Alberta Hansard — 4 May 1982, Afternoon sitting (14:30) (Legislature 19, Session 4)

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Alberta — Debates (Hansard)

May 4, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 921 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Tuesday, May 4, 1982 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 p.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 33 Appropriation Act, 1982 MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I request leave to introduce Bill 33, the Appropriation Act, 1982. This being a money Bill, His Honour the Honourable the Lieutenant-Governor, having been informed of the con tents of the Bill, recommends the same to the Assembly. [Leave granted; Bill 33 read a first time] MR. HYNDMAN: Mr.

Speaker, before I request leave to introduce the supplementary appropriation Bill, I'd like to ask unanimous leave of the Assembly to introduce that Bill, notwithstanding the lack of the one day's notice in the rules. HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Bill 41 Appropriation (Supplementary Supply) Act, 1982 MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I request leave to intro duce Bill 41, the Appropriation (Supplementary Supply) Act, 1982.

This being a money Bill, His Honour the Honourable the Lieutenant-Governor, having been in formed of the contents of the Bill, recommends the same to the Assembly. [Leave granted; Bill 41 read a first time] Bill 241 Small Business Development Corporation Act MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce Bill No. 241, the Small Business Development Corpora tion Act. The purpose of this Bill is to establish a mechanism to provide a significant injection of equity funding for Al berta's small businesses at a time when debt financing is extremely costly, due to high interest rates.

Based upon similar legislation in place in the province of Ontario, the Bill will provide investment vehicles through which gov ernment, without direct involvement in small business, can provide to Albertans financial incentives to invest in small businesses in Alberta. [Leave granted; Bill 241 read a first time] Bill 247

An Act to Amend the Amusements Act MR. MACK: Mr. Speaker, I request leave to introduce Bill No. 247,

An Act to Amend the Amusements Act. The main thrust of this Bill is to provide an apprentice ship program for all cinematograph operators in the province of Alberta. [Leave granted; Bill 247 read a first time] head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to table with the Assembly the 1982 edition of Programs for Senior Citizens. MR. MOORE: Mr.

Speaker, several days ago, in discuss ing the matter of emergency planning as it affected the governments of Canada and Alberta, I indicated that I would file with the Assembly copies of correspondence between me and the federal minister responsible for emergency planning, the Hon. Yvon Pinard. I have now received permission from Mr. Pinard for filing with the Assembly correspondence he had directed to me. I'd like to file four letters at this time, two from me to Mr. Pinard and two in reply. MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to file copies of the response to orders for returns 138 and 148. MR. McCRAE: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to file a return to Motion for a Return No. 150. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, this afternoon I would like to introduce to you and to members of the Assembly some 18 grades 5 and 6 students from the Sunset House school in the constituency of Smoky River. They are accompanied by their bus driver Emil Petryshyn, parents Ann Martfeld and Linda Lang, and their teacher Rob Pool, who is also the principal of the school and presi dent of the Smoky River Progressive Conservative asso ciation.

They're seated in the members gallery, and I ask that they rise and be recognized by the Assembly. MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to introduce to you three guests who are seated in your gallery today. Before I do, I'd like to tell a very short story, which is a very happy one, connected with our guests. I think it will particularly please the Member for Clover Bar. Mr. Speaker, the guests in your gallery are all graduat ing students of the 1982 dentistry class at the University of Alberta.

Last year, during the International Year of Disabled Persons, they got a $2,000 grant from the government, because they wanted to undertake a class project which would give something to the people of Alberta in return for the education they had received at the university. The three people are here today. They've written their last exam. Tomorrow, at the Youville hospi tal, they are presenting the results of their labor. It's a very heart-warming story. They organized a raffle, a trip to Las Vegas and, notwithstanding all the red tape involved, Mr. Attorney General, they managed to have a casino.

As students, working part time over a

922 ALBERTA HANSARD May 4, 1982 period of two years, they raised $27,817.16. [applause] As students, they went out and bought a complete mobile dental X-ray unit and two portable dental set-ups, with all the equipment especially designed for bedside use. This equipment is being given tomorrow, one to the Youville pavilion for the elderly at the General hospital and the other to the Rosecrest home for disabled chil dren. I think it's a very heart-warming achievement. Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to introduce the three representa tives of the class who are here today: Donna Wood, the society chairman; Neville Headley, the society vice- chairman; and Brian Pisesky, president of the graduating class. Please give them a warm welcome. MR. HARLE: Mr. Speaker, it's my pleasure today to introduce to you and to members of the Assembly a group of 30 grade 6 students from Castor elementary in my constituency. Accompanied by two teachers, two parents, and a bus driver, they're in the public gallery. I ask them to rise and receive the welcome of the Assembly. MR. HIEBERT: Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to introduce to you and to members of the Assembly 21 students from St. Bede school in the Edmonton Gold Bar constituency. In fact the school is within the shadows of the old Gold Bar farm. Accompanied by teacher Mrs. Bahry and parents Mrs. Townsend, Mrs. Schultz, Mrs. Topilnicki, and Mrs. Falkenberg, they are in the members gallery. I ask them to rise and receive the welcome of the Assembly. MR. ISLEY: Mr.

Speaker, it's my pleasure today to introduce to you, and through you to members of the House, three residents of the town of Cold Lake, who are associated with the John Neil hospital board. By the way, as an aside, the town of Cold Lake is located on the prettiest, deepest, coldest lake in Alberta. It's a lake I keep inviting you to, to fish in the summertime and ski on Kinosoo Ridge in the wintertime. Seated in the members gallery are hospital board members Mrs. Marg Walsh and Mr. Richard Welsh, and administrator Mr. Alvin Edstrom. I ask that they stand and receive the welcome of the House. MR. BATIUK: Mr.

Speaker, it is with pleasure that I introduce to you, and through you to Members of the Legislative Assembly, 25 grade 6 students from Ryley school in my constituency. Accompanied by teacher Mrs. Pepper, Mrs. Wiasnes, and Mrs. Nahirniak, they are seated in the members gallery. I ask that they rise and receive the welcome of the Assembly. Mr. Speaker, while I'm on my feet, I'd also like to introduce a person who has played a very important role and has spent most of his life as a professional educator and as principal of Vegreville Composite high school.

Upon his recent retirement, he chose to serve in local government, and at present he is chairman of the board of education of the county of Minburn, representing the town of Vegreville. Mr. Harry Chomik is seated in the public gallery, and I ask that he rise and receive the welcome. MR. D. ANDERSON: Mr. Speaker, today it's my pleas ure to introduce to you and to members of the Assembly 32 students from the St. Leo elementary school in my constituency. They are accompanied by principal Mr. Jim Walters and by Mr. Keith Walters, Mr. Stan Ondrik, Mrs. Donna Broshko, Mrs. Irma Portmann, and Mrs. Gwen Boutet.

Before asking these students and the people accom panying them to stand, I would like to apologize for not being able to meet with them earlier today. As I men tioned to their principal, I'd be more than happy to receive any calls from them, on questions they might have that I could answer about the goings-on in the Assembly today. I'd ask all these students and the people with them in the public gallery to stand and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Economic Resurgence Program MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr.

Speaker, my question to the Premier, in light of this potentially being the last day of the spring session, is with regard to the economic resur gence program of the government. I wonder if the Pre mier could indicate whether a

schedule is established at this point in time, as to when more announcements with regard to that program will be made available to the general public. MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned in mid-March, when the matter was raised with me, it will occur over a period of six to nine months. We've already had the April 13 announcements with regard to the Alberta oil and gas activity program, and subsequent announcements regarding the farm fuel distribution al lowance and the new arrangements regarding truckers. I can't give the hon.

Leader of the Opposition any sched ule, except to say that they will involve a series of announcements over a period of six to nine months. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques tion to the Premier, relative to the moneys that were going to be made available to the Alsands project: the $3.5 billion in terms of equity, and some $6 billion in terms of guaranteed loans. Would the government's in tention now be to divert that funding to other programs for the people of Alberta, such as toward mortgage rates and interest rates for small businesses and farmers? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr.

Speaker, certainly a number of those considerations are being assessed, and will be over the course of the recess. I couldn't give any definitive information, except to say that it really is a matter of evaluating the program needs through the General Re venue Fund requirements of the government, as distin guished from the Heritage Savings Trust Fund, which involves the question of investments. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques tion. At the present time, various regions in our province are suffering greater economic downturns than others.

For example, I believe Grande Prairie and Cold Lake are suffering significantly; and Edmonton and certain groups of businesses. Would the intention of the Premier and the government be to divert funds, or design specific pro grams, for those regions that may need more assistance than others? MR. LOUGHEED: Again, Mr. Speaker, I wouldn't rule out that possibility, but that's not the probable approach. It would appear that programs being considered and

May 4, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 923 options being assessed would be of a general nature, recognizing that the economic factors involved are preva lent throughout not only Canada but the world. They're clearly prevalent throughout the province. In the sense of the particular example referred to by the hon. Leader of the Opposition, as I mentioned in pre vious answers in the Legislature, the key with regard to the conventional gas exploration industry is obviously the question of markets. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary ques tion with regard to the April 13 announcement by the Premier, in terms of the Alberta oil and gas activity program. On page 5 of that announcement, there's an indication that there would be some immediate activity in the oil and gas industry, in terms of servicing; as well, the intention that there would be an acceleration of the search for new conventional oil reserves, or rig activity. As well, I note that at the same time indicators — and this is from Oil Week — are that oil rig activity has diminished in terms of drilling. As of April 12, 124 rigs were actively drilling.

On May 3, the indication is that there are 54 rigs; it has decreased significantly. At the same time, downed rigs have gone from 259 to 330. I wonder if the Premier or the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources could indicate what factors are caus ing that, and whether the program announced April 13 has impacted on that segment of the oil and gas industry at this time. MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I'll refer the question to the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources. MR. LEITCH: Mr.

Speaker, at the time of the spring break-up, which occurs at different times in different years in Alberta, there is always a dramatic drop-off in drilling. No doubt that will play a very major role in the numbers the hon. Leader of the Opposition just referred to. With respect to the April 13 announcement impacting on industry activity, we certainly didn't contemplate that that impact would be within weeks, in the sense of in creased drilling activity occurring within weeks that would not otherwise have occurred.

Obviously the indus try requires time to reassess its position which, from the cash flow point of view, was very substantially improved by the announcement of April 13, then make decisions as to what ought to be done as a result of that improved cash flow and as a result of improved netbacks on production that may be obtained in the future. It's going to take a little while for that to be done by the industry and to be reflected in increased drilling activity. MR. KESLER: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Could the hon. minister indicate if a study is being done, indicating the number of rigs that would be working once the announced resurgence program takes effect? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I don't have any numbers that I can give the hon. member today. Of course, we would need to gather information from the Energy Re sources Conservation Board, with respect to approvals from the industry associations respecting levels of activi ty. I don't have any precise numbers I can give members of the Assembly today. MR. MANDEVILLE: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minister of Energy and Natural Re sources.

There was some discussion of establishing a large gas bank to take care of some of our surplus gas, the 10,000 capped wells. Has the government given any con sideration to establishing a gas bank, or to using some of the heritage trust fund money to buy up this gas in the ground? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, the government of Alberta, in partnership with the industry, has embarked on a study with respect to a natural gas storage facility.

I use the word "facility" to distinguish it from a bank, because a natural gas bank carries with it the implication that the natural gas would simply be purchased as reserves in the ground. In the storage facility, we're contemplating pro duction and, following production, having it stored in an underground reservoir. So there's a somewhat different concept. That study is going on. We certainly will very carefully consider the results of the study. But I should draw to the attention of Members of the Legislative Assembly the remarks by the hon.

Premier with respect to that, at the time of making the April 13 announcement. In essence, the remarks were to the effect that while we would still want to consider the results of that study, in light of the major increase in the industry's cash flow involved in the April 13 announcement, we have to keep in mind that before we could proceed with a natural gas storage facility, we would have to be satisfied that it was economically beneficial to the people of Alber ta. Now there are ways in which it may be, because the existence of such a facility might increase the volume of natural gas available for exports.

There may be a way to provide the United States' peak marketing requirements from storage facilities. Those are possibilities. The short answer to the hon. member's question is that that study is ongoing. We will carefully review the results, but we don't feel we'll be able to take any action in that area unless we can be satisfied that doing so would be to the economic benefit of the people of Alberta. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question, if I may. Is the minister in a position to give the Assembly some indication as to the time frame of the study, and an idea of the completion date? MR.

LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I can't be definitive about a completion date. We're hoping to at least get a prelimi nary report in the near future. But it may be that arising from that preliminary report, there would need to be additional studies of a technical or economic nature. For our part, we're moving it forward as rapidly as we can. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. The minister said, "in the near future".

Presuming we have a fall session of the House, does this mean before the fall session of the House, in time to meet the deadline of six to nine months with respect to other elements of the economic resurgence program? What does "near future" mean? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I would add some definition to the phrase "near future" by saying that I expect the report within the next few months. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques tion. In an earlier answer, the Premier indicated that one of the stimulants to our economic recovery would certain ly be gas markets.

I wonder if the Premier could indicate what actions by the Premier's office or ministers will

924 ALBERTA HANSARD May 4, 1982 follow, in terms of specifics, in the next few weeks follow ing the closure of this spring session? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I'd primarily refer the hon. Leader of the Opposition to the document entitled Appendix III, which was attached to the Alberta oil and gas activity plan of April 13. It involves working in co-operation with the industry on a number of different approaches.

Obviously we will await with considerable interest the report of the National Energy Board as a result of their recent hearings, at which time submissions were made on behalf of the government of Alberta, through the chair man of the Alberta Petroleum Marketing Commission. During the summer there will be a series of meetings with the industry, involving both me and the minister.

It's our view that the most desirable approach with regard to natural gas marketing, as stated in the appendix to the April 13 statement, is for the Alberta government to be a catalyst, to try to have parties working together with regard to this, and that the industry should take, and wants to take, a role in which they're very actively involved. In answering, I could just mention that one of the specifics recently involved was the meeting I held with the United States ambassador to Canada, followed by what I thought was his very encouraging address to the business community of Calgary, subsequent to our visit.

MR. KESLER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Could the hon. Minister of Energy and Natural Re sources indicate to the Assembly whether there's ongoing monitoring of the collapse of the junior oil companies in the province of Alberta? As conditions worsen and the industry continues to deteriorate, is the minister's de partment considering alternative actions, so we don't lose that vital industry in this province? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is surely aware of the very major steps this government took to assist the small companies in the Alberta oil and natural gas industry.

We took a major step in October 1981, by increasing the royalty tax credit program, which flows primarily to the small companies and is essentially a royalty reduction based on the volume of their produc tion of oil and natural gas. That was substantially in creased again in the announcement of April 13, 1982. Certainly I've had a number of discussions and meetings with all segments of the oil and natural gas industry, including the small companies within the industry. We appreciate their contribution to industry activity and to the development of oil and natural gas reserves within this province.

I think our recognition of their special circumstances has been fully demonstrated in a number of the programs aimed essentially at the smaller company segment of that industry. MR. KESLER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. I'm not questioning the programs that have been out lined. Is the minister's department continuing to monitor the breakdown in the industry? And does the minister have contingency programs in place, if it continues to erode? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, we certainly continue to meet with and discuss the problems of all segments of the industry.

I think discussion of an earlier topic in this question period is very key for the small companies; that is, the question of increased markets for Alberta natural gas. Many of the smaller companies were in the natural gas area and have a problem because of the lack of markets. Certainly we are directing our efforts, in a very intensive way, towards increasing markets for Alberta natural gas. Petrochemical Development MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my second question is to the Minister of Economic Development, with regard to petrochemical plants.

Earlier in the session, on March 30, the minister indicated that 13 petrochemical plants were on stream and were proceeding. I wonder if the minister could indicate what type of capital will be further in vested in the petrochemical industry, say in this year and the next couple of years. Is it optimistic? What projec tions does the government have at this time? MR. PLANCHE: Mr. Speaker, I think the most appro priate way to answer the question is to say that there have been no cancellations of any of the projects outlined in the March 30 remarks the member referred to.

It's true that some deferrals, over months and not years, have been announced. I presume that that's while the major companies involved reassess their international positions in terms of their finances. But there have been no cancellations. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, could the minister indicate what kinds of studies the government is doing with regard to demand for petrochemical products, not only in Canada but on the world market? MR. PLANCHE: Mr. Speaker, in a formal sense, we haven't done studies of the market place for petrochemi cals.

It's our belief that the people who put forward risk dollars understand better than we do where they may market their product. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques tion with regard to the growth of the petrochemical industry in 1982. The minister has indicated that there certainly are projects delayed, and we could enumerate those. What factors are necessary in 1982, or into 1983, to stimulate those plants to come back on stream and be functioning or totally constructive? MR. PLANCHE: I guess there are two or three key factors, Mr. Speaker.

The first is that there is a down ward pressure on the price of ethylene in the markets that are competitive with Joffre. That's primarily due to the interest rates causing a lack of demand for things made out of ethylene, like rugs, carpets, furniture coverings, and car interiors. The second issue, which is something we may be able to do something about, is the federal government's natur al gas and gas liquids excise tax, which is fairly dramatic ally affecting the price of ethylene in a tight, competitive market.

We have made representations to the federal government to consider easing that tax on natural gas that's going to be upgraded into product for export, and we'll continue to push that. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques tion. Could the minister indicate whether any other plants are being put on hold or delayed at this time? I under

May 4, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 925 stand that six or seven have made that decision. Are more plants considering that alternative at the moment? MR. PLANCHE: Mr. Speaker, it's pretty hard for me to come off "are there more", because I haven't indicated which there were. The fact is that without giving a precise answer, which probably more appropriately belongs on the Order Paper, a great many of the projects that were contemplated in the March 30 remarks are going ahead. So if a precise response is required on a project basis, I'd have to respond at a different time. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary ques tion. Could the minister indicate whether the Alberta Energy Company is considering playing a larger role in the development of a petrochemical industry than at present? MR. PLANCHE: Mr. Speaker, it isn't the function of this department to ask people what role they're going to play in the future. We try to do primarily two things. One is to encourage all companies from outside Canada, and indeed from other parts of Canada, to locate here.

And through tax and infrastructure, we try to structure an environment where they can profit through risk, and aid and abet their marketing efforts in any way that's appropriate. Lawyers' Trust Funds MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Attorney General is in regard to the legal battle going on between the people of Carseland and the Law Society in what I call the Petrasuk affair. Could the minister inform the Assembly if he is prepared to amend the Legal Profession Act to guarantee that the people of Alberta are protected when moneys are placed in trust with lawyers in the province of Alberta? MR.

CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, as far as legislation can handle such matters, I'm sure all hon. members would wish that full protection be given. However, the hon. member speaks of the "Petrasuk affair", as he called it. It is a very complicated matter involving, as hon. members know, the admitted commission of certain crimes. That being the case, I don't think it's possible to frame laws where one could assure that they would avail and provide fairness, despite the inclination of some people to commit crimes.

I don't know if the hon. member has a supplementary on what might be a more practical matter, but I've given some thought to the issue, because he raised it before. On an informal and without-prejudice basis, I think it would be appropriate for me to be in touch with the Law Society in respect of that, because of the widespread nature of the hardship. I say again, though, that it is not clear whether any assurance can be given that any legisla tive Act could resolve such problems. MR. CLARK: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Some of the home-owners involved have now received from the mortgage companies orders nisi, I believe is the legal term, which allow a maximum of six months before foreclosure is proceeded with. In view of that, could the minister assure the Assembly that the home-owners in Carseland who, through no fault of their own, are now in danger of losing their homes and life savings, will not be foreclosed on? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, there is nothing I can do in respect of existing legal proceedings. MR. CLARK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Could the minister inform the Assembly if there will be any assist ance with the legal fees of the home-owners in Carseland, in their battle with the Law Society and defending their homes? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I hadn't directed my mind to the question of legal fees. My concern would be if there is some area which should not, or need not, be solely settled by resort to the courts; that is, if the Law Society has pending some consideration of the possibility of settling some of the claims relative to the Petrasuk affair, and that has not yet been concluded.

I have no objection to seeking that type of information and in an informal way, as I indicated, trying to learn whether or not there is some way in which the interests of all those people can be advanced. But in regard to interfering, if that's the right word, or indeed becoming involved in legal proceedings, or saying to some citizens and not to others that legal fees would be paid for them, that is something I can't do. For those who find the legal fees an extraordinary burden in defending such actions, for all I know it may be that some would qualify for legal aid. MR. CLARK: A final supplementary, Mr.

Speaker. In view of the fact that the Law Society has really failed to provide adequate safeguards and funds to protect the people in this situation, would the minister be prepared to ask for a public inquiry into the trust funds of the Law Society of Alberta? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I think one of the things the hon. member is saying to me is that in all respects Mr. Petrasuk acted as a barrister and solicitor in these matters, and not as a land developer. I'm not aware that that's the case. He is certainly a well-known citizen, and he was known to be in the development business.

Not having checked into the specific legal proceedings, it may be that what is really at issue is a mixed matter, partly of legal trust funds and partly of other activities, representa tions, and misdemeanors, if that's the right word, that the gentleman in question may have committed. Railway Crossing Accidents DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, my question to the hon. Minister of Transportation has to do with the coroner's inquest into the death of a young man who drove under a train switching across a secondary road in the Fort Saskatchewan area.

I believe the minister has been doing an assessment on fatalities that have occurred at uncon trolled railroad crossings in the province. Can the minis ter indicate if that study is still going ahead, and when there will be some termination of that report? MR. KROEGER: Mr. Speaker, it is still going ahead and, at the same time, we're also working with the federal department. I can't give a time when it will be complete. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, can the minister indicate what progress his department and the federal Minister of Transport are making in the program of putting reflec- torized tape on rolling stock?

Is any progress being made in that direction?

926 ALBERTA HANSARD May 4, 1982 MR. KROEGER: Mr. Speaker, I have to take that ques tion as notice. I know we're working on it, but I can't give a definitive answer. Extra Billing by Doctors MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct this ques tion to the hon. Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care, with respect to the extent of extra billing by medical practitioners in the province.

In light of the most recent statistics the department has compiled, showing 58.4 per cent of physicians in Calgary extra billing, 43.13 per cent in Edmonton, and 34.5 per cent in other locations, is the minister in a position to advise the Assembly whether a decision on this matter will be made in the next short period of time? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, two things may influence that. Many times I've said that on the advice of the department, I'm waiting until I get the first-quarter statis tics.

So February and March will give us a pretty clear answer of what the established trend is going to be since the imposition of the new fee schedule. At that time, I would like to discuss the matter again with our caucus. At the end of the month, we as provincial ministers will also be meeting with the federal minister, to establish the federal government's attitude toward this. Based on those two things, plus our ongoing monitoring, we'll then be in a position to consider what future moves we ought to take. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister.

What particular review is being made of the statistics with respect to specialists, where the inci dence of extra billing is much higher than general practi tioners, ranging as high as 91 per cent, in view of the absence of choice, where you have virtual extra billing across the board in some fields? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, we're concerned about two things insofar as groups are concerned. Number one: is there a community in Alberta where all doctors are extra billing as a matter of practice? Secondly: are there specialty groups throughout the province carrying it out as a general practice?

The figures show that that trend is developing. So that's something that will have to be watched very carefully. But more important — and I've said this before and want to stress it — is the incidence of procedures that are extra billed and the extra billing amounts that are in volved. So far, notwithstanding the fact that nearly half the doctors in the province are extra billing, less than 10 per cent of the procedures are being extra billed. So you can see that doctors are apparently doing it very infre quently, notwithstanding that they are categorized as extra billing.

We're monitoring that combination of sta tistics very closely. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. What process is the department using to monitor categories of people, in particular the extra bill ing of senior citizens? Has any consideration been given to the issue of limiting extra billing to other than senior citizens? MR. RUSSELL: That's a matter of professional conduct, which I've discussed at some length with the College of Physicians and Surgeons. They take a very dim view of any of their members extra billing senior citizens or persons on a limited income.

Those of you who heard the newscast today heard their ruling with respect to their members, insofar as persons in emergency wards of hos pitals are concerned. So we have two things: the statistical monitoring being carried on by the department, and the professional con duct aspect of it, as well as the appeal route being carried out by the College of Physicians and Surgeons. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

Is the minister in a position to supply the Assembly with any statistics with respect to the number of appeals of extra bills and the frequency of the appeals being upheld by the committee on extra billing? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, yes, I do have that infor mation. I believe I tabled a report during the fall session. Until the end of March, so it represents 15 months of operation of the assessment committee, they've received a total of 132 complaints. Of the 73 dealt with to date, the recommendations in 30 cases were that the extra bill be cancelled or refunded. In 13 cases, it was felt to be justi fied.

A decision was delayed in four cases because of incomplete information. In another 23 cases, as a result of the complaint being lodged, the doctor voluntarily refunded all or part of the extra bill. A half-dozen others fall into categories of further investigation or some reason the complaint couldn't have a decision rendered. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. The minister indicated that the health ministers were meeting toward the end of this month.

In light of the government not making a decision until the first quarterly reports are in, what proposals, if any, will the government of Alberta be making with respect to this issue, in view of the likelihood that it will be one of the major items on the agenda? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, the last time the provinces met with the federal minister, we were united, except for the province of Saskatchewan, in our attitude toward extra billing and medicare fees. I have to assume that since then, the position of Saskatchewan has changed. So I'm looking forward to an interesting meeting. [interjections] MR.

NOTLEY: I think that's fair. Anything's fair on the last day of the Legislature. A supplementary question to the minister. MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the last supplementary on this topic. MR. NOTLEY: Notwithstanding the results of the unfor tunate election a few days ago in the neighboring prov ince to the east, could the minister be a little more specific on what proposals this government is going to make on this particular issue of extra billing, when the ministers meet at the end of the month? MR. RUSSELL: Mr.

Speaker, unless something unex pected comes up, we'll be maintaining the position we've always taken: we support the concept of health care premiums, we recognize the doctors' right to extra bill, we recognize the necessity of allowing a safety valve by way of assessment or appeal, and we're certainly opposed

May 4, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 927 to the direction of the federal government insofar as state medicine is concerned. Labor Dispute — Public Health Nurses MR. KESLER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Labour. Could the hon. minister indicate what action is currently being taken with regard to the lockout of public health nurses by nine health units? Has the minister been in contact with either party, or has he intervened in the dispute in any way since the lockout began? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, to respond to the hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury.

First of all, I have had contact with both parties, but before the lockout began, not since it began. Secondly, the action the government is taking is to keep a mediator on standby. Meetings were held on Friday morning with the mediator and the repre sentatives bargaining on behalf of each group. They knew the mediator's phone number over the weekend. Late yesterday, there was a meeting involving one health unit that was caught up in the lockout. The mediator went to that meeting, which I understand proceeded until about 4 a.m. MR. KESLER: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Could the hon. minister indicate if it is still a policy of this government to use disputes inquiry boards prior to strikes or lockouts? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, that tool is available in certain types of disputes, but it is certainly not one which is automatically used in any particular dispute or lockout. It would be a matter of opinion, but my personal judgment is that it lends itself well to certain types of disputes and is not so effective for other types. MR. KESLER: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Could the hon. minister indicate if the government is currently considering ordering the health units to take the nurses back to work? MR. YOUNG: No. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. In light of the action taken in the nurses' strike, is the minister in a position to advise the Assembly how long the government is going to allow this lockout to drag on before taking some action? What specific consideration has been given by the government to the UNA proposal for voluntary binding arbitration? MR. YOUNG: Mr.

Speaker, in collective bargaining, the ability always exists for parties to resort to voluntary binding arbitration at any time. It exists now; the parties could voluntarily agree to do that. It is virtually always a recommendation made by mediators, for the considera tion of the parties, in every dispute which reaches an impasse. It is virtually always rejected by one or both parties involved in an impasse. That's the situation in this particular dispute. Mr. Speaker, if I may have slight latitude.

With regard to the dispute, as it happens we are talking about nine separate disputes, which are co-ordinated on one hand by the Health Unit Association and, on the other hand, all the nurses involved are members of the United Nurses of Alberta. But for legal purposes, to the best of my infor mation, nine different collective agreements would be concluded in the resolution of this particular group of disputes. It is quite possible for the nurses employed by a particular health unit and the board of that health unit to negotiate directly to conclude a collective agreement, should they wish to do so. MRS.

FYFE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister advise what a nurse should do if she wishes to return to work during the lockout? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, nurses who wish to return to work should consult their fellow nurses, to determine whether that is the wish of the total group or a majority of the group. If so, they should enter into discussions with the local health unit board.

By the same token, if a board member of a health unit is not in agreement with the lockout, that board member should contact other board members to reassess their positions, because they too can negotiate directly with the local nurses. MR. KESLER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Is the hon. Minister of Social Services and Community Health currently monitoring, in any systematic fashion, the quality of health services being provided to Albertans in those areas where the lockout is occurring? MR. BOGLE: Yes we are, Mr. Speaker.

A daily report is coming in, with particular emphasis on the home care program administered by the various health units across the province. MR. KESLER: One further supplementary. Could the hon. Minister of Labour indicate whether at this time there are reviews of contracts of other professionals work ing in the health units, to avoid further lockouts and strikes in the months to come, as those contracts come due? MR. YOUNG: If I understood correctly, Mr. Speaker, the question related to other types of employees in the health units.

Inasmuch as they are organized, the De partment of Labour has a computer print-out which is examined monthly to determine which disputes may occur in the future quarter. To that extent, these things would be checked. But in terms of the health units, apart from the possible involvement of the Canadian Union of Public Employees in some and local associations of nurses in others, I don't believe there would be any other groups of employees. Mr. Speaker, if I could just add to an earlier response I gave.

It should be clear that the health unit boards are composed of persons appointed or elected by local gov ernments. To that extent, the local governments and health unit boards should be responsive to the matters in dispute and to the local nurses. The proper place to take any concerns either party may have would be within the local community, and to relate to one another at that level. MRS. CRIPPS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Did I understand the minister correctly, that there are nine health units and nine separate agreements involved, and they could be negotiated separately? MR. YOUNG: Mr.

Speaker, that is correct. My informa tion is that there are nine health units. Although all nurses are members of the United Nurses of Alberta, they

928 ALBERTA HANSARD May 4, 1982 are separate collective agreements. They could be nego tiated at different times, with different content, and voted upon quite independently. MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, I might supplement the in formation provided by my hon. colleague by indicating that there are 18 other health units and local boards of health in the province.

One is in the middle of a two-year contract at this time, eight others are currently negotiat ing, two have settled and have contracts which have been ratified by the representatives of the nurses and the boards, and seven other health units have not yet opened their negotiations. So one-third of the health units in the province are affected by the lockout, and two-thirds are in one of those other categories I've just described. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Social Services and Community Health, given his advice with respect to local responsibili ty.

Is the minister in a position to supply the Assembly with the figures used, in the compilation of the estimates, for labour costs for funding health units? Were those figures approximately in the 11 or 12 per cent range? MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, the figures for our depart ment were the same as for other departments, following the government guidelines of 11 per cent. DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Would the Minister of Social Services and Community Health confirm that the public health care provided by the health units is not causing citizens any serious difficulties to date?

Is this being evaluated on an ongoing basis? MR. SPEAKER: May I suggest that the first part of the question just be considered a representation. MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, I believe I responded to the hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury, indicating that we are monitoring the situation daily, and special attention is being given to the co-ordinated home care program. Metrication MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Attorney General.

Can the he advise the Assembly whether he has had an opportunity to review the circum stances of the case of the federal government prosecution of one Zoritza Kasparian, owner of a carpet company in the city of Calgary, and whether the Attorney General is giving active consideration to intervening on behalf of the people of the province of Alberta on the basis that the federal legislation is ultra vires the new Constitution Act, being in breach of the fundamental freedom of expression? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I won't be able to direct a response to the precise grounds upon which the hon. member has raised a question. I have gained some information without acquiring, I'm sure, all the facts. My understanding is that in that case the accused is a corpo ration, of which the person mentioned by the hon. member is no doubt a principal member. The complaint was prepared and filed by an inspector of the federal weights and measures branch in respect of some alleged events in 1981. Of course the prosecution is in the hands of federal authorities. Mr.

Speaker, as an agency of potential prosecution of such an offence, we have no status. It is solely a federal matter. As to whether some intervention can be made, I think that is a possibility. It's under very active considera tion at the present time. MR. ZAOZIRNY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the Attorney General indicate when a final deci sion will be made on this matter? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I cannot give a precise estimate, but since the matter does not come to trial until August, I think some little bit of time is available to work on it; probably something like the next two to four weeks. MR.

PAYNE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the Attorney General indicate to the House today what range of alternatives is under consideration by his department? MR. CRAWFORD: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: We've slightly exceeded the allotted time for the question period, but if the House would agree, two hon. ministers would like to deal further with some points raised in previous question periods. HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Suncor — Safety Orders MR. DIACHUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Further to the questions raised by the hon.

Member for Spirit River- Fairview respecting occupational health and safety mat ters at Suncor, I would like to provide some of the following answers for the benefit of all members of the Assembly and to be recorded in Hansard. With reference to the April 16 Hansard, entitled "Sun cor — Safety Orders", officials have been investigating this problem for several weeks. On February 26, 1982, an order was issued requiring corrective action and immedi ate protection of workers undertaking repairs to boilers in the powerhouse.

Several subsequent inspections indi cated that the provisions of the order are being complied with, and the repairs are proceeding satisfactorily. Until repairs are complete, workers will be required to wear personal protective equipment. I'm assured that the chem ical hazards regulations are now being complied with. To ensure continued compliance with the regulations, the company has provided an accurate monitoring device to measure sulphur dioxide in areas where leaks might occur. Suncor — Working Conditions MR. DIACHUK: In Hansard of April 20, entitled "Sun cor — Working Conditions".

I ask the indulgence of the Assembly, Mr. Speaker. The response is a little more lengthy, but I think it is required. It's with respect to the exposure of Catalytic employees to asbestos at the Sun cor site on April 12 and 13, and subsequent dismissal of 10 pipefitters on April 15. I would like to inform the House that work being carried out on April 12 and 13 did not relate to condi tions in which the asbestos regulations would apply. A small amount of asbestos may have been disturbed by the work in progress, but the exposure would not constitute a health hazard.

On April 14, an insulator was brought in to work specifically with the pipe lagged with asbestos.

May 4, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 929 On this day, the 10 pipefitters on the day shift and the insulator were informed by the company with respect to the hazards associated with asbestos, and provided with respirators which met the requirements of the asbestos regulation. The pipefitters on this day shift refused to wear the protective equipment provided and refused to enter the site prior to removal of all asbestos.

The following day, April 15, Catalytic offered to have the day shift pipefitters completely suited up for asbestos removal, with respirators exceeding the standard required by the asbestos regulation as well as disposable coveralls, rubber boots, rubber gloves, and eye protection. The day shift pipefitters refused to work, although at no time were they requested or expected to remove any asbestos them selves. This work was being done by the insulator. There fore, at this point, the workers were dismissed on the grounds that the protective equipment supplied was ade quate.

My officials in the occupational hygiene branch confirmed this by telephone with the Catalytic safety offi cer on April 14, the job steward on April 15, and with one of the pipefitters on April 16. The workers' action cannot be considered as constitut ing work refusal under

Section 27 of the Occupational Health and Safety Act. This was confirmed by an investi gation carried out on-site by the officials on April 21, 1982. While pipefitters on the day shift were refusing to work, pipefitters on the evening shift did work, using the protective equipment supplied by Catalytic and approved by the officials. On April 19 the job was completed in a safe manner, using appropriate personal protective equipment. Mr.

Speaker, one more item with regard to the sample of liquid the hon. member presented to me — I did share that that didn't provide the courtesy to the rest of the members of the Assembly — dated April 22, "Suncor Plant — Working Conditions". In response to a number of questions respecting the handling of PCBs at Suncor, I have confirmed that a small leak of transformer fluid in the Suncor top shop, sometimes referred to as truck shop, was reported to the occupational health and safety offi cers in Fort McMurray in early December 1981. This was the first such leak in this area to be reported to my officials.

Following an inspection from the occupational branch, both transformers in the top shop were diked and access to the area limited by locking the doors. The janitor kept a key but was advised not to clean up any leakage without proper supervision. All transformers containing PCB at the Suncor site, including those in the top shop, have been provided with warning signs, as per the Canadian Environmental Con taminants Act and regulations of 1977. Warning signs have been posted on the transformer for several years.

As an additional precaution, additional signs were posted around the rooms following the December leak. The fluid provided by the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview did contain PCBs. We're trying to deter mine the extent. However, in view of the fact that his office wishes to retain in confidence who took the sam ples, I have been assured by his office that the samples were recently taken from one of the transformers in the truck shop at Suncor. The two transformers were being checked today, and samples were going to be analysed in an attempt to match the liquids. With regard to the former caretaker, Mr.

Speaker, this is also being investigated. The doctor in McMurray had been in consultation with the hygiene branch. His condi tion is being evaluated also. The matter was brought to our attention as early as late last fall. Aircraft Purchases — Job Opportunities MR. PLANCHE: Thanks for your indulgence, Mr. Speaker. I want to correct a response I gave yesterday to the Member for Spirit River-Fairview. When he asked about offsets, I indicated that a Calgary company had won a contract to supply material to de Havilland.

I should have said that the Calgary company is still a contender to win that contract with de Havilland. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, this afternoon I may occasionally ask hon. members to deal with the matter of overall House business in the sense of seeking unanimous consent to advance certain Bills. At the present time, I would begin by asking hon. members to give unanimous leave for second reading of the two appropriation Acts, Bills 33 and 41, notwithstanding that they were read a first time only today. MR. SPEAKER: The Assembly agrees? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: It is so ordered. MR.

HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, with respect to the ques tions and motions for returns standing on the Order Paper, I advise the Assembly that the government is prepared to accept motions 131, 132, and 133. I move that questions 127 and 128, and motions for returns 120 and 121, stand and retain their places on the Order Paper. [Motion carried] head: MOTIONS FOR RETURNS 131. Mr. Notley moved that an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing the preliminary report of the Minis ter of Transportation's Advisory Committee on Urban Transportation Requirements for Edmonton and Calgary. [Motion carried] 132. Mr.

Notley moved that an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing the final report of the Minister of Transportation's Advisory Committee on Urban Trans portation Requirements for Edmonton and Calgary. [Motion carried] 133. Mr.

Notley moved that an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing all costs, appropriately itemized, incurred by the Minister of Transportation's Advisory Committee on Urban Transportation Requirements for Edmonton and Calgary during the course of that commit tee's investigation of various urban transportation sys tems, and during the course of that committee's prepara tion of its preliminary and, if completed, final reports. [Motion carried]

930 ALBERTA HANSARD May 4, 1982 head:GOVERNMENT DESIGNATED BUSINESS head: GOVERNMENT BILLS AND ORDERS (Second Reading) Bill 42 Metis Betterment Act Restoration Act MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated on first reading, Bill No. 42, the Metis Betterment Act Restora tion Act, is the result of the revision in the statutes that occurs every 10 years.

Having altered some wording in the Metis Betterment Act, it was the view of the Attorney General and his staff that that alteration followed the normal procedure of reviewing language in legislation and updating it in terms of today, but not changing the meaning or the intent of this legislation. In the case we have before us, the Federation of Metis Settlements in Alberta has launched an action against the government of Alberta in connection with land claims.

After consulting their legal counsel, it was their belief that as a result of the amendments made to the revised statute, there may have been some changes in the Act that would have changed the outcome of the action presently before the courts. To make it absolutely certain that there was no intent by the Legislature or by the government to undermine that particular process, this Bill is designed to change the Act to exactly the same form it was in prior to the Revised Statutes of Alberta 1980 being reviewed. There is one slight exception to that.

The portions of the Act dealing with amendments to the Department of Municipal Affairs Act were previously in the Property Tax Reduction Act.

Because the Property Tax Reduction Act was repealed, if you like, on implementation of the Revised Statutes of Alberta 1980, the exact provisions were put into the Department of Municipal Affairs Act, so that over the course of the next while, I might have the ability to continue to provide municipal debt reduction funds which are being held in trust for the Metis settle ments whenever they require them. [Motion carried; Bill 42 read a second time] Bill 43 Trust Companies Amendment Act, 1982 MR. KOZIAK: Mr.

Speaker, in terms of significance, the most important amendments to the Trust Companies Act contained in Bill 43 are probably those sections dealing with the pool trust funds. By the addition of the provi sions dealing with pool trust funds, to a certain degree we are codifying existing policy that applies to trust fund companies as they pool the funds of various interests in order to invest these for the benefit of the owners of the funds.

Quite often this is used in such areas as registered retirement savings plans, registered home ownership sav ings plans, and what was known as the wrap-around annuity before changes to the Income Tax Act. We are basically codifying the existing practice. A number of other sections deal with the trust company industry in order to make current the practices, in legislation and regulations, to an ever-changing world in the financial field.

With those few brief remarks, I ask that all members support second reading of Bill 43, the Trust Companies Amendment Act, 1982, which I now move. [Motion carried; Bill 43 read a second time] Bill 33 Appropriation Act, 1982 MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I move second reading of Bill No. 33, the Appropriation Act, 1982. [Motion carried; Bill 33 read a second time] Bill 41 Appropriation (Supplementary Supply) Act, 1982 MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I move second reading of Bill 41, the Appropriation (Supplementary Supply) Act, 1982. [Motion carried; Bill 41 read a second time] MR. CRAWFORD: Mr.

Speaker, hon. members have already given consent in regard to Bills 33 and 41, but in order not to be half safe, before going into committee to consider those and other Bills, I would ask hon. members to give their consent to the committee process while we're still in the House. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Assembly agree with the motion by the hon. Government House Leader? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: GOVERNMENT BILLS AND ORDERS (Committee of the Whole) [Mr. Purdy in the Chair] MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Committee of the Whole will please come to order. Bill 18 Land Titles Amendment Act, 1982 MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Are there any questions, comments, or amendments to be offered with respect to any

section of this Act? There is an amendment to Bill 18. Are there any questions on the amendment? [Motion on amendment carried] [Title and

preamble agreed to] MR. KNAAK: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 18 be reported. [Motion carried] Bill 19 Oil and Gas Conservation Amendment Act, 1982 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Are there any questions, comments, or amendments to be offered with respect to any

section of this Act?

May 4, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 931 [Title and

preamble agreed to] MR. LEITCH: Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill 19 be reported. [Motion carried] Bill 20 Coal Conservation Amendment Act, 1982 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Are there any questions, comments, or amendments to be offered with respect to any