VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY: UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE 0~ ASSEMBLY ~OR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p,m. 30 June, 1978 NO, 106

• June 30, 1978 The House met·at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape 5002 PK - 1 On behalf of hon. members, I am pleased to welcome to the Speaker's gallery Brigadier Authur Pike,Divisional Commander for the Salvation Army in Eastern Newfoundland. I know hon. members join me in welcoming the Brigadier to the House of Assembly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ·ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, if I may rise on a rna tter of privilege which is the usual matter of privil_ege, and that is I wish to make a very brief personal statement· but not raise a substantive motion, which understand is in accord with the rules of the House. Sir, I was not in the House yesterday at the time when certain answers were given by the Minister of Industrial Development •. the gentleman for Humber East (Dr. Farrell) in respect to certain questions which were asked of·him and I have not been able to get the Hansard record because it is not as yet available, so I do not have the minister's exact words.

But I have seen the report in The Daily News and I gather what happened is that the minister in response to a question said something like he had been told that at some point,that he understood that all of the ministers in the Smallwood Administration were in the habit of receiving or being offered and accepting cases of liquor from The Newfoundland Liquor Commission or from its .oredecessor body, whatever the official title of that agency was at the particular time. A number of my colleagues here in the House who were in the Smallwood Administration stood and denied that any such thing .had happened.

I was not here, .thus I did not have the opportunity to, and I do not want to let the record stand ~rithout a denial from me, Sir. never received nor ·Nas I offered any such gift by the Corporation or,may I add,by anybody else during my tenure as minister. And I would think, Sir, that I would speak for all of the members of the Smallwood Administration when I say that no such gifts of liquor were offered by anybody or accepted. And I do feel, Mr. Speaker, that the minister - and I 'gave him a brief notice before

v June .30, 1978 Tape 5002 PK- 2 Mr. Roberts: I raised it, that I would be raising the matte~~ I do think, Sir, he owes the House an apology. I think he owes those of us in the House who were members of the Smallwood Administration an apology - SOME HON; MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: - and I think he owes an apology, Sir, to all of the men -who served in that Administration, and many of whom are not here in the.Chamber and thus cannot speak. Sir, I do not think any such gifts were given, and I would go further ; I do no-t think the minister 9 with all respect, has any evidence to support that.

Somebody·may have told him that, but that, Sir, that kind of hearsay does not make evidence and that kind of hearsay, Mr. Speaker, does not justify the kind of statement which ·apparently. the minister made. Now I can understand, Sir,. that the minister is under some considerable pressure,and · I can understand there has been considerable embarrassment caused to him because of gifts of liquor. which apparently were made to him, judging by sworn testimony given at the Royal Commission being held before Mr.

Justice Mahoney of the Supreme Court, but, Sir, that,while it may explain his ~ction in making this statement,certainly does not excuse it. Not only do I deny that I was involved in it, I resent having to deny it •. resent very much having to - SOME.HON. "MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR; ROBERTS: - stand and· deny this kind of broadside1meaningless accusation, an accusation that is certainly irresponsible if not more. SOME.HON:. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

ROBERTS: And I would suggest though, Sir, the minister·.,! know him well and he is a man of honour, and I believe a man of probity.· - and I suggest, Sir, he might want to take an opportunity to apologize for an offense which he committed, but I do not think he intended to commit, and that is an offense which reflected on all ·of us, Sir, who served in the Smallwood Administration.· SOME.HON; "MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

.: " . '! June 20, 1978 MR. SPEAKER: DR. FARRELL: Tape 5002 PK - 3 The hon. the Minister of Industrial Development. Mr. Speaker, I have great respect for the han. the member for the Straits (Mr. Roberts), and indeed for most han. members. And if I have been erroneous and wrong in this, ··and hopefully I am, that was expressed .to me, and if it is stated that no such matter occurred I am willing to retract it, and certainly apologize to the members affected. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I have heard both hon. · gentlemen on a matter of personal explanation, .and since both han. gentlemen have been heard I think there will be no need to entertain any further discourse. I am not sure if the han. gentleman for the Bay of Islands (.Mr. Woodrow) intends to stand on an additional question of privilege. MR. WOODROW: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR; SPEAKER: will certainly recognize the hon. gentleman but I am myself in the process of ruling on points of privilege which came up last night.

I realize privilege takes precedence, but I would think that privileges which are already under consideration I would dispose of now, T·hat will only take a short while and then I will recognize the hon. gentleman. MR. WOODROW: After? MR; ·sPEAKER: After. Yes. MR; WOODROW: Thank you, Your Honour. "MR. SPEAKER: There are two points on which a decision was reserved last night, two points of privilege. With respect to the first point.of privilege brought up by the hon. gentleman for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir CMr. Simmons): I·have spoken with both the hon. Minister of Health and the han. member for ·surgeo-Bay d'Espoir.

Hon. members in the House are aware

• t• ". v June 30, 1978 Tape 5003. EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER: no doubt that sometimes in the heat of debate, matters are said which are later withdrawn. I think it is fair to say as well that in the heat of the aftermath of debate when the House is in the state of ~dj~urnment, things are sometimes done which are later, if not withdrawn, regretted. The hon. the Min.ister of Health expresses his apologies to the bon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d 'Espoir (Mr.

Simmons). for any inconvenience or discomfort his actions last night may have caused him, the hon, the member·for Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir accepts that apology and that disposes of the matter. I thank bon. gentlemen for permitting me to dispose of it in that manner. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The second point of privilege on which I reserved decision last night, brought up by the bon. the Minister of Health, on that matter I have reviewed the arguments and,in my opinion, it is not a matter in which the area of privilege is involved.

There ar• differences of opinion, differences of allegation, but not a matter in which the Chair is in a position to make any ·decisi·on -·or which comes under the Chair's authority, so that will dispose of. the second matter. I am in a difficult position now because I know the hon. gentleman's intentions, but I had said that if the bon. gentleman were going to rise on a matter of privilege I would have no choice but to hear him. The hon. the member for Bay of Islands. MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, on a matter of personal privilege, it was reported last night by Mr.

Ted Warren of Q Radio that I was not in the House of Assembly when the vote was taken on Bill No. 50. Mr. Speaker, I would humbly ask that you ask the Clerk of the House to read the list to make sure that my name is on the list, that I was here last night when the vote was taken.

June 30, 1978 Tape 5003 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER: This is another matter of personal explanation. The Minutes were read and I assume that they are accurate. They were adopted. The Minutes of the House show the hon. gentleman as voting in the division. Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: The hon. the member for Burgeo - Mr. Speaker, it is my great privilege and pleasure this morning to rise on a very important occasion and to recognize the anniversary of the Salvation Army in the world.

It is the lOOth Anniversary of that organization as the Salvation Army.· The organization is older than that, having been formally begun thirteen years previous in 1865 under the name of the Christian Mission, and then in 1878, the founder of what has become the Salvation Army, William Booth, was conferring with some of his top officials, including a gentleman who became known as Commissioner George Railton in the Salvation Army,and they were looking for a new name for the organization.

And George Railton suggested that perhaps a good name for the organization would be the Volunteer Army, to which William Booth responded, We are not volunte~rs here and he took his pen and scratched the word 'Volunteer' and wrote in the word 'Salvation', and so the organization got its name which it has had for 100 years. Today is the actual date of the event I have just mentioned to you, which to~k place 100 years ago, .the naming of the Salvation Army by its founder, William Booth.

He with his wife, Catherine, of course, gave leadership to the Army in its initial years and then they were succeeded by others, and the present General, it is worth noting, the present leader of the Salvation Army· is a Canadian, General Arnold Brown. His immediate predecessor, it is worth noting, was a native born Newfoundlander, General Clarence Wiseman, who was born in Moreton~s Harbour in Notre Dame Bay. ·'

··~ Jurie 30, 1978 Tape 5003 EC - 3 MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I believe it is rather important .that we salute this organization on this particular day. It begins ~ts own celebrations in London, England today ~her~ SO,nOO Salvationists from all over the world have gathered, including a couple of hundred from Newfoundland, ~o begin celebrations of this important event. The Salvation Army has

~. .. '-' .. June 30, 1978 Tape No.· 5004 )r.·! - 1 ~'R. SH~ONS: been for oany years a very vibrant religious and social force in the Ne1~foundland community. Indeed t half the total Salvationists in Canada reside in the Province of :{ewfoundland and Labrador.

So, ~lr; Speaker, :t just want to be associated with any re.cognition the House might Hant to give to this organization today and perhaps the appropriate thing would be for me to move a motion that an appropriate letter of commendation, recognition be .sent to the leadership of the Salvation Army here in.Newfoundlan:d on this occasion, perhaps the Acting Government House Leader would be prepared to second such a motion. S01!E RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~. SPEAKE?.: The hon. ~·linister of Mines and Energy. :-m. PECKFORD: ~r.

Speaker, 1~e very much 1vould like to associate ourselves with the comments of the hon •. member for Burgee -Bay d'Espoir on the Hundredth Ann~versary of the Salvation Arrrry as known as the Salvation Arrrry. As the hon. member has mentioned, the Salvation Army has been a force for good not only in this Province or in this Country,but throughout the ~.,orld, socially as well as in the religious sense and I think all hon. members present,and not only all han. members present but all Newfoundlanders lfOuld on this particular issue totally agree 1dth the comments made by the member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Hr.

Simmons).

The Salvation Army has, in its ~1ay, in a very peculiar and unique way, enabled to rise above many of the norrnal, shall I use the Hord disputes or frictions that seem to become a part of religious ~rganizations over the last century, rose above that and have become the main· social force and attached clearly uith religion as well in the 1;or!d • . ~nd t·le over here v;ish to go on record and to second the motion put by the hon. ~e~ber for Burzeo-Bay d'Espoir to send congratulations to the leadership of the Salvation Army for :m exc~llent achie•ter..ent :-eccrd of 1~0 y;::P-rs c.t:C r- t!:ir .. !: !t is fzir ~o SAY t!"-'_.:,t th~ ':·;orld :..s

! "' . ) 4 Ju:1.e 30, 1978 Tape No. 5004 NM- 2 . MR. PECKFORD: ~etter because t:his organiz~tion :~~s SO~!E HO~. l-!1:2-!BERS: T~e ~o~. ~ember for 3t. Jchr.'s South. D!l. J. CCLLI:ls: l!r, Speaker, I would li!~e to associate :::yself \·:it!: c:1c motion put forward by c!le !ton. :netJber for !lur~;eo- Bay d 'Espoir C!r. Si=ons) :md seconded by the temporary !lousa Leader.

I do this because I ;lave· been associated vith the Salvation Army in one particular aspect and th<it is the health aspect. non. members~! am sure,are aware t!lD.t the Grace Ge."leral Hospital is part of the healt!l division, if one mi~ht term it that, of the Salvation Army in Ne1~foundland and that this has been one of t;1e major hospitals in the Province, one of the base hospitals in the Province.

It has been in operation since I believe 1923 and in particular it is-,I th:ink,the premier obstetrics hospital for the ~rovinc:e, the major refGrral :10spital in obstetrics, particularly complicated obstetrics and accordingly the ill new born for the Province and this is the area that I ·am particularly associated 1vith. ·one can only have admiration for the activities of the Salvation Army in this particular field. They have done a service to Newfoundland that it. is very difficult to put a measure· on. I might say just in closing that the presant.

Administrator of the Grace General l!ospital, :1ajor Hammond, is leaving us in the near future and that this is a loss and a great loss but I trust that his successor will carry on the excellent work that has been the feature of that organization. SOHE HON. :-lE·!BERS : Hear, hear! :1R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burin-Placentia Hest. HR. CANNING: Mr. Speaker, I would be amiss perhaps in my duties if I did not stand here today, Sir, and congratulate

June 30, 1973 Tape No. 50:'~ ;n·t - 3 this great organization which has done so much for humanity during the last 100 years. But I will specifically mention the fact that during the Second World lVar,I had the privilege to be in the front lines in several evacuations and in all landings to r.elieve Europe and the world of ·misery. I witnessed the ••or!-: of the soldiers, those young men a&d yomen who

.. -'j.. •• June 30, 1978 Tape 5005 DW - 1 ~!R. P. CANNING: risked their lives for freedom to rescue the world from dictatorship and all the evil that was brought on. us in that year. Hr. Speaker, I am sure rny colleague to my right took

part in that terrible IJar. We verify and any other persons within this House who were in the front lines, that side by side with the armies and the navy and the air force,those of us who have had to kill to win saw with us ,in most cases on the same ships .from which soldiers 'Jere fighting this great body of people. Inthe name of the humanity they were side by side with us,and.if not I can assure this House that they followed closely after. and bravely faced the·same dangers that we did,the bombs, the machine guns, and the mines and whatnot. Hr.

Speaker, all during that period I became a great admirer of that body known as the Salvation Army and today. I am proud that I can publicly- I have done it so often to those people privately-hut today I am glad to stand here and congratulate them publicly and on behalf. of myself all those who served,! suppose 1from Newfoundland express our appreciation for· the greatest group that I saw in the name of humanity working, endangering thmir lives and suffering side by side with the people who freed the world in tvorld \~ar II. Sm!E HON. l!EiillF:RS: Hear, hear: PRESENTING PETITIONS :·!R. SPEAKER: The hon.

Leader of the Opposition. NR. W,N, ROWE: Hr. Speaker it is once more my great pleasure and privilege to have the. opportunity to present or beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the students of lfemorial University, The prayer of the petition is as follows, "Hhereas ·the· students of ~'emorial University have presented a brief to the provincial government concerning cutbacks in post secondary education spending therefore we the undersigned go on record as supporting the ,, ' , recommendations of the brief and urging the provincial government to take action on the recommendations.'' Now, Hr. Speaker, this

.... June 30, 1978 Tape 5005 DW -·.z HR. IV.N. ROWE: particular petition itself is signed by 650 names of students at ~!emorial University t~hich when combined with the names appended to petitions which have already presented to this hon. House brings the 'total up to within 40 or so names of 4,000 names in total, Mr.

Speaker, nearly 4,000 names of students have been appended ·to petitions protesting the cutbacks of this administration in the field of education. l~en you consider that there are about.?,OOO students registered at the university,already, Sir, two-thirds of the student body have been moved to protest most vigorously by the use of petitions,vigorously, Sir, but in a very peaceful and democratic fashion to protest the cutbacks of this government in the field of educ~tion generally and especially in the field of post secondary education and the cutbacks in university spending.

Now, Sir, the brief referred to is one which has already been mentioned in this. House,which I will table with the petition when the tfme cotnes,is this paper called the Pink Paper which evokes many connotations;of course,when you read through the paper itself you see that it is an extremely responsible,logical, well-thought-out doeument,vigorously,again,and cogently showing why there should not be cutbacks and why

'~ ... June 30,1978 Tape No. 5006 Ali-1 ilR.l;.ROi\iE: educational spending snnuld in fact be increased instead of cut back by this administration if we are going to do our duty to the new generation coming up, Sir, a new generation of educated and trained Newfoundlanders. I especially commend 'to the attention of members of the House, Sir, if they do not have an opportunity to read the whole brief,which they should,but if they do not the conclusion at the end of the brief which containes the substance of the brief itself.

Some of the vital conclusions made are.for example;education must be accessible to students of all social classes not just the privileged elite, Hr. Speaker, but to all social classes. Another point made is that the quality of education must not be allowed to slip even further behind that available to students in other parts -of Canada.

Another point, Sir, of great importance, a point which has been made here on several occasions but which cannot be made too often, we in this Province, this Province which has not fully developed its resources yet, its natural resouraes or its human resources,should not allow our educational standards and quality to fall even further behind that already reached in the rest of Canada.

We should in fact spend more money and devote more effort and more attention to bringing our standards and qualities not just equal to the rest of Canada but beyond the rest of Canada because, Sir, that will be the ultimate salvation of the Province. The government must maintain educational funding at a level to keep pace with inflation. Now, Mr.Speaker, what could be more reasonable than that?

I understand that the cutbacks in education or the non-increases in education to an adequate level will not even allow our educational institutions to keep pace with inflation in the inflationary spiral and the inflationary pressures and the depreciation of the value of the dollar on a year to year basis. Mr. Speaker, there is no excuse for that whatsoever;the very minimum would have to be at least a maintenance of educational standards and spending and maintenance at least with a par or up to a par reached last year.

There is no excuse, Sir, to allow such a fundamental ·issue as education to go below what we have already reached as a result of inflationary

'"". .,.; June 30,1978 HR.W.ROWE: Tape 'No. 5006 AH-2 pressures and spirals. The government must maintain educational funding at a level to keep pace with inflation,as I have said, ~rr. Speaker, and then beyond that there are some recommendations and some faets which are made which show that the students' case is right, Hr. Speaker. There can be no argument on the other side that the students do not have a good case, do not have a conclusive case, that what this government is doins .is going to have a very adverse effect on the qualit~ of education in this Province.

The brief concludes with the following:"Furthermore we demand that the Government of Newfoundland at least maintain the present situation· "- at least maintain the present situation:. -"by increasing the operating grant to I~orial University to eight per cent to keep up with inflation allowing for a special funding component to prevent tuition and residence fee increases." Not to allow the financial pressures on students to increase,·Mr. Speaker, but to make sure that there·is special funding to at least keep tuitiory and residence fee costs at a level no higher than they have been in the past.

And,Sir, freezing the minimum student loan portion of student aid at $450, freeze it at that level, Sir, and not increase the financial burden on students any further because it can only have the effect of keeping qualified and deserving individuals out of the instit~tion, Sir, where they should be and where they·will have a great contribution to the social. and economic well-being of this Province.

As was mentioned yesterday, Sir, and I will conclude with this point because we only have five minutes on a petition, as was mentioned yesterday,· eveL' if you forget the· fair play and the equity involved and the aocial need and the civilized need to give evey qualified individual the right to go to university, Sir, even if you forget that for the moment and think purely in selfish economic terms,the investment made in getting a student through university or through.trade school, Sir, is more than recouped manyfold, recouped many times,recouped by the fact that the.larger earning power of that student when he goes out or she goes out into the ~orking world, the larger earning power and the larger salary

June 30, 1978 Tape No. 5007 N!·~ - 1 :-nt. lv; ROWE: and the taxation and so on like that, ~lr. Speaker, 'dll bring a greater return to the common pool, a greater return to the government and to the taxation sources and resources as the years go on, Sir. ·~ So, Sir, I must conclude and - my hon. friend is :·!R. NEARY: I thought you were going to sit ~!R. H. ROHE: - very aggressive, Sir, and very welcome to be so. But, Sir, let me conclude by moving that this petition be tabled in this han.

House, together ~dth the brief referred to therein and that the petition and the brief be referred to the department to Hhich it relates. MR •. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. :m. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I support the petition, Sir, presented by my hon. colleague, the Leader of the Opposition. This is the third day now in a row we have had petitions from young Ne,~foundlanders, young men and women in this Province, Sir, who are concerned about the fa_ct that because of financial reasons they may not be able to get a university education.

I think my han. colleague pointed out tl~t the petitions presented so far represent two-thirds of the students attending the university and the regional college out in Corner Brook. Now, "!r. Speaker, there vms a time a fe~~ years back, seven or eig!1t years ago, ~vhen students stood n chance of getting a job in- the Summertime.

They could come out of university ir. t:1e Summerti~:~e and t:tere ~~as half a c:bnnce th<:.t they ui&ht get a job, but as hon. members kno;v, today in·Ne.,foundland fifty per cent, ~-Tell over fifty per ce:1t of t~e unc:::ployed in this ·..' Province are between the ages of sixteen and t,.;-enty-five, you."lg :nen and women in this Province Hho can.."1.ot find .employment of any ;~ind. l.lld if a student is lucky enough to find a job in the Sur.1merti:::e

• .•. Jur.e 30, 1!?73 : IP.. • NE..t\.?..l : it is uuually a low paid job. It is the kind of a job where they have to "t.'or!;: as a waitress or a ·.vai ter or some lot~ - it is usually in service industry tvhere the pay·is very low. And so, ther~fore,Sir, it is almost virtually impossible at the present tine.

Unless you are the son or daughter of one of the h±gh mucky mucks in this Province then you cannot get ~ job 1 because here 1ve have an example again of where the doctors and the ~a;;yers nanage to poke their sons and daughters into provincial parks and into jobs that cannot be gotten by the ordinary student over at that university. They h~ve not got a chance. Not only, Sir, is the university becoming an elitist univeristy, but the job preference in the Sulii!Ilertime go to ·the sons and daughters of the big shots. So the student you might say, Sir, hardly has a chance at all of ·finding Summer employment.

Now, Sir, the Presidential Task Force that has been referred to so often over the last three days contains a number of recommendations t~t apparently have been ignored by the minister and by his counterpart in the ~overnment of Canada. But reco~endation number ten, Sir, in the Presidential Report refers to the Summer savings assessment and it states that the Task Force supports the principle of a Summer savings

schedule but reconunends that Summer savings be deducted from the loan portion of the students award rather than from the tuition and non-repayable grant position. This would prove to be an incentive for a student to seek Summer employment. It is further recommended that in calculating these Summer savings the Provincial minimum Hage be applied to students in all years, rather than the presently operated escalation scale. There should be a min~~u~ acount of earnings before the existing forty-five per cent savings factor is applied. For students _lvorking away from home t!1e first $800 of Summer earnings should be

June 30, 1978 Tape No. 5007 NH - 3 l :ITt. ~"EARY : exempt from deductions, 1dth the student being required to save forty•five per cent of the balance. Now, Sir, that is a very sensible recocmendation but as far as I can learn, Sir, as long as these presidential reports have been made that the minister and the government have ignored all these recommendations made by the President of the University and endorsed by the students. Now, Hr.

Speaker, 1~hen the students came up 1dth the pink paper,they had a meeting with the Pre!:lier and I met with the students shortly after and I was told by the students that it 1~as a very good meeting. The Premier 1~as very courteous, listened to 1~at they had to say and then they came al,•ay feeling that they had a very good meeting but ·there ~~as no commitments, no cornnitments on the part of the administration, even though the Premier came into the House a few days later and supported a petition that asked that the. government reconsider the .cutback in student aid.

But the Premier so far has cade · no commitment. The Minister of Education has

June 30, · 1978 Tape 5008 Pk - 1 Mr. Neary: made no commitment. The students have put forward an excellent brief, a brief that would do credit, Sir, to any group in this Province. They have done it in a civilized fashion. There has been no civil disobedience of any kind. It is an excellent brief, very well written and presented by a group of Newfoundlanders that we should be all proud of. So le1; us hope, Mr.

Speaker, that now as a result of these petitions, and as a result of the serious implications that these cutbacks are going to have on the students that we will hear the minister today stand in his place and tell the House and tell the students, because after all, Sir, they will soon have the results of their Grade XI examinations, and a lot of young people are considering now registering at the University,probably some of them have their letters written in already,. they will not know if they are going to be accepted until they get their marks.

But further than that, Sir, what is more serious even if they are accepted they do not know if they will be able ·to financially be able to attend the University in September coming. So it is urgent. The matter is urgent, Sir. The minister should make a decision on this matter at .an early date as possible. MR. SPEAKER (.DR. COLLINS): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. W: ROWE: I just rise very briefly, Sir, to correct a factual error which I made when I was presenting the petition •. Just .for the record, there were 1,300 names on the petition.

I was looking at another figure contained on the page, 1,300 names on that. particular petition, not 650 as I said. But·the total remains the same,about 4,000 names have been appended to the petitions which have been given to us by the students at Memorial University to date, Sir, 1,300 not 650. MR. SPEAKER.(DR. COLLINS): The hon. the Leader of· the Opposition rose on a matter of correction. The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. lUSH: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition presented by my friend and colleague,the .hon. the Leader of the Opposition on behalf

- '~ .. June 30, 1978 Tape 5008 PK - 2 Mr. Lush: of 1,300 students, 1,300 concerned men and women, 1,300 concerned young men and women concerned about their future and concerned about the future of this Province. Because, Mr. Speaker, the education of our·youth certainly this is the ffiost important resource that we have and the education of our youth is ·one of the high priorities of any . government. And it is unfortunate that the cutbacks resulted in education is not giving this kind of priority that this Province should be giving to education.

So it gives me great privilege. to support this petition on behalf of these concerned people,.young people concerned about a university education. And as I have said,the cutbacks in the Education Budget this year or in the monies allocated to education is detrimental and harmful to education in this Province. More particularly I am concerned about the student aid, the money that is available to students, that is .may concern. Because, Mr. Speaker, having attended University myself I know the burden that can be placed on a person when that particular person comes from a low income family.

When I finished university,or when I graduated at one point I was in the position·of owing $2,000, and, Mr. Speaker, that was back in 1962, $2,000. ·Now, of course, students cannot get to university by borrowing every year, by taking advantage · of the 1 oans that the University wi 11 extend through its grant system and through the Student Canada Loan, that chere is no way that they can leave University with that amount of money.

But in these times I was fortunate enough to be able to get a job every Summer even.though they were difficult then, but they are much more difficult now, and was able to work during the Summer but still came out owing $2,000 and I know as I say the kind of burden that this puts on a person when you go to work owing $2,000 for your education. And as I have .said in this particular case that the students concerned are looking at triple that figure and quadruple it, and quadrupled in certain cases depending on the need of the student.

It is a tremendous financial burden to put on students and it is discouraging our students from · attending university.

• ... June 30, 1978 Tape 5009 EC - 1 MR. LUSH: It is discouraging our students from becoming trained people to be of benefit to the people of this Province and to the country as a whole .. So, Mr. Speaker, I maintain that with respect to, its educational policy, particularly as it relates to the university, as it relates to the students, that the government is completely out of touch with the needs of the people of this Province, completely out of touch by its continual moves to try and put more of the responsibility of the student's education on that student. This seems to be what they are doing.

It started in 197.3. They seem bent, Mr. Speaker, on making the students of this Province - the poor students of this Province, the ordinary students of this Province - to make them assume the financial responsibility of their education. And, Mr. Speaker, this is the wrong direction, because we have in Newfoundland so ~any low income families, so many people who cannot afford to send their children to university. They cannot afford it.

And with the rate of unemployment so high, the students cannot get a job to supplement their income and now the government have gone on this crazy course~ this crazy policy of uping the loan,. making the students go more in debt, forcing them to borrow $700 - ridiculous, Mr. Speaker! And it shows a complete insensitivity, a complete lack of understanding of the needs of the people of this Province. And I would hope that the minister would revarse this stand immediately and freeze the loan as they have said here in their brief, to $450. Mr.

Speaker, even that is going to be a substantial burden on students when they finish owing $4,000.To become trained people, to become an asset to Newfoundland, it will cost them $4,000 at the end. They come out in the hole, a deficit of $4,000, to start paying off that before they can start_to live- ridiculous! And as I have said, the policy shows that the government are -

• ·_, June 30, 1978 Tape 5009 EC - 2 MR. LUSH: comp~etely insensitive to the needs of the people of this Province and completely out of touch • MR •. SPEAKER: Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: The hon. the member for Trinity - Mr. Speaker, I would like t~ - support the petition presented by the Leader of the Opposition on behalf of .1,300 students from the University, Sir, and in doing so I would like to take this opportunity, Sir, to congratulate the students, the 4,000 students representing approximately two-thirds of the Urtiversity population.

I would like to congratulate the students, Sir, in the way they have gone about trying to build and present their case in this particular instance. Sir, there was a time when I can remember all kinds.of mass demonstrations and we even had a minister of the Crown, Sir, at one stage - he is n6w an M.P., Mr. Crosbi~- advocate civil disobedience - a minister of the Crown, Sir - an incredible suggestion. Students, on the other hand, Sir, this year have presented petitions to this hon.

House; they hav~ prepared and associated with an excellent presidentia~ Task Force report; they have developed an excellent Pink Paper which has been tabled now here this morning in the House of Assembly; and they have held press conferences explaining their case, and they have had meetings with the Premier of this Province and presumably some of his colleagues. No civil disobedience., Sir, no threats, but a very well prepared case for freezing the loan and building a case for making university education available to anybody who is capable of entering the University.

Sir, we have a number of inequities a~ the present time as a result of the pre•ent government policy with respect to student aid. Sir, one inequity is the inequity within the student body or the students in the province itself, and that is whether a student can actually

• .. , .... · June 30, 1978 Tape 5009 EC - 3 MR. F. ROWE: financially afford to go to university or whether he or she cannot afford to go to university. In other words, the University appears to be becoming a university for the rich. That is one type of inequity . Sir, another type is the inequity that we have with respect to the University compared to other

• •• . , .. June 30, 1978 Tape 5010 DH - 1 HR. F. ROWE: post secondary educational institutions where,for example 1 if you go to the College of Trades and Technology you can get certain allowances,some of those allawances almost equivalent to salaries~ to get an education;you get paid .to get an education in one post secondary institution and in another institution, the university,you go very heavily in debt with the insecurity of not knowing whether or not you are getting a job when you graduate from that university.

And another, Sir, more serious inequity is when you compare the students graduating from this· university here in Newfoundland,the numbers and the quality of their education compared with the numbers and the quality of education being received by other universities on the mainland. Sir, it was the intention of the previous administration to make Memorial University one of the great universities in Canada,to stand up there amongst the top rated universities in our nation.

But, Sir, with this cutting back an operating grants at the university, raisllng the amount of money the students have to harrow before they can qualify for student aid, these t~~o. thing together, Sir, mean· that there will be a reduction in enrollment and there will be a decrease in the quality of education in our university •. And, Si'r, this will only do harm to the social and economic development of our particular Province.

And I have mentioned beforehand, Sir, that this is a relatively new university,only twenty-eight years old;we were late in starting as far as university is concerned and, Sir, we have a lot of catching up to do. We have only half the per capita average compared to the rest of the nation and, Sir, the students a~e making a very modest request in this Pink Pa~~E' not a great massive increase, Gir. I heard the Leader of the Opposition in reading out some of the conclusions. They want. simply to maintain the present situation. Sir, how modest can you get?

They want to maintain the present situation they want to increase the operating grants to 8 per cent just to keep up with inflation •. They are not asking for a great giant step fon~ard financially as far as government contributions are concerned,they

.. ... June 30, 1978 Tape 5010 DH - 2 :·Ut. F. ROl·IE: are actually just asking to maintain the status quo. Sir, nothing can be more modest and more reasonable than that kind of a request. I will end my remarks in supporting this petition by simply saying that. the ·students are to be congratulated in the way that they cond~cted themselves in building their case and they are .also to be congratulated for not asking for excessive demands in this time of restraint and simply asking to maintain the present situation and keep up with inflation and that type of thing.

So the students have to be congratulated and I whole-heartedly support this petition. HR. CANNING: l1R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burin - Placentia West. HR. P. CANNING:. Mr.

Speaker, in rising to support this petition, Sir, I would like if,I may refer,to some comments that I made in this House on I think somewhere around the fifteenth or the sixteenth ·Of July 1949,twenty-nine years ago next month.! stood in my seat on the government side of the House and speaking to a piece of legislation that was included in the Speech. from the Throne of that year in which· it stated that we ~-rere making preparations that we would during that session elevate the .old Memorial College to a status of degree ·conferring. Mr.

Speaker, I have before me the exact words of my speech.! do not intend reading,but coming to that portion of the 'Speech from the Throne,I referred to the history of the university ho~~ it originated, its birth ~Jhen it opened in 1925 with an enrollment of fifty-seven pupils and we have gone a long 1o1ay since then. Mr. Speaker, I paid tribute to men such as

.. c June. 30, 1978, Tape 5011, Page 1 -- apb MR. CANNING: Dr. W.W. Blackall, Rev. Levi Cirtis, or. V.P.Burke, who at that time was the only living member of those three. I said,"They lay truly and well the foundation of higher. learning so that our country may in peace have a noble living ~emorial to those who gave their lives who fought and died for King and Empire:' Then I said;'r feel that the whole House would be only too glad even to work overtime to alleviate the difficulties which bar the way to further growth of the local institution and seat of learning." Mr.

Speaker, .at that time that piece of legisla.tion was hailed in this House with some wonderful glowing speeches. We were all glad that what had been this poor little country of ours where we did not have the opportunity to even have a university could be then arriving at the stage where we could proclaim that we were about to have one. Mr. Speaker, at that time in the district that I represented,! do not ~hink there was one single person there, at least, only those who had_ gone away, who had a degree.

Since then I have had the satisfaction of seeing every degree conferred on students of the poorest of the poor, from every corner of that district. I did not think that I would have to stand up today to plead with the government to hear those petitioners, those young men from the university asking to be helped along towards .their degree, towards attaining their desires, what they want to do to make their way in this world. Mr. Speaker, ·I do not know if there is anyone on the other side of the House going to get up and support this petition but, Mr. Speaker, I feel they should.

Because, though they are not in the House at the moment,there are several of them who probably would not be-here if they .had not had the advantages that we originated

June 30, 1978, Tape 5011, Page 2 -- apb MR. CANNING: as a Liberal Government, advantages of having a degree-conferring university in their own Province. MR. WHITE: That is right. MR •. CANNING: They would not be prepared to come· into the House. There may be lawyers over there who took advantages of that. I am sure there are ex-teachers who took advantage of it. I am positive of that. And I think that these men themselves because of the opportunities we gave them will now stand in this House and back up the university students of today. We did it then when we did not have very much funds.

We had a lot of priorities, a lot of them, a lot of crying needs in this Province 1 but the men lvho got up in this House that day on both sides ' if the House, were prepared to work overtime, as I stated there, they were prepared to dig into the little funds that we had in a poverty stricken Province to. give us a degree-conferring .university to try to close that gap between ourselves and the mainland, the other provinces where they already had universities for years.

I think the history of that university when we see around us men holding positions today who took advantage of the free· education, I .think if they believe in Newfoundland, if they. believe in the future of our ·students, they will stand now and be grateful for the advantages that they have had owing to that bill that passed here on that day, or a few days afterwards, that made that Memorial University,a memorial to the dead, a degree-conferring university. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to lend my support to the petition presented by the Leader of the Opposition containing. about 600 - MR. W.N. ·ROWE: No, 1,300.

!' June 30, 1978, Tape 5011, Page. 3 -- apb MR. WHITE: - 1,300 was it? - the names of 1,300 students. Mr. Speaker, that brings the total, I suppose, to about 4,000 - is that the correct figure? 4,000, two parents each,representing 8,000 parents in Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker, altogether about 12,000 people. If you consider brothers and sisters and grandmothers and grandfathers, I suppose those students who we have spoken on behalf of here represent 70,000 or 80,000 or maybe even 100,000 people in this Province who are directly, Mr.

Speaker, concerned about this particular problem becaus~ they are concerned about the welfare of the students, their children, their·grand- children going to university and trying to get a decent education. I ~ sure Your Honour knows as do most members in this House that with our generation, as we were growing up in Newfoundland, the ·talk was, 'Now, get an education, and try to get an education'. Now some of us, Mr. Speaker, were fortunate enough in being able to, as I did, work in the. 1 umber woods to make some money to go to university.

I know other members did as well become involved in various vocations during the Summer months and so on to get enough money to go to university. But that has changed now.

If. -~ ~ . Tape ::o. 5012 m~ - 1 YR. HR!TE: All t:1ose j?articular places of cmplop.~ent are u..""lioni::ed and they are barred to anyloody new getting into that !:i~d of Her!~. ~o it is \ .. ery, very difficult, rfr. Spcal~er, no~·,ada.:;s to !!!ai"c some money to go to university, And even if he does get a job ia the Summer~ime, t!le amount of money ::c ;Jnke::; compared to ;;:,c.t :1e ;;mst spe.:t! ut university is rPAlly insignificant anvwav. Mr. S~eakPr, I am concerned about the effects that the government cutbacks are aoin~ tn have on education in this Province and I Alii concerned fuTther, Mr.

Soeaker, about how far the aovemm~nt miaht take this ~a,.ticula,. educAtional cutback. We have heard talk, Mr. Soeaker, this vea,. about the possibility of the medical school beinR ~hased out. I sat at a meeting in Gr.,nd Falls with the Premier, and the member for Gr .. nd Falls (Mr.

Lundriaan) 9 when a lot of encouraaement was aiven to the peonlP of GrAnd Falla with res~ect to a n~w hospital based on the ~ossibilitv that $7 million might be saved if the medical school were cloaed and the Premier was very insistent on his point in GrAnd Falls but when I questioned him about it here in the Hou"e he sort of withdrew a bit on that particular point. But since that I have he11rd the membeT' for Grand Falls (Mr.

Lundriaan) up in this House· OURAtiontng· the validity of a medical school and I am just wondering at what staae the medical school will go and tn what dearee the university will be cut back. And I am just wondering if it will be cut back to an elitist university with about 1,000 or 1,200 students. And I am sure no one would want that in Newfoundland. Because, Mr.· Speaker, any cutbacks by government has a serious effect on students who want to go to university and I might refer to the pink paper presented by the Students Council and they outline very graphically, Mr.

S~eaker, what kinds of effects government cutbacks towards education has on the university. The same scheme, the same cutbacks came in 1973 with disastrous effects on university enrollment and many students' lives. At that time the

~·· June 30, 1978 Tape No. 5012 NM- 2 MR. WHITE: cuts were to save the government, Mr. Speaker, and I am quoting from this pink paper, about $1.6 million. The twelve per cent drop in enrollment instead of a moderate increase as forecast by Statistics Canada resulted from this change immediately costing more to the university over $400,000 a year in lost tuition. fees, $400,000 just through cutbacks. In addition, by the time the twenty-nine per cent drop in first year enrollment had worked throu~ the system at least $550,000 more had been lost to the university, So we see what is happening.

Not only are students affected but the university is .affected, the number of faculty that can be at. the university is affected, so the whole gamut of Newfoundland society is affected, I. am glad to support this petition, Mr. Speaker, because of the great deal of concern I have for the future of education in this Province, SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. Georae's. MRS • MCISAAC : Mr. Speaker, I would just like to say a few words on this.

I believe that we cannot afford to increase the tuition fees for university graduates. any more than we can afford to cut back our student-teacher ratio, or increase it. We have people now who even taking advantage of the loan system _cannot afford. to go to university.

While they have been able to borrow a -certain amount, that certain amount is not enough to put them through university and they have to turn to their parents for the balance and in this day and age, ar!d certainly in a district such as mine where there is very, very low employment, practically nil, the· student has to do it on his own, And it is very difficult even with the s.tudent loan to be able to put yourself through university.

And now this increase from $450,I think it is, to $700 is something that the student just cannot handle, just cannot manage, and the parents cannot do anything about it and it is just going to

1.'! -·.·. / June 30, 1978 Tape 5013 EC - 1 MRS. MCISAAC: drive these students completely away from university and we are going to wind up some day in the not-too-distant future with nothing but a bunch of labourers or no further than Grade XI in this Province. And if we have Grade XI we certainly cannot get Grade XII in the districts where we live. You may be able to get it here in St. John's and in Corner Brook, but we cannot get it. And we have to send our students in here at the highest kind of rates and sacrifice to no end to be able to try and put them through.

And even if they borrow the $7,000 loan under the new system,they have a monthly pay back of $91. And I am reading from this Pink Paper, the total loan cost is $10,374 for a year. Now I cannot see for the life of me how our students can afford to do it. They go out, they are all going to be dropouts. And do not forget that the students of today are the leaders of tomorrow, and God knows, we need leaders badly enough. AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, right. AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, we saw that. MRS. MciSAAC: We know that.

Yes, we saw that and we know that we need leaders, and if we drive them all out of university, if we have a bunch of people out in society who have Grade g or less, I mean, ·it is wonderful to make fishermen and farmers out of them, but, you know, there are only so many fishermen, so many farmers and what • do we do with the rest of them? It is alright for the doctors and law~ers and people wh~ are on high i~co~e, maybe they can get their students through university.

I do not see any way that I can get mine through, not with the expenses .I have, and I cannot see an·y way ·that she can put herself through without going in the hole for years and years and working forever and a day. And those young people come out, they have the right to liv~ a natural life. I do not see any way that they could ever hope to get the

·• June 30, 1978 Tape 5013 EC - 2 MRS. MciSAAC: things out of society or live the lifestyle that we can live or that people on high income can live. There is no way they can afford to get married and take on a wife and a family, they cannot afford a car, they cannot afford anything. AN HON. MEMBER: Right. MRS. MciSAAC: Now I say that we have to do something to help those students. I do not know where it is going to be, but one place that I think it can be done is by watching the Public Tendering Act. And I think this is maybe a little bit out of ~rder, but it still does have an effect on the students.

And I want to say to the minister that while he do~~ not have control over the Public Tendering Act as far as school building i~ concerned, he certainly should have the authority to step in when he sees that there is extra money going int,o contracts, money that should not go into those contracts, and the minister knows full well the one that I am speaking of where there is $9,200 wasted on one particular contract - and I say wasted. There is just no way that we can allow this thing to go on. We have to cut it back and cut it back somewhere and it has to be taken charge of by the minister's department.

The minister is responsible and if the Public Tendering Act comes under him or i( there is anything else that comes under his department that can help save a few dollars and probably put it in the pockets of those students who want to go to university then I say to the minister, 'Do it.' And I fully support the petition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR·. R. MOORES: Hear, hear! The han. the member for Carbonear. Mr.

Speaker, in the late 1950s and the early 1960s, John Kenneth Galbraith, perhaps one of the greatest known economists in the world today - he is still living, still very influential when it comes to structuring

June 30, 1978 Tape 5013 EC - 3 MR. R. MOORES: economi~s of develop~d and semi-developed countries all ov~r the world. Now I understand some of his philosophies are being incorporated in the third world countries of Latin America, South America .and Africa. He came to Newfoundland in the late 1950s and early 1960s and at that time he met with the former Premier of this Province and he urged the Premier of this Province to undertake a great educational reform:

June 30, 1978 Tape 5014 PK - 1 Mr. Moores: "Educate your people because it is an investment in the future of your Province, and in the future economy of your Province!' MR.NEARY: That is right. MR. MOORES: Thus began one of the greatest educational revolutions this Province has ever seen in our 481 years.

The twenty­ three years~ not quite twenty-three years~ let us call it fifteen-of the former Liberal Government saw the.flourishment of education~the development of the intellect and mentality of Newfoundland students, particularly the poor ones,because inherent in the educational development of this Province is the proviso that our people, our students,do not have the money because their parents d:id not have.the money.

So Smallwood, the former Liberal Administration,incorporated the basic,fundamental principle that in order to develop the future of our Province and its economy we have to supply student aid to our students. And thus was introduced the greatest financial assistance programme and package for Newfoundland students -the likes of. it was never seen in this country before· _ and up until 1972 that economic assistance to students of this Province continued almost unabated except for the salaries programme.

When this government came to powe~ however·- bang! - the whole principle of investment in the future of the economy of this Province and its students was thrown out the window, - ·soME.HON; 'MEMBERS: 'MR: R. MOORES: Hear, hear! first with the Crosbie package in 1972 when he was Finance Minister, and later this was follo~1ed up in 1973 with further cutbacks, not only to student aid, and student assistance, but also to the development of the University. Post-secondary education in this Province has suffered intolerably, inhumanely, and uncompassionately under this government. SOME .HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR: R: MOORES: And now with the 1 a test teacher cutbacks they have started the last and final destruction of education in this Province. They are going now to the secondary schools, from the Kindergarten students, to the music,to the physical education,· and anything that they can destroy in education they will destroy it. SOME.HON; MEMBERS: Hear, hear! '·

June 30, 1978 Tape 5014 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I should draw to the hon.' gentleman's attention the rule precluding debate, and require the hon. gentleman to speak to the petition. MR. R. MOORES: Thank you very much, Mr, Speaker. I was speaking however somewhat indirectly on the· plight of the students in this Province. And the plight of the student of a secondary school and Kindergarten is fifteen years from today the university student tomorrow. So indirectly I was talking about the plight of the university students.

The Parsons report, which the Mi.ni ster of Education is quite familiar with,reconmended, I think six or seven years ago, that .if student aid continued to fall the stu~ent enrollment at the university would continue to fall, and the future of this Province would be detrimentally effected.

This minister, this government has turned a blind eye and a deaf ear not only to members of the general public r.ut to members of the University, to the academic body, to the administration of the University,and now I predict that they will turn a 1 blind eye and a deaf ear to 4,000 students of Memorial University who have petitioned this hon. House. I would suggest, Mr. Speaker; in closing,that if the Minister of Education does not come up with some concrete changes in his attitude toward student a.id and the University in this Province education generally is finished. Thank you. SOME"HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR: SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. John's South followed by the hon. gentleman for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. DR. J: COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition so ably presented on behalf of the students at Memorial University. And in doing so, Mr. Speaker, I think it is important to actually look at the paper, the so-called pink paper that accompanied the position. My reading of that p~per in no way leads me to think that the students meant to bring in any blanket condemnation of this government's financing policies in regard to education.

June 30,1978 Tape No, 5015 AH-1 DR.COLLINS: It is a very caref~lly drawn up brief., I might mention that recommendation two- ( am sorry, recommendation four is an adjustment in the way assistance is distributed throughout the year. In other words,it would be more front-end loaded just so that they would be able to handle their finances more expeditiously. Recommendation number six relates to the mechanisms for applying for assistance as opposed to increased amount of assistance or anything in that order,but just how the mechanisms are brought into play.

Recommendation number seven refers to appeals, that the appeals be handled in a more mindful fashion but actually does not request additional assistance as such. Recommendation number eight that the Corner Brook campus, the assistance there be handled more efficiently. In the supplement,then, recommendation number one that the interest payments be delayed if the graduate is unemployed for a period of time; just a delaying tactic there to assist in that regard. And in the supplement,recommendation n~er two~that there be certain other helps in making applications for assistance.

So these students drew up a very careful brief, they saw there were some administrative and technical defects in the plan as present in effect and they wanted these things remedied. Now in addition to that there were other requests in the brief that dealt more with actual added assistance,but even these added assistances were not blanket added assistances in most instances. For instance, recommendations numbers nin~ and ten referred to the deductions that might be brought into effect for assistance in regard to scholarships and Summer earnings.

This clearly did not apply to all students but those who were on scholarships and those who did have employment. Recommendation number eleven referred to bringing part time students into the programme,and again it was not a blanket call for extra financial imput by the government but a selective imput where there was particular need.

Recommendations number twelve, thirteen, fourteen and fifteen referred to certain. changes in the assistance regarding residence allowances, transportation costs, books and supplies, moving expenses - ap,ain the students did not irresponsibly just ask the taxpayer to give him any sort of a blank cheque

June 30,1978 Tape No. 5015 AH-2 DR. COLLINS: but he said that here are specific needs, specific difficulties - and I am paraphrasing now - and I humbly ask the government to look at these changes, we ask for to make the assistance being given more effective in our regard.

Now the recommendation number one,of course,is perhaps · the one that people tend to concentrate on more so; that is, that the assistance, the loan requirements should not go up to' $700 per semester but that they should be limited to $450; and .this,I think the students did want this to apply to all students,-so this was clearly a blanket request, this one out of those seventeen recommendations. This does bring up a certain number of matters that I do not have time to go into now but one is in regard to the type of university we wish.

Are we looking for a momument or are we looking for a university specifically designed for this Province ? I suggest that in some respects the univ'ersi ty is looked upon as a monument. I think that this is wrong. I do not think that as.a Province we can afford to erect millions of dollars of monuments.. l\e want a university which will cone in on the needs of this Province and. give us the graduates that the economy and the social life in this economy needs. I support the petition• NR. SPEAKER: Hon. member for. Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. · MR. SIHMONS: Mr.

Speaker, my colleague from Carbonear who ·spoke just a few minutes ago I believe made an excellent case for th£ quality of education as it existed in this Province before this administration took office. Indeed I was looking across the floor, reminiscing on the events of the last few hours,and I realized that nobody on the government side could argue his case that indeed there had been real quality education. When you ·realize, Mr. Speaker, that it produced the government whip~for example, that education system did, it;had to be quality education; to have

.... June 30, 1978 Tape 5016 EC - 1 ~1R. S U1MONS : produced the Minister of Education and the Hinister of Mines and Energy it must have been quality education, Mr. Speaker, if one can judge by the way they put their education into effect last night. Now this petiti-on, Mr. Sp.eaker, signed by 1,300 students at the University is just the latest of four such petitions we have had this week in this House with a total of 4,000 signatures of. university students both here and at the Corner Brook campus; students from all over the Province, principally, I would submit, Mr.

Speaker, from outside 'the city of Corner Brook and the city of St. John's, people who are really depending on financial assi~tance to be able to get a secondary education;, people, Mr. Speaker, not only from the outports but people also who have very limited financial means within their family and therefore are unable to attend university without the kind of assistance that the Liber~l Government made available t~ them in past years and which this government have cut back on and reneged on. Mr.

Speaker, this petition draws attention once again to the policy of this particular government and its Minister of Education~ and you stand back and look at it, Mr. Speaker, and you realize.that there is something almost sinster going on here. They are destroying everything - destroying the work ethic, destroying our great University - and you woul~ almost get the impression that it was a deliberate thing, that they had set out to be mischievous. ·our University is being destroyed, our human resources are being destroyed, not.being permitted to get an adequate education, our work ethic is being destroyed.

What kind, Mr. Speaker, of sinster crowd are we dealing with over there? How diabolical oust their minds be? And now the minister, Mr. Speaker, the.Minister of Education himself, of whom you would exp~ct much better, is clearly and openly

.. June 30, 1978 Tape· 5016 EC - 2 MR. SIMMONS: aiding and ·abetting this destructive process, this tearing away of the human resources of our Province, the youth of our Province, their chances of getting an education, tearing away at the very fibre of the University. It is a sad day, Mr. Speaker, a sad day when a petition from 1,300 youth in this Province comes before this House and is so completely unheeded by the one spokesman they have in the halls of government, the Minister of Education.

This is the fourth petition this week and once again,on behalf of the Opposition, I invitr him to get up and say something substantial on this point and tell us what he is going to do, what he is going to. ~ay in Cabinet, whether he is going to urge his colleagues to do something to alleviate the plight of those 4,000 people who signed that particular petition. MR. NEARY: Challenge him to get up. He does have an obligation and a responsibility~ you know. MR. SIMMONS: You are making an excellent speech, keep going! I thank the table. 1 AN HON. MEMBE~: Your turn for a haircut, Sir. MR; SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, could we not hear from the minister? Could we not hear that he· is going to do something at last? He is going to redeem·himself before his friends in Education; he is going to go to Cabinet and say, 'Look we have been all wrong on this. We have to stop socking it to those 4,000 people who are out there who signed this petition. We have to do something for them. I have been wrong; I want to stop destroying the University; I want to stop destroying our human resources; I want to stop fooling up the chances of the youth of this Province to get an education.' Would he do that now? MR.

NEARY: No, too weak-kneed. MR. SIMMONS: The opportunity is his.

June 30, 1978 Tape 5016 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Now before recognizing the hon. gentleman from St. John's West (Dr. Kitchen),! would like to welcome to the galleries some students ~ho are participating in the same exchange programme under which a number of students were in the House of Assembly yesterday,and that is an exchange programme organized by the Canadian Council of Christians and Jews. There are in the galleries ten Newfoundland students and ten students from the Province of Quebec. Speaking in the French language, Mr. Speaker 1-1elcomed the visitors.

I know all hon. members join me in welcoming these visiting students from Quebec and the Newfoundland students to the Rouse of Assembly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: St. John's liest. DR. KITCHEN: Hear, hear! The hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, I rise to support this petition and in doing so, I would like to follow along with the remarks of the former sp~aker that the case has been well made both by students in their petition and by the other remarks that have been made in the last four days in this Legislature,

June 30, 1978 Tape No, 5017 NM- 1 DR. KITCHEN: the case has been made and all it requires now is some action from the minister. Now I. would like very much for the minister I to get up in his place after I sit down and tell us what he is prepared "to do,and I will even tell him what he can say, because we have made suggestion after suggestion after suggestion as to how students can be helped to go to university at less cost to themselves than is presently the case. We have indicated that there is fat in the Education Budget that can be pared and I will help them pare the fat in the Education Budget.

I know there is fat there. I used I . ' ' to be Minister of Education and there is fat in the budget, and it can be pared. There is fat in the post secondary budget that can be pared and I will help them pare it. We will go down through it together, item by item,and I will show them how to do it. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! · DR. KITCHEN: And we will find money for students. We made suggestions hore yesterday that we might look at the interest rates that students have to pay and see when the loan has to be repaid and see if we can work on it from that angle.

Now also there is the income tax angle that people have to pay. That can be looked after during the repayment stages. But what has to be done. is that there has to be some will, Mr. Speaker, on the other side of the House to do something about these very earnest pleas and petitions from all over the Province with respect to education and particularly now on this question of post-secondary education and the cost to the ordinary Newfoundlander and the ordinary Labradorian ·of going to post-secondary.education. Now I believe it can be done: It can be done.

Perhaps what the minister might do, and I hope he gets up now in a minute and say he will do this, do one of two things; set up either a whole sweeping enquiry into education, a sort of royal commission which has been suggested on this side of the House, and that

June 30, 1978 Tape No. 5017 NM- 2 DR. KITCHEN: has to be done. That will not report immediately but that has to be done. It is a long range thing. But more immediately I believe he can set up a small committee of this Legislature and I for one would volunteer, if that is the procedure, to serve with him on that committee and there is another Minister of Educa·tion former, the member for St. J.ohn's North (Mr. J. Carter) over ·there. He has great ideas. He might .have a few bingo games or something. We might get this thing going and I believe Your Honour was a former Minister of Education.

Perhaps the four of us could be a committee, and other hon. members as well, or a small committee which would zero in on this particular problem of the plight of the university students and then we could do something about that and bring back the report to this Legislature ·in the Fall sitting, if there is to be a Fall sitting, and get on with the job. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HOUSE: of the petition SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. HOUSE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear! The hon. Minister of· Education. Mr.

Speaker, I wish to speak in support Hear, hear! - in support of the petition and the principle of the petition and the pink oaper that was·pr~sented by the students and also the ~resident's Task Force Report reaarding student aid. I want to preface what I have to sav~ it seems that we are getting some conflicting debate, and it is debate· in a lot of caRes, from the other side. One person is saving that we have a lot of fat in Educ11tion that can be pared off and the other group is ·SilVinsr we are not getting enousrh.

We are also getting conflicting statements I think in terms of the fact that during my estimates it ws recommended bv sMie members on the o.ther side that we close the School of Educatinn in Memorial. Now incidentally I might add, Mr. Speaker, that one of the reasons for student population being down is basically because of the fact that. there is now an over supply of teachers. Because when

June 30, 1978 Tape No. 5017 NM- 3 MR. HOUSE: we had the hill:h peak of students in the university, basically the largest group of theAe students were teachers. I want to point out that we will be meeting as a government with the univeristy people regarding the :university costs,and another thina I want to say there is if we have been sockina it to Education, the budget that we have in the university this year, when it is hitting close.to $50 million I do not think that is sockina it much to Education. I want to point out, Mr. Speaker, too that a lot of the points brou2ht out in this President's Task Force that relates to the Department of Education in this Province, a lot

_/ Jurte 30, 19 78 Tape 5018 m~- 1 l!R. W. HOUSE: of that work has been donejit is ongoing yearly. But with regard to basic exemtions, what exemptions the students can be given, that is a federal/provincial committee that decides on that and we do certainly agree,for instance,with that $800 being deducted first but of course ~~e cannot get the student loan on that basis because we have to fit in with the standard across Canada. But yesterday people were saying MR. S. NEARY: You are not going to give them support. 111\.

W, HOUSE: I am saying_ that we are supporting because we are doing a lot of the work that '~as recommended by the students in this particular brief. m .. S. NEARY: HR. W. HOUSE: HR. S. NEARY: Mt. l·L HOUSE: fact that I know it is true. AN no;~. !!ill-'EER: HR. SPF..Ai:'ER _;_ HR. tv. HOUSE: No, you are not. A lot of it is being done. I '~ant to - That is-not true. Hr. Speaker, it is true because of the Not true. Order, please! Order, please! Yesterday -there ~-1ere some statements u-ade about the other provinces giving the grant first and the loan last. Now ~r.

Speaker, that is absolutely wrong and I l·!R, SH1MONS: }!R, SPEAKER: l·:R. SIM:~ONS: A point of order, t':r. Speaker. A point of order. There he goes again, ~~r. Speaker; debate every since he has been on his feet about three minutes ago. He takes a sentence that somebody is alleged to ha:ve said and then he refutes it. l-!ow in my language that is debate, !lr. Speaker, that is .clear debate, He is not addressing himself to the material allegations in the petition. He said rat~er lukewarmly he supports it1 and then every sentence he says after contradicts himself.

H?. is obviously against the petition, that is one issue ,but the issue on '~hich I rise is that the gentleman is now debating. I wane, I ''ould love to have a debate vith the

June 30, 1978 ':'ape 5018 -DH- 2 ~!"R. S U!MONS : Minister of Education on this one, if he Hould persua4e his government to allow us to have a debate on education lvhich they will not do up until now. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR •. Sllll-!ONS: But the petition period, l1r. Speaker, is not the period to engage in a debate or to get up and pretend to support a petition which you are against.And either he should support the petition, Mr. Speaker, at the very least he should not enter into a debate at this particular time. SOl-IE HON. ME!fllERS: !IR. PECKFORD: t1R. SPEAKER: ~!R. PECKFORD: MR. W.N. ROl~: MR.

PECKFORD : Hear, hear! To that point of order, l-1r. Speaker._ Hon. thinister. You know this - Do not bun~le this one now. - is !!eally a foolish. exercise, Mr. Speaker.

I have here this morning sat in my seat and listened to han. menbers opposite,almost all of whom supported and got np. and spoke on the petition,and thought I was being reasonable in not gett_ing up on points of order ,which ~~ere perhaps very technical points of order, as they related to debate on the petitions as I have on other days,to have the relaxed comfortable atmosphere as has pervaded .the session this morning: to allow members to get up and have a fairly,free-wheeling,_debate on this petition.

And now as the Minister of Education gets up to try to respond to some of the comments made directly to him and about our post­ secondary programmes,to try to respond to that in five minutes 1and now he· has very little left•I think it is heing totally unfair and if one ,.,ants to be technical,sure,the hon. member might be correct,but I do not think he is living up to the spirit of the debate that has been engendered here this morning. }ffi.. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

Certainly our rules in· my opini~n probably need refinement httt they are there and I have to· apply ther-~ as they are,and our precedents, are there. My mm inclination is to give the benefit of the doubt in "favour of freedom of sr>eech l·There

June 30, 19 78 Ta.,e 5018 DW - 3 ;-!R. SPEAKER: there is an area of doubt and that is as operative the han. minister as it has been to other han. gentlemen In my opinion the tone of his remarks is substantially similar to that of other han. members who have spoken and he would have the right to continue. !Ion." minister. ~!R. HOUSE : l~r. Speaker,! was just going to point out that in Newfoundland if we go ahead with what we have planned this year we will be asking students to borrow ~1,400 and of course thev will be eligible for up to $2,000 if they are si~gle and in complete I need.

And for married students it 'will be $2,500. In Prince Edward Is.iand,for instance, they have to borrow the first $1,800 for the year, and then they get a grant $1,000 and the other Haritime Provinces are similar. AN HON. MEMBER: Not true. c·!R. W .N •. ROWE: Are you for or .against? :1F. • HOUSE : Hr. Speaker,the other point I wanted to make is that we have been continously working ·with the Federal Government, all the provinces. A."' HON ,_ HEMBER: What about B.C~ iiR. HOUSE: I am not talking about B.C. I am talking about our equals. AN !!ON. MEl'ffiEit: What about Alberta? ~IR. HOUSE: Alberta!

The other provinces~we have been working with the Federal Government because they do not give anything to students except interest for a period of three or four years. They do not give anything,and what we have been asking them to do is to look at the total cost of university student education and to ahare it with the provinces But their answer is this~ that we give a loan-

June 30, 1978 Tape 5019 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: . What are you saying? You are not going to (inaudible). MR. PECKFORD: Keep qui~e ann let the man speak. MR. HOUSE: I said that we will be looking at this brief in conjunction with the meeting we are having-with the University officials. MR. NEARY: MR. HOUSE: across the way. SOME HON.· MEMBERS: MR: SPEAKER: SOME HON: MEMBERS: MR .. SPEAKER: MR. PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER: MR. FLIGHT: When? Mr. Speaker, 1 am being intimidated from Oh, oh! I must point out_ that the hen. gentleman's time has ~ired. Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! The hen. gentleman's time_has expired.

They do not want to listen, you know. The hen. the member for Windsor-Buchans. Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a new petition so if there are any -more people who wish to support the - MR. HOUSE: MR. FLIGHT: to the minister. MR. STRACHAN: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. FLIGHT: will Table the (inaudible), will yield to the minister. What was that? What? 'Graham' go ahead. will yield Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a new petition signed by only nineteen people. The prayer of the petition is for presentation to the House of AssemblY, is, ''We the undersianed do herehy pretest the high insurance rates for mobile homes:' No~t. Mr.

Speaker, although the petition is only signed bv nineteen people it is the total number of mobile homeowners in this particular mobile home court. But I suspect it represents thousands of Newfoundlanders, Mr. Speaker, who are living in and have bought this past four or five years since mobile home living has become a way of life and represents thousands of Newfoundlanders who are getting victimized by the high cost of insurance. The cost of fire insurance on a mobile home in Newfoundland today is three to four times more than the cost of insurance on regular residential housing. And, Mr. Speaker, they are

June 30, 1978 Tape 5019 PK - 2 Mr. Flight: getting victimized or ripped off one or two ways. Now there are two reasons:either the manufactures of mobile homes are manufacturing the homes to such a low standard that the cost of insurance is legitimate because of the structure of the trailer or the design of the trailer that the risk of fire and the risk of a total loss is so great that the insurance company must indeed have high rates·,or else the insurance company is just making a bonanza and victimizing and ripping off the people who are living in mobile homes. And, Mr. Speaker, whatever the cause the.

Department of Consumer Affairs have badly let down the .people of this Province in this area. SOME'HON: 'MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR: FLIGHT: If the fault lies with the. manufacturers of trailers, then it is the responsibility of Consumer Affairs to disallow trailers· that are so substantial , and that will cost the people who buy them in this Province - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. FLIGHT: -those kind of rates,they should be stopped comin~ into this Province MR. MURPHY: MR: FLIGHT: MR. MURPHY: MR. FLIGHT: this Province. Hear, hear! - and, Mr.

Soeaker - (Inaudible) the federal (inaudible). - it is the responsibility of Consumer Affairs in There is no doubt that some mobile homes are designed ·to a higher standard, and thereby require lower rates, It should be the responsibility of Consumer Affairs to list~publicly announce and advertise the homes that come closest to the standards required for decent or cheap insurance rates, rates that can be afforded by the people of Newfoundland. And, Mr.

Speaker, if it is not,and that may indeed be so, but there is a great danger that the insurance companies are taking advantage of every trick in the book and just unilaterally charging the people of this Province $400 and $500 more on an insurance policy on a mobile home than in a residential. And Consumer Affairs should investigate that aspect of insurance in this Province. It would be interesting, Mr. Speaker, if the Minister of Consumer Affairs could tell us in this House today how many mobile homes have been destroyed by

June 30, 1978 Tape 5019 PK - 3 Mr. Flight: fire in this Province over this past year. Now with insurance rates anywhere from $300 or $400 per year,this petition alone nineteen petitioners represents an income to the insurance companies of $8,000. Now the maximum cost of a mobile home in this Province today is $20,000. And when you consider that the insurance company will only pay out a percentage of that face value of the policy it will be interesting to see what mobile homes in this Province fires have cost the insurance companies. And I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that the chances are that the insurance company is making a poodle regardless of whether the risk is there or not. The insurance comoanies are making a bundle of money off mobile homeowners in this Province today. And the people in the mobile home market are getting it both ways, Mr. Speaker. We have got into a position where you can buy a mobile home today cheaper than you can buy a lot of land to build a house on.

And with the high cost of land, the high cost of mortgages,most of our people, and particularly our young people cannot even visualize the possibility of ever owning a home. 'n they listen· to the advertising, they go to what is being billed

: ... .. June 30,1978 Tape Mo. 5020 AH-1 ~lR. FLIGHT: the perfect way of life,the mobile home,and they are buying them and they are being victimized, Hr. Speaker, they are being ripped off and Consumer Affairs in this Province whose chief responsibility it is to protect the consumer of this Province have.done nothing about it. The illinister of Consumer Affairs launched an enquiry into insurance into this ·Province a year ago, set up a board and we have not heard a word since, no report has been tabled.

It was suppose to be wide ranging, covering ·automobile insurance, mobile home insurance, fire insurance- not ·a word! They set up ·an inquiry and that was suppose to take care of it. And, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Consumer Affairs and the Department of Consumer Affairs is badly letting down the people of .this Provine~ that that department exists to protect. Sir, I support the petition. ~lR. SPEAKER: Hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.W. ROWE: I rise to support the petition so ably presentee;!· by my friend from Windsor-Buchans «1r.Flight).

The fact that it is only signed by ninteen names should not, :;ir, :.e taken as an indication that it is not an important problem because it is for everybody who has purchased or ~ived in a mobile home. Hr. Speaker, why should the costs, the premiums for insurance on mobile homes be so disproportionately high compared to insurance on other homes_-stationary homes ,I suppose, is a way to describ·e them, and those,God knows,are high enough and getting too high for the average citizen today • whyshould they be·so high?

I do not want to cast any aspersions on the insurance industry, I would assume that that is competit:!.ve and that there is the normal competitive pressures obtain there as in most other areas, that they are trying to give the best rate they possibly can,although that may bear some investigatio~ and the minister of Co~sumer Affairs should investigate that aspect of that.

But if it is, as ~y non. friend has indicated, if·there is the possibility that mobile homes are more flamable, less able to resist destruction by fire or severe dacage by fire compared to the ordinary home, the ·stationary home, Sir, if that is the case then there is need for a fullfledged investigation by

June 30,1978 Tape No. 5020 AH-2 HR.W.ROWE: tae }linister of Consumer Affairs into this whole area. Now when my hon. friend \las speaking,the minister,wilo has now left the chamber for some reason or other~flicked out a statement to the effect,ask your federal member or something. I do hope the minister, Sir, who is now taking his brief case and leaving the chamber, I do hope, Sir, that the minister does not try to pass this responsibility on to the federal government as well. Then~ may be a federal responsibil~ty but he is responsible as our protector of Consumer Affairs here in this Province.

We know, Sir, he has given up trying to protect us as far as the environment is concerned, as far as the spray programme, 'the poisonous;-matacil spray programme is concerned. i!e will not even answer questions_in the House and he will not have anything to say about that. I hope, Sir, he has not given up on the other side, the Consumer Affairs protection side of his department.

Maybe he has, maybe he has grown tired • He has indicated that he is going to retire from the House, maybe he has given up all interest and concern with matters affecting the consumer of our Province as well as all matters concerning the -environment·, the protection of the -environment of our Province. I hope that is not so but I fear it is. If it is so I would ask other hon. ministers, colleagues of the minister, the Premier,·if he is within hearing distance, I believe he is back in the building today - HR. NEARY: . In the Province. MR.

W.ROWE: - in the Province,at least,for a short temporary visit to the Province. I would ask him, Sirl to have this matter investigated because if insurance rates and premiums are high for mobile homes compared to other homes there has to be a reason for it.

I am prepared to assume that insurance companies are doing the best they can, · I may be wrong in that assumption,but if my assumption is correct then it can only be because the mobile. homes themselves are less immune to destruction by fire and that in itself, inherent in that assumption, .Sir, is the corollary that human life may be in greater danger and certainly property damage is more likely !he case with the mobile homes. If that is so, Sir, it should be investigated and no mobile homes that are not up to good standards as far as fire protection

.. .. June 30,:..978 Tape No. 5020 i!R.W.ROWE: and lack of flamability is concerned, Sir, fire resistance in mobile homes, none of these homes should be permitted to go on the market. And I do ask the Minister.of Consumer Affairs to try

June 30, 1978 Tape 5021 EC - 1 HR. W. ROWE: to galvanize himself into some interest in protecting the consumers and look into this matter and come back with a report to this hon. H~use, Sir. I support wholeheartedly the petition presented so well and competently by my colleague, the member for Windsor- Buchans (Mr. Flight). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER: Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: The hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, I rise to support with real enthusiasm the petition presented by my hon. friend.

And the fact that there are nineteen names signed, as the hon. the Leader of the Opposition indicates, is all the more reason why members should address themselves to this petition, unless we are _going to fall into the trap that we will only support with real' enthusiasm very massive petitions that come before this House. You know, I mean, it is the weak in our society, the small, minority groups we have to concern ourselves with.

Now I am very, very sorry to say that in regard to mobile homes there is a sort of a snobbishness towards those who live in mobile homes that I find absolutely apalling,and I do not mean this merely as a diatribe against people in the House of Assembly; I mean,there are people I know who live in so-called permanent structures who feel that people who may live in a mobile home are sort of second class citizens. Now what kind of class elitism is this at all? And the fact is that mobile homes are misnamed, they are misleading.

They are not mobile really, because although they are transported on wheels to the s~te oftentimes, the fact is that these wheels are remo.ved. I have been in t.hem; I have friends in them, for example, who have a full basement

• June 30, 1978 MR. NOLAN: AN HON. MEMBER: Tape 5021 underneath - That is right. EC - 2 MR. NOLAN: - concrete structures, concrete walls. Also they h~ve guide wires and so. on if they do not have all that I have just referred to, so that they are safe from wind damage and so on. But we have to come to the very, very serious conclusion that those people who are living in mobile homes are living there oftentimes for pure economic reasons. I mean, what is wrong with people attempting to live within their means? This is what we are always shouting and bawling in heie,is it not?

And then they go and do it and we in our own high fashioned way feel that they are another group of citizens altogether. Now surely, I mean, it is foolish for me to even have to say it. A person or a family who live in a mobile home are as important as someone who lives on Rennies Mill Road,are they not? You would think so. Now there are enough mobile home owners in this Province right now to be a very· viable and very forceful political group if they would only come together under one heading.

I am afraid that in all too many instances amongst the public that they are split, the divide and conquer system,and they have very little strength as individuals or as small pocket groups. The nineteen people who are signing thii petition should be affiliated in some way - and my friend is familiar with what I am talking about - in a provincial organization without any great, massive bureaucratic caucus involved, to protect their rights. I am saying they are being discriminated against: My hon. fr~end knows what I am talking about.

There are thousands and hurtdreds of thousands of people throughout the world who are living in mobile homes, and I wish they would drop the name altogether,in fact,. because they are

.. .. June 30, 1978 MR. NOLAN: are permanent - AN HON. MEMBER: MR .. NOLAN: Tape 5021 EC - 3 not truly mobile homes, they Prefabricated. Prefabricated homes is perfectly ~orrect. And I believe that whatever weaknesses there may be in structural building and so on can be very easily remedied. But we should be advising people on these things. We are so used to saying 'no'. We have to help people. Now on the insurance there has to be a good,hard, close look at this situation.

In fact, I believe that nationally there sh·ould be, if the people in mobile homes in other provinces suffer the way the people in my Province are suffering, there should be a national group of mobil-e homeowners who, if necessary, will start their own insurance company. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. NOLAN: But for God's sake let us do something. And let us stop sweeping this problem aside. I have countless problems daily with people who live in mobile homes with one complaint or another.

In fact, I might say that in one particular case that I know about we succeeded through an official in the Depart-ment of Consumer Affairs in having one individual up before court and_we got it straightened out. But I am afraid that the people who live in mobile homes feel that they are a forgotten race, a foriotten class, that they are not worthy of .the attention of those who come to this House of Assembly or those who are elected to,govern •. They feel that the only time anyone ever knocks on their door - the politicians

. June 30, 1978 Tape No. 5022 NM- 1 MR. NOLAN: do not mind going up over the aluminum steps or whatever it is and knocking on the door at election time. But it is not just then that they need our help because then we are looking to them, it is now, And I am telling you now, Mr. Speaker, that this is a most serious and urgent matter. These people are under any inexorable, crushing economic situation and they are asking for help. They are asking for guidance. They are asking for concern and they are asking for assistance and they are asking for it ·now.

These nineteen people are important and they are only nineteen of thousands of our fellow Newfoundlanders who live in mobile homes, And I believe they are important and that is why I support the prayer of this petition. MR. SPEAKER (DR. J. COLLINS): The hon. member for S.t. John's West. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, just a few words from me on this. I want to say that in supporting this petition that there are a great many people in this Province who live in trailers or mobile homes or whatever you - prefabricated houses, whatever you wish to call them, and quite a large number.

In some districts of this Province there are hundreds of mobile homes. In other areas of the Province there are very few.

I do not know what the total population of people in.mobile homes might be, but it is very, very large.~ There are two things that we should keep in mind,I believe, that . they tend to occur in traditional areas of the Province where land is in short supply; where it is difficult to get a bit of land.people erect mobile homes, bring them in, and also in areas of rapid population growth, these two sections of the Province,really,and what has to be done in my view is that the Department of Housing, the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing has to take a broader look at this question and it should not just be left to the Department of Consumer Affairs.

The Department of Consumer Affairs may look after certain aspects of it, but this is. part of the housing policy that the

.• June 30, 1978 T ape No. 5022 NM - 2 DR. KITCHEN: Province does not have, and we should have a realistic housing policy. There are a great many things wrong with the housing policy, we do not want to get into that now,but this is part of the whole question of housing in this Province and it has to be looked at; the difficulty of getting houses, the difficulty of getting·land, the land speculation that is going on in this Province right now is part of this problem of housing that is related to mobile· homes.

There are people in this Province who are buying land for resale and they are doing it in various areas of the Province and in my view it is iltmoral and this is forcing people to get smaller pieces of land,where they can, and . erect houses, erect mobile homes. And this is part of the problem of higher insurance rates because people cannot afford to pay the excess rates. As I have been travelling around this Province 9 I suppose this is the one ques~ion that comes up over and over and over again.

Everbody who .lives in a mobile home either cannot get insurance or is paying far too much for it in their view,and I tend to share that view. But the problem is ~roader than insurance rates. The problem has to do with land speculation, with an inadequate housing policy and this is just ·anothe·r example of a government, Mr. Speaker, that is bankrupt of ideas and devoid of action. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (DR. J. COLLINS): The hon. member for Stephenville. MR. MCNEIL': Mr. Speaker, I rise just briefly to support the petition in regard to moible homes.

I have done a lot of work in the last couple of years, particularly in the Stephenville area, relating to the problem of mobile homes. From a manufacturers point of view,the manufacturer states that they cannot provide a saleable product that would be accepted by the people without increasing their :price substantially •. And the insurance people.on the other hand~state that the mobile home is substandard in the material that is put into the

" , ... June 30, 1978 Tape No •. 5022 NH- 3 HR. MCNEIL: home; for example, the electrical is substandard compared to an ordinary permanent dwelling, the material that is used in the house.is highly inflammable. And these .-many factors that the insurance companies say is an added risk costs the person who owns the home, cost him more for his monthly insurance. But, Mr. Speaker, either way the consumer pays because. if he does not pay more when he first originally purchases his mobile home ehe does over a period of years by paying high insurance.

And I think that this government, the minister in the Department of Consumer Affairs should take a stand. In our committee, especially in the Stephenville area we have set up a mobile home group and we have evaluated the reasons why the insurance company stated why the mobile homes were substandard. So we went through the whole gamut and actually, Mr. Speaker, the mobile home in itself is substandard to the permanent dwelling.

The areas that the insurance companies' rates for an area say like in Stephenville area, like a protected area, close to a fire protection area, the amount of.wind, we even went as far as to do an average of the amount of wind and as you - the wind resistence in a mobile home is over seventy-five·miles an hour and doing the wind factor on a yearly basis the area of Stephenville was below this, So the insurance company in this particular Stephenville area could not state that we die not have the proper protection, that the mobile home park was in a protective area but still many of the people had to pay

·'· ... June 30, 1978, Tape 5023, Page 1 -- apb MR. MCNEIL: high insurance rates and also make it worse. Some could not even. get insurance. So 1 Mr. Speaker, I think that the department should take a stand and if we cannot get the manufacturers to upgrade their product we should not allow it into our Pr.ovince. I think the minister has fallen down on his responsibility to protect the consumer of this Pr.ovince by allowing substandard mobile homes into this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. W.N.ROWE: Hear, hear: ORAL. QUESTIONS The hon. the.Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Premier, who I am glad to see is back in his place. No, he is not in his place;he is in the House Leader's place, Sir. MR. NEARY: Demoted. MR. W.N.ROWE: If the House Leader had been there last night we probably would not have seen such a bungled job. Or the Premier. The .poor old Acting House Leader bungled it last night for sure. Mr. Speaker, let me ask the Premier a question. It has to do with the Hinds Lake development, proposed development, and the contracts for the construction of that work and the calling of tenders thereon. Now, Mr.

Speaker, as is well know Collavino Brothers made a demonstrable error in their bid and then the government announced subsequently that Collavino Brothers would be allowed to retender along with everyone else in the Province or anyone else in the world, for that matter, on· the work at Hinds Lake. Now, Sir, my question to the · Premier is this, does he not think that in the face of very vigourous protests by the Canadian Construction Association and equally vigourous protests by the Newfoundland and Labrador Construction Association·· against this procedure being used, Mr. Speaker, does he not think that the

,. June 30, 1978, Tape 5023, Page 2 -- apb MR. W .N .ROWE: government sho~ld reconsider what it is doing .and in keeping with apparently normal procedures exclude Collavino Brothers from the retendering process ar..d allow the other tenderers to submit new bids? MR. SPEAKER: .. The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, two points as regards the Leader of the Opposition's question; First of all, as was pointed out when the reason for recalling was brought up, the $4.5 million differential is one that the taxpayers of this Province we felt should not have to pay if it was not necessary, Sir.

Secondly, if we were advised by the consultants, or Hydro were advised by the consultants that were drawing up the documents for tender and the procedure for tender, they advised Hydro to the effect· that this to them was normal. · This was the manner in which they had done it in other areas and in other places and for that reason the people who bid on the first contract were eligible to bid on the second. MR. W.N.ROWE: A supplementary,. Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: questioner. MR.

W.N.ROWE: A supplementary, the original Sir, would.not the Premier agree- I do not want to cost the taxpayers of this Province any additional money and I do not think anyone in the House does-but would not the Premier agree that in principle and in the long run the procedures which have been outlined publicly by the Canadian Construction Association and the Newfoundland and Labrador Construction Association, which are designed, as I understand it, to prevent a person from having a second go as the the Collavino Brothers will now have, Sir, presumably they will merely correct their error,'a demonstrable error, correct their error and get .the contract.

Now if that is permitted, if the procedures which the Premier is allowing are permitted, Sir, in the

.. June 30, 1978, Tape 5023, Page 3 -- ape MR. W.N.ROWE: the long run it will cost this Province additional money. Because in principle it is wrong to allow a construction company to correct an e·rror which it has made, Sir, and this has been time tested by the Construction Association of Canada and Newfoundland. As a matter of principle you should not allow that to happen. They should be excluded from further bids

.. <I June 30, 1978, Tape 5024, Page 1 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: and this will serve as a warning to future tenderers that they cannot make this kind of error and expect to be. given a break or a second chance; and.in the long haul and on principle it will save this Province a great deal of money if the recognized and established procedures of the Construction Association of Newfoundland and.Canada, which are designed to pr6tect the industry and no one contractor, if these procedures are· adhered to rather rigorously in this particular case and that the whole matter should be reconsidered. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, as I said in answering <") the first question, ·giving Collavino a second go, and I am certainly no supporter of Collavino as such at all, but the people from Hydro, the accountants and the legal people and the consultants went to the Collavino office unannounced to check on the error itself on the first bid and to their satisfaction - and they also have no axe to grind and I think all members will agree to that to their satisfaction the error made was a legitimate error • .

The practice has been that once that .error is made the person's bid bond is returned and .immediately thereafter it is given to the second lowest bidder. Now.in this particula~ instance here giving it to the second lowest bidder would' have cost an additional $4.5 million to the Province. That·, Sir, Hydro felt,_and we concur, that would be $4.5 million,once again as I said, of the taxpayers' money that this Province can ill-afford to pay if it does not have to.

The business that it will cost more in the long haul, I cannot see the reasoning behind that, Sir, because if we continue to get. the lowest tender in any methodology of bidding, obviously, the Province is going to

June 30, 1978, Tape 5024, Page 2 ;.._ apb PREMIER MOORES: save money ahd I do not see where in the long haul it is going to differentiate from that. Whilst the construction Association · say certain procedures are followed, I think, Sir, certain procedures are followed but with the amount of money that is involved, even after the error has been added back, we are still talking $4.5 million and that I would suggest, Sir, is most unusual anywhere in· the construction industry in Canada.

As I say, the consultants have advised us as to what they would recommend, the Hydro Board have followed through with that recommendation and we ., have accepted the recommendation of Hydro Board. MR. W.N.ROWE: A final supplementary on this, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the original questioner. MR. W.N.ROWE: If the - I am not recommending this.

I should stress this, Sir, I am not recommending this, but since the Premier and the government have taken a certain line of reasoning on this, Sir, would they not accomplish the same thing if Collavino Brothers' error is a demonstrable error and can be shown to be so, and can be proved to be so by, say, an independent third party of arbitrators, for that matter, would it not be a short cut and save everybody a lot of money if the government merely allowed them to correct their error and get the contract?

I am not recommending that because I think what we should do is adhere to the procedures laid down by the Canadian and Newfoundland Construction Association. I think that that keeps everyone honest and that in principle and in the long haul it will be beneficial to this Province if everyone is kept honest in that regard. But, Sir, if we are. going to follow the procedures outlined by the Premier why go through all the rigamarole again? What we are likely to get is merely a correction by Collavino Brothers of the $4.5 million

,. June 30, 1978, Tape 5024, Page 3 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: error, they will have been. given a second chance. Not only will they have been able to save their bid bond, which they could do because it was a demonstrable. error, but they would be. given a second chance which, I would submit, is not usually accorded in such circumstances. They will add their $4.5 million on to it, they will get the contract, presumably, and they will have merely corrected their error.

Now, what I say to the Premier, and I am not recommending ·it, but if he is going to follow these procedures, why go through the.rigarnarole, why not just lest them add on their $4.5 million,. correct their error and give them the contract, save everyone trouble? Do through the front door what the government is trying to do through the back door. MR •. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES : Mr. Speaker, that is absolutely incorrect of course and that would be a blatant disregard for proced~res if that were done. If you took that situation- the fact is now'that all the others have an opportunity to bid

• • June 30, 1978 Tape 5025 EC - 1 PREMIER MOORES and if they have the same efficiency to do the job they have the same opportunity to get the job. The fact is, Sir, it has been rebidded to gi~e the others a chance and to do otherwise, as the Leader of the Opposition suggested be done, would be totally flying in the face of the Tender Act.Just to add on that ,, amount for Collavino, as I said, would be a blatant disregard for the whole procedure.

It is the sort of thing that I sUppose can be twisted in such a way as to make it look appealing, but the fact is, Sir, the bidding system under the tendering Act will give us the best price for that particular job. ~1R. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: It is a two part supplementary, actually, to the Premier. It is obvious now that the recalling of tenders which Hydro intends to do will delay the project, will interfere with the

schedule of the project of the Hinds Lake development. Can the Premier t*ll the· House just to what extent it will delay the start up of the Hinds Lake project! i would like to have dates. Hydro was using August 1st .originally. So what are we looking at now? Are we looking at September lst, October 1st? I would 1ike to have that date. I will let the Premier answer that question and I have one more supplementary, Sir. l1R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER MOORES: We are advised by Hydro, Mr.Speaker, that August 1st is still the date tha~ can be met as far as the timing of the project is concerned, that the project itself whilst. the tender was let will be delayed obviously for three or four weeks, the fact is that the project itself will not be delayed. It was precalled to cover that sort of eventuality, Sir,

June 30, 1978 Tape 5025 EC - 2 HR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. l>IR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR •. FLIGHT: Would the Premier indicate to the House if for the purpose of the Hinds Lake project is the local company, in this case, Lundrigans, eligible for or will the 10 per ~ent preferential treatment apply to Lundrigans on this project? Because we are talking about $2.5 million on a $25 million contract,and adding on their $4.5 million that could bring Collavino vety ~ close to Lundrigan. And in this ~articular case Lundrigan was the second lowest bidder.

So it would be interesting and very, very important as to the final out~ome of the letting of this tender if Lundrigan is indeed entitled to the 10 per cent preferential treatment that we allow local contractors. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, first of all, it was Lundrigans- Loran, and Loran was certainly not a local company any more than Collavino is, and certainly not as much, I would suggest. And most of the companies that bid - MR. FLIGHT: Not as much. PREMIER MOORES: Loran Corporation is not. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!· MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER MOORES: No, not at all. Far from it. Quite the reverse. '."': .. MR. SIMMONS: We went out of our way. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER .MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the man has a problem. The fact is, Sir, that any contractor who gets the job is going to have to employ local workers. In a straight bid

June 30, 1978 Tape SU25 EC - 3 PREMIER MOORES: the government po~~cy has been 10 per cent for local companies and that remains the government's policy. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR •. SPEAKER: I will hear a final supplementary from the hon. gentleman from Windsor - Buchans and then I believe the bon. the member for LaPoile is on a supplementary as well. The other hon. gentlemen ate on different questions. MR. FLIGHT: This is a very, very straightforward ques~ion, Mr. Speaker. It only requires a 'yes' or 'nor answer.

Is Lundrigan, for the purpose of bidding on the Hinds Lake project, going to receive the 10 per cent preferential treatment that we allow contractors in this Province? AN HON. MEMBER: Lundrigan - Loran. MR. FLIGHT: Right. Is Lundrigan -Loran going to be treated as a local. company on the Hinds Lake project and therefore have the 10 per cent pr~ferential treatment provided?- 'yes' or 'no'. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: That is right. I do not think there is any question about that. One of the remarks that was made across the House by the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) regarding this government being against Lundrigans, the fact is, Sir, that this government not only are not against Lundrigans, but irisisted with the federal government because they were a local company that they get the arterial road when they were not the lowest bidder. That is where we stood as far as Lundrigans and local companies are concerned, and to say otherwise is absolutely misleading the House and the public of this Province. MR. SPEAKER: A s~pplementary, the hon. the member for LaPoile.

June 30, 1978 Tape 5025 EC - 4 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. the Premier indicate in the retendering if there has been any additional work included in the tendering? Have the specifications in any way been changed? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister of Mines and Energy, who is more familiar with the ~etail of that to answer. ~IR. SPEAKER: and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: ~he hon. the Minister of Mines Yes, Mr. Speaker, there has been some change in the design in order to allow recalling.

Now we will include some other temporary access roads that have to be built that are ready to go into the new tendering call, so that we are not talking about essentially the same sets of plans and specifications as we had in the original tender, which therefore, of course, means that in retendering we are including all the people who bid the first time around because the design plans and specifications are not exactly the same. SOME HON ;· MEMBERS: . Oh, oh!

.•. June 30, 1978 Tape 5026 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, now that we have learned, Sir, that it is oracti ca lly a new. tender ca 11, in the answer the Premier gave th~;~ a few moments ago, why does the government in the interest of saving taxpayer dollars, why do the government now not go to public tendering again instead of restricting the tendering to the group who tendered originally? Why not open it up again and go to public tenders if the Premier is so interested in saving taxpayers dollars? Because this is the way to do it,- MR: PECKFORO: Mr.

Speaker, it is a very - MR. NEARY: - competition alone. There will be savage competition and there will be a savings to the taxpayer. So why does not the government take that route? MR: PECKFORO: There is, Mr. Speaker., now going to be savage competition as it relates to that second tender, this tender call, this retendering. And for the hon. member's edification,if he does not know, and obviously he either does not know or he deliberatley indicates his ignorance, and that is that all the work on Hinds Lake, and especially on 05 and 06 contracts, went through a pre-qualification period.

And the five contractors who are bidding and who will now bid again on the new tender are the ones who were pre-qualified to bid. That we went through a whole process because· tliere are hardly any either companies around, there is none in Newfoundland, 'AN HON. MEMBER: . MR. PECKFORO: Collavino (inaudible) • - and hardly any in the Mainland of Canada who ~1ere, number one, interested or, number two,if they ~1ere interested went through the pre-qualification period.

So if we went through the whole process all over again we would be down with the same number of companies who are now bidding again on the new contract. MR; NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR: 'NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. the member for LaPoile. Could the minister now tell us, Sir, in the light of the new information that we have, and new work being included in the· tendering and so forth, what is the anticipated start up date of the Hinds

June 30, 1978 Tape 5026 PK - 2 MR .. NEARY: Lake development now? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: We have already answered that question, the hon. the Premier has in.a previous question, and that is we are talking about August 1. And we are also saying and·indicating now that we believe that the whole

schedule for .Hinds Lake will not be seriously disrupted and that the on date of power will still remain the same. The hon. the member for Lewisporte. MR. SPEAKER: .MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Premier; it is a district question and a rather serious one, and it is not going to take much time to get it answered.

For a couple of weeks I have been attempting on behalf of a large delegation in my district from the Lewisporte Chamber of Commerce, the Lewisporte Council, and the Comfort Cove-Newstead Council and the Campbellton Council to set up an appointment with the PremiP.r for a rlelegation from this ·group, I went through the regular channels, Mr. Speaker, through Mrs. Nugent,whom I know very well, and through Mr. Callahan,whom I know very well, and I have not been able to set up this appointment. Last night there was a meeting in the area and 300 people _agreed that they would charter buses to come into St.

John's to sit on the Confederation Building steps to wait for the Premier. So I am asking him now - . MR: SIMMONS: They will be waiting a long time . MR: WHITE: -·if he will agree, Mr. Speaker, in all seriousness, without all those people coming in,to ha~e a meeting some time next week with a delegation from that area? MR: ·sPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. · 'PREMIER.MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, the day before yesterday when was in Grand Falls I met the Mayor of Embree and other peop1e from the hon. member's district, and certain.ly I am only too glad to meet with delegations when they come in as long as ~1e know in advance what the subject is so the ministers who can be of meaningful,direct benefit and their officials can be present at that·same time.

June 30, 1978 MR. WHITE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ~IHITE: Tape 5026 P.K - 3 A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member for Lewisporte. Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could get some direction from the Premier with respect to setting up this meeting for next week? I wonder if he could tell me who I should go see because I did tell him in my original question that I spoke to Mrs. Nugent about three weeks ~ago and Mr. Callahan in the interim. So what would he advise me to do to set up ·this meeting? MR. ·sPEAKER: The hon. the Premier . .

PREMIER MOORES: I suggest that he would call me in the office and set it up at that time, Sir, rather than·do it here. MR. CANNING: Mr. Speaker. MR; SPEAKER: The hon.•the member for Burin-Placentia West followed by the hon. gentleman for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. ·cANNING: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the hon. the Premier. My question is based on a letter sent to the Premier by the Town Council of Marystown on June 4, 1978. According to the letter, Mr.

Speaker, the Premier promised that Council in 1975 when they recalled ().. t.R~ contract for·the first phase of water- a project for Little Bay, a part ·of their town of Marystown - and at that tilll!il, so the letter states,he promised them that that· issue would be given top priority in Newfoundland when water and sewer is being considered in the future. And this year they have been turneo down on the request, and they asked the Premier if he would reconsider His decision

.. June 30, 1978 Tape No. 5027 N!1 - 1 MR. CANNING: Has the Premier reconsidered his deciRion or his he going to finance the second phase of the water for that part of Marystown? MR:. SPEAKER: The han, Premier • PREMIER MOORES: I wiil have to take notice of the question,·Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I have a number of supplementaries for the }aniRter of Manpower and Industrial Relations. He was not in his place yesterday durin~ Question Period and again today. I udderstand he is in the building. I understand he is within a few feet of the House.

I wonder could he come in so we could ask him some questions which are pressing and which ate immediate, which require some immediate answers. Certainly we would delay for a minute if he would come into the House. I understand he is in the Government Common Room, or he was about five minutes ago. If not, Mr •. Speaker, his colleague, the Minister of Industrial Development would probably answer some questions until we are able to get the Minister of Manpower into the House where he can answer some questions. I do -have some questions for the Minister of Industrial_ Development as well. They relate Mr.

Speaker, to matters which_I raised here in the House yesterday in response to a question I put to the minister. He made some reference to a list;he said that indeed he had drawn up a list and he had consulted a number of people concernine drawing up that list. I wonder now would the minister indicate to the HouAe, Mr. Speaker, and of course I am referring to the list of preferred electrical and mechancial contractors that we have heard so much about in the Public Accounts Committee and now the enquiry before Mr.

Mahoney, I wonder could the minister indicate ·whether at any time he consulted the Premier as to what names should be on those lists?

i '"' June 30, 1978 Tape No. 5027 NM- 2 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial Development. DR. FARRELL: Your Honour, in answer to the question, I presume I will be at that enquiry and at that time I will have - as.much as I can remember, the people came to me as far as the lists are concerned, I will be glad to give it at that time. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.. SIMMONS : Would the minister indicate