa. 1.n additional to what they pay us, we get also a share of what they pay Ottawa. 1"' :·;)

i) f,...:,, ~

April 16th. 1971 Tape 291 PK - 4 !-IP-. Sl'fALLl-!Ono: But our tax is thirteen percent of the profits of corporations on their taxable income. Thirteen percent, re!'len,ber the fil'ure. That is the highest in Canada, of any nrovince, except for one province, the Provine~ of t,fanitoba. whj_ch also imposes a tax of thirteen pre cent. The Province of Ouehec -f.nmoses a tax of twelve percent. The Province of Saskatcher-•an imposes a tax of eleven percent. The Province of Alherta a tax of eleven percent. Tiut, we are the hiphest, we and Manitoha.

Rememher what I al71 saving. the h1.p.-hest cornorat i.on tax on the profits of cornoratj ems is collected hy this Government and by the Government of !'anitoba , which is an NDP Government at the mor.1ent, it Pas Tor y . But now take the "Persnnal Income Tax, the tax on indlviduals. what the members of this House , on hoth sides , pay. What t},e p:eneral pu}-, lie nay . The oeop]e, the fishermen, the lOR!?ers, the miners, the railroaders, the teachers . the clerks, the civil servants, everyone i,,hat thev nay , the Personal Incol'le Tax. In Hanitoha it is thirty-nine percent.

In New llrunsr -:-ic'J.'. thirty-eipht. In Sa9JratchePan thi.rty-four. Tn ~ewfoundland thf.rtv-tliree. We are al'!ong the lowest Personal Income Tax in Canada. T have ;m uneasv feelinr. that T have reversed these fir.ures. No. J have not, no. No. these are correct. Now t·a~e the Sales Tax. ~ew Brunswick has an eight percent sale s tax. Fight percent. ('!uebec has an eipht percent sales tax. Nova f;cotia h:i!'l a seven percent sales tax. Little Prince Edward [slanrl has a seven nercent sales tax and }!ewfoundland has the seven percent sales t·a~.

There are two other provinces that have the same amount as we rlo, and there are t'-TO that have more than we have. Y<>.t to hear the hon. gentleman sneakinp passionately .,with indipnati.on, with his voice rinp-inr. with 11nl!uish for the fate of the people, you would think to hear him, his words and his tone and the look on his face, you would think that this Government haver-one mad in heapine the taxes high on

April 16 • -1971 Tape 292 page 1. the shoulders uf aur people, they have not. MR.CROSBIE: Would the PremieY permit a question? The Provinces that he mentions with high rates of personal income tax, is it a fact that they also have much higher per capita income, much higher personal disposable in~eme per capita. MR.SMALLWOOD: Yes, they have they are older provinces and they have had the benefits of Confederation much longer than we have !-;i.d. Wil' are only trying and we have much more lost ground and lost time to make up for• much more.

We have narrowed the gap between them and us, Twenty-two years ago the difference betweo:,r; us on the one hand and No1ra Scotia on the other was a world of difference. A world! An Age] A whole Age in between us and them t But not todayl Not today! Today that gap has been greatly narrowed. We are much closer today to the standard of Nova Scotia than we were and the standard of New Brunswick . I do not know but we have a higher standard than New Brunswick. HR.CROSBIE: We fell behind, Nova Scotia advanced much further than us 1%5 -f-170. personal disposable income MR.SMALLWOOD: I did not hear that.

Nova Scotia has advanced and we have advanced and all Provinces in Canada have advanced and Canada as a whole has advanced but Newfoundland has advanced more, much more, much. much more. I wish I had my own book here - if I had thought of it I would have brought it along - I gave the figures there from DBS, Dominion Bureau of Statistics, of the percentages of increase in twenty things, comparing all the Provinces, Newfoundland leads ell the Provinces in about twelve of them. In Housing we lead all Canada, away ahead of any other Province. In the number of new cars ahead of all other Provinces.

In the number of the amount of investment in 13<.''-1

April 16, 19 71 Tape 292 page 2. natural resources,away ahead of all Provinces. In the development of schools, in the development of Hospitals, in a.number of absolutely essential, vital, fundamental things the things that make the difference between a growing Province and a dying Province . in these matters we have led all Canada. "Kave I a copy of the book here?" "No, I have not. " MR.CROSBIE: What about the gasoline tax? MR.SMALLWOOD: Perhaps someone would be kind enough to go down in my office and bring me up a copy of my own book, "To You With Affection." Mr.

Speaker, I heard here in this House , from the Hon. gentleman who represents temporarily in th i s House the District of St. John's West. Having gone Tory of course he is a goner, becoming a Tory. He has announced publicly that in the coming election he is going to vote Tory. He hopes his friends will vote Tory and I may tell him he has two friends sitting over there with him who are not going to vote Tory. They will not follow him, one has quit altogetheir, Mr. Wells. The other two that are left are not going to vote Tory. They are not going to follow him.

If the hon. gentleman would do today what he intends to do after the House closes,if he would do that now, then the two that are there would walk at.•ay from him now. They would refuse to sit with hl'lll if he would do now what he intends to do afterwards,to join the Tory Party ,which is what he intends to do. He is going to join the Tory Party and become a member of it. He is that now in everything but name. He is a Leader now 1f he joins the Tories.he serves under the Leader and do not foFget it.

If he can hang on while the House is in session, until the House close s he is a Leader, he can make speeches ,, he gets extra time. He is a big shot. So you see the two leaders walking back and forth and conferring with each other. Oh, what a glorious feeling to be a 13Jj

April 16, 1971 Tape 292 page 3. Leader, at last he is a Leader. At last he is a Leader. hard to become a Leader and the people would not have it. He fought But he is a Leader now until the House closes. He may be a Leader then - MR.CROSBIE: That galls the Premier - MR.SMALLWOOD: No, it does not gall me, I am so delighted to see the hon. gentleman admit that he is a Tory. I am so glad he adinits,he confesses,he is a Tory. He called a fress Conference the other day and in the Press Conference he announced that he is going to vote Tory; he hopes his friends will vote Tory in the next election.

He was asked; Are you going to vote Tory yourself,join the Tory Party? He said; "I will tell you when the House closes, later on." Well I do not need to wait until later on. I know now what he is going to do. I know what he is going to do, He is going to join the Tory Party. he may - MR.CROSBIE: That upsets the Premier, MR.SMALLWOOD~' No, that does not upset me I am so pleased because I do not mind a whlf in sheep's clothing, I do not mind sheep in wolf's clothing, hut I despise a sheep in sheep's clothing. :!--IR.CROSBIE: Bai,1 MR.SMALLWOOD: That is it.

That is it, tte can baf and laugh all he likes but 1 can tell him something here this morning ,that every real Liberal in Newfoundland that did give him some support has now turned finally and flatly against him. MR. CROSBIE: Oh sure! MR.SMALLWOOD: The only people who are still with him are those who are Tories anyway. Those who are Tories anyway, they are still with hii.1. They are charmed with him. They are delighted with him. They love him to death. My Heavens, how happy they are that h"' has now confessed, an open confession, he is going to vote Tory. They are delighted but 13 .- ., •.• D

April 16, 1971 Tape 292 page 4. the Liberals are not, and there were decent sincere Liberals, devoted, and devout Liberals and Loyal Liberals in Newfoundland who voted for him and supported him for the Leadership and continue to be friendly to him until he made that confession, that he is going to vot'e Tory. MR.CROSBIE: Like Mr, Mccurdy - one of the N.T.A. people - hate monger. The Premier is - MR.SMALLWOOD: A man who stood down there and made the Nazi salute would you call him a hate-monger? MR.CROSBIE: No, I would not. MR.SMALLWOOD: i would.

MR.CROSBIE: Passionate Liberals - with a smile - MR.ROWE: All passionate Liberals use the Nazi salute? MR.CROSBIE: Some do and some do not. We can see dictatorship in this House. MR.SMALLWOOD: That is not his statement. Aw, come on, come on with the deceit. The press are not stupid. No, they are not. MR.CROSBIE: Official Liberal Statement. MR.S~.ALLWOOD: Yes, I would not be surprised if the hon. gentleman tried to make that stick, that he announced that. them, and everybody in the House knew it.

When in fact, he was quoting Let me give the hon. and doubtful member - MR.CROSBIE: The book of misleading statistics - MR.SM_ALLWOOD: They are true and they may mislead or they may le;-id. It depends on the brains of the one who reads them. I can explain a thing to anybody but only God can give him the brains to understand it when I do explain. MR.CROSBIE: Or twist it into pretzels - those statistics -

April 16, 1971 Tape 292 page 5, 1·\K. SMALLWOOD: Newfoundland, since she became a Province, she had in 1949, $115 million in Life Insurance in force, our people's lives, the people of Newfoundland had taken out Life Insurance with all the Life Insurance Companies, they have taken out Life Insurance running to a grand total of $115 million. As long ago as 1968, that is three years ap,o, it had risen to $770 million, from $115 million t9 $770 million. That is a higher rate than in any Province of Canada. MR.MURPHY: Has the Premier got - MR.SMALLWOOD: No, I have not.

I would not be a bit surprised, I would not be a bit surprised to learn that it was a substantial amount because there has been a substantial amount of unemployment in the last three years. That is right. This is true up and down the whole tlation of Canada and up and down the whok Nation of the United States of America. The day we became a Province of Canada we had thirty-seven branches of banks, hank branches, thirty-seven, three years ago we had 106, and they took a thousand people working in them just to count the Newfound- land people's money.

It took a thousand Newfoundlanders, in 106 Banks just to count the Newfoundland peo ple's money. Business Enterprises in Newfoundland, the whole lot of them put together,all of t~em, j•,:-<t;not 1949, I could not get that figure, but I did have it for 1951, which was four years after Confederation started. In 1951, there were 4,500 business ventures in Newfoundland, business establishments, 4,500. In 1968, 8,700, from 4,500 to 8,700. MR. MURPHY: Liquor licenses included I guess. MR.SMALLWOOD: No, they are not, Yes they are included in restaurants, snack bars, taverns etc., they are included in that line.

MR.MURPHY: Twenty-five per cent - MR.SMALLWOOD: No. Nonsense, the total number out of 8,700 is 1,100 of all the restaurants and snack bars and taverns in the whole Province, 13 C:3

April 16, 1971 Tape 292 page 6 . JR.MURPHY: How many did we have in 1949? MR.SMALLWOOD: Two hundred and fifty. The number of snack bars and restaurants in Newfoundland after 1951, up to now, the increase is staggering. You cannot travel around Newfoundland today, one of the most amazing phenomena is the number of snack bars. lhe number of jukebox joints where the youngsters in hundreds of thousands or in scores of thousands congregate in to drink their soft drinks and dance and buy their chocolate bars.

They are in hundreds upon hundreds of them., as well as beer taverns. lhe personal income of the Newfoundland people, their personal income,and this is what the hon. gentleman mentioned in particular the much higher personal income, in say Manitoba, than in Newfound­ land. True. True. True. True. Absolutely true. Too true, It is true and pity it is t~ue, hut it is true that our income is lower than the income of other Provinces. That is true, but it is not when you see where you are going ., what direction are you headed in, what is happening to you, not just as you are at this moment.

The personal income of the Newfoundland people from 1949, the first year of Confederation to 1967.which is the latest year I had it when I wrote this book. The latest year the DBS ~ere able to give it. The nersonal income of the Newfoundland people increased three hundred and thtrty seven per cent - 337 per cent - Now the second highest was Quebec. MR.CROSBIE: What are the figures? MR.SMALLWOOD: We were the highest - we were the highest - the absolute figures would be pitiful compared with the absolute figures of Quebec.

The personal income of the seven million in Quebec would make the personal income of tne half million of us Newfoundlanders look sick. But it is not the absolute amount it is what is happening, it is the direction we

April 16, 1971 Tape 292 page 7. are goin~ in. In that period of time .1949 to 1967 our personal income in Newfoundland, our people, increased 337 per cent. Quebec, 297 per cent, Alberta was third, 296, almost the same as Quebec.

British Columbia was fnuth, 295, Ontario was fifth, Ontario, the Empire State, the industrial heartland of Canada, the source of the most of Canada's wealth, Ontario,in the same period, her people's income increased 283, and Newfoundland led all the Provinces in the rates of increase - the rate of increase - True,after doing that, we were still the lowest, but we were increasing at a faster rate, We were catching up, we were bridging that gap, we were narrowing the gap all the time, that is what counts. That is what counts. Motor cars.

The number of motor cars for 1949 to 1967, how many years is that - sixteen, years, seventeen years, sixteen years, how many,, Eighteen years, I was pretty well in the middle was I not? I said seventeen, in eighteen years the percentage increase in the number of motor cars in Newfoundland was 696 per cent. Nearly sevenfold, seven times a~ many cars at the end of the eighteen years as at the start of it; 696. Quebec was second; J~rJ,tish Co~umbia 303 - sound like a rifle - Alberta 240; and New Brunswick 229. Now admittedly we have further to go to catch up so did Quebec.

But thanks Be To God we did catch up, not completely, we did not overtake those rich provinces, but we narrowed the gap-that is in the number of cars. In the twenty years, the first twenty years of Confederation our Newfoundland people spent $800 million~ $800 million to buy cars - $800 million - over three-quarters of a billion - to buy cars. In the consumJition of gasoline - now if you get ,. all these extra cars and these extra trucks you are going to use up an awful lot more gasoline.

Our increase was 776 per cent increase in the consumption of gasoline, nearly ~i.ght times,nearly eightfold of an increase and that was almost doublE the rate of the next highest Province which happened to be British Columbia. 14 ··0

April 16, 1971 Tape 293 NC - 1 MR. SMALLWOOD (J.R.): in investment, in utilities, such as electricity, telephones, telegraphs, Newfoundland's rate of increase was 750 per cent and the next highest was Bri~ish Columbia 532 per cent. Now, the development of primary industries, investments in primary industries, as fisheries, mining. forestry and so on, development increased at a faster rate in Newfoundland than in any other Province of Canada.

In Newfoundland, the increase in those years, those twenty years, the increase in investment,in natural resource development, the increase in Newfoundland was 1529 per cent, fifteenfold, fifteen times as much investment in natural resource development as twenty years earlier, 1500 per cent, in British Columbia 433, in Saskatchewan 414 and in Alberta 387.

Here is a test for you, a yard stick, a measuring rod, of how the people's income went up, how it increased, here is a measuring yard for you, Jn the first year after Confederation I now we had Confederation for about a year} 18,000 Newfoundlanders filled out income tax returns, they declared an income of $58 million for the year, 18,000 Newfoundlanders declared an income of $58 million between them and $23 million of ti-at was taxable anri they paid $4.5 million tax. Try to remember that. 18,000 Newfoundlanders who had taxable income paid taxes and the taxes they paid came to $4.5 million.

Now come down to 1967, that is the last year we had them for, the number of people who filled out their returns jumped from 18,000 to 94,000. The total income they declared jumped from $58 million to $436 million. The taxable income, the part of the income that would be taxable, jumped from $24 million to $230 million and the tax they paid jumped from $4.5 million,$46 million for the year. Now you do not pay tax on income that you do not have, the more income tax you pay the better off you are.

You would not be paying it if you were not well off, 1f you did not have the income, you would not be paying tax on your income, the more income you have, the more tax you pay, so the more tax you pay the more income you have. 14U1

April 16, 1971 Tape 293 NC - 2 MR. SMALLWOOD: Oh yes, Oh yes, our public debt is gone up, irrefutable, irrefragable, indubitable, not to be questioned, no argument, the public debt is gone up, so have the roads and all the other things. This is what we do not hear,and so have the people's income, so is our ability to service the public debt. Our economy has grown stronger, it has grown more varied and it is more robost and vigorous than it was. Now, talling about our economy, the same hon. gentleman from St. John's West deplored the fact.

If there is any doubt about what I am going to say, if the hon. gentleman challenges it, we will get Hansard and find his exact words, but I remember his words, his words were that it was too bad, it was deplorable, it was to be regretted . that most of the jobs, most of the employment was in construction.

I was startled when I heard that, because Sir, it seems to me in my simo!e way of thinking, unsophisticated, and rustic, and bovine, illiterate and uneducated, knowing nothing, a sort of walking ignoramous, I, in my simplicity, have had the feeling that it is an awfully good thing to see roads getting built and roads getting paved. It is a wonderful thing to see schools getting built and houses getting built and water and sewer systems being put in.

It is a wonderful thing to see rural electrification and improvements of all kind that have to be built, that form part of the construction industry, the more of it the better, 8ut one of the ways to tell whether a place is growing is not how many houses you repair but how many new ones you build. One of the best ways to tell whether you are going ahead or standing still is not how many roads you repair and patch but how many new miles you build and how many new miles you pave.

Surelv to God, the construction industry is one of the best measurements, one of the best yard sticks to tell the state of a land, a c~untry, a Province, a state or any other segment of society. Surely, surely, not something to be deplored, Furthermore, the more back­ ward you are at the start, the more down you are at begining, the more

April 16,· 1971 Tape 293 NC - 3 MR.

SMAI.LWOOD: handicap$ you have been living under for a long long time, then the more is the need, the greater is the need then for growth, for expansion, ·for development, for construction. 1f you look at the ten Provinces of Canada with that thought in mind, what Province of Canada would you expect to find least construction from the standpoint of the need for it, the need to nvertake long years, lost years, what would be the Province that needed it least of all, would it not be Ontario, would not British Columbia be high up in that list and what Province would be at the bottom of the list, would it not be Newfoundland.' Would not Newfoundland be precisely the Province that should, if it is growing, if it is progressing, show highest proportion of construction and employment, ' For 1968, the latest year we have D.B,S. for the whole of Canada, the percentage of the Canadian economy, represented by construction, houses, shops, hotels, office buildings, roads, paving, water and sewer systems, all kinds of construction in 1968 . for the whole Nation, our great Nation of Canada; that construction industry accounted for 16.6 per cent, not much more than one-eighth, certainly well under one-quarter, of the whole activity, economic activity of our nation, was represented by construction.

That adds, that makes sense when you begin looking at some individual Provinces. The lowest Province was.as you would expect, Ontario, 13 per cent, lower than the National average. Why? Why would that be? Because New­ foundland helped to make up the National average and other backward Provinces helped to make up the National average, so did Quebec and so did British Columbia and so on, and Ontario was below the average for the whole Nation. The whole Nation was 16-5 and Ontario was 13.S. So Ontario, as you would expect, was the lowest in Canada, 14,•3

April 16, 1971 Tape 293 NC - 4 MR. SMALLWOOD: ---- She needed it least. Now mind you,her 13.5 per. cent of her economy would be equal to about 3,000 times as much as our much higher percentage. in actual figures. 13.5 per cent of Ontario's economy, I suppose Ontario's economy would be a total of $20 billions, $20,000 million, $20 billions and 13.5 per cent of $20 billions is a lot of money. In Newfoundland, the whol~ economy, including construction, would fall far short of the 13 pe~ cent of $20 billions. Ontario was the lowest.

The highest was Newfoundland. 29.2 per cent, approximately 30 per cent, of our whole economy. Thanks be to Godl I thank God for this, that in 1968, 30 per cent of every bit of work we did, every effort we made in Newfoundland, was building, building, building, construction, creating, schools, hospitals, ~omes, roads, water and sewer systems,and all the rest and it will so continue for years to come because we have not yet overtaken the long lost years, a century or more.

We have a long way yet to go to narrow that gap still more,that separates us from Nova Scotia, that separates us from Quebec, especially that gap that separates us from Ontario, Alberta and British Colwnbia. We have a long way to go and so,for long years to come, the construction industry, I pray God, will continue to be a great part of our efforts, the efforts this Province puts forth, this efforts this Government puts forth and the efforts that the Newfoundland people and the business men and the industries of Newfoundland put forth.

God give us more Andrew Crosbies, Arthur Lundrigans, and Ken Goodyears, and all the rest of themJ God give us more of themt The builders, the men who build, who create. They make money out of it. Good, because if they do not, they have to stop doing it, Good, I hope they make lots of money out of it, because if they do not, that is the end of it, they will not go on, and others will not be encouraged to follow them.

April 16th., 1971 Tape no. 294 Page 1 Mr. Smallwood. What an argument, Mr. Speaker! What an argument! What an argument from an educated man! What an argument! A thing that should be our pride and joy; a thing that should give everyone of us deep satisfaction, at last, after those sluggish years, the dead years, the years of depression, the years of standing still, the years of slipping back, the years of never knowing when your country of Newfoundland was going to be washed down the drain.

After all those laggard years, at last, thirty per cent of everything we do, we are doing not just to stay alive, not just to shovel snow, not just to go out on the rock sheds and crack rocks with a hammer - no, sir. Thirty per cent, almost one-third of every bit of our physical energy and our mental energy, our organizing ability, our business acumen, the Government's drive, nearly one-third of it used to build up Newfoundland. Is not that what building up means? What do you mean building up Newfoundland? What do you mean? Do you mean piling money into the banks?

Building up Newfoundland means building houses and furnishing them, building schools, universities, trade schools, fisheries college , technical college. It means building roads. It means paving them. It means building water and sewerage, It means building electricity. Yes, it means creating a million horsepower in six years, the Power Commission a million horsepower. That is building! That is construction! That is the way to build the Province! There is no other way! There is no other way! Do I make myself clear, Mr. Speaker? Did you understand what I said? There is no other way to build a province, Oh!

I know, "Cape St. Mary's pays for all." There has to be someone to pay for it. But do not tell me; do not try to kid me, Kid me not with any fancy story that we are going to build Newfoundland, we are going to build all the t!tings we need by taxing the people and not borrowing. Do not tell me that because it would not be true,

April 16th., 1971 Tape no. 294 Page 2 Mr. Smallwood. Now I want to say a word in reply to the piffle, the stale wind, the smelly wind, the nonsense Charlie Bailey once, in the National Convention, called'heifer dust:' We have been hearing from the. other side about the public debt. I marvel at the fierce intensity of their determination to be clear, to help the people to understand, to clear the people's minds so that the Newfoundlanders will understand about their province and how we stand in connection with the public debt!

I am lost in admiration at the super-human efforts they make to try to make everything crystal clear, using what I like to call , "baby talk." Men's ideas but expressed in baby talk, not obfuscation. MR. CROSBIE: That is the whole speech so far. Obfuscation. MR. SMALLWOOD: He still has not got it. Cannot - there is something wrong. He cannot'. I am inclined to think• ~tr. Speaker, if a man, after having it drawn to his attention say eighty or ninety times,that he keeps on saying~ "R" Government ', ~bfuscation; · that he must have something wrong with his thinking as well. MR.

CROSBIE: What about the gasoline tax, the S.S.A tax? MR. SMALLWOOD: Ah! ah! ah! ah! ah! ,The hon. gentleman reminds me of a famous story of an election which took place in Newfoundland, in a district,many years ago, long before the days of Commission Government. Those were the days when frequently the oppositing candidates in a constituency would decide to hold one joint meeting. It would be held the night before polling day, as a rule. It would be held in the capital town of that district. It would be an interesting thing to have now,to try now, would it not?

It used to be done quite commonly and ,at that •eting - I would try to hold my own. I would try to hold my own. I would try to present my views. I would try to prevent them persuasively and convincingly. I would endeavour. I would try. You couJd not blame me.for not trying, I would try to make myself understood. MR, CROSBIE: You would not come on television with us. You will not come

April 26th., 1971 Tape no. 294 Page 3 Mr. Crosbie. on television. rou will not appear on the same progratDllle. The Premier is afraid to be on television with the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SMALLWOOD: I draw the line. I do draw the line at certain people, MR. CROSBIE: You certainly do. MR. SMALLWOOD: I do not like treachery. I do not like traitors. I must say I draw the line. I must draw the line somewhere. I do and I shall. But anyway at that meeting •• MR. CROSBIE: Tum and run. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes I run. I am afraid. I am scared. Fraidy cat. MR. CROSBIE: Right. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Fraidy cat, scarey cat, frightened, timid, shivery "A wee cowrin' mouse," That is me. MR. CROSBIE: Only wants to be on Conversation by himself. MR. SMALLWOOD: The hon. member for Hermitage, have I got it right? ,.A wee timorous creature, " That is I. It is I, the timorous creature - scared, scared! So they decided to hold this great joint meeting, and there was one of the two candidates who ~as a very good speakeT., yery fluent. The other one could not speak for orewe. He was like some people I could mention, but I wll not. But he was cute.

What he lacked in oratorial ability and command of the King's English, he made up with the cuteness - now there are some people who do not even do that. The man who was the orator, they were given a half hour each and then they were given ten minutes each to reply to each other for rebuttal. The orator held forth. He was the government candidate,on the government's side, running for re-election. The other fellow was the candidate for the Opposition. So, the orator for the government's side held forth for a half hour,with a magnificent speech, glorious,

April 26th., 1971 Tape no. 294 Page 4 Mr. Smallwood full af irrelevancies, nonsecular - it had nothing to do with anything. But it sounded good. One of the fellows afterwards,from the audience . met another citizen who had not been there. He said; "What a meeting: What a meeting! You should have been there." He said, "What a speech! (Naming the government candidate) '' You never heard anything like it." "Yeah, I am sorry, I was not there. What did he talk about?" "He did not say. He did not mention what it was he was talking about, but it was a great speech. " Yes, I am just like that.

I never let anyone know what it is I am talking about. I try to obfuscate it. Yes, I agree, whatever that may mean, I agree. I could not agree more, but be careful, be careful or the hon. gentleman might lose his latest convert. So he made this eloquent speech and sat down and there was a thunder of applause. Then the Chairman called on the other candidate. He got up and said: (stumbling and stuttering and, you know, the words dragging out of him, with ox chains from the four corners of the earth, each word was dragged in slowly, painfully, He said, "Mr.

Chairman, just as he said, I am not much of a speaker, like him., But, you know, it is_ not all just talk" I would say, before he goes any further and before I go any further,! would like him to tell this people here, ,i r naming the town 7 the capital} ''to tell the people here about that $40,000." He sat down. It was a bombshell! It was a bombshell - that $40,000? Everybody all over - t heir heads together - there was a hubbub of conversation all over the hall. Oh! $40,000, my God! Now $40,000 then 11buld be like $750,000 now. That would be the equivalent. "What about that $40,000?" He got up to rave about it.

He did not know anything about any $40,000. There was not any $40,000. It was just in this cute politican's mind and on his tongue. hon. gentleman is talking about." He said, "I do not know what the he said; "come on, what about it?" After this went on for a few minutes, the audience began to shout. "Yeah, what about it? What about that $40,000? Tell us about the $40,000. 1L1. i _; 3: ... . ,

April 16th,, 1971 · Tape no, 294 Page 5 Mr. Small wood. Who got it?'· They felt that he had got it. It had gone in his pocket somehow or another. He made away with $40,000. I have seen that stunt done here in this House, across the way, but we have a little better audience now. The public debt '. -$ l billion, a thousand million - $1 billion, over $1 billion. Well $1 billion and a few paltry millions, $50 million ... I think - 'a billion and fifty million.' ' It is some large sum of money - $1 billion, a thousand million. Mr. Speaker, our debt on the 28th. day of February - no.

Our debt now, because since the 28th February, 1971, there has been a $20 million issue in London; a $25 million issue in New· York; and a $2 million issue by the Canada Pension Fund, for a total of $47 million. I have these penciled in here on the sheet. This Province's debt,today, this day (What date is this), the 16th April, Friday, at 12:35 - our public debt at this morn~nt is $482 million. That is our debt. That is our own, the Newfoundland Government's o~'ll net direct debt. MR. CROSBIE: Direct. MR. SMALLWOOD: Incorrect? MR. CROSBIE: No, direct I said. MR. SMALLWOOD: Correct, yes.

It is far short of $1 billion. MR. CROSBIE: Direct. MR. S~LWOOD: That is the Newfoundland Government's public debt. That is what the Government of Newfoundland has its name on, its bonds, its borrowings,as of this moment - $482,600,000. So it is nearer $483 million. Now we have certain Crown corporations that we own, and they are us. They are our alter~egos • They .are the Newfoundland Government in another name - Crown corporations - Newfoundland Government Corporations, Crown, owned by the Queen, in right of Newfoundland. Call it $62 million. Now that is

April 16th,, 1971 Tape no. 294 Page 6 Mr. Sma~lwood: all. That is the lot. That is what the Newfoundland Government owe. That is every last cent of what the Newfoundland Government owe. That is what the Newfoundland Government owe, directly and through its own Crown corporations. MR. CROSBIE: Not at all. It is ridiculous, MR. SMALLWOOD: Not at all~ Not at all! Now, Sir, there are other people who owe $307,400,000 - other people altogether: Companies, private companies, private corporations, churches, school boards, mining companies, towns, municipalities, for a total of $307.5 million.

Put that altogether and it is $851.7 million. It is $851,700 1 000, Round it out and call it $852 million - $852 million. MR. HICKMAN: That $307 million has the Government guaranteed? MR. SMALLWOOD: The hon. gentleman - do not - the hon. gentleman. I will not even try to obfuscate it. MR, HICKMAN: I am only asking. lam only asking. MR, SMALLWOOD: I will answer before being asked. This is not going to be wheedled out of me. It is not going to be bullied out of me, It does not need to be, because I am eager to tell about it, MR HICKMAN: Yes, I am sure. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Very eager to tell about it, Mr, Speaker, if you put these two amounts together, what the Newfoundland Government, as a Government,owe and what the Newfoundland Government's own bodies, the Crown corporations owe - these two amounts together make up one amount. If you add on to that what others owe, it comes to a total of $851 million or $851,700,000. Rounded out it is

.6pril lbth. 1971 Tape 295 PK - 1 HR. ~~ALUiClOD: about $852 million. - --- · .. - --- Now take that S852 million - do we owe that? For us to owe that, for us to m.•e $307 million that others own. we do not, but others do, the other~owe it, the others borrow it, to~'Ils, municipalities, corporation5, ancl so on. So they borrowed the money. They owe it. It is in their naTI1e. They owe 1t. They borrowed it. They p,ot it. They had it. We did not. They din. It is their money, They horrowed it.

Now if you were to f!dd that mon1.>y that they owe to the l!loney that we owe, it is a total of C:852 million. ~ow, Sir, why should, 'O•hen vou are tryin~ honestly to ascertflin the Puhlic Debt of our Province - why should you exce~t, 1-rhen vou are talking to a bond house, excent when you are talking to a security commission, such /'IS the ~Er., and I will describe that in a minute, T will deal with that in ;i mement, except on that occasion, when you are taH:ing about the PubU.c Debt of a orovince, whv do you ac!d on what others owe? lfthat is to form nart of our T'uhlic Debt here is what has to hanpen, and this must har,pen.

They must all default. And, if thev default, we guaranteed that it will be naid. Then it becomes our debt, if they default. For us to owe $8.52 million, a lot of people who owe ~3n7 rn:IJ 1 ion must all fa:1.1, a .11. Fveryone of them, not just one or two, all must default. lee must be called upon to pay all of that debt. Then :lt 1s truly our debt. Then truly you would add :l.t on to our o-i.m dent.

And then truly it would make a total of S852 mi Ilion, if those people who owe it all defaulted.If we had to pay it, rhen it would truly he our debt, But then, Si.r, nC't only would they have tCl defau.lt but their property would have to he valueless, it ~muld have to have no salva~ai Le value. All the fish plants that owe money on our f!uarantee. ')hey owe it remember. They owe :It) ·the mininp. companies that owe money. they borrowed i.t and owe it, but we guaranteed it. And all the other bodies that owe !;;307 million, if they all fail, all of them, then we ,,muld owe :f_t. Tf they failed!

But when we ,-muld owe it, ,-·e uould have all the s;1..i.vai;ahle value of it, sol'le of which would be worth, some of which would be very valuable, very valuable 14:!. 1

Anril 16th. 1971 Tape 295 PT{ - 2 MR . SM.ALLHOOD: indeed. So to say to the Newfoundland people that the Public Debt, your Public Debt, my good ~eat Newfoundland friends, and fellow Newfoundlanders, your debt that the Government have contracted in your name, the debt that your Government have oiled up for you and on you and on your children and your grandchildren for ~enerations to come, the debt that your Government have piled up on you is $852 million; for them to say that is a lie.

Now a lie is something that is meant to deceive,it :l.s wronj?, it is not true and the person who tells it knmJs it is not true and he tells it for the purpose of deceiving. So, perhaps, it is not a liP- in that sense. Perhaps, it is a lie only in the sense that a man who utters it is just a poor ignoramus. HR. CROSBIE: It is a hundred percent true. Why does the prospectus of the C-.overnmen t show this. 1-IR .• SMALLWOOD: ---- T. said, I would deal with that. MR. CROSBIE, Yes, ah, well the Premier - ~IR. SMAJ .I.WOOD: I said, I would deal with that. ~IR. CROSBIF. · Sure he said. ~1R.

SMALLWOOD: Yes, and I will, and I am well able to. Well able to: All the brains are not in the one branch of the Crosbie's. I will admit that there is a branch of the Crosbie's brainy, able, clever, constructive, creative, gambling, buildinf!. But there is another branch.they are just a skinful of frustration and jealousy and hatred, whose m:f.nds become twisted and distorted, out of shape, full of hate - ~IF. CROSBIE: What a pile of bushwah. Simple-minded bushwah. ~•R. SHALLWOOD: Yes, I am simple-minded. MR. CROSBIE: Corroded. Corroded. HR.

SMALLWOOD: Sir, is it not fair to say to the Newfoundland people; ''look, your Government have run up a debt of $544 million. Your:Gov.ernment have run up a debt of $544 mil_lion and in addition to that others have run up a debt between them of $307 million. but you must know about that dear 1412

Anr11 Jnth, 1971 Tape 295 PK - 3 1·ff/. SMALLWOOD: Newfoundlanders. You should be told ah out that because not only does the r-overnment itself owe S544 million, but others owe another $307 million, and if they do not pay it. then the Government will owe the <;307 million/Hut for the Government to owe the $307 million they 11,ust al 1 fail. All the churches that owe the money, and all the school hoards that owe the money, and all the town councils that owP the money,and all the corporations that owe it, they must all fail, ._11 of them.

It is not enough for one or two to fail, they roust all fail tne whole lot, if you ~-re poinp to tack th2t ,, 307 n,1 U i mi ,~.., t o ~he Cc,vernment 's debt. Thev must all fail and not onlv must they fail, but they must vanish , their property must vanish. Tt must vanish into thin air, where the ship must go with no insurance on it1 where there was a plant, it has pot to disappear, where there was a tov•n, it has rot to disappear, where there was a water and sewer system, jt must c;,o.

F.verythiur. must di.sappear and then and no insurance, and then the r.overnment w11 l owe that S307 m11 lion. i·,ow that is square talk.

That is honest talk. ''Your Covernment have run ur a debt after ;ill these roads and schools and hospitals and the rest of it, they hHve run up a deht of $544 mi 11 ion and others have run up a debt of $300 million, and if they do not pay it. your C:overnment will have to pay it.'· ,\nd then your startled puhlic savs, 'ves, yes, you mean that the Government will have to pay that ~300 million in addition to what they borrowed thernselves,in addition to what thev owe that they will have tc, nay . what other peonle m~e? 1· Yes, And they will scratch their heads and say; •funny, that is strange. \lhy the Covernrnent dici not borrow i. t.

Tmms borrowed it, companies borrowecl it, school boards harrowed it, mininp companies horrowed it. whv s'iould the Government pay it? Oh, they w111 not have to pay it unless those neop1e ro broke or unlesi:: they fail.' ' ;•oh: oh! that would he had "to1ould it not? Rut, look,old man, are thev all '10inp to fail? Just have a look at the town councils. Who are thev? ¼!ho are they? Let us h;we a list of them.' ' Thev send over the list, "Miy God,,,,ani \lou do not think thev are all goinJ! to fail do you? What are these companies?' ' And you will look at the list of companies and the fish 14::3 I ,

April 16th. 1971 Tape 295 ?K - 4 M~ .• SMALL'·'OOD: plants and the drap,:?ers and the mines. "You say. did ,rou ,1 say? Now he bepins to smarten up; "did you say, Mr. Torv. did you sav, 1rr. TTT,it11.tion Lit--eral, did you sl'ly that the Government, thRt aJ l these must fail •i for the Covernmen t to have to nay'l Yes, that is what I said.'' P.ut, you did not !'lake that very nlain to the Tories. Hhat you just did •·ras just 1 tlll'P i r all together. as one bi~ llDl!P and eaid that that was the de1't.' Oh, no. the Tories say , no, you are ,,,ronp;.

What I did was this, 1 said, the Newfoundland ~ove mmen t ~: indirect debt is ~800 million. The Government's i.ndirect debt is SllOO !l'i 1J i.on. $1 hil.lion f1 tt y !!'·U lrnr- 1 Now that 1.s ~ lie. re r-,ay not he intended to deceive, but it deceives. It deceives. The hon, gentleman has not ~ot the brains to follow what I am sayinp,, I know that. ~ ~- CROSBIE: Inaudible. - - ----- t1?_:_ 5.!_fALLJ·J~()D: I understand that. He does not need to tell you, but do not draw attention to it. MR. l'-'UPPHY· Inaudible. "'ffi. 51'fALLW0(1D• He should not draw attention to it. He should not draw attention to it.

The hon. gentleman over there understands me. MR. CROSBP'. : Several things you have not added in yet. MR. Rf/\ LLPOOD• I know all ahout it. ~rR. CROSBIE: Do not forget the prospectus. HR . 5~fALLWOOD; I know all about it . I ought to,l am Premier. F.ve ryonE> of these transactions comes before the Cabinet and every minister here knows all /'\bout it, and I arn a minister toe MR. CROSBIE: Inaudible. 1'-IR. SMALLWOOD: I will do that too. I will do that. T will do that after ltmch. ""R. ~ARSHALL: The only green hack left :f.n the Government is on the T'remier's back now.

APril 16th. 1971 Tape 295 !•m. S?IAT,LWOOD: It is not p.reen, this is red. MR. CRO~BIF.~ His shirt is green. PK - 5 ',I.R. SM.ALUmOD: The shirt is red;I The shirt i~ green. The coat is red. The !'ants are somethinl?;, I do not know. By the way, there 1.s only time left before lunch to tell the P.ouse about this suit. It is in replv to somethin p, they have been sayinp.:, but t have forl!otten what it wai:;, it is rebut al. Tt is rehutal.

On the way back from Toyko there in December my colleagues the '-'ini.ster of Fealth, the Minii:;ter of Economic Development, and I stopped ('IVer at Bangkok, a lon~. lonp.: trip from Toyko to St. John ' s and in fact y ou leave one day and you fly rip;ht cl~an around the world,and there are still 1'ack the srune time you left, That i.s because of the· International t:lme chanre. So it is hetter to rreak the trip. we broke i.t at Ranp.kok and went in and T l>ouflht a niece of handmade,.Thai.land silk. Al.l the reople over tl-ere keer, worris , silkwo~s.

Thev ate a] l turn lTIQ out ldl lions of miles of silk .,spun from i;ilkworms, not rayon, and then thev have millions of looT11s and ,,,very house i.s makiTl?., so everywhere you go, in every shop tn the hotel everywhere,vou walk over it, you trip over it, all you can see is not the ,-!orms, all you can see is the cloth, silk. NP. CRO~Blr.'. Tnau<lihle . ''P .• S~fALU;OOJ) · '·'nshrooMs feed the silkworms. 1'N BON . "''E'IBE'P-• Jnaudihle. - - --- -· !<!R. S~f:\LJJ-1000: T do not know. tt would be food if we could pet them - - --- - - top;ether.

Ilowever, T bought this piece. you p.et a i.ort of madness , when vou see all that silk there. You know, what are you r,oinp. to do with it, if you do huy it? The first time I was there I hought some and broup.ht it home to my wife and she p,ot a lady to make a suit,for herself, and then never wore it. You know that is a waste of money. And theT1 I had an uneasy feelinp; that I was wastinp. money to buy this bit of silk. Rut, however. I asked Mr. Rowe. the chief cutter and tailor of United Cotten 1-!ills ,who made me a suit a couple of years ago, phone him and asked him, if he would drop down to the office.

And he did, and I handed him this piece of cloth, silk. 14::5

April Hth. 1971 Tape 295 PK - 6 MR. S~'ALLWOOD · I said·, would you make me a coat out of that? And T had something in my_mind, like a smokinr jacket, not that I "1>Yould wear a smokinp jacket, but you know, you do have a smoking jacket. Jt is njce to have one in the House, even if you never - unless a Torv came in and you put on the dog. and then vou would put on your s1nokinp, jacket to try to impress him. So, he said, all right - 1'-IF. CROSBIE: r1r. Shaheen or Pr. Doyle. NR. SMALLWOOD: Both. So I will make it, and he rneasured me and he made this coat for me.

When he came do,;m yesterday at half-past. two, yesterday afternoon ... with the coat 7 for me to try it on,he broup.:ht do,;m this pair of pants, which he made as well. Now they do beautiful work at l'nited Cottfm '1ills. I think it is the great tail.orinp establishment of Newfoundland. There is the place you can go and get measured for a suit and get a perfect fit at a reasonable price. I am not getting any commission or anythinp, hut it is a wonder place to p.:et a suit made. So I put on the pants and the coat and I fell in love with both of them.

The shirt I already had on, I bought the shirt when I was in the South,in the United States,the other day. A beautiful shirt and it does not show the dirt. You know, you do not have to pet it washed so often, and I had on this shirt and I r,ut on this ancl I said, my God what will Crosbi.e say? .. So I said, •:r will weat it up to the House and I came up here and the first Leader, r am only S!'eaking in chronological order now, the first Leader, of the Tories, A.>J FON. !-lE1.IBER: Inaudible. MR.

SMALLWOOD: And do you not forget it, you know, blinked, blinked, and the other Leader ,in chronological order, the second Tory Leader ,.frorr. St. John's i,iest, turned scarlet. He blinked. he turned white. you know because he had me put down for a fellow who had one ler in the j!rave and on the other one was standing on a bannana peel, }1e thought• and here walks in this youn~ster, walked in this trim atheltic lookinp.: young man, and it killed him. He has not had a wink of sleep ever since. '.- 0 1R.. MURPHY: You cannot judge a book by its cover. 14~6

Anril 16th. 1971 Tape 295 l'K - 7 :-rn. ;' lmC: RTR• Thad two niphtmares. !-IP. St-ll\LLHOOD • The hon. gentleman will have more than two nir.htmares yet. -- ------ 1 will p,ive him manv a niP.htmare yet. AN HON. "fD'BF.F, Inaudible. i·1el1 that i.s devastatin?-: and I wHl he ryoli.te .-md lauph, flaw, haw. haw • . ~·~~(:H0_:5_B_!,E_:. 1-!e think the Premier looks good in that. MR. St-!ALLWOOD: I will try and oblipE> - ,~ow 1 do not intend to bave a T11arathoo speech. MR. CROSBir: Oh, oh! "P. SMALLW00J)• I kno"' I must disappoint the l!ouse. T r:now. hut there you are.twill not, I refuse. No. I wjll not.

I will take up ten or fifteen minutes, r,,aybe tl>•enty. you know how it is when vou get poinp., you intend to tie ten or fifteen minutes. The· hon. the memher f<'T. Bonavi.sta ~outh knows th.at, he knows what it i.s like. You get up intendec1 to i;peak for eirht or ten minutes and you end uo three or fonr hours later. "R. RAPJ\OllR · InattdihlP.. --· -- ~--- . ''n. ROBFRTS · Inaudi.h le. 'TTL S'lALl}·!flOD • A thousand ages in thy si.ght. but ;m everdnp.: i>one. and T ~-Till not Pven he half a thous1tnd as:.,es. ur.

Speaker, I want to finish mv discussion of tlie Purlic Deht, trvinp to throw a little honest daylipht on the facts, anrl Perhaps, "our Ponour will he ~•illine to call it one o'clock. l1R. FOP.EP,T~: 'fr. Speaker, ;u!'lt before we le;1.ve could J make a very l-rief comment, Phi ch T think r,•ould be of interest to the Honse. MR. SrfALJ.WOOD: Not on the debate. M~. P.OBERT~~ No . no. ''R. S1--IALLWOnn~ Ah, well, roay l move the adjournment of the deh.at~, Mr. Speaker, and Your Honour does not have to leave the Chair instantly. But the hon. Minister could then make hi.s statement.

I move the adjournment of the debate. 14:!.7

Aprtl 16th. 1971 Tane 29S ny - 8 '-IF. ROBBR'.!' ~ • !3y le;ive. I meritioned yesterday, I think. in answerin~ the ouestion that a gentleman was very l'rndly injured in ~•arv's Harl--our. The gent] eman in question did not lose 1, oth of hi_s anns 7 T thougf-tt the P.ouse would like to know. lie <l:!d lose one arrn. They Pot him in to St. Anthony hy one of the f;overnment heliconters at F:ix o' clocl· J a-:t niPht and T 1ust had a note that savs that the rentlel"'an, his name is ~'.r. l'i.lfrecl Pve, he lost a considerable anount of lilood 1'ecanse of the delay involved in etett:lnrr him across the straits.

Pe has Jost his arrn anrl hf!s several muscles in his arm severed in addition to the 11mputarion, )ust helow the Plhow,anparentlv. P.ut nr. Thoi½as tells me that '-Ir, -Pve,as of a fe,,• 'f11inutes ago,is in pood con<litlon, ;:ind, thought the House might t,rant to k!'low. HR. J OHN NOLi\N : '!r. f:peal~er ,: wond<::r if I could make an announcement which 1 thinl· . '-'ould he of so'l!'e interest to the House concerninp an aircraft instance yesterday that I have> had quj_te a numbf"T" of innuiries about. It is quite short.

Actuallv ~-•hat harmened,~ ••i th vour permission, was that an afrcr.'lft amhulancP flie:ht inadP a 1-'lndinp on the strai~ht stretch to the nurin r ,,minsula F.ip.:hwav. l>t about 4 · '.VI yesterday Rfternoon, the aircraft departed from Frenchman's Cove . R Turbo Beaver find about twenty minutes l'lfter take off, with the stretcher natient and thP nurse on hoard des tin.Pd fcl' ~t.

John's,the ni.lot e:ot an indication of low oil nressure Rt that time. and it was decided to make a landinP- on the hi~hway and thev dic1 this without incident and, after ri1.nor adjustments to the oil pressure wP-rninf' indicating system were made, the aircraft took off and continued to St, John's Pithout further incident, and they all arrived safely and well. I 111ip.ht say that the take off was made possible hy quite a number of motorists in the area at the time, who assisted the pilot.

I would l :f.ke to express l11Y sincere a~preciation to the motorists concerned for their help and assistance to th~ n:llot and wakine: it possihle for the aircraft to take off and to brin~ the patient into ~t. John's safely and 1 hope well. Thank you, 'fr. Sneaker. "':P. SPFAY-.F.R: (NOEL): It is now one o'clock I do leave the Chair until three o · clocJ r . 14!d

Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY .. , ·:,-.; ·, L..' Number 21 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, APRIL 16, 1971 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

April 16th, 1971 The House resumed at 3:00 P,M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order! Tape 296 JM - 1 HON. J;R •. SMALLWOOD(PREMIER}: Mr. Speaker, we have the great honour of being visited in our Chamber this afternoon by one of the most distinguished of Canadian statesmen in the person of the Premier of the great neighbouring Province of Nova Scotia. The hon. Gerald Regan, the Premier of Nova Scotia, has in short order become one of the most prominent of all the public men of our Canadian nation.

He is in Newfoundland to have discussions with some of my colleagues and me on the subject of oil and gas and other mineral rights lying off our shore because these rights concern not only this Province but his Province as well and still other Provinces and Jn dealing with the Government of our nation .we have thought it prudent and wise to have a common approach and a common policy lll·e have had talks and discussions in Ottawa and elsewhere but now we have been having them today here in St. John's and we will have them again tonight. Mr.

Regan,besides being the Premier of Nova Scotia,is, in a sense, himself a Newfoundlander. Now he did not have the great good fortune to be born in Newfoundland but he did the next best thing that you can do if you are not born in this Province,at least you can choose one or both of your parents and he did that.

He chose a Newfoundland lady to be his mother She came from the Southern Shore of the great Ferryland district,and he had the great good luck to be a nephew of three rather famous Newfoundlanders, one of whom I fear lost his life in the first war, Walter and the other two were Gus and Gregory Green, Walter ,Green, Gus Green and Gregory Green. The hon. gentleman on the other side of the House will be happy to know that one of Premier Regan's uncles,namely Gregory Green,on the Southern Shore was a very, very prominent, energetic and indeed aggressive Tory.

On the other hand,to balance the matter out.the other uncle, Gus, was an even more aggressive and certainly more militant Liberal. I must say that Gus Green,who was a great personal friend of mine.was an ardent confederate. He fought by my side in the great battle, the greatest of all wars ever fought

April 16th, 1971 Tape 296 JM - 2 . MR. SMALLWOOD: on ~his island, the war for Confederation,and I think he was Qur first Liberal candidate in the district of Ferryland. Ferryland at that time was not quite ready for a Liberal candidate and so Gus Green went down to defeat,bu~ he was a pioneer. He laid the foundation, he did the fundamental work,with the result that that district turned liberal and has been liberal from that day to this.

However,Premier Regan inherits from his Tory uncle, Greg Green, a certain amount of sentiment and good will which I know will be shown him from the other side today and from his other uncle Gus Green an equally great liberal tradition. The Premier is going up tomorrow to the Southern Shore to visit his ancestoral home or the ancestoral home of his mother, and I am sure that the people up there will be warmly glad that he goes.

Your Honour,! know that the Leader of the Opposition if he were present would join with me and., in his absence? his colleagues, I am sure, will join with me in an expression of the hope that Your Honour will be pleased to invite the Premier of the great Province of Nova Scotia into the Chamber and offer to him the opportunity to address us. MR. T.A. HICKMA.~: Mr. Speaker, in the place of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition,we on this side of the House would very much like to hear Premier Regan of Nova Scotia address this House.

We have been following his political career with a great deal of interest,particularily in the last year or so. He has brought to Nova Scotian politics a youth and vigor that in these days we find to be the yardstick for success. He has had his problems , obviously,since assuming office but it is equally clear that he is discharging these responsibilites very fairly and most efficient!~ It is very heartening to see at long last a unity of effort and a unity of spirit on the part of the various Premiers of the Atlantic Provinces.

Not only do we hope that they will be unified in their desire and in their fierce determination to protect the interests of the Atlantic Provinces insofar as royalities and other benefits are concerned that may accrue and that should accrue and that must accrue if we have the good fortune to find oil off our shores, but it is equally important and I avail of this opportunity to implore, to try and 1420

April 16th, 1971 MR. HICKMAN: Tape 296 ·JM - 3 convince the hon: Premiers who are here today and others that it is equally and I believe more important that we have the same fierce nonpartisan determination to protect the waters off our shore and to preserve these waters for Canadian fishermen,which in effect means fishermen of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland. We are very pleased to have Premier Regan with us. He was a distinguished broadcaster and lawyer before he entered the political field.

Many of his classmates are practising in the Province of Newfoundland now, and I know they are very happy that he has had the time to come and visit and work with us. We most assuredly join with the hon. the Premier in inviting Premier Regan to address this House. MR. J.C. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I would also like to join in to~ welcome Premier Regan. It is good to see the Atlantic Provinces getting younger and more energetic leaders.

It was welcome news when he won his election last year and it is good for every Province to have a change of Government. whether it changes from Conservative to Liberal or Liberal to Conservative.

I notice that there ,is now a great,precedent set in three of the Atlantic Provinces, three of the four Provinces have Premiers who are graduates of Dalhousie Law School it is Nova Scotia - Premier Regan; Prince Edward Island - Premier Alex Campbell and New Brunswick - Premier Hatfield,who was a classmate of mine, we can only hope that in the not too distant future there will also be a Dalhousie Law School graduate Premier of this Province.

However,our Premier does not seem willing to concede that it should be unanimous in the Atlantic Provinces ,that there be four Dalhousie Law School graduates as Premier,so we will have to leave that to the electorate. I c~rtainly endorse what the Premier and the member for Burin has said. I hope that this meeting of our Premier and Premier Regan will perhaps mean that in the future our own Premier will attend meetings of the four Atlantic Premiers,which has not been done now for some time, our Premier has not been attending with the other three Maritime Premiers in their yearly or even half-yearly sessions.

But I think myself that this should be done and that a united front is excellent on the things that are of interest to us all. 1421

April 16th, 1971 Tape 296 MR • ..CROSBIE: I notice that Premier Regan is attending the-Liberal Ball tonight anrl if there are any unfortunate incidents there I am sure he will be able to plead inevitable accident as a defence,if there are any such incidents. It is probably the first one he has attended here in Newfoundland,but they are usually very well attended and very salubrious. I think the hon.

Minister of Economic Development is in charge of this years and I do not doubt that it will meet the great performances of the past and that Premier Regan and Premier Smallwood ,when they lead of the dance,will both show a pretty pair of heels. MR. SPEAKER: I take it that it is the unanimous wish of the House that I invite Premier Regan to take a place on the floor of the House and I would ask the Sergeant-at-Arms if he would be good enough to escort Premier Regan to the seat here HON. GERALD REGAN(PREMIER OF NOVA SCOTIA): Mr.

Speaker, members of the Legislative Assembly of the great Province of Newfoundland, it is for me a signal privilege and a great honour to have the opportunity to bring to the members of the House.through you, Mr. Speaker, the greetings of the Government of Nova Scotia and the people of your sister Province of Nova Scotia.

I must say that in view of the high esteem in which I have long held not only this Province but in particular this House,it is a moving experience to have the privilege of standing on the floor of the Chamber and to see so many of those various political affiliations whose wit and ability in debate and in Government and in Opposition are well-known to us in the Province of Nova Scotia. Our Provinces, of course, are interwoven in tradition, in our history and indeed in our people.

Those who have originated in the Province of Newfoundland and in other cases those who have one parent,like myself,hailing from this great Province have played very considerable roles in the develop­ ment of Nova Scotia. At the present time the Chiet Justice;of the trial division of the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia, the hon. Gordon Cowan,is, of course, a distinguished native of this Province, a graduate of the Dalhousie Law School who chose to remain in Nova Scotia in the practice of law before 1LE''.) :.: ........

April 16th, 1971 Tape 296 JM - 5 MR. REGAN: becoming a jurist of distinction and perhaps going forth,as so many Newfound­ landers have,with missionary spirit to help in the improvement of other parts of this great nation. It might be noted by the hon. Deputy Leader of the Opposition that we have as Mayor of the Clty of Darthmouth, Mr. Roland Thornhill,who recently made a very good run at the leadership of the Conservative Party in Nbva Scotia. While he did not succeed,he certainly made a very impressive showing and has a distinguished record as mayor of our second largest city Mr.

Thornhill also, of course, is a native of the Province of Newfoundland. Many other distinguished Nova Scotians have the same background. We are in the position that we have common interests and common bonds, common I industries and indeed in many cases investments by the •aae people and the same companies in the economy of our two Provinces. I want, through you Mr. Speaker, to extend to the hon. the Premier and to Mr. Hickman and Mr. Crosbie,(! may break the rules,in naming names on the floor of the House,as a strangerJ my warm thanks and gratitude for their kind words of weleome here today.

I share the sentiments that have been expressed with reference to the importance of the co-operation of these two great Provinces in the months and years ahead,as we strive to improve the economic conditions of the people in both Provinces~so that we might take a more proper role and play a more full

part in the prosperity of Canada,to which we are justly entitled. I am confident that for the Eastern portion of our nation the opportun~ties exist in the future that did not in the past.if we move now wisely and thoroughly to prepare ourselves to take advantage of those opportunities. Words have been said today in relation to the contingent benefits thatmay flow in very bountiful fashion from the development of our offshore mineral resources and particularily with reference to oil. 1423

April 16, 1971, Tape 297, Page 1 -- apb MR. REGAN: ------ No one/of course, can know the time or the exact location at which oil will be found on the contenintal shelf of our Province. But on the basis of the most expert opinions, I think that we all can look forward with great confidence to that occurring in the next very few years. Part of the reason I was eager to accept the invitation of your Premier,Mr.

Speaker, to discuss a mutual approach, not only to the ownership of these resources, subject to the way we may prepare for them to be developed in the interest of all the people~ it is because I think that history has shown us that there are countries where substantial oil reserves have been found and exploited with very small advantage for the local people. There have been other jurisdictions which have thrived to a tremendous degree because of the proper balanced · development~auxiliary services and auxiliary benefjts,in the industries that service the oil industry itself.

I think that~as Eastern Canadians, we must be prepared to see to it that local entrepreneurship,with Government assistance,can take advantage of the servicing of the various facets of the oil industry, and indeed today of the exploration industry.

To have the bottoms or the ships that will be needed in such numbers to service the production platform.built in Canada, in both of our.Provinces, to see that the provisioning takes place from here and not from the United States or elsewhere, and that as much as possible of the oil dollar can be left here in our region, while,at the same time,recognizing that if we are to have the massive investment in exploration and production by large ~11 7 companies that we must allow them a reasonable profit in relation to ' the risk in investment which they have made. I look forward,Mr.

Speaker, to the opportunity-during my time in public life, of collaborating closely with all those who are in the public life of the Province of Newfoundland, and I am sure that the benefits that will accrue to both of our areas will be greater through the closest type of cooperation. Reference has been made,Mr. Speaker, to the fact that the maternal side of my family, that my ancestors resided in this Province and I think contributed in some way to the life of Newfoundland. My grandfather~Thomas Green, was Chief of Police on Bell Island during the turbulent years at the turn of the 1424

April 16, 1971, Tape 297, Page 2 -- apb century, when I think that that particular post was a very trying one. I note that the hon. Mr. Neary smiles, perhaps with some appreciation of some of the incidents that were involved in those days.

I want only,Sir, to say,through you, that the words that were expressed by the late Winston Churchill,when he addressed the American Congress I find very fitting,in my own small and I hope humble way, to the situation that I find myself in today in addressing the Newfoundland Legislature, because t grew up in circumstances where I knew,from the time that I was three years old, the sigi\ificance of the expression "Blue Puttees.

" I grew up knowing just as much about bakeapples as I did about Nova Scotian type products, l grew up knowing exactly the spot where the goat spoke in Mobile, on the southern shore, and of the circumstance that led the farmer to believe he had said; •·are you diggin 'em, Dillon?" And many, many of the other fine stories and history of this Province. In my early youth I read many of the writings of your distinguished Premier,with admiration, and watched the battle for Confederation. So I say,Sir, that it is a very moving experience for me.

I think perhaps partly because my mother was a dominant influence in interesting me,in the earliest days of my youth . in public life. That is perhaps part of the Newfoundland heritage, where everyone is surely interested in politics, and deeply involved in one way or the other.

So, if I might just read the words of the late Sir Winston Churchill, on December 26th. 1941, when he addressed the American Congress, words that I think express my feelings here today; "I wish indeed that my mother,whose memory I cherish across the vale of years, could have been hear to see.•' By the way, I cannot help reflecting that if my father had been (and I substitute the word Newfoundlander, instead of American) a Newfoundlander and my mother Nova Scotian instead of the other way around, I might have gotten here on my own." In that case, this would not have been the first time you would have heard my voice.

In that case, I should not have needed an invitation, but if I had, it is hardly likely that it would have been unanimous. I do feel that those words of Churchill's, with relation to his common British and American ancestry,apply in some small way in my case, having been the product of a

April 16, 1971, Tape 297, Page 3 -- apb Newfoundland mother and a Nova Scotian father. I ask the pardon of the hon. members 1 Mr. Speaker, for having intruded on the time of the House to such a degree, and I again say that it is a great privilege to have the opportunity to address a group of Newfoundland citizens of such distinction, of all parties, and all of whom I have admired greatly for many years. Thank youl MR.

SPEAKER: May I, on behalf of all the members of the House, Premier Regan, express to you our very sincere thanks for your taking time out to come in and give us such a delightful address this afternoon. fhe adjourned debate on the Address in Reply. Mr. Speaker, before we recessed for lunch, I was talking about our public debt, and I was analy~ing it, and I was deviding it chiefly into the two broad headings under which it falls.

One being the actual debt of the Province itself, the Government,which falls into two classes, (1) what the Government by name went out and borrowed, and what some of the Government's agencies, the Crown Corporations,went out and borrowed in their name for the Province. The two put together, running to a total of $544 million at the present moment.

The other heading,being money that had been borrowed by other people, wl\o had gone out on the market and borrowed it in their own names, and who have to pay the interest on it in their own names, and who have to pay back the principal when it falls due and do it in their own names, an amount of $307 million. These two separate debts, one a debt of $544 million that is owed by the Government of this Province and the other a debt of $307 million owed by a number of people,but payable by the Government if they fail to pay it and not otherwise. All this I was saying before we recessed for lunch.

Now I would like to give the House some idea of who those others are. If the Leader of the Opposition goes down to the bank tomorrow to borrow some money, and the manager of the bank says, "well, I will lend you the money but suppose you cannot pay it, Suppose when it falls due you are not able to pay it. I 14~6

April 16, 1971. Tape 297. Page 4 -- apb cannot take the risk. I am sorry I cannot lend you this money but, if you can get the Premier or someone to endorse a note saying that if you cannot pay it h~ will. we will lend you the money." That is exactly what happened with a number of Town Councils around the Province, with a number of School Boards around the Province, with a nUD1ber of private corpQrations around the Province, industri41 plants, fishing plants, mines, a number of hotels and mote}s around the Province. They went to the banks to borrow money.

The banks said, "we will lend you the money provided the Government will guarantee that if you do not pay it back they will.'' Now Sir, by what kind of reason,when you talk to the Newfoundland people about the debt, the public debt of the Province. by what kind of reason do you include the debts of the towns, the corporations, the school boards and others, who have gone and borrowed the money, who received the money, and who spent the money, who owe the money, who pay the interest on the loans and who have to pay back the loans, by what kind of reasoning do you add that up and say, "that is part of the Province's public debt?" You can do it of course if you have a political 1110tivation.

If you are in the Opposition and you are trying to paint the Government as a crowd of fools, a crowd of incompetents, a crowd of scatter-brained fools who do not know what they are doing, who do not know how to manage the Province's affairs, if that is your motive you can say to the people of Newfoundland, "look, the public debt of Newfoundland, of the Government of Newfoundland, the Province's public debt is $852 million, $852 million." Then you can exclaim about it, you can say; · "that is so much .thead that every man, every woman and every child in the Province is burde~ed down with,this awful load of debt that the spendthrift Government, the incompetent Government, the poor managers of Newfoundland have piled up.

Not only that, but children that are not born yet are burdened down by that same awful debt.~ You can talk that way to the people of Newfoundland if what you are trying to do is make political propaganda. But, if what you are trying to do is enlighten the Newfoundland.people, let them know how they stand, what the true position is, what you will do is, you will say to them; "look, your Government either or through their Crown Corporations have gone out and they

April 16, 1971, Tape 297, Page 5 - apb have borrowed $ 544 million .' 1 MR. CROSBIE: Plus. MR. SMALLWOOD: Plus nothing. MR. CROSBIE: Plus another half million. --- --- MR. SMALLWOOD: Plus not a nickle. The Government of this Province have not ------ - g6ne and borrowed one single nickle oore than $544 million. MR. CROSBIE: What about the $130 million at Come by Chance? MR. SMALLWOOD: The Government have not borrowed more, not one nickle more, not one cent more, as of this afternoon. MR. CROSBIE: Tripe. MR. SMALLIDOD: Than $544 million MR. CROSBIE: Plus another half million. MR.

SMALLWOOD: I am talking about what the Government of the Province have borrowed, and they have borrowed it in two ways. (1), they have put out bonds of the Government, and (2), they have put out this - the Crown Corporations have borrowed it. When the two are put together, $482 million by the Province, and the $62 million by Crown Corporations, when they are put together it is a grand total of $544 million,as of this moment. MR. CROSBIE: What about the Crown Corporations? MR. SMALLWOOD: Never mind, what about anything. !'make the categorical statement. MR. CROSBIE: It is an incorrect one. MR.

SMALLWOOD: It is a truthful statement, it is correct, it is accurate, it is complete, and it is total. MR. SMALLWOOD: As of this moment. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. SMALLWOOD: I will deal with that too. MR. CROSBIE: What about Crown Corporations and Come by ChaQce. MR. SMALLWOOD: I am not pulling any punches, I am hiding nothing. I am not repeating the Opposition's game. MR. CROSBIE: What about Provincial Buildings?

April 16, 1971, Tape 297, Page 6 - apb MR. SMALLWOD: What about this and what about that; and what about your great-grandmother? MR. CROSBIE: We do not want to forge -t it. MR. SMALLWOOD: We do not want to forget anything. We want the complete truth, and I am giving the complete truth. MR- CROSBIE: As far as you know. MR. S?H..ALLWOOD: The Government of the Province and the Crown Corporations of the Province, and remember that a Crown Corporation that is wholly owned by the Province, is the Province. So the Province as a Province, mu1 the Crown Corporations as such, together, have to this moment gone out and borrowed in their own names, directly, $544 million, and that is 1429

April 16, 1971 Tape 298 NC - 1 MR. SMALLWOOD: the net debt of this Province at this moment. That is the net debt. Now I will deal with the red nose, MR. CROSBIE: Would the hon. minister permit a question? MR. SMALLWOOD: Sit down. MR, CROSBIE: What about Provincial Buildings? MR. SMALLWOOD: Sit down. Sit down, The hon. gentleman took two days here. Two days he took, He took the whole morning, the whole afternoon, and I think he took the whole night and then the next day he took the morning and he took an hour in the afternoon, that was yesterday. Now he wants more time. He will wait for it. That is all.

That is the limit, that is the total amount, $544 million. Go on, bring in the Auditor General, bring in the Controller of the Treasury, bring in the Deputy Minister of Finance, bring in anyone you like, put them on tath and they will tell you that the grand total debt, net debt, the gross debt is a bit bigger but there is an amount of money to pay off the debt, that is the sinking fund, so the actual amount is $544 million. I know that is what they will tell you. That is the debt of the Province. Now it is true that there are others who owe money and I am going to tell you who they are.

There are other people who went out and borrowed money, not the Province, not the Government, not the Crown Corporations, here is who went out and borrowed money. The Municipalities, the Town Councils, all over the Province, went out and borrewed a total $41.5 million, they borrowed that money. The Town Councils all around the Province, they have gone out and at this moment the ow~ $41~5 million, they owe it, they borrowed it, they received the money, they spent the money,, we never saw the sight of it. Do not include that in our public debt, it forms no part of it.

This is the public debt of the Town Councils, who went and borrowed, who had it and spent it, and spent it and I have no doubt spent it wisely and gave pretty good value for it and the people living in those Towns are very pleased and very

April 16, 1971 Tape 298 NC - 2 MR. SMALLWOOD: happy that the money was borrowed by those Town Councils to do good things with the money, $41.4 million. Then School Boards,around $1 million. E.P.A., that is a private Company, Eastern Provincial Airways, of which we are very proud in; this Province, we are very proud indeed, they went out and borrowed money to buy planes, to buy accessories, to buy spare parts, to buy equipment of allkinds they went out and borrowed money. E.P.A., that is a private Company.

They borrowed the money, they received the money, they had the money, they spent the money, they are paying the interests on the money and when it falls due they will pay off the debt. Do not include that in the Newfoundland Government public debt. Newfoundland Light and Power Company is a private Company. They borrowed $1.4 million, they received the money, they spent the money, they owe the money. Do not put that in with our public debt.

Oh Atlantic Fish Products, Bonavista Cold Storage, Burgeo Fish Industries, Burgeo Trawlers, Fishery Products (that is the Monroe Empire), Philip James and Sons, Ocean Harvesters, John Penney and Sons, Gaultois Fish Industries Limited, Newfoundland Quick Freeze, all of these are private Companies. 1hey are not Government Corporations, they are not Crown Corporations, the Government had no shares in them, we do not own them or any part of them, they are private Companies,like Bowring Brothers, like Ayre and Sons.

If Ayre and Sons had gone out and borrowed money, would you include that debt in the Newfoundland Government public debt? These private Companies have borrowed that money. They owe it and they have to pay the interests on it and pay back the principal when it is falls due. Mount Peyton Motel Company, the Paragon Hotel Limited, AN HON. MEMBER: That is in default. MR. ~?-f!LLWOOD: Whether it is in default or making a million a year, these are private Companies, they borrowed the money, the only time the Newfoundland Government comes into that picture is, if, as and when they default. That is 14~1

· .. April 16, 1971 Tape 298 NC - 3 MR. SMALLWOOD: all. That is the only time we are in the picture. _ Fogo Island Motel, Hefel St. George's Limited, Moorland Limited, Signal Hill_Mot~l, Crossioads Motel and so on. The Gander Hockey Association, Harboar Grace Recreation Centre, St. John's Trotting Park Limited, Corner Brook Ski Club, Dougald Duffett,George Humby, Newfoundland Association for the Help of Retarded Childrett, Newfoundland Iron Works Limited, L & D Spracklin, Harbour Grace Water Company, Newfoundland Co-operative Services, Bonavista Recreational Association, St.

Clare's Mercy Hospital, and a large number of pig farmers, Valley Properties Limited, all these private enterprises have gone out and borrowed money. Why include their debt with the public debt of Newfoundland? But this is what the Opposition do, they go to the Newfoundland people and they say my dear, good. he~I'J'.ed,innocent Newfoundland people, we as Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, so eager, so anxious to educate you, to inform you, to let you know what is going on, we come to you and we tell you that the Government's debt is $1,000 million, the public debt is $1,000 million.

Now to do that,as I said this morning, it would be n~cessary if you are going to add the $307 million to the $544 million that the Government borrowed, if you are going to add what the others borrowed, if you are going to add that on to $544 million, you will bring it up to $852 million, but for us to m-re ~~52 ~illion, it is necessary that every one of those private loans would default, all of them default, the whole lot of them default. Can you imagine, Mr. Speaker, have you got enough imagination, Mr.

Speaker, has anyone in the house here got enough imagination to imagine a failure, a defaulting, a failure of E,P.A., Newfoundland , Light and Power Company, Hotel Holdings, Artie Fish Products, Bonavista Cold Storage, Burgeo Fish Industries, Fisheries Products Limited, John Penney and Sons, Gaultois Fisheries, Newfoundland Quick Freeze Limited, Mount Peyton Hotel, the Paragon, Skyways, Fogo Island Hotel, St. George's, Moorland, 14~9 ~u~

April 16, 19 71 Tape 298 NC - 4 MR. SMALLWOOD: Signal Hill Motel,Crossroads Motel, and on and on. Can anyone in this House imagine all of them defaulting? They have to default, everyone of them, the whole lot of them, if you are going to add the $307 million that they owe to our public debt, because we do not come into the picture unless they default,and they are not going to default.

There will be an occasional one that will, there always was, there always will be, but they are not going to default, it is madness, it is insanity, it is lying propaganda and foul lying at that, filthy lying, to insinuate, to suggest, that all these concerns and organizations are going to go into default, they have got to go into default, before we come into the picture. Why shove us in the picture? Why railroad us into the picture? Why ram and gag us into the picture where we do not belong?

We will belong if they all fail, remember this, even then, even then, remember this, not only must they all fail but the property they put there with the money they borrowed, ships they built, the fleets of draggers, the great fish plants, thirty-eight of them, some of the best in the world, some of the finest fish plants in the whole world, some of the finest draggers in the world, mines, hotels, Town Councils, water and sewer systems, all of these must not only fail so that the $307 million that was borrowed by those people to build those things, not only can they not pay that, but the property itself must disappear, it must vanish into thin air.

There must not be a sign of a fish plant anywhere in Newfoundland, not one. There must be no sign of a dragger, not one. All the property must disappear, must have no sal~a~le value. The lights must disappear, the power must disappear. The whole thing is just crazy, it is just crazy. There is famine upon the land, ·· There is famine upon the land, indeed , ~he assets are worth far more than the guarantees. The money that was borrowed to put them there was $307 million, within the last twenty-two years. That is what is owed at this moment. But Sir, Sir, a lot more than

April 16, 1971 Tape 298 NC - 5 MR. SMALLWOOD; that was borrowed. That is what is owed at this moment. But ten years ago, twelve, fifteen years ago, eighteen, twenty years ago, twenty~two years ago, much more than that was borrowed, but it has been paid off and this $307 million is only part of what was borrowed by those Companies and Town Councils and mines and so on and so on. They borrowed much more than that and spent it, . they got something to show for it. It has been paid back.

They pay no interest on it, the principal is paid off, so the $307 million that they owe at this minute is not anythin2 like the value of the property that they have. For this $307 million they have at least a half a billion dollars worth of property, worth of assets, But these assets must disappear. They have all got to vanish, it is not enough for them to default on what they owe, the different things., and bond houses from who~,they borrowed the money, that is not enough for them to default, for us to be stuck, the property that was put there got to vanish as well.

Now, does any hon. member of this House think that that is possible? It is possible, yes. If ten atomic bombs were to be dropped simultaneously on this island and wrecked and destroyed every bit of property that was put there with that money, then not only would the people who owe the money default and the Government have to pay it, but the ,;;ovemment couldmot salvage anything because it would be all gone.

But could anybody imagine that1 There is not a person within sound of my voice at this moment, not one person, but knows what I am saying,the rock bottom common sense and truth, but Sir, is this the way it will be put to the Newfoundland people'Z No Sir, what is owed by E.P .A., ,.'hat is owed by Fishery Products, what is owed by Gaultois Fisheries, what is owed by all the Town Councils,

April 16, 1971 Tape 298 NC - 6 MR. SMALLWOOD: will still be 'described,in spite of what I say, will still be called the Newfoundland Government public debt. MR. CROSBIE: The Auditor General shows it that way. MR. SMALLWOOD: He does not, lie does not show our debt as being one nickle more than $544,300 .,000. as of today, what he shows was less than that. MR. CROSBIE: A year ago. MR. SMALLWOOD: A year ago what he showed was $402 million,as at March 31st., 1970. MR. CROSBIE: $766 million. MR.

SMALLWOOD: He did not, he showed $402,559,000 after you took off the $61.25 million of sinking funds, it left us with a net debt, a net direct debt, on March 31, last year, of $402.5 million. Then, in addition to that, in addition to that (let me read it) I am able to read. I learned it in school. $63,920,000, that was the debt. That was $465 millions, say $466 millions. That was the Newfoundland Govemment's debt, $466 millions, net debt, both our own immediate debt and our crown corporations brought it to that total at the 31st of March 1970.

Since then, the figure has come up from $462 million to $482 million and it has gone down fro~ $63.9 million to $61.7 million, for a grand total of $544 million dollars today, this day, this afternoon . That is the debt 1 11. ••••• l_l:.__,J

Apr.il 16th,. 1971 Tape 29 9 Pk - J AR. SMALLWOOD: tl at i~ the deht that includ'-s al] our horrow:1.n\" in LrJndon $20 ITlillion. :1.n New York the other day $25 million and from the Canada Pension Fund $2 million, $47 million add it on to the total of $ROI+ million, hrinp.s it to $851 miJlion, and yes there is another three.quarter million and I round it out and I call it $852 million. That is the prand total of our debt and the other peoples debt, E.P.A. 1 s debt. 1-IF.

CROSBIF.· Would the hon. the Premier nermlt a question? 1,'hy does the Auditor ~eneral report on the ,Urect an,1 -f.ndirect debt of the Province and show j_t,a year apo. as ~76 million Lf there is not some relevance to the fact that the r.ov~rm,,ent have J!'Ot an indirect debt plus a clirect debt? And why is the hon. the Pre1T1ier includinr Crm,rn r.orporations. such as the Provincial Buildinp.s. Provincial Refininp. at Come-by-Chance who are borroPing Sl30 mill ion? Why :1.nclude. just some r.ro\-m Corporations and not others? 1'1R. SMALl,lt'f10D· Now. t1r.

Speaker. the hon. 11:entleman •.-ill still go on, T orophes{ed, I forec~ste.d, because I know as surely as I am standi.nf)' here now that he wiJl po on telling the Newfoundland people that our Public Debt is SJ. hillion f:1.fty mil.Hon .J!'one over ~1 hill.ion, pone over one thousand 111illion doll.'lrs. :>fR. r.ROSBl:F: That is a hundrer1 percent true. MR. St!ALLWOOD~ It is untrue. It i.s false. I wiJl not say it is a lie, because if I say it is a lie, what I am sayin!': is somethinp. very unparliamentary, namely· the hon. gentleman knows the truth, telling the opposite for the nu1:pose of deceiving.

That would he unparliamentary. That would be a lie, So I have to assume he is a complete iJ!lloramus, that he really does, therefore. he is speaking in :I.Jmorance. Re is not lying. A lie is somethinp. told with the deliberate intention of deceiving. I do not accuse him of hav:!.np a deliberate intention to deceive. All I say, that he speaks in ip.norance. HR. CROSBIE· Why does the hon. the Prern:tcr not answer the questions. He has

April 16th. 1971 Tape 299 - PK - 2 MR. CROS'Blf.: not answered -a question yet, he gets into abuse. He cannot answer it, it is unanswerable, or he will not attempted to answer it. ~. SH.ALLWOOD: Now, ~-'r. Speaker, when you go to the SF.C and you give an account of your finances. !!R. CROSBIE: Yes. but. tell the truth. l.fR. SMALLWOOD· When you do that. MR. CROSlrt:F: We have got it here. }!R.~~1ALL~'.9_£)_Q: When you go to the SF.C and give them an account of your finances, it is no use, it is useless to say to the SFC..look it is true that our debt is so much. That is true, you cannot deny it.

That is the truth. That is our beht. We owe it. We borrowed it. Pe have not paid it hack yet. So we owe it, it is our debt. We had to admit that. But, but, l•lr. SF.C, but hold on, we have ,zot 6000 miles of roads we built with that money. MR. CROSBIE: That is the truth there. t_!R. s~.~_L.1:_1•1_00D_: We have built a thousand new schools with that money. We h/l'-'P l,11ilt twenty-eight new hospitals with that n,oney. He have built sixty-odd water and sewer systems w:f.th that money. Pe have a lot of assets. They say.' Oh. no you have not. Oh, no you have not. You have not got any assets. These are not assets.

These involve you in further spendinp. They are not assets. They are a drag